2002 10-24 SpecialMeridian Planning and Zoning Special Meeting October 24, 2002
The Special Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission was called to
order at 6:00 P.M., on Thursday, October 24, 2002, by Chairman Keith Borup.
Members Present: Chairman Keith Borup, Jerry Centers, David Zaremba, Michael
Rohm, and Leslie Mathes.
Others Present: Bruce Freckleton, Dave McKinnon, Nicholas Wollen, and Sharon
Smith.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
X David Zaremba X Jerry Centers
X Leslie Mathes X Michael Rohm
X Chairman Keith Borup
Borup: Good evening, welcome everyone to the Meridian Planning and Zoning
Commission Special Meeting for October 24th
, 2002. We would like to begin with roll
call of attendance of the Commissioners. This is a special meeting so we have only two
items on the agenda.
Zaremba: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Zaremba.
Zaremba: Would it be appropriate to discuss the minutes of the last meeting, October
17th
meeting, or not? Its not listed on the agenda but we all have them.
Borup: No, it isn’t. I think we got those minutes after the agenda was set, but we do
have them and they can be added if you would like to.
Centers: I have not read them Mr. Chairman.
Item 4. Public Hearing: PP 02-023 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 2
building lots and 1 other lot on 39.23 acres in an R-4 zone for Education
Campus Subdivision by Joint School District No. 2 – 3800 North Locust
Grove Road:
Item 5. Public Hearing: CUP 02-035 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for
an educational campus consisting of an elementary school,
charter/professional technical high school buildings, and school
administration center in an R-4 zone for Education Campus Subdivision
by Joint School District No. 2 – 3800 North Locust Grove Road:
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 2 of 19
Borup: And you always read them real thoroughly? So lets wait until the next meeting?
Oh, yes they are on our next meeting agenda. Lets proceed with our two Public
Hearings. I would like to open those at the same time, as they are both on the same
project. Public Hearing PP 02-023, request for preliminary plat approval of two building
lots and one other lot on 39.23 acres in an R-4 zone for Education Campus Subdivision
by Joint School District No. 2 at 3800 N. Locust Grove Road. And also CUP 02-035,
request for a Conditional Use Permit to add several buildings on the same site. So at
this time I would like to open both hearings and start with the staff report.
McKinnon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I assume you have
all had a chance to review the staff report, so we will jump right into some overheads to
get everyone familiar with the location. The area that is bolded in the overhead picture
is the area we are discussing tonight for the preliminary plat. The schools would be
shown on the subsequent slides. The site currently houses the existing Meridian
Charter High School. This is a picture of the plat. As you can see on the plat, there is
along the southern boundary, a private road that leads back to the Hollister property.
That road will be abandoned. And you can see there is a new Herons Crossing Drive
that runs along the north portion of the property. You can see the existing high school
located in the southwest corner of the property. This is a picture of the overall
development site plan for the project. In the top right hand corner should be the
northeast corner of the property, is where the proposed new elementary school would
be located. To the east of the existing charter high school, there is a new high school
proposed at that location. That would be phases 2, 3 and 2-A of the project. Phase 2-A
is a parking lot associated with that. The overall development of this site will also
include a school administration building of which we do not have detailed plans at this
time. This is a conceptual conditional use permit as well so in the future we will see an
application come in for the school district building, the administration building. In
addition to that there is a possibility of at least one if not two more charter high schools
at this location, directly east of the existing and proposed charter high school. This is a
copy of the landscape plan. They are going to heavily landscape the property. If you’ll
note the far southern portion of the property is the area where the old private road used
to be that led back to the Hollister property. You will note now the school district is
proposing to include a pathway that will start from Locust Grove and continue all along
that area. A multi-use pathway. That will continue all the way up to the elementary
school and follow this south and then head to the – anyway, its along the south. On the
east and west, then it will head north south up to the elementary school. If we can jump
right into the application right now, if I could have you turn to page three of the staff
report. There are a couple corrections to take care of. In the preliminary plat site
specific comments, site specific comment number two, if you could please strike that
from the record when making a motion tonight. It is explaining a cross access
easement. That should not be a note on the preliminary plat. The property is owned by
one owner, which would be the school district, so there is no requirement for a cross
access easement. So if you could please strike that. If we could move all the way to the
site specific requirements from the Fire Department. This would be on page two, their
October 18th
report that was issued for this project –
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 3 of 19
Zaremba: Dave, I have been given an October 22nd
memo from the Fire Department
which is similar but adds a paragraph eleven.
