1982 11-22~ __ /~~~uL~e--//
~ ~~ ~ ~ ~e°G'DfjGL 5
k
•
.O ~•
o
1~1
E'er MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL MEETING
~ a
V
~ F•i Before
~+ MAYOR JOSEPH GLAISYER
LaWana Niemann, City Clerk
Grant Kingsford
~ [.y Ron Tolsma -
Rick Orton
Bill Brewer
Q
• w
H
~ ~ Location: Meridian Primary School
48 West State
Meridian, Idaho
~ Date: November 22, 1982
~ d; Time: 7:32 p.m.
~ w
H
THE COURT REPORTERS
T U ~E R & A550CIATES
O
605 West Fort Street Boz 1625 Boise, Idaho 83701 Telephone (208) 345-3704
SPEAKERS.
PAUL QUONG
W. J. HARBECK
MARIO DELISIO
RALPH McALLISTEIt
JAMES V. POTTER
ROY GOODW~Di
DON 'STOREY
VICTOR..KUNZ
KEVIN D. LODER
DORIS OLIASOp
RICHARD C.,WILLIAMS
MARVTN 80DTNE
-RON NAHAS
JAQUES GOURGUECHON
CO~LIN CONNELL
MONTIE RALSTIN, JR.
Z ~~~
1
~ ?. v s~ i ro
J
~
~, ~~~
~
~
d
~ Y.
"'~
!f
_ -` `+~ ~~T~_
A
S ~p ~
f ff , E~~-.
I
-f
f
l
1
3
l
S
~
G
,t~
's u ~ 3i'
~
i.
~ ~.
l
~ A s.
' ~ f
N
~ '.
~
:NS'
~
~ ~
:~~ a ~
'~"` ~ 3
z~l
_
f
~
~
~' .
} v
. r
c k
•
~ y.
'
~
~
. 3
~~ w„ - ~
.' ~,{r ~N~jn'~j F
T~y~
' ~,.
'Rk~ d i'v"' ~ y
f ~
: ,tr
~
~ ~
•~~~
~~~S~ n i
~~
~
j
'~
~ -f; ~
~wFr
-
_ - ~ ~k~y'F~ ~ 7 ., p
'1? y'
f
~~
~
'
~~_ s
i
;.~ ;F
g ~
\
~f'
'~
~ ~
F
Y;
3c
s
X
~ ~ ,~' 1 }~
~~,:. ~ t
~ ~5 ~.Y~
~~ a
^
J
~r E~
a
; '
-~~d
_
_,
;
~,
x
,
~,' r ~z
~` ~
~
;
~
~y ^ y
t
y
~y~~/~ er
MF~
4
~ yy • ~~ ~~~r~
S
fi i
~
~ ~?
y
,,
4tS
~ dJ`
'
_
~
~,
~ M1.~~{-r T?~
;~ .
~
„r
l ~ ~ * ~
_ ..~ iy~ ~ k ry
r ~~L.ti .
S
r ~
- - !~ P~ ~
1~~
i ~ ~ _
~ ~ i \}
-#
fi
'~
"
t
f
r, ti ~, ~~
}
^~ ~ `~E4 ~
~ ,~
~ ~~r.
~" ti's ~
a
~ ~: ,'.
~ } Y ~ ~ eS~
, L f' ~
i 5
, ~
a ~
.
- - `SS` i 2i.,i
} L` _ •~~
"~ ~,
;- fY
> ~ t~~
'2~
s
7
~3
l
i
.k
~~,(
1h
.
3~ rai
~
- 1~L.
- 1 f ES~
1
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MERIDIAN, IDAHO,
Monday, November 22, 1982, 7:32 p.m.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Good evening, Ladies and
Gentlemen and welcome to the second public hearing for
the amendment to the comprehensive plan and for the first
hearing for the annexation of the Paul Quong request for
a regional shopping center at Eagle Road.
City Clerk, I would now entertain the roll
call.
MRS. NIEMANN: Mayor Glaisyer.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Present.
MRS. NIEMANN: Grant Kingsford.
MR. KINGSFORD: Present.
A1R5. NIEMANN: Ron Tolsma.
MR. TOLSMA: Present.
MRS. NIEMANN: Rick Orton.
MR. ORTON: Present.
MRS. NIEMANN: Bill Brewer.
MR. BREWER: Present.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Can everybody hear without the
microphone -- or is it better with the microphone on?
A VOICE: Yes.
MAYOR GLAISYER: We will start our openings for
people who wish to speak. If. you have not signed up,
~ i ~
2
C~
•
•
i
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
would you please go to the back table and sign up to be a
speaker this evening.
The first speaker tonight is Mr. Paul Quong.
PAUL QUONG,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. QUONG: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Gentlemen of
the City Council.
I would like to make my presentation in two
parts this evening; one in regards to the comprehensive
plan change, and the second in regards to annexation and
zoning.
I am respectfully requesting that the
City Council adopt the changes as recommended by the
Planning and Zoning Commission due to the following
reasons:
One is that the comprehensive plan as
described on page one is not a product but a process.
It's an ongoing process for directing changes that occur
in inevitably in the community. It's not a document that
is written once and for all, but it's a thing to be used
to guide a City for changes as the City progresses from
one point to another.
I also urge the adoption because it meets the
~ L ~
•
1
2
3
~
~ 4
5
6
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
7
8
9
10
11
i2
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
policy and goals of the City of Meridian as set forth on
page 8 of the Meridian comprehensive plan; that is, to
become an economically self-sufficient community in this
valley.
It gives Meridian an opportunity to control
the development and land use of the property around the
Eagle Road interchange and the land adjacent to the
freeway between the freeway and Overland Road.
Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your window to
your City. You should control it. You should know
what~s going on in that area and be able to dictate what
goes on in that area.
Even if a regional shopping center cannot be
developed at the Eagle Road interchange, your new
interchange enterprise area of designation on your
recommended change on the comprehensive plan will help
achieve the goals of Meridian. Because with a new
freeway on and off ramp there will be additional
buildings and construction that will take place as I have
seen it happen in many other parts of the country.
So therefore, based upon the above, I
recommend to the City Council that the comprehensive plan
change be adopted as presented to the City Council.
As far as the annexation and zone changes are
concerned, I would like to request from the City Council
• ~ ~
u
~
1
2
3
•
~
5
6
•
~
8
9
~
10
11
12
~
13
14
15
~
16
17
18
~
1g
20
21
~
22
23
24
~
25
to annex and change the none at the Eagle Road
interchange to give Meridian a second chance for the
development of a regional shopping center in the City of
Meridian.
The reasons why, because I believe that the
department stores are the ones that's going to be making
the decision, and it is apparent that they are not
interested in the Meridian Road interchange at the
present time as they have not been in the past.
And to expand on that particular area, I
would like to call Mr. Bill Harbeck to speak to you folks
in that regard. He has basically been the head of the
development and construction for Wards Department Store
in Chicago.
He will give you a look and presentation and
a view from the department store's side.
Bill?
J
5
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1b
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
W. J. HARBECK,
came Forward and gave the following statement:
MR. HARBECK: Thank you.
I would like to introduce myself a little bit
more, if I may, because I think it will have some bearing
on what I have to say.
I recently retired from ~~dards after 31 years
with the company in real estate and related areas of the
company. The last 12 years of my spending with the
company I served as Vice President of Facilities
Development in complete charge of all corporate real
estate, design, engineering, construction and market
research activities.
I also served as president and chief
executive officer of Montgomery lards Properties
Corporation.
I~ow, in these respective capacities I
personally developed- or managed the development of over
~0-million square feet of retail store space or related
facilities, and in the development as a corporate partne r
of approximately twenty regional shopping centers.
As a department~~store occupant, I have
participated in the development of an additional 175
shopping centers approximately.
~ ~ i
t
•
6
C~
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
iT
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Ism a member of the Urban Land Institute and
member of the International Council of Shopping Centers
where I served a maximum term as a member of the Board
of Trustees, and also as a member of the Executive
Committee.
I currently serve as an active member in four
other standing committees of the Council.
Now, in these various capacities I have
become well acquainted with all of the facets of the
retail and shopping center industries with my
counterparts in other major department stores within the
country and with major shopping center development
companies also in the country and abroad; and, of course,
also in that connection, with their general strategies
and objectives.
~Jith this introduction and with your
permission, it is my intention to concentrate on the
department store aspect of the question before you.
While I obviously cannot speak for them, it would not be
proper, I can speak as one of the department stores for I
just left them.
I strongly believe that this is very, very
important since by and large it is the major department
stores, whether we like it or not, who will determine
whether, when and where a regional shopping center will
~ ~ ~
•
C~
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
be developed.
That is even truer today in these very, very
uncertain economic times.
The development of a regional shopping center
in the Boise market has been a long, somewhat tedious
process. I can recall from my personal experience that
this has been going on for a little over 15 years. And a
market of this size, I think that's unparalleled in our
country.
Some of these serious people that have been
involved in this effort are still involved. Others have
become frustrated and have bowed out. And I have known
each of these people personally.
I witnessed this at Irdards. We were very
seriously interested in the Boise market but gave up for
other priorities.
Now, there are some reasons for these
frustrations. There are today and have been for at least
12 years. Two sites are zoned and ready to go. And a
number of developers have tried and have failed to
develop it because they couldn't secure sufficient
department store commitments, particularly -- and I
'emphasize particularly -- the mass merchants such as
Sears, Penney's and Wards.
Why do I say particularly? Because in
~ ~ ~
C,
8
C
•
•
•
•
•
•
C~
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
today's environment, today's shopping center complex, it
would take at least two of these to make a regional
shopping center in a market such as Boise.
These two sites are, of course, the downtown
Boise redevelopment project and the Meridian Road site
here in Meridian.
Not wishing to sound disrespectful, so
dedicated and so stubborn has been the Boise
administrative commitment to the downtown project that
they did not listen to what the department stores mere
saying directly or indirectly.
And so other project opportunities were
killed for lack of political blessing and, therefore, the
necessary zoning. This damage could become permanent.
Meridian, I belief, is -- and, again,
respectfully -- is coming dangerously close to making the
same mistake by its seeming resistance to the annexation
and zoning 'of the Eagle Road site. And that's even after
the State and federal governments have selected that site
for the new I-84 interchange.
If, as it currently seems to be the case, the
City Council should prefer the development of the
Meridian Road site, it should clearly recognize several
things: That it's been there for 12 or 15 years with no
department store interest exhibited during that period of
~ ~ ~
9
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1 °6
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
time. It has been considered by a succession of
developers who have all failed so far.
A11 of this occurred during the period of
time when shopping center development in this country was
at its peak and, therefore, getting commitments was
relatively easy. And, of course, during all that period
of time both had an interchange and adequate zoning.
Even the efforts of a good friend of mine,
Mr. Melvin Simon and his associates, probably the No. 2
developer in the country today and certainly without
doubt one of the most respected and one of the most
capable of the development organizations in this country,,
with its clout has not succeeded when thereafter the
Penney's Company committed to the Cloverdale site which
had no interchange, annexation or zoning, and thus
joining Sears.
Now, what does this all really mean? trJhat
does this tell us? It's got to tell us something.
From my experience, I think it tells us what
is rather obvious. It tells us on the one hand that
downtown has been declared inappropriate by the mass
merchants, Sears and Penney's, as no longer being
centrally positioned in the market, as not having
adequate ingress and egress, and as not being a conducive
environment for the sale of hard goods, and emphasize,
• ~ !
C~
10
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
particularly, big ticket hard goods and that they
obviously, therefore, prefer an out-of-downtown location.
Developers tell us, on the other hand, that
these same department stores have rejected the Meridian
Road site as being too far out. For the Bon and, of
course, Penney's, they also considered it too close to
their existing stores in Nampa.
Now, with these two extreme sites, I believe
clearly disqualified as the regional shopping center
site. And I don't believe there is serious doubt in
anyone's mind that there will only be one regional
shopping center in this market.
We're left with what is in between: Eagle
Road, which is in the Meridian sphere; Cloverdale Road,
which is in the Boise sphere; and the recently
ressurected Cole Road site, which is also in the Boise
sphere.
In general, all department stores want to get
as close to the center of current and projected
population as is possible. Of course, assuming proper
size and access.
With Meridian Road, thus disqualified, that
leaves only Eagle Road at which has the size, has
adequate access, already approved as the only practical
opportunity for a regional shopping center in Meridian.
11
•
~•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
It needs only your approval to amend the
comprehensive plan, to then grant annexation and zoning.
Tt would then be the only intermediate site that could
meet all of these requirements.
Now, certainly Cloverdale and Cole Road are
further inboard, but they are in the Boise sphere of
influence, and they each have serious physical problems.
Cloverdale Road has no access off of
Interstate 84, and none in site.
Cole Road lacks proper or adequate size and
faces massive ingress and egress problems with a
hazardous interchange situation.
Though, of course, this might in the years
ahead and with tremendous expenditures have to in the
allotted time be corrected. It too is not yet included
in the comprehensive plan of Boise.
Now, I want to emphasize that~it might be
accomplished, and it would be P9eridian's loss eventually.
One very important question remains to be
answered. With these serious physical problems facing
the Cloverdale and the Cole Road sites, why does the
Cloverdale Road site boast commitments from Sears,
Penney's, ZCh2I and Lamont's.
Now, Sears might be explained away as being
made prior to the interchange decision, but that's not
• ~
•
•
•
•
C~
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
true of the other department stores.
I submit that the answer should be obvious.
It was to me. They were not making a decision to
physically locate at Cloverdale Road. That would be
foolish under the circumstances.
Rather, they were making a decision not to
locate in either downtown Boise or at the other extreme,
at Meridian Road. And they thus relieve themselves of
the heavy pressures that they were receiving from both of
these two extremes.
In a sense, they signed an insurance policy
to align themselves together on whichever in-between site
could finally meet their qualifications. They have a
profit motive, and they will make the decision.
While, as I said before, I cannot and I do
not speak for these department stores, I feel confident
that I can still speak as one of them. I dust left a
short time ago. I can honestly tell you that I would
have done exactly the same thing they did, under the
circumstances. They may not have spoken verbally, but
they have spoken very clearly by their actions.
I do not believe that you want to lose this
project to Boise; by default, that is. Eagle Road is in
the best position to capitalize on this current
situation, to overcome the longstanding confusion and
' •
•
•
-~~~
,ti ; :- -
1 frustration. that has existed. t,.-"
2 ,~
I urge your prompt enabling action iii '~fi's.~~.
3 area and to give these people an alternative snd~to,~~t -
4 them then mare the decision that. they feed tr~ #~s. ~;;;~ 4~~
~ ~~
5 their needs. -
~.
' ~/ ; _ i
i a
6 Thank you. ~ ~ ~ ,~_`
? `;
~ ~ .,
8 _
~
~
, .
i i
9 ~
:;: ~
~,~
10 ,
1 1 - -` '
~,
13
-- ~
~ ~r •J
y.~
. ~
f ,-
14 °.,
15 f
16 -
_,
~..
-~~
_
,.~ b
18 ~ ,:~, ~ ~ ~;
~; "
19 ~ ~
~.
2 0 ~ `r
21
~ >, _
~
~` r~;
2 2 ~
.
23 r
_ ,;
24 ,-
~ ,
25 .
b
-
.,
~. ,~
~„
.
~, .
~
. _~ ..
~.
s
14
s
f
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
i7
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
PAUL QUONG,
came forward and continued his statement as follows:
MR. QUOPdG: Thank you, Bill.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to point
out some positive aspects of our development of the
regional mall at Eagle Road. Things that I have said in
the past is that:
Our site will pay for an interchange.
We have committed to pay $4-million to the State for
the development of the interchange at Eagle Road.
We have agreed to bring utilities to that
area which would serve not only our project but in the
future will serve the technical park development that is
on the south side of the freeway.
trJe will bring employment into this area so
that we will meet the policy goals of the comprehensive
plan; that is, to provide employment to the people in
this area.
4de~re talking about two thousand permanent
jobs after the center opens, five hundred part-time jobs
for the students here in this school district.
We will bring many people throughout the
Valley into the A7eridian area, but without bringing in
your traffic congestion to your Old Town or downtown
~ ~ i
15
•
•
i
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
area.
