2012-04-03 Joint PZ Special Meeting~~i1il E IDIAN~-
IDAHO
CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL
PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION
JOINT MEETING
AMENDED
SPECIAL WORKSHOP AGENDA
Tuesday, April 3, 2012
City Council Chambers
33 East Broadway Avenue, Meridian, Idaho
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X_ Charlie Rountree X_ Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
X Tom O'Brien X Steven Yearsley
X Michael Rohm O Joe Marshall
X Scott Freeman -Chairman
(Convened at 5:42 p.m.J
5:30 p.m. - 6:45 p.m.
Discussion on the Future Land Use Designations for South Meridian
Adjourned at 6:48 p.m.
Meridian City Council & P&Z Joint Meeting Agenda -April 3, 2012 Page 1 of 1
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Meridian City Council-Planning & Zoning Commission Joint Meeting April 3, 2012
A joint meeting of the Meridian City Council and Planning and Zoning Commission was
called to order at 5:40 p.m., Tuesday, April 3, 2012, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, David Zaremba, Keith Bird, Brad Hoaglun
and Charlie Rountree.
Commission Members Present: Scott Freeman, Michael Rohm, Steven Yearsley, Tom
O'Brien and Joe Marshall.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
Roll-call
X Steven Yearsley X Tom O'Brien
X Michael Rohm X Joe Marshall
X Scott Freeman -Chairman
De Weerd: -- the delay of the start, but for the record it is City of Meridian City Council
and Planning and Zoning -- Planning and Zoning -- easy for me to say -- Commission
joint meeting. It is Tuesday, April 3rd. It is 5:40. Madam Clerk, we will start with roll
call attendance and, then, we will turn this over to Mr. Hood.
Discussion on the Future Land Use Designations for South Meridian
Hood: All right. Thank you all for attending this evening. My name is Caleb Hood, for
those of you that weren't at our first meeting at Mary McPhearson on February 22nd. I
work here for the city in the Planning Department. I do want to thank you for taking the
time out of your evening to participate in the second workshop for South Meridian --
South Meridian Visioning. I do want to -- before we get too far along --just make sure
everybody has an agenda and the four scenarios that were created at that meeting on
the 22nd. If you don't we do have some extra copies and Ican -- if you just want to
raise your hand. They should have been at all the seats at the table and we need one
back here, please. They should be at all the seats, though. It looks like everybody else
has a set. I do also, before we get going, want to thank the Mayor and Council for
attending, as well as the Planning and Zoning Commission. We are going to try to fit
this in in the middle of a couple of meetings for them. It is a recognized meeting.
Obviously, we have got -- took roll call and all that, but it is pretty informal. We do ask if
you have anything to say that you speak in the microphone. We are recording this
meeting. It will become part of the process for ultimately adopting future land uses for
the city onto our comprehensive future land use map, which there was a copy out in the
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April 3, 2012
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lobby before you walked in. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with that. So, that is the
overarching purpose of this project is to designate on the city's future land use map,
which also is back in the corner, by the way -- that area that, essentially, is displayed for
future planning area. That's why we are here now. We are trying to fill in that gap with
colors of land uses. We are not talking about zoning. We are not talking about
changing anything that's on the ground today. This is a future visioning process. But it
will help us as we implement and the city grows south and west of current city limits.
We will take what happens tonight -- we had the first meeting, as I mentioned, on the
22nd of February. We will take what happens tonight. We will start to really dig into
looking at services to provide for the future in south Meridian and, then, we will come
back for a third and hopefully final workshop in May, but we will talk about that in just a
little bit more. So, some of what goes into doing this -- obviously, I see some familiar
faces from that first workshop. We also have a technical advisor here for a project
advisory group that -- that looks at some of the technical sides of things. That also goes
into this equation of adopting land uses onto our map. We are currently in the process
of doing that. We haven't finalized anything, but we have composed and studied the
scenarios that were created at that workshop in February. We aren't going to make any
decisions tonight, but we do want to report back on what we heard and share with you
what the project advisory group did in composing and synthesizing a fifth alternative that
takes a lot of what we heard from that meeting and, then, presents that to you. We
didn't have that at your tables to start. We want you to listen to a little bit of this
presentation and, then, we will share that with you and we can discuss that and that's
what a majority of this meeting is for tonight. I do want to also reinforce our website. It's
a great way for you to stay informed. We try to keep it updated regularly with
information, so I would encourage you to go to meridiancity.org back slash you are the
map. All this information that you have so far and the stuff we will talk about tonight,
either already is or will be on the website in the coming days. So, again, I want to put a
plug in for that. So, back to why we are here tonight and some of the -- the four
scenarios and the fifth -- I'm going to reference that technical advisory group as a PAG.
That's what we call ourselves. The Process Advisory Group or the Project Advisory
Group. We -- we met about three weeks after the workshop and discussed some of the
factors -- some of the technical factors and I just want to quickly highlight some of the
other projects and studies that also need to be factored in as we move towards a
preferred land use scenario. The first one I want to highlight is the Ten Mile specific
area plan. Some you may have heard of that before. This is a project that the city did
in 2006 and 2007, adopted as part of our Comprehensive Plan. If you look at our future
land use map you can see that and the document is 50, 60 pages long and talks about
development in that area. And this subject planning area is project adjacent. So,
everything south and west of the Ten Mile specific area plan -- you can see how they
marry up the lines at the Ten Mile area. So, that's -- that's something just for some
background information. It's pretty intense what we have in the future vision for that
area. There is quite a lot happening there. So, that's something that needs to be
factored in as we look to south Meridian, because we do envision a lot of jobs, a lot of
housing, just a lot going on in there -- industrial, as you can see in the legend. Again,
I'm going to move through these fairly quickly and I would encourage you to look at
them a little bit more. The other study I wanted to let you know that plays a role in this --
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
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and I know some of you participated -- is Airport-Overland Road extension project. On
the screen are the five alternatives that were looked at through that study. That study
was just this last year. So, that whole study we put hyperlinks on our website, too.
Alternative 2-B was the preferred alternative that came out of that scenario. The way
this will tie in with our land use project is -- excuse me -- we will look at adopting an
alignment into the city's Comprehensive Plan concurrently with the land use plan. So, I
would encourage you to look at this, if you haven't already. If you have comments we
will have a comment sheet that we will share with you towards the end of the meeting.
