1981 07-13
A G E N D A
Meridian Planning and Zoning Comm.
July 13, 1981
ITEM:
P4inutes of the previous meeting held May 11, 1981 )APPROVED
Minutes of the meeting held June 15, 1981 - No Quorum )
1. HEARING - Conditional Use fora Indoor Rifle Range
136 E. Idaho Peridian Jr. Rifle Club
APPROVED WITH CONDITIONS
2. HEARING - Condition Use fora Saw Shop or "Fix-it-Shop"
Donald E. Calhoun 331 West Idaho
APPROVED WITH CONDITIONS
3. HEARING - Rezone from "A" to "C" Commercial 223 East Idaho St.
William B. Andrews
APPROVED "C" Limited Office
4. Preliminary Replat - Country Terrace Sub. No. 2
Replatting of Lots 1 through 7, 12, and 13 of
Block 1, Lot 1 of Block 3 and A Portion of
Country Terrace Way
APPROVED
HEARING
5. CONDOMINIU MS converted from Four-Plex - Franklin Square
Lot 11 in Block 5 Potter & Associates representing
RECOMMENDED DENIAL
Meridian Planning & Zoning Meeti
Regular meeting of the Peridian Planning and Zoning Commission called to order by
Chairperson Annette Hinrichs at 8:05 P.M.
f4embers Present: Don Sharp; Lee Mitchell; Bob Spencer; Tom Eddy
Burl Pipkin, Absent
Others Present: Ross Hadfield; Theron Burgess; Bill Andrews; Don Calhoun
Edith Calhoun; Steve Hosac; John Carter
P4inutes of the previous meeting held May 11, 1981 approved as read.
Minutes of the meeting held June 15, 1981 - No Quorum - approved as read.
Agenda HEARING - Conditional Use for an Indoor Rifle Range - 136 E. Idaho
1 Meridian Jr. P.ifle Club
Ross Hadfield and Theron Burgess were present to represent request to put an
indoor rifle range in the basement of the Old Bazaar building, now Potter & Assoc.
Hinrichs: "The Hearing is now open."
Hadfield: "I have been running the Junior Rifle Club for something like 20 years
We have a program strictly for juniors and have around 100 to 110 kids a year.
We lost our range when someone bought the Modern Woodman Hall and now Potter has
agreed to use the basement of the old Cash Bazaar. There is no noise - when we
were shooting below Earl Bolen's office once: in awhile he could hear a pop.
Twenty-two and air rifle, if we can go in to this new place we will put in the
new Olympic Sport. Nearly 10% of the kids that graduated from Feridian high School
this year have been in our program, 51 of the 537 that graduated.
Mitchell: "Are you going to teach the "Hunting Safety"?
Hadfield: "Yes, we've been doing it - Mr. Barnum has been doing out at his house.
In fact he has five or six kids this week.
Mitchell: "You have to do that before you can get a hunting license?"
Hadfield: "Right ,if they are under 16, which is a good thing."
Don Sharp: "There is no noise problem then?"
Hadfield: "No, when you are right there and shooting they have ear muffs they wear-
I don't."
Sharp: "Have you had a chance to see the Fire Department comments?"
Hadfield: "I don't see any problem there, I think we can come up with what Skip
want's there. We will have to some rearranging - the Optimist Club has promised
to furnish some of the funds. We have to tear out an old furnace and do some remodel-
ing to bring it up."
Sharp: "Looking at the comments from the Building Inspector and the Fire Department
it 10016 like you will have to do quite a bit of remodeling to bring it into
compliance and acceptable to them. I don't have any problem as long as it is in
compliance with the Fire Department and the Building Department."
Hinrichs: "Are there any other comments from the Public?"
Theron Burgess: "I have helped a little bit with the program while Ross was back
in Michigan. I have one boy in the program and he had the opportunity to shoot at
about three tournaments, and I think it is a tremendous program to have here in
Meridian. 6Jith the shortness of things for kids to do in Meridian it is just a must
that we have a place for them to shoot. This is really a good program."
There was discussion concerning the Policemen looking fora place to practice.