You presently have about ?,500 vehicles a day
going through town. In shopping malls located at
Meridian Road, dust for Phase 1 will bring in another
15,000 traffic -- or cars per day. When the mall is
fully developed out, that will bring in another 22,000
cars to the area.
It has been estimated by our competitor's own
engineering study that there will be 77,000 car trips a
day generated by the mall. A good portion of that will
be coming through downtown and yet there is a lot of
traffic now at 7,500 cars a day.
Another benefit that this will create is an
enlarged base for taxes for this taxing district.
Now, I would like to call in a consultant to
enlarge on this point. I would like to ask Mr. Mario
Delisio to address this particular issue.
Mario?
• ~
16
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
i3
14
15
16
17
16
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
MARIO DELTSIO,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. DELISIO: I am Mario Delisio. I am a
location site analyst and urban geographer of Boise State
University and Director of Professional Business
Consultants.
I have been looking at and observing and
studying the situation in Boise Treasure Valley since the
mid-1960's when the whole concept of urban renewal, in
downtown Boise and then later on with the ideas of
putting malls in Meridian or along the freeway. I,
Based on my study since the~mid-1960's, I
have looked really in detail at all of the aspects and
all of the parameters in all of the sites, and based on
my independent analyses felt very strongly that the site
that had the most positive attributes was the
Quong-4latkins site at Eagle Road.
Based on that, Quong asked me to share with
you some of the information and data that we have been
able to accumulate and to gather in our studies, some of
those.
Particularly, the area that Mr. Quong asked
me to address were areas where the questions that have
been raised by the Mayor and people on the Council and
~ L a
17
•
C:
i
i
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
2S
some of the others that have been concerned.
One of the things that I observed is, there
has been so little data base presented at meetings.
There has been an awful lot of emotional response, but
really very little data.
And the position that we have tried to
establish for this presentation and for
Mr. Quong is to establish some kind of sound data base.
And that~s what I want to share with you this evening.
I gave a small preliminary statement to
Mr. Quong during the first part of November which was
meant to give him a little bit of clue of the direction
we were going. Tonight we have the accumulated results, '
really, in terms of a final report.
Let me address the issues that have been
raised in the past and in the present by people on the
Council and others.
One of the mayor questions has been this need..
for fire protection costs, What~s it going to entail,
What are the costs involved. Somehow the view has come
about that with the development of the mall there is
going to be required a full-time fire department. Now,
our studies have shown that this is not the case at all.
And I will elaborate.
The second point was police protection needs
~ ~
18
•
•
C7
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
and costs relative to the mall.
A third point, property taxes and effects
relative to the project; that is, What is going to happen
to taxes, What is going to happen to the income that is
generated by the mall.
The effect of the 50 percent or $50,000
homeowners exemption is an area that we investigated too.
Let me share with you the results of our studies.
First of all, the costs of fire protection
will be minimal on the City of Meridian in a number of
aspects:
No. 1 , we all know P~9r. Quong has offered to
build a fire station and supply a vehicle.
No. 2, the continuing costs, manpower, what II
have you; this can be alleviated by adopting the Moscow,
Idaho Volunteer Fire Plan in which they utilize
University of Idaho students. The system has been in usel
in Moscow for a decade; it has been very successful.
The students are highly competent and
effective. They serve in a number of capacities. Their
effects are enormous.
First of a11, the system, which will be
elaborated on after my presentation, the system helps to
reduce response time enormously. The students can live
above the fire station. You have 2~1 hour coverage. The
~ ~ ~
19
•
i
•
C~
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
costs are minimal because the students are provided with
rooms and Chief McAllister will elaborate further.
Another point is the fact that the track
record of malls in terms of fire hazards, the track
record is excellent in terms of not having fire hazards.
They are built to the latest and highest codes.
kle have investigated malls locally and
throughout the United States and without reservation the
mall managers, the security and the fire officials
involved have given malls a clean bill of health. Their
track record is excellent, and really they present
practically no hazard at all.
One of the benefits of having an additional
fire station in the area is the fact that -- you see, the
fire station is not going to be serving only the mall; it
is going to be serving the community. This does a number
of things.
First of all, you have got two response
systems. You have a backup for the downtown, and the
downtown has a backup with the auxiliary station.
In terms of saving property, this is going to
be enormous; and in terms of saving lives, you cant
place a value on it, although no real cost to the City.
Costs that the taxes that the Quong project will generate
will easily pay -- more than pay for continuing costs for
~ ~ ~
a
20
•
•
•
•
C~
•
C7
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
29
22
23
24
25
the fire station.
There is gust no need and there is no
evidence, Folks, that a full-time paid fire department
costing a half a million or three-quarter million
dollars, there is no evidence that they exist.
The evidence is to the contrary, and tae will
present evidence of a model that is efficient, competent
and cost-effective.
Tn terms of additional police protection, one
of the things that we have found out in our
investigation, we have gone to Karcher gall; we have also
investigated the irJoodfield Mall in Shaumburg, Illinois,
I
the largest enclosed mall in the United States, according ',
to their claim.
The incidents of calling police to Karcher
Mall, according to their security, is less than about
-five times per month; not more than five times per month
are the Nampa police called to Karcher P9a11.
Karcher h1a11 has three security officers;
they handle virtually all of the security problems. Most
of the security problems are shoplifting, and only about
five times are the calls serious enough that the Nampa
Police Department has to be brought in; five times.
The Woodfield Mall in Illinois has a
population serving somewhere in the neighborhood of
~ ~
21
•
•
•
C~
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8-million people but 2-million square feet, and their
track record, again, is extremely low. Very low.
And you can investigate the two malls in
Moscow, Idaho: the Empire Mall, the "Faleese" Mall. All
of the malls that we have investigated the need for
additional police protection have been minimal.
With internal security, adequately trained
and communicative, we find, to the shopowners -- if they
will communicate with the shopowners and set up a system
of communication, that minimizes the problem.
The other mayor aspect is that they
communicate with the mall developer in terms of lighting,
parking, bicycle parking, entrance -- all of those
factors where there may be possible problems.
If security works with the developers, with
the shopowners and with the local police department, the
police needs are minimal. And in no way can we see a
need for adding to the Meridian Police Department.
Mr. Quong is going to have, and will provide, internal
security.
One of the things interesting, too, at
Karcher Mall: A11 three of the full-time personnel are
also reserve officers. So they are really integrated in
the Nampa Police Department.
In terms of Meridian, this will also give
22
•
•
E]
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
employment, part-time employment, to Peridian reserve
officers.
It will also help to solidify the bond and
communication between the developer and the Peridian
Police Department as well as the City officials.
In terms of taxes generated by this project,
in hearings that I have attended I have heard numbers as
low as $17,000 a year, and I think the highest that I
ever heard was $80,000.
~~Je investigated with the Idaho State Tax
Commission, and ran through the figures and the numbers
and came up with the data. And based on a $90-million II
market value, the Idaho State Tax Commission is talking
in terms of the Quong project generating something in the
neighborhood of $860,000 a year; not seventeen, not
eighty, but somewhere in the neighborhood of $860,000, an
enormous amount of revenue that can be here.
The revenue will be used for budgetary needs,
and also because the budget of Meridian is somewhere
around, what, $1,300,000, that can be used to help
alleviate some of the property taxes. It can provide tax
relief.
The fifty thousand or 50 percent homeowners
exemption, what's the effect in the community.
Okay. According to the Idaho Planing
~ i i
23
•
•
r~
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Association, they commissioned a study by 1Jhitney &
t~Jhitney consulting firm giving the idea of what the 20
percent or ten thousand did. Statewide, $5.2-million in
property taxes were shifted away in 1981.
«ith the 50 percent of fifty thousand it
would have caused a further $18-million in shift. The
homeowners property taxes are being reduced. The burden
is being shifted to another sphere.
The community needs development like Quong~s,
Quong-6aatkins project, to take up the slack where the
homeowners exemption is providing relief.
The "mining" has to come from a commercial
interest to support the needs of the community. And this
one will.
So, in summary, basically what we have found
out is, No. 1, there is no data and no need for a
full-time paid fire department with the Quong-tiaatkins
project. 6ae have a model that works; the you models are
extremely well built, a minimal need, minimal major
hazard, police department needs with internal security
and maintenance communication is all involved. The
Incidents are low in areas of, like, Karcher I~1all, and
even one of the largest ones.
The taxes generated are enormous; they are
not on the micro scale that have been talked about, so
~ i i
[~
24
•
•
•
7
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
their impact in the community will be great. And the 50
percent homeowners are going to shift the burden, and
.M r. Quong's project is needed to help.
Now, in terms of traffic flow, I want to say
one other thing, the question of the effect of the Nahas
site and the Eagle Road site.
In a letter that rlayor Glaisyer wrote to
Roger Powell on July 30th, 1981, he made note of the fact
that he really wanted the Eagle interchange developed
because one of the major problems at that time was just
the sheer numbers of traffic coming through Meridian.
With a major mall at Meridian Road -- and you
want to see traffic, you will have traffic.
With the site at Eagle Road, there are a
number of options to alleviate traffic. It won't all
funnel through downtown Meridian. ',
Another major point is the effect on downtown)
businesses. In one of the fictions that has been passed
around is the fact that the Eagle Road site will somehow
impact downtown greater than the Nahas site -- somehow
the Nahas site would seem to make downtown great.
The real gravity that we find is the fact
that the Nahas site is so close to downtown, shoppers
will pass through downtown to go to the Meridian site;
it's just too much of a magnet.
~ L !
0
•
25
•
C~
n
.~
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1~
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The relative isolation, however, of the
Eagle Road site makes it such that, No. 1, people will
have to deliberately want to go to the Eagle Road site.
And with its relative isolation downtown, that they will
maintain itself with some kind of identity and as a
commercial oenter.
The Eagle Road site will not hurt to anywhere
near the extent that the site at Meridian and I-34 will.
It will have a mayor impact on the businesses.
At this time, I would like to show some
slides dealing with the fire department, the model that
we suggest using University of Idaho students in Moscow,
and here using Boise State University students.
One last comment I want to make is that, if
you look at the comprehensive plan, you can see that not
only Mayor Glaisyer's letter, but also the diagram that
is featured there, one dealing with services -- high tech
services -- it is very clear and obvious that there has
been intent all along to develop the area.
Somehow it's been the illusion in the past
that the area is going to be pristine; in reality, the
intent in the comprehensive plan is to develop the area,
which means that the intended services will ultimately --
though there is no addressing that the developer is going
to pay for the mall, that the intended services will be
~ , ~
26
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
taken care of. The area is programmed to be developed.
Quong-Watkins site is the best development,
because, No. 1, he is going to pay the costs; No. 2, it
can be argued the safest and highest and best use of the
land. But the area is meant to be developed, Folks; it's
not meant to be primeval.
I do want to show on the opaque projector
first, and then I will introduce Chief r1cAllister.
Here is what we are talking about. Irle have
the Interstate, the Meridian Road, Eagle Road.
Here we show essentially kitty-corner from
Quong-l~latkins site we can see that we have intent for
development here, ah igh-tech technological area.
The whole area is -- the area here is planned
from the beginning to be developed; it is not meant to
simply sit there. So the Quong-ddatkins proposal is not
something out of the norm. It is in the area that is
planned to be developed.
In terms of fire hazards, technological or
industrial park is much higher than a regional shopping
mall with all its fire preventative materials and
construction. A high-tech area would prevent much
greater risk; besides that, nothing has been addressed in
terms of developers providing everything.
Mr. Quong is going to provide all of the
~ L !
27
•
•
•
•
L
i
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
connections and the fire equipment and the police
equipment. Let me put one more on there.
So here we have, if you can read it, a couple
of points. July 30th, 1981.
Okay. Here we can see it's the policy of the
City of Meridian to encourage and provide development of
an interchange, a plan further to address the quality
and development of a technological park. So the area at
the interchange, you can see, has been planned for
development.
Secondly, we address the question that its
imperative that the Eagle site is selected at this
interchange would relieve northbound Highway 55 traffic
which is currently being routed through downtown
1~9eridian.
Traffic is a burden with the present
situation and with the enormous traffic being funneled
through to the Meridian mall site, you haventt seen the
traffic yet.
The Eagle site would alleviate, would have
much less of an impact than at Meridian and I-84.
At this time I would like to have Chief Ralph
McAllister of the .Moscow, Idaho Fire Department make his
presentation.
If we can have the lights on temporarily, I
A
28
•
•
•
•
•
•
r
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
'17
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
will set the slide projector up and then introduce
Chief McAllister. So if you can give me a few seconds,
please.
lJe have asked Chief Ralph McAllister, the
Fire Chief of Moscow, Idaho Fire Department to kind of
communicate to us the history that they have had and the
impact of malls, fire protection in the Moscow, Idaho
area.
Chief McAllister is the president of the
4destern Fire Chief's Association, a member of the Moscow
;Fire Department since 1955, recipient of the
Distinguished Citizen's Award in 1975 and listed in
Who's Who in 1975.. At this time I present to you
~ Chief Ralph McAllister.
Thank you.
~ I ~ '
29
:~
•
•
._
•
n
.~
C7
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
RALPH McALLISTER,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. McALLISTER: Thanks, Mario. After that, I
don't know whether you have introduced me or not
(laughter).
My purpose hear is not to probably quite
convince you to make a decision whether you should have a
mall or whether you shouldn't or where you should put it.
But I think my purpose here is to explain to
you about the Fire Department we use in Moscow and how it
can work, how it has worked for several years and is
still working and is anticipated it will continue to work
as a volunteer fire department.
I think Mario has some slides we made up
there at the Department to try to explain a little bit
for you, and then maybe go through on dust exactly how we
operated and why it's working for us and try to give you
an idea that a volunteer fire department can provide fire
protection.
This is the main station in Moscow. This
station was built -- the right-hand side of it was built
in 1827. And the other side, you can see, was built in
1954. It was finished in 1955.
This was built with volunteer funds. It's
~ i ~
30
•
•
C
C
C~
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
owned by the volunteers, lock, stock and barrel. The
City does not have a penny into it. No tax moneys
involved.
This is some of the equipment in it. The
truck right in the middle there happens to be a rural
fire district truck. ti~Je maintain the rural fire district
out of the station as well as the City fire truck.
They both run in the same administration and
we use the same people for the rural that we use in the
City-.
A VOICE: Excuse me, Chief. Could you talk a
little closer to the microphone; T'm having a little
difficulty.
MR. McALLISTER: Pardon me. I'll turn around
here so I'm talking into it.
I'll say it again for the people that didn't
hear, that we do run the rural fire district out of the
same station as we do on the City, and also with the same
personnel and the same administration.
This happens to be the alarm center upstairs
in the main station. We have capabilities of doing the
dispatching either upstairs or downstairs; it doesn't
matter. And it's small, compact.
The console itself is in the main bay station
just downstairs. This is a console which is used
• 1
31
•
•
C
C ~'
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
upstairs for dispatch.
This happens to be out at Station 2, and we
will get a little bit into the student program in a
little later bit here, but this is where the recreation
rooms are out there and also off to the other side is the
kitchen that's used out there for the students that live
at the station. And they do their studying there.
This happens to be the upstairs in the main
station you have seen before, the recreation part. That
happens to be one of the University of Idaho students
that lives with us. Back there you see the doors to the
rooms that we have there that they live in.
Entertainment is provided. Those of you
that noticed the "barricades" -- remember, I told you
that the station belongs to volunteers. The City cannot
-- can't have miracles. They don't sell it.
This is one of the students; he is sitting at
a downstairs desk with the alarm system and with all of
the dispatching right there, notice above his head there
on the right-hand corner is an automatic alarm system
board there that we have.
Every one of the mall stores are tied into
it; we have the campus and whoever would like to be tied
into it. And again, the dispatch man calls out of right
here.
~ ~ ~
32
•
•
•
•
C7
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
By the way, also the dispatcher that is on
duty at night sleeps in that office so we have got 24
hour coverage at the automatic board.
Here's one of the students' rooms and closets
that are provided; they turn out here by the door ready
to go.
One of the students' rooms; two students to a
room, bunkbeds. The typical housekeeping of students,
but we have no problem with them. They do a pretty good
fob. They are responsible for their own linen,
bedmaking, house cleaning.
