2001 06-07Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting June 7, 2001
The City of Meridian Planning and Zoning regularly scheduled meeting was
called to order at 7:00 P.M., on Thursday, June 7, 2001 by Chairman Keith
Borup.
Members Present: Keith Borup, Jerry, Centers, Bill Nary and Keven Shreeve.
Members Absent: Sally Norton.
Others Present: Brad Hawkins-Clark, Brad Watson, David Swartley and Will
Berg.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
__O __Sally Norton __X___ Jerry Centers
__X___Bill Nary __X___ Keven Shreeve
__X___Chairman Keith Borup
Borup: -- and start our meeting. I apologize for being a little late. Our workshop
-- we kind of lost track of time. I’d like to open the regular Meridian Planning and
Zoning Commission meeting and take a roll of those in attendance. Sally Norton
is absent.
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Item 3. Consent Agenda:
A. Approve minutes of April 19, 2001 Planning and Zoning
Commission meeting:
Borup: The first item is our minutes from April 19th
meeting. Are we catching up
on minutes, any at all? Trying to, any comments –
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: I did notice on that I didn’t note when we changed items. I was present for
item, which is one item, Items 10, 11, and 12. At that meeting, if you read the
minutes I sort of just appear out of thin air because it noted that I was absent, so
we can at least make sure they note that I was present for that. This was only
the second hearing that night.
Borup: Did I not announce you when you came in?
Nary: I didn’t see that. I didn’t notice that.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 2
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: He came in half way through Tuscany.
Nary: I sat out of the Tuscany hearing but I did participate in the – about 10:00
yes. That’s about when we took over.
Borup: Item No. 10.
Nary: I just want to make note of that.
Borup: Okay, Thank you. I didn’t notice when you came in. We should have
called you up because I think we had just barely started.
Nary: I didn’t realize you had just started.
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Centers.
Centers: With that modification I would move that we approve the minutes of the
April 19th
meeting.
Shreeve: Second.
Borup: Motion is second to approve the minutes. All in favor.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Item 4. Continued Public Hearing from May 17, 2001: AZ 01-008
Request for Annexation and zoning of 12.71 acres from R1 and
RUT to C-G and R-40 zones for proposed Baltic Place
Subdivision by L.C. Development, Inc. – Franklin Road west of
Locust Grove Road:
Item 5. Continued Public Hearing from May 17, 2001: PP 01-009
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 10 building lots and 3
other lots on 12.71 acres in proposed C-G and R-40 zones for
proposed Baltic Place Subdivision by L.C. Development, Inc. –
Franklin Road west of Locust Grove Road:
Item 6. Continued Public Hearing from May 17, 2001: CUP 01-015
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a Planned Unit
Development for mixed use Residential/Commercial in proposed C-
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 3
G and R-40 zones for proposed Baltic Place Subdivision by L.C.
Development, Inc. – Franklin Road west of Locust Grove Road:
Borup: Okay. This is quite a sight. I’ve got to tell you folks we haven’t seen a
room like this in four or five years really. I don’t think since I’ve been on here.
Next item and the first of the Public Hearing are Items 4, 5 and 6 are Continued
Public Hearings from our May 17th
meeting. We do not have a written statement
but I understand we have an oral communication from the applicant. Brad,
would you have any? Mr. Brad Hawkins-Clark do you have any comments?
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you. Yes, Chairman Borup, we did have a
communication from Shawn Nickel who is with the firm that the applicant Lee
Centers is with. They have made some modifications to their site plan. They
were prepared to submit that to you tonight. We as staff said that we would not
be recommending the Commission act on it if they could not submit prior to that.
So they are intending to submit a revised plan for that mixed-use project there on
Franklin Road in the next couple of days. You should have that in your packets.
They’ve asked that the Commission continue it to your 21st
meeting of this
month.
Borup: Did they indicate how much of a change they were looking at?
Hawkins-Clark: In terms of the conceptual layout really not significant. There
was, as a result of their meeting with the Ada County Highway District, there was
a slight change I believe to the right-of-way. They are now proposing strictly a
private drive entering off of Franklin. On the plan that you have, that was a
public right that extended a few hundred feet into the site. They have proposed
to take away the public right-of-way and replace it with a private drive.
Borup: Mr. Berg, what (inaudible) we got scheduled for the 21st
? Have we got
anything? That was a real – very few on that meeting too I think because that’s
supposed to be our carry over meeting.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: From before because we didn’t have time on this agenda.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: It was a question. Do we have room on the agenda for --
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: It’ll be the first hearing. Even though it’s continued, we’ve not had any
testimony or presentation or anything on it. So, it’ll be a full hearing.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 4
Hawkins-Clark: I don’t believe it’s even been opened has it?
Borup: No.
Hawkins-Clark: So, it’s just been –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Yes, we opened it and then continued it.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I didn’t continue on that as far as the changes. It doesn’t sound like
they’re to the extent that it’s got to go out with new submittals, transmittals to
everybody and have them reviewed or anything. If it’s just a right-of-way change
and just some distances changed a little bit. Things maybe just either got
smaller or slid down a few feet.
Hawkins-Clark: Correct. I don’t think that it would be considered significant
enough to warrant new agency submittals. It’s similar square-footages, similar
number of dwelling units, and same number of lots in general.
Borup: So, then really the only question is if there’s room on the agenda at this
point. It looks like –
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes, Commissioner Nary.
Nary: This was continued previously. This hearing tonight is the second it was
set?
Borup: Yes.
Nary: So, this is now the third time it’s being set.
Borup: I think the first one was, they didn’t quite make it -- they had submitted it
and there wasn’t quite time to get on the other agenda. Then it got moved and
then they were out of town last time.
Nary: I just hate to keep continuing it for lot things. This sounds like something
– I don’t know whether this was a last minute thing or something like that. I’d
rather put it on July 19th
and at least -- whatever problems they’ve got. They
should have it resolved. If there’s questions that staff has, they don’ t have to
hurry up and review it. I know there’s some staff time that sometimes may take -
-I know July 5th
we’ve already got quite a few set for that. I know they wanted
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 5
July 21st
, but they had tonight and they didn’t get it done by tonight. I think
they’re subject to whatever they can get.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: At least I would feel like if we set it to July 19th
then maybe we’ll hear it.
Rather than set it on June 21st
and you know it puts the planning staff or the
Public Works staff in a bind hurrying to get this accomplished as well when
they’re not the ones causing this timetable change. I guess that would be my
preference, rather than just trying to push (inaudible).
Borup: Has the staff already done their review of the project with what you’ve got
now?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes you have not received the staff report –
Borup: But, it’s completed?
Hawkins-Clark: -- but it is complete. We were waiting for this revised plan to
possibly tweak some conditions in relationship to that right-of-way change.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: (Inaudible) a lot of time that you would need then?
Hawkins-Clark: No.
Borup: Commissioner Nary, my only concern is, unless we’ve got a trend going
here. If we push too much too far out, we’re going to get jammed up down the
road.
Nary: Well, that’s true. Like I said, if we come in two weeks and something else
is a miss then we’ve got to start off another month anyway.
Borup: It doesn’t sound like – I mean the staff report was essentially done at last
months meeting.
Nary: Yes I guess if we just check to see how heavy it looks.
Borup: Then the next item is in the same situation.
Nary: Right that one’s been set over a couple of times as well for I think similar
types of issues.
Borup: It seemed like from the testimony –
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 6
Nary: We can’t put them both on the 21st
anyway.
Borup: Will is double-checking –
Nary: Oh, okay.
Borup: If I remember right the one on Baltic Place they were -- even though they
made some changes. They were a month ago on the first date that we thought it
was going to be scheduled for. Is that correct?
Hawkins-Clark: That’s correct. Hubble Engineering, there was a scheduling
conflict I believe. They were not able to be here because of a vacation schedule.
They were ready the two weeks prior to that. The Cherry Crossing 7, 8 and 9,
they have specifically requested a July 19th
date.
Borup: All right. I didn’t -- let’s see what we’ve got here. We’ve got two items on
the 21st
. One is a continued on Autumn Faire and the other one is a Meridian
Chamber. That’s the shortest agenda we’ve ever had so far.
Nary: We’ll see how the rest of the night goes. Then I guess, Mr. Chairman –
Borup: That’s true the night’s not over.
Nary: I guess Mr. Chairman, I would go ahead and make a motion then to reset
Items 4, 5 and 6 the Public Hearing for the Baltic Place Subdivision, both the
annexation, the Preliminary Plat and the CUP request, that we move those three
items of that project to our June 21st
meeting.
Centers: I would second that.
Borup: Okay motion is second -- just a matter of information, the July 5th
, we’ve
got 15 items. SO, if we have any continuation from that they would go to the
second July meeting (inaudible). Any other discussion, comment? All in favor.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Yes, that was to continue the Public Hearing on Items 4, 5 and 6 to the
June 21st
meeting.
Item 7. Continued Public Hearing from May 17, 2001: PP 01-010
Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 18 building lots and 2
other lots on 11.57 acres in R-4 and C-N zones for proposed
Cherry Crossing by Albertson’s, Inc. –northwest corner of Linder
Road and West Cherry Lane:
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 7
Item 8. Continued Public Hearing from May 17, 2001: CUP 01-016
Request for a Conditional Use Permit for single-family dwellings
and drug store with drive-thru, fuel pumps, office/retail and fast food
in R-4 and proposed C-N zones for proposed Cherry Crossing by
Albertson’s, Inc. – northwest corner of Linder Road and West
Cherry Lane:
Borup: Next items are also Continued Public Hearings. Request for Preliminary
Plat on Cherry Crossing and Conditional Use Permit on Cherry Crossing, Items
No. 7 and 8. They have requested to be continued until July 19th
(inaudible) a
letter that just came today.
Nary: And, we’re okay on the 19th
?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: That’s quite a ways out.
Borup: The 19th
should be small at this point.
Centers: Mr. Chairman I would make the motion that Items 7 and 8 Continued
Public Hearing PP 01-010 and Continued Public Hearing on CUP 01-016 be
placed on our July 19th
agenda.
Shreeve: Second.
Borup: You meant continued to that?
Centers: Right.