McKinnon: That is just fine. The note I refer to is note number ten specifically, it talks
about the possibility of the public safety education center. Prior to the meeting I handed
out copies of this document that shows the possibility of the location for this site. We
just received this prior to the meeting, so I do not have an overhead for this, I have
extra copies at the staff table. It is just – it would just be in the northern portion,
centrally located adjacent to the phase two parking lot area on the overhead. It would
be for a safe house where the Fire Department can bring in elementary age children
and other people to do demonstrations and educate people about fire safety and
possibly to be used by the Fire Department for training purposes. In addition to that,
you should have all received a copy of the ACHD staff report. In the ACHD staff report,
there are two things I feel I should point out to you that I feel are of importance. The
first would be on page two of the draft staff report. It would be under item number
three. With the overall build out of this project, there are two intersections that will go to
a level service of F, and that is gridlock level. That is a high level of traffic that is
indicated by a high number of seconds in a delay. We realize that this will happen but
there is a need for the schools and we felt as well as the Ada County Highway District
that this should not be an impediment to that, but we have to point out to you that this
will bring an awful lot of traffic into this area and will have an effect on the roadways.
Then if you could turn to page ten of the draft report, there is a special notification to the
applicant and to the city of Meridian. I point this out to you because its not included in
our staff report. We do not believe that this is something that necessarily had to come
from staff, and we would like your opinion on this tonight. As you can see, it talks about
the internal parking lot configuration. You will see that if you start on Locust Grove,
centrally located running through, that would be uninterrupted access towards the
elementary school. Ada County Highway District felt that it would be appropriate to
eliminate cut through traffic. There are a couple of ways that could be done and you
may want to discuss that tonight. We didn’t feel that this is something as important
enough from staff or that we had enough information on this at a staff level to require
any block of that happening. We feel that this is a site that has adequate access. We
feel that cut through traffic will not be something of major concern, however, that is
something I wanted to bring before you tonight in case you wanted to discuss that.
With that, I would like to state that the City of Meridian is in support of this. We realize
that the applicant is under the gun to get this done in a quick period of time and we
want to support that as much as we can. I have had discussions with the applicant on
the majority of the staff report. They may have a few comments but I believe everyone
is in agreement. It is going to be fast project. They want these schools open next year
in the fall. So this is something they are going to have to go like gang busters on. The
elementary school site is going to be built very similar if not identical to the new
Ponderosa Elementary school located near the corner of Black Cat and Ustick Roads.
With that I would ask if you have any questions of me and we can go into the public
hearing.
Borup: Any questions from the Commission?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
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Zaremba: I am not totally clear – I would have some explanation between the
explanation of the difference between a charter school and a normal high school. In the
Comprehensive Plan it states that high schools would be – or a traditional high school
though it doesn’t call them that – would be on 55 acres. These don’t appear to be going
that way and I could stand some education on the difference between charter and
traditional high schools.
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba, I believe that is a question best
answered by the applicant’s representative from the school district tonight. He can
jump on that.
Borup: Would the applicant like to present their project?
Thowless: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, my name is Wayne Thowless.
I am an architect with Latham Krohn Van Ocker. We are the architects for the project
that is before you tonight. Briefly, relative to charter high schools – charter high schools
are a public high school that is allowed under state statute. It does not need to meet,
by state statute, all the requirements for a traditional public high school. By state
statute, the enrollment limit of a charter high school or charter school of any type is 200
students. The existing Meridian Charter High School presently has an enrollment of
just under 200. The proposed second charter high school which will be a separate
autonomous entity from the first charter high school, will also have by state statute, a
maximum enrollment of 200. If the two other proposed charter high schools were
constructed, maximum high school enrollment on this site will be 800 students. That is
well less than half of the enrollment of a traditional high school like Meridian or
Centennial where the enrollment is approximately 2000. So they are public entities but
there is an independent board that oversees them. They are an independent entity
from the school district. The school districts involvement is that of landowner and
building owners. The facilities are leased to the independent entities that run the
charter high schools. Does that answer your question?
Centers: At tax payer expense?
Thowless: They are still tax funded.
Centers: And I think you have missed what I have read, anyway, the real reason for a
charter high school, which I support, is that they specialize in certain curriculum.
Thowless: That is correct.
Centers: What is going to be the specialty here?
Thowless: The existing charter high school, Meridian Charter High School, their
curricular focus is computer and communications technology. The charter high school
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October 24, 2002
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that is in the planning stages now, the curriculum emphasis of it is going to be health
professions, health occupations.
Borup: Any thing else you need to add to this?
Thowless: I think Mr. McKinnon did a good job of giving an overview of the project, the
two requests before you tonight. But I would be happy to entertain any further
questions for further clarifications with regard to design issues or platting issues. We
also have a representative from J-U-B Engineers here tonight to answer technical
questions regarding the platting.
