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2006 01-31~, `"' ~;' CITY OF MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL AND PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION JOINT SPECIAL WORKSHOP /MEETING AGENDA ,~ Tuesday, January 31, 2006, at 6:00 p.m. Meridian City Police Department - Upstairs Training Room 1401 East Watertower Meridian, Idaho "~'"`' 1. Roll-call Attendance: a ~` ~ ~~ X Shaun Wardle O Joe Borton X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird "~ X Mayor Tammy de Weerd ~~.~~ ~~ X Wendy Newton-Huckabay X David Moe ' ~~" X Keith Borup X David Zaremba ~~ ~ X Chairman Michael Rohm 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Approve `_. 3. Introductions: ~~~~~= 4. General Discussion Concerning the Unified Development Code: -.: Y . tt _• 5. Adjournment at 8:00 pm. ~~ ~ Meridian City Council and Planning & Zoning Commission Joint Special Workshop /Meeting Agenda "' January 31, 2006 -Page 1 of 1 ''' All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. s~_ ~.,~. 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Meridian City Council & Planning & Zoning Commission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 The Meridian City Council and Planning and Zoning Commission Joint Workshop Meeting was called to order at 6:40 P.M. on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 at the Meridian Police Department by President Councilman Shaun Wardle. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle, and Charlie Rountree. Members Absent: Joe Borton. Staff Present: Anna Canning, Craig Hood, Steve Siddoway, Bill Nary, Bill Musser, Michael Cole, Bruce Freckleton, Joe Silva, Ron Anderson and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: Roll call. X Shaun Wardle O Joe Borton X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird X Mayor Tammy de Weerd X Wendy Newton-Huckabay X David Moe O Keith Borup X David Zaremba X Chairman Michael Rohm Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we approve the agenda as published. Rountree: Second. Wardle: It's been moved and seconded to approve the agenda. All in favor. THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Item 3. Introductions: Wardle: Next item is introductions. t,. ~.~ ',+ ® ._ . ~~'"t- iv1~~ b Meridian City Council & Pt~~ommission Joint Workshop o January 31, 2006 Page 2 of 37 Berg: You know, Mr. President, it was more important for Joe to be here since he was the new person to be introduced to some of the faces of the Commission, but I don't know if anybody else - Wardle: Anna? Canning: Mr. President - Hood: I have changed my name recently. De Weerd: Would you introduce Caleb. Canning: I will. This is Caleb Hood, our new current Planning Manager, formally known as Craig Hood. I am not sure that all of the Council members have gotten an opportunity to meet Caleb, but I know you all know of his very fine staff reports. Moe: What do you mean by new current? Canning: Okay, well we structured the department to have two (inaudible) so he is the new current Planning Manager. De Weerd: I know, what does that mean? Wardle: Same great service, new name. Canning: That's right. (Inaudible discussion) Item 4. General Discussion Concerning the Unified Development Code: Wardle: With that, I am going to move to Item 4, which is our general discussion concerning the Unified Development Code. Each of you should have the discussion outlined, if you don't I believe we have additional copies, correct, Mr. Berg? I will begin with a generalized discussion and then I am really going to lean on Anna to help us kind of walk through this because she bridges both the City Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission with her staff and certainly with herself. Anna do you want to kick this off? Canning: Sure. I guess the first question for you all is kind of in general how do you feel that the UDC is going. Now, obviously we don't have enough time to go into minor details, but if there are big sections that you think aren't working and you want to see them come back to you in some form, then I would be happy to - I left room for notes for everybody that if for some reason you just want to write i ~~.~ n t~ `y ;c ,; ~._ Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint Workshop r`O January 31, 2006 Page 3 of 37 me a note, if we don't have time to discuss all the issues, but we can get copies of those notes and I can just work off the summary and take it all back to you at all your respective meetings and talk about them. But, in general we have been getting pretty positive feedback on the Unified Development Code. There are little things that need tweaking here and there and we do have our first amendment that is in the pipeline. It goes to Planning Commission on Thursday and then it will come up to Council on Tuesday. It will come up about a month later to Council. You have gotten some testimony from the Fire Department, there was a little bit of misunderstanding about what was being discussed today. There some testimony regarding that application, but we won't be talking about it tonight (inaudible------------------). Other than that, I would welcome any thoughts that folks might have on the structure or how it is going. Zaremba: I have a question. I would say for myself that it is working very well. My question would be is how comfortable is staff when working with the new UDC and are we getting any pushback from developers? Canning: I haven't heard any pushback so far. The only one I heard it on is more projects were -the UDC changed the way we measure setbacks from going from property line to back sidewalk because it is an easy reference for folks. There was some projects that were platted where the sidewalk is on our side of the properly line and we are getting complaints about that. Sometimes people are a foot short. Sometimes people are five feet short. We are going to need to do some variances to accommodate for those folks, but all in all I think the Building Department has gotten pretty positive feedback in that it is much easier for them to understand where they need to measure it from that and you will get a bunch more (inaudible-------). That is the biggest (inaudible) that I am aware of that we have gotten the situation (inaudible---------------------). Can you think of anything else? Hood: I can't think of anything else. I mean it is a learning process and I am still getting familiar with it myself and everyday I feel more and more comfortable with it, so I think it's a good tool with these cleanups and I imagine we will be seeing more that has to be amended and cleaned up, but I am getting used to it. (Inaudible ----------) people are being more receptive to the new rules for (inaudible). Canning: There is also a little perspective for folks that are used to this kind of developments (inaudible-------------). People that say, well I just want a different setback. Well, no, we don't do that anymore, so I mean we are getting a little (inaudible) from them, but not much. Once they work with it and realize that the standards are reasonable, doable (inaudible----------------) they are fine. Wardle: I think for the most part some of the things that I have seen out of the UDC are some of the more technical matters that were brought forth to the Planning and Zoning Commission and to the City Council are really staff level, <;~:r :~ !~4 n~ ~}. . ~, ;:; -; ~, `; i ,~; :~ ,;r n; J: rs; ~:2,~ ~~,: ~: ~_ ~: t~;: ,{ro. 'R~_ >;~~- Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint Workshop / January 31, 2006 Page 4 of 37 sort of review items with the applicant and engineer or representative or expert representative are really being handled much better at that staff level in trying to completely redesign a project that someone (inaudible--------). I think both the development community and public Planning and Zoning level, certainly - my experience at the Council level has made it a little easier transition and to allow staff to process those much more quickly than if they were in the public hearing process. So, that is one of the positives that I have heard. One of the more learning environment sort of things is that there are people that have been developing and doing projects in Meridian for a number of years, this is a change for them and change for most of us is sort of difficult and so I think the staff might be experiencing some of those options that were available and aren't now. don't know that that have brought really anything, has it Anna? Canning: No that hasn't. Most of the amendments we are bringing to you are non-substituted nature, except for one item that we said we would bring that to you - (inaudible-----------) like a "the" here or an "and" here - De Weerd: I guess those substantives is that there has been a couple of things that have come up at City Council such as the model home, trailer structures or sells trailers - Canning: That one didn't make it into this amendment. I had submitted this amendment before that issue came up. But, I am keeping a running file and every four months or so I think you will see an amendment till we get all the kinks worked out, which is my plan. About every four months. De Weerd: And as well the development agreement with CUP revolves. Canning: That is a good segway to our next discussion -- one of the things that I purposefully left out of the UDC was any mention to development agreements. One because I saw how -once it gets into that section among our code, it all is subject to the same public hearing acts that the zoning ordinance amendment or the conditional use, which is much more stringent than anything else. Really their contract between the developer and the city, there is not really a development application, they usually are associated with one, but they aren't actually a development application. In talking with Bill, if the City Council, in particular and I don't have the Commissions name on it, although the tool is available for you to suggest things up to the Council and actually the Council (inaudible----------). But, if the Council wants to add more teeth to that development agreement provisions it should be somewhere else in the code, think because then we don't have to spend eight weeks getting it up to you, we can get it up to you in two weeks or some more reasonable amount of time. Then, could be done if it's in the Unified Development. Bill and I have tentatively talked about putting some sort of time limit on when they get with you, so that ten years from now you aren't signing a development agreement for the Ten Mile development on Eagle and Pine. The best thing then is what they got approved ;~.~, ~~~z ~; ~:~. a, x i .; ~', ~r~. - ~:~; ~ (ti iT+~ rt ~. ;,,, <:::; , _< _:__,;~ f,, :; ~'_ Sys ~~~~: ' ~' _ ~ -~4 5 ~r ; ~' ~~ Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint Workshop t` e January 31, 2006 Page 5 of 37 for last year, so some sort of timing mechanism, some sort of just defining what the process is. Do they need to notify the neighbors? Do they need to do a neighborhood meeting? Do they need to do pre-application meetings? Just setting out those guidelines of exactly what needs to happen. Nary: Madame Mayor, members of the Council and Commission I would like to follow up on that. Most of you probably know because you see a lot or discuss it a lot, but the State Code has one provision that deals with development agreements that outlines what they are, when they can be done (inaudible-----). They are done only with annexations, rezones -they have a provision in there on how they can be amended, whether you have to hold a public hearing, but there is not a whole lot of guidance as to what needs to be in them, how they are driven. I mean Anna is exactly right, there is a contractual arrangement between the applicant and the city as to how their property - or what conditions are being placed on their property as essentially a condition of annexation. You can't condition annexation or rezone in any other manner, except through the development agreement. But, a couple of issues that come up periodically - we see some and will continue to see some people requesting to amend an old development agreement because - we saw some recently -because they have purchased the property and the way they were done a year or two ago or five years ago are not the way they are done currently and some of those older ones are much more restrictive. The one you saw recently where the Council chose to extinguish those ones that only allow one sort of development on that property and nothing else. Not very practical for a long term solution, but the assumption was, I think, at that point and time was that this process or development was going to come through rather rapidly and it didn't happen. So, that is one problem is that amending them has some guidance in the State Code. We can use the State Code. It does make some sense to have it in our City Code as well. It is in the local land use planning act -Anna is concerned about putting it in the Unified Development Code and all the other processes that may be extraordinary in regards to development agreements. If that is your desire, then you can do that, but it will slow your process down somewhat if it is an amendment. If it is an original application for annexation and it won't really make any difference because it is going to go through the same time. If it is an application for an amendment to that it will take quite a bit longer to do if we were to run it like any other land use application. The other issue on timing -prior to be getting here, it appears traditionally -what we have done because it hasn't been a big issue is when the development agreement was completed the attorney's office would send that to the Clerk's Office, the Clerk's Office would forward that on to the developer. They would retain the annexation or rezone ordinance until the development agreement is returned. Then the Clerk's Office would crack those development agreements and once they were returned signed, then they would put the ordinance on for approval and put the development agreement on your agenda for approval. The problem was is there is no time limit that is set on those. There hasn't been a problem in the past because again we are so rapidly developing it hasn't been an issue. But, ~~. ~~, '; 3,` .; ; ,,~, ~~~' 'E Q N~ ~~, ~r _ ~ ~~~ .