2001 06-21 SpecialMeridian Planning and Zoning Commission June 21, 2001
Special Workshop
The special workshop of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission was
called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Thursday, June21, 2001, by Chairman Keith
Borup.
Commissioners Present: Keith Borup, Bill Nary, and Jerry Centers.
Commissioners Absent: Sally Norton and Keven Shreeve.
Others Present: Steve Siddoway, Bruce Freckleton, and Will Berg.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
O Sally Norton X Jerry Centers
X Bill Nary O Keven Shreeve
X Chairman Keith Borup
Borup: We’d like to begin our special workshop of the Planning and Zoning
Commission for June 21st
. The purpose today is to discuss the Comprehensive
Plan, plan of action. Our first Public Hearing is the 28th
.
Nary: One week from tonight.
Borup: Do we have a definite place? Is it the high school?
Berg: Meridian High School Auditorium.
Borup: Do you really think there’s going to be that many people there?
Nary: I guess we’ll find out.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Now, have you got any more information on a format?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: That’s one thing that I’d like to do maybe just see what staff’s got then
maybe discuss how we would want to approach that. I’ve got a couple ideas.
Siddoway: Why don’t we maybe briefly talk about some of the logistics related
to the meeting itself? Then we do have something that (inaudible) go over briefly
which is my understanding from the last meeting. I wasn’t here but there was
some question about how the draft relates, the proposed Comp Plan relates to
the 93 plan, what’s been changed and why has it been changed? Brad and I,
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 2
yesterday and today put (inaudible) together that addresses just that so, we’ll go
through that a little bit. The location is the High School Auditorium right Will?
The time, I have down 6:00 and 6:30. (Inaudible).
Borup: Do you have a copy of the letter?
Siddoway: I don’t so I am wondering which it really is because I keep hearing
different times.
Borup: I’m not going to tell you what it is but I’ll read what it is.
Freckleton: 6:30.
Siddoway: We have it reserved until like 10:30, actually 11:00 but quit at like
10:30 to get people out of there by 11:00. Talking with Shari, some of the
concerns that her staff had at the time, they didn’t think really that we should
probably go a real late meeting anticipating that we’re probably going to have to
have another meeting to follow up. (Inaudible) four hours from 6:30 to 10:30
anyway. (Inaudible). Just cut it off at 10:30 then lead people out. If there’s still
testimony, continue it. The continuation, (inaudible) determine location at that
time. The auditorium at the high school is going to be under going some carpet
replacement. (Inaudible). We may not be able to have it there at the next
meeting but at least we’ll get a feel for how many people are there.
Borup: (Inaudible) know how much we need next time?
Siddoway: Yes I’ll be kind of getting with the district to see some options if we
have to go to the middle school for a larger area.
Freckleton: Assuming it is continued, do we have -- have you talked with the
other Commissioners about dates that they would want to continue to because
they usually are special meetings? (Inaudible)
Borup: I guess in my mind, I was anticipating that it would.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: You can always decide at the meeting.
Centers: What are they generally 30 days apart?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: It doesn’t have to be re-noticed because it’s continued.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 3
Berg: It just has to be continued and make sure at that meeting that we tell when
and where.
Centers: Maybe we can discuss it that night?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I think it would be good if we have stuff already in mind.
Centers: Yes, so we get it (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: The only thoughts I had were (inaudible).
Centers: (Inaudible) any other ideas on how to handle it. I don’t know why we
couldn’t go through and see if there are any questions on maybe Chapter 1 by
itself, I don’t know. Or it could be lumped in. Really Chapter 1 through 6 and
any testimony on that stuff can be handled all at once. I’d be surprised if we got
more than two people.
Siddoway: Actually, let me jump in here. In terms of what I think you were
asking, the time limit on the testimony, Shari had said that it was decided in the
joint meeting with Council and Commission there would be 3 minutes per person
unless they are (inaudible).
Nary: I don’t think we made that clear.
Borup: That was discussed. My question on that is how do determine whether
they’re speaking for a group?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: You have to be clear up front that if they are speaking for a group
they need to state so up front.
Centers: The problem we have, sometimes, is they’re speaking for a group and
then everybody in their group gets up and talks too. Somebody in the group
says well that isn’t exactly the way I thought (inaudible).
Borup: (Inaudible) and this guy stood up and started talking. I said you raised
your hand that the other person for you -- why are you up here talking? He said I
didn’t understand what you meant.
Siddoway: Depending on the size if it’s a really large size, it could be quite
important to be pretty vigilant on that time.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 4
Borup: Well, I can do that. We’ve got a timer. We haven’t used it much lately
but it’s been all right.
Centers: How did the people receive notice?
Siddoway: A lot of people have been tracking it through the process and have
been on our mailing list to get it sent out.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: We have a list of everyone who’s been involved to date and has
requested to be on it. They were all sent notice about the draft coming out I
didn’t see the latter that went to them. I think it went out before we had a specific
(inaudible). So, I’m not sure how specific it was on the hearing date. It has
definitely been noticed in the statesman. How else have you noticed?
Berg: It’s gone publicly, or published in the Statesman and in the Valley Times.
We’ve faxed it out to a lot of different companies as well as our normal public
buildings to have them post it. We’re going to try to get it out to more people.
Siddoway: Definitely out to the Chamber of Commerce.
Berg: They’re always faxed. (Inaudible).
Borup: Has there been much response back?
Siddoway: Surprisingly little frankly. I was getting more calls before the final
draft went out than after. I was getting two and three calls a day before it went
out asking when’s it going to be out. As soon as it was out, we haven’t had any
requests to examine after I thought. The book in a three ring binder so it’s a little
bit easier for you to look at and compare the suggested amendments to the draft
to the June 20th
draft.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: If they wanted a copy of the draft, how do they get it?
Siddoway: We have copies.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: (Inaudible) that’s what the letter said, if they wanted a copy they
could come and pick one up.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 5
Borup: Pretty much everything’s going to be on Chapter 7 then? Is that your
feeling?
Siddoway: (Inaudible) what is Chapter 7?
Borup: The Urban Service Area, the map and the Land Use. Pretty much
everything that we think of when we think of the Comp Plan.
Siddoway: Yes there will be some on six too, transportation and the roads.
(Inaudible).
Borup: I did have a lot of questions on transportation. Meridian Road
(inaudible).
Siddoway: Yes, Shari brought that up today.
Borup: I asked her about that when I talked to her.
Siddoway: My hunch is that it’s an oversight from when Brad was drafting that
section. Meridian Kuna Highway is in there. He was thinking Meridian Road was
covered.