Borup: Questions from the Commission?
Zaremba: I do have a couple. The new drawing that was just given to us, indicating a
possible location for satisfying the Fire Department request for another educational
facility. You are in agreement with that, or you provided that?
Thowless: We prepared that drawing ourselves. We and the school district are in
support of that request. We believe it will be a good compliment to this educational
campus.
Zaremba: This may be too early in the planning process to ask this question, but would
it be just as useful to face it on this parking lot and not have the access from the street?
Thowless: I don’t know if we, or the school district has a strong position on that. I think
ultimately it needs to be where the Fire Department thinks it is most appropriate, given
that it will be a facility that they run and operate. Thoughts on that, Wendell?
Zaremba: Let me ask one more question while you are on – on the Fire Department,
the newest Fire Department memo was October 22, 2002. They added a paragraph
eleven which was the request that you provide Opticom sensors at the – I imagine they
are talking signalization at Heron. Is that something you are agreeable to?
Thowless: To be honest, I don’t know what Opticom sensors are.
Zaremba: It is something that allows their truck to change the light – an exciter kind of
thing that allows the truck to change the signal in their favor.
Thowless: To my knowledge there will not be a signal initially anyway at that location.
But I don’t think the school district would have a problem with that upon such time that
one is developed.
Bigham: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, two points of clarification – Wendell Bigham,
Meridian School District Supervisor of Facilities and Construction – a quick comment on
the Opticom. We entrust ACHD to determine where lights are appropriate and what
type of infrastructure needs to go into those lights. We are in support of the Fire
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October 24, 2002
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Department’s desire to have the Opticom system put in. But that is a piece that is
partial to the highway district’s signalization. So we are not opposed to that
requirement but we just cant guarantee when the light will go in or how many lanes will
be on the road. So at this juncture, we are in support of that position. Second thing I
would like to clarify briefly is the request by the Fire Department for the Fire Safety
learning center. This has come about very very quickly. This is before you tonight –
please consider it informational at this time. Monday night, the 28th
, we will run the flag
up the pole, if you will, with our board of trustees and seek formal blessing to continue
that discussion. So rather than come back after the fact, please consider it as
something that administration and staff will recommend in support to continue
discussions with our trustees on Monday night. Hopefully we will receive the blessings
to continue to cause that training center to be put in. So approval tonight needs to
reflect that our trustees have not acted yet.
Borup: Wendell, any comments on the ACHD report?
Bigham: Commissioner Borup, no. I have not particular case of heartburn on the
ACHD report. The only comment, and I think Wayne will address this in greater detail,
is whether or not the road will generate cut through traffic. It is a valid point, and we
would like to reserve the right to consider that piece of road as we look at buildings
number three and four. But the point is well taken and is one we talked about. So we
are pretty flexible with that. It is just that as those exact projects come in we would
evaluate that. But other than that, no.
Borup: Thank you. Was there anyone else from the applicant at this time? Okay. We
would to open up at this time for any public testimony, questions or comments. Do we
have anyone here who would like to testify on this application? If so, come forward.
Moyer: My name is Jim Moyer, it doesn’t show up there, but we are the eighth house
from Locust Grove on the right hand side that borders the property under consideration
tonight. I guess one of the comments we would like to make is that originally we
understood it was going to be a campus situation for the zoning. Now it looks like it will
be fire, elementary school and campus. If the specialized campus has four subjects
that they are specializing in, I think that sooner or later, we basically created another
high school. We are concerned with the – we wrote a letter in the first zoning process,
gathered signatures from most of the citizens on the northern border of that property,
which we were very concerned about lights and activity and suggested that the
minimum should be some sort of site fence so we are not disturbed by lights and noise
created by this development. Also there is a Nourse Lateral that goes through, quite a
sizable ditch that goes, that is the property division between the school and the citizens
on the north. So we certainly would like to see something done in the way of tiling or
covering that ditch. We are concerned about noise. Certainly not too enthused about
watching school kids all day long. You know there is going to be a lot of activity and I
guess I am concerned tonight about expansion of the original plan and also the
involvement of the Fire Department. (Inaudible) another project where the Fire
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October 24, 2002
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Department had activity and it is pretty much ongoing if they have a practice facility
there for the Fire Department. So those would be my concerns at this point.
Zaremba: Let me clarify the Fire Department involvement in this. They requested that
they be given an area to be built something like a home into which they can take
children for educational purposes about how to respond in case of a fire. This is not a
really, even though the Fire Department wants to operate it, it is a not a fire building.
They won’t be practicing – I am sure they won’t light it on fire in order to tell kids how to
respond, it is just an educational facility for children. Not an active Fire Department
thing.