Hadfield: "Piaybe this shouldn't be on the air but over the years we allowed the
policemen to come down and practice. But your police can't go down and shoot 357
mg's standard loads. ldhat they do in the rifle ranges, the traps we have will take
up to a 357 but when they came down to practice they use pistol 22's. Right now
our rifle club has six air pistols for you people that want to learn, the pistol
istself when you go to pick it up you would swear it was a 38 - the weight, every-
thing is there, except it uses a 177 caliber pellet. A little background on this
training, Fritz Randolph who won the world running boar match in South America last
year, never shot on an outdoor range. He did his entire training on the same as
we have planned, with air rifles. It is a new contest and we have this planned
to put in. We have some of the best known people right here in Meridian."
Planning & Zoning .2. July 13, 1981
Agenda 1 (Cont'd) Hadfield:
"Our kids right here have won seven National Titles - outshot eveyone in the Nation."
"An outdoor range is a lot harder to control your rifles and there is weather con-
ditions. There has never been an accident in an approved indoor range since 1923."
Hinrichs: "Any further comment?" No response
The i4otion was made by Don Sharp and seconded by Lee htitchell that the Commission
recommend the Council approve the P1eridian Jr. Rifle Range project at 136 E. Idaho
subject to their compliance with the requirements established by the Building
Inspector, the Fire Department and any other Codes of the City.
P1otion Carried: All yea
Agenda HEARING - Conditional Use fora Saw Shop or "Fix-it-Shop" - 331 West Idaho
2
Don and Edith Calhoun were present to request a Conditional Use for a shop
at their residence, 331 West Idaho.
Hinrichs: "The Public Hearing is now open."
P1ithcell: "We were down earlier to look at your proposed location. It does pose
some hazard for being tied onto your house and as close to the neighbors. It's
too bad you don't have a separate little shed back there."
Don Calhoun: "If you would give me a permit I would like to put a little barn type
building back there and keep it separate. About a 10 x 12."
There was much discussion concerning the construction of a metal building, the
setbacks, etc. Mr. Calhoun stated that he would prefer building a separate unit.
Tom Eddy studied diagram with Calhoun so as to check setbacks. The Commission
felt there was sufficient space but cautioned Calhoun about keeping items stored
and not laying around.
It was the feeling of the Commission that there would be no problem as long as
the shop was out and away from the house, trees and neighbors.
The Ada County Highway District's recommendation was discussed and it was the
unaminous feeling of the Commission that Calhoun not be required to do the road
improvement. Calhoun stated that he had contacted the ACHD and vaas told it was
only a recommendation.
The P4otion was made by Mitchell and seconded by Spencer that the Commission
recommend to the City Council approval of a separate building altogether facing
West 4th Street with all setback requirements and to meet with City Codes.
Motion Carried: All yea
Hearing Closed.
Agenda
3 HEARIfdG - Rezone from "A" to "C" Commercial - 223 East Idaho St. - Wm. Andrews
Williams Andrews was present to request the rezone to Commercial of 223 E. Idaho.
Hinrichs: "Public Hearing is now open."
William B. Andrews: "I am one of the owners and we would like to have this
property rezoned so that we could possibly use it for an office."
Hinrichs: "This request states "and/or retail"
Andrews: "I put everything in case" Hinrichs: "Covering all bases?"
Andrews: "I had someone interested in renting it fora Real Estate Office."
Hinrichs: "When the new ordinance is done this whole area will be mixed use area
and will have to be condition."
Hinrichs: "Are there any questions concerning this request?"
Mitchell: "If you want to go with limited office on a "C" I would consent,
I don't go fora retail store."
Plannino & Zonin
Agenda 3 (Cont'd)
lv 13, 1981
Andrews: "The only reason I thought about retail is that somebody else had asked
me if they could put a beauty shop in there."
Hinrichs: "Are there any comments from the public for this rezone request?"
Jim Potter: "I support the applicants request, I own the property across the alley
and slightly to the east and I believe that is the proper zoning for all of that."
Hinrichs: "Since there are no further comments the Hearing is closed."
The Motion was made by Spencer and seconded by Sharp that the Commission recommend
approval to the Council of the rezone to "C" Limited Office for 223 East Idaho.