Borup: No the notes here specifically deleted it because it was already in the
first, -- in the draft. It was deleted from the changes.
Siddoway: The draft says to delete?
Borup: No, it was included in the draft but the revision notes said to delete it.
Siddoway: Wow, what page is that on?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: On Page 5 deals with (inaudible). Here we go, (inaudible) arterials.
Replace list as shown on Page 3. It doesn’t say to delete Meridian Road.
Borup: No, but that’s what happened. It says replace the list with the following
list. The list is the same except for Meridian Road.
Siddoway: That is the same except for it? (Inaudible).
Borup: It looked to me like it was all the same. There it is right here.
Siddoway: A lot of what was taken out was east of Black Cat Road, (inaudible)
Ten Mile Road, north of Victory Road. All of those references are out because
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 6
we designating the entire road as an arterial rather than just Cherry Lane east of
Black Cat Road. (Inaudible). All of those qualifiers (inaudible).
Borup: I was comparing the wrong list. I was comparing –
Siddoway: I’m on Page 50 in the book and Page 3 in the amendment.
Borup: I was comparing the arterial list of the collectors. Okay.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: I’ll make a note to look over that.
Borup: Oh, it’s the same. It just needs to say between Ustick Road and
(inaudible). Really I just (inaudible)
Siddoway: Yes that’s really what it does. You have to delete the qualifiers.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Then That Kuna Meridian Road thing just got abbreviated.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: I was thinking Highway 69. Typically where does that start? At the
freeway?
Siddoway: I think it starts at the freeway, technically.
Borup: When I saw that that’s what I thought that meant.
Siddoway: Maybe you should just add Meridian Road.
Borup: Unless there’s a reason to eliminate them.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: No, that was not the intention. I’ll make a note. In terms of the
hearing itself, the organization of how to take the testimony, you do it chapter by
chapter. Kind of like you do (inaudible). It was also discussed whether to take
the geographic areas of the City (inaudible) on actual land use information.
(Inaudible) the other way would be to organize it by topic. Okay, everyone who
wants to talk about the Urban Service Planning Area boundary. Everyone who
wants to talk about neighborhood centers. Do it that way. All of those have
faults for one reason another but, leaving it open (inaudible). We are actually
going to talk with our consultant tomorrow. We have a meeting tomorrow
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 7
morning at 10:30. (Inaudible) talk about (inaudible) she’s gone through several
(inaudible). Get her input on how to structure the testimony taking.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Are you going to have a (inaudible)?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I don’t know one by one. I just looking (inaudible)
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: The first 6 chapters I don’t think we’re going to get many comments.
Just get that out of the way.
Nary: If you want to decide and it doesn’t matter to me. Most of the time, public,
you know it’s very hard for people to focus their comments in one area if they
have three different (inaudible). If you want to not just take it all in mass. What
we can do, since we didn’t notice it up (inaudible)? We can use sign up lists and
identify on the sign up lists, you can sign up more than once under different
areas of topic. Whether it’s by geographic section, whether it’s by subject matter
(inaudible) you can sign up where you want then when you get done (inaudible)
get those lists. Depending on how many people are there, if those lists are you
know 5 pages each, you might be able to announce at the beginning of the
meeting now that we’ve gotten this. We have this many on this subject and this
much on this subject (inaudible) and decide at the beginning how do we want to
do this. Do we want to simply have 5 subject areas that have 5 people a piece
on it, one that has 100 people on it?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I don’t care but you can announce it up front. We’re going to do these
first. We’re going to do this next. If you’re here on that subject that’s fine. If
you’re not it may be a little bit, we can’t say how long it’s going to be. We’re
going to get through those lists. We’ll ask at the end of each session is there
anybody else that wants to talk about that subject matter that we were on. If not,
great then we’ll go on to the next list and we’ll talk about that. That way the
people will know right from the get go when they walk in the door, if they want to
sign up, you know if we’re doing it by chapters and they want to sign up for 4
chapters, or if we’re doing it by geographics or whatever they can sign up on
whatever ones they wanted to. Then there’s some structure for them (inaudible).
Then the other people are going to, hopefully, the first person that gets up and
he’s signed up on whatever subject matter list number one is and he starts
talking about something else. You’re going to be able to say, no all we’re taking
is this one right now and the other people in the audience are going to be going
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 8
they’re doing that because I want to get my two cents in and you’re taking up
time (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: (Inaudible) to structure it right from the get go themselves.
Borup: My choice is for subject matter. I can’t see any other way to keep order
and for us to keep track of what’s being said.
Centers: (Inaudible) I think you’re right. I think you’ve got to keep it in the same
subject matter for the recording purposes so you can see where people had
concerns about so if you want to make more changes you can. Otherwise you’re
going to be just flipping back and forth (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: Are you going to do an introduction that explains what a
Comprehensive Plan is so the people know all the facets that had to be put into
this and so they can understand why we’re doing this?
Borup: Just about word for word that Bill said at the last meeting. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: That’s on of things (inaudible). That’s the place I was going for.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: The next thing I was going to ask about was the initial (inaudible).
How much you wanted to see and how to present it. Most of the public won’t
have the benefit of these meetings that we’ve been through. Our initial thought
is that we would have our consultant Sherie Freemuth do the initial presentation
giving an over view of the Comprehensive Plan itself and the different topics that
are addressed using some form of on screen (inaudible). It would go through the
plan, perhaps by chapter, I don’t know (inaudible) but just briefly hit on each one,
what’s covered and make sure we hit on the main topics that we know are going
to be controversial. (Inaudible) about why they are doing that. Then whether its
her, whether its Keith, somebody then make the initial presentation about how
the hearing itself will be structured in terms of giving testimony like we were just
talking about. The time limits, the topics, the order –
Centers: Keith explains it then (inaudible) why we’re running it the we’re going to
run it.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 9
Siddoway: I would anticipate that presentation would be on the lines of 30
minutes.
Freckleton: Wouldn’t you want that presentation ahead of the people signing
up?
Nary: (Inaudible) I mean if we’re going to do it by --
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: (Inaudible) chapter. Keith (inaudible).
Borup: No, not necessarily.
Siddoway: I have an idea what a lot of the subjects are going to be.
Borup: That’s what I was – maybe we need to go through that. I don’t know,
definitions is one subject by itself.
Freckleton: (Inaudible) subject sign up sheet do you want to have?