This is the exterior of Station 2 and -the
training tower. This training tower was built and
finished in 1966 at a cost of about thirty, thirty-five
thousand dollars of volunteer moneys.
The station there itself, main station, was
completed in 1972. It cost about $90,000 for the main
station and it has rooms in it, about four University of
Idaho students out there.
That building was built with half City funds
and half volunteer funds. ~i45,000 each.
A better shot of Station 2. L~Je also house
some of the rural equipment out there. The tanker you
see there, the inspector's car, ambulance.
The interior -- by the way, the ambulance
33
•
•
•
C
C~
•
•
•
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
service is fully owned by the volunteer fire department.
Therets not a dime in it of tax money or subsidies in the
ambulances.
The Fire Department runs the ambulance
service on volunteer labor. And repairs, fuel and
department vehicles go to the City shop. They bill us
every month; we write them a check to pay for it.
The ambulance service has three fully
equipped ambulances. Like I say, it is totally operated
by the volunteers. No tax funds are involved.
For training, we have certification. This
happens to be one of the ones we had just rewritten for
our training program, and these people that you see here
on this particular slide are those that are starting out
for the fire science degree, so their records are kept as
they get their attendance past a certain level.
We have prescribed a training program for thee,
students as well as volunteers. They are required to
take a certain amount of training.
MR. DELISIO: That~s all, Chief.
Could T have the lights, please.
MR. McALLISTER: Ind like to go ahead and explain
just how our system works. It has been working for years
and years and years. The Fire Department also was
organized back in 1892 as a volunteer fire department.
~ i ~
34
•
•
•
•
L
•
i
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
It is incorporated, registered with the State
of Idaho and is still volunteer. Ede pay no small pay; no
pay whatsoever. And the service is self-supporting.
Rloney is to purchase the ambulance, to the fire station.
That is operated by the fire department.
The student program that we have, we have
used students in there -- in fact, they were there when I
0
first had gone there, and I think they have been there
for years. When the first part of that station was
built, they built some rooms up there to house live-in
people.
I think when it first started, why, some of
the firemen -- bachelor firemen lived there. And then
the student program came along, and we started taking in
University of Idaho students.
This program has worked real well for them.
Very well. We turn down more students, I think, than we
take in. Right at the present time I think at me desk I
have applications of about ten students wanting in.
They're up for next fall. The place is full now, and it
looks like it will stay full.
Last year we had sixteen students in there
for the summer. It stayed clear full.
Those students are required to take the same
training as a regular volunteer fireman. A lot of those
~ ~
35
•
1
students come and they stay with us four years. ode have
•
•
•
t
•
•
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
had them stay as long as seven years.
We have had four brothers in one family there
at one time. Students are trained and they operate all
the equipment, trained to fight fires. They are required
to take the basic thirty-hour course. They are required
to take any other training courses that we lay on them.
And I mentioned a while ago, we have dust
rewritten our -- rewrote our training program, and this
will be put into the requirement when they come in;
particularly, in the driving and communication part.
They are to respond with the equipment.
They're the first responders by having those students
live there, where they are out the door in one minute or
less, and generally at a place of business district and
the towns precinct, why, they're there within two or
three minutes and set up there to fight a fire.
The training is in all phases of fire
fighting. They operate pumps, start to the fire base
with the volunteer truck.
Actually, the students are some of our
probably better fire fighters. We have paid them with a
room; you have seen them in the picture. That~s what
they get from us, except for the training.
I would mention also that we have had times
~ ~ ~
•
36
C7
i
•
•
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
where those people go on through to be professional fire
fighters and made that their life work.
As far as the program, the training, they are
run through a screening process, letters of
recommendation, character references, this type of thing,
from home. Not their family, but other people who have
known them.
They are run through a private interview.
They are required to take the training and in the
screening process we have had very, very few students
that have given us any problems. I think in the past .ten
years or better we have asked two students to leave,
which were minor infractions -- or one was a minor
infraction and °one was afraid of fire fighting and afraid
of the equipment.
But, again, the students have really worked,
getting no pay, and then turn around and get more
applications to be taken in.
Now, in reference to the mall creating
problems for us, we have noticed no difference. The mall
is generally now being built to code. There are
sprinklers, internal alarm systems, generally a lot of
them tied into the fire stations. Our calls have not
increased because of the mall.
In fact, I don't think that we have had, as I
r
37
C:
f
t
1
s
1
2
3
4
S
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
recall, a fire call to the mall. We have had system
malfunctions, and you will have that many times when you
put in a new system. You~re going to have a system
malfunction. But we have had some close call threats.
But I think I can recall they werentt all from smoke
being present. That was the balance of whether or not
the smoke got into the air conditioning system and got
down so that they got alarmed -- in fact; the alarm would
not go off at all.
But it has not created a problem for us. 1~Je
have not had to add people to the process. Were still
static in our membership. And the calls that we have
had, they dontt create the problems. The older building s
create more problems; chimneys create more problems.
We also furnish the fire protection for the '
University of Idaho. And I imagine we have more calls --
I know we have more calls up there than we have anywhere i
in those malls. As I say, I know the malls have been
there three, four years. We have had no fire calls out
there, no fire loss at the mall. That is not creating a
problem with us.
In fact, those buildings are good, well
built, by code, of course, we have the the Life Safety
Codes, the Uniform Fire Code, the Building Code,
R1echanical Code, Electrical Code, Plumbing Code, and this
7 ~ ~
38
•
t
•
•
i
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
type, adopted in the City of Moscow, and they are
important. .The building is built to Code when they're
put up.
They create a lot less problems than the
older buildings create.
I think probably the best way -- I can
probably rattle on here for a long time and probably not
answer any of your questions. If somebody has a
question -- for a couple of minutes if they want to ask
any questions, maybe I can answer them for you.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Grant.
MR. KINGSFORD: Chief, what is the size of the
malls in square foot?
MR. McALLISTER: I don't have that exactly. But
we do have 66 stores in the two malls. '
MR. KINGSFORD: Are you familiar with the ~i
Cherry Plaza here; are they any larger than those at
Cherry Plaza?
MR. McALLISTER: Maybe Mario could answer that
question. If the larger store --
MR. YOU NT: About half -- roughly half the size
of the property we're talking about.
MR. McALLISTER: But, again, all of them are with
sprinklers. They do have both the stores there tied into,
alarm systems. And we have had no problems with it.
~ L ~
39
•
r
•
•
i
i
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Thank you.
PAUL QUONG,
came forward and continued his statement as follows:
MR. QUONG: Thank you, Chief McAllister.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we do have an
alternative also, if the City of Meridian does not want
an all-volunteer fire department; that will be presented
at a later time.
In closing my portion of the presentation, I
once again urge the City Council for annexation and
zoning of the Eagle Road site to give Meridian an
alternative for a regional shopping center.
I think that with the second site designated
as the enterprise area, Meridian will have a better
chance of getting a regional mall in the near future.
Thank you.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Okay. The next speaker will
be -- and when you come up, please repronounce your name
so we can get it right. It's Marvin Rebsin.
(No response.)
MAYOR GLAISYER: Okay. We will go down to
Jim Potter.
f ~ ~ !
40
•
•
•
•
E
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1~
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
JAMES V. POTTER,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. POTTER: Mayor Glaisyer and Councilmen, I am
one of Paul Quong's consultants. We have and would like
to submit to you this evening two documents.
One is a document which we submitted to the
Planning and Zoning Commission in July of this year
regarding the proposed comprehensive plan amendments.
This document includes excerpts from the Idaho Code
relating to the preparation of a comprehensive plan or
amendments and specific comments to several items at. the
request of the Planning and Zoning Commission and its
development and its relationship to those items.
This includes the developments, relationship
or impact to population, economic development, land use,
hookup facilities and services, transportation, housing,
community design, environmental considerations and
implementation.
Also in this document is some information
which basically has been repeated by Mr. Delisio
regarding the impact on the property tax.
It has in it our analysis of the property tax
implications for the City and the Meridian School
District, public testimony that was provided by a couple
A
41
r
1t
1
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
of people, particularly related to property tax and sales.
tax, and supporting documentations.
The second document which we will be
transmitting to you is this small document (indicating)
prepared by our firm this past couple of weeks. Its a
financial impact analysis of the estimated costs to the
City together with the estimated benefits.
This analysis is based on the folloa~ing:
The sewer and water extension requirements
were based on a study prepared by JUB Engineers for
Mr. Paul Quong in July of 1981 and the sizes were amended
to provide additional oversizing of the sewer mains as
has been previously discussed by the City.
The unit prices for the water and sewer were
obtained from McKay Construction Company.
The sewer and water hookup fees were based on
the wastewater flow analysis prepared by JUB Engineers in
1981 .
The permit fee was compiled from the City
ordinance.
The sewer and water user Fees were based upon
the JUB report.
The property tax revenues were drawn from our
analysis prepared from the information provided us from
the State Tax Commission.
•
42
i
•
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1- 8
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The sealer and water operation and maintenance
City operation and maintenance for these facilities.
The cost of increased "police" protection was
based on discussions with Officer Worley of the Boise
City Police Department, Planning Division, and it was
drawn from his analysis of impact for a regional mall in
Boise.
An additional officer and vehicle were added
beyond that that was deemed necessary by the City of
Boise.
Increased fire protection. We discussed this
with the Fire Chief of the City of Boise. His
suggestions as an alternative to what Mario presented
were that a part-time, full-member staff -- or, in other
words, part volunteer and part full-time -- could be
used; that if the City elected this method, that his
recommendations would be a full-time staff of six people
and the remainder of volunteers may be provided to the
full-time people at both stations on a 24 hour basis.
In addition to the recommendations made by
him we added in a squad car and a pumper truck beyond
what the department specified by him. He stated that
because of the mutual aid, contractual wager between the
various cities in Ada County, that some of that equipment
~ ' '
43
t
i
C-~
i
t
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
may not be necessary.
Our analysis indicates that the City of
Meridian could expect a benefit cost ratio of 1.86:1, or
$1.86 revenue for each dollar of costs that Eagle Road
mall would generate.
aJe have based this, dust in brief, on the
following: estimated construction costs of the sewer and
water to be extended to the Eagle Road mall site would be
approximately $794,000. Although no monetary figure was
assigned to this, the benefit to the City would be
significant by allowing additional industrial, commercial
and residential development to the east of the City at a
minimal off-site cost and be a significant aid in
balancing the general configuration of the City having
the opportunity to have growth at the east as well as the
growth you now have at the west.
The sewer and water estimated hookup fees
were taken from the JUB flow criteria, and the City's
ordinance amounts to approximately $797,000.
The building permit fees on $70-million,
according to the City ordinance, would be $175,000.
Those two -- the sewer and water and building
permit fee -- would total $972,000. If this amount were
invested in certificates of deposit at 12 percent, the
annual benefit for the City would be $117,000.
44
C7
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The sewer and water user fee, according to
the estimate prepared by JUB for a flow in the City
ordinance would amount to $128,000 A year.
The direct property tax increase would be
$75,000 a year.
To relate this back to our present situation
so that we have a direct relationship to taxes now,
assume that an increase revenue was available to the zero
effect bond election -- that is, to hold the present
assessment at a current level, rather than letting them
reduce it, you would have -- under the growth factor of
the one percent initiative, that would effectively be
reached at a $95,000 annual infringement.
Total annual estimated increase in revenue
would be $390,966 a year.
The estimated cash benefit of amenities
offered the City, excluding the freeway interchange,
would, therefore, be $450,000 a year.
The estimated savings to the City in interest
and principal if these amenities -- the fire station or a
truck, et cetera -- were acquired through an eight
percent bond election for thirty years would be $40,000 a
year.
The total annual benefits, excluding the
secondary economic benefits of the interchange and
45
i
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
utility extensions would be 8455,000 a year.
The cost to the City, sewer and water
operation and maintenance, estimated 824,000 a year.
Increase police protection adding, like I
say, the additional officer and a car, their estimate was
for West Park or the Maple Grove site, would be three
additional officers and one additional police car
properly equipped, less the differential.
And that would be an average of $90,000 a
year, less officer salary and burden rate differential --
that is, the Boise Police Department rate is slightly
higher than we do. And their benefits were slightly
more.
Then adding onto that, the vehicle cost and
operation, reducing that amount by the car and the
funding of that car, since Mr. Quong has offered to
provide it, that would add 883,000 a year to the Meridian
Police Department study.
Increased fire protection costs, if the City
did not elect to institute a student type course, four
volunteers and elected to go to part or full-time, adding
six full-time students at $11,000 each, one part time
•
23
24
25
secretary, five, salary burden rate at twenty percent, we
would have a salary cost of 885,000.
Out of that we have the squad car, 835,000,
~ ~
46
•
f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
another tanker pumper truck, $120,000, miscellaneous
equipment at $15,000, for $170,000.
This again would require at eight percent for
five years would be one hundred twenty-six -- or excuse
me, $41,000 a year for a total cost to the City of
$126,000 a year.
It also should be pointed out that the City
of Meridian and the City of Boise do have this mutual aid
contract which would negate their demand for certain of
this equipment.
The total benefits estimated to the City are
two hundred thirty-three -- cost, excuse me. Full cost
to the City would be $233,000 a year leaving a net
benefit to the City of $221,000 a year or a benefited
cost ratio of 1.36:1.
The total effect on the City budget of
•
i
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
$1,30,000 mould be an increase of non-allocated funds of
approximately 17 percent.
Also, I should point out that this income and
analysis does not include several other mayor types of
taxes that are a benefit to the City, such as sales tax
which is minor in its significance, liquor and tobacco
tax which could be very significant, revenue sharing fund,
adjustment, another minor but still significant factor in
the overall income of the City.
!~ ~ '
s
47
•
f
•
C7
i
1
z
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I would like to give each one of you a copy
of this, and I'll close.
MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker is
Roy Goodwin.
ROY GOODWIRI,
came forward and gave the following statement.
MR. GOODWIRI: Mayor and Councilmen, after hearing
all these figures I don't know if I can speak or not.
I dust wanted to say that I speak here as a
taxpayer and resident of Meridian since 1944. I was
elected on the Council in 1950 and spent two years, and I
know the position these boys are in.
And T would like to say tonight that I would
dust like to give my vote of thanks for their decision
and I know that they're going to make it for the benefit
of the people like me and you that have to pay the debt
from here on. And I'm not being envious of their
decision; they might have to pay for it.
Thank you.
MAYOR GLAISYER: W. J. Harbeck.
MR. HARBECK: I already spoke.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Oh, excuse me. All right.
Gordon Harris.
~ ~
48
•
C~
C7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. HARRIS: I didn't want to speak.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Don Storey.
DON STOREY,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. STORY: T urge you, the City Council, to
approve the changes in the Meridian comprehensive plan.
The A~leridian Planning and Zoning Commission,
their hard work on the comprehensive plan and their
designation of the interchange enterprise areas are to be
commended.
If plan changes are approved by the City
Council, the Eagle Road/T-84 enterprise area can become a
reality and Aleridian can reap the benefits of development
and community improvements in the form of a regional mall
or otherwise.
The Planning and Zoning Commission's
recommendation to you, the Council, should not been taken
lightly. They have studied this issue and taken much
into consideration.
I disagree with Mayor Glaisyer's attitude on
this very crucial development. It would seem to me that
he is betraying a trust in going against the
recommendation of the P&Z and the citizens of Meridian.
' '
~:
49
•
•
t
C1
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Meridian's leadership must take a positive
and decisive position and take care of these plans and
changes once and for all.
If the comprehensive plans are not approved,
Meridian will be set back twenty years or more, and
Meridian will end up a bedroom community.
The people of Meridian will be the ones to
benefit from the necessary comprehensive plan changes.
Thank you very much.
P~9AYOR GLATSYER: Si V~darden? Is that correct?
(No response.)
MAYOR GLATSYER: Vic "King"?
MR. KUNZ: Tt~s Kunz.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Kunz.
~ ~
50
•
i
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1.2
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
2 ~-
25
VICTOR KUNZ,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. KUNZ: Mayor, Councilmen, my name is
Victor Kunz, and I'm a long-time resident of the South
Eagle Road area. I'm about two miles south of this
location. After all the positive input tonight, it's
hard to add much relevant data, but I'd still like to
make some comparisons.
