Draft Minutes February 28, 2012B. Public Hearing: AP 12-001 Request: Appeal for a City Council
Review of the Director's Denial of an Accessory Use Permit
(AUP 12-001) for a Home Occupation by Lee White Located at
1750 N. Ten Mile Road
Hoaglun: Next up we have 7-B, public hearing request AP 12-001. Pete.
Friedman: Thanks, President Hoaglun, Members of the Council. I’ll give you a little
background on this. This is a request for review of the Planning Director’s decision on
denying a home occupation permit or, technically, an accessory use permit for Mr. Lee
White for – to conduct business at his home at 1750 North Ten Mile Road. This goes
back a couple of years. I believe the Council is familiar with this. In January of 2010
Mr. White had applied for a similar permit and for the sole purpose of repairing,
restoring, and selling household and yard items at his home. At that time we reviewed
the application and determined that it did not comply with the specific standards for
home occupations in the Unified Development Code. The primary issues then, as are
now, are the outdoor display of materials, changes to the material appearance of --
and residential character of the property. It's not conducted within the primary
dwelling as required by code. It's conducted within -- some of it’s conducted within
accessory structure, a garage, and the goods for sale are not produced or fabricated
on site. Well, subsequent to that denial in 2010, apparently Mr. White was not able to
file a request for review in a timely fashion and so things just sort of continued on
status quo. We received a couple little complaints last fall and we entered into some
discussions with Mr. White. Code enforcement was involved with those -- in those
discussions. And we really came down to three options. One was to cease the sale of
material on site. The second one was to avail himself of the city’s provision for garage
sales and put the items that he restores out for sale four times a year for a garage
sale. Each one of those garage sales could be for three days. Or the third option was
to, again, apply for the home occupation permit with the understanding that it would be
denied and, then, he could seek Council review and redress of that denial. We had
come to the Council -- he had come to the Council previously for and was granted a
fee waiver for both the home occupation permit, as well as the rebut for Council
review, which is what he is here for tonight. So, he did decide to move forward with
the home occupation permit application and that was filed with us in December 15th
of
2011 and upon receipt of that and review and noting that really conditions hadn’t
changed there, it was my determination it did not comply with the UDC and I,
therefore, denied the application. This time Mr. White has filed a timely request for
your review and that's why we are here tonight.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Pete. Is the applicant present? Good evening, Mr. White. Can
you state your name and address for the record.
White: Lee White. 750 North Ten Mile Road, Meridian. I'm nervous. I was told not to
be, but it's something that happens I guess. Not knowing exactly how to present my
position, my need to do what I have been doing, repairing and rebuilding things,
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February 28, 2012
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putting them out for recycling purposes, I believe each of you have a copy of the
personal narrative that I wrote, is that correct, in your files?
Hoaglun: Yes, we do have that. Yes.
White: You have that? Okay. That will – we will dispense with that, then. But the
agenda that I’d like to kind of run through was that -- I have some housekeeping items
I’d like to talk about and review the items that I cannot adhere to on the HOUP and,
then, we need to determine other issues that may be involved, if we can address them
and get them cleared. I would like to read a letter or two that have been given to me in
support of what I have been doing, if this would be permissible.
Hoaglun: Yes. And, Mr. White, we have some people signed up to testify, so if they
are the same people we could probably dispense with the letter, unless that's going to
be what they want to enter into the record.
White: There is no one here that I have a letter for --
Hoaglun: Okay. Great.
White: -- that I have in my possession at this time. If we can proceed like that, why, I
was going to read the narrative that I had given, so that the audience would hear that,
but I think that in essence of time we will dispense with that for tonight.
Hoaglun: And, Mr. White, that will be part of the official public record and available for
people to read in the minutes and so on, so – that is a part of it, so --
White: Is this already available for personal or –
Hoaglun: Yes. No, no problem. Go ahead.
White: All right. Housekeeping items. I wanted to express gratitude or thank the
Council and the Mayor – the Mayor isn’t here tonight, but you can give her my thanks
for the service that you people do for the City of Meridian. Also for waiving the fees
that you have done for me. I appreciate it. Secondly, I would like to give thanks for
the assistance that has been given to me in getting to this point tonight to the Planning
and Zoning Department. They have done an excellent job and Kristi Vigil, Barbara
Shiffer, and Mr. Friedman are to receive my heart-felt thanks for what they have done.
Now, question. First of all, an issue that I had is -- if we haven’t free interchange of
conversation here, do I have to address you as Council members each time I speak or
is it –
Hoaglun: Mr. White, we recognize people who come up here aren't used to doing this
all the time, so we do allow some latitude in that, but we just have to run things
through the chair, so that’s -- if Mr. Rountree wants to address you or Councilman Bird,
they just ask for permission from me and I grant it to them and we do the same thing
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February 28, 2012
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back and forth. So, if you – if you had something for Councilman Bird you just have to
ask permission of me. We keep it light. No one’s going to wrap the gavel or anything
like that.
White: Well, appreciate that.
Hoaglun: But we do try to follow a process here and procedure, but --
White: Okay.
Hoaglun: We don't make it too onerous.
Bird: Thank you very much. The question I have is for each of you Council members
is have any or all of you been by the place where I display the things that I repair for
recycling?
Hoaglun: I think, Mr. White, I can speak for the Council. We all know where it is
located, yes.
White: Okay. So, you know where it is –
Hoaglun: I personally drive it every day.
White: Okay. And the other two members have also done the same?
Hoaglun: Yes.
White: Okay. Then I probably won’t need the pictures that I brought to show you the
entrances and the exists and – anyhow, let's go into the next stage of what I want to
do, then, is review of the denial. Number one was because the premises looks
different than they do. When I display recycled items along my southern rail fence it
doesn't seem like it really changes the appearance of the residence. They are not big
and bodacious. They are small in nature and well organized and I try to keep things a
minimum time frame, so I – I like to keep change and people will come by and talk to
me and look things over, like the variety that we are able to come up with. Where I
display the items it's a grand total of 19 feet from commercial property. There is a
commercial property on my west about 75 feet. The Meridian – Nampa-Meridian
Irrigation Company pumphouse. Adjoining my property -- or that property is a medical
facility also commercial. Drive-thru to my east is about 200 feet, a Meridian water
department well house well. Walgreen’s is across my driveway -- or the driveway to
the south. Down south about a thousand feet is a credit union. Across the street from
that is Albertson’s and about six or seven other commercial businesses. So, I feel like
I’m pretty much in the – I’m in the fringe area of a commercial zone I guess is the way
we want to say that. I’m not in a subdivision. And I take pride in my property. I want
to have it look nice. Besides I feel where my location is I'm a show – show place for
the neighborhood. Now, Item two on that denial was a business entirely from the
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residence. Mr. Friedman talked about that considerably. My wife would not be happy
if I were to bring my shopsmith into the house or the welder or a drill press or the plain
and do the work that I do in the house. It – the 56 years that we have been married,
she would draw the line and I would be out on the porch sleeping for a long time
probably. So, that gives me an alternative of going to the garage, which is part of the
house. Now, if I were to move all this stuff I do into the garage I would have to move
the truck out, find a place to park it. I would have to redo the electrical system in there
to handle the additional tools that I use. Parking on Ten Mile Road would be an
impossibility, which we are aware of. I would have to display my goods from the front
door of the garage and at that, then, if people were to come and take a look at what I
have, they would drive in my driveway or most likely park on Ten Mile Road. This
creates a problem, because people are coming right in front of my driveway, making a
left turn into Walgreens. Just to the south they are coming from two lanes into one
lane on the road. People are coming in and out of Walgreen’s right and left. So, it
doesn't look like doing anything out of the garage is really a feasible alternative to what
I have been doing. Furthermore, I understand that widening process is in high speed
or beginning to get into high speed of Ten Mile Road and if that takes place that takes
-- my rumors tell me that it will take from ten to 15 feet off of the front of my property.
