2021-06-22 Work Session Minutes Item#1.
Meridian City Council Work Session June 22, 2021.
A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 4:39 p.m., Tuesday, June
22, 2021, by Mayor Robert Simison.
Members Present: Robert Simison, Luke Cavener, Treg Bernt, Jessica Perreault, Liz
Strader and Brad Hoaglun.
Members Absent: Joe Borton.
Also present: Adrienne Weatherly, Cameron Arial, Warren Stewart, Emily Kane, Brandon
Frasier Jamie Leslie, Joe Bongiorno and Dean Willis.
ROLL-CALL ATTENDANCE
Liz Strader Joe Borton
_X_ Brad Hoaglun _X_Treg Bernt
X Jessica Perreault _X Luke Cavener (a:as p.m.)
_X_ Mayor Robert E. Simison
Simison: Council, we will call the meeting to order. For the record it is June 22nd, 2021 ,
at 4:39 p.m. We will begin this afternoon's Council work session with roll call attendance.
ADOPTION OF AGENDA
Simison: Next item is adoption of the agenda.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: It's my pleasure to make a motion to adopt the agenda a published.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as published. Is there any
discussion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The ayes have it.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. TWO ABSENT.
CONSENT AGENDA [Action Item]
1. Approve Minutes of the June 8, 2021 City Council Work Session
2. Approve Minutes of the June 15, 2021 City Council Special Meeting
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3. Dovetail Subdivision Sanitary Sewer and Water Main Easement No. 1
4. Hill's Century Farm North No. 1 Full Release of Sanitary Sewer and
Water Main Easement
5. Hill's Century Farm North No. 1 Sanitary Sewer and Water Main
Easement No. 1
6. Utility Easement for Pressure Reducing Valve
7. Final Plat for Aegean Estates No. 3 (FP-2021-0031) by Engineering
Solutions, LLP, Located at 4306 N. McDermott Rd.
8. Final Plat for Oaks North Subdivision No. 10 (FP-2021-0035) by Toll
Southwest, LLC, Generally Located at 6180 W. McMillan Rd.
9. Approval of Award of Bid and Construction Contract Between City of
Meridian and Treasure Valley Drilling, LLC for Well 9B Construction for
the Not-to-Exceed Amount of $454,051.00 and Authorize Procurement
Manager to Sign Purchase Order for the Not-to-Exceed Amount of
$454,051.00
Simison: I didn't know if we were adopting the agenda or -- yeah. Next item is our
Consent Agenda.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we adopt the agenda as published, for the Mayor to sign and for the
Clerk to attest.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. Is there any
discussion on the motion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed nay. The
ayes have it. The Consent Agenda is adopted.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. TWO ABSENT.
ITEMS MOVED FROM THE CONSENT AGENDA [Action Item]
Simison: There were no items moved from the Consent Agenda.
DEPARTMENT / COMMISSION REPORTS [Action Item]
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10. Community Development: Fiscal Year 2021 Budget Amendment in the
Amount of$35,963.00 for Reclass of Administrative Assistant to
Economic Development Business Liaison
Simison: So, we will move onto Item 10, which is Department/Commission Reports and
first up is our Community Development fiscal year 2021 budget amendment in the amount
of 35,963 dollars. I will turn this over to Mr. Arial.
Arial: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, really excited to be with you right now,
particularly with this budget amendment in front of you for your consideration. This
represents a big step forward in our economic development program and we are excited
for what this means and the service that we can bring now to support our -- our business
community. So, with that, just to be brief, this 36,000, roughly, represents the money
necessary to elevate our currently approved admin position that is vacant, into a -- reclass
it into an economic business liaison position. So, really, the purpose is to start to advance
some of our Comprehensive Plan, strategic plan, economic development plan initiatives
around supporting our small businesses at a higher level and we are -- we are really
excited about adding these services and as you all know, it's been a trying time for our
economic development division, a division of one, Tori, especially through COVID and
some of those things. But, again, just coming out on top and kept swinging and really
moving our -- the economy of our city forward and this is just a great advancement
towards our goals in this direction. So, with that I will stand for any questions, Mr. Mayor
and Council, and look forward to your thoughts and discussion.
Simison: Thank you, Cameron. Council, any questions?
Bernt: Much needed.
Simison: With that do I have a motion?
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we adopt -- or approve Item 10, fiscal year 2021 budget amendment
in the amount of 35,963 dollars for reclass of administrative assistant to economic
development business liaison.
Perreault: Second.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve the budget amendment. Is there any
discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll.
Roll call: Borton, absent; Cavener, absent; Bernt, yea; Perreault, yea; Hoaglun, yea;
Strader, yea.
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Simison: All ayes. Motion carried and the item is agreed to. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. TWO ABSENT.
11. Police Department: Fiscal Year 2021 Budget Amendment in the
Amount of $4000.00 for Dairy Days Parade Traffic Control
Simison: Next up is Item 11, which is the Police Department Fiscal Year 2021 Budget
Amendment in the amount of 4,000 dollars for Dairy Days. Turn this over to Mr. Leslie.
Leslie: I think so.
Simison: Okay.
Leslie: This is what was in front of us a couple of weeks ago when the Dairy Board came
in and discussed the issues we were having with traffic control and -- and the additional
resources that they are utilizing, instead of volunteers. So, this is to amend our current
budget of 5,000 to 9,000. So, we are asking for 4,000 so we can be able to handle the
parade and move forward.
Simison: Thank you. Council, any questions?
Bernt: I don't think now would be the appropriate time to say no.
Simison: Okay. Then, with that, do I have a motion?
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I move approval of the police department's fiscal year 2021 budget amendment
in the amount of 4,000 dollars for Dairy Days parade traffic control.
Strader: Second.
Simison: I have a motion and a second to approve the budget amendment. Is there any
discussion? If not, Clerk will call the roll.
Roll call: Borton, absent; Cavener, absent; Bernt, yea; Perreault, yea; Hoaglun, yea;
Strader, yea.
