2014 04-03Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission April 3. 2014
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of April 3, 2014, was called
to order at 6:00 p.m. by Chairman Joe Marshall.
Present: Chairman Joe Marshall, Commissioner Steven Yearsley, Commissioner
Patrick Oliver, and Commissioner Scott Freeman.
Members Absent: Commissioner Macy Miller.
Others Present: Machelle Hill, Ted Baird, Justin Lucas, Sonya Watters and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance:
Roll-call
X Scott Freeman Macy Miller
X Patrick Oliver X Steven Yearsley
X Joe Marshall -Chairman
Marshall: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to call to order the regularly
scheduled meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission for April 3rd, 2014, and I'd
like to ask to begin with roll, please.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda
Marshall: Thank you. All right. Next thing on the agenda tonight is the agenda. Did
anybody have anything new or any -- I have nothing for the agenda, so maybe I could
get a motion to adopt the agenda as it is.
Freeman: So moved.
Yearsley: Second.
Marshall: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as written. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed same sign? All right. That carries
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Item 3: Consent Agenda
A. Approve Minutes of March 20, 2014 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting
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April 3, 2014
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Marshall: Next is the Consent Agenda and we -- the only thing on the Consent Agenda
is the minutes of March 20th, 2014. Did anybody have any comments, amendments,
changes?
Yearsley: Mr. Chairman?
Marshall: Yes, Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: I would make a motion that we approve the Consent Agenda.
Freeman: Second.
Marshall: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda with no
modifications. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Marshall: Now we are onto the Action Items and before we get there I'd like to explain a
little bit how this process works. First things we will -- I will open each item one at a
time and ask for the staff report. The staff will tell us all about the project and how it
meets city code or doesn't, any of those issues on how it -- how the codes and
ordinances we have in effect and a little background on the project itself. Then I will ask
for the applicant to come up and address the Commission. They will have 15 minutes
to either address anything that the staff missed or anything they'd like to add and, then,
we will take public testimony. Each person will have three minutes for their say. So, I'm
going to ask you to be concise and succinct and try to get straight to the point, because
there is only three minutes. If there is anyone in the audience that is representing a
large group and that needs to be by show of hands, then, that person can have ten
minutes. But the people with their hands up give their time to that person. All right.
And, then, after that the applicant will have another opportunity to come up and address
any issues that may have come up. At that time we will, in all probability, close the
public hearing and deliberate and, hopefully, render an appropriate decision.
Item 4: Action Items
A. Public Hearing: PP 14-004 Biltmore Subdivision by L.C.
Development, Inc. Located South of W. Victory Road and West
of S. Meridian Road Request: Preliminary Plat Approval
Consisting of 159 Single Family Residential Building Lots and
Twelve (12) Common/Other Lots on 56.19 Acres of Land in an
R-4 Zoning District
Marshall: All right. So, I would like to start by opening public hearing on PP 14-004,
Biltmore Subdivision by LC Development and ask for the staff report, please.
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April 3, 2014
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Watters: Thank you, Chairman Marshall, Members of the Commission. The application
before you tonight is a request for a preliminary plat. This site consists of 56.19 acres of
land. It's currently zoned R-4 and is located south of West Victory Road and west of
South Meridian Road. Our map is a little behind here. You will note that it's not colored,
but the property has been recently annexed. Our map just hasn't caught up with it yet.
Adjacent land use and zoning. To the north is rural and urban residential properties.
Kentucky Ridge Estates, zoned RUT in Ada County and R-4. To the east are
residential properties in Meridian Heights, zoned R-4. To the south is agricultural
property zoned RUT in Ada County. And to the west is rural residential, agricultural
property zoned RUT in Ada County. This property was recently annexed with the
Victory South Category B annexation. As a provision of the declaration of consent to
annexation, this property is not allowed to receive development approval until such time
as the property owners and the city execute a development agreement. The applicant
is proposing a preliminary plat consisting of 159 single family residential buildings lots
and 12 common lots on 56.19 acres of land in an R-4 zoning district. The minimum lot
size as proposed is 8,640 square feet, with an average lot size of 11,020 square feet.
The gross density proposed is 2.83 dwelling units per acre, consistent with the low
density residential future land use map designation for this site. There is an existing
home on the property and it's -- if you can see my pointer here, it's located in phase two.
The applicant is requesting that it be allowed to remain until signature by the city
engineer on the final plat for the second phase of development. Access is proposed on
the plat via South Kentucky Way, a collector street from the north in Kentucky Ridge
Estates. From the east via South Carbondale Place, a local street in Meridian Heights
Subdivision and from the southeast via Harris Street, a collector street, which leads out
to Meridian Road here. Stub streets are proposed to the west and north for future
extension and interconnectivity. There is a phasing plan, if you can see there. It's a
little hard to read. Phase one is here in the upper right corner, followed by phase two,
phase three, phase four and phase five. Flip to this. It's a little easier to see. An
approximate 300 foot long section of the Williams Pipeline which is a natural gas
pipeline, crosses the southwest corner of the site. You can see within this common
area down here and it lies within a 75 foot wide easement. All development within this
area is required to comply with the Williams gas pipeline developer's handbook. An
encroachment permit is required for any development or improvements within the
pipeline easement. The Sundial Lateral runs off site along the west boundary of the
site. The applicant is proposing a 10.2 percent or 5.73 acres of qualified open space on
the site, consisting of a one and a half acre park, the large green area you see here. A
.2 acre pocket park and subsurface drainage areas. Pathways. Street buffers along
collector streets and parkways along local and collector streets in accord with UDC
standards. A tot lot with a play structure, a half basketball court and a segment of the
city's regional pathway system are proposed as amenities in accord with UDC
standards. And those will be in the central common area here. A regional pathway is
proposed along the southwest corner of the site within the pipeline easement. There
are a couple of blocks, four and five that you see right here, that exceed the maximum
block length standards. To mitigate the long blocks staff is recommending pedestrian
pathways are added centrally within these blocks as allowed by the UDC to provide a
more direct pedestrian access to the park. The applicant has submitted a couple of
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conceptual building elevations. Oops, I have two of the same here. I believe the
applicant has some of her presentation, too, she will show you. Written testimony has
been received from Becky McKay, the applicant's representative, in response to the
staff report and a letter of testimony has also been received from Mark and Christine
Freeman. Staff is recommending approval with conditions in the report, along with the
following modifications: At the applicant's request to modify Condition No. 1.1.1E to
allow the existing home in phase two to remain until signature on the second phase final
plat by the city engineer and modify number 1.1.8 to read: All ditches are required to be
piped in accord with UDC 11-31-6A, unless waived by City Council or used as a water
amenity or used as linear open space. Staff is also recommending a new condition be
added. The applicant shall be required to install a water main through the common lot
required for the micro pathway in the vicinity of Lot 9, Block 9, which will connect into
the water main required in the proposed Revolution Ridge Subdivision to the north and
that will be in this vicinity here. Staff will stand for any questions the Commission may
have.
Marshall: Commissioners? I do have a quick question. Now Public Works was
requesting a stub street to the north there at the northeast corner?
Watters: Yes.
Marshall: And that is -- is that going to require a modification to the development
agreement that -- as written in the staff report or is that a modification?
Watters: Chairman Marshall, I didn't mention that, because it's not currently a condition
in the staff report. Staff -has discussed this with the applicant. There is a water and
sewer easement that crosses within this common lot here at the northeast corner. Staff
is meeting with the applicant -- I believe it's next week to discuss this matter and
elevations in that area to determine if it's possible to put a street through there. If we
determine that it is and that that's what's going to happen, then, staff will ask the.