Plotion Carried: All yea
Agenda REPEAT
4 rreliminary Plat - Country Terrace Subdivision No. 2
Steve Hosac and John Carter were present to request the replatting of Lots 1
through 7, 12, and 13 of Block 1, Lot 1 of Block 3 and a portion of Country
Terrace Way No. 2
Steve Hosac explained to the Commission in detail why the requirement was placed
to extend the road into future proposed Meridian Greens. Hosac displayed the
original Subdivision Plat and the Replat map.
Hosac:. "All of this right-of-way exchange has been done by deed"
"The reason we are here today with this application is that everything that was
done was done by deed - the right-of-way exchange, the excepting off of the rear
most Dart of the lots and so forth."
Tape and all maps on file in City Clerks Office, tlerfdian City Hall.
The P1otion vaas made by Lee Mitchell and seconded by Don Sharp that the Commission
recommend approval to the City Council of the Preliminary Replat of Country Terrace
Subdivision Number 2, replatting of Lots 1 through 7, 12 and 13 of Block 1, Lot 1
of Block 3 and a Portion of Country Terrace lday.
Motion Carried: A71 yea
ends HEARING for converted Four-Plex to Condominiums - Fanklin Square
5
Jim Potter, Potter and Associates, Inc., was present representing Jim Kane,
Valley Contractors.
Hinrichs: "The public hearing is now open."
Potter: "Have you read the FIPJDIPJGS OF FACT?"
Sharp: "I agree with Dick Williams, vae live in Idaho - not New Jersey."
Potter: "Unfortunately we have no case law here in Idaho."
Potter: "We have an existing four-plex. At the time it was constructed it met
all fire and safety and other codes for apartments. There is also a basic law that
has been upheld in several state courts including the U.S. District Court in New
Jersey that says that you cannot impose different standards from tennant occupants
and owner occupants. tdhen somebody sells a home in Peridian we do not require that
the home be brought up to current specifications. This is what my client is being
asked to do in this case. The problem we see is this, he has been told that he
can convert this to two different ownerships - a cooperative ownership. bihich means
I get four of you together and I go down and file a cooperative papers--"
Sharp: "Who told him this?"
Potter: "Building Inspector'; and I understand it has been done here in P":eridian.
That's what is disturbing to us as that is what "Condiminium" means, ownership
is cooperative in this." "These units meet all fire and safety codes, whether
they are tennant occupied or owner occupied there should be no difference. The
only factor is that the Safety Code has changed in the last two years."
Eddy: "You can't compare with a residence."
Potter: "It is a residence."
Eddy: "A residence is four people, not one person."
Sharp: "I disagree with you Jim because this is not a resale of an existing lot,
Meridian Planning &Zoning .4. July 13, 1981
Agenda 5 (Cont'd) Sharp:
this is a Subdivision - you are in here for platting a new subdivision. I think
you are in a different ballgame."
Potter: "Technically you're correct, although theres question whether conversions
require platting in the actual state law. There isn't a provision to cover it."
Sharp: "In my opinion it's a replat"
Mitchell: "When they sell a house appraised FHA or GI you have to bring the
electrical and everything else up to Code."
Potter: "Electrical and Plumbing. Contrary to one of the comments made by
Councilman blilliams this is separately plumbed and separately wired. Four separate
power meters, water meters."
Spencer: "If the State can tell by State Law an electrician that goes in to do
something on a house that is not up to todays Code - he must bring that up to Code,
What about structurally?
Potter: "It's not structurally, basically it's fire wall. In housing that has not
been required to be brought up."
Mitchell: "If you mess around with your own house, you just burn yourself down
but with this you would burn somebody else up."
Potter: °My question is this - what is the difference between four people that
9o down and file cooperative ownership and four people that own 1/4 of that building
by described distances and measurements?" "Condominium means cooperative ownership"
"Single ownership of airspace but cooperative ownership of the building on
condominiums."
Potter: So I have been told, here in Meridian, where we have taken apartments
and converted them by cooperative ownership into a multi-owner conveyance. I can
see no difference in a functional aspect of a so-called cooperative ownership or
a condominium, because a condominium is a cooperative ownership."
Eddy: "I have to disagree with you on that, I wouldn't recommend either one of
those at this point."
hlitchell: "It was build as a Four-plex intentionally:'
Potter: "At the time they built it the concept of conversion was brought up and
no additional stipulation were imposed upon it at that time."
Mitchell: "The original intent was the future alternative of converting."
Sharp: "I would beg to differ with you Mr. Potter."