If that's the case I can't even back my truck out of the garage or my car out of the
garage without crossing into the traffic or sidewalk. So, that would mean that
everything that I do is shot down the tube anyhow. So, then, item number four on the
denial is that retail sales from the dwelling, only items fabricated or produced on the
premises can be sold. I’m at a loss to know how to provide my services to my
neighbor, except the way I have been doing it. My work takes place in a shop, not in
the loving room, and I'm wondering how we can make that happen, so that we can get
by and continue doing what I have been doing. I think that you as a governing body of
the Council and City of Meridian probably have ways of issuing a variance, which I
think we need to be looking at, so that I can continue it. If it happens I would be most
grateful, but I don't like to think of the idea that I'm breaking the law. I don't want to do
it intentionally. It's not my nature to be a law breaker, so my big concern has been -- or
not big, but one of my main concerns has been the complaint or complaints that come
to me – or not to me, to the City Council -- or to the code enforcement people.
Apparently there was – I have been told three phone calls in October and November.
Is that a verified number, Mr. Chairman?
Hoaglun: Mr. White, I do know there were complaints. I don’t know how many there
were.
Friedman: Mr. President, Members of the Council, I don't know a specific number. We
do know there were complaints. We didn't really get into that, because – I mean we do
know there were complaints. That was probably one of the impetuses for our confab
that we had with Mr. White and the code enforcement supervisor, but at that point it
was just looking at the options, because clearly the – the activities that were going on
were not compatible or consistent with the home occupation regulations.
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February 28, 2012
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White: So, I am a law breaker and don’t want to be. Well, because I'm located
basically in – in amidst commercial properties, I think we need to look at a variance, so
that I can conduct my business and keep me -- I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I
have retired and I like to keep busy and because of the activity and use of my talents
that I have it has been a tremendous outlet for me. I don’t make a whole lot of money
at it. I’m not in it for the money. But there have been people that have benefitted from
the money that I do make. There is kids that get to go to camp. There are college
kids in the family that get some tuition help. There has been a number of neighbors
that have had need for rent and groceries that an anonymous giver takes care of those
things for them and I wouldn't deny that I may have stepped into something like that
once in awhile. So, it’s a possibility that we might down the road here someplace find
a way to identify a person who makes a phone call or a negative report on something
such as me, that we might address it individually or is this something that the privacy
act has kept us from doing?
Hoaglun: Well, anytime there is a code violation and, you know, people can call that in
and say here is what I am observing and, then, the city goes out and takes a look at
that and if there is a violation, then, we have to follow up on that and that's just the
nature of it. And there are instances -- and, unfortunately, it’s this way in every
community -- not everyone wants to have a neighborly conversation. They don't want
to know who they are for a reason that is not good. So, that's unfortunate, but that's
just the way some people operate. I know it’s not true in your case, but that’s --
Bird: I personally would just be thrilled to have somebody come and say I don't like
what you’re doing here, I don’t like this, this is wrong, can we adjust it. I would work
with anybody that came to me personally and said that. I have got an open mind and I
have made it a habit of being that way. I have got broad shoulders to carry the load
and I have got the will to do what’s right.
Hoaglun: I wish everyone was like you, Mr. White. It would be a much better
community. But it, unfortunately, doesn't work that way, so --
White: I have my peace. I’d like to have it happen. Anyway, I have about three or
four letters here I’d like to read that are supporting what I have been doing. I have
numerous people that have stopped by since I have not had anything out for sale
since November. Numerous people have stopped and they catch me out in the yard
or in the driveway and say when are you going to start putting something out again?
We miss it. I think that I have been able to provide an extremely important and a good
service to the neighbors. Here is one letter that I'm going to read and, then, we will --
Hoaglun: Mr. White, I might ask are they fairly short letters or – there is no --
White: They are short.
Hoaglun: There is no ten pages or anything like that?
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February 28, 2012
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White: No. No. Nothing -- nothing more than two or three paragraphs.
Hoaglun: Okay. Go ahead.
White: Okay. This one here is from Rich and Sue Altemier. They say that they moved
here a couple years ago from the panhandle where we owned a business for ten
years. My husband met Mr. White and he has been a big help since our move here
with his knowledge and in helping out lending my husband some tools, which we didn’t
have. We should acknowledge -- he should be acknowledged for his helping hand
and friendliness. He is definitely the welcome -- I can't even talk -- welcoming
committee of Meridian. Nothing unsightly and his property is kept up beautifully. I
can't understand why anyone would want to interfere and put a stop to Mr. White fixing
up items and selling them for a small fee and even giving many of them away to
someone that needs them. That's one. The manager of Walgreen’s across the street
says that everything is okay. No complaints. He has no problem with what I'm doing
and I have not had any customers -- anybody come and say that they had a problem
with it, so –
Hoaglun: As long as you’re not selling prescriptions I think you’re okay. Yes.
White: Good point.
Hoaglun: From our police department.
White: All right. Here is another one from Nicky and Vickie -- Stacy and Nicky Vogal.
They live on Ten Mile Road also. It has been brought to our attention that Mr. White
was formally notified that he no longer can display items for sale along the front of his
fence in the driveway. We wanted to make mention how we know him and the
thoughts -- our thoughts regarding this situation. We moved into the home directly to
the east of Mr. White on -- in March of 2011. It didn't take him long to come and
extend us a gracious welcome to the neighborhood. Over the past year we have
enjoyed getting to know him and exchange a lot of vegetables out of the garden back
and forth. A good example of his character was last spring -- I will just highlight this
one. Last spring when we were rototilling the garden, finding that the rototiller that we
had rented wasn’t doing the job, he brought his over and -- and gave us a hand and --
and we got the job done. He can often be found working in his garage and helping
other people out. Okay. Now, this one here is from a small child and I really don't
know who the child is. But it’s in child handwriting and I think that it’s important that we
see that not only adults, but children appreciate what I do. So, I'm going to do my best
to read it. Hi. My name is Chloe Holly. I think he should keep his decorations up,
because all of the work he does makes up a lot of time. The law is in charge, but I
don't know why they would want to shut him down. He takes his time on work and has
his -- his done and he puts it outside. It’s so pretty and it’s just so beautiful. I hope
that he can keep up the work. Now, here was one that just arrived a little while ago
and it is a short one. It says: To the city. Leave this man alone. He hurts no one.
Worry about real issues. You’re truly out of line and out of touch with your citizens.
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February 28, 2012
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Shame on you. Mrs. Dee Paige over on Moon Lake Drive. So, we get all kinds.
There is two or three others here. I -- I also have in file 26, 27 other letters that people
have thought that what I was doing was fine.
Hoaglun: If we could, Mr. White – and, Jaycee, I don’t know how you want to do this.
If you could get those to her to be entered into the record and, then, I think if you can
just make copies and, then, can get those back to him – I don’t know if we can do that
tonight, or --
White: Well, I have about four others, but I think in essence of time we are going to
dispense with them. If you want to put them in for the record, I have no problem.
Hoaglun: Put them into the record and, then, you have some folks that are signed up
here to speak in favor, so we can go onto those and, then, we can let you come back
and do a summarization and stand for questions if that works for you.
White: Okay. As I said earlier, I think we need to figure out some way to get a
variance, so that I can continue what I’m doing and I don't have the answer, but I'm
willing to work with something that will be amenable to both of us. Okay? So, I think
that -- are there other issues, by the way, besides the display or to my stuff? Is there
anything else that has been brought to your attention that people are unhappy with me
doing? Councilmen?
Hoaglun: Your wife didn’t contact us about your snoring or anything so I think we are
good.
White: Yeah, but she will. I hear it every night, so, it's – so, what do we need to do at
this point?