Borup: Motion’s second. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Item 9. Public Hearing: AZ 01-009 Request for Annexation and Zoning
of 8.15 acres from RUT to R-4 zones for proposed Staten Park
Subdivision by D’Alessio Building Development – southeast
corner of North Black Cat Road and West Ustick Road:
Item 10. Public Hearing: PP 01-012 Request for Preliminary Plat approval
of 23 building lots and 5 other lots on 8.15 acres in a proposed R-4
zone for proposed Staten Park Subdivision by D’Alessio Building
Development – southeast corner of North Black Cat Road and
West Ustick Road:
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 8
Borup: Okay, Item No. 9 is a Public Hearing request for annexation and zoning
of 8.15 acres from RUT to R-4 zone for proposed Staten Park Subdivision,
southeast corner of Black Cat and West Ustick. The accompanying Item 10,
Public Hearing request for Preliminary Plat. Approval of 23 building lots and 5
other lots on the same project. I’d like to open both these Public Hearings and
start with the staff report, Mr. Hawkins-Clark.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you Chairman Borup. A first note, you have received I
believe, in one of your packets a staff report dated May 7th
. Just so you know, it
should be replaced with a June 4th
report. They are essentially the same staff
report but just for the record, it is the correct date for the staff report on Staten
Park, the June 4th
. I won’t go into significant detail on this since you have seen
both of these applications priors. On the screen is just an aerial to give you a
sense for the overall topography out here. There’s a red outline around the
subject parcel here on the south side of Ustick Road. The golf course and
Ashford Greens to the south. Wilkin’s Ranch, Dakota Ridge here to the east and
Black Cat Road here. The crosshatched pieces on the screen there that’s the
application and then some site photos. As you can tell, not taken yesterday. In
terms of the annexation request, our staff report dated June 4th
does give a little
bit of a summary. The City Council did deny the same application earlier this
year or last fall. The bottom of the first page of the report kind of hits a couple of
the highlights why. They felt there was an abundant inventory of R-4 zoned
subdivision with 8,000 square-foot lots. They mentioned the 1,400 square-foot
house sizes were not comparable with those in the area. Also, the minimum 5
percent open space shown on the previous plan was not considered by a couple
of the Council People as usable or logical. The request for the zone is the same
as the earlier request last fall. It is for the R-4 from the current RUT. One of the
changes to the staff report on this new one is, on Page 2 Item No. 4 due to the
fact that the applicant is asking for minimum house square-footages that are
greater than those required we feel a Development Agreement should be
required whereas previously it was recommended not to have a Development
Agreement. I think on the annexation and zoning comments, that’s pretty much
the highlights. Moving on to the plat comments, on the screen is the original plat
that was – by original, the one that was denied by Council and I don’t know if you
can see too well on there. I mainly wanted to give this to your attention to point
out that they did remove one lot here on the east boundary of the subdivision.
Here’s the proposed layout that you have before you now. On the Preliminary
Plat requirements in the staff report, I don’t think there’s really anything of
significance to point out. Most of them are standard comments. They do need
to submit a variance for the requested reduction to the minimum block length.
Minimum block length in our code is 500 feet and they are below that. Item No.
13 on Page 4 does say that they will need to have a variance approved prior to
City Council action on the Preliminary Plat. I think I’ll just leave it at that and
stand for questions.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 9
Borup: Any questions or comments from any of the Commissioners? The only
thing I found interesting were a couple of comments on City Council’s reasoning
tonight. I don’t know if I understood much behind their reasoning. That’s Dakota
Ridge, directly to the east?
Hawkins-Clark: No I think that’s Wilkin’s Ranch.
Borup: Okay that’s R-4 with 14,000 minimum, or 1400-foot minimum? I mean
it’s exactly the same as that subdivision, isn’t it?
Hawkins-Clark: Well, there’s a Wilkin’s Ranch Subdivision and then there’s a
Wilkin’s Ranch Village. There are actually two and, Brad do you remember
which one is adjacent? One of them does have a variation of lot sizes. I believe
it’s Wilkin’s Ranch Village. They do have –
Borup: It looked like from the comments that they’re saying that this is
incompatible almost with adjoining subdivisions which I couldn’t see. The
comment on the abundant lot inventory. Do they have a list of all the inventory?
Centers: I was wondering the same thing. Did they have a survey?
Hawkins-Clark: That’s not the comments I’ve heard. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes, Commissioner Centers.
Centers: I have a question for Brad. I guess a stupid question is no question.
Why are you getting the Development Agreement when they’re agreeing to
exceed the minimum? Is it that you want it in writing? Their minimum is more
than what is required.
Hawkins-Clark: Correct. I think it is somewhat of a call for the Commission and
the Council -- you know if they were to go below, I would require a Planned
Development. So, they couldn’t do it. I think anytime there is a feature of a
subdivision that is different than the ordinance, there’s really no way for us to
have that run with the land.
Borup: The covenants could be changed.
Hawkins-Clark: What could be changed?
Borup: The covenants.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 10
Hawkins-Clark: Which is not something the City can enforce.
Centers: So, that’s the only way to enforce it. Isn’t that what you’re saying, is to
have a Development Agreement?
Hawkins-Clark: Right if it was a Planned Development application it would
probably not be necessary because the Planned Development would run with
the land. You could just say that this is a condition of the Planned Development
but, it’s a plat which, house size really is not a subdivision type condition. It’s
more related to the zoning ordinance. I think that’s –
Borup: That is why the applicant applied for (inaudible). Anybody else have any
other comments? Would the applicant like to come forward?
D. D’Alessio: Hi my name is Dan D’Alessio. I reside at 6314 North Park
Meadow Way in West Boise. I am the applicant for the proposed Staten Park
Subdivision. It’s basically the same plat that you’ve seen previously except, like
you said we eliminated one lot, raised the minimum square-footage of the lot
sizes and raised the minimum square-footages of the homes which is what I
think the City Council wants. I basically am here to try to get it before them one
more time.
Shreeve: Could you repeat your first name?
D. D’Alessio: Dan.
Borup: First of all, have you had a chance to read the staff comments?
D. D’Alessio: Not the one dated yesterday. I haven’t received that.
Borup: You read the one from the previous?
D. D’Alessio: Yes.
Borup: I will need a clarification on what was different. In eliminating the lot, did
the street also move forward a little bit or did the street stay in the same spot?
D. D’Alessio: The street is the same it was like that originally.
Borup: Okay so, the lots just got bigger?
D. D’Alessio: Yes (inaudible) offset.
Borup: But, then the lots along Ustick got wider also?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 11
D. D’Alessio: The lots along Ustick got wider and the lots along the east
boundary of the property. By the way, along the east boundary of the property
that is Wilkin’s Ranch.
Borup: Okay.
D. D’Alessio: Wilkin’s Ranch Village is a little further east and a little further
south. There are some – a lot higher density in Wilkin’s Village than there is in
Wilkin’s Ranch. There isn’t a lot on there that’s 8,000 square feet. I think the
smallest lot there is 8,500. They go up to 14,000.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: Is it D’Alessio?
D. D’Alessio: Yes it is, perfect.
Nary: Okay Mr. D’Alessio, it appears that one of the other things that City
Council had a problem with before was this walking path that had no connectivity.
It says now, it’s going to connect back to (inaudible) street?
D’Alessio: It always did.
Nary: Okay so, there isn’t any change to what they didn’t like?
D’Alessio: No, there is. We eliminated one lot. Their biggest concern was an
over abundance –
Nary: I understand about the one lot change. I’m saying with the green space,
there isn’t any change to that part of what the City Council also commented that
they didn’t like?
D. D’Alessio: I think their biggest comment about that walking path their negative
comment was the fence. They wanted a solid fence and that will give them a 4-
foot solid fence.
Nary: But correct me if I’m wrong. Does it connect to the other subdivision on
the east side?
D. D’Alessio: If you look at the southeast border of the property that corner there
is a path that goes all the way back up to West Campfire. That was on the
original plat.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 12
Nary: Okay I guess maybe I’m not asking this very clearly. That walking path is
not connected east and west to any other subdivision. It is a totally island like
path, correct?
D. D’Alessio: It leads out to West Campfire. So, West Campfire –
Nary: I understand. That’s north.
D. D’Alessio: Right.
Nary: But, it doesn’t connect on the east side or the west side to anything. It is
just a green space in the middle of next to a canal.
D. D’Alessio: Definitely on the west side it doesn’t connect to anything.
Nary: Right so, right now -- so, the green space, to meet the 5 percent
requirement, what you’ve done is you’ve created a green space that doesn’t
connect to anything. It just wraps around that corner and goes north up to
Campfire Street. Is that green grass walking path up to the campfire street as
well or is that just a gravel path?
D. D’Alessio: It’s an asphalt path.
Nary: Okay so you have a green space path along the canal for, how long is
that? About half a mile?
D. D’Alessio: I’m not sure.
Nary: About a quarter-mile. There’s no other green space in this subdivision at
all just because it’s next to the golf course, right?
D. D’Alessio: Well, you’ve got the, up in the –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Okay.
Borup: Is Campfire an existing stub from the other subdivision?
D. D’Alessio: From Wilkin’s Ranch.
Borup: Okay that’s why it has to stay at that location.
D. D’Alessio: I have a copy of Wilkin’s Ranch plat here and I could show you
guys where –
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 13
Borup: But, it doesn’t have yours on it though?
D. D’Alessio: No it doesn’t do you want to see it?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: But, the question we were talking about here was Campfire Street, that it
was offset from the other. That was one of the discussions last time. Staff
preferred that it would be lined up straight but the problem was that –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: -- right, there wasn’t any choice to have these lot depths.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Shreeve: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes, Commissioner Shreeve.
Centers: Can I ask a question of Brad? Brad, I believe the Eight Mile lateral was
to have a pathway along that. Is that correct to your recollection? Just because
I concur with Commissioner Nary in terms of, or at least what I believe what he
was implying that you know it doesn’t really serve much of a purpose. Yet in the
future it actually may serve a very good purpose.
Hawkins-Clark: Commissioner Centers I do not believe the Eight Mile is
designated in their pathway plan. They’ve selected natural drainages primarily
which would be, in this general location, would be the Five Mile which is a little
further east.
Centers: Okay.
Borup: He’s talking about in the parks pathway plan.
Hawkins-Clark: Right. We have taken the parks pathway plan which has not
been adopted by Council yet but is proposed and used that on our draft
Comprehensive Plan and it’s not shown. I think there’s a small piece of the Eight
Mile south of Victory that it does go along but nothing on the north end of the
City.
Centers: So, the other subdivision has been developing the Eight Mile lateral on
the south side, or southwest side. However you want to call that. Is that what I
read by your statement? In the summary? That was one of the City Council’s
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 14
reasons for denial is because the pathway is on the opposite side? Your last
sentence on Page 1.
