2012 08-02Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting August 2, 2012
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of August 2, 2012, was
called to order at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman Scott Freeman.
Present: Chairman Scott Freeman and Commissioner Tom O'Brien, Commissioner
Michael Rohm, Commissioner Steven Yearsley and Commissioner Joe Marshall.
Others Present: Machelle Hill, Ted Baird, Bruce Chatterton, Bill Parsons, and Dean
Willis.
Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance:
Roll-call
X Steven Yearsley X Tom O'Brien
X Michael Rohm X Joe Marshall
X Scott Freeman -Chairman
Freeman: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time I'd like to call to order the
regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission for the
date of August 2nd, 2012, beginning with roll call.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda
Freeman: The first thing we need to do is adopt the agenda. I'm not aware of any
changes to the agenda at this time, so could I get a motion to adopt the agenda?
Yearsley: Mr. Chairman, I make a motion that we adopt the agenda as posted.
O'Brien: So moved.
Marshall: Second.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda. All those in favor say
aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 3: Consent Agenda
A. Approve Minutes of July 19, 2012 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting
B. Approve Minutes of July 25, 2012 Planning and Zoning special
Meeting
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August 2, 2012
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C. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: CUP
12-005 Sawtooth Middle School Wireless Communication
facility by Don Shiveley, General Dynamics Located at 3730 N.
Linder Road Request: Conditional Use Permit Approval to
Construct and Operate a Wireless Communication Facility in
an R-4 zoning District.
Freeman: The first item on the agenda is the consent agenda. We have three items on
the Consent Agenda this evening. The approval of the minutes of the July 19th, 2012,
Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. The approval of the minutes of the July
25th, 2012, Planning and Zoning special meeting, and the Findings of Fact and
Conclusions of Law for approval of CUP 12-005, Sawtooth Middle School Wireless
Communication Facility. Are there any changes or corrections that need to be made to
any of those?
Rohm: I have none.
Freeman: Could I get a motion to adopt the Consent Agenda -- to approve the Consent
Agenda. Sorry.
Rohm: So moved.
Yearsley: Second.
Rohm: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: Okay. Before we get into opening our first public hearing for our first item
just want to review the process for those of you in the audience attending. Some of you
may want to offer testimony this evening. What we will do is open the public hearing for
each item individually. We will start with the staff report and, then, we will have the
applicant come forward and the applicant has 15 minutes to present their application.
Then after the applicant speaks, anybody in the public that wishes to offer public
testimony, if you're an individual you will be given three minutes to testify. If you're
speaking for a larger group please indicate that and you will be given up to ten minutes,
if we can verify that there is, indeed, a larger group that you're speaking for. After public
testimony the applicant will be given another ten minutes to come up and respond to
anything that they may wish to respond to. After that time we will close the public
hearing and the Commission will deliberate, discuss the item, and we will, hopefully, be
able to make a recommendation to City Council based on what we hear tonight.
Item 4: Action Items
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August 2, 2012
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A. Continued Public Hearing from July 19, 2012: MCU 12-002
Accolade Apartments by Perry Homes Located South of E.
Overland Road and West of S. Bonito Way Between E. Blue
Horizon Drive and the Ridenbaugh Canal Request: Modify the
Site Plan, Landscape Plan, Building Elevations and Certain
Conditions of the Conditional Use Permit Approved for the
Accolade Apartment Project.
Freeman: So, with that I want to open the public hearing -- the continued public --
don't need to open it. We just have the continued public hearing from July 19th of MCU
12-002, Accolade Apartments by Perry Homes. Let's begin with the staff report.
Parsons: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. You're correct, this
item has been continued from the July 19th hearing for the sole purpose to discuss the
landscape improvements around the southwest and southern boundary and also to
address the architectural detailing on those garages that are around that boundary as
well. Just to get you reoriented, this is approximately a 17 acre parcel at this time, part
of the Gramercy project, and will be parcelized into an 11 acre parcel at some point and
it is currently zoned R-40. Here is the approved landscape plan that you acted on in
2011, roughly six months ago. Again, you can look at the southwest boundary and the
southern boundary there and you can see what was approved and the amount of
plantings that were -- was proposed and approved around those boundaries as well.
The applicant has gone out as you recommended and worked with the adjacent
neighbors after that public hearing and this is what they are offering to you this evening.
I believe in your packet this evening you did get a letter from the applicant's
representative -- or, excuse me, the neighborhood representative Larry Kovarik,
basically highlighting what was agreed upon and what the Perry Homes has agreed to
do moving on the application. On the right-hand side is a plan that was presented to
you on the 19th. If you look at the plan on the left-hand side you can see they have
colored it up a little bit more. Definitely added more plantings along that boundary after
their discussions with the neighbors. Also provided a blowup version here and, then,
highlighted what -- detailed the proposed changes. So, if you look on the southwest
boundary there and, of course, the southern boundary, that applicant and the neighbors
have worked out an agreement in which they would berm that two feet in height. That
would include a mix of deciduous trees and conifer trees, shrubs, ornamental grasses
and other vegetative ground cover. Keep in mind along the southwest boundary is that
ACHD drainage bed, so there will not be any trees in that boundary. At the public
hearing the applicant did offer up planting those eight required trees in the southern
boundary, but in my discussions with them this afternoon it would -- it would be his
preference to just disperse those eight trees throughout the development. Staff is
supportive of that request. Also I'd let you know that along that southern boundary right
now the plan for you this evening only depicts 19 trees. And, again, in my discussions
with the applicant -- and, of course, that letter that Larry sent out, code is going to
require a minimum of 26 trees -- or, excuse me, 22 trees. So, that applicant is providing
four additional trees than what code does require. The previous plan shows 40 trees.
