2001 12-06 SpecialMeridian Planning and Zoning Commission December 6, 2001
Special Comprehensive Plan Meeting
The special meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission was called to
order at 6:00 P.M. on Thursday December 6, 2001 by Chairman Keith Borup.
Members Present: Keith Borup, Sally Norton, Bill Nary, Keven Shreeve, and Jerry
Centers.
Others Present: Larry Moore, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Bruce Freckleton, David McKinnon,
Tom Kuntz, and Will Berg.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
X Sally Norton X Jerry Centers
X Bill Nary X Keven Shreeve
X Chairman Keith Borup
Borup: -- to begin our special meeting. Can we get the Commissioner’s attention? Okay.
This is a special meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission pertaining to
proposed amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian. I might just
mention that our regular scheduled Planning and Zoning meeting starts at 7:00. There
was a reporter did have an article in the paper where he put the wrong time down. So, if
anyone’s here for any of the regular agenda items, that meeting starts at 7:00. This is
an open meeting, so you’re welcome to stay but our subject will be finalizing our
Comprehensive Plan. Before we get into that we also are going to be getting a little bit
of information on the Parks Master Plan. It's a Comprehensive Plan Parks and
Recreation System Plan. We’d like to take the roll first. Those in attendance this
evening are Commissioner Norton, Commissioner Centers, Commissioner Nary,
Commissioner Shreeve, and Commissioner Borup.
Item 2. Brief Presentation of the Action Plan for the Comprehensive Parks
and Recreation System Plan by Tom Kuntz, Parks and Recreation
Director:
Borup: As I started to say, we had a short presentation on the Parks Plan. I’d like to
start with Parks Director Tom Kuntz.
Kuntz: You don’t mind if stand up do you?
Borup: No. We’d like that. We need you on your microphone anyway. Does everyone
have their copy from the --?
Kuntz: I know you have a full agenda in front of you tonight. So, I’ll keep this very brief.
To give you a brief background. We hired a consultant a little over a year ago to
complete the first ever Parks and Recreation Comprehensive Plan. At the completion of
that, it's included in this envelope here, which you have not seen yet. We did not feel
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 2
like we had anything that would take us anywhere, give us any clear direction on action
for the coming 5 or 6 years. So, we went back out and hired a second consultant to put
together an action plan that you should have in front of you tonight. We finished it up
last month. The last chapter is a capital improvement plan, a 6-year plan which we need
to have by state law to change any impact fees. That was the last component that we
finished up. We would like to come back to you on the 20th
of this month for a Public
Hearing on this action plan. We do plan on meeting with the BCA and the Realtor’s
Association to get their input on this plan. As well as we will put in your box a
Comprehensive Plan from the first go around. I will warn you though it's very dry but we
will make some sets of those up and get them to you so you can see them. There's
been some discussions on how we should proceed with this. The consensus has been
that we go ahead and approve the original Comprehensive Plan with the action plan
overriding any kind of, when there's any loggerheads in the 2 plans. We are certainly
open to suggestions from the Planning and Zoning Commission on how to handle this.
But, we do want to move ahead in the next 30 to 60 days with trying to get this adopted.
I stand for any questions.
Borup: Any questions from the Commission?
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: Mr. Kuntz, has the Parks and Recreation Board, have the reviewed that as well?
Kuntz: Yes sir.
Nary: Have they made a recommendation?
Kuntz: They were intricately involved in actually putting it together and they have
approved it in its present form.
Nary: One of the things I heard you say, and I appreciate your wanting to bring it before
us to review but is there a lot of discrepancies or inconsistencies between the
Comprehensive Plan that you have and the action plan that you would like?
Kuntz: No there are not.
Nary: Okay. Would there be some reference as to what those are so that if a person
were to read that they would know this is what's controlling here? Is there some
reference in the document or something?
Kuntz: I will go through the original document and highlight those so you can see what
they are. The other question that we had, and we were in the process of developing this
action plan as the City’s Comprehensive Plan revision was being formulated and met
with the consultant who put together our revised City Comprehensive Plan and wanted
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 3
to make sure that when this document was done and reviewed and approved that it
would dovetail into the plan that you folks have been reviewing over the last months.
We feel that it compliments the existing plan and the existing revised plan didn’t go into
a lot of detail because they knew this plan would supplement that portion of the City’s
Comprehensive revised Plan. I hope that’s not too confusing.
Centers: Mr. Kuntz, you’re going to meet with the BCA and --?
Kuntz: The Realtor’s Association.
Centers: Prior to our meeting on the 20th
?
Kuntz: Well, I’m hoping to meet with the BCA on the 17th
. I don’t have a date and I
understand I’m set on that date. If the Commission feels like that’s too quick, I guess I
was anticipating that even if we have a Public Hearing on the 20th
, that’s probably not
the last go around that we’re going to have. But at least lets get the ball rolling and get -
-.
Centers: Because I heard you say in passing impact fees. I’m sure that’s the topic of the
meeting, correct?
Kuntz: No. The meeting actually is to let them review this action plan. We want to get
that on the radar screen first. Then when we have our ducks in a row, we plan on going
out to ask for an increase in impact fees.
Centers: To pay for the items in the action plan?
Kuntz: The capital improvement plan actually is based upon our current level of impact
fees. But, we will be showing what the increased level would do for us.
Centers: More parks?