We put a specific place there where you can put down some additional comments on
the Airport-Overland study. Real quickly something else that we factor in is collector
roadways on our master street map. We have worked with Ada County Highway
District to adopt a plan for what the cross-section looks like for all the arterials
throughout the future city limits of Meridian. You can see this area -- the blue
represents a residential arterial, which is a pretty typical cross-section. It's consistent
with most of the other roadways you will see ACHD constructing nowadays with five
lanes or three lanes on Victory currently, detached sidewalks, curb, and gutter. The one
thing I do want to point out is it also -- and I know it's hard to see a little bit, also
collector roadways that are shown on this map. Based on what we heard from you the
first go around and if that moves through the process as being pretty low density in this
area we may have to retook at -- or revisit some of those collector roadway networks.
We don't have any homes in there. There is no need for a collector. Which a collector,
basically, is -- in the hierarchy of roads it's a local road, collector, and, then, an arterial.
So, your arterial is a Fairview or an Overland, Amity, Lake Hazel are all arterials. Your
section line roads. But we have already asked ACHD and COMPASS and they have
done some preliminary modeling on these four scenarios. None of those scenarios
make a drastic impact on -- no lanes have to go to seven lanes or you don't need a
freeway or anything based on some of these scenarios. So, the CIP in the 20 year plan
at ACHD, no real impacts on the scenarios that were developed there. I do also want to
point out that COMPASS, the Community Planning Association of Southwest Idaho is
going through a similar process in the two county area right now. They've actually had
three workshops in Ada and Canyon counties just at the last of February and the first
part of March. They are using some of the same software we are, Community Biz.
They are, again, looking at the region -- a two county region. Those preliminary results
also linked on our website. Their scenarios for this area actually are real similar to what
you see here with what you guys came up with as a group on the 22nd. But, again, I
would encourage you to either go to our website and look at that or you can get it from
COMPASS's website as well and look at Communities In Motion plan is what it's called.
The only thing that I will call out just real quickly about that plan -- it does have a horizon
year of 2040, whereas our process there is no horizon year for the future city limits. It
could go as quickly or as slowly as the market and services can be provided in some of
these areas. So, I just want you -- if you can try to keep that in your mind as we go
through this process, that we really aren't shooting for, you know, where do we want to
be in 2025 or 2035. This could take some time to build this area out. So, if you can just
think that as a long range plan that will sure help the process. I do want to just quickly
point out a little bit more and something else that we have factored into this point and
we will have to do some more talking about -- at the technical level is -- is the Kuna city
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April 3, 2012
Page 4 of 19
limits and some properties that they have already annexed down in the southeast
portion of our study area. So, I will just leave that at that for now, but -- but we will have
to do some more talking about that and probably at our third workshop we will kind of
get into some of those details as well. And, then, the other big thing that factors in is
just our future sewer and water service. I think everybody sort of realizes that's a big
driving factor to the land uses out there. And Warren is going to -- Warren Stewart and
Public Works will be up in a little while to talk a little bit more about that. And so that's a
little bit of the background of what's happened thus far and some of the background
information and with that I will turn the microphone over to Susan Graham. She is
consulted with the city to help us on this project.
Graham: Thanks, everyone, for coming. We are going to try to cover a lot of
information quick, because the purpose of the meeting is to hear from you guys. So, if
you will bear with us until we work through just a few more things, then, we are anxious
to hear your input to where things stand so far. So, as Caleb said, my name is Susan
Graham and I'm working with the city to help with the planning process for this. And
that kicked off really on the February 22nd workshop and if you guys don't mind raising
hands of who attended that workshop, it will give me some sense of how much I need to
back pedal and talk about that. Good. So, I'm happy to see that a lot you came back
for more and I'm happy to see some new people that are also now in the process,
because we are hoping that between the three meetings we get a pretty diverse group
and we had about just under 40 at the last meeting or it looks like we have got quite a
bit more than that today, so thanks for coming. I'm going to talk a little bit about what
we did at the workshop, so you have all of the scenarios in front of you. I know you
have a lot of maps in front of you and it won't hurt my feelings if you're looking at down
at maps while I'm talking, I promise. So, we had four tables and those are our four
scenarios that we have developed so far, because they were the ones that came from
the folks who attended the workshop and this is what they look like. You remember the
lightest green color is what we were calling rural estate, which is the lowest level of
residential development. The medium green is low density. Yellow, medium density
residential. And, then, the tan and the red were -- tan being mixed use and red being
commercial. So, that's kind of the summary of where your sticky notes landed. And,
then, we -- the advisory group -- if you want to go to -- you can go to -- there. Yeah.
The advisory group took what you did and we broke down -- if you remember those
squares -- and those of you that weren't there, each Post-it note represented 40 acres,
which is a pretty big chunk of land, so the advisory group took those and broke it down
to the parcel level and all of those things that Caleb talked about, the engineering, the
water, the sewer, all the other planning, we took all of that into account and, then, drilled
down at the parcel level and took all the input from those four tables and created a
hybrid scenario and we are going to look at some charts that Brian has for us and --
pardon? And I just want you to see kind of how those different alternatives that you all
came up with compared to one that the advisory group made as a hybrid. So, you can
see going across the top first we are looking -- to my right is the population and we have
it broken out into adults and children, but, really, for practical purposes we just look at
the total and even -- don't even need to worry about the number, although it ranges from
about 3,000 to about just understand 30,000, which is a lot, but even just looking at the
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April 3, 2012
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size of the bars, these are from the tables from the meeting and this is the advisory
group. So, we were right about at the average if you were to compare all of the
populations. And, really, the population trickles down into a whole lot of other indicators
and impacts. One being schools. So, this just shows you the school requirements that
would be necessary to support any of those scenarios. And the number -- number of
jobs. And, then, percentage of farmland, which is something that we were looking at
rural and preserving some larger tracks of land is an interesting thing to look at. The
farmland box, which is red, and the blue bar represents farmland or prime ag land
reserved and protected. And, then, again, vehicle trips and all of these other water
usage -- they all really follow population, which is why I like to start with population. So,
I think -- I think that's probably good on the indicators. I wanted to mention that, again,
the workshop that we held on the 22nd, it started the work with everybody putting the
Post-its on and sort of painting land uses. Then the advisory group went back and we
huddled and we talked about the things that we need to consider at a parcel level,
taking that input, but, then, looking down at a much finer level of detail and, then, we are
coming back out tonight to present to you the hybrid or the advisory group
recommendation, with the purpose of getting your feedback on both those other four,
but also particularly the PAG group's recommendation. We will take your input from
tonight and we will incorporate it into our next meeting of that advisory group and we will
do our homework and do some more analysis and we will bring back to you a refined
preferred alternative, again, from additional input on May 29th. So, that's kind of where
we are heading and after that we still have the adoption process. So, there is still
additional opportunity for public input and comment at that point when the comp plan
amendment is adopted. So, that's kind of where we are going and I think you might
have seen a timeline that showed you are here. We are still pretty early in the you are
here and I know there is a lot of stuff to read and look at, so we are going to continue to
receive input and comments via the website tonight, but also via the website over the
next couple weeks. So, you will have plenty of time to provide your input, your vision,
and any other concerns or comments that you might have about the south Meridian
planning area. So, with that I think I'm turning it back over to Caleb.