So, there are less -- less trees, but this plan does exceed the code minimum and also
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
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point out to Commission that they will be three inch caliper trees, not the standard two
inch as code requires. The other item was there -- or along the southern boundary
there the neighbors and Perry Homes agreed to a gated entry there and in the
discussions with the fire department it's their preference that a gate not be placed on
that southern entry and it really has to do with the International Fire Code and their
requirement for separation between accesses into development and so it is their
preference not to have that gate and so I'm here this evening in support of that
recommendation not to allow the gate to happen in that location. I would point out to
Commission that the owner that is to retain the five acres south of this has agreed to put
in a dirt berm -- a temporary dirt berm along that 26 foot wide access road that will lead
to this boundary to kind of buffer the noise and the traffic and the like from trespassing
onto adjacent residences. A CU wasn't really the appropriate mechanism to tie that
requirement to, but keep in mind that the applicant is moving forward with a
development agreement modification on the 21st and I think that will be a discussion
that needs to be had with the Commission -- or, excuse me, the Council as they act on
that application. Lastly, wanted to move onto the elevations very quickly. Here are the
-- at the last hearing the applicant didn't really have a clear vision of what you wanted to
see for garages and carports and, of course, the neighbors were concerned of that
architectural detailing as well and so what they have agreed upon is to add some gable
roof ends on the backside of those garages along the south boundary, add a board and
batten element on there and, of course, as it's conditioned in the conditional use permit
they will have to provide two body colors and a trim color, so we get some variation in
color, you will get some modulation in that roof line and, then, of course, with the 26
trees and some of those shrubs and everything around there it should provide an
adequate screen and something esthetically pleasing to the neighbors. The one thing
did want to point out to you as well is what the neighbors -- or what Perry Homes did
with this as well is they have tried to cluster those shrubs and those trees where that
open parking area is, so if you look at the exhibit here you can see there are some open
parking stalls there, so they have done that intentionally to try to screen that -- those
headlights and that noise from trespassing as well. So, I did want to point that out to
you that it looks like they have listened to the neighbors and they are willing to do
something to address those concerns. The only concern -- it's not really a concern, but
right now as the plan sits -- as the CU is conditioned we have asked for a plan that is
equal to -- to what was approved with the original project. This plan is definitely far
better than what you saw on the 19th, so if it's your action tonight to moved forward,
make a recommendation tonight on this application, I'd definitely encourage the
Commission to probably strike that condition and, then, just basically add in your motion
that they provide a revised landscape plan to staff ten days prior to City Council. That
way as we move forward at Council we can have the most recent plan in front of City
Council and that way we can have this landscape plan tied back into the DA and gives
assurances to the applicant and the adjacent residences that these improvements will
stay with the land and be tied to the property forever. With that I'll stand for any
questions you have.
Freeman: Thank you, Bill. Are there any questions of staff?
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August 2, 2012
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O'Brien: No.
Rohm: I have none.
Freeman: Okay. None at this time. Thank you. Would the applicant like to come
forward and, please, state your name and address for the record when you reach the
microphone.
Swain: Good evening. My name is Matt Swain. I'm with Perry Homes. We are the
applicant for this --
Freeman: I need your address as well.
Swain: 219 Abrams Way, Fruit Heights, Utah.
Freeman: Thank you.
Swain: As this was continued a number of weeks ago with the suggestion to work more
closely with the neighbors, we took that opportunity to sit down with Larry, who has
been a representative of the neighborhood -- and I will just call it the neighborhood. It
includes the neighbors to the south of us and also to the southwest of us. Those that
are directly impacted by this project. As Bill pointed out their primary concerns related
to the buffer on the south and the southwest property lines. Their concerns were foot
traffic -- basically pollution, if I were to sum it up that way. Light pollution, noise
pollution, any type of transference between our properties and their properties. So, we
sat down with Larry and came up with a number of ideas to help minimize that to the
best of our capacity. The garages that we have added there, obviously, make a huge
impact to make a buffer between our property and their property. The gaps between
the garages we agree to do the berm with low level planting, shrubs, and, then,
deciduous and conifer trees within that planting area to create the heights that would
keep down the light and any type of other pollution that might transfer through those
areas. On the ACHD easement we have agreed to berm that as well up to two feet, as
well as planting grasses and other plantings. We can't do any deep root systems within
that easement bed, but plantings that will grow vertically and create a visual barrier for
the reasons I have already stated. Bill, if you could go to the garage elevation as well.
The garages that run along that south property line were -- were a concern. There was
concern that they were too flat on the back side, that they don't want to look out and see
just a continuation of a single color and so -- so, we went and we decided to put gables
on the back side using different products and a variation of color schemes along that
back side to break that up significantly. If we -- if we talk generally about the
landscaping plan itself -- if you could go back to that, Bill, please. Some -- some
changes that we made from last time that we met with you all, we have continued the
tree line boulevard look there along -- I'm not sure what they are calling that now, but
Wells Avenue that loops around the pocket park and is -- where is the -- I guess I could
do this. Uh --
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August 2, 2012
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Parsons: Matt, if you just select a color on top of the marker board.