~ -`"~~: :~~.y. x; ;, :; .. Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint. Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 6 of 37 occasionally, we have developers for a variety of reasons, some of it for business reasons, timing reasons, and a multitude of things. You may wait a year or a year and a half to sign the development agreement and I think that what Anna is saying and what I have seen is I don't know that that was your expectation. think your assumption was this is what happened within some time period -and I don't know if you even have an idea of what that is, but I don't know that the year and half or two years or three years is what you were anticipating, circumstances may change, situations may change. You know one of the things from the developers' perspective is in their view, once you approved this then you should be looking at that and considering that in your relation to every other project that comes in around that. I don't know if that is always in the forefront when it doesn't happen, when it doesn't get developed. Currently, I didn't have an opportunity this afternoon to check before I came over here, but we have at least three development agreements that are over a year old that have not been signed. So, I don't think most people would consider that in every other project you see in the course of a year to think of yeah, by the way this project is still supposed to happen over here in this location - I need to think of that. If it doesn't get started, it kind of gets lost in the shuffle of everything else. So, it may not be unreasonable if that is your desire to want to place some time limit on that - that they have to engage this developing even a certain period of time for it to be effective. The city will be bound beyond "x" date to this development agreement or the city will call it back on its agenda by this date if it is not returned signed and then may reconsider direction. There is different ways to do it, but think it is something you may want to think about because as Anna said, right now they just sit there and if it's a year, a year and a half, two years and they just come in and sign it right now, they have a property right to begin their process no matter how long it was that they sat on it. The one we had on tonight was a short window, if you recall last week, they had an urgency to get this on, but they sat on that for four months. Now, that was their business choice and I understand that, but I have had that happen at least twice where the developer just sat on this development agreement for months. One of them was a year and a half. They signed it on a Wednesday, they wanted me to guarantee that I would have it on the Tuesday agenda and they still had some issues that we had to wrangle and I said you know what, you took 18 months, you can give me more than a week, okay? We are going to have to figure out some of these issues and resolve them before we get them back on the agenda. But, that is kind of the market on how it is out there and I think what we are talking about is getting some direction from you folks or at least thinking about how you want to set some different guidelines, you want us to bring an ordinance at another opportunity to talk about, to look at or something like that. Wardle: Thank you, Mr. Nary. I would like to welcome Commissioner Borup to the meeting. Thanks for joining us. My thoughts on development agreements if I could just pick off of some of your comments. Certainly, I feel that we need to set a timeline for the signature of that agreement to be executed. Is six months too short? I am not sure, but I certainly from my perspective don't think that that 12 (_ ~~ _ Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint Workshop e January 31, 2006 Page 7 of 37 month period is too short a window for those developers to bring that in for signature. In addition to that, I think that one of the things that we could put into place is to look at that date as an execution date. If the execution of the development agreement, which is really when it legally binds the city and that property owner to look at some sort of expiration date if there isn't some substantial progress on the project. Now, how to determine is another question. Is it 50 percent of the project completed? I mean, those are things that you probably need to talk to the development community about and I certainly think it needs some sort of an expiration date. Rountree: Mr. President. :~,.: Wardle: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Can we look at this from the perspective of the city's action and the whole development agreement process closer to the public process. He has an opportunity to review staff comments, being punctual (inaudible-------------) and it seems to me that if the development agreement is sent to the applicant it is sent to be conditionally (inaudible) if the city doesn't hear it within 90 days, they accept the agreement and will lose in affect. If we work from that basis that it seems to me that if we are working trying to visualize what might be going on around the property (inaudible) there is not a development agreement that was sent back to an applicant a year ago, the way we currently do it now that is not in affect to those (inaudible) so we really don't have anything to think about. Nary: Councilman Rountree, it is and it isn't. For example, on these (inaudible) that haven't been signed, if you have taken final action and approved their project, all that subject in my opinion is the ministerial action of signing the development agreement. I think from an enforcement standing point it would be more difficult to enforce a standard that their failure to respond is consent, then their failure to respond is no consent and their agreement is now void because of that time lapse. That will probably be a more forcible contractual action with that. (Inaudible discussion) Nary: Yeah, so I think we can still do it, I think we should probably do the reverse of that. I think setting some time period on there would make some sense and whatever that is is whatever you folks decide. But, I think the progress issue is a different one, but I think it makes sense, so that you don't have a big hole in the ground, like Boise has where they do minimal work, enough to.keep the building permit and the CUP alive and yet no action (inaudible) or it gets tied up in some other process. So, those types of things is something that we can look at in trying to create - is other people have dealt with the same problem, so those are the things that we can certainly bring back to you in graphs to consider in a future meeting as to what you would like to see. ^ S ^ . S ~. :" ' ^ :~~ ~ ~o Meridian City Council & P& ommission Joint Workshop ~ ", January 31, 2006 Page 8 of 37 Bird: I just would like to echo what Councilman Wardle said, I think we need to ' have a final comment. I am definitely in favor of development agreements because that is the control that you have (inaudible----) I don't know why they are 4 hanging out there (inaudible------------------). So, I think we need to have a Y legitimate time limit on it and it won't happen if those (inaudible). That would be my feelings on that. Wardle: And Anna, one of the questions you ask is this was really one of the city's only mechanisms of enforcement (inaudible) especially without the UDC, so we may start to see some of those come back for a change. It would make sense that if we start to firm of some of these timelines, remedies and some of ~_,~-~ those things to put that in City Code so that there is more of a mechanism for the .: ; ' ~~ city to control that, other than just a statement. I think (inaudible----------). ~~ ~~' ~ '~ Canning: President Wardle, members of the Council, members of the Commission, we have been trying to hair back our recommendations from the ,:. staff on what goes in that (inaudible). It used to be under the true (inaudible) tradition (inaudible) that every condition of approval for the whole project was put in the development agreement and we have really been trying to trim that just to ~~~ the offsite commitments that are made by the developer because we can't put `;~' those in the condition of approval. The only place we can put those in the ~~, ~:~; development agreements. So, we've really been trimming back on those on what actually get put in the development agreement. For the most part, they are _ just offsite commitments and the discussion I have is about having sewer and ,r water (inaudible-----------). ~- Hood: Mr. President, just to add onto that -the only time that staff is ~~r~- ~~ recommending that they would enter into a DA and this has been some grey area for me and I kind of -when you do a DA and when don't you? It is just an k ~ ~i ~ ``~ .~ G ~, annexation. There is no development plan, you get a DA. If there are only offsite ;~~; improvements you get a DA. There are some other certain instances where a development agreement seems to fit, but there isn't anything written down where it says staff should require an applicant to enter into a DA with the City Council, ~` so our mechanism manager, CUP or to plat because any development is going ;~ to have that. And it like you brought up the time limit that says you have to at least record the final plat once every year or else your development dies and you `~~~ ~ come back and get your time extension. See, you do have that mechanism ~ ° `~~ ` we should be hearing back on DA's hopefully unless there is that DA. Usually , because they are going to be having plats with all the annexation applications and so it has got the timeline. Wardle: Can Isay -just real quick? I guess one of things that I see is when you ;. ~~; have that plat and you have essentially that residential plat, where that comes in certainly has those time extensions - I guess my concern is more some of the ~.~~ commercial projects that may not include a platted property, but a conditional use ~ ~.~ ~ ~,, permit for those that maybe don't (inaudible-----------). ~:R s ... ~, ~.: :.~,: . y._ ~i Meridian Cit Council & P&~ i i J i t W k h y omm ss on o n or s op January 31, 2006 =- :,; Page 9 of 37 ~~~ .-4 Zaremba: I think I misunderstood, Mr. President, excuse me. I misunderstood the sequence of events. I guess my assumption has always been if the 6~ ~r~ `~~~ development agreement was recommended by the Commission and approved s by the City Council that the actual annexation wasn't valid until that was signed and I would think that there can't be a building permit until there is a certificate of ~_~; zoning compliance, so I agree with having a time limit, but I am hearing that they are doing stuff on the property before it is even zoned and - Bird: Boise allows that. F >ti ~, Nary: The difference is - no, the issue on the time limits on making things happen, whether it is (inaudible) by the development agreement, I think like I ~~°' '~ said, that is a different issue than signing it to begin with. Having something in the development agreement or the condition of approval in making sure progress is being made, is a different issue than just signing it to start. What we are trying ::~ _' to avoid is the situation like the Boise tower that begins a process and then gets ~~ stopped. What we are having this discussion about, though, is what you are saying, it is the outset. They've come, they've had an approval for annexation, they have approval for their plat, for the CU or whatever it is they needed, yet they are not signing the development agreements, so nothing happens and the ground stays vacant and yet, you, the Commission and the Council aren't - thinking oh this is going to be "x" or whatever so we are looking at other projects ;; that comes along and this just stays vacant forever and I think the intent from the "`~ `' city is or the assumption was that you are going to come back here fairly soon to start. When that doesn't happen, then that is the problem is it hasn't happened ~~ "~~ and we need some better mechanism because right now if it is two years, five years later they can come in and sign it, you know we were discussing this today, if we had an agreement that is say 18 months old, that was two City Councils ago that agreed to that project and that form and now you have a different group of people who are stuck with whatever that decision was, yet it may not fit what is ~~ going on today and it just lay fallow because we never put a timeline or a time »> limit on when that would have to start. ~' ~ '~~ ~ Zaremba: Mr. President, Mr. Nary on other notices that the city sends out, for instance, compliance from the compliant officer, is there a deadline for response or don't we have some things that are ten days and some things that are 30 ~ , , days? ~ °.