Commission -- excuse me -- the City Council to add that as a condition of approval
when we go forward, but --
Marshall: Okay. And, then, 1.1.1.8, you were asking for a waterway modification?
Watters: Chairman Marshall, the -- the change I'm requesting be made is in accord with
our city code, which is adding the rest of that city code.
Marshall: That ditches are --
Watters: The applicant was concerned that they may not be able to pipe the waterway
that is down here in the southeast -- or southwest corner.
Marshall: All right.
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Wafters: So, in the event they can't improve the ditches and waterway -- or amenity.
Excuse me.
Marshall: Thank you. Did anybody else have any questions?
Yearsley: Mr. Chairman?
Marshall: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: I have one question. In the staff report it talks about needing two pressure
zones. Can you -- will phase one be able to be built within that lower pressure zone or
do you know?
Waters: I'm sorry, I do not know. The applicant may be able to address that. I know
that Bruce Freckleton has been in conversation with the applicant on that.
Yearsley: Okay. That's all I had.
Marshall: Anyone else? No? So, at this time I would like to ask the applicant to come
forward, please, and I'm going to ask for your name and address for the record, please,
McKay: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. Becky McKay with
Engineering Solutions. Business address 1029 North Rosario, Meridian. I'm here this
evening representing LC Development on this particular application. Just kind of want
to give you guys just a little quick history on this. We have been working for years now
trying to solve the sewer and water issues out in this particular area, since Meridian
Heights Sewer and Water District. This was the majority of the existing dwellings were
-- were on their system and with their cooperation and, obviously, cooperation and
assistance of the city, we were able to come to like a three way agreement and so we
did kind of a group annexation into the city, so that the city could provide sewer and
water service to this area and the existing homes within Kentucky Ridge and Meridian
Heights and my client Mr. Centers did pay my firm and we went in and we designed
sewer and water from Victory, extended it up to make connections to Kentucky Ridge,
Meridian Heights, and to stub to the north boundary of this particular property. So,
obviously, it was my client's intent that -- that, you know, he wanted to develop this
particular 56 acres. He thought about it for many years and now we have made it a
reality through a lot of hard work, effort, and a lot of money spent by all parties. So, we
are glad to be here before you this evening, so I just wanted to kind of give you a brief
little update on that. Mr. Centers owns additional property in this area. We are bringing
in 57 acres, because there is -- your sewer planning map kind of runs along that Sundial
Lateral and it's a -- it's a boundary there for properties that will sewer to Victory and,
then, properties will go west onto Linder Road and down Linder to the Fall Creek project
where the 36 inch -- or 24 inch trunk is today. Is this working? Oh. Okay. When we
took a look at this project one of the things that we were very cognizant of is, obviously,
the south Meridian transportation plan, your Comprehensive Plan and the transportation
maps that are in that, which -- which state that Kentucky Way will be extended south
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eventually making interconnection to Amity, so that there is a mid mile collector between
Amity and Victory. Also that Harris Street, which currently goes east out to Meridian
Road will eventually be extended through my client's other property out to Linder Road.
So, that will give us those -- those mid mile collectors providing linkage to the interior of
this development. So, one of the -- in meeting with the Kentucky Ridge neighbors -- we
did meet with them on two different occasions. We met -- went to their homeowner's
meeting last night and talked about some issues, because at the last meeting they had
questions and wanted me to come back with additional information. We did provide
that. Obviously, traffic is -- is a concern. Kentucky Way is a connector roadway. When
it was done in the '90s it was done as a residential collector and on residential collectors
they did allow some limited front-on housing are allowed to back out onto those
residential collectors. So, when I looked at this I wanted to create some type of traffic
calming measure. We also wanted to create -- my client wanted to make sure that
when you entered the subdivision from Kentucky Way that it had the appearance that
this is a separate development, the Biltmore Estates development, and so it would have
an identity and not look like just an extension of Kentucky Ridge, just as we want to
maintain the integrity of their neighborhood. So, what we did is we -- we have a small
island there that enters at the north end. We did -- we provided additional landscaping
on both sides of that. That will channel that traffic. It will narrow down from a 36 back
to back two-way collector roadway and, then, it will narrow around those islands to 21
back to back on each side, thereby slowing that traffic down. We, obviously, want to
have some type of entrance signage feature and create, you know, a statement when
they come into this development. We didn't take Kentucky Way straight up. We kind of
angled it to make it look and feel like a neighborhood collector, so that we -- we don't
get those higher speeds. We brought all of our side streets linking in and we had to
make a connection to the northeast corner up at Carbondale. That is the existing
Meridian Heights. There is a cul-de-sac that's there. However, the right of way goes to
our east boundary. So, it was ACHD's desire that we extend and make that connection
to Carbondale. The Hansen property is just north of that. The sewer and water, when
we designed that up through there, we did do a conceptual site plan on Mr. Hansen's
property, so all of these puzzle pieces in the future will connect together and -- and they
will -- your sewer and water will be in future streets. We looked at putting a second stub
street right there at the corner as Sonya was talking about. Our concern was that is the
lowest point of the property, it's dropping off really fast at that corner and we also had to
match in the elevation of Carbondale. So, what happens is the -- those two linkages will
be so close together that the geometry may not work and we may have a problem
meeting ADA standards. We can only have an -- up to a ten percent slope on our public
streets, so we ended up putting a common lot there where the sewer and the water
come through. It's 126 feet wide. There would be no -- there would, obviously, have to
be -- if we can't provide -- you know, we would put a 14 foot asphalt surface over that
sewer and water and it could double as a pedestrian linkage. When we came up to
Harris Street -- Harris Street right now is a half plus 12 collector roadway. The Hawkins
project that was planned south of it, they came through for a comp plan amendment,
annexation and rezone. They have not exercised their development agreement, but
they did put a time extension on that. They were going to, obviously, add additional
right of way to the 40 that exists and build -- make it wider and do some traffic calming
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for the homes that front on Harris Street.. So, what we plan is to extend Harris and,
then, we are going to link it down -- it will swoop down to the south and go back up and
T into another collector, so we don't end up with a straight shot right out to Linder in the
future. One of our other site constraints was the Williams Pipeline. It does come
around the -- along the south -- the southwest corner of the property. That's a 75 foot
wide easement. We can't plant any trees in it, we can, though, install like a ten foot
multi-use pathway, which is consistent with your pathway plan. Our central amenity is
going to have playground equipment. We are going to have a half basketball court.
Typically they will put little benches around the playground by the basketball court, so
people can -- the parents can sit and watch. We will have micropaths that link into the
project. We feel that, obviously, this will compliment this area. We don't have any lots
under 8,600 square feet, even though we are R-4. Our average lot size is 11,000
square feet. So, we -- we were cognizant of the fact that Kentucky Ridge is existing and
their average lot size is around 11,000. So, we wanted to, obviously, be compatible and
consistent with them. One of the comments the Council had when the annexation came
through, the Hansen -- Mr. Hansen was adamant about his cooperation was -- was
contingent on him getting an R-8 zone. The Council said we are comfortable with that.
However, we want the lots that adjoin Kentucky Ridge to be a minimum of 10,000
square feet and they put that in the development agreement. So, when I designed this
do not have any lot adjacent to Kentucky Ridge lots that is under 10,000 square feet. In
fact, our deepest -- we tried to put our deeper lots there, 130 feet in depth, so that we --
you know, we would have some separation between those homes and ours. We put
that knuckle in there, so that, you know, it doesn't appear like it's just a row of houses to
kind of give it a little bit of modulation there as far as the homes are concerned and
when we run our -- our street west we kind of did the same thing, we grouped that street
down so we vary in lot depth from I believe 130 to 156 feet. So, you won't have all
those homes sitting right in alignment at that 20 foot setback, you will get some -- some
variety there. Densitywise, our density is two -- what is it? 2.83 dwelling units per acre.