Moyer: They are planning a Fire Department house across the street, a couple
hundred yards away from this facility, so –
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, and I am sorry, I didn’t catch
your name –
Moyer: Jim Moyer.
McKinnon: Mr. Moyer. The building that they are going to be building, is where they
are actually going to get the building to be placed here. The existing manufactured
home that is on the Locust Grove site where they will be building will be transferred to
this location, modified to meet ADA standards and be put on a permanent foundation
and landscaped at that location.
Zaremba: But I think the question that the general public doesn’t have the details of
what that facility will be. I can see that there would be some misunderstanding that this
is going to be a forty foot tower where the Fire Department is going to practice their –
Moyer: There is considerable activity in their education process –
Zaremba: But that is not what this facility is – it is to explain to children how to respond
in case there is a fire in your house.
Moyer: And will this involve other schools other than this one?
Zaremba: I am sure they will bring them in from other schools.
Moyer: So it seems to me there will be quite a bit of activity and scheduling for that.
Centers: Mr. Moyer, regarding your comment on the ditches, that is a requirement staff
has made to have those tiled.
Borup: Is there concern about access to the water in the ditches?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
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Moyer: Well, there is a diversion for the subdivision. It would be at the northeast corner
of where our subdivision is supplied with water.
Borup: That will stay, that will not be interrupted.
Moyer: My concern was with the Nourse Lateral, it’s quite a sizable ditch.
Borup: Right and also there will be a solid fence along that boundary. Six foot cedar is
what they are proposing on the plan along the whole boundary here. Here is a copy of
the fire project if you are interested, take that and show the others if you would like.
Moyer: Thank you.
Borup: Any other questions from the Commission?
Centers: Just one other thing for Mr. Moyer, the way the Fire Department states that
building – it says a site for public safety education center. If we act on this, they will be
held to that verbiage.
Moyer: I think that is quite broad. Personally I think it is quite broad.
Centers: A public safety education center. Depends on how you want to interpret that I
guess.
Borup: Thank you. Do we have anyone else?
Steinbach: My name is Joe Steinbach. I live in the Heritage Subdivision. I am
concerned – we are on the north side – my family as well as these other people. Kind
of repetitive of what Mr. Moyer talked about, but I would start off with the inadequacy of
the road. You talked about ACHD and maybe kind of an inappropriate comment at this
time, but I thought maybe they were going out of business. But the road surrounding
the schools and all the schools in Ada County have been inadequate. This will be just
another inadequate road. When you first put this project in, you didn’t have sewer and
water out there, but we were able to get them out there during this speed up process of
getting this charter school going. Which was quite a bit of a disappointment to me.
These are my tax dollars and their tax dollars that we are spending. And my income
level isn’t as high as most of you guys that are paid public officials and I am not.
Zaremba: We are all volunteers sir.
(Inaudible)
Steinbach: Anyway, I feel that these roads are extremely inadequate. Not only in this
target area, but also the rest. But the point being this situation right here. As far as the
extra bells and whistles with the Fire Department to getting there, that is more of my
money spent. When I went to school, they told us what to do in the even of a fire. So I
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
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don’t understand why we have to have a fire training facility now on this campus, which
was just to be a charter school, and now we are going to have a fire charter training
area. That is my comment on that.
Centers: Let me interrupt Mr. Steinbach. I thing the theory is, there is going to be a lot
of students right there that they can bring to that building. The Fire Department, correct
me if I am wrong, but I think that is the theory. I have seen this from the applicant. You
have a lot students right there, it just makes sense to have an education center right
there at no cost to the students. They have the building now, they just want to move it.
But go ahead, I am sorry to interrupt you.
Steinbach: How much training do you need to get out of your home in the event of a
fire?
Centers: Well, I happen to be an adult. Some children need more training.
Steinbach: Who is to say what is adequate or inadequate?
Centers: Depends on the parent.
Steinbach: Point in case, I oppose the fire system.
Centers: I see that.
Steinbach: Mr. Moyer talked about a fence. You have proposed a cedar fence. I would
request and some of these others, if there was a berm, that seems to be popular break
for the noise pollution that we deal with. I would propose that to be of consideration as
well as a chain link fence and have that – where they put those bars in. What do you
call those bars in between?
Borup: You mean slats?
Steinbach: Yes. It seems they withstand the weather, the environment, they are easily
repaired. Most of the wood, cedar fences, in a few years tip over and lean and require
a lot more repair. So if this project is to go through, that would be my proposal, as a
request to you folks to please take into consideration.
Centers: Mr. Steinbach, could you please point out where your home is?
Steinbach: I am at 2065 Paradise Lane.