Hood: So, just a couple of things. We are going to -- as Susan mentioned when she
started, the May meeting is to present this information. I hope you all have a chance
now to see the PAG hybrid that was referenced previously. We have a comment sheet
that we are going to hand out here shortly. Just a couple of other things to keep in mind
as you prepare to comment back on this hybrid. I wanted to -- to reiterate and for some
of you -- about half of you this will be new information. We do have a new designation
that we are playing with in this process and that is our rural estate designation. It was
pretty popular in the workshop. It's still -- even in the PAG there is a pretty substantial
portion of south Meridian that is shown as that rural estate and I do want to just give a
little definition to what that is and the main difference. Susan mentioned preserving
some farm ground, that was some of the reason for adding that into the repertoire of
land use options that we do at the city. The main difference between the two shades of
green, the darker being a low density and the lighter shade being the rural estate, is
really -- if you go to that type of rural estate you're not probably ever going to have city
services -- City of Meridian services out there. It's -- we are talking five acre -- two acre
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April 3, 2012
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lot sizes or bigger. That's really what that designation means. So, as you use that -- if
you can keep that in mind, it's really an urban boundary. Anything in green -- the darker
green you're kind of at that floor where it really pencils out for a municipality to provide
you services over time. If you're talking five acre lots, it just does not make financial
sense to extend those services to those types of areas. But that really is -- and I want
to make it clear, too, that the darker green isn't -- it's not a, you know, 2,500 square foot
lot size either. It equates more to your half acre, one acre lot size. It's not something
that is, you know, a downtown type density. So, just so you understand, that
designation means zero up to three dwelling units per acre. But it's anywhere in that
range. So, I don't -- there is a lot of overlap in those two designations. One is low and
one's just really low. So, I just -- I wanted to reiterate that. And, then, did also want to
let you know that we invited some additional folks to participate tonight. You all that
signed up at the first meeting, you should have received an invite from Parametrics to
this meeting or else you probably wouldn't have got here. But we did also reach out to
some additional developers that the city typically does business with and trying to make
this -- not that you aren't -- we don't value your input or opinion, but just a little well
rounded group and get some more input into this process. So, we did reach out to a
little bit larger stakeholder area and are now going to ask them to comment on the
scenario that -- that we up to this point have really come up with. So, just did want to let
you all know that. And I think with that just some other things to think about and I'm
going to turn it over to Warren to talk a little bit about services.
Stewart: Good evening, everyone. I want to take the opportunity -- I'm going to stand
over here, because I'm going to point to a few things up here on this map. But I want to
take a few minutes to talk a little bit about utility services. As part of this process I have
been involved, but we have also been working at the Public Works Department on sort
of a parallel effort to get a better understanding of extending services to this area and
what it might take and what the limitations and so forth might be. So, I'm not going to
spend a lot of time talking about water services, because the way the City of Meridian
currently provides water services to -- we utilized groundwater. We strategically place
wells throughout the city in order to provide water service and we believe that that same
scenario or that same model will work for this south Meridian area. There is some water
quality challenges out there, but those can be dealt with through some treatment
options and so forth. So, we -- I'm not going to spend a lot of time discussing that. But
what I would like to talk a little bit about is the sewer service for this area and I want to
focus my remarks on this area, but Idon't -- and I want to talk a little bit about our
existing master plan for this area, but I want to be careful, because I want you to know
that even though we have an existing master plan for this area we are willing to change
that based on the input that we receive from this group that's certainly not set in stone
and we -- I just want to bring that up and I'm going to discuss that a little bit tonight,
because I want to provide some context and so forth for some other things that I would
like for you to consider as we move forward in this process. Topography is an important
part of providing sewer service to an area. If we look at this map, the topography of this
area generally flows -- well, it generally flows in this direction. There is drainage basins
and I want you to look at these brown -- these heavy brown lines. This is our existing
master plan and these heavy brown lines that you see here designate drainage basins
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page7o119
or sewer sheds and currently we plan to extend sewer trunk lines up these drainage
basins to serve this particular drainage basin and bring it back over here to the --
essentially the Meridian impact area or boundary and, then, we will use big regional lift
stations to pump that back up over the hill to gravity sewer mains, which will eventually
take it to the wastewater treatment plant. And this is another drainage basin right
through here. This one is actually subdivided, but you can see these drainage basins
are designed to flow this direction and in order to make it economically feasible we need
to be able to utilize gravity flow for sewer service as best we can. It's also important to
recognize, like Caleb mentioned, that in order for this to be economically feasible to
extend sewer service we need approximate densities of about three dwelling units per
acre. Now, that doesn't mean everything has to be three dwelling units per acre, but in
a drainage basin, you know, we need that approximate density to be about three
dwelling units per acre or it's simply not cost effective to reach out and serve those
areas. We couldn't -- we would have to create special assessments or special fees for
that particular area, otherwise, people outside of the boundary would be subsidizing
development in that particular zone. Yes. You had a question.