Borup: I think the map and the Urban Service Planning Area are the two big --
Siddoway: The Urban Service Planning Area is part of the map. I’ll go over with
you tonight where we think most of the –
Borup: Here’s (inaudible) on the explanation. First explain to the people what a
Comprehensive Plan is, how it’s used by the Planning and Zoning Commission
and the City. How its processed and developed and how the Comp Plan gets put
together and give them a history. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Talk about what a Comprehensive Plan is, how the City uses a
Comprehensive Plan, a little bit about the process that we’ve gone through to get
here and then launch into the contents.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Yes.
Nary: Give them the state statutes. This isn’t something that we just made up –
Borup: The state requires.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 10
Siddoway: I made some extras too.
Borup: This is what you’re saying would be the subjects what you’ve already got
here?
Siddoway: Yes that’s why I gave you the original.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: This is what Steve thinks will be the main –
Borup: The main subjects?
Siddoway: This represents what we see as the main changes to the 93 plan.
Okay.
Borup: This looks good.
Siddoway: We’ve got 10 minutes so I will get them rather quickly. No. 1 is the
Urban Service Planning Area. Most of the written comments that we receive are
on this topic. The Urban Service Planning Area –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: That’s probably going to be a meeting all by itself.
Siddoway: The original (inaudible) plan, there was no distinction between Urban
Service Planning are and the impact area. The impact area was the Urban
Service Planning Area. (Inaudible) the original Comp Plan (inaudible) this and
the Urban Service Planning did that. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: What the change is that we brought it in to a smaller, more
(inaudible) area. It represents the area that either has urban services available
today or will have in the immediately foreseeable future.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: The definition would be that we already have a time line basically in
place for the White Drain. You know its things that are definitely in process,
happening. (Inaudible). This represents that boundary. These areas of
(inaudible) are providing urban services, have (inaudible) available or the white
drain case –
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 11
Centers: How many of these do you have?
Siddoway: How many what do I have?
Centers: The maps.
Siddoway: I have as many as you want.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: We need something set up on the easels before the meeting.
Siddoway: We were talking about that, actually having some in the back of the
room for the people (inaudible).
Borup: Probably at least one up front for us.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: What’s that?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Yes big maps.
Centers: Do you have a color overhead or something?
Siddoway: We could have it on the screen.
Nary: Yes I mean that’s what we should probably have when they’re talking
about certain subject matter.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: For instance, leave it in the text if they want to talk about a definition we
should be able to put the text that they’re talking about up on the screen.
Siddoway: Maybe you just need a copy of the Comp Plan on overheads?
Nary: Or if you have any in your computer, PowerPoint. You’ll be able to pull up
a page.
Siddoway: We could do that. We might just have it in Word. Leave it in Word.
Borup: That’s what I was thinking.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 12
Nary: But, you know what I’m saying? That way the whole audience knows
exactly where we’re focused at so they’re not all lost.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: (Inaudible) from the public or the input that you’ve gotten between the,
I guess the difference between the area of impact and the Urban Service
Planning Area is that they’re two different things. What’s the basis for them? I
mean I understand what –
Siddoway: We haven’t heard any confusion. What we’ve heard –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: We just heard reaction to we want to develop. Why are you putting
(inaudible)?
Centers: I hate to interrupt Steve because (inaudible) but how many square
miles or acres have you decreased it from the 1993?
Siddoway: I would have to count. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
nine (inaudible) twelve, thirteen, fourteen (inaudible). It would probably be more
than that.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: (Inaudible) some of them, I mean (inaudible) most of the comment is
we want to be in the area that’s developable and (inaudible) and services are
provided. I guess I wonder are we going to have a lot of people saying why are
there two different things? The area of impact versus the Urban Service
Planning Area.
Siddoway: Here’s the why. Why was the change made? One, its an effort to
establish priority growth areas where urban services are readily available. We’re
saying these are the priorities now. The City’s position is we’re still committed to
providing services to the entire Impact area within the 10-year time frame. We’re
still committed to that. All the way out is still anticipated to be part of the City.
We’re not saying we’re not giving you services. We’re saying services aren’t
available and we’re prioritizing the area within services -- are because of the glut
of development applications that have come in, wanting to develop helter skelter
throughout the impact area without regard to continuity and things, this draws
that line initially. Close in to the City limits then that line can be amended. It can
be amended next year. It can be amended by the developers through a process
which is outlined in the plan where they have to show that urban services are
either now available or fully committed.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 13
Borup: Will there be discussion on changing that (inaudible)?
Siddoway: Changing what?
Borup: The time.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Right now it’s every 6 months (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: There was just some discussion last meeting. I think Shari was saying
change it to 12 months rather than 6.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: So, that’s State Statute?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Okay that’s what I was wondering.
Freckleton: Steve is there some (inaudible) definition of Urban Service Planning
Area? Could it be called the priority Urban Service Planning Area? I mean that
might be part of the confusions, people think that that dashed line is a line in the
sand that we’re not crossing.
Siddoway: Right.
Freckleton: But if we said priority Urban Service Area –
Centers: I like that Bruce.
Nary: Something like that. I guess maybe because that, at least some of the
stuff I’ve seen so far, is that is exactly like Bruce said. The perception by people
that this is it for two years and the other one’s 8 years away.
Siddoway: We’re not saying we’re not going to get services. We’re saying
services aren’t currently available.
Nary: Right.
Siddoway: Before we bring you into it, show us that –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 14
Freckleton: Since the terminology isn’t statutory that might get away from that
impression. Like I said, (inaudible) but if you have something like Phase 1,
Phase 2. Something that shows that there’s some continuity to what the intent
is. That might take some of the heartburn (inaudible). Priority 1, Priority 2,
something in that direction.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: Where you’ve got the box that says impact area what if it said impact
area slash build out Urban Service Planning Area. Or something just to show
that this is our priority line, this is where our ultimate build out is. At least as of
today, the impact area is the line in the sand because that’s the furthest it can go.
Siddoway: Right that is the line.
Freckleton: The other stuff isn’t so maybe that’s way to get that message across.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: By drawing the line too and not allowing development outside of it
until urban services are available is, the developer can actually work with the City
on the standard issues of park sites, well sites. Fire Station sites, those public
services that are needed to really make that area truly serviceable. Then okay,
you know, you fully committed a park site in one form or another. You’ve either
sold or something or whatever. Water, sewer is available, urban services are
available now we say yes. Urban services are available we can adjust the line
so the development happens. After they meet certain criteria.
Centers: That’s what my concern is about. (Inaudible) 5-acre subdivisions.
Then how do you develop that? You don’t.
Freckleton: Will brought up a suggestion on just tonight’s process because I
don’t want to cut to short and -- appears that our agenda now, we only have one
item if you want to adjourn for a bit. When we get (inaudible) then we’ll come
back to this so you don’t have to (inaudible).
Borup: I was going to ask that of everybody else stay until 9:00.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I was anticipating this. I was maybe wanting to get to some of the other
stuff. Maybe think about, maybe this is the only priority. I don’t know if we’d
want to talk about any of the ordinance changes and stuff.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 15
Freckleton: See, I was just talking to Bill. I just don’t want you to get your mind
focused on this and then all of a sudden you don’t get all your questions
answered, you’re adjourning. Then it’s the 28th
.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: This is our last -- it’s a week from today.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: Just recess from this until after the regular meeting and then adjourn
the regular meeting and come back to your workshop and refocus and get some
of these questions and (inaudible).
Nary: What I’ve looked at so far, I really like this memo. I think it helps
(inaudible).
Siddoway: What we hope is that this could be a reference for you. When you’re
being asked why is this done? Well, we have this section, why was this change
made? We have that for each of them and hopefully that will help.
Nary: Are the criterias explained too? Like what you were saying what the City’s
looking at (inaudible) progressive development and the City basically developing
from the inside out. The time limits aren’t necessarily fixed in 2 year, 5 year, 8
years, or whatever. They’re fixed by the availability of the service. You know if
we get the availability of the service out to that particular area within 2 years
that’s fine. Then it’s available for development. If it takes us 5 years to reach it
then its 5 years. It’s not a fixed time limit because that’s what the City looks at
whether it’s annexation or any type of development (inaudible). That way I think
it’s another mindset to get people out of the mindset. You’re not going to have to
wait 5 years. If you help us get those things there and that’s the way (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: The White Trunk line (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I think this would be a good time to go ahead and adjourn.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: That’s what I meant to say.
Centers: I move that we recess this workshop until after our regular meeting
tonight.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 16
Nary: I second that.
Borup: Motion’s second. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: TWO AYES, TWO ABSENT
RECESSED AT 6:58 P.M.
RECONVENED AT 8:57 P.M.
Borup: Okay, we’re reconvening our Planning and Zoning workshop for
discussion of our Comp Plan. I would like to start in with the presentation by Mr.
Siddoway.
Siddoway: Just for the record again we’re going over the memo dated June 20th
,
yesterday’s date by Brad Hawkins-Clark and myself. This is a summary of the
major changes in the Comprehensive Plan from the 1993 plan to the proposed
plan that’s going through now and where we expect the most questions. We are
hoping this would be of use to you in answering some of the questions that will
be asked as to what’s changed and why. We’ve already kind of gone through the
Urban Service Planning Area boundary. Do you have any questions about that
before we move on?
Nary: What did you think about the idea that was brought up about –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Yes, identifying some of them.
Borup: That’s essentially what (inaudible).
Nary: Well, I think that’s the intent. I just think the way --
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: (Inaudible) people all hot and bothered that you know -- anti-development
and it isn’t intended to be an anti-development.
Siddoway: It’s too late to change it prior to the hearing.
Nary: Sure.
Siddoway: That certainly could be a recommended modification prior to going to
City Council. I wont have a problem with that.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 17
Nary: Then it would emphasize that its not intended as an anti-development plan
but it’s simply to control
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Okay the next big change is the addition of neighborhood centers.
The 93 plan (inaudible) a lot. There were a few of the policies out of the 93 plan,
neighborhood areas identified for future planning purposes (inaudible). All
neighborhoods should be developed, et cetera and recognize (inaudible).
There’s a lot of talk about neighborhoods. Look at what we have out there today.
There are not a lot of recognizable neighborhoods except for the fact that they
might have a stone at the entry into a subdivision. One doesn’t really feel like a
different neighborhood than the one next to it. (Inaudible). It also talks about
neighborhood shopping centers rather than strip commercial development.
There were several policies in the 93 plan that talked about this. For whatever
reason, they have not shown up.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Along the arterials, yes. Internal to themselves, no. We would see it
as a true mixed-use development come through as a Planned Development
mixed-use community (inaudible).
Borup: (Inaudible) a lot of discussion about limiting a previous project to
convenient stores and that kind of stuff. This is what (inaudible).
Siddoway: The design would be very different than the plat that you’re talking
about. The –
Borup: Well, I agree with that. It almost seems like sometimes we’ve got some
conflict in the (inaudible).
Siddoway: It’s because it’s two different types of development. In order to make
this stick we have to have some very specific design guidelines and regulations.
One of the immediate action items that the draft Comp Plan proposes an action
to develop those design guidelines for the neighborhood centers and the
neighborhood commercial areas as well as doing some specific area plans.
(Inaudible) can find some landowners that would participate (inaudible).
Centers: Would that also (inaudible) design review, the (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: A process you mean?
Centers: Yes.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 18
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: It doesn’t have to. I mean it could function under the current system
as long as there were clear guidelines for the Commission to use in evaluating
the project.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: (Inaudible) to do what you’re talking about, to create that neighborhood
feel or that type of (inaudible).
Siddoway: Also they comply with the plan that’s in place that sets the design?
Centers: Right. All of the development in that particular area goes through the
design process of the Ordinances that talk about that. They try to create the
(inaudible).
Siddoway: Yes the specific area plan is the term I’m using. If the specific area
plans were adopted for one of these neighborhood centers that could be adopted
by Commission and Council. Then the development would be bound to standard
Ordinances but also to this specific area plan that actually says (inaudible).
Nary: I was thinking that’s just kind of an after effect but you know we might
encourage the residential growth in that area to also want that. Although it’s a
historical issue in the north end, and that was brought about by the people living
there wanting to have that sole (inaudible) design criteria, those kinds of things.
They’re the ones that brought that forward. This may be the spur of that kind of
thing (inaudible). It provides a neighborhood identity.
Siddoway: (Inaudible) we researched this idea of neighborhood centers and
(inaudible) a lot written about it.
Centers: Shopping –
Siddoway: What’s that?
Center: Shopping center?
Siddoway: Not shopping center.
Center: Is that what you were referring too now?
Siddoway: The neighborhood centers?
Centers: Yes.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 19
Siddoway: What I was referring to is to do this, I know (inaudible) in 5 minutes
but like what I could do is I have an actual draft design guideline from another
city that we intend to pattern our own after. What it is, is a higher density mixed-
use residential area with a core commercial area that feels more like Old Town
Meridian than it does like the Albertson’s Shopping Center out on Cherry Lane
and Meridian. It gets away from the strip commercial with the big parking lot and
puts shopping out along the street that people can walk on and (inaudible).
Centers: So that’s your definition of the neighborhood shopping center?
Siddoway: Yes.