Simison: All ayes. Motion carried and the amendment is agreed to.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. TWO ABSENT.
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12. Police Department Report: Proposed Off-Highway Vehicle Ordinance
Simison: Our next item up is a police department report regarding proposed off highway
vehicle ordinance. Let's turn this over to Officer Frasier.
Frasier: Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, Council Members. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be
here this afternoon to further the discussion of the ATV, UTV ordinance the Transportation
Commission has been working on now for the better part of a year. When I first brought
this issue to the Transportation Commission we were in a little bit different landscape
statutorily. There has been some development in this area in the last legislative session
at the Idaho State House, but, really, the same question remains and that is what, if
anything, is the city going to do differently to address these vehicles on a roadway. The
police department sees an uptick in the number of golf carts, ATVs, and UTVs operated
upon the roadway. Sometimes this is in blatant violation of the law. Vehicles driven by
juveniles that don't have a driver's license, things of that nature. And prior to the last
legislative session there were some real gray areas of the law also and our officers had
to really take a lot of time to educate the public on those matters. With respect to golf
carts we have a city ordinance that prohibits them anywhere except for the Lakeview golf
course area and we do see a huge uptick in residents in many other subdivisions -- some
of those even that have golf courses now -- riding their golf carts within their subdivision,
thinking that they are in compliance with the law or I have been told that the golf cart
salesman said that it was legal to operate on the roadway, so it must be. So, it was a
time to look at that golf cart ordinance to see if it still reflects the stance of our city as a
whole and, then, try to address some of the safety issues and other legal issues that we
saw with regard to ATV and UTV operation. Prior to the last legislative session state law
already prohibited the usage of ATVs and UTVs on most roads in Meridian. It left open
the usage of ATVs and UTVs on local roads and in the last legislative session House Bill
129 changed that. When that statute is effective ATVs would be allowed on all roadways
within Idaho, unless a local authority makes an ordinance or some type of ruling
otherwise. So, that's the second part of this question is what do we want to do with ATVs
and UTVs and what do we want to do with golf carts as a whole as they pertain to quality
of life and safety issues within the community. The police department does get complaints
from citizens who see ATVs or UTVs or golf carts on the roadway. They call us, because
they don't want to see them. They don't think they are legal. We also have a fair number
of people who want to be able to operate ATVs and UTVs the same as they would a motor
vehicle. We have people who try very hard to come in compliance with every area of the
law that they can think of. I have talked to folks that have put DOT certified tires on their
UTVs and horns and turn signals and mirrors and all sorts of stuff in a good faith effort to
be as legal as they can be on the street and, then, of course, we also talk to people that
are scofflaws, essentially, and don't make any attempt to be in compliance with the law.
So, it is kind of a big question. When I brought this before the Transportation Commission
I was seeking clarity for the police department on what the city wanted to do reference
these issues, so that we can tell our officers how we can educate the public on the matter
and take enforcement action when necessary. I know Ms. Kane is here. She may have
just some discussion for the legal aspect and I will stand for any questions if you have
any right now before she speaks, if she is going to.
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Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: Officer Frasier, just -- just so that we can provide clarity to those who might be
watching and paying attention, can you define the difference between an arterial collector
or a local road?
Frasier: So, those designations are officially made by the Ada County Highway District.
The easiest way to think about it is a local road is a street that goes from a house or a
driveway to a bigger more major road, like a collector street. So, if you are talking about
a subdivision, the road that feeds into the subdivision that all the main traffic turns into
generally would be a collector street. The street that feeds that street would be an arterial
or major street, like a Linder, Chinden, Ten Mile -- Chinden is a bad example, because it's
a state highway. But you get my point. The local road, essentially, goes off of the arterial
street to houses. If you are operating only on -- upon a local roadway you are essentially
by default going to stay within the subdivision. We are talking about roads that go to golf
cart-- golf courses, other houses, community pools, clubhouses and things of that nature.
You would reasonably be unable in almost every case to get out of the subdivision to
travel upon a bigger roadway.
Bernt: Perfect.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I was thinking along the same lines as -- as Council President Bernt as to
whether or not the public would understand the difference and do we clarify that in the
ordinance. Do we have some definitions for what highway means? When I first read this
it was a little confusing, because, of course, when you say highway you think Interstate;
right? Not local roads. So, wondering if -- if -- from a textual standpoint if we can make
some more clarification in that ordinance for that. And, then, also is there an element of
the vehicle needing to be able to meet the speed limit. So, you know, assuming a golf
cart is not going to be able to get up to a certain mile per hour and from a safety standpoint
do we differentiate say a UTV and RTV, which is, you know, significantly faster from a golf
cart, do we make that kind of separation in the type of vehicle in this or is the -- is the
anticipation of the Transportation Committee to lump them all into one and, essentially,
make the same ordinance for every type of vehicle?
Frasier: I think the Transportation Commission tried to move as efficiently as possible
and perhaps there is room for a little bit more clarity on the differences between local,
collector, and arterial streets. I know Ms. Kane and I talked about that. We talked about
it at a subcommittee level. When you start trying to explain that it almost becomes more
complicating than leaving it as is. It's a very difficult thing to describe, other than to refer
to Ada County Highway District's master list where you can easily tell what street is a
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local, arterial, or collector roadway. I think from an enforcement standpoint we are not
going to get deep in the weeds over a citizen's misunderstanding of local versus arterial.
If a police officer would have a hard time differentiating, we would certainly expect a
community member would be, but as I said earlier, the easiest way to think about it is stay
in your subdivision and you are almost always going to be fine. The golf carts speed limit
issue, perhaps there is room for discussion there. Golf carts generally don't travel any
faster than 15 miles an hour. UTV and ATV obviously they can go a lot faster. However,
the speed limit on every local road that I can think of is 25. Fifteen miles an hour in the
case of a golf cart doesn't really create a safety hazard there, as it would on a street
where the speed limit is 35 or higher. I think out of the spirit of moving efficiently, the
Transportation Commission opted to repeal and replace the existing golf cart ordinance
and loop ATVs and UTVs in as an effort for clarity even though it does leave a couple
things potentially not so clear.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Can you help us understand the -- the fine amount and how that came to be.
The 25 dollar fine. What -- what was it prior to this and is that sufficiently -- I mean I
personally, you know, wouldn't think that would be that prohibitive for people. I would
think a higher fine would and -- then, of course, obviously, the police department's great
about giving warnings if it's clear the person -- that the individual did not understand that
there was an ordinance. But the second time around I would think that a fine higher than
that would -- would make a lot more sense. I'm not sure if there was a specific reason
that that fine amount was chosen.
Frasier: I would agree that's a fairly low fine, 25 dollars. I'm not sure where that number
came from. It may have just been a holdover from the fine of the current golf cart
ordinance. But I know there was an effort on behalf of the Transportation Commission,
after hearing public input, they didn't want to take actions that would be construed as
overly punitive or money making in this endeavor to regulate ATVs or UTVs. I'm also of
similar mindset. A higher fine may be in order in a situation where a citation would be
warranted. Across the board when we look at similar violations in city ordinance, the fine
amounts are not overly high. Parking comes to mind. Texting and driving was a little bit
different thing when that ordinance was in play. But it also kind of is in line with the fee
schedule for other things at a city ordinance.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Thanks, Officer Frasier. I will just be really open. I -- I watched the
Transportation Commission meetings. I have read all the materials. I'm really struggling
on this concept. I'm not convinced there is a huge problem and I'm also concerned that
the problem statement that underlies the need for this ordinance is shifting around a little
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bit. In some of the Transportation Commission meetings it was said that Commissioner
Smith said that these vehicles are inherently unsafe and that the real issue is people are
not following the existing laws, which to me sort of begged the question. Are we not
enforcing existing laws and do we have some data behind the number of crashes in
Meridian involving UTVs and golf carts that would sort of justify the need for this
ordinance.
Frasier: Thank you. I do remember that comment in that meeting. One could make an
argument that perhaps an ATV or UTV is unsafe. Is it any more unsafe than any other
roadworthy vehicle? That's certainly worth discussion and in some cases they are, some
cases they are not. We don't -- the -- the purpose that was issued to the Transportation
Commission by the police department was at the time, prior to the passage of House Bill
129, the state statute in effect at that time was very difficult to explain to people to make
them understand that their actions were unlawful under state code. Really, it took an
experienced officer who had to compile multiple pieces of state statute to explain why that
activity was not legal and oftentimes people thought it was legal. We didn't issue a lot of
citations for that, because it was an educational piece. There is a lot of people who
genuinely didn't know it was illegal at the time. With regard to crashes, we don't have a
statistical bombshell, if you will, to indicate that we have all these crashes involving ATVs
and UTVs. My standpoint was at the time and has been since then that it's more of a
quality of life issue regarding people in subdivisions calling and saying my neighbor is
riding their UTV up and down the street. I don't like it. Do something about it. At the time
there were times when the activity was unlawful, there was times when it wasn't, but
having that discussion and having a clear and concise ordinance or direction from the city
to point our citizens to and our law enforcement officers, it was difficult to have those
discussions. That changed with the passage of HB 129. We are in a different place now.
I think the -- what's left is for the city to come to a consensus about how we want to treat
these vehicles and make changes to our existing golf cart ordinance.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Yeah, I appreciate what you are saying about, you know, there was a change in
state law and so that -- that also to me sort of begged the question of, you know, are -- I
don't want to simplify it by saying are we a solution looking for a problem, but it occurred
to me that, you know, if under state law it's legal to have these vehicles and specific to
Meridian we make it illegal on certain roadways to have these vehicles operating, it just
seems like it's creating a little bit of a quagmire, instead of maybe advocating for a solution
at the state level. So, I -- I get what you are saying. I guess I'm concerned about
legislating about quality of life issues when, in my opinion, just as a layman, when we
have motorcycles -- and I think there was a gentleman that testified about this, you know,
you can have a Harley going by at any time that's quite loud and so why are we picking
on certain vehicles and not others. So, I don't know, I'm just -- I know you are looking for
clarity from us, but I guess I'm struggling a little bit.
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Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Just to kind of follow up on that question, officer, can you explain the difference
between licensing a motorcycle versus licensing an ATV, UTV? Just leaving golf carts
out of it. Just so we understand what is required to drive one of those vehicles differently
on our roads.
Frasier: Sure. A motorcycle can be registered a couple of different ways, depending on
what type of equipment it has on it and the size of the motorcycle. Generally, you know,
if we think about Harley's versus an all out dirt bike, an all out dirt bike is not able to be
licensed for use upon a road like a Harley would be. However, you can get a restricted
use license plate for that dirt bike. That's the same license plate you could get for an ATV
or UTV and that is the license plate that falls into the category of off highway vehicle
usage, which brings us to this discussion. There are motorcycles out there that might
start out as a dirt bike, but you can make changes to them to make them roadworthy and,
then, you can get a red and white motorcycle license plate, just like you would for the
Harley and, then, you are good to go, same as a Harley. At the state level there is no
remedy to be able to buy a red and white license plate for your ATV or UTV and, hence,
the lack of clarity at the state level. So, even if you wanted to, the best you could do on
an ATV or UTV is to get a restricted use license plate that falls into the category we are
talking about and it doesn't openly -- or didn't openly allow you to drive that vehicle on the
roadway, the same as you would like a street motorcycle or the Harley.
Simison: Thank you. Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: Thank you. And I appreciate that. So, in -- in -- on that subject, if an ordinance
is not passed, if we choose to leave it as it is, how does the enforcement work on your
side if -- just by -- based on the licensing does it give it -- does it allow you to enforce
speed limits and -- you know, my-- my thought is -- and I see -- I am seeing more of these
vehicles on the road myself -- is that they tend to -- the same with dirt bikes, they tend to
cut around traffic, they drive on the shoulders, they go quickly in subdivisions where there
is children playing. There is a variety of behaviors that happen just because it's a smaller
size of vehicle and, then, we oftentimes have 16 -- you know, 15, 16 year olds that are
driving them. So, I think the type of vehicle does lend to a different driving style and
challenge than a regular car or truck would. What can you enforce if there isn't an
ordinance?
Frasier: So, any motor vehicle on the roadway, the driver of the motor vehicle has to have
a valid driver's license. The vehicle has to have some level of registration to operate upon
the roadway. A restricted use license plate under Idaho statute -- under the new house
bill does allow you to operate it upon the roadway and you have to have liability insurance.
If all those things are in place, then, it becomes the same as a car would. You have got
to follow the speed limit. You have to signal turns. You have to have -- the amount of
equipment you would have to have on it is open for discussion, but at a basic level you
need some type of way to signal your turns. You need a brake light. You need a mirror
and a horn. If you have all of those things you have to follow the rules of the road, the
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speed limits and all of those things. Essentially, we would be pulling over those vehicles
for violations -- the same violations we would be pulling over a car for and we do see
those -- we have seen those in history and we take enforcement action at that time. The
-- the overarching concept of clarity, since it's come up -- I'm not -- or I should say I will
freely admit that we received a bit of clarity since this endeavor began and the clarity that
I'm looking for is not necessarily advocating one way or the other what we do as a law
enforcement professional who oversees the traffic control -- or the traffic enforcement
team for the department, that clarity is telling my team this is what the city wants to do.
Whatever the answer is. And, then, we have that answer. I made it very clear to the
Transportation Commission I was advocating for an answer at the city level, not
necessarily going down one avenue or another. At that time the landscape was much
less clear, but that quest for an answer on the concept from the city is the same.
Simison: And I will give my unsolicited advice. Trying to educate the community about
all those requirements -- when someone sees a UTV going down the road, people are
going to say, well, I got one of those, I can go down the road, too. I mean that's -- that's
the reality of the situation. If we -- if we -- if we allow them to freely go on arterials and
that's -- that's my viewpoint. I think they are going to spend a lot more time trying to
educate a lot more people about all the reasons why they can't, as compared to the few
who might understand how they can. That's my two cents. Because I think those that
really want to do it will follow -- will do what they can to follow the law. There is going to
be everyone else who doesn't understand the law at all. They are not going to see the
license plate. They are not going to see a thing. They are just going to go hop on the
road and drive down the road, in my opinion. I think that's human nature.
Bernt: Mr. Major?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: So, I was down to the Capitol this last legislative session when they were
discussing this bill and the gentleman from Donnelly who proposed this legislation had
concerns about UTVs and such, you know, in their -- in their small towns up in the
mountains and I totally get that and I don't have any problems with the means in which
they -- you know, folks who are visiting and live there use UTVs, but I think the reason
why the state legislature -- the state legislature decided to give autonomy to locals was
because of this reason. I don't think it's appropriate personally to have ATVs or UTVs
driving down our roads -- our arterial or collector roads. In fact, I saw two weeks ago an
ATV -- a gentleman on an ATV that was on the intersection of Franklin and Locust Grove
and it just -- it just -- it just didn't seem right. You know, looking over and seeing this
gentleman with -- had no protection, no helmet, is revving up at that intersection right next
to the other cars and I don't mind that these UTVs or golf carts are used on local streets.
There is a lot of people in our neighborhood that do. I have never seen a problem and I
think that it's important to allow these types of uses, especially when there are golf
courses in the subdivisions and so I'm in support of-- of this --of this ordinance. We have
to do something, because right now I believe this law may go into effect July 1, if it wasn't
an emergency type order from the governor. I'm not sure if it's law currently, but if it's not
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it will be soon and it's an extreme safety hazard, in my opinion, to see these type of uses
on -- on our busy streets.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: Maybe just to give us something to chew on, maybe just a little bit of an opposing
opinion or different opinion. So, I would think as an owner of an ATV or UTV that safety
for yourself would already be a limiting factor of what roads you would go on; right? There
is a natural consequence for making a bad decision about it. People can make decisions,
like -- right? I mean I -- I could make a decision whether or not to go on a -- on a collector
road or an arterial road with a UTV pretty easily by the natural consequences that could
happen for me taking a vehicle that is inherently less safe on those roads. But I guess I
would just say how would you, you know, compare that to -- to a motorcycle -- and a
motorcyclist may not be wearing a helmet and we have bicyclists in the -- in the roadway
all the time that may or may not have a helmet. I guess I'm just concerned that it-- maybe
it's a comfort level with what we are used to seeing and I might go the other way of, okay,
state law takes effect and can we see the data and if we have a huge amount of crashes
or a huge amount of data that shows us we have a major problem that I -- then at that
point I would lean toward making a change personally. Anyway, that's enough for me.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Sergeant Frasier, I wanted to ask you -- you talked about operating these
vehicles within the confines of a subdivision and that -- and that makes sense to keep
them with -- within that area, but we are -- I struggle a little bit on that, because of the fact
that in our subdivision we have an east-west arterial and there is a street that connects
and it's a collector and, then, it goes out and around and connects to a north-south arterial.
Well, it's the spine for the subdivision and all these, you know, circular areas are in and
out, you know -- you know, a couple of entrances for fire protection, whatnot, but, you
know, if you -- if you want to go from this particular area to this particular area, you have
to go on that collector and so -- and I don't have an issue with them, because it is within
the confines of the -- it's 25 miles an hour. You see people are working on their stuff, they
go out and test drive it, go back, but if someone has a real issue with it -- if we say it's
prohibited on a collector street and there was a complaint and, then, you have to enforce
the law, so I'm like, hum, you know, how to -- but, yet, to do any sort of -- within the
subdivision going from their house to the pool, you know, the community pool there, they
are -- they are in violation that way. So, it's just trying to find that -- that -- that happy
medium, but -- because, you know, people will complain. Most people aren't going to
complain about it. Although Sunday we are out on the patio having a Father's Day dinner
with my folks and an ATV goes up the collector street going 25 miles hour, but they didn't
have much of a muffler on there, if any. I mean it interrupts your conversation and we are
a good distance away from that collector street. So, that's a -- that's a whole other issue
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with noise of some of these vehicles that we are seeing out on our streets. But that
collector street issue just gives me pause on certain areas. It's part of that subdivision to
away that there is no way to get around that, to go anyplace. So,just--just your thoughts
on how -- how do you handle enforcement with that.
Frasier: Sure. I totally understand that. I know the TC spent some time discussing --
discussing different options. Obviously, the easiest way to enforce that -- or the easiest
is to say you can't drive them anywhere. Absent that, anytime you start allowing
exceptions to that it becomes very difficult, because there is always something -- as you
said -- I understand that completely and there is certainly logic to that statement. You are
still in the subdivision, it's still a 25 mile an hour road and the person might not even know
it's a collector street anyway. I think in that situation enforcement -- or a police presence
in that situation has more to do with education and public service. We are not looking to
write a bunch of tickets for this, but it does help address some of the issues that you have
-- you have highlighted. The TC discussed having an exception to be able to operate a
ATV or UTV within a section mile, which would basically allow you to stay in the arterial
box of the subdivision that you live in, but even that was problematic, because what do
you tie that to? Do you tie it to the registered owner? Do you tie it to the driver? Do you
tie it to whatever house it originated from? So, there is always something. It's very difficult
to craft an ordinance that is perfect in every way when you are talking about restricting
the use of a vehicle like that.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: So, along those lines, did the Transportation Commission discuss limitation on
streets that had a speed limit -- so, could we say they are not permitted on streets that
are higher than a 25 an hour-- mile an hour speed limit, does that then -- now we are not
talking about definitions of collector and arterial, but we are addressing safety challenges
that might be created? Does that also come with an equal amount of difficulties with
exceptions?
Frasier: I would say that's a lot easier to explain to a citizen and to observe. That was
an idea I proposed at the TC. Didn't really go that direction, because it is very clear, if it's
25 and under you can operate on that road. If it's higher, then, you can't. The only other
thing that adds with is -- it would open up, you know, streets like Pine in the downtown
corridor would be open ATV, UTV usage. Some collector streets would be. Again, that's
not a decision I'm endeavoring to make as part of the overall mission for the city to decide
what, if anything, the police department --what type of action we should take about these
things.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
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Cavener: Good questions from my -- my colleagues and a lot of what was touched on by
the Transportation Commission. Sergeant Frasier, I'm sorry, I was delayed from your
presentation. I appreciate you being here and I'm sorry I only caught a portion of it, so if
you touched on this, again, my apologies. And I think Council the big question I think that
we need to ask ourselves -- and it's what I'm going to ask you, Sergeant Frasier, what is
the --what is the problem that we are trying to fix? I recognize we have got some logistical
issues as a result of the legislature, but is the intention of -- of this proposed ordinance to
solve a -- as Council Member Hoaglun pointed out -- a noise issue or is it really a public
safety issue and if it's a public safety issue, which is what I -- what I assume it is, I need
some greater clarification about how these UTVs and ATVs pose a greater public health
or safety threat than other motorized vehicles that are on our streets. So, can you help
me understand that? What's the problem? What's really the problem that we are trying
to solve and what do these pose that are different than other vehicles that are registered,
licensed and insured as well?
Frasier: And that's been a common -- common question or theme is what is the problem.
The problem is now two prong. One of them is we have an ordinance that prohibits the
usage of golf carts anywhere in the city, except for one square mile, essentially. We have
golf carts being driven all over the city. The problem there is what action would the city
like to take? Does the city want the police department to write all those people tickets
because they are in violation of that ordinance or do we want to change the ordinance as
it pertains to golf carts to some degree, because we have more than one golf course --
golf course in the city now and people driving those golf carts to community pools, which
weren't really a thing back in 1994 when this ordinance was first written. The problem as
it pertains to ATV and UTV usage, again, has changed since the passage of -- passage
of HB 129. Whereas before a police officer couldn't effectively explain to a person what
was legal and what was not and we had a conglomeration of quality of life issues
complaints on both sides of the fence. Citizens who demand we take action against ATV
and UTV riders for riding in their subdivision or riding down Eagle Road to get gas or
using it the same as a vehicle. We did not have a clear path forward in what the city's
expectations were. So, really, part of that is it was time for a revisit of this is what we are
seeing, this is what we have been doing, is that what we want to continue to do. If the
Council wishes to take no action on the ordinance that is the answer to my question. I
can't stress that enough. Because it answers the question for the police department. This
is what the city wants us to do about these issues we are seeing. With respect to public
safety, I think most people make the argument that an ATV or UTV would be less safe to
operate than a car or a pickup truck. As Council Woman Strader brought up, is it any less
safe than a motorcyclist without a helmet or a bicyclist? Yes or no. It depends on the
situation and you would be hard pressed to find a steadfast reason to take action on an
ordinance like this based solely on public safety. I can't point to a list of crashes and say
we have people dropping left and right from crashing these vehicles. If we are going off
public safety, then, we should probably adopt an ordinance that outlawed cars, because
those things are crashing all the time; right? So, it's the conglomeration of many things,
with the ultimate question posed to the Council of what do you want the police department
to do.
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Simison: And I don't know if this is you or Emily or -- or somebody else, but what about
-- if an accident does occur -- I mean these are unlicensed vehicles, not -- you know,
ATV. They are not -- they are not licensed, they are not registered. Do they carry
insurance?
Frasier: They can.
Simison: I mean that's -- is that -- are those requirements -- again, those are some of the
underlying things what -- what would occur in an accident from that standpoint. Even the
expectations if we do nothing. We say -- we have no -- no requirements, we just let
everyone go, accident occurs, what is the -- you know, if I get hit or I hit somebody, what's
the recourse? All the property insurance?
Frasier: We would treat that ATV or UTV in that hypothetical, the same as a car. You
have to have some level of registration. Under HB 129 a restricted use license plate
would allow you to operate in that situation. You would have to have liability insurance
and the operator would have to have a driver's license. So long as all that is -- is in effect
in a crash it's essentially no different than a car.
Simison: So, you can get -- you can get insurance through -- for that for roadways?
Frasier: Yeah.
Simison: Any -- any other way. I guess I go back to my question. I think -- I think --
people -- I don't think the public is going to know the difference. So, that's really what we
are coming -- if the people are not aware of how to make it legal and you get into an
accident, what -- what -- what, then, occurs? Is it just like an unlicensed driver situation
where it now falls upon me to deal with the ramifications of that because they didn't have
insurance?
Frasier: Yeah. Assuming the crash was deemed to be the fault of the ATV or UTV it
would be a civil issue. The person would get a ticket for not having insurance, then,
anything else would apply the same as a car. And in my experience it's a split bag. There
is a lot of folks out there, myself included, I have a UTV, it's got full insurance, it's
registered, I'm a licensed driver. There is just as many more people in my experience
that have none of those things, but they still expect the same level of legality simply by
getting a restricted use plate. So, you can't use a big brushstroke and label everybody
the same, because there is a lot of people out there doing all of those things in as much
as they can. They have turned their UTV into -- as close to a car as they can get it and,
then, there is people that make no attempt at all.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
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Perreault: Just -- I want to make sure I'm understanding for clarification. So, currently
the UTVs, ATVs are required to be licensed and carry insurance or they are not?
Frasier: They are not if they are not operated on a qualifying roadway.
Perreault: Okay.
Frasier: So, if you want to operate it on a street in your subdivision you would have to
have all those things. If you are riding it on private property or some locations of BLM
land, you know, forest service roads do require at least a restricted license plate. There
are some provisions there. But there are situations where it is legal to operate a UTV
without registration, insurance, or driver's license.
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I mean would an education campaign on existing law possibly solve some of the
problem; right? I mean if you want to operate your UTV or ATV in the roadway, it sounds
like you have to have a driver's license. The vehicle needs to be insured and you have
to follow the exact same laws as everybody else. So, I guess I'm just wondering if -- if an
education campaign, you know, on -- on that topic and enforcing existing law helps get
us part of the way there. And, then, I guess separately it does sound like we have to
make some sort of a change to our golf cart ordinance, just because we have golf carts
and it's not updated at all. I guess I'm just wondering if -- if enforcing existing law -- and
maybe the state law changing just makes it much more clear that these are -- these are
the guidelines. If a 16 year old crashes an unlicensed UTV that's in violation of the law;
right?
Frasier: Right. I think an educational campaign does get you part of the way there,
assuming the City Council as a whole decides no action is taken and they want to rely on
what is or will be state law under HB 129. It does leave the golf cart issue as you stated,
though.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I think one the things that I keep hearing all of
you that -- and I can understand this from a lay person's perspective, like my own, it's
really the public's understanding of what they can or cannot do. Now, would it make more
sense, Sergeant Frasier, to either -- prohibit them on an arterial, because that's clearly by
far the most dangerous place to have these types of vehicles or could be the most
dangerous for them, like a Fairview, Eagle Road, like that. So, arterial, state highways,
or on -- on any road that has more than two lanes of travel, because if you have -- you
know, then -- then I can understand that. If I'm a person, I read the ordinance and it says
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any road that's either -- if there is a -- if there is a delineation by speed limit, so if it -- if it
has a speed limit above 25, that is normally on a collector, not on a neighbor -- or local
street, or it has more than two lanes of travel, maybe excluding the turn lane, so you are
going to have some streets -- like I can think of -- like in Council Member Hoaglun's
subdivision area, they are pretty wide streets, they are not striped. So, there are really
only two lanes of travel like that. But that might be easier. Would that get the police a
comfort level, because, then, driving that -- like through Bridgetower, crossing that -- that
main roadway or driving on the edge of that main roadway to the pool isn't the problem
that you are trying to address anyway, it's the more -- if they were to get on Ten Mile or
they are going out on Linder or something like that where there is a lot more traffic and a
lot more higher speed, would that maybe get closer to addressing the issue from the
police perspective?
Frasier: There is a lot of things that are within the comfort level of the police department.
Really a lot of them have been talked about that that is an option. That comes with some
technicalities, you know, can -- if you can only operate it on roads with no more than two
lanes, well, can you cross a road that has more than two lanes on it to get to another road
and -- and those things. That was not the option the TC moved forward on. I really can't
speak any further than that. Wouldn't want to over -- over speak for the Transportation
Commission, but, really, you know, what I'm hearing is differing testimony from the Council
Members, those who don't want ATVs and UTVs on arterials and collectors and those
that don't see a problem with it, that is the ultimate question and it's not for me to decide.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Question. I don't know if this is for you, Bill, or for Emily. About -- I do want to
be consistent, make it easy for everyone involved, and so to go back to that 25 mile an
hour speed zone, 25 mile an hour or below, is that something from a legal perspective
that is easier to enforce? I mean it's more understandable for the citizens. It's -- it's, you
know, Sergeant Frasier and his team that he supervises, okay, here is -- here is what it is
and I -- I don't know, I would like your thoughts on some of the things that we are -- you
can even expand a little bit upon that, so --
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Hoaglun, that is a possibility. Just to do -- delineate
by speed limit or road type or road description, all of those are within your purview to do
that. As far as enforcement, I think it is just a matter of educating and there is a pretty
well established community we have learned and so, you know, it's -- I wouldn't say it's
easy to get the word out, but the word does travel. So, that is a possibility.
Simison: And maybe even throw in one other option that was -- come up at some point
in time in conversations is you could lower the speed limit to 20 miles per hour throughout
the city and other areas to, again, make it more -- to make it safer for all these vehicles in
subdivisions, which is the speed limit that Nampa has and Boise has. So, it's not, you
know, completely out there.
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Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: When licenses are issued does the county -- does DMV provide those
individuals with any kind of written information on what city ordinance would be in the
area that they live in? So, are they obligated to sign any kind of, you know, disclosure
that says you live in Meridian, therefore, you know, here is the rules that need to be
followed? Is -- I mean do they do that or is that -- I would imagine that if they were trying
to enforce that for every city in Ada county it would be complicated, but is there any way
to know when those get registered and at least send them some information if we are
talking about an educational campaign, so that they have that available?
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Woman Perreault, the Idaho Department of Parks and
Recreation is the -- probably the agency that's most plugged into ATVs, UTVs, and other
off highway vehicles. The state statute that will go into effect in July requires that they be
-- that that department be incorporated or notified of a city ordinance that's under
consideration restricting or regulating OHVs. So, that might be a better option for helping
get the word out than DMV, because I don't believe that the DMV does provide any
information or testing on local municipal regulations.
Perreault: Mr. Mayor, is this a situation where we would send this back to the
Transportation Commission for more conversation based on what we have talked about
today or is this a scenario where the decision should be made during this work session?
Simison: I don't think that we are to a decision point necessarily. I think the question is
is there further dialogue or an actual ordinance that we would bring forward for
consideration. From what my understanding is I think the Transportation Commission
has discussed this enough that they are -- it's time for Council to determine whether or
not this is -- what's an appropriate direction or not, would be my viewpoint from what I
have heard.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: I have -- I have went around the horn on this issue from a spot of get them all
off the roads to put them all on the roads and somewhere in between. I do think, though,
that it's probably beneficial, because the amount of work that the Transportation
Commission has put into this, it is a hot topic of conversation in our community to at least
have a -- a public hearing. I don't know if we want to have a public hearing on this
proposed ordinance or if there is some Council Members that would want to make some
requested modifications beforehand. I'm certainly supportive of hearing from our
community, particularly those that are UTV drivers and understanding the nuance. I think
what the Transportation Commission started -- I thought of just three wheelers, four
wheelers and occasional side by side and learning about all the differences that are out
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there has been enlightening for me and it does make it more challenging to contextualize
what is and what isn't a UTV and how it differentiates between a motorcycle or a trike or
these -- I was looking at these cool sidewinders that Polaris makes. I mean it can be
confusing. So, getting some added information from those that are owners and drivers
of these vehicles I think would be helpful for us as we make a decision, if any.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I agree with Councilman Cavener. I think they are getting the public -- getting
public testimony would be important just to know what they have to say about it
beforehand. I think it would be -- it probably would make more sense to come up with a
draft. It would make sense to come up with something that we can present to the public
for them to be able to have an opinion on. I think that would be -- it would keep us more
focused. That would be my recommendation. Come up with something that we can
present and, then, have debate.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Question for the Council President. Are you comfortable with at least putting
out the draft that staff has put forth as presented or did you -- are there changes or tweaks
that you would want to make before you put it out there? First, I'm comfortable putting
out the draft that staff has put out. We may make changes after the public feedback, but
unless anyone's feeling really passionately that we have got to make this change right
here right now --
Simison: I would make a suggestion that -- I like the conversation. We did the same for
the scooters. You know, people understand speed limits. I don't understand -- I can't --
I'm trying to think if the road on my street is a collector or not into Tuscany. I think it is.
But I'm not positive. That to -- either being more definitive on arterial or a speed limit, I
think it helps clarify and so I would defer to maybe at the speed limit conversation for the
draft, if people would be open to that for the consideration, as compared to arterial and
collector definitions.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor? Sorry.
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Mr. Mayor, I think the conversation about speed limits is a -- is a separate issue.
For the benefit of the Council that was also a topic that the transportation considered and
they were not supportive of making any changes to the speed limits at this time.
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Simison: I wasn't suggesting changing the speed limits. I was saying we have got to
define where they can be ridden.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Because it clarifies for the most part -- the only -- I think Pine and Main are the
only two collector roadways that I'm aware of that are near arterials that have the 25 mile
per hour speed limit posted. Everything else is 35 or higher, so -- Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor. Yeah. I think it would still be a draft. It can always be changed.
But I think doing it with a speed limit of, you know, no person shall operate an ATV on a
street with a speed limit greater than 25 miles per hour, just says, okay, these are the
streets -- and we can always add in -- except for, you know, designate Pine -- yeah, Pine
and Main and those as off limits as well, if we feel the need to, but I just think having the
speed limit designation makes it easier. It sounds like from the beginning it was just
difficult for officers to explain or difficult for people who understand it. So, I'm just trying
to find ways that we can say, okay, it's very simple and -- and -- and the sergeant has laid
them out, you know, being licensed, liability, restricted license plate and you're operating
at a speed -- a street that's 25 miles hour-- 25 miles an hour or less, so -- and, then, there
might be more things that come out of it, but, again, it's a draft, but if that's something,
Sergeant Frasier, you're comfortable with -- I mean I'm comfortable with moving forward
and, then, getting the feedback from -- from our citizens saying, yea, nay, tweak this,
tweak that and get that feedback, but your -- your thoughts, sergeant?
Frasier: Yes. Thank you. I'm comfortable with that. It was an idea I proposed and it's
an answer to the greater question is what is the city's stance on the issue. Or would like
to do about it, if that's what the city as a whole decides. I'm comfortable with that.
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: Ms. Kane, thoughts?
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Bernt, that is easy enough. Would the Council like
that draft to come back for review and, then, set the matter for public hearing orjust rewrite
and set the matter for public hearing?
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: I would be satisfied with just receiving an e-mail copy prior to a public hearing.
I don't know if the Council -- fellow Council Members have thoughts on that, but --
Strader: Mr. Mayor?
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Simison: Council Woman Strader.
Strader: I think that leaves a significant lack of clarity regarding golf carts, which it seems
like we have a flawed ordinance now. I'm not supportive right now moving forward, unless
we have some data that justifies a public safety reason for moving forward, which I have
not seen. I still think it's an improvement to have a speed limit -- I think if we are going to
do it it's an improvement to have it done by speed limit and not by a definition of a type of
roadway. I would encourage us to include golf carts in the speed -- within the allowed
alternative vehicles. I see a lot of people in golf carts in my neighborhood. It's never
been an issue. Any issue I have seen has already been illegal under existing law. So,
that's what my struggle is still. So, I'm not supportive of moving forward with an ordinance
right now, but I would say if you do want to do it, that's totally cool, but I would just make
sure you address the golf cart question.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: And as I read through the draft -- and you might make sure I completely
understand. Under the definitions of off highway vehicle it included -- shall be defined as
all-terrain vehicles, which are ATVs, motorbikes, specialty off highway vehicles and that
was a golf cart for that definition there and, then, any UTVs or utility type vehicles. Is that
correct? So, golf carts would be included as an OHV, as would be defined in -- as defined
in this ordinance; correct?
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Hoaglun, yes, that is correct.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Kane: The state statute defines OHVs as specialty off highway vehicles, ATVs, UTVs,
and motorbikes. But our city code as drafted doesn't include motorbikes. That's not an
issue we are seeing at all.
Hoaglun: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Ms. Kane, if you might expound on motorbikes, because I did see something
last night for the first time that -- it was a little more than an electric bicycle and it was
going quite fast, but when I looked and it went past and there was no license on it
whatsoever and two people and -- it was really beefed up. So, is that a motorbike or what
are we talking when you say motorbike now?
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Hoaglun, there is a distinction between an electric
bike and a motorbike and a moped and a motorcycle. So, who knows. It's there. It's all
kinds of new gadgets out there and for the most part the state code covers them and
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makes some distinctions, but I think there are some things on the road that defy definition
by the state code.
Simison: And, you know, I think where I have navigated to in this conversation, at least
right now by most of the conversations, if you can license it and register it and have a
license and insurance and have a licensed driver on it, that's one thing. If you can't it's a
different thing, you know, from where and how -- but it's -- still it's a huge -- it's -- I don't
know how long it's taken in this world for people to understand that you can't -- I refer to
the CR80 -- Honda CR80s that they were not street legal, but it probably took me until I
was 15 to understand that different concept between seeing XR 250 and a CR80, why
one could go down the road with knobby tires and why the other couldn't for a kid and I
think we got to remember, it's our kids who are driving these things. With or without
parental knowledge or with or without parental supervision, that's -- that's who I see
driving all of these. I don't see adults, you know, from a practical standpoint. So, what
makes sense and we just want to make sure that they are -- if they are going to be on
them that they understand where they can and can't and will they understand the
difference when they see someone driving down the road, you know, down -- that to me
is that educational component that I don't know if they will understand until what point in
time -- oh, that has a mirror and a horn. Who notices that? Like, oh, they went to the
store, I can go to the store. Just driving in the subdivision, it's just down the street, so --
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt. I would be okay with having you bring back a revised
document specifying what we spoke about tonight and just having --
Perreault: Mr. Mayor, as part of that revision can we discuss if Council is in agreement
with the current fine amount or if there is any interest in increasing it? I have an interest
in increasing it. I think it will be more prohibitive, but I'm curious to hear what my fellow
Council Members have to say.
Simison: Councilman Cavener.
Cavener: Mayor, thanks. So, I think I'm in a similar boat to Council Member Strader. I
-- the Mayor has got a good point. It's licensed, registered, insured -- I don't know if we
need to classify this as something special, but I guess I would suggest if the topic of
increasing the fine is something Council is supportive of, let's -- let's present as close to
what the Transportation Commission has worked on to the public and, then, after we have
taken that public feedback if we want to make those changes, I think that makes sense,
unless PD has a recommended fine. I don't know what the fine structure is for you guys
when you are citing people for excessive speed or a seatbelt, inattentive driving. So, I
wouldn't -- I would hate for us to start wading into unilaterally picking out what that fine
should be without further guidance from PD.
Simison: Personally, you know, I'm not a police officer, but I view the fines as educational
opportunities, rather than a deterrent to behavior. Sometimes they are, but in this case I
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don't -- I don't know that it would deter. You know, if you are not getting points on your
license, if you are not being -- I don't know. Maybe it will be, though. If it's high enough
it probably would be, but --
Perreault: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Council Woman Perreault.
Perreault: And I'm just thinking about myself as a youth and I'm 17 years old and I want
to get somewhere and all I'm going to possibly risk is a 25 dollar fine, who cares.
Kane: Mr. Mayor, Council Member Perreault, it's -- actually with court costs it's closer to
85. It's 83.50 if court costs are 58.50. So, it would significantly increase with the court
costs, if that matters.
Simison: Any direction?
Kane: Mr. Mayor, just to make sure I understood, Council President Bernt's direction, we
come back with a draft and, then, move forward or update the draft and go forward with
a public hearing?
Simison: If the draft is sent electronically to Council, and, then, schedule for a public
hearing on the topic. So, we want a regular public hearing, just a work session topic.
Yeah.
Kane: Okay. There needs to be a 30 day comment period and the Idaho Parks and Rec
Department needs to be notified, so that Council can consider their comments, if any. So,
it needs to be at least 30 days out.
Simison: Take your time. All right. Thirty days. Whatever. Okay. Thank you. Council,
do I have a motion?
Bernt: Mr. Mayor?
Simison: Councilman Bernt.
Bernt: I move that we adjourn.
Hoaglun: Second the motion.
Simison: Motion and a second to adjourn. All in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed
nay. The ayes have it. We are adjourned.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 5.41 P.M.
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(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
7 / 6 / 2021
MAYOR ROBERT E. SIMISON DATE APPROVED
ATTEST:
CHRIS JOHNSON - CITY CLERK
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