Swain: Okay. So, the area right here is where I'm referencing that wraps around here.
We have -- we wanted to mimic that tree line landscape. It's consistent with Gramercy
within our project. That's a difference from what you had shown -- what we had shown
you last time. We have also gone through the expense of -- in your code you only
require plantings within three feet away from the building structure around the street
facing sides of the building. We have gone and have proposed that we do those
plantings around all four sides of the building. That's approximately an additional 600
plantings within the project. And those are the shrubs that cover up the base of the
buildings. Down here, as Bill discussed -- and it's not shown very accurately here -- this
road will come through here and temporarily go this way and be a third access point for
fire and safety. That road will be improved by our property owners to the south, but to,
again, limit the amount of light transference in particular, we have agreed with the
neighbors to place a berm on the south side of that access -- that temporary access
drive, which will, again, block the light from traveling into their neighborhood. We have
-- the other thing that was -- that we are lacking on -- when we came through last time
were the plantings within the -- or the parking lot. We had apparently missed putting
trees in a few of the islands within the parking lot itself per code. It requires to have a
tree in each one of those islands within the parking area. We are now compliant there.
The areas that we need to improve upon still -- and this was just a communication error
between us and our landscape architect. We are missing a few trees along this eastern
property line. We don't have quite enough trees along there and these trees down here
in the southwest corner are actually located within the ACHD easement, which we can't
do. So, we will be needing to shift those trees to the east to be compliant with the
easement encroachment and we will agree to add a few trees along that eastern
property line. Now, we had also discussed -- because this is an easement where we
can't plant trees per code, we would have had to have planted eight trees within that
easement. What we are proposing is to take those eight trees and plant them
somewhere on the project. With the addition of -- and this is getting messy. Do we
have an eraser on here?
Freeman: We can still see it.
Swain: All right.
Freeman: There are other colors, too.
Swain: There we go. Okay. I got to get one of these in my office. On that south
property line we are proposing 26 trees, Bill? Is that the right number?
Parsons: Yes, sir.
Swain: Okay. And that's four more than what code would require there? So, you have
26 trees total along that south property line. So, instead of planting those eight trees
from the ACHD easement, which we had previously talked about doing, we'd like to
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
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disperse those throughout the project to better use those. We feel like putting those
eight trees along the south property line would be overkill, they would probably grow
into each other and have to be removed at some point. I think that covers all of the
issues that the -- that we talked about with the neighbors and the issues that were left
over from our last planning hearing. If I could talk briefly to a few other things that Bill
has brought to our attention on his notes in the staff report. He's requested a detail up
in this area here to show how we are going to treat and communicate with the
streetscape. We will be doing that with our revised landscaping plan that we will submit
before -- ten days prior to the City Council hearing. He had also requested arevised --
or, excuse me, a detail on what these garages will look like throughout the project and
those elevations are, basically, the ones that we have submitted in the past where the
gable feature will be on the front, but no gable feature will be on -- on the rear of the
garages. We had proposed just having the gable feature on that south property line that
interfaces with the most adjacent neighborhood. We agreed with the neighbors to do
three inch caliper trees -- caliper trees along the south property line, which is an inch
larger than what code requires and we had discussed putting a gate down here at the
south end of that third access point. With a review with the fire and safety, they do not
want to see that and so that -- that is something that we will not be able to comply with
with our discussions with the neighbors. I believe that covers all the points. If you have
any questions I would be happy to answer those now or at a later point.
Freeman: Thank you. Are there any questions at this time of the applicant?
O'Brien: I have one, Mr. Chair.
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien.
O'Brien: Yeah. The -- that fire point or access, you said it was a temporary access?
Swain: It's only -- it's only temporary until that south property is developed.
O'Brien: Okay.
Swain: So, that will provide an access point. That access point will remain there, but it
will service whatever is developed on the south end of our property. Temporarily it will
be routed to the west --
O'Brien: Okay.
Swain: --and connect up with -- I forget which road there is there, but it's --
O'Brien: Griffin Street.
Swain: Griffin? So, that would be temporary until that parcel is developed.
O'Brien: Okay. Thank you. That's all I have.
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August 2, 2012
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Freeman: Any other questions? Okay. Thank you.
Swain: Thank you.
Freeman: All right. At this time I will take public testimony. I do have a couple of
people that have signed up in the back. Gloria Fern. You don't wish to speak at this
time? And Larry Kovarik. And, please, state your name and address for the record
when you get to the microphone. Thanks.
Kovarik: Larry Kovarik. 2686 East Green Canyon, Meridian, Idaho. Good job on the
name tonight. First of all, I just want to clarify something that occurred the last meeting
before I left and I want to say that this wasn't about Larry Kovarik and Thousand
Springs, this was about, first and foremost, Corey Barton Homes, what I will call them,
in that -- in that area back there. Then Thousand Springs. I think Matt summed it up
pretty good. He said that we sat down, we did agree upon a number of things. It was
for the neighborhoods. Not just one neighborhood, it was for the neighborhoods, and it
mostly dealt with -- like he said -- I don't know if it's got a good connotation or what, but
it did deal with pollution. It was noise, light, auto traffic, foot traffic, whatsoever. With
that, in closing, the -- the neighbors, meaning the Gramercy neighbors, the Thousand
Springs neighbors, we do support the plan and the only thing that I ask for is that in the
future if there is any problems as a result of build apartments back there that Perry
Homes sit down with the neighbors and try to resolve those problems in a respectable
manner. With that that's all I have. Thank you.