Centers: Am I getting warm or cold here?
Steinbach: Ninth house on the right hand side.
Centers: You are right in here.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
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Steinbach: That is correct.
Centers: Then the other individual Mr. Moyer is –
Steinbach: He is my neighbor. Then there is another neighbor a few houses down. It
was brought possibly to our attention that someone had requested an access from
Heritage Estates to access the school property. Is that correct or incorrect?
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I am not aware of that, but
Wendell is signaling that he has some information concerning that. He can address that
one.
Borup: Okay, we will get an answer on that. That has not come to the city Mr.
Steinbach. That request has not come to the city, sounds like someone has contacted
the school district with that though. We will find out. Do you have a comment on that?
Steinbach: Like I said, it was mentioned to me that there was a possibility of a request
from someone or someones in our subdivision who would donate an access from the
Heritage Estates to go into the school.
Borup: They are probably thinking so the children can walk rather than go out onto
Locust Grove – probably the reason for that request?
Steinbach: Yes. I would think.
Borup: We will find out about that. Thank you. Do we have anyone else who would
like to testify? Mr. Bigham, do you have some information on that?
Bigham: Commissioner Borup, a point of clarification, and I can’t remember the lady’s
name but she lives in the subdivision. I will say in the center lying eastern side,
somewhere in there. She came in inquiring about the schools, the layout, and then
brought up the discussion about the walking distance from the older subdivision to the
north onto the school campus and wanted to know how we had provided for that in
newer platted projects. I told her we try to coordinate access in a plat into a
neighborhood. She asked if we would be interested in one into this subdivision, and I
said absolutely yes, through support of the neighborhood. So what I left her with was
that if any of the property owners that are in houses five through nine or ten that come
onto the site of the school – yes, somewhere in that vicinity, if by some mechanism the
homeowners or a homeowner had a piece of land, I will say eight to ten foot wide, that
we could go in with a ten foot piece. We would put in a ten foot sidewalk and set the
chain link fence at nine feet and generally throw some landscaping on the homeowners
side and ask them to maintain it. To provide pedestrian access. We are nowhere
requiring that of the neighborhood, but if the neighborhood or someone felt that that
was advantageous to them, we would gladly work with that property owner or
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October 24, 2002
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homeowners association to acquire that land and construct that if that opportunity
should present itself to us.
Borup: So essentially you are saying the school district is open to that and they will put
it in, and you said landscape on both sides?
Bigham: Yes, we would be willing to entertain that proposition to see where it comes
into the site and make sure its advantageous –
Borup: Right, it would have to work for both.
Bigham: Yes, is it something that is practical? And the unfortunate thing is, is there a
property owner who is willing to step up and contribute? We are not going out and
seeking a property owner and trying to pin them down, if you will.
Borup: Any comment on the fencing?
Bigham: Commissioner Borup. No, at the end of the day we would prefer a chain link
fence to a cedar wood fence for the reasons mentioned. Kids have a way of knocking
slats out and they never look as good as the first 30 days they are put in. Our standard
fence as you are well aware is a six foot high chain link fence and I think we could look
at those areas where slats would be appropriate. To fence the whole area off, I would
like to reserve the right to consider that because we kind of create a concealed corridor
in terms of what is behind the fence –
Borup: I am sorry, I meant the fence on the boundary – on your northern boundary.
Bigham: We are in agreement that that needs to be fenced. We would like to use chain
link fence.
Borup: You would like to use chain link there.
Bigham: We are open to chain link or cedar but at the base of all of my concern is line
of site supervision, because that easement for the canal once tiled kind of becomes a
no man’s land. So we want to protect both sides, but we are open to those discussions.
Mr. Thowless is much more up to speed on the particulars there. We are certainly
amenable to what makes a good neighborhood.
Borup: The ditch easement isn’t going to be fenced on both sides it is? It is a buried
easement, right? Our plat shows the canal easement is on the school property side of
the line.
Bigham: I was in error then, sorry. I am use to that corridor look.
Borup: I didn’t see a corridor that’s why I asked.
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October 24, 2002
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Bigham: We are open to the fencing options.
Borup: With the slats then? Alright. David, I know – the city has – is there a problem
with the chain link fence as far as the ordinance?
McKinnon: There is no requirement for a specific type of fence, as –
Borup: As long as it’s a six foot fence?
McKinnon: We typically like to see something that is screened, site obstructing on
some types of use like this.
Borup: So the chain link with slats then would be okay?
McKinnon: We would not have any objection to that.