As you know, downtown is still active.
Nordstrom was in the news tonight. One of their
considerations is that nothing happens elsewhere first.
Nothing new.
It's been seventeen years in that making.
I believe the New Yorker magazine stated a
year ago in an article that Boise is the first town in
the western hemisphere that has committed suicide. I
hate to see a void for Meridian in that light.
west Park is probably a possible location.
If sufficient compromise is made, Boise will be forced to
embrace West Park.
It's close to what they want, and I think
that John Price is forceful enough that that location
would fly ff those people are willing to compromise and
make it happen.
~ i i
51
•
•
t
1
•
a
•
•
•
i
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
It is not a good location. It has a lot of
drawbacks as far as access. It's going to muddy up the
Franklin access. And it's going to be some time down the
road.
We have a possibility for a clean access site
at Eagle Road. It's not too far from Boise. In my
opinion, if there were an ofF ramp on the east side of
Boise up the free4ray, there's access for a location for a
mall to be made on the east side. People will go to the
freeway and go to the mall if it is within two or three
miles.
But this gives us an interchange at no cost
to the taxpayers, access to the road to McCall and a
benefit to the Boise area.
I went through the Sunday Statesman and
Larry Leisure's reasons for wanting tJest Park. And they
could apply to this site for Meridian's benefit as well
as they could apply to west Park for Boise's benefit.
I see the reasons that Meridian has given for
not wanting it, and they're the same reasons that Boise
wants it. T know it's a hard decision, and I know you
people are under a lot of pressure from different
sources.
No matter what you say, there are five
locations and four people are going to be unhappy with
. 1 ~
52
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
whatever is decided. But we need to compromise.
Seventeen years is too long. It needs to be
done. It's a good location. Meridian needs it. And I
don't think it will hurt downtown Meridian.
It's my request -- and I hope many of
yours -- that this will be accepted into the Meridian
plan.
P9AYOR GLAISYER: Thank you.
Next, I believe, is Kevin Loder.
KEVIN D. LODER,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. LODER: My name is Kevin Loder, and first of
all, I would like to ask the City Council: d~ihat's the
big problem?
We all fought so hard for the interchange at
Eagle Road, and why? 4~e want to get the traffic out of
downtown Meridian.
Now you hesitate to let the free enterprise
system work to determine where the regional mall should
go. Perhaps it's best to restrict our chances in
Meridian just to one location, and at that location, the
one that would bring more traffic to downtown than the
highway system would have ever brought.
•
•
•
•
•
C7
i
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24.
25
53
You know, let's reroute the traffic in
downtown Meridian to one way; let's put it one way down
Main Street and bring it back one way the other way and
let's just write off downtown all together.
T mean that sounds really good. It sounds
great. In fact, it sounds so intelligent it sounds like
downtown Boise.
And it seems like the respective Mayors are
playing the same role. And I'm trying to figure out who
is representing whom.
Now, if you're going to represent the
citizens of Meridian, don't try to fool us by voting
against something that we've said time and time and time
and again that we want. You have heard the testimony at
numerous public hearings on what the people want. But
yet you seem to want to delay things.
And I don't want to point to you
specifically, because I know there is a lot of political
pressure that's been involved.
And the delays have been ridiculous; we have
had one right after the other, like I have said. The
political maneuvering has been unprecedented. Nothing in
Meridian has ever reached this level before.
The deception has been uncalled for and it's
really unacceptable on this level.
54
•
•
•
C
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
3
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I mean look at the mockery of the Planning
and Zoning Commission; four members resigning all at the
same time, all with the same reasons: The regional mall
controversy, the Quong-Watkins annexation. Their role in
planning and zoning had been reduced to a 3oke, and they
knew it. And that~s why they resigned.
The services of these four commissioners is
gone. They didn~t want to waste their time anymore. T
mean after the aspiring politicians who got their toes
stepped on and that are now the same ones that are
dead-set on evening the score.
T mean revenge. What a marvelous moral
ethic. I mean its one that we should all live by, and
die by. Or maybe they should live by and they should die
by.
Well, this is a public hearing and the public
has spoken before and its speaking again tonight.
The Transportation Soard wasn~t swayed with
their decision. They chose Eagle Road. Donut let it
sway you. Donut let Mr. Nahas or P9r. Simon or
dir. Glaisyer or all of the attorneys and any of the other
schemers sway you.
Mr. Nahas said June ? that within 45 to 60
days we would hear the good news. And you know what; we
sure chid.
t ~
55
•
•
•
•
C~
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
We heard that Penney's, ZCN1T and Lamont's all
committed to Mr. Price's site.
Let's wake up before Boise steals the show.
They are dust now pulling their heads out of the sand
after 17 years of hassles, and now it's getting all
screwed up again with the Nordstrom and The Bon wanting
to go downtown.
Now they don't know where they're going to
go. They're going to have the blue ribbon committee come
in with a totally opposite opinion on what they should do
downtown.
Mayor Eardley, you know he's .going to push
for downtown development with the mall. So we still have
a little bit of time.
But we have already lost a lot of time.
Meridian needs the mall. Your decision on the annexation
isn't going to decide where the mall goes. The free
enterprise system is. All you are doing is giving
Meridian another choice.
You know, with all these conditions attached
to this annexation, if Paul Quong doesn't perform, we
haven't lost anything.
But if all we have is the Nahas site and he
doesn't perf orm, we lost the mall.
So I ask you, What's the big problem?
~ 1 ~
•
•
•
•
•
i
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
56
Well, I'll tell you what the big problem is.
Mayor Eardley has made Boise a laughing stock with the
mayor retailers. And now you're letting our mayor make a
mockery out of Meridian.
Please take the initiative to stop this
fiasco and get the show on the road. The vote will be
close, but the public will see who is really representing
their interests and who is representing themselves.
Thank you.
MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker is
Doris Oliason.
DORIS OLIASON,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MS. OLIASON: Mr. Mayor, City Council members, I
would certainly hope that you gentlemen do not have
preconceived ideas about how you're going to vote tonight
like the County Commissioners and Boise City Council
people did on the Emission Control Program.
Because they had already voted for it at the
APA level, which is the regional level, so they had to
hold a public hearing, which I considered a sham, because
the Ada Planning Association is a regional agency, it's
another way of government over a constitutional
L
57
•
•
•
•
•
C7
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
- 10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
13
19
20
21
22
23
2~
25
government, and so they had to hold a public hearing at
the lower level, which is what cae still think we operate
under in this country.
And so that's why they held a hearing. But,
you see, they already applied for the federal grant to
get the program going.
Now, I say this and I mention this because I
guess I have in-built suspicions about public officials,
as much as I love them.
Now, I want to bring out some things tonight
that I think you people should be made aware of. And I
might say if you wonder where I get all my facts and
figures, I do research work. And it's very interesting
where A leads you to before you get to Z. You always
come up with the answer. And you have to do a little
digging.
And I have some information here tonight, and
T also do research for legislators, for the Idaho
legislature. And I have got loads of files, and I should
get rid of a lot of them, I guess.
But anyway, I have been trying for two years
to get the total amount of money that has been spent for
downtown Boise, and I want to bring out a few facts to
you because the reason we are here tonight and the reason
we have been here at every hearing is because of the
~ i ~
58
•
•
•
C~
•
•
•
C7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
State Land Use law and the mess it gets us in, plus Boise
is responsible for the mess we're in here in Meridian in
trying to get something like this through.
Now, I have tried for two years to find out
from the federal government how much money has been
allocated for Boise, Idaho, for the downtown development.
For two years I have not been able to get
that information because it is such a mess that nobody
knows how much anything is.
Well, the other day through Senator Steve
Simms' office, I managed to get something that they
haven't given me before, although I have a stack of
material from the BRA that is about a foot high; but I do
happen to have this. And maybe you all have it; I don't
know. I didn't have it.
But Senator Simms sent me this, and it's the
Financial Background and History of Urban Renewal in
Boise, Idaho. Okay.
1Vow, I want to start out with this; that
since you people have decided that our farms should be
the location of the interchange for the benefit of you,
the public, it gives me and my family rather great
concern with the economy getting worse all the time, that
the way they have plotted or platted or whatever you want
to call it, the off-ramp off of Eagle Road to our farm,
•
59
•
•
i
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
92
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
we're going to come out the losers.
It's going to be a long stretch. It's going
to go through about three-fourth of the half mile. And
it's going to come out on the other side the same way.
And then on the west side we're going to have some sort
of a loop thing. Okay.
The State Transportation is holding off on
what they're going to do pending what you people are
going to do. So they're sitting there waiting, and so we
don't know what to do. And naturally we're interested,
before they level our house out there.
Nora, Larry Leisure at lJest Park -- you know,
the City Council is going to have a little hearing and
try to figure out what it's going to do with him. But it
is my opinion from my observations and from my contact
with various people -- when I was on the Planning
Commission i saw lots of things.
And it is my opinion that anything Larry
Leisure wants, Larry Leisure gets. So I have no doubt in
my mind but that 6Jest Park will be approved. Now, you've
got to understand, Folks, politics plays a big game here
in all of this stuff.
Now, this thing also says that Boise and the
County Commissioners cooperate very, very closely. I
would say the County Commissioners have cooperated so
~ i ~
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
60
closely with Boise City, that they've given Boise City
everything it wants with their cooperation.
And on page 25, to prove that I'm not just
talking through my h'at, it says here: The influence of
urban renewal in Boise has been considerable and ongoing.
It has generated better rapport and communication betwee n
the principal local government entities. The elected
officials of Ada County and Boise City produce a
steadfastly backed comprehensive plan that pinpoints
downtown Boise as a location for the Boise trade area
Now, another thing you've got to
understand -- and I brought this out before, but I want
to refresh your mind -- is that the urban renewal
complex, the part they want to develop -- and I'm not
talking about a whole urban renewal area, but the urban
renewal complex that Wynmar got and half a dozen others,
by judicial order has been taken off the tax rolls.
And so any of you living in Ada County,
unless you're off in some other county or some other
State, have been picking up the tab for that part that is
exempt by judicial order.
In other words, Boise has not been paying the
tax load.
But the County Treasurer has to have
61
•
•
•
•
C
CJ
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
1u
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
X number of dollars to run all the services you want in
Ada County. So you have had to pay the bill.
I did research on this for the legislature,
and as closely as I could come by the cooperation of the
assessor's office, or he with me, was $5-million in taxes
that we have had to pay that downtown Boise has been
exempt from in 1978. These were the figures.
You add on the escalating figure of inflation
and, as I testified before the legislature last year, it
was assumed that it could be $8-million that we had to
pay.
And so that's why -- one of the reasons your
taxes are going up, plus a few more things.
Now, on page 12 they mention that -- to back
up what I say -- since property acquired by the BRA from
private ownership were taken off the tax rolls, the
revenue lost thereby became an expense to the City
directly attributable to the urban renewal project. And
listen to this: HUD considered it a cash contribution to
the gross project cost. Interesting.
Now, two years ago I called Los Angeles, and
I talked to the manager of one of the biggest store
chains in America, as I understand it, and he said at
that time they had -- nora, this is when the economy was
even better.
~ ~ i
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
62
He said they had no interest in coming to
Boise, into downtown Boise.
I have also called LJashington, D.C., Portland
and Seattle and some other cities, getting information.
And it really is interesting what you get out of those
places.
Now, I want to show you very briefly
something else here.
Now, on page 22, if I might beg your
indulgence here for just a little bit, now, this comes
from the BRA, and it is entitled, Project Completion.
According to the developer, who was 4dynmar
when this was written, starting construction of the Boise
City Center is tied for the national economy.
Prospective department store anchors are not expected to
commit to the project until lower interest rates are
encouraged barring for expansion. Then commitments will
be forthcoming and construction can begin.
Reasonable optimism permits the prediction
that construction can start by mid- to late 1982. This
means the center can be completed and open by mid-1984.
Therefore, projections of the expenditures necessary to
complete the downtown project there is considerable
significance.
Current estimates are -- and I want you to
63
•
•
i
7
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1?
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Current estimates are that total public and
private costs -- private costs, it says, too -- to see
the pro~eet through, will be more than x100-million. The
public costs mainly for parking facilities will amount to
about one quarter of that.
So, you see, they expect to get you into
downtown Boise, when they get it developed.
Realization of the urban renewal goal can
bring economic benefits that will let the good times roll
right off into the 21st Century in Boise.
You see, they are really optimistic here.
For example, money earmarked f or the
construction period, public and private, will multiply
itself many times by creating at least five hundred
worker fobs. Dollars for materials and equipment cai11 be
multiplied also through local supplier and subcontractor
channels.
In addition to the immediate economic.
stimulus of this massive construction project, continuing
benefits can be expected from operation of the completed
Boise City Center. When it opens for business,
approximately 1,500 to 2,000 full and part time jobs will
be created generating a yearly payroll of at least
X10-million to enrich the local economy.
~ 1 ~
64
i
~7
f
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The greater share of area retail sales it is
expected to capture is an added bonus.
Finally, the high evaluation resulting from
development improvements will strengthen the City tax
base, and so on and so forth.
Now, -- okay. Boise has been trying to
develop for, what is it, going on 18 years, and here they
right this kind of a thing.
Now, since Boise -- since 6Jynmar is pulling
out -- but he's still dreaming a little bit though, you
know. He's been contacting some stores.
But since idynmar -- you know, it seems like
he can't pull out. And we've got this committee now
trying to revitalize downtown Boise. And you've got
Larry Leisure out here a little bit this side of Boise,
and I'm sure he's going to get what he wants.
What is really going to happen to downtown
Boise? Now, I want you folks to understand, I didn't
want to tear down downtown Boise, and it sounds like I am
attacking them, and I am. I have been for 20 years.
I wrote a letter to the editor, and I still
have it for the Meridian paper, way back in 1962 I think
it was, objecting to urban renewal. The whole theory of
it has been a miserable failure filled with graphs and
Greek and everything else all over the nation.
~ ~ i
65
•
•
•
i
•
C~
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Once in a while it works, but it isn't too
Now, I want to go to something else. In a
letter from HUD to Senator Simms, it says hear that: ~~~e
are writing in response to your letter of October 22,
1982 in which you request information for a constituent,
the litany, regarding the total amount of federal funds
that have been given to the Boise urban renewal project.
From 1969 through 1980, the downtown
redevelopment project received a total of X36,823,912
from the following HUD programs.
Now, Folks, the reason I bring all this out ',
is because this is your tax money, plus the fact you have
been paying the tab for downtown Boise, tax exempt
status. This whole program in downtown Boise has cost us
nothing but money, and what do they have to show for it.
Now, I don't know whether Paul Quong is going
to use some federal grants or not for his program. I
have never heard him say so. But if he is going to
develop his project -- and T want you to bear in mind,
the State and federal government is going to take our
place anyway. It doesn't make any difference what
happens to our farm. That's not why I'm up here. I
don't really want to lose it.
But if Paul Quong is going to use private
~ ~ ~
r1
U
66
~,
u
~~
J
>y
r,
:~
•
.,
u
-,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
money to develop this complex that he has here, and since
downtown Boise has been a miserable failure, and since
there is room for ~~Jest Park if he wants in there, since
Boise - - downtown Boise can't make it, and if Quong wants
to make it, what's the matter with private enterprise?
Half a dozen shopping centers, if somebody
has got the money to bring them in. But with the economy
like it is, they're not going to get here.
And downtown Boise is not going to get the
stores from what I've been able to find out. And they
have given me their reasons, and they're not all
publicized in the paper. And you're not always getting
the truth through the Statesman either.
So anyway, I dust wanted to bring these
figures out for you because T don't think they're really
public knowledge., how much money has been spent for
downtown Boise.
And, Paul, are you going to get some federal
grants for your project?
R~IR. QUONG: I don't believe in it.
r9S. OLIASON: He said he doesn't believe in it.
47e11, thank you, Gentlemen. Like I said, I
want to end up and~say again, PAayor Glaisyer, T hope you
people don't have preconceived ideas about what you're
going to do and we're dust coming here for nothing
a
•
67
•
•
•
•
•'
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
tonight.
However, I must say I share your concern for
the expense to the taxpayer. But Ism concerned about the
expenses generated already from downtown Boise. I don't
see how this could be any worse.