That's -- that's our net density. Meridian Heights' net density is 4.8. Kentucky Ridge is
3.1. So, we are less than, obviously -- less dense than what adjoins us and we believe
that this particular project will add to this area and it will make for a really good
neighborhood and the beginning of new development out in this particular section. We
have reviewed the staff report and I did send Sonya and Bruce my comments. I did
bold the comments that I had, as Sonya indicated. There is a -- there is a home right in
the middle of the property. It does fall right in our second phase. The original condition
said that the home would have to be removed prior to the engineer's signature on the
final plat of the first phase. We ask that that just be modified to be the second phase.
The original farmhouse -- there were two homes on this property. There was a
farmhouse and outbuildings along the north boundary. Those have already been
removed. The house in the middle is a nicer home and there are renters there and they
have requested that they would like to stay there until the second phase if possible. But
the home will lie right in the street, so it will have to go. There is small drainage ditch
that runs through the property and comes in kind of over by the southwest corner. With
that Williams Pipeline being there I was concerned about piping that and possibly
having some interference with that pipeline. So, one of the things we talked about since
it's just a small drain that we could make it kind of a neat waterway and a water amenity,
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because this property has a significant amount of fall to it and we could move our
micropath over one lot and, then, bring it into the central common area and maybe have
a little babbling brook. So, that was kind of our thought there. We may end up piping it
if it works out. It's just we wanted that option to remain open. Concerning zone four
and the pressure irrigation, the question arose what -- you know, what -- what is the
problem and can this particular piece of property in the first phase be served. We have
met with Kyle Radek. We did talk about the different pressure zones. We are pressure
zone five. The existing zone out there is four. Now, typically, Kyle indicated we see
overlap of a -- we will see an overlap of zone four into five until such time as we
establish zone five. He said we can -- we will have to -- we ran the water model, but we
need to do some additional modeling. We think that we could probably go up to I think
2,720. Now, when he wrote the report he said 2,700. I think he just did an average and
said well -- and we will have to, obviously, study that and determine exactly can they
serve up to phase two or phase one, two, and part of three. The Public Works
requirement is we have to meet the 1,500 gallons per minute fire flow requirements.
So, basically, zone four can go as far as your water system can meet that requirement.
If it's -- if we drop below it, then, that stops. Now, we are working with Public Works.
did send a drawing over to the city to locate a well on the south side of Harris and that
would be a city well. We are also talking about incorporating a neighborhood park in the
larger portion. I think that those pretty much were all the comments that I had on those
two related issues. The highway district -- we just received their staff report today.
believe the staff has it. We have reviewed it. I did have a few questions for Mindy,
which I e-mailed her. We have not gone to the ACHD commission, but we expect to
here shortly. Do you have any questions?
Freeman: Mr. Chair, I do.
Marshall: Commissioner Freeman.
Freeman: Actually, a few of them, but I think they are quickly answered. Could you
explain to me what the -- what the driving force is behind this idea of having a second
stub street to the north. Why? I'm not implying that you want it, I'm just curious why we
are even talking about it.
McKay: According to Bruce Freckleton one of the comments of the city engineer
Warren Stewart was that he would prefer your sewer and water facility to be located
within a public street --
Freeman: Okay.
McKay: -- versus just a common lot. That's always a preference, but, however, we
have multiple situations where we have to run them through a common lot in order to
you know, make a particular portion of the project sewer. We can't always put them in
streets.
Freeman: Okay.
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McKay: We try to avoid that and I think that's where that comment is derived from.
Freeman: That makes sense. Thanks. Question two. Could you describe briefly what
the plan is for storm water retention? Is it going to be surface retained?
McKay: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Freeman, we have not designed the storm
drainage in the project. We are just starting to, obviously, look at that.
Freeman: Okay.
McKay: What we do --
Freeman: The reason I asked, I just saw a minimal open area and what you do have is
parks, so I thought --
McKay: What we -- what we know about the property is we have test holes and
geotechnical information. We don't have any high ground water, because we are
elevated up here on this kind of bench area and we have good well draining soils, so it
does not prohibit us from putting subsurface seepage beds. We also can use like
retention ponds, swales, storm tech systems, which they have 90 percent capacity
versus 70 percent --
Freeman: Okay. So, you're considering some underground storage --
McKay: Yes, sir.
Freeman: -- if you don't have room.
McKay: Yes, sir.
Freeman: That answers my question. Last one. Could you describe briefly what the
plan is for your perimeter fencing and how that will coordinate with existing fencing that
the neighbors have up?
McKay: Commissioner Freeman, we have discussed fencing with the Kentucky Ridge
residents. There is an existing vinyl -- white vinyl kind of rail fence along their south or
-- yeah. South boundary and their north boundary. There is also some old wood fence
on one little section. What they wanted to see was some type of privacy fencing. They
said we are used to, obviously, looking at a field and now we will have rear yards and
we would like privacy fencing. So, Mr. Centers has offered to install along that
boundary -- to have them remove their -- their little rail vinyl fence and, then, he will
install like an almond colored six foot vinyl fence along that perimeter.
Freeman: Thank you.
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Yearsley: Mr. Chair?
Marshall: Yes, Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: Becky, I have a question and I don't know if you can answer this or not.
have had a chance to read the south Meridian study and I couldn't remember -- did
Harris plan to have a signal at Meridian?
McKay: Yes, sir.
Yearsley: Okay.
McKay: Eventually there will be when they meet the warrants. Yes. Cavanaugh Ridge,
which was to the east of Meridian Road, their -- their collector was going to link in on the
east side and align with Harris on the west side.
Yearsley: Okay.
McKay: And so it would be a signalized intersection in the future.
Yearsley: Okay. That's all I had. Thank you.
Marshall: Any other questions, Commissioners? All right.
McKay: Thank you.
Marshall Thank you. All right. Now, we are getting to the public testimony and I'd like
to start by saying thank you all. I appreciate the public input. It does help very much.
And I appreciate those that have signed up. If you want to testify and didn't sign up,
will have an opportunity for you, but I'm going to go through this list first. Bill Hansen.
Would you like to testify, sir? Sir, if you're going to testify I'm going to have to ask you
to come up here to the microphone and I'm going to ask you to give your name and your
address for the record, please, and, then, I will give you three minutes.
Hansen: Okay. Bill Hansen. 3614 South Carbondale Place. Right in the cul-de-sac
where this is all taking place.
Marshall: Thank you.
Hansen: Sorry.
Marshall: Not a problem.
Hansen: But what about for us all down this whole side? They were talking about
Kentucky Ridge, but what about our side?
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Marshall: Right now this is not a -- we are not able to answer questions right now.
Hansen: Oh. Okay.
Marshall: What we are looking for is your testimony on what your opinion is on this,
what should be and what shouldn't be.
Hansen: Okay.
Marshall: And, then, when you're done if any of the Commissioners have a question for
you they will have an opportunity to ask you a question and you could respond to it. All
right? Does that work?
Hansen: Yes.
Marshall: All right. Thank you.
