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2005 11-29T" ~~: ~~ .,~ ,'~ i s `~i ,r> :~. ;'~~ ;.~, .,,,,~ s, `,= _;w '` `? ~~~ `: .~~: =;',~ f .,.~:~I I ,'-:II Y; i F .~, ~,. ~4% rt.:t rs';6 ~:_, ~ I:~ ^r ?`! r', ~`;;~. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Meeting Agenda -November 29, 2005 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. IS .~~ '~k~R-~ ~. y ~i~~` ~ ~t ~ .C N l' 1 T,: .~ ~ ~ , .~~;~ - - ' r i ~ { r r-' ~ ~ ~ 4 ~ ~ ~`~ ~ ~~~333ggq ~ 1 .y ~ i.~~ . . v y 'y ~ ~ y~ ~ .r~! '~gx ~~ 1 y }~~ ~'j: yj 3y ?}~ ~ ~ y v X J ~M ~~ x„ ~ + „S; /S ~ r:d~n~'~„f , ~ ,4 ~'.~ } { ! ' ' 4 ~4~, 4 P r ~ ~ ~ 'r 't r / E~ ti~ 1 f e ,~` r ` ~ " x , y, f,r 4 ~ ~! i ~Y, i ~: =. ~..,, ~, x"' ~,: _. ,~ i :l~ r- ,: ,~ '<- ~l >. ~.;,~. :,. ~~ I k' ., ,F~ ~5i 3. ~.1 . ~ ,r ~;:. ~:` ._,ri `; ~;; -t~.~, k. `i. k ,r .,- ~~ i CITY OF MERIDIAN MERIDIAN PLANNING AND ZONING SPECIAL MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, November 29, 2005 at 6:00 p.m. City Council Chambers 33 East Idaho Avenue, Meridian, Idaho 1. Roll-call Attendance: r~ Keith Borup Wendy Newton-Huckabay David Moe Michael Rohm David Zaremba -Chairman 2. Adoption of the Agenda: ~ ok- 3. Training and Questions /Answers Session with City Staff: ~~ ~ Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Special Meeting Agenda -November 29, 2005 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shalt become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours priorto the public meeting. } <' w'? ., I;;~.{ '~ ~t ~~ ~~~~ ~ , {~, *6 t c Y e .~ .. BEY" 's T ; -- `fir ti . .t - _ x' i~+ ~} ~~ y::. .1,. r.. ~" R~ A ~ _ ~t $ ~. 3 ; ~3 Y t i iy.G ~~ ~. ~.' ^, w a ~ , r- • [ ~ 44 1 A ~ ~ ` . Z f Y l 'i } r 1~ ~ h. •, v { , ~~ -- 1 ~' ,;-. - -~7 ~, i~ ' n~' > ~i r ~"~ ~. ~I ,~ ~' I x +~~~1 ~;~ -. `! F; t 1~- - ~,. - ~.. ~+ '~i ;~ "° ,~, 4f ,f,l a t:4;F~Y ,;~° _ _ ~ ";=. ~« i~: P ~ ~aS ~ I~OSt- -~c 1 Pv~1~ ~ ~~c:.~- 7hai~ti~n ~~ ~~~~ , CITY OF 9~ ;-:p~ ', y.. _ ~ ~YlG~1G~"Yl ~~ ~ IDAHO 6F cF ~R~~TREASURE VNSEY 1BO3 MAYOR Tammy de Weerd CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS Keith Bird Christine Donnell Charles M. Rountree Shaun Wardle CITY DEPARTMENTS Fire 540 E. Franklin Road 888-1234 /fax 895-0390 Parks & Recreation 11 W. Bower Street 888-3579 /fax 898-5501 Planning 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 202 884-5533 /fax 888-6844 Police 1401 E. Watertower Lane 888-6678 /846-7366 Public Works 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 200 898-5500 /fax 898-9551 -Building 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 150 887-2211 /fax 887-1297 - Wastewater 3401 N. Ten Mile Road 888-2191 /fax 884-0744 - Water 2235 N.W. 8th Street 888-5242 /fax 884-1159 NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Planning and Zoning Commission of the City of Meridian will hold a Special Meeting at Meridian City Hall, 33 East Idaho Avenue, Meridian, Idaho, on Tuesday, IVovemb®r 29, 2005 at 6:00 P.M. The Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission will be discussing the following agenda items: Training and Questions /Answers Session with City Staff The public is welcome to attend the special meeting. `e`~'t~uoneeer~~s~~ e°~®~® ~~~'c® DATED this 23rd of November, 2005 ~ ,, ~~ L WILLIAM G. BERG, _ . - CI K ~ ~ ~ ',e R~ Meridian City Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting -November 9, 2005 All materials pr®sented of public meetings shell become th® prop®rty of the Gty of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and / or hearings, please contact the Clfy Gerk s Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours pdoi to the public meeting. CITY HALL 33 EAST IDAHO AVENUE MERIDIAN, IDAHO 83642 (208) 888-4433 CITY CLERK -FAX 888-4218 CITY ATTORNEY / HR -FAX 884-8723 FINANCE & UTILITY BILLING -FAX 887-4813 MAYOR'S OFFICE -FAX 884-8119 Printed on recycled paper -~ ~~ ~ ~`..~ L ~'~~ fi. :' ~ r. Ht~ .~.~~~T - Pc`!:. .~ . .. ~ ~ } { ry ,- c' i ~~_. ,: { -%' r ~' v f - ~ ,~; ' ^L. ;~: Y r' ! . . ~. ~ ` t 5 a - ~.ti,a; ' j u ` Y: C: . ~ ;' ' ~ r $ _ + lit I,. ~l i Y ~ ~: `_ i+ k' ~ ~t - i ~ t r ~' : y ~~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~- ~N J' ?... ~ `i ~~~ ~ i . :~,. - - ' ~ ~ ~ ~~~ ti t ~' t k _- ~ ~~ ,. ~; - .~~~x N. ~, a~~ ~. ~~ :} F- w z ,:k;, ~, P ~ C~ .fr~ ~~. f. ~~~~ .. ~~::~; `~, -.i . r,5~'i~. ~. '7i".': :;.~; + ~1~~ ~, ,`; -~:; ; , j ;;` ?` ~= <,y~~~r ~ , , ,.;; .~; `r~ ,,;, c. y h / ~43'.~ ,~ I'1 ;, -s ,1},. ~~ ~~~7 -t i ~~ :~;, ''= ;,,_~ lt~.~f:~ h 'N~V I ~y t+~':,Mr , :.ti 1 x ~ ~ ~, ~ ~, ',: ~~;: ~~:f~ ':`' ~.~~, e ~~ ,. - ~~~ crrv ~F ~~~ ~ ,~- ~Y1G~IG~"YI ~ ''I IDAHO ~ 5 / T~F tirF~to U" rRRi1SURF VN~'Y 91NCE 1993 MAYOR Tammy de Weerd CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS Keith Bird Christine Donnell Charles M. Rountree Shaun Wardle CITY DEPARTMENTS Fire 540 E. Franklin Road 888-1234 /fax 895-0390 Parks & Recreation 11 W. Bower Street 888-3579 /fax 898-5501 Planning 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 202 884-5533 /fax 888-6844 Police 1401 E. Watertower Lane 888-6678 / 846-7366 Public Works 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 200 898-5500 /fax 898-9551 - Building 660 E. Watertower Lane Suite 150 887-2211 /fax 887-1297 - Wastewater 3401 N. Ten Mile Road 888-2191 /fax 884-0744 - Water 2235 N.W. 8th Street 888-5242 /fax 884-1159 e NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Planning and Zoning Commission of the City of Meridian will hold a Special Meeting at Meridian City Hall, 33 East Idaho Avenue, Meridian, Idaho, on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 at 6:00 P.M. The Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission will be discussing the following agenda items: Training and Questions /Answers Session with City Staff The public is welcome to attend the special meeting. DATED this 23rd of November, 2005 ~ ®° ~ /~-~ _ _ ~ ® e WILLIAM G. BERG, _ . - CI ~ ~K ~ ~~ ~ ,r~,~'r~rrr n r r7ia1~1~,``e`\ Meridian City Planning & Zoning Commission Speaa/ Meeting -Nov®mber 9, 2005 All materials presented at public meetings shall become the property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and / or hearings, please contact the Clty Gerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. CITY HALL 33 EAST IDAHO AVENUE MERIDIAN, IDAHO 83642 (208) 888-4433 CITY CLERK -FAX 888-4218 CITY ATTORNEY / HR -FAX 884-8723 FINANCE & UTILITY BILLING -FAX 887-4813 MAYOR'S OFFICE -FAX 884-8119 Printed on recycled paper ~~ . ,u :`_, .> .c ~ - -,4~t- ~.;".~', t, ~'~' ~i°< g^!.,t r= ~ .: sr: - <r` r: i:',°': yc aox TX T I ON REPGRT xa~ DRTE TIME TO/FROM 02 11/23 13:54 PUBLIC WORKS 03 11/23 13:55 8848723 04 11/23 13:56 8841159 05 11/23 13:57 2088840'744 06 11/23 13:58 POLICE DEPT 07 1123 13:59 8985501 08 11/23 13:59 LIBRARY 09 11/23 14:01 2083776449 10 11/23 14:02 36924 11 11/23 14:02 P-AND-Z 12 11/23 14:03 FIRE DEPT 13 11/23 14:04 SERVER 14 11/23 14:06 208 387 6393 15 11/23 14:07 20885052 16 11/23 14:08 LRKEVIEW GOLFCOU 17 11/23 14:09 IDRHD RTI-0_ETIC C 18 1123 14:10 ID PRESS TRIBLIME 19 11/23 14:12 2088886701 20 11/23 14:15 RDR CTY DEVELMT RS OF NOV 23 '05 1~ PRGE.01 CITY OF MERIDIRN MODE MIN/SEC PGS CMDp STRTUS EC--S 00'28" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'28" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'28" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC-~S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'34" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'28^ 001 040 OK EC--S 00'26" 001 040 OK G3--S 00'31" 001 040 OK Ec--s 00'27^ 001 oa0 ox EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK G3--S 00'43" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK EC--S 00'27" 001 040 OK rt~uo~ rosy t~ rurallf_. Ivtrrlc_C,- I r~ur~~~ 1 . ~ irr or C~ri~i~~ .~ `~~ IDAHO .wau VN+kY MAYOR NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING ?ammy de Wt;erd C1rY COUNCIL MEMBERS PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Keith Bird Christine Donnell Charles M. Rountree Shaun Wardle NOTICE IS HEREBY GNEN that the Planning artd Zoning CITY DEPARTtviQN"[S Commission Of the Ci Of Meridian will hold a S Fire ty pedal Meeting at 540 E. I~ranklirt Road 888-1234 /fax 896-0390 Meridian City Hall, 33 East Idaho Avenue, Meridian, Idaho, on Tue®day, Parks & Recrcotion November 29, 2005 at B;00 P.M. The Meridian Planning and Zoning 11 W. Bower Street 888-3579 /fax 898-5501 Commission will be discussing the following agenda items: 1'lanttlltg 660 >~. warertower tone Treinin and Questions /Answers Session with C Staff` Suite 202 .. 9 nY 88h-5533 /fax 888-6894 route The public is welcome to attend the spetaal meeting. 1401 13. Watertnwer Lane \t„uuur,pr 868-6678 /846-7366 ```,~,\\\~ ~ rrir~r~~// Public Works DATED this 23rd of November, 2005 ~ ? y~ 660 E. Watertowcr i one t Suite 200 898.5500 /fax 89A-9551 WILLIAM G. BERG, _ CIT11C • Btulding ' ~' 660 E. Watertower Lane 7~ ~ Suite 150 '~~, `sp r ~ ~ ~• 887-Z11 /fax 887-1297 y!~rr , `~" \~~~ rrrryn i n a HtHt\~\ - Wastewater 3901 N, Ten Mile Road 868.2191 /fax 884-0744 - Water 2235 N.W 8th Street 886-5242 /fax 884-1159 Marid/an CHy planning & Zoning Commission Specie/ Meetfng - Notremtrar 8, 2005 Mmaletle/s presented M public meetings shaADexme the property ofthe Cdy ofMsttdlen. Myone desiring aoromrrrodeNon fordisabftRles related to doa~ments and/orhesrings, please oonteet the C>7y Clerk's OtAce at 888.4433 at least 48 hours prior to the pub(rc mesffng. CrrY HnLL 33 EAST Inaxo AvElwe MERtD1AI.r, IuAHO 83642 (208) 888-4433 CRY CLERX•I'AX 88&4218 C.f7Y ATTORNEY/HR-SAX 88a-87i} FINANCfi B: V'ffL11Y B1LLINC.-FAX BeI-a8t3 mAYOR50FFICF •~PAX B84•S11V~ Printed en rxyeled paper - :~:, 5 ~a~a .x•sn c.mi+~.aa ,:. f a ~' f~ , ~¢ ~ i 1 4 ~ +1:~Y ~ :4 J~ )r LV~ ~ . ~'~Z~ , ~~g4 {fff~~ ~ 1< . ~~~ 1 ~iC iF.' ti .. ~ ~ y 'Y ~ ~ } i~ ~' w ,~ ~,,~ ~' y~9' ,1S , IT' ¥ - r raY£.,,i~~ e _ '°~ ~ ~ h }+ J } e'~y ~ ~' € ~r2ta xi . ~, ' rn~ t YY~t ~~ ~, ~ ~~ ~,~ k rJ , h:*' D: 4 Y ...... ~~~i',_ z=. ~` ~~ .< {,. ry {_ - Fr< ~~`~=`' E:~ ~-s, ;.: , i+ 1' ~~,=. I.' t.> 4~ '' ~;~ Meridian Planning and Zoning Special Meeting November 29, 2005 The Special Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of November 29, 2005 was called to order at 6:23 p.m. by Chairman David Zaremba. Members Present: Chairman David Zaremba, Commissioner Michael Rohm, Commissioner David Moe, and Commissioner Wendy Newton-Huckabay. Staff Present: Anna Canning, Bill Nary, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Josh Wilson, Michael Cole, Craig Hood, Bruce Freckleton, Steve Siddoway and Will Berg. Others Present: Dave McKinnon Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance: Roll-call O Keith Borup X David Moe X Wendy Newton-Huckabay X Michael Rohm X Chairman David Zaremba Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda: Zaremba: Since we only have one item on the agenda, we will assume it is adopted and we will move on to the training and questions /answers session with City Staff. Anna or Brad? Item 3: Training and Questions /Answers Session with City Staff: Hawkins-Clark: Well actually what we did is, we kind of divided up the questions between the four of us Anna, Bill, Steve and I. We have of course other resources in the audience, but in terms - we just sort of broke them up to help us preparing for it and luck of the draw our City Attorney came out with number one. Nary: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission the question that I have is the first one is, why does the growth of schools, fire stations and accessory impact fees or other things in the tax structure, legislative choices (inaudible-------------------------). Currently it is OPEC that has (inaudible-------------) legislative decision as to what impact fees can be applied to it currently in the State of Idaho. Basically, it can be applied for schools and for cities to use and they have to (inaudible--------) essentially have some longer lasting permanency to them so, cities tend to use them for parks for that purpose; the Highway District can use it for roads and road improvements because they have to have at least the life of 10 years for that to be usable. We are looking at some potential for our city to assess impact fees and we are going through a study process now - selecting someone to do this analysis and going through the process of assessing impact fees for public safety types of uses. The police are a little harder because they generally don't build hard structures, other than the one police station they don't Z1 z- w ~. .. ~. W". _. ~~, 2r ~,'~..to ~~ ,-; ~~':`r k +! o r ,> 7 ' r .. t • j _ 4*. j ./ ~{ ., , . M :t t };' ~ '. yy Y ~: ~, f. - . iw^ , ~ ~'"a ' i; `, . k, F' I iH~. ~: e .. a~ 4 } I N _ !. riF t !S f. 1 .F r ~~-~ r ~'< 5 ~ xt r `,.~. s 7:-- _ ~_ ~ , t-.. tC „~ ~ =. lcY. ~:: ~ '~' ~ Meridian Planning 8~ Zoning Special IV~'@Cting -~ November 29, 2005 Page 2 of 52 ~~ ' ;''= ~y~~~~_~~' normally it's our (inaudible-----------). They may or may not have as much impact as the =~~ olice because there's not inaudible---------- so it can be an effective tool. Nam a and ' p ( ) P ~~ `~'~ Caldwell over the last year went through this exercise to add impact fees (inaudible------ ~:-'~' ---------) heard from the public safety part of the general fund. So, the Fire Department ~" is a little bit better because you can at least build stations. Even their vehicles have ~~> more life than police vehicles do if you get more than 10 years out of it. We are looking ~_ at that. The legislature has not at this point had impact fees to be applied for schools. <, ~;;~~ (Inaudible---------) probably a discussion point I wouldn't be surprised. Schools ~~ ~ (inaudible------------) paying for itself isn't really how that discussion gets handed to the legislatures and our growth impact schools. I wouldn't doubt that they will have that ;t discussion, but I don't have any insight today as where that movement goes. I think that ~'' is what property tax discussion comes about and how that impacts the bottom line for q schools and other services that the government provides. I am sure impact fees will get ~; discussed again and obviously the development community has sometimes the "~ opposite view. I mean, there is sometimes a discussion that you folks have seen many 3 ~~=~~ times where (inaudible-------------) part of it is the cost of business and part of it is current r'` ' residents. That is why in impact fees that are done for parks there is a portion of the ~;} impact fees that goes for purchasing or improving park land or any portion that you are going to buy or purchase all of the park land, your park land, which I assume have to be ~~`~ (inaudible) with the loan there's a portion (inaudible--------). So, a very long answer, but fpk it's a legislative choice. Some of those choices may change and we are looking for ' some other avenues to add impact fees as another source of (inaudible). '~~`~ Canning: (Inaudible) ~= (Inaudible speaker and discussion) I Nary: I would guess - I don't know the exact answer to that, I would guess it probably ~I i` ~~ ;~ hasn't been a significant issue statewide as it has been to this county in the last five . (inaudible------). It is predominantly made up of legislatures outside of urban areas. The impacts to their communities is generally significantly different with impacts of ~~~~~ urban areas and because of that, sometimes you do see some lag. What is really ~ . , ~ driving or impacting a city such as Boise, Meridian, Nampa, Coeur d'Alene, Twin Falls, I , a, ., -; F Pocatello because some of the legislatures don't have those issues in (inaudible) and _ ~ Burley and those types of cities at all, so that is tough in educating them and trying ` '` impact statewide an issue that is predominantly found only in small pockets. Many of the things that you will see in the legislation sometimes will pass state laws that only .! impact in cities of over 100,000. A few years ago that was only one city in the whole x.;~' state and I think still is only one city but (inaudible---------) the reasons for that is because again to push it and trying to solve some problem issues, but also trying to ~~. deal with the majority of (inaudible---------) don't have those issues. ~~, „. r` ' ` Canning: (Inaudible----------) that was because there were issues at the time. (Inaudible------------) school district (inaudible--------------) show that they are very efficient. -~~g ~, ,.: `.. t ~;N.. ..:gyp; .~:~ - s•,y,p ...., _Fv .~~.... -... .. ~ i; T'c ti ~ A`t~~+'~,F ~ ~'~ ' , , ~ $ _ 'S' ? ~ •'~~ ~ R ~y' .'~ > :r . ~~ ~,' ~. ;~< ~tj: "; c? ^4, ~.~ . ,,, ~~ ~; .:a,.;,, ~~, ~~~, _, ,~; Meridian Planning & Zoning Speciall~eting November 29, 2005 Page 3 of 52 Newton-Huckabay: Then you could have that problem in a rural community where you may not (Inaudible--------------). Nary: (inaudible-----------) -school funding, but it is a state function, not a local function but a state function and so they decide how the (inaudible--------------) will be done, how the funding was divided (inaudible--------------) has just not been something that philosophically they had chosen to move to some level of local control of that. I don't think, I don't know that that's the only answer but I think that's part of the reason why it's just something that hasn't moved over into that. Again, (inaudible---------------) I remember 15 years ago when they passed the state (inaudible------------) I mean there was a tremendous discussion over those (inaudible-------------) that would mean the state no longer had the (inaudible) shift in how the mentality or thought process into the (inaudible-------------). (Inaudible--------------) done that way in like you said a small community. This state (inaudible---------------) 100 percent in the figure (inaudible---------- ----) the ones that control how many is funded statewide. (Inaudible-------------). Zaremba: Well and you also have to realize it's a push back from the development community anytime you want to raise a fee and the development community is big enough to be able to help legislatures (inaudible------------) so they hold some sway and that's not local that's everybody. Wherever you go it's always been the argument you know if I build a house I want to be able to sell them the (inaudible-------------). (Inaudible-------) sales anywhere to actually put the impact fees in and to make them sufficient (inaudible). My personal feeling is the advantage to impact fees is any other form of taxation and specifically property taxes (inaudible--------) houses occupied -first built and occupied you get a tax bill the year after that and then have a year to pay it or something like that. By the time it cycles through the system the city actually gets the money for occupied piece of property that's two years later. If those people needed a fire truck or school or a road in the first two years that they lived there impact fees are the only way to get it done (inaudible). I'm sorry Steve, I know you have - Siddoway: I was just going to say (inaudible) coming later but I'm just going to talk briefly about the impact fee portion of roads. One of the (inaudible) two lane (inaudible-- -------------------------------------------) impact fees work is the development that pays those impact fees so the (inaudible---------------) sold and the buildings are built and the congestion comes first. They pay their impact fee as they build and then as the entire square mile builds out (inaudible--------------) next to it. (Inaudible---------------). Zaremba: (Inaudible) urgent for what it costs to add three lanes to it. They cannot physically do that. The (inaudible) road doesn't have a base under it so they actually are tearing the old road out and building a new five lane road plus curb, gutter and sidewalk and they're only collecting for three new lanes. They are not collecting for the (inaudible) those are the old two lanes and to rebuild a new five lane they are only collecting it which is why it works out to 40 percent of what it costs them to do a mile for only like 40 percent of it. That means that the cities and the transportation task force and the others go through a process every year trying to tell ACHD that's our top priority when in fact, we're consistent with falling behind in what (inaudible) if they can only do - :eSxr:. ;~,~~.~ =4h' rC7 }!~ ~. C ' •~ M ridi Pl i & Z i S i ~ ti . e an ann ng on ng pec a e ng '#`' November 29, 2005 ~:::y,-: ~? Y:'., .., Page 4 of 52 if we just started with this year and said okay, here's 100 percent of what needs to be '~.;, . done this year and we've collected impact fees on 100 percent of it but we can only '~ ~ ~ actually build 40 percent of it. Next year we can't build next years we have to build 40 1 percent of last years. The year after that we're going to build another 20 percent of two ~ '"r years ago plus 20 percent of a year ago. Every time we're asked to say what are our }- priorities for Meridian and what we're building we're talking about something that should `' 9"~ ~`~ ;"!~!b`k have been built four years ago. It's a struggle to say what our priority is when we ought to be talking about the new stuff that's coming up. One of the questions I was going to ~~; ' ask was - I don't know if you're aware Bill and I don't know. Is there anything in the legislation that actually authorizes ACHD which is unique in Idaho and pretty well unique in the United States I don't know of any other countywide administration that ~, _ covers the cities as well (inaudible----------) that money to ACHD to say we need these ~=`~ ` projects done. If we had our own highway department we would be struggling with ';,~' ~ funding. Can we struggle with the difference between what they collect or are we ~~~~' prevented by the legislature from doing that? ~~'~~ :' Nary: I don't know how we would -based on the way of the formula and I certainly ~` `' .: can't tell you the formula (inaudible). I mean, I think the reason for the 40 percent `' (inaudible-------------------------). So, I can't see how we can justify and acting on an ~~'~ < -~ additional fee for a service we don't (inaudible----) have accounted by (inaudible) back _ on the same (inaudible-----). They developed a formula based on what is the proportion ~~~ ` ' of share for the new development and then we're going to (inaudible-----) I don't think ~``';~~- we could sustain. ~{- Canning: It would be better to argue that they're proportionate (inaudible). i ~`' Nary: Yes and I don't think that's where ACHD wants to go. I think they have been y beaten up a lot on impact fees and Idon't - I mean I think they have the formula to a point (inaudible -------) figure out what everybody can live with and thinks is at least x}11,,: adequate (inaudible------) the problem is that we see all the time especially (inaudible---- ~-- - --) is that if the building rate proceeded at what would in their mind be a totally normal ~` building rate that as those houses get built in this 800 home subdivision as those ~::: x,.. . °~~~ ~ building permits get acquired and the fees get paid and the money gets collected and as -~ .. `~ the houses get built and the road kind of comes over behind the development. I think that's what they have intended. The problem that we see is that the building rate is rapid and it's so far ahead that where you thought you might have the last house built in the subdivision and the last stripe painted on the road within a year of that last house it's ~~~ now three years or four because you built that subdivision out three times faster than '`' `~' (inaudible-------------). All of you have sat on this commission long enough to have seen ~~~ projects that you have anticipated and the builders sitting in front of you saying oh yes ;;-; ~: this is a seven year project or 10 years to build the (inaudible------------) and three years s;`` ' from now they're full. They are buying the piece across the highway because they need to build some more. I don't think that's going to change right now but it will. Then you ~5', ~ know you'll still always be a little behind but you won't be so far. You are exactly right ~~ ;'~ that the Transportation Task Force that's always a challenge. Once you finish the 01 i~n''k ones we wanted first before we worry about what we're going to do in 06 so they ~:: ~~ ~" - ., ,. t ,.::~s~a~+'~*'•~%«:~~ ", _~"a• i 'T^ ~ x ~yt ~~. •s~ x: o 't- i~~f. i, ~l•. , e~7h~-'~+s;;. bs.,: .tc <'.;i`:;fr::st;'N;is ~~. ~ .ar• } N~.. 3a w.~ tSA k.'~.'t I .4:' ':C";{4~; i~.#i a#:. n'~:.,p*~: ;~~,~.: s ~°'o-~: `~, uql~ x x.+, +,}~4 pV[ 4•.'Ss~ l1IIIl rp~ t.yy, . a:,: • r;~~ r:.:~', °.~; ; ~1tt ;.~ iI}T. <: ,~ ~~~: 1 '•iN,,!'•'+~'''~`4~4: s~`':~iB'f.~3x'°,~':Rx•~s~tw~n"1. & ~. },. .e ... .. .:','"~:b~?~ ~' .1 :. {.Sr..(,. ,. fi'iY:~~ 4 • .. .. '! ^~~ t"'~." .'.•°~. '~Y~. _ ~ ..."+. n.:>~., .~.:' ;:~T.:`v;5y iz~,,~~.`•`r,'~•. g ?.„.. t•' y'~'Y-'¢"~~s n.~i ,...: :'~~;7.rr .tc ,~'.c~; i;`:~~ .1:..:=~A~4~ Lrr~;§'s~:dfi •`~A~%~h-•3~~• 4~#~~~ `~4. ~ Y r i tFn ({ 5.,~ :~~.• `~~ ~ ~t~.F 1,~~4 s !a.•~. . ~'a, -'s'+ ,•~: .~ "~ .. .:.• .. " " ~ I 1 ':~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Nfeeting :: ~ November 29, 2005 Page 5 of 52 i .~ haven't finished everything yet. I just think it's just a rapid amount of growth that -~- (inaudible--------------). Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible----------------) you know some other communities we know these effect these dedicate the right of way so then they own the land right then and ,, ` ~` there (inaudible---------) they never get all the property owners that are adjacent to the roadway on that mile that are developing at the same time (inaudible------------) property °: ~' and they have deeds to them but then they don't necessarily have (inaudible----- they :y just build a whole mile at once. So, I think that is an advantage (inaudible-------------) r.:~Y;;. struggle of catch-up at least they are able to do a full mile atone time. . (Inaudible Discussion) ~- Hawkins-Clark: How can /does the city limit growth? Probably obviously probably the }~ ~ ,~ better word to manage in terms of the philosophy. It certainly is philosophy. I think ~~ ^ ~' historically Meridian has probably used two things. One is public facilities sewer and ;~ water and the other is annexations. While I don't think they proactively thought of ~~~~~~~:;~ annexations in that way as a tool that could be used to (inaudible------------------------------ ~: ---) in Meridian has used (inaudible---------------------) California for example I think put the building permit cap. You know they say no more than 500 building permits are ~~~' going to be issued per year period. (inaudible----------------------------------------). ,~:., Zaremba: (Inaudible-------------------) initiative let's put that in I don't know if it would be ~~ ' 500 a year but they established a point systems. So that when people came to apply ~'~~` ~ they knew they were going to get 6,000 applications a year so they said we're going to ~'~ ~~ take these applications and we're going to have a point system. If you build and give a g;. ~; city park to the city you get so many points. If you build and give a school to the city ~~ - you get so many points. I mean the roads were a given you had to do the roads plus ~~ ~` any intersection that you impacted between there and the interstate. You got points - ~, you got points for affordable housing and points for all sorts of stuff and whoever got the ~~ highest points got the allotment for the year. They could bank in allotment for three .~; L` years if they wanted to build you know if they thought they were going to get another lot ~~~ next year and build them all at once. The facilities are in place and given to the city and ~"";`~ works pretty well. - Canning: Typically those communities that have (inaudible------------------). They still sell them but they're not affordable. Zaremba: They are very expensive but the services are there the minute the residents ~~: ; are there. F: :{_ ~: Moe: (Inaudible--------------) in every meeting you know we go to (inaudible----------). realize that they are having to look for land to be able to build and what not and the -' ': developers are helping them in (inaudible-----------------) and others aren't. But at what point does this commission or what does the city say time out on the growth because we're running out guys? s ~Y -~ '1'l5 s .° ","sY ~~ Spa 0+ 'tip i•~ ~ D s 1 f 5 4 l- YY 3p yf[~• x~~S ~. 5 w`n'~#7= l4n ~~ii l~g~ ~i~' n;~W ~ it •~x ;~. ~n' •r?' .,tr,. .;~ •~'. & t ~i 3' ...1~' M `y .. ':ka. <~. ~- ~~L t 1L T : ~ y y L; ~, F ~.' ~j '~~ ~~ 'Tr: _ f i , . ~ j ~f _ <r v i= r~ ,4 7 : r. ~ W: ` ~„ 5 ,k Y. s ~; ?.. ~ Y ~ ~ i b-. i ~. 4'.. Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Meting November 29, 2005 Page 6 of 52 Canning: Well the school district has so did the highway district they had said (inaudible--------------------------------) you can't do this when are you going to start saying that (inaudible-------------------------------) s:'~~ Zaremba: (Inaudible--------------------) nearest school to you we'll bus you some place else. We'll get you in. ' ` Canning: (Inaudible-----------------------------------) for Fire and Police it's only part (inaudible). ;;~J Newton-Huckabay: Well I think that's the biggest concern though. ~... Siddoway: You have to set standards for which (inaudible--------) and what would be ;; (inaudible--------------------) is supposed to be one of the tools (inaudible----------------------- ..: _= - --------------------------------------------). What is that (inaudible-------------------) and develop '~ ' part of (inaudible) for every public facility (inaudible------------). _~~ Zaremba: On behalf of the Fire Department we say you can't build more than 50 - ' houses until there are two accesses. There is precedence for having some things that ~:a:,. ~~a: trigger limits and how that limit can be relieved. ~` ~~''.