Thank you very much.
MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker is
D~.ek Williams. -
RICHARD C. WILLIAMS,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. WILLIAMS: PRy name is Dick Williams. T live
at 917 Storey Avenue here in Meridian. And I guess the
way it looks, Ism the third person here to testify
tonight that actually lives in the City.
Ind like to address both the comprehensive
plan changes and the proposed annexation. I hope to make
it brief and concise.
On June 30th, 1882 I wrote the Meridian P&Z
Commission a letter expressing my objections to the
amendment to~the comprehensive plan. I attached a copy
of that letter for your reading.
Basically, though, I urge you at this time to
delay on the proposed amendments any action until you
~ ~ ~
68
r-,
u
J
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
have completed your area of impact negotiations with
Ada County and the City of Boise.
I feel that this is a must so that you don't
wind up reinventing the wheel, and I know you are close
to that area of impact decision.
Secondly, in all my years in the City
government I have never seen or heard of a more tortured
annexation request to a city entity than the annexation
request proposed by Quong-1~Jatkins to the City of
Meridian.
This annexation request will destroy
Meridian's rural buffer areas. It contorts the City's
boundaries, bisects the City into nearly two separate
entities, and I believe will be financially devastating
to such a degree that it will endanger the City's ability
to provide basic services to its present inhabitants.
As a City resident and former City Council
member, T have taken a great interest in these
proceedings leading up to the final City Council hearing
tonight on the amendments to the comprehensive plan and
the annexation request.
I have read the Pd~Z Commission's request of
findings of fact and conclusions and P~Z's
recommendations to the City.
I must take some strong issues to their
~ ~ i
69
•
•
•
•
C7
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
2~
25
recommendation as well as to certain of their full
findings and conclusions.
My comments are specifically as follows;
No. 1, Orderly Growth and Development. It is
my firm opinion that there is simply no way this
annexation can be reasonably assumed to be used for
Meridian's orderly development. All one needs to do is
look at a map of the proposed annexation.
The property in the annexation proposal is a
snake configuration down the freeway. How can you get
any semblance of orderly development out of an annexation
request which must jump the freeway four times and
Eagle Road once just to remain, quote, contiguous.
Second of all is, Control of Eagle Road.
There has been much speculation and professed desire by
the P&Z Commission and a lot of people in Meridian to
annex the Eagle Road simply to have the City of Meridian
gain control over this area. In P&Z's own conclusions,
they said it would be in the best interests of the City
to annex the area so that they would get control over the
area.
This misperceived need to annex to gain
control flies in the very face of P&Z's conclusions and
their finding of fact, and finding of fact with Idaho
lata.
~ L ~
?0
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
u
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
As we all know, the statute of the Idaho Code
i
requires the City of Boise and Meridian and Ada County to
negotiate each other's respective areas of impacts.
Once this negotiation is completed, then
Meridian will have complete control over when those uses
of the land that their area of impact is, and they will
be able to regulate all future development.
Now the City of Meridian is being asked to
annex some 350 acres of prime agricultural land when the
uses of that land are not completely known.
No. 3, Maybe Develop, I feel, is a definite
harm to the City of Meridian.
Even if one were to assume that this annexed
area were to be developed as proposed, the cost to the
City is astronomical and most harmful to this small
community's financial structure. As a citizen, I am
alarmed at the potential costs.
Assuming the proposed development occurs, the
initial capital costs to the City for fire protection
could reach well over a million dollars for new buildings
and equipment.
Even if the developer were to pay the costs
as evidenced by the P&Z's Commission, quote, requirements
of the developer, these costs are only X375,000, leaving
the City -- that's you and me -- to come up with an
~ J
CJ
71
•
•
1
2
3
4
official $625,000 for the first year.
In addition, the City runs a possible risk of
over $500,000 per year in fire costs for manpower,
repair, maintenance and et cetera.
•
C
•
•
•
•
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
z3
24
25
This is a Maybe Development: The Planning
and Zoning Commission after it recognizes that the whole
development of this proposed annexation is maybe at best,
i
the P&Z~s Commission did also conclude that the proposals,
of a petitioner are only that; proposals. And there is
no guarantee of development or use.
This is No. 33 of their conclusion.
Planning and Zoning then went on to conclude
that, quote, It is in the best interest of the City to
provide some mechanism whereby the area is not annexed
and zoned until evidence of this development is shown.
This very mechanism was provided to the City by agreement
with t~1r. Quong in 1 g81 .
I find it hard to believe that P&Z omitted
from its findings of fact, certain pertinent facts, which
aaere introduced into evidence by myself before the P&Z.
These facts are:
One, Paul Quong entered into an agreement
with the City of Meridian.
That this agreement was titled
Acknowledgement of Developer's Intent.
~ ,
72
•
C
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Three, that this agreement was entered into
on January 15, 1981.
Four, that this agreement provided that
Paul Quong will not initiate annexation proceedings,
quote, until developer has obtained signed letters of
intent from the major tenants for the shopping center,
unquote.
And, five, that it is a fact that Paul Quong
has, in fact, no signed letters of intent from any major
tenants.
I was the president of the City Council when
this agreement was signed. This agreement was entered
into at the specific request of Mr. Quong. It was
entered into in good faith by the City. Mr. Quong has
clearly violated this agreement.
EJere this agreement adhered to, we would not
now be faced with an annexation request based on pure
speculation as to development uses in that annexation.
tide would not have to face an annexation which
brould, quote, self-destruct in three years. Why go
through all this expense, arork, pain, division of the
City for something that may never happen.
This agreement we signed in 1981 was entered
into to prevent this very occurrence we are now debating.
These facts alone plus the P~Z~s above stated conclusion
~ ~ ~
73
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
C7
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
alone justify the City Council in denying the
Quong-~datkins annexation request.
There is more, but I think that if you read
it, you will find out what some of the specifics are as
far as the points of P&Z's recommendations and
conclusions. 1
I also have a concern about .downtown
Meridian. We have heard tonight that the proposed
annexation will not have any effect on the downtown
development. I question what will happen if the mall is
developed only two and a half miles from the City center.
I am very concerned about the livelihoods and
investments of our business community that now pays taxes',
if the mall is developed at Eagle Road. I feel Old Town
would be a very, very correct description of that area,
because it would ruin it.
Also, I would like to address one comment
that was made earlier regarding the water and sewer
hookup fees.
As a sewer commissioner for four years prior
to this, I would like to make a correction and say that
the sewer hookup fees that are paid by any developer must
be used to repay the bonds. You cannot invest ~,-ith
excess money and earn interest rates higher than the bond
rates. This is called arbitrage. And it is illegal.
• ~ '
7'+
•
•
•
•
•
•
C~
•
1
2
3
~#
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
2 ~1
25
In summary, the Quong-b~atkins annexation will
be financially devastating to the City with or without
any development of the proposed mall. Therefore, I feel
that the annexation is not in the best interests of the
City of Meridian and that the annexation request be
denied by the City Council.
MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker will be
Marvin Bodine.
l~1ARUIN BODINE,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. BODINE: My name is Rlarvin Bodine. I live at
917 Camellia Street; not tell miles from h1eridian or a
couple thousand miles. But I have lived here in Meridian
for over 50 years. And Ism pretty proud of the City.
And Ism damned. proud of our mayor; I think
weave got a good mayor. And I sure give him my support.
And by the way, Dick, you~re a hard act to
follow. You did a real good fob. It is the most
complete report that weave had all night, as far as I am
concerned. It was real good.
But to go on with what I want to say, I voted,
for you, Joe, to run the City; I didn't vote for Quong; I
didn't vote for anybody else. But I voted for Joe. And
~ i
~ 1
2
3
• ~
5
6
• 7
8
9
~ 10
11
12°
~ 13
14
15
~ 16
17
18
~ 19
20
21
~ 22
23
24
~ 25
•
75
I think you have done a good fob.
ale have heard one fella speak on the Fire
Department a little while ago. I know that Boise State
lost to Moscow, to Idaho, with their football team, but
Ism not ready to see -- Ism not ready to see us hire
Boise City boys part time or have a part-time fire
department.
Doth of our fire departments have been on the
force for 23 years, a good many years. And they~re
trained. They do a good fob.
I donut want a five-year department, or a
four-year at the very most I guess I should say,
protecting my wife and children.
Somebody also mentioned earlier about -- Ism
trying to think back; I get myself worked up too much
(laughter).
Maybe it was a lie. I~11 go on.
Ism sorry. I donut need that (indicating)
thing, anyway.
But anyway, there is no way in the world
Meridian can afford the Quong annexation. The money that
he offers as far as building the interchange was not the
full amount of the interchange. The money that~s been
offered for a fire department is not the full cost to
build the fire department.
76
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
C~
1 I was on the group that studied for the
2 Meridian Chamber of Commerce on the interstate highway
3 and where it should go. And at no time were we told that
4 should we give any thought towards the shopping mall
5 being located there that's had any bearing on the road
6 coming through there.
7 This was put into our mind by the people from
8 Texas that were hired by the State to study it. The
g shopping mall would have no bearing whatsoever.
10 Now, it's been reflected tonight that it did
11 have a bearing. But this is not true. They told us that
12 there was no bearing whatsoever, if the shopping mall
13 would be there or it wouldn't.
14 Consequently, I feel that there is no way in
15 the world that we can afford the shopping mall at
16 Eagle Road. And I hope that it won't come to that.
17 MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker is Ron Nahas.
18
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
C~
77
C~
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
3
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
RON NAHAS,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. NAHAS: Ladies and Gentlemen, P~embers of the
City Council, my name is Ron Nahas; Ism here representing
the Nahas family. In case there is any confusion, we own
the site on Meridian Road.
We bought that site in 1972. We came into
the town of Meridian and looked at it, bought the site
because it was zoned for a regional shopping center, and
it was dedicated by this City Council for that purpose.
UJe felt that it would reinforce the existing
development patterns of Meridian, that it would protect
the quality of resale in downtown Meridian. And we think
so today, that it will do all those things.
Fortunately, this evening we have a lot of
testimony regarding the impact that will fall on
Meridian.- The question before the City Council is not
' what the impact of this comprehensive zoning --
comprehensive plan change is going to have on department
stores.
The question is: What impact is it going to
have on P~ieridian. And we in the process of our
discussions with the department stores, which are going
on weekly at this time, they are going on between the
~ ~
~ 1
2
3
~ ~
5
6
~ 7
8
9
~ 10
11
12
~ 13
14
15
~ 16
T
18
~ 19
20
21
~ 22
23
24
~ 25
•
78
Simons, our partners in this pro,~ect, and the department
stores.
ode undertook to examine all of the alternate
sites including the Meridian site. In order to get the
best possible information, we hired an expert firm from
Chicago, Camiros, a firm that specializes in working for
the municipalities to determine fiscal impacts. Seventy
percent of their clients are with municipalities. They
have done over one hundred of these studies in cities
across the United States.
Currently they are specializing in the fiscal
impact of municipalities of real estate development;
primarily regional malls.
Now, we have with us this evening
Jaques Gourguechon representing -- or Jaques, if you
prefer the French pronunciation -- representing Camiros.
He is a graduate with an Economics Degree
from Michigan State. He has a Master's Degree in City
Planning and Regional Planning from Illinois Institute of
Technology.
He is a member of the American Institute of
Certified Planners, and he has been doing this type of
consulting work for 15 years.
Jaques has come to Idaho; he has studied
Idaho Tax Law. He has studied the City of Meridian,
?9
•
•
•
•
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
talked to people of the City of Meridian; also in the
City of Boise and other proposed regional shopping cente r
sites.
I would like to take this opportunity to
introduce Jaques and have him come up and give you his
perspective on the costs of the Eagle Road annexation for
the City of Meridian, and the relative costs between that
site and the one which is currently and still designated
in the comprehensive plan -- that's the one on Aeridian
Road -- for the regional site. °
So, Jaques?
JAQUES GOURGUECHON,
came forward and gave the following statement:
A1R. GOURGUECHON: I would like to set this up so
that both the City Council and members of the audience
can see it and hope for the best that this easel will
hold.
I think if T put this up, everybody can have
a better shot at it.
Again, my name is Jaques Gourguechon. I am
with the consulting firm of Camiros, Limited in Chicago.
4Je are a firm that runs and specializes in consulting to
municipalities, and we also work for private developers
t
80
•
•
•
i
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
as well as to municipalities.
Our experience across the country with regard
to this issue is one cahich is directly related to the
development of cost revenue assessments; that is, to
understand how the imposition or placement of usually
major land use developments will affect the budget of its
host communities.
In this case, we originally came to Meridian
two years ago. It was a very similar assignment; at that
time it was the request of Dayton-Hudson Company.
And at that time we did extensive research
which resulted in this 150 page report that took a look
at the land .u se impact, the fiscal impact and the impact
on the consumer market in the Meridian area.
And at that time it was a comparable study of
the Treasure Valley site, or the site of the Meridian
Road intersection, and the proposed site at Eagle Road.
With the Quong-Watkins annexation, we were
requested to come back and update that study and to look
at it now not in terms of simply a comparison of one
shopping center site versus another, but to answer the
question which has been posed. And I haven't heard that
in the projection of data in cost tonight.
What is being projected here is the
annexation of 347 or 350 acres of land. It's not just a
i ~
u
81
•
:7
.~
u
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
1~
15
16
17
18
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
shopping center that is going to affect the police, fire
department, sewer and water -- provision of the sewer and
water services, and so on.
It's the annexation of all that land, each of
those property owners, future homeowners or commercial
businesses that do locate there, all have equal access to
the services of the City.
And so in assessing this, we had to look at
the entire impact of the annexation; not simply the
impact of the proposed shopping center.
That's the assignment, and I'll give you the
results of that, and I'll try to be brief.
I think that it's incumbent on me, however,
to discuss a little bit with you about the methodology
because you have heard a number of different proposals
tonight, a number of different assessment data.
The clearest and cleanest gray to do a study
of this type -- and there are all kinds of different
formulas, some of which deal with ratios and assessed
evaluation; others which deal with per capita cost, that
means we have so much cents or percentage of cents of
police costs per capita.
All those are very interesting and
theoretical. But what it gets down to, a real clear
assessment of costs, is a case study method. And that
~ - ~
82
•
•
7
~~
:~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
is, Whatts going on in the community at present.
We have heard tonight about systems of
providing services at Moscow, systems of providing
services in Boise. Those are all very interesting
models; they~re interesting theories.
But the issue here is what the impact is on
Meridians services. And the case study approach looks
at exactly what the case is in 1~leridian. In other words,
we're not dealing with the theoretical; we are dealing
with a police department that is currently over capacity.
Were not dealing with a police department
that has a lot of room for additional activities to come
in without expanding the staff.
Were not dealing with a City that has a
university adjacent to its downtown; were dealing with
Meridian, Tdaho that has a long history of operating a
volunteer fire department. °
So the case study methodology does two
things: It looks at what the existing systems of
delivering services are, and particularly what the
existing capacity is. Is their existing excess capacity
to expand the City through this annexation and provide
those services in a cost-effective way, or Is there not
that existing capacity? Are we now over capacity and
have to double the interest structure and corresponding
~ ~ ~
83
•
G
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
costs?
And this is the approach that was taken in
our analysis.
The analysis is also a modeling exercise.
And I want to bring that outright from the start, because
there is no way to project the future. I mean City
planners pride themselves on being future thinkers.
UJell, in reality, we deal with what I hope is
organized foresight. L^Jhether we're dealing with fiscal
impacts or whether were dealing with plans, and this is
a model. The exact costs are going to be dealt with on a
year-to-year basis.
But we think it is an honest assessment of
what the likely impacts will be, and certainly it's done
with a system of common sense, and I think if I walk you
through this, you will see that.
What it does is, it tries to say, If we have ,
this development on-line, what would it cost us to
service for a year. And that is, it's an analysis year.
~)e take a typical year and say, If this were on-line in
1881 -- given the tax rates in 1881, given the way our
police department is structured in 1981 -- what would it
have cost us.
Well, we know it will never be in 1981; it
will be, if at ever, realized in 1983 or -4, or something
fl
--~
~~
84
.,
.~
~~
U
s
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
like that.
But it's a good way of looking at what the
likely costs will be.