Baird: Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair, one more thing to add to that. If there is a question that a
neighbor would like the developer to answer he can short of put that in the record, the
developer can write it down and when they rebut they can answer your question. It's
kind of a circuitous way to get your answer --
Hansen: Okay. I have never been to one of these. Appreciate the --
Marshall: Thank you, Ted. So, yes, what I'd like to hear, if I could, what that question is
and what your opinion on that might be.
Hansen: How are we going to be impacted when they cut a road into our cul-de-sac?
I don't know if I'm --
Marshall: Okay. You're asking what impact will that have on you when they cut the
road in through the cul-de-sac. Right?
Hansen: The cul-de-sac on --
Marshall: And we will try to get the applicant to answer that as best they can when they
-- after the public testimony.
Hansen: Okay. Thank you.
Marshall: Thank you, sir. All right. I have Duane Hargrove. Duane Hargrove suggests
he will not testify at this time. Tamara Hamilton. Thank you, Tamara. And if you could
give your name and address for the record, please.
Hamilton: Chairman and Commissioners, name is Tamara Hamilton. My address is
3496 South Arcaro Avenue, Meridian, and I am speaking on behalf of our neighborhood
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association. Currently I am the president of the HOA and we do have on record 93
signatures authorizing me to speak on behalf of most everyone in our subdivision. The
first thing that I would like to address is when we met with the ACHD regarding another
subdivision related to our property area, our subdivision, we brought up the fact that on
the proposed collector network that Kentucky Way is actually considered amid -- mid
mile collector, which greatly impacts the amount traffic that will be eventually traveled
along Kentucky Way and I just wanted to point out to you -- you should have the map up
right now and a lot of the other collectors into neighborhoods are highlighted in green
and you will see that most of them are short and -- but the Kentucky Way and Stoddard
are considered one and the same street if this Kentucky Way for some reason was
allowed to deviate from Stoddard. So, the future of Kentucky Way is highlighted in the
purple line going south and will eventually connect to Amity and possibly further. The
next slide that you will see is an example of a Kentucky Way, which is a two lane road
versus Stoddard, which is a three lane road in most -- most of the area between Victory
and Overland. So, there is quite a -- quite a difference between those two roads as far
as collectors. We do have -- on Kentucky Way we have eight homes that back out onto
Kentucky Way verses Stoddard has none. Kentucky Way has a 25 mile an hour speed
limit. Stoddard has 40. And I believe that most mid mile collectors are closer to the 40
mile an hour speed limit. As I said, Kentucky Way has two lanes versus three and we
also have our school bus area that stops within our subdivision due to a traffic issue -- I
believe it was a year or two years ago when three children were almost hit by a car that
lost -- the ice on the road caused them to lose a little control of their vehicle. So, at that
time the bus stop was at Victory and Kentucky Way, which was not a safe situation to
begin with. But that got moved back to within our subdivision. We would like to
propose four different options to help change the mid mile collector. Our first option is
maybe make a little bit more of a meandering roadway which Biltmore has
accomplished a little bit, but I feel that it's still an opportunity for speeding to occur and
as it's coming into our subdivision, even though they have the island there, everyone is
used to going a certain speed. So, we are concerned about that. Another thought we
had was perhaps having a T intersection similar to Stoddard -- or, excuse me, similar to
Strata Bellisima Subdivision where it meets Victory Way as you go into their subdivision
there is a street that crosses so it forms a T. Another example of a deviation from a
main artery road would be Overland, which is in the bottom right-hand side and you can
see where they have deviated quite a bit from the original drawing. On the next slide
you will see option number two, which would utilize Mr. Hansen's property to the
northeast side of Kentucky Ridge. When that time is available that it is ready to be
developed it could continue to Stoddard quite easily. You will notice that I have an
arrow pointing from Stoddard to the actual drawing or map and that is Stoddard, which
is a real true mid mile collector. On this map we have option number three, which we
could utilize Mr. Petty's property to the west of Kentucky Ridge Estates at future
development and it would intersect with Cobble Lane. Our fourth option proposal is to
use Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District ponds and lands, which could connect
somewhere along Victory once that land is available as well. The benefits of changing
the routes of a true mid mile collector -- it would give the opportunity for us to utilize
today's standards for a collector. There wouldn't be any driveways coming to -- onto a
collector which typically the speed is a little faster. It would reduce accidents. It would
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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line up with existing roads, which Kentucky Way does not. It T's at Victory and it would
be a good use of future traffic signals in case there needs to -- that needs to happen.
You would have a four way area versus a three way. On the next slide we have the
second issue, which right now Kentucky Way is 18 years old, therefore, it's not up to
today's standards for even a neighborhood collector or residential collector. Excuse me.
It doesn't have curb, gutter, or sidewalk on Kentucky going out to Victory, so once --
once it intersects with Riodosa from that point to the Victory intersection it is not
sidewalked, curbed, or guttered. We feel that that's unsafe for pedestrians and
bicyclists and doesn't promote a healthy living for getting to and from other areas of the
city. Our proposal is to improve Kentucky Way on the next slide. It really needs curb,
gutter and sidewalk on both sides of the Kentucky Way and we have made
arrangements with the first development called Revolution Ridge and they have
tentatively agreed to put curb, gutter and sidewalk along our east portion of Kentucky
Way, but we still need to have the other side just to make it safe and actually keep the
cars on the road. I feel that gutters do -- or, excuse me, the curb will help that. And,
then, this -- this improves Kentucky Way -- on the next slide it improves Kentucky Way
now. We need to strive toward connecting our subdivision with the city and future
subdivisions that connect to us. It will address the safety concerns we have about our
park, which is bordering two streets. Also pedestrians and bike riders and that we
believe that both developers should make improvements now instead of waiting to use
future taxpayer dollars. And our last proposal is to connect Kentucky Way to Harris at --
at the beginning. Build the main road infrastructure before homes are built. Harris
Street is a true mid mile collector and has potential to be upgraded to handle that type
of traffic. Carbondale is only a residential collector and, therefore, everyone will be
going through the neighborhood and if they can safely get out onto Meridian Road they
will do that, otherwise, it will only be Kentucky Way that they will use. It also provides a
safer entrance and exit from the start for Biltmore. And that concludes my presentation.
Marshall: Commissioners, any questions for Tamara?
Freeman: I have one question. On your last proposal connecting Kentucky Way to
Harris, looking at the applicant's plan it looks like they do connect. So, I'm wondering if
that's one of the things you're proposing or --
Freeman: -- is there something else in mind?
Hamilton: Actually, what I was thinking is we need to have the infrastructure to begin
with, not as the phases come through. So, rather than waiting until the end that it
should be in place to begin with.
Freeman: And did I hear you say you have had some meetings with ACHD and
expressed --
Hamilton: One meeting regarding Revolution Ridge, which is the subdivision going in to
the west of Kentucky Ridge Estates.
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April 3, 2014
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Freeman: Okay. Were you able to review any of these proposed options with them?
Hamilton: No. This -- this came about after our meeting with them and so we wanted to
present it as a thought. They were actually shocked that Kentucky Way was a mid mile
collector.
Freeman: Okay. That's all of my questions. Thanks.
Marshall: Any other, Commissioners?
Yearsley: I don't.
Marshall: Thank you very much.
Hamilton: Thank you.
Marshall: All right. Next I have Sandy Smith and from the audience Sandy declines to
make comment. Val Hill. Mr. Hill, I'm going to ask you to give your name and address
for the record, please, sir.
Hill: My name is Val Hill. I live at 686 West Blue Downs in Kentucky Ridge Estates.