±~; Nary: Yeah, most of that would be more of a process type of -not all of the - records are written in ordinance, some are. Some of it is more processes. They i Fr.;~ will have "x" number of days to comply or the next stage the process will occur - t4 Zaremba: If it has already been talked through; why should it be six months or 90 days? It should be pretty immediate. <;~ .~ ":~ _~ ' fi_d - -- - - ^: .. .. ~,:.. ~:. _. .. >~~.. ice::. ® - -, - .. ,.r. { ~ r mmission Joint Worksho Cit ncil & P&~ M idi C '} ~~ p y er an ou o - January 31, 2006 Page 10 of 37 ~- Nary: Sometimes there are conditions that are precedent to signing it. That is probably the only reason, most times that they are delayed for a reason other than as Councilman Wardle alluded to something else outside of the ~' development process. Sometimes there are conditions that are required that need to be annexed and they sometimes refer back. But, I think it is just an issue ~`~~ of - it hasn't been an issue before because people just came and hurried an annex. I mean, we are talking three out of a hundred, so it's not like it's a huge problem, but it might become more of a significant problem as we rezone, especially, when you set that in motion to rezone some property, that is your mechanism to control how a development occurs, it is certainly likely to happen ~, within a reasonable amount of time, or the Council may want to reconsider doing ` " _ ~ - ;: that. , h `' Siddoway: I just wanted to clarify, Mr. President that we are talking about two - different time limits? One time limit to sign the development agreement and get it back and another time limit to have substantial work completed on the project. So, it is actually two separate time limits that we are talking about? ~;: Nary: Yes, that is what I was talking about. k Wardle: Well, and I think from the perspective that everything has been . discussed at least in generalization, Iwould say, 90 days to put the legal terminology together to have an agreement signed in my mind would be ~:~} reasonable. Now that - I guess the other question is how long do we give these _ property owners to have some sort of completion and do we define that by category? That is more of a problematic question for me is once you have the ~a~ ~~., agreement in place, when does it expire? ,,.::.fir - Canning: So, that was 90 days to get it signed? ~., y., Wardle: Let me ask you and your staff and legal staff. Do you feel for the city to ~- hold up our end of the bargain is 90 days enough for us to negotiate and make ~''~ sure all of the terms are in that frame (inaudible)? Nary: Yeah, I think if the Council approves a process for a development agreement on Tuesday, we will send that to the Clerk's Office in most cases ~~ 1 _ s unless it is a very complicated development agreement within two weeks and we t will have had contact with that developer within that time period and most of the conditions that are spelled out or discussed with either the Commission or the Council, most of them within two weeks are going to have their (inaudible). Occasionally it takes a month just on some things, but not longer than that. I ,` don't know. I mean, we could certainly have some discussions with some of the developers as to what is reasonable on their end because again some of them are conditional precedent and some of them are business choices that they have to make. I guess they -you know somewhere between 90 days and a year is probably reasonable or at least some opportunity for you folks to see it again if ;. ,.:~4~ ~~ yi r'N'ci .aR'!. ~~' i yn.~. ' ~. ~~ti t:~` ~ - ' ~~ Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop o _ January 31, 2006 ' ~ ~` Page 11 of 37 . nothing happens; whether it's at six months or a year or something to find out 'r.~ ~ why - if they started the process and get a plat and they don't get working on it within the year, they have to get a time extension to come and see you to explain why they haven't done it. I don't know why this should be any different. Certainly would want to hear why they haven't started on this either, they haven't annexed this property or anything and impacts to the annexations which you all know :';., impacts lots of folks besides the Planning Department. It affects the Fire d t i o s suppose Department, the Police Department and everybody else as to who service this properly if it doesn't get annexed in a reasonable amount of time. v. Wardle: Just let me ask for one clarification for -the Finance Department is not ~ here, but is it at the point of annexation that that piece of property is added to the ~ city's tax roles? i~ Nary: If the ordinance is done, then it becomes part of the city and it gets noticed r. "'' ~~ to the State Tax Commission and all that. Most of the time, of course, you are .~,x dealing with bare ground. So, the impact of the city may be one or two years that A . ;'A{ .. you could actually see some realization of taxes. If there is houses on it, like when we did Vienna we got those in by the end of the calendar year for that very reason because there was already houses there. But, you are exactly -yeah, when the ordinance is passed then the notification is sent to the Tax Commission, the County Treasurer and all that stuff. So, it gets on the tax roles. Bird: Mr. President. r . x Wardle: Mr. Bird. ,. Bird: Bill, would it be fair to say 90 days after the developer receives -you know `~~ unless you get a real complicated one it takes us three weeks (inaudible-----------) ,: we could do something like that. You know, putting a time limit on them, get ;~ started -say somebody comes through in November, you know it might be three or four months before they are going to be able to get in and cut their roads and '~~ ~. that kind of stuff because of weather. You know like a winter we have now there has been a lot of -you won't be getting out and cutting a lot of roads and stuff and new grounds. Rountree: (Inaudible-------------------------). ', . ; f ~ Bird: That is the thing. Won't the DA approve within the 90 days and then get ;~ ' '~ your annexation approved, get your ordinance approved and then you have got ' the tax dollars coming. Wardle: Well, the one thing that I can say that I don't want to see us do is to put ,; into place a time limit and then continue extending that time limit as we do with some of the (inaudible). I mean, if we had talked to the development community, '~~ is two years enough? Is it too much? I mean, I think some of those time ,,. ,~~, .,~..~ -- ;y 4 ~ ~~..- l Meridian City Council & P ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 : ~: a~ Page 12 of 37 extensions have become routine on (inaudible) projects because they were ~::,~: (inaudible---). w;;; Moe: Mr. President, members of the Council I guess the question that I would ,~' ~ have is in lieu of putting a time limit on it, what would be wrong with basically requesting the developer or whatever to submit a schedule as to when they are planning to be complete on their project and basically use that timeline as '= ' completion dates. . ,~ ~;~~ Bird: Mr. President. ~~ ~~ Wardle: Mr. Bird. Bird: David, I have got a problem with that for the simple fact that the market is going to determine a lot of stuff. You know as much as anybody in here that how long some of these projects, two or three years, you work on them before they ever come about - so I have a problem with making a developer give me a time _,; ~ because it's not my money that is being spent, it's his. Sometimes they go good, sometimes they don't. Residential right now in Meridian goes fast. Sometimes commercial doesn't - Silverstone, EI Dorado have been very good. I am waiting k' ~'~~` to see how some (inaudible-----------) in some of the other ones, so I have a }~ problem with putting -making them give us a time. I think that if we make it - ~ get their DA back in within 90 days and then like Shaun said, something has got `2 to be seen within two years or whatever, that gives them plenty of time and you know I don't want them to sit there and be a (inaudible), which 90 percent of '~~£ ~t them are. -~, h De Weerd: I think two years is a long time and it's kind of like the application that came up to us with a lot of issues. If it still has a lot of issues and it's going through the process, why on earth are we approving it when there is issues still to resolve? That was a strong message that Council sent that night. If they _ cannot do it within a reasonable amount of time, that should have a pretty solid ,;~~~ deadline and I guess that is what could instruct staff is take a look at what has ~" "= been the average time and find something reasonable, talk to people who have had one on the short end and one on the long end and see what some of the ~~.~~ ~ variables have been and find something that is within reason. I guess what we want to start doing is making sure that when they come in front of the Planning and Zoning Commission and the Council that they are in a reasonable order that - - makes sense for the city at that time to see if there has benefit to be approving this in the first place. Those details, whatever they are, should be reasonably worked through. I know that (inaudible) surprise to something, but there have ''~ been - I know there has been plats that have sat for six years. I think that was the subdivision behind my house and I am glad it did, my old house. But, you {~~`' know I think there is an element of reasonableness that we have to keep and know too that so much can change in that period of time. The reason we even update our ordinances are because certain things come up. If we own the plat ~,y~~ r`: ~~.;y;;; >',~;,- ,~~ _ ~ (^ Meridian City Council & P&~ommission Joint Workshop _ January 31, 2006 Page 13 of 37 1 ~~'~'~ (inaudible) so long, they are almost out of -they are out of (inaudible) certainly within a certain timeframe. So, I think those timelines should be reasonable to at ;,< least in terms of maybe not Planning and Zoning Commissioners, but Council. ~, Wardle: Well, the Mayor brings up a good point when we put - if we can find a reasonable timeline and agree to that for the expiration -certainly, if we are going to bring it into our code, we can also outline what an extension would look , ~~~; like and what sorts of things would have to be met for that extension to even be s ~ for the most part helps staff at least can give applicants That I think considered , . , when they purchase the property that has a design or a development application to relay to them here is what is on the property and here is how to go about changing that (inaudible). ~~~ Borup: Mr. President. ,_ ~~ ~ ~ Wardle: Mr. Borup. Borup: How many residential projects are we doing development agreements ` on? There is some, right? ~_": ~;, Nary: Some. It is certainly not as common as we do on commercial or office, but - ~ ~~~~ Borup: That was my question - I thought many commercial and there is a , . ~ difference between the (inaudible---) and commercial projects as far as timeframes. You know a 2,000 foot office building and an 800,000 square foot ~ shopping center is quite a big difference. I think one of the big things (inaudible-- -- "' ------------------------). So, I don't know if one size fits all (inaudible-------------------) if =~> they are breaking ground in there and making progress, you know if that is `` supposed to be 50 percent done in two years (inaudible-------------------- ). So ~ ; a (inaudible---------------------------------------------------------) . ~: Wardle: Well, I think some of those things should be taken from perspective ` infrastructure improvements and those sorts of things. Completion in projects is one way to look at it, but certainly not commercial projects in the infrastructure (inaudible----------------------------) for the most part I am sure those lots are ready .~,~~ to be built on. They are waiting for the market to drive it. I don't see that as a }"` ` substantial change different than what they have asked for. ~~ Canning: Mayor, Council, Commissioners I think we have enough direction to bring something back to you certainly. I think we are going to look at some expiration dates of getting it signed, so maybe some guidelines on expiration dates for agreement as a whole and certainly some legal room to give you lots of validity to establish appropriate standard sites specific to that project and so we -r °=r` will work to get that back to you. And we will work also on development .: ~ (inaudible) some representation (inaudible). Moving on? -~: ~~ a~,. ~r~~ RAC ~,.: ~ . L ~,ti; ;~:: ~k~~~T~. :.r: t °:s~' ~.4 r . ,. ~N,~ ~,. :.*q' Y. ~. h- .; {~' ~, ~' .,~= _ .~>, ;, j ~' ..:;. ~~ <~; ~ :.