Freeman: Okay. Thank you very much. Was there anyone else that wished to offer
testimony on this item? Would the applicant like to have your ten minutes to respond?
Up to ten minutes. You don't have to use the whole thing if you don't want to. Please
restate your name and address for the record.
Swain: My name is Matt Swain. 219 Abrams Way, Fruit Heights, Utah. I won't take ten
minutes. I just want to say thank you to the neighbors. I do feel like their input was
valuable. I feel like it did benefit the project and I think together we have come up with
some really novel ideas to solve some issues. So, I appreciate their input and I'm
grateful for the opportunity to work with them. Thank you.
Freeman: Thank you. Okay. At this time I think I need a motion to close the public
hearing on MCU 12-002, Accolade Apartments.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: I move that we close the public hearing on MCU 12-002, Accolade Apartments.
O'Brien: Second.
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August 2, 2012
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Freeman: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on MCU 12-002,
Accolade Apartments. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. The
public
Hearing is closed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Freeman: Discussion?
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: My only comment on this is the primary reason that we continued this hearing to
this to -- to tonight is to validate that the applicant and the neighbors were on the same
page and we had previously approved this project and I believe the term that was used
last time is there was some concern over, quote, unquote, bait and switch. And I firmly
believe that the applicant and the neighborhood have been able to put all that behind
them and they have done exactly what we had expected to have completed for this
hearing. tonight and so I commend both the applicant and the neighborhood for taking
the time to get together and come up with a solution that meets everybody's needs and
still moves the project forward and in general this has been a project that we have all
been in support of from the beginning. So, thank you for both applicant and the public
at large.
Freeman: Thank you, Commission Rohm. For my part I can say that he has pretty
much spoken for me as well, so I have nothing further to say. Is there anybody else?
O'Brien: I agree, Mr. Chair. It just shows that the process does work.
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall, were you itching to say something?
Marshall: Oh, I just wanted to second Commissioner Rohm's comments. I really
appreciate everybody working together and I'm -- I don't hear any complaints and
everybody seems to be happy with it and I'm really excited about that and I'm excited to
see this go forward as it is.
Freeman: Thank you. I think a better project has resulted and that's what we were
after. Good. With that I think we need a motion and, please, remember that staff
requested that we strike the condition for each equal landscaping as it was stated from
the previous recommendations for approval.
Rohm: Commissioner Marshall is really good at making a motion.
Marshall: I don't have my -- here. Mr. Chair?
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August 2, 2012
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Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
Marshall: If you would help me. Just a second here. I will make a motion. I move that
-- after considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony I move to recommend
approval to the City Council of file number MCU 12-002, as presented in the staff report
for the hearing date of July 19th, 2012, with the following modification. To strike the
requirement -- I don't know the number here. That all the landscaping must match the
original -- it's now been redecided to match the new concept and to have a new
landscape plan in place for the City Council meeting. End of motion.
Yearsley: I'll second that.
Freeman: Okay. I have a motion and a second to recommend approval for MCU
12-002, Accolade Apartments, as amended. All those in favor say aye. Opposed?
Motion carries. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. Public Hearing: Request for a Street Name Change from N.
Allys Avenue to N. Records Avenue by the City of Meridian
Public Works Department.
Freeman: All right. The next item on the agenda -- I'd like to open the public hearing for
a request for a street name strange from North Allys Avenue to North Records Avenue
by the City of Meridian and let's begin with the staff report.
Ricks: Okay. Good evening, Chairman Freeman and Members of the Commission.
Ada County 911 call center has initiated a request for proposed street name change
from North Allyy Avenue due to potential confusion with sound alike and duplicate street
names within the county. South Allie Avenue, spelled A-I-I-i-e, is an existing street in
Kuna, North Allys Way, A-I-I-y-s, exact duplicate to an existing street in Boise. Dispatch
has concerns with the word Alley in general being used as a street name. It is the
recommendation of the Ada County Street Naming Committee and that of staff, that
North Allys Avenue be changed to North Records Avenue. As you can see on this -- on
your monitor it is in direct alignment with North Allyy Avenue. No businesses or
residents will be affected by this change and although the street runs in three
commercial subdivisions, Mitchger, Mitchger North, and Una Mas, there are only three
lots which are presently addressed with Allys Avenue addresses. Two of those are
vacant and the third is the new Les Schwab Tire Center, which occupies -- which is the
corner of East Ustick and North Allys Avenue. However, the business owner has
requested a Ustick Road address, which we do plan to approve. The Meridian Police
Department strongly supports this change for street name consistency reasons and the
Meridian fire department has no opposition to the change. This concludes staffs
recommendation and I will stand for questions.
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August 2, 2012
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Freeman: Thank you. Any questions of staff?
O'Brien: No.
Freeman: The applicant, I guess, is not here. We heard from the -- from you
representing the applicant. Is there anybody else that came to testify on this item? No?
Okay. Then I suppose we can get a motion to close the public hearing on this and
discuss.
Yearsley: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: I'll make a motion to close the public hearing.
Rohm: Second.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing for the request for
street name change from North Allys Avenue to North Records Avenue. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. The public hearing is closed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: Any discussion?
Marshall: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
Marshall: I'm pleased to see this happening at a time when there is only three lots
facing this -- commercial lots, one trying to change to something else, the other two not
built. It's good timing. If it's going to happen now is the time.
Freeman: Anyone else? No more discussion? Does somebody want to offer up a
motion then?
O'Brien: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien.
O'Brien: I move that we approve the request for a street change name from North Allys
Avenue to North Records Avenue by the City of Meridian Public Works Department.
Marshall: Second.
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August 2, 2012
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Freeman: I have a motion and a second to approve the request for street name change
from North Allys Avenue to North Records Avenue by the City of Meridian. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
C. Public Hearing: Request for a Street Name Change from NE 2
1/2 Street to NE 2nd Street by the City of Meridian Public
Works Department.
Freeman: At this time I'd like to open the public hearing for -- and I have this
someplace. Yes. Here it is. A request for a street name change from Northeast 2 1/2
Street to Northeast 2nd Street by the City of Meridian, beginning with the staff report.
Ricks: Chairman Freeman, Members of the Commission, staff has been notified by the
Ada County 911 call center of long-standing dispatching issues with Northeast 2 1/2
Street. The CAD system, which stands for computer-aided dispatch, presently in use is
unable to recognize the street due to the forward slash which exists as part of the street
name. In the county's dispatch system a forward slash is used solely to represent an
intersection. When dispatchers enter the numbers 2 1/2 it repeatedly will not verify in
their system. After multiple attempts to remedy the issue within the call centers
dispatch remains concerned about the potential delay of emergency response services
for this area. And although Meridian police and fire are well acquainted with the area,
rehabilitation of the street, the great concern still remains the potential delay in the
dispatching portion. It is the recommendation of the Ada County Street Name
Committee and that of staff that Northeast 2 1/2 Street to be changed to Northeast 2nd
Street. The proposed change will affect one church and 31 dwelling units. All house
numbers could remain the same, as there is no duplication of numbers on the existing
Northeast 2nd Street. Staff has received a letter of opposition from two residents on
this street. These two residents were also in attendance at the neighborhood meeting
on Monday, July 30th, and they are in the audience tonight. Meridian fire department
strongly supports this change. This has actually changed since my staff report that
issued to you earlier in the week. After reading the dispatchers' problems with the
issue, they strongly support the change. Meridian Police Department is not opposed to
the change. And this concludes staffs recommendation and I will stand for questions.
Freeman: Thank you. Any questions of staff?
O'Brien: None.
Marshall: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
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August 2, 2012
Page 13 of 23
Marshall: I'd like to hear some kind of example of what kind of issues we are talking
about. I mean so you have got a 911 operator trying to put in two and one half with a
slash --
Ricks: Right. And it won't --
Marshall: But --
Ricks: Oh. Excuse me.
Marshall: -- I mean is every street just easily entered? Do they know how to spell every
street in the area? I mean how do they do that? I mean I'm trying to understand how
robust this system is and how specific it is, as in what kind of issues are with the
software. Because this is a major issue we are talking about doing to people and I'd like
to know a little more about it.
Ricks: Correct. The 911 -- this particular system has been in existence since 1995 and
although usually there aren't problems and when they punch in a street, even if it's
misspelled, there will be options. Little prompts will come up and they will be able to
choose those options. With 2 1/2 Street that prompt won't come up. We were hoping
that adispatcher -- the senior dispatcher Linda Britz could be here tonight, but she had
a family emergency. She is very equipped to explain how the system works. But 2 1/2
Street is extremely problematic, just because of that forward slash. So, what they have
to do is type in two and a half street and, then, it will pull up. Our question was to them
why is that a problem. But the problem remains that there are so many thousands of
calls going in there and it's hard for each dispatcher to remember that, that 2 1/2 Street
is really two and a half street. They said that the delay can be seconds, but there is still
the potential of delay and that's worrisome, too. The problem isn't at all with Meridian
fire and police, they have responded to this and found out from the neighbors they have
respond to this street on multiple occasions, but the worry is still there for the call
center. I don't -- I don't know why it is the way it is, to be honest. It just -- it will not
verify with the half in there.
Chatterton: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Marshall, I would like to add that even though
using half street and even quarter street -- it's fairly common in certain areas of the
country, say back east. It's exceptionally rare in this area. This is rare -- almost an
anomaly of a street name and so I think that that's another reason the dispatcher might
have an issue with remembering to enter it the right way. This slash simply denotes --
it's asymbol and it denotes something completely different than is intended. It shouldn't
really be part of the name of the street.
Freeman: Any other questions of staff?
O'Brien: I guess I will make a comment, Mr. Chair.
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 14 of 23
O'Brien: You know, it's -- I can appreciate exactly where they are coming from in the
fact that my name has an apostrophe that most computers will not recognize and,
believe me, when I go up there and tell them what my name is and how to spell it, they
can't find me in the computer system and I can appreciate -- relate to this issue. It's just
the way -- the design of the program period.
Freeman: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Was there anybody in the
audience that wished to testify on this item? Okay. You're welcome to come up.
Please state your name and address for the record when you reach the microphone.
Gardoski: My name is William Gardoski at 1620 East 2 1/2 Street, Meridian. Up until
Monday night I thought, basically, this was kind of an arbitrary thing where guys sat
around and we got nothing else to do, but I found out -- she explained a lot, the fire
department explained a lot of safety issues. I love 2 1/2 Street. It's unique. We get
giggles from everybody. But if it's a safety issue and there really is a legitimate safety
problem with them doing that, I'm not in opposition anymore. But I can't believe we are
the only people here. There is more that live on the street. But I was in opposition. But
I really appreciate the chance to come up and say this. We have no problem on the
computer or anything. I can't understand why they can't get that in there, but she said it
comes up to an intersection when they put in a slash and it shows an intersection and
the police chief -- the fire department explained a lot of things to me and really eased
my mind. I had passport issues and mail issues. I still think we will get mail sent to 2nd.
really do. But a lot of that's been alleviated, so -- and I really appreciate the chance to
even come here and talk a little bit. But unique -- it really is. I'll miss 2 1/2 if you decide
to change the name, but if it's for a legitimate reason and someone's life is at stake or
could be, then, we have no problem with that. But I love the uniqueness. I'll miss it.
Freeman: Thank you.
Rohm: Thank you, sir, for your testimony. That is very welcomed, I guarantee you.
Gardoski: Thank you.
Freeman: Anyone else wishing to offer public testimony on this item? Okay. With that
need a motion to close the public hearing.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: I move we close the public hearing on the street name change for 2 1/2 Street
to Northeast to 2nd Street.
O'Brien: Second.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 15 of 23
Rohm: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on the request for
street name change for Northeast 2 1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Public hearing is closed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: Discussion. Who would like to go first?
Marshall: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
Marshall: I was going to say I did appreciate the written testimony, read through it and
thought there were a lot of very good points made and I was very concerned about that.
I appreciate now even more that -- the verbal testimony recanting some of that and
identifying the fact that this could be a serious concern for safety for people on that
street. I am a little worried that, you know, we can't get in the 2 1/2 Street. I do teach
computers and I understand the forward slash and like that usually -- to me it connotes
another directory, rather than an intersection, but, yeah, I can see where that could be a
serious problem.
Freeman: Thank you. Anyone else?
Yearsley: Yes. I just wanted to thank the -- thank the gentleman that just talked about
-- you know, he was more concerned about safety versus the uniqueness of his name
and I appreciate his comments, so --
Freeman: Anyone else? Well, I'm going to comment on this one. I love the uniqueness
of your street name, too, and it bothers me. I really appreciate the fact that you went
and did your own investigation, talked to people, found out the reasons why some
things are being proposed, instead of just a knee jerk reaction. I really appreciate that.
In my mind what I'm weighing is not so much a really serious safety concern against
changing a street name, but a very minor safety concern. We are talking about seconds
of delay and a street name that is so unique that it is -- it's somewhat recognizable and
may just have to go on the record as voting against this, even though it may be
approved. The uniqueness of the name is -- it's a neat thing. I'm going to miss it, too, if
it goes, but I guess what bothers me about this is we are changing a street name
because of a tool of service that can't handle the name. It's like asking Commissioner
O'Brien to go change his name, because it has an apostrophe in it if some tools that
would record his name, even in a medical emergency, might not pick him up a few
seconds faster and just that principle of a tool wagging the dog bothers me. So, I'm
going to go on record as, no, I want 2 1/2 Street to remain in Meridian and I respect my
fellow commissioners differing opinions, but that's where I'm at. Anyone else?
Rebuttals?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 16 of 23
Marshall: Mr. Chair, I like your -- your thought there. You're swaying me in another
direction. To be honest, the question, though, I have is can it be just a few seconds or
could it be significantly longer if somebody just doesn't understand how to put it in? If
somebody doesn't figure out -- and a half street--
Freeman: Yeah. Commissioner Marshall, I --
Marshall: -- would it go further than, you know, ten, 15, 30 seconds. I worry about that.
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall, I understand that concern, but there are so many
things that can cause a few seconds or even a minute of delay when it comes to
communications in a stressful situation. I understand we are trying to eliminate as much
of that as possible and the concern is safety. I understand that. But I don't feel like
something like this -- voting against is flying in the face of public safety. I just feel like
this is one of those miniscule little things that it's maybe neither here nor there when it
comes right down to it. It's just my opinion. There are so many things that can happen,
like I say, in communications that cause a little delay. Somebody's fingernail getting
snagged in the keyboard. This is very minor in my mind. Very minor,
Marshall: I would, then, think back to -- we have had this system since '95. It's now
2012. That's 17 years we have had this issue. There have been EMS, fire, whoever,
called to that street multiple times per staff testimony. I'm -- I'm swaying your way. I
really am. I am swaying that way in that, you know, 15 or 20 seconds and we have
seen it over and over that it actually works. For 17 years it's worked. And as testimony
was written, it's pretty hard on a family to change everything they have got, all their
documentation. It is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to do that. I have had to do that.
When you move you change everything. Your bank statements, your driver's license,
everything has to be changed. That's typically a choice, but in this case you'd be
forcing so many residents to do that.
Ricks: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Yes.
Ricks: And Commissioner Marshall. May I comment?
Freeman: Please.
Ricks: I was concerned, too, actually, about --
Baird: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Yes.
Baird: Point of order.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 17 of 23
Freeman: Oh.
Baird: You want to reopen the hearing --
Freeman: For staff comment.
Baird: It's perfectly appropriate, but want to keep that in mind.
Marshall: Mr. Chair, I move that we reopen the public hearing on the proposed street
name change from Northeast 2 1/2 to Northeast 2nd Street.
Yearsley: Second.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to reopen the public hearing for the request for
street name change from Northeast 2 1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Everybody's in favor, we have reopened the public hearing.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: Staff had a comment and now you may offer it.
Ricks: Thank you. Let's hope it's worthwhile.
Chatterton: It better be.
Ricks: It better be. My boss just said it better be. Our concern, too, when we heard
about this -- and we have had repeated a-mails from dispatch about this issue. Most
times when dispatch has an issue, obviously, they are dispatch oriented and most times
they can remedy the situation within the call center. They can add prompts, they can do
different things. We have repeatedly asked them if this could be applied in this situation
and they have repeatedly said, no, although they have tried. The reason it came to this
point is that we took it before the street naming committee, they all unanimously said
that this is a concern. And so they are not a governing body, they are a recommending
body, and so you are the ultimate authority. But the concern we have is that dispatch
remains concerned that they are the delay, not that police and fire will be delayed,
because they don't know where it is, but that they themselves don't have the confidence
that they can dispatch in a timely manner and that to me says a lot. If they are
concerned that they can't do it, then -- then, that's probably a concern that we need to
consider. So, I'd just like you to consider that in your in decision. Thank you.
Freeman: Thank you.
Marshall: Mr. Chair, I 'd like to ask a question.
Freeman: Uh-huh. Commissioner Marshall.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 18 of 23
Marshall: In 17 years how many calls we have had to 2 1/2 Street?
Ricks: That I wish I knew. I would have to --
Freeman: She doesn't know.
Ricks: Any guess? I mean we'd say multiple calls, though; right?
Freeman: Actually, dispatch said they had not had very many. I don't know what very
many means, but when we spoke to Mr. and Mrs. Gardoski Monday night they said
there are multiple. They see paramedics down there often, because of someone with a
serious illness on their street. If there are delays I don't know how long the delays are.
Baird: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Yes.
Baird: I might offer up an option for the Commission to consider. It was mentioned that
there was a representative from Ada County dispatch who could not be here tonight.
Because of the questions said -- that are centering on their operations, perhaps you
might want to continue this to a hearing where you could have that person in attendance
and ask those questions before you reach a final decision. Just an option to consider.
Freeman: Perhaps. Thank you for reminding us of that option. Was there anybody
else in the audience now that we have the public hearing open again? I thought I was
being flagged down. Would you like to offer testimony on this item? Please state your
name and address for the record when you reach the microphone.
Erhart: I'm Milt Erhart. 9540 West Pebble Brook Lane, Garden City. And I swore
wasn't going to say a word about this tonight. And I know Scott here fairly well.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I own too much of 2 1/2 Street and one of these mornings
we hope to bring a very nice development to 2 1/2 Street and interestingly enough,
when we put the proposal together the architect used the nomenclature 2 1/2 Street,
because it was unique. And so we called it 2 1/2 Street Townhomes. So, for what it's
worth column, a few years ago I asked the city to change the name, because I didn't
think 2 1/2 Street was the appropriate name if you were going to do some development.
But we all change as we go through life and like this gentleman back here said, it's a
rather unique name and we thought the uniqueness might actually benefit the city, as
opposed to the standard street. And only recently did I know it was Northeast 2 1/2
Street. It's always been 2 1/2 Street. So, anyway, that's my testimony.
Freeman: Thank you. All right. So, we have heard from staff. We have heard from
one more person in the public that wished to offer testimony.
Yearsley: I actually have one more question, maybe, for staff.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 19 of 23
Freeman: Okay. Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: This software has been in service for 17 years. I'm assuming that there is
plans for an update coming soon? Maybe, maybe not.
Ricks: They have not mentioned that. We have asked them before and they have not
mentioned that, so --
Yearsley: Okay. Because after -- I'm not one to be sentimental, but I do appreciate
those that are, and, actually, listening to your testimony, Commissioner Freeman, that
do kind of have a tendency to maybe swayed a little bit as well, so at this point I'd
almost be recommending to continue this to next -- next time just so we can ask some
more questions.
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien?
O'Brien: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, my question of staff is exactly what is the
issue from dispatch? Is it entering that name or a confusion of how would they go about
telling the response people or the people that need to respond, the first responders, on
where it is? I mean exactly what is the issue there with them?
Ricks: The issue is actually -- Commissioner O'Brien, the issue is actually getting the
address to verify in the system and so they don't dispatch anyone until they verify this
address. The address -- if the dispatcher on duty happens to know that in Meridian 2
1/2 Street is spell out t-w-o a h-a-I-f, that will -- that will pull up. But what the senior
dispatcher said was she has heard multiple times 2 1/2 Street in Meridian won't -- won't
pull up. So, other dispatchers are having an issue with it, it's just over and over and
over again and it has been many years and they are concerned. So, it's not -- it's not
dispatching once they know, it's just getting that address -- getting 2 1/2 Street to pull up
in their system. Once that happens -- once they can verify that 2 1/2 Street exists and it
pulls up on their computer, they will dispatch and there isn't anymore delay. It's just that
initial -- that initial verification for them.
O'Brien: Thank you. My comment is this -- and I appreciate where they are coming
from, but in my own situation with the apostrophe, for instance, I'm not going to change
my name and I don't expect 2 1/2 Street to have to change because somebody cannot
enter that into a computer programming. I -- you know, again, 17 years or however long
the computer has been in existence, the code does exist to be able to put that in the
system for it to recognize 2 1/2, just like they would if they would recognize the
apostrophe in my name. And so it's a sore spot with me and I don't care -- the problem
exists with the dispatching system, not with the street name itself. And so I am pro not
changing anything, other than having someone in the system administrator to be able to
change their system input so it will recognize these odd names and the apostrophe, too,
for that matter.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 20 of 23
Freeman: So, since I have already thrown a wrench into this works, I will just throw in
another one. You know, here is another thought I had. And I'm just going to throw this
out there, too. If the name absolutely had to change, because there was a safety
concern -- again, you know where I stand, because I have said it and I haven't changed
my mind -- there may be a way to save some of the history of the name and still let it be
creative, yet change it, by doing something like calling it Two Point Five Street, all
spelled out, all words, no decimals, but still refer to what it was, retain some of that, still
make it creative, kind of odd, kind of strange -- it's just another thought I had on how do
you resolve this sort of thing. But where I stand right now is no on this change. So --
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: I think this whole thing is an exercise that we need to move forward with tonight.
The fact of the matter is -- I'm going to just take it from the other side of the coin. The
reference to the 17 years -- if it hasn't been fixed in 17 years it's probably not something
that's going to get fixed tomorrow and we are all about public safety each and every
time we sit behind this podium and if, in fact, we have 31 residents that end up with a
street name change from 2 1/2 Street to 2nd Street and everybody benefits from a
safety perspective and recognize that it wasn't done as something against them, it was
done for the community as a whole, then, let's move forward with it and get it off the
table and finish with it and it will be a memory that this meeting tonight lasted a half an
hour longer than necessary.
Freeman: Thank you, Commissioner Rohm, for pointing that out.
O'Brien: Mr. Chair, I disagree with that.
Rohm: Well --
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien, I will give you the floor. Commissioner Rohm, you
can respond if you want.
O'Brien: I just didn't agreement with that -- with that mind set. I think that -- that we are
going about this thing the wrong way. I think the technology exists to change the
programming much easier and simpler than it would be to try to go through all the hoops
and whistles and bells that they have to -- the residents have to go through to change
everything that -- documentation that they have and I just think it's the wrong way. I just
think that they -- we just need to address the problem where the problem exists and
that's with the program.
Freeman: Thank you, Commissioner O'Brien. I do agree with Commissioner Rohm that
we do need to move forward on this thing. I'm not sure how it's going to move forward,
but let's start by getting a motion to close the public hearing.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 21 of 23
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: I move that we close the public hearing on the request for the name change
from two -- Northeast 2nd 1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street by the City of Meridian
Public Works Department.
Yearsley: I'll second that.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing for the request for
street name change from Northeast 2 1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: We can still discuss or somebody can put a motion out there and we will see
what happens or we can continue the item.
Rohm: What I think is the appropriate -- okay. What I think is the appropriate thing is
I'm going to make a motion and if it doesn't get a second, then, we will go from .there,
but at this point in time -- Mr. Chairman?
O'Brien: Can I interrupt?
Freeman: Commissioner O'Brien. Sure.
O'Brien: Sorry. Is it possible -- maybe make it part of the motion, if we do continue it --
if we don't, fine. If it is continued to have someone from their IT department that has
knowledge of the programming problem or issues, what can be done or said to have --
maybe bring them here at the hearing so we can hear firsthand what those issues might
be?
Freeman: Yeah. I think that's what Mr. Baird was recommending or giving us the
option to do. Personally, I don't think that this necessitates a continuance. I'm not sure
that dispatch has more to say than what they have clearly put before us now. I think we
have the fact. It's a problem for them and asking them to come speak isn't going to
resolve that problem.
O'Brien: Well, I'm saying the programmer. It might be easier -- it might be just an easy
change. Who knows until you talk to a programmer.
Marshall: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 22 of 23
Marshall: Teaching software on a regular basis for the last 15 years I can tell you that
it's probably not an easy change. It's going to be a programming thing and you teach
your operators to work around it and I have been having to do that for years and they
tend to be able to do it and figuring personally seeing how this has seemed to have
worked out okay for 17 years, I have a tendency not to lean towards changing it at this
time.
O'Brien: I'm done.
Freeman: Thank you, Commissioner O'Brien, Commissioner Marshall.
Commissioner Rohm, back to you.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman, I move that we accept this request for street name change from
Northeast 2 1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street by the City of Meridian Public Works
Department with no changes and accept this request.
Freeman: Do we have a second?
Yearsley: I second that.
Rohm: Okay. I have a motion and a second to accept the request -- approve the
request for a street name change from Northeast 2 12 Street to Northeast 2nd Street.
All those in favor say aye. Opposed? I have two for, three against. The motion does
not pass.
MOTION FAILED: TWO AYE. THREE NAY.
Freeman: Could I get somebody else to offer a motion?
Marshall: Mr. Chair?
Freeman: Commissioner Marshall.
Marshall: I move that we deny the proposal to change the street name from Northeast 2
1/2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street.
O'Brien: Second.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to deny the request for a street name change
from Northeast 2 1 /2 Street to Northeast 2nd Street. All those in favor say aye.
Opposed? Three for, two against. The motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYE. TWO NAY.
Freeman: I think I need one more motion and, then, we can all discuss this later on.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
August 2, 2012
Page 23 of 23
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Freeman: Commissioner Rohm.
Rohm: I move we adjourn.
Yearsley: I'll second that.
Freeman: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. All those in favor say aye.
Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Freeman: We are adjourned.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:00 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
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