Becky has advised you that there are plans in works to add a subdivision to the west
eventually to connect with Linder Road. That property, as I understand it, belongs to
the developer of this subdivision. We had early on in our first meeting with them asked
that they consider taking a collector street out to Linder straight out to the west and that
could be easily done off of their cul-de-sac that they have and not put all of the traffic
onto Kentucky Way. I know that it was indicated towards the end that there is going to
be eventually a stop light on Harris and Meridian Road. I can tell you that until that
stoplight is installed that that will become a very dangerous intersection with the number
of homes that they are looking at putting here. You can't get onto Meridian Road unless
you have got a stoplight during the rush hour traffic and that's something that really
concerns me and because of that what that's going to do is it's going to funnel 90
percent of the traffic right down Kentucky Way and we have got a street there that is
only 26 feet wide in some of the areas and as was indicated it doesn't have curb and
gutter and sidewalk down at the lower end where it enters into Victory. Our concern --
and especially mine -- is that we are going to create a very unsafe and dangerous
situation and I would ask the developer and this board who is going to accept
responsibility for the safety of our children and our grandchildren and those who play in
our park along there if they just simply send all of this traffic there. I have been around
long enough to know that people going to take the most easily accessible route and
right now the way this is being planned that route is Kentucky Way. I would ask that
they consider and this board -- Commission consider that they could accommodate a lot
more traffic if they would simply go out west with a collector off of their cul-de-sac and
take it out to Linder Road. Linder Road is not that heavily traveled and it would be a
much safer exit for people and make our subdivision a much safer place. With that
that's all I have to say. Thank you.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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Marshall: Thank you. Commissioners, any questions?
Freeman: Not right now.
Marshall: Thank you, sir. All right. Fred Tomow -- Tillman. That's an N. I'm guessing
Tillman. I'm going to ask you to correct me and give me your name and address for the
record, please.
Tillman: Yes. My name is Fred Tillman. Address is 3592 South Arcaro and I originally,
if you will notice on the sheet, indicated that I did have some questions, but apparently
can't ask you questions based on your earlier comment. What I was really trying to do
was maybe ask the staff and I didn't hear all of the staff report. I think there was
something stated about a development agreement and I guess all I really had -- is that
permissible to ask the staff to respond to a question?
Marshall: Please ask your questions and, then, we will have the staff respond.
Tillman: Okay. Fair enough. My question is does Meridian use development
agreements between developers and the City of Meridian when they are considering
land use applications as a final -- once the final decision -- and I do realize this is a
preliminary plat. That's my question.
Marshall: Commissioners, any questions?
Freeman: No.
Oliver: No.
Freeman: Save that for later.
Marshall: We will have to have the staff answer it here in just a bit. All right.
Tillman: Can't answer it now?
Baird: Your discretion.
Marshall: My discretion.
Baird: Might as well.
Marshall: All right. Staff, could we get an answer to that, please?
Lucas: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, yes, the City of Meridian uses
development agreements during land use applications to typically insure special
conditions and agreements between the city and the developer are met.
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April 3, 2014
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Tillman: Mr. Chair, if I could ask one other question along that same line. When would
that development agreement be available to the public to be able to read what is being
agreed upon before we are asked to come and comment on the project?
Wafters: If I may address that --
Marshall: Please.
Wafters: -- Chairman Marshall. Sir, staff is recommending a development agreement.
Typically a development agreement is required with an annexation and zoning request.
This property was a little atypical in that it was annexed with a Category B annexation
and like I mentioned at the beginning, as a provision of the declaration of consent to
annexation this property was not allowed to receive development approval until such
time as the property owners and the city enter into a development agreement. I have
issued a staff report, it is available to the public, and it does contain development
agreement provisions for this site.
Tillman: Mr. Chairman, if I could just have afollow-up question on that. Is that available
online or --
Wafters: It is. Yes.
Tillman: Okay. It is.
Wafters: It's under our city searchable documents.
Tillman: And that's under the application -- the projection application number --
Wafters: Yes.
Tillman: -- so I could find that and read it?
Waters: Yes. If you have problems finding it, please, call our office and we will --
Tillman: Thank you very much. That's the only questions I had. I was -- just procedural
questions is what I was trying to ask, but I don't have any real comments at all on the
project itself until I have had an opportunity to really read what the staff is
recommending. Thank you.
Marshall: Thank you. Yes, that's good for everyone to know that there is -- all the
documents that we have prior to coming to this meeting are on public record and they
are available under the City of Meridian searchable documents I believe under the
Planning and Zoning Commission and the date of this meeting and it's found under their
-- typically you can find it a week to two weeks in advance.
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April 3, 2014
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Baird: Mr. Chair?
Marshall: Yes, sir.
Baird: If I might add one more thing to the explanation of the procedure.
Marshall: Please.
Baird: The development agreements are primarily -- the terms are agreed upon by the
City Council, so that the staff report that you're going to review that's online you will
have a chance to testify to the City Council if you find something objectionable, want
something added, that -- that's your opportunity to get a word in about what that DA
should contain.
Freeman: Good point.
Marshall: All right. So, was there anyone else? I have no one else signed up. Was
there anyone else that would like to testify to this? No? All right. Then I'd like to ask
the applicant to come back up, please. And, again, your name and address for the
record, please.
McKay: Becky McKay. Engineering Solutions. 1029 North Rosario, Meridian. The
gentleman from Meridian Heights had the question on the Carbondale Street extension.
My initial concept did not connect to Carbondale, but terminated and just went to the
north. Ada County Highway District did have a staff meeting to discuss it, got back to
me and said, you know, we told you we didn't think that we wanted Carbondale, but we
do, because we do -- we have verified that there is right of way platted to your
boundary, so you have to connect to it. So, we didn't really have the discretion to
change that. I think there was also a question concerning fencing. We will be fencing
along the Meridian Heights west boundary, which is our common east boundary, just
like we will be fencing along -- the same type of materials along Kentucky Ridge. So,
we will have perimeter fencing to create this new neighborhood and give them some
privacy. Kentucky Way -- I was doing this when Kentucky Ridge came through. There
was a lot of discussion about should Kentucky Way align with Stoddard Road and the
developer Mike Preston at the time decided he -- he argued that he did not want to, that
-- that it made sense that he push it to the west and, obviously, it -- you know, it was his
preference that that be the route. Kentucky Way has been talked about as a collector
since day one, because, obviously, you take a look at the section out here, we have to
create these collector routes to go into the interior and filter that traffic out. Now, we,
obviously, try to send that traffic in multiple directions, so that we don't burden any of the
existing roadways. Yes, when Kentucky Way was constructed it was constructed --
think it's 29 back to back. The asphalt may vary, because it does not have curb, gutter
or sidewalk. It's my understanding that the developer of Revolution Ridge was going to
install sidewalk, because all of his traffic will go -- dump into Kentucky Way. However,
we did provide a traffic study on this project, a full blown traffic study. Six Mile
Engineers went through it. Based on the analysis and Ada County Highway District,
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April 3, 2014
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they have indicated that there is adequate capacity on the existing roadways that we
are connecting to to accommodate it. They said maximum expected traffic volume on
Kentucky Way is approximately 100 -- or 1,015 vehicles per day. The threshold for an
existing collector in a residential area with front-on housing is 5,000. So, to give you
perspective, a local street -- if we are doing a new local street the capacity is 1,000
vehicles trips per day. Existing local streets we can put up to 2,000. This is a mid mile
collector and it's going to be 1,015. The south Meridian transportation plan, the ACHD
master street map, your Comprehensive Plan, has shown a collector here for years. If
-- if there was an issue with the volumes of traffic exceeding that threshold or safety
threshold, obviously, the highway district and the city would have to look at this from a
different perspective, but there is capacity. We are trying to make sure that we do
everything that we can to calm the flow of that traffic at our entrance and we are going
to be paying extensive impact fees to Ada County Highway District, which those dollars
may be used to mitigate our impact on the transportation system. So, I think to say that
-- that we will be burden upon the existing taxpayers is -- is not correct. Mrs. Hamilton
indicated that they -- they had some options. We believe we -- we have meandered the
Kentucky Way through Biltmore. A T intersection -- I mean you -- you have got -- we
are Ting it into Harris, like the plans show. The Hansen property, if you were to stick a
collector through there that would be all you could put through there would be a
collector. There wouldn't be -- I mean no one would ever develop the property if a
collect and the landscape buffering would consume the entire parcel or most of it. As
far as going through the pond area, that's on that curve of Victory Road. Victory Road
has a real sharp curve as you go eastward and that's due to the Ridenbaugh Canal and
as it intersects and crosses Victory Road. Victory Road is in the CIP. In the Ada
County Highway District report they indicated what improves are planned in their capital
improvement plan. They have indicated that our application complies with all their
policy standards. The other question was about building out to Harris -- or extending
Harris out to Linder. We can't build streets until -- without sewer and water and utilities.