Freckleton: Do you think people will object to your words, shall be provided?
Whereas in the all neighborhoods in Meridian should be encouraged to develop.
But when you get down to neighborhood shopping centers –
Siddoway: Well, these are pulled out of the 93 plan. These are the ones that
we’re getting rid of actually. These notes here are pulled out of the 1993 plan.
I’m just showing you that the groundwork for these was laid in 93. We’re now
taking the next step. We’re going farther in the 2001 plan. We’re actually
showing them on the plan. These half circle moons are the neighborhood
residential, neighborhood center residential and then the red squares along the
arterials next to them are the neighborhood center commercial areas. We’ve
taken the next step. This (inaudible) partly there by actually designating some
notes. One of the differences with what we’re doing is these had them at the
intersections of two arterials. We and all of the literature that’s out there support
this. Put them on the half mile for two main reasons. One would be this
configuration really creates congested intersections at the arterials and we really
want to promote as efficient traffic transportation as we can and allow easy core
of movement along the arterials. That’s what our arterials are supposed to be.
Putting them on the half mile also allows them to be more integrated into the
neighborhoods that they’re actually intended to serve. People can walk to them
and use them.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Right exactly. This is the pattern that we are proposing.
Centers: What has been the general flavor of the comments on that?
Siddoway: We have not had many. When the 2000 draft came out, there was a
little blurb in there that they called the Greenfield Concept which was the basis of
this. It started out as just a very undefined concept. The comments that we
received said what does this mean? Where does it go on the map? Show us
what you mean, which is what we then did with this revision. There were also
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 20
comments. Here’s one comment on the Greenfield Concept. Needs more
specific standards and more specific locations to determine now so the public
has the input to the concept. (Inaudible).
Borup: The whole thing is going to be determined by development.
Siddoway: But, we’re setting the general location where we want them.
Nary: That’s what I was –
Borup: So, anyone developing in that area better be planning for them?
Siddoway: They better be planning foe it.
Nary: That’s what I wondered, are we going to get a lot of comments from
people saying well, I think it –
***End Of Side One***
Siddoway: Mainly on the east west half mile. We have one in front of north
south half a mile. We generally have them on the east west half mile to facilitate
better north south traffic patterns of people getting to the freeway on and off. To
look at this as primary, you know desire routes. In terms of looking regionally
and where people are trying to go and trying to get to go in the town of Meridian.
The north south is kind of the major one. Regionally everyone goes west along
the interstate but in this are people getting to the interstate or traveling through.
There are all kinds of desire routes but try to keep north south routes connecting
to the interstate and elsewhere the freest. Then when it made sense we put
them on a north south route. We also tried to -- they’re a mile apart. That’s the
standard, or the proper distance for the amount of residential that can actually
support a commercial center. If you look at the way things have developed, Fred
Meyer, Albertson’s, they’re developing about a mile apart. (Inaudible) in between
the major roads, they’re a mile apart. You can see that to where they’re actually
making (inaudible). We can get more detail on that.
Nary: No I think it sounds really good. I just wondered if there’s going to be a lot
of people saying well I think you should move that neighborhood center there
over a mile and those kinds of things.
Siddoway: Frankly, you know, we can respond to them one at a time because
each of them was thought about. This one was originally down here and it could
work down there. We felt it belonged up here because it has a better relationship
to the existing development that it could serve.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 21
Nary: What I’m thinking is just that some of it when we talked about really the
intent that we’re trying to get across to folks is the whole concept of this is that
phased in development phase and planning. That they may make some sense, I
mean if the development is going to sort of phase, like going south of town it’s
going to go from where it’s existing further south to the area of impact boundary.
You know maybe moving one of those further south might make some sense. If
there’s some flexibility to that, then I guess its fine. I don’t know (inaudible)
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Where they are is where we think they belong. It can always be
amended through a Comp Plan change (inaudible).
Nary: Somebody comes in and wants to develop an area a mile south of that
and has the land and the property and he wants to do it, we’re not going to
change the Comp Plan but it’s just like they said.
Centers: They always refer to this as a blob map. It’s not that particular parcel
has to be that.
Borup: That’s what I said. It’s not any different than the old map is it. You want
something in that general area.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: We don’t want it on the corners.
Borup: But, maybe the parcels don’t live right with the half mile. You’ll move it
300 feet if it needs to be.
Siddoway: This is another letter with 11 signatures on it. In the original 2000
plan, we didn’t have any of these, you know no commercial notes designated.
We just had strip commercial, commercial blob, commercial blob. Distribute
commercial around the entire City and impact area (inaudible). Surround that by
high-density areas and mixed planned use in the center at the square mile.
Develop (inaudible)
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Yes, it’s on Page 4 of the summary. Its letter No. 34. Anyway,
(inaudible). Just a history of bullets. Why did we make the changes? We talked
about a lot of it. (Inaudible). One I long term sustainability. Studies show that
these types of development hold the best viability over time. Alternative housing
choices for consumers would be the next one. Right now we get fairly (inaudible)
housing types. This would really increase the envelope of housing types that are
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 22
out there. Give them patio homes and townhomes. Having a note that is really
some of those smaller high-density things that then transition, get more of the
lower density things within the same neighborhood square mile so people have
housing choices within what feels like the same neighborhood.
Nary: The hardest thing with that though I think is this is a market driven type of
field. We’ve encouraged that in the City of Boise and still don’t have it except for
Harris Ranch because they wanted to develop that way. They came form the get
go and said we want to build this (inaudible). We’ve had those concepts for
three or four years and still (inaudible). I think it’s a good idea to have it. It just
seems like it’s such a hard thing to get done. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: It’s kind of like its market driven. (Inaudible) 80 people come out of the
box and say there are some other options (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: (Inaudible). It’s just I have this thing that I build and I want to build
(inaudible).
Nary: But I think we have a lot (inaudible). (Inaudible) house just like mine.
Houses, I’ve lived in a subdivision and (inaudible). I mean I agree I just think
(inaudible).
Siddoway: And some of that would still be available. We’re just saying increase
the choices.
Nary: I think it’s a great idea. I’m just saying it is a bit like a chicken and an egg
thing. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Tony Hickey’s got one or two articles of paper about his thing. He sold
one house in a year and a half.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: You’re not going to be able to dictate development. Hopefully what
you’re trying to do is plant a seed.
