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2009 11-19Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting November 19, 2009 Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of November 19, 2009, was called to order at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman David Moe. Members Present: Chairman David Moe, Commissioner Joe Marshall, Commissioner Tom O'Brien, and Commissioner Michael Rohm. Members Absent: Commissioner Wendy Newton-Huckabay. Others Present: Ted Baird, Nancy Radford, Anna Canning, Kristi Vigil, Teri Ricks, and Dean Willis. Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance: Roll-call Wendy Newton-Huckabay X Tom O'Brien X Michael Rohm -Vice Chairman X Joe Marshall X David Moe -Chairman Moe: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to welcome you to the regularly scheduled meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission for the 19th of November. I'd like to call this meeting to order and ask the clerk to call roll, please. Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda: Moe: Thank you very much. Next item on the agenda is the adoption of the agenda. Commissioners, there are -- and the public, there are a couple changes to the agenda. We will just go over those. First off, Item No. 6 on the agenda, the applicant has requested a withdrawal of that, so we will not -- we will take care of that when it comes up in order. And, then, Item No. 7, the applicant there has requested a continuance to the -- our regularly scheduled meeting of the 3rd of December and we will take that up in order as well. Other than that, the agenda would stay the same. So, could I get a motion to accept the agenda as noted? Rohm: So moved. Marshall: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the adoption of the agenda. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 3: Consent Agenda: Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 2 of 23 A. Approve Minutes of November 5, 2009 Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting: Moe: Commissioners, the next item is the Consent Agenda. On that agenda we have one item, which is the approval of minutes from our November 5th, 2009, Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. Any questions, comments to that at all? Could I, then, get a motion to accept that? Marshall: So moved. O'Brien: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to accept the agenda. All those in favor say aye. Opposed. That motion carries. Thank you. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Moe: Before we get started in our public hearing phase, we have got some new faces out in the audience, so I was going to kind of go through the format of how we hold our meeting here. I will open the hearing for the project and at that point ask the staff to give a brief overview of the project and after which they are done I will, then, ask the applicant to come forward. The applicant will have 15 minutes to explain any additional information from what the staff had discussed and -- or other comments that they think are pertinent to the Commission. After that 15 minutes there are sign-up sheets in the back that the public can sign up for to talk to any of these hearings. You will be given three minutes time period to express your opinion and ask questions and whatnot. After the names have been taken care of on the list I will ask one more time if there is anyone else that would like to speak in regard to the hearing. If none, then, I will, then, ask the applicant to come back forward and, basically, rebut any information that was discussed during the public hearings. After that is done, then, we would, then, close the public hearing and, then, the Commission would act on that hearing. So, very simple. Item 4: Continued Public Hearing from October 15, 2009: Request for a Street Name Change from N. Washington Place to N. West 14cn Place by the City of Meridian: Item 5: Continued Public Hearing from October 15, 2009: Request for a Street Name Change from W. Washington Drive to N. West 9cn Avenue by the City of Meridian: Moe: So, therefore, I would now like to open the continued public hearing on the request for a street name change from North Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place by the City of Meridian and talk to the staff and that would be the applicant as well, so -- Ricks: Okay. Good evening, Chairman Moe and Members of the Commission. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to bring this matter before you tonight. We have been Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 3 of 23 notified by Glenda Britz, senior dispatcher for the Ada County Sheriff's Department, of an area located in the Phillips and Gregory No. 2 Subdivisions causing concern for emergency services. Specifically there are three streets carrying the core name of Washington. These streets are located adjacent to one another. They are Washington Street, Washington Drive, and Washington Place. In addition, each of these streets have address numbers in the 1100 block range. There have been seven emergency calls to this area in the last year, three of them being medical emergencies. On two occasions medical personnel were originally dispatched to West Washington Place, rather than West Washington Drive. The third call was initially dispatched to West Washington Street, rather than West Washington Drive. It is our concern that without correcting this situation there could be major delays in response time when critical emergency services are next needed in the area. It is the recommendation of the Ada County street naming committee that the following street names be changed. Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place. Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue. While several other proposals have been considered, changing house numbers, changing street name directional, and attempting to solve the issue in-house within the Ada County dispatch area, it is our recommendation that changing the above- mentioned two streets affecting nine households would be the most effective and prudent action. The recommendation to change Washington Place and Washington Drive, as opposed to changing Washington Street, comes after review of the following factors: Twenty-seven homes are located along West Washington Street. Five homes are located along Washington Place. Four homes are located along Washington Drive. In addition to the notification of a public hearing being held, letters were sent to all affected residents inviting them to attend a neighborhood meeting held at City Hall on October 28th at 7:00 p.m. Both these streets in question are located in well established neighborhoods in subdivisions recorded over 35 years ago. Because of this we don't make this recommendation lightly. The purpose of the meeting was