Those all have to be designed, because they all fall in our streets. That's really not a
viable option, because the sewer is about a mile away. So, you can't build streets in
advance of that and, like I said, you know, it has been evaluated by traffic engineers
and the highway district and they say that there is adequate transportation facilities to
accommodate our development. We are also going to phase this, so it's not like they
are going to be hit with 159 lots all of a sudden. We are phasing it in five phases. Do
you have any questions?
Marshall: Commissioners?
Yearsley: Mr. Chair, I have a couple.
Marshall: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: In your transportation study did you include the traffic from Revolution Ridge
with your study down --
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April 3, 2014
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McKay: Yes. We were -- we were aware of that and the highway district staff report
incorporates in their calculations that analysis. Yeah.
Yearsley: Okay.
McKay: What they do is the traffic engineers will meet with the highway district and,
then, they will let them know what other projects are planned that will be creating
additional trips on the network. Yes, sir.
Yearsley: Okay. And, then, the signal at Harris, do you know how close they are to
meeting those warrants? It might be --
McKay: Well, typically, what we see is until you put trips on it you don't meet the
warrants, because you can't meet it on all four legs.
Yearsley: Yeah.
McKay: So, I anticipate that when the volumes in Harris -- right now I think the volumes
are about 400 trips -- I think it said 400 and some trips, something to that effect. Around
four or five hundred trips a day. So, until we put some additional traffic on Harris and
Cavanaugh Ridge extends their collector in, I think that's when we will see that that
signal will be installed and the discussions with ITD and ACHD were that those larger
developments would pay -- they would have latecomer agreements that would pay their
proportionate share, like into a trust fund. But that -- that was kind of the plan. Now, if
the big commercial development that Hawkins proposed came in, they had to install the
signal, because they would meet the warrants just with their commercial development.
Yearsley: Okay. And, then, there was one about connecting -- extending Kentucky
Way up to Harris as part of phase one. Is that -- how realistic is that?
McKay: Well, the sewer and the water is over at the northeast corner and so typically
we start a project, you know, where the sewer and the water is the closest and, then,
we, you know, kind of build from there. Right now I don't think -- I mean I just don't think
that's realistic. Our phases are smaller phases and they can't bear the cost of building
that much collector to bring on like 29 lots in the first phase. You know, the dollars and
cents don't work. You put that type of, you know, burden, we -- then it -- you know, it
just won't pencil. Typically we don't go out and upgrade all the facilities and, then, build
houses, it usually is the opposite, and that's kind of the way development is all over the
country, it's -- you know. And that's the way it's been here. We are always kind of
playing catch up.
Yearsley: Okay. Thank you.
Freeman: Mr. Chairman?
Marshall: Commissioner Freeman.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
Page 20 of 28
Freeman: Yeah. I have one follow-up question. Mrs. McKay, you did address Mr.
Hansen's question by answering that ACHD actually required you to make that
connection through that cul-de-sac.
McKay: Yes, sir.
Freeman: But I think he was actually looking more specifically for what are the impacts
going to be to them when that connection is made. Could you address that question?
We know it has to be made and ACHD requires it, but what would the impacts be?
McKay: Typically when we see those stub streets connected you will have anywhere
from a hundred to two hundred cars that could potentially go -- you know, go back and
forth either way. They usually in the traffic studies have an arrow going both ways,
because, you know, they may come into our development to drop their kid off to play
and not -- you know, at a house in our neighborhood or vice-versa or they may go out to
Meridian Road. You're going to get movement of traffic in both directions.
Freeman: Thanks. I just wanted that to be addressed.
Yearsley: Also, can I ask one other question? I think his other question may have been
-- is how is that connection -- are you going to take out the cul-de-sac or are you just
going to connect your road into that cul-de-sac? How is actually that connection to be
made?
McKay: Physically made?
Yearsley: Yes.
McKay: Typically what we do is we leave the improvements that are there and, then,
they will go in and cut out a portion, like the back end of that cul-de-sac and, then,
create a radius and come off of that with a stub street. When, obviously, their walk --
you know, the walkways to their homes, their driveways, all of that is already
established based on a cul-de-sac or a knuckle or something and, then, we extend it,
we don't go in and tear out the cul-de-sac, no, sir.
Freeman: Okay.
Marshall: At this time I'd like to acknowledge Commissioner Oliver.
Oliver: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner -- or Mr. Chairman. I have just a couple of
questions and a lot of them have already been answered, but I have still got some
confusion. Looking at the map you have phase one and phase two and, then, phase
three down below. When would Kentucky Ridge finally be put through all the way to
Harris?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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McKay: It is part of phase three, sir.
Oliver: So, at that point you have phase one and phase two, all that traffic would be
funneling out onto Kentucky Ridge --
McKay: No, sir. It will also have Carbondale as an option.
Oliver: Through a -- through a subdivision.
McKay: We have to have two points of ingress and egress if we are over I think 25 lots.
Oliver: Okay. So, again, looking at Revolution Ridge, my understanding is that at full
capacity with Revolution Ridge was finished there would be 44 percent capacity out
onto Victory. How much would that increase if you added those two phases before you
had that opportunity to funnel traffic onto Harris? Would that increase that much more
that you have more traffic going out onto Victory Road through Kentucky? That's a
narrow point on Kentucky Ridge Road right at that intersection there.
McKay: We will at build out generate less traffic on Kentucky Way than Revolution
Ridge, because we have three access points according to the highway district. As far
as the number of the first two phases, those -- those are like 29, 30 lots phases. They
are small.
Oliver: Okay.
McKay: I mean they are not -- the volume on that street is going to be consistent with a
local street. It's not even nearing capacity.
Oliver: Okay.
McKay: Not even 50 percent.
Oliver: Thank you.
Marshall: Commissioners? Anyone else -- questions for the applicant?
Freeman: No.
Marshall: At this time -- thank you.
McKay: Thank you.
Marshall: Thank you very much. At this time I do have a question for staff. My
question is looking at the difference -- the photographs we saw of Stoddard, it's --
personally Ihaven't seen a mid mile collector that was a three lane, 40 mile an hour
street. Is that actually a mid mile residential collector or is that a minor arterial?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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Lucas: Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, yeah, the comparison between
Stoddard and what will be the future Kentucky Way, although they both might be called
collectors, they are certainly designed -- they will carry different amounts of traffic.