Centers: If you do dictate development you won’t have development. Are you
trying to dictate development because you just looked at mine?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 23
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: We are dictating, I think, I’m trying to see if I’m understanding you
right. We want to set some very stringent design criteria and density standards
for these centers. That is very much out of the norm –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: The City of Meridian doesn’t have the dollars to develop. So, you may
not get developed is what I’m saying. I firmly believe that. If you are real strict
with and have no flexibility as Keith referred to earlier in moving that 300 feet or
even a half a mile or even onto an intersection you know you don’t have the
money to build it. It’s the developers coming to build it with his money.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: They would rather have nothing than status quo.
Centers: I don’t disagree with that. That may be the case.
Borup: Some of these projects are talking about commercial area. They don’t
need to re-vamp what they’re doing. They need to re-vamp us.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: The biggest change (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Bridgetower’s going to have to do some changing. That doesn’t do it
they’re at an intersection.
Centers: I don’t know that I agree or disagree with the City (inaudible). What
you’re saying is if they don’t have it their way they don’t want it anyway. That’s
what you just said. Okay, if they want everything to be stagnate then so be it.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: They started at a different stage.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Where they didn’t have any growth.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 24
Borup: The only commercial growth area there is at the bypass at Eagle Road. I
don’t know that (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: (Inaudible) we talked about earlier is the concern of them applying
(inaudible) these outlying areas. Although the County has (inaudible). I think
what Commissioner Centers is saying is a legitimate concern. If it’s too
restrictive then the developer is going to say fine just go ahead and deny me so I
can go to the County and watch them approve me. All the ideas that we put
behind it go down the tubes because we’ve got those 5-acre lot subdivisions
where we wanted the neighborhood centers. (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: The County, you know there you’re subject to the same thing. (Inaudible)
they don’t have the same buy in and concerns to the Comp Plan as the City of
Meridian. They have some but not the same and its their interpretation. I guess
that would be my concern on too much restrictive ness with that. You’re going to
drive them away. You’re actually going to drive them to another City. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: The 93 plan was not adhered to correct? For the most part?
Siddoway: Those areas where the dots are actually haven’t –
Centers: I mean in a lot of ways it wasn’t. Is that correct?
Borup: I don’t think so. No, I think it was followed pretty close. If anything it’s
probably just the opposite. I think sometimes it was followed to close as if it was
law. (Inaudible) didn’t use flexibility.
Siddoway: (Inaudible) it’s just that a lot of it is undefined. The Comp Plan
doesn’t define things very well. So, there’s not a lot of guidance.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: But the boundary lines as we realized a month or so ago.
Centers: I guess what you see -- you know you hold every year or two.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: (Inaudible) change induced by City Council because you have new
faces.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 25
Siddoway: Not to belabor this. The other reasons why we think neighborhood
centers are a good idea. One is demographics (inaudible) basically that in a
large population, around 36 percent (inaudible) the City doesn’t drive and just
develop a pattern (inaudible). Alternative transportation (inaudible) more friendly
to transit, buses, et cetera. (Inaudible). A lot of people when you ask them what
they like about Meridian talk about the small town feel. The opposite if that is
sprawl and sprawl really is just endless subdivisions that are fairly (inaudible).
(Inaudible) having segregated (inaudible) is what people are talking are about.
Borup: (Inaudible) what type of businesses?
Siddoway: This does not.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Doctors and dentists office gets brought up every time.
Siddoway: Sure.
Borup: If everybody had that we’d have dentist’s office every 100 feet.
Siddoway: Barbershop, grocery store, and hardware store.
Nary: You don’t mean Wal-Mart grocery stores? You mean a small
neighborhood low profile?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: You mean more convenience store type things?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: I just want to say I totally agree with it. I would love this. I’m like that
person in the small town. I would love it if that turned out that way 10 years ago,
but I don’t know, you know I don’t know if you’re (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: You know a lot of those apartments around the Albertson’s store are
close to the (inaudible) out there.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: You can incorporate an Albertson’s into one of these. You may not
have one in every single one but even the size of the one down here at Meridian.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 26
They could, well, I was thinking the on at Meridian and Cherry. It can be
incorporated. The way it works is I wish the concepts here -- you would have a
couple of acres with that.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: What I envision is you have the arterial out here. You have the
collector street coming in on the half mile. You might have an acre, an acre and
they might have some parking that is off the – they always want parking visible
from the arterial so that people that are driving along it and wanting to stop at the
Albertson’s or whatever. Then lets say in here you’ve got a street and here are
the other shops you know that might be more like the Old Town thing. They’re
up to the sidewalk and they have some associated parking as well but this street
right here is very, very walkable. Something that people can come in from
houses that are across the street and they feel like they have a (inaudible).
Shopping centers that are very famous right around the (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I think the ones outside though -- I mean it seems like especially when
you’re talking like in the northern part of town. Is that a lot of those are going to,
if you get a grocery store there you will get a lot of that off street business. If you
don’t have a grocery store there you’re going to have (inaudible) for the
developer. You’re going to have to find some other kind of anchor type of
product there. Dentist office, doctor office, those kind of things. Which may or
may not be that viable I don’t know.
Siddoway: As an anchor, yes.
Nary: But the problem is grocery stores don’t want to get closer than a mile
together. At least I’ve read in a study they seem to be in market areas that have
much more competition than we have here. The reason as far (inaudible) Wal-
Mart, Fred Meyer, WinCo is because Albertson’s has so many more stores. It’s
likely to get Albertson’s to develop another two store a mile form town a mile
apart. They’re going to put one store there. Somebody else would (inaudible).
Siddoway: Not every one of these would have -- these would be varying sizes.
Nary: Sure I mean on some of those, I mean that would get the draw is having a
store but then you’re not going to get another grocery store anywhere near that.
Trying to develop those neighborhood centers would be harder because there
isn’t another way to (inaudible).
Siddoway: I think you would certainly get on every other mile and –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 27
Nary: You can get Albertson’s to develop because every other store in this
market builds the stores too big for what you’re talking about. Fred Meyer,
WinCo, Wal-Mart all build their stores too big and none of the other ones want to
compete because Albertson’s has such a saturated market. Whereas if you
(inaudible) there’s lots of other competition. That’s what I maybe a little
problematic.
Siddoway: I don’t know Albertson’s built the one on Ten Mile and it’s just 2 miles
from the one here.
Nary: Now they’re proposing to build a Sav-On at Linder.
Siddoway: Right.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: It’s every mile that Albertson’s has one.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: (Inaudible) they do draw radius and they draw radius of pretty good size, 2
to 3 miles out, is how big they feel that they’re going to draw from. You know I
think Albertson’s, although they’re only a mile apart between those two stores is
really looking towards the north and the west and the south where there isn’t
anybody out near them. It wasn’t that they felt like they were cutting into that
much. I mean that’s the only thing I see is that the (inaudible) may be a little
harder to develop because there may not be that many types of anchors that
want to go in that area other than an Albertson’s.
Siddoway: I don’t know that we have the answers for that without knowing the
market. Certainly we haven’t done market feasibility studies.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: We feel like the neighborhood centers are a great idea. I don’t know
if any of you or the Commissioners that aren’t here if they listen to this tape have
questions and want to come in and look at some of the design guidelines that I
have for these. Some of the things that we are really thinking about in terms of
detail I would be happy to go over it with you. Sally and (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Sally said she was going to it so I don’t know if (inaudible).
Borup: It sounds like we’re all (inaudible).
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 28
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: No arguments, I totally agree.
Centers: I was just going to say, have you thought about any incentives?
Siddoway: We’re always looking for incentives (inaudible).
Centers: No, I mean offering incentives to the developers?
Siddoway: Well we already have.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: We had talked about how we were going to segregate the – so we can try
to create some order to the testimony. I was just looking through the table of
contents. I came up with some proposed subject matter. The Urban Use
Planning Area, I think obviously since its already got a (inaudible). We may want
to include that as a subject matter itself. It may have 500 people come and talk
about. I don’t know but at least that makes (inaudible). Looking at the plan of
transportation I would think these categories are fairly broad. Transportation
(inaudible) a subject matter that people may want to have some input on only
because even though we aren’t ACHD and we have to listen to a lot of things
that we don’t have any control over. I think people will still want to comment
about it because you’re also talking about alternative transportation and
providing –
Borup: Under that would be the pathways, bikeways –
Nary: Yes those kinds of things. There’s a pretty good section on schools,
recreation, public service, utilities, those kinds of things. It may be a good some
ways group some ones that may not have a whole lot of people but if you put
three or four of them together. Public safety, I don’t know but I would think that
there would be some people who would want to talk about that. (Inaudible)
public safety, something in that regards, fire stations, police substation, growth
and personnel and those kinds of things. Then I just wrote growth and obviously
that’s a little bit broad but the last Chapter 8 talks about future growth and
planned development in general those types of things. I don’t know how we
would break that into one or two subjects. I think you’re going to want at least a
catchall subject for someone who cant figure out which list they want to sign up
or they’re not sure and they had more of a general comment. So, you would
have a general catchall type of sign up. Something in the growth future,
development, something along that line. It does overlap some of the other ones
of course but something like that at least looking at it, those kind of made sense
to me. Some subjects are (inaudible) those are too broad.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 29
Centers: That sounds good to me.
Borup: How about entryway corridors? Would that be under transportation?
Nary: I would think so.
Borup: It’s not really –
Nary: You’re talking about like gateway streets and those –
Borup: Yes, but that’s more of a landscaping setback type of thing.
Siddoway: Part of the transportation so that would have to be with it. Otherwise
it’s just a road. If it’s an entrance, why is it an entrance? Location, whatever,
then it’s required to have some of these other things, landscaping, and other
amenities to it.
Borup: That was the only one that I saw.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Maybe with recreation. I think most people would understand the term
green space and a lot of these are talking about (inaudible).
Borup: Well, we already got the last one.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: -- Ordinance in place. I mean, if you want, either one I think it’s just that
you want to make it fairly broad so that people can give us their input. If we
make it too broad then we’ll have everybody signing up for that one.
Borup: I’ve got Urban Service Planning, transportation, schools, rec and public
service, public safety, neighborhood centers and Land Use. I put land use I don’t
know who said that.
Nary: I said growth but it’s the same thing.
Borup: One, two , three, four, five, six –
Nary: Then you’ll link what we’ve talked about. You’ll see, if you create these
different sign up lists when you’re ready to start the meeting –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 30
Nary: Especially when you’re going into the introduction then the explanation.
You’d be looking at those lists saying okay it looks like we can do this. If we
have a lengthy turn out then you’d have the ability to say look we have 150
people singed up for the Urban Service Planning Area. Then you can decide if
you want (inaudible) hear them all tonight but maybe we have 50 on the other
one. You can tell them, you know you can make a decision and say well, we’re
not going to hear the Urban Service Planning Area tonight.
Borup: That’s why we’re going to ask.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: -- probably going to be too much to get into if we want to try to get
everything else and then do that one.
Centers: Do you think most people will check all of them or check four or five of
them?
Nary: They might but I am saying that if you took it by subject, you could say
look we have a big sign up for Urban Service Planning. We’re planning on
having another meeting anyway. We’re not going to get to that.
Centers: Right I know what you’re saying.
Nary: If you’re signed up on, we’re not going to hear that one tonight. That way
if they want to go home they can go home. If they signed up for other things as
well, they’ll stay anyway. Then they’ll know we’re not going to focus on that
tonight.
Borup: To do that we need a little bit of time. We’ve got to be able to collect the
sheets.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: That’s the other option that would (inaudible). I mean you –
Nary: You know if you want to wait, (inaudible). What we’ve done a lot, what we
do at all of our public meetings is we always say after (inaudible). Then you’ve
got to wait until we’re all done.
Borup: Right.
Siddoway: I don’t think you can really shut people out.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 31
Nary: -- I wasn’t planning on talking. I listened to those. You had 20 people and
now I really have a comment. That’s okay but they just to wait until the end of
that –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Then at the end of each subject matter, say okay that’s everybody that’s
on the list for transportation, is there anybody else that wants to make a
comment on that subject. Okay now we’re done with that one and we’re going to
go to the next one. If they want to sit through the whole thing and wait for 25
people to talk to get their 3 minutes in that’s fine. Don’t let them talk –
Borup: I was talking to Steve. We’re not sure what the facility is over there.
We’ve got the little timer is that adequate?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Is there a PA system?
Nary: One of the things that –
Borup: I think its good for the people to hear it.
Nary: One of the things that may be helpful too is to also tell people, you get to
talk once so that way when you sit down and some guy says well that last guy
didn’t agree with me now I’m going to come back up again. We need to tell them
right at the get go, everybody gets their 3 minutes or 5 minutes or whatever you
want but you get one on that subject so you’ll know that up front. So, that they
don’t keep walking back saying hey, I’ve got another comment now.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: You mean, one spokesman for 20 people?
Borup: Yes.
Centers: Well, on the sign up they can indicate that.
Borup: Oh, how about a separate sheet for spokesmen and list al the people
they’re speaking for?
Nary: But it doesn’t matter because you know what if they all want to talk -- what
you’ll see, here’s two things I can tell you. What’ll happen is you will see the
longer it goes on, there are a lot of people who will say fine. There’s also, if you
take a break, I guarantee it if you take a break every hour to hour and a half,
people will leave every time. I guarantee it. If they miss their turn they can wait
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 32
until the end but if you take a break lets say if you start at 7:00 and you take a
break at 8:30 regardless of how many people you’ve heard, people will go home.
People will just say okay obviously (inaudible).
Centers: So, we take a breaks every hour?
Nary: Or hour and a half. It really does -- it does tend to (inaudible). If you take
a break for 10 minutes, some people will just go –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: No I’m just saying it’s a natural thing. It happens every time. People –
Borup: Your time is up.
Centers: Well, that’s their microphone it’ll be loud enough. If not –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: See, we have that sitting up here and people ignore it even though you
know they hear it.
Centers: I’ve never heard it.
Borup: We haven’t used it lately. We had some periods there where we used it
a lot.
Nary: We’re not trying to tell them that they can’t talk. We just want to make
sure they understand one time. Give us your comment but we want to keep it
brief. I don’t think we need to worry in my opinion about the spokesmen because
you know what if they want to sign up on the list and they all 20 want to talk
that’s fine. The whole intent is to let everybody talk. On the other hand you can
tell them if you’re speaking on behalf of a bunch of people just let us know that.
That’s fine. Sometimes, what people like to do and I think its more impact what
they’re trying to get across. They’re getting up there and saying you know I’m
talking for 75 people standing in the back. If you say who are those people?
Okay great they feel like you’re getting their two cents.
Borup: So, do we have that in writing then somewhere?
Nary: No. (Inaudible).
Borup: I mean about the spokesman thing.
Nary: I don’t know that’s the Chair’s call. You don’t need an Ordinance that says
that.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 33
Borup: I didn’t mean an Ordinance. I mean just –
Nary: I think those protocols are thing that -- 3 minutes –
Borup: We had one time, I was supposing to (inaudible). He got up there and
spoke for 20 minutes and it was two people that he was a spokesman for.
Nary: But, I don’t know that this is a subject matter. In Boise, we have it by
Ordinance. If you’re a neighborhood association, you get 20 minutes if you’re a
representative of the effected applicants or effected party you can get the same
amount of time as the applicant. Here I don’t think we want to do that.
Borup: So, here it’s 3 minutes unless someone says I’m a spokesman then bring
it up?
Centers: You can ask who you’re speaking for. Can you raise your hand?
Nary: Then someone say you know what, you can have my time. Sir, what’s
your name? Great I’m going to cross your name off. Thank you.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Yes, she says you know you can have my 3 minutes. Great, I’ll just cross
you off. Then when you get to the end of your list, you say anybody else? The
guy says I want to talk now. Great, that’s fine then at least when they’re the
spokesperson you’re going to cross other people off. You’re going to have a
better way of controlling (inaudible).
Borup: Okay, 3 minutes.
Centers: I think I like that. In fact we might even have a chance for us to get
together and look over the rest of the (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: How many of which subjects we’re going to cover that night.
Centers: I was trying (inaudible). My anticipation is (inaudible).
Borup: That’s why we wondered what facilities are there. A short stage or a tall
stage?
Siddoway: It’s not real tall but it will do.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 34
Centers: I went there for a juvenile something and they had these (inaudible)
judges or whatever they call them. I mean it was really nice. People just stood
up and talked and they could hear them fine but they did have microphones.
Borup: They stood up without a microphone and talked?
Centers: The people in the crowd stood up and asked questions but, the judge
and all, they had microphones.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Freckleton: They’ve got two aisle that run down each side. If you set a
microphone on each one, they could just walk up to either side. That would
work.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Then they wouldn’t have to waste a lot of time all walking up to the center.
We could have it that way.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: One of the things that (inaudible) especially if there’s a lot of people there
and stuff, say the next five people or the next three people are (inaudible). So
they move up (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: When they hear their name they move themselves kind of up close to the
mike so when it’s their turn --
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Like I said, depending on the number you might say three to five people.
That way they’d all get kind of close to where they need to be. Nothing is more
agonizing then to watch somebody walking form that end of the room all the way
around.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: It’s up to you. I’ve been to two out of four (inaudible). You could just
read it if you want and just call me if you have questions.
Centers: Well, I would like to get in sometime in the next week (inaudible).
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 35
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Does anybody want me to go through the rest of this item-by-item?
Borup: You said you’re still going to talk tot hat consultant?
Siddoway: We’re doing it in the morning at 10:30.
Borup: Okay I would be surprised if she could (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I guess even if she does recommend, I mean she’d have to have some
strong reasons to me to make it (inaudible).
Siddoway: Unless you’re available.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I probably would if I know I’ve got the Commissioners behind me.
Nary: I think it makes more sense because that’s the way (inaudible).
Borup: Maybe she’s got a good reason that would make sense.
Siddoway: I think the subjects make more sense than the geographic.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: -- in order of the chapters too as we go through here because some of
those people bring these.
Borup: Oh, re-arrange these (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: This is all pretty much in the summary isn’t it?
Nary: It kind of varies. When I looked at it, you’re right most of them (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I just think if we break them up that way it will be a ton easier to keep track
of it all.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 36
Borup: So, do we even mention, would that be one thing to sign up for Chapters
1 through 5?
Nary: No because not everybody (inaudible)
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Well, we put others. I think if we want to have any general comments or
other comments or additional comments or something like that. We may just
have somebody say you know what I didn’t see on your subject thing but I really
am more concerned about natural resources, hazardous areas –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: How can anybody object to that?
Siddoway: If somebody reads through it they’ll find a typo or something.
Nary: There may be things. They’ll think oh, you didn’t emphasize historic
resources (inaudible).
Borup: How do we address that then?
Nary: I think you want to have an other. That way people can, if they think none
of those really if the -- whatever they think their subject is, even though we might
think its transportation and the one you brought up was a good one. The
landscaping, we may think its transportation. They may think its really green
space and open space. Maybe that’s -- they’re thinking we don’t have enough
about that so I’m going to sign up on that part.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Transportation is cars.
Nary: If they go to all the ACHD meetings (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I think the pathways are recreation and parks.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Siddoway: Well, read through this. If you have any questions at all or input, give
me a call.
Borup: How about the grid system? Are we still exercising that?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Workshop
June 21, 2001
Page 37
Siddoway: It doesn’t necessarily have to be a (inaudible). The main issue is the
block length.
Borup: That’s the way everything used to be.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I mean, (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: I move we adjourn.
Borup: Yes, we’re adjourned. The meeting adjourned at 9:50.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:50 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
KEITH BORUP, CHAIRMAN
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK