1998 11-10 BITEM NO. 13: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL USE
PERMIT FOR A RETAIL CARPET STORE BY CLAY HARTZ d/b/a FASHION
FLOORS AND INTERIORS –126 KING STREET:
MacCoy: Staff any comments? Item 13.
Stiles: Commissioner Chairman, commissioners we have reviewed the
application and submitted our comments. Everything is pretty standard as far as
the comments. Ordinance requirements, I guess I would like to hear from the
applicants if they have any objections to any of those comments or to Ada
County Highway District that I don’t believe we have in our packet.
MacCoy: Is that it?
Stiles: We have been by the property, I don’t think it’s an inappropriate use for
what is surrounding the area, but it is in old town so it requires a conditional use
permit. Ada County Highway District does have quite an expanse of right-of-way
in front of this property and it’s an unimproved right-of-way. There is also as you
can see from the site plan, there is a ditch running along the property within the
right-of-way. We would still ask that a sidewalk be located along the frontage of
this property, and that coordination with Ada County Highway District take place
to allow that to happen. If the changes that are requested are made, I would
recommend approval of the project.
MacCoy: Bruce do you have anything? Bruce hasn’t anything. Okay, is the
applicant here? Would you please come forward and be sworn in.
CLAY HARTZ, 1700 N. LORRELL, BOISE, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Hartz: Basically I’m just trying to open a carpet store. I’ve been here in Meridian
for four years. We are at 313 W. Cherry Lane right now. It’s a very small facility
that is rented. We are trying to buy this and get a larger show room. We are a
destination business. We do not have posted hours. We are open by
appointment, we are mainly contractor oriented. Do not plan on storing anything
on site. We will show and display our goods there and have clients meet us
there. We have a basic client count of approximately five to seven people per
day that come into our show room.
MacCoy: Commissioners any questions? Mr. Hartz?
Borup: Did you have any comments on the staff comments?
Hartz: We met with the highway department and we are in agreement with
everything that they are recommending. They are recommending that we put a
sidewalk in front and pave our driveway area and the area adjacent to the back,
because we are planning on putting in some parking in there too, to comply with
the handicap access building. I think there is a plan or drawing of what in there
of what we are doing.
Borup: You are going to take care of the gravel walk also?
Hartz: Yeah, we are going to put a concrete in and probably put an entrance on
the back that is handicap accessible(Inaudible) patio there.
Borup: That’s all I have.
MacCoy: Any other commissioner have any questions? Commissioner Nelson
do you have any? Okay. I just got one thing that happened to hit me when I
looked through this, you say you are not going to store anything on your
property, yet you have storage written all over this thing.
Hartz: Well, storage for our—inside the—for our displays and our smaller items.
MacCoy: That type of storage, it’s not rolled carpet.
Hartz: No that’s right, we have offsite storage.
MacCoy: Okay, you can take a seat. Opening the floor now to a public hearing
for anybody who is in favor of this in your community. All right, going to the other
side of the aisle or fence, whatever you want to call it, anybody who would like to
speak negatively on this side of the fence. Okay, come forward.
TIM ZIMMER, WAS SWORN IN BY THE ATTORNEY.
Zimmer: Okay, it’s a residential area that we live in. We want to see it stay as
residential area, it is old town. We have a lot of businesses just a block away on
east 1st
, we get a lot of heavy traffic through this area and there is a lot of kids in
the neighborhood and we just don’t want to see anymore traffic. Just like to see
it not get developed anymore than it already is. We are sitting in a little area
between two main roads, East 1st
and Franklin a lot of big trucks and traffic use.
King and East 2nd
where we live as detours around the main parts of town. We
are just afraid that anymore—allowing any kind of business in there any farther
into the residential area is just going to create more traffic, more problems.
MacCoy: Any questions?
Borup: How far down is your residence from this?
Zimmer: Half a block, a couple of houses and over a ways.
Borup: Your address was?
Zimmer: (Inaudible) E. 2nd
.
Borup: So it’s on the next street.
Zimmer: On the corner of 2nd
and King.
Borup: Okay so it’s the next block over.
Zimmer: Half a block.
MacCoy: Was there anyone else?
LINDA ROBERTS, 133 E. KING, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Roberts: One of the comments other than what Tim had to say is we live just
kitty corner across the street. We are right on the corner of 2nd
and King. The
traffic really is terrible. I’ve been thinking that we need to find a way to get the
trucks to not use that as a detour because it is old town, it is residential right
there. I don’t know how many near accidents and accidents have been right at
that intersection. We have a five year old and I’m very concerned. There are
kids in the neighbor, I’m very concerned about this with having more traffic and
just keeping it residential and keeping it old Meridian. If we are going to go
residential—I mean commercial, maybe we ought to zone it all commercial, but
otherwise, I think we need to keep it residential.
MacCoy: Any questions?
Borup: You mentioned that truck traffic—what type of truck traffic is—just
delivery trucks that type of thing?
Roberts: You name it. There are dump trucks going, not just when they are
doing the road over here. They take detours through there to go up to maybe
Hal’s Meats or not even that…
Borup: So you are talking large trucks, one ton and greater.
Roberts: You name it, instead of diverting from 3rd
, or going up to another, they
use 2nd
.
Borup: Do you believe this application will increase the truck traffic.
Roberts: Well, it would be some, yeah. Not only that, like I said, my child—we
live just across the street, kitty corner just across the street there and the traffic
right now is so bad and the near misses and accidents. The kids can hardly ride
there bikes or anything out there.
Borup: Well, I was trying to get a feel for what this project was going to do for
that truck traffic.
Roberts: I’m just worried that any additional traffic would just be additional to
what we already feel as…
Borup: So your concern would be more about the traffic, not the truck traffic from
this project.
Roberts: Right. Well, traffic in particular, I’m concerned about all the traffic.
Borup: Thank you.
MacCoy: Anyone else, go ahead.
ENO TIDDENS, 213 E. 2ND
STREET, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Tiddens: Well this is definitely an inappropriate use of this property. Right now it
has about a seven year old home on it. It’s a beautiful home with a double
garage, both the back yard and front yard are beautiful landscaped. It’s in a
strictly residential area, there is no other piece of property on East King Street
that is commercial. It’s all residential. The only commercial property close to us
is all on East 1st
Street, which is appropriate. We want to keep commercial out of
there mainly because I feel that it will devaluate my property. Anytime you have
a nice residential and you go putting a retail store in the neighborhood, this
would devaluate it, which is proven by a fact that if you go to sell that house in a
few years, that’s thoroughly one black mark against that house. So you won’t
get as much out of the property as you should because of it going commercial.