ACHD in their traffic analysis describes Kentucky Way as a two lane residential collector
and they base their traffic analysis on that. Stoddard is a straight shot a mile long and it
connects to Overland, which is a much different street than Victory Road and there
happens to be Walmart that sits on the corner of Overland and Stoddard and so the
traffic characteristics surrounding Stoddard are_ quite a bit different than those that
would surround a street like Kentucky Way. So, they -- although they might be both
collector streets, not all collector streets are equal and when you build a collector street
with a center turn lane and the way Stoddard is, it is designed to carry more traffic and
this street, even the extension of Kentucky Way, is not -- is not built to those -- those
higher standards.
Marshall: Right. But (thought -- I was under the impression that there was a
differentiation between collector and residential collector and minor arterial and it
doesn't appear -- I think there is some fine line there.
Lucas: Sure. Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, ACRD used to use this term
residential collector and would approve residential collectors, as Mrs. McKay said, with
a certain allowance for front-on housing. They don't use that terminology anymore, but
that doesn't mean that some of those don't exist and Kentucky Way happens to be one
of those that exist as a residential collector. Oftentimes, you know, with changes in
policy, changes in standards, you -- you know, you just have a difference in terminology.
I don't know if that exactly answers your question, but there are certainly multiple
different levels of streets and one collector, due to its characteristics might anticipate to
carry much more traffic than another collector, but they all kind of worked off some --
some similar standards. I don't know if that's completely clear, but that's the -- the best
can do I think for you.
Marshall: I think for me it is, because I know what we picture as a residential collector
today at the mid mile point through a number of subdivisions we have done more
recently and they are meant to be a 25 mile an hour residential collector and I know we
no longer allow -- we no longer allow house frontage, although in the past that has
happened and you see that. But I guess I'm trying to make sure everybody else is clear
on that, too, that -- that Stoddard is seen as a very different type of road and to me I --
looking at it three lane, I thought it was more of a main arterial, but -- all right. So, at
this time does anybody else have any questions for anyone?
Freeman: No.
Marshall: No? So, would it be time to close the public hearing?
Freeman: Mr. Chair, I move to close the public hearing on PP 14-004, Biltmore
Subdivision.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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Yearsley: Second.
Marshall: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on PP 14 --
Freeman: 14-004.
Marshall: -- 14-004. Thank you. There it is. All those in favor say aye. And those
opposed same sign. That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Marshall: All right. So, at this time I would like to take some discussion. Thoughts.
Commissioners, who would like to go first?
Yearsley: Mr. Chairman, I will go first.
Marshall: Commissioners Yearsley.
Yearsley: I will give Commissioner Freeman a break from making him go first. You
know, I do like the subdivision. I like the way it's laid out. Unfortunately, I do have to
agree with the neighbors is they will go down Kentucky Way. Personally, if I lived in that
subdivision I wouldn't hit Harris until I had a signal and I would recommend you make
that comment to ACHD when you meet with them, because ultimately they will go down
your street and I feel sorry for you guys for that -- that part. However, that's beyond my
purview of denying this subdivision. So, I do feel for you. I hope that we can actually
get that signal in sooner rather than later, because it will impact you adversely, my
opinion. I think it's done a good job. Other than that, the nice thing about the smaller
phases is you won't see the impact in traffic right now. You will start to see it gradually
and it will continue to build. Hopefully, ACHD will recognize Kentucky Way and actually
start putting in curb, gutter, and sidewalk for safety of your children. I actually serve on
one of the committees and I will recommend that that be moved up as well. I think most
of my questions were addressed and I think it's a good project and I -- that's all I have.
Marshall: Thank you, Commissioner Yearsley. Commissioner Freeman, you look like
you have something to say.
Freeman: Oh? Do I? Mr. Chair, before I get to the main concern this evening, which
was the traffic on Kentucky Way, I did just want to acknowledge that I did read the letter
that we received from Mark and Christine Freeman that expressed four concerns, one
of which was the Kentucky Way safety concerns. Another of which was fencing for the
new subdivision and that it would be coordinated somehow in an esthetic way with the
other -- the adjoining neighborhoods and I think the applicant addressed that
adequately. There were two other comments on the letter that did not come up this
evening, so I quickly wanted to address those. One was that this particular property
from this letter writer actually abuts the new subdivision and there was a concern that
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
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the lot lines on the other side of the property boundary between the subdivisions didn't
align with the houses that are already built and there was also aconcern -- and a hope
that perhaps the homes along that border would be limited to single story homes. I just
wanted to point out that, you know, the UDC doesn't allow us to unfairly pick out certain
properties in these sorts of zones and say you can only have one story in those zones.
Property owners are allowed to build two stories, whatever fits within the height
restrictions of -- of the UDC and it's kind of the same thing with lot lines. The property
owner has the right to arrange the lot lines however it works. There is no requirement,
nothing we can lean on in the UDC that would force an applicant to align their property
lines with those adjoining. What I can say is this neighborhood does seem to be very
compatible with the adjoining neighborhoods. I did hear the applicant say that they paid
particular attention to the size of the lots that are adjoining that neighborhood to make
sure they were of a larger size. I was glad to hear the applicant did thoughtfully address
that. It sounds like the applicant has done a lot of things to thoughtfully address the
concerns in anticipation of the concerns that came up and I have to agree that
concerning Kentucky Way, I will turn my attention to that now. I think they did a really
good job of addressing most of those concerns. Traffic slowing measures.. Making this
road curve through the subdivision. Very well done. I think the -- I think the subdivision
divides out nicely. Flows very nicely and fits very well with the surrounding
neighborhoods. There are concerns, of course, expressed with the extension of
Kentucky Way and I share some of those concerns. I'm a little bit disappointed that
Kentucky Way doesn't have curb, gutter and sidewalk now. However, what I keep
coming back to is Kentucky Way was always intended and was designed to be a
collector street it was always intended to go through that existing neighborhood and
extend into this one. That's the nature of collector streets. And the applicant did --
think the key thing the application was able to inform me of was that that collector street
is -- the existing one is actually designed for a capacity of 5,000 vehicles per day and
you are right now somewhere around 20 percent of that. I would like to also reinforce
some of what Commissioner Yearsley said. Oh. Correct. Commissioner Yearsley,
thought you were correcting me. I would encourage the neighborhood also to approach
ACRD. Now, as a city it's not -- it's not within our authority to upgrade these streets.
That's ACHD's purview and I think they would pay attention to you if you showed them
that upgrades are required. And I think they are. However, it does meet the capacity.
We are not doing anything that stresses the design of that road. I was very glad to hear
that you got your kids' bus stop off of that road and got it into your neighborhood, which
I think was the best way to address that particular safety concern and, unfortunately, the
way these kinds of jurisdictions run when you have a separate highway district from the
city, often developments happens as the applicant pointed out and as the
Commissioners have pointed out, the development happens before those things catch
up. The wave of development kind of moves forward and hopefully right behind the
crest of that wave comes the street systems. I live in Meridian, have for several years,
and I'm always noticing how much street construction there is going on to catch up still
with the development that has been going on around us. But what I want to talk about --
my concern is this development -- this development is very well done for an R-4 zone,
for the neighborhood. I think it's done an excellent job of dealing with the traffic flow
concerns that we do have. Obviously, it can't, in the limits that it has and the limits that
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
Page 25 of 28
we have we can't fix all of those traffic flow issues with this development, but I'm hoping
that ACHD will work to get those fixed as this area develops. I'm for the project. I thank
you all for coming out and expressing your concerns. I know this applicant has a history
of working with -- with the concerns of neighboring neighborhoods and I think they have,
again, done a very good job of what is -- what they can reasonably do with this sort an
in-fill project in the middle of this mile block I think they have done quite well. I'm in
favor of the project.