The other thing I wanted to distinguish here,
there are two kinds of costs involved. There are
one-time costs. A sewer hookup fee or a tap-on fee is a
one-time cost -- or a one-time revenue to the City.
A building permit fee is a one-time revenue
to the City. You get it one time and one time only.
There are also certain one-time costs
associated. You have to build a fire station; it's a
one-time cost. You have to buy certain pieces of
equipment; until that piece of equipment wears out, it's
a one-time cost.
On the other hand, there are continuing
costs. If you have to hire six new policemen, they have
to be paid each and every year; not just the first year.
The critical costs we are looking at in this
analysis are the continuing costs, because this is the
cost which Meridian is committing itself to. These are
the ongoing costs.
Now, the last point I would like to make
before I take you through this is that the State of Idaho
has passed a series of tax laws which make it unique in
the country. There is at present no other State in the
~ ~ ~
35
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
i6
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
country that I know of -- and T'm quite sure I'm
right -- that has quite the setup for local government
taxation that Idaho has,.
Usually, one can come in and do the study and
with a big smile say to the community, This regional
shopping center is going to bring you X hundreds of
thousands of dollars of revenue a year, and your costs
are going to be only one-quarter of that.
That's not the case in Idaho. Idaho has
structured its State tax laws so that the City cannot
raise its budget by property tax more than five percent a
year. All of the numbers that you have been hearing
about in terms of how much taxes are going to be paid are
true.
You can pay the taxes, but you can't raise
the City budget. ~~That it does is lower the tax rate for
everyone else. The problem is, that that new unit, that
regional shopping center wherever it is located, on
h9eridian Road or on Eagle Road, simply the services that
it demands cannot be recaptured by the revenues that are
generated.
And that's not because it doesn't have the
potential; it's because of the way the State laws are set
up.
Now, we, too, work extensively with the State
~ L ~
86
i
i
•
•
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
95
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Tax Commission, looking not only at what presently exists
but also what the tax history of the one-percent
initiative was and has been and what is likely to happen
in the future. And it's apparent to people who have been
involved in research at the Tax Commission that it is not
going to change in the near future.
So as unrealistic as I think it is from a
planning point of view, from the point of view of a City
Planner in trying to see how this community and other
communities are going to operate their municipality, I
think you have got to live with this fact for Suite a
while.
Let me talk about some of the costs
specifically.
Let me, before that, give you a little
background on the annexation, because it's an important
question. I'm going to try to talk loud so I can use the
chart. If anybody in the back can't hear me, just raise
your hand, and I'll shout louder.
The annexation that has been requested is an
extensive one that involves approximately 350 acres and
could be varied from that. And it runs from a point west
of Locust Grove Road to a point near contiguing with the
City of Meridian out to the Quong-Watkins site which is
shown in that blue-black cross pattern.
~ i ~
87
i
f
t
Ci
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
As you can see, it creates a long corridor of
land which stretches along Interstate 84.
In total, from this (indicating) point here
to the Quong-Watkins site, is approximately a mile and
four-tenths.
The other point down here (indicating) is the
existing zone shopping center site which is the Nahas
site.
Now, in doing our studies, we took a look at
the impact of that entire 350 acre parcel of land, or
series of parcels of land. Its particularly important
because it requires taking municipal services south of
the freeway on a continuing basis that turned out to be
not quite as bad as we thought it would be. But it still
is a substantial cost.
In addition to that, the provision of sewer ~!
and water service down to those areas becomes an
extremely sensitive undertaking because at least two
passes have to be made under that freeway in order to get
it there. But those are costs that will be absorbed by
the developers of those parts of the land.
In order to take a look at what the revenue
impact would be, we have to assume land uses for the
various parcels in the annexation. And in doing so, we
took a look at not only the plans of the community but
1 ~
88
r
•
•
•
•
a
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
assessed valuation records, the market for comrercial
development and the pattern in terms of development in
the P~leridian area.
Based on that, we came up with two scenarios
of land use. The scenario is just a best-guess look at
what's going to happen.
One of those, assume that the shopping center
at Eagle Road would go ahead, and if it did obviously
there would be spin-off developments along Eagle Road and
other types of developments along Overland.
In extending that work, we developed, in
effect, in looking at the future as what the land uses
would likely be. It's our conclusion that, given the
market and access points, that your spin-off development
would be primarily along Eagle Road both north and south
of the freeway. And naturally it would extend on other
parcels outside the annexation, but since we're
addressing the annexation itself, we haven't shown that.
t^Je do not anticipate there would be extensive
commercial development along Overland Road, because it is
out of the direction of traffic flow and that it would
not be a natural place to develop ancillary community
convenience centers.
And I think the commercial zoning that's been
i ~ ~
89
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
and would tend to lead to strip development.
A residential development pattern would be
more appropriate for that area regardless of whether the
shopping center develops or not.
There is a force of likelihood that a
shopping center may not be realized at that location and
may go elsewhere. If the annexation goes ahead, that
will not change the fact that this land will be in the
City of Meridian. And so we had to take a look at what
the cost impact could be, given that set of
circumstances.
And for this circumstance, we also had to
develop some land uses in order to check the market
value for assessment purposes of that land in order to
take a look at what revenue there would be and what
types of land uses would be there and on that basis
fudge what types of municipal services would be
required.
And this (indicating) map indicates the
results of that set of studies.
Our findings, Ism afraid, are not clever.
There fs no one good solution as far as municipal cost
revenue goes. There is not one bad site or one good
site. And I think the comparison here is an essential
one for the City Council to make their decision.
~ i
90
•
•
•
1
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The provision of the police services is a
critical one in any City. And it's usually the service
which. has the highest budget line item; it's the service
which is most highly valued in almost every community.
The basis for our development of the costs
that are shown on this chart come from extensive work
throughout the country. I think it is an unusual
circumstance that one of my client communities is
Schaumburg, Illinois where I had been a City Planner for
the last eight years.
Schaumburg was mentioned earlier as a close
community for jaoodfield Mall. And a number of the
figures and cost factors that have been taken into
account here come from a study of an eight-year history
of 4Joodfield Mall itself.
That history shows us a number of things:
the types of police service that can be accommodated as
usually called for at regional malls, the types of
services that are needed, and can project a demand, if
you will, a demand for police services, in terms of calls
for service and for patrol by the police department.
That's one side of the equation.
The other side is, How are things currently
set up at Meridian to provide that to meet that demand.
The situation in Peridian at present is as follows:
• a
91
•
•
C~
•
•
•
r
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
1q
20
21
22
23
24
25
The police department, according to the Chief
of Police, is stretched to the limit currently with no
mall development without one additional house. He feels
that even now one or two extra policemen would be
justified.
Given the way the police department is set
up, the way the patrols are set up, that a regional mall
in ~9eridian, regardless of where it is located, would
require six additional men.
That is in response to provide protection,
not to the mall particularly, but to make .sure that on a
24 hour basis there are two patrol cars available in the
City at all times, because in this projected call for
service of two per day at any time you have to have
available one car to be directed to the large regional
mall where youtre going to have severe calls for service
on occasion and still have an extra car to service the
rest of the City.
Its not particularly the number of calls
that you have to respond to; its the fact of having a
backup to service the entire City.
The question of two calls per day is an
interesting one. Actually, the projection of this, based
on our data base, comes out to be 2.41 calls per day
based on the pro3ected size of the Eagle Road mall.
C7
92
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Because the Treasure Valley mall is somewhat
smaller, the projected calls per day is about 1.7.
Really, those are averages in theoretical
models. On heavy days, on Friday nights, you~re going to
have the occasion where you have ten calls per day. And
these are the occasions that one cannot predict. But
these are occasions which the Chief of Police feels that
he has to be prepared for, and I agree with them.
In this case, we are dealing with the
addition of six patrolmen, one detective in the case of
the Eagle Road mall. And because the Treasure Valley
mall is smaller by a significant factor, he does not feel
that the police detective work would require an
additional policeman. In both cases two patrol cars
would be necessary.
How does that translate into dollars? Its a
simple process. You take the average salary, multiply it
by the salary cost factor of .23 and you divide it by the
number of men and you have a cost on a continuing basis
to the city of about $141,350.
And this is for the entire annexation area,
remember; not just the mall, for the annexation request
assuming the mall is developed.
If the mall is not developed, the service
requirements are less, and depending on the land use, it
~ ~
93
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1b
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
can rate from one additional patrolman up to three to
four additional patrolmen. The highest of that, three to
four, would be based on a commercial development of the
Overland Road corridor which is what the zoning request
is fir.
I personally don't think you will have full
commercial development there, but since the zoning has
been requested in that category, you have to anticipate
it.
Based on the same factors of costs, we
project this at approximately b70,000 police cost for the
annexation if the mall is not developed; essentially
about half.
The police costs for the Treasure Valley mall
are also substantial. There is no getting aa~ay from
that. Tn this case, we're looking at $122,000, also
based on the need for six additional patrolmen.
And believe me, if that weren't the case, I
wouldn't be standing up here saying it. This is based on
extensive time spent with the Chief of Police and the
research that we have done on the calls per service at a
mall.
(Brief interruption.)
t~(R. GOURGUECHON: Okay. Let me continue. This
next chart summarizes the research that we did to
~ i ~
~ 1
2
3
~ 4
5
6
• 7
8
9
~ 10
11
12
~ 13
14
15
~ 16
17
18
~ 19
20
21
~ 22
° 23
24
~ 25
1
94
determine what fire protection, fire control costs would
be of the annexation, with the mall and with the Treasure
Valley -- comparative to the Treasure Valley site.
You will notice on here that the annexation
without the mall is not included on here. A.nd that is
because it would be the same as the Treasure Valley site,
and not really cost anything additional based on the land
use scenario that we developed.
We are showing things a little differently
here. ~1e are trying to indicate here the one-type
capital costs 'to the City because they are so
substantial.
In effect, the gold bar on the far left-hand
side indicates the construction of the buildings that
would have to be built and the costs of those buildings
in order to provide proper fire coverage to the
annexation area, particularly the Eagle Road zone itself.
The red area indicates the additional
equipment that would be required to give that station --
to properly equip the station. It was said to me, there
is no reason to build a building if you donut have
anything to put into it.
On the right-hand side of this chart we are
showing annual operating costs. Here again, if the mall.
is developed under this annexation, if its felt by all
:~
95
•
•
~,
~.
..
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
1~
15
16
17
13
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
those who deal with fire service in Meridian, that a
full-time fire department would be required, when you
have two different fire stations. The mayor impact of
this, as you can see from the chart, is manpower, the
amount of them.
In the blue column here indicates the annual
costs of providing manpower for both Eagle Road station
and the main station.
The gold area indicates the building
maintenance that would be required, additional building
maintenance by having sleeping quarters not only at the
new station but at the old station as well.
And finally, the red area is the annual costs,.
of maintaining equipment and depreciation of those pieces l',
of equipment that only last a couple of years.
In total dollars amount, I think it is
significant to note that the capital costs of adjusting
fire service in Meridian to account for this annexation,
should the mall develop, exceeds a million dollars.
And that includes the building of a fire
station in the vicinity of Eagle Road, the construction
of sleeping quarters above the main station in downtown
Meridian or, with the full-time fire department, sleeping
quarters have to be provided there.
The provision of a ladder, truck, at the
~ L ~
96
•
•
[~
•
•
CJ
•
•
•
1
2
3
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Eagle Road station, this is an ecological piece of
equipment for the fire department, and again, a truck has
to be provided at that station, a squad truck for the
station and probably an additional car.
It's from this million dollars, or the excess
of a million dollars, this is what has to be paid in
order to get fire service to the Eagle Road area. It's
from that million dollars that one then deducts whatever
donation promises that have been made. It is from that,
the resulting amount of money after you have deducted
those donations -- and I frankly don't know what they
are -- is what the citizens of P9eridian will have to
finance.
You will likely have to finance that by bonds
and the bonds themselves will turn over into a 25 or 30
year payback schedule that will turn into a continuing
cost.
tr]e have not calculated that, but it's a
significant amount. Certainly, the bond would exceed a
half million dollars and would be an additional financial
burden on the community.
In terms of annual operating costs, we are
looking here at the need for 15 full-time firemen at
competitive salaries and salary benefits and the amounts
to maintain their equipment and buildings as well as
~ ~ ~
97
C7
L
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
their living quarters.
It's my understanding that the it's the
tradition of this community and its fire department, it
would be most logical to provide that fire service by
converting to a full-time fire department rather than
looking for ways to shoehorn in at some type of mixed
development.
That's not my opinion; it's the opinion of
people that run the fire department here in the
community.
There are other minor costs. There's the
cost of extending general government services. Those
costs in both cases run into the few hundreds of dollars.
~Je haven't bothered to map those out.
I think what's much more important to look at
here is the revenue picture, because you have been
getting a lot of conflicting numbers. And we decided to
show this with a chart over a period of time because the
laws in Idaho it reflects are not simple. And this chart
indicates for you the effect of those laws, and the best
way to take a look at what Meridian will really get is to
take a look at the five-year tax flow.
If you take a look at revenues coming into
the City over five years and average them out for that
period of time, you get a much truer picture of how much
~ 1 ~
98
•
C7
[7
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
money Meridian is going to get.
Now, these revenues come from property taxes.
Obviously, there are some other revenues that come to the
City.
Let's consider sales tax for an example. The
sales tax laws in the State of Idaho are so structured
that the City of Meridian will get its share of sales tax
if this mall is located in Tdaho Falls. The mall would
have to be located outside the State of Idaho to keep
Meridian from getting its share of State taxes that would
come from the addition of a mall.
So whether the mall in the City or out -- and
this holds true for whether we're talking about the
Treasure Valley site or the Eagle Road site, makes not
one iota of difference, which is really all insignificant
because the amount of money that is likely to accrue to
the City in sales tax is X193•
In the case of the size of the Treasure
Valley mall, it's even a more magnificent number in the
area of probably a little under X100.
So the issue of this thing producing hundreds
of thousands of dollars in sales tax is simply not
correct. This can be verified by a simple reading of the
Idaho State laws that relate to sales tax.
There are other one-time fees that come in,
~ ~ i
99
•
C
•
•
•
•
•
•
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1i
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
building permits and so on. Those one-time fees are
usually structured so they pay more cost of inspections
and there is a direct trade-off there.
1Jhat is really important is what happens to
property tax and what happens to the City budget, because
those extra police costs of X140,000 and with those extra
Fire costs which could exceed a half million have to be
paid each and every year; not just one time.
~1ow, frankly, I donut know how it possibly
can be paid given the situation that exists in the State
regarding property tax. It goes this way. The State
provides two methods for any City to raise its City
budget on property tax.
I emphasize the City budget because Ism not
talking about how much taxes they can get out of one
developer or one property owner versus another property
owner. That property owner is going to pay a substantial
amount of taxes.
He is going to pay his market value of his
land For assessment purposes times the same tax rate that
each of you homeowners pay. And I guess that is now --
now that Idaho law has changed in the last election.
Actually, the tax rate will be the same. Your assessment
will be cut by 50 percent..
Okay. Let me go over that again. The tax
• ~ '
100
•
•
•
•
f
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
i2
13
14
15
16
17
13
19
20
21
22
23
24~
25
rate which a commercial developer will pay is the same as
anyone else pays, except your assessment would be cut by
50 percent.
Commercial developers will not. Your market
value for assessment purposes will be cut, and the
commercial developers will not.
The issue here, however, is, What kind of
revenues will come from these developers. Idaho law says
that a community can raise its budget by five percent
over its previous year or the highest -- or the highest
budget year in years 197 to '~1, I believe.
The way it works out is, the last preceding
year is almost always the highest budget year. So you
have the possibility with no development of raising your
City budget by five percent.
u7e11, we've indicated that on this
(indicating) chart by titling that to five percent
increment deals. Over five years, that would allow an
average annual gain of X14,500. That's with no
development. You get the X14,500 gain simply by applying
the five percent rule.
There is another method, however, that the
State legislature has provided for communities that have
increments of growth. Now, this obviously is an
increment of growth. And the new growth increment says
• 1 I
101
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
3
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1~
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
says you can pay half of that growth increment, the
assessed evaluation of the new growth increment, and
apply half of that times last year's tax rate, and you
can raise the budget by that amount, in the first year.
And that's why we have on this chart a
revenue flow that is higher in that first year. And it's
for the first year only.
What happens in this case, we are showing the
results of the Quong-tdatkins annexation; not just the
center, but of all the value of the 350 acres that comes
into the City, and gives you a big hit of money in the
first year.
In the second year, that new tax increment of
X111,000 I believe we calculated out, is added to the tax
base. And then that amount is an increase by five years
both by five percent over the next year.
So the net result is that you have a tax gain
over five years of approximately X38,000 a year.
Without the mall, you have a tax gain of less
than the five percent amount, and that's the lowest line
here (indicating). It's under $14,500; just a little bit
over X14,000.
So if the mall is not developed, the new
growth increment doesn't help you at all.
The Treasure Valley mall provides you with
i ~ '
102
4
C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
just about the same amount of average annual revenue as
does the Eagle Road. Since it's smaller, it's value is
somewhat less.
If they're the same size, which they're
really .likely to be when everything is shaken out, you
know, any developer is going to take full advantage of
the market, so they're going to really end up the same
size.
So the revenues you are talking about gill
probably be the same. But for our purposes, they're
close enough here. The Treasure Valley mall will end up
at approximately $32,000 on the average over five years.
The summary of this situation, as far as
continuing costs versus continuing revenues that affect
the general fund of the City -- that's the City that pays
for your fire and police and general government -- are as
follows:
The Quong-Watkins annexation request with the
mall produces a total cost on a continuing basis of
around $688,000.
The average revenue yield over that five-year
study period is $39,000 a year. That gives you a net
loss per year of almost $650,000.
Quong-Watkins, without the mall, gives you a
much reduced cost of $70,600, a lower revenue yield on
` ~ i
s
Z
i
•
i
,~
1
i
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
103
the average basis of fourteen-five, for a net deficit
annually of X56,000.
The Treasure Valley mall has a cost of
$122,350, most of which is police service. Its average
yield would be X32,300 for a net deficit of X90,000,
Now, this is why I said to you at the
beginning of this that there are really no good answers
here. My good answer would be a net revenue gain to the
City.
The way the laws are structured right now,
its not possible. And I think it also should be pointed
out that there is a substantial difference in these
deficits, that the proposed annexation would create a net
deficit seven times the amount of the existing cost if
you proceed with trying to get the mall built on the
Nahas or Treasure Valley site.
I have for the City Council a letter which
summarizes the study that we did on the Treasure Valley
site which uses the exact same factors based on the same
parameters and the same budget assumptions as was the
study that you received previously on the Quong-~Jatkins
annexation.
In addition to that, I prepared a letter, a
memorandum, to the City Council and R1r. Nahas cuhich
discusses some of the implications of sewer and water
1
>~
i
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
104
costs that have been brought to light by members of the
City Board and Sewer Department and also a discussion of
the effects of changing the shopping center site sizes to
reflect what I feel is more the reality of the situation;
and that is the phasing of shopping centers so that we
are comparing apples with apples here and not apples with
oranges.
In summary, that, in effect, the phasing of
the centers will make them both end up in the 750- to
900,000 square foot range, in my opinion.
If there are any questions I can answer, I
would be happy to.
(No response.)
MR. GOURGUECHON: All right. If not, I am
available through Mr. Nahas to give you further
clarification whenever you desire.
Thank you.
~ ~ i
105
i
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ROIV NAHAS,
came forward and continued his statement as follows:
MR. NAHAS: Thank you, Jaques.
I want to talk a little bit, and hopefully
briefly, about the I~1eridian Road site which P4r. Harbeck
has pronounced to be dead this evening.
I am one fella who doesn't believe it is
dead.
Another group that doesn't believe it is dead
is the Simon organization, and they are the largest and
most powerful influential regional shopping center
developer ever to be involved in the Soise market.
They came to look at this market partially at
the invitation of h9r. Harbeck to come and look at
Mr. Quong's site. They came and analy2ed the entire
market area and decided the site on Meridian Road was the
best site, most economic site and the most likely site
for a regional shopping center to be developed here.
P1r. Gourguechon worked very hard, as I said
earlier, on a weekly basis talking with necessary tenants
to make that come about.
Mr. Harbeck traditionally said that the site
on Meridian Road was simply unacceptable to mass
merchandisers.
L ~
9 06
z
~~
•
i
•
~f
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
92
13
94
95
16
17
18
99
20
29
22
23
24
25
Now, -- and I feel a little like Alice in
Wonderland. I think you're going to get curiouser and
curiouser.
At one time we had a commitment with
Mr. Harbeck's former employer, LJards, for this site,
prior to the time they were acquired by Mobile Oil.
Furthermore, I was at a meeting at the ICSC
in New Orleans not two years ago when the real estate
department of Wards had dust completed comparative
studies of Meridian and the Treasure Valley area for
potential sites and determined that the site on
Meridian Road could produce a store with volume of
525-million a year and that the difference, the
incremental difference between that location and the
location immediately suburban to Boise was less than ten
percent; not something that was, in his opinion in any
ease, an overwhelming factor in deciding where to locate
the market.
So I don't believe Meridian site is dead; I
don't believe the department stores have said it was
dead. The department stores committed to Mr. Price for a
variety of reasons.
They certainly did not commit to-him because
he has zoning, or because he has an interchange, or
because he has inexpensive services, or because he has
~ ~
107
i
•
•
•
s
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
any of the other things that Mr. Quong has said he has to
have to get the department store commitment.
They committed there, one, because of a very
special relationship with one of the department stores
and, two, because Mr. Price offered to give away most of
the mall to them to commit.
Now, the community can say, How important is
that for us, what Mr. Price is willing to give away.
Well, it is important.
It is important because there are only two
sources of dollars; two sources. Shoppers' dollars and
taxpayers' dollars. That's very important to understand.
There are two sources of dollars.
What the shoppers spend in the stores and
what the taxpayers pay in their taxes. I can assure you
that no developer goes into a community with the idea of
making a permanent commitment of his money there and
leaving it there forever.
If he thought he was going to do that, he
urould never build a shopping center.
I can also assure you that no lender is going
to go into the community with the idea of making a .
contribution of that City permanently. He expects to get
his money back and to get it back with interest.
So all of the things that are going to be
~ ~ ~
108
i
•
i
f
C~
i
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
paid for by the developer, they're not paid for by the
developer. They are paid for by shoppers, or they are
paid for by taxpayers.
So the economics of the mall are important.
They're important to the community, to be sure that the
mall tenants are not paying excessive rent so that you
can actually rent these stores.
The Simon organization is building malls, and
has built malls, all around the country in smaller
communities. They know what theses mall stores can pay.
P9any people here in Meridian, and some poeple aren't even
its merchants in the City of Meridian, and they know what
kind of rents they can pay.
And if too much money is spent, too much
money is committed on things other than the construction
of that mall, then the rents in that mall, or the rents
they have to get would simply be too high to service the
community.
Now, we have studied, as I have said earlier,
all of the competitive sites in the Treasure Valley. Ede
have studied the 6dest Park site. Ed`e agree with a lot of
the comments today. I don't believe it's a shopping
center site.
T don't believe they can solve the traffic
problems. I don't believe they can solve the questions
~ ~
109
i
i
i
i
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
1~
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
2 ~6
25
of covenants running with the land with some of its
neighbors.
~Je have studied the Cloverdale site. It's
interesting to note that we arentt the only ones that
have studied the Cloverdale site. The City of Boise did.
They prepared a very extensive study and memoranda for
the City of Boise regarding the costs to Boise of
annexing the Cloverdale site.
And I want to leave a copy of this, and there
are other copies of it, with the City Council.
But we had nothing to do with that study
prepared by a woman named Susan Stacy with the Planning
Department in the City. of Boise. And the results of that
study was that there would be a net deficit to the City
of Boise for the Cloverdale site of X610,000 a year.
This shows a net deficit for Quong-Watkins to the City of
Meridian of X649,000 a year.
And, you know, they say that figures donut
lie, but liars figure. Here is two completely
independent studies, two different cities, both
open-space sites. That~s what the Eagle Road site is.
Its designated open space. So is the Cloverdale site.
And the deficit to the municipalities are
almost precisely the same. When arrived at, one by a
consultant in Chicago, the other from the planning staff
110
7
i
•
•
•
1
•
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
in Hoise.
So we don't -- we do not believe, in that
ease, that t~tr. Price, when the truth came out about the
cost of his site in the City of Hoise, he was gracious
enough to say, This is a very expensive thing for the
City of Hoise. I am very concerned about it. And I am
going to turn my attention to the ~^Jest Park mall which is
closer in cahere I feel the def icits will be less
pronounced than they are at Cloverdale.
He at least eras upfront enough about it to
say that.
Our situation -- you know, what is it. You
~ know, what's happened to Pdieridian Road. ~~1e are -- and
I'll be the first to admit it. ate bought the property
over nine years ago. We made a big commitment. We own
it, we struggled for years to pay it off.
We are in -- you know, we have waited with
bated breath for this mall longer than anyone, and worke d
harder than anyone has.
j°Je have the finest developer, I believe, of
this kind of shopping center in the country; certainly
the largest of this kind of small-town shopping center.
They are committed to the site and they are meeting daily'
with the tenants.
I believe we don't have. a center in this I'
1
111
•
i
i
•
L'
i
1
2
3
~4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
'21
22
23
2k
25
marketplace for a variety of reasons. One is that the
department stores did not all have a specific time table
in mind. They didn't feel any pressure to build a store
so they could linger, you know, with commitments on the
site.
Say to a developer, Go take your best shot.
You know, Let's see what you can come up with.
They could pick and choose their site.
That's one of the reasons.
Another reason is that several new interests
of the market -- Montgomery Wards being one; Mervin's
being another -- decided because of corporate acquisition
not to go into a market like Boise, but to concentrate on
major metropolitan markets.
That's another reason. 1Vobody came in from
the outside to create pressure for movement.
And the third reason is that there is mass
confusion about the sites. There are sites, and have
been for years, being proposed as regional shopping
center sites that aren't, and everybody has been
confused. Cities have been confused, department stores
have been confused, all kinds of people have been
confused.
~(r. Harbeck has said that the determination
of where this center is going to go is made by the
• '
112
•
i
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
department stores.
I dontt agree with that. I think the people
of Idaho have demonstrated year in and year out that that
determination is being made by what is best for the City.
And I think that now -- we believe strongly that now the
department stores have a time table.
4Je believe that some of the key department
stores have a time table, and they~re going to move to
those sites that are going to be available, that can be
built more economically. And the most economical
available site is the one that the City has designated
for the regional shopping center for nine years and
should continue to so designate today.
So I appreciate this opportunity to speak
before the City Council. I believe also that the h9ayor
can make the right decision. And I am amused by the
concern of the tenants of downtown Hoise that excess
traffic would create -- or downtown P~leridian, excuse me.
I believe that the traffic situation in
Nteridian can be resolved. I think the Eagle interchange
a good idea. I donut see anything wrong with the Eagle
interchange.
However, there are cities, small cities all
across this country that would die for traffic in their
downtown.
~ ~ ~
113
•
•
•
•
r
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
They would die because the traffic has been
sucked one mile, two miles, three miles outside of their
downtown to a regional mall. You couldn't list the
number of cities under that circumstance.
Cities do not die retailwise because they've got
too much traffic passing their shops; they die because
there's no traffic. And that is what will occur when all
of the vitality is sucked outside of this City.
So, you know, there has been a lot of
pressure. There have been lawsuits in this situation,
there have pressures and threats, there has been
intimidations, calls for resignation.
As far as I am concerned, the service of this)
City who have taken that kind of abuse, you know, have
done an enormous job for the people of this City. They
are trying to protect the tenants, they are trying to
protect the investment, and they are trying to protect
the City financing so that there will be policemen out
there, and firemen.
You know, I'd like to go to the ISO
underwriter in terms of insurance rates and tell him I'm
going to build a X60-million shopping center and protect
it with university students part time. I'd like to know
what kind of fire rating i would get for buying my
insurance.
~ ~
[~
11~
1
•
•
•
•
•
i
1 Now, that is --
2 MR. McALLISTER: The h1oscow Fire Department --
3 MR. NAHAS: -- a unique --
4 MR. McALLISTER: -- is fully staffed.
5 MR. NAHAS: dell, Moscow is a unique
6 circumstance; there is no question about it. I have
7 great administration for both the students and the
8 Fire Chief. I didn't mean that with any sort of a slam.
9 Sut I deal with ISO on projects all over, and
10 I know, you know, how they rate volunteer fire
11 departments. The point is, you've got three-story
12 buildings; you have got a huge, huge facility that has
13 got to be protected.
14 So, you know, I appreciate the opportunity to
15 speak. This has been a long hearing. I appreciate
16 everybody staying around.
17 I want .you to know we are still here, and we
18 have got an incredibly powerful development organizatio n
19 working for a site that will reinforce the City of
20 P4eridian. And I have every reason to believe that we are
21 closer today in realizing that than we ever have been.
22 Thank you.
23 MAYOR GLAISYER: The next speaker is
24 Colin Connell.
25
•
115
•
•
n
•
r~
u
•
•
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1~
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
COLIN COP~JNELL,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. CONNELL: I'm Colin Connell. I've been in
commercial investment real estate in Boise and helped put
some investors into the Meridian market based upon your
comprehensive plan and other things like that, so I had
to kind of come and protect some of the interests that I
put in based upon the thing.
My concern is with your Meridian area being
split too much. I think you'd end up with an east and
west, you know, Meridian. You're going to end up with
the east down at Cloverdale if you approved the thing
docJn there. I think all of your other development is
leaning towards Boise there than come out here.
I have to agree with Ron, that in working in
commercial investment real estate, I have never run into
property that had a real high traffic count for the month
that the land value has been overachieved. where the
cheap land is, you don't have any traffic.
I'm also a businessman here in Boise -- or in
Meridian, and in Boise. But, you know, I'm concerned
about that, not having the traffic and having to relocate
out where the traffic is. Because you've got to have
that traffic around.
•
1
116
C
C~
L
C~
•
i
•
C~
1
2
3
4
5
6
9
10
11
12
13
1 ~!
15
16
17
1S
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
You can still take care of a lot of the other
traffic out here with the Franklin improvements and stuff
like that near Eagle; not all that traffic coming out of
Boise, you know, is going to come out the interstate and
stuff like that.
Wetve got to have that traffic around town
here, too.
MAYOR GLAISYER:
Montie Ralstin.
The next speaker is
MONTIE RALSTTN, JR.,
came forward and gave the following statement:
MR. RALSTIN: My name is P~iontie Ralstin. I live
at 935 Crestwood Drive in the City of Meridian.
I would like to address the Council with just
a few comments. Some of these things will be repeated,
and I~11 keep them very brief, if I can. Mr. Nahas has
said some of them.
Someone said about five sites have been
proposed. Therets actually six. I think Jess Groves
would be very indignant if he thought of the fact that
they were leaving his site out.
Between Boise and Meridian, there are two
sites, however, that are approved. And that~s downtown
~:
117
C
C,
•
C~
•
•
1
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Boise, and that's the site that we have here in the City
of Meridian.
One of those sites out of the six right now
says that they have department stores committed. I think
everybody here needs to remember that those are letters
of intent. And those shopping centers -- or excuse me,
those department stores can change their minds just as
rapidly as a developer can change his mind about sites.
The argument that the Nahas site, they have
had it for nine or ten years and nothing has happened.
You know, why haven't they done something if they're such
great developers.
All these other sites were available at the
same time Nahas has acquired their site. IrJhy weren't
they acquired then?
They have had the same power, they stayed in
there and fought for what they believe this community
needed, and that was a regional shopping center. It.
hasn't happened. The timing is not correct.
Obviously, it is correct because all of a
sudden we've got six sites being considered, and
everybody wants in the act now. So obviously the time is
correct for a regional center.
Some other things to be considered. Right
now in Sunday's paper announced Nordstrom's and The Bon
~ ~ '
C~
118
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
1 ~ would both go downtown if one other store would commit.
2 Mayor Eardley approved a comrnittee; a week
3 from ~~ednesday we'll come up with their report. I'm kind
4 of interested to see what that has to say.
5 Tomorrow night Poise is going to sit down and
6 have a donnybrook downtown over whether or not
7 Larry Leisure~s site is going to be accepted.
8 I disagree with the former speaker saying
g that Larry Leisure was going to get his way, because I
10 doubt very seriously if that decision will be made before
11 the blue ribbon committee is heard.
12 ~ And tonight we sit here in Meridian and ask
13 the City Council to make a decision to obtain a workable
14 comprehensive plan that we already have to accommodate a
15 regional mall at Eagle Road.
16 ~Je have a viable regional shopping center
17 site right now in the City limits of Meridian, with the
18 necessary services already based here, and within a
19 workable distance of that site and obviously within
20 workable costs.
21 Meridian Road site developers have never
22 ~ changed their mind about their site or their intent as to
23 what they were going to do with that site. They always
24 have been forthright in their intent and letting people
25 of this community know when they had something that
•
119
.~
~,
u
•
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1~
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
needed to be brought forth, when they had people that
they were talking to as far as possible shopping center
tenants, they let us know that.
They haven't made commitments and come in and
said, We have letters of intent from this person and this
person and this person. They haven't raised our hopes
falsely as far as I can see.
lrle have observed them for a long time; nine
years is a long time. And I don't think a little longer
is going to hurt anything. And I urge the City Council
to say no to this annexation and change in the
comprehensive plan.
Thank you.
MAYOR GLAISYER: Okay. Gentlemen, that
concludes all of the registered speakers.
MR. QUONG: Mr. Mayor?
MAYOR GLAISYER: Mr. Quong.
MR. QUONG: Can we have a chance for rebuttal?
MAYOR GLAISYER: I was hoping that the Council
would take this under advisement and give it ten days for
written rebuttal, because I'm sure that we would be here
going back and forth all evening.
Does the Council have any opinion on that?
MR. KINGSFORD: I would think it would be a good
idea to leave some time for written rebuttal on both
L ~
120
•
•
•
•
[~
•
[~
•
•
1 sides. I agree with the Mayor; weed probably be here a
2 few hours.
3 f~1R. BREWER: Could we limit the time?
4 MR. KINGSFORD: Are you talking about now, Bill?
5 I~1R. BREWER: Yes.
6 MR. fCINGSFORD: I thought we were --
7 P1R. TOLSMA: It might be appropriate to leave
8 the record open, to g et the information. Ind advise we
9 leave the record open for a week to ten days for written
10 rebuttal. I believe that will be the most efficient.
11 MR. KINGSFORD: Mr. Mayor, I move that we take
12 the matter under advi sement except for written testimony
13 for a period of ten d ays, and at our earliest convenience
1~1 schedule workshops to begin deliberation on the paperwork
15 that we have received and will be receiving.
16 h1R. ORTON: I second it.
17 h1AY0R GLAISYER: There has been a motion made
18 and seconded to take the issue of the comprehensive plan
19 amendments and the an nexation of Mr. Paul Quong under
20 advisement and to inf orm the public that they have ten
21 days to make written comment pro or con again and that
22 the City Council will start scheduling workshop sessions
23 to digest the materia l that has been presented this
24 evening.
25 All those in favor?
•
•
121
•
•
C~
•
•
•
•
•
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
i4
15
16
17
18
1g
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Unanimous affirmative response by Council
members.)
MAYOR GLAISYER: Opposed?
(No response.)
MAYOR GLAISYER: Motion carries.
Thank you very much, Ladies and Gentlemen,
for staying.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Whereupon it was moved by A1r. Orton to
adjourn the hearing and seconded by Mr. ~Cingsford and
unanimously carried, in favor of the motion, by Council
members.)
(The hearing concluded at 10:36 p.m.)
--00000000--
~0~4 0~-
~ y cs
,.
~ ~ ~
'h' s'.Y i "r~ i S? 9yf.'i` .~ PAZ ;.y f". rj•~ F^ "f~ ~ ~:^a~ ">5 ~M F., f ,~ r iy ~ ,~ ~b'i
.t f #F S
4 ~~ ~ _ M1~. "~ _q T't i ^}c~~ k ~ fi' i„ ;.;f ~' .'` j .. ~ fk -, ~. ^,a ~{d -~ '~:.~ 'v '"> )} #t '~' .~?;( ~ e{ ~ :~. ~ t X' ` '~' r'' °.
r ~ r ~. ~ tf s w.~ ~'~ 'P ~ii r ~ F~. ~} `~` y ~•~,G OFF ~ + .} ( t. ~ ~-~.r f 7 } ~ k' ~ I~ v t ~G'!~~
.,. ~ dos `y r '} c ' V ! ~ ~ ~ .. ~ - F ~ S 3 h' ` ~ ~ ~ ..' rT --t ,- `F 1Y
~' t ~ !~ ' f -. -~
3s ~ i o c •- ,. ~ .a f z -,. {V •K`" ~ k tti ~ S }, :: k:. F b R a.. +
c .r s`s .~ ~, ~ .c .~ ~ p '4, ~. ~ ~ ~}t '1 f ,* ~ ~ ~~v .M1 '' ~ ~ 4 ~ ;x 6~ 7 ~; y ~, ~ s {? ,. s ~ 4,
rn. r .,~ wY fi`r' ~ .~, ^1r r , ~~~ ~m ~. ~ ar 7 °.,, y'~ ~..- ~S- .i li;~ ~ ~r ~ r ~ ~ ~~ a
r ~ , r ; ~ y , f r 'N H ` ~ f, rt ~, ~y i ~ r ti r `~ x ~,
~:, s r:-i'~ ~ t i _r x ~ n a ~ 7 :~~ '' y t F ~~. v,4~ -fi ! -r ,r Y f 'D
r,' ~;ft,.t -. fiK P '~ a r.i ti - u" ~s K :f - f , ': .`6 ~ _ - Y r ,, x. ~ €,: u-. r
~ a;` '~ .~, ~ ~ ~ ; ~ ~ ' ~ r `_ M, " ~~~+QR'fE~ ~ S~:-`C~i~~T~r`~ATE ; ,' ~ i # ^,~ '
r' {
~„ r F r ~ -s ~.5 I ~ w ~ t': '~i '~ ~,; f } xr .~~ t ~ '~ ti f .f 3 ~`~ ~ .k 'Q s,,- ~7
~ ,~:~ at. ~ r y ~ * _.~ ., ~ 1~ i" ~Y ~ ~~ fs .}S-- '- Z s *., a, t,.a ,..k
s~,ry .rl rw. •"' 'rrr~ ~ ~i F -.~ r C.~ 3 ~ - ~ >~^r ~ ~ -,l ~' ~ ~ `K _p' ,4
iY ~ 9 'k 9 t 4 '~ ;?- ?wi, t :, ~
y~ ~y~ c
~,,%r' ' ''~' ~>~+.} ~ ~ e.uy ~, ~X~TDA' C, :_~AB~'+~•~ Certi~,iecl $hQrt~anc~ ~~.tr. 4 ~ c '~ ~'~
_ ~,~ 5 '; ~egar~er;. Ret~-~.stered° P~citees~,ana3~ Reporter,-'~:andk~l ~~ s~
~'~ ~ ~ ~ a -
F ,i r j ~,.~~ ~ % ~ ,~ ~ ~t~tar~- Au~;~~g rind ~x~~ ~=fir ~e~rt ~~a~e of ~~a.~o~ "hereby" x ~ ~~
Pr~,1 y x :~.U-7° Y ~'v~.~? . = i~e,1"~r:,R~~~fi '~ "2s-w~+ ~.,.~~ ~. ~ +~e~j'=~`ac,1.'"'~' ~ an,My'?+~ pr'~a,~, ~" ~' $ ~ 7 F y& s ~c ^~
~ ~ v ~ ~
~ ~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ `~ ~~ ~ '-~ ~ ~~ ~ ~, ~' ~ ~ `~ rte.- ~~ ~ ~~~ •: " ~ ,- •.~
r
,'' `.~ ~; s~ ~t} ~ ~h~~' ~t a~n ~~hb ~pec-a~'~whts ~t~ok `the proceedings ~>
_ ~ ~ i _
ti~ +nt 4 ±~'' StK+ TR ~ ~ i:- tiv ~ r 4. i d' ~ a~^li i. f m Ar... ~~ ~~e'S ~ `, ~ ., r {T' ~~ ~
~x~ ~ ;,d ~ .held .n the abo~te-en~3t~led action im machine ~.~~, ~ s~ '--0 ~' _
~ 4M , ~ :y r. ~ :~ ~ ~ ~ tt y ar e~ i~ ry H ,N J ~ °.V., ~ ~ ~, y ~ r , _~ ` ~r ~ ~ c ~
~t ~ ~' k~ ~~ ~ s~ioi~thartd° artti/= tlier~~~ter .the, ssaime Was reduced •to '~
~~ 4^a~ ~ ~~,q ~ r~'~'~7 "yep ;. ar ;* .• ~.,- ~ ,,~ .,' .:_ F ~ Y.~.
~ r c ~ o ~ i s 'F . ,,fi' y '.- 1' ~' ~ ' f ~ 4a
r
~' ~+ r r;y a:` ~' ~~ ~ ~ c ~3t~~pu't-er`'~$~~`~tQ~.a; typ®Writ~,~,,g~ under' my CI`i~BCt ~ ~~ s r;x ~~~ ~
y 5~ xy~f~Jt ~ _-.L } 'fi• 7' .- \k fi. ':d~ ri ~, r ,* y~~', ~, ~ W 7X'`'k Z", rNy bite,` ~' his a/,6 kr,~,~'~`a ~ ~ t ~ ~~
~` t r a1G i a 3Fa ~, ~~pe~V ~$~Q~y `end ~ .` t ~. 'a 4a'1rht + c~ 4 _ ..A r M ,.. E ~
r p ~, ~ 3 .y
" ~ <_ ~ ~° ' ~ 13 ` ~~h~~~ th~~ fa~eg~s~:nq =~epoxter `s ~'~~nsarigt ~ ~ -~ ~ ~ ~-~~
c {~ ax {~ -~F i ~ ~ ~.~'~~ ~~ ~ ~'Y -.: ~ ~ ,?, 'I. x e" r tip. ,.:- ! ~ /Mth a i ,.~ ~ ~_~ 2Jr ~
~ ~~ ;~ ~ "~- h `, ` ~ ~ conta3~n~ ~ ~~11, :true. 6~r~d aaCur$ta raca~d of the N ~~°r " `
x . ~ ~ ,
` , ~~ proce`~c~~n~~a hid ~::xr the `~3acV~ ~ aac~_ ~g~c.ego'nc~ c~a~se ~ ~ .,
r 7~ ~. `~ ,~ - ~~ ~:
a ~ h y H ,a
,r ~ ~ r° t~ ,. , which ~ arse . heard ~t 1~er~.rTian, ~daho.1, : ,..; ~ ~,''Mk ., ~ ~
i / '-~
~ ~.~:~ ,~ ~, i~ W~TI~£~SS 3~t~Q~`i¢'r ht~~e~n~t~ ~i~~st ~~ny ~h~~}d ` ;- x;
a d ~ ', Yy t ;t~ r v 4 ~' ~ o ~ t y n^ s ~-_ ~d ~ a' ~ • ~ R '^ ~ .i. y.~.,
a ~ Y ~' ~. f r'{ 4 ht .f - ~. h .Y.- 5 T -t ~ ~~~ ~ . 'k !!'` ~ Y .f ~
R'~. J i ti ~ hrtl ,~~Qy ~ ~I`r __ ~,~ ~~ ,~ hts ~7s a; { k -~~ s 4K~ "' 1 ,-yr ~y.. .~~_ r ~x ~!. ~` ?I
L i rt ~+ >~ r- ss rt} r L >i ~ 5 s
f ~ l t ~ h '~4 Lb'.F ~ - ~ l fie, r ~ , I 3
~ ~ f ~ ~ sF -.art- r~ ~ ~ :: . r + .: "• '' 1~ ' 'h ~1
O ~ tti. a Yf4 ~ ~' `
r ~t ~` ~ !~ r ? .t.Lr ~ ~ T'
µ:`+,.r J„ is i ~ '.,r,i YY iii ':~ i"~{'~ Irt~{'. 7h. n_ ~tr '` r~ }' '_~i,} r~ \r.f~ L3Ri~~i1~~ V~~M.4 G '41ep~i ter `= ;~
' ~j ., ~,~, s 4th ' fi ~-3 7 a , ~°' ~~ x }r4 ;i a ~ '~ ~ .. r r ~~ ~` i ° tkfs: {"~ ~
d '. ~~ ~ ~~K {' 2Q eN s a: x r e 1 '~ r I - ., i t 4 Y ~~ X.P _ d x -.
4 yG. ; ~ ti } .,•~` 'F• C,(j,:P a ~ .r ~ ~ ~1. +~ Cv x" L~ ', ., F sue" -d _ ~ .~ ~~ q L~ 1 4 r jtP•; r ,¢!
`' 4~ -' 'rt L ~ ~ ~ ~~-''' ~i Lr •rT R'' ~ 9~ '4 ~ .c.! r t:',~"~r y'y1,`~~ ~t•r i r ,.
~ i ~t ti~ ~x ~i' ~~ 2 ~ti ~ 1+„f - ~` t _. ~ rl~ ~~ v ~ ;;t 7. ~. v 1« F ,_ t C -~ ~ ~,^sv' y ~,4 r`'iC ! s:~ `.~ n{^'
~ NT
~t ~lS ~~ v ~a d~ '•E ~ r ti r s: `,' t',. +~^. Z~ ~` a '+°r~x rt ~
l fit, • h, ', V, 'Y3 ._
.~ ..t {t y 5 4 '+~CK 9x~` 4i~. .~ ., n ~ i .~ ,~" a ~1 ~ k f ~ "a` _r ` ~„ a~: f~` 7 ~ ~. '~. ~ s fir
t, ~ ^$ ` N`i` ~ ~[' W ~ ~. z ~ C~- ~ ' ~ ~. ,t ~ a^~ A r ': ~'.~ ~ ~1 ~ v -. y ' ~ ~r # ~+~ rF ~ ;~ ~ ~ o~
' ~ v ~ ~ .~ '-~ ~ sH f k ~° ~k ~ ,, ~ ~ 4 ~ ~ r ~ °-°
p.2~ °~ ~ ~ i 1 7 ` ~. ~ ~' 2 ~ ! i r, i+ 'r },cE. y rl} ~.' ;- ~ `+_~_ ~ ~ ~,~ . X Y .., 4 . r. -;
~',ai 7 ,~,. k ~ ~} r ~ ; % t ~ a ti '~ + "~yr ~ a ~F ~r ~h ~ ~ i ~ 3 . i "~ x i .,i; '~
4 F .'. ,'. .~'
- f r~ f ' f ~ ° ±.
x > r .r ,
i t r ~ c~ ~i r '~r -z ~ '~ ~, t ..t iti r • t ._ ~, c ` ~ ~ s. f cL :~ -: ~ ._ ~ ~ . ~.
~ '~ ~ - ~ n ~ pa :1 r 'y~ 'si _ t,. ' i ,!` c t 7+ , f1 N4' ,~ ,~ ~ 't~ a, _, s ,.,. ~{ 1K4- l' r ~ ~ h
s ;. ?,
~' ~a 7. • ~• _ } k i ~,. ~i'Y-~ f i y ~:,° }.,y t -.rn ~.,,t -.r'¢ ~ ~'_ '~ ~ '0. x u~ r-r Y~ ~ t fiI
~ .~' ° ~'~ t~ ~~:'`~ r r ,f ~~x {, ~ i. ~J ~C ,;~ a ~"r f~ } ~:~ '' ~ ~~:• ~,. ,r} s~-` `.i ~ r ,,~~ ri ~r ,.. ~ ~ i
f` r '~ ~ ~ ~' ..`z^ A ~rN , r ` M F' ~ ~ ~ x ~ ° ~ K fit,.. =.u°:d1c~.}w,ec,:: x _
~' --. ~V,s.. a~'P 9~1 '.~~ Yn~ +''^~1 ~. a~K._ vs,a,: _ s ~'~ .. ~ ~.«..~.t. •..Y' _.. ~ ~r_-~
;~
LAWYER'S NOTES
~-
_~