to provide a less formal atmosphere to discuss resident concerns, as well as offer the opportunity to have representatives from Ada County dispatch, Meridian fire department, Meridian police department, and Development Services on hand to answer any questions. Four residents were in attendance. At the end of the meeting two residents approved of the proposed change, one opposed, and one remained neutral. I stand for any questions at this time and if afterwards I could ask permission to introduce Glenda Britz, who is a senior dispatcher with 26 years of experience with the Ada County dispatch. Moe: Okay. Well, for the record before that I want to go ahead and -- I had opened the hearing for the first name change, I'm going to go ahead and since we are kind of doing them together -- Ricks: Okay. Moe: -- I'm going to open the other one for the request for North -- or, excuse me, West Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue as well. So, any questions, Commissioners, of staff so far? O'Brien: I just have -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 4 of 23 Moe: Mr. O'Brien. O'Brien: One question, Mr. Chair. So, you're changing Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place; is that correct? Moe: Yes. The North Washington Place to Northwest 14th. O'Brien: Aren't we kind of like having the same problem with -- I mean they are both similar names again, from Washington to West and from Washington Drive to West. It just seems like you would want to have different names. Rohm: The Washington portion is being dropped. O'Brien: Okay. Rohm: They are completely different. Moe: They are going to a 14th Place to alleviate the problem with the Washington. O'Brien: Okay. All right. Thank you. Moe: Any other questions? Do I have anybody signed up here? Okay. Let's see. We have two lists here. Connie. Would you like to come speak? Up here at the podium. For the record, please, state your name and address. Pethtel: My name the Connie Pethtel and I live at 1115 North Washington Place. I'm against the name change for this street. The change would create problems not only for those living in the household, but would affect our family and friends. In talking with four of our neighboring households affected by this possible change, none are for it. In fact, three of the four households have lengthy residents. One is 34 years. Actually, was the first house on the street. We will be there 30 years in December. And the last has 25 years. Two of the four households also have school age children that would need to learn a new address. North Washington Place is much easier to learn and say, instead of Northwest 14th Place. Especially if you have to spell it out. The cost involved with an address change are not small. I have done my research by calls and by talking to the agencies. The cost alone for our one household is estimated at 1,150 dollars to 2,530 dollars. I e-mailed the city a breakdown of this and you should have a copy of that. The cost is above and beyond what we should be required to pay for an existing address. The streets involved are 34 years old plus. The problems are occurring due to changes to the 911 system. From information given out in the October meeting, it appears that all the issues would be created in the next -- or would be corrected in the next two to three years with updates to the 911 system. Why change street names and create economic hardship on us when the 911 system would eventually accommodate the current issues. The streets involved do not overlap in street numbers. North Washington Place is 10 to 1115 and West Washington Drive is 1136 to 1150. Those Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 5 of 23 streets follow the north-south numbering sequence and they are north-southwest streets. The issues with 911 all occurred on West Washington Drive, not in Washington Place. Comments again were made at the October meeting that some deliveries from UPS or FedEx have had problems for West Washington Drive. I personally have had no problems with any of these in the 30 years at this address. Nor have we had problems with pizza deliveries. I personally called 911 stating that it was not an emergency call, but we requested what address they currently had for our land line. The address was correct and, therefore, I see no reason emergency vehicles would be dispatched incorrectly. In this economic time when the city is looking for ways to decrease their budget you are asking us as citizens to increase ours. The address change of North Washington Place is both unnecessary and economically detrimental to all residents. None of us want to move, but with this name change we are being requested -- no, forced to move and bear the brunt of those costs. Therefore, I request that you keep the street name of North Washington Place. Moe: Were you at the neighbor meeting? Pethtel: Yes, I was. Moe: Okay. Pethtel: And I was the one that was opposed. And in regard to that, the only two that were for it were from Washington Drive, not Washington Place. And at that meeting, unfortunately, my other neighbors were unable to attend. One of them had young kids. The husband went to school and does go to school on a regular basis at night. She was not going to bring three kids under school age here. One of the other ones, unfortunately, had just had her mother move in with her with a broken hip. There was no way she could leave her and come to the meeting either. The third one, her husband had a meeting at that time that was affiliated with his work and was mandatory. She, again, has three children, two school age, one nonschool age. She could not leave on a short notice either. But I did talk to those three and they were all not for the change. They are all against it. Moe: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Michael Bell. Bell: I'm Michael Bell. I'm from 1141 Washington Drive and I was also at the meeting. I was probably the one you thought was neutral. After sitting down and going through some things, my concern is not only the address change, but this economy where things like identity theft kind of issues that address changes could adversely affect some of those things if you don't get all your address changes to everybody notified correctly. And, therefore, this is -- oops, now I'm false ID and, therefore, flag everything along the way. So, that's my main concern with having to change the address is you go along the way that the address change will effect other items that you may have, like credit and all this other stuff, if you don't get all the proper notifications out to all the proper agencies. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 6 of 23 Moe: Okay. Thank you. Any questions, Commissioners? Okay. That was all that was signed up. If there is anyone else that would like to come forward? Ricks: Chairman Moe? Moe: Yes, ma'am. Ricks: Glenda Britz, the dispatcher from Ada County, would it be okay if she addresses -- Moe: Okay. Please come forward. Ricks: Great. Britz: Hi, there. My name is Glenda Britz. I'm a senior dispatcher with the Ada County Sheriff's Department with the dispatch center, with the 911 center. I have been there for 26 years and the reason this problem is coming up now is probably high on everybody's mind after this has been an established area for so many years. The best way I can explain that and the shortest way that I could explain that is, yes, we have changed the way that we do our dispatching in the past 18 months, where before everything that was entered into our system was done manually. The data was put in there manually. The methods of tracking down the information is so much easier now with technology, where most people in their lifetime only call -- the average person in their lifetime only calls 911 one time and I have done some checking since I originally wrote this concern to Terri to the City of Meridian that since this letter was written we haven't had anymore emergency calls from that particular area. However, it doesn't mean that it won't come up again. The problem that we have and the reason we could find this now is because, again, of the technology where I'm able to go -- when people say we have a problem here, we are able to go in and identify the problem so much easier and compare data and specifics, which is where we found with these three medical calls that we are talking about, which is our last three calls, that we found this problem with the Washingtons. How Washington -- how we came up with three different Washington --West Washington, a North Washington Place and, then, this section of West Washington that runs north and south, that should have never happened to begin with, but it did. And it did happen. Now, we have found the problem. The 1100 block of North Washington Place, for example, my concern --our concern is not the people who can call in and give us their exact address of North Washington Place or West Washington Street, be able to give us that information, the concern is the person who calls 911 who is very hysterical, who is scared, who cannot remember their address. If they have called on a hard line, yes, their address is up there for us to identify, but if they have called on a cell phone it's not up there for us to visually see that address. All we know is perhaps they can give us the numbers and Washington or they have somebody visiting their house who doesn't know if they are on north or if they are on place or if they are on west or street or drive. Those are the concerns that we have. If I type in an address, for example, for the 1100 block of North Washington Place and somebody is not able to tell me that they are on North Washington, that they are on the 1100 block of Washington. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 7 of 23 When we enter a call it has to be geo verified, meaning that when I enter 1100 block of Washington I enter that address, I get a box that tells me you have five options. You have two options in Boise and you have three options in Meridian. The Meridian ones with North Washington Drive, North Washington Place, and West Washington -- excuse me -- and West Washington Street. If they can't tell us which one they are on, it's more or less an assumption. We don't know. So, to alleviate the problem, my suggestion -- the dispatch center's suggestion is that we rename the streets. When she talked about the 1100 address on Washington Place being different than the addresses on Washington Drive, that may be true. We don't go by real addresses, we go by virtual addresses. We go by 1100 blocks. And the reason that is done is for growth. If you have a block, a parcel that eventually is going to be split, you have to have address ranges for those. That's why we go by hundred blocks, not specific exact addresses. I do most of the data input into the computer system. There is really no way that I could fix it. Again, if a person calls in and can tell us their exact address, the problem shouldn't happen. But, again, it's my concern for when they can't give us that address. Thank you. Moe: Thank you. Commissioners, any questions? Marshall: Yes. Moe: Mr. Marshall. O'Brien: No. Go ahead. Marshall: Mrs. Pethtel mentioned that she appeared to be under the impression that eventually, in what appeared to be somewhat short term, that the system was going to be able to be fixed. Is that accurate? Britz: I don't see how. If we are going to have an 1100 block -- both that section of Washington Drive over on the east side is a north-south street, as well as a Washington Place is a north-south street. They both use the same hundred block, that -- the 1100 block is a duplication of numbers which, as long as we have the Washingtons and we have 1100 block, you're going to have two parcels or two streets that are separated by a distance and they are going to exist. There is no fix for that as long as they say Washington. Marshall: Appreciate that. O'Brien: Mr. Chair? Moe: Mr. O'Brien. O'Brien: Ma'am. I still have the same question I had a little while ago. You're changing --deleting Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place and also Washington Drive to -- Northwest 9th Avenue. When you mentioned that a person that might call that is Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 8 of 23 somewhat hysterical, what -- wouldn't you have the same problem -- I mean you're just -- you're just exchanging one problem for another. They are both named west avenue or place, just like Washington was named Washington Drive or place. Why the same name? Britz: The name is not being the same. The Northwest 14th is 14th versus Washington and as far as any other section -- and there is already a Northwest Washington -- excuse me -- Northwest 14th that runs in Meridian. However, there is no duplication of an 1100 block on 14th. So, if we have a caller who is at the 1100 block of Northwest 14th Place, there is only one 1100 block or there would only be one 1100 block of Northwest 14th Place and if they can tell us that it's 1107 14th and they are in Meridian, there is going to be one Northwest 14th. We would get that little box I told you about. Does that explain it? O'Brien: Okay. I got it. Thanks. Moe: Okay. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Britz: Thank you. Moe: Does staff have any other comments or anything? Ricks: I'd like to answer some of the questions that were posed, if I might. Regarding the address concerns, I realize that is a concern. What we would do if this -- these proposed changes were approved, I would be sending out a letter such as this and in it -- I would e-mail it to you, but I would also -- excuse me -- I would send it to you, but I would a-mail the following like that day: Ada County assessor's office, the Meridian city billing services, Meridian fire department, Meridian police department, Ada County dispatch, which is the 911 call center, Idaho Power, Intermountain Gas, Qwest Communications, the United States Postal Services and the Ada County elections. Those are the things that -- those are the agencies that we notify immediately by a-mail. Now, the residents are still going to have to go to the post office physically and fill out a change of address form. We have made the post office aware that we were recommending the change. We asked them if there was going to be a problem with mail delivery. They said absolutely not. They assured us that the 18 months forwarding service would apply. So, for 12 months they would get their mail directly forwarded to them. For the next six months they would have alittle --one of those little yellow stickers put on there sending it back to whoever it was that mailed it to them at the old address saying this is their new address, you know, you need to send it there. I also know that finances are a real concern and so I -- there was some questions raised at the neighborhood meeting that I'd just like to address. I spoke to the DMV and they assured me that there is a no fee driver's license you can get. I mean you don't have to change your license -- you don't have to change your address on your license, you have to notify the DMV that you are changing addresses, but you don't have to get it changed. However, most people probably would. If you wanted to get it changed it would be $11.50 to have the driver's license changed to a new address. Also, if you're Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 9 of 23 within one year of the expiration date of your driver's license, you can just go ahead and get your new driver's license early and avoid that $11.50 fee. As far as car registrations, that would be three dollars to have that changed. We were talking about -- that maybe notarized copies would be needed for different official things that they needed to do, changes, and so we offered to send notarized copies. Normally we don't. We could send a letter such as this out to the residents, but we would notarize them for the nine homeowners in order for them to have that on hand at no cost. Also, as far as recording the deed, we were informed that nothing would have to be re-recorded. The deed is -- since the deeds and most other property documents carry the mailing address and the legal description of the property and so once we would notify the assessor's office, they will update the parcel data to reflect a new mailing address if necessary. So, we feel like we have -- you know, we realize there is not an easy fix here and we haven't done it on a whim, we know that it's -- it's not easy to ask people to change their street name after so many years, but we really do feel like it's in public safety's interest. Moe: Okay. Ricks: Oh. I'm sorry. Commissioner Moe, just one other thing. I just wanted to make sure that you had received the additional items I submitted later today from the police department and the Meridian fire department, their comments Moe: Yes, I did. Ricks: Okay. Moe: Did the other Commissioners get those as well? Okay. Thank you. Commissioners, any comments? Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I certainly empathize with people that will end up with a new street name, but I think that in the name of public safety I think that that always has to be very high on our list of concerns and we need to always keep that in mind and even though it's an inconvenience in the short run, in the long run I personally think that the community as a whole will be much better off. End of comment Moe: Thank you, sir. Mr. Marshall, any comments? Marshall: Yes, sir. I do have a lot of empathy for having to change addresses. It's a lot of work. I mean checks have to be changed. Financial data. You have to change your address in a number of different areas. Having moved several times in my lifetime I know it's a lot of work and there are some fees involved and I appreciate the fact the city is trying to say, you know, we are going to make sure we cover anything we can from our side. Having been listening to a 911 call before that was hysterical, listening to Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 10 of 23 somebody else try to put that in, it does concern me that somebody's not able to get out the proper street. It's Washington. It's Washington. You know, well, which one. I don't know. It's Washington. I have heard that -- heard somebody saying that into the phone. Not Washington Street, but been somewhat hysterical as they were speaking in the phone and, siding on public safety, if the 911 operators are having a difficult time getting to that locale, I agree with the land line, they should be able to find it, but with cell phones -- and I would assume a lot of people here probably have a cell phone on them and if you had a -- you know, most emergencies happen when I'm not at home and I have to side on the side of safety, that I want emergency vehicles to be able to get there, especially if I have small kids, which I do. They have been able to learn a new address when we moved and I absolutely want 911 at my beck and call and I want them to be able to find me, so I'm siding with the name change. Moe: Okay. Mr. O'Brien, any comments? O'Brien: Just to reiterate what's previously been said. I know the importance of being able to find an address in a hurry, being a -- past jobs as a police officer. I have to also side on the cause for safety reasons and it is -- I do empathize with all the people that are affected by it. I think it's necessary for everyone's health and safety that is being affected that we -- at least I feel that I need to approve the name change for that reason. Moe: Thank you very much. I won't belabor that, but, basically, I would say that I'm in agreement, basically, with the Commission. I know it's an inconvenience to have to go through and do the address changing and whatnot, but I guess the one thing I would also say is I appreciate the fact that it was brought forward, that there is -- there is a problem and that we are trying to take care of it before it does become a problem. So, at that note, Commissioners? Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I move that we close the public hearings on Items No 4 and 5 on our agenda. Marshall: Second. Moe: It's been moved to close the public hearings on Items 4 and 5, which are the name changing. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 11 of 23 Rohm: I move that we forward onto City Council recommending approval of the name changes of these -- Baird: Mr. Chair? Moe: Mr. Baird? Baird: I would recommend you take each item one at a time. Moe: Okay. Rohm: Oh. Baird: Recommend them separately. Canning: Mr. Chair? You're not a recommending body, you're the decision making body. Rohm: Oh. Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I move we approve the name change from North Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place by the City of Meridian, no changes. Marshall: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the name change from North Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I move that we approve the name change of West Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue by the City of Meridian, no changes. Marshall: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the name change from West Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. Thank you. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 12 of 23 MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 6: Public Hearing: CUP 09-010 Request for Conditional Use Permit approval to expand the existing funeral home use to include a crematorium for Accent Funeral Home Crematorium by Randy Arzen - 1311 N. Main Street: Moe: Commissioners, I'd like to get an approval to the request for a withdrawal on the public hearing for CUP 09-010 for Accent Funeral Home. Rohm: Mr. Chairman, I move that we approve the withdrawal of CUP 09-010. Marshall: Second. Moe: All those in favor of the withdrawal from CUP 09-010 say aye. Opposed. That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 7: Public Hearing: RZ 09-004 Request for Rezone of 5.41 acres from R-4 (Medium-Low Density Residential) to an R-8 (Medium Density Residential) zone for Cabella Creek by Coleman Homes, LLC -north side of E. Victory Road, west of S. Mesa Way and east of S. Bailey Way: Moe: At this time I'd like to open the public hearing on RZ 09-004 for Cabella Creek for the sole purpose of continuing the hearing to the regularly scheduled PZ meeting of December the 3rd, 2009. Can I get a motion to continue that hearing? Rohm: So moved. O'Brien: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to continue RZ 09-004 for Cabella Creek to the regularly scheduled meeting of December the 3rd. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 8: Public Hearing: ZOA 09-004 Request to amend the City's current standards for signs and to amend the following chapters: definitions, measurements, nonconforming, outdoor lighting and conditional uses when such sections address sign standards for Sign Code Text Amendment by City of Meridian Planning Department: Moe: Next item on the list I'd like to now open the public hearing on ZOA 09-004 for the request to amend the city's current standards for signs and to amend the following Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 13 of 23 chapters: Definitions. Measurements. Nonconforming. Outdoor lighting. Conditional uses. Such sections address signage standards for the signing code text amendment and start with the staff report. Vigil: Thank you, Chairman Moe, Members of the Commission. The next application before you is an amendment for the Meridian city sign code and associated sections you mentioned when you opened the public hearing. My first slide explains the reconstruction of the sign code to be more consistent with the rest of the UDC, which is Title 11 of the Meridian city code. The reconstruction will make it easier for staff to be able to interpret and make it easier for people who read the rest of the code to understand as well. A few of our goals for rewriting this sign code was to make the sign code easier to interpret and understand, like I mentioned. The sign code easier to enforce -- Moe: Could Ijust -- could I ask you just to hold up one more time. I just want to one more time -- going through the sign-up sheets I noted that we had two people that were signed up for the Cabella Creek. Hopefully, you understood that that will be heard at our next meeting of the 3rd of December. Okay? I'm notifying right now. No, it will be heard on the 3rd. Canning: Chairman Moe, I will talk to him. Moe: Okay. Thank you. Vigil: And one of our third goals I have mentioned is to make the sign code more equitable. We refined and condensed sections of the code. We cleaned up uncertainties and ambiguities and we cleaned up the related sign code sections, as we mentioned before. Once the rewrite of our sign code, we have added some new types of signs and one of them is portable signs within the downtown area, which I'm excited to tell you guys about a little bit later in my presentation. Temporary signs are now defined as limited duration signs, with new proposed standards. Changeable copy signs have been added to all districts for allowed nonresidential uses and I will expand more on what a changeable copy sign is later in my presentation as well. And, then, we also added a new sign --anew section for vehicle signs, which I'm excited to tell you about, too. Okay. So, the first -- the first -- the portable signs in the downtown area that I was telling about is the new section that I'm really excited for our business owners within the downtown area. You're all familiar with seeing the A frames and the T frame signs in front of our local businesses here in the downtown core and before they have all needed a temporary sign permit, not to exceed the 90 days until recently where the Council approved 180 days. Well, now our downtown businesses will be able to have those portable signs with an approved permit all the time. So, they will not be considered a temporary sign anymore, they will be permanent signs for our downtown businesses. They will be allowed for retail uses, restaurants, drinking establishments and personal services. So, hair salons, tanning salons, the personal services we have a number of within our downtown area, they will be allowed one portable sign per entrance and no more than one per street frontage. So, if they are on a corner they Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 14 of 23 have the potential for two if they want them. They cannot exceed six square feet -- or, excuse me, eight square feet and we only look at one side when we are calculating that eight square feet. So, I have talked to some of our downtown business owners and they are very excited that we added this section to our code, because they really struggled with not having the signage, except for maybe on their window, because they don't have the opportunity for freestanding signs, really, because they have a sidewalk directly in front of their business. Sorry. That is really fast. The next section is the limited duration signs. This is what used to be called temporary signs. And it was 90 days per year. Council approved staff emergency text amendment fora 180 days until this code amendment that we are going through now is