~, ~ ..gip ,~~. ~~. Meridian City Council & Pb~ommission Joint Workshop '~e January 31, 2006 Page 14 of 37 Newton-Huckabay: I just had a question, Mr. President, for clarification because those are getting conflicting. Caleb was indicating of seeing less and less development agreements is the intention of the UDC, which led me to question if the development agreement is in fact more of a legacy process that the city doesn't want to (inaudible) not to - I mean, it sounds like - I mean do you want to encourage or discourage? Canning: Depends on if you want an offsite. If they are willing to offer one and we really see one that is necessary to the successful vision of the city, then certainly staff will try and get that to (inaudible--------------). Newton-Huckabay: So, ultimately it is in the date, then the value added to the city is that (inaudible------------------)? So, I would make it a short of timeline as possible so that soon you realize that value that you wanted to see - Wardle: If we are going to really tying those to offsite purpose, certainly those are things that you can look at from a timeline perspective and decide whether there is substantial provision on offsite improvement (inaudible---------------------) intersection improvements, landscaping, pathways to do. You are talking all those sorts of things and I would assume the majority of those you can -staff level approval can make a determination (inaudible-----------------). Canning: Okay, on to the next. Take deep breaths. Okay, design review. I am hearing more from Council and I haven't been at the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing so I am not sure of your thoughts on this. Certainly, Council has expressed more interest in improving the quality of structures that are built. In reference to commercial development and multi-family in particular, the issue hasn't come up on industrial, but I just put it down on the list because it's then the other category. I suppose the other one I didn't put on here single-family residential or attached ones or town houses -there are many forms of residential that don't exactly fall under (inaudible). I heard that desire. Now, there is several ways to go about that. There are guidelines and there are standards to some. The guidelines are the approach we have taken so far. It says you should try for this, if you don't try for this usually you are penalized by having to go through a long, complex (inaudible---) for process (inaudible-------------------------). There is also an opportunity -there is standards that sometimes that the people that administer those standards instead of being staff reviewing (inaudible------------) and as I discussed with (inaudible) today, there may be an opportunity for some kind of (inaudible-----------) that takes some of the pressure off of staff, but that doesn't get into the help of the Eagle City Planning Commissioner - or not Planning Commission, Eagle City Design Review Commission or Boise City for that matter. They are both pretty tough to get through and I don't think (inaudible------------------). So, those are kind of the outlines and I welcome your thoughts on those. (Tape turned over) 'r_~«. :}~ x~~; :fir -, ~< _.r' y.. #, .,. :~:~. ~,ri , a , ~~ C f~ Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop O January 31, 2006 Page 15 of 37 Wardle: -- the one area of improvement that I think we can see both in construction within the community and those projects within the city is the multi- family housing. I see what we would want to talk about -are we getting closer to what we want to see? Certainly, I think we are getting closer, but if I saw one area of improvement, the one area that would warrant for design review would be multi-family housing. I think we are getting some nice commercial projects. Our single-family residential, home product I think has increased dramatically and we have seen nice projects come through. My thought is if we want to focus on an area (inaudible---------------). Zaremba: Mr. President. I was on the Process Improvement Group that was writing it and I regularly mentioned design review and every time I did the heat in the room went up considerably. A lot of pushback from the development community, particularly because of their experiences in Eagle and so forth. The Commission in the last month or two has had a couple of items where I think we sort wish there had been kind of a design review. The ones I think of since we now are allowing buildings to have a frontage on a private street, so that for instance, even a commercial development or amulti-family development, the back of the building actually faces the arterial or the collector. We have standards about the front of the building, but the front of the building is in a lot of cases no longer facing what most people see, the back of the buildings. We have tried to hit on the developers to do something nice with their back of the building, what faces the arterial, but we don't have any teeth in them and I can give up going all the way to having a separate design review process with a separate committee, but I think we do need to have some elements of that somewhere. Bird: The last project you got through, you can mess with it. (Inaudible-----------). (Inaudible discussion) Canning: I forgot to mention one other thing. We started work on the guidelines for the Old Town areas that aren't in the downtown, the traditional neighborhood, commercial areas and one of the members of that committee, David Turnbull, I guess he kinds of sums it up in a way. He says that his greatest fear is that Meridian will grow ugly. His thoughts were maybe these guidelines should apply to all commercial development. Why are we limiting it to one part of that? He was willing to take that responsibility for all commercial development. We didn't talk about residential, though. He was definitely interested in the basic design review criteria for all commercial (inaudible----------------------------------------------) - or (inaudible). Someone came in wanting to emulate Park Quest and you know they thought they city has improved this, I can do the same thing here and I (inaudible----------). There is that sentiment. De Weerd: I guess as we have been looking at the area of impact discussions and some of the developments we have been getting, it's been apparent and ,~~ ` v. $.~~G „~Mr ~>. ~+ ~, L: F , , ~' _ ~ s~~,~ .r;~; ;. .. ~. w ~. t ~< ~. ti .t: ~k- ~, ~::~ '~< Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop '~ ~e January 31, 2006 Page 16 of 37 there has been a lot of communication to me that the residence and the development community (inaudible) that is time to step up to the next level and with that it is raising expectations likewise and in saying maybe not (inaudible) but if he is doing standards, I like the idea of the arterials in the collectors, but in commercial in the multi-family and I would agree. There are also developers who want to come in and tie in class "A" type of commercial developments, high in residential or multi-family types of projects that they want to have some reassurance that across the street, there is not going to be something of a lesser standard that will take away from what they are trying to create. So, I don't know if it is overlays or districts or what have you, but I certainly know on the arterial's in the collectors and I talked to even some of our more affordable builders and the products that they put along collectors and the arterials and they can step it up on what they put on -even the residential and they are very willing to do that because they want an attractive entry into some of the developments, still maintaining some affordability component to it, but they can do those more interior. I think there are some ways that we can do it, but I do believe that Meridian has grown to the point where we can start (inaudible---) different expectations and start declining areas uptown, maybe more specifically they would like that and certainly in our entry corridors that distinguish that you have entered Meridian over the last city that you were in and as we start growing to other city boundaries, those identity positions are going to become more important -let people know that they have arrived or they have exited. Wardle: Just one of the things that I caution about -design standards and I have given my position on multi-family and the experience of that (inaudible--------) and I don't think we are there yet, but the one thing that I think that design can do in the market place and I think it's a negative is it can set the lowest common denominator for people to develop to and also create an atmosphere that everything looks alike. Personally, I don't necessarily want to live in Pleasantville, where everything is the same. That is something that I would certainly try to avoid with any type of guidelines or standards with a wide variety. (Inaudible discussion) Zaremba: There are cities that have a stringent design review above five stories or something like that, on the assumption that taller buildings are going to be seen from a lot farther away. San Diego, I know a couple of years ago put in a restriction that above five stories you couldn't have a square building, it had to be some other shape. It could be square up to five stories, but after that it had to be something different and those that have developed since then look pretty good. Wardle: Are we looking for specific guidelines or - Canning: Well, what I plan to do then given this direction is to maybe (inaudible) into my strategic plan for next year and try and come up with some way that we can accomplish this along with -there is an item toward the end about sub- -;~ ~~ ~ ~ ~.. . "" 'r~~ ' ' Meridian City Council & PF~ommission Joint Workshop e January 31, 2006 `,4 Page 17 of 37 districts and districts and work that in as appropriate. Also, there seems to be a desire to move a little faster on the multi-family -would you like to try and see that before the next fiscal year? Yes, okay. F - (Speaker unknown): Mr. President. Just so the Council knows, the UDC was -.R ,.. adopted in September -three months just to get to the Planning and Zoning . ,, ,, Commission -you have yet to see amulti-family development applied -that applies under ~ the UDC, so they are coming now so it's a little bit unfair ~~~ (inaudible------) because you haven't seen (inaudible-----------------------------). „' Canning: (Inaudible----------------) architectural, it is more site plan. You will see `~ "; vastly different site plans. ~, ,, r `~~ Wardle: And I will give you an example on some of the things that the Council has struggled with and finally I think somebody got the message and that is 100 square feet of (inaudible) space means 100 square feet of individual space. It ~. ~~ doesn't mean, 50 for you and 50 for your neighbors, or 25 (inaudible-----------) and I think those sorts of things, I think, the Council is willing to stick to. F ~,- :' Canning: All right, moving on. _~ ~ Rohm: One quick comment, Mr. President on this design review, I think we have a great staff, Planning and Zoning staff and I think that they know how to echo the (inaudible---------------) the city and the Planning and Zoning and if the fact _. , ` that they are given the privilege of (inaudible-------), you know I think you are going to need to dress this up a little bit and feed that to the development ~` community at that time of the application and going through the process before it gets to our group - if the developer has any pushback, that is the time to say you r know I like the idea of different facade here, but what about this, rather than once z it gets to the Planning and Zoning meeting, then we say well, then we try and °° design it for them at that level and I think that that is a little bit late. I think it's ;, better to let these folks set the stage earlier. Wardle: And I agree. I think part of the problem is in those hearings, trying to `= ~: redesign a project or ask for considerations about building material and then , ro having someone in the audience think about what that will cost and (inaudible---) ;: and I think those things need to be (inaudible) at a staff level or one of the things that I have heard from the development communities -even the addition (inaudible) some sort of outside committee. I don't want to make this too ' laborious to get that message across. So, we have got a couple of different - options and I agree staff does do a good job. I also agree that not everybody ~' .~: - , listens to the staff - De Weerd: Mr. President, I guess what I would say is there is a lot of power to r '~~~ getting something approved when the P&Z Commission is going this just doesn't look like something that would benefit this community (inaudible) and it is ,. -: -~; ~,<;. ~< ~.~ i' ~' Meridian City Council & Pt~ommission Joint Workshop "` FC January 31, 2006 Page 18 of 37 amazing to find out amenities that they will add to the brunt of that. So, ;: ~> °~ =~~ sometimes it is almost evenly enforcing what staff has suggested that becomes more not as (inaudible), but since I can't think of another word, an incentive to . - getting, you know, to selling their vision (inaudible--------). Canning: I will research (inaudible---------------------------------) and maybe something that isn't staff, but isn't the committee and I will see if I can come up yb1 with something that way and will work on some standards for multi-family and ~~ maybe some of the other ones will be more design guidelines (inaudible), but 1 r ~ ~ standards for multi-family it's all conditional use anyway, so we can go the ```~~ standards out there - De Weerd: I guess just to make it even easier perhaps if you just took a couple of pictures on things that the Commission and the Council both like, that is a ` ~~~ good step in the right direction. If (inaudible) comes up all the time, you know, take a picture and put a circle with a line through it, but I guess what I am trying ~ } ~ to say there has been some strong statements of what people don't like. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: We do actually have a folder started that says bulletin board on it, but I ~' ~~ ,; s~~~> just haven't had the opportunity - „ ,, :~ Bird: (Inaudible------------) where you can walk between the houses and touch .: i ~~'~~ both of them. That is my biggest (inaudible------------------------------). -~ Hood: Mr. President, members of the Council, Mayor and Commissioners, I just °~-; wanted to -everyone talks about arterial streets for the most part and visual buildings there -the problem is that we don't have any standards -the part that '-.'~.~ . ., you don't see before you, but you see when they are constructed. I mean, we , : , ~~ have the ability to approve CZC's for building permits on most arterials that don't ~, go before the Commission or the Council and we are reviewing it and we have no standards in the UDC. So, I think the guidance - I think you touched on it Madame Mayor is maybe it's arterial. All arterials, they go through some other - there is some higher standard than the norm, if you are visible from a street then you need to meet certain standards and maybe they aren't all uniformed the same standards, but there needs to be some variation and not just a box. So, ~xy<` that is the problem that I see is that I don't have anything to tell the developer - you need to do something else because there is nothing in code that I can tell ;~ ~ r-;~ them to do something else. Zaremba: Staff needs some teeth on what they wish would happen. Canning: (Inaudible---------------------) arterials and (inaudible--------------- ; ~ Okay, the next few will hopefully go a little faster and we can spend some time on '~ ~ ~. _; :: ~~~ ;a, ~, ?''.:~i n: ~S ;;. ,.~~;, ~~s ,,t< :> '~ ~~ ~= ~~~: ~~ ~ '~_ y~.. ~r ,; ` O Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 19 of 37 the last one. A quick question are staff reports - we have gotten enough under our new format -are they meeting your needs? Rountree: Mr. President, I don't know if we talked about this, but it would be very helpful to me to have a map with that and not only just a map (inaudible-----------) find out what's going on around here because I ask that question the other time (inaudible-----------------------------) supposed to go out and cruise the city (inaudible----------------------) . Canning: Is just the zoning sufficient? Rountree: Yeah. Canning: We can do that. Rountree: (Inaudible---------------------------). Canning: Just include that as an exhibit in the staff report? Rountree: Your summary and (inaudible----------------) that satisfies most of the things that I would (inaudible---------------------------------------------------------)• The stuff that you scan (inaudible---------) you are just wasting your time other than (inaudible-------------) . Canning: For the benefit of the Planning and Zoning Commission, the one page summary that Councilmember Rountree is speaking of is prior to my meeting with the Council. I do a one page summary on the project that explains the major highlights of the action (inaudible--------------------------------------) more of a summary of the process, a very brief description of that application because of that issues (inaudible------------------------). Zaremba: Mr. President, I think it's important what Councilman Rountree says. I often look at a map that is supplied and maybe it is supplied by the applicant and have trouble worrying of where that is in the city. If it borders on arterial, then can figure it out, usually, but I think it would be helpful and discussion that I have with Wendel Bigham at another meeting, a transportation task force meeting, it would be helpful to have some (inaudible) located and I think if we have a depiction showing how it fits into the community, really and maybe not - a little bit more than what the zoning is around -locate the schools, locate the Fire Departments and maybe at least make it a four mile -two miles - Canning: Two miles, okay? Zaremba: Which would be four square miles. Canning: That is the way it works. ~E ti _ . .,~ _~ ft' ~r . ~> -x° "f4 ' `± x ..,1 i,: G,,~ ,~: ~ ~;`N <;~. <~~, Meridian City Council & Pb~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 20 of 37 Zaremba: You know to really orient how it fits into the community would help me. Canning: We could do that and so with the vicinity map and then -and we are really trying to move having the applicants provide us a JPEG of their project and that is the one that I am trying to get on the presentation or for all one (inaudible). We are trying to get that on so that --they are colored, they are easier to read, they just show much better. We also are trying to get PDF's so if they have - if you all have a question about one we can go to the one and zoom in to a particular lot during the hearing process so that you are not shuffling through big maps and trying to hold them up in front of your face during the middle of a public hearing and it is just an opportunity for those in the public to understand what you are all talking about as well. So, we are trying to get more of those and we can send those along - I would think those could be set somewhere where you could get to them, rather than trying to look at the scanned versions of the 11 x 17's or the larger ones. We are collecting those and putting the application requirements these days instead they provide us drawings in both those forms and so we are getting those. But, I will work on those vicinity maps and it sounds like we don't need to put them in the staff report or do we? You will have a vicinity map and staff report, do you need the larger one in the staff report or do you just want it prior to the Council hearing or at the Commission hearing or Council hearing? Wardle: I think what Councilman Rountree is talking about is in your presentation leading in (inaudible----------------) giving an overall view. I would say that from my perspective at the City Council level a more concise and factually driven map -the staff report is - (inaudible-----------------------------------) and allows the public not to feel that the staff is presenting the application and the applicant presents their application and they get three minutes to talk about something after we (inaudible----------------------------------). Does that make sense? Canning: Yes, it does. I guess the written document that you get, is that okay? That is what I was really trying to ask about, but the written document seems to be okay to everyone? Zaremba: Mr. President, my comment was going to be - I started going to Planning and Zoning Commissions probably about eight years ago, just as a citizen. The presentations and the staff reports are light years ahead of what they were at that time. They have improved and improved again and I think they are excellent. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Okay, so moving onto the public hearings. I think the questions that I have there -even though we are getting the JPEGS and the PDF's, we still get some applicants that refuse to give up their presentation reports and it just drives me crazy because the public can't see it and you can't see it, it's not doing anyone any good. I would like to get an insert in the notices that go out to the t~ . ,', Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop O January 31, 2006 Page 21 of 37 -~ neighbors as well as to the applicant that says here is how you testify at the public hearing and if you want to do a board or you have things that you want to ~~ _F, show the Council, you need to get them to staff in one or two of these formats so ~ ~ F that we can get it on our presentations so we can show it on the board and they -~ are not bringing in those large presentation boards and sitting them on the front ,;; °: row seats (inaudible---------------------). I think it is a real disservice to the people in the public. :a ~~~.: Rountree: Well, you need to (inaudible---------) in that communication (inaudible) ~~' official record (inaudible---------------------------------------). 2~ u~. ~ ~~ Canning: Okay. If you are all agreeable with that, I can work with Bill and with ' Will to get a pamphlet that goes out with those mailings and stuffed in there. De Weerd: Mr. President, I think it's also something that the Chair can ~ (inaudible) now, that number one, usually we ask them to put it either on that one < strip underneath the screen or on the easel so that everyone can see it and the _ Chair can remind them that if you use that as a prop, you will lose it. Use it or '' y~ ~. F-,r~, lose it or - Wardle: The Clerk has to take that. I think the easiest thing for those applicants . ~ - ~ ` is to take a digital photo (inaudible---------------------------) and email it to us. `' ~ De Weerd: Yeah, because then they can take it back too. As long as we have -- `~ } ~'~ we don't have to keep the board, right? ~~' _ ' ~~ Canning: Mr. Berg, members of the Council and members of the Commission I am trying to get them to not bring it in the building. That is really where I am trying to get to. , # Rountree: Good luck. . . ~~. Newton-Huckabay: Require them to bring two, if they want to hard copy and if ~, they (inaudible---------------------). ,F~ ~,;; Zaremba: Mr. President, I think not only the audience, but it is easy for the Commission to see if it is up on the screen. I wouldn't have a problem if they brought in sheets and it went in on the overhead projector because it still gets on the screen. I am uncomfortable with boards that they bring in even though some - r ~~ of them are a very nice project -the very reason is not everybody can see them well at the same time. So, a long explanation happens and somebody is missing . ~ it. Wardle: I think we just need to (inaudible). I think eventually in our new City ,; , Hall the room will be large enough for those boards (inaudible-------------). ~: _~ .~f '~ ~' ": "r~ ~: ii': ,~.,,- a r~ti ~ ~:' ~ h ~~, `, ~. ~~ri ,ni, ~~:_' ~~~ s j4` ~, ~ Meridian City Council & Pb~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 22 of 37 (Inaudible discussion) Nary: I guess maybe (inaudible) the Mayor's comment, I mean both the Chair of the meeting and the Chair of the Commission and the Mayor or Council President, it won't take very many times for the Chair to say we don't want to See your boards, I want to see it up there. I don't need to see that so go put it down and show us (inaudible), they won't bring it. But, if you keep letting them show it to you they will keep showing it to you. But, if you tell them a couple of times don't want to see that, I want it up there or I don't want to look at it. I am going to just look at what you brought me, they won't bring it. De Weerd: Well, just pull up the (inaudible-----------------) Bill Nary and let him do it. Nary: I would be happy to do it. Canning: Mr. President, members of the Council, Commission I am not`getting clear direction. Wardle: I think the direction I have is I like where you are going. We are optimistic you can get it done, just not going to (inaudible---). Canning: Okay, fair enough. De Weerd: And the additional responsibility can be on the person that is running the meeting. Rohm: Mr. President, my only comment in any and all of the discussion on these presentation boards is lacking the JPEG that would be up on the screen via meeting or on that slide projector. I really like the color presentations and I think that the staff if in fact that they can just convey to the applicant that you have to if you are going to present your project, you have to have it in the JPEG format and just leave it at that because the color presentation really adds a lot to any project. JPEG works for me. Borup: Mr. President, I don't think we have had any comments on the second question (inaudible--------------------). Canning: On the stuff we send out? Borup: On the notice, yeah. I think people (inaudible) may want to testify - if a whole set of pamphlets goes out with every single one of them - wasting a lot of material - I don't know if we have that in the budget or not -there is a lot (inaudible--------------------------------------). Yes, to the applicants (inaudible---------). I, f Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop O January 31, 2006 Page 23 of 37 Wardle: I think one of the things that we can maybe do there is from a public education involvement -within the notice give a brief outline and then direct them to the website. For example, if you want to testify individually on this application you will be allowed three minutes -see the website and the standard is three minutes and if they go to the site that if they come as a group they - if there is a spokesperson and if they request any of those certain things that the Chair has the ability to allow them more than three minutes. Borup: Well, that's what I was saying either go to the website or go to the Clerk's Office (inaudible-------------------------------). Rohm: Mr. President, I think that maybe put the requirement