Hawkins-Clark: Right I believe that’s true. I’m sorry Dan may be able to speak
to that better than I. I wasn’t at the City Council meeting. I believe that, I don’t
think that’s the City Council’s concern is there was no head bridge across the
Eight Mile to connect with the pathway.
Borup: So, is that what they were saying?
D. D’Alessio: I really don’t recall anyone mentioning a bridge going across.
Borup: No, but they were saying that the other subdivision is developing on the
opposite side, is that how the other --
D. D’Alessio: Cherry Lane The Lakes at Cherry Lane?
Borup: No, the other side of the canal. The other side of the Eight Mile.
D. D’Alessio: That’s Cherry Lane. What was the question? Do they have a
walking path on their side?
Borup: Yes.
D. D’Alessio: I don’t know I believe they do.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: On which side of the Eight Mile?
D. D’Alessio: On the south side.
Borup: Okay Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Chairman I guess I recall we just had a meeting with the City Council
about two weeks ago. This is one of the ones that they commented on that this
was a walking path that went nowhere. That was at least significant enough for
them to mention it again as the reason they didn’t like it. I think the perception
was, and I understand what they’re saying and maybe I agree with it. Who’s
going to use it if it only goes a quarter of a mile and it doesn’t go anywhere else?
If I’m on the north side of that lateral and I can see there’s walking path over
there on the other side and I can’t get to it, why would I use this? What would I
do with it?
D. D’Alessio: Because it can, if you look at it a little different light, if I can maybe
show you this. There’s a possibility that it can. (Inaudible)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 15
Borup: Do you have an overall of the adjoining subdivisions? You don’t have
anything that shows the adjoining subdivisions do you?
D. D’Alessio: -- come back up to West Campfire and it leads it into here. There
are also walking paths through here that can lead to the school.
Nary: So, what you’re saying is that, that when it turns north along the walking
path up on the dirt path to Campfire it connects to some other walking path and
this is somewhere along Campfire or is this just a sidewalk that goes on North
High Dessert Way? Then it connects to the school that is where?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Let’s be realistic. At this point it doesn’t connect to anything. It connects
to itself and that’s it. It doesn’t connect across the lateral. It doesn’t connect to
some other walking path that’s immediately adjacent. No one in their right mind
is going to walk down there, walk north, walk all the way through some
subdivision and use that. I mean, walking paths –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Walking paths. People at least in this subdivision are only going to be
able to walk one quarter of a mile from one end to the other next to the –
Unidentified: Let me correct you. It’s not a quarter of a mile it’s 428 feet. A
quarter of a mile is more like 1,200 feet or 11.
Borup: Are you leading to why even do it?
Nary: Right I mean it sounds like –
Borup: There’s a lot of expense there that’s serving any purpose.
Nary: The purpose of the green space, usable green space is to have space the
people can do something with it not just to have it. Otherwise you could put a
little strip of grass on the edge of each block. It’s not a usable space. I think
that’s the problem. I guess, to me it’s the 5 percent that you are trying to meet
the 5 percent requirement with is the spaces aren’t usable. Isn’t going to be
used by anybody really.
D. D’Alessio: I don’t think we need to have a long path.
Nary: I don’t think you do either. I think you need to have something better than
that.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 16
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Right you need to talk on the record but, yes, I guess my opinion is that
it’s not usable space for anything.
Borup: Well, the other thing is, we’ve got vacant property to the west. If that’s
continued on then you’ve got access from Black Cat down there and on into the
other subdivision.
Nary: Maybe I mean if that’s what they decide to do with it. I mean, today all we
have is this.
Borup: On doing pathways, you’re always going to stretches that don’t go
anywhere. Unless the development starts at one end of the mile and goes --
Nary: I would agree but looking at the plat of the immediately adjacent to the
east subdivision, there’s no way a path is going to go that way.
Center: Can I object a little?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Did they include that in the open space, the pathway? It doesn’t
appear to be. I mean is that square-footage in the open space? That’s where
Commissioner Nary is coming from here I think.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Is it?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: How much of it do we have a breakdown?
Borup: Yes it’s about 10,000 square feet.
Nary: I mean, I would agree with you Chairman Borup that sometimes you will
have that but it would appear to me at least based on the parks plan of
pathways, they’re not intending to make it a pathway. So, they’re not going to
come, when somebody wants to develop a piece to the west, come to this
Commission. They’re not coming to the Commission for this one saying please
makes this a pathway. They’re not going to say it for the next one because
there’s no (inaudible) a path on the other side of the lateral. They have no
interest in it. I guess my opinion is that this thing is going to be a patch of weeds
in no time because no one is going to want to maintain it because no one walks
on it. I mean, it’s a nice idea but without the connectivity of the other ones, it’s
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 17
wasted. I’d rather they spend the 5 percent somewhere in the subdivision so
that people would actually gain some benefit out of it. That would be better than
just a strip of grass that no one is going to use. I would rather have the green
space they have created bigger.
Borup: Have you looked into that at all? I know this is kind of late in the stage
for you. Maybe redesigning, but have you looked at trying to do something
different along that line?
D. D’Alessio: I don’t know if that’s feasible. It can certainly be looked at.
Borup: Is that pathway on a separate -- it’s not on a separate lot is it?
Hawkins-Clark: No it’s an easement.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
D. D’Alessio: I think the pathways are on a separate lot.
Hawkins-Clark: Oh, I’m sorry yes.
Nary: I’m looking at the wrong site plan then. Which one have I got here?
Hawkins-Clark: Look at the bottom left. There’s a note outside of the subdivision
just south of the Eight Mile lateral that calls (inaudible)
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: There it is.
Borup: Any other questions from any of the Commissioners? They’re trying to
double check and see if there is a path (inaudible). I don’t know on that. I’m
pretty sure, further to the east there was a path on the north side. (Inaudible).
I’m thinking, I don’t know where, like over in here somewhere. There was a path
along this area right here. Does anybody else remember that? Do you
remember anything about that Brad? Like over in this area somewhere? Where
does it keep going? Does it (inaudible) and turn over here? Where does this go
after it leaves this point?
Hawkins-Clark: Wilkin’s Ranch.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Hawkins-Clark: That’s all part of Wilkin’s.
Borup: This is the Eight Mile lateral here isn’t it?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 18
Hawkins-Clark: Correct.
Borup: Where does it go after it leaves this point?
Hawkins-Clark: Straight south.
Borup: Oh, straight south. Okay then maybe that was right here I’m thinking –
and I may be wrong. It’s been a while but it seems like there was a path on the
north side of that somewhere.
Nary: Even if there was, you couldn’t get through Wilkin’s Ranch to connect to it.
Borup: Well that was part of Wilkin’s Ranch. Right now, you’re saying, as far as
you know, there’s no pathway right here?
D. D’Alessio: I don’t know that there is but it sure does look like it (inaudible).
Borup: Did you ever go out there and look?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Oh, the Wilkin’s Ranch stuff’s not finished? Okay that would take a
phone call to the Engineer.
Hawkins-Clark: Let me see that again. No what it looks like, it doesn’t look like
there’s a path to me. It just shows a 25-foot easement, Eight Mile lateral
easement. I don’t see that there’s any indication of a pathway but it does seem
to illustrate the Eight Mile easement but not necessarily a pathway.
D. D’Alessio: Even though it doesn’t connect to something it could still be
considered an amenity to the subdivision. Something where people can go by,
you know it’s by the water. It is only 8.14 acres and there’s a limited amount you
can do with it.
Borup: Do you know how much green space is in that area?
D. D’Alessio: No I don’t but it is on the plat. In fact, could I see that please?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
D. D’Alessio: The total open space is 20,478 square feet.
Borup: It looks like you needed 17 something. You’ve got about 12 in the other
2. Are there any more than the 2 up there near Ustick? You’ve got the two lots
near Ustick plus the –
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 19
Hawkins-Clark: There are just three lots, the pathway and the two entry lots.
Those are the only open space lots.
Borup: That’s what I meant, the two up on Ustick plus the pathway.
D. D’Alessio: There are a total of 20,478 and the required is 17,750.
Borup: And you’ve got 12 up there on the other two. So, you’ve got a little over
5,000 of the required – I mean you’ve got eight or more down there. (Inaudible)
required area.
D. D’Alessio: 8,651 on the walking path.
Borup: I think Commissioner Nary’s question was you know if that pathway
could be eliminated and you could get the green space some other area. It looks
like realistically probably the only way to do that is to reduce the size of your lots,
which gets you right back (inaudible).
D. D’Alessio: Even eliminating another lot, I don’t see how.
Nary: You don’t see how, what?
Borup: You’re only 5,000 feet short, 5,500 or something.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Maybe I (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: You’ve got to have 17. You’ve got 12 at the entrance lots, those drainage
lots there. So, you still need 5,000. You have it in that walking path. My opinion,
and I maybe the only one that thinks this, but I don’t think it’s usable open space.
I think it’s pretty green grass but no one’s going to walk on it. I think they would
need more viable open space –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Somewhere else.
Borup: Go ahead. You need to state your name.
P. D’Alessio: My name’s Paul D’Alessio. I live at 3604 West Potell Drive in
Meridian. I live behind probably 25,000 square feet of unusable open space in
Dakota Ridge. People find a way to walk through the path and get there when
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 20
they want to just have a picnic or relax some place. That’s what open space is
for. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a path. It doesn’t have to go to a school or
a street or any place. It’s a place where someone can get off the street. Kids
can ride tricycles there. It’s 400 feet, instead of riding them up and down a busy
street. It’s useful space. It’s something that’s not on the street something that’s
behind the houses and it’s on the waterway. Of course, from that, would be the
open space for Lakes of Cherry Lane No. 9 and there is some connectivity. We
approached Nampa Meridian Irrigation District on a footbridge and they won’t
allow it. Like he said it’s only 8 acres, 8.14 acres. There’s only so much we can
do with it. We tried to make some changes to make the lots bigger than the
minimum and we’ve made the houses bigger than the minimum. Even though
right next door, Wilkin’s Ranch, it’s straight minimum. We’re just trying to make
some useful space of this parcel.