Potter: "This is what both the builder and the developer has told me."
Sharp: "Until he tears down those storage sheds down there, I'll disagree with you"
Hinrichs: "He also told us that those storage sheds would be just like Broadbent
Office Park."
Potter: "No, but if we are going to allow cooperative ownership we should allow
condominium conversion."
Eddy: "I don't think we should allow either one."
Hinrichs: "Do you think there's a difference in having property to rent out
temporary type basis and property to own to live in?"
Potter: "You're saying that a person that owns has more right to safety than a
person than rents them?"
Sharp: "So what you're saying is that we should have the right to take our homes
and convert them into four-plexes?"
Potter: "No, no - they have to meet other codes. They have separate plumbing,
separate entrances, electrical entrances, they meet the floor space requirements
that were imposed at that time, the fire wall protection in the side walls -
the only difference is in the ceiling. The reason is that they did meet the codes
that was in effect at the time they were constructed."
Mitchell: "I have to agree, there shouldn't be any safety difference between
apartments or co-op's. But why do we even have a different definition, if there
isn't a difference?"
Potter: "There is nothing in the Idaho Law that speaks of cooperative ownership
property other than the condominium act,"
Mitchell: "But we do have apartment houses and we do have condominiums - I'm
talking about all codes, safety, wiring, etc. - all those technically should be
the same."
Spencer: "They can't have separate entrances would be the difference. If you get
it approved as apartments are there separate meters?"
Potter: "These were separate metered. They were purposely separated for the long
,., •a• o, x ~ 5 July 13, 1981
Agenda 5 (Cont'd) Potter:
term potential of being converted. We are doing several in Boise right now,
Boise requires if they do not meet code the statement of fact has to be placed
upon the plat."
Pitchell brought up the apartmentsthat burned so fast in Boise on Broadway.
They did not have the firewall.
There was more discussion concerning stringent laws place on Condominiums.
(Tape on file)
Potter: "There's already an air space, so you have a two hour fire wall here.
At the time these were constructed a two-hour fire wall between floors was not
a requirement in either tennant occupied or owner occupied."
Potter: "This is a problem we have got to face, it's going to come up again
and I guess our request is to resolve it."
Sharp: "I still think in good faith, I will have to vote against it, that we
ought to bring this property up to code if we are going to sell it -
there's a difference between tennant occupied property and somebody that owns a
piece of property. If I own apiece of property I would like to have it protected
from something else that somebddy else might do regardless of what the Code's say.
I have property rights and when you do something to endanger my property because
something isn't up to Code then I think my rights have been violated. So I think
the future owners of that property has just as much right to have the property
brought up to Code as this gentlemen has the right to try and sell the property."
Potter: "Do you think that there is anybody's property rights violated on any
condominium conversion? You must make full disclosure and state any codes not
met with current codes. That's a state statute. The person that buys that has
full disclosure and knows what, if any, codes are current standards."
Mitchell: "How many really read the fine print and know that?"
Potter: "I mean - you still have four families living there. I would say that
four families that live there are going to have more of a concept of what the
status of that building is, structurally, fire safety rating, etc. than four
renters will - by far."
Sharp: "Fora project like this, if you're going to protect property rights -
and that's one of our obligations as Planning and Zoning - condominium projects
really ought to be bigger than four units. I do not think that four units is
sufficient size fora condominium project."
There was discussion concerning common area, parking area. Tape on file
Spencer: "I am going to stick with the ordinances, it's as simple as that."
Hinrichs: "Are there any more questions from the Commission?" (No response)
Hinrichs: "Are there any comments from the public?" (PJo response)
"Hearing none, the Hearing is closed"
The Motion was made by Don Sharp and seconded by Bob Spencer that the Commission
recommend that this request be denied until the project is brought in compliance
with Item 12-C and all other requirements of the Meridian City Code.
Plotion Carried: Spencer, yea; Eddy, yea; Sharp, yea
Mitchell, abstained
Mitchell: "I'm not against the Motion, I'm against Condo's, period."
There being no other business to come before the Commission the motion was made
by Mitchell and seconded by Sharp that the meeting be adjourned at 9.26.P.M.
Meeting Adjourned.
ATTEST:
' ~,
t~%E"id~
i y Clerk
Chairman