That’s my main objection to it. It’s not as much the traffic as it is just—it’ll just
make it a more undesirable place for the people who live there, more noise,
more air pollution and more traffic. Thank you.
MacCoy: Any questions of him before he takes—none okay. Anybody else? Go
ahead lady. Oh, got two ladies went up.
EMMA SCHMIERER, 127 E. KING, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Schmierer: Well, I live right across the street from what came to be a store and I
want to keep it residential. That’s what we need there and want nothing
commercial in there.
MacCoy: Is there anything else you have to offer?
Schmierer: No, I just…
MacCoy: Thank you very much, we understand what you are saying though.
You’re next lady.
TAMMY ZIMMER, 234 E. 2ND
, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Zimmer: My question is basically about sidewalks. Everybody seems to be
concerned about sidewalks. You put sidewalks in front of this, he gets this
residential and you put a sidewalk in front of him, on both sides of him there is no
sidewalks. There is no sidewalk going to East 1st
, there is no sidewalk going to
East 2nd
, all the sidewalks we have now are great big bundles of boulders that
we can’t get nobody to fix anyway. So what is the sense of putting in a sidewalk
one house long?
MacCoy: Okay, let me turn this over to Shari. She has the answer to this.
Stiles: Pedestrian walkways are a requirement of development when any other
development comes into that area, they will be required to improve there section.
Mr. Borup was involved in a project where he was required to put in a sidewalk in
front of his building. After his building was approved, the parcel next to him put
in a sidewalk and now Tate Rents is putting in a sidewalk all along that corridor,
so it’s true that there would just be one section of sidewalk, but if you don’t at
least get a section at a time, there will probably never be a sidewalk.
Zimmer: I believe in sidewalks. I have a sidewalk (Inaudible) can’t get no
attention to at all because we are in the old part and the tree roots have pushed
it up. Just as a grandmother of five living on that corner, you have no sidewalks,
you have all these crazy drivers and I’m talking about crazy, you have Meridian
Lock and Key, we have the hub cap people, we have the Coca Cola Company—
all those people zoom down those roads. Anybody is welcome to come sit in my
house during the day, because I’m on the corner of King and 2nd
and watch them
fly by. So that’s why I protest. Thank you.
MacCoy: Thank you, is there anyone else? Okay, back to the commissioners,
what do you have for discussion?
Nelson: I personally would be inclined to agree with the resident on all this. I
want to set a precedent in old town and converting some homes over there to
commercial use. I’d like the applicant to have an opportunity to respond to the
residents.
MacCoy: Would you like to come up please.
Nelson: If he wants to respond to the residents.
Hartz: Of course we are not planning on turning this into a—we don’t depend on
traffic for our business. I doubt if we bring anymore traffic to the area than a
doctors office. The fact is some doctors offices would bring much more than we
do, since we do have a low traffic count. I just don’t feel that the traffic is a huge
item. We are lower than—according to ACHD we are lower than 50 per day with
our stated what we do for the (Inaudible) for business, so it’s not going to add an
awful lot to the neighborhood. It would do a lot for us, simply because it is pretty
property. We do want our customers to feel more at home and it’s larger than
what we have. We do want to become a more permanent part of the community.
We are leasing at this time and we started here, we want to continue here, but
we are growing and we do plan on making our home if it’s possible here in
Meridian. If we can do that, if you have any questions (Inaudible). Okay, I would
certainly be able to answer—or be willing to answer any questions you may
have. It seems to me that the type of business that we have would not be
inappropriate, the property right next to that we are going into adjacent to us is
owned by the lady that owns the herb tree. She owns kind of a dilapidated
warehouse and then there is a condemned house right next to the property. So
we are basically adjacent to commercial property. There are two lots between
us, but the same lady owns them all and she plans on selling them as
commercial. The house across from us is vacant and as I understand it has a lot
of weeds and is run down, that is right behind the hub cap place. So we are not
that far off of the beaten trap as far as business is concerned. It just seems to
me that it would be an appropriate use.
MacCoy: Mr. Nelson anything else for you?
Nelson: No.
(Inaudible)
MacCoy: Any other commissioners want to discuss before we--okay, do you
want to come back up.
Rossman: If I may make a point real quickly before, anybody who wants to come
up and offer rebuttal testimony, make sure it’s new testimony that you haven’t
already—just don’t come up and restate what you said before, make sure it’s
something new that you want to offer in response to what the applicant indicated.
Tiddens: He says his business right now might be five to six people a day, but
he’s expanding and hopes for increasing his business. How do we know from a
year from now it’s 50 or 100 people coming in and out of there? As they
expand? Also, (Inaudible) else I was going to say. It’s just an inappropriate use
of property. Most people don’t want this here because it’s business and like he
says he is next door to property that is on East 1st
street that is old commercial.
Well, the next people next year can say okay his property is commercial, I’m next
door to this or I’m across the street from this, so why don’t you make us
commercial. It can spread through there and I’ve got my life savings in this
house, I retired about seven years ago. I bought this house and I’ve got my life
savings wrapped up in it and I just hate to see it go to pots, when there is plenty
of places to locate.
Rossman: Sir, could you indicate in the microphone what your name was, just so
the record is clear.
Tiddens: My name is Eno Tiddens.
MacCoy: We have another hand go up over here.
Borup: Mr. Chairman, maybe just a point of clarification. As far as the zoning, all
of this is old town. The business on East 1st
are already zoning old town, it’s not
a separate commercial zoning is my understanding. So a zoning—they are not
asking for a zoning change. The zoning is already there. I think that was maybe
misunderstood.
MacCoy: He’s asking for a conditional use. I saw another hand go up here.
Does anybody want to say anything? A rebuttal? Okay as the attorney has
mentioned, use your name and lets move on.
Roberts: I’m not sure if some of this hasn’t been mentioned. I’m a little unclear.
My other concern I think somebody had mentioned, but I just—I don’t know.
Another concern I have is my property value being right across the street. Also,
if the rest of us say—I guess I’m unclear, is this commercial property then? All of
this—all that is zoning old town is commercial? Is that true?