Nary: Your last name is also D’Alessio? I understand what you’re saying I guess
I am not a builder. I don’t agree with what you’re saying in the sense that you’re
only limited and it’s only a little piece. We’ve seen other developments that are
smaller than this that are more creative on how they try to make that open space
usable so it’s really something people can use and will use. In my opinion, and
it’s just my opinion, this is not usable open space. No one is going to a ride
tricycle next to a canal. No one is going to ride a tricycle on a gravel path. So, it
isn’t very usable for anything. What happens when you don’t have usable space
is you end up with weeds because no one walks on it no one cleans it up. No
one cares because they don’t use it. The City Council, at least it appears in our
staff report thought that the last time when you brought this to them you didn’t
seem to have addressed that. You’ve addressed the lot size, which is fine, but
you didn’t address the open space question. That’s what I’m asking. If I don’t
think it’s usable open space, if we don’t count it, If it was just only me, then you
haven’t met the requirement. The requirement is that it be usable.
P. D’Alessio: Actually, (inaudible). The City Council did not at all, on the record
address open space. As far as the open space was concerned at that pathway
there their only concern was the type of fence that we were using. We originally
submitted chainlink because that’s what all the other subdivisions around there
have. They wanted something nicer. That wasn’t the reason that they gave for
denying it. The reason they gave for denying was clearly, and abundant
inventory of 8,000 square-foot lots and there was no other reason. We’ve tried
to address that issue by making the lots larger. We spoke to some of the
descending voters in the Council about what would they want. Some of their
comments were 12,000 square-foot lots. We had originally done a plat on
12,000 and it doesn’t work. You have a bunch of pie shaped lots on 8 acres. We
offered a tot lot. They had the same comment you made about the open spaces.
Who’s going to take care of the tot lot when it becomes a maintenance problem?
There’s a Homeowners Association that’s going to get dues and is going to be
responsible for maintenance. I have a landlocked parcel behind me that the
Homeowners Association takes care of. It’s their responsibility and it’s up to the
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 21
Homeowners to see that it’s done. They’re not going to want their property
devalued by a lot of weeds, especially when they’re paying 125, 150 dollars a
year to have that maintained. It’s going to be maintained by the Homeowners
Association. It’s not going to be a hazard.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Commissioner Nary’s comment on yours I think (inaudible) a little bit of a
catch 22 situation here. Unless, there’s one you’re thinking of that I’m not
remembering. The ones that have had some real creative open space stuff have
been smaller lots. It’s usually been in the Planned Unit Development site. At
least that’s what I’m thinking of. (Inaudible) down to 50-foot wide lots. When you
do that, you do have a little more flexibility. They’re trying to comply with the City
Council and get larger lots. I mean that was my thought the first time I saw –
***End Of Side One***
Borup: -- type of development. You know, it’s got subdivisions on two sides of it
and a road on the other. I think they’ve done a good job with what the (inaudible)
some large lots. You know they may have a marketing job to try to sell that price
range home as it is.
P. D’Alessio: I’d like to say one more thing about the larger lots. There have
been many comments made about larger lots in Meridian. How it doesn’t lend
itself to efficient use of City services. How do you know the 12,000 square-foot
lot makes it more difficult, makes the space between distances further? Makes it
harder to provide City services? As this lot stands right now, it’s a patch of
weeds. It’s 8 acres of dead grass, which is surrounded by nice new
developments that are going to have 150 to 170,000 dollar homes in it. Of
course in Cherry Lane they’re going to be up to $200,000. When the (inaudible)
decides to start burning those weeds, the wood fences in everybody’s back
yards are going to get squished as they did on Cloverdale and Fairview last
summer. The landowner there on an infill lot burned the weeds and almost set
the houses on fire. I think this adds to the community. I don’t think it takes
anything away and I think it’s a really nice use of those 8 acres.
Borup: You had a comment, Commissioner Centers?
Centers: Yes thank you. I’ve just got to say this. I take exception with the City
Council and their opinion of too many R-4 lots. Like we said at the outset, where
are they getting their statistics? Even if they were right, I think it’s irrelevant
where they’re getting their statistics that the 1,400 square-foot minimum house
size is not comparable. I think it’s irrelevant. If the homes adjacent are 161,800
square feet, so be it. 1,400 square-foot homes sell but if what you plan to do --
that was just my comment. I had to get that out because I don’t agree with
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 22
where they’re coming from there. What do you plan to do with that 25 feet
before you give it to the Homeowners, briefly?
D. D’Alessio: The walking path? It will be a paved, asphalt walking path.
Centers: Okay you’re going to pave it.
D. D’Alessio: Correct.
Centers: Black top?
D. D’Alessio: Black top.
Centers: Great Commissioner Nary, I totally agree with you. If you’re going to
put nothing in there or if it just turns into weeds.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Great I think of my subdivision. Recently, last weekend, I took my
granddaughter down to the park area. You have all these teenagers on their
roller blades and there wasn’t any place for them. This would be great and that
was going to be my suggestion. You black top it or pave it and give that area to
those teenagers for their roller blades and their skateboards.
D. D’Alessio: Sure.
Centers: They’re out of the road.
Borup: Any other comments? Any final comment?
D. D’Alessio: Just a reference to the over abundance of 8,000 square-foot lots. If
I tried to buy one today, I’d be hard pressed to find one right now.
Centers: Yes and you ought to know.
D. D’Alessio: That’s just about it unless you have any further questions. If not,
thank you.
Borup: Thank you do we have anyone else here to give testimony on this
application?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Any final comment from staff?
Hawkins-Clark: No.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 23
Borup: Commissioners, what would we like to do here?
Nary: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Centers: I second.
Borup: Motion is second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor?
Centers: Are we closing both?
Nary: Both.
Borup: Motion is second. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Borup: Okay we have two applications here. One is for annexation and zoning
and the other for Preliminary Plat. Do we have any discussion on the annexation
and zoning? Zoning is for R-4.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: I would agree with what Commissioner Centers said. I think an R-4 zone
is compatible. If the City Council doesn’t want it I guess they can deny it. I think
what they’ve done on the lot sizes is trying to address those concerns. They are
a little bit bigger. I think it’s probably a good way to go. It’s a little bit better than
what was here before. I think the walking path -- I think Commissioner Centers is
right. If it’s going to be paved, it’ll be maintained it can be used. I guess the City
Councilmen decided they don’t think it’s usable. Commissioner Centers
convinced me.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Based on that I’ll make a motion.
Nary: See how easy I am.
Centers: My comments about my subdivision are so true. Just last weekend,
those kids needed a place.
Nary: I hear you.
Centers: I’d like to make a motion Mr. Chairman.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 24
Borup: Commissioner Centers.
Centers: I would like to recommend approval to City Council AZ 01-009, request
for annexation and zoning of 8.15 acres from rural to R-4 for proposed Staten
Park Subdivision by D’Alessio Building Development and if I messed that up
excuse me southeast corner of Black Cat Road and West Ustick Road.
Nary: Second.
Borup: Motion is second. Any discussion?
Centers: We should include all staff comments and the fact that the applicant
knows that they must enter into a Development Agreement. Correct?
Hawkins-Clark: Commissioner Centers would you also amend that to specify the
June 4th
staff comments rather than – just so we’re clear. We’ve had these
problems before.
Centers: Correct.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you.
Borup: Any other discussion? All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Borup: Item 10.
Centers: I guess it goes hand and hand. Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes I’m sorry, I was discussing with the City Clerk. Were you ready to
make a motion Commissioner Centers?
Centers: Yes I would like to make a motion that we send to the City Council and
recommend approval for PP 01-012, request for Preliminary Plat of 23 building
lots and 5 other lots on 8.15 acres in a proposed R-4 zone for proposed Staten
Park Subdivision by D’Alessio Building Development, southeast corner of North
Black Cat Road and West Ustick Road including staff comments of June 4th
.
Nary: Second.
Borup: Motion second all in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 25
Item 11. Public Hearing: CUP 01-018 Request for a Conditional Use
Permit for a continuation of a 3-year Conditional Use Permit
granted in January of 1997 for modular buildings in an L-O zone for
Meridian Assembly of God by Meridian Assembly of God – 1830
North Linder Road:
Borup: Item No. 11 is a Public Hearing on a Conditional Use Permit 01-018.
Request for a continuation of a 3-year Conditional Use Permit for modular
buildings in an L-O zone for the Meridian Assembly of God. I’d like to open this
Public Hearing and start with staff report.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you Chairman Borup. Here is an aerial photo to give you
a sense. The very bottom left corner is the subject site where the church is here.
Crosshatch portion here. It is zoned to limited office. On the east side of Linder
Road right here are some site photos of the site as it currently exists. The back
of the modular buildings there. These are taken from Linder Road the right one
is taken internal there. So, you can see there is existing sidewalk landscaping,
trees on the site as it currently stands. Here’s a site plan showing the existing
facilities. There are comments from staff dated June 4th
. We ask that you
incorporate those. Just in summary, the reason that you’re seeing this is the
Conditional Use Permit that the church had received about 4 years ago did
expire approximately 15 months ago. This is an attempt to basically renew that
and get the site back into compliance. Most of the comments are standard and
staff is supporting essentially the renewal of this Conditional Use Permit for
modular buildings. Thanks.
Borup: Thank you any other questions for staff?
Nary: Yes, Mr. Chairman. You’re supporting the indefinite permit?
Borup: That’s what they are requesting.
Hawkins-Clark: Yes that’s correct, indefinite time period. That’s for an
enforcement reason.
Borup: Okay, is the applicant here?
Wilson: Yes.
Borup: Would you like to come forward? Did you have a chance to read the
staff comments?
Wilson: Yes I have.
Borup: Please start with your name I’m sorry.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 26
Wilson: Nate Wilson.
Borup: Address?
Wilson: My address is 1799 South Blacksmith in Meridian.
Borup: Any comments on the staff report?
Wilson: The only thing that I saw I believe was the sanitary service had some
comments there. No waste enclosure does that say, plans identified? There is a
waste enclosure on the site.
Borup: It’s just not on the plat?
Wilson: Well, I don’t know which (inaudible). This picture here, that’s an old one.
That’s pretty old there this is the waste enclosure right here.
Borup: It’s just not labeled.
Wilson: But it does exist. (Inaudible).
Borup: So, it looks like the waste enclosure is a colored cinder block, colored
block walls with a solid gate.
Wilson: Other than that, you know there is some, two ways of looking at that.
When we first became aware of this, the thought was to get another Conditional
Use Permit, another 3 years. After we got to looking into it, it became aware that
we could apply for unconditional or how is it worded there? Indefinite,
undetermined? Indefinitely rather than being tied to a specific time frame. That
is obviously our desire. Our desire would be to have this for an indefinite period
of time as opposed to limiting it to 1 year or 3 years.
Borup: It’s been four years ago and I may not remember it. My memory is that
one of the reasons for is that you were planning on leaving it temporary and
building permanent buildings there, was the testimony that I remembered at the
time. I assume that, that’s maybe changed?