~ Nary: And the other thing that's probably obvious what your plan your Comprehensive W ~~,; "° Plan (inaudible---------------------------------------) that's why we're choosing this is because r we already said that's what we want to have near and so when somebody else you J~. ,w;~~ know when the neighbor that thinks it was all supposed to have (inaudible-----------------) ''' that's your other tool that you have to do that. As we look at the process I don't think back in 2000 or 2001 we ever imagined that we would be pushing out of this one as ~~. rapidly as this seems to go and I think we've seen the (inaudible) with this map which we thought was (inaudible) long long time and we're already hitting this. ;, ,,.. ;''~~;: Zaremba: We were a city of 30,000 (inaudible----------------------------------). Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) but I also started to say that the case law in Idaho has really been focusing (inaudible) what's the rate and how do you put it? I don't' know maybe there are supreme case law on actual limit tools but I think it's - -., ; ~; { Nary: Not yet. Hawkins-Clark: -- in terms of a real proactive limitation it's not there in the state. Nary: I think people use the m word a lot. You know lots of times they could use the moratorium or word or that's what you can use (inaudible----------------). There are two q~'_'` methods of moratoriums (inaudible------------------) have a treatment plant that's full. V~ .t. That's a pretty good emergency but that we're overwhelmed or we just think we've grown too quickly that's not an emergency. I don't see a court upholding that. There ~,, a _ ~ y . YPisy,~ ,y {~, - g r' h „'~ t4 ~+~,' F j `~, ~ tXit~ ~.~ - - Y .':t: '~ F ~ h y F 1~.~~ ~ - r ~~ -J tt~~,,~'~' E i -0 if nom` r E y~ ' ' -S tt ~ ~ K ~~b~`. - ,. ~! , y.`; ~ : te ~. ,,~ '' t, r ~ .. ~,},s . a. ~ ,~°' y. "R ~~ 1 ' ~ ~ ~ 'r1f- ~y~,,,7,'3f- ~S Lf .. ~J k t ~ ~ :: t µ k ~ ~ r ~c ~~ 5 ~ ~.F ~i'.. 9 J f. .t. 3E K .;. ~t ,t:Fp '~Ur !h~ f ~ ~ ~ l~,~ ~ ^~i' 'd s ~• ~ ~ t T _ ~0 % , ~ I ~y ~fi F iL ~• 1 •. .a ul`: ." E Y r ~ N ~ h ~R 6 ..: 3 ~ k ~ ~~'~ ~ t ~ I= . 11~ _.. Meridian Plannin & Zonin S ecial ~tin a g g p g ~~' ~ November 29, 2005 " ~~~ , ~ `L`~ Page 7 of 52 3r ~- {s~' really hasn't been (inaudible----------------------) in our legislature reports of trying to put ~ ~ limitations with caps other than annexations. Even as Brad said in the beginning ~~ -~ (inaudible-----------------------) has always been is as you start turning those folks away you're not sure what's going to keep coming back. If you keep telling them to go away and we're not ready we're not ready when you're ready they may have gone somewhere else. The w uld like to row now ma be ma have moved on and ou o Y Y Y 9 Y ~:-~ they've (inaudible---------------------------------------------). .' _; Zaremba: (Inaudible-------------) and now we have all those septic systems out there. Nary: Right and there is no real adequate way to subdivide or re-develop or any of that. ~i , Zaremba: (Inaudible--------------------------------) growth but it could steer growth. If we }-~, had the assumption that we wanted density to stay near the core and stop buildings at ~s 'j the margins. We want to (inaudible) the infill and get stuff in the middle what would be ~~. the legality of having a system of building permits fees then add a multiplier to them. ~ ~ #~~ For instance you said the building permit is x and we're going to multiple that by some distance from let's say city hall is ground zero. If you're a half a mile from - if you're ~~ ;,~; "., building within a half a mile from city hall we're going to multiply the normal building fee ~ ~ by half and you only pay half. If you're one mile from city hall we're going to multiply it w, by one so you pay the normal fee. If you're two miles from city hall we're going to :~: double and if you're three miles you triple. >,~; `~~ Canning: (Inaudible------------) adequate public facility ordinance (inaudible-------------) k~' `~'`"~ the closest stuff from those lines starts to look not like a center growing (inaudible--------- ,. .~ _ ~ .: .I -------) station is over here. It gets very complicated because what's infill for the sewer 7 ~`~: ; treatment plant (inaudible-------------) growth infills from the sewer treatment plant so the ~~ . - last stuff (inaudible--------------) so that stuff can be fairly close (inaudible-------------). ~u ~~'~~ Nary: Another issue I guess is (inaudible----------------) these are supposed to be ~. ': uniform related to the cost (inaudible--------------------) why would it cost you more to build t + '~~' this or for us to review these plans if you build it? (Inaudible) we have to justify is what ~~'~`~~ is that relationship fee - Zaremba: -- even if it costs more to provide police and fire out on the (inaudible) than it does in the middle? Nary: And that's what we would have to be able to identify is that there's some rational ~:~ "; relationship as to why that fee is related to what they're requesting. Again it's not a tax "~ so it has to be related to that. Like Anna said you know when we look at it where are ~~ most treatment plants in the city. They're not in the core they are way out. So from a r - service standpoint it depends (inaudible----------------) what she said related to the fire i station there's going to be one level related and police there is going to be another. '` ` ~ guess, maybe that will be the discussion (inaudible------------------) group when it gets done or how do we make that fit into the current statutory structure (inaudible-------------- '~~ ,j. --) effective I don't know. 4~' Y: 1 15Y,`.~~ ~~ vT . ~. 1 .. . @ v~N ~•:k ~ t1 r'y, i,t ~.a 5 wk . P3 '4:•t ..~ ~ ~~ y4 A ~~. ..1'..:: ~ .;, r Y' <,); ";g~.+~ .5~:;'"~'~~~,;F° • >~,y'~+:;i5~. #3~ ~ ~ ,.,N ,~ J+tI}4 `V -'~'~~ ~ ~. .~€~. ' i ~ y s .:~' R. .{.. ~ ..1 ~~•-:a$v.i • ~ 1 ~'~.lr~ .:~ ~. ':.:i t 7c_.~~ Meridian Planning & Zoning SpeciallEl~eting November 29, 2005 Page 8 of 52 ~,; .: ~ Hawkins-Clark: Number three we probably already touched on it. (Inaudible--------------- ~ ° ~= ~ ---) Steve touched on it as far you know how the impact fee structure is set up that you ~ ~.:~~- need it then cities in some ways compare the same way (inaudible--------------). ~~~-: Nary: You know I can remember during the election in 2001 they got that common lot ' n i I --------------------- i and b e ( -) look around at the cities that don t grow and used to be a really easy example and it has changed significantly in the last five years but Caldwell is like that. I went to college in Caldwell and the population in Caldwell is the same in s~~.' 1978 when I went to college as it was in 2001. It didn't change significantly in all those ~; ~~ years (inaudible------------) and then when I've asked those folks do you want to live in $4':~I Caldwell? I mean is that a place that you find to be a vital community and you want to ~' `~ I'll be a part of and at that point people said no I really don't. I like what's here but I would like nobody else to come live here. Well that doesn't work. You have to have both. `~ When ou have rowth it brin s the ositive thins ou know an of ou that h v 'v y g g p g y y y aelied `. ` i here for a long time you remember when Meridian was not a place you could go out to eat. You could go get (inaudible----------------) entertainment you could go buy shoes, t °`j~ you could go buy clothes you could go do anything here on a Friday. There was just `~' nothing else but a grocery store and a drug store and those kinds of things. W ~ ~ ~ Newton-Huckabay: We had a drive in (inaudible----------------). ~`~~ Nary: But there wasn't a lot of opportunities for things. Most of the folks when you talk to them they like those opportunities they just don't like the (inaudible--------------). Now _,a.~'i again, growth has it's challenges there is no doubt but it isn't all that it brings a lot of ~~ 1 ~~ pluses and positives and I know you folks have all seen many people stand up here and 4 ~ :I ~~ '~` say I live in Lochsa Falls and now it's too crowded. Let's see that house is too tall. He 'Ii ~.Y~;~ hadn't lived there very long and those are the kinds of things - Newton-Huckabay: You know and that is tiring. I'm here close the gate. Y~ ', 1. Nary: Yes and there's' not much you can do about that. ~~ Zaremba: In Newport Beach in Orange County California we used to call it the last man ~ (inaudible------------). It was even in the newspapers that way. Everybody that moved ~~~~~ there wanted to be the last one that moved there. We got to stop this growth. I'm here ;~~ stop it. ,. _:: (Inaudible discussion) I p. =~ Siddoway: What tools, methods, partnership does the city use /foster with ITD and Ada i ~ County to insure the needs created by Meridian's rapid growth are getting priority y'-- ~ consideration in regards to road construction /improvement projects? There are ''`°~ specific types of partnerships the cities uninvolved in that (inaudible----------------------). ~. (inaudible) built on 8~" Street near Meridian Middle School (inaudible-------------------) ;:»,~~,~~ ;,b:~ r: w A, ~, 9 '= t a' Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Nfeeting U November 29, 2005 Page 9 of 52 ~ '<~ partnerships for downtown (inaudible--------------------) and partnerships main methods are just (inaudible--------------------) Meridian watching now and (inaudible-------------------). ~~~ '.•- , Zaremba: (Inaudible------------------------------) impact fees for transportation (inaudible---- ' '' ----------------) Locust Grove overpass where we did come up with or we are promising to =~ come up with (inaudible--------------------) may have six cities (inaudible--------------------) ' = `~I that's the cheapest way to solve traffic problems (inaudible) that's not our objective we ,; (inaudible--------------------) is x million dollars more than our cheapest. (Inaudible---------- ----------) Eagle and Boise for us to give you everything you ask for just because you feel like it. If we want -and that's why Steve now is getting into all the partnerships " •~ (inaudible) point on their part. We don't want them doing gold plated roads in Eagle and • _ having us pay for it. Eagle doesn't want them doing you know more expensive projects in Meridian and they're contributing to it so there has to be some way if we want more °_,;; than the minimum or if we want landscaping down the median down the middle or other '; .`.:w;~~ things like that then Meridian has to step up and say we'll find a way to help with that. Siddoway: One thing I'm doing right now is trying to investigate partnerships. It t '~ happens (inaudible--------------------). I'm going to present those reports -I've found that ~ ; the Garden City renewal agency has been quite successful at leveraging their urban ~_ ; .`~, renewal projects (inaudible--------------------) right of way construction. I'm trying to look r ;>'~~ at what kind of partnerships have been done and what have been most successful r•. ~: (inaudible--------------------). °~° ~r-, ~~"~ ~ ~~. Hawkins-Clark: You mi ht also oint out there is a standin committee for Meridian that g p 9 ~,Y .:, is called Meridian Transportation Task Force that has a representative from COMPASS, ~~ ~= '' a representative from ITD and a representative from ACHD that meets have met ~ = annually and I know Steve's efforts is to try to get them all done. As far as the standing group. _ Canning: So Bill curiosity question. How much longer do you think ACRD will ~e _;~ (inaudible--------------------)~ \ ~~~ , Nary: I don't see it going away really (inaudible--------------------). : ; '..A- - } ' ' '~ Canning: Since it's (inaudible--------------------). 'h'~ Nary: Yes I think that was a big run at it which I think I guess I would think maybe not } -= x the opposite (inaudible--------------------) but I think Meridian's relationship of partnership 'l ~ t ` ` f.~'M: of ACRD has generally been very positive from the city. Certainly, (inaudible--------------- rh• -----) last year with them and over every issue. Steve said the majority of the projects ~~ ~r :`- are happening in Meridian because that's where the growth is, that's where the need is. ~$ ~~}` Meridian is truly benefiting from some good relations that they have and their `' _' recognition of that's where the need is. I mean I think it's generally working out. We ~' haven't run into too much of them to date saying well you want - we want the five dollar ~~ ;~- version you want the hundred dollar version you can pay (inaudible--------------------). sh That hasn't really been their philosophy in dealing with the city. 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I; J ~'~ . r v ~~ ~ S A " ~ ~ ~v t T - $ fyrif'..V... ~ rt { fw?~¢ ? r 11 i' '~C ~ „Y'' i. ga ' "+ 7 ~ z,~j~:.,k 9 :';': .r. . . ,4-rc~ `~: ~ ~:S~ r : V~~"~s ~ ` ` A yy ~~„e * = ~` ,;'F '~ L . . :. ..t,,~ ; . ~ tem j t r r., :.f1:.~.: .• <:.•. .. iq :'~<w ~ .~' F". q',~ k L xi _ •:'k;, .7: ~ t ~.{•~ T ,S h., t . ~ y ,. .. ~! ~"~.''~.?-. "~ ~' ~ F ~, ; a ~'Kikt; 2 :; ~ r,~, .c r x ~~.• ~ l~ ' ~.r ~ 3 ~'j ~. ~ , Y f ^, ..~1' ~ ~ :+r. ~ . . + ` ' ~,. ~~ sic„s xrd.'~PrR+ i .1•~w ~ `.a ~R• .;''! _ 7 ~ { 3. f r~ ., .,, Sf ,. ^ s , Y 7~, £ 'L°4kr .F' tj i' I ~ ',r~.' +,i ~~.h5 "~':fi-t1 ~ 4 A { y ~ ~; ~~ "`"~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special meeting November 29, 2005 x' '' ` ~,~< Page 10 of 52 really run into those issues. I think the Council and the Mayor are very comfortable in k ~` saying did Boise pay for those improvements? Did Boise pay for those other things? ~.:~ don't think they did so I'm not sure that we're obligated to pay for that. I think it's more ~~ hr~ like Steve said it's looking at what can we do to move this further quicker? It isn't that it ~; isn't going to happen it's just that what can we do to move it up a little bit sooner and ~ ~ you know find the creative ways to do that. I don't necessarily think it always has to be just funding but it can be more of other cooperative things. We're here -even just parts } of those like you said. Offering to pay for design is fairly inexpensive relative to the ~. ~__', project sometimes then the right of way costs but at least it gets it moved up and it does get their attention to want to partner. I think it's been pretty positive. I don't see ACHD ?~ _ ~ °~ going away very much because I think the downside is the way the state -the way the ~ ~. ~ `~ statute is set up it's not practical once you've formed it to dissolve it. There is no - ~~ method really that has to go to something else. It goes to the -from the permit from the 1 current county to ACHD, back to the county commission, back to something else. It ~` ~ ~:. doesn't go back to the city. They have to resolve all the assets that they have - .,;;, ~,°~ Zaremba: It's more efficient to have one administration for you know (inaudible) seven '. different administrations. ~;.~,,,, ~ ~~ ~ ~° Nary: -- if you ask most of the cities would you prefer to manage or make anymore ~y roads I think most would say no. I really don't want to have to you know do we want to ~ buy seven sets of snow plows, seven sets of graters; no it doesn't make much sense. 1 You would end u artnerin or findin some wa to coo erate inaudible-------------- L Again, I don't know that most of the cities would prefer to have their own street ~~ department at this point. If that's the way you've always done it like every other county -~ in the state or other city in the state it's probably fine. If you go now from nothing to _ ~: ~~?~ building a street department in one budget year I don't know that we have anymore ;~ _ parts. I don't know that we have anymore anything else. y ~~`" Siddoway: Which is the point where all the cities want ACHD to build all the roads in ~~ - ~ their city but not to the point where they want to take over building the roads for them. f ~ "~~ w~---- r~e~~-i __ ------i-°-- `~---- 5 .':{ ~ a{°~ Siddoway: Yes. _ ~ , ~E ~' Zaremba: Well and I think having seen the position (inaudible) goes a long way towards ", making our presence with ACRD known that - ~ ~I;~ Siddoway: I think our relationship with ACHD is as good or better than (inaudible). Okay what's the status of the Ten Mile Interchange GARVEE bonds? Bill (inaudible---). ~~ ~~'~ This summer we finished it's called the access study where it is the first step in private ~ ~Y;~ and federal money. That access study approved by FHWA at the end of July. That was e a huge first step. An even bigger step, came in well it's been building all year back in x ~ February. We wrote an application to the federal government for federal -for k L appropriations earmarked by the federal government for a Ten Mile Interchange. Over ,.. f: ~~: _.:„ 3 w.t ice' .'+:ii r'~; ~- ~'~ r Meridian Planning & Zoning Special IVI'~ting `• November 29, 2005 ?~'' Page 11 of 52 the summer the new transportation bill has been developed and passed. In that f ' ~ transportation bill the Ten Mile Interchange received 19.6 million dollars earmarked specifically for that project and can not be spent anywhere else. At the same time, because I figured that would pay my salary for a couple years. s Nary: Good for you. ~_-:G~<. ~~"`" Siddoway: At the same time that we were going through this statewide transportation - ~~ , ~' ~ 'End of Side One* 3 - ~ Siddoway: -- and GARVEE projects statewide are part of that Ten Mile Interchange is ~S. `" one of them. The access study for the Ten Mile Interchange coming out of a pretty ~'= aggressive schedule showing it to be under construction in 09. We were pushing hard ~~~ ~~~`'~ for that timeline. Toward the end of that process the earmark came through and we _ were successful in getting the project approved for not a 2010 but a 2008 construction. " ~` It may take a couple years of construction not only for 09 but 2008 (inaudible) on the books to -start construction. To that end, the next step is the (inaudible) process then working hard all summer with the property owners offering money. It's kind of a long r ~~~~ :i story in the end they found a way to pull (inaudible) our local funds to operate. That's ~~: `: (inaudible--------------------) to their attention. They two weeks ago hired a firm to head `~~ up the environmental and start the engineering work for the Ten Mile Interchange. '~''~~``'~ h°~ They're going to be kicking off their process toward the end of the year with that two ? year process (inaudible--------------------). There are folks at ITD district level that are ~~ ' scared to death of a timeline frankly, because it's an imperative task for them. '{.:::`' ~ (Inaudible--------------------). At the same time we're trying to figure it out how the whole interchange should effect the big orange gob of mixed use regional around Ten Mile. ~~`} So in the next couple of months we're going to be kicking off the Ten Mile (inaudible) ;,,,~ Meridian sponsors and have to figure out at finer grain (inaudible--------------------) what '' land uses should be there and how we transition from existing residential uses. Where ~;~-, do the access points belong? How do we figure out an internal collector or even what ~' road system that belongs there. What types of uses belong? Zaremba: Frontage roads maybe. A freeway frontage road or something. 4-j -~~ Siddoway: Those are all questions that we're going to be exploring. Specifically (inaudible) ITD has a consultant for the engineering work on the interchange where ~- -~:# (inaudible) in that process as well and they've already (inaudible). In other words, full steam ahead. It is going to go fast and I may need copies for everyone of -right now there are six options. This is out of the access study that we finished this summer for ~`'_~'~ the layout alignment of the interchange. It's not set and won't be set until they go through the full environmental process. (Inaudible) some ideas of what they could be. The first page is a standard diamond on off ramps and then (inaudible). The next page ~~~" is what they call an offset diamond. It's still a diamond but they've realigned Ten Mile ~F. >~ Road to deal with existing subdivision (inaudible) site distant issues with the hill on the ~ ~~'~ Ridenbaugh Canal. The third page is for a modified southeast loop which tries to avoid :.~ ~ s ,~~ ~~ ~k~ ~ ~ -.: , , ,5 r ~~ i~ ~ i 4 ,~~ ~ ~ ' w - ~~ ` Y~ 1 l 5 ~ fi - ~~ ' ~ 2¢'p t ~ -~ . ( 5~ ~~ . sew ~} ',t'i~ r~ ,.ti,+L~y'``,1' 3 fi'_ f „~ t t ~~ - ' . , ~ ~ n {, ~= `, i k tt ci ..v . a 'F 15'1y ` 7! ~ ~ ~ - ry ~rJ 'S., , ~a~,' 2, ~~~ ~~ w ~ c ~ ~ {~~ ~~ hy+ 4 t :~ ' ~ ~ ~ fa?1 c sfi~_r f Y. F ~(~ I Y y ~~i~ti~ ~ ~fa~, + ~ ... ~ c~ r , r- ' ~~ , e ~ 3 1 S + t ~~ K .~ ~~ ~.. ; ~~~~ ~ F, ^ ~~~~ % Y s W~ si l 'E*a ~ ~r iy ' ' ` 1 `1 ~' i ,~,.~+ h ~" ~ ~. c- . .~ -4 I`~ F ;~ ';~~ 4 t, _' .~; ,~;. ,~. Y'`ih ~_, fd 1.: ~'L ~~~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special 1CIC~eting O November 29, 2005 Page 12 of 52 the existing residential subdivision and southwest corner by putting both the on ramp and the off ramp in the southeast comer. The next one does exactly the opposite (inaudible) these houses built along there they're going to be impacted tremendously by this new interchange lets us buy them out and build over (inaudible). Page Number six is called an offset single pointed urban interchange. It's alot - it's a bunch of flyovers that (inaudible) called the on off ramp at a single point. There's another one that didn't get put in as part of this package and it's just a standard single point interchange where they come off and they meet right directly in the center. So far the most interest has been in the standard diamond or the single point urban interchange that meets in the middle. Don't know which it will be. That's what the whole federal environmental process is all about is looking at all the issues and determining which is -these are some of the base line ideas of - Newton-Huckabay: So it would meet in the middle and then you would just have one stop light. Siddoway: One stoplight. It really helps facilitate the north south traffic movement along Ten Mile. Rather than having separate stoplights at the two on off ramps you have a single one but there are factors that go into that. They are most efficient when all the directions are fairly equal so they have (inaudible) how they're doing and make sure it's (inaudible). But this shows a lot of promise right here. It also happens to be one of the most expensive options almost double the standard diamond. Newton-Huckabay: Because of the bridges? ~~ ~~ Siddoway: Because it's almost all in structures. It's more expensive. It actually requires the least amount of right of way because horizontally it doesn't really go out ~° ' that much it just -and it becomes a lane and goes up to the bridge then meets in the ~: ~ _; - center. It requires the least amount of right of way but it has so much structure to it that it's one of the most expensive. Borup: Wouldn't it have the greatest amount of (inaudible)? ~'.~'a; Siddoway: The least amount. For close signals that are trying to operate for two way _. traffic you don't -you're too close to function at any type of an efficient movement. With ~=' a single light you can actually move better. You know everyone's coming to one. ~~~:"''' Whether it will be or not I mean (inaudible). t; : Newton-Huckabay: So the 20 million dollars is enough to build it? _: ~~ Siddoway: No. Newton-Huckabay: How much does it cost? Siddoway: The standard diamond was estimated about 26. The single point urban interchange about 45 or so and then that's just for the interchange and I can't remember .e-.w.xasyrSaw.. .Fr.~4.:'`41: ~A.r^ t •k ,~ - •.s °T - , .i - ,... I 5.;~:~n ..y,;- "`'~.x' ~s ~?'~ r } !.: s '#a'~II~3 k x.` 4+ak z d}r<„:,a sti~t~~;1.~'t °;i.~.'`•;.~'. ..tit "r7'~r9^~",?.~~.,p-'y~~~ ~.~ `.nc ,st. F ~,;•t :,~.'a - .r'.t+ e s .,y ,~ yiq ..+ :.y ~;. +. .~z~ . E +~ Sei'. ?;t5."<' : ~¢.l •~,, a~; F ; ~v.~. ~.•. ::lS~`,: .n_ <";-'s'~tKK"a.."~P'?.'4a .'li!+~ie`h4C~tl•~x ~ ~ "t ~•' ' ~ ' x~, `~' r.`l':•i i~ ~ !' i ~' ~%ik:~, ~• f ~, . ~~'e.~. ~.. ; ~ ~~ a ,. _ _ . °. :~ * 'r ati. ~Y.:`"?~'~<I ~~~> 16' ~.~'li _ `!. ~', .. a is I .. ;. . :.. ... ,~ ~ l~ -..:.- - ~1_ _4. '. y~'~!~k"~~4 /a~_ _ 'te`a `~^ r~ .,~ 4 u~ '~ .. .. . tY en's. ~'~~. e:' ..n'e., ~ ..~ ~•' .~,°~ . ..~: .~ .k'•'.'~ .. ., ..t r,.•.. . `i '~:' ..- .. .a4. .C .. - . .... .';~ ,... x h,,, :. ~g:a ,a. •.~+:~x~o-,`,.".~,'?~`~r.~,1(} r.f§~:•~._.e 5 .}.K j.. ~ ~ ~ y~ r~<•^ l..r.'#.,. <*~.7`a. . ~( yfF.~ ...~f3:~s:~~p~'y.,:.~.4• f ~^` ~ { ~ Y.°~„t , ~ ~ ' ~ ' • : :'i ~3{~ '`f'~,,';.ry ~ ti6~ ~~~"~.~ Y.~'%'~• '.Lek 1 }l .~ '~. a /` ..~s .fin `. , i' Y' i°i t~ C ;i. .i:• . nr `; Meridian Plannin & Zonin S ecial fV~eetin • November 29, 2005 Page 13 of 52 ,_ - if any of the cost for the extra lane on the freeway is figured in that total but I can go back and look. Only the things the feds are pushing for is they're saying look, you put in an interchange at Ten Mile our level of service on the freeway drops between Meridian '''``" ~ y and Ten Mile because logically people are wanting -more people are going to drive on v that side to get to the Ten Mile Interchange rather than get off Meridian. Therefore you ?,~" ~ , •I A,~.~ a <.~. i 4' k: ~Y .~i >'. ~,: . ; -~, -~. ~> -~~ v_r ~. ..~ ~: Y:3 ,~ ~"~ y~[ ffi~4 'I ~~ .' ,Y~.' ..~ 1 ~'. ~~ ~~ g~~~~ b, v ~` P .' need to add an extra lane. That s great except that the Meridian Road overpass won t accommodate another lane underneath it as it's currently built. We're trying to come up with a package over time that builds the Ten Mile Interchange, rebuilds the Meridian Road interchange and adds an extra lane. The 49 million dollar certainly doesn't cover all of that it's (inaudible) project but it's all going to be (inaudible). Rohm: Don't use the contractor (inaudible). Siddoway: Any other questions on the (inaudible). Zaremba: It's neat to see that there are actually drawings happening. Siddoway: There are drawings there. There is a lot of that - Zaremba: Tangible feel that it's going to happen. Siddoway: There's an adoptive access (inaudible--------------). It's moving forward. It accrues on the transportation improvement program for three years from now which six months ago I would have never dreamed that that time would ever be adopted for 2008 construction. Zaremba: Can we have a placard on it that names it the Steve Siddoway Interchange. Siddoway: I think it will be the Mayor de Weerd Interchange if anything. Okay what is the status of the continuation of Pine near Nola? Pine near Nola has been recently reclassified as an arterial road. Prior to this year it was not it was a collector road. What the reclassification does for us is it allows ACRD to charge impact fees that would go toward the cost of that. (Inaudible) impact fees are that they only go towards arterial roads. They -ACHD is not likely to build it on their own. They know the development is coming along we've been (inaudible) build it for them. What's holding up development and building it though or what has been is the fact that it's not currently impactly eligible. It is not in the current capital improvement plan or CIP for short. We'll talk about CIP quite a bit. CIP is ACHD's 20 year plan. Only projects that are in the 20 year plan are eligible for impact fees. We've been very fortunate recently to get developers that have stepped up and build projects like the Ustick Eagle Intersection, Eagle Road near Silverstone and projects like that have been built by developers. Pine on the other side of Eagle Road is another example. Developers have paid for those roads but they get reimbursed by ACHD on the back end after building it as development comes into the area and pays their impact fees they get reimbursed. The development builds ahead of schedule we get reimbursed over time on the back end as ~~ ~4r1 1 „ ~#1., y.y~ 'S~[y"A ~-f IC= asm-. ,.. :.. Kll.;; (. ~ '~ ~A ~ : ~' i 7f 1~' t ~1.i +Y~ i'~' -~; J ` Y ~ 4. t~ MS~ ;. ~. ~ : t ;. r 51 r ~' ' ~ ',£, ' ' ,. ~: i-_ , :y( } ~ ~~ (.~~. A M h 1 Y q:F,~<r,CS 4' ,hR')r :Y 'd. .tY. 'V.. .~.'r 3 N~~..:f ). i491,. ...; +'~ .:..;;;;,fir..:: •..>;..~:... .r.: i'. +'~~s; t " . 7Ywy^, r~t q n ~*s . -' r Y y ~~i ~' 't r ~+ ' x # _ _ ~ :' ~: Y. _ ::.;.: ~.. a, ~,. ~ ~ t - Meridian Planning & Zoning Special~ting November 29, 2005 Page 14 of 52 ~ _~~ impact fees come in. The development between Nola and Eagle Road wants to do the ~~~.'~ same but right now they're not eligible to get reimbursed for (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: So that project you'll hear it January 19~". I think - I mean it was worth ~ ~ waiting for. I finally turned to them and said is it really worth putting this on hold for a year? 1.3 million or something like that. ~. ~ ~~;::; r Siddoway: Yes at least that. Current construction costs for a mile of road are running ~} :- between three and five million dollars a mile. Getting closer to five million but the way ~~ ~` ~' (inaudible) costs are going up and it's (inaudible). ~;- ~ ~~i Zaremba: That's in addition to right of way. You're just talking about the pavement ~: ~.