Borup: That is what Mr. Steinbach said his preference was to that. And I assume the
other neighbors are the same way? No. The question was, was there a berm? There
is not a berm proposed. One concern I would have with a berm, that is going to be
hauled in soil and then the problem of how the fence will hold up in soft dirt like that. At
least in my mind. Rather than in undisturbed soil. You can come up to the mike Jim if
you had another question. Just state your name again for the record.
Moyer: Commissions – Jim Moyer. I could envision something in the type that Lowell
Scott has along the highway, where the berm is offset from the fence a bit. Then the
fence is in better soil. I think the concern here is the property line as we know it, is right
in the middle of that Nourse Lateral. If they tile that –
Borup: They must be proposing to move it –maybe we will find out from the architect if
that is correct. But the site plan we have – well actually yes, right now it shows it about
about five feet from the fence. Then as it goes past the grade school, it cuts down on –
right now its shown coming to this point and then crossing here and then the lateral
coming across here on this side of the roadway.
Moyer: Because there is a sewer line coming through there also I understand.
Borup: The sewer line should be in the street. The irrigation easement shows it just
south of this street. Is that how the others are interpreting the plan?
Zaremba: I see Bruce nodding his head also.
Borup: Thank you.
Freckleton: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, the sewer will traverse down
the right-of-way and it will be fairly deep. It wouldn’t be a problem, would not conflict
with the irrigation.
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October 24, 2002
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Borup: I was going to ask – I am thinking about this berm. Jim I may have another
question on this berm. If you have a fence there at grade and then put a fence along
side it, that enables the kids to stand on the berm, look over the fence and – which
defeats part of the purpose of the site obstructing fence, doesn’t it? Well the higher the
berm, the more they will see over the fence.
Moyer: (Inaudible)
Borup: There is – David, would you put the landscaping design up again please?
Those are trees all along there. Now I don’t think we got one of these in our packet, did
we? Okay I thought maybe I was the only one.
Freckleton: One other thought that popped into my mind. If you have a fence on the
downslope side, these folk’s side of this berm –
Borup: Then you have that hidden area there.
Freckleton: You are creating an area where kids could hide back there – or whatever
could go on on the backside of that berm. Just something to think about.
Borup: I think that is probably part of the concern about having a hidden area. Did you
have a comment Mr. McKinnon?
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, Wayne just brought to my
attention, a section of code that talks about cyclone or chain link fencing. It is in the
landscape ordinance and justifies the reason why the school district requested initially
the wood fence. It has to deal with the fact that between land uses, it specifically
prohibits chain link fencing. However, because we are dealing with a planned
development, you can make modifications to the requirements through the planned
development. They have requested this approval as a conditional use permit for a
planned development. In addition to that, if the buffer material is requested by the
neighbors to be something other than the proposed, and it goes against code, I think we
are covered in both directions to say that people have asked for the chain link with
slats, the school district would like chain link with slats. So the buffer is agreed upon
and should be something other than wood is appropriate. Through the PD process,
when you make your motion tonight, please make sure there is a specific motion to
allow for that through the PD process.
Borup: Thank you. Are those trees specified in the landscape ordinance or is that a
draft? The spacing looks a bit closer than even required by ordinance.
McKinnon: The spacing is closer, and the reason is for a buffer between land uses.
Borup: Any discussion between the Commissioners?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 14 of 19
Zaremba: Let me just clarify what we are being asked here. The preliminary plat is for
the lots and the buildings we are approving tonight are the elementary school and the
second charter school. At this point, not officially approving any other buildings? Giving
the applicant of whether we agree or not.
Borup: And is that also correct, David, that they are looking at a build out in 2012?
McKinnon: That is a projected build out, I don’t think that is something we should tie
into an approval –
Borup: That is something they are estimating, depending on growth?
McKinnon: Growth is playing a big factor and one other thing to add too, that we need
to discuss a bit tonight, and I think we have discussed a few times tonight already,
would be the fire department request. You may want to make a specific finding or
condition concerning that. I should add at this point, that Brad Hawkins-Clark and I had
some discussions today about how to handle the fire department building. Typically
when we deal with an educational campus, if we deal with an elementary school, a
junior high school, middle school – when someone wants to bring on a modular home,
we handle that as a staff level approval because its part of the educational campus and
was already approved. We believe that this is something that would be best handled on
a staff level approval, and that when you make a motion tonight, you may want to
include that this be allowed through a staff level process rather than come back to you
at a separate time through a conditional use permit.
Zaremba: I probably wouldn’t expect the Fire Department to conduct training in there at
10:00 o’clock at night but should we ask for a limit on hours of operation so that the
neighbors are only disturbed mid-day?