Borup: Old town is a separate zoning designation by itself.
Roberts: So it can be anything?
Smith: Anything—there is some permitted—there is conditional use…
Borup: Most of it is conditional use, there are a few permitted uses. It’s a mixed
use type of thing they are talking about having public and cultural, financial and
recreation and general business mixed in with high and low density residential.
Roberts: Okay, I guess my concern was—had probably been aired about the
value of the property also.
Borup: So do you feel that commercial property sells for less than residential
then?
Roberts: You know, I’m not real sure, but I’m just thinking—I called the Planning
and Zoning, I can’t remember who I talked to. I wanted to have a portable
storage unit to put out there so I didn’t have to carry stuff out to the truck and
haul it down and do all this stuff. I was told that I couldn’t do that even though it
was temporary because, you know, Meridian wants to make sure that the street,
you know, that they look good. I informed him, they haven’t been in our
neighborhood, because down the street there are weeds growing up and you
know. So, are we going to have some kind of commercial in our neighborhood,
but we don’t want somebody to put something out here temporarily? I have a
little problem with that so. I want to keep it residential, I guess is what I’m saying.
MacCoy: Okay. Alright, thank you very much.
(Inaudible)
Tiddens: During the break I was talking with a gentleman back here and I think it
was overlooked that they are going to put a sign up too, which anybody going
through to look for a place to live or a place to buy will see that commercial sign
and take it right as a commercial business. Whether they might not want to live
that close to a commercial business. Especially with a sign up advertising it.
MacCoy: It has to go before a sign committee in the first place before a sign will
be granted. Anymore? Okay, we’ve heard our rebuttals. Commissioners, what
is you desire?
Smith: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion to close this public hearing.
Nelson: Second.
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
MacCoy: Okay, what’s you final viewpoint here?
Nelson: What is the intent of old town? (Inaudible) history of Meridian, what’s
the plan?
Borup: I guess I could summarize what’s here in the zoning ordinance, maybe
Shari—Do you want me to attempt and let Shari expand on it better, or maybe
she ought to—as I read it here, it’s a short paragraph that says it’s to
accommodate and encourage further expansion of the historical core of the
community. They are talking about encourage renewal, vitalization, growth, and
public and cultural and financial, recreational center of the city, says a variety of
these uses integrated with general business, medium to high density residential
and other related uses is encouraged, in an effort to provide the appropriate mix
of activity. It goes on from that and says everything will be by conditional use.
So it’s been my understanding that old town is to encourage a mixture. There is
quite an area that is zoned as old town and I guess you know maybe in my mind
some of it is more old town mixed use encouraged than others. I guess where
do you draw that line between those areas and strictly residential, I don’t know.
It’s hard to draw a line as things are growing and expanding. It is adjoining a
property that is a business use right now.
Smith: That would be west?
Borup: The property to the west. Maybe something to encourage improvement
of that property wouldn’t hurt. This might do that, I don’t know.
Nelson: I have a question for Shari. From a planning standpoint, I know we’ve
got the Comprehensive Plan provision through, what does the planning
department—how do would they like to see old town developed? Because it
almost needs to have a plan within old town as to what which part remains more
residential and which part more commercial, in my mind. It’s pretty open ended
right now.
Smith: You mean vague?
Nelson: Yeah, vague that’s a…
Shari: I prefer not too constraining.
Nelson: Not too constraining. Okay. In my mind I would be inclined to
encourage the applicant to do what he is trying to do but in an area more
appropriate, is there a plan, is there a direction, is there a vision?
MacCoy: There is, let me point out this morning I went to a meeting, followed by
a meeting which was called old town. There is a whole group of people and
outsiders as well putting together a revised plan of what old town should look like
in the future. The visionary plan and they are making considerable progress on
this so that will be turned over to the mayor of our city at the end of this year as a
formalized plan which will be sent out to the public for review and so on.
Borup: That is something that would be incorporated in the Comprehensive
Plan? Is that what they envision there?
MacCoy: Yes, they are getting a head start because they know this is coming up.
Borup: My point we just approved a project a month or go so that was the same
distance off East 1st
as this. A bridal saloon, which again was limited traffic.
MacCoy: Well, we’ve denied some and we’ve passed some depending on how it
fits the neighborhood. How we feel.
Borup: I’ve seen more—I know probably the area between East 1st
and Meridian
is probably been more of the old town development than west of Meridian—I
mean East—yeah west of Meridian and east of East 1st
. It depends on how far
out from the city center you are too.
MacCoy: Let me just give you the information that there is a plan being put
together right now so it will be presented to the mayor at the end of this year. It’s
your choice what you want to do with this.
Smith: Shari, is all the property south of King Street between East 1st
and East
2nd
, is that all currently residential use?
Stiles: All of it?
Smith: Between East 1st
and East 2nd
on the south side of King Street.
Shari: No. There is a hub cap store right on East 1st
Street.
Smith: Okay, this map had me confused.
Borup: The streets aren’t labeled.
Smith: (Inaudible) Okay, I know where I am.
Borup: Well, the streets aren’t labeled.
Smith: I know that.
Borup: Franklin is called Cottonwood or something.
Smith: Right, I found Meridian Road and I was think that—okay, I know where
I’m at. Then, what about the parcel right behind the hub cap place, is that
commercial or residential?
Stiles: I think it is residential, it is primarily residential beyond the first lot on east
1st
Street.
Borup: You get down to Bowers Street and it’s commercial, well, all the way till it
ends, mixed in.
Nelson: What’s the chances of half of this being commercial in the next five
years anyway?
Borup: Five years, I wouldn’t say they are great. I don’t think it’s going to grow
that—I don’t think it’s going to happen that fast. The type of things that are going
to go into this type of thing are going to be small type businesses. At least that’s
what we’ve seen so far, something that is—I don’t know, it could be accountants
office or things like that, but small type businesses that are looking at that major
retail traffic, because they are just not going to be attracted to little places like
this.
De Weerd: Some more designation type of businesses.
Borup: Well, that’s my guess, but what do I know?
MacCoy: I think you are going to find that they are all homes businesses that will
go in like attorney’s, CPA, and so on that will use the home as it is.
Borup: Yeah, they are not going to tear it down, like north end of Boise.