Hoaglun: Well, at this point, Mr. White, what we would like to do is call up the folks
who have signed up to testify and they are on your behalf, so I think that's a good thing
for you. We will listen to them and, like I said, we will have you come back and we can
-- we can go from there.
White: I’m not as nervous now as I was when I started.
Hoaglun: It wasn’t that bad, was it?
White: No, you didn’t bite at all.
Hoaglun: We do have people signed up for this public hearing. First on the list
Joseph Manor. If you want to speak come on up. If you want to indicate that you’re
just in favor of his appeal you can do that, but if you want to speak come on up.
Name and address for the record, please.
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February 28, 2012
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Manor: Okay. Council Members, I'm for Mr. White and his cause and I live at 2894
West Raven Hurst Street in Meridian, Idaho. We have known Mr. White for seven
years – we moved here and --
Nary: Your name, sir, for the record.
Manor: Pardon?
Nary: Your name.
Manor: Joseph Manor. M-a-n-o-r. We have moved here over seven years ago and
one of the first points of contact also was Mr. White, because moving you need items
and he had very neat displays at his property and we were able to use a few items,
shelving and such. We think it’s very unique what he does. I think that in working with
him a couple times he actually takes items from other locations and areas that would
probably be a distraction or an ugly nature to our community and he has refurbished
them and cleaned up those areas and actually done something wonderful with it. Our
personal experience – and I represent my family of ten -- he is a very good neighbor of
great character, great initiative, a fine example to our children and what you can do if
you put your mind to something. We live in – out of Ustick-Ten Mile intersection,
basically, and it’s very pleasing to us as parents that our children of proper age bike
down to Albertson’s or something or down to the bank or something to -- even
Walgreen’s, the two safest points of contact. We consider our number one the fire
station on the way down the road and, then, also Mr. White and it used to be that he
was out there quite actively involved in -- with people and discussing the few items he
put out. I personally don't recall him having more than five items out, unless he’s
having a yard sale or whatever and very neat, very organized right in front of his
garage, straight in a line. But that's -- it's a safe point. You like a community where
you can feel like your kids can be okay if they get a flat tire on their bicycle and was a
guy to help out or a guy to be able to call from his house. Him and his wife are
upstanding citizens. I’d like to recognize that. So, we appreciate what he does. I
think he tries to make everyone happy and move as much merchandise to his side
yard, which, you know, if you’re driving out of the neighbor across the street from him, I
couldn't see how that would affect them whatsoever to the appearance of the house.
His house is well groomed, his – he has antiques, which are interesting and his
hedges are trimmed. His history is being a very good I guess custodial or
maintenance worker, which is a -- you know, he knows what he’s doing and he’s been
very helpful to us. Also helped us borrow of few things at times and helped us figure
out a few problems, so I think he is a beacon in our community and I would appreciate
your working with him and if there is anything we can do to help this process get along,
we would like to see that happen. So, we thank you for your consideration, Council.
Hoaglun: Okay. Any questions from Council?
Rountree: I have none.
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February 28, 2012
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Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: Mr. – is it Manor? Manor? Just one quick. On Ravenhurst, is that part of
the subdivision?
Manor: Ravenhurst is a candlelight subdivision. It’s actually – it’s on the corner of
Ustick and Ten Mile. We are probably the farthest away from them -- between Cherry
and Ustick, but which -- since you asked me the question, I have the consideration that
I see in Mr. White’s location is that he’s kind of a house standing alone there, which in
the business aspect is that he’s not affecting -- the way I see it he’s not affecting any
neighborhood right here either, which is a – an interesting place for his house to be.
I’m sure it outdates probably most of the subdivisions around him, so -- we are not
directed – directly affected by him as far as the neighborhood, but his – I mean his
house extends on the left side just along the fence into another neighborhood and that
we are not --
Hoaglun: I wanted to take this opportunity – where you’re located, because I think that
– your street cuts through from Ustick to Ten Mile, does it not? That goes all the way
through?
Manor: It goes -- well, our subdivision is very – it enters in in on -- enter in on Ten Mile
and it exits out onto Ustick.
Hoaglun: I was just wondering if you had any problems with people cutting through
your area yet with construction that started on that intersection yet.
Manor: Honestly, I have not heard, but I’m kind of -- I'm -- this is the intersection, we
are in the back corner, so it wouldn’t affect us directly.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Manor: They wouldn’t come around our neighborhood.
Hoaglun: I just wanted to take that opportunity while – I thought that’s where you
were, to see if that was a problem yet, so –
Manor: Thank you for asking.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
Bird: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Next up we ever Jack Boggetti.
Boggetti: Boggetti.
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February 28, 2012
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Hoaglun: Boggetti. You want to come up.
Boggetti: I’d love to. Thanks. Well, I appreciate -- I'm Jack Boggetti. My wife and I
live at 2449 North Maxie Way, which is in the Fieldstone Subdivision. The backyard of
our house backs up to the east side of the Chateau Park there. Nice location. We like
it there. We moved there about 12 years ago and so like you we have watched that
Cherry Lane - Ten Mile intersection become more and more commercial. If I
remember right, when we first moved there I think the Albertson’s about the only
commercial establishment there and, then, there was the doctors office on what would
be the northwest corner that mysteriously has remained empty. I don't -- I don't
understand that, but I guess that’s another issue. And so like you, you know, we have
watched the bank come in, we watched Walgreen’s come in, we watched St. Al’s
medical facility we have been grateful for all of those developments. The addition of
the Ten Mile interchange has been another real blessing in that community and so
every one of the developments – commercial developments that we have seen come
in there has benefitted us and provided a service for us in some way and I’m here to
speak strongly in support of Lee’s appeal to be able to continue doing that, because in
the same way as Albertson’s and the bank, which we shop at Albertson’s, we bank at
the bank, we buy things at the drugstore – in the same way that each of them has
provided a service to the neighborhood that we live in, I feel like Lee has done the
same thing. And so, you know, maybe a quick personal example, if you will indulge
me for a minute. I have numerous interests. One of them is old Jeeps. One of my old
Jeeps is a 1953 Willys M38A1 Army jeep. Now, you may not be familiar with them, but
underneath the hood is a little hook, a little bracket, and that little bracket is there for a
shovel that was designed specifically for that Jeep. There is no other -- I can't go to
Lowe's to buy it. I have to find a shovel that fits that Jeep. So, I just – and this was a
number of years ago. I just happened to stop by Lee’s place and I said, Lee, I have
got this old Jeep I need a shovel. He said I think I know what I can do for you. Less
than a week later I stopped by again. He found me an original Korean War era shovel
that fits my Jeep and it’s still there to that day. And so, yeah, as I think about providing
a service to the community, that's the kind of a service he provides. He provides us
with an alternative to purchasing things we might not able to get locally. You know, I
would also say that I'm not in the least offended by him conducting his business there.
You know, I think it's consistent with the commercial nature of that community. Others
have already stated in letters and here in testimony, he does a wonderful job, keeps
his yard up, it’s attractive, it's not a nuisance. I understand, as Mr. Friedman said, you
know, there are rules and regulations and we respect them and we appreciate them.
We appreciate the work that you have to do also as City Council members. I
understand that you have been – you have probably received some complaints – at
least it’s stated that you have received some complaints on -- on what Lee does there,
but I guess I would ask you if you have ever made any decision that would have done
anything that you didn’t get at least one complaint on as a member of this Council. I
have a feeling you may have gotten one or two.
Hoaglun: Occasionally.
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February 28, 2012
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Boggetti: I understand that. And that's not to excuse the person’s responsibility to
follow the law. We understand that the law still applies. I’d just encourage you to do
what Lee has asked you to do and do what other community members have asked
you to do, find some way to let this man continue doing what does, because from my
own personal perspective he provides a service for that community that is unique and
–
Hoaglun: You bring up a good point, Mr. Boggetti. Let me tell you the struggle I have.
His property is unique. It’s a unique location. But the zoning is still residential and
that's my struggle I have is if I go, okay, we will let him do what he wants to do at this
property, because it's unique, but, then, I have to apply that standard to everyone else
that comes in and does the same thing and what if it’s your neighbor and people don't
want that in the neighborhood, they don't -- that’s why we have only four yard sales
per year, because people got tired of perpetual yard sales in front of their neighbor
across the street and the traffic it generated. That's my struggle. It's not that he’s a
bad guy or that, you know, he shouldn't be doing this he. Doesn't – he’s not providing
a service. He does. But it's that struggle of, okay, if we say yes to this, then, it’s going
to be in your neighborhood, the person across the street and now all of sudden you’re
going, wait a minute, I'm tired of the traffic, I'm tired -- and that's – that’s where the
struggle is. How do we reconcile that, but at the same time recognize this is a unique
piece of property, it's not the normal subdivision type of thing. So, that's – that’s where
I am on that. So, that's – I appreciate your testimony. We are glad to know what type
of person he is and that he’s providing a service, but at the same time I have to think
about the whole community and those folks out there who would have to put up with
that if that was in their neighborhood right next to them. But, again, it's a little bit of
apples and oranges, but when it comes to our rules, the zoning is the same, we have
to take that as being equal and that's the struggle we have here is seeing is there a
way we can find some middle ground, as Mr. Lee has asked, that's – that’s – for me
that’s where the struggle is, so -- you bring up some good points.
Boggetti: Well, thanks. And so do you. And I -- you know, I appreciate the fact that,
you know, you do have a responsibility to represent all the citizens and I would say
that from our perspective we are grateful to be here in Meridian. As I said, we have
been here for 12 years and we like it here. And part of the reason we like it here is
because of the nature of the community and I appreciate the difficult position you
have. I would just ask you to focus on – on two things that I think we both said -- at
least I said, a service to the community. He does provide a service to the community,
more than just shovels for some old guy who like old Jeeps I might add. And – and
the other is unique. It is unique and that is certainly a very commercial area and
becoming busier all the time, you know, as -- as we try to -- as we notice as we try to
leave Chateau and turn -- especially turn south on Ten Mile we notice how much more
populated and how much more commercial that area is. So, with that I will say thanks
-- thanks for letting citizens come in and share their opinion and thanks for the good
work that you do. I know it’s difficult, I know there is no easy answer and I know that
you may get a complaint or two no matter what you do.
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February 28, 2012
Page 12 of 50
Hoaglun: That’s right.
Boggetti: So, we appreciate it.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
Boggetti: Thank you much very.
Hoaglun: Next up have Barbara Morrison. Signed up in favor. Give your name and
address.
Morrison: Hi. My name is Barbara Morrison and this is my son Luciano and we live at
3738 West Bedrock Drive in Meridian.
Hoaglun: All right. Thank you. Go ahead.
Morrison: We live flip flop from the other fellow, so traffic doesn't affect us either yet. I
skipped speech class in college, so this is a little nerve racking for me, but it's really
important that I stand up for Lee and Barbara White. They are exceptional people. My
son was one of the kids that were able to do the – the yard sale and I don't know if he
will talk to you, but he had an amazing time and he was so excited with his 15 or 30
dollars that he made and he just really looks up to Lee and as the other fellow said
about the safe places between my house, I feel, and Albertson’s are the fire
department and if you have any problem stop by and Lee will help you. So, that's,
basically -- I want to make sure that Lee -- keep Lee and Barbara doing what they do,
because they do provide a unique – a unique service, because we don’t have many
people that do that in any community. It's very rare that you see someone who gets
anyone to get out of their car and anytime I see Lee or Barbara I'm like, honk honk, we
stop, we visit, and I think what Lee said about it, it’s not about the money, I think that's
absolutely true. It's about having friendship with people and he is our friend.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. Luciano, do you have anything to add? No. Okay.
Morrison: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Thank you. And Luciano Contreras was signed up, but -- and his mother
spoke for him. So, we have next Nicole Amy? Did I get that right? All right.
It's the phonics I had in grade school.
Amy: As a teacher I appreciate that. Nicole Amy. I live at 4010 West Moon Lake
Street in the Lakes at Cherry Lane Subdivision. I have lived here for now almost three
years. I left California because – well, all – all the teachers left our jobs. My family
has lived up here for many years in Meridian. The first time I came to visit the first
thing I noticed was the sign on the fence that said I replace shovel handles and I
instantly just smiled. I thought who does that anymore. Who is that helpful? Who –
who doesn’t just say chuck it and go to Lowe’s. Chuck it and go to Home Depot. And,
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
Page 13 of 50
then, the other things that he does on that list I'm like do people that own those things,
what would they do. Yes, there are pick axes still out there. Yes, there are shovels
and pick axes. And rather than throwing them in the trash, creating more useless
garbage to pollute the planet, this is a man who cares enough about his neighbors to
say this -- I can do this for you and, hey, if you want a little something – if you want to
give me a little something, that’s fine. I had the pleasure only once of meeting Mr.
White and it was a friend of mine – we were texting on our cell phones last summer,
we were walking by and my friend – my best friend, who I’m also speaking for had,
had to have a picture taken in front of that sign and he has shared that and so many
people back home in California have just been in awe of that and they have become
aware – because California -- and I couldn't tell you two of my neighbor’s names in
California, but this is a man who encourages people to be good neighbors. He
encourages a sense of community. He’s not hurting anyone. He’s not hurting any
local businesses. I’m sure Lowe’s doesn’t need the 20 bucks for a shovel. They have
plenty of money. He helps kids. I have seen his product. It doesn't interfere with any
esthetics of his home. It doesn't -- I have never seen cars backing up like they do
when Christmas lights are on display and causing a traffic jam. He’s not interfering
with anything. He's not hurting anyone. And I understand that you can’t say, well, it’s
okay for one person and not another. My father was a city councilman back in
California.
Hoaglun: And everyone loved him, I’m sure.
Amy: Yeah. Right. Okay. But this is -- I don't think they are going to be anybody else
who is going to say -- have a sign on their fence that says I replace shovel handles or I
want to help your kids develop character. It's not something that a lot of people are
out there doing. It’s not a talent, except for the care charge. I do that all the time. It's
not a talent a lot of people have. It’s not something a lot of people have time to do.
This is a man who devotes his time, because he has it and loves doing it and that’s
only benefitting the community and, yes, there are laws and, trust me, I know the laws
and I am kind of a law breaker. I only say that for what I believe in. If I had to get
arrested for this man, even though I have only met him once, I would, because I
believe in what he’s doing. And I know that there is the A’s, the B’s, the C’s. There is
the what if’s, the what if’s. There is, well, over here we have -- and, then, vice-versa
we have -- but, honestly, I don't think you’re going to have someone come up. If you
approve this man’s appeal you’re not going to have someone else come up to you in a
year, five years, ten years that says, hi, I just moved in, I want to replace shovel
handles. I want to build bird houses. I want to make – I want to make these beautiful
butterflies to sell them to kids. Nobody is going to do that. I mean there are children
who sell lemonade. That’s a service. But we don't make them get a business permit.
I make cookies. I don't have a business for it. But I do give them away. If people
want to give me five bucks for material I’m not going to say no, I'm an out of work
teacher. So, my only point – well, certainly I have many. This is a good man. He’s not
hurting anybody. He’s not truly breaking laws. He’s not murdering. He’s not stealing.
He’s providing a service. He’s being a good neighbor and, really, that's something that
we should emulate instead of punish. But I know the laws, but, really, he’s not hurting
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
Page 14 of 50
anybody. He’s a good man. And I happen to love driving by Ten Mile – driving down
Ten Mile to go home and seeing these really colorful bird houses or these beautiful
butterflies. It's my regret that I haven't stopped. But he isn’t usually out there when I
drive by. It’s pretty late. Thank you very much.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Nicole. Any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. That's all that we have had sign up to testify. Is there
anybody else in the audience who would like to say anything? Come on up, sir.
You know the drill I think by now. Name and address.
Trampleasure: Dennis Trampleasure. I live at 3565 West Tupelo Court.
Hoaglun: I’m sorry. Again what was the last name?
Trampleasure: Trampleasure. T-r-a-m pleasure. It’s all one word.
Hoaglun: Great. Thank you.
Trampleasure: You bet you. And I went to a school called being tactful, but I didn't
pass, so if I say something that offends somebody, I’m really trying not to. But we
have lived in our house almost 20 years. This year will be 20 years. We built our
house. We even let a neighbor use our compressor when they were building their
house years ago and it was a good community spirit. We had about 9,200 people then
and – I guess you don’t need a history lesson, you probably have lots of figures. I
guess really the bottom line is – what Mr. White is doing is very minimal and it really
assists in our neighborhood, it assists in our community. And it’s kind of an icon. You
know, I have lived in the same house, like I said, almost 20 years and I try to describe
to people how to get to my house. Ten Mile, Cherry Lane – have you seen that guy's
lot that looks like Sanford and Son used to look like? I know who you mean.
Everybody knows him. People have shopped at his place. Lots and lots of people.
And I think when you’re shopping, you patronize them, you’re kind of endorsing them.
So, a lot of respect for Meridian, which is the best place in the world -- and I mean that
with my heart -- to live. It’s the most wonderful place and we have great people. I
would hope that you and the rest of the Council can find a way to find some middle
ground to allow him to sell his products. And out of much respect I ask that. Thank
you.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Dennis. Any questions for Dennis? Thank you.
Trampleasure: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Anyone else that's not signed up? Okay. Mr. White, call you back up here.
It's no longer an appeal, you have been nominated for man of the year, so --
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February 28, 2012
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White: I’m speechless.
Hoaglun: Usually they start out: On behalf of the academy we thank you – no. It's not.
White: Yeah. Don't give me any awards. No, I -- I'm speechless that so many people
think that I’m an okay guy. Yard sales. The things I do aren’t becoming of yard sales.
I get a chest of drawers that’s got a broken door, I repair it and rebuild it. I can't store it
for an extended period of time so I can have a yard sale. Space is limited. Most of the
things that I rebuild people aren’t going to be buying at yard sales. It just is one of
those things. They are looking for bargains. I give them bargains all right. But it's a
different type of clientele that I deal with that stop by and chat with me. I have – I have
had more enjoyment visiting with people and quote, unquote, negotiating with things
that I have repaired and they are now out to be reused. They have been kept out of
the landfill. So, let's come to some kind of conclusion here that I'm not going to be
breaking the law and I can still do what I’m doing. I have got an offer -- or not an offer.
I have got a suggestion or a thought or two that might be acceptable and maybe not. I
think that there is possibly a little problem where I'm located – see, I have got a little
space six – six feet by 30 feet that I have been using and that's 19 feet from
commercial property. But it's right on the edge of a driveway going into Walgreens.
Hoaglun: And that's the one, if I might interrupt, if you’re coming out of Walgreens that
would be right there and if you turn --
White: Yeah. Right there. They can kick dirt onto my property. And a lady did
recently run through the fence and hit the side of the house, but that's another story. I
would be willing to move my display to the east a little ways and put it up there. That
way we are not interfering with traffic coming out of Walgreens, which I think may have
been one of these people’s complaints. I don't know for certain. Nobody will tell me. I
can't get an answer. If that is a problem I will move it to the east. I have got
permission to use that -- half of that driveway from my neighbor in the back. That way
we would be out of the line of fire and should be one way of continuing what I'm doing.
I would -- at that point if that is the case, I would -- either myself or ask the city to fix
me a sign that says recycled items for sale with that arrow pointing this way and
placed right at the edge of my property. That would be workable for me. Would it be
workable for the Council? The city.
Hoaglun: Well, I’ll ask Pete to kind of weigh in. My thinking on this -- what we get into
is a discussion of what a business looks like. Signage. Where things are located –
White: Okay. I can go without a sign.
Hoaglun: You know -- and, Pete, I was thinking is there a middle ground here. I mean
what -- I guess let me go back before you comment, Pete. I guess you fix things. You
know, I mean it sounds like you’re very good at that. You find things. You fix things.
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
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White: There is room for them right there to prove that I can do it.
Hoaglun: Yeah. You have got all your fingers, though.
White: Yeah. But they are beat up.
Hoaglun: Okay. For the sale purposes that's four times a year when you’re going to
have -- does that just not -- I know you had stuff out before. I remember when I drive
by you’d have stuff out there and --
White: Have you ever been offended by – does it look a mess when you go by?
Hoaglun: I wasn’t offended by it, but it’s not typical for a residential house. I mean
that's --
White: Yeah. And this – and this wasn’t commercial.
Hoaglun: And that’s what I said earlier about your property is it is a unique location,
because you’re really not in a subdivision, as you mentioned earlier, and it's -- it is right
on that boundary where Walgreens is right there. I mean if we could wave a magic
wand and say that -- your house and the neighbor’s house behind you has got this
type of zoning and they could do certain things, that might be the way to do it. But
there is a process we have to go through to get to that point and I don't know if you
would want to be zoned what we could all agree to if there was even agreement on
that, because it's still residential and we have a rural urban transition. This is almost
like a residential transition and it's going to be property I think ten years from now
that’s going to be an interesting parcel and it's --
White: There is going to be less of it if Ten Mile widens, so, then, what do we do?
Hoaglun: And that's another consideration. Yeah. What do we do, so --
White: I won’t even be able to live in it if they take ten – or 15 feet from me .
Hoaglun: And we are not sure -- we haven’t seen the drawings or the plans on exactly
what that will – where they are going with that road, because there is – it gets pretty
tight through some of those established areas and I’m not sure how they are going to
do that, so that remains to be seen, so --
White: What did Mr. Friedman say? Middle ground. Is he --
Hoaglun: Pete, is there -- I understand zoning, but not as well as people who work in
the Planning Department. Do we have anything that’s available to us?
Friedman: Thank you, Council President Hoaglun, Members of the Council. No, in a
way we don't really have a residential commercial zoning designation. The UDC –
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February 28, 2012
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Unified Development Code -- did make some provisions to allow a certain degree of
businesses and commerce to take place out of residential properties and structures
and those are the standards that we use to measure the applications and -- which are
the subjects of the hearing tonight. Short of that in the code right now the closest you
would come is the neighborhood commercial designation and, you know, that – you
get into everything that you would expect with commercial development. So, I hate to
toss it back to you, but that's exactly where we are tonight. When Mr. White and I
were discussing this over the past few months I did say – or suggested, you know,
these are the standards that I have to review the applications by and, you know, when
you go to Council it would be helpful if you could come with some suggestions on how
to meet halfway. So, you know, we -- as you know we try to be solution oriented and I
thought, well, maybe -- you know, maybe it's -- put the goods in at the end of every
day. You know, signing, something like that. I don't know. I don't have an answer.
You know, I'm not the one up there tonight. So, to answer your question, we don't
really have -- short of commercial zoning on the property -- then you get into a lot of
the other things that would be much more onerous for Mr. White. Parking
requirements, striped parking, and things like that. Landscaping, that sort of thing.
Hoaglun: And I guess, Pete, as further -- we don't – the city doesn’t regulate –
someone has some bikes for sale and they wheel them out during the day, you drive
by, oh, I could buy a bike, you know. They have a bike for sale. It's not there in the
evening. Might be out there for a couple day and someone buys it, but it's – it’s not
out there permanently. I mean we don't -- we don’t regulate that activity as far as I'm
aware.
Friedman: No. Council President Hoaglun, Members of the Council, I mean if
somebody you know, a kid’s outgrown a bike or decides that, you know, rather use the
car than the bike and decides, well, I’m not going to donate it, I will just throw it out
there for sale and that's just an individual selling personal property. Again, the yard
sale provisions that we have – those things are more typical of a situation when people
want to dispose of some of the household goods that they have acquired over the
years and we even have provisions for that to occur four times a year for up three days
per occurrence. You know, somebody throws a couple of bikes out for sale, maybe
they pick them up somewhere. It's not something that, you know, our code
enforcement people are actively looking for and the other staff are actively looking for.
Like I said, we have certain provisions at this point.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
White: They call that between a rock and a hard spot?
Hoaglun: Oh, absolutely.
White: That's where I’m at.
Nary: Mr. President?
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February 28, 2012
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Hoaglun: So are we. Bill.
White: I want to do something –
Hoaglun: Mr. White, we will hear from our lawyer here.
Nary: Mr. President, you know, I have been – I have been sitting here trying to figure
out some middle ground from what you guys were talking about. Unfortunately, the
thing we have today in the code is -- I think Mr. White’s type of business would
probably be okay in our Old Town District, because our Old Town District has a lot
more fluidity on what’s allowed and where he’s at isn’t that. But you have identified I
think where the problem is is that what Mr. Friedman and Planning have to go by and
what the Uniform Development Code spells out does deal with the very typical urban
development that's occurred in our city, both older ones in the ‘60s and ‘70s and newer
ones within the last ten or 15 years. The subdivision that’s immediately behind Mr.
White’s residence there on Ten Mile is a more traditional development. It doesn't have
– it may or may not may have an HOA any longer, but they have standards they are
required to build that. Mr. White’s, essentially, an out parcel to that type of subdivision.
So, we don't have a standard other than the same standards that applies everywhere
and you have identified the problem is that what Mr. White’s business is doing where
he’s currently located doesn’t fit into our standards and, Mr. White, it doesn’t have
anything to do with the quality what you do at your place. I think what Council
President Hoaglun is trying to deal with -- or address is not everybody is going to run
their business like you do in a neighborhood and so the issue the city has is -- if they
were all like you nobody would care, because everybody would be fine with it, but they
are not all like you, unfortunately, and there are people that are selling junk, old cars,
you know, garbage on their lawn all the time and that's a problem. So, trying to deal
with that with a good quality development – good quality business like you’re running,
versus everyone, is the challenge and I guess where we are sort of stuck at the
moment, Council, is the standards that we have really work very well universally for all
of the neighborhoods, but Mr. White’s parcel is not really like that. Now, I don't know
how many of those types of transitional residential units -- I mean, you know, Mr. White
at some point may wish to sell his property and my guess is whoever buys it is not
going to want to live there, they are going to want to sell it or make it into a commercial
property. So, I guess the quandary I have is that without us establishing a new
standard we really don't have an in between, but you certainly have the ability to direct
that we create a standard to address these types of properties that are these
transitional ones, I just don’t know how many there are. I mean that may be a fairly
simple process, but it also may be a very time consuming process and that doesn’t
help Mr. White necessarily. The -- you know, again, I think, Mr. White, one of the
things, too, is that you're not here just because some people didn’t like the looks of
your property, it really is – it just doesn’t fit into the rules we set up for everybody and
that's where I think we are trying to balance between the two. But in looking at it, I
mean I would agree with Mr. Friedman, we currently don’t have an ordinance that
would really fit for the living and commercial enterprise that Mr. White wants to operate
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
Page 19 of 50
on his property. I mean the – the attached garage appears to be one of the problems
where the accessory unit is not attached to the building, is -- under our ordinance is
prohibited, because now it’s operating like a separate unit or a separate store on
somebody’s property and that's where the fabrication occurs and that’s where all that
occurs and that makes sense, but it doesn't fit. So, I'm not sure how to help you,
Council, other than without us creating a new standard of something else, which you
have the power to do if you wish, it just may be time consuming to do that.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Mr. Nary.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: Mr. White, I’m glad you’re in our community. You do a great service. And I'm
really between a rock and a hard place. If I lived next to you you wouldn’t bother me at
all. But we have got to look out for the other 70,000 people that -- and in your zone it
don’t allow that. I know some of these people that live in subdivisions got up here and
testified that it didn't bother them, but they had three or four of the houses there people
redoing furniture or something and setting it out on their driveway and stuff day in and
day out and had cars coming it might have a different philosophy on it. What you do is
great, but I -- the problem I see with us -- like I said, if it was me no problem at all. It’s
the other people that we represent and pretty soon we will have everybody wanting to
do that stuff out of their house. Trust me, if one – if one gets by we will have more.
White: So, what do we do?
Bird: That’s what I’m trying to figure out.
White: That’s why I’m here tonight. I want to keep doing what I'm doing. Testimony
has been given that I’m not a bad guy. I’m not a law breaker. In fact, I almost cried.
Bird: You’re an honest --
White: But I want to keep doing -- keep busy. I'm not a spring chicken anymore
and --
Bird: Neither am I, but –
White: I got you a few years. Where do we go? I can offer another suggestion, but
we are going to run into the same barbed wire fence.
Bird: Mr. White, how do we – the next person comes in that’s wanting to do the same
thing and he isn't -- as Councilman Hoaglun said, he isn't doing it the right way or, you
know, doing it like you are. Instead of having five or six get up and stand up and say
how good he is, they get up and say we want him out of there. He says you have
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
Page 20 of 50
already allowed it in that zoning. How do we – how do we rectify that? We are setting
a precedent is my – that’s my biggest fear. Don’t get me wrong, I want to work with
you.
White: Well, I appreciate –
Bird: And if you lived next to me it wouldn’t bother me at all. But we can sit here and
say, oh, no, it’s not going to happen, nobody is going to come in or nobody is going to
do this or something like that, but sure enough it is going to happen. I don't know. We
are – we are condoning breaking the law is what it is. Breaking our ordinance is what I
look at it as.
Hoaglun: If I – Mr. White -- Bill, is there a way to – for an accessory use permit, is
there a way to give an approval with conditions that are delineated strictly to how a
parcel is situated or do we get ourselves in trouble on something like that? Located
next to a commercial, not part of our subdivision, no homeowners association, so on
and so forth. Is there a way to do that or are we just asking for trouble down the road?
And I know this is kind of off the top of the head stuff, but –
Nary: Yes and yes. Yeah.
Hoaglun: That’s a lawyer for you, folks.
Nary: What I – I guess what we could do, Council, if you would like – and I know Mr.
White has dealt a lot with Planning, but we could certainly take one more opportunity
to see if there is some way to fit what he’s doing. Because a lot of – I mean there is
really four things that have been identified that really violate our code in the accessory
use. I mean -- and Mr. Friedman has already outlined them. Basically, the display of
the merchandise, which would mean -- one of the suggestions that planning had made
was to remove the merchandise daily, to put it away, so that’s a possibility to consider.
The next three all deal with the accessory structure and I don’t know if there is a way
to rectify that dilemma, but we could certainly consider that, but to answer the second
part of your question, yes, I mean you folks have identified exactly the problem is that
Mr. White is a fairly unique circumstance and we could certainly look at that as a
possibility, because I don't think there is a lot of these, but there probably certainly are.
I think we have approved over the last ten years a number of outparcels to
subdivisions. They owned the property. They sell the back for the subdivision. They
lived in the portion that’s the transition piece. We haven’t ever addressed those,
because that issue hasn’t come before you to address. Is that something on a parallel
track to look at? We could certainly look at something like that. But we could certainly
sit down one more time with Mr. White and set this over for a week and see if we can
reach some other resolution that might be a way and Mr. White certainly is willing to try
to figure out something to make it workable and we could certainly try.
Hoaglun: Okay. Any other comments from Mr. Council?
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February 28, 2012
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Rountree: Mr. Hoaglun. Question for Pete. Pete, with the outbuildings there is an
issue, because it is not the residence. If they were connected in some fashion would
that particular issue go away?
Friedman: Members of the Council, Council Member Rountree, that's correct.
Rountree: All right. Thank you. Mr. White's probably cringing, because I'm going to
speak, because he particularly has made it known that he's not particularly in favor of
Mr. Rountree, but --
White: I knew that was going to come up.
Rountree: That's okay. That's okay, because this is -- that's the world we live in and I
really much appreciate somebody that has an opinion and willing to share it. I'm going
to go through a list of conditions and it might make it work and some of them are going
to be onerous possibly. Some of them might be a challenge to you and you might
want to really get in and do it. But I'm looking at what the issues are with respect to
how you're a residential zone and you're running a business and we don't want to do
this, because, honestly, every time we make a good faith effort on something like this
we get burned. I have done this for 12 years and I have seen it more times than not.
So, I have got some conditions here and you may or may not like them, but I think we
can probably get maybe through some of these issues with them. First off, nothing in
the front yard that relates to sales, including signs. On your back garage, a separate
facility, a professional sign that says nice guy lives here, handyman, Mr. White's fun
experience, whatever. Whatever you might want to put on it. But it's professional. It's
not hand painted and it's not done with stencil and all that. And that would meet our
sign code, so you don't get balled up in that. Material stored in your backyard behind
a fence that would not allow vision and I don't care what size, but I'm suggesting that
on the fence, which you might look at, is creating a tunnel -- a tunnel from your home
to that garage that might have a canvas top, it might have a vine covering it. It might
have something that connects your structures, so they are not separate, but the goods
you use sell would be stored in the evening and that any approval granted for this
particular application be subject to revocation by the city with a 30 day notice and it
would not go with the property if it were sold. So, those are the kinds of things -- you
asked for the kinds of things that might make it possible. Those are the kinds of things
that I think might make it possible. Beyond that we are governed by the ordinances
we are governed by and we have to make those -- have to make decisions as Mr.
Hoaglun explained. We really have no basis to vary that, as near as I can tell from the
information I have heard. So, you can address the kinds of things I have said,
whether, you know, it's something you'd consider or not, but I'd just throw those out for
leading the discussion.
Hoaglun: Mr. White, response? Want me to run through the conditions again? I didn't
know if you got them all.
White: Am I on?
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February 28, 2012
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Hoaglun: Yes.
White: I have already got the two buildings connected. There is a telephone wire that
goes from one to the other. That's connected.
Hoaglun: You might need a little more, but I think Councilman Rountree has given you
some latitude on that, what connection --
White: Yeah. I'm stretching it.
Hoaglun: -- can be. I don't think we can quite stretch it that far, so --
White: The probability -- possibility of putting a tunnel or even a canvas between the
two, that doesn't really make good sense, even though it may be something that will
make it fly. The wind comes through there pretty -- pretty hard and that would not be
something that I could put across the sidewalk that goes from the house to the shop.
It's a good idea, but I think in realistic terms it's not feasible that part of it. The sign --
the sign on the back shop I have no problem with, just as long as I get Meridian city to
make it.
Hoaglun: Mr. White, I'm finding out how your customers -- they have to negotiate with
you, don't they.
White: They do.
Hoaglun: They do. Yes.
White: Oh, yeah, you know, you throw out something and if they bite, fine. If it doesn't
you back off.
Hoaglun: You move on. You must be -- if you have a satellite or something you must
watch Pawn Stars or something, you know, and can kind of negotiate with everyone.
White: Oh, there is a couple items there that are workable. What happens -- now, he
said something about the front yard. Very few times do I put anything out in the front
yard. It's right there are at the fence on the south side.
Hoaglun: Let me -- if you would, Mr. White, let me go through these again, so we all
have them and Councilman Rountree make sure I don't miss anything here. Nothing
in the front yard related to sales, that includes signs, but a professional sign would be
allowed on the back garage. Materials would have to be stored in the backyard and I
don't know if that backyard would mean that side where he was discussing that,
because that -- that is his backyard, but it's also a side yard. That there be a
connection between the house and the garage. If it was my wife she would take that
opportunity to say I want that grape arbor up now. So, she would take advantage of
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February 28, 2012
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that. To me that's a covered deal. But the goods would be stored in the evening and if
there was any violation of any of this there would be a 30 day notice and a revocation
and it does not go with the property if you were to sell the property. Did I capture
those correctly, Councilman?
Rountree: Very good.
White: That last part I think is good, because not everybody is going to be a Lee
White. That just is the way life is.
Hoaglun: Yeah.
White: And that probably is a good thing. Storing the items or taking them in in the
evening. For the most part I do. Have been. Pull them off of the side into my yard
and quite often put a cover over them. But I have been, likewise, very fortunate in
nobody has come and destroyed or stolen. I've had one item or two -- maybe two
items stolen that I have had out. So, people have been extremely good to me. I can --
I have no problem with bringing them in, covering them up for the night. What about
this idea. Display items for two days, three days, one week, nothing for four or five
days and, then, a four day week?
Hoaglun: Well, Mr. White, what --
Bird: And we are breaking the law.
Hoaglun: Yeah. We get into that -- that ordinance. The four days -- I mean the three
days -- what we have in our yard sale you can do that four times for up to three days in
length; is that correct, Pete, or Mr. Nary?
Nary: Yes. Four times.
Hoaglun: Four times in a calendar, up to three days in length. So, you could under
yard sale ordinance do four sales a year have your material out there for three days
and call it a yard sale on top of -- on top of something that we might approve, is my
understanding, because you still could do that four times a year, even if -- even if you
were to do something like this, if we were to grant the accessory use permit with the
conditions and maybe not all of Council would agree to these conditions and that's
something we have to work out, but that is also an option still available to you on top of
-- if there was something we could come up with and that's -- that's -- the difficulty is --
and maybe this is something we -- we do continue and have Planning sit down and
scratch their heads and figure out is -- is there something here, are we looking at city
wide, are these conditions something that we can put into place that work for this
particular property, because that -- really, Mr. White, you're saving grace for me -- if
you were in the middle of the subdivision I would be -- I'm sorry, you're a great guy, but
we can't do this. The saving thing is about this property is in a unique location and
that really is what makes me give pause from saying we just -- we just can't do it. Our
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February 28, 2012
Page 24 of 50
codes just don't allow what you're asking to do. But because this property is unique in
the fact that these people and the Mayor and staff that you hear from are all people
that have the attitude of how can we do it, as opposed to, no, we just do that here,
which is a good thing about this community. Let's see if there is a way we can try to
make it work. The down side is sometimes it's a lot of work to get to that point and
sometimes we haven't been able to, but we always give it our best shot. So that is an
option we can give -- think about it for a week, work on it, we can vote on it now, it's --
it's really up to the Council.
White: Let me ask one further question.
Hoaglun: Go ahead, Mr. White.
Bird: What if I follow part of Councilman Rountree's suggestion, move everything back
to -- in front of the repair garage shop off of the street and totally enclosed, am I going
to be able to do that? And I'd have to put a sign up of some nature along my fence
indicating that recycled items would be for sale or something like that back at my shop.
Hoaglun: That's a good question. I think it runs afoul of item two on the letter you
received from Mr. Friedman. I'm not sure. And, Pete, if you could take a look at that.
But also ask -- I do need to ask -- we have that if it's detached, it doesn't count and
can you fill us in a little bit more on why that is?
Friedman: Council President Hoaglun, Council Members, I will be honest with you, I
can't give you the legislative history of how the code was developed what was
developed in there. I can surmise a number of things, but, again, if we take the overall
consideration of the home occupation regulations it really was in individual instances
and unique instances aside. Really was so that we didn't run into a situation where we
were detracting from the overall appearance and enjoyment of residential properties
and so that we didn't have all of a sudden garages becoming de facto car repair
garages or having -- heaven forbid -- we have had -- we have had some people come
in that want to make and store toxic or hazardous materials as part of a home
occupation. We had one gentleman that wanted to -- I think he wanted to distill bio
diesel. We have had other people who wanted to store -- they make firearms and
munitions wanting to store those kinds of things. So, really, it -- there is a couple of
key issues involved. One, again, is the appearance and enjoyment of residential uses
and the other one, of course, is the public safety. That being said, I -- you know, we
can do research -- I know of other instances where home occupations are allowed with
certain limitations either in attached or detached structures. There was a legislative
determination made when the UDC was adopted that we didn't want really any
accessory structures being utilized for the occupation.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
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February 28, 2012
Page 25 of 50
Hoaglun: Yes.
Zaremba: First I apologize for arriving late and since I missed most of the testimony I
expect to abstain on the vote on this, but I would comment on the question that you
just asked. I was on the committee that helped write the Unified Development Code
and Mr. Friedman said most of it, but some of the extra discussion was that an
accessory use permit for a residence -- we wanted to make sure that the focus was
this is really a residence and there are reasons why people would run certain kinds of
businesses within their residence, but I'm -- whatever the wording came out, our point
was we didn't want somebody building a separate building to run a business in in a
residential area and I realize you didn’t build that building for that purpose separate
from your house, but the wording that got into the UDC, the intent was for people to be
able to run a business in their residence and still have it remain looking like the
residence to everybody else and not to allow them to build a separate building for the
purpose of adding a business to a residential neighborhood. So, that's kind of where it
came from.
Hoaglun: Thank you for that history, Councilman Zaremba. On the testimony just to
fill you in, he's now man of the year, by the way, so -- we have heard a lot of good
things about him. But I guess -- and I'm stretching here, Pete. His detached garage --
the Walgreen's is commercial -- is that neighborhood commercial I believe? Is that --
Friedman: You caught me, Councilman.
Hoaglun: Yeah. I --
Friedman: I'm guessing it's probably neighborhood commercial if --
Hoaglun: Because they close at 11:00. But that --
White: 10:00.
Friedman: 10:00. Okay. And there is probably no way to extend that zoning to -- to
encompass his detached garage, is there?
Friedman: Councilman Hoaglun --
Hoaglun: I'm stretching here. I'm grasping at straws here.
Friedman: I would not recommend that. I --
Hoaglun: Okay. I didn’t think so. You see where I was going with that.
Friedman: Yes, I do.
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February 28, 2012
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White: I can appreciate where you are and what you're doing and trying to do. I do
appreciate that. But, by the same token, I'm trying to look out for me. I don't want to
be a law breaker, but I want to be busy doing something and I'm not going to sit in
front of the TV for seven, ten hours a day. It isn't going to happen.
Hoaglun: I don’t think that's your nature, Mr. White, so --
White: So, what do we do? I go away from here tonight no different than when I came
in, other than I had a good experience and got to see the other side of the fence and
hear your dilemma and I appreciate what you do trying to make it happen.
Hoaglun: Great.
White: I would like to have a copy of the suggestions that Councilman Rountree has
given and see if we cannot work on that. We might be able to swing and sway -- there
is no way that I'm going to at this time see possible to connect the two buildings
together. There is what, 50 feet between them, maybe 60, and I've got the yard going
both ways all over the sidewalk. It just wouldn't be feasible to connect the two
buildings in my mind.
Hoaglun: What we have to do here, tonight, Mr. White, is either continue this public
hearing to a time certain or we have to make a decision tonight, so -- and that's up to
the Council members here to make that determination, so -- we can certainly get these
to you, but if the determination is made in the negative, then, it's done. But if it's --
yeah. But if it's made with these conditions of these or possibly others, then, it's up to
you to say I can or can't do that. Then that's the option as well. Or we continue it and
see if there is something else out there that we can work on, but as you can tell we
have been working pretty hard at this trying to -- trying to make this work.
White: I want to make it work.
Hoaglun: Yeah.
White: But I don't want to be a law breaker by the same token and you don't want me
to be one and you would like to have it work I'm sure. Even Councilman Rountree.
Hoaglun: Even Councilman Rountree. He really is a good guy, so --
White: He's all right.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I opened my mouth and admitted I'm here. I would ask a question that may
have been covered before I got here and I apologize if so, but I guess my question is
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February 28, 2012
Page 27 of 50
about preexisting conditions or stuff like that. What is the relationship between when
you started doing this and when you were annexed into the city? Were you doing this
before you were annexed?
White: I purchased the property apparently after the annex --
Zaremba: Oh. Okay.
White: -- because I'm not aware of any annexing.
Zaremba: Okay. I thought the annexation was recently, but I could -- that answers my
question.
White: I bought the property in November of 1999.
Zaremba: Okay.
White: After Mr. Heffer and Mrs. Heffer had moved out.
Zaremba: Thank you. That kind of ruins where I was going.
White: It was a nice try.
Zaremba: Thank you.
White: Well, then, I suggest that we table it and continue. I work with the suggestions
-- try to make it happen. The one connecting the two is probably going to be the most
impossible one to do, unless I can put a four inch tube under the ground right at the
edge of the sidewalk and call that a connection. That may not fly.
Hoaglun: Possibly not, but we will see what Council members would like to do.
Rountree: And I think that's a good suggestion. Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Council Member --
Rountree: And for Mr. White's benefit I, too, replace shovel handles.
White: Do you do as good a job as I do?
Rountree: Probably. Maybe even better.
White: We will have a contest one of these days.
Rountree: I carve them, so -- I don't buy a handle and put it in, I turn them out of ash
and put walnut handles on them, so --
Meridian City Council
February 28, 2012
Page 28 of 50
White: I'd like to come and see your operation.
Rountree: Anyway, Mr. President, I would move that we continue this public hearing
for the benefit of Mr. White having an opportunity to review the comments that have
been received this evening and the comments that he's made as well and schedule it
for -- we have already run out February, so --
Holman: Councilman Rountree --
Rountree: Yes, ma'am.
Holman: -- that would be March 7th, because we are moving the meeting to a
Wednesday that week.
Rountree: And I would ask Mr. White is a week enough -- do you want --
White: Ask me what?
Rountree: Is a week enough? Do you want to come back in a week or do you want a
couple weeks to think about it? To schedule another hearing.
White: Once I see it in writing it's not going to be too hard to --
Rountree: Okay.
White: -- work through it, so let's shoot for a week.
Rountree: Let's -- date certain is March 7th, 2012 .
Hoaglun: Yes. And, Councilman Rountree, just to clarify your motion as -- do you
want Mr. White to work with staff on this issue?
Rountree: If that's his desire, yes.
White: I have no problem with --
Hoaglun: Okay. Is there a second?
Bird: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion and a second to continue this to March 7th and for Mr.
White to work with staff on the conditions related to his appeal. If there is no other
discussion -- Councilman Zaremba is abstaining on this vote; is that correct?
Zaremba: That's correct.
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February 28, 2012
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Hoaglun: Okay. With that I -- I have to ask City Clerk is this a roll call vote or just a
voice on this?
Rountree: Just voice.
Hoaglun: Just a voice. Okay. All those in favor say aye. Any opposed? There is
none. So, we continue to March 7th.
Thank you, Mr. White.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE ABSTAIN.
White: I'll give these papers to here.
Hoaglun: Great. We appreciate it.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda – Tuesday, February 28, 2012 Page 2 of 2 All
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