Marshall: Thank you, Commissioner Freeman. Commissioner Oliver, do you have
something you would like to add?
Oliver: Other than the fact that I just want to see the traffic limited as much as possible
also for areas like Carbondale and going through Kentucky Way as much as possible
and getting out without as much traffic -- least traffic as possible to those areas,
because I know it is an area that is really not designed right currently for that much
traffic, so -- other than it looks fine.
Marshall: All right. Well, my comments. I feel for you. I do. It's rather disconcerting to
see a way of life you have had for so long suddenly start changing. You have had fields
back there where your kids could play and go do things and, you know, you're kind of
rural and it's kind of nice and it's been a long time, but this has been on the
Comprehensive Plan and the future land use map for years and it has taken hundreds
of volunteers -- city volunteers have worked on this plan. The idea -- and this is why
Ada County Highway District is actually requiring the connection to Carbondale there
and requiring that, because not only for EMS and fire, but also for just simple ingress
and egress. They try to spread that out over many different areas, so not everything is
flowing into one single road and that's something a little newer. You may not have seen
that quite as much 25, 30 years ago. You will see that more and more today where you
have multiple ingresses and egresses absolutely required and it's in the code that they
must have those. Unfortunately, our system -- you know, personally it would be nice to
have a light down there on Harris and 1 would encourage anybody that can put pressure
on ACHD and when I get my opportunities Iwill -- that should have a light down there,
because -- at build out, but the problem is funding and how much emergency items and
the one that went in last year is now at capacity and that's where -- they have got the
funding for one light, that's where they will put it, instead of here and until they have the
measurements of exactly how many cars are required to hit that minimum they are not
going to put in a light right now, unfortunately, because of our -- the way ACHD's funded
it's -- it's more of a firefighting system and you address those as they hit those
benchmarks, rather than before. There will be a collector going out to the west there
eventually. It's in the Comprehensive Plan. It's -- it will be required by ordinance, but
that area -- you can't -- you can't build that area out until the infrastructure is there to
connect to. That's -- that's an engineering fact. You just can't do it. It's also an
economic fact. I guess you could build it out there, but that would not be economically
feasible and not being a traffic engineer I do have to rely on those traffic engineers with
the traffic study and a review by a -- there was a separate independent traffic study and
a review by Ada County Highway District and I recognize those people as traffic experts
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 3, 2014
Page 26 of 28
and they have come back and stated that right now at build out with all proposed
subdivisions at this time they are not exceeding 25 percent of capacity. At the same
time, you know, having lived there for a long time it would frustrate me to see a change
and Idon't -- and, again, to that end I desperate feel for you. I'm going to have that
coming at my house one day soon. I know back behind me I have got a field that will
one day be commercial. I can see it on the Comprehensive Plan. It's coming. It's
probably much sooner than I anticipate. Again, 1 think the developer has done an
exceptionally good job of trying to match -- of trying to match the feel and size of the
lots, trying match what's there, much better than -- than a lot of the projects that come
across here. They have done an exceedingly good job of trying to match that up and --
and Ithink they have gone and tried to go a little above and beyond what absolute code
requires and if they had pushed the fact it is a land right state and they have a right to
develop it. A landowner has a right to do with it within the rules that we have already
established and I think they have -- the developer in this case has taken that and tried to
play within the rules and, then, go further to try to match in better than -- than what they
could have done still within the rules. So, I do appreciate that. Appreciate the fact that
they are matching fence. I -- I agree with the -- the comments that we can't require
them to match lot lines. fn fact, it's -- engineering wise it would be almost unfeasible.
You're just not going to match the lot lines. It's not going to be there. You can see
within this own development it's own lot lines, houses within the development are not
matching up exactly. You just can't do it and be able to hit certain square footages and
things like that. Frontage requirements, area requirements, building on envelopes
requirements, it would be impossible to do that I think and-the one story homes, again, a
lot of the homes within the subdivision will be one story next to two story or backing up
two story to one story and that's the height requirement that we have throughout the
city. Anything other than that has to come through special review. Again, my
experience with residential collectors is that seeing how we build those out over the past
ten years since I have been back to this area -- the last ten years I have been back in
this area is -- and I really have been impressed with this -- is that the idea is that we try
not to put houses fronting on them, that they are meant to be 25 miles an hour. They
are meant to be slow -- where everybody flows into it and, then, goes to a larger minor
arterial or arterial and it flows them out of the neighborhood and you take the center of
that mile and try to flow everything back out to those major cross streets. As -- as some
of the area around it develops you will see even more ingress-egress and more
opportunities to drive out of this neighborhood in other directions. But, again, anything
away from that corner has to have a method to get out and this, again, has been on the
books for a long time and I think very appropriate and I do appreciate the traffic calming,
the median and things like that that developers placed here, so short of that --
Freeman: Mr. Chair?
Marshall: Commissioner Freeman.
Freeman: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony I move to
recommend approval to the City Council of file number PP 14-004 as presented in the
staff report for the hearing date of April 3rd, 2014, with the following modifications: That
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April 3, 2014
Page 27 of 28
Condition 1.1.1E be worded to allow the existing home in phase two to remain until
signature on the second phase final plat by the city engineer and Item No. 1.1.8 that it
be reworded to say all ditches are required to be piped in accord with UDC 11-3A-6A,
unless waived by City Council or used as a water amenity or linear open space. And
also adding the following condition: The applicant shall be required to install water
mains through the common lot requires the micropath in the vicinity of Lot 9, Block 9,
which will connect into the water main required in the proposed Revolution Ridge
Subdivision to the north. End of motion.
Yearsley: Second.
Marshall: I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That
motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Marshall: All right. Now, I have no more items on the Action Item list, but before we
adjourn, Commissioners, I do have one more item I'd like to address on the record. The
July 3 meeting, we are -- first Thursday of the month of July is on the 3rd and
concerning the fact that it may be difficult for a lot of people who might want to testify
coming to that, if we were to cancel that meeting and give everybody notice of it well in
advance, it might -- it might be easier to do that now. If -- what are your thoughts?
Yearsley: I'm in favor of cancelling that meeting for July 3rd.
Freeman: That's somebody thinking further ahead than I typically do. That sounds like
a really good idea to cancel that meeting.
Marshall: Commissioner Oliver, are you wanting to be here on July 3rd?
Oliver: No.
Marshall: Okay. So --
Freeman: I didn't know that everybody knew that my grandson's birthday was July 4th.
So, I appreciate the concern.
Marshall: All right. So, that being said, I don't think we need to have a vote. I think all
of us are in favor of cancelling that and we are on the record for that, so --
Lucas: Perfect. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah. No vote. No motion. We can just go
ahead and take that off the calendar and let developers know as they are coming in that
that's not an available meeting. So thank you very much.
Marshall: And, Justin, I would like everybody here to know that it was you who thought
so far ahead. That was his. And I do appreciate it as well. Thank you.
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April 3, 2014
Page 28 of 28
Lucas: I have a trip planned, so I won't be here.
Freeman: I love and need people that think ahead. Mr. Chair, I do have a motion,
though, that we adjourn.
Yearsley: I will second that.
Marshall: I have a motion and a second to adjourn the meeting. All those in favor say
aye. Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Marshall: We are adjourned.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:31 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
PROVED
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ARSHALL - C A MAN DATE APPROVED
ATTEST:
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