Wilson: I wasn’t in the position that I am in now, four years ago. It could have
been that the talk at the time was a new building was going to be built and that
these would just be temporary. I said this is an old picture. A new building has
been built to the east there, where that existing parking lot is. That area is a new
building. It was built strictly as a new sanctuary, restrooms, and nursery. So,
there were no additional classrooms put in that. Those two portables are used
quite heavily.
Centers: They’re not on foundations or anything?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 27
Wilson: They are not on foundations. My understanding at the time they were
installed, they did excavate out the three or four foot that’s required so that in the
future should they become permanent rather than having to remove them and
put the foundation in. They could be jacked up, a foundation put in and ease that
process a little bit. So, there’s a three or four-foot clearance underneath.
Centers: Has that got a pressure treated wall all around it now, or something?
Wilson: Yes it does.
Centers: Because it’s landscaped right up to it I would think probably the other
reason at the time for a Conditional Use Permit. I don’t know that anyone knew
exactly what the completed buildings were going to look like and how the
landscaping was going to turn out and everything. I mean it’s landscaped on a
pretty permanent looking situation now.
Wilson: Yes sidewalks, trees, and grass. He had a nice picture there, a shot or
two back. There you go.
Centers: What are the long-term plans or have you looked into that?
Wilson: I would say that the long-term plans for those, again I wasn’t in this
capacity when they were constructed but I know they were constructed -- they’re
not a shabby construction there. They are built well. I can see them being used
in their permanent capacity for 10 to 15 years. The church doesn’t at this time
does not have any plans to do anything different with that area. The long-term
plans for the new building would be – the next phase would be for an addition,
again continuing to the east of that new building. That would be a classroom
complex.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Wilson: I’m sorry?
Centers: Do they back up to the parking lot, the church parking lot?
Wilson: No.
Centers: The picture on the right is –
Wilson: This is the Lutheran’s property back behind us to the south.
Borup: The front of the buildings do face the parking lot. Isn’t that correct?
Wilson: Actually, they – can you go to that next shot?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 28
Borup: That bottom shot is from the parking lot. That’s the parking lot right
there.
Wilson: This is Linder Road out here. This is just an entrance (inaudible). There
is (inaudible) parking spaces right here but the main parking area is out here on
the east down beyond the buildings.
Borup: I guess what that pavement there Commissioner Centers was an
entrance between this and the other main buildings. That shows it right there.
Wilson: Yes this is just the entrance in off of Linder. Again there are four or five
parking spaces right in here. (Inaudible).
Borup: Okay any other questions from the Commissioners?
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I guess maybe this one’s for Brad initially. There’s a statement here in
your staff report that says modular temporary buildings are not encouraged. I
guess my concern would be that if we were to approve this for this indefinite,
forever period of time, what standard, if any, would we have for any other
business that wants to put temporary buildings forever and ever next to it?
Whether it’s Maverick or it’s Jackson’s, Texaco, any of them? What standard are
they going to have if we never have any ending date? We just let everybody
have them forever? How do we prevent a glut of these types of things?
Hawkins-Clark: Commissioner Nary. I guess the answer is that they all require a
Conditional Use Permit. The only temporary trailers you can have under the
Zoning Ordinance are construction trailers that are moved in strictly for the period
of construction. Otherwise all other trailers have to have a Condition Use. This
body will always have the authority to determine when and where and how long
they go. Typically we do see occasionally the offices that use them for extra
space. Schools of course use them. Part of it I think is services. I don’t know,
maybe Nate does it there. Are there water and sewer to these modular
buildings?
Wilson: Yes each of the two buildings both have two restrooms.
Hawkins-Clark: That is unusual for temporary modular buildings.
Centers: Wouldn’t there be a concern though? I mean we just have a bank
down here US Bank had a temporary building that they used for a long period of
time. I guess what I’m afraid of is the encouragement to establish your building
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 29
using a temporary building. Then leave it there long enough that you say well,
we put grass around it and put trees on it so now it’s not really an eye sore
anymore. Is there a reason that we don’t want to have modular buildings or not?
It seems to me that if we allow this, with this sort of open-ended we’re really
saying there is no standard like this. You can build temporary buildings and
make them into permanent buildings. I guess it doesn’t seem like a whole lot of
structure as to why don’t we allow it to begin with without having limitation if
we’re going to just eventually just allow them to have (inaudible)?
Hawkins-Clark: I guess I do agree with you. I think it’s a good point. I think
aesthetics is certainly probably you know and storm I‘m not a builder I don’t know
in terms of the -- they do have to be manufactured to uniform building code. I
don’t think it’s an issue of safety, in terms of public safety. I think it probably is
mainly an aesthetic argument. Certainly you have the privilege to make a
statement to that affect. To say we don’t want modular buildings.
Centers: Excuse me technically, they’ve been in violation for a year and now
we’re going to reward them with an indefinite time period.
Borup: I can say those three years went really fast because I can remember this
application.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: And, I’m not trying to pick on this applicant I’m just concerned that by
granting these extensions or granting it to be an indefinite, there’s no intention. If
we revoke this permit, you’re going to have to build a building there because
you’d like to use that space for whatever you’re using it for now. Would that be
right?
Wilson: I don’t know that -- if these were revoked and we were forced to remove
them, we would not be in a position to replace them. We would have to --
Centers: Your next phase may incorporate whatever those uses that the
buildings are for now or something else. Would that be what you’d have to do?
Wilson: Again, that next phase is years down the road.
Centers: I’m not a builder, but I think personally I think the Building Department
may allow you to jack them up and put a foundation under them?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Wilson: That was the conversation that I had –
Centers: Meridian doesn’t have that in R-4 zoning.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 30
Borup: Commissioner Shreeve.
Shreeve: What are the buildings used for again?
Wilson: They’re classrooms. They have Sunday school classrooms in there for
Sunday mornings and then Wednesdays we have activities for kids there.
Currently, we’ve got an AA group from the community that meets in there on
Saturday nights. In fact, there are two groups like that that use those buildings.
Open them up for different organizations in the community to use.
Shreeve: One of my comments would be, I don’t think the buildings are
offensive. They’re landscaped very nice and maintained very nice. They’re
certainly different than a permanent structure would be architecturally. I’m
thinking along the same line as the comments from Commissioner Nary. When
this was presented to us, it was presented as three years or so then a permanent
building was going in. That’s the way the original application was. That’s what
was presented to this Commission and I assume to the City Council. If it was not
able to foresee that far ahead then it probably should have been stated different
in the initial application. I don’t know what a reasonable time is. I think having to
come back every three years is probably a nuisance. I would think that
something could be done better than a three-year renewal. I guess I’ve got
some concern on it being perpetual. Likewise it can also be called in on 30-day
notice. Is that the standard thing, Brad for Conditional Use?
Hawkins-Clark: Right which is not included in the staff report.
Shreeve: That’s what I was looking for.
Hawkins-Clark: You certainly have the right to add that and I would encourage
you –
Shreeve: Either that or get some type of time frame in there.
Nary: That’s what I was thinking Mr. Chairman. I mean certainly we have the
right to reconsider granting that at any time based on that kind of notice. Like I
said, I’m not really bothered by this one. It looks like it’s very nice and it looks
like it’s maintained and I don’t if anybody’s here to speak against it. I’m more
concerned that we have a reason to think that we don’t want temporary buildings
all over town. Then if we grant it to you, then we have a hard time telling 7-
Eleven we just don’t like it there. We just don’t like those kind of things. They
can always make them look nice. That doesn’t mean we necessarily want them
all over the place. I guess that’s what I’m a little torn about. If you had come
three years ago, and I know it wasn’t you particularly sir but if the church had
come three years ago and said, we’d like to have this forever and ever I don’t
know, the Commission may have granted or not. They would have considered it
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 31
differently than knowing that the intention was that it was temporary. We’re going
to build another building in three years and it’s just temporary. Because that’s
what we generally hear is that it’s just a short period of time that’s what we
anticipate in approving that. If it’s forever, which is what we’re asked to do today,
then I have a little harder time with because like I said I think there’s a reason
that we have those kind of regulations or that kind of desire from a planning
perspective of not having these type of structures all over the place.
Wilson: Are there regulations that forbid these units?
Hawkins-Clark: No.
Wilson: You just say temporary buildings are not encouraged?
Borup: Temporary buildings are not even allowed. That’s why a Conditional Use
Permit was applied for rather than a Building Permit. I assume a Building Permit
was also, but in addition to the Building Permit, a Conditional Use Permit. Is
there some time frame that will work in that you’d be comfortable with? Ten
years or something like that? I don’t know which way the Commission is going or
thinking but, something along that line?
Wilson: I could be comfortable with that.
Borup: Is that a time frame that you think you would have some plans more
concrete maybe.
Wilson: Again, there are existing plans for that future expansion.
Borup: No future plans for this area though?
Wilson: When that new phase will be built on the east side of the new building,
the classroom unit that I spoke of, that would eliminate the need for the portable
classrooms. I would imagine that they would be removed and just used as grass
area.
Borup: Maybe that’s what I’m remembering them talking about. I don’t remember
specifics but that might have been –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Wilson: Again, depending on how long we were able to keep them.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Any other questions for Mr. Wilson?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 32
Nary: No, thanks.
Wilson: Thank you sir.
Borup: Do we have anyone else here to testify on this application? Thank you,
Commissioners?
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Centers.
Centers: I think the key words were they’re not allowed. I couldn’t bring myself
to give this an indefinite time period when they’re not allowed now. I guess I’d
like to maybe split the difference. They’ve been in violation for a year. Give
them two more plus three. That’s 5 years, something like that and have them
come back. In that time frame, they can check on jacking them up and putting a
foundation under them. Check with the City of Meridian Building Department and
check the expense to do that so that at the end of five years -- and just forget
about us. You’ve got your Building Permit and it’s passed. That’s the way I feel.
Shreeve: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes, Commissioner Shreeve.
Shreeve: I feel the same way. I think 10 years is too long. Indefinite is not at all.
Certainly it’s a good use at this point and time. Then give them basically five
years to regroup, get that other phase put together, get the financing, whatever it
takes then that way we’re not stuck with something permanent. (Inaudible) on
something permanent. I also understand staff’s comment on not wanting to
worry about this every few years.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Yes.