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Zaremba, educational facilities such as
elementary schools, the high schools, typically are not prohibited from being used at
different times or at night. If there an educational program that takes place at night, it
may be the appropriate time to do that. Limiting it at this point without knowing their
curriculum or what type of services they will be providing I believe would be
inappropriate at this time.
Borup: Any education use would be inside the building probably. Did the applicant
have any final comments or anything? I think we have covered things as we went
along.
Thowless: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, just a couple final items and
then Mr. Bigham has a couple last comments also. With regards to the proposed
landscaping along the north boundary, we are proposing a variety of trees. Some
deciduous and some evergreen. We believe that what we have proposed is in keeping
with the requirements of the city’s landscape ordinance. I just wanted to clarify that it
would be a mixture of species. Some would be green and provide screening year
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 15 of 19
round. Others would not. That is a very long property line a we feel variety is important
as opposed to one line of the same species.
Borup: These are the evergreen here, and deciduous here?
Thowless: Yes, most of the evergreens are down adjacent to the elementary school
where the greatest amount of screening and buffering is warranted.
Borup: Mr. Bigham.
Bigham: Wendell Bigham again. Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. Point of clarification
as to what the district understands the Fire department is going to propose Monday
night to our trustees. That it is in fact, I will call it the double wide trailer house – that is
currently sitting on the proposed fire station site on Locust Grove. North of us here.
Parking for three to four cars and possible one fire truck. The training is school districts.
This is strictly a fire department program and we are trying to partner with them as a
good neighbor. Geographically this is a good location for central services for both the
school district, as an area that encompasses outside of Meridian City. Also,
geographically a good location for the Fire Department to have a citywide training
facility. Specifically as I understand it, it is fire safety training for K through 3rd
grades.
They come in a bus from various schools. They are there for a 20 to 30 minute period
of time where they are educated with everything from dealing with grease fires to
microwave fires and up to and including how to exit a bedroom window over a rope
ladder. So it’s a true training and learning experience for the children. I am under the
impression for those activities since they are bussing students from the other schools,
will occur during the school day if you will. I have not heard of any off hours or weekend
training. However that decision is that of the Fire Department. We are simply trying to
cooperate with them to provide a geographically central cost effective utilization of both
our resources. So we are not sure quite what that partnership looks like. But that is
what I expect to present to trustees Monday night.
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I have a question for the
applicant. Wayne, can I get you to come up to the mike for a second? Bruce just
brought up a good question that needs to be answered while we are still in Public
Hearing. Along the northern border of the subdivision, I guess from the midpoint, east to
west, going east, there is a 30 foot wide – it’s the Nourse Lateral, I am guessing its
Settlers Irrigation District. You show an awful lot of trees in that easement. Have you
talked with Settlers on whether or not they will allow you to plant trees in that
easement?
Thowless: Mr. McKinnon, unless you are looking at something I am not aware of, I
believe that we situated – (***End of Side One***) the easement for the Nourse Lateral
ten feet off the property line so that the trees could be planted on the edge of their
easement and not encroach within it. Is that what the plat you are looking at indicates?
There should be ten foot strip of land and then the 30 foot easement.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 16 of 19
Borup: Our site plan indicates that, but he is looking at the landscaping plan I believe.
Freckleton: Wayne, does the piped ditch run on the north boundary of that 30 foot
easement? It appears that the pipe is the north boundary of the easement. Is that
right?
Thowless: No, the actual pipe would be located more or less centered in the easement.
Zaremba: So it’s like 25 feet from the property line, the center of the pipe would be –
Thowless: That is our intent, correct? Yes.
Borup: Do you know what size that pipe is?
Thowless: I believe its 24 inch.
Borup: That is what I would have estimated. Why do they need a 30 foot easement for
a 24 inch ditch?
Thowless: You will have to ask the irrigation district.
Zaremba: They want to be able to turn those trucks around.
Thowless: They are also requiring a paved access lane from East Heron’s Crossing
along the north, on that portion of the easement that runs along the north side of the
elementary school. A grass playfield is not sufficient access apparently.
Freckleton: Mr. Chairman. Wayne, scaling this and looking at it, the piped ditch is ten
foot from your north boundary. Then the 30 foot easement starts from that point and
goes south.
Borup: While they are looking at that, any discussion from the Commission? Before we
prepare to close?
Freckleton: Mr. Chairman, it appears that there is a graphical error on the preliminary
plat map. The applicant’s engineers’ representative has indicated that the north edge of
the easement will be ten foot from the property boundary. The ditch as piped would be
an additional 15 feet or centered in the 30 foot easement. So it would be 25 feet from
the north boundary to the ditch, the pipe.
Borup: Plenty of room for landscaping and trees.
Freckleton: Yes, thanks Wayne.