Person: (Unintelligible) see the Amity, Lake Hazel, Victory lines there, the north-south
roads, where -- like where is Meridian Road on that map?
Stewart: Wow. I got to stand back, because when I get close I can't see.
Person: Right there?
Stewart: Yeah. That's right there. So, Meridian -- where is -- Ten Mile has got to be
about right here.
Person: What is the one on the far left (unintelligible).
Stewart: This is McDermott.
Person: McDermott.
Stewart: Yeah. That's the boundary.
Person: And what's the bottom (unintelligible).
Person: Lake Hazel.
Stewart: Yeah. Lake Hazel, Amity, Victory, Overland right there. And, then, down here
we have actually cut it off -- there we go. McDermott, Black Cat, Ten Mile, Linder and
Meridian. Thank you. So, I got to get back to where I was. Sorry about that. Anyway.
So, if land use -- if land use decisions in an area create a situation where we have less
than three dwelling units per acre or they isolate an upper section of a drainage basin --
and Ikind of want you to understand this concept, because you will see why this is
important when I throw the next map up, which is going to show a compilation of all of
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April 3, 2012
Page 8 of 19
the decisions or the discussion that was had at the last meeting. If this is one drainage
basin and we come part way up the drainage basin and there is an area or a large
section of that area which has a density that does not support extending services to it, it
could -- go back. It could, ostensibly, affect the ability of the city to serve the upper
portion of that drainage basin. So, these are just some things that I think are very
important that you keep in mind, because they will affect -- these decisions can affect
the ability to serve that forever, because if we have an area that's designated with a --
say adensity that's less than what our three dwelling units per acre, in our master
planning effort for the sewer system we will not plan to extend services to that. As a
consequence, the infrastructure that we will build to serve that area will not be sized to
accommodate it. So, even if we wanted to 50 years down the road, our ability to serve
that area may be forever impacted and if individuals who own land in those areas
change their mind ten, 20, or even 50 years later, their land, as well as salability, could
be impacted by the ability to receive or not receive municipal services. So, just want to
make sure everybody thinks these things through as they are considering this process.
We are happy to accommodate whatever the folks -- the citizens want and the people in
this planning effort want to do, but I want to make sure that everybody realizes some of
the things that could be a result of that. I also wanted to make sure that I sort of
highlighted one other thing. You will notice this particular drainage basin is divided into
two sections. Go ahead and go to the next slide. The Public Works Department, in an
effort to try and balance what you guys came up with in the first meeting, what -- with
what seems to make some sense with regards to sewer service, has sort of taken a look
at what might be feasible from a sewer drainage basin standpoint. This area was,
essentially, indicated on -- in this -- in the first meeting as being really low density
residential and we could sort of accommodate that through the sewer master planning
process. However, there was another section -- if you wouldn't mind backing up one
slide. This portion of the drainage basin here that was -- had some mixes of higher
density and lower density in there. We anticipate -- although the City of Meridian would
own and operate all the collection systems for our sewer, that we would likely take
whatever we collected in this area and send that via lift station to the Kuna wastewater
treatment plant. Now, that's all -- you know, we have talked to the city of Kuna about
that, but certainly there is a lot of I's that's got to be dotted and T's that have to be
crossed before that's feasible. But I did want you to sort of keep in mind that these
drainage basins exist. Sewer services need to be economically feasible. The ability to
provide sewer service or not can impact the developability of ground long into the future.
And the last item that I want to make sure that I point out is that even though we would
designate this or potentially could designate this area, have a really low residential area
and the City of Meridian would not plan to serve that area, there is currently nothing --
except for the good will between the cities -- that would prevent Nampa or Kuna from
annexing and serving that area in the future. So, even though we would plan that, our
best laid plans, just so you know, it wouldn't be our fault, may go for naught if one of the
other communities decided that they wanted to do that. We have no knowledge that
they would do so. And I wouldn't want to lead anybody to believe that, but it could
happen. State statute is currently -- currently does not prevent that. So, with that said, I
would stand for any questions that you might have.
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 9 of 19
Hood: I promise we are almost done. And, in fact, we are going to hand out comment
sheets right now and we want to take some comments on -- on sewer or any other
questions or comments you have on the PAG scenario that was handed out this
evening, which is the hybrid scenario. I do want to call your attention to a couple of
things. As these comment sheets are handed out take your time tonight, you can stay
here and fill it out, hand it in, you can take it back and fill it in. You know, sleep on it,
whatever comments you have we will take those. A couple of things on those comment
sheets I would like you to pay particular attention at is the -- the mixed use types. So,
we have two areas that are designated mixed use on the plan and the city has three
different types of mixed use areas and so we'd like to know what type of mixed use area
you envisioned when you said mixed use or commercial there. I will point out that all
mixed use areas is a mix of different uses. So, you have commercial and residential,
but there is a hierarchy to those as well and on each table there is kind of a quick what
we call cut sheet that explains the mixed use neighborhood, mixed use community, and
mixed use regional. So, it is really in the name that some of it's neighborhood level
services, a coffee shop, a sandwich shop, some of those types of things, all the way up
to a regional level commercial thing, which would be like a Costco type. Now, people
will drive four, five, six, seven miles to go to that. So, if you could help us out with that
in your comment sheet with what level of mixed use. Also something that the PAG
needs a little is bit of help with -- there were three out of the four tables that designated
this area along Black Cat for that -- that uber low -- the really low density residential and
we just want to make sure we got that right. It looks a little out of place. When you kind
of put everything together you still have a sliver of that ultra low density there. So, if you
could spend a little time on that. And, then, parks. We are asking you to pick good
locations you think for future parks. So, if you could pay particular attention to that. And
Airport-Overland, obviously, is on the comment sheet, too, which we alluded to before.
So, Susan, we are going to go ahead -- and I would ask if you have any comments for
everyone we are going to pass the mike and you get, you know, three minutes. We
have a solid 40, 45 minutes, so I think we will have plenty of time, but I would ask you to
speak into the mike and we will go around and pass those around and, please, be
courteous when someone has the mike, too, and listen, be respectful. Thank you.
Person: With the Ada County -- can you hear me? With the Ada moratorium on how
many residential lots you can have per acre, there is a moratorium on that right now in
the area of the low density and the area of the estate rural, so how are they going to
address that?
Hood: I'm not -- I'm actually not familiar with that moratorium that you reference, so --
Person: The moratorium is right now in that area of low density that's -- for instance,
South Black Cat to Victory and so on, there is --due to low utilities there is a moratorium
on how many residential (unintelligible) you could put on so many acres.
Hood: Right. Okay. You used moratorium and so I was thinking that they weren't
allowing city development. But there is -- Ada County -- currently you can develop in
the county, but you have to have county densities, sewer and -- or a septic system, so
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 10 of 19
that that -- there is -- try to give a quick explanation of that. So, obviously, you need
municipal services to get the densities. The DEQ won't allow you to do community
septics and wells unless you're at certain lower densities. So, this doesn't rectify any of
that. That would be developing in the -- the near term and we are talking longer term,
so this really doesn't change any of that county code or zoning regulations, it is, again,
for the future in that area.
Graham: One thing to keep in mind is on our Project Advisory Group we do have Ada
County planning staff, so we will bring -- we can talk with them and make sure we just
address that even as a frequently asked question, because he is participating -- their
department -- planning department is participating in the process, so --
Person: Yeah. And I just wanted to bring that up. You're stating, you know, three
residents per acre in the future, whereas right now that's -- you just can't do it.
Hood: Right. And that would be assuming that we get city services and you're
annexed, so, then, the county rules don't apply anymore. You have got -- the sewer is
there, so you can develop to those densities. So, that's the difference between the
county and the city.
Zaremba: I would just make the point for anybody that's worried that the City of
Meridian does not forcibly annex people. It would be up to the property owner to decide
whether they wanted to go this direction and apply for annexation. So, today the county
rules apply, because it isn't City of Meridian and it would be up to each property owner
or group of property owners, hopefully, to decide whether they wanted to request
annexation or not, which would allow the greater densities and put our planning into
effect. So, I just wanted to make sure that it's not forcible. This is voluntary and,
actually, the city kind of reacts to what the property owner wants.
Person: Take the chance to be here in front of everybody. I was at the first workshop
and I'm a little disappointed that on this PAG recommendation there is no commercial
property on here at all and that bothers me for one item. The other thing is I would
encourage all you people to get on the ground -- get some mud on your boots and kind
of look at what's going on around here. This commercial center right here is owned by
the school district for a school. I don't think that's going to be a neighborhood use. Also
we are getting a traffic signal from the highway. (Unintelligible) sold their right of way,
we sold our right of way, they are putting a traffic signal in. So, there is a lot of different
things going on on the ground out there that I think you guys are really missing and that
would be my point, to get on the ground, get some mud on your boots, go and knock on
doors and see what's going on out there, otherwise behind a desk and a computer.
Graham: Thank you for reminding me that I forgot to explain something about
commercial. There actually is commercial in the PAG recommendation, but we didn't do
a good job of telling you that. So, I will do a better job now. This tanned area is all
mixed use, which allows for commercial development, and we have anew --anew
board here tonight, because the City of Meridian has three -- well, more than three.
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 11 of 19
There is five mixed use designations in the city, but we have recommended three
potential commercial mixed use areas, which would include a medium or higher density
residential, as well as commercial development, so you could have -- neighborhood
mixed use would allow you to have things like a dry cleaner, a grocery, a drug store,
walkable things that tend to be a mile or so draw in terms of the households.
Community commercial -- or community mixed use would have six to 15 acres -- or six
to 15 units per acre and about 50 percent would be developed -- or 40 percent would be
developed as retail and 20 percent as residential and that would be for more medium
skill services, offices, things that you might drive three miles -- more auto oriented. And,
then, the final one is regional. Regional mixed use would allow you to have a significant
amount of retail, much higher density residential, like apartments or townhouses or
other multi-family, and big box type, Target, Walmart, Fred Meyer, Costco type
development. So, we didn't do a good job of explaining that the tanned areas could
accommodate the level of commercial that everybody suggested would be appropriate
or could be appropriate in south Meridian. So, I'm very sorry that I didn't hit on that
sooner. And that we located those in the same spot, really, as all four groups. They
were primarily loaded along Ten Mile -- Ten Mile and Amity, then, up at Ten Mile-
Overland-Airport, that extension of the new road and I-84. So, that was really where the
majority of commercial was suggested by the group that came to that first workshop.
Person: So, my comment has to do with urban sprawl and the question as to how much
collaboration the City of Meridian has done with other communities that have had this
happen, where cities mesh together and no longer have country in between and we are,
as I'm sure everybody in here is aware, we are in a high desert climate and, you know,
the concerns for water and things like that on neighborhood grass come into play, so --
Hood: Yeah. I can answer some of those, I think. PAG, the Process Advisory Group
that I mentioned, has members from Kuna, as well as Nampa, Ada County, so bringing
some of the local agencies -- we didn't reach out to folks that aren't directly adjacent to
this area. Certainly I'm familiar with some of the issues, though, in other parts of the
country even, you know, the Vegases, and those that are -- that are also desert and
have sprawl and water issues. It does factor in certainly. We are pretty confident that
we can provide services to this area. We do want to do it in a smart fashion, you know,
we don't want to leap frog out there and -- and develop backward, so we do want it --
and state -- state law won't allow us to do that. We have to be contiguous to current city
limits before we can annex another property in. So, there are some checks and
balances and, again, there are some technical things that go into this to make sure that
we do the best we can anyways to make sure we don't run into some of those issues
that you alluded to.
Graham: Just so that it's easy for everyone to see everything in one place, Brian put up
-- these are the four scenarios that came up at the workshop and, then, this -- the larger
screen is the current advisory group recommendation. So, that way you have some
visual reminder of what you're looking at. So, again, anything that shows up in red or
tan on these is going to show up just as tan on the large screen, on the advisory
committee recommendation, and it is also important to note that mixed use could
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 12 of 19
incorporate, accommodate public spaces like schools and parks. So, they don't
necessarily have to be counter, that there would be a school and a mixed use area. In
fact, it would be very desirable to have some kind of adjacent use like that. So, next.
More questions?
Person: Okay. Yeah. I was just wondering if everything we have seen tonight is on
your website.
Hood: Yes, sir. It's not currently. We didn't want people to cheat and go there before
this meeting tonight, but tomorrow we will put this up there. You have hard copies. If
you need additional hard copies give me a call, contact me, I can get you additional
copies. So, yeah, everything so far will be, by close of day tomorrow -- right, Brian?
Will be on the website, so --
Person: Does that include the --the stuff -- he was talking about the sewer stuff?
Stewart: The two drawings that you saw up there will be -- will be done as part of the
same presentation. So, it will all be put up there together.
Person: The PAG plan right there, if you look at Amity Road and -- between Meridian
and Linder on the south side of Amity Road, that's right where I live and that kind of
swiggly line goes right through the middle of my property and just to the east of that
that's showing yellow, the low density -- or medium density residential -- right there.
Yeah. That's where the radio station is and I don't know if you're figuring taking that
down, but I don't see medium density residential being right there where the radio
station is. Now, I personally wouldn't mind medium residential where I am, which
proceeds to the west of that and, then, goes onto the white area on the other side of the
ditch right there. That -- that area follows the ditch, so my property is partly in whatever
is to the east and partly in whatever is to the west and I will and Idon't -- I mean that's
personal for me. I'm sure most people in here don't care, but I don't even know for sure
-- I guess the stuff east of the ditch right there is already in this other plan or whatever?
Hood: Yeah. If I can clarify. So, the study area -- the red line indicates sort of where
we have designated the end of this, but certainly your comments -- we can -- we can
still evaluate that and it is outside of our study area, but you bring up some good points
about land uses and if they are consistent with each other and I certainly know of the
radio tower, but I haven't really talked to them about their long range plans, if they are
going to be there or -- forever or what. Back to the study area, those certainly it -- you
probably have the most at stake here, but I think everybody -- at least speaking for
myself, I care what you envision for the property. That's why we invited you here
tonight. Hopefully, you don't just care about yours and you look at it as an entire region,
but -- but certainly -- and those properties right there -- I mean if you -- again, we kind of
have a bunch of different things we have to evaluate as we paint these future land uses.
Does -- does that ultra low make sense sort of in that -- that same area as a whole? I
mean you already have some parcels that are kind of on the smaller side and you got
the lower density here and the lower density here, so should this area be higher -- you
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 13 of 19
know, the lower density. Just some things that -- we didn't make as a recommendation
as a PAG, because we heard it pretty consistently from you all during the first workshop
that you want it to be rural estate, but, again, we are bringing everybody to the table
now and -- and trying to hear those voices. So, I would encourage you -- that's why you
have comment sheets. You know, if it's your property certainly make sure it's included.
We'd ask you to comment on the general feel of the plan, too, for other people's
property, so -- I don't know if you had a follow up there or not, but --
Person: No. I was just confused about how that could be medium density residential,
because I -- I mean I have talked with the radio tower owner a time or two and I don't
think they are figuring on going anywhere for awhile. So, I'm not sure exactly what that
will mean to that specific area, but --
Hood: We can look at that some more. Again, it won't -- there won't be a change with
the outcome of this process on that, but we can certainly look at that moving forward.
Person: Just kind of a general question. It's along the lines of -- what's going to trigger
the development of city services like sewer and water? Is it going to be developers
coming in and they will trigger that or is the city going to come in and say, okay, we are
going to have a master plan, this is how we are going to go about doing this. Just kind
of curious. What would the triggers be on that?
Hood: So, the question was what are the triggers for development and you hit on it. I
mean a lot of it is -- somebody mentioned previously -- I mean the city does react a lot
of times. The market -- we will say, you know, this is -- we need to build more homes
here, the people want homes, and they work with our Public Works and planning staff to
say, okay, what -- we use our comp plan as that guide and there is a sewer and water
master plan. A lot of that infrastructure, though, isn't tied to a year, a horizon year. You
have a five year plan, which you're pretty confident in where you're going to do things in
the next few years, but we do react a lot of times to when development occurs and a lot
of the infrastructure is put in by developers. So, we have a plan in what size it needs to
be and where it needs to go, but a lot of that -- a lot of that gets put in by development.
So, I hope that answers your question. Warren, I don't know if you have anything you
want to add to that.
Stewart: No. I think generally that is true. Infrastructure is put in to accommodate
growth and development. There are a few exceptions when we have to reach out and
provide big regional infrastructure in order to accommodate growth in an area, but
generally speaking it's all growth -- or growth or development driven.
Person: I was just kind of curious. On that extension of Overland. We were told one
time that they might -- the city might buy their property -- or the right of way and, then,
we were told again that, no, they wouldn't, it would be a developer. So, that's the same
thing you was talking about?
Hood: Yeah. I can address that. Right now the plan is for as those properties develop
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 14 of 19
that the right of way necessary -- and the actual construction of the road would happen
through development means. So, the city or the Ada County Highway District does not
have any plans to construct that. Now, I will say if by chance you get, you know, from --
from both sides and you got something constructed and maybe there is one piece right
in the middle that prevents you from -- from finishing out an entire mile, I could foresee
the ACHD coming in and saying we need to purchase, you know, a 50 foot wide strip or
whatever it is, to make this connection, so we get at mile long strip. But, no, the vision
is for it to be developer driven. And that would just be a hypothetical. I'm not saying
that's what would happen, but -- but, yes, it's development driven.
Graham: One thing that --one of the questions reminded me of -- we have more copies
of that map and they are on the table and they are also on the website. If you want to
draw your comments on the maps, in addition to providing them in writing, we would
love to take them that way. It's just as easy for us to look at specific things -- if you want
to circle like what you mentioned, that would be great. We would encourage that people
do that. So, don't feel like you can't get another copy of that and you don't want to ruin
a copy you have, because we can get more of those. So, feel free to write -- if you want
a direct response to it you do just need to put your name and a way to reach you,
preferably a-mail, so that we can follow up.
Hood: Another way that you will also notice we have got the -- the legend on there, so
you can reference quadrants, too. If you're A-1 or whatever you can -- you can
reference on your comment sheet back to the map, so you can use them
interchangeably.
Seal: Caleb, I guess I'm trying to understand the logic of why you would use -- do
mixed use when you're surrounded by residential and I don't know if some of the people
here understand what's mixed use, that you will -- as I'm understanding you -- be
required to put residential in there. I can see the need for dental, grocery stores, but I
question the logic of requiring residential in there when you have got hundreds of acres
surrounding you where you could do that. So, I guess I have a question and also make
sure that people are clear on that -- in my own opinion I would go more towards
commercial than mixed use or allow people to waive the residential requirement,
whether it's through a development agreement or something, if they so choose.
Hood: Yeah. That's a good question. We can kind of slice this two different ways. You
could potentially -- well, we heard from folks -- yeah. We could potentially put
commercial along the arterials or at the corners. We heard that from some tables, too.
So, that is an option. The option you mentioned. You still want to have a transition.
You still -- you don't want to have -- typically you don't want to have, you know, a major
retailer abutting right up to low density residential. So, you would still want to feather
that and we thought --
Person: (Unintelligible).
Hood: Correct. And that's -- that's, essentially, what you could get out -- out of the
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 15 of 19
mixed use as well. Some of the densities and -- this is where we do need your help. If
we are all wet and you want to do it that way, that's fine, too. Comment on that. I would
-- you can, though, in the -- in the neighborhood level, mixed use, it's a little more
intense, but six dwelling units per acre is sort of that transition we envision in that area
and, again, it's not -- it doesn't -- it's not the entire area, you would still have some
commercial, but you could feather that area, too, and we thought it would just be a little
bit -- add a little more flexibility to put the mixed use designation in there, rather than
saying this is commercial, then, medium, then, low and kind of feather it out that way.
So, it's a good comment and you -- like I said, you could go either way with it. This we
thought would just add a little more flexibility in how you could get there and provide
some of those commercial needs that we heard from everybody, but not tie it to a
specific site of an intersection. You know, within this whole area when you have some
commercial and whether that be along an arterial or right at all four corners of an arterial
or all eight -- you could kind of work it in that way and we would react, then, when
somebody annexed with a development plan, so --
Person: Yeah. Also you would do the same transition (unintelligible).
Hood: Right. So, the other option would be to put commercial say at a corner, put L-O
around it, and, then, put medium density around that. It's -- it's slightly different, but it's
in the same vein, so that certainly is an option. And in fact -- I mean everything is an
option for you. You can -- you could tell us what you told us the first time. We just -- we
just combined these all into one option to, hopefully, get everybody moving on the same
lines and make tweaks, but if you are really adamant about what you had and that was
the only plan, then, you can comment to that effect that we really like table two and go
back to that. So, it's a good point, Jonathan. Thank you.
Freeman: Caleb, I think I just need -- I'm sorry. I think I just need clarification on two
things I heard that may be conflicting. And the thing I heard was regarding the sewer
systems development. We had to be at least three dwelling units per acre to make that
feasible. The way we had described this low density residential was half acre to one
acre lots, which wouldn't meet that. So, is the intent to provide sewer services is
everything that is the medium green or is it to provide sewer services only to those
mixed use and higher density areas?
Hood: That's a good question. And I'm sorry for that confusion. It is a little bit -- and
Warren touched on it a little bit. What we really need to do is look at those sewer
sheds. We need to break it down in the sewer sheds and if you take all of the people
from that sewer shed, you need to come up with at least three dwelling units per acre.
So, you could have some that at your six dwelling units and some that are acre lots or
two acre lots. As long as the total in that area comes up to about three dwelling units on
average, then, you can still make it pencil. So, what we would really be looking at is
breaking it down to those sewer shed levels if you're looking at hitting that target three
dwelling units per acre. Again, that's not everything needs to be three dwelling units an
acre -- two, four, six --one. You know. So, it's that average.
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 16 of 19
Person: My question is is anybody thinking about how Ten Mile serving the Kuna area
as in the way of Eagle Road servicing Eagle. Looking at PAG's plan here it doesn't look
like they are thinking anything about Kuna being, you know, south of Ten Mile. I don't
see much commercial there. I see this mixed use. I don't know if that's enough mixed
use. And, then, seeing these -- the way that the land is laid out -- I don't understand
how PAG is looking. It looks like it's anti-business, anti-growth.
Hood: Again, that -- I mean that PAG scenario is a hybrid, so this is, essentially, what
we heard from the people that attended on the 22nd. We do look at -- obviously, with
the new interchange at I-84 it's going to -- it already has changed the nature of the area.
Kuna is planning for things south of Lake Hazel, so they have some other commercial
needs. Certainly we are not anti-business, but looking at what we heard from the
stakeholders that came and participated in the first go around, you don't have a lot of
homes out there, so the need for commercial in that general vicinity isn't real high.
That's why you just don't have a lot of those commercial opportunities.
Person: (Unintelligible), but looking at this scenario it doesn't seem like there is much
growth (unintelligible) and depending on what Kuna does with their area, if they put a
bunch of residential homes in there (unintelligible).
Hood: Absolutely. I don't disagree with that at all. There is definitely a rural flavor to
this scenario.
De Weerd: Caleb? You know, it's also important to keep in mind what's going on north
of I-84. That has a lot of commercial and employment area to it. The estate and the --
the different housing types is certainly to also serve that higher concentrated area for
jobs and creating housing for a work force and those kind of things. So, it just -- it's just
one small piece of a much larger picture and it also compliments things that are really
not offered in our community right now. If you want to live in Meridian and you like
estate -- an estate lot, you don't have any -- there isn't any choices in Meridian to stay
with that mailing address. So, this is a unique area that offers some choice that you
don't have much of in the community as it is. Just another perspective.
Graham: Yeah. And that was an important thing to add, because we did do an
economic -- just a real high level economic analysis of how much commercial could this
area sustain, given the population that could be expected out there and given the
surrounding areas that are already zoned for that and that is one reason why there
doesn't appear to be that much, it's because there is already so much within a regional
draw of where someone might develop that already exits in the Ten Mile corridor. So,
we did take it into account and we did sort of have a -- a general cap of what we thought
this area could sustain in terms of additional commercial development or employment.
Person: I guess my concern would be that estate planning on a major road like Ten
Mile. To me maybe Black Cat or Linder would be a better option for that, as in the way
of Ten Mile servicing Kuna, Amity servicing Nampa, I would think that that area would
probably be better off with more commercial and more I guess mixed use.
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 17 of 19
Graham: And you can see that -- I think it's table four had Ten Mile pretty heavily
commercial all the way, just as you are suggesting. The difference there is that those --
every single square you see is 40 acres. That's a lot of commercial. So, whether or not
there is some other things, as Caleb suggested, that there is commercial on the arterial
and not at full lot depth or whatever or at full section depth would be something else that
really could be accommodated under the mixed use and what we are looking at right
now is really population traffic generators and those kinds of things and our version of
mixed use and that kind of commercial development on the frontage and transition of
residential towards the back would be a similar traffic and population generator as what
we are showing. So, for comparative purposes what we are showing would achieve
those.
Person: Okay. I was looking here and seeing that it looks like we have total jobs and,
then, total residents working and it looked like it was pretty low. So, I would think that
would consider putting in more businesses for more jobs that would support the area. I
imagine that Eagle Road itself generates a ton of taxes for Meridian.
Graham: And I don't have an answer to the last part of that, but I think you're probably
right. But there is a very large population -- or workforce draw to the north and that --
the majority of that is for employment centers and this whole area is only nine square
miles, so it's not a very long distance. Did you want to -- okay.
Person: Warren, could you come up here with me? One of the things that might be
really beneficial in all the planning --
Person: I don't know about that.
Person: -- is that if you look at what the gravity is and you got the big Kuna sewer plant
down here, all this here will gravity down to Kuna. So, may be one of the considerations
that you guys think about, the gravity very close to where the Kuna sewer plant is. As I
kind of mentioned in the presentation, this -- this sewer sub basin right here, that you
see bounded by these dark lines, that's what we are essentially looking at and, then, the
next slide. So, this is the part that we sort of said, well, based on the original -- or based
on the information that we obtained at the first meeting this was sort of that estate area
the people wanted to reserve. So, we are sort of thinking that this area right here that's
part of this sewer shed, that this is sort of the northern boundary of that. But that, in
fact, would -- although we would own and operate the collection system, that the
effluent from that would eventually be sent down to the Kuna wastewater treatment
plant and we would have some sort of agreement with them -- a wholesale agreement
to treat that effluent.
Person: You know, going back to that Ten Mile that you're talking about, you know, I
have got the gas station at the corner of Victory and Meridian Road and you talk about
what kind of commercial area would support for employment. We need to get the
people that are driving from Kuna all the way to Boise -- give them a place closer by to
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 18 of 19
work. We need to move some of that employment back this direction, rather than Kuna
being a bedroom community and 50,000 cars driving past my gas station. As much as I
would like to have them all drive by, I would like a hundred, but I mean, really, we need
to move some employment back down to this side of the freeway, instead of having
everybody having to cross the freeway to get to work.
Graham: So, if you would do us a favor of writing those things down or if you have a
spot where you think this would be a good place, that is the kind of feedback that will
help us to take it back to our working group. So, please, make sure you record that --
those kind of comments for us in writing and even if -- like I said, even if you have a spot
on the map that you think would serve that, that would be great.
Hood: I will let you know, too, and offer up -- you can call and Ivan -- something maybe
lost in the translation, but you can call me. I can take notes, too, if you're not -- if you
don't want to submit comments, Ivan -- I can pull up the map and we can talk about it
and record, essentially, your comments, too. So, I will offer that up for those of you that
don't want to resubmit a comment sheet. Is there any other questions or comments?
Yes.
Rohm: I do have a couple of comments from some previous comments made from you
and that is possibly not necessarily commercial, but industrial. We do have a lot of
acreage along Eagle Road that has been designated as industrial, but as Eagle Road
developed it became apparent that the competition for that acreage was better suited to
move it over into a commercial venue and we have lost a lot of our industrial acreage to
commercial development. At this point in time I'm not sure how much industrial
designation there is in the City of Meridian which would generate additional
employment. So, possibly some of this area within this area of impact would be -- could
potentially be considered for industrial.
Hood: We certainly can consider it. I don't -- I don't know the acreages that we
currently have planned throughout the city for industrial. When we put this together we
did not make that one of the five options for you all. It certainly is one of the options in
the city. So, if you have location -- location for industrial clusters that you think would be
good, certainly, call those out on your plan. We haven't heard too many folks cry for
industrial uses out there, but it doesn't mean it's not a potential and they couldn't be
factored in. So, certainly, I mean with some exceptions pretty much everything is on the
table. So, if you see -- you know, if you know of some property that would be good for
that or could make a good future business park for industrial -- light industrial users,
certainly we would be happy to accommodate for those. But, again, Iwill -- back to Ten
Mile. Just a few short miles away from this area we do have a pretty large area planned
for industrial uses. So, we weren't really looking at this as being that area for industrial.
It is on the north side of the interstate. So, you would have to cross the interstate to at
least get to your industrial job at this point anyway. I will -- I will point out -- and I
mentioned you could call me. You can also -- tomorrow we will have the comment
sheet that you should have all received. That will be online, too. So, that's an easy way
to do it. If you're computer savvy you can just fill it out and submit it online, too. So,
Meridian City Council -Planning & Zoning Joint Meeting
April 3, 2012
Page 19 of 19
''~`~ h is another -- another o tion. An one else? Okay. I just did want to reiterate we will
to p Y
have one more meetin Ma 29th and that's --between now and then, please, get those
g Y
comments in. We have a deadline and we'd like those back by April 22nd. So, about
two and a half weeks. If ou can get those to us, that PAG is going to meet and
Y
consider all those short) thereafter. So, if you can get those into us we can compile
y.
them and we will meet at City Hall again. Most likely in this room on the 29th of May, so
-- and I can han back, too, if anybody was too shy to say something in front of the
g
whole group, I will stick around for a little while and we can talk, so --
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, I move that we adjourn our meeting.
Bird: Second.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Okay. We are adjourned.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 6:48 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
MAYOR T Y DE WEERD
ATTEST:
JAYCEE~F~OLMAN, CITY CLERK
DATE APPROVED
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