on the facts of the developers for their neighborhood meetings. When they have their neighborhood meeting they provide the people that are in attendance with criteria from which any project is going to be judged. They are going to have to know a little bit about (inaudible--------------) and the Comprehensive Plan and those are the primary things that we are going to hear when it comes before us and yourself. If they give the attendance of the neighborhood meetings (inaudible) then we as a city don't have to be the one that is getting that word out, but make it a requirement of the development community and such. Wardle: I think all of those - as much publication as we can get out without overwhelming, but certainly the budget - or the public - Rohm: I would rather hit the developer's budget than our budget. Rountree: Mr. President just a comment it sounds like a good idea, but I don't want to put that on the back of the developers (inaudible-------------------------------). You know they might have it there (inaudible---------------------------------------------)• Canning: Okay, I am going to move onto the last one really, really fast if that is okay - or the next one down (inaudible---------------). We have been doing in the staff report that goes to the Planning and Zoning Commission, we have been doing draft motions so I guess the question before the Planning and Zoning Commission is are those helpful? Do they seem to get what you need? We have toyed with doing that for City Council - it becomes a little bit more difficult for City Council because they have to take separate action to do the annexation and then -you have to take more separate actions than the Planning Commission does. On a project that had an annexation zoning, preliminary plat and conditional use approval we are providing nine recommended or possible motions and would take up most of the page of the staff report, which doesn't seem appropriate. So, from the Planning Commission are your motions doing well? From the Council, do you want draft motions? In the staff report do you want generic motions that we could provide? If the answer is no for all the above for Council, can I ask you just please to think about rewording the phrase to include all staff, applicant and public comments? .k. .. _ ~f:~j, _ K ~~, . n= '- ~^ " ~ int Worksho il & P~ommission J idi Cit C M p o ounc y er an January 31, 2006 Page 24 of 37 Bird: Could you tell me why? `'.~'~' Canning: Yes because there are many times that if there are more than one ``' X' public testifying or if there is an applicant and a public testifying, those r ~ ~ t,~ testimonies are generally in conflict with one another and then we are not quite . sure what to do. What we think you mean is that after considering all the staff, applicant and public comments you are rendering this decision and if you would like us to provide some generic motions that include that portion of it that would . certainly be appropriate. ;;, Bird: How can you put up a generic motion when we don't even know what it is y going to be? We have public testimony and everything - I don't want to make 7 ~ stupid motions or anything and every public comment is important to that thing whether it agrees or disagrees with you. Nary: Councilman Bird the problem is what the motion has been a number of times - I move to approve or I move to deny and include all staff, applicant and :~~~ public comment, where the public comment, the staff, the applicant may have --`'~~ very little in common and then the staff is left trying to create findings based on ~ - something that says everybody's comment is valid, but yet I chose one direction. ~ ~ So, what I think what Anna is saying and what I would recommend that you folks consider is it is just phrasing it differently. Because what you really are saying is fi I have considered everything that has been said and we make this motion to do " approve or deny based on these considerations. ~. Bird: Well, if we are approving a motion, the public comment goes against that ' ` ` motion they wouldn't be in your findings would they? r Nary: I am just saying that it is in your findings. That is what your motion is. " `"~:' Bird: You hit that point right, but when you make the findings, how come all of sudden in the last couple of years, we have a problem? I sat there for six years on there with findings and stuff and that was how I was taught to make a motion? ~4 ` N Nary: I guess I don't know what you mean, the last couple of years, f -`- _ Bird: Well, all of a sudden it's hard to make findings because we are making the motion wrong. Nary: Because you are trying to follow the direction you are given and now it's y ~ different people creating those findings for you and you are trying to follow those .:=r; directions you are given and again I think the staff has been assuming what you ~,, meant, which I think has been correct. I don't think that has been the problem. °~~ `~~ But, you do have that conflict in what you are presenting to the staff when really what you mean is I have listened to all of it. I am making a decision and this motion based upon approval based on these considerations and that is what you ~~ ~ ~~ :~~:; -.=.±~ ,::: a;, ~~, r,~ 7g: ~r ~,' ' ~: 'G, ~,;: h .'~r~. t ~~- ~ ~- _;; ~ ~~ ~,: ~_ ,,, ~`' -~~ ~iF' I~ Meridian City Council & PB~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 25 of 37 should be directing them. The only other thing at this point I know we (inaudible) to get done that comes up a number of times to me from the development community or your applicants that are in front of you -leave your public hearing open and have your discussion as long as you possibly can because what you would like to avoid is the number of reconsiderations and re-hearings that you have because you just wanted it different. You just wanted them to change it. Sometimes you just wanted to deny or you wanted to approve it and that is fine, but on those denials where really what some of you want and the consensus of the Council is if it was different, if it had a different plat, if it looked different, if it had some changes to it, you would want to possibly consider it further. Don't bar yourself from that opportunity by closing your hearing. That is the only reason on those findings is that the staff has been doing without and I think all Anna is saying is that you can make it easier on the staff by just clarifying that that is not what you meant was that every single person here their comments need to be included in their findings because you don't mean that. You just meant I am going to approve it, so obviously the things that coincide with that approval are what you wanted in the findings. It is just clarifying, that is all. Zaremba: Mr. President. Wardle: Yes. Zaremba: I would think the answer for the Commission may be different than what it is for the Council. I appreciate that we get the suggested motions. For one thing it signals us whether it is a recommendation that we are making to the Council or whether it is a final action on our part. It is helpful for us not to have to think that through. It is obvious in the way you prepare the suggested motions for us and that does help us. I would say that some of the staff is using different boiler plates for those and I would suggest that the one that Caleb is using is the one that I agree with and the rest of the staff should come up to date with his. Canning: Yeah, I - Wardle: (Inaudible ----------------------). I have got to see her before she goes to bed. So, I apologize for having to close the meeting. I would like to thank the Planning and Zoning Commission both for coming this evening and for your services that you provide and your extraordinary service and you spend a lot of long hours and I think you do a great job. Other closing comments? Rountree: Do we have to close this meeting? Wardle: We have to close the City Council. They can certainly - ^ De Weerd: P&Z can continue - R -}_ 1 \ O Meridian City Council & Pt~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 26 of 37 Wardle: They can have additional discussion. I have to leave and we don't have three people for a quorum, so - Rountree: So moved. ~::,k~ ~t 1,' -nee ~~~-` r :~; , ~ ~ . . : << :; ,,„ r '~~' ~~; ~~ ~~. ~~ ;~~: ;~ --~. ;~ - .~, .~, ~.;~.. Bird: Second. Wardle: All in favor. THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. MOTION CARRIED. Canning: I appreciate the comments so far and Council member Bird, I -part of the issue is I am trying to take notes on all of the conditions of approval and what needs to be changed and when Bill was sitting up there, I think he had a little bit more of an opportunity to take better notes than I do because I am busy doing some other things. So my staff has to rely more on the minutes and it's a little more difficult for them. So, it is a change and I acknowledge that I am not as able to record some of that information. Maybe I should take a shorthand class, but I am not able to record your exact words, it's sometimes exactly -you capsulate - I have a really hard time doing that and so -and sometimes I have a hard time passing that on down to staff, so #hey are relying on minutes and it is difficult - Bird: The only thing I have been taught is that you recognize everything. Just like when we have letters come in or faxes come in. Those are basically - if you go through the public hearings, those are supposed to be noted, so and so and so and so sent letters -sometimes we don't. Most of the time I think the Mayor does. So, that is part of it and when I have been making my motion, what I was taught was you said so all that public comment knows that they have at least been listening - Siddoway: You want to make sure that - Bird: I realize it is tough and you are right. When Bill was there he had one of those yellow tablets and he had it full of notes or put it on the computer and I realize you have that, but you know if you feel that that is not the way to make a motion (inaudible-------------------------------------). If it makes it easier for you to get better findings and stuff for your staff, I have no problem with it. As long as everybody gets their chance to speak and know that they have been listened to. Canning: We could work on one and get it back to you. Rountree: There are a couple of things that - and I agree with Keith that we need to recognize all the testimony (inaudible----------------------) - just a couple of things that I think the motion is needed to clarify. A lot of times, staffs clarification on an issue will convince me which way to move, as well as an r{;, ~~ ~ -` ;~. -; T ;'. ~ry .~__ ~ ~ :,° ,. . ~," ply', ~~~~~'-` ~ ~` '~w -~ ~~_ ;.~~ ~s :`~~;~ t ^ J. . January 31, 2006 Page 27 of 37 applicant's commitment to an issue raised by a public for the first time ever on the record that evening. Do we track those (inaudible----------------------------) public comments (inaudible-------------------------------------). Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop Newton-Huckabay: I have found that with the comments that they write, what it does do is we still will have (inaudible--------) motions making all these changes and requesting this, but it kind of gives you the introduction of proper language and you put all of the addendum addition and what-not in between. That's what I found because I don't care to make motions that much, but it clarified that because getting started and ending with the rights you want to make sure you are saying the right things so you don't end up (inaudible---------------------). That is what I found is most helpful. We still will add (inaudible---------------------------). Bird: You guys are not boiler plate because I read your minutes every week. You are not really making it boiler plate motions. I mean, you have got a certain basic plate. Anna, what if we said we if we are passing it (inaudible----------------) or something like that. Then we are picking things up. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman if I could try to attempt something here. When two years ago we made a decision to transfer findings over to staff and so a lot of this started a transition even under Bill Nichols' watch and I think what Anna you are doing now with the summary of items that are still outstanding is going to help really pinpoint the things that could be considered while making the motion. One, Council needs to acknowledge that staff comments and applicant and public testimony are part of the record. That is separate and that is just an acknowledgment. The motion itself and I think people or what staff needs clearing on is where there is a conflict between the findings that are in front of you, the findings from the Planning & Zoning Commission and what is still pending resolution. And by just saying and to include all staff comments because all then say well what did you mean - do you need further clarification of staff on this issuing, oh yeah that's what I meant. What staff is needing is what you meant.and so where there is a conflict - (Tape turned over) De Weerd: -- and what exactly the intent of your motion is and that is what they feel uncomfortable trying to interpret into any changes in those findings just to make it clear not only in your motion, but when people leave there they know what the intent of that motion was as well. Did I summarize that okay? Nary: Madame Mayor, members of the Council, Commission absolutely. I think all we were seeking was simply some word change, you know, instead of saying we move to approve this project and include all staff, applicant and public comments, I think we are suggesting something more on the line of after considering all of staff, applicant and public's comments we move to approve this project based on whatever other considerations you have to add to it. So, it is ~a ~~ ~ ~r ,~~ -: ~- ~~,, ~ r t -.;,: ~T ;: s>. ~~_ .:~'l Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop ` January 31, 2006 Page 28 of 37 exactly like the Council and Commission saying the pubic comment is the reason you are there and you want to acknowledge that, but you don't want to muddy up what your intent is to acknowledge that to approve or deny based on whatever considerations you have and that is what the Planning Commissioner, Mayor or Newton-Huckabay says -that is the only boiler plate they have is really the introduction of if you are going to move to improve make sure you include this language and then as different things that the Mayor stated are important, height of the fence, how rare the plants are, where the trees are or whatever they are, those things are going to be what you specifically are going to call out in your motion so it is clear on the record. De Weerd: So, if you are in agreement with the findings as presented in front of you with the exception of and then just detail them. (Inaudible discussion) Rountree: (Inaudible -----------------------------------------------) on the summary sheet and I wouldn't expect you to draft (inaudible---------) motions and I wouldn't expect you to draft a draft motion based on what you're recommending and if in fact the recommendation on part of the Council is something different than that (inaudible ------------------) . Rohm: Just for the record, we have re-opened this joint session of the City Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission, for the record, January 31, 2006. The meeting is re-opened. De Weerd: We never closed it. Rohm: Well, the joint session. :>a~ ~~ .. ~' ::~: Bird: Oh, we closed ours. (Inaudible discussion) Canning: Council with your permission what I would like to is work with Mr. Nary to just come up with some generic ones. They are not boiler plate, it just gets you -you know, put your input here and I think one of the questions we can really answer for you, which I have been struggling with lately is what do you have to say with findings or without findings because I think we all have been struggling with that one lately and Will, Bill and I can work on that one and try and see if there is someway that we could have a phrase that covers all situations and then we could just figure it out. That one in particular has seemed to really kind of bounced us around lately and I am not sure it means to, but the three of us will sit down and try and figure .that one out. I think we can take your comments and try and come up with something that will work. Okay, the last one. ... (~ Meridian City Council & Pt~ommission Joint Workshop ~~ January 31, 2006 ~; Page 29 of 37 , r :; ~.: Nary: Oh, wait before you move on. Council members and Commission I guess the only other issue as Councilman Rountree said part of the reason that staff - ~ gives you three is so that the developers or the applicants or the public don't '~ think we fixed this already and we already decided and also, occasionally you may have on rare occasions the difference between the Commission's findings and staffs findings. So, that is part of the reason why you generally see more ..~ - than just the one, is just to make sure that the public doesn't think or the ~~"= (inaudible) is in and they always put this one in. Now, you do have occasionally in the past have seen where the Commission may have recommended approval ~ -~~ and the Council's decision is denied. Therefore, we need a couple of weeks to redraft findings to fit the denial. So, those situations do come up occasionally as well. But, I just wanted to respond to your comment that you probably will see more just to make sure that the public doesn't get the impression that we some how pushed it all in one direction. v 4'. '~` Canning: And that is why I am pushing more for a generic template for you than a regular (inaudible). It works for them, but we discovered a while back that it `p' T' ~' wasn't going to work for you at all and so we didn't even try. Just because you - would have to have nine and it was far too confusing. De Weerd: Mr. Chair, I guess in the summary that you are giving them right now, though, you do pull out the items that still need further clarification or resolution, ~} they can -you can identify if there is findings. They can adopt those findings and you can ask for clarity on those items. Are they as presented in the .,~~ findings? Do they agree with public or the applicant's desired changes and that g you have specifically liked the comment on that? That kind of (inaudible) verbally and in your motion could you please clarify this. So, then Council can still be sensitive with every testimony that has been received that night and they can build that specifically with their motion. ~~~`~~ Rohm: Thank you for your comment. r =~~~ Canning: The Planning Commission - I have been trying to get the planners to not have you drafting conditions of approval so whenever they indicate that there will be for you to do something, I generally have them provide the wording. Have 4 you felt that that has been provided for you? Do you find you are trying to come up with conditions of approval that really staff would come up with in the first <a place or --? ,, ~~~ Zaremba: Mr. Chair I would say our need to craft the wording is becoming much t"'~ less frequent. There was a time when we probably had to do (inaudible----------) and we do even turn to staff sometimes and say what wording would you like to have it say in here? But, I think most of the time the staff report prepares us well enough to carry it through. ;:~ ;~. ~; .~ , : ,: ,~ -r; ,_ 1 ,, rti ~- ~~ yam, . ~ . ~: 3„ J .. ~ ~S a ._- .. ;'AMY.` 1 Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop O January 31, 2006 Page 30 of 37 Rohm: I think that is well stated. The additions to and the conditional use permit (inaudible) as taking in public comment and the applicants and the staff comments all rolled in. That is when we make those adjustments to the staff report based upon that public testimony and we just add bullet items to the staff report and that makes it pretty clear in our minds anyway what the motion includes. So, I think that you have done a great job (inaudible--------------------). Canning: Okay, one of the issues that have come up lately is this again moving forward the strategic plan for Fiscal Year 2007, so looking at some of these things in the future and also maybe in some more immediate and the idea of providing more (inaudible) for the city. Similar to the Old Town district, it's a very specific identified area. It now has specific guidelines for and specific development (inaudible). So, the Mayor would like to see more districts like this one. One might be a medical district that is for a very specific area, a very specific set of uses. We could include that in the Comprehensive Plan as well as develop a specific district (inaudible----) in the Unified Development Code that includes (inaudible---------------------------------------) just site standards and things like that with specific uses (inaudible------). I guess I just opened it up for discussion to see what you all think about that at this point. Zaremba: Mr. Chairman, Madame Mayor I like that idea and I think we actually do have examples of it already as you say Old Town. Our sign chapter has a separate zone for along the freeway commuter state corridor. It would make sense to me maybe to have a development somewhere along the rail corridor, not signage but what we think should go there, certainly density. Are you thinking other things like the North Meridian area would be in that area or do you want more specific like a medical zone, transportation corridor? Canning: I think what it is really trying to get at, it's is more of the latter where we have got these fixed use designations that have been a little difficult for development community in that they open such a wide range of possibilities that they are not sure what it means to them and maybe just getting some more clarity to those kinds of areas where the Commission and the Council knew that just straight commercial wasn't appropriate and you knew that just straight industrial or straight residential wasn't appropriate either. They knew that there was a mix of uses, but they couldn't really give more direction at that time. I think we are looking at trying to define some of those areas and maybe they are bigger than the mixed use areas that are shown on the Comp Plan right now, maybe they are smaller, but to go back and look at those and say okay, let's try and get all of the metaphors or let's try and get the entertainment (inaudible), let's try and get more industrial in this one and if it gives some vision that maybe is lacking and then back that up with (inaudible------------------------). Bird: Anna, what do you consider (inaudible)? The doctors' office and that kind of stuff? i Meridian City Council & Pu~ommission Joint Workshop e January 31, 2006 Page 31 of 37 Canning: Well, for that one, let me -maybe what that is getting at is what - if I could describe how we go about doing that maybe that would be the best way to say how I would come up with that definition. First of all, you have a rough idea of the boundaries for one of these areas. Then you would go and you would talk to those landowners, presumably it's a fairly small area with some major stake holders. Talk to those major stake holders. Would it be a benefit to them? What would they like to see there? What kind of support uses do they rely on? You know, maybe it's really important that they are next office (inaudible). You don't know. Maybe it's really important that they have a courier service that is located right near by with it. Maybe they need to be by the Post Office, you know just talk to them, find out what are your important support services? Is it important to have a hotel near? What kind of restaurants would it be (inaudible) to target for in that area? Really, talk with them and find out what those critical mass needs are for them to really thrive as a - I have this Spanish professor that was a (inaudible) of innovation. You know, what does it take to really -but to really find out from them what the appropriate style of development whether it's three-story buildings or maybe it's one-story buildings and what the appropriate uses are and not for staff to do that, just sitting in a cubicle by their own or their offices, but to really go out there and to talk to those stakeholders and find out what is important to them. Rohm: Thank you. Madame Mayor, do you any comments? De Weerd: Yeah, I guess it goes back to the first statement I made that if we are at a point where we can raise the bar and step up and take a look at our entire community. It's building out very nicely, but it also is demanding because of traffic concerns and maybe balancing some of what we have with compatible uses, but also something that we can start targeting if you want a certain level of jobs that we wanted to attract. If we want to look at our city as a big picture and create synergies among certain industry clusters or enterprise districts that you can create synergies instead of competitive pods and fill in a heavy refill area with a compatible use that will also help balance and maybe capture eternal trips that will help to the traffic patterns as well. Looking to better utilize our rail corridor and our transit corridors because a lot of this has been further defined as we (inaudible) all. And a lot of this is just how we evolve as a community and what is logical and in filling in some of the gaps. So, it's taking an inventory of what we have and trying to compliment it and it is looking at the mixed use zone and finding out how you can have a better balance and target so it makes it more attractive if you can imagine. We have had development come in and say we would like to do a class "A" complex, but that is a huge investment. Kind of like Silverstone and EI Dorado, fortunately, they have compatible visions of the two corners, but if you would have had a Silverstone with something that was totally in contradiction to that vision happen across the corner, you really take away from your investment of the one development. So, it is helping to create the vision with input and helping also in targeting what kind of jobs you want to attract in and how better to work towards that end. ^; ;. ~ . , ~;,. , ~-u (~ Zaremba: In support of that my thinking is that as far as our growth of population goes, apparently we are already beyond 60,000. We need to be anticipating what Meridian needs with 100,000. That is where our thinking comes in and I agree with having the sub-areas -off the top of my head I could even add a few. Let's say we have a high tech area or we have an education area, I mean at 100,000 shouldn't Meridian have a junior college and where would that go? I could see having areas set aside and planned for what would go around a junior college. Rountree: Well, I guess the (inaudible----------------------------------------------------). Most of what we have is in north Meridian and we (inaudible---------------------------- you could identify (inaudible--------------------------). Canning: I could do some research. You know I don't know off the top of my head. ~~~~~;; Rountree: I am not against the idea (inaudible--------------------------------------------). Canning: I can look through some -certainly not a unique idea. Rountree: No. Canning: I could look through some of the planning magazines and industry and see how that works. Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 32 of 37 Zaremba: Mr. Chair. Rohm: Commissioner. Rountree: (Inaudible----------------------------------------------------------------------). Canning: The Mayor has asked us to look for comparable cities to see what a comparable city is for me and in planning. What have they done right and how have they gotten there and they certainly have been trying to find some of those cities -Texas and Denver and maybe Arizona can provide some of those (inaudible-------------------------------------). I will try and find some. Bird: I agree with Charlie and I am certainly not against some of this stuff, but I think what we have been seeing throughout this Valley with dentists and doctors have been very successful as far as trafFc trips. You see doctors and dentists in particular go in where there is heavy residential. Locust Grove out there in Turnbull's Bridgeport has a couple of dentists, orthodontist and stuff like that. As a consumer, I like that. I hate having to drive to St. Luke's downtown to see my cardiologist or my heart surgeon. I wish he was out here. I like the idea, like David said - I mean if we can get those people (inaudible) that would be great. .z F. :~, i P r ~~: .. ~r';'..r~~~. ~,. =, ~'`;~~~ ~4-, :Fe'. w f ~._. ~` Meridian City Council & P~ommission Joint Workshop ( O January 31, 2006 Page 33 of 37 And it is market driven and you know I am like Charlie, if you can find some cities that have been successful doing this, let's look at their plans. Canning: In my (inaudible---) is I think the orthodontist should be an approved accessory use to every elementary and junior high school (inaudible-------------). Bird: I think that already has been taken care of. I don't think there is anything wrong with having your neighborhood Doc in the Box or whatever you need, you know, because it keeps people from (inaudible) right all over town. But, I also think there is a place for specialized areas. I think you are high tech and stuff like that is more apt to be like that. What happens if we get an HP or a Micron come in? You get all these sub-services that come in around it and I think there something like it - I just got through saying and telling you, if you find the city has been successful, let's get their page. Canning: Okay, I will add that to my research. Rohm: Commissioner Newton-Huckabay. Newton-Huckabay: Well I just was wondering if -did the city just hire the economic development -the gal that was just here earlier, what was her title? Bird: Cheryl Brown. Newton-Huckabay: Yeah, the economic development coordinator. I would think that working in concert with her efforts is going to tell you pretty clearly whether or not what the people -the business (inaudible) will be bringing those businesses in -what the city is lacking and what the city is doing wrong and what the city is doing right. Canning: And that- was the jest of this discussion. The discussions that Cheryl has with folks that she is trying to bring in and what their requirements are (inaudible---------------------------). We are just looking to take it -there is only so much she can do, so we are just really - Newton-Huckabay: Would that give you the basis of your suggestion, though? mean if you are going to potentially approve out or disapprove your theory that you need overlay districts for subs, areas and civic plans or that you need to keep it a general mixed use -for example, like you are saying - I mean I worked in manufacturing and I see what kind of things pop up around what type of business that we do and it varies from all of those things that you are talking about. You know you need shippers, you need warehouse base for your supply chain. I mean you need a lot of different things to work efficiently and I think as businesses become leaner, they are going to need to require -need to have availability to have their supply chain closer to them and I know that that is something that we struggle with is how to bring our supply chain to our front door ~,~_ Meridian City Council & Ptseommission Joint Workshop e January 31, 2006 Page 34 of 37 i; ~ ~~; and I think having asub-area specific, potentially sometimes is good, but in other . ~~~ instances I think that you could as we stated you might limit your opportunity `= - there. So, I would be very careful when you look at the research demo and I am sure that there are some that have done it right and some that have done it wrong, but I think business particularly in manufacturing which is the industry know, needs are changing. It isn't so much that you need (inaudible) circuit-type ,' ~-, building to (inaudible) as you need to have the ability to access (inaudible-------). :: ~' ~t~ Bird: Mr. Chair. But, on the same token, Wendy, the closer you get those people ~~ -you know it used to be 30 years ago, I could go to Caldwell or Boise delivering ~~~ something in 15 minutes. Now it is an hour and 15 minutes, so it would be to the advantage especially if you were in manufacturing to have your satellites or your suppliers closer to you. Is that not right? ~~;,, Newton-Huckabay: That is what I am saying. Yes. Bird: Oh, okay. So, if we did get a manufacturing area to me that would be one fi~~, ~ `~ thing that we could try to concentrate on keeping it in one area and high tech is another one. I think your medical field, personally - I would like to see the dentists and the doctors and stuff scattered throughout the residential areas. De Weerd: Mr. Chairman. ~'~~ Rohm: Madame Mayor. ~~ ~ ~~ De Weerd: If I can be define maybe a medical (inaudible) to a certain degree - because it is not just dentists, physicians and physical therapists, it is education components, it's research companies, it's manufacturing components, it is a high density residential. It is an education campus. It is restaurants that would serve the workers of that and if you look at that corridor along Eagle, you would have a ~r :~ lot of the supporting services there already. You have several anchors of St. Luke's, some pretty awesome medical facilities. You have some medical manufacturing component companies looking in the areas that want to be located '~~ ~~~`~;~. next to physicians and imaging type of businesses and some of the digital types that we are getting into that corridor. That corridor has been developing naturally and it is enhancing that because those people are saying we would like to market. to our vendors and bring them closer to home. We would also like to attract a medical canvas that we can have a research component in support of that. It is ~'~' developing along the rail corridor and creating an education corridor that can go from Boise to Nampa and enhance some of the things that are going in and ~ ~ around that and you just seen it in Cheryl's mapping how some of those , universities and vo-techs and some of the other education both public and private ' are starting to develop out here so it is taking advantage of what has been helping and responding to wouldn't it be nice if -and we are trying to get them here. They want certain assurances that some of these medical, high tech r : - V component makers and it is pretty exciting what devices are being made these ~.~ ~> ~~ r' ;- ~,~. ~,~ r ~~: _ Meridian City Council ~ P~ommission Joint Workshop 'o xo;~ January 31, 2006 Page 35 of 37 days. They need to be next to the hospitals or they need to be next to the physician groups and so it's a natural compliment to what really has been going in, but at a higher standard because those are the type of paying jobs and the type of research-based companies that want to locate in an area that has some ~~~~~ other goals and (inaudible) and again they can create synergies and they can also add to the natural client based or customer based of many different things ~~{, ~ _~_ that are already happening out there. So, we do have a couple of models, one is in Raleigh Durham and that is more high tech. There are models out there that Council will be hearing about at your annual workshop or at least the seedlings to plant this in some of the (inaudible). So, we are working towards those ends and you will get more information as we get it. ..'S ~~°_ ~`~ "" Newton-Huckabay: You and I are saying a very similar thing. You are talking ~~ about a total supply chain service and I think the operational definition of how a ~' K `` person defines those overlay areas is going to be key because that is where - ~.' define asub-specific area plan may not be as a total (inaudible----------------------). (Inaudible discussion) y ,. Newton-Huckabay: Oh, yeah. ~.~3~ Zaremba: Mr. Chair. fi Rohm: Commissioner Zaremba. Zaremba: I think I would add the suggestion that it should be possible to craft ~ these sub-areas in such a way that they enable the kind of things that Mayor De '~ ~ Weerd and Commissioner Newton-Huckabay had suggested, but not prevent what Councilman Bird is suggesting. In other words, we don't force everybody to f ~"1~, be in there, but we certainly make it attractive for those who want a cluster to do it and we make the space available and don't let anybody else in there, but we don't force every dentist and every cardiologist to be in that area. They can be _ out in the neighborhood - ~': De Weerd: We don't want them (inaudible--------), otherwise you will never get a mix. w .; }~ ~ ~ ' Zaremba: Yeah, but we do enable those that want to a cluster to cluster without forcing them to. ~` Canning: I will certainly looking (inaudible---------------------- ). Rohm: At this time I would just like to recognize the return of Council President .;i:,'_ Wardle. Nice to see you back. And now it's back in your court. ~ '~~` Wardle: Great. Just in time to close the meeting. ,$~ ; 9~ ~. { ~~ ., .,~,~: .~_ }: _; r~` i ', ~, Y,i ;3F ^,, if r: `, ,< ,,. ;,«,: -~; €,' ~ "Ft ~,} •; (. - (. Meridian City Council & Pt~ommission Joint Workshop O January 31, 2006 Page 36 of 37 Zaremba: Mr. President before the meeting is closed I would like to comment that some of the Commissioners including myself have said at one of these fifth Tuesday meetings we would like Anna open an agenda to just sit down and talk philosophy with the City Council. President Wardle you were very nice to thank us for the time we put in, but it would be helpful for us I think at some time to just talk through things that you have found, that you disagree with our recommendation, did you throw up your hands and say what on earth was the Commission thinking or did you, you know, did something come up at the public hearing? You know just some feedback like that and that's probably longer than the amount of time that we had tonight, but I think we would like to see that on the agenda sometime to just sit down and talk philosophies. Bird: Mr. President. Rohm: Mr. Bird. Bird: I would agree with you David and I also think that you need to get back with us because we are not always right. We have to finally say that we are not always right - (Inaudible discussion) Wardle: Well, I would suggest that, I think, staff probably already has a score card prepared, but we can sit down and talk about (inaudible-------------------------) and then we can also have some general (inaudible------------). De Weerd: I would like to find out though we (inaudible-----------) both approved Ten Mile - Newton-Huckabay: Which corner are we talking about? De Weerd: Pine and Ten Mile. Wardle: The barracks. De Weerd: Pine and Eagle? (Inaudible discussion) Zaremba: Well, it will be hidden behind other buildings, I think. Bird: I don't know, there is that ditch there and they are not going to build on top of it. I am afraid those multi-housing is - Wardle: I would like to thank everyone again and Anna and (inaudible) you have got lots of notes and tapes. A great workshop and with that Iwould - ~s ~_ -, ,~~; ~.>,_;~: t;, Meridian City Council 8~ Pu~ommission Joint Workshop January 31, 2006 Page 37 of 37 De Weerd: We need to open ours back up. Zaremba: And we need to close ours. Wardle: Well, I am going to close the workshop. Bird: So moved. Rohm: Second. De Weerd: You are not even open, so they need to close. Zaremba: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Commission is adjourned. Newton-Huckabay: Second. Rohm: It has been moved and seconded that the Commission is adjourned. All those in favor say aye. Oppose say the same. ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. Item 5. Adjournment at 8:00 pm. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:46 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ TAMMY WEERD, l,~.A~YOI?tPae®° DATE APPROVED e ° elm°~~+~~9 ~.~ng° ~'~®~ ~~ r ~= ATl"~`E~ D:° ~ ~ ~~~, ~e~ ~NILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK ~ .~ ~~~''°°a°aoeaaaa aa3~+iE~°°~~