adopted. When we went to the committee, the committee felt 90 was still too little and that 120 would be more appropriate and that 180 was more like having a permanent sign, instead of temporary in nature. Another change that we made for the standard is a maximum background area of 20 square feet, instead of 16 square feet. That was one of our biggest complaints from people is that 16 square feet is just not big enough for their consumers to read and 20 square feet -- the committee wanted to do 24 square feet, but 24 square feet was 50 percent increase and staff just felt that was a really large increase, so we split the difference and went -- kept the 20 square feet. Another change that we made were banner signs for buildings. Currently what is codified is if you want to put a banner on your building you're allowed three percent of that elevation if you have an approved wall sign and if you don't have an approved wall sign you're allowed five percent. So, we would need to know the height and the width of the building and times it by the percentage allowed to be able to tell them what size they can have. We changed this to straight numbers of 32 square feet for buildings under 100,000 square floor area and 64 square feet for buildings over 100,000 square foot area. Still they are allowed one per business at any one time and a permit is required for any minimum duration signs. Changeable copy signs are -- are in the signs that the copy can be changed on, whether it's electronic, LED, or manual. We just changed them all to changeable copy signs. So, what we did is we opened this up for all zoning districts for allowed nonresidential uses. So, a church in a residential zone have the potential to apply for a changeable copy sign if they want one. Their standards are more stringent than if you're in a commercial zone, but they still have the opportunity to apply for them if they want one. We were having many churches come in and schools come in who want the opportunity to give messages out to the community and parents. Currently they are only allowed in three zones, the C-G, I-L, and I-H, and this was well received by the committee to change this for all zones for allowed nonresidential uses. And I mentioned before that we have a new section for vehicle signs. We were having problems with people constructing huge four by eight moving -- six by eight signs on flatbed trailers and hauling them around and we know that we needed to address the issue and so with this new section of the vehicle signs we put on there that -- well, standards are that they cannot extend two inches past the property body of the vehicle and it only applies to fleet vehicles. So, this way we don't have a huge structure off a flatbed trailer driving down the street and causing safety issues. They do not need a permit for these signs and they do not -- it does not apply to interior signs that are less than two square feet. So, for sale signs or anything like that it does not apply to. I'd like to mention who the committee members were, just so you're all aware. We had Brad Bryant from Bryant Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 15 of 23 Ideas. City Council President Charlie Rountree. Dan Clark of Valley Shepherd Church of the Nazarene. Doug Anderson with Lytle Electric Signs. Lieutenant Overton with the PD. John Hoffart with code enforcement. Lacy Tock with code enforcement. Michael Marcheschi with Brighton Corporation. Tamara Thompson with Landmark Development Group. Teri Sackman with the Chamber of Commerce. And our staff Anna, myself, and Emily Kane. So, before you in your outline there is one outstanding issue that I did not fix in my staff report before I sent it out. It's about the height of signs underneath of the canopy. The canopy is where a vehicle can actually drive under and we said the maximum he needs is 13 and a half feet and I had 16 and a half feet in there. For esthetic purposes we would like to change it to the 13 and a half feet and if the Commission so agrees, I have include on page two of your outline some language to help with your motion. And with that I will stand for some questions. Moe: Thank you very much. Any questions? I did note that we got overruled by the Council in pretty much the one thing I thought would happen, they went to 180 days and now they want to change it to 120 when it was 90, but I wish somebody would make up their mind. Anyway -- I don't like it when we lose out here, see, you know, but -- Vigil: Sorry. I think you were overruled because of the people that actually went and testified at the Council. I don't think many people knew it was going before Commission. Moe: I think you did really well tonight when you said the emergency. That took care of Council right there on that and that's fine. Vigil: Thank you. Moe: I do have one vote, see, you know. Any questions? Marshall: I do have a couple questions. Moe: Mr. Marshall. Marshall: Well, one question. Specifically on the vehicle signs. Two inches off the body work? What about like taxi signs that extend four to six inches off the top of the body or like Pizza Hut and all those pizza delivery guys that put the metallic -- the temporary magnetic sign that probably extends up eight to 12 inches? Vigil: I spoke with Mrs. Kane in the city attorney's office about this. There are fleet vehicles, they are not -- they come off at night and they have to recharge and get put back on. So, they would not be affected by this vehicle sign code. We did talk about that in committee as well. Marshall: The taxi signs. I'm talking about -- Vigil: Oh, not -- not taxis, but the pizza guys and -- Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 16 of 23 Marshall: Okay. Vigil: And taxi signs are actually a part of the original body of a vehicle is what I was told by Brad Bryant during committee, so, yeah, I don't know. But Emily said they would be fleet vehicles and would not be affected. Am I missing something, Anna? No? Canning: Chairman Moe, Commissioner Marshall, tree houses don't meet code either. Sometimes we just have to make judgment calls and this was one of those where we knew we would have to be making a judgment call, but -- Marshall: Okay. All right. O'Brien: Mr. Chair? Moe: Mr. O'Brien. O'Brien: So, along the same vein, that also means that driver -- student driver signs, if they -- the individual owns the vehicle that teaches the driver's ed, they put the signs up on top of their vehicles temporarily, so does this also apply to that -- they are not a fleet car, so -- Canning: I would say that's a safety concern. Vigil: Yeah. Moe: You want those bigger, do you? Vigil: They would be in the same category as the pizza guy for sure. O'Brien: Okay. Thank you. Vigil: You can't win them all, I guess. Moe: Any other questions? Okay. Great. We do have a couple of people signed up. Virginia Cunningham. Say it again, state your name and address for the record, please. Cunningham: My name is Virginia Cunningham. Moe: You just need to speak up. Cunningham: 101 Rigate in Meridian. I'm an employee sales rep for the Lytle Sign Company here in Meridian and Kristi was nice enough to extend a copy of the draft of the sign code to me and there was one -- I think she did a wonderful job, her department and the committee that worked on it. I definitely see a big change in the streamlining process and it will make it easier for us as well to explain to business Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 17 of 23 owners, you know, what they can and cannot have, so -- the one thing that I thought after I had looked at the sign code was -- and I just wanted to put it before you -- is projecting signs. They are only allowed currently in a couple of the zones that are here downtown and close by and there are some new shopping centers in different areas that are being made to be pedestrian friendly, such as the Mercado at Bridgetower, and they would like to be able to have projecting signs, so that when people are at one end of the shopping center, that they can see, oh, there is an ice cream shop all the way down at the other end, rather than having to walk clear out into the parking lot to look at the actual front of the building. So, I worked with changing their sign program, their planned sign program, to get some projecting signs allowed there and nobody was opposed to it, so -- and I had asked why are projecting signs not allowed anyplace but downtown and nobody really had an answer for it and just kind of said, well, the code is perhaps, you know, outdated. So, projecting signs would, of course, need to be considered in the overall square footage that's allowed, so if they are going to use a projecting sign that take footage away from a fascia sign I think would be the fair way to do that. But -- instead of having somebody have to come from a variance or to change their entire planned sign program, because they are not in the downtown area and they are trying to, you know, have a nice pedestrian friendly shopping center and I would ask that you would consider to open that projecting signs to other areas. Moe: Okay. Cunningham: Any questions? Rohm: Sounds reasonable. Moe: Thank you very much. Cunningham: Thank you. Moe: Kathy Ritz. Did I say that right? Ritz: Reets, Rites, Ritz -- we will take any of it. We pronounce it Ritz. My name is Kathy Ritz. I own Renewed Expressions Consignment in Meridian. We are located at 18 -- oh. My physical address is 12374 West Goldenrod in Boise and store address is 1835 West Cherry Lane. We are located just west of Linder Road on Cherry Lane and across the street from Pizza Hut. The challenge my business has is that we are right at the edge of a subdivision. So, the traffic that is heading east on Cherry Lane doesn't see my business until they are basically past it, if they see it at all. So, the temporary signage is helpful for us. I interface with my customers face to face, I ask them how they find us. Number one is by referral. Number two is when I'm able to have the temporary sign. And I'm just requesting that you pass this ordinance or whatever you call it and the 120 days would be helpful for us as far as my business is concerned on the temporary signage. Any questions? Moe: Any questions, Commissioners? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 18 of 23 Ritz: Thank you. Moe: Thank you very much. That was all that was signed up. I do see a couple other people in the audience, so -- and they are not rushing up here to speak, so I think that would be it, Commissioners. Canning: Chairman Moe? Moe: Yes. Can you answer the projecting sign question? Vigil: Sure. You bet. Projecting signs, as it's codified now, are only allowed in the Old Town area and when the code was written we didn't have TN-C and TN-C are going to be -- is going to be more for our pedestrian areas and we will start seeing that more when people start to do annexations more, but Virginia has a good point of some commercial areas that have pedestrian friendly environments and once the pedestrian friendly environment -- we only have maybe one or two. I can't think of a bunch of them off the top of my head, but this could always be addressed as an alternative compliance as well. So, they did have -- if you wanted to open it up to all districts -- but there should be for pedestrian friendly environment. So, like a C-G zone or a C-N zone or something, they could apply for an alternative compliance along with their sign permit, but there is another option for the Commission. Moe: Thank you very much. Rohm: They have to come before the Commission or just the staff? Vigil: It's staff level and it's a quick application. We are talking a few days, typical. Canning: Chairman Moe? May I add to that, Chairman Moe? Moe: Okay. Canning: For those who probably aren't too familiar with alternative compliance, we do it fairly -- I shouldn't have said that. We do it fairly often when folks need some flexibility in landscape provisions or -- or other things. There is a whole list of items we can do alternative compliance on. We are required to make findings for the alternative compliance. They need to generally fit within one. And I wanted to read one of them to you. It says the proposed design includes innovative design features based on new urbanism, neo-traditional design, or other architectural and/or site designs that promote walk-able and mixed use neighborhoods. So, I think the alternative compliance mechanism for that would be great. Kristi and I had talked about this earlier and --and although we do think it's appropriate in the neighborhood districts, the reason we didn't want to open it up to everything is to get that -- an awkward mix perhaps of wall signs with projecting signs and -- and may not look as clean in some of the traditional commercial districts as we would like. So, that was our thinking on not opening it up to Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 19 of 23 all districts at this point. But it would be a great alternative compliance that we could add. I think that would be a good -- a really good addition to the code. Moe: Okay. Canning: Thank you. Moe: Thank you very much. Any other questions of staff? Okay. Commissioners, any comments or motions or anything anybody wants to make? O'Brien: Mr. Chair? So, the -- the only modification that I see that wasn't on the original proposal was to modify -- excuse me -- modify the size of the canopy sign from 16 to 13 and a half. Were there other modifications that are proposed? Moe: But before -- if you're going to do that, we need to close the public hearing prior to that. Any comments, Mr. Marshall? Marshall: I had a couple comments. I'm