~ right? tr' ~ ;F~~ Siddoway: I think it's the whole thing. r ~ ~ 5. ;~{ Hood: Steve can you explain maybe a little bit -you mentioned the CIP and projects '~~~ there in the 20 year plan are only eligible if you use impact fees for those projects. See ~ry what happens with these North Meridian - because I know that basically none of the roads in North Meridian are around the CIP yet they are all paying into this impact fee 'j` i pot. What happened to the traffic impact zone basically it would be you know they -TM~~ would take four square miles and the money generated in that four square miles can ~°,~4~~ only go towards improving the roads of those four square miles how is that set up with ~ ,, i the fairly new (inaudible) ordinance with. What about if meridian's best buddies with ACHD and Kuna is on the outs can we take Kuna impacting monies and spend them on - a (inaudible) or how does that work? ~- M ~ ~ Siddoway: Yes there are four impact fee zones. It runs along basically along Eagle - Road north south and along the freeway east west to make it simple. So, Kuna's projects, Kuna's impact fees can and do build South Meridian Roads and Eagle, ~`~~~ ~~ Middleton and Star impact fees do build North Meridian Roads but North Meridian >= Roads also are known for the impact fees also build Eagle and Star projects as well. I " : It's all pulled together. ! ~ Newton-Huckabay: So this project on the 19~" we're actually going to bring that road µ ~ ~' through? How did they get around the CIP then? ~. Siddoway: They don't -there is a CIP update going on right now. The CIP is updated S~ x ~~~ every three years. This happens to be the year they are updating. It will be adopted - }~ well they are pretty far into it right now. It won't be adopted until 06. There is a meeting ~~ . tomorrow night that I'm going to at ACHD on the schedule. F,'- .. : Newton-Huckabay: And it's on there. as .s k: J ~, ~..;:'.. '..-p } v' > ,_ h ~ J5 i''~,1;f '~1 7. W ~a ~ ~ ~> . ~ ' ~~ ~ ~ - t r `~i s~ i }' ~~' i ~ l x - 33~ r ~'~i+t~T~r 1 j'~W,~Y ~ , v_ ~ ~ rte ' 1 r ~ i ~ ~ ~ r ~. _ ~ , ~ ~ F ~ t ~ '~i ~ 4`: I ;~tr~>f~'f '~ z l `~~ ~ ,~ ~_ ~ ~ ~ I ~f ~ w; .a+r r ~' £_ ~,?l . - ~~; ~ i ; , , _ ~~i~i .. ~ ' Qµ~ •,~~• ~7~` e •~ ~ ~ ~r ," ~ , 'i ~'tk § ~ - k :~ ~ '~ na .y~ ~i . ~ ~,~ ~~7 i ~ ~ a~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - .. E l t ~ $Fir. ! ~ y ~ y. - ~~~ i n- y ~~ ~ 7v"F~ ,~ ~ ,. ' ••4~ ~-,. ~~ a,~ ~ ll~ t~' ~ ri ,i i t I I :'~ a s ""v r~ i. ~'. ~ f ~. ~~ { ~ . w U, c r MYi ~ ~~ "yy4. ~'+,+~. f~~,e't' yu Y.N~l ~ ) ~~3 i _ _ a.. ~ ~ ~ ~ !F~~ i~. ~. -N i~ gB ~a ^: 7 4 jj J ~ `~~.~{~~~ yr.~4. k f , T~ it .,.-~,» tT f p y ~ q ~ t ~ T fCk t y ~ v R"., GP ,~ ,J^. ~ _. . ~ ~ I. ~ I I ~ F' ~ J t.. j ~ ~,~rTbr~g^~ ALD ~' P! N l~l ; ~ ~+ ~{ ~ y~,F ~ t'' Ly A T~~ ~ ,~ ! "ie - l~ ~ - ~. 4 _ r~~ w~ t v s3 ~r. ; ~~ ~ i . f :~~ s s , ~, . ~ - ., ~ a ' Meridian Planning & Zoning Special IGI ~eting November 29, 2005 , Page 15 of 52 Siddoway: What's that? ~ ~ ~ Newton-Huckabay: And it's on that? ~F;~~;r_. Siddoway: Yes. It's not on there until it's adopted technically but it's on there. The draft is showing it clearly as a need. I've been told that 99.9 percent it's there the same with a lot of the North Meridian Area roads that aren't in there currently. For example, ~` Dave Turnbull has expressed desire to build a project at the Meridian McMillan intersection next to Paramount and next to the school that's coming in 2007 but it's not _~ eligible for impact fees. It's not in the primary plan. When they did the CIP three years ago we never dreamed that North Meridian would look like it does today. Everything is now flagging -we're going to see all those projects showing up in the North Meridian ~~;-'x;~~< and become eligible for impact fees. My role right now is just to track all of these areas that I know there is interest in plus others and just say just make sure they're flagging. ;_; `~ • The CIP is the -ACHD really makes it technically based period. They really try not to let politics or they don't -for example our priority list that we came up with for the city has no bearing whatsoever on what goes into the CIP. That's used for (inaudible) ~ ~ °_~, program not for the CIP. The CIP is the technical analysis of needs and those that flag ~. ~ is the (inaudible) 20 years may get in those that don't, don't. ,, , . ~;~; ~;~: _ ~:. ~`{'~~ Zaremba: One of the things that has (inaudible) in the past is that ACHD has been r^y `° basing their projections of 20 year needs on Compass's model ~~ ~~ ~~- i Siddoway: That's where I was just going to go. '~~`" ~ ~~ Zaremba: Oh okay I'm sorry. Didn't mean to spoil your - ;: ~ ~~,,~ Siddoway: No go ahead. ~;,: ~ , Zaremba: -and Compass's model notoriously under predicts. They - it all sounds very ' .'~ reasonable when they explain it to you what they deduct from the possibilities but the r' . ; result is that the Compass model doesn't show the need that even we as { Commissioner's know we've approved more projects than Compass thinks they're going ~`~ to have in the next 20 years. ,. ~.,,,~: ~~~ ~.-y~ Siddoway: When I teamed that this is strictly a technical analysis that became very important to me to say we need to make sure we have good data going into this - F;_ ~ '`~`II Zaremba: What's the technical? ' Siddoway: -this garbage isn't (inaudible) you know. So, Brad and I spent some time ~ ~,^ ; this summer going through the -our cities broken down into what they call TAZ's Traffic 4, . ~~ Analysis Zones. Within each of those zones they have a certain number for households ~'`~'~`; and employment. 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Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Feting November 29, 2005 Page 16 of 52 Gary Inselman over at ACRD and he agreed to have their consultant use it on the (inaudible). Canning: It looks like our Compass numbers are off again. When the Tempographics Advisory Committee started to do the population projection numbers for communities in motion it was over - it was almost three days ago. They say they -the control total they gave us to work with is proving to be (inaudible--------------------). We started looking at like - I'm on - I was on that committee and fought for every single building permit I could coming my way. I got half the building permits that the entire county is coming to meridian and it's still not going to be enough. I fought to get every last single one I could out of that control total but that control total is just way off (inaudible). It's a 20 year projection now we could get all of them in five years or we could slow down. We don't know. Siddoway: What raised this issue to the forefront of my awareness was there was another potential partnership to build Overland Road between Ten Mile and Linder. The developers' interest in doing part of it was its not flagging. It didn't flag in the current CIP at the year. It's not eligible for reimbursement of impact fees. We started asking why and it came out that the -because the Ten Mile Interchange was included in their analysis. It wasn't that they didn't put that in. The Ten Mile Interchange was in but the TAZ's around it on the south side were very low and (inaudible). Once (inaudible) that didn't fly I guess they just decided to take it (inaudible). Downtown Traffic Plan timeline schedule to be done. Last month we made a presentation to the Ada County Highway District they did adopt the plan. It is now their adopted plan. It's no longer a question of what will they build. It's now a question of when will they build it. They have adopted it as the preferred alternative. Funding is the big issue and I can tell you that in the draft five year work program that's going on right now they've split the project into two phases. The first phase is from the freeway to Franklin. The second phase is from Franklin to Fairview. Phase one is programmed to be done and have design in 07, right of way in 08 and construction in 09. There is a decent chance that - I'm going to be watching for a way to do this but if some other project slips somewhere in the county that we can pull some funds to do the design this year. We may be able to bump that timeline up a year to get it constructed and underway. That's my goal. What's adopted right now -well it's not adopted yet but what's proposed for the plans right now is construction 09 for phase one. For phase two which is the section that comes through that comes by here what they show is design in 2011, right of way in PD which is intended to be 2012 but PD means Preliminary Development. It's just outside their five year work program horizon. Then construction is unfunded. It's that unfunded construction that we're going to have to wrestle with and that's what I'm exploring some partnership opportunities to get that into the funding category. Zaremba: The advantage to actually having it on ACHD's scope as eventually being built the way that Meridian wants it is that when projects come to the Commission or the staff then eventually the Commission when can now say we know this section of Meridian is going to be five lanes. We know this section of Main is going to be something or other so that the arguments we've made over the last year or so with ~.; ~~ ;isri, t.}~y~~y:iT ~ f t '~ ~ _ t} #""fsi .r,~~'=.~s.;.:tF ~~. ' g '~I+. Y b ~ W ~~ ~ J ` ~iF .: ~•~'G~y I t 'j i h AN9~"'r9R.v ~ ' S 1v R ) . 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Nit 34:k ! ~ •: , , . . vt ,~. • K4~i r ~., s I 3" ' ~ l ' ..1. ` .*• 1 ~'~F 1 V • ' jJ~ [ E, II { y t C {~ ~ ~ t t . ul . pN ! 1 ~ ,, ,.Y ~ r T E s"x ~ 7.{x. },:'~ ~1 1' ~ , ' ..I. ~J .. .,w xti 3 ti d.. ~d)Li~r . .... x ~~ `;a_, „s r.« ,r. .'Yr ~, 'r. .__~.~_: ~ ~ ~:z,~~ a -;~~ ~; t,i ;;_; .;> t ,,. ~ti' t ~~~~ ,, ::> ,. ;y f , ~.: . 0 Meridian Planning & Zoning Special lOfeeting November 29, 2005 Page 17 of 52 people that want to develop how close you can develop to the right of way. It's now in writing that it's going to be this wide of a right of way so we can say no you can't develop into that. That gives us some strength in preserving that area or preserving what will eventually be the right of way for it. Siddoway: It's a little discouraging to think it might be 2015 before we actually see it built but that's the reality of when there will be funding. Zaremba: The one thing that I would worry about and this goes to back to several years ago when there was in fact a plan to put an interchange at Five Mile and the Interstate at the same time that they were talking about the Y reconstruction. Somebody said well we shouldn't be tearing both of those up at the same time so they let Five Mile slip and it eventually disappeared. I worry that the timeframes that you have given have Waltman and the southern -Franklin to the freeway of this project happening at the same time as the Ten Mile Interchange. Even if it means tearing them both up at the same time I would not let anybody say oh we ought to have one of them slip so that we're not tearing them both up because one of them will disappear. Canning: Eagle Road would become - Newton-Huckabay: Yes but we'll have Locust Grove by then. Canning: That's true. Zaremba: Yes Locust Grove will be in. And Isaid - Newton-Huckabay: So it will have no net gain. (Inaudible discussion) Siddoway: Ten Mile currently has no access to the freeway so it's really just the construction headache of when Main and Meridian are under construction. That would be with or without Ten Mile. Canning: Right. Zaremba: So don't let anybody suggest that one of them should slip and not to do them both at the same time. Siddoway: To end with, I made copies for you of - at the end of October the City Council approved a prioritized list of projects that came from the Transportation Task Force and they juggled a few around and approved a final list. This list has been sent to ACRD, Compass, and ITD as our order of priority for projects at least for this year. You're welcome to take one of those. Then I made a copy for you of all the Meridian projects that are in the current five year work program as opposed to the one that's - we're going through an update right now and that one's not finalized yet but as far as S:S'v.... _.. ?.. ; ~~~ lS s ~t r' :.: ~':?~~ _-t:l ~: ~~-, _'; ' i ,.. ~~ f~~'i :; ~ _. :~Aj :~ ~./ ,ti r ~_, II .: a=: `~ ~' ~: y . ,~;i, ~~ :::~, 3 ~, '' R. ;,, . ~s.. .~ t. ~~ ~., ~f ~:`,F s_; ~r ~>xl ,~ , ;;.~~~ . 's~ t ~' Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Nfeeting November 29, 2005 Page 18 of 52 what's in the five year work program we've been working under throughout this year. These are the projects and their costs. Zaremba: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: Thanks Steve. Canning: Okay and then to answer my questions we'll change directions and ~ (inaudible) that way. I think the easiest way to maybe describe this is we'll pretend like we're a little piece of property and we'll go through the transitions for being in the county to being in the city to being inexpiable and serviceable by the city. I think that will maybe structure this a little bit. Let's pretend we're one of these parcels that's just south into the white. We're in the winter white land okay so we're in Ada County. We had fire service because the Rural Fire District doesn't change. So, what we have is R- R zone and if you turn to page 6 this is from the Ada County code. It's an older version so a few things may have changed over the years. In R-R zoning Rural Residential zoning you have two options. You have (inaudible) lot subdivision or you have a non farm subdivision. (Inaudible--------------------). The non farm subdivision is a whole different area. The page just before there's a little graphic for the RUT cluster subdivision it's got a star. This basically you can imagine the same thing for a non farm subdivision. You have a cluster of houses and then you have a larger 75 percent dedicated open space. The other one you can think about is Dartmoore. Do you remember that one that Kingsbridge came off? That's a non farm. That's an older one but that's how they look a cluster development with big wide open space. Okay the non farm subdivisions -the ordinance was rewritten in 2000 and quite a few things changed. There was always an emphasis on clustering. It was added that you could be doing it to create open space and trails and that was mostly for the Boise Foothill's area and then also to preserve prime agricultural land which had been the primary purpose before that. They add land continue farming and things like that. On 287 though going down to the standards that I've kind of highlighted there you get two units per 10 instead of one unit per 10 so for every 10 acres you have you have got two units. If you have 30 you have six. If you have 40 you still have six. If you have 35 it doesn't mean you get seven you still just get six. That's the way it's supposed to be. (Inaudible-------------- ------) we have basically smaller lots. We have a maximum of one acre. They are supposed to be between three quarters of an acre, a half an acre to an acre. (Inaudible--------------------) you can go up to an acre only if they have irrigation water. Okay we'll keep on going because the one that really gets tricky here is you have to have an adequate water supply. If you have 10 or more residential lots that means a community well that's a big ticket item. If you go to the next page on 288 on number four you must connect to community sewage disposal system. That's a huge item that's a very expensive item. You can do basically one through five in the R-R district but it's very expensive. Usually what happens if they're anywhere close to the city they start begging the city for water and sewer? (Inaudible--------------------) the only time that know of that the city has consented was because they threatened (inaudible---------------- ----). I don't know if Bruce (inaudible--------------------). -: .~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~ ;. ~. :. ~~ ~ ~ ' Y - r- ..7 n .. ~ ; ~ . ~ c'~ s t f ~ ' ~: < . „ ~"~, ~ ~, ~ <" ~ a ,n~ F ~;,,a•• ' .~' x ~ A b ~ ~ ~ F .. ~.: f } _ _ h~k ~R, 11 rx C /"J. ~'~.` ur t }~^ T zP R ' -~. .'* e: a y_, .ut ~ L ~ ~% ~ y ~ x~ ~ 4' , ~ ~ a~~ y ~`'f~r~+~ o.d F - ~ & ~~ ~ ... j~ 1r µ Y'~Y'~- a~~ L_ .- a e ~~~ ~Y , ~ ' + $ 2~ ~~'.~T~SY r4'C'y~4 `.yk~ ~ ~~, t i., i s t ~~ ~! x~{ i~ ~.~ u, ~ ,.g n ' , •-~. ~ r { ~ r ~t x r Kyy ~; a~; cp ~~ ~, s, :.: '~`~ .;: .r ; Q r ~:. *_- i ~~: -" ~_~.. r °- - ~:.~:. ~, t„, '=.c~ ~y,:;; ~~ ~~~ ~`' , ~;: ; c-~ ~. ~;, ! i 4 ~ "s; ~~ ,. ; e ~~ ~';~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special IDILseting November 29, 2005 Page 19 of 52 Borup: Black Rock. Canning: Black Rock -are we sending sewer down? Cole: Yes. Canning: Sending the sewer pipe. Zaremba: A pipe to receive the services. Canning: Yes. We are servicing a non farm development outside the area of city impact mostly because we didn't want United Water coming into what will be the future City of Meridian territory. It was (inaudible) and defend your territory. Nary: (Inaudible) and Vienna were like that. Canning: They were not non farms though. So just give me a little bit and we'll get to that. Moe: You made a statement that you said was outside of the area of impact? Canning: Yes it is outside of the area of impact and we are providing it with city services. Zaremba: That was going to be my question or my clarification. Even though it's county if they are inside the area of impact but not inside our annotation line they have to build their sewage system to our standards. Canning: Okay we'll go to that one next. Zaremba: I'm getting ahead of you? I'm sorry. Canning: Yes I wanted to say one of the questions was what are the fundamental development rights inside and outside the county (inaudible) under the county and outside the area of city impact. Really that's all you can do outside of the area of city impact is a non farm development or 10 acre lot neither of which is terribly popular at this point. The non farm because of the expense 10 acres -most people can't afford to buy 10 acres when land is going at 100,000 dollars an acre. It gets to be very pricy. So the next one we'll talk about is we'll move just inside that area of city impact so we have an area of city -we're inside the area of city impact but sewer lines are a couple miles away and you don't want to pay to have sewer to your -bringing sewer to your development and you can't be annexed anyway. What options are available for you? Well there's something - as soon as you're put into an area of city impact you're zoning changes from rural residential to rural urban transition. That's the RUT you see all over our zoning maps is that. Those I have (inaudible) for you on 2-B-1. There is the purpose statement. It's pretty clear that for the area of impact agricultural uses can ;_~, ~;'; :< ,4 € `~ a ~, ' ~ ~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special eeting ~;~.~:~~r. November 29, 2005 w:° } ' Page 20 of 52 -~ ~ ~,~ r continue and rural (inaudible) any -the design standards are intended to allow redevelopment of that property at higher densities when urban services are available. That new agricultural uses new ones should be limited to those that don't cause a lot of ~~ ~ impact to surrounding properties like cattle feed lots things like that are (inaudible--------- ~ ~ -----------). What are your options? One you've got a five acre lot you can do with ~~~ standard five acre subdivision. A lot of them have occurred in the past. I don't think I've ~~,`~~',wa seen one since I've been here that's come through that door. No one has (inaudible) ~~ I five acre lot subdivision. Virtually because we made it a lot harder and I'll get to that. r,~,-,, You do have that option of five acres or this RUT cluster subdivision. This is very ~ similar to the non farm. You take a small portion they can be one acre lots if they're - ,~ ' going to be on individual septics or they can be smaller if they've got a community ~~`=~ sewage disposal system. Again, the price on these disposal systems is just r °~' ~ I astronomical compared to the benefit of doing this new lot sub we're not saying that. ; ~ , s ~z;:~ Also shortly after this was done Central District Health stopped really approving septics on one acre parcels so you have to do a community septic which isn't as bad and you ~u, , ~'= can use your future development area for you (inaudible). Some of them have done r :~~`~ that. I have seen one of those come in since we've been here. (Inaudible------------------ --. --) that's what's allowed by - ;~~' ' ~~~ Zaremba: Do you see the RUT's and things like that? ft-rat Canning: Yes. ~~ Zaremba: We don't but you see them? ~~' Canning: No I see them. I comment on - I get everything and I try to comment on all of ' :. ~~ them either yes go away we don't care or yes we have a lot of concems. I've never `~ seen them address our concerns our act on what we asked for but we do comment from ~_~.: time to time. Now - Zaremba: It's like the letter from Wendell Bigham. 4 ~ Canning: Yes it kind of is. Now the question comes how does our Comprehensive Plan effect that development? Now before I was talking about zoning and as you know once .'T you're zoned you've got your right to whatever that is basically. The Ada County does k implement our Comprehensive Plan. They have adopted our Comprehensive Plan as ~~' applying within the area of city impact. So if you came in for that residential subdivision ~~ ~;a~ ~> ~-~ and you were in one of our commercial areas hopefully they would turn you down because it's not consistent with our Comp Plan. Now there's another very important element of our Comp Plan that you guys don't hear us talk about very much with you s ~ because our services are always available or will be made available or something along ~; that line. It was -there is a small section of it in the printed one that you have and then ~a a.r °''" it was redone as a resolution and added to (inaudible--------------------). The important ~ ~t' thing here is the City of Meridian has said to Ada County basically that's who this was ~,,~~~~ amendment was for is that we don't want your community sewage disposal systems. '"" We don't want anything to do with them (inaudible--------------------) doing all the ones n~. ~a ~x ;z! ~„ c ~ ~ t' ~!! ,. _ • ". L". ° . "~; •.sfi.V,..~Y,..'.js~'h.~,~R;%~:~ Y:i ~.~ ,``~ ,r;§. r >~a ~~'~~ ~,;,},~.'x:3 S.~ns.'r'~`y '•. _..~ _. .z. • i3~~~MyiV'SnS w4Y. ~ ~•••l ~~~ ~ ~'~~ ~ ~ ~ ' fi .~:~~ } ..~~ ' n ~ ~ '- .~. ~ ~ '~'._ ..'.€ ~ ^.~ ~,, ~,x`a.` -~ i i. - ~ a .~ - +~• ;~jr~',': '<~ss°,,,~-,,: ,~ ~ Y~ '"~;.~ : y,,',. yyyz`^''~•;,i~SfiY:e i~ " sk«~ .,~r a'Es.'"~r Y~ ~fr3 4 ~~ ~ 41 ~ t .r'~ ~ { s 17 t~ ~ ~ 'y; .: -~'<, nSy _ ~:~.. •„~s:%'y•~-.. ., _ Is, '1~;z~.s-~.,..;rk'z. r ~ I ~~~. i ; .. r w t' ... y k:.> 7 ~~1F ~'`. . . ,~~d aj '.ii ~~;. ~ t.r,:...., .. ~ ;~;~,r,:. ,r 9. "~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special eeting November 29, 2005 Page 21 of 52 ~" ,; ,, '"'' around time he's serving time right now. He skipped out on a lot of contracts and has ~~,~ left a lot of people with -the attractive thing about the systems he was proposing he fi ~ promised to manage them as well and that's where he tend to fail was in the ~ ~ management but then he failed to hire sufficient people to manage them and basically " y (inaudible--------------------). Anyway, what the City of Meridian has said is we don't want your community sewage disposal system. Anything in our area of city impact we want ~ sewered by the City of Meridian. That has been very different from any other `_ : community. One, like Eagle they don't provide their own services they have a sewer -~~I district that does that so that sewer district (inaudible). The City of Boise has continued .., ~'~~~'` to provide services outside the city limits in southwest Boise even though they've ;. complained for 20 years about it and complained about what the county proves that "_;-.~ . uses their sewer system so that's the other kind of weird one is when you extend your sewer system even though you're not in the actual ones approving the development. ' ~ That's what Vienna Woods and Edinburgh were. The city felt the need in that case like ~ ~~ they felt like they've made that commitment to those property owners so they went - ahead and provided that service even though they couldn't annex them at that time. _ 'L' F That's the only subdivisions we've done them to. ~= r P ; (Inaudible discussion) ~ - Zaremba: But in most cases they sign new agreements that as soon as there was a pathway to annexation they would. €' ~~~~~:~~3; _, Canning: In most points the city has that on theirs and (inaudible). It's been -the city , ~~ ~:~~~ learned from the mistakes of Boise City and said we're not going to do this on r. "' -` (inaudible) we want this control and this is how we will control where and how these ~,~ things occurred. It's been a great tool. It really has been a wonderful tool for managing what occurs in Ada County. Now the property owners get really frustrated because they ;' are really kind of stuck. There is not much we can do until we get there. We've been r; ; .. getting there pretty dam fast really especially (inaudible--------------------). ~ ~, (Inaudible discussion) Canning: I think I addressed your question Wendy. Newton-Huckabay: Yes the other only other was if it's eligible to be annexed into the city can they still develop in Ada County. Canning: And the answer is no on some things. PUD's plats and I used to think it was `~ CU's but it isn't. It's just PUD's and plats. If they want to do a plat they have to be ~''~' refused annexation first or if they want to do a PUD they have to be refused annexation. (Inaudible--------------------). r,' `; .. ~' : Hawkins-Clark: (inaudible--------------------) goes to the county that are next to the city limits the county may apply for (inaudible--------------------). ~~ F {, Y ~ ~ r S S fi' i' f} F'. ~ ~ l~-Aa.'- ~` ' ; ,~ 4 ~ ~~ ' ~`F~ Y.4_ . r' 4R FF v. t~, ~V T f ;. .r r` ',, v .r ; ~ , ~ ~ Y ~ ~ x~ ~ ~ ~l ~~f~ ~ i, r ~ r s i •. !w J ~r s ~x~LS~ , - ,`-~Y~ ~+'~ ~IBr k , o,,C:~~y 7~~'' E ENV _ ! S ~ ~ t f ~6R! ,P _ ~r~~ ~• T..~i- ,L y{ l- Tom. HT s ar t~ '~d ~x~x `s ~, t ~ , r ~S ~ F y t ~ Zr+ - Y~~~ F ~t ~~-~. ~~ ~~. ~ -M ~ ~ i ~ , 4 ~ ~ > a~:. a ~ F. ~'4 4 ' t FE i i ;_'~°~ ,.~ sr .; . r;_' r ;,_ , ~~ :. ;~> , i3 ...< ;~: ;~ ~, ~. =?-: ~: ~F u;;: Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Feting November 29, 2005 Page 22 of 52 v Canning: Yes and they're doing one right now. They're doing a cell tower. Hawkins-Clark: (inaudible--------------------) they actually required that applicant to come talk to us and apply for annexation. Canning: And that's in our area of city impact agreement. Now the blueprint for good growth has talked about this issue a lot. One of the big focus points has been this public -adequate facility (inaudible). The other one is how do we address this issue of what development incurs in cities and what developments can incur in the county and how do we do this. Right now we're tentatively talking about two kinds of lines. One would be where services would be available in five years and where the city ultimately wants to go and what could you do in those different areas depending on how long it was going to take sewer to get back there. I think we're still looking at something when a non farm development or cluster -because they are really kind of (inaudible------------- -------) provide an open space around them so that they don't complain (inaudible--------- -----------) for those hookup fees that those (inaudible). That's another big one. The city is here by the way (inaudible--------------------) septic system. We're here now and you need to abandon that. That would be the other thing to say putting aside from (inaudible). We're having the developer that's going to do the other property pay for that for those. (Inaudible--------------------) we've been fortunate in that (inaudible----------- ---------) all of our sewer under water and therefore can (inaudible--------------------). Newton-Huckabay: Well how does it -for example that Avamore? That is a fairly dense development in the county. Canning: I didn't talk about those. That's a planned community. If you have control of what sits under 40 acres or more you can basically create a new little town. (Inaudible). Zaremba: They could even incorporate it as a city if they wanted to. ~~ Canning: Yes it's difficult to incorporate as a city for the same reason you mentioned before. It takes about four years before those taxes start coming in (inaudible) to do right at first. Newton-Huckabay: We don't have enough open space in our area of impact didn't the county now that would be a real threat here though. Canning: There are some areas that four square miles to the rest I was just a little bit ,. ~~```"' concerned (inaudible--------------------). Newton-Huckabay: Out in the - ,; °~~ Canning: Part of the reason they want to get that in our area of impact. There are ~~~: developers between -there are developers that had optioned up very large tax not quite contiguous. They were you know a piece here a piece there but they added up to about 1,000 or more acres between Ten Mile and Meridian. I was a little bit worried *y',F < . t;~p: ; ji#, } .i I ~~~,y } ~r 3 x i.Cj 5 / .c37 ic; xE.} `:N`i, y'`: j'~~~-'•}h r,'. '4^< ,q.~~' ~a•"n~-~ « t .xey Y~ .~f~ 1~' , i °L ,r f '~,~. Y "'" ~ k; .i} x~„'C:;~d..~ ti ^.f~ 3Y t~•i~P;''.t s§~~ 'M; 4~. `k~'.,~.1'„-,+,,~^. •, ~ lfi r,y-~~L~'~ ~ry~~.~~~ .,, ~, ~;~ y..t ~ ,/ :-`~ ~ } ..fi Vii. 'kua•`< _ ` + ~).p~ i' ~.4hi~ r,~J~:` +dl' ~F ~ G 1{ff ~d u~f %.~:[ :~~`,%'•;}y '~^ ~:~.~xi. '.y, .,.... ~ ~. '` Wig: ~~[[ ~VFF~ K~$ ><..., ~ i+q•; ~a ^<~r+ j.i ';~~: i^., i t 7 ~Xi r~3 +t~'#%y~}'tr'z f}, g... ,. ,b %~ix i~ .6~ „~ ,•:~'.~3t.; t!Ar"~.~ ;?,~i~y~t, j.,~+~"z '"~ ~.h u ~ f ~sj ~~ R r F ~~~.4z+ ;}. a ~,.~a.,, r'~x r `i si[ lY ,. «~~t~`'cslpli .yam, a JJ +' r ~,f?i ~~-.. Sh i Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Meeting ~ November 29, 2005 Page 23 of 52 ~~',.;:: ~~:~ about that one. I think there's has fallen through. One of us is going to be there soon. ~`" ` They don't want to go to the expense of putting in their own sewer treatment (inaudible-- ~°~ ~~'~, ------------------). At this point, I'm not seeing the real threat of playing communities the y4 ' way that Eagle does or Star or Boise city. They are much more threatened by them. ~ti~ ,; . :.~~ *End of Side Two* b_ ~ .w>~ Hawkins-Clark: -basically say here's your timeframe you know here's how you're going ~`~'~~~~~ to pay for all of your services. Here's your (inaudible) they've got - it's a pretty intense ,: application. .~.._ r ~ ~ ~~ Newton-Huckabay: Well the benefit - I mean the pay off at the end must be worth it. There's that Avamore that's huge and then what Hidden Springs -isn't that what ~-°' ~' ~' Hidden Springs is? , `~`~ ' ' s just how big of a hole we want to dig. s just the -it Canning: Yes the payoff is huge it ~~~ "~'""`~ You start here and that's when you option the land. You pay to option it. You pay for all 4,.,' =. these studies. You're paying interest to hold the land and then you're paying to develop w~:i the land and then you get to start selling. How long are you willing to be in debt before ~ ~~ ~` you break even? ~ ' ' Newton-Huckabay: Yes but you can amortize your startup costs over the beginning of _~ the project and not show aprofit - I mean if you have enough capital. :- :, ~; Canning: That could be seven years. It's just alot -right. d ; ry Newton-Huckabay: It's like growing a winery. ~, ~;-; Canning: Yes that's a good analogy. It's just your sunk for a long time but it pays off if ~~; =. you have the capital and you don't have any place better to invest it then it pays off. It's ' just not many people have the capital that's needed to do a (inaudible------------------------ ~ . ,.. ~, ~{a, ~k,;>; . , „ Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) Iwould - I mean if you're relatively confident that some ,~ ; ~;~;'-;'> municipality is going to get you services in five to six years why would you want to go to ~t° those expenses. Now when you're talking (inaudible) longer time. ~ ~,` . , Canning: Well and plus the way Eagle is set up you can't get past those five acre lots to ,;; ~, get them sewer anyway. (Inaudible--------------------). ~~~. . . . ~; , , ~= Nary: (Inaudible-----------------------------------) lots of money already but they're buying ::;::.` land that is pretty cheap because it's not accessible to services. It's not very close to ~ -` them to the communities and that's why they (inaudible--------------------) buy that cheap _ _ and let it ride for that five to seven or eight years. It might take them (inaudible). f - ' c _ . L'c ':. ~, rt ~;,-k~ r f~ t Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Feting November 29, 2005 Page 24 of 52 Canning: Hidden Springs was (inaudible) for a year. (Inaudible--------------------) Paramount I mean because David Turnbull was able to option up nearly all that section (inaudible------------------) 10 or 20 acres at a time (inaudible--------------------) it's difficult ~y'~ for it to be (inaudible). Zaremba: I asked Brad Miller one time (inaudible--------------------) how far out ahead do you have to be thinking and he said now he's buying property on the other side of Middleton. Newton-Huckabay: So the only real cost or detriment to a city though with a Planned ='~-' Community is that just the opportunity cost to revenue loss from impact fees? What '_~~~~ would be the big - '~ Canning: No, say one part right south of us it effectively blocks us from ever going further south because you can't get your (inaudible--------------------) definitely a - '' Newton-Huckabay: So in essence you're creating a bubble right in the middle of your- ~'Y1, Canning: Yes in your services. So, depending on how (inaudible--------------------) area of city impact. Ours I don't think you could see it. We would have to be willing to extend sewer to them so that they could develop. The only place I've seen maybe that Y_ .a , ':'~'~~'~ request coming through is (inaudible--------------------). Zaremba: Probably not tonight but sometime I would find it instructive to sit down `"'~'~~ (inaudible--------------------) somebody comes in and says I have to do four-plexes I can't <~~ afford to do three-plexes are they blowing smoke through their ears? I mean it's just - ~<&~~ how do they make that decision and what is it based on? Jerry Centers used to be able to counter that with some facts and figures but - ~` ° `~ Canning: Yes you know occasionally my husband will do a cost (inaudible------------------ --) and he shared one of those with me. Its a couple years old now but I can see if he's ~'` done one recently (inaudible--------------------). Zaremba: I don't want any proprietary information I wouldn't mind if it was an old one. 5~-,,x Canning: No he did -well it's just that you would have to update the custom height and ~:.., r°; ~ the (inaudible--------------------) but I'll see if I can get one from him and he might - Zaremba: The tradeoffs that they make in deciding what works and what doesn't and - f~,: - Canning: Yes. I think you would be surprised how very costly it is to actually do a ,, '' development (inaudible--------------------) walk in the door every day. I used to work in a `{`~~ planning consulting office where you had to scrap for every 30,000 dollar or every 60,000 dollar (inaudible) they just walk in the door and plop this stuff down on your desk because that's the cheapest thing they do is hire the planner. It's nothing compared to everything else they do. It's rather remarkable. ,~ ~'''~- 1 ..~`~'.1 _._.~ ~•it4 ~' y4r~i'`Trr ~~'4'?. w/~+~d t ~ ~c ~M~;~~.~_,p `j q~1 .~~:~ :>,~~'sVV.eAr. ~K S?C~`5, .a~.~:•,kY ~:•a:y~~„ "p~` '..~*3~',~~'"i1.+;~~{ .~'~x,'3.~"j.n`ih.~f:.',~94 ~•~: }{` e~ f.... T~ i ~„~, ~]R ~ 'i: ~~. + `¢e1,'.~, f. p.•;: t~if'±s..~:'f. s~r'.~i.'~!.~%`. tom," r ~ ,~,.' ':'r,.~, ~,• 111 i ~.~ . ~~ "~^ ty,. ~.. . '~':` . ~ ''~. ~a.'~'~'w~' x ...`?~,.. 6„r'..1^ ::~:', P. ._ I ~ ''... ~ S `... ~ ~~ : _. :ii ~sRikY3 . ;r T ~: ~- ~ ~ - ~ 1 1, a. ~ 4 7Y ~ ~_ ~` t } y_, .. "`' ' .~ ~~ ~ , - 1 ' H s ''u. d 1; f ~ 1 < < ~ ~~ '~' 4 l_ dd,, ,4 s i ~L„ `: ~~~ a , k t:: ~ ~_ ~: ~. ~ ~. 8 ,~~ , . ~~;+~ ~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special eeting ~;,~ November 29, 2005 ~- ~, ~ Page 25 of 52 x:~- - ~t ~' ~' `~` Nary: (inaudible--------------------) my perspective from sitting up there is that what is your ' '~~ margin you need to make your (inaudible) and as you see very, very well off developers in front of you their ability to develop and make that margin that they feel the most "` comfort level with is different than a very small, three lots, four lots, four acres developer -A„"F that we see many of those folk that their margin of error is pretty small. They don't have fi` _ a lot of room to ride out this. They can't wait five years for this to get developed. They ~: make a very educated guess on what their market is or what they -you know one of the ~'~ f , t things you folks see many times what they like to build. I mean their comfort level of ~, ;. ~ building versus what their market is and what they think they're trying to attract. You will = get a larger developer a Winston Moore Brighton Corp that can afford to take lots of ~ . , chances and give some properties and sell some that predevelopment price because .- ~~ they have a huge cash flow that they can afford that versus a very small developer that -~ ` that's how their making their living. That's how they're going to be able to pay their own ~__ ~ mortgage this year is they need to be able to make sure they can tum these properties r~`';`' over within six, eight or ten months. All that predevelopment cost like Anna was saying follow the infrastructure the roadways, and the sidewalks and gutters and streetlights -; and all those things. Those are the folks that are you know I mean not to (inaudible) but ~ :;: E ;; they are the ones going to make sure they find their mailboxes at Lowe's because ;~ they're going to go save a few bucks on those things versus somebody else who just ~" ~:._,. doesn't care about loads of detail. (Inaudible--------------------). :, `~ ~'~, Zaremba: (Inaudible) advise the mailbox manufacturer - ~~ - Nary: And those are the things that you know as we get larger and that's the kind of conversation that occasionally I have with the Mayor and the Council is as we as the ~ city grows and we see -you see a lot more now than we did five years ago of either ~K > infill or redevelopment types of properties smaller ones that are -that you don't see the ~~.~ large development companies doing. They are really small but it's one guy who's doing ~3~: .. three lots here and he's got to do five lots next year and those kinds of things that you'll see much more of that. Those are trickier because they're trying to fit what they know ~r ~', how to do or what the would like to do or what the can afford to do into that little Y Y piece. It has to fit that's where a peg is in that hole. Those ones are much more ~:~_~: challenging. Those are the ones that are going to be a lot harder for all of you to sort of ~~' - wrestle with because you have neighbors who thought that was a park or thought that `- `' ` was something else until someone told them (inaudible) something different. Those are r; _~ r: ~.;..a~ the ones that you folks will have to wrestle with and you'll see that much more. °;;;;~ Newton-Huckabay: That's already started I think. Canning: Yes we had -Craig and I had a guy in today that you know we had to tell him you have to do this much we know. You may have to do this and he just said no I'm not going to take that risk (inaudible--------------------) you can't tell me I don't have to do that _~:>n. if I don't have to rebuild that road. If I'm going to be stuck with any of that I'm not even ~" going to take the chance. He said (inaudible--------------------) 10,000 dollars to take that chance to get it up to Council. I think it's 10,000 dollars (inaudible--------------------) he t, ,~ ~. a :; ~ ~% r r " - ~ s ~' s ~ l N d v rr~.. - t - - .r . - hf '~~ ~ IR'ii~l ~ -_ ~: a, ~ ~ ~ '' f ti a~ . ~ ~' „e ~ '~~~ 4 _ _ ~ ~ ~ n t~ ` Si4 a~ ,*? y~ ,~. ~ ~6 ': L '~7 S:'' ~ E '+YN `~'~~ ~v `{ ~. J.. AA Yr rl a ~~ ;i fa, ~:'c{' "t 4 0 ~ ~ ~ c ~~.-` ~ ryhe~ ~fY F ~~ ..- ~ ~ i x~~~fif ~ `~, j A ~% : +~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special NIC~eting November 29, 2005 Page 26 of 52 ,- just said (inaudible) I'll go to Boise. We think we were being nicer than them but that's K what we were all thinking. .'~` Nary: From a staff level and from your folk's level I think that's going to be the challenge the more you see. As we grow on that map and suddenly that map has a lot less white two years from now or three years from now you're developing internally ~. ' ~ you're not going to see Brighton Corp or (inaudible--------------------). They're not quite as cash rich to be able to do that and so those are the ones that are much more ~'~`~ challenging because they can't. (Inaudible) you know when you deal with some of those larger ones (inaudible--------------------) road over here and a house over there or you know a little bit more setback. To those folks a few thousand here, 10,000 here '~ _ that's not that a big of a deal (inaudible--------------------) to make five million dollars is not a big deal. (Inaudible--------------------) you can't afford to spend another four thousand = dollars that might mean it's too big of a portion of your profit that you're going to make. "` Moe: Well they're going to (inaudible) prior to even coming in and talking to P&Z staff or f"~'' anybody to get that project going. They're already going to know what they can spend and can't spend on what they're doing. {~, ''` Canning: Yes some of them it's scary. ;- '~~ Moe: We deal with those all the time on commercial projects right now. f (.: a x~,;;' Canning: Some of them know. Some of them don't have a (inaudible). I know some of them walk in the door and start showing me this and. I'm like so have you penciled this r ~~ 5. out yet? (Inaudible--------------------) Zaremba: (Inaudible) for 20 years and they see other developments so they say let's develop it. ,~ Nary: We drew it on the back of this paper. Canning: So we try to get them hooked up with somebody who can help them as fast ';: as we can. Zaremba: Well it would be interesting at least for me to have a better understanding of ~, -~ what they're telling us. Canning: Yes maybe I can even get - Zaremba: When they say something is or isn't economically feasible. Canning: I'll see if I can even get Joe to explain (inaudible). '° ' = Rohm: One of our (inaudible--------------------). ~.~; ~i, y ~~ -~~Y~ ;,~ :.> N T t l t ~. ~ i ,. c.- ~T F ~ ~,~ 'L. ~~ r,` ' i S ~~ ; , . a '.S .4 Y;~ ~ ~-r ~' S L "54~.~~~' ~~4N` i . IN lr~ 4~ i -. ~ t ~~~r. 1t!~, < d .ti f _ ,.F. 1 .3 ~.r . Y: ~~ g' ~Y ~a ~ 7aN~. ., } ~ ;~'r S kA T Y x ~ ~ «~ _ ~ : ..~ r . , s.. , ~: ~ _, k ~s s;.' [: Y .x r =s ~ ~ ~ ! e ~ ~ ~~ ?.• ~~~~"~lv9 ~}~~' t~~ - ~'~ 'PT~~~ t! hti~. '. "7 ~ r ~ ~ ~' 1ny ~ F~ ~ ,1 y ~Jl ~ly ~", ~F~\ ~, ` •~ ~ N R ~ .;: ~, Meridian Planning & Zoning Special lel~eting ""' ~' November 29, 2005 ~~- Page 27 of 52 ~`; "'"~ Cannin Yes I mi ht be able to et him to come to let's sa Garden Cit Inaudible---- ~~ 9~ g 9 Y Y• ( rte.. Newton-Huckabay: Number 12. w~ ~~ ; =~_s Zaremba: Just someday if we have another workshop I would like to add that to it. ~_.. `=°` Rohm: Before we leave this area on annexation there are parcels that are adjacent to k ~ ~ other parcels that aren't within the city. Is there any movement to bring those enclaves into the city? Canning: The direction we've been given is that one the city won't force annex anyone ~`=~ in general. If they are over five acres they can't force annex them. If they are under five v~: ~.;.:..-~ I acres they generally will not do it except under one situation. If it is a whole subdivision ~~~ where one of the units the septic system starts to fail and so that person has to go onto ~ city sewer they are saying now - we haven't done this yet but they are saying now ' : ~ (inaudible--------------------). What they don't want is what happened in Carol where you get one here, one there and one there. They did that on that one because the city -:~:~' needed to get the trunk line through so they -I've been told that never will that happen ' '~ again and that if one comes in then the whole subdivision comes in. It will be ~~,. ;; ~.~~, t,.v;~,1 interesting. Newton-Huckabay: Which one is that? Nary: Part of the reason -Carol Sub is the one that goes from Ustick -Leslie goes ,i from Ustick to Eagle and it's that small portion basically the southwest section of here. ~~ Newton-Huckabay: Oh okay. Hawkins-Clark: It actually touches both Ustick and Eagle. '. Nary: But far one of the worst circumstances that happened from that is -besides services is the trash service. It is absolutely insane to the trash company to know. All they actually have to live on is who has a green can and who has a blue can in front of ~'.' the house because there is no way for them to tell which is a county house and which is a city house. F?'-:,Y• Rohm: Well I - Zaremba: Police and fire and everybody else has to - ~~ Nary: Well you see most of those don't get as impacted from a service standpoint ~~ ;':. because of cooperative - I mean you have a fire district so you always have fire service and police have cooperative agreements. They sort it out later. If you call 911 the V'~k` nearest cop shows up and they'll sort it out later who might have to write the report, ~' where it goes and all that. The trash is the one that's a hassle. ~_:= ~ ~_ ~~~~~.y' ~ ,~ ~: i ~ w t x a"~~ Y ~ ~ r 1. 2 .~( L~ ~ ~ ` ~ l 4,.:.:. ~ - , i~ ~ ~~ x` ~ S t ~:cY i. 1. . ,4^ ~4n ~C _ ~ '~ ~~5, ~ ~r sf' ~ Kk ~a~ i d 7r~ ~ ~.~ ~ ~' ~ ,~ ~ } '!i ~ r y. k ~ ` X.1 tyM1 hr. ~ ~ ' '• r ~~~} `1a.`! z ~,< ~ Tj' ,i: ~, 4. _ '~ hc;. 5 !.F '7ktN (. ~ R ~ 5_ ~. ~s wk Y s ~~ ~~ ~ . { ,~ y ~ i ~'~.r< '~ c a i .ri '" ~ ~'~` , ~; ~f ,' --i ;,~: .;. F,~ ~, ~ 4 &~~, S ;~: ~, ~:> _'.Y ,J. { :lei :~"a ~1 Meridian Planning & Zoning Special lC~eting November 29, 2005 Page 28 of 52 Rohm: The city services of sewer and water (inaudible) added to a lot for it to be annexed into the city though. I mean it has to be available as in let's just take a parcel of land that's requesting annexation, the City of Meridian does not pay for the cities - or the water and the sewage in that development it is paid for by the developer and donated or dedicated to the city. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if there's an out parcel that is surrounded by city it could be annexed into the city and let them maintain their own city or their own water and septic system and when they want to quote unquote develop and attach to the city sewer system at their expense let them do so but in the meantime they are receiving all city services other than sewer and water and aren't really paying for any of that don't you think? Canning: If they are annexed they're paying for it. Rohm: But if they're not annexed they are getting those services without paying for them. Canning: Exactly. That's the issue Boise City has with all their stuff. The only time that I know of that the city has annexed without the requirement that the property -well ,;, I actually that wasn't septic was it that was just animals. That was Simunich. We told Simunich he could annex and keep his animals but there was no house on it so there was no septic system. (Inaudible--------------------) well Leisure Lane. We have a bunch of houses on Leisure Lane that were annexed at some point that are all on septic. They are the only ones that I know of. Rohm: Well Ijust - fir: _ ` Zaremba: Well we have an advantage Central District Health -anybody who wants to ~;~ do a septic system or repair an existing septic system has to get a license or something a~ through Central District Health. What happens with these enclaves is someday their septic system is going to fail and they will go to Central District Health and Central ' ` District Health says is there sewer within 300 yards of your property. If the answer is P~ ~, ~~ - yes you cannot redo your septic system you must hook up to the city and the city says ` ~ to do that you have to annex. At some point, when their septic system - we almost ~~~ don't have to force The Enclaves because they are going to come to us someday. Canning: Right. ~;~~. ly Nary: And that has been the philosophy to this point. ~x ~'~~ Canning: Yes now they may choose to go -there has been some discussion of let's p~pj~pp` - just go (inaudible---------------- ). 2 ~ Rohm: (Inaudible) city limit and anything inside this boundary is going to be in the city ~,,• limits. ~~' ~. - y A~ 1 i ~ t ~~ ,~ Y rW ., y = :?.~• : i.` ,.;.T,_ •,~~.:sr'.. ice; ~. - xt 1 - v c r~,. "a~~d S =(" ~. 3'.. 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"•~ . _.. ~. • ate. ,~ : - -. ~ , . ., r, ;~, ' -~'. . ~ ~ ,. ;~~ ~r - .r rrv.. .r t , ..~ ..~ , +'[i' `'~:~,:jm~1,'~'~.'• ~:~e~~~:,~6;~y.~`a~::~n.. ...3' I . i .. ;1. ^t~ ::+~t.-~."s`r','<t.~ ~~' ~;~,., ~ r.^ ,~~3. ~„~x t '' . ~:. P I ~ ~ _ ..{~wf 'fir'. ~€ .F;~ .`; wy`. .4 :aka,: 4 > > ~. < r, ~ ~. '-rGer'.' ~ 'i -t h4 ~ J ~ 3 1 -~! ~ z .r ' hr ion- ,4 '~` ~• t J `~ .'! .~~a J ~ ~.~,~i, ~.e~ i +' ~ d ~' ! ~ i 'hl;izc!`~.~{;sn ~:n i} ~ y~,e a :e:`',~w'~;~~. -''.s v~ ~ '';~: - }F.. r 'I:r ~ z:~~e •qr4 s~ rr •e,.~, ar.':X; •Y~;v:~T :c ~tis^r;?tts•~?:,~~-• `1 x C l .a : ttt R ~fa:`~;,; ::~r ;k ,> '. ... . } .~ y t~ r~ ]a( ` . t ?f e r x. + ~ ~ ' yiyi~~ I ~ .[K ~ '.. ti~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Meeting November 29, 2005 Page 29 of 52 _ Hawkins-Clark: And it's far more cleaner. A lot of people say that's the way to go. Canning: But there's -you can't do anything over five acres so we're not going to get X.. i all - Rohm: No but - Newton-Huckabay: Yes I think you're talking about like the one that subdivision that ;: came in that attached to Bridgetower that had that one long piece of property. The gentleman was here saying I don't want to be annexed into the city. Everything around ~, ;``'; him was and he was just out there by himself now. y Rohm: Actually not anything specific. I was in this same role in Payette and we went through the process of (inaudible) our city limits all the way around the entire city and anything inside that circle was annexed in a described fashion. We took this section of town and this section of town and then this and we brought everything into the city that was less than five acres. That was uote un uote receivin cit services even thou hit q q 9 Y g -< not necessarily was connected to city water or sewer. :~; `" '~ Canning: The downside of that on the larger properties is that we have no (inaudible) .- ~~ ,; ' anymore. (inaudible--------------------) what's allowed by that zoning so there is no more __ of this, "Geez, it sure would be nice if we could get a city park" or "Boy, it would be nice sw if you could put up that fence," because your neighbor is complaining. ` ' `~ . Rohm: In reality that's the reason I asked the question is there must be some ' :- ~- .:~; advantages to the city to wait based upon the (inaudible) and the stick that you ve gof ~=.~,,tiy~-.I available to you at such time that that annexation is requested. Nary: Because the answer to your question is legally could you do that absolutely? Legally there's not an issue. There's a process to do that you can do involuntary ~~~ '' annexation I hate to use the word forced annexation but involuntary annexation. You ~~' ~ can do all those things but you lose the advantage of them applying to you. You lose ~., :: , the ability -the only real stick that you have many times is the ability to annex them or A ~`! not. You have the ability to choose not to let them annex and they don't - and I guess ~~~~y'.'il we can move to question 12. What happens when you deny them? Well for many of those properties they are stuck because what they want to do can't fit into the county ~~;, ordinance of what can be done on the property. Like Anna said, they have to come and ~~ . "` ask first and on certain types of applications they have to come to the city. If they get ~~ ~: ~ denied they can develop under the counties rules or many of those what they want to do ~~~~'' doesn't fit in that. Or they need septic and they are within 300 feet they have to have ~` ~: sewer and water to do what they want to do. The county doesn't have any of those ~' '~~ ~~~•, things. They can't build a well they can't afford to build their own (inaudible) so they are ~~ -- kind of stuck. When you want to develop and the city says no because it doesn't fit what we want you don't want to cooperate, you don't want to be nice to your neighbors, ~ ~ you don't want to build a fence, you don't want to build a buffer, you don't want to do ' - ~ ~.. any of the things that would make your project more appealing to us than tough luck for ~~ ~~ ~ b~~' I ~: _ ~: '. ~, ~, . '., x' , t S . 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We don't have to annex you. If we just annexed them to clean up the boundaries fix.;-~: then we wouldn't have that ability as much. We would just be stuck with what are ~' ~~~: principal permitted use, what are conditional uses are we going to argue over one of °~'~''~ these things every time. Those are the ones in the last I guess four years that I'm aware of (inaudible) appeal to the district court over land use decisions where properties " '' ~ have been annexed that didn't have the plans in place that we -that are preferred. It didn't turn out like they thought when they brought it back the city said no we don't want -, .,..;`.. that. We've annexed you we've given you some rights that you have and now we have '~ °`~ chosen not to agree to what you want to build there and those are the ones that they go ~ :~ ~ to court for. That's kind of the carrot and the stick answer like you were saying. You ~w° ~~ could do it but it's just that maybe isn't in the cities best interest to do that. '"j ~ ~ Rohm: Thank you that's a great explanation. r: Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) that the state changed the legislation in 2000 or 2001 so ,~_:~ unlike when you were in Payette we can't do it for five acres or more they did change that after. ~, 3`~~ ~"`#~=' Canning: Mostly because of the people in Boise that organized it. ~~ . ~ Hood: Unless they are getting services already right? They are (inaudible----------------- ---). Nary: There is an interesting question and we've been looking at that internally k ; : because the statute is written poorly, shockingly that's written very clearly as to what we ~~ think it means. There is a portion in the statute that I think says what Craig just said that ~~;~-~' ~ it is implied consent once you have hooked to service that we can annex you as long as ~~ you're contiguous in the other (inaudible). The way it's written it's very unclear. There's p :~ a ! some other language in the same sentence that makes it appear that implied consent might be a little more than just service but it's not very clear. We're looking at that because of this very question and so we're at least trying to get a comfort level. You F'~ `'~ know Idaho doesn't have a long history of land use decisions because there just isn't -'' much of it statewide. Most of it is in other places and so we have to look at other states , R~_ , ~,~~ or other places in Idaho to get kind of a sense of comfort level. And the other one and ~~~ ' the reality is that all of you know is involuntary annexation is more of a political issue :fig - ~; - than a legal issue. You know how much of those people do you want to tick off to ''> annex into your city to cause the - I mean right now they can yell and scream all they ~.`~ - want but they can't vote (inaudible--------------------). Eventually they do but I think the other issue though becomes and I think that's something maybe you have brought up to Mike, is part of the issue becomes is these people are gaining the benefits of your cities ~; lifestyle, planning, services they provide, parks, jobs, trails, pathways, you know k- businesses, commercial developments they gain all the benefits to that and they don't pay for any of it. It really becomes an issue more politically and philosophically for the Council to decide at what point do we think you know their objection to it is not as valid ~~ ; as the benefits they seem to be getting and that the rest of (inaudible) paying for it. It's just at what point does that become enough. To this point the Council has made a ; f ~s ~~, N~ ~°,~` ~' ~s5=:~~_ _ . ... 'iJ~ Kra .. N~ w R yt ~ ~ ~~~ ~'~ r 7 ! k `.a:.. , , ~ tX ~... ,~ ., 4,,. ". ~ :.; f,r ~ ~ ~ ~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special NI'Eeting f f. November 29, 2005 3 Page 31 of 52 1 :=. .: decision to say you know what they're going to need it some time. We've got plenty of ,_;'; business as it is we can wait. Their septic will fail, they will want to redevelop, and it will happen, it's not going to be 20 years from now it's probably going to be three. It's not . y ~, .,.; that big of a deal. We have plenty to do (inaudible--------------------). I think because our ~' 3,~ growth has been so rapid that that particular choice hasn't been a problem. If we were t~ >. - a community that was dying for development there might be a different change in that ~ ~ _ policy decision. The next question was is what's the recourse of the property owner that r; disagrees with a Comprehensive Plan Amendment once approved by the City Council? {~ " You know not a whole heck of a lot. Realistically, you know we had a lot of people in ' Y 2002 that didn't necessarily agree with every color and block that went on that map. A - : lot of them said this is my house what are you doing making it what I don't want it to be. _ `= It's a map, it's a goal and it's a guideline. As many of you have had to say I'm sure to `~ ~y'~`~`' people you can live in your farm forever we don't care. If you choose to do differently ~- r ~' . _ that's what we want. We would like that instead. That makes sense in the bigger ~ ~, picture of everything to us. If you disagree with you it you don't have -that's what the ,: public hearing process is for. That's what the Council ultimately makes the decisions based on. Is there an appeal? I'm trying to think of individual - I can't think of cases of ~> . t° '<'~~ individual property owners appealing a Comprehensive Plan - ~, x I Newton-Huckaba :What about a rou of ro ert - sa for exam le, like we did there at Eagle and Victory. We recommended approval to mixed use community. All the ~,~. ~~ ~" ~, neighbors around it were enraged because it should have been R-4. Do they have any recourse because they -the city changed the Comprehensive Plan? z, ~~~. Canning: And where that's a specific request for a Comp Plan Amendment is more `-`fl appealable than (inaudible)? ~t ~ '~~:t`I Nary: (Inaudible) when basically someone wants to come and amend the Comp Plan to ~. - :, .. allow their development to occur. ~~~ ,: ' ~' ' Canning: Yes. Nary: To allow their type of development. I guess most of the case flow that I'm familiar ~~ ~; with the courts have given great difference to the cities to decide what their long term `~ ~~ : land uses are. One of the things and that's probably a little bit of the disconnect ' ~~~` ~ sometimes with the people in the room when you folks are discussion comprehensive - - land use map (inaudible) is all you did was give somebody the ability to ask. Right now, '` ^ I without that change they can't even ask for that. It doesn't fit therefore; it doesn't get '` passed to Anna's desk. All you did if the amendment goes through is let you ask. It still has to fit it still has to be compatible with the neighbors. It still has to fit in the big I '~~ ;: '' scheme of thin s. It's 'ust another use that ma be considered amon man Most of 9 J Y J Y _ ~; the cases that I can think of that deal Comprehensive Plan's usually deal with the ~ ~' process. How did they make those decisions and what did they base it on. Is it based ~~ on -they look at you know concepts of did we give opportunity to be heard? Was ,._ there deference to the whole land map as a whole did we -was there findings and x~`- testimony that we tried to evaluate the differences between these uses and buffers and I ~:~ ..;YI i ` ' 4~ ` 3 ~ 3 ,i. Y ~ x- r .: c ~ ! ` e. ~. fi Aa 'ari • w ~ ;S . y r ~{ Vi , , ,ri~ ; % ,.~r ~';u ,~ ! s,ur~,r~, ,~. I' ~.4 ~ • ..~ t ,. y. 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'':>'.G" ~'i''';z< "~x:..~i~~`r:,.•i, ti...''3.=F~• =:t`.x.6G. F >y t. ., n. , ; ~ 1 ;ie, l•e '.v'y.; ^ ; a, R'•"x ^~ ~ ' ' ~ I• ~ 'w ` ~ y ~j ,J "~k ., Y,q t ~ .4 >~ . ~ ~ 'rY~{ A"~. x F ~ e - 1 ~ E-.~" y„ t - . , ,~ r".. ~ ' ~ V - ~ ~ ' ~. r d. vH .: •:.~ 3 i ~ 1. ~ •C ^G L 1' f.~~ '~'1• rF ~` Ssy.rJf j.• 1 ..( N y E,~' l~ s ~ ~ . , r~ J . . {4y1':"~'k:.'~'Ry~*~sy"~"`~:gr.:hy#;,:X ~ I >R !S' ^i,••: "~ ~ fi ~' . • 'r:' : ~ k 3 ' h m ` ~ y . f{'~ q ?S"'9Y ,Y Y ~L 4 ~.1: 7~.'a `.'A i~~ ~ 1 a' - ` ' ' ., • ,, 3 v . ,, ~~ ._ Y.~: ~ _ ~, ` t _r Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Nf~eting November 29, 2005 "'> Page 32 of 52 y`' - all those types of things? That's all the court is looking at because they're not - I guess -° ' I'm not familiar with in Idaho of a case where the court said you know they decided to `' allow multifamily housing in an area that previously was commercial and we just think ~,. ~;. _- that's just wrong and they can't have that there. They give deference to the city to `~ decide how they would like to grow and where do we like to be. -,~- Newton-Huckabay: Then there's a misconception by the public that the Comprehensive ~ ~'.^ Plan is some kind of binding promise in essence. Nary: It is and it isn't. f ' Newton-Huckabay: Do you guys see that when people come it's almost that you can't ~ "~''I do that it's illegal I mean they don't come to the point of saying that but is understanding what people -for example when the overlay was proposed Imean - ~ .~' Hawkins-Clark: The Highway 16? ~. . t Newton-Huckabay: Yes. The implications that people perceive that to have I didn't ~'~ really understand. That's where a lot of this strives from is well it's -because in my ~' ~ ."> mind and it was the Comprehensive Plan it's not a legal document it's not an ordinance ;~xnYr it's not a - ~. , .. .-~ ` Canning: And it's some of those people who are out of state investors from California ~k ~j ! where the state has mandated that the Comprehensive Plan and the zoning ordinance have to (inaudible------------------------------------------) by heart but what we've done - ` ~~ ` :~, Nary: I don't do that. ~'~ ~', ~'~!~~`~ Canning: What we've done in the UDC is to put that every opportunity that we could in finding that it's consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. What that has helped to do is to get that (inaudible) then it would have on its own. You would have to make that ~~ (inaudible--------------------) findings and I don't know how we're doing that. r Nary: (Inaudible) law to me because it's required but it's not the law. It's not -you ~r + ~ aren't bound by that. You choose to deviate from that then that usually gives you some ~ r~! leeway and some latitude and all that. I guess around this table and Brad probably only ~'f~~`''~~` remembers but I don't know how many people in a few years ago before the little orange square for the Wastewater treatment plant came about there used to be an ~ ~~ asterisk there for a park. They wanted to build a transfer station for the SSC trash people and a bus barn there. Every single person walked up there said there is an ., ., asterisk there its su f r u to do an hin else it s osed to be a ark. Its ille al 0 0 pp Y Yt 9 p 9 supposed to be a park. I don't know how many times it was said this is just a guide. It's just an idea of what we would like. It doesn't have to be exactly on that piece of ground °~~ ~ ~.:-'. but you're right it's just a disconnect that people get. They don't understand - a z.~ ~~ ,; -,~: ~ ~f~i'~ ~ ,, Ft"~^ ~' c b~k ~Ii~., , .. ~: fir- s t~~ 6 . ~ tS'.~. /5'i~a},~..z'.~~Y~.~"p^'.G`~.~:'~++~t«~o, i~r~. [. }' !F'.~ '1 ~, k° ~ 11 + ~ 4' d ~ ~ ,,~ y;'+'•`ri~' ~, T,'~ , G ~ fi~_ . . • ' ; ,. -~ ; Y ~ k V ' ~ ~~ 4 % s, , ~ Y,•if :4'y'i'a(^ .+'\". k `.~k.cj;E~°i;'F:a~'~.+'js & r S ~ G' r a r ~ ,'} b ~ r f,1'~''!4. YRY.'<K k ~, f ~ .It t~•1 0,r fi.4 r.+~ 3~+yM"; ~ ~' ,. Ln6'~Y. t 4,,.,,$.. . a ~ r 'F ..f;' , + ~ ' ~ , •..fi''O. '.YF. J '.S: .. ~~~~ *n5~ t ~' t~ s ~ ~.b~i`~~~:" I ~ ' "'1 4 .~4 '~1:"kf i°s. n'.}Y= ~ u]., i~.~~:^~ . .n. ~ p ~a~-y ,1 ~+5 ,per { :6 ~ ~v;,. p ':i+x., ~ ~ ~ L ~ 44E,ry,ry ~y . { ,,E. F ...-+ rpp~~ ~F rr '~~± ±r ' s1. ~ ~.•L': e .ri~ .'~w`d;.~°~ i15~':{~@?.'•~w t ~ f~5 i~(~ Z~ I _ ~! Y''} M:. r f~~ s ~ 1^ r" ~"a ' i vt (~ 1 . ,~ y,: ~ ~ F A ~: t ' ' ' ' i , ' . ?7 ik , y S's ~, - ~d or "x `~ i `~ ~~ ., ''` :` 3`~ ~ y. .f .'m +~ ~!• !' ~ ~ ' r ± ,, ;':8 r . ti ~ . ' ~ .':~'.ee: .3 F :d ~ r i f7 rTui),4 ' y~: i'::~ ~~~.~°xe~~Ea~ °tSxr', '4[~•.,.,.~~^; r ' A P . .~.s ,,~..c ~ ~ ,,f ~>.r :: :3 +, i ~ l '~a''~'„~ ~+ x. ~ a,p ^ '~~~? ~C: P +t ,,.,r' ~ r # ~z~,~ ~r<~ d .~ .~~~.v ~• .,:a`h: knr d; :. ':e+r.::5s . ~ . !.}.~i'~;.r~., ' { ~,. { ^ ". s'$5.":~k'y~ 'j~~xo'v~,~2'.y3:.1 .i;•~',' ~ .~ d. s ; + S ~ r~i~ :',x'' `a~. e. '7. :4 ~"~' ~ ~ v. > .~ ~yj, +$xn.y~,g:-i.i~^'rrryY+~7 ;~:y?:~.,'F i ~ ~1 ~ 3.. ,": ~ 1 . ... .~-:..fiiil•=z ,.t Meridian Plannin & Zoning SpeciallGfeeting ~M=~ " g November 29, 2005 ~' ~' Page 33 of 52 Newton-Huckabay: Because what I want to be able to say to a member of the public is } ~ to me you're saying it's like a goal statement. When we set down and wrote these goals one, we thought we were going to develop a little bit slower than we are and two some 3, ,, priorities have changed so we need to change that piece of our goal because that goal '~ isn't really relevant there anymore. Because that gets really frustrating because people really act like you're doing something illegal but it's - ~,~ : ~.~ Zaremba: And I think one of the other fears and I think somebody even expressed it one time. I forget exactly what the project was but it might have been along Chinden an ~`~~ area that is farmland and they thought was going to be farmland for the next 20 years designated on the Comprehensive Plan as a neighborhood center or something °,..~,1 commercial. Their fear is the County Assessor is going to take that and say how this is prime commercial property here is your tax. ~, . ~.~ "`~=_~~'`, Canning: Well it's interesting. It apparently is very real here because we found out that those folks on the South Eagle but just north of Victory there that Comp Plan Amendment. The Count Assessors had been tellin them the were oin to start 9 9 Y Y 9 ~' assessing them at a commercial rate since they were on Eagle. Brad called over and .=` i said hey wait a minute we have this shown as residential on our Comprehensive Plan ;'~ ~ why are you assessing them at commercial. Well because it's Eagle Road. I just ~k ~~ thought that was abominable. They shouldn't have to go defend the status of their ~~ ~, property as residential when it's shown that way on our Comprehensive Plan. Zaremba: And the current use is residential. Canning: And the current use is residential. I just thought that that was (inaudible). ~;~`'~ Newton-Huckabay: Now that would be a legal issue that they would have. 5~,:.~ Canning: And I thought that well those folks are asking for a change in that so we won't c"" push it but otherwise I would have asked Council to bring it up with the County Commissioners because that just shouldn't be happening (inaudible--------------------). '~.` Nary: (Inaudible------------------) that's a bigger question and that's a question that I think you as the commission always have to I guess keep (inaudible) most of the people in your audience when there's over 10 people here and none of them are developers or engineers or planners of those folks and there are more than 10. (Inaudible) nine of ~±~ ~~~ them don't know what you're talking about most of the time. They don't understand -,:. ~' (inaudible--------------------) ordinances and how those interplay. They just don't. They know it's part of their backyard and they don't like it. So all you can do from a commission standpoint is try to educate, educate and educate in time of this is what we're talking about, this is what our issues are and this is what we have to address. This is the only way you can address that. Is it going to get through? Yes half of them it probably will. Many times, you are able to focus their attention to say folks you have `4° ~ lots of issues out here but really these are three rural (inaudible) are concerned with so '~'~` could you at least tell us what you think about these things. That helps educate them as . f :'~ ~' - } ,~ ,. ~~, F ,y NS <~~ ~~ '~ . .~ x~ ~T3~~~~ ti ~ ~ ~' . ~ ~f '; 7'~:~ 1. ,.,h,u - r Y - ~.~f ~.Ai J .4' fix.: ~. i .'a, ~ ,,,`p4:~ "J .r .i' f :,~v}~S .may };.~.~N;.~Y.F°f'.4".:'wP:: S~ k.. )~1 ~?h~~,... ±~ R. :rY"~L ~ .t ~A 5~;'~'b.~: #~~'vr±~l a. . . .nN~,'i(.~. 1Y~ ~ 1' ~ t Y ~~ ~ 3- £l f ~~ ~~ ' r fp.. '<-. S ~l ~ 9 g F , 4 a4~ a~ ~. F; ~:. ~ ~ - Y ~~-'- - t ~ - ~ ~ i ~ i f ~... ~I~. 4 e i S i l Nl ~ ti Pl i & Z M ridi ng pec a c e ng ann ng on e an '•> November 29, 2005 ~. , . ,. ~: ' „ Page 34 of 52 ~~- to what you are trying to address because they just don't. There's no way cheap to do =:", it. The mayor shared a letter with me yesterday. She received an anonymous letter in "' the mail from a Meridian resident, no return address, no signature that is complaining about the used cars next to McDevitt Park on Eagle Road and said why are my taxes " - paying for a used car lot. Well his taxes aren't paying for that because that's not in the ' t:- ~ s not ours. City of Meridian. It's not our car lot. We can't enforce against that. That s That person has no idea that McDevitt Park isn't in the city it's in the City of Boise. ~ .. There's not much we can do to educate that individual but that tells you every day ~ know Planning gets it we get it somebody calls, somebody writes us somebody sends ~~~n.~.>, us an email about something has absolutely nothing to do with the city. Yet they think ' ~ ~ re the city we must. I think all you can do is try to educate folks all the time about we *~,. `" this is what we're doing folks, this is what it's about, this is what the issues are. That's the best you can do because you're not going to get through to all of them anyway. rt ~ Newton-Huckabay: You said nine out of 10 people in the audience. I'm thinking well "" ~ ~ four out of five commissioners don't know what's going on either. That's why I was ,~ ~~;' laughing. ,:~ Inaudible discussion '1 ( ) ~, Nary: Give yourself more credit. }~, Canning: I guess 14 is mine I forgot to read. You know the Mayor has asked me for a a - monthly report and it's on my to do list. If I could just get my (inaudible) then I would ..~~~ ;~~~~~~~ have some time to get these things done. (Inaudible discussion) Zaremba: You remember we used to get a monthly statement of building permits and .: stuff like that. "'` Borup: You don't get that anymore? ~~,"x, Zaremba: I'm trying to remember when the last time I've seen them. I haven't seen one -:.;.; for - Cole: Actually if you get on the Meridian website it's an updated draft now of building permits. Nary: So the answer is go find it yourself. ~:: ~:~.~ Rohm: Tell him you'll email it to them. Newton-Huckabay: I don't think the Public Works folks get on the record enough so why don't you give that report every month. ,. 74 ,a-~ra~ ~ r "~.. ~ c ~ ` t, P~ i k k , ~ ~ ~'y ~~ ~~i~ ~~~ f ~-~t. ~. '9~y ~ ... ~ ~ _fi is 11 sf T N ~ ` j'- 1 } ~ S ' ~ ` +~ 7 R~ ~ a . ~} 9~~~4'.FG ~ r.; 'f 7 ~ `~ ~'~' "!~' t ~ _ C ^i ~ ~ x, r c 4.~ ~ i ~ Lka ~ w F ~~,kr3 i-~ ~ ~° 1 ~ ~ -~~ - ~' .j-,. ov &, " 1 -" ~ ~' }" ~ t O t~ i}} - r....~~~. 1 r' ~ S fW 4 C. t ~+,~ly y K- ~ Y ~F ' ~ ~ ~ ~ n ~ ~~t~ . j c its. r~ r S c ~;P~t its .. °~,'1~~.~~, R~ ]: j C+` ., f M ~ C~'. ~' ~ ~, ~r~i~ sa • ,.,, + L r d { - 1 11 ~ ~ F ~ ~ "~~ ` z~~ s & Zoning Special ng Meridian Plannin g November 29, 2005 .; Page 35 of 52 Zaremba: That's better than printing it on paper. ''; j" Canning: I'll try to do something that talks about the things you don't see like Final Plats -, : which you don't see anything of and Council sees those but (inaudible) and -some of F ~ _ the other stuff I don't' think you really care about but maybe you do. Like temporary „ , -• ~ . uses or accessory uses (inaudible). k Newton-Huckabay: I'm more at thinking about like for example I don't know what happens to you guys all the time but this happens to me is somebody will come sauntering up to my cubicle during the day and put their arm on and so, what are they zj' building on such and such. I get the deer in the headlights look. Igo you're one of the _~ four commissioners without a clue kind of thing. It happens a lot. 1`: 3 }~.! - Canning: I'll try to get you project name, address where it is. ~" Zaremba: I don't know if there's a way to track it or even to quantify it. I'm thinking ~_ pipeline there's a lag time between things being approved and then actually being dug _ into the ground. I mean we can see something is being built and we can see the ~ applications in front of them but I lose track of what that gap is. I mean we have °- something like what 5,000 buildings approved that haven't started broken ground yet or ~.u.;~ something like that. p °~ Newton-Huckabay: And you don't remember. Zaremba: I'm just wondering if anybody else would be curious to have kind of a running t'= ~ estimate of what's already been approved that we can't see. ,r. . ~~,_; '~`~''` Canning: Mike keeps track of that. At least down (inaudible--------------------). ~~~ ~~ ,,,;. Zaremba: Sometime after city council approval. ~, ~'' Moe: I think he's going to say we go online and - ~'` ~, Cole: No sir. I mean that would be easy enough to track some numbers yes. ~'< (Inaudible) Final Plats or building lots approved by Council building permits. ;~: r , -> Zaremba: City Council has approved the Final Plat but a building permit has not been ~.'_~>.. pulled yet? ~. Cole: Yes I could definitely put a spreadsheet together that would breakdown _ something like that. ~:;.. - Hawkins-Clark: Mindy used to actually do that all the time. I think she stopped but she ~~ has a boiler plate for it I know that. Then the last two years Craig has produced the - it shows all the number of preliminary plat lots approved right and broke it down to residential and commercial. 'Y=:;:; a",,J, ~e~~~PKS•' i. Y:'jrr.:q ~ • i !r ~ ~. F :'t .. YAK"#.t :1~'~.i J y F, ~ ~. i , : ~~ .J, y. , r, ' I tt ~, . ~ t . . ' ~ .. a~`P. :,,Y .. ~ . ` irFr' ' :i`.:,,?.. V.fi.. ~"+3 R]R'Y -..Y'. wd' 0. ...,.'. ~'. i :.' 1: ~.. . ~ I..' f .c .. ~ ~'!! . y • ~ ~ ~. y.r; ^fi:Sl:se.i~":'[.^'aY ~f ~i _ •' 1~..; 4~'. .~. J% '~'y- t E ' f y .a ~ ~- •' .,~ ' ~ ~ i~.• i4lji`~ ,..k'a '.cg n53:fi.M:'.2:`+~ .. Et:S f r,~~. u y,;` ~ { .~, ;~•i:>a" r ~9 .''~. ?.R .^y :y~~k?y 1YfLilfi,.~$ W f .. p;'bb <~~~`? .~ '~i d ~ , ' „ ' •~ ~rs",j ~7:~~ ,'~„s•~~'~"W NI { Rq ~ ...¢! .+.'- ~ ~ ~ ~ p o V ~ ~~~ ~ - ~ y.,,, `i` r .`k p w ? } < 1 I - 1 ~ ! F~. ~x~;.: .r vr, i I '!~, t"i• ~.> ` # ..xr'c't~! '+XE; ;i 7,.. x6•. ~ ~ . 'i .,, '-~ l4~ .. ~~. a Yom-. ." .! ' .. X I t . ., a ,._~`{ r~€ -,.> . . ' ' • ~ i f~ ~' •5`f ~~'i, :Y•. .~~ ~ ,~, <<., ..PI ,J •.I y Y' y ~~§,y~ d ~ . x P .. . d : x: ~ 3 '~ I ~. Ffw~k.~s,j w£~.~^, ,. ".fti ! ~i^~~Iv -~:. ~6•,~ ~; e 4~y ~ § S I .h9 } ~ "< ~~ < 7.5 '' 'x t~;.~{..~, .~. $. ~1 +~, ~~. €j ly. ~w .+i: ~,~.?~: ~ t yy "S^y..^'?.•%.}.,~y.'-rye i~ ,~ :~',~' ?`F~ ~ £ A$ I • 'i. ":1: ' ~ ^..,ix,~.'.'~,~' ,.y..: ?'r2.:x.:t' t, I { ~ s. diJt. ,A, . . ~ 1 ' j % °` F ° '~ , t~ ; #15, ;^. : -`• . x~*~%'`~ 1 7 3 • 4r~~F, i : fis„~:..y.~i.\w~ F: ~;!l;f ~. i A G.. j F ,J ,~ y,~4.tfSti{N ~.'~'4ki~` '~:~4 j ., • ~ °Y- : .4 G ... - ., ..... .i Y ~ ; ~ ..: ,,.~. _ -- , ~ .i t. -t !`~R ~ ~ g~'%~u ;.t';.°.~,`~.R ~'~ ~ Y ~ ;t" ; ' YY ; ~ ? ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~w ;b~ 3 a *`; ter. ~ ~. ~ ,. -t~,, . ~5~,, 'r. i~ ,a~. apt .. f x ~ f•~'.~ a;:ss' ~ ` .~xi;•.. Sr;:~~„~ ;` ,..r ; , m ,~~. y ~,'5~~.7 ~ S: R:Y ,ith,.r.2.v>~:,'~.W`~F' , i~k:^` xt.r.{ i: ~.: , , T 7 .{~ ./ •~ "~i .r, . , v ..~; .. ~t :~'1"~}=x;,h, •:,e.. #~~ ~t I: r . .E., rt. r .. t:.:.. I j. ~i .,~. _. x. ~ i~~ t ~ -' , s~ . Meridian Planning & Zoning Special M~'ting ti.., ,. 3'`"' ~a` November 29, 2005 36 of 52 P -' _ F age '~~~ Canning: We'll be doing another one of those soon. ~.''" ~ Hawkins-Clark: Number of acres that are annexed. Hood: What it doesn't do is break it out I mean that's city wide, city approved projects ~~ ~~ so it wouldn't say you know Lochsa has eight of their 12 phases. -~-~. a Zaremba: I don't necessarily mean detail I just want the -what's the volume? What's ~;,... 1~ the concept? ~~ ~~ Canning: Yes. ~;~ : .' w~ , Newton-Huckabay: It also gives you a catalyst to ask a questions because you're going ~~ ,-'' oka I'm lookin at this I don't reall -what is this number real) mean kind of a thin . Y ~ Y Y ~ ~ ~ ~ It's just -because you do kind of sometimes feel like you're making a decision in a ~~'"`~=~~ vacuum at least I do. ~~,, .,. ~ '' Hawkins-Clark: But I'm wondering if that same report could be quarterly or something ~` ` like that or even semi-annual. ~f "~ ~_` Canning: Well yes I was going to structure my monthly report so that it becomes easier for Craig to do the annual (inaudible------------------) it is a really good fun project. I keep ~ ~ on wanting to do it. ~ ' ~ ,<., ;~,uy. Hood: Probably those commercial ones are the ones that are going to be more visible. ~~ The first phase of a final plat once that first phase kind of goes in the internal ones are ~~~ ~ really -most people don't know that they're on phase seven, eight or nine. It's the first :,,, ,.. initial breaking ground that (inaudible--------------------) now on Fairview. It seems like ~ there's always a new pad going in. w ~ ~ ~~ Canning: That's mostly what you'll get is the numbers on the commercial one and then ~` - ~ I can put -I'll give the specific projects on commercial stuff because I think that's more ~~~ ~ interesting (inaudible--------------------) or I can just give you -you know the commercial ~~< ~~ ;- -~~ numbers aren't that significant. It's probably (inaudible--------------------) applications this , ... `" month (inaudible--------------------). ~' Newton-Huckabay: I'm saying let's just start with something that we can red line and '=:~ say I don't really look at this information but I was curious if I could get this information. ~„-~~ I mean if we get a foundation that we can build on at least we would have somewhere to 4~ , start and be able to filter out relevant versus irrelevant. ~~ , `~ Canning: Okay I'll work on that. The mayor asked for one and Katy with the statesman ~ r - , has asked for one so it's creeping up my priority list. Her and Katy had the same idea. ;_ , ; ~ ;. Nary: Okay 16. Are you done with 13? ~;: ~~ ;m ~t ~~ ,~~. "° ~~~ tt °~ ~S ~.~ ~ a t `~ ? i ? fi f : ~ ~~. < ~ t ~ ~5 ~~~~~ ' - $ ~ -~F: - L ' ET ~ ~ ~"~: r ~ ~ ~~ S: ... f } R::1~ u 4 ~ ~ F p ~ 'r''t 1 ti h '~~ ~ „ F f rC ~S rf ~~Y L .r.v~ z ~T4 `' r k;~. ti '. !~ #~ ~ r M ? - 7 ~ J ~i~ . /~ ~ ~ ~ Y r c?~ - - i. ~ ~~* ~'~'l ;'s',~ 5 ~,.+t, ~ti ~~ ,~~ ti~f , ~ 4 YT C~ ~y R . ~ ~~ 3 _y S}`~ ;'h .~ f t,ti" T - ~ ~ rr .r„' rrcj ~ +S ' y. 4~ +`+4ri .r -N I ~. ~ 1 ~ r` ,°Sni + , ~Y .: 1 ~~~~ty ~~ ~ y } ~~ Z~ ~ t r~ «i~~,. ~ ~.r .~ ~ ' s 3 ,,1~k P 1 C! F ~~ }. ,, :": ,: Meridian Planning & Zoning Special lOreeting November 29, 2005 '~~ Page 37 of 52 ~_. '~; Canning: No I didn't talk about 15. First of all they do listen to 90 percent of your stuff probably. You should never feel like your (inaudible--------------------). I can try and start doing some sort of feedback (inaudible--------------------). Usually it's either a wholesale reversal of your decision. They very rarely just pick and choose portions of it you know :.'-~ take out a condition that you added or something like that (inaudible). If they are going ~~' to disagree with you they disagree with you completely generally. (Inaudible--------------- -----). ~~'~~ Nary: Try reading those minutes. k~ Canning: Yes. ~~; ~ ~: Newton-Huckabay: One example that I have there was out there by the sewer ~`'`' treatment plant one of the things that we had said was or the commission recommended was that you couldn't' have a C-G but you couldn't have a gas station or ;. something like that. ~:~ 9~' ' Zaremba: The development on the corner of Ten Mile and - y? ~'~:-`-:~ Moe: The city approved it and then it came back through. Zaremba: We said C-G was okay but we excluded gas station and a convenience store. Newton-Huckabay: The city reversed that and we never knew that so then we're talking out our ear in another hearing and it was one of you two says (inaudible). ~:, `'' `' Canning: We can, Craig can you (inaudible--------------------). Newton-Huckabay: So that's why I'm talking about - Zaremba: That's a good example because that was a major issue from the people that came to testify. We were pretty close to unanonomys in agreement as I recall. ~''~ ~ Canning: (inaudible--------------------) they wanted to be able to get gas is what x `- happened in all honesty. ~~ Newton-Huckabay: The thing of that is you know if the city is going to say we really have to have the ability to put some gas stations in north Meridian which I totally agree with and it isn't going to do us any good to - R *End of Side Three's ,~ _,. ,j a, , Newton-Huckabay: -- public testimony and say we're going to recommend no gas ~ ~~ station there and then half of those people aren't going to go to the City Council hearing. ~y 1 ~~~~`> ryM,~ t .ic -. - ~~' ~g~ '~ rk ~` ~~M1': Fem." ~ t f~'"iNi ... , i ~` ~ r~- ~~.. a.'o- -~c `.. ~n k,. ~~ y'', fi'.~~~t ~k AAAA ' •? 4 5 ).. t f .'. ~ ~ ~ ~}' 1 17 ~': 4 1 ~' Y N.'~ 4~,1 ', F ~~ ~ ~ '~i y ~~,.~'z,.~ 4 y:r ~ ~ 4, 3 .. TK ~ • ': t ~r+~3~#y~~µ r ~.,,q. x ' ~- • ~:. Meridian Planning 8x Zoning SpeciallGPeeting November 29, 2005 Page 38 of 52 ~`~ Canning: Sometimes there is no way of knowing. I mean sometimes - if there is a new issue I have no idea how Council is going to react to something. That's why people come in for pre-apps I tell them the say thing. Okay on this issue I'm pretty sure they're going to do this and I would really - I wouldn't go there because you're not going to get through. Berg: The consistent thing is it's inconsistent. You don't out guess the Council. ~~~ Canning: No but you have a general inclination of how they're going to go. Zaremba: But we want to be supporting their work. We don't want them to be recommending things that are dead before they get there. '' Nary: One of the things that I think has helped some in the last year is before where the Mayor -especially the Mayor I mean the Council is a little different. Again, you all . a realize what pushes their buttons is different than what pushes your buttons. Especially ~~~ ` "~` as elected officials - it's a different ballgame completely. Part of the thing and why guess I think there is a much better connection is because there is better dialogue and ` communication. You folks can't communicate with them other than through your ~., meeting minutes which you know (inaudible--------------------) it depends on the issue but they also have more communication I mean not only now that they have Planning Staff and the Mayor talks to Anna quite a bit or the Planning Staff to get feedback and the ~`_" ~' ~~, _ ~ feel of why did they do that? I mean, maybe their initial gut for the Council and the ' ' '_~ l~y~ Mayor was well that doesn t seem to jive with what I m thinking when I entered this ~ ro ect so what was the rational the were usin Also ou have not 'ust the Plannin P 1 Y 9• Y 1 9 ,. Staff there that's very regular the Public Works Staff that's there in front of the Council ~~.` '~ you also have your Legal Staff that's there. All of then are able to communicate then ~`" well here's kind of what it was. Now again, they have different reasons for why they ~. ~ choose to do stuff. They don't disagree very much. I agree with Anna. I don't think ~ ~~ - they disagree very often. Sometimes I mean it is generally its wholesale there is a y different reason there is a different rational of either denying it. You know they've ~'''A certainly denied some things you folks have approved they certainly approved some e things you folks have denied. If you stack them up as to how many probably not very `` ~`' an' many. I really don't believe it's very many. There may have been ones that were kind Lry' "`' of heated and again it just sort of depends on what pushes the Council and how much reason can it be. The other thing, and maybe that's part of this report is sometimes ~'' :: what they brought to you and what you didn't like then they made some adjustments to ~,. that. They make those commitments in front of the Council you know that they're willing '~ ` ` ~ to make some adjustments or changes to do what Council likes. What you may have _ ~- - wanted and what you may have recommended denial because you didn't like that ~¢ you're willing to now do it. They've approved something and you may only hear back ';' well they approved that. Yes well they approved it with the stuff you really wanted in the r ~ first place anyway. Maybe that's some of that communication that you folks can get ,,, back because you don't always know that they really did listen to what you said they just 4'~"' ~ got them to do it. ~~ . •.i71~[awY '.5°:._y; ~ ."~ ~...-~ $` x .Jr'{ 'i1'~d L4;Y}'. ~": 5~'jy f~ w~.: ^,,R:'~~~~: ., 1 ~.~"~,yxyi~? ";. ~a T; _;~'~ ~ ^ ~ p ~'•' r'E 4 , t t:..n •Y: ~'~i.•:.. ~ a~ ~ 4a ~ 2 ~ u. ..r~, l : ~+af e jw ;~°.~. ; v' ` 4 :' , ~ ~ ~.~i , . ; . { .~ : ;3as r ;,r~~ „'~: t`u.:i: ~ r ~ ,a:` ~:•~iN~T~.:if:r':z c;~w,"-3d`~'~'~~" _ 1 ~~ a f~ .4 ~;~ w :~.; ~ ~'' ~ ~:~ - - ~ 3 ~~. ~ i' R i ' 1 '_. .~ -Y r,~lwd g °`!~~• ~ ! *f y.\ ~' ~~ ~, •'~~'~,5 r„y"f~ :) :.`}1,~ r f.~b. "i f :.4 '~ t ` :~ ~ ~ . '~ ~~..:.'; ,.,• yap„'~i~ z~F'•" (t I ', 1.' Y7 ~ . ~ : ,5''.` ~')~f 3~li^/ f`t~-'N ~~•zE. A f Y l 1 ,1 ntf F• ~~t•{ ~~1', ,. F ' ' .; ~F% , v .- .: . ~ kF ~' "' ~ : A~:A•~~yT:.t°~:'•~R:''. 6`+S~• •:~T _ Ii': ~ .. .. ~' d ~ I. .. .nx .. ...nc.v ... .~,~ .~ 11_: i?..: h ~ 7~;z ~~~, , fi'r ?. _ .}. ~ ~. #~.~~~ S' a ,4 .J ids` k~ _ ~ ~.,yx ti ~ : _ ~s .z ~. ~; h ~ F ~ ' F~- w 6_ ; d ~` % '' . ~ ~. `t _ y1 }, f J L ~, ~. o~ 4 - ° _~.:, 1 ~ t . N~ t ~{ #~ ~'5.., ~T. F .. } !' ~:tl~ xr _ M ~.. Meridian Planning 8~ Zoning Special Meeting >~`" ~ November 29, 2005 ~~"` Page 39 of 52 ~„ ~,- r ~. ~' ~~ Hawkins-Clark: Or ask us to put into the formal recommendation that we prepare to ~,~~r them if there is somethin that ou reall want Council to know. -' ; , , 9 Y Y Nary: Meaning the editorial (inaudible--------------------). ~x` ~~ Hawkins-Clark: (inaudible) no really I mean that's part of what it's about. ~,: ~,, ~ Canning: You're leaving. `~`'`~"~' Zaremba: Well and one of the other parts of that is I think it's really important for the 5~' Tuesday meetings to have a meeting with City Council and us. There theoretically were E,.. ~~' four of those this year one of them being today. ` Canning: I have to do a list of questions for City Council for well (inaudible------------------ - --). „j Zaremba: Well I would just like an opportunity to sit down and brainstorm with them. :.~~ ,.-a Canning: And I will bring that -there's an opportunity for me to bring that to their attention and I will really hit home on it. I think all of us need to be able to sit down and ., talk to City Council. We've all been feeling that this last year (inaudible--------------------). 4~ ''' Nary: (inaudible--------------------) decided since I mean even if (inaudible) you folks have that Council - I mean Will did a stat for them the Council had 76 meetings last year. :r They still took a few weeks off occasionally. So you get to this 5~' Tuesday and I'll tell you it is like pulling teeth for them to say it's one -you know one of three Tuesdays this :: ' year we aren't meeting so I would like a break. That's what's tough. The (inaudible------ Zaremba: The other thing is that in addition to the 76 meetings they had as a Council every one of them is liaison to some department. Every one of them is liaison to some regional commission or board. They are nearly full time and not been recognized for ~,,°~ that. I agree. It's hard to get them to pull teeth but I just feel for our ability to work hand in hand with them we need to get some of their philosophy. ~~`~' Canning: We need to be able to do more with Pre-Council's too. If they're willing to a_ , come in and do aPre-Council (inaudible--------------------). ~~ Nary: I think it's something if we could find a different way - yes I mean maybe there's ~' ' ~ a different way to approach it then the 5th Tuesday. That seemed like a good idea a ~'`` ~ couple of years ago and that's again, we've been fortunate in the last couple of years to get one of those a year not even close to three or four but maybe through aPre-Council `,~~-° or maybe through a lunch meeting instead of an evening meeting maybe that's an opportunity. It's tough when you have (inaudible) we'll have three Council Members a~ ,;~r l'^.:Hq'r„~'~~ +4` •cfi.';'s" ' ;~i• ~s,. c 1 ~.~ ' '~ 1 .,~,uC~.. w^r3. * "-`•'~~=~r. ~,"- ;~-.rrr~~J~~ ' ' 'Lt'~~_,~ x"iT~~3'"~a.. ~uw d. '~{~,4, ~~ ~~ ~ I F~ .:H ~.. i '+.3. Y.f y.". .~:yi~._'. ~ •~.i w~fY ; "l: '. ~4Y~p5~"'F;":. ~' ,. .. ... -, ' 3 ~.. ` ~ •: .' d ,+Ta ~y.~, s F ' R u ~ • M ~bb ' ... r ".. J .F ., . ~5;'lY ~.+. pl: .~ J ~~:. `~'~ ~~n , .! bA. {... ~: 3 ; y,4~- ~~~~ ',5 ~~.~ir<:~ ~ Y~~' ~ .'{ V.-..%'"y.~d ° ^ i ~' ~f - ~ ~r k ..~;,~:yr~ ~~'R+°; ~~"5a.;~M1'El: , i F~ ' ; .g ~'`fi k z3.:~ r ~ s R, € 4~ :~:~.~,~'~ + ~ ' ~ ~ ~ j , . ,.. ,;15 'a M ~ r-` : •n+ ..f~ +r.~, .S A tt.~ ~ i 1 ` '• I ~ ~ < ~ yt,; < . < .~ a A S~a' " ° ' ? ~ '+ir ~.ay:; :d.asea-; i.1^1~~~i. au.F~v, t.J V, t .~y. ~ d ~ ` r ~ TA ' ~ at# : L; . " r ~'~ '' u f ~ l' ~ ;; s ~ `< ~"~ 3r„.,:., :,. . $ . Hkyy 6' °k a f '~ ~!h ~ n ~17f ip{, ke ~'i?f .R~ ! ~ i .s s ~ `Lh ; , ^'~ ' Y, 1f $ ' e Ce •,,,. ~a`, a. y b rl~ , • 1:: • rJi .. t9i. t ,w ~s~f, r: ~ ~F'., r~' ~" ~ 1 r. 5 hy,~,d~' . r, •~ F ; .>aaF ~n '":~~ R. ...ice ~"` ~r ~: ~ r~,~~4A ~' ~ a ~~,'. ~~ lY.9 ~ r t h 3 ~. 4.. yr, t , ~~ ~ ~ ~~ .' Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Meeting November 29, 2005 Page 40 of 52 who have full time jobs. Like you said, with all the other things they have to do one more meeting sometimes is tough. ~~~ Rohm: I like that Pre-Council Meeting. I can be here at 5:00 or I don't know what time their Pre-Council usually starts. '~ Canning: It's usually 6:00 and I know it's a little tough for you and David but (inaudible-- - ------------------). Newton-Huckabay: We should carpool „, ~~< E~,~ (Inaudible discussion) r; t Zaremba: Well I'm not saying that as a complaint I'm just saying it because we want to be supportive and work together. That seems to be a mechanism of doing it to be able to sit down and brainstorm once in awhile. Meridian Planning & Zoning Special meeting ` November 29, 2005 ~,. Page 41 of 52 presenting them that made sense when they were larger tracks, bigger pieces that weren't surrounded - ~~:. Canning: Slower pace of development. ~_ ~'..: Nary: Yes it was just a different way. A few years ago the planning director from Boise -~ said you know I mean over in Boise a big project for Boise is 50 homes. That's a big project for them. A big project for us is 900 homes. That's a big project. He asked me about Paramount when Paramount was coming through to get approved and at that point it was the largest one we had ever had. He said how did you guys ever approve ~1 that? I said well I think we had like two people come and complain. I mean the .-= (inaudible) it was all new problems. He's got one neighbor dissatisfied big deal. It's not ~~ --, . ~ that complex to deal with from that perspective of a Public Hearing. Now it's not quite , , ~~ '` that easy. Now there is more development and you do need -you folks need to and ~`~'~` ~ ` the Council needs to see the interplay of how the other developments fit. Why does this ` _ ~ make some sense? Again, not because they get to borrow from that. We've had that ~., before where there -you would see developers come and say well I don't need as much green space here because there's a big one over here that's somebody else's but that's good enough. Well that isn't good enough they really need to stand alone but it is ` ~ fair for you to want to ask what's around it, how does this fit with everyone else, how ,.;<_ ~.. ` ` ' does this fit with all the bigger picture of what that map is supposed is to look like r ~` ,w•~ ~r eventually so you're not making a decision in a vacuum. Those are perfectly , reasonable questions to ask. I think you should be asking that and the staff can get that information for you and show you what's around it. Where are the schools going to be? ~~~ Again you may not use that as your reason to deny it but you may want to have a sense of well schools are going to be here and the road system is this way and here is where Y '~ the road is going to be built. Again, the people in the audience they don't know. _~ ~ They're thinking you're agreeing to a 600 home subdivision with a two lane country road '~ . . next to it and they don't realize that it's on the five year work plan and that's going to be ~, : ;~iF~:; a five lane road generally by the time this gets built. The impact fees are going to pay "''" for that, it's going to happen and that's how it's going to be. Those are things that are ° fair to ask. Again, what's the best interest of the city, what you reasonably think is in the best interest of the city in the long term and your best guide could add as the map. That was what was determined at the point that it was passed and until it changes that is best interest of the city. It looks something like that. It generally fits those patterns and ;; , that's okay. . . ~. ~~~~z~' Canning: And can the surrounding properties which is I think is kind of what (inaudible-- ------------------) if that project goes in can the surrounding properties also develop °` H according to the Comprehensive Plan or is what their doing blocking future development ~` ±'t~' on the properties. (Inaudible). Zaremba: Well we had that discussion I think it was Locust Grove where there was a certain quantity of non-residential allowable and we were already exceeding that when some application came in for an office building. ,.4 "l d * ~ t x t F ~- 7" ' / 4`r a x f ~;?~, vM is ~ x° ~ ~y M ~ ~,~ cw7 ~~. r x 3! }C~ ~. Y x ~ . ~s 7S f ., r ^ r . ~*'• ,.~ , ~' f .V ~y~ ~•h.. ~W..'?::.},~~~' :..~14~f' 7Ir •~ '~ 1 ~ ' ~ ,r ~~:l • ~ ~ y 5 11 L ~. v~y' .#" ; 1 ..~ .[ Y ~r1f ~t::P3 ;'~~SiLe ~°'~ ~ mot . 1. . ..~';t , e. ~':_„ey. e"+~yi a, %^3. • ~ ~ ~` ~ ~,' S" , ~ ~~rd 1 ... 9; 1 .~ v'"w'' q,prY, ~ {; 1 f ~"i s~ `~x;;..,t~'w},; ;3', ;Y ;,;,L~.: '~.} ; .'~' u..._ ..4 r~ a ,. i. w r ;'~. _r.. 'r . E: ~ . X39.:' ~:R`.,,. ' v ~ e ....in; r,,r~; :u.'~:i.^ ,i, ~ ~.. ~. f; 1 ..• . ~... n .. ¢"yf :.r: :;P;.FI, is !~. y., ~ d~~ ~ * ~ ~ .f~•41,'*, £3~'~„;. ";4:».~";,.~~riy..r2':r. ~. r~'^' ,~ ~`b Z y y t~ ~ y .:. ~:.cy", s ~ ~ ~ ,p. ~~ 3e i ~,~ ,~ ~`% ~' :~' :r. . ss~i.~ ~. Apr ~.~:.t.;}::s,? . cay}.+ t ~ ~ .. . * ` ,4.~f. :. k ,. ~ .' ~ a ~ -~` r- ~h~' 4. ~~ Q~ Y 4 }; r , k; ` +.~. ~ k- , ~~ ~ : - ~ a ti~~ t - i. ~~- _. ~ ~ r '° . , ~ ` ~ r ~.-.~. ~. ~ r. 5-~ - '~ i i G, ~i ~N 7~.. ~'' ? Meridian Planning & Zoning Special M~fing November 29, 2005 Page 42 of 52 •. ~. ~:2 F ._ ~.' ~~ r- ~,;; ~~,; ~: ,. ~:: ;~, _. ~', I ,_. ,{ I CJ Nary: Same issue with the Seventh Day Adventist Church on Black Cat. We pushed very hard to have access for those rear properties just like Anna was saying so the ability for those to develop and meet those Comprehensive Plan densities and guidelines and build out still are trying to be met. You can -you don't necessarily have to say well you don't -you can't (inaudible) till all your neighbors come to build too but can at least your build or what you're wanting to build allow those other ones to happen in the same manner we would like to happen or saying lose the opportunity (inaudible--- -----------------) activity or stub streets or whatever. Newton-Huckabay: There was a situation not too long ago and it was one of the examples I put on here that Linder road property and - Zaremba: South of Franklin? Newton-Huckabay: Yes. I was real frustrated on that one because I was traveling during the first meeting that was continued it came back through. Basically, it was said this really isn't going to develop -isn't good to develop without the other property owners around you developing and Idon't -you can't really do that can you? You can't say you can't develop your property because your neighbor to the north and the - yourneighbor to the south doesn't want to go in with you? Nary: No but again, it's kind of how you say it. It wouldn't probably make much sense to say, you can't develop until your neighbors develop. We just prefer your property come in with the rest. Well that's not reasonable. They don't have to buy their neighbors and they don't have to -but the question really is, is if you allow this to develop in this manner can the other surrounding properties develop -you know are they stuck. Is it going to be compatible is it going to fit? Sometimes and especially like that one long skinny pieces are really really tough to develop in a vacuum. The one that I was thinking about was Kodiak which was the little tiny skinny development piece on Highway 69 next to Bear Creek that was really tiny. When he first brought it to the commission and said here's kind of generally what we would like to do the commission said okay well that might be okay that's fine. They didn't make a commitment they said well that makes sense. When he finally drew it to paper and tried to put a road in and tried to put some open space in and tried to make it workable into what he liked to build and what he could build and what he wanted he got turned down two or three times because it just never could fit. Eventually he sold it to Bear Creek because he couldn't develop it himself. That's the challenge of those little tiny pieces. It's not - it wouldn't be necessarily reasonable again, it's not very clear in the law as to what your bases has to be. You're never obligated to annex property you don't want to annex but it's not very reasonable or fair to anybody to say we just -we're going to wait to the property next to you develops. I think you just have to look at it like we said how does this relate to the others, how could the others develop, would this really pretty much limit any other opportunities there because until the rest of them develop the connectivity or the ability for them to have some buffer or some differences between these properties or some setbacks it just won't work. It's just too small. That's okay I think that's reasonable. =.~;,~ ~. ..~ ,~ , , ~ .. ~? ~..ir 'a~~;3 { _ ~ T Z ~~ ~ ~ 44r ~r.y:; `Y ~ ~ ~5.' ~ ~i~ i - ~ ~ ( ~ f* ~ i ce ~ ; ~~yy~~ 'i ~ C `~ ~'F `~ f~~ ~ 6 yy ; t V + ~i c ~ ~~y , 4 ~ :~ _ r "~ _ N ry n ~3 ~fi fi M, ~ ~ ~'a~~'~ 4~ ' 1 ~ ~{ )' V...r :-Y ` LYE f~' \ ~` ~ .. ~( f ti ~+~ ~ ~ ~ i _ Y ~ ~Gr a '~~ inn. :~,: _ k~~ c'.• ~'xa~~ t aw:. w3 h f~)~y~y '~ ~~~ ~I '~'A~LTT'~i~` fir ~ ' ~ - A <~ 5" ~ z ~ T '~ww t .r ,~ ..r#.. Y 1 ~ Q~- ' L M'~F ~iR'q, ti~~ rt ,..r. *~~~w, y ~ , ~ J y~sF-~ .,~~ ~t: ~ ' -~ ~ '~ ; ,. psi ~""~tk' ~ ` , J, o • Meridian Planning & Zoning SpeciallGt'eeting ~. November 29, 2005 ae= Page 43 of 52 ~'~ Hawkins-Clark: I guess it is important to differentiate between the annexation ., applications and property that's already annexed, which Milliron which already had the <~. R-4 zone all they did was wanted to plat it and Cole's which already had the C-G. You ~:: . ~~~'~- are required to give you reasons in writing for those. ~' Rohm: For annexation or Prelimina Plat? -" ry ` -. Cry Nary: Those were annexed. ~~~~ (Inaudible discussion) ~; S ~~r,Z. Rohm: If you're denying annexation you don't have to give - we can just say we don't ~ want it. Nary: Right. ~~ Canning: You know it's not just being fair to - :~ Zaremba: The reason for the other ones is we don't have jurisdiction they've been "'' ~ annexed. f.'i' -i. Canning: Right but it's not only helpful to the client or the applicant that's being denied ~~_ ' but (inaudible) if you don't give us any clue we don't know what to tell people. It ,~ becomes - if we don't know where everyone is headed then we can't give them very . good direction at the beginning of the process and you have to do more work when it ~~~'~';' gets to you. The more information you can give us the better. s~,: -: ~, ~:' ~.4 ~~ ~. ~t.. ~' h~, ' 6 S ~ = ~~~ Nary: In a developer perfect world they would always like to win but the next best thing would be they at least had some reasonable expectation of what the outcome is going to be. That's the problem. It just feels like it came out of left field and you know the staff especially was encouraging that. Then the commission or Council says we don't like it. We just don't - it doesn't fit we don't like it. That makes it awfully tough - it hurts their credibility in dealing with the developer because now when they're saying we think it should be this -the developers thinking how do you know. Canning: That happened with Irvine. I don't know if you all know they denied (inaudible) what happened. Kevin Amar shows up the next day why did they deny me. It was like I don't know. Nary: Like Brad said Milliron was different. Milliron was annexed. All the concessions and there wasn't a lot of them but the concession we got in Milliron was really them trying to maintain good will with the Council because they knew if they really wanted to play hardball they could but tomorrow they need something annexed and tomorrow they're at the other end of the stick and they don't want to be there. They're trying to be fair. ~'s,„-: , ~.i~ x • ~ ~~ _~~ ~,„. ~; >",tip M`. ~. ~+~?~~ 4 ~` ~ Y l ~ i ~. ~ ~: ':t~ ~y ~,} ~ ~ I_k'-' $$y~ ~ ~x M ~rrt 1 :: ~' - ;~ x~..x .~ i s a -~~ . . ~ t ; ~ i 2°!; R t. '~~/ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Meting November 29, 2005 Page 44 of 52 "::.°, Zaremba: Well I remember the look on his face when somebody objected. He said it's already an R-4 this is what we're proposing. 'i ;:;{; i:.; ... ~`'.', ~:: .;.: ~, _. H'.. ~:`.~.~. .. ,_ .e '~ :.,.. ->< ~. t ~; ~;,' ~_., ;~~~ `: ~~, ,_ ~. 4~_ i '. Nary: Yes. In the hallway you're telling me (inaudible--------------------). In the hallway the developer is telling me you're going to tell the Council we get to do this. I said yes legally you can but tomorrow you're going to need them remember so you don't want to necessarily play that hard unless this is the only property you're going to develop in your life here. There is that give and take that's necessary. That I think Anna is 100 percent right. Any guidance you can give them even though it's not necessarily required is helpful. If you go any too far certainly that's both the Planning staff and our staffs responsibility to tell you that's probably enough. That's enough information to make the record clean enough so we're clear you don't have to tell them anymore. I think any of that's very helpful. Mostly from just the practical customer oriented customer service perspective not you know an annexation (inaudible). Zaremba: Well I think it's -one of the things that I say about developers is is the best thing we can be is fair and make it a level playing field. They should have expectations of what our response is going to be to certain things. It should be similar to a similar expectation on another project so that it's a level playing field. Canning: And they don't mind if you have high expectations. Zaremba: Yes as long as we apply them to everybody. Canning: As long as you apply them evenly yes. They will spend more money if they're fairly sure that they will get approval rather than spend less money with a risky outcome. Zaremba: And that a competitor needs to spend the same amount of money to get their project. Canning: Right. If you want to move on - Newton-Huckabay: Actually I just want to ask Mike a question on this issue. I perceive that there are going to be more and more of these little pieces of property starting to come through because that's not -there are not a lot of huge pieces of property left. Given the fact that you can't say well you know I would really like you to wait and develop with your neighbors is it appropriate then at that point to say to the developer we're just not seeing how this property can develop efficiently without - or effectively without your neighbors developing. Can you maybe suggest some ways that you could see the property around it developing so that your pieces -you can develop your piece. Obviously that's not abinding - Canning: And let's use (inaudible). Sometimes I do ask for that. Sometimes I get it sometimes I don't. I will ask for that. If I can't see it and I'm pretty good at seeing these things. If I can't see it I say help. I cannot see how your neighbors can develop. It would help me if you could lay out something that (inaudible) half the time they come in a ~.~ ,, ' ;' i r ~ ~ g -~ ,+ ~ t s ~ ~~'; ~ - 7 ",v r + ` ?kt ,, 4 : ~' ~ ~ . ,~ s ~ °~t' ti i r h -.r r ~ ~ , Y ~ ~~ ~ +~4~F ~ y -~ „_, _ ti`~ : ~ .< C t ~ ~~ 3~ ~ a .. ;~trt-n c j ~~c ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ' ~ ,.,~~+ F ~ '~ ~, ~ r.T ~, , . ~~s ~T r; ~ f ,., £ W '7~; ~~,t.„y;.,: >Faiiq ~~ t~ ~ t; :- ~ ~{.~,,, ~ ...., ,~~r , ~ f ?~t. I ~}, f ~ Y ~~ 3 ~ ~~ ~~~ ~~. ~F. t~ _ v %5ttrjH. .~ ' .f r ":.~ d''a a 4 « :'F ~ : ,~g~ n. ~ ~ ~ ~ . , ,'7t ~ey i F y~~F~ fit` ~ : ~~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~ t , }~~;~~ v-'.44 ~~~'_ dd~ K4~ ~ C fry ~ , ~ ~ u ~-~ . ~„ - i+~t ni`fYn f > ~. ~~~ .. - .,[ ?:':_:- `'t Y '. ` Meridian Planning & Zoning Special lol"eeting November 29, 2005 ~ > Page 45 of 52 ~~ ~ with (inaudible--------------------) it wouldn't be inappropriate for you to say exactly that i~}~~ instead of saying can you (inaudible--------------------) table you to our next (inaudible------ „~;.. . --------------) so you can do that. Rather than get him to talk get him to draw it out. That ~, ;; happened on - ~ .. Zaremba: And give it to staff first. ~; Canning: Well -yes. It doesn't take - it either works or it doesn't. ~~'~~' Newton-Huckabay: Because I would be more inclined to say you know what you develop that strip of property right there with 14 houses right in a row because knowing a~,x ~° what's going to come in next to you is going to put 14 houses right in a row on the other side and that's going to look good versus - i ~;,.,, ~` Canning: Exactly. And all it takes is the Planning Commission doing it once or twice ~ . ~ and then when I say geez I sure would like a concept plan for this are you going to give , . _ ~~ `" it to me now or do you want to tabled at Planning and Zoning Commission and have =;~~ them ask you for it. It has (inaudible--------------------). Nary: (inaudible--------------------) and it's kind of like when we were talking about the property down on Linder. Make sure if you choose to do that that you make it clear to , ~; , them we're not committing to approve your project we're just trying to figure out how to § - make it work if you want to bring it in the way you're talking about it we need to see a lot ~~~' : more before we can do that. But you can choose not to do it. We spend and I'm sure „~ Commissioner Moe remembers on that particular project he spent about five minutes saying understand you choose to do it there's no commitment on this end of this r_ ; Commission to approve it and then you didn't approve it. Because you don't want them coming back and saying, I did everything you asked me to and now you're telling me no. What you're telling them is before I can consider a yes I need more information. I need Y~ to be able to look at that big picture. That's my responsibility as a commissioner so '' want to see that. I'm not committed to this project until I see all of it and then I'll decide ~ ' if it fits and it makes sense and it allows the other properties to develop. If they choose ~~~` not to and they say you know what, we're not going to spend another 3 000 dollars of , our planner to go do that. We're not going to do that so just take it as it is deny it or approve it then move on. That's your call. That's perfectly fine too. I just don't want to leave somebody with the impression that if we go and jump through the hoop you just asked me to you're going to approve me because (inaudible). ~~, ; ~~ :;, F Canning: And on that Linder subdivision they did show redevelopment plans to the .. ~ `~ property of the south and that nearly (inaudible--------------------) showed the north and ~' ~ '~' that was the real issue. How does that long skinny one to the north (inaudible------------- "° -------) that's a long skinny weed patch after time is all that is. ~: ~ Rohm: And (inaudible--------------------) downside to that is that long skinny patch to the north is holding the balance hostage in a manner of speaking and I take exception to that as an individual land owner knowing that their parcel is - ,.~~ .. ' ~ . i •~'1,'"ye~C3 ; ;f. S c . 4 7"y i. ~ 7 r ~ f .f k~ fl .~ ~ 4? Y^5`!; yY°~t p, p 'u v :i """yyyy ^ ~ .k ' : ~> ?r icy s a b "Y'"Y `~~,'J' S`' ~' S "' ~' • ~ B: Y 5[ . ~ i . [ i .+lY t ' , ^ ro'~ ~ l ., ~ ~ Y4.N..F~S S~<X; L: ~:~#~~ n K ' . w , ; ~f , I d A. rs +. . . . 'l Ly ~y y '1,."µ 'y`,l 1 }.11 ~' ~''+R S ~ ~.. ~ ~ F S i t , ~~ `M3F ' 4`.4. +3 fl^$"nd' s v~ •~":t s"~ .:. .ti 7 f '~5 ~ ~n,Y'~ I h i I. . M'~' j"! , fr fed' ~$~ .' ..b I'. 1 r• . ~" rr4r.'a~, ~=~~ Sq~~°o { ;''~ F~'~5-~ ~ v-ti:;:,.1Y Bird m ~ r `t i~ i{ ~, i rr.,• ;~ ~'H'YSr~ ,~ ~+d~ iWW~`i;~~ ~~} w1,.-. T ~` r-.!'tom;. t z. ~i v'U u y. ,Ab ,' 5t 4 Meridian Planning & Zoning Speciall~eting '~ '~ November 29, 2005 ' ~ Page 46 of 52 ~ , ~, '~ Zaremba: The key property. ' ~~ ~ y~; ;.y;. r .. ~ Rohm: Is a key to the development of the balance and say - .. ~ ~~: ~' ` Canning: And what I told Dave was yes that's true but you have two choices. One you ~ ' either bring that one in so you can get the density you're looking for or two you -w~ reco nize that that ones not comin g g (inaudible--------------------) against a half acre lot ~- just (inaudible--------------------) something like that but if you can't address how that north F'. ~'' property redevelops then you're redeveloping adjoining acre lots instead of (inaudible---- , ---------------- 5,000 square foot lots (inaudible--------------------) that's how I see that .F -' issue. You're right they can't hold them hostage but if they don't want to play then you have to deal with that. ,~ , :: Hawkins-Clark: (Inaudible) best interest. i '~ . ~~ ~ Nary: And also that I guess is sort of the benefit of where our community is growing is ` land is way too valuable to have a really big spike strip. It just isn't worth having that. (Inaudible) off your back yard is to leave it so that you can (inaudible--------------------). I ' think the land value is so high here right now that it's just not realistic that people are r going to do that very much. That was a little fuss (inaudible--------------------). ~ ' ~~ Zaremba: Well land value isn t high until they stop talking about acres and start selling Y ' ~ (inaudible--------------------). Then you know it's high when they won't tell you what the "~ ~ N,~ acre price is. It's this much a square foot. ~-; ~- ~ Canning: They are starting to sell the residential properties per square foot. It's scary. ' Number 18 we can move onto that one because I don't know the answer - well I know the answer I don't know the question to 19 but I know the answer is 69 is that right. ~ &~ . Hawkins-Clark: 42. ~~ ~ ~~:~. r ~ Canning: 42 thank you. ''JJ .. ~ 'f ~, '~° Nary: I thought it was move to Emmett was the answer. ; , Canning: 42 is the answer but I don't know what the question is. 18. t 4 s~ Rohm: Actually I think you've already answered that. ~ '~ i `tom.. ~ ~ Hawkins-Clark: Yes we just talked about that. -. ~!' ',ti9 x' ,~: , `~ Canning: Well I want to add something though. This gets to what I think that you sometimes struggle with is what's -how is your role different from staff and maybe how _;-; does your role differ from City Council and where do you fall (inaudible--------------------). `~ ~ We have to just look at code and the Comp Plan and so that's our job. We're operating ~S 4 t. ~ 1~ ~ ~" ~ ~:' `.' j Q '~ ~~~r { t i 1r ,,,. .~.; i ;? c `~ ~L , - - , g ftpy,'~~ s ~~ ~ '~ i 4 ~`~ ~ jj ~ i ) ~~ ~ ~~F t ~ ixaL ~, a ~ ~~ ~' ~ „~y, -. F C$ ~~ i = ~ I ' r l , ~ ~~~~~ L-~. ' tJ,s lbw F i '~':3' h _ ~o- w.;' i~ ~~ ~' j . _ ~YG ~If ~"~j 5? .T ~'~ ! C .. j(yy wi~ ~* 4~ i~F r. . y i11~i~ ff t,, S. ? ~ ~ 'i ~ .N' ~+` - ' . 1 ~ 4 dots'} ~ 1 f ~` f R ~ { ~i7~{ ~ Ai~' .' o-. 4a, ~ ~~~ h a y7Yprv~F '~~ ~~ 'i F.ti"f 3 ~' 4iY~ ~~ ~~ - ~ ~ tNtt i ~^H r li b . ~~ ' ~ _r ~ i`rr.t i iv y@ ~3C ~ 7~~+ - f ;~ 1 JIB "'6 ~~ ~.~T } - ~ J2~L1 .. r 4:y ~ . ~~, ~"~F~''%1''f' `~k~C~ E' . s~ .~ ~ T ~ , _ .~~_: ~ g~'Y~.i .a .. - - ~ ~ .i/ -'~ - i ~3~rit1~ 1 ~'~~ J t ~~C t~'` ~ ~ ~ '.V i ~f a Cj6•. J h 1~ n+ 4;~ ,r. ~.~~ _ 3 i ~i~~i~Y ,~R~ ,. w A d: ~ T '. t M~A 7 'y6~Y..~~3i ~ ~ ~~7~a' d, ~'~ ''€t Meridian Plannin & Zonin S ecial Nl~i g g p ng N b 29 2005 ovem er , Page 47 of 52 without the benefit of any public testimony. If you receive compelling public testimony ~' ~~ you should never feel like you're not supporting staff or somehow feel guilty about (inaudible) against what staff originally recommended. Our job is a very narrow focus '~~ and you guys have a much broader focus. You have to (inaudible--------------------) and you have to decide whether it feels right. That's the big thing that Idon't -especially if ~:,: there's some discretionary review like (inaudible--------------------) as much discretion as the city attorney (inaudible) but most of our stuff is you know annexation and CU's. State code says you can add whatever conditions you want to a CU. As long as they're on site you can pretty much do whatever you want. Don't ignore that it doesn't feel right you know. -r=~~~ Zaremba: But can we say that out loud. Sometimes I want to say this stinks but - ~~ tip.. Nary: I think what Anna is saying is you know what's interesting too about commissions is all cities -well most of the cities I'm aware of the commissions have people of particular expertise and experience that they want on that or architects or you know building backgrounds. Every one of you has a different level of experience or expertise that you bring and that's intended. That's why -that may be the reason that the Mayor ~~.`ti ' selected you over somebody else. If you brought something different to the mix of ''"~ people and the intention was to have a mix to again take that balance between what the staff is saying this is what our code says this is what the code and the Comp Plan says. ~:~ This is what we think and this is what the public thinks. You guys can decide and apply your experience to that. That's perfectly fine to say this doesn't feel right to me because Keith talks about building things a lot because that's what he knows so he can apply ~;; that level of expertise with that. That's what it's supposed to be. You're not there to be ~~, ' anybody's advocate. The staff advocates for certain things that the developer ```~' ` ~w;~ advocates for certain thin sand the ublic advocates for certain thins You don't have 9 P 9 - to be that advocate. You get to balance all those different things in making your decision. That's perfectly fine you're not there to pick sides. You're there to try to rr-;:; balance all those different things in looking at the code and the Comp Plan and then making a decision. So you know what doesn't feel right that's okay. You want to ' articulate that. I think generally the staff or the legal staff is going to say well you might "`~ want to be more specific of what you mean by that but that's okay. ~2:~ Rohm: Just because I was the one that wrote this last question. I think that the P,., _ discussion of (inaudible--------------------) brought quite a bit of clarity to (inaudible---------- ~; ----------) don't have to annex anything that doesn't feel right. Then the balance of the ~ =j~ applications whether it's a Preliminary Plat or otherwise can fall by the waste side if P~ ; ~ i you're not going to consider annexation. (Inaudible--------------------) that makes sense ,:, .~ (inaudible--------------------). ~~ Nary: At the end of it you recognize that when you folks pass it on the Council has a ~1~~fi.~ whole different set of reasons, rationale experience and the political part of that Those r - , . constituents that are standing in front of them they have different reasons why they do things and that's okay too. That's part of the way the process is supposed to work. You ~~ ,a~'~ Sa$ ~~` r .y2 ~F by 3~ ~. ~~"~ ~ ; .~n y `~ t .~w .~a'h f~•~ rk ~,5 _F ~k.w s ~. y; [~~~:'~' f ~! a~'; y, ~ r Xsi ~i ~. ~.-:: ~` +X ;~, ;k s y~ .~ ~~ ~t .. r J kf ti- .. .., k .~ z '~ { ' ., ,s _.. ~, s Meridian Planning & Zoning Special feting November 29, 2005 ~.~~_ Page 48 of 52 ~'- ~:~~~~, ~,1.. S~'~~ r.:~s~ ~;,~~: folks don't get elected and you don't have to worry about that part of it. Council does and they have to balance those things. Rohm: I think a real good case where the political side was able to use this planning groups action and way off on us if you will is on Eagle Road on the west side north of Franklin when that parcel wanted to go in as commercial and it was zoned industrial and we as Planning and Zoning recommended to the Council to change the zoning to commercial and the Council could then refer back and say we did this under for a recommendation by our Planning and Zoning Commission. It was a way that they could make something happen and it's not like it was a political decision for them they were just acting on the recommendations of others. That's the way I read that. Newton-Huckabay: But not my recommendation for the record. Rohm: Oh I remember that. Canning: I think it's great when you disagree with us. (Inaudible--------------------). Hawkins-Clark: And I would add I think it's great when you disagree amongst each other. Not that you have to but really that's part of the duty of the democratic process. Zaremba: And I do appreciate it when we have differentiating opinions. Nary: And you know it's a great message to the public. As a public in general when they don't understand exactly how the process works thinks it's all a big rubber stamp. Some developer walks in here and everybody just rolls over and gives them what they want. None of them saw how much time and effort Anna and her staff went to get it to this point even for you to see it and what it looked like when they brought it it didn't see your debate and your discussion and what you may have gotten them to see to or agree to to do things and the same thing when the Council does the same thing. At the end they just see something building and say oh, they just approved another thing. No they went through a lot. I think even you said in one of the discussions we had with the press I think maybe a quote in the paper saying you know do we control growth? We control growth a lot. Do we manage it do we prevent it but you folks and the staff do a lot to control what it looks like and what the outcome is and those kinds of things and that's great. Canning: I counted up that we have seven points in the process where we (inaudible) that's just a Preliminary Plat (inaudible--------------------) you and Council were the last two but staff - we read off on them before they ever get to you guys as much as we can and try to get (inaudible). I think in general (inaudible--------------------) would say that you could (inaudible--------------------) not uncommon for Planning Commissioners to (inaudible--------------------) on the feel rank kind of stuff and to have the more political decision coming out of City Council. (Inaudible--------------------) residential projects (inaudible--------------------) one of the five that's up there. (Inaudible--------------------) between when we write that staff report and when you make your decision. We're ,~~.~ :,~ f °~~ ~G ~} ~~ 4 ', ~i. _ ~b/~ +~ ~~ ~ ~..'~ C~' '!,*~4 r t a n?~"~ F.~:~ \~ ,:::~1, y: ` ^LL+; ? r .W 4 ~~' r r, ~~ #t .~ 'L-~;, ~k; ~,; .. r y- + s- E~~~ *C ~ ~~~~~ yT E t S"! ~ ,asp. -~ ~~d "~ , _.r,r.... _. _ ti ,. ~~ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special Nl~ting November 29, 2005 _ Page 49 of 52 _ talking to one person and then in adamant a couple of in adamant objects but you guys get 20 more bits of testimony before you have to make your question. ;° ~ Hood: Can Ijust -one (inaudible--------------------) not in the best interest we can pretty ~~~~ much deny anything. Would you recommend it -the way I kind of take Conditional Use ' Permits is you can condition the heck out of them and make it fit basically rather than ?, ~ saying deny just because it doesn't feel right. There are usually conditions you can make that we can put on that to make it feel right. Those conditions may say well that's too much and we're going away and if that deny them but you don't say (inaudible). Is that where you would maybe leave the condition? Because there may be those projects that they don't feel right as is but maybe there are six or seven or 10 things that F'' they condition it. ~~'. Nary: I think I guess on a Conditional Use if you can feel comfortable that you can ~~ condition the project to meet your goals and meet what your expectations are I think you ''' should. I think that's the -that's why they exist is to provide those conditions. I think there were some occasionally projects that no matter what you conditioned it just won't k`::> work. You couldn't condition it enough or the conditions feel so out of step, or -:- inconsistent or too onerous or just uncomfortable for you. That's okay too. I don't think ~''= you're going to see that very much. I think most of the time you're going to be able to put adequate conditions that you're going to feel comfortable that will meet the needs of what you folks think, what your public thinks, what the people that testify with the ~'~ ° -; neighbors what your experience has been. I think most of the time you're going to find ~:: that I think that's okay but you probably will run into something you're thinking no matter what we do I just don't think this works. It just doesn't make any sense. :~' ~: ~ Canning: Meat packing plant in the middle of downtown. There's this - ~``~~ Zaremba: Well why not? Let's see what conditions can we put on it? ~°: '~ ~ Newton-Huckabay: See my concern with that though is then it starts to come back ~:. ~' ` around in consistency and somebody's going to come up and say well you allowed that ~ _; for two properties down and why are you -now how come I can't have (inaudible--------- kq -----------) we start dulling out a whole bunch of conditions on a Conditional Use Permit >' to make it fit. I mean obviously two or three is fine. Aren't we going to run into that ~_ problem because the last thing I want to do is sit up here and contradict myself because ~.r don't remember everything. ~'`I~`~~~- Canning: Well you can always ask staff you know or you can say staff we're thinking -; about adding a time limit condition can we come back next week (inaudible----------------- ~~,:. ` ` ---). I think he had two requests for light office at the same time. Kc: i t.; , Newton-Huckabay: And that's very helpful. ~<~ii Canning: We told him okay you've done this, this, and this and we try to give you a ~'< #~~` heads up if we have some idea where the conditions might be going and that was ~., ,> .~ - t.. "A ~. ',%'t' ~';'a: .i'' Y i ~ ~ y s ~ fixl ,r-:kv,%t"r ~:,"x .~~. '(~ ~' *` c .'#''~:q„~G"».~5',-yF((~ ~ r. +i'e~..~NFW •. ~a~, 4:•.~~::t?W^r. I 9T tY. ~ 4'h. H. ~ { -i~Y •Za~.A .+ 'k~*~i ~~"~.F ;4Y^,'.j'<.~`~A..ir .~y: rt~+•5`. ',t a`S~~".~.^ `J x ~` h'.3, r.Y•S .•]~.i ~ ppy .' i py. ~~.. ..Y•••-. ;any-"a ~x ,c k j B .. r x - ~~~`.'.~,,.5.~, i ~ y 71 ~'k_. C, fY r „xt f I' t ~~~ f^, ~ ra !~` z-- . ,'•,t d% ,ro. r, r~±'~tt4~ ~ ~ -~ ~_ ~. tt it ±w ~. < 'r~ ~ ~ '} ry, ,. : 1 ~ Y '-~ ~ :,` r ^. ~'~a.. ~. f A . ti c . i t ~,t a i. ~+ t ~, ''''r: ;'- <. r " ~. ~~~ ~~-. ~.< - t' Meridian Planning & Zoning Speciall~eting November 29, 2005 Page 50 of 52 €'~``~ (inaudible) was an obvious one. You know (inaudible--------------------) we try and get ~~ through everything (inaudible--------------------) something to have it redesigned ,~` " (inaudible--------------------) other than trying to design it up there because we all know Y that that doesn't work. ~,a ~;~ Rohm: It doesn't work very well. 7~ ~~~;~ Newton-Huckabay: But you know we're (inaudible) die for trying I'll tell you that right now. ~`~~° Nary: You know sometimes -and that's what I think I know all of you struggle with at a=: :~,' times it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle because when you started the ~, discussion you just thought if you would do this little thing would that work and then ' ~ commissioner Moe would think oh well maybe this one would work too then all of a ..~r ~~. ! sudden you spend an hour redesigning the project. At the end of it you're still feeling ~a~k like you know I'd rather they came back. You would have been better off saying here's ei ht thins ou o fi ure out if ou can make this work for ou then come back in two ~,; 9 9 Y 9 9 Y Y ,, .,; weeks and that would make more sense then (inaudible) and all those things. Those x compatibility -you know you brought a great point is compatibility is really project driven. It ma make sense or ma be at least for the discussion to sa well we have ~° Y Y Y " ;; three other projects that we did that and we either didn't require that or we did. Again, ~~ this project has to stand alone it has to (inaudible) with its neighbors not just because -' the project that's a mile and a half away didn't have to have time on when their '~ deliveries could be or when their store could be o en but this one does well because ~- p this ones neighbors are different. Where it sits is different it's a different location. It's a ~~4; different -again it's still individually driven and that's okay but ask if it was comparison ~' '' is reasonable. Hawkins-Clark: And that issue of compatibility is - I don't think I ever told Anna this but ,. on this new staff report format the one thing I'm most uncomfortable with it is that our `'` findings are at the back when in fact that's the whole basis that even before you get - to • - start putting conditions you need to look at the findings and meet those. Then start with ~~ conditions. Zaremba: Well in the old one - ~:.` Hawkins-Clark: I mean it's easy to forget those things when in fact that's really -that's '~~ laid out for you what you should base your decision on. ,: `_`°` Zaremba: In the old format the findings sort of did come first. They weren't labeled findings they were more discussion but I agree with you. We got to that part first of the `~~~' ~~' issues that the planner was thinking about. Canning: Well there's -and if you get through there's that analysis leading to the ~`'`` decision part and that should be talking about the findings as well in there. That's just ~` ,~ the analysis all (inaudible--------------------) I didn't like about the old format is that half the ~;F;. H 4 ~ ; s m r , .. k , r _ ,~. , ~, I :fug:':'; , „ ~ l 7p j' R r 4 a' li'i•'-Kxf i :T:; 5 {~ y, ~ S ~: r ~ ~~i iT~ n !` ( "i'Y F ' ~ ~ fl u "i• ° ~~•:S ••pC4 '~~'• ~~ ~ ~ i ~ ~} ~ ~ - t Y ~ ~ { . . ;*t ` ~ . t _ ~ ? ~ ~ ? "y15 •S: ( :i//'r ,~ ; , ,•i- ' , -, ~ y: •i y'rfi.'i~` l4~ o~4'.k. ~ .e .. 1 !;~ Yr.•"{ . IS:. ~' ~. ~R *~''~wb~ h .#l,I., Sit- " ~1 ~ ~ t: ~ S [ w ,.'a• ;;~i~• 5 " ~ r '~Y ~ y '.~ . ~' f , . -'..s'.'a~. '.iG•~irv S'~ { A( e''~.Yi: 'e Gi.,vY~ ~ . :L:i .. 19 . ~ r -.c~. f ~ .. .. .-"l°.`. •`'';~;i:.4`~,.:i• . w u yr;.{Lx'3P:?•-`a .. •< , .. ~. ~,x~f a .j; ,i„ J. S r~` [ ';~k~ G~i _ r."~.y ",'i ~C i~.~~'~dl; ~~6. `;:5 l.^ 11 ~ X . fin }~ ',tom ' r'yw ~ ' `: ~~ ~ r ~ ~ . s i ;., ~ ~' i, { ~'r ~'+ "!~P'~+`~~'~;.i~.~~' :"1':~I "i 4 rl~. `~ ,~..,. f~,~~ •T ~ 'Wi`"t": . , ~" °a y`'~.i'4.4}~•.7;ia>:. ^. :$r f t % i I ~ '~.,t~ Y~~~'~'~~-'~ '~ is ' ,,•~ .k .:'~. n t t .. ., ~ r 1 ~' ~ xx ~ •,1=,~+: tri ~` ~f ~,'~ ~' it 2, h.:, J3 £4b rtf '; ~^p'~'`a ~.f oyl~>rA.'=R''fp a~v~x,~ ~ e t ~A ~ f ~ - ~ 7 ~ ~ " SS ~ • y ~ ~ ~ ' ~ f~:;is t ~ ,~ t B fyJX.. hF f . ~ ~.. ~. y v ;° r,_ .. ..t, A ;l - »..3 ' ? iac~ . ~ ~3•`; ~t k+~"' ~~~.'~,~ , Vii. ~.i^ ~ ;C ~ ~ ~. =kK ., " r';,, ~.,~z=w-'„~, . ~ ~ . ; ~ x •r.r., - urri; fir; ~~': ;• .- fi g~ pp d<... ~'t?„J£Fi~:•Pt: v ~::. _.. ~. .. .. ~ ~ r. ... 3 . .. .. .. X;. r. .>, _,.;t. .xr.,.~ r., ,. .,, ..,• r{{;'S~ ~.. '~ f': 3 k~xF~ rye rr i~wr ~ ~•, +yq h may, J ~.6 ~;~~ Y n 3.w:-~. a. i3 ~, z ~ti~ ~ - :z ~,;y~ Y 4 ?!~ s3 o- yT I~ Y~ryryry~~/1 3 E ~~'~ k~ t:.l~ q~~ .t ..~,. ~ ..~ s r {.. .: ~) ~ u '• ~. Y-~'~ t ~_ i z? ti: _ - Ye { `~.; .. ~ - F + , i - 1 w. ~~ ; ,. , N~ ~* ~' 4, - r ,~~' ~ ,^ ~~ _ Meridian Planning & Zoning Special eting ~';" ~ November 29, 2005 x', ' Page 51 of 52 ~:.> ; findings were so redundant and germane that you really had to (inaudible) through ~_~ `' those findings and until you knew what was -you didn't -that's clear to me where the r`:' staff report but if you didn't know that you would miss it. That's why I wanted to move ~=-~~ the -highlight the analysis section just as this is the analysis and you do (inaudible------- Moe: But on the new format and I brought this up a couple weeks ago too the one thing that I'm struggling with and I've even been asked a few of the applicants and what not is J .z `~ where we're -although it's nice to have the motions in that report I'm being questioned as to gee they've already written out your approval or your denial - '~? Canning: No you get all both options. We don't give you just one. r= ;;: t: >;;: Moe: Right. Canning: And it says to be considered after the public hearing. That's why we don't give you one we give you both because just to counteract that. It's just that - no this is just wording for (inaudible--------------------). Rohm: (inaudible--------------------) don't go on forever when I make a motion. Zaremba: A 30 page motion. Canning: You guys are way better. If I could get city Council to (inaudible------------------ --). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: I want to tell you one other thing before you all leave. With Bradley being - I've tried to make lemonade out of lemons so I am restructuring the department to have some structure. Right now you know there's no structure. There's just me -what I'm doing is I'm going to make Steve in charge of what we're going to call a Comprehensive Planning division. Craig is being promoted to the Principal Planner Position and he will be the (inaudible). He will be doing the current planning so he will do all the Commission hearings and then he'll substitute for me at City Council so you (inaudible-- ------------------). He will be in charge of all that you do (inaudible--------------------). I got in my work plan for this year to do a little more training for you. This was a great idea and I think this was probably one of the more effective training sessions I've (inaudible-------- Moe: You did a great job. Newton-Huckabay: we're going to be dangerous now. Canning: We will try and get - s t, ., t Fa%''n5 w' !c~r`!~`i ~ r ~~~ 4 e~" ~` ~ h!f~ 1 y~r' t ~ ` Yiy. ~'~ a4)~~~. ~~~~~~~ T iY ~ ~* C S ~~t~t~~ 4 Y ',n ~f~4 t~a hG _~ti ~~•~ry.~ $` ]]]~~j ~111~ n.. 5'Y f 413 ~ { .Z ~ ~ ; ~~~~ ~': ~~ <;>:' . `~~: ~;. ;,.:;~: Meridian Planning & Zoning Special ICILseting >., ~~s November 29, 2005 Page 52 of 52 Zaremba: We have said that we're going to miss Brad very much but we do all wish ''~;" you well. I certainly have appreciated your report for the many years that we've sort of worked together. I just wanted to say that first. To thank Brad for all his help and ~_, service. Thank you. ,~ }~'' ,~ Hawkins-Clark: Thank you very much you all do good work. We have a lot of headway. ~;'% Zaremba: Okay the chair would entertain a motion to adjourn. f'` MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. ~~-. ~: `, `:: ~,,,, ~~. ~,;:, ~:: ;: ~4:s: ~:. ~~.. ~.;. -u `,. ~. A,'i ~r %i ~~~~~ ~~ A~": y.c: f ,2'. ~'~. i S. ` .. ~`Y' r~ ~; ~> ~; .r', Y~ Zaremba: We are adjourned. Thank you all. This has been very helpful and thank you Brad. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:42 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) ~ I ~ ~ I. a~ DATE APPROVED ATTESTE ~~ WILLIAM G. BERG JR., CITY C ER ~ ~ jq?' .fir s ^5 ~~' ~s n ,~. .. .;~ fiti ' c ~~:r _ . ~ r;!1f t ~R~ :k=. '' try ~ K4 .-., 1, .r t;;c ~:~~z~r fti~,~.. l: _ _._~i },~rc~"u ~~~ a~ ,,~ ~. ,;~: -'„t, '_ R~ y ..:. ±: t r J ;. ;+r ' ; y_~~. ~< ~„ i' j, - i G..;~j ~, _ . -. ~~ ~= h. I ~' +1 y1.-. - 13 F_ 9 ~. * 1 ~ ~~ a." i: ,- 1~~„s~ ~-: r' i ~' k. .t~ . k,_ t ~ _- Questions for Special P&Z Commission Meeting 11-29-05 Growth & Public Funding 1.) Why doesn't growth pay for schools, fire stations and such through impact fees or some other use taxation structure? (Legislative, choice, rational, history, current trends, current activity to change etc.) 2.) How can/ does the city limit growth? 3.) What aze the reasons/ rational for not wanting to limit growth? +"~; Transaortation & Roads 4.) What tools, methods, partnership does the city use/foster with the ITD and g$~ ' Ada County to insure the needs created by Meridian's rapid growth aze '. ` ~ettin~ priority consideration in regards to road construction/ improvement ~; „k projects? '=° 5.) What is the status of the 10-mile interchange and the GARVEE bonds? ti; °`~~ Scheduled to be built? Where is it on the priority list? Earliest possible start date? Etc. 6.) What is the status of the continuation of Pine near Nola? ;~R 7.) What is the status of the downtown Meridian Traffic Plan? Timeline, scheduled to be done etc.? ~~~_. x f{, City-County-AOCI Issues 8.) What is/are the fundamental differences in developing in the city versus the county? This question relates mainly to several comments that were made during the comp plan amendment hearings regazding what people could/couldn't do with their land if the designation changed. 9.) How does area of impact designations on the comp plan influence development of property that is not eligible to annexed and will not be for sometime? 10.) If a property is eligible to be annexed into the city, can they develop in the county? 11.) What is the impact of the comprehensive plan designation on property that is not eligible to be annexed that would like to develop? s ~~, ~ ~~~ ~i ~~ 3»~ ~ . ?~ ~, 'e ~rGY TC S'~'a a` 'S _. ` ry, ~, { 8~- , ~ ~ °~'~. in ~ ~w f~~ ~~4 t~'~~s;s ~C Q~H,~ ~~t. ~'~ fi x ~' ~ s' 'r if1 r -• ~'.~ is ~~ -_ ~: 1: ~. - _ 1 # ` :*. YY .,. .n ~ u A q,. ~ ~ ~ 1. x p, y.' { rtl;~3iN iN;,~,:., y~yr.. i. L , ~~n~ ~ ~l }Li Y-i ~N ~}hJ ~• t ~ J3 i ~ ~ KC'ti~"f'y, 4 f ~ _4 ~:. r-t . , t~ v Lnl'.'~3 `F l ~i A Y 7 -~ --:: ;; ;,,,> } ; , ~. 4 F . ! L:~ Legal /Code /Process Issues 12.) If a development is denied annexation to the city what happens next? 13.) What is the recourse for a property owner whose disagrees with a comprehensive plan amendment once approved by the City Council? 14.) Under the new code, more development can be approved without coming before the commission. Does a report exist or can one be created and reported to the commission monthly, quarterly or some other timeline detailing the "State of Development" in Meridian? 15.) I would like to know when recommendations made by the commission aze not adopted or removed by the city council. Possible a "report back", could be part of the discussion above, of developments? 16.) [n the past the commission has recommended denial of a project based predominantly on the need for the other properties azound it to develop together, i.e. such as the Linder road property and the properties on the southwest corner of Ustick and Eagle, is that an acceptable reason? 17.) What is the operational definition of; not in the best interest of the city? 18.) From M. Rohm -The one item that I'd like to discuss is related to new developments. From time to time we see projects that fall within ordinance and adhere to the comprehensive plan but just don't "feel" right. I have been reluctant to recommend denial for lack of solid grounds. I'm looking for some tools to help me apply better judgment to these applications. The Penultimate Question 19.) What is the meaning of life? t ~~'~. ~~ F ~ w ~. p 1~ ~ ~vik ~1 ~'~ ~ t~, ~ '~ '1~ ~4' fa ~, { .. c Inh'~, c a I {7~?~' n } ~~ ~ ` t~iY NV ~ s . r, H ~ ~R .2 ~~~~,nR T! .uSC. ~~. ~ S ~y,,yy....,,~ ~'a~' :~~ 'N`P2wrt ~• s~ . ~ . R ~Y 7 .~~j~,+ . t~. Ri ~~' ~ T, ~~ h, . 4 ~ f Eq 4 ~~G .C .~ i ~ ~ r ~~ ~ ~` u r~ ` €~ r ~~.~ ~ ~~. <x ~~~~.."f. ti I~'Fa~'i~~~ s'~. ~ ' g 7 ~ t ~~^ Ft t f i ~ ~ r ~ yF y 4 -{{. L :Z ~ , ~~ ~ ~M ~~aY ~. k~ ~: i ¢ yY d t . f M1~yi h '6 ~ < l . . ~ ~ ~ ~i~x.dg~ ~ _ RiS t`v. ~/ .-r~ F • :_ - . ~:n ~yttr~r r , u~fi ~ - raa ° ~,~ 1 I'~ '+Y' s Sh ~ 4 f RRqq f R'~i '~ 4 3 ~~ ~ x ,.,:z.~,~ r 4~.~ s~s~~«~~~s , , ~.`,~~_~ „. r ~+J,•ti~i~. .1i ~, ~,. .r-~~~ ,. 1 Y: U, v Meridian Planning 8 Zoning November 17, 2005 Page 35 of 36 Newton-Huckabay: So moved. Moe: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? That motion carries. - ~~ MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. ":: , Item 17: Review Modification to Planning Department Application: Zaremba: The last item on our agenda, No. 17. Review modification to planning =` ~ department application and we will have a staff report. ~,,,.: .: ~-:_~~ Hood: A very brief staff report. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission. I'll ~ ~ ' just read through a little bit of the new code here regarding the application processes r~ ~~~_::" UDC-5A-362. It says: Prior to commencement of any substantive changes to the `': + application requirements, the director shall submit the changes to the Planning and Zoning Commission at a Public Healring. The director has determined that what we have ";: done, basically, with the new applications that mirror our new MDC is we have helped fi; them clean up items, some things that are spelled wrong, some things we just didn't ot`~~ carry over from the old applications. A few of them are significant. You do have a memo i<~rt'~~ on -- should have a memo from Sonya Waters for today's date just listing, basically, all ~:; of our Commission and administrative review applications. Again, just clean-up stuff, but the director did want you to become aware that we are cleaning those up in an effort to ~~ perfect them. So, probably a couple few of them will be back to you in the future with ~~;, some other changes, but they are pretty -- they are just pretty standard changes and, ~~ hopefully, makes the process a lot smoother, just some things that were inadvertently left off from the initial draft. So, I will stand for any questions you have. `- Zaremba: Commissioners, any questions? Borup: They look good to me. Zaremba: Okay. Any action you need us to take, other than to say At A Boy? Hood: Not that I'm aware of. I think that was more of a -- just an FYI type thing, so -- Newton-Huckabay: At-A-Boy. Rohm: At-A-Boy. Zaremba: Thank you very much. Okay. And reminder that we are having a special meeting on Tuesday, the 29th, starting at 6:00 p.m. and we may or may not be provided with something to eat. I'm not sure. I think we are. :~ ~~: wN~'xa 3 ~ i ~t~ ~ 1 f i ~ ~ i, .v _.y<;.;.vi".,~^~.xr,::l• S.9 •ds' '~c,.ar itF r '~„ :F. ~r~f f xa~ i+ry _ ~ ~~..~~:i~t,. •i4k ~e'#rsY,^_'~4~~"*o pat: v',~. ~rj.,~•: ~:$4t .,y- ~" 4 sj,:, ~.isr`'~F ~~ I. ti :~r .i~:>~I, i~r.~ r..~Fy~, ,~t ye ~ tl~i 6~¢r.~~+1°~# . }.•~',"~-e 4:~5 ;'i&,;~:7 x'`i~ ~,ti.Y•' r ~ ~ My:. t'iY r•r. I ' <..... _Zr` !~ "~,.a'n's":u!:ai?~L"4n;9ri?; .. vV >'`~i:~~ . I`I J. a ~... ... .f F' .. ..., .~.I'~, ~; Its ri 4 ~ ~~ ~ ~~ U F ~1~.f ~ ql. ~ ~ q ~- '~`•~. ^ !i{fir ++4 v ~ '~ 1 1 f ~ d 1 `:A~~~, it r~ _ ~ J• ~ G lu.iF .+. ~ ~ ~ ~ .' r~ ~~ fr : ~,. 3`Y ~., ~» "r4yr«~~R ~ ~ JI I ~ I ~ ! ~S '= 'JY~¢~ ~~ ~.i~ {5 4 A~ f ', 5 f r 1l~R +~_, ~- ~. ti ,,. " w~ fir; .tv ~ F~, • _., - T ~. l' x ~ ~.. r ~K~' t ~~ J, ~_ S~/. ,. -. ?r E y. ~ ~~;Y .~ L @.~:'.. ;V~ ~ . ` ~. {t r ..,~,. .., ..: *,- , 0.i.: .:,.. ~;> ~, ~,~~.~ ~,.: . #, ~~ ~.,: :.~; , [_ ~=~ b ~. ; r ~_, :~., ~;, ,,; 4 ~~,;,~: k- . "} ~t5'.:4' ~<, ~; , :~ X, Meridian Planning & Zoning November 17, 2005 Page 36 of 36 J Hood: Yeah, you will. Goodwood I have heard is what has been -- is that okay with everyone or -- Newton-Huckabay: Well, that sure beats Pizza Hut. Moe: I think now that we have a liaison, I'm sure she's going to take care of it. Zaremba: Thank you. Newton-Huckabay: There is a really very proper English word there, the liaison to something. Moe: Mr. Chairman? Zaremba: Commissioner Moe. Moe: I move we adjourn. Rohm: Second. Zaremba: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? That motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Zaremba: Thank you and good night. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:30 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) APPROVED DAVID ZAREMBA -CHAIRMAN ATTEST: I DATE APPROVED WILLIAM G. BERG, JR, CITY CLERK a ~,. :a,, } .,. .:~; Y: £. ~~ ~ ` ~ ~ '. ; k ~~ 1y. ~=. ~. S~ la ~~ >t M' y E r3C~~ i'Sr . ~~E~ l ~ ~ t v,~~ _'' ,,- , r r~'~'Ex r•. ~4 :ay L Ov^~~ £'' f ' Y4?~ ~~ ~ D Y 4~ ~~; '. s w,;. ~,~, a>c r z`%~,y kt .: 4.i ~~ ® ® ~.Y..I Questions for Special P&Z Commission Meeting 11-29-05 City ®f Nleridia~- Cit~- Clerk 9ffice Growth & Public Funding 1.) Why doesn't growth pay for schools, fire stations and such through impact fees or some other use taxation structure? (Legislative, choice, rational, history, current trends, current activity to change etc.) 2.) How can/ does the city limit growth? 3.) What are the reasons/ rational for not wanting to limit growth? a; "r~ V !~~ ~4,.' ~~, ... ~,, . . ~~: ~ ,, ~. ~: ;, Transaortation & Roads 4.) What tools, methods, partnership does the city use/foster with the ITD and Ada County to insure the needs created by Meridian's rapid growth aze getting priority consideration in regazds to road construction/ improvement projects? 5.) What is the status of the 10-mile interchange and the GARVEE bonds? Scheduled to be built? Where is it on the priority list? Eazliest possible start date? Etc. 6.) What is the status of the continuation of Pine neaz Nola,? 7.) What is the status of the downtown Meridian Traffic Plan? Timeline, scheduled to be done etc.? City-County-AOCI Issues 8.) What is/are the fundamental differences in developing in the city versus the county? This question relates mainly to several comments that were made during the comp plan amendment hearings regarding what people could/couldn't do with their land if the designation changed. 9.) How does area of impact designations on the comp plan influence development of property that is not eligible to annexed and will not be for sometime? 10.) If a property is eligible to be annexed into the city, can they develop in the county? 1 l.) What is the impact of the comprehensive plan designation on property that is not eligible to be annexed that would like to develop? p. ~ . ~r~s ti F r ~ ~ ~.r~ ~w ~~~ `~,. ~t~~~ ~~a ;~ti _ ., :~ w .~r.,~~t ~ ~,, ~,. _. h~ ri~Z N F ~ x}Y l L '~' ~ ~ ~ 3 , ~. u ~pa~Y'I,C P f ~ 4 } a ~. ~ _ y q+ 5t'~~ ~ ~ T yi y .k'T ~~ '~ ., M •#~; ~rG • ~,~ 7. b ~ b11. ~TYyt~~a 7~:~ ~ $ J a~. 1 h M' x S-e-` r 1 v ~ _ ;~~~~ ~~~ ~ ~k ~ .. ' ~ n ~ ' z. . . w~ 2 ~: " ~g H , , , tg F ht ~:L~.i J ..d '~T~ ~ ~~ ~r ~~~ik 1 ~ a; . ~ `;- ~ 5 ~t~-~.~ 1 ~, s~'.~. , ~ r ~ ~ y ~ ~~ a x ~ ~ ~ x ~ S ': _:~J. j j ~ ~~ s~ ~ 1~' ~~ ik (~'-~r ~ ~ i k V orris 1 ~ { ~'.r`'~Na u ~ ~ J 1:, ~ ~..t_ .. Questions for Special P&Z Commission Meeting 11-29-05 tt;~1t~ ®f Ni~riclian '~"'itty Cl~?r~ ®fface .w~_, ~_"` Growth & Public Funding ~. ,.. '~ '' 1.) Why doesn't growth pay for schools, fire stations and such through impact fees or some other use taxation structure? (Legislative, choice, rational, history, current trends, current activity to change etc.) f~: ~~='~~~ 2.) How can/ does the city limit growth? :~ , , ~. '' 3.) What are the reasons/ rational for not wanting to limit growth? ~,:. ~`' Transuortation & Roads ~~ : `: p { _ ; 4.) What tools, methods, partnership does the city use/foster with the ITD and ~~ ''~ Ada. County to insure the needs created by Meridian's rapid growth are x~'~~" getting priority consideration in regards to road construction/ improvement projects? ~_ ~{ "~ 5.) What is the status of the 10-mile interchange and the GARVEE bonds? ",:' Scheduled to ~ built? Where is it on the priority list? Earliest possible ~~ : ~ start date? Etc. ,, 6.) What is the status of the continuation of Pine near Nola.? 7.) What is the status of the downtown Meridian Traffic Plan? Timeline, z~`° ` scheduled to be done etc.? ' City-Count y-AOCI Issues ~ ~~° ' ` ' 8.) What is/are the fundamental differences in developing in the city versus „ - ~.~ M: the county? This question relates mainly to several comments that were made during the comp plan amendment hearings regarding what people ~~ could/couldn't do with their land if the designation changed. ,. ~~ ;. ;g '~ ~ ` .) ow does area of impact designations on the comp plan influence ~ - -_ development of property that is not eligible to annexed and will not be for t~ sometime? >: ~~, '= a?~~s 10.) If a property is eligible to be annexed into the city, can they develop in the ~~ county? 11.) What is the impact of the comprehensive plan designation on property that is not eligible to be annexed that would like to develop? ,: ~~ ~~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~` ~s.7! l f: ~ ~ ~~yy R ~~I ~ ` ~. ~'.' '+ f ~+x ... F H ~~ ~. ~ ~`EY. ui W+ k`+~~y,E ~ i r ~ s x:; ~ I~S rcz' y- ~Y ~ ?ai y. 2. ~~ Q ~ ~ i 5 .. ~7 ~{~ t J ~'1 ;<nyy ; ~~~ in r ~ r - l~* ~r c r(j ,1.•.. q f *,~{ _ 2.: '. ~r,~,y,~ t }~3 ,~ Nfi "1 ~ C ~~~ ft ~~ ~~`?t~~'m`S x 5, . t ~ r , ,~. r~ ~'y~N,~.`r. . ~ ?1_ ~ ;:-"4 ` . rf ~p~ i;4 ¢u # i f +r .,1 .~ t ~ ~'~, ? K.Z}~ n, ~ ~ < c ~, MT~ i~~ ` ~; ~: is ~ ~ . - ~ ~ : ~ ~ Y f.. :~~.: 9 1 7 n r Y ~ s; f y ,~ ~, y ~'c~' l .' f~ r~l.~~ ,~:;, ~~ <`. ~7.~k f `~ ~;~ :` ~> ~~'' .. z> (: ~. E, ?`' s: ~ ~ Lesal /Code /Process Issues 12.) If a development is denied annexation to the city what happens next? 13.) What is the recourse for a property owner whose disagrees with a comprehensive plan amendment once approved by the City Council? 14.) Under the new code, more development can be approved without coming before the commission. Does a report exist or can one be created and reported to the commission monthly, quarterly or some other timeline detailing the "State of Development" in Meridian? 15.) I would like to know when recommendations made by the commission are not adopted or removed by the city council. Possible a "report back", could ~ part of the discussion above, of developments? 16.) In the past the commission has recommended denial of a project based predominantly on the need for the other properties around it to develop together, i.e. such as the Linder road property and the properties on the southwest corner of Ustick and Eagle, is that an acceptable reason? 17.) What is the operational definition of; not in the best interest of the city? 18.) (From M. Rohm) -The one item that I'd like to discuss is related to new developments. From time to time we see projects that fall within ordinance and adhere to the comprehensive plan but just don't "feel" right. I have been reluctant to recommend denial for lack of solid grounds. I'm looking for some tools to help me apply better judgment to these applications. The Penultimate Question 19.) 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N r, ~r `~:~~~. f_;.~I - a. _,._ =r.,,T, ~. _~ ,; _, -;> ~;s ': i i_ ., -~ ~,.. ,-i r 2006-2010 ACRD Five-Year Work Program Meridian Area Projects PD=Preliminary Development Projects UF=Unfunded Roadway Projects Construction Year Proiect Total Cost 2006 Locust Grove Overpass, Overland/Franklin $6,955,000 2006 Locust Grove, Franklin/Fairview $4,362,000 2007 Overland, Linder/Meridian $4,080,000 2007 Eagle Road, Victory/Ridenbaugh Canal $2,328,000 2007 Ten Mile, Franklin/Cheny Lane $5,382,000 2008 Ten Mile, Cherry Lane/Ustick $5,062,000 2009 Linder, Franklin/LTstick $8,628,000 2009 Franklin, Touchmazk/Five Mile $8,732,000 2010 Franklin, Ten Mile/Linder $6,088,000 PD Franklin, Ten Mile/Black Cat $6,693,000 OF Downtown Meridian Transportation $ TBD Improvements (Design work in PD) OF Fairview Ave, Meridian/Locust Grove $5,230,000 OF Fairview Ave, Locust Grove/Eagle $5,230,000 OF Fairview Ave, Eagle/Cloverdale $5,230,000 Intersection Projects 2007 Ten Mile/Franklin 2007 Ten Mile/Pine 2007 Meridian/Overland 2007 Eagle/Victory 2008 Ustick/Linder 2009 Pine/Linder 2009 Meridian/Victory PD Main/Waltman/Meridian/Central Bridge Replacement 2010 Victory, 1/ E of Locust Grove Curb/Gutter/Sidewalk Projects 2007 W 1~, Washington/Cherry Lane 2008 W 8~, 1400 W. 8~/Cherry Lane ~1 ~ .~i NOV 2 9 200 pity ofllVieridian pity Clerl~ Offic® !- ~' ;'~:~ ~. ~ 'w~~ r t~ ;~.rt .~ ~ ~,: ::~: . a r ~ z1?n~ ~rre i~ rr t ~ R h S ~ ~~ ~ "{ ~ ~. ~ ~'~~~ ~'~ 4"~~ ~N ; ~ii1~"~~ ~< / N ~ _ 3 3. 1 ~ j ~ , °'(I '~aii[ ti^~ . ~,:-ir k :ri. F'.' ~ kp ~ r`-r ~J~k ~ ,~ ~ r ~ f. 4:~.'t "' ~~~~ .} ,.n ~~14 !~. }~h ~ r ~ t~,f+. fi t~~~t ~ t .~_.. "t~,'S,g' ~~`l-~~r7 aiR , ~r7,z^Lkt"4 Y'' if!A - ~~ P fib..'. „i:. , ~i ;.> };.- 4 ~r •. ',~# ~.~~ ~~~ ~, ~; ~~ )`.' Y ;~~ z ~ -:. ~ ~~ F ~. Urban Services Amendment I~OV ~ ~ ~~~~ ~tty ®~ii~eridisd Cit Clerk ®ff~le~ (All additions ate und_ All deletions are ~,) "Urban. Services Policies: The City of Meridian desires all. development within. its ,Area of Impact to be served with city services. Such services include sanitary sewer, water, ftre, Police, parks and libraries. Secondarily, the City will consider the availability and capacity of the school system, transportation facilities and stormwater facilities in any review of development within the Area of Impact. However, it is recognized that some development may precede the ability of the City, on its own, #o extend services for such ,development. Upon formal requests to the City for development that is on property not immediately serviceable with urban services, the City may ~ - consider said applications. requests foi' annexation 1YIt0 the ci limits will still ~ re{luir@ City Owned services. EICpa'C.4_ lOII Of the sanitary sewer andlor water systems maybe at the option of either the City of Meridian~or the vel er. D e o manta within the Area of Impact but outside the City limits will only be considered if the owing standards and condidon_s are aereed to by the develoverls) • .. y 1 • ~o~ment is commeted to pity oi'Meridian water and'samtar,~sewer system___ s and the extensions to and throw sand developments are constracted in conform with the once Crtv_ofMeridian i6Vater and Sewer System Master Plans im effect at the time of eve a m t• V k~=Z. An irrevocable consent to annexation is a condition of hook up to City sanitary sewer or water ~s made a deed restriction on all buildable lots and is laced as a note on all la s' - . 3. ,A11 City sewer and. water inspection and elan review fees (for the main lines) in effect ax the tune of development are paid to the City ofMeridian; - _ 4. Ada County will issue no buildin permit for said deyelopme~s unless or until the ~j a~Ixcant for such buildum vermin rnovides documentation that p~imgact fees re~nired '~ b the Ci of Mericli have been collected or ' ed b the Ci of Meridian. A written agreement between the ity of Meridian and .~1da County must be executed prior to said ~'k impact fees helps collected 5. All Bevel -initiated em ansions roved b the must a for ernes which are adiacent to existing or ousl ~ ~Y approved projects where City sewer and • water services are or will be provided. • 6. -Developer-initiated and constructed, system expansions maybe eligible for over sizYna • credits and reunbursements from latecomer hook-u fees. i , I.D.Z: "Require rural area, residential development to submit alternative development plans to ~~~~ ~ demonstrate the efficient extension of urban. services in the future (e.s. a resnbdivision plan or other Citwapyroved documentation)" i T. 1 •1 •• LL J H ~ AA i ~ Y-. ~, L Y1'-1~c~-L ~ 4 ~ ~ y /+ 11G ~~ .S ~ t. •.f: -~. ~,,..n~y ~~1'' .` ~X.'s ~ } ~ ~:. .~ ~vu~S~~Mtt"i P;fiu 7~,y~-V} ~ tfiz. ~£1 ~ , f ~ -cif T ~'~'~. St F, r. ~: ~~ }.e ~?j. ~ ~5 ,... ,i.~ r. ` ~. .~''-rM i ~~C"r Y, t)~, S~$ q ~: t i 4'~1 }A 6.~. ~~lyr - -3ti i 7,. ~;,~;,~:~~ ,,R,., . '~= r.. (1 ;~~ t' ,r ~ ~ t "~ i ti kzx! ~ ,, t ~" + r ••"t rrs 2~ Z r~;~~' f~ S j n r.~k 1. ..TS r'i _~'.: f ~?,,,; .~ }~ ~A -~::~ ~1 ":~' %~~~~ N ~, ~:~' ;,,~ ~-- ~ ` ~: z x- s fir; ~`„~.. :. S.^ _ ~% :. ~~: ~~ ~~, E°°.`':' ~~ :, >'` ~;5~ I.D.S: "Allow residential development in rural areas that are outside the Ci Area o ~ pmvided that development complies with the following star ~t~ ~'ut zns~ . Within the USPA, one single-family residenial house may be placed on a five-acre minimum lot if dry line sewer and waterlines are installed for future connection. ........:vi w waa ua . 1tIIG Ski fir anQ water 11n6 requirement where said lines are not feasible. A concept plan for roads and lots must be submitted to the Planning anai ?mining Department showin that made to allow for re-subdivision of the ro g Provisions have been Comprehensive Plan Land Use map, p p~ to an urban density, as shown in the • Within the Area, of Impact but outside the USPA, one single-family residential building y be constnlcted on a five-acre minimum lot without municipal seever and. water services being provided if Central District I~ealth Department approves private sewer and water service." ~..e I ~:lworklMlMeridiaall4ieridiau 15360Mtltcsolutio~ City Hell120031Aauadments m the July 2002 Comp Plat Revision of USDA Poficy >~'bit A Q4 0103.doc ~~~, ?~;F :~'I y ~ ~.. ~~ ',i _ , Sr F '~ ~ .. ri. .~£ ..~~. ~: F c 39r wr&y sx+ 1. r. ~ ~ ~ ~, ;` r33'iTi a- ~"?~~ x e~~4 ~ ,. ~ k` t ~~ ~ t ~ t` 4`d~iz ~~~ '~,`' +~.y y ~T.`fi f-{ "5µi 3kp'T ~~ ~~yV, ~yjn1 ~,~`: S ;`,r ~,y~.: , K 3at+spl ~ 'v~.~ ~ 33;. ~k , '' ~ -v s3 ~~~~' .1 its ~.,~ ;::$ ~:-;n h` x L~ w .ds ~~,, Vf ~~ Y F'. ~_. -~;,%: ¢~r, ~ Exhibit A-Ordinance 389 ~~ ~.. ~; L^j ::~: ~. ~ iiS; ~! :' ' <: ~~:. ".'-, .. „ F ~~='' . ~~~~ ~~ n;= . ~, :-: f: ~ "`' 'n'~;ti. ~`.` 5m, : ., ~;..: <,.. §.. ~A.' `.j "Y ~k'±~K~ ~.; 1A-33 RSW Subdivision r,~ 25 acre n~uninlumlots ~ Redevelopment plan lots ;Building envelopes t 3 g '~ i" ,(~ tt j; :i ~x 1, ~..:1~~ y ~. ~ ..J-y, # ~~tfi _i Cep ~ ;~ ~~~ ~M s~, =s , ~~ ;-.~~." 6~ ''' f . r.'~C Y. °''* > Mf ~ '~~ - 1 e -~' r y't 4 `4 .; E' ry ,145± ~ ~ ~~ T d 3. 4~ ,Lt ~,~... _ L gg Yom. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ P S~t'g~t~. y ~ ~j .} ..~Y T ~ y ~°,a ~e4 t ~ - _ m ~ e f{ ,, ~r .~t'',1.. "~f~'.gl ~ '- ~ST ' r ~ :~r x?Y -1 br "h~~ ~ ~~ t EG~~ ~ ,~ ,,r t1 ~ r_i. B~`~µ~ n ~• t ~~_';Y Yep 33 '' -~_ X '~+~ a ~r ~ s~ ,r A` 4,: t ~~-~. y. ~ 1 1 fv ~ Figure 6: Light Trespass Figure 7: RUT and RSW Cluster Subdivision (Example) RSW Cluster Subdivision r,~ Property boundary (13.5 acres) r ~ 1.0 acre m?n~mum lots I RUT Quster Subdivision ~ r,~Property boundary (20 acres) I r_~ 1.0 acre minimum lots I I I I Figure 8: RSW Subdivision Sketch Plat (Example) ~_ _ Exhib~A-Ordinance 389 '~ r.'~'K.; . ~ 4. Upon determination by the Director that the farm development right is in _ -; i .~~ ~ D. conformance with this section, a zoning certificate. shall be issued. Standards. ~~ it 4'~ k '~ ~,- , ~ , ~ .:~ r~ z;~; ~. ;`; :, ~,~:. ~: ;~6~ 1. The farm development right parcel shall meet the dimensional standards for a rural residence as established by Table 8-2A-2. 2. Access and frontage shall be as required by Section 8-4A 3 of this Title. 3. if the qualifying property has more than 1 permanent dwelling, the farm development right parcel shall contain one of the extra dwellings. This standard shall not apply to temporary living quarters (see Section 8-5-3.113 of this Title). 4. The proposed fans development right division shall maximize to the greatest extent possible the preservation of prime agricultural soils. .. 5. The farm development right parcel shall be located on the portion of the properly that causes the least disruption of agriculture on the remainder of the qualifying property while still meeting the standards of this Section. 6. As part of the application, an applicant may request an increase in property size to a ma~amum of 2.5 acres to accommodate one of the following: a. Additional property is needed to support an individual wastewater treatment system; or b. The farm development right parcel separates an existing dwelling (either principal permitted or other) from the qualifying property (Section 8- 4A 12 of this Title), and such dwelling cannot obtain proper street frontage or setback requirements unless granted a larger property size. 7. An applicant may also request an increase in property size when the property under consideration for the farm development right parcel is ` ~'~ separated by a barrier that prevents the use of the qualifying property as one unit. 8-2A-6: NON-FARM SUBDMSION: A. Purpose. The purpose of the non farm subdivision is to allow limited rural residential development where it will be compatible with existing uses in the vicinity. The purpose is also to provide standards to cluster rural residential development on a portion of a properly in order to: 1. Create open space and trails; and/or i ., s _ ,~ . ~ ~~~ ~~t ~~ ~ r ,~. ~~~ H) _•~. ,.Z z. ~._ t y;Y ~,, ~r~~, y_ ~ `~: i - ~:.~ 4 a ~i ~~~ ~ i .; F,s~ 7 ~ tF~wv >k~ .~,. i 4 F :.. y~l?~ ~~'~tS ~:S-. +r ~. ~. ljr ; ~y < Y T 3 ~ }. 2} t M 1.~:._ho~. ~ -b ~' 'k 4' j~'_. i ~ } 131t #, ~~,s 3 'Ft' } -fit t yc, . ,. ~ P ~tY.. ~ .~,~T:;. is a•;an_ t~yyv'. ~~. 4 `_ ~ .r~.. r `-~~. irk ~'F kk~. ~'~r yy 'r~~. ~~'hhh~t~t~tnnn y ...qAAA~ 1 iii.; S~jY~~~11 y,. a. -, Y ~ to t~~ ~r Y.~'~ ~,. u ~4. ~ ~i r~•a 6 ~:.'~ ~l ^t{= 4~ B. C. F~chib~A-Ordinance 389 2. Preserve prime agricultural lands, rangelands, wildlife management areas, scenic resources, historic resources, cultural resources, steep slopes, ridgelines, canyon rims, benches, wetlands, riparian corridors, ponds, and other natural, historic, or cultural resources of the County. Applicability. This regulation shall apply to any property that meets the following criteria: 1. The property is within the Rural Residential (RR) District; 2. The properly is a minimum of 20 acres of contiguous land; and Process. -; 1. Application. An application and fees for a preliminary plat, as set forth in Chapter 7, Article A of this Title; shall be submitted to the Director on forms '~"-''' provided by the Development Services Department. 2. Standards. The sketch plat and/or preliminary plat shall be reviewed subject to the standards of Section 8-2A 6D and the standards for subdivisions as set forth in Chapter 6 of this Title. _:,~~ ,, t ti~ ~~:r ~~ '' w _: ~._ ?: ,.:' ~~ :'!~ '}~~AY~3 '~4 ~,;: ~~ c~ D. 3. Required Findings. In addition to the findings required for a preliminary plat, the Commission and/or Board shall make the following findings: a. The proposed non farm subdivision meets the applicability requirements of Section 8-2A-6B of this Title; and b. The proposed non-farm subdivision complies with standards of Section 8-2A-6D of this Title. Standards. 1. The base density in the rural residential base district is one dwelling unit per 10 acres. A density bonus may be approved for non farm subdivisions in exchange for clustering lots and/or for providing open space. The density bonus shall allow a total density of 2 dwelling units per 10 acres. 2. The residential lots shall meet the dimensional standards for a rural residence as established by Table 8-2A-2, except as follows: residential lots that have an irrigation right shall have a maximum lot size of 1 acre. `'~~~~ 3. All proposed residential lots and other approved uses must have an adequate water supply as provided for in Section 8-4A-23 of this Titie. Non- farm subdivisions with 10 or more residential lots shall provide a community <'~~: well. The Director may recommend approval of an alternative water supply ;;..~ system when 1) the overall design, as proposed by the applicant, meets or - ~~'` exceeds the intent and requirements of this Section and shall not be .5R ;a !~-~ ` ^::. JP~f a~ i~' ~ ~.. C ~ P ~ N`~ ~i ~r a ~ ~ _ ~~~ ' ~ i . 3: fir, '. k ~.~,4'~. 3 _ ,.~ ~ ~:: ~ ~ E A. ~ ~. ~b ~i ~~~ 1~ ti +•.~r ~ 4~~ ~~ r ,~ 4' iii r ~ ra .~ ~ ~, ~ur~~i;z~~3 ~ j:~ ~ _. ' ! t ' ~; s~ ..k~ n _, S .. ,}N3 f i ~ ~ a x.:3~ a~ i 1 ~:. Y .i..,5- , y S ~. ~ ~~ yy ff ~4u~~ l ~~ ' --` ~'. ~~'+` ~ , ~ ~1 ~~ ~ ,~~,yy yy ~~ J~~~pkli '~. '1 ` ~ ~? ~ ~ ~y F y. i I 4 y. t 2 7'p~ ~ .. _: 5~' .:~~~ ~fi,. ~. .~ `,~~FF. ~: ~..,.~. ~~~ x~ ~~ ~, ~:`: ~: ;< ~~;~ F:=. ~., ~_ ~:~ Exhibi~A-Ordinance 389 detrimental to the public health, safety, and welfare and 2) where the strict application of this standard will create an undue hardship due to characteristics of the site including, but not limited to, geologic impediments. 4. All proposed residential lots and other approved uses must connect to a ~~ community sewage disposal system as herein defined. 5. Access and frontage shall be as required by Section 8-4A-3 of this Title. 6. The design of open space lots shall comply with the standards for dedicated open space in Chapter 4, Article J of this Title. Where prime agricultural soils, as herein defined, are present on the property, the applicant is encouraged to locate the prime agricultural soils on the open space lot. 7. The design of lots within the developable area shall comply with the following standards: a. Non-farm subdivisions with less than 10 residential lots may have two development areas. b. For non-farm subdivisions with 10 or more residential lots, there may be up to three development areas. An applicant may request additional development areas when the following findings can be made: i. The need for additional development areas is based on specific site constraints and/or opportunities; and ii. The overall design is consistent with Section 8-4J-41. c. Within a development area, each residential lot shall share at least 100 feet of property line with another residential lot. This standard shall not be deemed as prohibiting a development area with a single residential lot. 8. The proposed non-farm subdivision shall protect all gravity flow irrigation systems. 9. The Director may approve, or recommend approval of, an alternative lot configuration when the overall design, as proposed by the applicant, meets or exceeds the intent and the requirements of this Article and shall not be detrimental to the public health, safety, and welfare. 10. If the proposed residential lots are within an animal feeding operation .. (AFO) sphere of influence as set forth in Section 8-5-3.62, a note shall be ::.placed on the plat and on the deed of each lot noting the proximity to the AFO. ~- _~ ~- 1 ' 't ~n*'. y ~, ~ ,r ~ y~, 1 k~ 7yY *ar7.~~1„ ~. p y ."R i ~ ~.Ht ~Sk?T -..<_{~ ~ ~ , ~ ~ i , r. T i~•y ,~.. :a T ~'~'t r .k Y -4,! y ~'Sroy~t, ~-Y;,,, ;K tip ~~es~. ; ;,~;..' s a. ~# 4 j b g ~~, ~ ,. F ~ S j} Y?~ i ~ ~ 3' -`v4 ~{~~~~"'tfF pie t S ~Y 7. ~ 4) i L K i ~~ 11~~+tt a ~" ~ T t-:r Ee'' . ~, Y ~ { . . S~ K j ~~ ~~~ ~ ~i. ., j i ~ ~. S i l~ j~1 ~. &~~~F~F +4'F xn. ~~ $'f P ~ t ~ ~ f ~ s r.~Ja~ ~~ ~ ~ K lv 3 k - a S F ~~ ~ 1 ~ ~ ar ~~ :: ~v 't i~~ ~ .. ~-:~ F .., '~' ~'3,:~ t~~ ~,~ .... ~" ~. :~ a ~: `; e~ ~. ~ f.,' 11 F ~~ ..; _~~: ~. ~ ~ .~~. h' < } f z m _ ~; '~ S' _ ~" 3.' 1 '7 ~ ~ ~ ~ fi . ~ Y fG I , _ , ; A -. i y. 'tt i i' n.~: ~, ~'f- ~~.; . ~~. ~ - -°,:. ~ _ _~ ~Exhib A-Ordinance 389 w~~ ~ ,,; ` 11. A note shall be placed on the plat and on the deed of each lot noting that ~ ~ - ' the individual lot owner shall connect to a municipal sewa e collection and ~; , ;^ g treatment facility when reasonably available. ~~ ~` , ~ E. Additional application requirements for non farm subdivisions that involve ~ ,_,~, 640 acres or more of property: 1. General land use patterns on-site and within a mini mum of one mile of the ~'~'~ "' ~~ -~~ non-farm subdivision site. ~~ 2. The natural features analysis, as set forth in Section 8-4A-14 of this Title, shall include a description of the impact of the project on area groundwater ~ ~ ~. quality. ~~~li;~ 3. Public services and utilities plan describing and depicting the location and type of electric service, natural gas service, storm drainage and flood control ' ~: ~~ systems, wastewater treatment and collection, water service, irrigation, telephone and television cable service, public safety services, and schools. Y~ ` 4. Circulation plan depicting location, design, and dimensions for the various ~y ° ~; .: ' types of streets, trails, and paths. ;:,.b '~' ~ ` ~` 5. Dedicated open space plan depicting both active and passive recreation ' ~` areas and pedestrian, equestrian, and bicycle trails. ~ „ ~ 6. A phasing plan indicating the sequence of development and anticipated {,.: commencement and completion times of each phase., The phasing plan shall indicate anticipated population levels and essential public services to _ serve the anticipated population of that phase. Essential public services ;.~,: shall include, but not limited to: utilities, circulation, open space, landscaping ~_ and other public improvements. : i `: 7. The applicant shall submit a determination by the Community Planning .Association of Southwest Idaho on whether the proposed project shall ~ ~' necessitate an update to the adopted regional transportation plan. The Board may require the applicant to fund the cost f u ~ : o any necessary pdate to i the regional transportation plan as a provision of a development agreement : , ti~,.,`$ -~ as set forth in Section 8-7C-2A of this Titre. i ~~ r~ ~ ~7t~ j <s?. _ I i ~'. .~ I ~° w' 4;w~~~ t S ' k.,:, ~ r= 2A-9 ;~ ++: i;! r.i ;' 7F a %Pi '. s t ~- t 7'~. ~ E ~'r e-,'b'e ~ ~1'~ { fi ~ `' ..~.s# 5.. .; Eit Y t ~, 7- }~~, t~' ,y~ F t < ~ ~ ~~' t X ~k. k ~H ~r.~3 k ~ c'.~ t i^ ~'$7? ~ ~~ y 3~ x~ ~~r .M , ?~: '`~~ 1~ r -_- ~a1 _ F ~S~ L`, rk.'a. ~-.t 5# i,+?i Y , ' ~ ~t Y. r~ a r4 ~ f/ 1 ~ +, ~ y ~.. . v.f~l~ V, }'t 45~'~ k "' ,..~ i1 . 4 ~". ~; . :,, '3 ", u ~' ~~~I "~~. _ . 4?' ~, ~:-.~~: G:- -< ~; z'; .. ~- r' ~: ~, ~; ..;: ,. ~.. ~- ~r -;. .~~ ., , ~~ :_ Exhibit A-Ordinance 389 CHAPTER 2 BASE DISTRICT REGULATIONS ARTICLE B. RESIDENTIAL BASE DISTRICTS SECTIONS: 8-2B-1: PURPOSE 8-26-2: GENERAL REQUIREMENTS 8-2B-3: ALLOWED USES 8-2B-4: DIMENSIONAL STANDARDS 8-2B-5: ZERO LOT LINE SETBACK DEVELOPMENT 8-2B-6: RUT AND RSW CLUSTER SUBDIVISION 8-26-7: RUT AND RSW SUBDIVISION 8-28-1: PURPOSE: The purpose of this Article is to implement the applicable comprehensive plans within Areas of City Impact. These base districts are intended to provide appropriate density for residential development based on the availability of essential public services, the surrounding land uses, and the applicable comprehensive plan designation. The purpose statements of the individual residential base districts are as follows: A. RURAL-URBAN TRANSITIONAL (RUT) DISTRICT: 1. Provide standards and regulations for the development of property within ,areas of city impact, except for the Foothills Planning Areas designated in the Boise City Comprehensive Plan within the Boise Area of City Impact, that may not presently be served by urban services, consistent with the goals and policies of the applicable city comprehensive plan. The maximum density shall not exceed 1 dwelling unit per 5 acres; 2. Allow agriculture and rural residential uses to continue within areas of city impact until urban services are extended; 3. Provide design standards that shall permit redevelopment of property to higher densities when urban services are extended; and 4. Limit new agricultural uses within the areas of city impact to those that shall not significantly impact nearby urbanizing areas with noise, odor, dust, or other nuisances normally related to more intensive farm uses, such as livestock confinement facilities with 301 or more animal units. This Article, however, shall in no way preclude the continued use of properties within these areas for agriculture. 26-1 `~~ , t? ~ 2 ~~ ~~ ~~ ~' ~... ~~ ~~'',S~ P+* .} « '~ , r s ;'~ 1~` ~ c . ~~k cF rx3`' i r~'Y/ ~ - ~ "~~ s ~ ; ~'ti °~ ;y, a yam.. -i ;- ~K ~ ~ ~. v ~~ ~~f ~T ', a. r k r ~; 6w ~ y _ M~!' ~~~'R fK s' «w l i -1} - '~(~)' ~4'a ~~ 'ifr.d ~i .. y,r,;r a ~~; ~: d it~u9 ~~~ n34.~ -e ~~, Y ~ ~T ~~ z ,:, ` ;' ~~ ~~. t~ xY. ~} .;its, ~ ~ 4'. r ~ ~; ~~~~ r . _.. , T N "': N' i ~~ z . ,:; u y`t. ~s;,. k~± ~. ;a iE~ Fa~., ~_i ~~ . ~= qr 3;~:M:~ ~; ~F' M1~ ~~'-. ~~i '~.: 'k• ,:; Exhibi~-Ordinance 389 8_2g_5; ZERO LOT LINE SETBACK DEVELOPMENT: Zero lot line development may be allowed in the R6, R8, R12, and R20 districts. For multiple zero lot line setbacks, an applicant may apply for a reduced setback requirements concurrent with a preliminary plat application subject to the following standards: A. The preliminary and final plats shall designate a building envelope for each property with a zero lot line or abutting a zero lot line setback. B. In no case shall a zero lot line setback be allowed adjacent to a property line that is not part of the subdivision. C. Within the R12 and R20 districts, no lot shall have more than 2 zero lot line setbacks. p. Within the R6 and R8 districts, no lot shall have more than 1 zero lot line setback. 8-26-6: RUT AND RSW CLUSTER SUBDIVISION: A. Purpose. This regulation allows owners of qualifying properties in the Rural- Urban Transition District or Southwest Community Residential District to create a limited number of clustered residential lots before urban services are available. The intent is to: 1) create a means whereby farm owners may sell off a small portion of their property before urban services are available while still enabling agricultural production as an interim use and 2) cluster such residential lots on a portion of the properly to facilitate redevelopment of the remainder lot. B. ~ Applicability. This regulation shall apply to any property that meets the following criteria: 1. The property is within the Rural-Urban Transition District or Southwest Community Residential District; 2. The qualifying property has a minimum of 250 feet of frontage along a public street; and 3. The applicant proposes a density that does not exceed the standard in Section 8-2B-1A and Section 8-2B-16 of this Title as applicable. C. Process. 1. Application. A preliminary plat application and fees, as set forth in Chapter 7, Article A of this Title, shall be submitted to the Director on forms provided by the Development Services Department. i, ~~! :~r ~+ ~ ~~:.. Y.' 1. ~~ 4,' ,~.~;.. k~ ~~ f ri ' ~ ~ ,~ :, `s e t ,~ t ~''' {~ ~'~ ~~~ F~~~d'~' 1 i e;. ± ~ ~? .' G nth tJS$~Y, ~~ 4 . ~ ~ ~~ ~ E 3 y '~ ~~ 1 ~.>~ j t ~~. ja ~ 3 4 ~ ~'~ ~ S It ~~ 4 } ~ }9i( t~r 1` '~ .'. 0~ ~ ~ ~ ~4~ C f .Y 'i •'SD'~'•,p 1 ~ ~ki rc ~ 1 i {{ ~ '~, s i ,;c>t%its a rs x ~ r •~ ~ rry li ,~. ~ ,~' ;ti iIF x? p ~_~ .I„ `` f iv 4 1~,j~.~, ~~ .i:S _ i t . M1'~ir ~. 5i ~, 4°: 1 F ~ ~' ~ 389 di it A O ~_ '` W. r nance - F ~: ~-s ~~~~~ ~ ~ 2. Standards. The preliminary plat shall be reviewed subject to the standards -- of Section 8-ZB-6D of this Title and the standards for subdivisions as set r '' forth in Chapter 6 of this Title. F ~ ' 3. Required Findings. In addition to the findings required for a preliminary plat, the Commission and/or Board shall make the following findings: a. The ro osed subdivision shall not create undue adverse im acts P P P ~`~° ~ to adjacent agriculture; b. If the qualifying property is currently used for agriculture, the t ~ ` proposed subdivision shall maximize, to the extent possible, the continuation ~~` " ~ of such use on the remainder lot; and c. The proposed subdivision protects all gravity flow irrigation s' ~~ C systems to the remainder lot. ' i, 3 _. ~ ~, ~: ~- ~., D. Standards. 1. The residential lots shall meet the dimensional standards for cluster lots noted in Table 8-2B-2. See also Figure 7, Section 8-1A-2 of this Title. .~ : ~ a. The minimum residential lot size for dwellin s on individual 9 . sewage disposal systems shall be 1.0 acre. The ma~arnum residential lot ~ ~~'~ size shall be 1.25 acres. y~ W, ~`~`' . b. Reduced property size standards may be approved when the ., `'" applicant can demonstrate the following: 1) the property size and ~~ . dimensional standards comply with the applicable comprehensive plan, and "~: ~ 2) a community sewage disposal system shall serve the lots. F ' ~ ~~~_ 2. A community sewage disposal system shall serve any cluster subdivision : :. or each dwelling shall be required to plumb the house for connection to a ~' -:< municipal sewer system. ~:~~ ~~ t .~ 3. Access and frontage for all residential lots shall be as required by Section r s~e.o_~ ~f~bis ~iti~, ~; ~~ ~' 4. The subdivision plat shall note the remainder lot as dedicated open space ` ''~ p p rty is annexed to a city or obtains a zoning oroiinance map until the ro e ;,.~*. ~:;- F t., amendment. Allowed dedicated open space uses shall be as specked in ` ~, Section 8-4J-3C of this Title. }~' '`~ -- 5. The subdivision plat shall preserve 2 means of future access to the °"` ~ ` ~ remainder lot. Such access shall be a dedicated easement or a minimum of ~` 125 feet of street frontage for each access point. If the qualifying properly has frontage on two or more streets, at least two streets shall maintain a ~~' ~ ;~: means of future access as noted above. ~'-'',', 2B-9 ~~ ;;F~ F -- ^'7' 4 ~~E r a i ~~' " yr~r r, ~~ ~ i , ~"` r~~ir~~ s'~~ ;f~ ' . ~eza~~i stiff f,~, ~1t Y{~1 55 {{ F { t.y ~V ~y~{ Y ~yl , ~~ 'k YT) ~~ t J .~ + ~ ~ - 'f ~r1s ~ '~ z 5 y ~ ~ ~ ~ . y~ . ~~ ?~ 4 E r~ - y'~. L ~ 'y JA'~[yJ i ~ t 4 ~'C' { t ~+. ~'„ ! y~' F j * j`' ,'! ~~ S .~ ~'t i's: i h- . .y a ~f 7F ~t~ t ;~~ ~~ f ..::~v ~,5 a `r~. e ~3 t ? a s.j F Y}' k "1, J `~~ ~t 4 ~ 5'1 t k 4 ..! {; ,I~ f , i ~~ .; h ~7 ra tt ' ~ ti x!+R: ,: t - ~~ y ;1 ti: .. j • bb 1 _ ~~ ~' i j '~~'~~ C a ~~.. Y_ ~u tx n3: ~` ., 1 F~chibit A-Ordinance 389 ~,_~,I i~~~~p' 'N ~.~, ~, ,: ~~,.>='' ~r ~k' 6. All proposed residential lots shall be able to provide potable water and adequate sewage facilities as provided for in Section 8-4A-23 and Section 8- 4A 22 of this Title respectively. 8 2B-7: RUT AND RSW SUBDIVISION: A. Purpose. This regulation allows owners of qualifying properties in the Rurai- Urban Transition District or Southwest Community Residential District to create a limited number of residential lots. The intent is to facilitate redevelopment of the property at some future time by requiring a sketch plat of such development. B. Applicability. This regulation shall apply to any property that meets all the following .criteria: 1. The property is within the Rural-Urban Transition (RUT) District or Southwest Community Residential (RSW) District; 2. The qualifying property has a minimum 250 feet of frontage along a public street; and ' 3. The applicant proposes a density that does not exceed the standard in Section 8-26-1A and Section 8-2B-1B of this Title as applicable. C. Process. 1. Application. A sketch plat and preliminary plat application and fees, as set forth in Chapter 7, Article A of this Title, shall be submitted to the Director on forms provided by the Development Services Department. 2. Standards. The sketch plat and preliminary plat shall be reviewed subject to the standards of Section 8-2B-7D of this Title and the standards for subdivisions as set forth in Chapter 6 of this True. 3. Required Findings. In addition to the findings required for a preliminary plat, the Commission and/or Board shall make the following findings: a. The location of lots provides future locations for urban streets and allows interconnection of development on the property or adjacent properties; and b. The proposed subdivision protects all gravity flow irrigation systems. D. Standards. ~ 4 ~ ',~' 1 '4~'k.. t , .?'1 ~ rd M ~ :..,s`~ 'g.~ i~ _i ,:.. ,a~'"~~~ f'"_ ..~ _ _ ~ ~E P` t ~rv3~~ `( .4 s ~ ~'~' u :e ~ t~ a~"~: ~t ~ ~~ ~ # 4 ~ ~ a, ST , ~ f T u Sxy o-vr ~' t, ~h~~~h ~ ~ «h/F ~ ' y. T ~~ .. dry ~ ~ 4 ~1 t =}:. t x'~ t ~ ~~~l~~u tx,~ _~-~.~t ~~ ~a>'~ ~R sS {'~'a~ -~ ff.'s: <-e ~~h ; •t~ 'b e„ tit ;'~ ~~~ ~ ? -. k ~ ~~ 1 ~ ~' l~ •. ~ ` Mr V~ `ti ,~. a~ t. :~y,rZy . ~3 S 1:} Y „;r ': .{ ~~ ~ ti ~th1~^ t ~~~ n.'~„ t r': t .g.. i f. ~ ~ i i YJ~, n~ _ ~ f L S~ ~~ ; .. ^4L e~j ~'-S'~~ ~_ V £ s ~ ~` ~~.~ ~. ~. ~ ~. " ~:: ~, ~ ~r~. ~ _ ~:~ ~ ~ fY ,^ J } F ~,;~~ `,~ ~1 `~' . ~~~.`_ Y *'4~d i:~ C;NS'~ 2~'k E cr L' ,~ ~~ „° ~ Y{Y 3 'G 7 _ ~r~' ~t~ ~~ ~. ~~ ~`' . .~~ ~ k ~ 7' r a W., 4 rF x ~ . yr' ~ S l~ s ~ { 4t Y C~ ~` I ~, c-~ ah ~ t x Y r _~, s ». ; < n h ~'~. i ~a-•~ ~y. i --,{~ z ,, {. r.~ ~ ~~~. t fP: ~: ;, _~ , _,: u=``., ~> ,, ' ` ~~ i~~a~ ;Y .. .:~~, bit A-Ordinance 3 89 2. Access and frontage for all residential lots shall be as required by Section 8-4A-3 of this Title. 3. Municipal wastewater collection and treatment systems shall be provided to subdivisions in the RSW base district. 4. The applicant shall submit and receive approval of a sketch plat that demonstrates subdivision development at the density proposed in the applicable comprehensive plan. Where the applicable comprehensive plan does not indicate an urban density for development, the minimum density as shown on the sketch plat shall be 3 dwelling units per acre. 5. The approved sketch plat shall be recorded with the Ada County Recorder's Office. Once a sketch plat is approved and recorded, the applicant or owner may submit a preliminary plat that accommodates and/or combines the. sketch plat lots to meet the minimum property size for that base district as shown in Figure 8, Section 8-1A-2 of this Title. I 6. Each preliminary plat lot shall designate a building envelope. Such envelope shall be solely within one of the sketch plat lots and shall meet the setback standards from the sketch plat property boundaries as specified in ~ Table &28-3. Such building envelopes shall be designated on the final plat. Table 8-26-3 Building Envelope Setbacks for RUT or RSW Subdivision Preliminary Plat ""' "`°""°' "' Setback from Sketch Plat Lot Setback (feet) from: An ro fine on an arterial or collector street 30 Front ro line on other roadwa ~ 25 Interior side ro line 10 Side. ro ~ line on other road 20 Rear ro line 2U Note: ~ For the purses of his section, the term roadway shall include any erasting or planned public right-of-ways and private roads as designated on the sketch plat 2B-11 ;; ;~ ~ yµ ~:. ,. ., f /yt 5 Y.. ~ i'r .r a ' a ~ ~ s ~ t` . ~.,, ~ 3a~7 c`~y~ rti ~ +J.j j1 f.fn ~y r `F 4 `+ Wi' ti ~ , ,}~ r-: ~t '' ° 4 ~ ~ i ~~~ 2g r ~ ~r~ ~ :f,~~ ,~ ~ ~~, ~. ~- F~ r F ,r:~ •~ ~y. }r yy '~ ~s ..{ G~ rfi'~ S ,,''',1 4 ~~'~r~N f ~ i#~~.. ~4 Y a ' ,~ _4 't ~ ~~ ` ,s~'~' T .f i< .: t - t `> 4= ~~a ~'+~,~ r { ~ 1 '~C~~a"#rf ~, T~ C~ f, ti ~t3~*~kY~ ~ z 4 V u