Kuntz: Well, we feel like there's good justification when Boise City has a certain impact
fee that our impact fee is about $200.00 away from that but yet it costs us the same
amount of money to do business here in Meridian as it does in Boise. I don’t know if I’ll
get support for that theory but that’s what we’re moving ahead with.
Centers: I understand. Very good.
Anderson: Mr. Chairman. I just had another question, Mr. Kuntz. Maybe it isn’t that
important. I understand in the implementation or creation of these plans as to why they
would be 2 different documents. Now at the juncture to move forward from the public
standpoint, wouldn’t it be simpler to make them into 1 document? So that people aren’t
confused between the 2. One is basically an overall Comprehensive Plan and one is
how to implement the things in it. Wouldn’t it just be simpler to incorporate them in one?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 4
Kuntz: Commissioner Nary. We’ll certainly look at that and see if we can’t do that. But,
you’re right it's going to be a lot less confusing. I guess the thing we were wrestling with
is, and I’ve spent hours reading this, our Commission has looked it over. We have
asked the Council to look it over. It's very, very dry. What we were trying to do is figure
out a way maybe what we do is the action plan comes first because this is really the
meat and potatoes of where we’re going the next 6 years.
Nary: Sure.
Kuntz: But, I think your suggestion of melting them all in one document would probably
be very wise.
Nary: I guess my feeling is simply it would just be less confusing. Honestly I think
they’re all pretty dry. So, I don’t think it matters that much to put them in one.
Kuntz: Right.
Borup: Okay. Thank you Mr. Kuntz.
Kuntz: Thank you for you time.
Borup: We look for that next meeting.
Item 3. Proposed Amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of
Meridian:
Borup: Okay, Commissioners. At our last meeting we had asked Mr. Hawkins-Clark to
compile a list of the comments and motions that we had made up to this point on the
Comprehensive Plan. I think you have that in front of you. Sally has also provided a
couple of other things I think that we had discussed. We need to take a look to see how
those 2 mesh. I don’t know if –
Norton: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Norton.
Norton: If you wouldn’t mind. I would like to go over my comments. Everybody has a
copy and I think staff has a copy. I had gone through the minutes and picked out the
topics. They were on several different pages and tried to conform them to the areas that
we still need to deal with. I noticed a few minutes ago we were given Brad’s list. So, I’m
going through that also. I think we’re really close to making a final recommendation.
Borup: Do we want to have Brad do a short summary of what he’s prepared? Do we
want to just go on and discuss that? What would be your preference?
Norton: A summary would be good since we just received it.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 5
Borup: Okay. I don’t know if I had mentioned, this is a continuation of our Public Hearing
on the Comprehensive Plan amendment. The public testimony portion has been closed.
This is the continuation of the deliberations. Mr. Hawkins-Clark, would you like to --?
Hawkins-Clark: Chairman Borup, thank you. Members of the Commission, my apologies
for your tardy receipt of that. Maybe the easiest thing for me to do is just to kind of walk
down through it since I’m sure you haven't had a chance to read it. Essentially there's 2
main sections of the memo. The first bold one there is Comprehensive Plan
amendment motions made to date. This simply is pointing out that you have made sub-
motions to this point, I guess is one way to put it. You did those at 2 different meetings.
There on the September 27th
, you made one formal sub motion. That was to eliminate
the Urban Service Planning Area boundary on the future land use map as a separate
line. Again, some of this, this motion is capturing the essence of what your motion was.
I read into the minutes there that the line shall be identical to the area of impact line.
Then the paragraph on page 84 of the bounded plan there is what referred to that line in
the text. So, what we talked about last time is so you have the line on the map and you
said to take that off and then we have the text policies that referred to that. So, of
course if you’re going to take it off the map, then you’ve got to amend the policies in the
text. The next paragraph there is essentially my attempt to put what you had in about 25
pages of minutes into 15 lines. This would essentially omit the paragraph on page 84
that refers to the Urban Service Planning Area and then replace it with this. It would
also refer to your discussion at your November 15th
meeting, your last meeting where
no sub-motion was made. However you did talk primarily about this issue of City owned
services. That was a result of BCA’s memo primarily referring to their concerns about
the language of City owned. I took your comments from that meeting about the City
owned services. From the September 27th
meeting and incorporated them there in that
paragraph. Certainly if you want to make changes to that now, or if you want to just go -
-. I can read through it. Whatever your preference is there.
Norton: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Norton.
Norton: Brad, I think you’ve done a wonderful job. When I was reading through the
minutes, it was mentioned --. There were 2 things that were mentioned that might be in
consideration. One is that possible language could include that the City may take over
water and services, sewer services at a later date, which you have. Then it was
suggested maybe homeowner’s associations may want to notify potential homeowners
that there may be additional costs to them if and when the City takes over the water and
sewer services. That could just be understood or spelled out. I don’t know if this was a
comment from Bruce, but it was suggested that wells, the private wells be built to City
municipal standards. Is that something that we should include?
Hawkins-Clark: Staff’s in agreement with that, certainly.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 6
Norton: So, at the end of your first page, adopt your language but with an additional
sentence to say it is suggested that wells be, or private wells be built to City municipal
standards?
Hawkins-Clark: Right.
Borup: Wouldn’t we want to include more than just wells. I’m looking, three fourths of
the way down. It says if private utilities are constructed and add it in at that point?
Norton: Yes. It sounds good.
Borup: Then it wouldn’t need to be –
Hawkins-Clark: Chairman Borup, right. So it would be if private utilities are constructed
it will be the City’s policy that said private services revert --. That sentence?
Borup: Well, yes. We’re saying that they will need to be –
Hawkins-Clark: -- constructed to City standards.
Borup: Maybe some stronger --. I’m not sure exact language there.
Hawkins-Clark: Again, I was taking the emphasis that you wanted this to be a guide
only to really step back and not –
Borup: Right.
Hawkins-Clark: -- have this be hard and fast policy.
Borup: Definitely.
Hawkins-Clark: so, I didn’t want to --.
Borup: But, I think we also want to let the people know that if something’s done, it
needs to be to a standard that the City could take over and not have to go in and
rebuild.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Nary: Mr. Chairman. I would agree. I think what the intent of what we were discussing
was that the City would have the preference, the City obviously has the option to accept
that. But, you’re right it probably is not, it's not a negative to at least include in the
document that all of those things would again have to be to a standard that the City
would be able to accept it in the future. Again, I still think it still leaves the flexibility that
we’re trying to seek but at least setting some guideline.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 7
Borup: Right. The policy still is we want it to be annexed and City services. This opens
up to those few –
Nary: It wouldn’t make any sense in the future if the City does allow private
development and a private utility service to be built. Then to have it totally incompatible
with the City system so that either the City can’t take it over or the cost is so prohibitive
it wouldn’t make a lot of sense. That something that I think you can put in some
language –
Borup: Do we have some suggested wording for that?
Nary: I guess I was thinking that what you said sounded fine.
Norton: Just –
Borup: Probably the same thing you said towards the well, only have that apply to –
Norton: Right after the one, two, three. If you count up form the bottom where it says
private services, fourth line. Private services be built to the City municipal standards and
could revert to the City upon --
Centers: Mr. Chairman.
Norton: -- future annexation.
Centers: Mr. Chairman. I have a question for Bruce. I think it's south Boise. What's the
situation if another water company comes in and they all get hooked up to ABC Water
Company and we can’t demand them to hookup to Meridian City water, can we?
Freckleton: Commissioner Centers. The situation that you speak of is a real possibility.
Centers: South Boise, isn’t it?
Freckleton: Well, north Meridian right now, we have City of Meridian water mains on one
side of Ustick Road and United Water’s on the other. I don’t think there's anything that
stops them from just, moving right along.
Centers: The question may be for our attorney. Then we go in with our water lines; we
can force them to hookup to our water, even though they’re on United Water? We lay a
line right along side of them?
Borup: I think that’s what we don’t want to see happen.
Moore: Chairman Borup, Commissioner Centers. If I could interrupt here for a second.
Borup: Go ahead.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 8
Moore: I happen to have lived in an area which was recently annexed by the City of
Boise. We were on United Water service. At the point of annexation, those services
went back to Boise and my bills then came from Boise, not from United Water.
Centers: So, did they acquire the United Water lines?
Moore: That’s correct.
Centers: Did the City of Boise have to buy them?
Moore: I can’t answer you that. I just know that homeowners immediately –
Centers: United Water didn’t give it up for nothing.
Moore: I’m sure they didn’t give it up for nothing but they still went onto the Boise City
services.
Freckleton: If I could clarify one point there. United Water contracts with the City of
Boise. United Water provides service in the City of Boise.
Borup: That’s what I was going to say.
Freckleton: So, you’re still with United Water whether you’re in the county or you’re in
the City.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: I had understood United Water did all of Boise, except for, well there's a little
small little independent water companies in Boise too.
Centers: Well, I guess the fact is that you could have 2 water lines, either across the
street from each other or side-by-side.
Freckleton: Absolutely.
Nary: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Nary.
Nary: Correct me if I’m wrong, what we’re talking about here is the potential for future
development in the area of impact. What the reality is is that where this comes into play
in the Comprehensive Plan is that a person is making an application to build some
project and to be annexed into the City. Currently what the Comprehensive Plan and the
City’s policy has been is unless they can be hooked up to the City water and sewer
system, we’re not going to annex you at all. We’re not going to talk to you any further.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 9
The intent in creating and changing the language and stating that we have a preference
now, is saying, okay we’ll annex you--. We may consider annexing you. I’m going to just
leave it as a hypothetical. We’re going to consider annexing you and your project if it's
to the benefit of the City of Meridian may have to have a private sewer system or
private septic sort of system for 5 years because we won't have a sewer line to you for
5 years. But, we’re going to accept you as an annexation, the consideration is that
we’re going to get that sewer line out there to you in 5 years. We’re going to allow that
septic system to work for 5 years but you’re going to hook up to our sewer once we get
it to you in 5 years, 10 years or whatever it is. I guess I don’t see it as a --. I guess I
don’t see the discussion that we’re having as a big issues. All we’re telling these folks is
if we’re going to allow you to build that private system, that private system is going to
have a sunset to it. You’re going to hook up to our system when you do it. All of that is
a consideration for us to annex you. I guess I’m not sure if Commissioner Centers is
really going to end up being a real concern in the future because all of that, is the whole
thing is coming and saying we want to be part of your City or we want to be annexed
into the City but we can’t get a line out to you right now. So, we may allow that but it's
going to have a sunset. It's going to have an ending time. In exchange for that is we’re
going to annex you. Am I wrong? Isn’t that what we were talking about.
Hawkins-Clark: the situations that potentially could come is when a property comes in
with a proposal, or an applicant comes in with a proposal and the property is not
annexable. It is not contiguous to the City limits. It's out there a mile and a half away
from the City limits. We’ve seen how many of those probably in this year? Several, four
or five. Some of those are getting pretty darn close to services from our neighbor to the
east.
Borup: But, they’re in our area of impact. They’re in our area of impact.
Centers: Exactly.
Shreeve: Is what you would have is you’d have a development come in --. Of course
you used sewer but using water as an example. A development comes in, wants water
system or needs a water system. They say hey, well we’ve got United Water that can
provide that can provide this for us. I guess the question is, can the City of Meridian
with their sunset, like you were talking about say hey, 5, 10 years when we finally get
water out there and United has of course made the initial thrust in there providing this
development with water. Can we take that water system over then, or purchase it? I
would think you might need to purchase it or do something to that effect. Does the City
of Meridian --. I would think that City of Meridian would at least want that option of
purchasing it and bringing it onto the City water system as opposed to from the very
beginning not allowing that option. I think we’re headed in the right direction.
Hawkins-Clark: I guess I have some reservations with that because I don’t know that it's
possible. I think once a utility is in and they’re servicing, --.
Shreeve: You’re done.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 10
Hawkins-Clark: -- I think it's done. I mean, I guess legal counsel could maybe clarify this
but I think once an area is served by a utility it's going to be pretty hard to tell them sorry
you’ve got to disconnect and hook up to us.
Borup: I think that is a little bit more of a problem. I visualized more a development
putting their own well in. then the City can come out and take over the well.
Hawkins-Clark: Right.
Borup: tie their system in with the rest. That would be much easier to do.
Nary: Mr. Chairman, I think that’s what we were talking about in preference. Not that
they would hook up to United Water because they’re on the east edge of our area of
impact and they’re hooked up to United Water and the Boise City sewer. That’s not
what we’re talking about.
Borup: No.
Nary: I mean, we’re talking about a private --. At least considering. Really that’s I guess
I can’t emphasis it enough. All we’re talking about is considering privatized option. We
may not want it. It may not fit what we need, but all we’re doing is considering it. I
couldn’t ever foresee this Commission or the Council ever saying oh, you can hook up
to the other city’s water and sewer system. When you come out, we'll go ahead and
annex you. I mean, it's just not likely to happen. That’s never going to (inaudible).
Borup: That’s not what I was (inaudible).
Centers: I think you’ve got to say that too. I think you’ve got to say that you discourage
privatization because you’re opening up a Pandora’s box for developers to put in their
water system and their sewage system. There's numerous individual sewage systems
in south Boise. Wait a minute. You’re asking them to do that and then when they
become contiguous --.
Nary: Well, we’re not asking them. They’re –
Centers: You’re not asking them, you’re allowing them. I think your language better say
discourage --. I see where you’re coming from Commissioner Nary. You want to be able
to consider those. I agree with that but I think you better be careful with your language
because it might open a Pandora’s box.
Borup: Doesn’t this still cover it? The sentence says Meridian desires all development to
be served with urban services.
Nary: I think all we’re trying to do Commissioner Centers is make sure that we just leave
that flexibility --.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 11
Borup: Then it says the City may consider applications.
Nary: It's always in the City’s --.
Centers: If they had their own services, why would they want to be annexed? That’s the
normal reason to be annexed, is to get the City water and sewer.
Borup: Because they’re not going to get our approval.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Centers: Fire, they’ve got rural.
Borup: But they’re still in our area of impact. They still need to --.
Centers: They might get a few dollars off their annual fire insurance bill and that would
be it.
Borup: Okay.
Centers: It's not a big thing to be annexed if you can’t get City services. I just don’t --.
Borup: Are we comfortable with this, the way this paragraph is written?
Norton: I am.
Borup: With adding the clause to be built to City municipal standards as approved by
Meridian Public Works department.
Hawkins-Clark: Chairman Borup. On the end of the first sentence, Bruce has suggested
there that we add from the City of Meridian. Just to clarify the City of Meridian, the City
of Meridian desires all development within the --.
Borup: urban services from the City of Meridian, or provided by or something. The main
distinction there is the Ada County’s definition of urban, I think their word is municipal.
Their definition of municipal services says it's either a City or a separate private sewer
district. That's their definition of municipal, which I believe they only tie it to wastewater.
I don’t believe that they define their municipal in any other way other than to say that it's
wastewater oriented. That would be --. If you’re comfortable with that. So, it would be
those 2 changes then, from the City of Meridian?
Borup: Yes. I’m just trying to see where that needs to be inserted in.
Hawkins-Clark: At the end of the first sentence.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 12
Norton: The end of the first sentence.
Borup: Yes, I understand. I’ve got that on that one.
Hawkins-Clark: I’m sorry Chairman.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: After private services and before revert?
Hawkins-Clark: Right.
Norton: Could revert to City (inaudible).
Borup: It would be the City’s policy that private services be built --. Okay.
Hawkins-Clark: To City of Meridian standards.
Borup: Yes.
Norton: And may revert to the City upon future annexation.
Centers: Why would you say may? Why can’t you say will?
Borup: Maybe we don’t want them.
Norton: Okay, will is fine.
Borup: I guess (inaudible). Okay.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Hawkins-Clark: At the top of page 2, if you want me to continue. There is a reference
there to deleting page 7 of attachment B, which if you don’t have it in front of you is
essentially that entire page dealt with the urban service planning area. The timing, the
application process, all of that. Then, continuing on the motions that you’ve already
made. At your November 1st
meeting, you had that mixed-use motion to modify the
definition of mixed-use. To omit the requirement that a minimum of 2 different be
provided for all developments on parcels over 5 acres in size.
Borup: Change that to should and encourage?
Hawkins-Clark: Right.
Borup: Rather than must.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 13
Hawkins-Clark: I’m sorry I didn’t put that in there. I think there's 3 or 4 instances where
we used the word require or will on that mixed-use. So, we’ll just change that to
encourage so that if they’re within a mixed-use area. They come into the City. We’re still
keeping the requirement that a Conditional Use Permit for all of those and then omitting
the two uses. Then changing to encouragement language.
Borup: Okay.
Hawkins-Clark: That would change the mixed-use. On the land use map, you had those
five changes there.
Borup: I think everybody was clear on that.
Hawkins-Clark: Clear on those?
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Hawkins-Clark: On the neighborhood centers, motion. Give you a chance to read
through that. If there are any changes --.
Centers: It looks good.
Hawkins-Clark: So, we will essentially take that neighborhood centers paragraph on
page eight of the attachment B and insert this new language so that will also be revised
in that June 1st
memo. Then just that last element there about the proposed language is
just a reference back to the paragraph we just talked about. So, we’ll no longer have
that requirement for City owned sewer and water.
Norton: Mr. Chairman.
Borup: Commissioner Norton.
Norton: I have a regarding, on page three, the very last sentence. Staff requests that
the 6-1-01 staff memo with changes to the USPA, mixed-use, and neighborhood center
section be incorporated into the Commissioner’s final motion. We’re talking about this
document with all the attachments, et cetera, et cetera?
Hawkins-Clark: Correct.
Norton: Okay. Could you kind of explain that because this is really a complicated
document?
Hawkins-Clark: Sure, Commissioner Norton, Members of the Commission. Specifically,
I’m sorry for the vagueness. I was referring to just the attachment B only of that June 1st
packet. I believe there are nine pages to this attachment. I’m sorry, 11.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 14
Centers: There's 11 Brad.
Hawkins-Clark: 11 pages, right. It's those that really go through the grammatical
elements of the text and the policies. That did not get any previous discussion by the
Commission. That’s the only thing that I’m referring to. I believe the two paragraphs that
were of the most concern to the public, to BCA, to the Realtor’s Association we have
through this memo that I just gave you tonight, we’ve changed those. I’m specifically
referring to on page seven which has all the definitions about urban service planning
area as well as the last bullet on page six referring to adjacency there. That last item on
page six, all of page seven and those two bullets on page eight. All of that would be
deleted from this memo. Everything else would be incorporated. Then on page eight,
then that neighborhood center section there most of that paragraph I felt was probably
still accurate other than we were going to replace the requirement language for those
neighborhood centers with this new proposed language about changing them to mixed-
use. Then on page nine, that was the mixed-use section that I gave you in the memo
today about modifying that mixed-use language. Other than that I’m just asking that all
of those grammatical things that the chart and the COMPASS language be incorporated
into a final motion.
Norton: What about the glossary of terms?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes, Commissioner Norton. I did see that you referenced that on your
memo including the glossary of terms. Shari Stiles has been the one that was asked to
work on that. She said that she’s still in the process if finishing that but will have it prior
to the City Council meeting. If that’s something that you want prior to your final motion,
we can’t provide that tonight.
Borup: Did we have some specific questions in the glossary?
Norton: No, I think just to include all those is fine.
Borup: Wasn’t the glossary in your attachment B? That page one and two? Am I looking
at a different page one and two?
Norton: You’re looking at a different one and two.
Hawkins-Clark: -- looking at the right one.
Borup: No, it's a different one. Sorry.
Norton: The glossary of terms is in that same memo dated June 1, 2001. It’s not
attachment B but it's called glossary of terms. It's in the same letter. That would be fine
with me Brad because those are those --. Unless there's some terms that are not on
there. Maybe they could go to you and say they want additional terms defined. That
would be fine with me. Anybody else?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 15
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Centers: In fact, you have Commissioner Norton’s memo brad?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes.
Centers: I don’t know if we need a motion. Items three, four, five, and six I think they’re
very clear and could be incorporated. They’re kind of cleanup issues which was
Commissioner Norton’s good job in putting those in front of us.
Hawkins-Clark: Yes, I agree.
Centers: I don’t think we need a motion for that. Do we?
Hawkins-Clark: For what? I’m sorry.
Centers: Three, four, five, and six? Just a reminder when you do the final draft before it
goes to Council, to clean up those areas.
Hawkins-Clark: we can certainly take this and make those changes. Yes.
Centers: Item two, I don’t know. You may want to –
Norton: We haven't even discussed item two, transportation of air quality from
COMPASS. These were items strictly in the minutes that we discussed.
Hawkins-Clark: I did provide the comments from COMPASS on that. Is that what you’re
referring to Commissioner Norton?
Norton: Yes. Do you think we need to discuss that Brad?
Hawkins-Clark: I don’t. That’s also in the June –
Norton: Right, okay.
Hawkins-Clark: Yes. I just wanted to clarify their recommendations aren’t just in the
minutes.
Norton: Right, okay.
Hawkins-Clark: That we had detailed those out.
Nary: They’re in the June 1st
memo too bradded. Is that what you’re saying? Or the
June 28th
or the August 9th
--.
Norton: September 25th
.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 16
Hawkins-Clark: Those are in the September 25, the September 25 memo from Steve
and I. You had their original letter. I believe COMPASS’s original letter was to the
Commission and I was just simply taking those out and putting them in that September
25th
.
Nary: Basically on page three of that September 25 memo, is what you’re talking about
Brad?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes. The top portion of page three.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Nary: So, just incorporating this is another recommendation going forward to City
Council to evaluate for inclusion. Do you think that’s sufficient?
Hawkins-Clark: Commissioner Nary. Now that I look at it, the majority of those
transportation air quality items on page three there at the top do come from the Ada
County Highway District not the COMPASS. The COMPASS there is just that number
five. I guess I would recommend just referencing the COMPASS letter dated June 25th
,
not our memo dated September 25th
.
Borup: Okay. Does somebody have that written?
Nary: Just this number five is really what we’re talking about?
Hawkins-Clark: Yes.
Nary: Okay.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: Okay. Do we have any other questions on it? Any other discussion we needed to
go over on a proposed motion? IF we’re ready I recommend we probably want to do
that, continue this until the end of our regular Planning and Zoning meeting. That might
give a little bit of time. It looks like we do have time for a short break. Maybe if it's a
motion it could be closed at that time? If the Commissioners would like. Do we have any
other discussion you think we need to go over? Any of the things we talked about?
Does it look like we’ve covered everything Brad?
Hawkins-Clark: I believe so.
Borup: Okay.
Norton: Thank you Brad for getting these things. It makes it really clear on what motion
we’re going to do later on tonight.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 17
Borup: Thank you. Commissioners, believe it or not --. I didn’t think we were going to
get through this in the time we had. We could take a short break if someone would like
to so move.
Nary: Mr. Chairman. I would move that we continue this special meeting until the end of
our regular meeting agenda for this evening and take up the Comprehensive Plan at the
end of our regular meeting. So, I just move to continue this to the end of our meeting.
Norton: I second.
Borup: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: Okay. Thank you. This concludes this portion of our special meeting on Meridian
Comprehensive Plan. The regular Planning and Zoning meeting will start at 7:00. We’ll
take a short break until then.
RECONVENED AT 12:34 P.M.
Borup: Okay. Do we have a motion to reconvene? Do we need a motion?
Shreeve: I make a motion to reconvene the special meeting for the Comprehensive
Plan.
Borup: I think we’re waiting for a –
Norton: I second.
Borup: Motion is second. All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: We had a motion ready to be made. Commissioner Nary stepped out shortly.
(Commissioner Nary Leaves)
Norton: I do have a motion ready to be made but were we waiting for the rest of our
Commissioners. I just have a couple of questions from staff. Dave, earlier Bruce had
mentioned about a letter from COMPASS dated, I believe it was the first of June. I’ve
looked through all my things and I can’t find that letter.
McKinnon: Bruce mentioned that?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 18
Norton: Bruce, or excuse me, Brad mentioned that and it's also mentioned in the
September 25th
memo of staff on page three because it was on number six. It was
something that Brad wanted us to include in the motion but I don’t see dirt ordinance
mentioned anywhere on page 26 of the draft Comprehensive Plan. I’m just going to
suggest if City Council wants to add that, they can add it at a later date.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: He was just here for that. The other thing I wanted to mention. I talked to Mr.
Kuntz. They were asking if there's going to be anything in conflict with the Parks
Comprehensive Plan and what we arte about ready to recommend approval of. He said
a couple items that was on some park locations. I suggested that perhaps that that gets
included on the land use map before it goes to City Council so we don’t have to do a
revision. I’ve got those items if you’d like.
Norton: What are they real quick?
Borup: Well, it's south of Victory. They’re showing, I believe our present location shows
two park locations. They’re looking at changing one to a neighborhood park. It's on the
thing that he gave us.
Nary: It's on the plan that you have. (inaudible) or no one has adopted yet.
Borup: Right, but the locations are. No but we’re talking about adding it to this so that
they get on --. So that the two land use maps jive.
Nary: Mr. Kuntz couldn’t wait until today to tell us this instead of coming a month ago?
Centers: That’s what irritates (inaudible).
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: What they’ve done is they moved the location of one of them and they changed
one from a larger park to a smaller neighborhood park. It's very minor. Then this one
just moved the next mile over. If that’s all right. That’s what the staff was going to go
ahead and incorporate those in on the land use.
Nary: That’s fine, include them.
Centers: HE wanted us to consider this at our next meeting?
Borup: Yes. I suggested we get it on the map now rather than --
Centers: At 6:00 like we have been or –
Borup: Right.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 19
Centers: Is he buying the Blimpie's?
Borup: Yes. Somebody is, I’m assuming.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: I think that ought to be the Parks Department.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Centers: I didn’t think we were going to have to meet again on the comp plan.
Borup: No, we’re done with the comp plan after this motion. This next one will be on the
Parks Comp plan. That’s a whole new thing. We’re starting all over.
Shreeve: Frankly because it's the holiday, I’d like to have just one more hour home.
Lets do this in January, personally.
Borup: Okay. We already noticed –
Shreeve: did we?
Borup: Isn’t the meeting already noticed?
Centers: The park plan?
Nary: That’s too bad then.
Borup: It was announced but maybe not legally noticed. Okay, we’ll have to check on
that then.
Centers: I tend to agree with Keven.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: I didn’t think the park one was going to take more than one meeting.
Nary: How long is the December 20th
agenda right now?
Borup: It was short but we’ve added a couple of things.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Nary: It is long?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 20
McKinnon: It's not extraordinarily –
*** End of Side One ***
Borup: About a normal meeting?
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: I didn’t remember seeing anything too controversial on it.
Nary: Right now Mr. Kuntz’s expectation is that we’re going to meet at 6:00 on the 20th
to discuss his park plan that he’s waited this long to bring forward. Then we would go
into our regular meeting at 7:00?
Borup: Well, he brought it up at our last meeting.
Centers: I don’t remember that.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: Right. I mean, he mentioned at the last meeting and we said –
Norton: I need some clarification. Are we supposed to include this comp plan with the
comp plan that we’ve been dealing with for --.
Borup: No. It’s not going to affect that.
Nary: This is just the new.
Borup: This is a new one in addition to –
Norton: So, they have their own comp plan?
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: They feel they need a public hearing on that.
Norton: How about after January have the Public Hearing?
Borup: That’s up to this Commission. Except, two of you are voting on something you
don’t have to worry about.
Shreeve: I’d like to postpone it to January.
Centers: Did anyone hear my question? Why can’t their Parks and Recreation
Commissioners hold Public Hearings and do their comp plan that they have?
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 21
Borup: I think I asked that question once already.
Nary: He said they’ve already approved it. They helped draft it and then they approved
it.
Borup: But they didn’t have a Public Hearing.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
McKinnon: Idaho Code requires that the Comprehensive Plan take into account Parks
and Recreation.
Centers: You just said it was separate from the comp plan.
McKinnon: This is part of the Comprehensive Plan.
Nary: Yes and no. It says the Comprehensive Plan has to include parks. What he’s
doing which is good. I don’t want to be negative. I mean it's good. But it's not part of the
Meridian City Comprehensive Plan. It's the Parks Comprehensive Plan. It doesn’t have
to be, at least by ordinance, I don’t think it has to be heard by this Commission. It can
be but I don’t disagree with Commissioner Centers. I think the Parks and Recreation
Commission can handle Public Hearing. I mean, they can do that. Maybe no one told
them that but they can have a public Hearing.
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Nary –
Norton: A little louder. We can hardly hear you.
McKinnon: Okay, sorry. I would defer to legal counsel to determine whether or not
you’re required to have a Public Hearing in front of the Planning and Zoning, in the
parks department, parks commission. Is that what they are? Parks and Rec
Commission or in front of this board.
Moore: Without further study I can’t give you an answer.
McKinnon: Okay.
Moore: Off the top of my head, I’d say no.
McKinnon: Okay.
Borup: So we can make a motion for them to hold their own Public Hearing and send
the recommendation to us if it meets with City code. If it doesn’t then –
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 22
Borup: Then we’ll have to do our own. Can we combine all of that in one motion.
Nary: I don’t know that we’d need to make a motion.
Berg: Yes, you can only recommend to City Council (inaudible).
Nary: We can’t direct the parks commission to do anything. What we can do is say
we’re not going to schedule this on our agenda until the City attorney determines that
we have to. Otherwise, our recommendation would be to the parks director that he has
the Parks and Recreation Commission hold a Public Hearing.
Centers: Do it themselves.
Nary: Then they make their recommendation to the City Council.
Centers: So, one of you folks can relay that.
Nary: that would be in my motion. That we not schedule this on the agenda that we
contact the parks director, that we ask our City attorney to provide us with a legal
opinion if we’re required to hear this Comprehensive Plan for the parks department. If
we are, then we’ll schedule it. If we aren’t, then we would recommend to Mr. Kuntz that
he have the Parks and Recreation Commission hold a Public Hearing and make their
recommendation.
Borup: Directly to City Council. Not even reviewed by us.
Nary: Whatever our City attorney says.
Borup: Okay.
McKinnon: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. I’ll go ahead and do that. I’ll
send an email to the City attorney’s office tomorrow for legal opinion. Once I’ve got the
legal opinion I will contact the parks director if that’s okay with you.
Nary: That’s great.
Borup: I’m assuming we would have the option to review that if we so choose too.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: Don’t we need to say that now?
Nary: I think what we’ll do is simply get our City attorney to give us some idea on
process --.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 23
Borup: Okay.
Nary: How to get that accomplished.
Borup: I think in the mean time –
Nary: But also leaving open the fact that we may want, the Commission may want to
review that.
Borup: In the mean time, we’ve got copies. Maybe we ought to take a quick look
through and see if there's anything that bothers us and speak up then.
Nary: At least reserve the ability of this Commission to hear it if they want to and to
provide up further input.
Borup: Okay. That concludes the business.
Norton: Was that a motion?
Borup: Oh, I’m sorry.
Nary: Actually it was a director to the City attorney office and Dave is going to follow up
with that. So I don’t know (inaudible).
Borup: All right. We’re not done. I’m sorry.
(inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: We still have –
Nary: The real one.
Borup: We still have the real motion to --. I mean, this is what we’ve been waiting for all
night.
Centers: All year.
Norton: Okay. I’ve sort of taken the liberty to write down a few notes. I did mention to
Dave, because Brad had suggested that we incorporate a certain paragraph from the
COMPASS letter. That was in our September 25th
letter. I don’t have a copy of that
letter. I don’t want to make that recommendation. All it is is changing air quality
language on page 29 of the draft Comprehensive Plan to have COMPASS’s wording.
Well, I think if City Council wants to do that, they can do it. So, I’m not going to make
that part of my motion. I think it's a very minor thing.
Centers: Just draw their attention to it.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 24
Norton: City Council can do that. But the rest of my motion has to do with what we all
have discussed tonight. Here it is. I move to recommend to the City Council to approve
the June 2000 draft City of Meridian Comprehensive Plan with the following changes.
Staff memo dated December 5, 2001to include the motion from the September 27th
meeting to eliminate the Urban Service Planning Area boundary line on the future land
use map and insert --. We inserted just a few words. Dave do you want those words
inserted? There's just a few here and a few there.
McKinnon: (inaudible)
Norton: Do you want me to say it on the tape? Okay. All right. So, in the second
paragraph after the motion to eliminate this boundary, on the first sentence the City of
Meridian desires all development within it's area of impact to be served with urban
services from the City of Meridian, period. Then the second to the last sentence, which
starts, if private utilities are constructed it will be the City’s policy that said private
services be built to City Municipal Standards and will revert to the City upon future
annexation.
Borup: I’d mentioned earlier maybe as approved by public works department. Is that
something you would like in there?
Norton: Sure. As approved by the City Works department?
Borup: Public Works.
Norton: Public Works department.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commissioner)
Norton: Okay. On page 2 of the same report, that’s December 5th
. To include the 3
motions that were made in November 1st
and these motions generally regard the mixed-
use not requiring 2 different uses on a parcel over 5 acres. The second motion to
change Montvue from mixed-use, Montvue Subdivision from mixed-use to commercial.
The third motion to provide incentives to encourage neighborhood centers to develop in
mixed-use zones. Then to incorporate from staff’s memo dated June 1, 2001
attachment D. the textual and grammatical issues pages 1 through 6. Delete page 7
and the top of page 8.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commissioner)
Norton: Attachment B, as in boy. Delete page 7 and top of page 8 concerning the
USPA. Eliminate page 9, the last paragraph of page 9 which concerns the mixed-use
guidelines because we changed what those guidelines were. Also to include the list of
acronyms and glossary terms from the June 1st
memo. Finally, to incorporate the items
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 25
1, No. 4, No.5, and No. 6 from the notes compiled by Sally Norton dated 12-6-01.
That’s my motion.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Norton: incorporate all of those.
Centers: You did?
Norton: Yes. Incorporate all of that.
Nary: All of this?
Norton: Yes.
Nary: Okay.
Centers: Yes. I would second.
Borup: Motion is second. Any other discussion? Anything else need to be added?
We’ve got it covered? All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Borup: Thank you Commissioners.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: We did it. We started in June and we’re done in December. Didn’t we start in
June?
Norton: It only took 6 months.
Berg: I appreciate your diligence on this thing because it isn’t an easy task.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Shreeve: Do we get 2 turkeys?
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: Perhaps next time it won't be 7 years between.
Nary: Should we move to adjourn and are we meeting then at 6 or 7 on the 20th
?
Centers: 7:00.
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 26
Nary: 7:00
Norton: 7:00
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Nary: 7:00 it is.
Centers: I second the motion.
Nary: We’ll be adjourned until 7:00 on December 20th
.
Borup: Motion is second. All in favor? Commissioner the next thing that when we
recover then, I would propose that we may look at these hour before meetings when we
get into some ordinance --. We’re looking at some more ordinance changes, some
zoning changes and stuff. That’s got a list that’s been accumulating for a long time. I
would rather do that than a special meeting. How about the rest of you?
Nary: I would too.
Shreeve: To do it in a regular meeting?
Borup: No, an hour before our regular meeting.
Shreeve: Oh, yes.
Borup: A regular meeting would be great but I don’t think it's going to happen.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: They’re much simpler things. I mean, we’re talking –
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Centers: They can be. But if they’re not then we can --
Borup: At this point, it would be more workshop.
Centers: If we knew what they were we could cover them after a meeting if we get done
in time.
Borup: Sure. Yes. I mean, we need to get our list together and we could go either way.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Comprehensive Plan Meeting
December 6, 2001
Page 27
Borup: Well, we’ve got a couple pages of stuff. The first thing we want to do is go down
and prioritize them and decide which ones we want to work on first I would think.
Shreeve: Do 1 at a time sort of thing.
Borup: Some of them we may be able to combine. I mean, it's more ordinance type
stuff.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
Borup: We’ve got the list from them.
Nary: The laundry list.
Borup: Yes. It was things that they probably would have; if they had time they probably
would already have a sample ordinance written. They’re like everything else; you can
only do so much. I would anticipate --. We can go through and see what we want and
then tell them to write it. I think it would get done easier then for them to do it on their
own.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Commission)
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 12:50 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
KEITH BORUP, CHAIRMAN DATE APPROVED
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK