2006 03-30 Special
Meridian PlanninQ and Zonina Special Meetinq
March 30, 2006
Special Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of March 30, 2006,
was called to order at 6:30 p.m. at the Meridian Police Department by Chairman
Michael Rohm.
Members Present: Michael Rohm, Wendy Newton-Huckabay, David Moe, Keith Borup
and David Zaremba.
Staff Present: Anna Canning, Steve Siddoway, Caleb Hood, Matt Ellsworth and Sharon
Smith.
Rohm: Good evening everybody. We are now going to have this Special Meeting of
Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission and I think we will start with the roll call of
attendance.
Item 1:
Roll-Call Attendance:
Roll-call
X Wendy Newton-Huckabay X Keith Borup
X David Moe - Vice Chairman X David Zaremba
X Michael Rohm - Chairman
Item 2:
Adoption of the Agenda:
Rohm: I would like to have the adoption of the agenda and I don't know if there are any
changes to it, so can we get a motion?
Zaremba: So moved.
Moe: Second.
Rohm: It has been moved and seconded that we adopt the agenda. All those in favor
say aye. Opposed same sign?
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Item 3:
Presentation by Joe Canning regarding "Budgeting a Development:
The Costs of Subdividing":
Rohm: We will start next with the presentation by Joe Canning.
J. Canning: That is me.
Rohm: That would be you.
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March 30, 2006
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J. Canning: Just want to say that I think I have been hoodwinked. I didn't realize this
was a presentation per se.
Rohm: Lucky you.
J. Canning: I do have a handout. I guess I will just pass that around this way and
whoever needs to have one of those can take one and I thought it was more or less just
answering questions. Quite some time ago, I had a client contact me that is in the south
Meridian impact area and they were just purchasing land or looking at purchasing land
with the idea of just investing and holding onto it. Basically, banking it for a while and
request do we do a feasibility study on development on that site? It is a small site. It is
only five acres, but we went ahead and did the analysis - there was a little more to it
than just this. This is just more or less the cost site - we looked into some other issues
as far as density, (inaudible) perhaps he could do. Tried to project some timeframes on
what they might be looking at as far as getting the site developed and kind of things like
that. But, I gave kind of a stripped down copy of this to my wife, Anna and I think she
presented it to some folks at Meridian. Maybe you folks saw it about a year - this was
done about 18 months ago, I think is when we first looked at this project. I understand it
generated some interest and it also is rather timely because the client just contacted me
about three weeks ago and asked if we would update the figures. So, these are brand
new figures as of about one week ago - from what we have seen going on in the costs
of projects in the area. So, I was invited tonight to kind of give a quick presentation on
this and of course I am more than happy to answer any questions as we go through it.
Now, this is a five-acre site. It is fairly efficient little site. The internal roadway system
on it, the lease that we were looking at is not the most efficient, but it is not untypical
projects. It does have a cul-de-sac in it. There is a frontage road, essentially that is
only single loaded, we have to put it in because the property on the other side would
have to have access, so there is some additional costs that way to the developer that
isn't ideal, but it's not unusual. That is fairly common on developments. In five-acre
pieces it is not uncommon at all. There are no off-site costs in this at all. We made the
presumption that these folks are going to wait until all of the services were available to
the site. So, there are no fees in here for city water and sewer to this property. So, this
is essentially what would happen on that five-acre piece and then the frontage road as
far as existing public roads that are not - I am not at liberty to say specifically where this
site is, but it was kind of a good example. So, what we did is we kind of broke it down
into various categories and I can just out here at the top. Site development usually go
in first, just use some general site grating, and get set up for erosion and sediment
control management. So, there are some fees involved in just getting the site prepped
and ready to start for construction. Then the sanitary sewer is usually next - start up
some costs projects in there. Once again this is assuming the sewer is to the site. I do
have a possible reimbursement sewer fee on there. Usually developers didn't
(inaudible) to public roads (inaudible--) the sewer along the frontage into their projects
and of course if someone comes in on the other side of the road then typically the late-
comer's fees would pay for half of that and have to come back to that developer. The
next one is a (inaudible) fire protection (inaudible). The same type of thing, water is
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March 3D, 2006
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already to the site, but there would be some extensions and existing public roads and
so there is usually reimbursement possible on that also - I don't want to call it off-site,
but it is adjoining site development (inaudible). At this particular site they are due to
have some gravity and drainage facilities on it that need to be piped; however, those are
not substantial. Those are pretty small ditches. So, those are not a significant cost at
all. Those are kind of fairly normal with whatever projects. A pressure irrigation system
-- we looked at installing a pressure irrigation system in for the project and then on the
next page is public utilities, which (inaudible) Idaho Power, Intermountain Gas, Qwest,
Cable T.V. and currently, of course, all those are typically installed at joint dredge
installations, so there is a projected fee in there. There is reimbursement that comes
back on that from the utility companies and that varies a little bit from project to project,
but on this particular one it worked out to about $16,200 and then I have got the
frontage publiC street improvements and of course those would be the existing basic "c"
streets, so that was about $17,000 - (inaudible--) when you put in curb, gutter,
sidewalks, street widening, etc., and then the internal public street improvements
connects - that is just for the (inaudible) and side project and we projected some street
lights to go in and so that accounted for a total construction of about $446,000 on that
five acres. Obviously, the things that are missing in this are some of the things we call
amenities, such as landscaping, (inaudible) sensing, some ornamental entry work and
those kind of things that are not typically true engineering items, so it is up to what the
developer wants to do on that and that is usually a separate item. So, at this point and
time we usually had a contingency fee and 10 percent is really pretty tight at this point
and time, we don't have construction plans or anything, so it is just kind of a guess. So,
we have got about $490,000 for our total construction costs, which that in itself is a cost
of almost $33,000 per lot on this particular site. I can't remember if I - yeah, I took all
that part out too - a number of lots we had. I think they are projecting on this one about
three or three and one half units per acre -
Canning: Fifteen.
J. Canning: Fifteen? So, about three then. So, anyway that equates about $33,000
per lot. The total reimbursement is about $51,000 that could possibly come back to the
developer, so it ended up to about $29,000 as a net cost. Now, this does not include
any of the soft costs that are involved in the project. That is kind of the next item that
we plugged in some budget figures for the developer, which are essentially engineering,
legal, entitlement costs as far as review (inaudible) and those kinds of things. So, I put
some numbers in there. I do not include financing costs. Financing varies quite a bit
from project to project - how the developer does it - how strong he is and also the
length of the timeframe of the projects. So, we really don't know what that is. So, we
have got land surveys, concept entitlement, project design, construction and contract
administration, (inaudible) erosion control, construction surveying, construction
observation, legal consulting and then submittal and review fees. So, the total soft
costs are about $42,000, ten percent contingent on that so about $47,000. So, the cost
per lot is about $3,100 just for the soft costs. None of this includes the land either. The
land plan is obviously extra (inaudible) above this. So, all that comes into about
$32,400 for net costs after reimbursements. Then just for information for the developer,
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March 30, 2006
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these folks were from out of state and I thought I had better at least forewarn them of
impact fees that we do have here with the Ada County Highway District for Meridian City
Parks. Now those numbers I don't know if I have updated. But, I don't think the
Highway District has changed their fees since this (inaudible). I am just not sure about
the Meridian City Parks' fees. That was kind of back when it was originally done. Of
course, the developer wouldn't necessarily pay those, usually the builder does. But, I
wanted -- this particular client could be aware that those were responsibility of someone
in the area. So, that is about it.
Rohm: Would you say that that is typical for larger subdivisions, too, or does it
incrementally go down as your subdivision size - take those 20-acre subdivision
(inaudible--) per unit cost (inaudible) better?
J. Canning: Possibly. I mean, if I had somebody that has called me cold on the phone,
I would just tell them $25,000 a lot.
Rohm: There you go.
J. Canning: I figure that about upfront and then I always caution them that that then
also requires extras because the main problem with larger developments is it never fails
that if it is a small site, you know three to five or six acres it has got some major problem
it is not going to develop until something happens. Maybe the land is free and I am
talking about major situations such as a major canal going through it, a drainage facility,
something that is going to really impact the value of that project. Now as the size of the
project increases, I mean you can almost guarantee on a 200 to 400 acres site, you are
going to have some major entity or major item on there that has got to be handled,
whether it is a canal, a drainage facility, you know something - you are going to
encounter something that would increase the cost. So, what I usually tell folks is figure
$25,000 a lot plus the extras. I don't know what the extras are at that pOint and time.
We have to look at them. Maybe there is an arterial that goes through the middle of the
site that someone put on the traffic plan to be done, well, they are almost useless to the
developer as far as the costs - direct costs out of their pocket (inaudible) particularly to
collectors and little advantage as in providing perhaps some access to it's commercial
property and sometimes that helps. All those things are just extra. So, usually there is
something in there that is going to drive the cost (inaudible).
Zaremba: I guess one of the questions I have is - and this is very helpful and what I
was looking for and I appreciate that. One of the things that always challenges me is an
applicant brings in a project and maybe it's for 20 units on something (inaudible) and we
discuss some various things that we think need to be changed, probably suggested by
staff, some of them by us and we think it ought to be 19 models and they have all these
numbers in their head and we don't see any of this, but they say I can't afford to do it
with 19 models. Well, my thinking is the lots are going to be a little bit bigger, can't you
charge more for a bigger lot and you come out (inaudible) anyhow and usually they
don't seem to think that way. Am I off base or --?
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J. Canning: Well, the short answer is yes, you are off base.
Zaremba: That is what I needed to know.
J. Canning: Yeah, there might be some incremental added value to a little larger lot, but
it is really more of a function of the size of the project. Can you control your own destiny
inside the boundaries of what they are doing or are they impacted by their neighbors? If
it is a smaller site, then their neighbors are probably going to drive their price point more
than what they are doing internally. They can do some things that screws it up, but it is
really their neighbors that are going to be driving the value back.
Zaremba: Just blowing smoke.
J. Canning: Well, and just as kind of a side item, the other thing is at this pOint and time
all we can do is - we just made a quick layout of this project, took some limited footage
of roads, that threw on costs for asphalt, curb, gutter, sidewalk and all that stuff, but -
and everything in here is cost per lot, but in this particular project if you take a lot out of
here, these development costs are going to drop maybe $2,000 or $3,000 dollars
because all you are really doing is saving a couple of water services, maybe a sewer
service. The street is probably identical and almost all of your costs (inaudible) street.
Rohm: Can you talk a little bit about some of the reimbursements that are available? Is
that like sharing in that - what was the road that you were talking about, the single
(inaudible)?
(Inaudible discussion)
Rohm: Would that be one of the reimbursed rules that -?
J. Canning: No.
Rohm: -- when the adjacent property develops?
J. Canning: I mean, it would be nice, but there is not a mechanism to do that. If it is a
public road, it is going to be under the requirements and basically under the jurisdiction
of ACHD. ACHD has no mechanism on local road to make an extraction on that
adjoining land order.
Rohm: Okay. I always wondered about that.
J. Canning: Yeah, they have no mechanism to do that. The only thing that you can do
is - and it depends on the developer is putting as little as you can, which is currently 24
feet of asphalt plus curb, gutter and sidewalk, (inaudible) through on your side,
(inaudible) 24 feet of asphalt. Now, if you are talking a 32, 33 foot road section, you
know you put in two thirds of the road. Plus, you probably put in all the infrastructure
under as far as water and sewer goes. Now, the water and sewer, usually there is a
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reimbursement mechanism in place, but it starts to get a little bit iffy on whether they
use it and those kinds of things. Now, those are some of the risks you take when you
go in there. Currently, almost all collectors in the county are not on the track
improvement plan or at least a lot of them aren't, especially when you come into the
larger development. If you are putting in your own collector you probably are going to
pay for it all. So, those can get pretty pricy to do. So, I don't know if I answered all of
the questions. But, those are the three main areas we have is in sewer, water and then
the public utilities, they are the reimbursements that is allowed in there.
Rohm: I don't have much of a feel for what a residential lot goes for right now. Is that
even -
(Inaudible discussion)
Rohm: It has doubled from last year. Have they?
J. Canning: Yeah.
Borup: It is more of a supply and demand. I don't think, not because of-
J. Canning: It's not because of cost.
Borup: These figures are how old?
J. Canning: I did these about two weeks ago.
Borup: You updated these?
J. Canning: Oh yeah. This is a considerable increase.
Borup: I noticed the date, but when you said it was done a year or so ago, I thought
maybe -
J. Canning: No, I was rather shocked when I got done with this of how much an
increase in the construction cost there was over just 18 months ago.
Borup: You can't get anything under $120,000 that I know about.
(Inaudible discussion)
J. Canning: Yeah, what are our kids going to do, huh?
Borup: That's where (inaudible-). Those last prices that are somewhat familiar with --
that won't come (inaudible), but that was prices a month ago.
Zaremba: They will change next week.
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(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: But, that particular subdivision prices might (inaudible--).
J. Canning: It definitely is a high demand, low supply situation. I mean the last 12
months or so, we just had an unusual number of builders calling our office wondering
about projects and preliminary plat phases that they were trying to get tied into and that
is kind of where-
Rohm: They could tie up lots and have something to build on?
J. Canning: Right. Yeah, it has been rather unprecedented in that way.
Canning: So, now $3,000 isn't enough.
Zaremba: Would it be reasonable to assume that most of these costs are upfront costs
that the developer is going to spend that before he even sells a lot?
J. Canning: Yeah, I think all these are. Either you are going to put it in or you are going
to bond for it. So, either way you have got the funds committed and you know we are
seeing timeframes increase on these. You know we used to be able to get projects
done maybe in six to nine months, if they are smaller like this five acres, now we tell
everybody a year at least and part of that is just the construction times, not necessarily
entitlement process just trying to get contractors lined up. It is hard to find contractors.
Canning: -- for a small property.
Moe: Actually (inaudible) more right now, (inaudible) you are good. You are (inaudible)
right now, where most everybody is booked up as far as subdivision work, utilities and
whatnot - most projects that are up on right now, those are utility contractors or
(inaudible) contractors don't have any slots open for anything for a good year.
J. Canning: Then last fall - I bet we had a couple hundred lots sitting for at least 60 or
90 days because they couldn't get piped and it didn't help with that early winter either. It
all seemed to roll into one and many threw up their hands and went home.
Siddoway: Cost you $30,000 a lot and sell it for $120,000 you are still making $90,000
J. Canning: Well, it is not costing $30,000 because you can almost guarantee double
that just in your interest charges and land - if the land rezones.
Siddoway: Oh yeah, plus the land and you mentioned the landscaping and fencing-
J. Canning: Yeah, if the land is rezoned and we are seeing that (inaudible--).
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(Speaker unknown): So, Joe do you have an estimate on what developers are making
as far as net profit (inaudible)?
J. Canning: You mean before they pay the engineer or after?
(Speaker unknown): Well, land costs are well over a hundred now aren't they?
J. Canning: They are running around a hundred we are seeing. Starting to get three
per unit, $33,000 right there. That is no interest.
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: So, $33,000 on the land, roughly $30,000 on the development that is $63,000
and that doesn't have financing or landscaping (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
J. Canning: You know just some observations that we have seen in our office has been
that a lot of our particularly smaller local developers are - well, number one it is either
impossible to find land and that is the biggest problem they are facing, but they seem to
be pulling back. They are withdrawing a little bit from the market perhaps and we are
seeing quite an influx of out of state people, of course, that are coming in and that is
driving these costs up and at least as far as the smaller guy that sometimes we work
with, I think are a little bit nervous about those costs and I guess part of why they are
withdrawing. They are going to wait and see what happens to all of this.
Borup: I heard there have been some that have picked up their options just recently.
Are you hearing that too?
J. Canning: I have been hearing that, too.
(Inaudible discussion)
Siddoway: The land prices must be over-inflated.
J. Canning: I am not sure they are over-inflated, I just think it's a whole different mind
set. I mean, it is like Keith said a year ago and things have almost doubled. I think that
takes a while for the people that have been here for quite a few years for that to set in. I
think that is a lot of it. You just have to get used to that. When I bought my first house, I
think I paid $27,000 for it. A nice little house on the north end, shoot, probably
$400,000 for that thing.
Siddoway: I remember when I started here seven years ago that there was lots of
fervor and discussion going on about the cost of raw land had just doubled to $40,000
an acre, no one could believe that it was that much and now we are three times that.
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Zaremba: What you really worry about is when they stop talking about acres and start
selling it by the square foot. It happens.
J. Canning: I don't know how much profit there is. It depends, you know, on how long it
takes. Your interest rates can really chew you up.
Borup: I am sure they are making at least double (inaudible--). These partner
subdivisions, where they bought the land four phases back and when they are jumping
$20,000 or $30,000 per phase-
J. Canning: That is very good.
(Speaker unknown): So you say it is 33 percent gross margin just on the numbers you
are allowing earlier at one point?
Borup: I could see that on - it may not have done that well on the first phase, but there
is a lot of developers where they are making money now. I mean 20 years ago, I used
to hear they would say well a three phase subdivision, they would at least one
developer he would carry out his prices, what he made average and the first phase
would be under priced, the second phase would be where it needs to be and the third
phase would make up for the first phase and hopefully try to come out overall.
Anymore, it takes them (inaudible--).
J. Canning: Very true.
Borup: With a 15 to 30 day closing, so they are not sitting on their money once it is
completed.
J. Canning: No, they are not.
Zaremba: Let me ask another scenario to (inaudible) through and I have forgotten the
name of it, but we had a week or two ago (inaudible) and I don't know if you remember
the details. Something like - the project that came to us was 40 acres, but in one
corner there is like an acre and one half or two acres missing, where there is a house
on it with people living there and the developer, apparently, doesn't want to buy the
house. They bought raw land, all the rest of it and I can see the developer's point -
buying raw land is a lot cheaper than buying something with a building on it that you
have to tear it down because it not only costs you more to buy the building, but then you
are going to waste all that and spend money to tear it down besides. In something and I
don't remember if this was the exact ratio - if the whole project is 40 acres and it could
be 42 acres, wouldn't the cost of tearing that house down be miniscule spread out over
the whole 40 acres?
J. Canning: Not if the owner of that 2 acre piece is reasonable, yeah.
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Zaremba: They would want to sell it for the price with a house on it, but they didn't want
to sell it for the price of bare land. I think that is where they are having the struggle.
The developer would buy it if it was bare land, but they don't want to give it up for bare
land because they have a house they are living in and would have to move somewhere
else. Do you think that would be enough to kill a 40-acre project?
J. Canning: I don't know. It is hard to tell. It may not be just the cost. It could be other
issues. So, it is hard to tell. I am surprised it wasn't with the 40 acres in the first place.
Zaremba: Hmmn?
J. Canning: I am surprised it wasn't with the 40 acres in the first place.
Canning: We tried.
(Inaudible discussion)
J. Canning: So, he is sitting on a legal piece of property in his own house and
(inaudible--) value right there.
(Inaudible discussion)
Zaremba: So, it is not just the raw land approval (inaudible) difference that they are
asking for?
Canning: Well, it also might depend on how easy it would be to incorporate that and get
a lot more lots out of it. I mean, (inaudible--).
Zaremba: Okay. That helps me.
Rohm: Thank you, Joe.
J. Canning: Thank you very much.
Item 4:
Presentation on Access Management by Patricia Nilsson and Sue
Sullivan:
Item 5:
Presentation on US 20-26 (Chinden> Corridor Study Patricia Nilsson
and Sue Sullivan:
Nilsson: Yeah, I will just go through both presentations and if you could just interrupt
me if you have any questions at any time. I haven't done a double header before these
two, so there is a little bit overlap when you have them back to back. But, it might be
worth the while to just go through them. First the topic is access management. This is
a really abbreviated version of a much longer presentation put together by one of the
consultants on the 20-26 study and also a consultant on the Highway 44 study. Phil
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Demosston in the city and works out of the Denver office, if there is interest. He has
several decades experience with Colorado DOT and co-author of the book on access
management that was put out by the Transportation Research Board (inaudible--). Phil
is really an expert of access management and really has assembled a lot of good data.
The Transportation Research Board is part of the National Cabin of Sciences, so they
are very (inaudible) on research throughout the United States and this is a topic where
after many years a lot of the research results are coming in. So, that is kind of what I
want to share with you. I will try to keep it at maybe 10 minutes. I think (inaudible)
talked at our regional technical committee for maybe 30 minutes. So, actually since the
Oscars I was going to call this crash, but I don't think there is an Oscar for PowerPoint
(inaudible--). I want to talk about the safety aspect of access management. You know,
you are at Planning and Zoning and the developers who (inaudible) get their permit from
ITD, we always talk about the process. We want to talk about why it is important.
Access is - we are finding this on 20-26, you see that PowerPoint and you see some of
that data that the consultant put together - over half of all traffic crashes are at
intersections and driveways, so it is access related. There are factors that go into that,
but that is why designing a number of access (inaudible) - primary importance is safety.
The public sector that is kind of - the three things that you worry about - (inaudible)
safety and welfare - big safety issue in terms of managing access. In fact you see
higher rates in the urbanized area. (Inaudible) national statistics it's a quarter of all the
reported crashes at intersections (inaudible--) half of all traffic injuries for crashes at
intersections. This is Phil - I am calmer than Phil is. He really gets excited talking
about that. I get a little bit excited. This is what he actually gave to the ACHD
Commission (inaudible--) the most dangerous public facilities on the face of the earth, I
mean and they are. Every week people are killed in the United States, (inaudible--).
Now when you look at the fatality rates and statistics that is the leading cause of death
of a child between the ages of one and 14. Some worry a lot about drugs and we worry
a lot about access and you know trying to keep people safe. Six out of every ten kids
will be injured in a highway crash over their lifetime, some of them more than once.
Very sad and one of 84 today will die in a crash according to these statistics. This is
actually something (inaudible) looking at for 20-26 and 44. As a number of access
points per miles increase, you see a four percent increase in your accident rate -- such
as a composite index from data around the United States. So, that is why when we talk
about spacing of access there is an issue in terms of traffic progression, but there is
also existing safety issue that you are trying to deal with as well. This is a great little
graphic, I mean it is just there to just show what a typical intersection, five lane section,
which is typical of several roads here and all the possible points of conflict. There are
many and so at designing intersections at an access and with goals to minimize the
number of red dots there. You know you guys just talked about having to be in a new
mind set in this area, well, this is an area when you are working on the major arterial,
you are going to see things that you haven't seen before. When we talk about
(inaudible) and 20-26 being an expressway - I know Steve has had a (inaudible--) - just
hard getting your head around that, but thinking long term of what our roadway system
needs to be, it is - (inaudible) working on the five lane road. It is just not in the picture
when we are talking about 20-26. Center turn lane there were 24,000 cars a day. Is it
safe? (Inaudible--). It is bound to come up in a statement with (inaudible) traffic
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March 30, 2006
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volume. The negative impacts of not managing access - it is just another thing, you
know access management? If you don't do it or choose not to do it, you are going to
lose the roadway capacity much faster, we will have more frequent improvements, more
fixes that have to be made constantly to the corridor - as your arterials congest you will
increase cutting through traffic in neighborhoods and nobody likes that, so you are
actually broadening the impact of negative aspects of no access management to a
broader area than just the particular roadway. You will have to 200 to 400 percent more
traffic accidents on other (inaudible--). This is more getting into the designing for safety.
Basically, like I said it is eliminating those red dots, limiting points of conflict between
drivers and pedestrians. We could reduce that with a good access management and
you are going to make it a safe road. So, that is why Sue and I when we meet with
developers or pre-ops and that is why we are working with COMPASS to get a
(inaudible) agreement with ITD and other agencies and that we all need to be doing this
better because it fundamentally is about safety and it is also about (inaudible) capacity.
The (inaudible--) about speed differential - the engineers will say that speed doesn't kill,
speed differential kills and we often have notice intuitively when we drive - the speed
differential is the speed of the through traffic (inaudible) the speed of the turning vehicle.
You know it is, I guess my personal experience (inaudible) my absolute terror of driving
on the capital beltway around Washington, D.C. and I was probably going 60 and it was
probably 55 miles and coming upon a little old lady driving 35 and this is an angling road
and one direction and that is scary. What they find in terms of statistics is they have -
you are traveling 35 miles per hour and so the other traffic - you are 90 times more
likely to be in an accident. So, when we think about this and we look at a road like 20-
26 (inaudible--). If you look at the short - as the lines increase and you see the length
of the left turn lanes in either direction - totally inaccurate for the volume, so as you are
humming along at 55 mph, you got someone with their rear end literally stuck out into
the thru lane, you stopped and that is not a safe situation. So, part of the study we are
looking at how much storage volume do we need at this intersection? It is a lot. You
are also looking at grade separations maybe in the future for some of these
intersections. Yes, Sue?
Sullivan: I just wanted to add a comment that I didn't (inaudible) ask or add when Phil
gave it back, but these short turn lanes that we have out there aren't by design, they are
mostly because they (inaudible--) projects where we just - we don't have any more
right-of-way, we are just trying to fit in what we can (inaudible--).
Nilsson: As I told (inaudible) ITD is rolling in dough, just choosing not to spend it.
Again, these are probably individual fixes we talked about and not managing accesses.
You are trying to keep people moving through the arterials, but we really don't
(inaudible) big work done (inaudible). This is just some synthesis of findings kind of
before and after various roadways around the United States for people who have looked
at the before and after situations. The (inaudible) crashes are reduced by 30 to 60
percent. Capacity increases 20 to 40 percent and we get a lot of noise about we need
to widen roads, widen roads, and widen roads. We need to widen 20-26 tomorrow.
Well, I can get you the capacity if you can get me a truck load of jersey carriers with
close off access and you will get a ton more capacity on that road. But, that is not really
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March 30, 2006
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- people aren't going to swallow that. The point we are trying to make is that capacity
can be increased in managed access and in this day and age when we are talking
about $100,000 an acre to widen a road and that is what the taxpayers are going to
have to pay and that we just have to be more efficient with our public investments that
we have today. I don't know how better to say that. This is a study that was kind of a
before and after. This is in the old Georgia (inaudible). This had been a typical
(inaudible) and they went in afterwards and they put in the medians that you see there.
Typically Phil talks about - he deals with a lot of Public Works Directors around the
country and they get very nervous when they start trying to search (inaudible) round-a-
bout and they are really, really - when the data comes in after that. So, this in terms of
safety and what they found after the project was constructed - a huge safety increase. I
won't go through each number, but a lot of the things (inaudible--) has calculated to
probably saving 15 lives. How much do you (inaudible--) as a P&Z Commissioner or as
a little planner and you say, you know we could have saved 15 lives. That is
tremendously satisfying for folks in the (inaudible) center and bureaucrats like my self.
(Inaudible--). This is we will say emerging items and this is what we are looking at the
corridors in Ada County onto 20-26 and 44. No driveways unless it is a necessity - half
mile urban (inaudible) signal spacing and that is really a minimum. On 44 and 20-26 we
are going to try and at least maintain the speed locals and not increase them. It is going
to be tough (inaudible--) even have the half mile progression, but that is something that
we are going to have to be really focused on is the signal time and the real operations of
the corridor and that is from the access and the driveway controls to really make a half
mile work. (Inaudible) to medians and those are all arterials and did get some of that
volume issue after a certain volume, but that length just isn't safe anymore. They call it
the suicide lane and there is a reason for that. Then this is really kind of technical, but
complete network hierarchy - this is really what you are all more familiar with
(inaudible). We talked - you know Steve and Matt (inaudible) functional classification
maps in the area and has spent several days of their life on that particular topic, but
basically it is having a complete street network and having the streets be designed and
functioned for their purpose - you know, residential streets, collectors (inaudible) but we
have more of a minor arterial in our arterial classes of roads that (inaudible--). I think
the North Meridian Plan is good where the city really looked at filling in the
transportation grid, then normally you will find some city comprehensive plans and that
is what we really need to - you provide a transportation system that is suited for the
lane you said it is going through, it is really what that means. I just sort of wanted to
touch on this a bit, you know, but (inaudible) do establish crash rates. I mean it might
seem somewhat abstract when you are approving a rezone or a subdivision, but that is
what really determines how the road is going to function. Where the access points are,
the frequency, the types of access if they are a driveway or a commercial or residential
or public street and that really establishes how many points per mile and in establishing
the crash rates for those corridors. I think we have gotten a lot better at least in the two
years that I have had the career of transportation and the awareness of that -- through
probably more - kind of the transportation planners, maybe a little bit ACHD where Sue
and I did a tech review on subdivisions and really try to constructively get our people
away from more access points, seeing more ordinances around the area - Meridian
adopted that change recently to limited access on State Highways as Kuna has done,
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March 30. 2006
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Caldwell has done and you have seen that. This is almost a worst case scenario, there
isn't an interchange and that is why the Ten Mile Interchange study will be a great thing
for Meridian to get done. (Inaudible--) and how that and the customers of those
businesses trying to get in and out if that was a really busy (inaudible). This is another
- pulled the access points back from the on and off ramps and provided more of a local
circulation system parallel, so this is (inaudible) visibility when you don't have direct
access close to the interchange. You know that stuff is so easy to do. It really is -- with
a little more thought, it is really easy to accomplish and the benefits long term, which is
the (inaudible).
(Speaker unknown): Notice that the road infrastructure is preceding the development.
guess that is just what strikes me - we don't have that here.
Nilsson: That was 20-26 out in the Caldwell area and I guess you could look at the -
those are the things you look at when you have the frontage along the highway and one
thing we encouraged the (inaudible--) is to really make that deep enough to get in some
back-age roads, which Meridian has done through the North Meridian Plan. That is
pretty shallow. You just (inaudible) gosh, what is that going to be used for? Do you
think they will want access to the highway? You don't have any (inaudible) there
(inaudible) obvious, so those are the - that is how we spend our time day in and day out
trying to get some quick fixes as (inaudible). So, that is pretty much it. Why don't I
jump to the 20-26 - do you have any questions on that? A lot going on and we will have
our - I will talk a little bit about our public meetings on 20-26. We will have a station just
on access management. There will be some (inaudible) education about the topic
(inaudible-- ).
(Speaker unknown): You had mentioned on some of these extra (inaudible) for the turn
lanes and not being able to get to the driveway - how - what has transpired working
with developers on paying some of that right-of-way? And when it is over - I know - I
guess you need to pay for it, basically, but that seems like the time to maybe work
something out. Say, yeah, you need to be reimbursed, but we don't have the money to
reimburse you, so because of that we can't approve the projects, here are the
(inaudible) and is going to have to wait until we have the money. We will let them work
out the solution.
Nilsson: Well, be careful not to be specific. I think some of the conversations that we
have had are still in the (inaudible) for the (inaudible), but we have had the - we have
had some folks twice now in tech review and I walk in and they see me now and they
are like oh, do you want to stay for ours and (inaudible--)? Twice that has happened.
We have 200 feet and we are not taking any access to the State Highway. I am like,
that is alii wanted to hear. That is great. I guess now two cases now where people just
don't want to do that (inaudible--). (Inaudible--) quickly in the study that Sue and the
consultants developed a typical cross section. We really had to understand - we had to
put the numbers to paper - how wide the road we really need to have it to meet the ITD
standards, which are really based in safety? So you have - Sue can probably - I will
(inaudible) but you can correct me if I screw up at all. Basically, you are going to have a
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March 30, 2006
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median and at intersections you are going to have turn lanes and you are going to
account for that space. You are going to account for traveling, two in each direction.
(Tape turned over - side two)
Nilsson: -- you are going to have utilities and (inaudible) and I guess on the edge. Is
that --? So, I don't know how many iterations, but Sue and (inaudible) and Washington
Group for Highway 44 did, but it all came out about 200 feet total. So, that is what we
are asking for. The study will nail down exactly what that road is going to look like. We
will get a right-of-way plan will do - it is actually project development to widen roads -
does not show exactly what that picture is going to be along each segment of the road,
but just (inaudible--) is what we need, so we try to get it or we try to at least say please
don't put any structures within 100 feet of the center line. The landscape is an issue,
but they are not going to give us the 100 feet from center line (inaudible--) that is going
to take out some of the landscaping along the (inaudible).
Canning: Are they giving you flax still? I mean, our code now says right-of-way shall be
as determined by lTD.
Sullivan: (Inaudible) got some push back on it.
Canning: I think we have been requiring them - we can't make them dedicated, but we
are making them provide the - start the landscape buffer - we put it in a separate lot for
you to purchase and then their landscape buffer is beyond that.
Sullivan: One of the concerns, in fact I think I just wrote this in the letter (inaudible), but
one of the concerns that they have is that they think it should be an urban section and
that it should have storm sewer, curb and gutter to help pull in the right-of way with.
Quite a while back when I started to look at what do we need and I did. I went through
iterations trying to pull it in, but for one I don't know - I have done storm sewer design
and it can be very challenging to try and find, especially now where you are going to
drain that water to and the cost of the storm sewer was very comparable to the cost of
the land and then there is an additional cost for future maintenance, you know, for the
service life of that system. So, in my mind something to balance, the only reason that
you would put that storm sewer in is for the benefit of the development, which certainly I
suppose there is a case for that, but not on an individual basis that maybe for a city.
Another thing I wanted to keep in mind is (inaudible) is that it also allows and this isn't
really the main idea behind it, but it does have a certain level of comfort for flexibility for
the future because if we tighten in that - I mean we are not going to be in there again,
so let's get what we need and make sure that if you need six lanes someday, we can
squeeze in six lanes.
(Speaker unknown): For your presentation on the 18th for the Council, I would make
sure that (inaudible--).
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March 30, 2006
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Canning: And maybe show a cross section, the one with the rural cross section and
then show -- okay if we kept this rural section, but then somehow we needed to go back
through and do a third lane, this section fits in there.
Siddoway: Twenty, thirty years from now it wouldn't surprise me one bit to say we need
a third lane in each direction on 20-26.
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: That is Eagle Road at Pine, yeah.
Nilsson: I just want to - I have to do this just for my own education because when we
don't manage access well, combine that with high volumes that are forecasted, gosh,
does that sound familiar? Eagle Road? So, what is going to happen in their future the
decision has been made, the signs aren't up yet. The speed is going down on the road
to 45 mph and the full traffic model that COMPASS maintains is based on speed and
how many trips are going into the system and then do a metrics, how many lanes? Is it
to capacity? (Inaudible--) models is just a bunch of calculations and it is trying to find
the fastest path for people to point "a" to point "b". So, the (inaudible) of speed has a
huge effect on the capacity on the roadway and so I said (inaudible) this scenario. Let's
take Eagle Road down to 45, then let's screw up Highway 44 and drop it to 35, which
most people I talked to seems like a reasonable thing, you know? Highway 44 is kind of
complex. There is a lot of development that goes through those towns, so you know a
lot of volume on 44, seeing a lot of growth coming down on 16 and all of that. So, okay,
let's do that to Highway 44. Let's really screw up and drop US 20-26 to 35 miles per
hour. We did our iterations and oh, we screwed up 44 and basically said everybody
was trapped (inaudible--). (Inaudible--) pretty much all the capacity is gone. When you
(inaudible) 20-26 you do a model run. It is like an 11 x 17 maps (inaudible--) and we
are staring at it and actually I had him do a big one, so it took me all the way out to
Caldwell and the Interstate and down Victory Road and (inaudible--) were with me and
we all sat around and looked at it. It doesn't seem right (inaudible--). You can't just
look at 20-26, realize that doesn't make sense to me and trying to understand what the
model is doing because you know, I was actually (inaudible) at a regional scale like that
and then it dawned on me they had to (inaudible--) before. The system was so over
capacity, the model was refusing to assign cars to the network. This actually has a
pretty generous capacity. It probably goes, I think, at least 30 percent over, maybe 50
percent over capacity. But above a certain rate, it is so congested that people won't
drive; they can't get out on the (inaudible). That is what the model was doing. It wasn't
assigning trips. So, it is that whole area 1-84 North to Eagle Road that we looked at was
totally over capacity, so 6,000 cars load up next to (inaudible) in Caldwell. We saw
thousands of diversions south of Interstate. So, that is pretty much all I needed to
realize we just have got to go gang busters on 20-26 and not that fail because it is just
like Southern California, like any other place when you are just stuck. These aren't
peak hours, these were 24 hour volumes and that is really bad. That is really bad. We
talk about all this growth that comes into town, people are out there and they are driving
and all of our household estimates and everything goes into model and really pretty
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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much represents our behavior and the types of housing we have. That is why the
demographic committee is really important. So, if you think our numbers are low it is
going to be worse. It is not pretty. So, that is why these regional principle arterials are
just so critical for the entire region that we keep moving traffic. That is why we don't
want the speeds to degrade and they probably will have to on 20-26. I don't know, just
the volume and what we can afford to do, but if we can at least keep it to 45 mph, we
will have our neck above water, but it could really fail - I am just glad I live in southeast
Boise. It is bad for Meridian and it is bad for a lot of people at this corridor scale.
Actually we talked at the North Meridian workshops - when was that?
Siddoway: That was back in -- September?
Nilsson: Yeah, I think it was last fall and Sue and I - it was one of those weird meetings
where it was like a public meeting, but it was really (inaudible) developing the property
for there. You know, you guys were there. Some of you here were there, I know.
David you were there. So, I had some really good conversations with (inaudible) and
they understand how important it is to not (inaudible) because it hurts them and when
(inaudible) out of state developers, they get it. (Inaudible--) and you know Joe was
talking about the impact fee. Well, we have colleagues at ACHD who call it (inaudible--)
well, we have this impact fee here - where these people are coming from is they pay a
lot more into it actually. They are quite happy with pay - (inaudible) is cheap there. As
you all know the whole premise for Blueprint is trying to get some concurrency and that
our road dollars are just not adequate for the task and we will see. I will just tell you that
this capacity speed issue on 20-26 is big. If we have to assume a four lane, then
(inaudible), might need a six lane - we have probably what we need, but we have no
money. ITD has no money to build a six lane. I am just the princess of darkness and
gloom tonight, but that is the reality that Sue has to work in. Let me go back to some of
the processes. I wanted to show you the map of the corridor. This I actually cut and
pasted out of the Communities in Motion. I had to really encourage your participation in
that process. This is the draft plan. (Inaudible--) street and now (inaudible) involvement
and I know Steve is just going to have Meridian - we ought to have a contest for the
most (inaudible--) by jurisdiction.
Siddoway: I did ask Carrie to send a (inaudible) bag for this too and the Planning and
Zoning Commission. So, if you are interested in having your own internal discussion
about the regional long-range transportation plan, there is an opportunity coming in
early May (inaudible) right?
Nilsson: Yep. This is 20-26. This is the Communities in Motion 2030 plan, the draft
plan. You see Highway 44 up here and the Interstate is over here. You see this blue
line here, which is 20-26 and you see this blue line which is Highway (inaudible). It is a
new category that we are planning for and it is called an expressway. That is something
_ you know talking about changing your mindset, this is probably pretty new in Idaho. If
you are from anywhere else, you are probably quite familiar with that kind of road. It is
still an urban road, high speed, out of the controlled access, but you still would have
probably on - after its signals, state intersections, but the volumes of the plan is looking
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March 30, 2006
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at interchanges, possibly at the mile. I mean, definitely we talked about Highway 16
and I think you see some of that replicated in the North Meridian Plan along 20-26 at
least here and I think you see interchanges on 16. We also look to evaluate a need for
interchanges along 20-26.
Zaremba: Can I ask a question? Did you say that this is a future map?
Nilsson: Yeah, this is what is being proposed in the Communities in Motion plan.
Zaremba: For how many years from now?
Nilsson: 2030.
Zaremba: So it is already kind of what is already happening? We are becoming that
map already in the North Meridian area?
Nilsson: Well, I am not sure about the interchanges, but it definitely in the future of
volume in this level of service after we widen 20-26.
Zaremba: I am looking at the land use. We already (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Nilsson: This is just city limits.
Zaremba: Well, our city limits are over (inaudible).
Siddoway: They do have -
(Inaudible discussion)
Zaremba: Well, what I am saying is we are talking about whether this is going to
happen in months when theirs is 30 years away.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I think those are city limits. There are a lot more subdivisions out there, but I
think those are pretty close to our city limits right now.
Zaremba: Yeah, but not 30 years from now.
Siddoway: (Inaudible--) future city limits.
Nilsson: Yeah, future city limits, but the plan to show our urban development and - I
mean our assumptions going in (inaudible) in 20-26 (inaudible). It is an urban roadway
and there is no rural. (Inaudible--) transportation - as we are looking at the
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March 30, 2006
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demographic (inaudible). I have (inaudible) scenarios. I have got to (inaudible) traffic
analysis and how many households will be living out there too (inaudible). It is a lot.
The (inaudible) scenario for Communities in Motion is the community choices scenario
and does target all these roads within cities and urban areas and that is what we are
dealing with (inaudible--) corridors. So, it really wouldn't matter, just different levels and
everybody is going to get that principle arterial on the way. They really are encouraging
your participation. The shaded area is a study to look at a river crossing between
Middleton and Star. We are going to have the six or so mile gap between Middleton
Road and Star and looking for (inaudible) for that because - well, I am here to talk
about 20-26, but (inaudible). The City Clerk called me after I talked to Star and said I
can't believe you got their attention. I said we are going to be talking about a bypass
around Star. Yes, Steve.
Siddoway: On the expressway design for 20-26, my understanding is that it is likely that
the half-mile access may not be there, we just have a one mile. At least that is just one
of the options for expressway.
Nilsson: That would be an option, yeah.
Siddoway: I don't know if the Commissioners know (inaudible) discussion to have it at
Council in the North Meridian plan, but just throw it out for discussion - we talked about
20-26 through North Meridian from Eagle to McDermott and the idea of having a great
separated expressway that interchanges at the mile. I know access at the half-mile, but
they are pretty committed to those half-mile accesses and we have been -
Zaremba: -- given them away already, so-
Siddoway: -- and the back-age road network that we have approved with North
Meridian plan functions as long as there are half-mile accesses, but if those go away
and it goes to the mile then that back-age road network would have to do something
different. So, I released on the record through Communities in Motion and this is where
I have somewhat of an internal struggle because I understand that restricting it to mile
accesses provides greater capacity and we just talked about the dire needs for capacity
improvements and maintaining that capacity, but right now we are moving toward what
ITD calls type four accesses, which is half-mile accesses. I don't know if -
Nilsson: I mean, (inaudible) is a minimum access, but the volumes and I mean the thing
that will rule other full access at the half-mile is going to stay full access or it is going to
become a (inaudible) - from the (inaudible) and the right of ITD to maintain a safe
roadway. I don't know, this is again getting out of your mindset of today and projecting
into the future what that (inaudible) might be and it is going to be a lot different from
other roads that you are going to see - that you typically see today (inaudible) and it is
the word expressway.
(Inaudible discussion)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Siddoway: (Inaudible) do we - are we committed? Do we-
Nilsson: Yeah, you know what - it is tough and as we go through the - this is a
federally funded study and it is going to go through an alternatives analysis and that is
going to be one of those alternatives. I mean, I don't know how - lines on it and
different cross sections will be alternatives. Think of a new Broadway or three cities, we
have got all these lines on the map and those are the alternatives now (inaudible) the
study of 20-26 is going to be what the line looks like. The line is going to be pretty much
in the same place. It might be a little bit off center in places, but-
Siddoway: And if those alternatives are analyzed and then compared in terms of
progression speeds and congestion or whatever, you know, performance in safety
measures then that is the kind of data that the Commission and Council can use to say
we stand by what we did or we rethink what we have been doing, but at least then we
have something to base it on.
Nilsson: Right.
Zaremba: The difficulty is how do we rethink what we have been doing? We have
already recommended approvals on the (inaudible) half-mile access. That is done.
Borup: Does it make a difference if it is urban area or a more rural area or you just kind
of (inaudible--)?
Siddoway: That's what (inaudible) talking about.
Borup: I'd have more words - highly commercialized and dense - maybe the traffic
lights there. It makes sense. I mean, you have got a lot of businesses; you are going to
need the access.
Canning: That is what (inaudible) and engineers ultimately had to compare those two
alternatives (inaudible--).
Borup: I don't see 20-26 quite the same as Eagle Road and Fairview.
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: I mean as far as the commercial development around.
Nilsson: Well, yeah a different scale, but still-
Siddoway: 20-26 west of McDermott, even it seems in the future that it is still is different
than 20-26 east of McDermott in terms of urban verses rural.
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March 3D, 2006
Page 21 of 60
Sullivan: It is not so much as maybe long term it will look the same, but the difference is
that we have the opportunity now west to get that one mile spacing if we can figure out
how we get there. But, this area is pretty much platted for the most part.
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: I just want to comment on signalization. (Inaudible) on basically this type of
road and some of them seem - I mean, if the lights are synchronized you move right
along. Others you are stopping at every light and I don't see very many places around
Boise where the lights (inaudible--) because the traffic makes a difference?
Nilsson: There has been quite an investment by ACHD and ITD in intelligent
transportation system components. (Inaudible) actually 20-26 is a corridor at least at
the (inaudible) is vibrant, but pretty much downtown Boise synchronized, but what will
set it off, though is an ambulance, emergency service and really screw up the
synchronization up for over 10 or 15 minutes sometimes, depending on the time of day
and the signal timing. But, the others there is a regional intelligent transportation
system plan that was done through COMPASS back in 1999 and right now it is being
updated by ACHD and a whole group of people laying out what they call the system
architecture, which is a fancy word for basically the infrastructure that you need on
certain roads.
Borup: Well, that is what I was wondering if that is done and having a half-mile access
points can be minimized fairly quickly (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Nilsson: But, actually what I was going to say (inaudible) with ACHD (inaudible--) and
single regression volumes and I know they sent that one email and - and ITD for Eagle
Road improvements we worked part of that (inaudible) Eagle Road is that intelligent
transportation system and getting those lights and a vibrant intelligent systems in to
enhance progression and that is really a high volume of (inaudible--). I haven't seen too
much details on that, but there is a lot of attention being paid to that comment on that
Eagle Road construction, it is not just widening or not widening, but conscious of
landscaping and all that that (inaudible--).
Stiles: I just had a question - well, I just noticed that the city has improved a couple of
variances or access to highways. Do they have control over that and if they don't have
the political will to say no to that, I mean in the planning world and the reality world and
that is two different things.
Nilsson: (Inaudible) took it well, but on March 10th we had a corridor preservation
committee meeting (inaudible-) and Monty McClure of the ITD Board attended and
Monty got an earful from Meridian, then Eagle and Caldwell and Ada County about
access permitting and Monty learned a lot in that meeting about the process. Before
then it had been an issue and I am actually working on a cooperative agreement with
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March 30, 2006
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ITD and the COMPASS member agencies on how to better integrate the land
development process with the access permitting function of lTD. Now (inaudible)
probably shoot the moon for it, but at least I talked to enough people and I was telling
Sue today that before I put pen to paper, I am going to be doing a lot of interviews with
different agency people because there are different perspectives on the process that we
need to understand first before we say this is really how we need to make it work. I am
not sure how - I mean, I will have to get some options from the very impressive
coordination to business as usual, which I think is not acceptable to most people.
Basically, the purpose of the corridor plan is to make the access permit decision a snap
(inaudible). No maybes. No, let's just talk about it or we will appeal this to the
executive permits committee at headquarters at ITO and you know we have got to have
from bottom to top full support and this is the plan for support. That is it. Monty got an
earful about how the cities are trying to help ITO and ITO is not helping the cities with
their decision, so I think hopefully the cities will feel the need to - will have less of a
need to grant these (inaudible). But, I think they are doing it following ITD's decisions
on permits.
Siddoway: Yes.
Sullivan: I would like to flush out that conversation a little bit. One of the issues that is
in locations all over the Valley and in particular on Eagle Road is that they are deeded
access points on the highway that were negotiated when they went to widen the
highway and in purchasing the right-of-way -
Siddoway: -- years ago.
Sullivan: -- yeah. They are all over the place. Right now the legal advice is that a
concern that if we take away deeded access rights we have to pay for it. We don't have
the money to pay for all of these access points. There also is even an issue to some
degree about existing access and what implied right they have there. I am not an
attorney and I - there are some things that I, you know, can't quite understand, but I
guess I would encourage you guys if you see something that is happening that isn't
sitting right - I mean, feel comfortable using your land use authority to restrict that
access to the best of your ability if you feel like that is what is best for that site location
because there is some places where it is really kind of constrained by some of those
property right's issues.
Borup: I think we have had some of the past troubled access points - now before - and
the designing that we cut it down to two, as long as we get these two. That seems like
a good compromise sometimes.
Sullivan: Yeah, that is happening a lot.
Canning: (Inaudible) says none.
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Sullivan: You know I believe myself and I suppose you can get into these discussions
where the developer has perspective, but I think they can function without those if the
infrastructure is set up right to allow them to do that. In some places, maybe we can't
get that infrastructure set up, but it is a learning curve and it is a bit of a struggle, but
honestly you guys are, I would say, have been the cutting edge on that in Idaho. Kuna
had the ordinance first, but really I think in your case in Meridian we have really pulled
together just to a more comprehensive package a little double system, you know,
including the parallel collectors and the berms and the whole deal. I mean, often when I
am in other places I talk about your ordinance and that I would like to see that
implemented in other parts of southwest Idaho. So, I think there are some growing
pains happening, but I would encourage you to - as I told some of our staff, I said what
happens then and I can understand how you guys would feel like, well we don't have
the transportation expertise to make those kinds of decisions on what the ramifications
of that access or no access are. That is where I can see that maybe there might be
some discomfort on the city's side, but if we can find a way to work through that, even if
it is just getting together at staff level and giving some advice.
Zaremba: I think the thing that I find discomfort with is we get to a public hearing, know
what the Meridian ordinance is and it has been well pointed out to the applicant or the
developer and they try and put us in between kind of what they want. I guess the
difficulty is we have a Meridian ordinance that says you can't do it, but there is no ITO
regulation that we could point to and say "aha" that says the same thing.
Sullivan: We do have a policy.
Zaremba: Well, I know there is a policy, but the developers say it is just a policy. It is
not a rule and I have this application in front -
Canning: In the letter from the access management folks says we will grant you three
access points, if your variance approves and the way Council reads that is oh, these
must be okay then and I think that your conversation with them will help a lot on these.
They are not hearing from - to give the Commission an update - they approved it
(inaudible--). They denied the Sadie Creek one. They approved the one on Highway
69 at Overland, but I asked them to reconsider that action and so that will be back up
before them on the 18th. That is the only time I have ever done that and they didn't yell
at me, but there is some confusion as to what they approve and I am just asking that
they reconsider it in it's entirety and they will approve the (inaudible) by then (inaudible)
and hopefully they will maybe better understand what ITO is saying. They think that hey
the transportation engineers are saying this okay, we should just grant these. So, it is
difficult.
Zaremba: Well, I guess the situation I am describing is like when a kid goes to mom
and asks a question and it doesn't get the answer they like then they go to dad and ask
the same question. We need to be able to say everybody, ITD and ACHD, Meridian,
the County and COMPASS somewhere all have to have the same rule. So that we
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
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don't go to a public hearing in front of all the public and act like people are putting off
against each other.
Sullivan: We are having it changed to our access management policy and they are
going to try and get an interim, temporary rule change which I think starts right after this
session is over. So, I am not entirely sure what that will look like, it is just something
that the conversation has just started, but hopefully that will tie up some of the gaps.
Canning: What will it say?
Sullivan: I don't know. I just know that it was-
Zaremba: You are welcome to use our ordinances when-
Sullivan: When it came to a point where it was pointed out by those who would be
interested in going to court over it, it said that it is just a policy it is not a rule and so as
far as property rights go, you can only - only the rule applies and so we are going to
have to try and get that into the rules ordinance.
Nilsson: That is what we want to sort out in these (inaudible) agreements (inaudible--)
and legal authority for (inaudible) meeting not just with the agencies, but with the
attorneys (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion)
Hood: We are talking about State Highways and along the same line we run into on just
arterials with ACHD and I don't want to go down that road too much, but keep in mind
what I try and tell folks is we don't have strict policies of what your off sets need to be
and things like that, but we do have policies that we can't limit those access points.
Sometimes ACHD they - you can have several access points, but the numbers that
Trish showed earlier are going to be the same on any arterial street (inaudible) the
highway. You are going to have more accidents. You are not going to be as efficient
on the roadway system and what I tell applicants when they are showing every possible
access that ACHD will give them, where they have got existing accesses now; we have
the land use authority. You want to be annexed into - you like your existing home now
and in 48 years and you like your access that much, keep it then. If you want to
develop it though this is what our ordinance says and even if ITD or ACHO is going to
get the access points, we don't have to grant it. This is where you develop, not with ITO
or ACHD, but with you guys. It hurts when the City Council says well you can have it
anyway, but at least here and that is what I am trying to do is say we are trying to - you
know and they know that I am (inaudible--) and go up and get it (inaudible).
Canning: The Council has upheld all the ones that are residential. It is the commercial
that they are most reluctant to -
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March 30. 2006
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Hood: If they approve it, but you still have the authority to say no. Well, then I
(inaudible) if you really like it that much, then you know, we don't want your project. Get
something that maybe you like that has access.
Nilsson: Well, if you think on 20-26 and you know you work on the project, but when
you see those (inaudible) results, you know I don't really care about the project. They
have their needs I guess. But, to be fair to new developers, you can't just say no to the
access, you have to have an alternative and that is looking at that local network and that
is why at least in North Meridian we kind have that already. Other places it is too much
of a (inaudible). Now they if they have reasonable access to another street there is
really no need to have it on that State Highway. You don't have to give it to them.
There is the 67 6509, you know giving the authorities to zone; access is specifically set
in there (inaudible--). Always have to look at a perspective if you are evaluating the
access from the land to the highway and ITD is in the highway looking at access, you
know, that way, but you have that authority. I mean you shouldn't think of yourself as
secondary to ITO or ACHD.
Sullivan: And part of it is expectation and I think that I read this somewhere in some
report about how so much - I mean, nobody ever even thinks about coming in and
asking for an access to the Interstate. I mean it is obvious and we have -
Zaremba: Well, we are at Ten Mile.
Sullivan: But they are on - on 20-26 the half-mile access has been going pretty
smoothly for the most part. I think one developer might be trying to sneak in a quarter
mile, but and we will see what happens there, but it's been going pretty smoothly, I think
because the expectation has been set. We talked about it enough. It is in the
ordinance. I think Eagle Road has a bit of a this loss cause ambiance about it and even
when the engineers submit their traffic impact study, they even say things like that. Like
well it is basically already at capacity, so it doesn't matter. So, hopefully, we can
continue to at least take strides on the corridors that we can protect and as we go south
on Meridian Road -
(Inaudible discussion)
Zaremba: Well that is why we are so concerned about 20-26. I mean, you mentioned
16 and Meridian Road south, knowing that Eagle Road was behind the curve to begin
with and we want to make sure we are ahead of the curve.
Canning: And if 69 is going to go expressway, we need to know by yesterday or Kuna
needs to know.
Sullivan: If you ever feel like there is a development that you want me to be here for to
ask questions, I can do that. I can't come to all of them just out of a - but, if you feel like
there is something on the related that is special that I can bring the transportation piece
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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to say well, in other words we are going to have to approve that because it is needed,
but it is not something that we think is a good situation if you need to hear that.
Borup: Could we just have that as a memo (inaudible).
Sullivan: You know I have asked our attorney (inaudible). I have asked, can I say is
anybody going to have heartburn if I say annexation like you are talking about that it is
in the best interest of the public to have this access spacing and we would recommend
that this development relinquish all access points between there. I really didn't get an
answer out of him.
Zaremba: One of the things that we have to work around is that maybe a developer
should just (inaudible) five acres and the acreage around them is not developing, where
we would put a back-age road, so at the moment they don't have any other opportunity
for access, but the one that are in need for. Is there a way that we could perhaps in the
development agreement or whatever you can use this access now, but when eventually
an alternative comes, you must give up this access?
Sullivan: Yeah, we have had a few of those where we have had it on the plat, but it is
temporary and will be removed when alternate access is available and it has been on
some plats and we haven't yet been to the point where we have taken one away, but
yeah that is kind of the way we are -
Zaremba: (Inaudible--) plats that can be (inaudible).
Sullivan: Yeah, we are handling it that way now.
Nilsson: I want to quickly go through the process. Sue, see those handouts right there?
Could you start those around? Some people don't like these words "study" and they are
like oh, all you do is study and I feel like it is really project development on 20-26. The
process going through the National Revenue Policy Act Requirements for federally
funded study and kind of where we are right now is just before step three. We have got
numerous stakeholder interviews over last fall (inaudible--) the whole length of it with
the property, owner and developers and the Mayor, ACHD, anyone with a utility
company, UPS, anyone who has an interest in traveling on 20-26. I learned a lot from
those and that is where we really learned almost to a (inaudible) that they want to
maintain the speed on that (inaudible) that highway as an alternative to 1-84. Highway
44 was more a variety (inaudible..), 20-26 was just keep it a highway, you know I want
to be traveling on that, I don't want to be stopping at lights all the time. I don't want to
be on another Eagle Road. The other thing we are doing is by technical data and
preliminary traffic analyses have been done, an environmental study has been done
and the handouts you have - we have some first that we call scoping (inaudible--) to
make sure we really understand all the issues out there. So, there is two meetings that
are scheduled one in Ada County and one in Canyon County and I really encourage
your attendance on that. It will be somewhat of an open house format. I haven't
worked at all the specific logistics and we probably would opt for small discussion as
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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well. Like some (inaudible--) just to (inaudible-) track of access management and
other topics - environmental standards. After that the consultants will come up with the
alternatives or the highway and those were both through environmental assessment,
which is kind of a formal term in NEPA. They are familiar with EIS, Environmental
Impact Statements that really impact (inaudible) not as a real bust investigation. We
just feel that there is really - after the environmental (inaudible) there really aren't going
to be some major impacts that would require an EIS. (Inaudible--) pass around
Middleton, they have got 450 storage structures, and of course it is going to be EIS. We
(inaudible--) do an EA and then have to go to court like (inaudible) and be forced to do
an EIS. Highway 44 has EIS written all over it. Alternatives of evaluation, they will go
through the evaluation process based on the public values and the agency needs are
for that (inaudible) could reach from the roadside features and into a road (inaudible--)
to speed, safety performance, and a variety of criteria that then the alternatives will all
be (inaudible). Take the third alternative in terms of how all the alternatives rate out to
the public and then have a public hearing, which is a need for requirement in the
process. Then the deliverable (inaudible--) environmental document, which federal
highways will have to approve before I can even purchase right-of-way - national right-
of-way plan, which is kind of a survey document and I also want to (inaudible---), but
you want to get the locals a quarter plan. This is your 20-26 Comp Plan, basically and
that picture they will hang on the wall everywhere just like the (inaudible) and other
jurisdictions. This is the corridor that we are going to have here in the future and how
each individual property plays into that. That will be the highway, but also be that local
network as well. So, you really are going to - it had engaged ACHD (inaudible--) came
out of district and (inaudible--) and then adoption of that.
Siddoway: Where are we now?
Nilsson: Just before three. We have done the interviews. We have done a lot of the
technical data gathering analysis. We really have gotten a good understanding of the
corridor, what it is now and what is going to really meet the (inaudible--) in the future.
Siddoway: Do you think adoption is a year away or is further than that or is it closer
than that?
Nilsson: I think it would be really (inaudible--) considered in a year a one half. The one
thing about 20-26 is we just don't see a lot of controversies. I mean, you know it's
(inaudible--) it's a difference of a 30 feet right-of.way, or a little more than that, but it is
not like we have people saying don't widen the road or stay away. People have - we
even interviewed (inaudible--) a property owners wife at Ada County and they own a
home on 20-26, just west of Black Cat and (inaudible-). It is an old house. (Inaudible)
and he is now a judge. Those are kind of the stakeholders and those are reasons
(inaudible--) and we are going to have to move the house or we are just going
(inaudible--) hopefully they can just do it on the north side of the road, but I mean it was
already so noisy there that they had put up a fence as a necessity and they had put a lot
of money in that house, too. Right off the bat, they said yeah, we understand you guys
have got to widen that road. But, they have seen personally so many accidents that it
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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affects their enjoyment of living there. They get it. I don't know how much more you
want to go. This is the crash history. I just wanted to show you briefly and with the
consultant I got all the crash records from ITD - 500 crashes, 8 fatal. The crash rate,
look at that, 67 percent? Wasn't that like the national average in that first line? Isn't
that amazing? Thirty-three percent injury crashes were access related. Sixty-two
percent of the fatal were access related (inaudible--) section on driveway.
Borup: How long of a section?
Nilsson: That is for the whole corridor (inaudible--) Gem County to Eagle Road in Ada
County.
Siddoway: Tricia if you could send me the PowerPoint, I can email it to the
Commissioners.
Nilsson: Yeah, I actually sent it to (inaudible--) just because it had some more slides
because of (inaudible) strengths and there is some hidden slides that you can unhide if
you want, even more pictures of bad accesses. But, I thought the crash - and that is
something they will do (inaudible) of safety analysis (inaudible). Do you have any
particular questions on 20-26 as we move forward on work? We are really up to our
eyeballs right now (inaudible) all of the change along the corridor. Like Sue said, it
helps to be in a hearing or any information, you know I am a poor substitute for Sue, but
I can always show up. I show up for tech review. I just like the imagery. (Inaudible--).
(Tape turned over)
Nilsson: -- if you tried to travel that intersection, through that interchange it is really,
really bad.
Rohm: What are they going to do specifically at that area?
Nilsson: (Inaudible) do you know what the design looks like?
Sullivan: I don't handle it. It is major improvement to the interchange and that other
side all the way into Caldwell. There is actually - Caldwell has a couple of projects that
are tied to it.
Nilsson: It will be at least a four lane cross, where it is two lanes now.
Siddoway: I think we have got the access management on all of these; we just don't
have the 20-26 one.
Nilsson: I will try cut - it is a big design.
Siddoway: Yeah, if we could just get a big printout, we could just get copies.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Nilsson: I guess I could burn it on CD's for you guys, if you want me to.
Siddoway: Would you rather have it on CD or would you rather have it printed out?
(Inaudible discussion)
Nilsson: We could do both. Dave wants it printed.
Zaremba: I could do it on CD.
Nilsson: Just as long as it is not an email.
Borup: Do you have any projections on the (inaudible--) interchange? Eagle had
several -
Nilsson: That came up in the 2015 plan and I think they called for urban interchange, I
think, between Eagle and Fairview (inaudible--).
Borup: That probably would have been the Fairview to Eagle and Franklin?
Nilsson: I don't know. I don't have it - I am trying to think. I can't imagine ACHD
(inaudible) that interchange. I think the first interchange is going to be Highway 16 and
Highway 44 (inaudible--). What did you say?
Sullivan: Yeah, the first arterial interchange would probably be out there. For one, our
funding, we really are in a crisis if we don't get something turned around in the near
future. I think that transportation form is going on to some public workshops and I don't
know the dates on that, but it's on our website and so for one, there would be no money
in the next 20 years anywhere to build those interchanges.
Borup: (Inaudible--) could probably preserve the right-of-way.
Sullivan: Yeah, and that is - part of the thing is we need to preserve that right-of-way.
It is a discussion that we have talked about a number of times and we need to probably
sit down and workshop it out. It takes up - you talk about access management, you put
on there at Fairview and Eagle, your touchdown point is going to be way, way back, so
that you will have obstruct all the access into that commercial area for quite a ways.
Borup: I thought that would modify the interchange plan (inaudible). I mean, the first -
at the one corner the buildings were set back to allow for that interchange and I thought
that that other corner to the west didn't allow (inaudible) but they said it did. We should
have two more corners there.
Sullivan: I have always asked for a copy of that. I have always asked for a copy of that.
I have never seen that interchange design and I have asked a number of times. I think
they get that from (inaudible).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
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Siddoway: (Inaudible) are at the family center down Crossroads did setback-
(Inaudible discussion)
Siddoway: -- because it was off the table when (inaudible).
Sullivan: So, there is a couple of issues. One is the setback for a building like a lot of
people are talking about Chinden and Eagle and okay there might be room there, the
target is way over there, but when you imagine the gray that you have to get up to and
how far back - I mean, the next time you drive and think I would have to drive up and
over that traffic signal, you know and it goes out so far and then you have to have the
access control back from that. It is a major impact to that commercial corner. So, why
you might not take a building, you might have a takings because it impacts the property
so much. I am not saying it's not doable or it is not something we should consider as
things redeveloped, but I think it is a little bit more challenging than just calling it an
urban interchange like it is a little (inaudible) and just plop it in there.
Siddoway: Okay, at our last Communities in Motion meeting last Friday, they did
identify the top ten heaviest and highest volumes of intersections and weren't they going
to study those further in terms of treatments?
Sullivan: We have in the program $200,000 next year to do what we call a high volume
intersection study. I put that in there when I had the opportunity because I got sick and
tired of going to the state and local meetings with ACHD and ITD and have spent a lot
of time on how do we fix Eagle City Market at Chinden and Eagle Road? The
fundamental problem is that that property was never subdivided correctly. It was
nobody's fault. You could trace it all the way back, but there wasn't adequate frontage
in a major intersection to provide access into and out of that property. It is not really the
developers fault, I mean I am not going to pin blame. It just wasn't really thought ahead
of time how that intersection needed to function and then the land use be designed
appropriately for that. So, you have access points into that market. It is not so much
the agency time; it is also one of the highest accident rates. It is a poster child for
access and measure and why that is a good thing. So, we put money in there so it is a
study, but it is actually going to hopefully compliment efforts that ACHD has done, look
at the high volume intersections, but don't identify the ones that where you are fixing.
Where can we get ahead of it, where things really haven't been platted there and get a
concept design done, so that the developers and jurisdictions know really how to
subdivide that corner and how to maybe do a small little circulation plan for that
because the delay in the system and there is so much delay at this intersection and if
you can help keeping traffic moving through the intersections, you have got a much
greater benefit system wide. So, that is what that is about. We also, through their
update of the Capital Improvements program, ACHD has really looked and analyzed, I
think all or 100 more intersections. We are not going to (inaudible) or use that, but take
it to that next level of what does that picture - what does that have to be in the future?
That will be an effort that will look at what is called the functional area of the intersection
in terms of the volume and speed and really what are the critical points? Typically
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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longer area -- on the main road shorter, where you should not allow any access - that is
really what that is. We will see how many we can actually get done with the money and
I am not sure if any of these are tacked to really help identify those candidates for that -
it would be consulted time, basically right?
Borup: (Inaudible --). We had the first people (inaudible--) studying. I brought that up
on one of the hearings a year or so ago and no one even had a copy of it. They weren't
even aware of it.
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: I drew it, you know, Linder because Linder is shown as an interchange on the
Communities in Motion map and I was okay what do we do now that it is coming up?
So, I kind of drew out a really, really rough area that if you had what would be a type
diamond interchange and the kind of area that that would take. I have that drawing for
Linder, but -
Borup: For where?
Sullivan: Linder and Chinden, but one of the things-
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: -- I haven't.
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: But, then there is also if you don't have it - if the route itself is not managed
and then you have this nice interchange there, you would invest quite a bit of money on
this interchange, but the rest around is entirely congested, it is - I don't know they kind
of have to go together. It has to be system (inaudible) within a spot. It is a conversation
that we need to have and make sure as we redevelop that we don't lose those
opportunities.
Borup: You know Franklin still has two intersections undeveloped yet, but that sounds
like (inaudible--) and Fairview still has possibly two on the board.
Sullivan: It probably needs buying the property because there is nothing to build it. It is
not like they could (inaudible).
Borup: Well, (inaudible) either way. I mean, if we can preserve it and (inaudible--).
Canning: Do the frontage or back-age roads alleviate the need for the urban
interchanges? That is what I heard recently.
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March 30, 2006
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Sullivan: They help because they keep the short trips on that road. I mean, it just helps
the volumes on the highway itself. So, it alleviates people at those points and I made a
comment in one that you will see soon, where the collector road could be better and if it
was it might be better in the future. As we talked about with Steve before Sunday with
the volumes that are out there maybe the left turning movement would be restricted and
there would be no left outs and that way you get more green time for the thru movement
and then what happens when you shut off that left out, you know where those people
are going to use this little parallel collector and if it winds through a neighborhood
(inaudible), so that is why those parallel collectors are important, but then you do get
into the discussion we had earlier about the impacts of that on the development and I
know you guys have sort of moved to - you are really strong where it is commercial and
then it lightens up a little bit when you get into residential.
Siddoway: Whereas residential we haven't required parallel collectors, we do intend to
require connectivity (inaudible) allowing the front of the house -
Canning: Not on the arterials, on the interior section.
Zaremba: I would ask kind of a sideways question. There have been several times
already (inaudible), we essentially know what the right thing to do is, but we don't have
the money to do it and therefore, it probably is never going to happen because it will
never be cheaper than it is now, of course. Is there anyway for ITD at least in an area
that is growing as fast as Meridian is, to have an (inaudible) fee like ACHD does?
Sullivan: Yeah, it is being talked about right now. They think it will probably take two
years, maybe three by the time they would be able to pull a package together and get it
to the legislature. So, I don't know. They are talking about it. I am not really in that mix
that would be directly privy to that information, but I think it is something that needs to
happen. It is a little harder. We can't really use ACHD's structure, our roads are so
regional and that is a little bit of the argument that we get into with the developers all the
time is the background traffic. This isn't my development, this is the background tracks.
It is coming from Mountain Home. It is coming from whole other towns. So, I don't
know, but I think it needs to be worked on and I think there will be other proposals too
like gas tax (inaudible--).
Borup: That is where it should be coming from (inaudible--). We are way behind other
states (inaudible).
Nilsson: I think the meeting this week with ACHD (inaudible) because I had to say it
more bluntly than her district engineer would. There isn't any state money for roads. It
is all going pretty much into maintenance of the existing system. So, if ACHD wants to
partner with ITD on some signal projects, there isn't a state money to partner. It would
have to all be federal money that would take three to four years (inaudible). I think
ACHD has finally - I don't know - it finally is sinking in that there is no state money. It is
a great idea; we have done it in the past. There is no state money.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
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Sullivan: Not only is there no state money, there is not a lot of federal money either.
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: Our state legislature wants the federal government out of our hair. They want
the federal government telling the states (inaudible--).
Siddoway: There are a lot of discussions going on for local opt in taxes, more in regard
for ways to fund transit than for road, but there are many discussions ongoing for the
low dollars to the (inaudible--).
Borup: It would have to be voted on, right?
Siddoway: Yeah, it would have to be voted on.
(Inaudible discussion)
Siddoway: It would give us the authority to at least ask our citizens.
Zaremba: Let the locals decide if they want to pay for the improvements.
Canning: I have no idea where we are on the agenda. I think we are-
Zaremba: I think we are ending six and about to talk about seven.
Nilsson: I have a husband and a child to pick up at the airport, so I have to leave.
Siddoway: I imagine you would want to hear about (inaudible) and some other things
from Sue.
Item 6:
Discussion with Sue Sullivan from ITD about the status of SH-16
alignment / studies and Highway 20/26 right-of-way preservation,
potential design and timing for road widening through Meridian:
Item 7:
Update on ITD projects in the Meridian area, including the SH-16
alignment study by Sue Sullivan:
Sullivan: Okay, Highway 16, it looks like they did leave a little money in Highway 16
because of the GARVEE and I don't know that it will all be settled until that fat lady
sings as the saying is, but there is enough to get that study rolling and if not a complete
NEPA document, pretty close to it. So, I anticipate and everything I say right now is - I
don't know it is in this -
Siddoway: Contingent on the GARVEE being finalized.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Sullivan: Yeah. I think that there is a good chance that the study will start by fall,
maybe sooner. I think as soon as the dollars are settled it will start going. District
Three has asked to have some property owner meetings because we need to start
letting people know what is happening. It has been a little hard because we don't know
what is happening. I think we at least need to go out there and say here are some
things we know, here is what we don't know and here is when we will know it and give
them at least a rough idea of what they are looking at. So, right now if this NEPA
document was completed in five years, you would have a corridor defined.
(Speaker unknown): It takes five years for a --?
Sullivan: Well, we are actually much faster than the national average here in Idaho-
Rohm: At what?
Sullivan: -- at getting it through the environmental process. I would say it would be a
three year process anyway. But, I don't know. There has been talk about using
streamlining, they always throw that word around like it is - I think people working
harder or faster.
Borup: That stuff is going from where? From 84 to --?
Sullivan: All the way up north to Emmett.
Borup: That is what the study will --?
Sullivan: Yeah, but I think we look at it in the two segments. They are pretty different.
So, north to 44 or even north to really to Eagle, the urban segment and then the rural
segment is there.
Canning: So, it would be three years for the southern portion?
Sullivan: Yeah, I think they - I mean there will be stages to this where maybe you will
start getting a pretty good idea of where it is going to go, but to get through the whole
EIS, you have to go through the process.
Canning: I just worry because I think sewer is going to be available probably around
that time and we can only hold them off for a while.
Borup: (Inaudible--) big part of the discussion, you know back was McDermott and
Highway 16 and why do we need a one mile corridor? (Inaudible).
Sullivan: I think we could and this is just my opinion -
(Inaudible discussion)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
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Zaremba: Well and Steve may have given you some of this background, but when the
last North Meridian Comprehensive (inaudible) change came before the city, before the
Commission to make our recommendation to City Council, it had a very strong element
of corridor preservation, not essentially along with McDermott, but understanding that
we don't know exactly where it is originally written to preserve like a half mile on either
side of McDermott. It was a very emotional public hearing. The (inaudible) of it was
and what I think the Commission recommended to the City Council is that we very
quickly get together, property owners and ITD and us and get their input in a
cooperative discussion about where do we want to steer where this corridor should be,
so that we aren't taking a whole mile wide swap and making everybody on pins and
needles until we hit the helmet on sensitivity. But, I think the homeowners and I
expected that activity to be starting about now and in the study process, stage three, the
first public discussions should be happening pretty soon.
Siddoway: That was on 20-26, though.
Zaremba: Well, it was on the intersection of 20-26, but the discussion was McDermott.
Borup: The discussion based on the stakeholders - well, most of them have been
waiting for three to five years just on if they are acceptable, when it seems logical that it
should be just right down McDermott anyway. (Inaudible--) you can plan for the
(inaudible) or whatever needs to be and design around it.
Zaremba: The difficulty I have had is the way that we forward it. In order not to hold the
whole Comprehensive Plan changed up, the Commission recommended taking that
section out and the difficulty is that we need to be doing something. It is like I was
saying, we would be hearing the curb on Eagle and maybe in the right place or slightly
behind on 20-26, and we need to be way ahead on 16.
Sullivan: Yeah, I agree with you.
Zaremba: And that stakeholders meeting needs to be happening about now and
(inaudible) six months ago that we were (inaudible) public hearings.
Canning: Well, the Council just adopted it last month and it took us a while to get
through the past plan.
Zaremba: Well and with all the studying and it is my feeling that we need to be at study
stage three, but first public meeting involving us and you and (inaudible--).
Sullivan: I agree with you. Part of my challenge has been that the project hasn't been
funded and so that has been a part of the problem and then the managing of it is being
done by somebody else, a consultant program manager, not that this is a problem, but
they haven't been in the mix yet. They haven't been on contract yet and so there have
been three big projects -
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Zaremba: I am not talking about actually accomplishing it yet, but - could Meridian set
up the meeting and then invite you to it? That is still (inaudible) to lTD.
Sullivan: Well, I have agreed with you and I have suggested a number of times that I
felt like there was a problem because the only place that people were getting their
information were at your meetings and I didn't think that that was right. But, it is one of
those things where -
Canning: We have a little time, I mean, the City Council has (inaudible--) or anywhere
close to there. So, people aren't coming in beating down the doors, the developer right
along.
Zaremba: Certainly they could be anticipating what the likelihood is.
Canning: Exactly. I mean, we do have a little time and also the UDC does treat
McDermott like a state highway, so that is helpful also and gives us a little time. Not a
whole lot of time, but a it gives us a little bit of time.
Zaremba: Well, and the time it takes to go through the process, you know-
Canning: I had asked Council if they wanted us to initiate that discussion and they said
no you should participate in the ITD discussions.
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: They should be coming up more.
Siddoway: Even if we do our own meetings, it doesn't necessarily stick and then for ITD
until they go through their NEPA process. They cannot determine the alignment on the
front end of their environmental study.
Zaremba: Well, we could things that would make one alignment more attractive. I
mean, we already know it is too late for Ten Mile, it is pretty much too late for Black Cat,
it is going to be somewhere around McDermott and by our land use decisions we can
steer it into this being obvious.
Sullivan: You certainly can steer it. I mean, it will narrow the range of alternatives if you
steer it a certain way. I have looked at it myself to try and - if I was in charge, we would
have already - I am not saying that I have any brilliant ideas, but because I am there in
the trenches I see this as we really need to get in there and identify. First do an
environmental screening so when I had my half-time staff person, she went out and
identified all the historical sites out there, which is one of our big issues because you
have to avoid them, if you possibly can. So, you kind of get these dots and then
historical and 50 years is historical.
Borup: Oh, really?
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March 30, 2006
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Zaremba: Just because it is old, not because it is on the national register.
Sullivan: Well and there is more to it than that, but that is the threshold to start looking
at and then I took all the residences and kind of highlighted all of those and when you
do that you can see a little bit of you know, the corridor starts to - probably not going to
go right here because you can just look at all the dots and all the houses you take out
and that is what I think could happen early is a more refined - I mean it is similar to
what we do when we sit down and drag out our maps and we just put the dots there - a
very more refined version of looking at what the constraints are. I almost thought it
would go west of McDermott, looking at that - that was at a very cursory glance
because there is more development on the east side.
Borup: That is through Meridian? From the freeway to Chinden?
Sullivan. Yeah and there is advantages to not building it right down McDermott, so that
will be something that will have to be weighed too to be offsetting it from McDermott, so
that maybe these houses that there on McDermott could be salvaged if McDermott
operates as a frontage road and it goes, you know, back behind it.
Borup: (Inaudible--) if they are sitting on an 88 acre piece of property, they are
(inaudible-- ).
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: Well, I think we need to have something, but we just really haven't had the
resources to start doing that process and now one of your planners is on the GARVEE
team and I am sure we will jump right in on that.
Zaremba: We could hope.
Canning: (Inaudible--) for those of you that haven't met Matt. This is our new lone
ranger Comprehensive Plan associate and his name is Matt Ellsworth and he has been
working how long now?
Ellsworth: (Inaudible--).
Canning: He and Steve have just been cranking out (inaudible--) and they will share
with you all those things. You will notice that Josh and Joe are not here. Josh took a
position with the City of Boise with the Design Review and will start April 21 st and Joe
took a position with CH2M Hill and on the GARVEE stuff and he will (inaudible) until
April 28th or something like that. We have got another position funded and another
Associate City Planner position so right now I have three openings.
Rohm: I don't remember them asking permission.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Zaremba: So, Caleb is doing all of the -
Canning: Bless his heart, Caleb has not quit this week.
Zaremba: We appreciate you.
Canning: You will see light agendas in May. You will have to make up for it in June.
June may be horrific for you all, but we are just going to have to make them light in May
so that we can through it. We are going to strategize on Monday on how we get
through May.
Zaremba: It may not be my place to offer, but we do want to start looking at a third
meeting in June.
Canning: It is probably - now would be the time because we may get some - Comp
Plan amendments are due in June and we may get some huge applications, fathom
ably huge.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: So, a third meeting in June would be very wise. If you wanted to try and start
scheduling it now that would be good. Actually, the Comp Plan amendments - the stuff
that is (inaudible--) to you in August.
Newton-Huckabay: So, I guess I missed that. Josh and Joe are both gone?
Canning: In April.
Hood: They are going to stay on through April (inaudible--) San Antonio at the
(inaudible) conference, so luckily Anna will also be at that meeting and both Josh and
Joe at least plan to be here through that.
Canning: They are physically in the office.
Zaremba: But short timers.
Canning: They are at least physically in the office for a while.
Zaremba: Giving all the developers everything they want.
Canning: We had some really good phone interviews with some master's candidates
that are looking to move to the area. So, that is exciting, none of them had any
experience, so it could be training talent.
(Inaudible discussion)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Zaremba: Well, you can mold them they way you want.
Rohm: I guess Caleb could just work 24 -7.
Canning: Caleb was wishing he got paid overtime at this point.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I talked to Diane about helping out in May, so we may see her at some point.
Zaremba: Kushlan?
Canning: Yeah. We will make it through. Somehow it will all work and somehow we
will maintain our sanity.
Newton-Huckabay: And maybe this isn't a very politically correct question to ask, but
why are people leaving? I mean, more people have left -
Canning: I would like to think it is not because they hate me and I am a horrible boss.
No, it is pay. Both of them are leaving for - they are both getting about a 30 percent
increase in pay.
Zaremba: Sue it looks like you both are preparing to leave right now. Have we asked
all of the Highway 16 questions we were going to ask?
Sullivan: I think you can expect to see something coming out pretty shortly here.
Zaremba: Well, I just got the feeling that the people that live along McDermott are
looking for a meeting very soon. Even if it is totally (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Sullivan: Yeah, they are draft. I am kind of - we do have the draft talking points and we
will finish them, wrap them up and getting the mailing list together for all the owners
there. That is in progress now, you know, pulling together everybody that lives in that
swab and start pulling a meeting together. We will have one meeting for you know 1-84
to 44 and then one Ada, Gem Counties and that will be our first step. Then CH2M Hill, I
believe is going to be the lead on Highway 16 piece of the GARVEE (inaudible) and
they are going to act like another district. I mean, they will have that level of (inaudible)
I don't know to use the word authority (inaudible). It will be like district and will have that
same decision making structure. It won't be (inaudible). Thank you.
Newton-Huckabay: I didn't get my question answered.
Zaremba: I am sorry I didn't mean to cut you off, but I didn't want to lose Sue.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: We are looking into it.
Rohm: Yeah, the question being where are we going to get the money to have two
people on board (inaudible--)?
Newton-Huckabay: That is pretty critical, in my opinion it is pretty critical that the city
has lost as many people in Planning and Zoning in the three years that I have been on
the Commission -
Rohm: Maybe that is the key.
Borup: We were doing good until you came, Wendy.
Canning: We are the first two that we really have lost due to money. The other ones
were not necessarily about the money, but these two definitely were and to have both of
them go at the same time and leaving for such huge increases - it is kind of like the
price of land. The price of planners went way up and they aren't confined right now.
They are hard to find and so people are upping their wages.
Zaremba: Well the other difficulty that we have is that I know there is so much pressure
on you, on Caleb and Steve and the whole staff, everybody that is here or isn't here and
again, I have mentioned this, but I relate to the one staff report from Boise that I read a
year or so ago that had ten people work on it and each different person took one
paragraph and that was their responsibility. If we expect our people to know the whole
Comprehensive Plan, the whole ordinance and be able to, you know, solve all the
ACHD (inaudible) and solve all of the problems by one person with the developer and
that plus not paying them quite enough is quite a burden. I mean, it would be attractive
to me to move to Boise for the same thing.
Canning: Yeah, right. They are going to more pay and easier workload.
Zaremba: We appreciate those that are loyal, but sometimes we have to pay them.
Canning: And I did get another position funded, just for that reason. I said listen, you
know, we can't cut it. We have got more applications coming through and we do have
the applications that are done in the entire county, the half of the plat lots come through
us and I have got a fraction of staff that we normally - you have Ada County, Garden
City, Kuna, Boise, Star and there is 6,000 lots and 3,000 of them are (inaudible).
Newton-Huckabay: I guess for me that it indicates to me that is crisis mode and the
quality of work then, which is going to generate over time and I think that - I just want to
be certain that the City Council and the Mayor feel that way as well. I mean, that is
putting more burden on people like me, who I am not an expert and never claimed to be
an expert and what it is you guys are educated to do and you know I view it more as a
gate keeper role and I don't like the idea of you know - Caleb has had four hours of
sleep in a week and he is writing staff reports and that is my -
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: We will figure it out to make sure that we make it through some how. We
may just cut way back on the agendas. The Mayor understands that we will be in crisis
mode and she will support us. She told me to go ahead and hire subcontract help.
Diane is perfect. She has got a huge background. She knows how to do this stuff and
she knows our code. She said she should start - so either she said she could help after
the first week in May, so there is an opportunity there. We will figure it out.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I know and I have to warn Council next week that they will probably start
getting a few phone calls, but you know people will just have to be patient for a month or
so.
Hood: That is what I am finding already is that I just am not going to be able to sit down
with people that are concerned because I don't have time to sit down for an hour and
talk with every neighbor. I don't. Before I could talk with them on the phone and now I
am not going to even be able to answer the phone. I am just going to be writing and
trying to do the coordination, but I am going to apologize right now for any things that I
may miss and I am still going to try and keep the quality high, but I have got to kick them
out quicker.
Canning: If you see things that just don't make sense, like something happened. Let us
know because something probably did happen.
Zaremba: I have a suggestion. Instead of writing and long thorough staff report just
one page with big letters on it, either yes or no. I am sorry, you lose. Hearing is closed.
(Inaudible discussion)
Newton-Huckabay: BSU and whatnot, they don't actually have a degree? I mean, do
they -
Canning: They have a certification program, but they are working on a BSU program
and the enhancement that I am going to put in for this year is for an intern position for
one of those BSU students just to help half time and that will be a big help, but I will feel
better (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: They are working on a certificate program right now, but they want to delve
into a master's degree.
Newton-Huckabay: So you are going to have interns then over the summer?
Canning: I am going to see if I have enough costs salary savings from these lost
positions, usually there is some costs savings there. If I have got enough for an intern
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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this summer, I will get one; otherwise I am going to ask in the enhancement. But, we
were without Brad for a long time and it is taking us a while to fill this new position. So,
there is some costs salary savings -
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: Actually, we have pretty on track on overtime so far. I budget for overtime
and I think there has been (inaudible--).
Borup: I don't want to speak for staff, but I don't think most people don't mind overtime
so much if you get paid for it. If you are not getting paid for it -
Canning: Well, unfortunately Matt is the only one that gets overtime.
Mae: That is why he has got the smile.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: The issue was raised as a - the Human Resources Director asked me about
that (inaudible-).
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I think Caleb took it better than I did last weekend.
Rohm: Mr. Siddoway, you are on.
Item 8:
Update "Studies that are in the Process" by Steve Siddoway and
Matt Ellsworth:
Siddoway: The Comprehensive Planning site is busy as well. In addition to the
transportation elements which kind of flavor - or tonight with ITD have many things
going with ACHD plus a number of studies going on from south Meridian to Ten Mile
interchange to many others. I have asked Matt and he is going to get his first chance to
speak to the Commission tonight and he has put together some elements to go along
with you and we will just open the discussion.
Ellsworth: Thanks, Steve. Several of the things that we have tried to get the ball rolling
on since I came on board - the first one I am sure you are very familiar with is the South
Meridian Area Plan, of course the three-way partnership between the two cities and the
(inaudible) the county fell through. The direction that we are going to take that in as of
now is we proceeded with consultant services to go forward with the first public meeting
here in two weeks. It is scheduled for Wednesday, April 1 ih at 6:00 down at
(inaudible). So, we are set to send the mailings out on that and we are finalizing
everything as we speak. The basic substance of that meeting is going to come down to
identity issues from the residents, find out who they identify with most between the two
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
Page 43 of 60
cities or (inaudible--) assuming they are going to (inaudible) the idea of staying within a
county for the time being. Based on the (inaudible) on that, we are going to turn that
over to use as one of the factors to consider and where - as much as they throw out the
term, where the lines will be drawn or what makes sense to them to plan the growth for
it.
Borup: (Inaudible) the county is not one of the options that they are going to have to
choose.
Ellsworth: It is an option I think we are going to open up to them for this initial meeting
here.
Borup: Why are you giving them that choice? I mean, eventually they are going to
have to go one way or the other -
(Speaker unknown): You are talking about the hearing in Kuna?
Ellsworth: Yes.
Canning: And there is some possibility of some - if the county were to have a
transferred development rights, would that be an appropriate so that there was some
break in between the two cities. That is kind of the idea. If the folks there are thinking
about that then that may be the way to go. I think a lot of folks, people actually will - I
think they are looking at - the developers are knocking on their door (inaudible--).
Borup: That is why I wondered. If they do have that area (inaudible--) and services-
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: If there was some TOR, yeah.
Ellsworth: One city to the other and then (inaudible) we are just trying to keep it open to
any possibility -
Borup: Well, that could work, but then you stick to it. Twenty years from now when all
the people that didn't want anybody around or gone -
Canning: That is why I said you would have to have a TDR program because that is a
permanent transfer. That land stays that way after that.
Zaremba: The two things that come to mind. One is kind of where the zip code outline
is and the Post Office is the final answer, but to assume that they related to what their
zip code is (inaudible--).
Canning: Yeah, it goes almost-
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
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(Tape turned over)
Canning: Yeah, part of the area that naturally assumed to be Meridian, actually have
that Nampa address.
Zaremba: Well, just to give a little discussion on preserving open space in between -
many years ago I lived in Camarillo, California just in Ventura County between Los
Angeles and Santa Monica, the three major cities Camarillo that I lived in and Oxnard
and Ventura all got together and along with the landowners and everything, all agreed
that they would establish a line between them and then two miles either side of that
would be what they called the greenbelt, which means something different here. But,
that would be a green area that would not be developed and the landowners and
everybody agreed to it. It worked great and everyone was happy with it and
development started to happen. The difficulty was most of the land was either lemons
or tomatoes or something like that, farming and the same things that are going on here.
There is a critical mass in which there were so few acres in lemons that the lemon co-op
went out of business. Then they had their truck (inaudible--) and the tomato co-op went
out of business, so they had their truck open San Bernardino or something (inaudible).
It would be the same thing as (inaudible) if you would get below critical mass in sugar
beets and the plant in Nampa has to close and then truck them to Twin Falls. So, then
the difficulty was it was in the rules that they couldn't develop it, no longer was farmable
and the (inaudible) which is my little word, they eventually just rescinded the rules and
said develop it. I don't know how you would say (inaudible).
Siddoway: One of the things that is pushing the urgency on this particular plan is that
Kuna has a very large annexation in front of their Planning and Zoning Commission this
week and it goes all the way up to Lake Hazel. There is a lot of concern, false
information, rumors, etc., going on about what can and can't be done out of that area by
Meridian or Kuna in terms of service ability and other things. So, we are working very
hard right now to get this public meeting together in the next two weeks to try and
answer some of those questions and deal with some of those identity issues for the
residents that live down there.
Ellsworth: So, that is work in progress, like I said scheduled for April 1 ih and I am just
trying to get the word out right now, so we will keep you posted as the rest of those
details come together. Moving along here, another plan are in some of the works. We
haven't released the RFP for this. It is one hanging out there and this is for the Ten Mile
interchange and I know Trish and Sue briefly hit on it, but one of the major aims for this
one was to sort of learn from the mistakes of the past or at least some of the problems
that have emerged in the past. This one is going to take a very, very close look at land
use and transportation issues and factor in the idea of the interchange and ultimate goal
is to hold onto that corridor and make sure that is able to function and the way that it is
intended to and make sure that the folks that live in that area and the folks that already
own land in that area and just make sure that everybody is on the same page from day
one. I had another conversation today with representatives and I (inaudible)
landowners in that area just to run the RFP by hand just to make sure that we haven't
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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missed anything (inaudible). So, we have had several of those conversations so far and
everybody thinks it is going in a good direction. So, we are set to release that probably
early to mid-next week if I have to guess. We will try and get those mailings out.
Siddoway: The Ten Mile Interchange Specific Area Plan. Our vision of it has four major
components, land use, plan, transportation plan, a market research analysis and some
design guidelines. One the land use side, if you look at the Comprehensive Plan today,
much of the land around it is just that mixed use regional designation, which is
intentionally very flexible, but we feel like we need some better definition on what we
expect to have there and how it transitions from the existing adjacent uses and so land
use, looking at a finer grain of land uses that a big blob of mixed use regional that
means anything could happen will be a major part of it. Hand to hand with that is the
transportation plan as we saw on that one interchange that was well planned that came
down away from the interchange and had the parallel collector system and local roads
off of that. We want to do that planning up front. We know the interchange is coming.
If we can plan the collector road system now then we can get ahead of the development
planning and set some of those elements and restrict the access particularly between
the freeway and Franklin and (inaudible) on Ten Mile to - I was thinking one, maybe
two, I don't know, but restrict the access in some fashion -
(Inaudible discussion)
Siddoway: Yeah. So, we need to look at the access management along Ten Mile. We
need to figure out how that, at least down the collector road system level in that area
and then how that interfaces with the land uses that we are proposing. As we
determine what land use it should be, we need the market analysis and then we want
some basic design guidelines to go with that. It won't be as elaborate as what we are
trying to do downtown, but still some design guidelines to try and raise the quality of
development as the Mayor is very much working toward right now. We are ready to go
out with that RFP within a week.
Ellsworth: The next one down is the industrial land study and that is one that actually
the direct mailings went out on that yesterday and that is actually probably going to feed
in to an extent into the Ten Mile. What we are looking to do with the industrial land
study is take at look at the existing industrial land now. Some are of a broader market
analysis that determine (inaudible) in the area for more - with what we already have,
engage how appropriate it is and where the appropriate areas might be for
consideration - things of that nature. The end result of this is going to be, at least as I
see right now, a pretty strong economic development tool and something that we can go
over with Cheryl and she will be able to work with the folks that are looking to expand
and other things and they also wind up having sometimes without uses along the rail
corridor and things of that nature - what are the best uses for that now and 30 years out
and those are also some questions that we are looking into with that study.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30. 2006
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Siddoway: There is a concern to me that I may not have enough industrial land - the
question is do we need more or not? The stuff that we have is it in the right place or
not?
Canning: Do we need some under different ownership for the (inaudible)?
Borup: Yeah, that came out on the Eagle and Pine project.
Canning: Right. Exactly. That is when we started putting this in -
Borup: That did seem like a good place for the industrial.
Canning: Although Van Auker called me two months after that was approved and said
say can we put an industrial use in there? So, it is one of those things that you don't
have to believe every line that those developer reps tell you because it is - the two hits I
have on that property since the commercial designation -
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: (Inaudible--)
Canning: I have heard various rumors. One I have heard that they are trying to sell it in
total. I heard that maybe some of the other developers buying a portion of it.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I have a feeling you will get to see it again.
Zaremba: Well, my comment would be to take a look at the area around the
wastewater treatment plant because we keep denying almost everything that comes
there and it would be a good industrial area.
Canning: And this are certainly allowed there.
Siddoway: Yeah, those uses are allowed there and mixed use (inaudible)-
Canning: Right now the access isn't very enticing, but Highway 16 -
Borup: But we can't (inaudible--) that doesn't apply (inaudible--).
Canning: The last one we did. It was years ago - it was four or five years ago that we
turned (inaudible--).
Borup: We didn't. City Council did. The Bus Barn and Sanitary Services.
Zaremba: I wasn't in favor of (inaudible). I am much happier where they are now.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30. 2006
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Borup: Oh, yes. Some of it was a good area, just not right at that corner.
Canning: Just kind of a market analysis more than anything else.
Newton-Huckabay: Well, just food for thought we don't need anymore 30,000 square
foot or (inaudible) office space out there. How big is that building?
Canning: Jabil?
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah, Jabil. The office is just 30,000 square feet.
Canning: 200,000 or 250,000 or something like that.
Mae: I think that would be a good place for the city, City Hall.
Zaremba: Yeah, except they want to be downtown.
Moe: Well, extend downtown.
Newton-Huckabay: I think that would be a good place for a business (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion)
Mae: What is in that building is (inaudible).
Canning: (Inaudible--) industrial. It is relatively-
Moe: I was very surprised and we heard, you know, with the Vacation easements and
everything else on that property because they were going to go forward and they were
also going to go - they were discussing a (inaudible) be put up on a shelf right now and
that all kind of fell out.
Canning: I suspect RSCI just didn't have the financial wherewithal to (inaudible).
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: That was my question, why didn't the city decide to do this two years ago before
he bought it and then (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Borup: There was discussion two years ago about doing it then. It was oh, let's wait
and think about it.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: No, they had (inaudible) actively pursuing another site for two years and
(inaudible) came up. So, that is why. The Shell Station is going forward. They have
been talking about plans and -
(Inaudible discussion)
Moe: Is the city going to provide (inaudible) - no parking there?
Canning: No, what they did is they did an "L" shape right along the corner with the
building and then they are talking about parking back in behind it underneath.
(Inaudible discussion)
Moe: I guess that would probably be my biggest complaint is if these developments
come, we went through the process and one of the biggest headaches and the whole
discussion that we had was where was everybody going to park and whatnot and well
they could park in the city lot there and gee it is beautiful. Now that we want to do it, it
goes forward and there is a redesign and we don't have a clue what has been done.
Canning: Well, that is because it is (inaudible).
Moe: Okay, thank you.
Siddoway: Okay, do you want to hear about districting?
Ellsworth: Okay, districting, the suggestion of the Mayor from what I am told a couple of
years ago - anyway the notion that was put out (inaudible) looking into a medical district
of sorts would make some sense. That sort of inspired some staff level research and
what other communities have done for districts. Medical districts in particular, we
weren't able to track anything down. What we are in the process of doing now is
basically brainstorming to determine appropriate scope of work for somebody to get into
this process to determine what is there, what do these folks need, what incoming
businesses or perspective incoming businesses looking for in the area and how can we
get them there? And other questions, just a few (inaudible) of that nature are coming up
as well. At the moment we are sort of, like I said, we just have our feelers out right now.
We are doing research. We are speaking to people in the area. I think a lot of this
probably will come from stakeholder meetings with folks over in that area to determine
what they are looking for before they actually formally go through and write a scope.
That is another one that has had (inaudible--) all the tie ends to it. That is confused as a
marketing tool to bring in appropriate businesses, cross them together -
Borup: Is a non-medical area?
Ellsworth: It would be a district over on the eastern part of town.
Borup: Around St. Luke's?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: No. (Inaudible).
Siddoway: Well, it would include area of (inaudible--).
Canning: Yeah, but it would mostly be focused -
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: I think this one we may end up doing a lot of it in house, but maybe pardon
the economic development portion out since we don't really have that in house
expertise, but we may be (inaudible--).
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: That is the only one we can find right now. The Mayor's idea is we have got
all these mixed use, large sections of mixed use regional and her concern is that they
are going to start competing with one another and she doesn't want that to happen. We
have got one over on Eagle that is firmly established at this (inaudible). You know, light
industrial and she doesn't want that same thing cropping up along Pine and Eagle to
compete with that one, so (inaudible) trying to find some special (inaudible) for that.
Would like to try and find, not specialty, but emphasis maybe for Ten Mile.
Zaremba: -- that do want to cluster together.
Canning: Yeah, try and get some cluster so that rather than competing districts, get
some complimentary districts.
Borup: Isn't Ten Mile far enough away from Eagle (inaudible)?
Canning: I would suspect that Ten Mile will go much more retail and more industrial
only because (inaudible--).
Siddoway: Plus you use McDermott more industrial (inaudible--) Ten Mile more retail
and (inaudible--).
Newton-Huckabay: Well, what does industry in this country in the next decades look
like? I mean, it is not going to look like industry does today.
Canning: There are a number of -
Zaremba: It is all outsourced to India.
Newton-Huckabay: That is what -
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: There is a number of building industries located in urbanizing areas that need
some place to (inaudible). Those that are kind of the Old Town area. (Inaudible--).
Newton-Huckabay: So it is construction related?
Canning: Yeah, I think a lot of them will be construction (inaudible). They are looking
for some place to expand, some place to - they want to stay in Meridian and they
(inaudible--) and they can't afford the prices so they don't know what to do.
Borup: (Inaudible--).
Canning: Yeah and they - I had the most bizarre meeting with one of them. I mean, he
came in and he was just pleading with me. He said you are driving me out and I have
no where to go. Please find some way that I can stay here. That is all he really came to
say and you know it was a very uncomfortable meeting.
Borup: He wanted some industrial land?
Canning: Yeah.
Siddoway: There is a bigger question as to whether we are really situated in a place
that isn't suitable for those industrial land because they really do need to be lower cost
and our position in the Valley being so central drives our land prices up to the point that
industrial uses really are pushed out in favor because as the land prices increase,
industrial uses relocate and retail and other uses take their places.
Borup: The city could do something about zoning and land use designation (inaudible).
Siddoway: That is right and that is why you need the market research to back it
because we need to find out if we do go ahead and zone it, is it an exercise of utility
because of the land crisis alone? That is an answer I don't have right now, but
something to -
Canning: Well, we could put it in the designing (inaudible) between Kuna and Meridian
just be an industrial swap.
Ellsworth: The last one on the list here that we (inaudible). This is a partnership
(inaudible) at this point. This is a parks and pathways plan with us and obviously Parks
and Rec. The driving force behind this is if you look at the future land use map right
now, it sits fairly (inaudible) to the location of the trails and in addition we are not even
100 percent sure where all the trails have been built, where they exist, what shape they
are in or anything else. So, the (inaudible) components about this one first and
foremost is a GPS inventory of what is there, what connections are needed. From that
(inaudible--) different programs, come up with a capital improvement plan of some sort,
priority list, what would make sense to start spending money on and going to funding for
it. And (inaudible) adjusted opportunities, so at this point Doug and I have been
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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bouncing an RFQ back and forth and we are just - we are gathering some input on that.
Doug, I think, is looking to pull the trigger on that somewhat sooner rather than later. I
could see that going out in the next couple of weeks here, but right now we are still
finalizing exactly what we are looking for and then on the tail end of it is going to be an
updated (inaudible) public plan like all those other elements, GIS component and it is
definitely going to be in there so that we can integrate into the other things that the city
has been using and actually have some direction as to where to go from here.
Siddoway: If you (inaudible) pathway existing Comp Plan, they follow the existing
creeks and canals and things, but they cross the road wherever the creek crosses the
road and that is not where people are likely to go and be able to cross the roads. Same
with the railroads and same with the Interstate. There just really needs to be a closer
look at that pathway system in terms of the actual pedestrian movement. What side of
the creek is it on? We need to really look at the constraints that are out there and
determine if a certain location is just impassable making - so we need to make sure our
(inaudible ).
Newton-Huckabay: Yet, well pretty soon we will all start driving our little boat peds to
get some where because you can't get through the intersection.
(Inaudible discussion)
Zaremba: The only thing that I would add to the list and (inaudible) is just signage, so
that, you know, if you are near a path, but you can't see it and there are some places
where there are signs, a couple of dedicated memorial pathway or something
(inaudible). There are a lot of places there may be a pathway and nobody knows
(inaudible ).
Siddoway: Because there has not been a long enough section to provide connectivity
and do our signing, but you are right it is an issue to be thought in terms of the whole
system at some time.
Canning: Then related to that Matt and I have been going to - well it started off with
Brad, it's transitioned - but, the Idaho Power has been working on the electrical plan for
the county at full build out, so they assume complete total build out on the whole area
and what electrical facilities they need and then last Friday we sat down and figured out
where all the corridors would be and apparently no one had done this to date, but our
table. But, almost everything we (inaudible) along the rail corridor because that way
Idaho Power (inaudible) next to the railroad corridor it has to (inaudible) a little bit bigger
than they would next to the roads because tracks attract the electrical energy there. So,
they have to have a little bit (inaudible) finer corridor, but it also gives us the
opportunities for a bike path fairly near that rail corridor where you know the (inaudible)
and they make wonderful (inaudible) and we cannot afford to buy it, but we could
probably afford to build the power lines. So, that was (inaudible--).
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30. 2006
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Ellsworth: Believe me I had an (inaudible) all over that meeting. So, that is really
interesting (inaudible).
Borup: Doesn't make sense.
Canning: Actually, I think our plan, you know it is hard to read them because they have
got to make everybody feel like they are having valuable input and stuff, but they kept
on looking at like this one works. Look at this we only need four substations here or hub
substations and they were kind of - I don't know I just got the feeling that it was worth it
the way that it is.
Siddoway: So, these (inaudible-) the 800 pound planning drill is that are coming on
line right now. There are many other efforts. Also ongoing we have got the DNC
design guidelines underway. As I mentioned earlier we were wrapping up the
Communities in Motion process regionally and it will be an opportunity for the
Commission to have a meeting of your own on the drafted plan, if you so choose.
There are lots of transportation projects. (Inaudible) we have our Franklin Road
meeting coming up we are closing on and we are coordinating with ACHD on it. Split
corridor is moving up the full year from when we even got adopted in January. The
design RFP went out last month and proposals just came in and today actually they
were due. We go into consultant selection next week and go into designer phase one
and start looking at partnerships for phase two and keep that going.
Newton-Huckabay: Can I ask a question on that because we were just talking about
that today. But if Meridian Road and Main Street on phase two go into three lanes, right
in the final?
Siddoway: Main Street, north of the tracks does not - north of the tracks for the
moment - Main Street does not change. It is just like it is today. Meridian Road is five
lanes.
Newton-Huckabay: Oh, it will go to five lanes. Oh, okay.
Siddoway: Yes. South of the tracks there is the transition area and it changes from that
configuration to a three lane (inaudible) couplet.
Newton-Huckabay: I couldn't remember.
Siddoway: Any other questions on the appropriates of planning?
Borup: (Inaudible).
Siddoway: They are looking into the CIP as the potential widening for-
Borup: That has a right-of-way (inaudible)?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Siddoway: It is like a four and one half. During the first round of the draft CIP -
Borup: (Inaudible--) the way (inaudible) curb and gutter now.
Siddoway: They handed it in as three and that was one of the things that I questioned.
I said don't we need to look at this starting to move further north and they do - they
have identified Meridian Road north of Cherry as a 4/5 roadway. It is not the (inaudible)
to work program. It is something that they are looking at, including their CIP. We are
supporting a lot of private, public partnerships and get things built ahead of schedule.
We have more needs than there is money.
Borup: Isn't that how Eagle and Ustick got help?
Siddoway: That is how Eagle and Ustick got help. It did, it worked out great and we are
working on partnerships to get Pine Street extended from Eagle to Locust Grove. We
are working on partnerships for North Meridian -
Borup: (Inaudible--).
Siddoway: In North Meridian we have schools coming on line as you know and in the
next several years we have got middle school in 2007 and a high school in 2008 and we
are going to get the partnerships through the school district and with the developers in
that area to fund some of these intersection signalizations that need to happen up there.
Borup: Is there a signal in the (inaudible) on Ustick and (inaudible)?
Siddoway: Yes. Ustick and Linder are first-
Borup: -- and Linder is first?
Siddoway: Linder is first. They just had the public information meeting on it two weeks
ago and did submit comments on that one asking to add some (inaudible) lanes and
different things. Ustick and Meridian wasn't even on the radar in the first draft of the
(inaudible) work that came out with the comments that we submitted and changes that
have been made. We did get it in there. I think it is in one of the out years by 2010, but
they got design work program early for it so that if something else slips, it is something
(inaudible-- ).
Borup: (Inaudible---) so it must be worth something.
Siddoway: Linder has the most of the attention because of Sawtooth.
Newton-Huckabay: Well and it is -
(Inaudible discussion)
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Siddoway: They are - traffic number wise they are very close. Ustick and Meridian is
slightly higher in terms of the traffic counts that has to go through it (inaudible). Ustick
and Meridian is higher, but because of the kids walking to school and the issues with
going through that intersection that one is going just ahead of the other.
Newton-Huckabay: Well, don't they have to - they (inaudible) safety bus, like 300 or
400 kids (inaudible). My son gets bussed to school and we live less than a quarter mile.
In fact, we are maybe two football fields.
Borup: Are you crossing the section on your own?
Newton-Huckabay: Well, they would have to go out to - if he ever walks home from
school, he has to go out to Linder, but we lived on Tumble Creek and he has to go out
to Linder and down Linder to the school.
Siddoway: Across Ustick.
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah, you have to go across Ustick.
Siddoway: And those (inaudible) they are trying to sell.
Zaremba: And no sidewalks?
Newton-Huckabay: No, sidewalks. There is no water ditch outside the bike lane. But,
yes, there is like 275 kids in our subdivision and all of them bus to Sawtooth because
(inaudible-- ).
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: The last item on the agenda, if we are ready for that is - this is very short.
Item 9:
Discussion about a possible consent agenda for the Commission
hearings:
Canning: You may remember you reviewed some changes to the resolution for hearing
procedures, gosh it was a while ago and I gave those to the City Attorneys and the
Mayor and Council decided at that time that all they really wanted to do was kind of
shorten up some of the stuff on the final plats and miscellaneous applications and they
could do that without swearing in folks. So, that is all they did. They didn't have to
change the resolutions to do those. Now they are wanting to see an abbreviated
hearing agenda and that was a big part of that. We looked at the resolution and you all
wanted an abbreviated hearing agenda as well. Basically, it would say is anybody here
for this application, you know, raise your hand and testify and if not are you in
agreement with the conditions of approval and -
Borup: (Inaudible) still do that?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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Canning: Boise City does it.
Zaremba: ACHD has a huge consent agenda and you have to ask to get something off
of it if you want to talk about it.
Canning: Yeah and at that time, Council was concerned that since they weren't really
having a full hearing they wanted to make sure you all were having a full hearing. So, it
was written to only allow the Council to have the abbreviated hearing agenda. Since
that time, given your agendas they have said let's make it so they can do one as well,
especially for the commercial projects.
Borup: Well, yeah, some nights there is no public testimony at all on half of the
projects.
Canning: Yeah. So, that opportunity may be coming your way. Our attorneys, I think,
are - you know they are good about not complaining about how swamped they are, but
I think they are just swamped lately and I will try and get that going for you all. A lot of
times you don't have the opportunity to put many things on there because we have had
people discussing everything lately. But, we are mindful of how horrendous your
agendas are lately and we are trying to do something about it.
Borup: So, staff would put items that we would anticipate that they would have no
opposition or --?
Canning: What it would be is - well, the way Boise City does it - that was the only way
I was familiar with at the time the staff just kind of tells you all these may be candidates
for the abbreviated hearing agenda and so then you would, before you adopt your
agenda you would say we have a potential of putting a number of items on the
abbreviated hearing -
Borup: (Inaudible--).
Canning: Same thing. I have (inaudible) that at Boise City.
Siddoway: So, you would just be saying these are the projects that the applicant is in
agreement with staff conditions of approval and unless there is someone there to testify
Canning: Yeah and to our knowledge there is no other opposition and you would say is
there anybody wanting to speak on this item and if not, then -
Moe: You would just make a motion to put on the consent agenda at that point?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 3D, 2006
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Canning: Well, we are not going to call it consent. It is an abbreviated hearing agenda
because you use the consent agenda for your other things, for your minutes and things
like that.
Borup: Well, (inaudible--) you would think that the applicant would have a strong desire
(inaudible) and I assume (inaudible--), right?
Canning: Yeah.
Moe: We spend way too many hearings of late that there are no issues, that the
applicant wants to get up there and sell (inaudible) and I want to say excuse me, I really
don't care. You know, I am not going to buy one of your homes or whatever. New
project, staff loved it and I am ready to say go for it because we are on a time clock and
it is only 1 :30 now and we have two more to go.
Canning: Exactly.
Rohm: Yeah, that is when I get the elbow, move along Mike.
Borup: So, how soon could we do that?
Canning: I keep on-
Borup: Is that a new ordinance?
Canning: I thought the resolution was all written and then Ted was reviewing it-
Borup: Somebody could come and photocopy it for us?
Canning: Ted was reviewing it and that is when he figured out I had accidentally
disbanded you all and that was the last time anybody that I know of looking at it.
Sharon, did you know that I completely disbanded the Commissioners?
Newton-Huckabay: And we all came back. Well, I have to say this in all fairness a lot of
times we shoot ourselves in the foot.
Zaremba: Why are you looking directly at me?
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah, I just have eight more questions for you. I have these
sixteen notes I have made.
Moe: I would make an observation here. You know in listening to everything tonight it
is very good to see that we can also have a very positive attitude when there is so much
crap on top of us right now. I mean, I didn't hear anything - I mean lots of positives, but
quite frankly it is real depressing when you start thinking well, she is losing staff and you
know they don't have any money and we don't have any money and I don't know how
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
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we are going to do all this stuff because there is no money, but we have got to do
something about it. Yeah, it is pretty depressing when you start to think about it that
way.
Canning: Somehow it all gets done. I mean the good part about losing the staff - well
there is really no good part about it - but, I think that it will help me get some initial
funds so I don't lose more people.
Moe: At least now I know why Josh was at Boise City in the middle of the day one day I
was there.
Canning: That is funny.
Moe: The look he gave me was oh. Now it all comes together.
Canning: It's okay. I think that the candidates that we have will be phenomenal once
we get them up and trained.
Newton-Huckabay: Now is there is a philosophy for choosing people have no
experience rather than trying to recruit from --?
Canning: Departments, I can't complete locally-
Siddoway: We have been making phone calls.
Canning: Yeah, we have tried. There is really not-
Newton-Huckabay: I am sure there is people like in Orange County that are planners
that - I mean, everybody else from there is moving here. Do they do target markets
with that?
Borup: Put it out on a national website.
Canning: Yeah, the last two times we have sent it out on a national website. It is an
email that everybody gets.
(Inaudible discussion)
Canning: You know that is the problem with that -
Ellsworth: (Inaudible--).
Canning: Part of it is my educational standards are little higher than some of the other
ones around so my job qualifications are a little higher and I don't pay as well, so I end
up getting people I need to train. It's okay, you know I don't mind, but-
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
Page 58 of 60
Moe: But it doesn't help when Meridian is one of the fastest growing cities in Idaho and
it is well known all over the country that way and so they are going a planner for
Meridian, fastest growing oh my God that is a lot of work, maybe that is not where I
want to go.
Siddoway: Fastest growing also brings opportunities.
Canning: That is right. Well, yeah, and the two telephone interview candidates that we
were interested in are like well you know what is the opportunity to move up (inaudible)?
You know, I have got a guy that started a year and one half ago and is the manager
now. If you stay here for a while, there is great potential.
Newton-Huckabay: Just wondering that maybe there is opportunities for more admin
type help that would take that burden?
Canning: That is what the internship position should help a little bit.
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah and take the phone calls-
Borup: (Inaudible--).
Canning: You know when I first got here hardly any and now much more. It has
increased tremendously in the last three years.
Borup: (Inaudible) manage that and do you still do that half day thing where one person
is on (inaudible)?
Canning: Well, Kristy and Sonya for the most part take the walk-in ones, unless it is
projected related and then one of the guys will take it if it is one of their projects. Even
Matt has been helping out.
Borup: So that (inaudible--) take everyone that walks in?
Canning: We take everybody that walks in.
Borup: I mean, a couple of years ago you had, you know, the afternoon was-
Siddoway: Yeah, we used to go in shifts.
Borup: -- yeah, are you still doing that?
Siddoway: No, with the restructuring that we did, we got Sonya and Kristy right at the
front counter so that they can handle most of the walk in traffic themselves as they
come in.
Newton-Huckabay: We need to close the public meeting because -
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
Page 59 of 60
Borup: (Inaudible--).
Siddoway: Well, we have more projects, so it is still-
(Inaudible discussion)
Rohm: We will get it on the record that we have three meetings -
Canning: You need to close it.
Borup: Is this still being recorded?
Canning: Yeah.
Rohm: Do we need to have on record that we would like to have three meetings in
June?
Newton-Huckabay: I think we already did.
Canning: I guess you could make a motion just in case (inaudible--). I don't think you
need one, but you could take a vote if you want?
Rohm: No, just on record that we will have three meetings in the month of June. Okay,
good enough.
Borup: The date to be determined later?
Rohm: Well, it would be the fifth Thursday.
Borup: That is what I was wondering. Right now I have got something scheduled for
the end of June, but that is okay.
Rohm: With that being said, would you like to make motion?
Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair, I recommend we close the Meridian Planning and Zoning
Special Meeting and adjourn the Special Meeting.
Borup: Second.
Rohm: It has been moved and seconded to close the Special Meeting of the Planning
and Zoning. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same sign.
ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission Special Meeting
March 30, 2006
Page 60
G ADJOURNED AT 9:45 P.M.
E ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
~I 0 \ I OLP
DATE APPROVED