Nary: Is there a need, because I heard Brad say this before that we either make
it clear in the motion or make it clear in the language, or is that Ordinance clear
enough that also any Conditional Use Permit? I think the Ordinance is clear
enough, but any Conditional Use Permit could be reviewed or revoked with 30
days notice. I guess I’m with what Commissioner Centers and Shreeve said. I
think the applicant here, no different than any other people asking for these types
of uses, needs to know there is some finality here unless they want to come back
and probably some of us will all be sitting here in 5 years. The incentive is to get
these out and get real buildings on there or to make these more of a permanent
structure. I guess without having an ending date at sunset of some sort, there’s
no incentive to ever do that. I think we should have some (inaudible) here. That
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 33
would be what we would like to have, is these not necessarily be temporary
structures because we’re not really going to encourage that for any of them
around town anywhere.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Okay I guess we didn’t – no we didn’t close the Public Hearing.
Nary: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Centers: I second.
Borup: Motion second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Borup: Does someone want to make a motion then (inaudible)?
Shreeve: I will Mr. Chairman. I’ll make a motion that we approve CUP 01-018
the request for Conditional Use Permit for continuation of a 5 year Conditional
Use Permit granted today I guess for modular buildings in an L-O zone for
Meridian Assembly of God by Meridian Assembly of God 1830 North Linder
Road.
Centers: Commissioner Shreeve would you be (inaudible) adding the fact or just
reiterating the fact that there is a 30-day revocation clause on a CUP?
Shreeve: So stated. Of course, also any other applicable staff comments and
requirements in their June 4th
memorandum.
Centers: I would second that.
Borup: Motion is second. Any discussion? Seeing none, all in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Item 12. Public Hearing: CUP 01-019 Request for a Conditional Use
Permit for a free-standing bank building with a drive-thru window
and ATM machines in an I-L zone for Meridian Crossroads
Shopping Center by Dakota Company, Inc. – south of East
Fairview Avenue and east of North Eagle Road:
Borup: Item No. 12. Public Hearing CUP 01-019, request for another
Conditional Use Permit for a free-standing bank building, a drive thru window and
ATM machines in an I-L zone in Meridian Crossroads Shopping Center by
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 34
Dakota Company Incorporated. I’d like to open this Public Hearing and start with
the staff report Mr. Brad Hawkins-Clark.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you Chairman Borup. Again, here is an aerial photo. It’s
somewhat dated. It does not show much of the new construction and I’m sure
you’re all familiar with this site. As shown on this screen, they’re proposing a
Red Cross Building here on, I -- no I think it is a bank. There are, I believe, three
pads, I could be corrected there by the applicant that are yet to be leased from
Dakota Company in this project out on Fairview Avenue and this is one of those.
The original Conditional Use Permit that was approved a few years ago requires
that drive thru facilities come back before the City as a Conditional Use Permit.
That is the reason why they are here. The pad is shown here. There is a drive
entrance off of Fairview. It’s the one immediately west of Records which has the
signal here. The Texas Roadhouse Restaurant is here on this corner. This
would be the next pad to the west. Our comments of June 4th
, I believe you
have, we ask that those be incorporated into any motion. I don’t think there was
any unusual conditions or any conditions that the applicant has disagreed with
staff on so I’ll just leave it at that.
Borup: Okay would the applicant like to come forward and make any
statements?
Paulson: Hello I’m John Paulson with Dakota Development Company, 380 East
Park Center Boulevard Suite 100 Boise, Idaho.
Borup: Thank you. Mr. Paulson, I guess you noticed staff recommends approval
of this application?
Paulson: Yes.
Borup: Any comments on any of their conditions that you have any concern or
question on?
Paulson: We totally agree with the conditions and we totally concur with the
recommendation to approve.
Borup: Okay thank you. Do we have anyone else here to testify on this
application? I thought maybe we might have had the person from the public for
that. It’s on the other one I guess Commissioners? They did a good job of siting
it. The drive-thru is facing Fairview. Yes, far away from any possible neighbors.
Nary: There appears to be adequate traffic flow for that area as it is.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Shreeve: You can do your banking while you have breakfast too at IHOP so.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 35
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I guess I move to close the Public Hearing.
Borup: Okay motion to close the Public Hearing. We don’t have a second.
Shreeve: Second.
Borup: Motion is second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Borup: Okay.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: I would recommend approval of CUP 01-019 a request for a Conditional
Use Permit for a free-standing bank building with a drive-thru window and ATM
machine in an I-L zone for the Meridian Crossroads Shopping Center by Dakota
Company south of East Fairview Avenue and east of North Eagle Road,
including all staff’s comments of June 4th
. I don’t think there’s any (inaudible).
Centers: I second.
Borup: Motion is second. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Item 13. Public Hearing: PFP 01-001 Request for Preliminary/Final Plat
approval of 4 building lots on 4.94 acres in an I-L zone for Seven
Gates Industrial Subdivision by Dakota Company – southwest
corner of Commercial and Machine Avenue, east of North Nola
Road:
Borup: Item No. 13. Public Hearing PFP-01-001, request for Preliminary and
Final Plat approval of 4 building lots I-L zone, Seven Gates Industrial Subdivision
for Dakota Company. I would like to open this hearing and start with the staff
report, Mr. Hawkins-Clark.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you Chairman Borup. This is a re-subdivision of an
existing platted industrial subdivision. The crosshatched lots are shown here on
the south side of East Commercial Street. Again, Nola Road here is adjacent to
the railroad tracks. There are these three existing lots at the extreme east
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 36
(inaudible) of Commercial. The dashed lines represented here show the current
lot lines. The crosshatched buildings are shown there. As you can see they are
proposing to maintain the existing three buildings here on the east end of this
and create a 4th
lot here on the west end of this. Here are some photos of the
site. As you noticed in the staff report dated June 4th
, there are some existing
issues with code enforcement in terms of parking problems, storage problems
that are not fenced. This is the unpaved existing lot that they are proposing to
place a new building on in the future. That 4th
lot here, they do currently have
this existing temporary office building. Speaking of temporary buildings that is
currently in use, all of those issues were addressed I think by Dave McKinnon in
his staff report. The main issue is that they be resolved. That the parking on
Commercial (inaudible) the parking lot. I guess we don’t have a slide of the
parking. I think your packets have a site plan that they submitted that showed
parking. There is a parking lot dedicated here on the south end of this lot I
believe that they can take some of the automobiles that are parking on
Commercial here and pot back here. The applicant can talk about that more.
Borup: Is that area paved presently, on the side?
Hawkins-Clark: I believe it is, yes.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) the conditions in the staff report addressed that all
parking must be retained on site and that will be prior to a signature on the final
plat. We don’t see these too often but this is a Preliminary Final together. So, if
you recommend approval of this, you are recommending approval of the
Preliminary Plat and the Final Plat together to City Council. I think the only other
item to point out there will be a need for getting approval from this last new
property owner as far as the drainage. All the drainage for these is proposed to
be drained I believe here to the south end of this new lot. There must be a
drainage operations and Maintenance Agreement between all the owners to take
care of that. That was addressed in item No. 7 on Page 3. I think that’s it.
Borup: Okay thank you.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: My name is Larry Durkin. My address is 380 East Park Center
Boulevard Boise. I’m with Dakota Company. I’m here tonight on behalf of the
owners of this plat. This is –
Borup: You were not representing the owners the first time. Isn’t that correct?
Durkin: That’s correct.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 37
Borup: Do you have any idea why they didn’t go ahead and just have the plat
recorded a year ago? It looks like it would have saved them a lot of troubles.
Durkin: I think that one of the main problems was they couldn’t, while they got
the plat approval, they couldn’t accomplish what they were trying to accomplish
with the Ordinances that were in place at that time.
Borup: On the landscaping?
Durkin: On the landscaping and certain setbacks. There have been some
clarifications to the Ordinance that now this application is in full compliance with
those setbacks. I’ll be honest with you on the record tonight I think there was a
personality conflict with one of the applicants. They stepped back and said what
do you recommend? They followed all of our recommendations and we’re here
for them tonight.
Borup: See on this one too, staff also recommended approval.
Durkin: Yes.
Borup: But, there are a few in the site-specific comments that would probably be
(inaudible).
Durkin: Only two things in the site-specific comments that I’m going to ask for a
minor modification because I’ve got like a chicken situation. I also want to just
talk on the record for the applicant with their permission specifically on this issue
different comments at the last Public Hearing and at the Council about off-street
parking. What we’re proposing to do will solve the on street parking problems
caused by these three existing tenants. We would also encourage whoever the
entity is that’s responsible for signing a street for parking, we would waive any
rights to complain about that or object to that. This is a situation where there are
three existing buildings. It was a rather unusual transaction where the City of
Boise actually bought this property, built these buildings and did an exchange
with the owners for some airport property.
Borup: This property here, you’re referring to the City of Boise owned it at one
time?
Durkin: Well, they bought it to facilitate an exchange for some property out along
the airport.
Borup: Three-way exchange?
Durkin: Yes obviously the buildings were built over the property lines and some
people didn’t check. There wasn’t any financing. I don’t know how it got to
where it is today. Our desire is to clean up some property lines and some
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 38
compliance issues and also the Chem-Lawn and the moving company are
located in this project. They’ve outgrown the facilities and the new lot which will
be owned by the same group, will accommodate their needs and will get the
temporary office out of there. We’ll get the outside storage out of there and put
that in a new building.
Borup: Then we’re not looking at new tenant here?
Durkin: We don’t have a new tenant –
Borup: I mean other than, it’s the same tenants in one of those buildings will be
expanding so employee parking would not increase appreciably?
Durkin: No it would not increase appreciably. The staff did an analysis on that.
We’ve been out to the site with Steve Siddoway, walking through. He’s talked to
the tenants and looked specifically at what they have outside and what their
needs are. He has talked to them. I do have a minor problem and that a
condition, site-specific conditions 4 and 5. I can’t build this building and solve
this problem until I get the plat signed and until I can get a Building Permit, until I
can get moving. So I’m asking you to allow a minor modification to those two
conditions unless the developer can demonstrate that the new buildings and the
development will accommodate all of the on site storage and parking for the rest
of the plat within six months. That gives me time to get the plat recorded, get the
Building Permit, build the building and then move the stuff. Otherwise I’ll have to
move it somewhere far away and get the plat recorded then move it back. Then
build the building and then move it into the buildings. That’s the intention of the
family that owns this, to build a building on the site to put and clean up and clear
up all of the site issues. To do all that before I get the plat signed, it’s a burden.
On the other hand if that is not something that you can bring yourself to do, I
obviously will agree with these conditions. We agree with all the other
conditions. So, the point, I’d like to make is we waive any objection to any off
street parking signage, I’m sorry street signage relating to parking, any
enforcement of that. We will come into full compliance with all the code issues.
We would like to clean up the area and get it cleaned up as soon as possible.
Borup: So, you’re saying that the concern is on Items 4 and 5?
Durkin: Well, Items 4 and 5 specifically say we have to solve these problems
prior to the signing of the plat.
Borup: You can’t solve them until you get the building built with the new parking
spaces and more storage space?
Durkin: Right now, I’ve got the moving company -- is bursting at the seams in
one building. They’re stacked on top of each other. I can solve it but it would
require taking everything, moving it down the street to another vacant lot, walk in,
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 39
get the signature on the plat, show the picture saying everything’s gone then I
could move it all back –
***End Of Side Two***
Durkin: -- six months after this plat is recorded, we’ll clear all of that. The
location is in this new building. So if you can find a way and a motion, if you
were inclined to approve this to give me, to get rid of the chicken egg problem
that would be very helpful. If you can’t, we will make arrangements to move
things down the street.
Borup: I count about 23 parking spaces newly created. Does that sound about
right?
Durkin: I have the exact number here. That’s correct.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: One of the pictures we saw up there, Mr. Durkin, with the -- what’s now
that 4th
lot, that empty lot. It had a bunch of trailers on it and some cars. I guess
I’m not clear. How is building a building on it going to alleviate some of the
parking of the vehicles that are on there now? Where are they going to go?
Durkin: Okay I’m going to walk over. Thanks John. Right now, we have Chem-
Lawn that occupies this building. Meridian’s been good to them and it’s been a
terrific facility for them. There is a cross Easement Agreement for this overall
parcel. However, this building is occupied by a moving company and Meridian’s
been great for them. So, they have a lot of their trucks and things parked out
here, pallets, loading boxes and relating to their business which doesn’t then
provide for the Chem-Lawn people to park here. The Chem-Lawn people are
parking out on the street more often than we’re comfortable with. We don’t have
the right, the owners do not have the right in their lease because it’s a signed
lease that they purchased to limit that ability from them. As far as the owners are
concerned and Chem-Lawn’s concerned, they’re not in violation. Chem-Lawn
has agreed to park on site if we can make room for them. I can’t make room for
them until I build a new building, which these people will occupy and the vast
majority of everything that’s stored outside here will go into that new building,
freeing up parking in this area for Chem-Lawn. So, that’s one of the problems
that’s addressed in the staff report.
Nary: So, the moving company’s going to have two buildings?
Durkin: That’s correct.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 40
Nary: Do you have a signed lease?
Durkin: I don’t know, but I’m almost positive that they do. I can tell you, Steve
Siddoway has been out and met with them. I can’t say for certain but I am fairly
certain that there’s a signed agreement. Frankly, it’s embarrassing there’s a
bunch of junk on this lot. Some of it belongs to the moving company and some
of it belongs to other industrial people in the area because it’s just a vacant lot. A
couple of the trailers that are parked here are extra trailers that the moving
company owns and they have stuff stored in them, which is, I don’t believe
against the rules in Meridian for an industrial lot. It’s not something that the
family is happy with. By building a new building, those trailers all go away,
what’s in those trailers goes in the building. What’s out around this building goes
into this building. There are no additional new employees as a result of this.
Now, our parking for Chem-Lawn and this rent me office building goes away
because their office will be here. Those employees will be moving down. It’s just
a great improvement for the two major people that are in the facility.
Nary: Mr. Chairman what’s in the second building there then? Building number
two, or lot number two there?
Durkin: There are a variety of small tenants that are in there.
Nary: It would seem to me that if you build another building so that moving
company will now be in two buildings, doesn’t that give them the ability to expand
their business somewhat so they’ll have more employees? I can’t imagine
they’re building another building to tread water and just maintain the same size
company that they have.
Durkin: I’m trying to keep it clean here. There’s a saying about 10 pounds in a
5-pound bag. There’s more stuff in these three buildings than these three
buildings can accommodate. The Forsythe family owns all of this land. In an
effort to accommodate their existing tenants with their existing needs, their desire
is to build a new building on the site they can’t now, build a building here
because there’s an Ordinance in Meridian that they can’t have two buildings on
the same lot. In addition, there’s a lot line running down this building. This
application is 100 percent clean up of a lot of different problems that were
purchased on purpose by the family without doing their research.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner –
Nary: I would agree with what you’re saying Mr. Durkin. Certainly, cleaning up
the lot lines makes total sense to me and even creating the 4th
lot makes sense.
That seems fine. I guess, and I know you didn’t create this problem, but it would
appear to me by what the City is asking for is some enforcement mechanism.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 41
What’s happened is they granted a Conditional Use Permit and a Preliminary
Plat that never got recorded. I guess a Preliminary Plat that never got recorded.
Otherwise, if they had we wouldn’t be here and there’s a whole big mess over
there that nobody has any real enforcement mechanism to get cleaned up. So, I
think that’s what the City’s looking for, is some enforcement mechanism to be
able to make sure we don’t just keep perpetuating this problem that I know you
didn’t create.
Durkin: I have a suggestion that we’ve done on other plats. You know, when
we’ve done plats with the City of Meridian. The Wal-Mart parcel at the beginning
one of the requirements was to build the wall and do all of these improvements.
Our desire was to get going and do it all at once. So, we bonded for it. So,
there’s a bonding mechanism. We could make it incredibly painful that’s one
suggestion. 110 percent of the value of the land and all of the improvements in a
letter of credit from Farmer’s and Merchant’s Bank to the City. They have every
intention of doing it. Their offices are here, they live here and we can make a
financial penalty. I don’t know legally what the City of Meridian or with the
County or whoever controls this plat, how you can. You can put a condition on a
plat that you have to do certain things and those conditions don’t go away after
it’s signed. It’s very difficult for us to solve the problem. I can make it go away
for three days, no problem. I don’t want – I’m telling you that’s the remedy for us.
I can move it across the street and move it back. Meridian doesn’t have anything
to gain out of it. Have me put a half a million dollar letter of credit with you that if
it isn’t taken care of in six months, the City can cash. There are penalties and
there are a lot of different things that we can do. I’m only making a suggestion. I
definitely am not trying to take away any enforcement provisions that you have.
I’m just telling you what our problem is and I’m trying to figure out a way to get
around it. If you can’t see your way tonight to get around it, then I’ll live with this
condition and I’ll move the stuff down the street and rent a piece of dirt from
someone for a couple of weeks so I can get through that process. I do a lot of
applications with the City of Meridian and I’m completely and truthful with our
applications and what we’re trying to do tonight.
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner.
Nary: As follow up to that, Brad, I mean, did I misread this. That was what I
assumed was the intent of having something like that is to make sure that we
don’t have this continued problem. The way I read this right now, we don’t want
to perpetuate this problem any longer. I think that what Mr. Durkin is partially
correct. I don’t know if using the plat as the mechanism is as effective as maybe
other tools. I don’t know if some other considerations were made or this is what
you thought was the best tool. Could you give us some of your thoughts on that?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 42
Hawkins-Clark: Yes Commissioner Nary. My apologies for not having been
more familiar with this. Just on the front end of this, I’d have to agree. I think the
letter of credit idea, I don’t see why that wouldn’t be your main tool. They would
have to basically bond for the off street parking.
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Centers.
Centers: I think that’s excellent. What we could do tonight, we could approve
this with all conditions as submitted. You come back to the Council with your
substitute for Item 4 and 5. This is what we want to substitute for it and have it in
writing.
Durkin: I could do that.
Centers: I think, tonight’s not the time. I think the time to do that is when you
take it to the Council.
Durkin: Commissioner Centers, my intent tonight is to just be complete with you
so you know what we’re up against. So that if it comes back from Council you
hear about it from Council in another way, you’ll know that I brought it up tonight.
That’s my intent.
Nary: What we could also do, Commissioner Centers, is also include that
because Council does try to look at what our recommendations are. We could
include that as part of the motion that we would maintain the staff comments as
written but we would also recommend other alternatives which may include a
letter of credit or something else. You may think of something more creative and
more feasible between now and then. That gives you some flexibility and lets
the Council at least be advised that we’ve looked at that and we consider really
anything reasonable because it think all of us on the Commission have the same
objective the staff does.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Centers: Kind of a monetary guarantee for your six months that you want.
Borup: Mr. Durkin, I have a couple of questions. The present site plan shows
parking between the two buildings is that used as parking presently? You said
that’s storage mainly at this point?
Durkin: It’s striped.
Borup: It is striped but not being used?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 43
Durkin: It’s not being used to it’s fullest.
Borup: I was just looking at the – I mean I counted about 23 created on the new
lot. It looks like a lot of parking places are being taken up with storage is the
other problem. The staff report says 18 to 20 and 5 to 6 on the lot. That’s 23
lots taken on the low end plus everything else is going to be freed up back there.
Re-reading No. 4, and Commissioner Nary maybe (inaudible). I don’t see where
there’s a problem with item No. 4 –
Durkin: It’s only 5. I was just trying to – it’s addressed in both of those.
Borup: Yes because in 4 it says that you just need to demonstrate and I think the
plat will demonstrate that. Really the whole thing is just item No. 5. They’re
going to have to remove the stuff off the lot to construct the building and develop
the lot so that part takes care of itself. The really only question is where do you
park the cars while the things being built. It’s a dead end street. Is that still
correct? Shane Avenue does not go anywhere?
Nary: I guess Mr. Chairman, I think, at least what I was reading is that what the
staff’s concern was is that we really stop this flood now. The assumption is that
when it’s all done and constructed and things are put where they belong that
they will have (inaudible). They’re wanting to stop it now just because it seems
like it’s gotten out of hand. I guess the compromise is, we’re not trying to reward
bad behavior but we’re also trying to be reasonable as well. So, we’re trying to
find (inaudible) because, obviously it’s not a big heartburn. (Inaudible).
Shreeve: I’ve got a question. You know, as we talk about doing this
improvement now you mentioned in the Lease Agreement that you have no way
of enforcing it. How do we know that it just won’t go back to what it is now?
Durkin: If the City of Meridian or the Ada County Highway District or whoever is
controlling – it’s a public street. Right now you could drive over there, park your
car there anytime you want. There’s nothing legally that we can do now to say
you can’t out on the street. The reason they’re parking on the street is there’s
nowhere to park on site because there’s too much junk stacked all over the
place. We are going to demonstrate to you throughout this whole process that
we are going to get rid of that junk and provide striped, lined completed parking
stalls in accordance with the plat and in accordance with all of the City
requirements.