really torn by projecting signs. I like the projecting signs and I think we desperately want to encourage walk-able space. But I'm also torn by staff's point that if you laid that out there for everybody in C-G, you know, you can get a -- you could end up with an awful mix if it's fully approved across the board. I wish there was some way we could get out that we want to encourage those walk-able spaces and, yes, I like the Old Town projecting signs, to be honest with you. think it's quaint, it helps in being able to walk down the sidewalk and know what's coming up is great. But I agree I would not want to see a C-G district that has a couple projecting signs and some up back in here and I'd like to see some uniformity in there, how we address that. I don't know how we encourage the walk-able design with the projecting signs. Right now I think staff's come up with the best alternative right now and until we can come up with somebody else I think alternative compliance is probably the best way to go right now. Moe: I was going to say, with them doing that, the possibility is there and if that goes forward with, you know, a couple different businesses and whatnot, that that is seen, therefore -- especially since they are going to go through the sign shops to have that done, that -- the ability to do that is out there at that point and, then, you know, kind streamline it -- we don't want to put it wholesale, simply because we don't want it everywhere. But at least we have the possibility that way going through alternative compliance. Marshall: Absolutely. Moe: Any other comments, Commissioners? Rohm: No comments. Moe: Anybody want to make motions? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 20 of 23 Marshall: I will make one more comment real quick. I am kind of disappointed that we went to 180 days on the temporary signage. To be honest, I'm not big on temporary signs. I know it helps certain businesses, but overall I am against it and I already had my diatribe on that. Moe: But as I understand it -- Marshall: It's 180 right now and it's going back to 120, so a move in the right direction in my book, so -- Moe: Well, we can't fight the fight that we lost. Marshall: Right. Moe: But if you want to go to 120, you're okay there. Marshall: No. That's just my comment. I was putting that on the record where I stand. Moe: Okay. And you made that on the record that night, too, as well. Marshall: Yes, I did. Moe: I remember that very well. Marshall: And I am not repeating it. Now, I would like to make a motion that we close the public hearing on ZOA 09-004. Rohm: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to close the public hearing on ZOA 09-004. All those in favor? Opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Moe: Mr. O'Brien, it sounds like you kind of were ready to go and understanding what -- O'Brien: I wasn't going to make a motion, then, I was just having the question in case the opportunity came up and it has. So, Mr. Chair? Moe: Mr. O'Brien. O'Brien: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to recommend approval to the City Council file ZOA 09-004 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of November 19th, 2009, with the following modification: That the Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 21 of 23 canopy sign -- canopy type sign be moved from 16 feet -- square feet to 13.5 square feet. Moe: Well, no, it's square footage to clearance based -- O'Brien: I'm sorry. Moe: -- on 16 and a half feet to 13 and a half feet. O'Brien: That's right. Marshall: I will second that. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve ZOA 09-004 as amended. All those in favor say aye. Opposed. That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Moe: Commissioners? Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I move we adjourn. Marshall: Second. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Canning: Commissioner Moe, did you -- I'm sorry, I got distracted at the end on the clearance. We had a brief conversation. Did you include the alternative compliance? Moe: Yes. Canning: Do you not want to? Oh, you included it? Okay. I didn't hear it. Okay. Moe: Yes. I said as amended. Canning: Okay. Moe: And he had amended it in his motion. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 22 of 23 Baird: No. That was just for the clearance. Canning: That was just the clearance. Moe: Oh. Canning: Did you want the alternative compliance for the projecting signs? Rohm: Oh, I didn't know that that had to be added to the motion. I thought it was already available. Moe: Right. Canning: No. Moe: Okay. Canning: I apologize for not making that more clear. Marshall: Can we reopen the hearing? Moe: We need to -- first of all, we need to open the meeting and -- so, at this time I'm going to reopen the P&Z hearing for November the 19th and go back to Item ZOA 09- 004 and ask the maker of the motion if they would like to amend their motion to include alternative compliance. O'Brien: Okay. So, Mr. Chair? Moe: Mr. O'Brien. O'Brien: I'd like to make a motion to -- after considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to recommend approval to the City Council of file number ZOA 09- 004 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of November 19th, 2009, with the following modifications: To change the code section 11-3D-8A-15D to read: Any hanging sign under canopy shall have a minimum vertical clearance of 13 and one half feet from 16 vertical feet under any driving surface. Second, to include alternative compliance for projecting signs. End of motion. Marshall: Does that cover it? Canning: Yes. Marshall; Just requesting alternative -- okay. I'll second that, then. Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve ZOA 05-004 as amended. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission November 19, 2009 Page 23 of 23 MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Canning: Commissioner Moe, before you close the public hearing, can I note for the record that we did have one person leave, the person that testified on the number of days for temporary signs has -- or for limited duration signs has, left, but that the person testifying in favor of projecting signs was in the room still when we reopened the hearing. Thank you. Moe: Thank you very much. Rohm: Mr. Chairman? Moe: Mr. Rohm. Rohm: I move we adjourn. Marshall: I will second that for a second time. Moe: It's been moved and seconded for a second time. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Moe: So, we are now going to adjourn at 8:04. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:04 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) APPROVED: i ~ ~s~ DAVID MOE -CHAIRMAN DATE APPROVED ATTEST: ~ - O~ ,~ JAYCE . HOLMAN, CITY CLERK :~ C~~~~9'L ~, SEAL !: O T 1 S~ . ~` ,q Q. ' 9 c ,,~'