Nelson: Let me make this one last comment before I make a motion. Some of
the other developments of this type where they’ve taken homes and want to
make them commercial, in a lot of cases, the neighbors are almost encouraging
it because they would like the value of their property to raise in a commercial
fashion also. Here we have a case where most of the residents aren’t inclined to
move that way, which for me would weigh heavier toward the denial. I haven’t
seen anyone stand up here saying that as soon as this is approved that I’m
looking at selling my house in two years. There you have it.
Borup: The other aspect that was brought out, this is a conditional use permit.
It’s not a permit commercial zoning, any other business that went in there would
have to come back for another conditional use, if this business…
MacCoy: That’s true.
Borup: Well, maybe that’s a question.
Nelson: They have their complaints probably.
Borup: The applicant stated that the traffic is by appointment only, rather than a
walk in type. I guess that could be made a condition of approval. I’m assuming
that could be. It may be a little hard to enforce but that would be part of the
conditional use.
MacCoy: What’s that going to (Inaudible)?
Borup: Neighbors too concerned about too much traffic.
MacCoy: Well, the traffic could still increase if he gets to be well know to the
point where they would beat a path to his door. Which every (Inaudible) would
like to have, phone calls or not.
Borup: I’m thinking out loud.
De Weerd: I guess the considerations that I’m seeing is we need to remain
sensitive to the residential flavor. Certainly, you wonder on the properties coming
off of East 1st
, how the resale value are—is in anything other than commercial,
being so close to such a busy street and how those residences are kept up,
would probably be another issue. I haven’t seen the property so I don’t know for
that block stretch if those are well kept properties. The properties, except the
property that is before us—I’ve heard someone mention that one is a boarded up
house and in poor condition and the home on the other side across the street is
weed infested and not kept well either. If businesses were to go in there and
again, I wouldn’t imagine a business that depends on traffic driving by there
going in those locations. They would be more service designation only type of
businesses. At least those places would be kept up. Maybe those would keep
your values for the residential. Or if you want to just try and see who buys those
types of properties, I don’t know, that’s a hard call.
(Inaudible)
Rossman: Ma’am the public hearing has been closed, can’t have anymore
testimony.
De Weerd: But I guess those are the issues. I understand them wanting to keep
their neighborhood residential and once you start commercial in there, it’s going
to go commercial.
Nelson: I’m inclined to make a motion that we send this to City Council with the
recommendation for denial.
De Weerd: Based on the lack of support from the local residents and the
ambiguity of old town anyway. I think it’s appropriate.
Smith: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: Three ayes, one nay.
MacCoy: It’s approved. Mr. Attorney you can draft it that way to the council.
Rossman: It will be in form of a recommendation to the City Council under the
Meridian Planning and Zoning Ordinance there will not be another public hearing
before the City Council. They will make there determination based upon the
record that was submitted today. There are—under the Meridian Planning and
Zoning Ordinance there will not be another public hearing before the Meridian
City Council on this matter. It will be decided—their decision will be based solely
upon the testimony at this hearing. There are appeal rights, that are set forth
within the Planning and Zoning Ordinance that you can file an appeal. You can
contact Shari Stiles office if you would like to review the ordinance.
(Inaudible)
MacCoy: Council, would you repeat the recommendation?
Rossman: Yes, Commissioner Nelson raised a motion to send the matter on to
the City Council with the recommendation of denial of the application and that
motion was approved by a three to one vote.
MacCoy: The speech is in your favor as homeowners, so it’s a good thing that
you came out.
Nelson: Just for the benefit of the audience, the City Council makes the final.
MacCoy: (Inaudible) come forward and ask the question of what, us, or the…
(Inaudible)
MacCoy: The council just said it’s not an open meeting (Inaudible) it’s not a
public hearing, you can go and listen to it, but it’s not a public hearing where you
can speak.
ITEM #14: REQUEST FOR AN ACCESSORY USE PERMIT FOR A
PHOTOGRAPHY STUDIO IN BY MARK WIARS –860 E FINCH CREEK:
MacCoy: Staff?
Stiles: Mr. Chairman, commissioners you have our recommendations before you
in your packets, hopefully, they were submitted late, you may not have had them
until yesterday. We have made the standard comments for the majority of it and
however, we do need some clarification on the use of the garage, how much of
that garage is being used for a photography studio or being proposed to. There
is an ordinance requirement that they have a garage capable of housing two
vehicles if that is not the case with what they are proposing we would
recommend that that be denied.
MacCoy: Is that it?
Stiles: Yes.
MacCoy: Open the public hearing now, will the applicant come forward now
please.
MARK WIARS, 860 E. FINCH CREEK, MERIDIAN, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY
THE ATTORNEY.
Wiars: My wife is a professional photographer. We recently, about a year and
three months ago we moved into this house and we set up the garage as a
photography studio. Unbeknownst to us and our neighborhood and matter of
fact for a home based business you need an accessory use permit and we found
out solely by chance that we need one and didn’t want to do anything dishonest
so we went ahead and made the paperwork and filled out papers and started the
process. As a professional photographer, she has about maybe three to five
cars a week come to the house. Most professional photographers are portrait
photographers is what she is. She is here at the schools or at churches for
weddings, or down at the park for family portraits or things of that nature. She
either will usually go to their house or at the school to go over pictures or through
the mail or occasional they come to the house. As my wife said she spends
more time at her girlfriends house than people that come to our house.
(Inaudible) photographers in Boise, or the Boise area are home-based
businesses. As I mentioned most of t he pictures are done off site. There was
one objection raised to the accessory use permit. Unfortunately he is moving—
according to the letter he stated that he had objections with opening a
photography studio citing traffic concerns. Our business, or my wife’s studio is
so unobtrusive that he didn’t realize that she had been doing business for over a
year. He wasn’t aware of that. After I talked to him, he didn’t realize it and he
also agreed that our neighbors kids, teenagers they park more cars and drive up
and down a whole lot more than the one or two that my wife brings in. He was
going to go ahead and contact the planning and zoning department and withdraw
his objection, however, he was in the process of moving and probably with
moving and selling his house, it appears he didn’t do as he said he was going to
do to me.
MacCoy: Excuse me, what is his name?
De Weerd: Brian McDonald.
MacCoy: I want to find out if that’s the letter that we have.
(END OF TAPE)
Wiars: …saying that traffic. She has known that we have had a home based
business in there since we moved in. IN fact, there is other people who have it
as well. She was willing to write a letter stating that there wasn’t any type of
concern of traffic problems or anything like that and she has know the business
has been in existence. The comments that were attached. I was given a phone
call late last night and picked them up this morning. I was requested by Bill at
the water—no, I was requested to tell Bill at the water department that Chip said
to ignore his comments and he said if you had any questions give him a call. I
called him at a quarter to five this afternoon and he said he was
misunderstanding, he thought there was going to be development of chemicals
and things of that nature in there and he didn’t realize it was just my wife taking
pictures or people coming in to pick them up.
MacCoy: Would you mind elaborating about how the business is run from the
standpoint, the chemicals and…
Wiars: There are no chemicals. A senior would come in—in fact I brought a
couple of pictures I bet you probably have seen them up and down. A senior
would come in and stand in front of—or sit in front of a backdrop, my wife has a
couple of studio lights and stands. She takes the pictures, she sends it to—she
uses Nickels which is a developing lab over by the airport and they develop it.
She either drops them off at the school or they come back and pick it up. Then
she takes them—for like senior pictures she takes them to the school. For
weddings she goes to the church and she meets them at their house and finds
out what they want to do and what type of pictures they want and to what extend
some people just want snapshots, other people want everything recorded on
film.
MacCoy: I understand, but no processing though.
Wiars: There is no processing at all.
MacCoy: That’s the main thing.
Wiars: It’s just snapshots, it’d be taking pictures. Then in the garage it’s set up
where it’s all open. So the garage is totally. The garage doors are still there and
pull cars in if we so desire—we’ve opted not to desire, but we can, there is no
obstructions, no reconstruction per say over and above what the original house
was built for. I only had one other concern or question, it was on here under title
no. 2, the City of Meridian—I guess two of the Planning and Zoning from Bruce
and Shari, item no. 2 said sanitary sewer and water facility and had some
concerns. There is no additional—they come in and take a picture and leave.
There is no additional water usage, or sewer (Inaudible) or anything of that
nature. It’s a home based business, we are just trying to follow the law.
MacCoy: Anything else?
Wiars: No sir.
MacCoy: Commissioners?
Borup: Just one, it sounded like the only concern Shari really had was on the
garage item. So you are saying that the garage is open and you can park two
cars in there if you want to drive them in?
Wiars: Correct.
Borup: So it wouldn’t be any different than half the houses in town that have too
much storage in there they can’t get a car in anyway.
Wiars: Yes, a lot of our neighbors have that problem, or they are parking their
boat in there or camper or something, yes.
Borup: So there is no walls or other obstructions that would prevent a car from
driving.
Wiars: No, we deliberately set it up for resale purposes, where if we wanted to
move a year or two or three years from now that there would be no problems
with resale.
Borup: Thank you. That’s all I have.
MacCoy: Any other commissioners? It’s a public hearing, is there anybody here
in favor? We’ll be talking to nobody pretty soon here. Anyone against this
proposal?
De Weerd: Mr. Chairman, I would move that we close the public hearing.
Smith: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
De Weerd: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that we approve the accessory
use permit for a photography studio.
Smith: Second.
Borup: Do you mean to recommend approval? No, this is accessory use. This
doesn’t go to City Council does it?
De Weerd: So do we order findings?
Rossman: I believe that’s correct, it’s an accessory use, you have final authority,
so you will need to have findings prepared and approved at the next public
hearing, or next meeting.
De Weerd: Okay, I’ll withdraw that motion.
MacCoy: Okay, let make another motion.
De Weerd: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that we ask the city attorney to
draw up Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law to approve the accessory use
permit.
Smith: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
MacCoy: You can go home and tell your wife she has a place to work.
Rossman: Mr. Chairman, a point of clarification, was the comment regarding one
of the departments comments as not being applicable, so we can follow up on
that, which one was that?
MacCoy: That was water.
Rossman: Water department? Okay.
Borup: I thought it was sewer. Oh, on the reduce pressure back flow assembly.
MacCoy: We have both directions, we have the use of water, plus. (Inaudible)
quantities…
Borup: They could pressurize irrigation there.
MacCoy: I think that is probably true, but that’s water control.
Borup: That’s from the sewer department.
ITEM NO. 15: REQUEST FOR ANNEXATION & ZONING OF .96 ACRES
(OLSON BUSH INDUSTRIAL PARK) BY RAY ROBNETT – 3036 LANARK
STREET:
MacCoy: Staff?
Stiles: Mr. Chairman, commissioners you have in your packets our comments.
The comments that we have made are based mainly on the existing conditions
here and ordinance requirements the applicant may have some comments on
some problems he has. I think his main problem has to do probably with the
Evans Drain that is located adjacent to the railroad tracks at the northern
boundary of this property, but other than that, he can address if he has any
problems with these comments.
MacCoy: Is that it?
Stiles: Yes.
MacCoy: Is the applicant here? Come forward please.
RAY ROBNETT, 1011 S. STAR ROAD, STAR, ID. WAS SWORN IN BY THE
ATTORNEY.
Robnett: We’ve requested for this property at 3036 Lanark to be annexed into
the city. The primary reason for that is because we need water hook up, water
meter to the property. This project has quite a history to it, not all real charming
history, but none the less, we came into Meridian City. If you know where Lanark
is you know where YMC is and Ron Van Auker’s office over there just off of
Eagle Road, a little street there. I was sure that was in the City of Meridian so I
came down and requested for—would like to make application for a building
permit and at that time I was told that it was not Meridian City, but Ada County. I
went down to Ada County and they said yes that is our jurisdiction and you need
to do a traffic development study on the property and then we can issue a
building permit on it. So we paid the fee, spent two months—Ada County
Highway District did their traffic development study, we’re required to put
sidewalks in front. They only have three employees there, so it didn’t have an
adverse impact on the little infrastructure street there or Eagle Road. We got all
finished with that and that took several months and I spent about $10,000 on
architectural plans and engineering, they called me, they said your permits are
ready to pick up. The owner in the mean time had given notice, he’s been 15
years down on Front Street and had given notice there, the bank loan is done—
we are all ready to go and they said by the way you need to get your letter from
Meridian City giving you water from Central District Health approving your septic
system and from the Nampa/Meridian drainage system for the drainage. We did
all of the Central District Health, that was just getting our septic tank approved.
There is going to be sewer there that thing I was talking to Bruce and that is in
fact going to happen. We went ahead and spent $1,000 at above ground sand
mound system approved in the event that this thing doesn’t go through. Central
District Health was okay with that. Nampa/Meridian has been notified three
times on this project. Two traffic development studies that I had to do—didn’t do
the first one right, the second one we got right. Then for this meeting here
tonight. Then I came to Bruce and I said before I had even started the project, I
called up—I’ve done this, it’s all I’ve ever done in my life as a builder. I’ve done it
for 25 years. I miss some things, but usually I try to be pretty thorough. We do
about three or four of these buildings a year and that’s it. We are not big
operators. So in covering my bases, I called and I said what do we do to get a
water meter and he said you either have to annex into the city or pay double
hook up fees. He said if I remember right, $700. I said okay fine. So knowing
that I had to either annex into the city which I didn’t want to do, then I’ll just pay
the double hook up fees. When I come down, I just walked into his office with my
checkbook and I was going to pay the double hookup fees so I can get my letter.
Bruce informed me that he not only could not give me a letter, but that I had been
denied a water meter at all. I had never been notified of any public hearing
regarding a water meter. I’d never been told that that choice to either annex into
the city or pay double fees was not my choice, but it was either the
commissioners or the City Council’s decision. I think that went before City
Council, right Bruce? I’m not saying that he misinformed me, there was just a
little bit more to the story. When I did this annexation and applied for this
annexation, I stopped and talked in Shari’s office there to Brad and I said Brad if
someone has a piece of property and they’re in the county but they are next to
Meridian City and they gotta have Meridian City water, how do you do that? He
said you have to either annex into the city or pay double fees. I said really? And
he says yeah really, you just pay double fees or you annex in. That’s the truth,
but that’s not what I’m allowed to do. So here I am down there, I’m in Ada
County, this building is built and the way these conditions of approval are read,
we are laying carpet in on Friday. The staff comments is they are made in such
a way that I’m going to build this thing and I’ll meet all the conditions that
Meridian City has. Well, as I read through them, I think the ones that really have
concerns, setbacks, parking and landscaping and everything, we meet all those
fine. I needed to get my letter. I went to the mayor and I explained my dilemma
to him and he said if you will get me a letter from the owner of the property
stating that you will annex into the city, then I will give you a letter saying—I will
give you that Meridian City will not deny you water. The letter that I got from Mr.
Mark Nelson the owner, says I’m Mark Nelson owner of Wheel City Inc. of Idaho
do willfully agree to the annexation of 3036 Lanark, Lot 4, Block 1, Olson Bush
Industrial Park, City of Meridian annex to the city of Meridian, I am the owner of
the above described property. We will comply with all landscaping and parking
as described by the City of Meridian, thank you for your timely consideration of
this matter and we will be excellent contributers to the area in the City of
Meridian. I gave that—this letter is addressed to Robert Corrie. I gave that to
him, when he had that in hand, he gave him a letter, I went down to Ada County I
got a permit and I built the building. When I—what I thought the annexation, the
extend of it would be that I’m just taking my property and putting it into Meridian
City, because it’s Meridian City all around. There is this little island that is Ada
County. I thought it would be a fairly simple procedure. Some of the
requirements that we’ve been asked to comply with City of Meridian owns and
maintains the water line and Lanark adjacent to the subject site at this time the
sewer is not available, however, the Van Auker sewer extension will provide
sewer to the site. The applicant went before City Council to request service
while outside of the city limits. The City Council denied the applications, staff has
not been informed of a reversal of denial of City Council. It may be that
annexation can take place prior to water service being needed. We don’t need
water service till around December. You know, we’ve got another month. I don’t
know how long it takes to get the annexation. I did get a letter from the mayor
saying that I could have a water meter. I have a fire hydrant right on the corner
of my property. I have a letter in here saying that it does not—the fire
department has no problem with it as far as the water is concerned. I
understand that it’s kind of like the twilight zone, I really been trying to work with
it. It’s extremely frustrating, we are a small operation--It’s me, my wife, we’ve got
two boys and my brother. To take—Shari kind of implied when I first come up
with the problem I sit down and had a meeting with them. They said, well, just
get everything back from Ada County, annex it in from the City of Meridian and
then go back to the City of Meridian and reapply for your building permit. Well,
that’s a six month void in my work schedule. I don’t have--I’m not like Stead (sic)
or somebody that’s got a bunch of buildings going. I’ve got this one, when this is
done, I’ll go to the next one. I can not stop, or could not stop and address all of
this at the time. That’s one of the conditions, I don’t know, what does that mean?
Does that mean I’m going to get a water meter after I’m annexed into the city?
Does it mean that I’m going to—you know, the mayor asked me to—he says will
you meet all the landscaping requirements and all the parking requirements?
They want a 35 foot setback from the frontage, well, we are 40 foot. We are 10
foot from property line, we’ve got a letter here from Central District Health saying
that we are okay. I’ve got a letter from the fire department—the Meridian Fire
Department will not have a problem with this annexation or zoning. The
Nampa/Meridian Irrigation, they have no comment on this because they’ve
already commented on it twice. They have no problem with it. I have that letter
that I can show you where they said it’s fine, they are not requiring us to tile the
ditch, they don’t want the ditch tiled. They said if we do tile it and want to park on
it, that’s okay, but that’s a $15,00 dollar item to tile that ditch because it’s got to
be a 48 inch pipe. I’ve got—oh here’s one that really concerns me from the
water department, it says the city needs to develop another water source before
anymore development takes place in this area. Now, I’ve got a water/fire hydrant
on the corner of my property. I’ve got a brand spanking new 8-10-12 inch line,
10 inch line in front of my property, it’s about two years old. I’ve got the fire
department that says it’s okay. Meridian—or Ada County gave me a building
permit and I don’t know what—this could mean a lot of things. The city needs to
develop another water source, I know that there’s Van Aukers next door and he’s
on a well. We do have city water and we are going to have city sewer. If any of
you drove by the project, it’s a nice building. We’ve taken to our neighbors
around there for this annexation, we’ve shown them site plans, colors, we’ve
worked with them. Everybody is please with the building. I would not be here
before you tonight requesting an annexation if I had understood or had gotten a
more direct answer on my original question. What do I need to do to get water
service to my property. It was said that you either annex into the city or pay
double fees. On this project $700 wouldn’t have hurt us, we could have just paid
that and that’s all I thought we needed. I really feel like—you know, this is my
life, this is what I do. I feel like someone is playing ping pong with it between
Meridian and Ada County and I go down there and I meet all their requirements.
Shari and Bru---I’m just being factual here about stuff. I’m not saying that they
did do, didn’t do, but all of this stuff that I’m talking about is just factual stuff
about—I don’t even know how much my—excuse me, I know it’s late and I’ll try
and be brief. I don’t know if it’s best to be first or last, but I wound up being last
and I really feel like I need to say what I come to say. I’ve been about six or
seven months in this, I don’t even know what my latecomers fees are going to be
on my water line. During that course I’ve called Bruce five, six, seven times—
take your time, I’m not in a big hurry, but I do need to know. To this day I do not
know what my latecomer fees are going to be on that water line. During any of
those conversations, I was never told, by the way Ray, you are not going to get a
water meter. You are not going to—you know, it’s something that we decide or
you have to be annexed into the city or anything, not that he had to give me that
information, but I feel like, not willfully, there is a lot that I could‘ve been told that
would’ve never brought me to this. I’m annexing into the city. I think it’s a great
thing. It probably needs to be done. Clean up the area a little bit. I feel like we
are doing it , we’re meeting most of the conditions, all the building department
issues, I don’t have a problem with any of those. You know, we are not building
a substandard building or any of block construction. We are ten feet away from
property lines. Some of these conditions, I just have a problem with.
Smith: Mr. Robnett, if I might interrupt you just a moment here.
Robnett: You sure can.
Smith: You are starting to repeat yourself and it is getting late, but on one hand
you’ve gone through this dissertation on how your only concern is getting hooked
into water and you were told you have to annex into the city because—or you
have to pay double hook-up fees, but there seems to be some kind of glitch in
there. Now you are starting to talk about you have a problem with these
conditions about being annexed into the city. I guess that I’m just confused here
on about what the whole issue is here and maybe Bruce…
(Inaudible)
Smith: We’ve heard this on other applications tonight already. If you don’t annex
into the city you are paying double hook-up. If he doesn’t annex into the city, is it
true he can’t get a water meter off the city?
Freckleton: Commissioner Smith, members of the commission, the procedure is
if you are outside the city limits and you want water service, you pay the double
hook-up fee but it has to be under the approval of the City Council. City Council
has to approve connections outside the city limits. During this whole process,
someone understood that because the owner of the building wrote a letter
requesting, making that request to City Council. It went to City Council, it was
denied. (Inaudible)
Borup: Could you elaborate on why it was denied? I don’t think that has been
brought out, does anybody know?
Freckleton: I’ll let Shari address that.
(Unknown): It was recommended for approval wasn’t it Bruce?
Shari: No.
Freckleton: I wrote a memo to the city clerk, he wrote me a memo asking me
what my recommendation would be. I recommended that the property should be
annexed, that should be the proper procedure. That way the application goes
through the city for building permit, it would be built to city standards, parking
requirements, landscape requirements, signage, the gamut. That was my
recommendation.
Robnett: See my understanding was that I could pay double fees, I’ll give you
$700 dollars more, I get my permit at Ada County and we are not having this
discussion.
Borup: You never understood that it had to be approved by City Council.
Robnett: Absolutely not, the letter that he’s talking about that got written was
written by the city engineer. That actually was written to them, we did make the
application, but it was not till the whole process was already foregone and well
under way.
Borup: I think Shari is going to comment on why City Council denied it.
Stiles: Part of the reason that they denied it was that Van Auker had come in
and wanted a building permit on some of the property that they already annexed.
City Council said until the sewer is there we are no going to allow any building
permits in the area. So when he came in with his request they saw that, you
know, further ammunition to try to get that sewer line through, I believe. Just
because they denied the Van Auker building permit, felt they also needed to deny
this one.
Borup: What’s the status of the sewer line now?
Stiles: Hopefully construction within the next 90 days.
De Weerd: They denied it after Ada County had approved his building and sent
everything else.
Stiles: It was during the same process.
Robnett: See Ada County is where I make application for building permit
because the lot is in Ada County.
Stiles: But Mr. Robnett is also well aware that if this comes up again he’ll come
to the city first.
Robnett: It doesn’t go without learning something, I agree.
De Weerd: The process you went through, you got a letter from the city saying
that you would have that hook-up and that’s how you got your building permit in
Ada County.
Robnett: I got a letter from the mayor.
Borup: It appears the mayor wrote a letter and didn’t have the authority to
really…
De Weerd: The mayor should have said I don’t have the authority to do this.
Smith: Bruce can you talk to the comment by the water district that the city
needs development of their water service before any development can take
place in this area.
Borup: I have a question on that too.
(Inaudible)
Freckleton: It could be a 24 inch but still if you don’t have the flow and the
volume, it’s not there.
Borup: Is this (Inaudible) waters source for family center? The same water line?
Freckleton: It’s south of…
Borup: Is it tied in?
Freckleton: We have a pressure zone in the west or eastern end of town there.
Borup: My concern is if there is not enough water for this, do we have enough
water for the family center?
Freckleton: We are in the process of acquiring a well off of Franklin Road. It’s
our hopes that that will alleviate this problem and Gary Smith is working on that.
We are also working with consultants. We are trying to bring a water main
across the interstate, which will connect up another pressure zone we have on
the south side of the interstate to this side. All of these projects are all to
alleviate this pressure flow problem.
Borup: My questions still is if—a business with three employees is going to
cause a hardship but a 800,000 foot complex doesn’t?
Freckleton: I would agree that this is a pretty minimal impact, compared to the
family center.
De Weerd: Because of that…
Borup: The family center needs the same—I mean the water applies more to
that than this.
Freckleton: Correct.
Borup: But either way it’s still (Inaudible)…
Freckleton: Correct. We have had some discussions with the developer of the
family center regarding a well site.
Robnett: So then the problem is being—in process of being solved?
Freckleton: I believe that we are working on it, yeah.
(Inaudible)
Borup: Mr. Robnett you said there are 15 items on staff recommendations. Care
(Inaudible) problems with some of those?