Shreeve: But, there wouldn’t be any other assurance that there would be
storage?
Durkin: We’ll be in full compliance with all your codes. All your outside storage
codes and everything with this application.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 44
Shreeve: To work with you initially to clean it up is one thing but then to make
sure that it stays.
Borup: Probably looking at things like, I assume fire code with an access around
the building and the temporary trailer that’s there. Those things should be in the
code now and can be enforced.
Durkin: They are. You could go out today and say –
Borup: The other stuff is, things are going to happen running a business. I don’t
have a big problem with parking on the street that’s what it’s there for, but not --
Durkin: That’s the thing I don’t have control on the lease. In the lease I can’t
know go back and say –
Borup: But, they’re using handicap spaces on a (inaudible) basis and that’s
(inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Shreeve: (Inaudible) the parking as much as it just having a bunch of junk or
(inaudible).
Durkin: I have complete control over that in the lease. I’ve read the leases. We
have –
Borup: Oh, you do?
Durkin: We have control over the on site storage.
Borup: Okay I thought someone said there wasn’t.
Durkin: What I said before is I don’t have any control in the lease, I can’t make a
restriction in the lease now that their employees can’t park out on the street.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: Because this is not a CUP situation where we could add those kind of
conditions. I mean this is a little different but you’re right, it’s a street they can
park there that’s fine. They probably won’t park there as much if there’s not
storage out there in the middle of the parking lot.
Borup: They’re going to (inaudible) where it’s convenient for them. On site’s
going to be more convenient because you don’t have to worry about –
Centers: Just control the storage.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 45
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: The Forsythe Family asked me to stand up in front of you tonight and
commit to you that they will control the storage. Their desire in life is to clean it
up and clean it up as soon as possible.
Borup: It sounds like, we’re saying in No. 5 that the storage –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: -- that was my other question. You said, you give a six month time
period. Is that reasonable?
Durkin: Yes.
Borup: You’re going to have the building built and the streets paved in that time?
Durkin: Or, I’ll have it out of there. Everything’s finished. There was a question
about the back of this lot being paved it is paved. This (inaudible). I can do all of
these improvements in that amount of time.
Borup: Get the buildings up. I mean it looked like that was just maybe cutting
you a little tight.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Those are some large buildings and you know a big project to be doing.
Six months from what time approval of the Final Plat?
Durkin: Final signature on the plat.
Borup: I mean that’s enough time if the bids are out and it’s ready to go. If not,
you know, you don’t have plans?
Durkin: We have plans.
Borup: Okay.
Durkin: We have plans and specs ready to go right now.
Borup: Okay that would be the only thing. (Inaudible) No. 5 rather than worded
as such rather than prior to signing the plat that there would be a bond.
Durkin: Mr. Chairman, I’m happy to address that at the Council. I just wanted
you to know about it because that is the only thing I will address there.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 46
Borup: I think we could make that as a recommendation. Can’t we get some
sample wording in here?
Nary: Couldn’t we put that as prior to issuance of a Building Permit instead of
signing the plat.
Borup: Oh, prior to issuance of the Occupancy Permit?
Nary: Before the Building Permit? Before they get the Building Permit, they’re
going to have to provide a bond. That way it goes hand and hand and you don’t
have the time problem because you’re going to pull a Building Permit when you
get ready to build it so you should be able to provide the bond at the same time.
Borup: Item No. 5 could also be stated as prior to the issuance of the CO,
Certificate of Occupancy.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Right wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing, if all these conditions
were complied with by the time --
Durkin: I wish I could go off the record, but I can’t. I would just remind you that
the desire from the City –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: (Inaudible) to tie it – would tie it to the time of the signature of the plat if
I were you. I don’t think my clients would like to hear me say that but, I know
you’re looking for protection.
Borup: So, does this do it then? Any problem with removing the office, the
temporary trailer office?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Is that included in the six months?
Durkin: That’s included in the six months.
Borup: All storage and parking lot shall be removed within six months of the
signature of the Final Plat. Is that – guaranteed by bond? Is that all we’re trying
to say?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 47
Durkin: I think, just to help Will as we go down the road on this later. I think Will
likes letters of credit. Having done them before, you’re not a big bond fan. He’s
the guy that has to -- he’s a much (inaudible). It doesn’t matter to us.
Centers: If it’s signed by a Banker.
Durkin: It’s also good to put in a local bank.
Borup: Then all we need to do in our motion -- make that as a recommendation
–
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Are we ready to move on then?
Durkin: That’s the end of my testimony.
Borup: Thank you Mr. Durkin. (Inaudible).
Nary: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Hawkins-Clark: Chairman Borup I’m sorry I was raising my hand up here. I did
have one question which I just saw on the site plan. The staff report didn’t
address -- it shows that there’s actually a proposed building four and a proposed
building five. Two buildings on the new lot. If that’s the case then that requires a
Conditional Use Permit. Not that it precludes you from grouping on this tonight.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: This plat shows it attached, but they’re numbering two buildings. Did we
close the Public Hearing?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: Building No. 1 on there is that --
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: The highest number of that would be an addition to the one building. It
wouldn’t be a separate Building Permit it would be one building. The front part of
it would be built immediately. The back part of it would be built as an addition. In
fact, they’re going to do it all at the same time. You’re welcome to put that in as
a condition. When this application was very first done, several years ago, that
was what their plan was.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 48
Nary: Would they need an amended plat to reflect that it’s two buildings even
though they’re obviously attached to one another? Or, at least pretty close to
one another in the plat but, would you need an amended plat?
Durkin: The plat shows it’s all one building.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: They just need it amended? I was just asking.
Hawkins-Clark: I think we would like to see a correct and they already have the
condition to change the date to 2001 from 99. Then of course they’re also going
to have to modify note No. 4, which says that they’re asking for a variance, which
they don’t need to do now.
Durkin: The plat doesn’t really – my experience in this, the plat won’t have
buildings on it. The plat is just showing lots. The plan that you’re looking at is
the plat showing lots and the buildings are drawn on there.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: My experience has been, it’s just on one single case that we had a
problem with. Once you put the buildings on the plat and that’s what the public
theoretically has seen. To change it, then we’re supposed to have a Public
Hearing about it.
Durkin: Then can I suggest an easy way to fix that is just to have, in reference to
that as what building what four and five on lot one, be one building.
Borup: Or, ignore the building on the plat.
Nary: Well, I think they did it because it shows clearly why the lot lines are being
adjusted essentially which is fine. Like I said once you put them there, I think
you’ve got an issue with just changing it without making it clear. That’s the
(inaudible)
Borup: To me that’s not a big concern on this in an industrial –
Nary: I would agree –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Durkin: One building all at once. We’re happy it was –
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 49
Nary: I think it just needs that we would include that we submit to the Council or
before Final Plat approval the corrected site plan so it’s just correct in what it is. I
don’t think it’s a big problem.
Durkin: May I, just for the record, answer that drainage issue? There was a
drainage question before.
Borup: I think the question was, it shows it on lot one and we want to make sure
and I guess that answers the question. Same owner on all.
Durkin: The same owner and there’s an agreement that will be in place to that
effect.
Borup: Because theoretically they could sell those lots now separately. Wasn’t
that the concern Brad? That if the lot was sold at a later time that there would be
some agreement there?
Hawkins-Clark: Right.
Borup: You did say that would be included in on the plat.
Durkin: Just again, to clean it up a little bit. We’re inheriting some work that was
previously done. You might include in your motion to have the applicant note on
the Final Plat the drainage area to service lots 1, 2 and 3 noted on the plat and
it’s recorded (inaudible).
Borup: Add note on there. Okay that will be included in the motion.
Durkin: Does that make the –
Borup: Thank you Mr. Durkin. Anything else Brad?
Hawkins-Clark: I’m sorry just for clarification, you’re not saying to omit our
recommended Condition No. 7 or are you saying that? That says they still need
a separate agreement. Are you saying that you’re going to take off the
requirement that they need a separate agreement and just put it on the note as a
note on the final plat or do both? That’s the main concern that we have.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I don’t think we’re striking 7, just to have them add it on the plat.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: I move we close the Public Hearing.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 50
Shreeve: Second.
Borup: Motion second to close the Public Hearing. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Borup: Okay are we ready?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: I was going to say, do you want to go ahead and do it, according to
discussion or do you want to discuss it a little bit first?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Nary: All right Mr. Chairman I would move that we approve PFP 01-001. The
request for Preliminary Plat and Final Plat approval of 4 building lots on 4.94
acres in an I-L zone for the Seven Gates Industrial Subdivision by Dakota
Company at the southwest corner of Commercial and Machine Avenue, east of
North Nolan Road to include all staff comments of June 4th
with the following
amendments. That we add, I guess to site-specific comment 5 that the applicant
may propose a letter of credit from a local bank as an alternative that within six
months of the signing of the Final Plat to remove all of the existing storage and
existing temporary office trailer from the site and the letter of credit will grant
assurance that, that will be completed or the City will have the funds in which to
make that removal. They can propose either one of the City Council to consider
whichever one they feel is most appropriate in this approval. That they add an
additional comment, I guess it would be No. 12, that there be an amended site
plan of this plat to reflect the proper buildings on lots 1, 2, 3 and 4 and that also
site specific comment I guess it would be No. 13 that there be a note on the Final
Plat I guess defining all of the drainage for lots 1,2, 3 and 4 and the location of
that drainage. I think that was all the amendments that we discussed, unless
anyone else (inaudible).
Borup: I don’t really follow your comment on the plat.
Nary: Well, because the building has a plat that was submitted for this
application reflects buildings on lots 2, 3, and 4 and 2 buildings on lot 1. That
they for the Final Plat for the City Council they simply amend that plat site plan to
reflect what the buildings are. The intention was that the building on lot 1 would
be one building, not two buildings that look like they’re abutting each other.
Borup: So, re-label that –
Nary: Just re-label it.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting
June 7, 2001
Page 51
Borup: Either that or remove the buildings.
Nary: Well, it looks like they want to build that building. They just want to build
the one building and not make it look like two buildings. I think that was all—
Centers: I would second that motion.
Borup: Motion is second. Any discussion? All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Borup: Do we have a motion to adjourn?
Nary: It’s only 9:15. I think we could (inaudible).
Centers: Don’t we have something more?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission members)
Shreeve: I’ll make a motion to adjourn.
Nary: Second.
Borup: Motion is second to adjourn. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:18 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
KEITH BORUP, CHAIRMAN
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK