2009 11-19Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting November 19, 2009
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of November 19, 2009, was
called to order at 7:00 p.m. by Chairman David Moe.
Members Present: Chairman David Moe, Commissioner Joe Marshall, Commissioner
Tom O'Brien, and Commissioner Michael Rohm.
Members Absent: Commissioner Wendy Newton-Huckabay.
Others Present: Ted Baird, Nancy Radford, Anna Canning, Kristi Vigil, Teri Ricks, and
Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance:
Roll-call
Wendy Newton-Huckabay X Tom O'Brien
X Michael Rohm -Vice Chairman X Joe Marshall
X David Moe -Chairman
Moe: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to welcome you to the regularly
scheduled meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission for the 19th of November.
I'd like to call this meeting to order and ask the clerk to call roll, please.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda:
Moe: Thank you very much. Next item on the agenda is the adoption of the agenda.
Commissioners, there are -- and the public, there are a couple changes to the agenda.
We will just go over those. First off, Item No. 6 on the agenda, the applicant has
requested a withdrawal of that, so we will not -- we will take care of that when it comes
up in order. And, then, Item No. 7, the applicant there has requested a continuance to
the -- our regularly scheduled meeting of the 3rd of December and we will take that up
in order as well. Other than that, the agenda would stay the same. So, could I get a
motion to accept the agenda as noted?
Rohm: So moved.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the adoption of the agenda. All those
in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 3: Consent Agenda:
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November 19, 2009
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A. Approve Minutes of November 5, 2009 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting:
Moe: Commissioners, the next item is the Consent Agenda. On that agenda we have
one item, which is the approval of minutes from our November 5th, 2009, Planning and
Zoning Commission meeting. Any questions, comments to that at all? Could I, then,
get a motion to accept that?
Marshall: So moved.
O'Brien: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to accept the agenda. All those in favor say aye.
Opposed. That motion carries. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Moe: Before we get started in our public hearing phase, we have got some new faces
out in the audience, so I was going to kind of go through the format of how we hold our
meeting here. I will open the hearing for the project and at that point ask the staff to
give a brief overview of the project and after which they are done I will, then, ask the
applicant to come forward. The applicant will have 15 minutes to explain any additional
information from what the staff had discussed and -- or other comments that they think
are pertinent to the Commission. After that 15 minutes there are sign-up sheets in the
back that the public can sign up for to talk to any of these hearings. You will be given
three minutes time period to express your opinion and ask questions and whatnot. After
the names have been taken care of on the list I will ask one more time if there is anyone
else that would like to speak in regard to the hearing. If none, then, I will, then, ask the
applicant to come back forward and, basically, rebut any information that was discussed
during the public hearings. After that is done, then, we would, then, close the public
hearing and, then, the Commission would act on that hearing. So, very simple.
Item 4: Continued Public Hearing from October 15, 2009: Request for a
Street Name Change from N. Washington Place to N. West 14cn Place
by the City of Meridian:
Item 5: Continued Public Hearing from October 15, 2009: Request for a
Street Name Change from W. Washington Drive to N. West 9cn
Avenue by the City of Meridian:
Moe: So, therefore, I would now like to open the continued public hearing on the
request for a street name change from North Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place
by the City of Meridian and talk to the staff and that would be the applicant as well, so --
Ricks: Okay. Good evening, Chairman Moe and Members of the Commission. I'd like
to thank you for the opportunity to bring this matter before you tonight. We have been
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November 19, 2009
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notified by Glenda Britz, senior dispatcher for the Ada County Sheriff's Department, of
an area located in the Phillips and Gregory No. 2 Subdivisions causing concern for
emergency services. Specifically there are three streets carrying the core name of
Washington. These streets are located adjacent to one another. They are Washington
Street, Washington Drive, and Washington Place. In addition, each of these streets
have address numbers in the 1100 block range. There have been seven emergency
calls to this area in the last year, three of them being medical emergencies. On two
occasions medical personnel were originally dispatched to West Washington Place,
rather than West Washington Drive. The third call was initially dispatched to West
Washington Street, rather than West Washington Drive. It is our concern that without
correcting this situation there could be major delays in response time when critical
emergency services are next needed in the area. It is the recommendation of the Ada
County street naming committee that the following street names be changed.
Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place. Washington Drive to Northwest 9th
Avenue. While several other proposals have been considered, changing house
numbers, changing street name directional, and attempting to solve the issue in-house
within the Ada County dispatch area, it is our recommendation that changing the above-
mentioned two streets affecting nine households would be the most effective and
prudent action. The recommendation to change Washington Place and Washington
Drive, as opposed to changing Washington Street, comes after review of the following
factors: Twenty-seven homes are located along West Washington Street. Five homes
are located along Washington Place. Four homes are located along Washington Drive.
In addition to the notification of a public hearing being held, letters were sent to all
affected residents inviting them to attend a neighborhood meeting held at City Hall on
October 28th at 7:00 p.m. Both these streets in question are located in well established
neighborhoods in subdivisions recorded over 35 years ago. Because of this we don't
make this recommendation lightly. The purpose of the meeting was to provide a less
formal atmosphere to discuss resident concerns, as well as offer the opportunity to have
representatives from Ada County dispatch, Meridian fire department, Meridian police
department, and Development Services on hand to answer any questions. Four
residents were in attendance. At the end of the meeting two residents approved of the
proposed change, one opposed, and one remained neutral. I stand for any questions at
this time and if afterwards I could ask permission to introduce Glenda Britz, who is a
senior dispatcher with 26 years of experience with the Ada County dispatch.
Moe: Okay. Well, for the record before that I want to go ahead and -- I had opened the
hearing for the first name change, I'm going to go ahead and since we are kind of doing
them together --
Ricks: Okay.
Moe: -- I'm going to open the other one for the request for North -- or, excuse me, West
Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue as well. So, any questions, Commissioners,
of staff so far?
O'Brien: I just have -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
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November 19, 2009
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Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: One question, Mr. Chair. So, you're changing Washington Place to Northwest
14th Place; is that correct?
Moe: Yes. The North Washington Place to Northwest 14th.
O'Brien: Aren't we kind of like having the same problem with -- I mean they are both
similar names again, from Washington to West and from Washington Drive to West. It
just seems like you would want to have different names.
Rohm: The Washington portion is being dropped.
O'Brien: Okay.
Rohm: They are completely different.
Moe: They are going to a 14th Place to alleviate the problem with the Washington.
O'Brien: Okay. All right. Thank you.
Moe: Any other questions? Do I have anybody signed up here? Okay. Let's see. We
have two lists here. Connie. Would you like to come speak? Up here at the podium.
For the record, please, state your name and address.
Pethtel: My name the Connie Pethtel and I live at 1115 North Washington Place. I'm
against the name change for this street. The change would create problems not only for
those living in the household, but would affect our family and friends. In talking with four
of our neighboring households affected by this possible change, none are for it. In fact,
three of the four households have lengthy residents. One is 34 years. Actually, was the
first house on the street. We will be there 30 years in December. And the last has 25
years. Two of the four households also have school age children that would need to
learn a new address. North Washington Place is much easier to learn and say, instead
of Northwest 14th Place. Especially if you have to spell it out. The cost involved with
an address change are not small. I have done my research by calls and by talking to
the agencies. The cost alone for our one household is estimated at 1,150 dollars to
2,530 dollars. I e-mailed the city a breakdown of this and you should have a copy of
that. The cost is above and beyond what we should be required to pay for an existing
address. The streets involved are 34 years old plus. The problems are occurring due
to changes to the 911 system. From information given out in the October meeting, it
appears that all the issues would be created in the next -- or would be corrected in the
next two to three years with updates to the 911 system. Why change street names and
create economic hardship on us when the 911 system would eventually accommodate
the current issues. The streets involved do not overlap in street numbers. North
Washington Place is 10 to 1115 and West Washington Drive is 1136 to 1150. Those
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November 19, 2009
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streets follow the north-south numbering sequence and they are north-southwest
streets. The issues with 911 all occurred on West Washington Drive, not in Washington
Place. Comments again were made at the October meeting that some deliveries from
UPS or FedEx have had problems for West Washington Drive. I personally have had
no problems with any of these in the 30 years at this address. Nor have we had
problems with pizza deliveries. I personally called 911 stating that it was not an
emergency call, but we requested what address they currently had for our land line.
The address was correct and, therefore, I see no reason emergency vehicles would be
dispatched incorrectly. In this economic time when the city is looking for ways to
decrease their budget you are asking us as citizens to increase ours. The address
change of North Washington Place is both unnecessary and economically detrimental to
all residents. None of us want to move, but with this name change we are being
requested -- no, forced to move and bear the brunt of those costs. Therefore, I request
that you keep the street name of North Washington Place.
Moe: Were you at the neighbor meeting?
Pethtel: Yes, I was.
Moe: Okay.
Pethtel: And I was the one that was opposed. And in regard to that, the only two that
were for it were from Washington Drive, not Washington Place. And at that meeting,
unfortunately, my other neighbors were unable to attend. One of them had young kids.
The husband went to school and does go to school on a regular basis at night. She
was not going to bring three kids under school age here. One of the other ones,
unfortunately, had just had her mother move in with her with a broken hip. There was
no way she could leave her and come to the meeting either. The third one, her
husband had a meeting at that time that was affiliated with his work and was mandatory.
She, again, has three children, two school age, one nonschool age. She could not
leave on a short notice either. But I did talk to those three and they were all not for the
change. They are all against it.
Moe: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Michael Bell.
Bell: I'm Michael Bell. I'm from 1141 Washington Drive and I was also at the meeting. I
was probably the one you thought was neutral. After sitting down and going through
some things, my concern is not only the address change, but this economy where
things like identity theft kind of issues that address changes could adversely affect some
of those things if you don't get all your address changes to everybody notified correctly.
And, therefore, this is -- oops, now I'm false ID and, therefore, flag everything along the
way. So, that's my main concern with having to change the address is you go along the
way that the address change will effect other items that you may have, like credit and all
this other stuff, if you don't get all the proper notifications out to all the proper agencies.
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November 19, 2009
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Moe: Okay. Thank you. Any questions, Commissioners? Okay. That was all that was
signed up. If there is anyone else that would like to come forward?
Ricks: Chairman Moe?
Moe: Yes, ma'am.
Ricks: Glenda Britz, the dispatcher from Ada County, would it be okay if she
addresses --
Moe: Okay. Please come forward.
Ricks: Great.
Britz: Hi, there. My name is Glenda Britz. I'm a senior dispatcher with the Ada County
Sheriff's Department with the dispatch center, with the 911 center. I have been there for
26 years and the reason this problem is coming up now is probably high on everybody's
mind after this has been an established area for so many years. The best way I can
explain that and the shortest way that I could explain that is, yes, we have changed the
way that we do our dispatching in the past 18 months, where before everything that was
entered into our system was done manually. The data was put in there manually. The
methods of tracking down the information is so much easier now with technology, where
most people in their lifetime only call -- the average person in their lifetime only calls 911
one time and I have done some checking since I originally wrote this concern to Terri to
the City of Meridian that since this letter was written we haven't had anymore
emergency calls from that particular area. However, it doesn't mean that it won't come
up again. The problem that we have and the reason we could find this now is because,
again, of the technology where I'm able to go -- when people say we have a problem
here, we are able to go in and identify the problem so much easier and compare data
and specifics, which is where we found with these three medical calls that we are talking
about, which is our last three calls, that we found this problem with the Washingtons.
How Washington -- how we came up with three different Washington --West
Washington, a North Washington Place and, then, this section of West Washington that
runs north and south, that should have never happened to begin with, but it did. And it
did happen. Now, we have found the problem. The 1100 block of North Washington
Place, for example, my concern --our concern is not the people who can call in and
give us their exact address of North Washington Place or West Washington Street, be
able to give us that information, the concern is the person who calls 911 who is very
hysterical, who is scared, who cannot remember their address. If they have called on a
hard line, yes, their address is up there for us to identify, but if they have called on a cell
phone it's not up there for us to visually see that address. All we know is perhaps they
can give us the numbers and Washington or they have somebody visiting their house
who doesn't know if they are on north or if they are on place or if they are on west or
street or drive. Those are the concerns that we have. If I type in an address, for
example, for the 1100 block of North Washington Place and somebody is not able to tell
me that they are on North Washington, that they are on the 1100 block of Washington.
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November 19, 2009
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When we enter a call it has to be geo verified, meaning that when I enter 1100 block of
Washington I enter that address, I get a box that tells me you have five options. You
have two options in Boise and you have three options in Meridian. The Meridian ones
with North Washington Drive, North Washington Place, and West Washington -- excuse
me -- and West Washington Street. If they can't tell us which one they are on, it's more
or less an assumption. We don't know. So, to alleviate the problem, my suggestion --
the dispatch center's suggestion is that we rename the streets. When she talked about
the 1100 address on Washington Place being different than the addresses on
Washington Drive, that may be true. We don't go by real addresses, we go by virtual
addresses. We go by 1100 blocks. And the reason that is done is for growth. If you
have a block, a parcel that eventually is going to be split, you have to have address
ranges for those. That's why we go by hundred blocks, not specific exact addresses. I
do most of the data input into the computer system. There is really no way that I could
fix it. Again, if a person calls in and can tell us their exact address, the problem
shouldn't happen. But, again, it's my concern for when they can't give us that address.
Thank you.
Moe: Thank you. Commissioners, any questions?
Marshall: Yes.
Moe: Mr. Marshall.
O'Brien: No. Go ahead.
Marshall: Mrs. Pethtel mentioned that she appeared to be under the impression that
eventually, in what appeared to be somewhat short term, that the system was going to
be able to be fixed. Is that accurate?
Britz: I don't see how. If we are going to have an 1100 block -- both that section of
Washington Drive over on the east side is a north-south street, as well as a Washington
Place is a north-south street. They both use the same hundred block, that -- the 1100
block is a duplication of numbers which, as long as we have the Washingtons and we
have 1100 block, you're going to have two parcels or two streets that are separated by a
distance and they are going to exist. There is no fix for that as long as they say
Washington.
Marshall: Appreciate that.
O'Brien: Mr. Chair?
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: Ma'am. I still have the same question I had a little while ago. You're changing
--deleting Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place and also Washington Drive to --
Northwest 9th Avenue. When you mentioned that a person that might call that is
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November 19, 2009
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somewhat hysterical, what -- wouldn't you have the same problem -- I mean you're just
-- you're just exchanging one problem for another. They are both named west avenue
or place, just like Washington was named Washington Drive or place. Why the same
name?
Britz: The name is not being the same. The Northwest 14th is 14th versus Washington
and as far as any other section -- and there is already a Northwest Washington --
excuse me -- Northwest 14th that runs in Meridian. However, there is no duplication of
an 1100 block on 14th. So, if we have a caller who is at the 1100 block of Northwest
14th Place, there is only one 1100 block or there would only be one 1100 block of
Northwest 14th Place and if they can tell us that it's 1107 14th and they are in Meridian,
there is going to be one Northwest 14th. We would get that little box I told you about.
Does that explain it?
O'Brien: Okay. I got it. Thanks.
Moe: Okay. Any other questions? Thank you very much.
Britz: Thank you.
Moe: Does staff have any other comments or anything?
Ricks: I'd like to answer some of the questions that were posed, if I might. Regarding
the address concerns, I realize that is a concern. What we would do if this -- these
proposed changes were approved, I would be sending out a letter such as this and in it
-- I would e-mail it to you, but I would also -- excuse me -- I would send it to you, but I
would a-mail the following like that day: Ada County assessor's office, the Meridian city
billing services, Meridian fire department, Meridian police department, Ada County
dispatch, which is the 911 call center, Idaho Power, Intermountain Gas, Qwest
Communications, the United States Postal Services and the Ada County elections.
Those are the things that -- those are the agencies that we notify immediately by a-mail.
Now, the residents are still going to have to go to the post office physically and fill out a
change of address form. We have made the post office aware that we were
recommending the change. We asked them if there was going to be a problem with
mail delivery. They said absolutely not. They assured us that the 18 months forwarding
service would apply. So, for 12 months they would get their mail directly forwarded to
them. For the next six months they would have alittle --one of those little yellow
stickers put on there sending it back to whoever it was that mailed it to them at the old
address saying this is their new address, you know, you need to send it there. I also
know that finances are a real concern and so I -- there was some questions raised at
the neighborhood meeting that I'd just like to address. I spoke to the DMV and they
assured me that there is a no fee driver's license you can get. I mean you don't have to
change your license -- you don't have to change your address on your license, you have
to notify the DMV that you are changing addresses, but you don't have to get it
changed. However, most people probably would. If you wanted to get it changed it
would be $11.50 to have the driver's license changed to a new address. Also, if you're
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November 19, 2009
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within one year of the expiration date of your driver's license, you can just go ahead and
get your new driver's license early and avoid that $11.50 fee. As far as car
registrations, that would be three dollars to have that changed. We were talking about
-- that maybe notarized copies would be needed for different official things that they
needed to do, changes, and so we offered to send notarized copies. Normally we don't.
We could send a letter such as this out to the residents, but we would notarize them for
the nine homeowners in order for them to have that on hand at no cost. Also, as far as
recording the deed, we were informed that nothing would have to be re-recorded. The
deed is -- since the deeds and most other property documents carry the mailing address
and the legal description of the property and so once we would notify the assessor's
office, they will update the parcel data to reflect a new mailing address if necessary.
So, we feel like we have -- you know, we realize there is not an easy fix here and we
haven't done it on a whim, we know that it's -- it's not easy to ask people to change their
street name after so many years, but we really do feel like it's in public safety's interest.
Moe: Okay.
Ricks: Oh. I'm sorry. Commissioner Moe, just one other thing. I just wanted to make
sure that you had received the additional items I submitted later today from the police
department and the Meridian fire department, their comments
Moe: Yes, I did.
Ricks: Okay.
Moe: Did the other Commissioners get those as well? Okay. Thank you.
Commissioners, any comments?
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I certainly empathize with people that will end up with a new street name, but I
think that in the name of public safety I think that that always has to be very high on our
list of concerns and we need to always keep that in mind and even though it's an
inconvenience in the short run, in the long run I personally think that the community as a
whole will be much better off. End of comment
Moe: Thank you, sir. Mr. Marshall, any comments?
Marshall: Yes, sir. I do have a lot of empathy for having to change addresses. It's a lot
of work. I mean checks have to be changed. Financial data. You have to change your
address in a number of different areas. Having moved several times in my lifetime I
know it's a lot of work and there are some fees involved and I appreciate the fact the city
is trying to say, you know, we are going to make sure we cover anything we can from
our side. Having been listening to a 911 call before that was hysterical, listening to
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November 19, 2009
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somebody else try to put that in, it does concern me that somebody's not able to get out
the proper street. It's Washington. It's Washington. You know, well, which one. I don't
know. It's Washington. I have heard that -- heard somebody saying that into the phone.
Not Washington Street, but been somewhat hysterical as they were speaking in the
phone and, siding on public safety, if the 911 operators are having a difficult time getting
to that locale, I agree with the land line, they should be able to find it, but with cell
phones -- and I would assume a lot of people here probably have a cell phone on them
and if you had a -- you know, most emergencies happen when I'm not at home and I
have to side on the side of safety, that I want emergency vehicles to be able to get
there, especially if I have small kids, which I do. They have been able to learn a new
address when we moved and I absolutely want 911 at my beck and call and I want them
to be able to find me, so I'm siding with the name change.
Moe: Okay. Mr. O'Brien, any comments?
O'Brien: Just to reiterate what's previously been said. I know the importance of being
able to find an address in a hurry, being a -- past jobs as a police officer. I have to also
side on the cause for safety reasons and it is -- I do empathize with all the people that
are affected by it. I think it's necessary for everyone's health and safety that is being
affected that we -- at least I feel that I need to approve the name change for that reason.
Moe: Thank you very much. I won't belabor that, but, basically, I would say that I'm in
agreement, basically, with the Commission. I know it's an inconvenience to have to go
through and do the address changing and whatnot, but I guess the one thing I would
also say is I appreciate the fact that it was brought forward, that there is -- there is a
problem and that we are trying to take care of it before it does become a problem. So,
at that note, Commissioners?
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I move that we close the public hearings on Items No 4 and 5 on our agenda.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It's been moved to close the public hearings on Items 4 and 5, which are the
name changing. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
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November 19, 2009
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Rohm: I move that we forward onto City Council recommending approval of the name
changes of these --
Baird: Mr. Chair?
Moe: Mr. Baird?
Baird: I would recommend you take each item one at a time.
Moe: Okay.
Rohm: Oh.
Baird: Recommend them separately.
Canning: Mr. Chair? You're not a recommending body, you're the decision making
body.
Rohm: Oh. Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I move we approve the name change from North Washington Place to
Northwest 14th Place by the City of Meridian, no changes.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the name change from North
Washington Place to Northwest 14th Place. All those in favor say aye. Opposed? That
motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I move that we approve the name change of West Washington Drive to
Northwest 9th Avenue by the City of Meridian, no changes.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve the name change from West
Washington Drive to Northwest 9th Avenue. All those in favor say aye. Opposed?
That motion carries. Thank you.
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November 19, 2009
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MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 6: Public Hearing: CUP 09-010 Request for Conditional Use Permit
approval to expand the existing funeral home use to include a
crematorium for Accent Funeral Home Crematorium by Randy Arzen -
1311 N. Main Street:
Moe: Commissioners, I'd like to get an approval to the request for a withdrawal on the
public hearing for CUP 09-010 for Accent Funeral Home.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman, I move that we approve the withdrawal of CUP 09-010.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: All those in favor of the withdrawal from CUP 09-010 say aye. Opposed. That
motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 7: Public Hearing: RZ 09-004 Request for Rezone of 5.41 acres from R-4
(Medium-Low Density Residential) to an R-8 (Medium Density Residential)
zone for Cabella Creek by Coleman Homes, LLC -north side of E.
Victory Road, west of S. Mesa Way and east of S. Bailey Way:
Moe: At this time I'd like to open the public hearing on RZ 09-004 for Cabella Creek for
the sole purpose of continuing the hearing to the regularly scheduled PZ meeting of
December the 3rd, 2009. Can I get a motion to continue that hearing?
Rohm: So moved.
O'Brien: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to continue RZ 09-004 for Cabella Creek to the
regularly scheduled meeting of December the 3rd. All those in favor say aye.
Opposed? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 8: Public Hearing: ZOA 09-004 Request to amend the City's current
standards for signs and to amend the following chapters: definitions,
measurements, nonconforming, outdoor lighting and conditional uses
when such sections address sign standards for Sign Code Text
Amendment by City of Meridian Planning Department:
Moe: Next item on the list I'd like to now open the public hearing on ZOA 09-004 for the
request to amend the city's current standards for signs and to amend the following
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November 19, 2009
Page 13 of 23
chapters: Definitions. Measurements. Nonconforming. Outdoor lighting. Conditional
uses. Such sections address signage standards for the signing code text amendment
and start with the staff report.
Vigil: Thank you, Chairman Moe, Members of the Commission. The next application
before you is an amendment for the Meridian city sign code and associated sections
you mentioned when you opened the public hearing. My first slide explains the
reconstruction of the sign code to be more consistent with the rest of the UDC, which is
Title 11 of the Meridian city code. The reconstruction will make it easier for staff to be
able to interpret and make it easier for people who read the rest of the code to
understand as well. A few of our goals for rewriting this sign code was to make the sign
code easier to interpret and understand, like I mentioned. The sign code easier to
enforce --
Moe: Could Ijust -- could I ask you just to hold up one more time. I just want to one
more time -- going through the sign-up sheets I noted that we had two people that were
signed up for the Cabella Creek. Hopefully, you understood that that will be heard at
our next meeting of the 3rd of December. Okay? I'm notifying right now. No, it will be
heard on the 3rd.
Canning: Chairman Moe, I will talk to him.
Moe: Okay. Thank you.
Vigil: And one of our third goals I have mentioned is to make the sign code more
equitable. We refined and condensed sections of the code. We cleaned up
uncertainties and ambiguities and we cleaned up the related sign code sections, as we
mentioned before. Once the rewrite of our sign code, we have added some new types
of signs and one of them is portable signs within the downtown area, which I'm excited
to tell you guys about a little bit later in my presentation. Temporary signs are now
defined as limited duration signs, with new proposed standards. Changeable copy
signs have been added to all districts for allowed nonresidential uses and I will expand
more on what a changeable copy sign is later in my presentation as well. And, then, we
also added a new sign --anew section for vehicle signs, which I'm excited to tell you
about, too. Okay. So, the first -- the first -- the portable signs in the downtown area that
I was telling about is the new section that I'm really excited for our business owners
within the downtown area. You're all familiar with seeing the A frames and the T frame
signs in front of our local businesses here in the downtown core and before they have
all needed a temporary sign permit, not to exceed the 90 days until recently where the
Council approved 180 days. Well, now our downtown businesses will be able to have
those portable signs with an approved permit all the time. So, they will not be
considered a temporary sign anymore, they will be permanent signs for our downtown
businesses. They will be allowed for retail uses, restaurants, drinking establishments
and personal services. So, hair salons, tanning salons, the personal services we have
a number of within our downtown area, they will be allowed one portable sign per
entrance and no more than one per street frontage. So, if they are on a corner they
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 14 of 23
have the potential for two if they want them. They cannot exceed six square feet -- or,
excuse me, eight square feet and we only look at one side when we are calculating that
eight square feet. So, I have talked to some of our downtown business owners and
they are very excited that we added this section to our code, because they really
struggled with not having the signage, except for maybe on their window, because they
don't have the opportunity for freestanding signs, really, because they have a sidewalk
directly in front of their business. Sorry. That is really fast. The next section is the
limited duration signs. This is what used to be called temporary signs. And it was 90
days per year. Council approved staff emergency text amendment fora 180 days until
this code amendment that we are going through now is adopted. When we went to the
committee, the committee felt 90 was still too little and that 120 would be more
appropriate and that 180 was more like having a permanent sign, instead of temporary
in nature. Another change that we made for the standard is a maximum background
area of 20 square feet, instead of 16 square feet. That was one of our biggest
complaints from people is that 16 square feet is just not big enough for their consumers
to read and 20 square feet -- the committee wanted to do 24 square feet, but 24 square
feet was 50 percent increase and staff just felt that was a really large increase, so we
split the difference and went -- kept the 20 square feet. Another change that we made
were banner signs for buildings. Currently what is codified is if you want to put a banner
on your building you're allowed three percent of that elevation if you have an approved
wall sign and if you don't have an approved wall sign you're allowed five percent. So,
we would need to know the height and the width of the building and times it by the
percentage allowed to be able to tell them what size they can have. We changed this to
straight numbers of 32 square feet for buildings under 100,000 square floor area and 64
square feet for buildings over 100,000 square foot area. Still they are allowed one per
business at any one time and a permit is required for any minimum duration signs.
Changeable copy signs are -- are in the signs that the copy can be changed on,
whether it's electronic, LED, or manual. We just changed them all to changeable copy
signs. So, what we did is we opened this up for all zoning districts for allowed
nonresidential uses. So, a church in a residential zone have the potential to apply for a
changeable copy sign if they want one. Their standards are more stringent than if
you're in a commercial zone, but they still have the opportunity to apply for them if they
want one. We were having many churches come in and schools come in who want the
opportunity to give messages out to the community and parents. Currently they are
only allowed in three zones, the C-G, I-L, and I-H, and this was well received by the
committee to change this for all zones for allowed nonresidential uses. And I mentioned
before that we have a new section for vehicle signs. We were having problems with
people constructing huge four by eight moving -- six by eight signs on flatbed trailers
and hauling them around and we know that we needed to address the issue and so with
this new section of the vehicle signs we put on there that -- well, standards are that they
cannot extend two inches past the property body of the vehicle and it only applies to
fleet vehicles. So, this way we don't have a huge structure off a flatbed trailer driving
down the street and causing safety issues. They do not need a permit for these signs
and they do not -- it does not apply to interior signs that are less than two square feet.
So, for sale signs or anything like that it does not apply to. I'd like to mention who the
committee members were, just so you're all aware. We had Brad Bryant from Bryant
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 15 of 23
Ideas. City Council President Charlie Rountree. Dan Clark of Valley Shepherd Church
of the Nazarene. Doug Anderson with Lytle Electric Signs. Lieutenant Overton with the
PD. John Hoffart with code enforcement. Lacy Tock with code enforcement. Michael
Marcheschi with Brighton Corporation. Tamara Thompson with Landmark Development
Group. Teri Sackman with the Chamber of Commerce. And our staff Anna, myself, and
Emily Kane. So, before you in your outline there is one outstanding issue that I did not
fix in my staff report before I sent it out. It's about the height of signs underneath of the
canopy. The canopy is where a vehicle can actually drive under and we said the
maximum he needs is 13 and a half feet and I had 16 and a half feet in there. For
esthetic purposes we would like to change it to the 13 and a half feet and if the
Commission so agrees, I have include on page two of your outline some language to
help with your motion. And with that I will stand for some questions.
Moe: Thank you very much. Any questions? I did note that we got overruled by the
Council in pretty much the one thing I thought would happen, they went to 180 days and
now they want to change it to 120 when it was 90, but I wish somebody would make up
their mind. Anyway -- I don't like it when we lose out here, see, you know, but --
Vigil: Sorry. I think you were overruled because of the people that actually went and
testified at the Council. I don't think many people knew it was going before
Commission.
Moe: I think you did really well tonight when you said the emergency. That took care of
Council right there on that and that's fine.
Vigil: Thank you.
Moe: I do have one vote, see, you know. Any questions?
Marshall: I do have a couple questions.
Moe: Mr. Marshall.
Marshall: Well, one question. Specifically on the vehicle signs. Two inches off the
body work? What about like taxi signs that extend four to six inches off the top of the
body or like Pizza Hut and all those pizza delivery guys that put the metallic -- the
temporary magnetic sign that probably extends up eight to 12 inches?
Vigil: I spoke with Mrs. Kane in the city attorney's office about this. There are fleet
vehicles, they are not -- they come off at night and they have to recharge and get put
back on. So, they would not be affected by this vehicle sign code. We did talk about
that in committee as well.
Marshall: The taxi signs. I'm talking about --
Vigil: Oh, not -- not taxis, but the pizza guys and --
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 16 of 23
Marshall: Okay.
Vigil: And taxi signs are actually a part of the original body of a vehicle is what I was
told by Brad Bryant during committee, so, yeah, I don't know. But Emily said they would
be fleet vehicles and would not be affected. Am I missing something, Anna? No?
Canning: Chairman Moe, Commissioner Marshall, tree houses don't meet code either.
Sometimes we just have to make judgment calls and this was one of those where we
knew we would have to be making a judgment call, but --
Marshall: Okay. All right.
O'Brien: Mr. Chair?
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: So, along the same vein, that also means that driver -- student driver signs, if
they -- the individual owns the vehicle that teaches the driver's ed, they put the signs up
on top of their vehicles temporarily, so does this also apply to that -- they are not a fleet
car, so --
Canning: I would say that's a safety concern.
Vigil: Yeah.
Moe: You want those bigger, do you?
Vigil: They would be in the same category as the pizza guy for sure.
O'Brien: Okay. Thank you.
Vigil: You can't win them all, I guess.
Moe: Any other questions? Okay. Great. We do have a couple of people signed up.
Virginia Cunningham. Say it again, state your name and address for the record, please.
Cunningham: My name is Virginia Cunningham.
Moe: You just need to speak up.
Cunningham: 101 Rigate in Meridian. I'm an employee sales rep for the Lytle Sign
Company here in Meridian and Kristi was nice enough to extend a copy of the draft of
the sign code to me and there was one -- I think she did a wonderful job, her
department and the committee that worked on it. I definitely see a big change in the
streamlining process and it will make it easier for us as well to explain to business
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 17 of 23
owners, you know, what they can and cannot have, so -- the one thing that I thought
after I had looked at the sign code was -- and I just wanted to put it before you -- is
projecting signs. They are only allowed currently in a couple of the zones that are here
downtown and close by and there are some new shopping centers in different areas
that are being made to be pedestrian friendly, such as the Mercado at Bridgetower, and
they would like to be able to have projecting signs, so that when people are at one end
of the shopping center, that they can see, oh, there is an ice cream shop all the way
down at the other end, rather than having to walk clear out into the parking lot to look at
the actual front of the building. So, I worked with changing their sign program, their
planned sign program, to get some projecting signs allowed there and nobody was
opposed to it, so -- and I had asked why are projecting signs not allowed anyplace but
downtown and nobody really had an answer for it and just kind of said, well, the code is
perhaps, you know, outdated. So, projecting signs would, of course, need to be
considered in the overall square footage that's allowed, so if they are going to use a
projecting sign that take footage away from a fascia sign I think would be the fair way to
do that. But -- instead of having somebody have to come from a variance or to change
their entire planned sign program, because they are not in the downtown area and they
are trying to, you know, have a nice pedestrian friendly shopping center and I would ask
that you would consider to open that projecting signs to other areas.
Moe: Okay.
Cunningham: Any questions?
Rohm: Sounds reasonable.
Moe: Thank you very much.
Cunningham: Thank you.
Moe: Kathy Ritz. Did I say that right?
Ritz: Reets, Rites, Ritz -- we will take any of it. We pronounce it Ritz. My name is
Kathy Ritz. I own Renewed Expressions Consignment in Meridian. We are located at
18 -- oh. My physical address is 12374 West Goldenrod in Boise and store address is
1835 West Cherry Lane. We are located just west of Linder Road on Cherry Lane and
across the street from Pizza Hut. The challenge my business has is that we are right at
the edge of a subdivision. So, the traffic that is heading east on Cherry Lane doesn't
see my business until they are basically past it, if they see it at all. So, the temporary
signage is helpful for us. I interface with my customers face to face, I ask them how
they find us. Number one is by referral. Number two is when I'm able to have the
temporary sign. And I'm just requesting that you pass this ordinance or whatever you
call it and the 120 days would be helpful for us as far as my business is concerned on
the temporary signage. Any questions?
Moe: Any questions, Commissioners?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 18 of 23
Ritz: Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much. That was all that was signed up. I do see a couple other
people in the audience, so -- and they are not rushing up here to speak, so I think that
would be it, Commissioners.
Canning: Chairman Moe?
Moe: Yes. Can you answer the projecting sign question?
Vigil: Sure. You bet. Projecting signs, as it's codified now, are only allowed in the Old
Town area and when the code was written we didn't have TN-C and TN-C are going to
be -- is going to be more for our pedestrian areas and we will start seeing that more
when people start to do annexations more, but Virginia has a good point of some
commercial areas that have pedestrian friendly environments and once the pedestrian
friendly environment -- we only have maybe one or two. I can't think of a bunch of them
off the top of my head, but this could always be addressed as an alternative compliance
as well. So, they did have -- if you wanted to open it up to all districts -- but there should
be for pedestrian friendly environment. So, like a C-G zone or a C-N zone or
something, they could apply for an alternative compliance along with their sign permit,
but there is another option for the Commission.
Moe: Thank you very much.
Rohm: They have to come before the Commission or just the staff?
Vigil: It's staff level and it's a quick application. We are talking a few days, typical.
Canning: Chairman Moe? May I add to that, Chairman Moe?
Moe: Okay.
Canning: For those who probably aren't too familiar with alternative compliance, we do
it fairly -- I shouldn't have said that. We do it fairly often when folks need some flexibility
in landscape provisions or -- or other things. There is a whole list of items we can do
alternative compliance on. We are required to make findings for the alternative
compliance. They need to generally fit within one. And I wanted to read one of them to
you. It says the proposed design includes innovative design features based on new
urbanism, neo-traditional design, or other architectural and/or site designs that promote
walk-able and mixed use neighborhoods. So, I think the alternative compliance
mechanism for that would be great. Kristi and I had talked about this earlier and --and
although we do think it's appropriate in the neighborhood districts, the reason we didn't
want to open it up to everything is to get that -- an awkward mix perhaps of wall signs
with projecting signs and -- and may not look as clean in some of the traditional
commercial districts as we would like. So, that was our thinking on not opening it up to
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 19 of 23
all districts at this point. But it would be a great alternative compliance that we could
add. I think that would be a good -- a really good addition to the code.
Moe: Okay.
Canning: Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much. Any other questions of staff? Okay. Commissioners, any
comments or motions or anything anybody wants to make?
O'Brien: Mr. Chair? So, the -- the only modification that I see that wasn't on the original
proposal was to modify -- excuse me -- modify the size of the canopy sign from 16 to 13
and a half. Were there other modifications that are proposed?
Moe: But before -- if you're going to do that, we need to close the public hearing prior
to that. Any comments, Mr. Marshall?
Marshall: I had a couple comments. I'm really torn by projecting signs. I like the
projecting signs and I think we desperately want to encourage walk-able space. But I'm
also torn by staff's point that if you laid that out there for everybody in C-G, you know,
you can get a -- you could end up with an awful mix if it's fully approved across the
board. I wish there was some way we could get out that we want to encourage those
walk-able spaces and, yes, I like the Old Town projecting signs, to be honest with you.
think it's quaint, it helps in being able to walk down the sidewalk and know what's
coming up is great. But I agree I would not want to see a C-G district that has a couple
projecting signs and some up back in here and I'd like to see some uniformity in there,
how we address that. I don't know how we encourage the walk-able design with the
projecting signs. Right now I think staff's come up with the best alternative right now
and until we can come up with somebody else I think alternative compliance is probably
the best way to go right now.
Moe: I was going to say, with them doing that, the possibility is there and if that goes
forward with, you know, a couple different businesses and whatnot, that that is seen,
therefore -- especially since they are going to go through the sign shops to have that
done, that -- the ability to do that is out there at that point and, then, you know, kind
streamline it -- we don't want to put it wholesale, simply because we don't want it
everywhere. But at least we have the possibility that way going through alternative
compliance.
Marshall: Absolutely.
Moe: Any other comments, Commissioners?
Rohm: No comments.
Moe: Anybody want to make motions?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 20 of 23
Marshall: I will make one more comment real quick. I am kind of disappointed that we
went to 180 days on the temporary signage. To be honest, I'm not big on temporary
signs. I know it helps certain businesses, but overall I am against it and I already had
my diatribe on that.
Moe: But as I understand it --
Marshall: It's 180 right now and it's going back to 120, so a move in the right direction in
my book, so --
Moe: Well, we can't fight the fight that we lost.
Marshall: Right.
Moe: But if you want to go to 120, you're okay there.
Marshall: No. That's just my comment. I was putting that on the record where I stand.
Moe: Okay. And you made that on the record that night, too, as well.
Marshall: Yes, I did.
Moe: I remember that very well.
Marshall: And I am not repeating it. Now, I would like to make a motion that we close
the public hearing on ZOA 09-004.
Rohm: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to close the public hearing on ZOA 09-004. All
those in favor? Opposed? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Moe: Mr. O'Brien, it sounds like you kind of were ready to go and understanding what --
O'Brien: I wasn't going to make a motion, then, I was just having the question in case
the opportunity came up and it has. So, Mr. Chair?
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to
recommend approval to the City Council file ZOA 09-004 as presented in the staff report
for the hearing date of November 19th, 2009, with the following modification: That the
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 21 of 23
canopy sign -- canopy type sign be moved from 16 feet -- square feet to 13.5 square
feet.
Moe: Well, no, it's square footage to clearance based --
O'Brien: I'm sorry.
Moe: -- on 16 and a half feet to 13 and a half feet.
O'Brien: That's right.
Marshall: I will second that.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve ZOA 09-004 as amended. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed. That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Moe: Commissioners?
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I move we adjourn.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. Opposed?
That motion carries
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Canning: Commissioner Moe, did you -- I'm sorry, I got distracted at the end on the
clearance. We had a brief conversation. Did you include the alternative compliance?
Moe: Yes.
Canning: Do you not want to? Oh, you included it? Okay. I didn't hear it. Okay.
Moe: Yes. I said as amended.
Canning: Okay.
Moe: And he had amended it in his motion.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 22 of 23
Baird: No. That was just for the clearance.
Canning: That was just the clearance.
Moe: Oh.
Canning: Did you want the alternative compliance for the projecting signs?
Rohm: Oh, I didn't know that that had to be added to the motion. I thought it was
already available.
Moe: Right.
Canning: No.
Moe: Okay.
Canning: I apologize for not making that more clear.
Marshall: Can we reopen the hearing?
Moe: We need to -- first of all, we need to open the meeting and -- so, at this time I'm
going to reopen the P&Z hearing for November the 19th and go back to Item ZOA 09-
004 and ask the maker of the motion if they would like to amend their motion to include
alternative compliance.
O'Brien: Okay. So, Mr. Chair?
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: I'd like to make a motion to -- after considering all staff, applicant, and public
testimony, I move to recommend approval to the City Council of file number ZOA 09-
004 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of November 19th, 2009, with
the following modifications: To change the code section 11-3D-8A-15D to read: Any
hanging sign under canopy shall have a minimum vertical clearance of 13 and one half
feet from 16 vertical feet under any driving surface. Second, to include alternative
compliance for projecting signs. End of motion.
Marshall: Does that cover it?
Canning: Yes.
Marshall; Just requesting alternative -- okay. I'll second that, then.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded to approve ZOA 05-004 as amended. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed? That motion carries.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
November 19, 2009
Page 23 of 23
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Canning: Commissioner Moe, before you close the public hearing, can I note for the
record that we did have one person leave, the person that testified on the number of
days for temporary signs has -- or for limited duration signs has, left, but that the person
testifying in favor of projecting signs was in the room still when we reopened the
hearing. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much.
Rohm: Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I move we adjourn.
Marshall: I will second that for a second time.
Moe: It's been moved and seconded for a second time. All those in favor say aye.
Opposed? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Moe: So, we are now going to adjourn at 8:04.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:04 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
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