Centers: And I think that is well said for the record.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 17 of 19
Borup: Commissioners?
Zaremba: Do we want to discuss ACHD’s comment about cut through traffic or leave it
alone?
Borup: Mr. Bigham indicated that he –well if I understood him correctly, he felt that its
better discussed when they plan on doing those next phases because that is when it
would apply.
Centers: And I don’t think they want the cut through traffic any more than ACHD or
anyone else. I would like to move we close the Public Hearing.
Zaremba: Second.
Borup: Motion and second. All in favor? Any opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Centers: Mr. Chairman, I have a question for our assistant city clerk, Sharon. How
many letters went out to neighbors on this project? I couldn’t find it my packet.
Smith: If you will give me just a moment, I would be happy to take a look.
Centers: And I guess while I have the microphone, there are subdivisions to the north,
to the south, to the east and to the west, all over the City of Meridian, are requiring this
Commission to look at something like this application. We need schools. We didn’t ask
for the schools, they are required. The new high school on Overland. A beautiful site.
Traffic is going to be horrendous. But I understand that the ACHD realized that when it
went in. Now its set for widening I think, getting a shake or two of the head, I think it
should be completed by 2004.
Zaremba: Starting in the 2003 plan.
Centers: It won’t be completed when the high school is open, guarantee that. Which is
the fall of next year. I live in a neighboring subdivision, and I am thrilled, you know,
thinking boy the traffic is going to be severe. But the City of Meridian, growth, schools, I
have to put up with it. If I don’t want to put up with it, I have to move. I am happy
presently where I am at. As far as traffic, I totally agree with you. It is going to be bad.
But I have to think, the roads will come, the widening will come, as it always does. The
development has to happen first then the roads come to them. That is the nature of the
ballgame. They can’t put the roads in first and then hope to sell the land to a developer
or a school district. So I think we need to move forward and get it moving so we can
add some more schools. How many letters Sharon?
Smith: Commissioner Centers, we had sent, on October 4th
, fifty-one mailings to
surround property owners.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 18 of 19
Centers: Single family homes.
Smith: Fifty-one individual addresses.
Centers: You know the reason I wanted to see that was that I think we have five or
maybe four homeowners here. That is my point. Thank you.
Smith: You’re welcome.
Borup: Comments from anyone else?
Centers: No comments, I want to make a motion here. This applicant and these
citizens deserve all the time we can give them and should give, but there is a game.
And I am a Giants fan. So I would like to make a motion that we approved PP 02-023,
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of two building lots and one other lot on 39.23
acres in an R-4 zone for Education Campus Subdivision by Joint School District No. 2,
located at 3800 North Locust Grove. Including all staff comments and under preliminary
plat site specific on page three, strike item two. Fencing referred to shall be chain link
with the I believe they are plastic shielding material – slats. And I think a good non-
offensive color, maybe green, I don’t know. Including Fire Department comments – their
comment number ten they would like to enter into a discussion and I don’t think we
have any problem with that. I don’t have any problem with staff approving their
proposal if the school district and the city fire department work together on that. The
school district has assured us that they will talk to any neighbors regarding a walkway
access path. Is that the best way to describe that? And we are taking them at their
word that they have had one contact from a homeowner, I would include that.
Borup: Did we need some clarification on that easement? Is it clear on the plat?
Centers: I would say the way Bruce worded it earlier on the record would be part of this
motion. Regarding item ten on page ten of the ACHD report. I agree with the school
district that they be allowed to address the cut through traffic in the parking lot as the
project develops. I am open if I missed anything.
Rohm: I will second that.
Borup: Motion and second. Any discussion? All in favor? Ayes. Any opposed.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: That was the motion on the preliminary plat. We do have one more. You did
kind of combined –
Centers: The fence was not in the CUP, that was the plat. No I didn’t really combine
them. I would like to recommend approval to City Council for Item Five, CUP 02-036,
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
October 24, 2002
Page 19 of 19
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for an educational campus, consisting of an
elementary school, a charter professional / technical high school building and school
administration center in an R-4 zone for Education Campus Subdivision by the Joint
School District No. 2 at 3800 North Locust Grove including all staff comments.
Zaremba: Second.
Borup: Motion and second. Any discussion? All in favor? Any opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: Thank you. Thank you everyone who was here. So the fence was changed to a
chain link. We have one final motion.
Zaremba: Mr. Chairman, I move we adjourn.
Mathes: Second.
Borup: Motion and second to adjourn. All in favor? Ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: Meeting adjourned at 7:00 p.m. Thank you.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:00 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
KEITH BORUP, CHAIRMAN DATE
ATTESTED:
SHARON SMITH, DEPUTY CITY CLERK