Robnett: Well, staff is uncertain if all city ordinances are being met and request
that plans be provided to the city, even though Ada County may have already
issued a building permit. They’ve not only issued a building permit, the building
is done.
Borup: Well, but—how can staff state that any different. Without seeing the
plans there is no way they’d know if it met all the city ordinances.
Robnett: Well, I agree with that, but what if there is something there that they do
not like? I’m in Ada County, the lot is in Ada County.
Borup: You address that at that time.
Robnett: I agree with that, but do you see where I’m coming from Keith? I mean
I’m over there in Ada County, I pulled out the (Inaudible)…
Borup: No, I understand.
Robnett: I’ve built it just like Ada County said to do it.
Borup: Is that the only one that you’ve got a question on.
Robnett: I don’t think there is a real—I’ve made all the setbacks, I talked to Shari
about all the setbacks, I meet those.
Borup: Then there is probably not a concern. A lot of stuff they do is stuff that
needs to be stated.
Robnett: Everything else…
Borup: To me you haven’t really brought up anything that sounds like a problem
with any of staff comments.
Robnett: I agree.
Borup: Okay. I still—you know what I’m wondering? Why are we annexing one
lot at a time? Why are the whole subdivision annexed at once?
Robnett: I think this is the last lot.
Borup: Not according to the plat that you submitted, or is in our packet.
Freckleton: There are two additional lots west of this particular lot before you get
to what is Olson Bush No. 2. That annexation for Olson Bush No.2 came in
about—just guessing, I think it was about three years ago, two or three years
ago.
Borup: Okay, the plat we’ve got shows them one to the south
Side 5
De Weerd: Okay, I second that.
MacCoy: Did you get the first part? All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
MacCoy: Shari will write a letter.
ITEM NO. 18: ADA COUNTY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES – RE: 98-27-ZC
RICK LEININGER:
Stiles: I would also recommend denial. Our Comprehensive Plan requires that
all properties within our impact area that are not served by municipal sewer and
water will be limited to five acre minimums. It doesn’t matter if it’s the one you
know Will.
Borup: We talked about this at the workshop a little bit, not about this, but
about—opportunity for larger lots, but that needs to be addressed in the
Comprehensive Plan, is that what you are saying?
Stile: I think—in our area of impact within annexed areas that we are proposing
for development to have some larger lots. I don’t think just because there is a
one acre subdivision across the street that that’s a reason. A reason for having
that five acre minimum in our Comprehensive Plan is the very fact that Ada
County went out and chopped everything up. Anybody that walked into the door
with one acre subdivision was approved. It’s going to be impossible to develop
that to urban standards and provide sewer and water because nobody is going to
want to do it because they’ve got their septic. It’s very cost prohibitive to provide
municipal services to those sites once we actually have services out there.
Borup: For acre lots.
MacCoy: Okay, where is my motion?
Borup: We look at what Eagle is doing and…
Smith: I don’t know that I agree.
Borup: Well, this is probably too close in.
Smith: At the point in time where you start annexing in all these one acre
subdivisions, does it make sense to have to start running municipal water out to
them if they have adequate wells on site?
Borup: It depends on what is around it. This is pretty close in, well maybe it’s
not that close in. I think we need somewhere in our Comprehensive Plan to
allow for some estate size lots.
MacCoy: We’re going to have to get it, we know that.
Borup: This may not be the area that it’s appropriate for…
Unknown: It’s past Ten Mile…
Borup: Well, that’s appropriate then. Oh, that’s right, this is Overland, for some
reason I thought this was Cherry Lane. It’s clear out in the boonies. We are
never going to have services out there.
MacCoy: What do you want me to do Keith.
Stiles: If this property was across the street it would be a ten acre minimum.
Borup: Across the street from where?
Stiles: To the west.
Borup: On the other side of Nola?
Stiles: Actually on our impact area boundary line.
Borup: They are trying to—oh, I’m sorry I had this mixed up with the one that is
coming before us next month. I got ahead of myself. They’re just trying to get a
place for their kids to live there with them. This is clear out on the top of
Overland and Ten Mile. I don’t have a problem with it.
Smith: I don’t have a problem with it.
Stiles: Then you better change the Comprehensive Plan.
Borup: Well, grandpa is trying to get their kids with him.
Stiles: They could try for a temporary living quarters then. You can’t recommend
this if it doesn’t comply with the Comprehensive Plan. I will not write a letter
recommending approval for this.
Nelson: Because they have other avenues if they want to build a temporary
home.
Smith: Why didn’t you say that at the beginning?
Stiles: I did.
MacCoy: She did, nobody’s listened to her.
Smith: No, earlier she said she recommends, now she says she will not. She
could’ve made this a lot easier. I’ll make a motion that we deny this application
and direct Shari to write a letter to Ada County stating because it does not
comply with the Meridian Comprehensive Plan.
Nelson: Second.
Borup: Now why, well I was at the Ada County talking to a planner just two days
ago. I think they understand that, why didn’t they tell these people that it doesn’t
comply with the Comprehensive Plan.
Stiles: It depends on which planner they talk to.
Borup: Okay.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.
Nelson: I would like to make a motion that we adjourn.
Smith: Second.
Borup: Well, I’ve got one question if I may about that—Shari, did you ever
receive a letter from Ms. JoAnn Butler?
Stiles: About what?
Borup: An apology letter.
Stiles: Some half-baked apology letter, I think one was sent to me, I think the
attorney got one. It didn’t out and out admit total lies, but…
De Weerd: I want one.
Borup: Okay I understood that she was directed to submit an apology letter to
you and to this commission, but…
Stiles: I think Bill got a copy.
Rossman: Along those lines, she did ask me if she could send a letter to the
commissioners and I told her she couldn’t. She had to go through City Council. I
didn’t give it to you because it wasn’t part of the record. If you want it, I’ll give it
to you now.
De Weerd: I would.
Berg: Did she write one to City Council?
Rossman: Yes, I got one, it wasn’t much of an apology, it was more of an
explanation.
Borup: She didn’t stand before City Council and deny things six times in a row.
Smith: She lied.
Stiles: She lied.
Smith: An attorney?
De Weerd: As hard as that is to believe.
Smith: Did we have a motion to adjourn? I move that we adjourn.
Nelson: Second.
MacCoy: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: All ayes.