2020-02-06 Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting February 6, 2020.
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of February 6, 2020, was
called to order at 6:00 p.m. by Chairman Ryan Fitzgerald.
Members Present: Chairman Ryan Fitzgerald, Commissioner Rhonda McCarvel,
Commissioner Lisa Holland, Commissioner Andrew Seal, Commissioner Nick Grove and
Commissioner Patricia Pitzer.
Members Absent: Commissioner Bill Cassinelli.
Others Present: Adrienne Weatherly, Andrea Pogue, Bill Parsons, Sonya Allen and Dean
Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance
X Lisa Holland X Reid Olsen
X Andrew Seal X Nick Grove
X Patricia Pitzer Bill Cassinelli
X Ryan Fitzgerald - Chairman
Fitzgerald: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time I would like to call to order
the regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning meeting for the date
of February 6 and let's start with roll call.
Item 2: Adoption of Agenda
Fitzgerald: Thanks, Madam Clerk. The first on the agenda is the adoption of the agenda.
I don't have any changes. Can I get a motion to adopt the agenda as presented?
Seal: So moved.
McCarvel: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as presented. All those in
favor say aye. Opposed same. Motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: SIX AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: Before we go forward I want to take the opportunity to welcome our two new
commissioners, Nick Grove and Patty Pitzer. If you guys want to take an opportunity to
introduce yourselves to our audience, our Commission, and all those on the wonderful
screen at home to say hello and if you want to say anything about yourself or your
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 4 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 2 of 35
experience or your excitement about being on the Commission we would really appreciate
it. Nick, if you want to start.
Grove: I am Nick Grove. Excited to be on this for the next few years. Really looking
forward to taking some of the experiences that I learned being a part of the
comprehensive steering committee and excited to see all the things that come in front of
this Commission, so --
Fitzgerald: Appreciate it. Commissioner Pitzer, do you want to say hello, ma'am.
Pitzer: Thank you. Hi, I'm Patricia Pitzer. I recently retired. Been in Meridian for 28
years and I'm looking forward to this new opportunity.
Item 3: Consent Agenda [Action Item]
A. Approve Minutes of January 16, 2020 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting
Fitzgerald: We appreciate it, ma'am. Thank you both. Next item on the agenda is the
Consent Agenda. We only have one item on the agenda, which is the --or on the Consent
Agenda, which is approve the minutes of January 16th, 2020, Planning and Zoning
Commission meeting. Can I get a motion to adopt the Consent Agenda?
McCarvel: So moved.
Seal: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to adopt the Consent Agenda. All those in favor
say aye. Opposed same. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: SIX AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: At this time I will explain the public hearing process for this evening. We will
open each item individually and, then, start with the staff report. The staff will report their
findings regarding how the application adheres to our Comprehensive Plan and Uniform
Development Code with the staff's recommendations. After staff has made their
presentation the applicant will come forward to present their case for the approval of their
application and respond to any comments from the staff and the applicant will have 15
minutes to do so. After the applicant has finished we will open the floor to public
testimony. There is an iPad in the back if you want to -- wish to speak on a specific
application, please, make sure you sign up on that application in the back and you will
have three minutes to present your comments to the Commission. Is there anyone here
representing an HOA tonight? Okay. So, we will skip that piece. After all testimony has
been heard, the applicant will be given another ten minutes to have an opportunity to
respond to public testimony and, then, close the discussion and at that time we will close
the public hearing and the Commissioners will have a chance to deliberate and hopefully
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 5 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 3 of 35
make a recommendation to City Council on certain applications tonight and, then,
approve others.
Item 4: Action Items
A. Public Hearing for Quality Inn & Suites (H-2019-0140) by Quality
Inn & Suites - Meridian, Located at 1575 S. Meridian Rd.
1. Request: Conditional Use Permit to reinstate the
nonconforming status of the sign with changes to the sign that
aren't consistent with the standards listed in UDC 11-3D-
8A.14.
Fitzgerald: So, with that I will turn to our wonderful staff if they have gotten over technical
difficulties? Maybe? Yes? Smiling. And start with our first public hearing, which is for
Quality Inn & Suites, file number H-2019-0140. Sonya, we will start with you and the staff
report.
Allen: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission. The first application before
you tonight is a request for a conditional use permit. This site is zoned C-G and is located
at 1575 South Meridian Road on the west side of South Meridian Road, south of the 1-84
off ramp. The Comprehensive Plan future land use map designation on this property is
commercial. A conditional use permit is requested to reinstate the nonconforming status
of the sign for Quality Inn & Suites with changes to the sign that are not consistent with
the standards listed in the UDC. The applicant is proposing to install a new sign cabinet
shown on the right on the existing sign structure shown on the left that is 244 square feet,
with a height of 50 feet, with no changes to the area at the base of the sign. The reason
for the change is for rebranding purposes of the business. The proposed sign exceeds
the maximum 40 foot tall height and 150 foot square -- square feet, excuse me,
background area and is not set within a landscaped area having at least the same square
footage as the background area of the sign as currently required by the UDC. No
landscaping exists at the base of the sign as you can see there. If this request is not
approved -- excuse me. For these reasons it is considered a nonconforming sign and as
such a conditional use permit is required to reinstate the status of the sign. If this request
is not approved the applicant would still be allowed to change the copy area and/or repaint
the existing sign, provided that the sign or sign structure is not altered in any way.
Although the proposed sign is not consistent with current UDC standards, it does lessen
the existing nonconformity of the sign by reducing the background area of the existing
sign by more than half and the site -- excuse me -- the height of the sign by eight feet four
inches. For this reason staff is amenable to the applicant's request. However,
recommends as a condition of approval that the design of the sign include decorative
elements that are more aesthetically pleasing than just a rectangular cabinet. This is a
recommendation only and it's not a requirement of the UDC. Staff recommends the
applicant work with staff on a more appealing design for the site. Written testimony has
been received from Cole Fischer, Persona Signs. Rachel Wehrle, Choice Hotels. They
are not in agreement with staff's recommendation to add decorative elements to the sign.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 6 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 4 of 35
Staff is recommending approval with the aforementioned condition. Staff will stand for
any questions.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, ma'am. Any questions for staff?
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: Just a quick question. As far as the improvements as to the sign itself, not the
surrounding area or below the sign, something along those lines?
Allen: Yeah. Mr. Chair -- Chairman. Yes, it's just the sign on top.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions? Before bringing the applicant up, just for Commissioner
Grove and Commissioner Pitzer, this is a conditional use permit, so we will be the
approving body. So, this is not a recommendation to City Council. We are the -- we are
it. So, final decision lies with the Commission. So, with that would the applicant like to
come forward and -- on behalf of the application -- or applicant. Gentlemen, thank you
for being here with us tonight. Please state your names and your addresses for the
record, please.
Brown: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. I'm Terry Brown
with Lytle Sign Company. Reside at 270 East Commercial Street here in Meridian, Idaho.
Mitchell: Good evening. My name is Thomas Mitchell. I'm with Quality Inn & Suites,
located at 1475 South Meridian Road.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, guys. Please proceed.
Brown: We have got kind of a very unique situation here with a rebranding process. Mr.
Sandman has been in Meridian for 30 years -- 30 years. They recently sold to the Choice
Hotel chain and, obviously, wanted to rebrand. We have been in the process for eight
months --
Mitchell: Yes.
Brown: -- on trying to get a sign up for their location. What we ended up doing is basically
taking and blacking out the top portion of the sign and stringing a banner over it, so they
would have some type of branding for the last six -- five months.
Mitchell: Yes.
Brown: We realized that it was nonconforming based on current standards today. Okay.
We went back with the sign manufacturer-- me being the subcontractor for Choice Hotels
-- and came up with a plan to compromise, if you will, on the height and the background
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 7 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 5 of 35
area. We think it's very important that, number one, they get branding out there right now.
As it is they have no night illumination and as you all know on that particular property,
you got hundreds of thousands of cars up and down that freeway. Basically the sign is
visible from the daytime and we get no nighttime exposure. We looked at
recommendation provided by staff. We sent it off. There -- I believe you all should have
a copy of the letter from Persona stating safety concerns. There also was a letter in the
packet from Choice Hotel talking about their branding, as well as comments from Tom as
the general manager over here. I would just like to say looking at the signs in the vicinity
north of their location, there appears to be similar signs, whether it be rectangular or
square. We just don't know what decorative elements that they are wanting. We are
willing to listen, but at this point in time any decorative elements are going to go against
the branding of Choice Hotels. If it's something that we need to add some landscaping
to the base -- the entire base is a parking lot area with a concrete pad. So, we will have
to endure some costs associated with that if that would be a compromise. So, that was
all I would like to speak. Tommy, would you like to speak on your behalf?
Mitchell: Yes. Like Mr. Brown said, we are willing to do whatever is necessary to make
this happen and please staff, the Commission, anybody involved, so we may rebrand and
get exposure for our hotel as it is. A big financial impact on us right now to not have --
attract evening travelers from the 1-84.
Fitzgerald: Any questions for applicant?
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: You mentioned there were some safety concerns. Could you expand on what
those safety concerns would be about, adding other decorative elements?
Brown: Yeah. Your -- if you look at the slide that's up on the left side, the existing sign,
it's basically a double cabinet which consists of two tenants. The top cabinet is an old
florescent illuminated cabinet. Okay? Which is bolted onto the top of the rectangular
cabinet. Okay? To do what we want to do we have to take that top cabinet off. Okay?
It's been there for -- gosh, we have been working on it as a company since Lytle Signs
has been in Meridian for the past 11 years. So, there are some safety concerns with
leaving that up there and, plus, it goes against the branding for Choice of -- of how they
want their signs to look.
Mitchell: If I may elaborate, I did speak to staff regarding what decorative elements they
wanted and they stated that they wanted that top piece to remain. So, that's where the
safety concern came is if we left that top roof looking piece, that's where the safety
concern was at.
Fitzgerald: Follow up? Go right ahead, Ma'am.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 8 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 6 of 35
Holland: A follow-up question. So, in the proposed sign that you are putting up there,
would you be replacing both elements of the cabinets that are existing with a completely
new one or would you be keeping the bottom cabinet and just removing the top structure?
Brown: Removing the top structure. Keeping the pole intact, basically the footing. There
will be some additional fabrication work, if you will, that will have to remain for that bottom
cabinet. That bottom cabinet now is neon. Okay? Originally that sign was designed to
be fluorescent. Years ago we went in as a company and converted it from fluorescent to
neon. Okay? We had to take the skins off the cabinet basically, build new channel letters,
refabricate that to it. So, right now we are -- we are working with a converted twice sign.
So, we want to definitely take the -- the top cabinet off, all the letters will come off, the
skins will come off, we will have to add some additional structure and also we are putting
LEDs back in for the cost efficiency and the lighting efficiency as well. And, then, the new
cabinet will, then, be refaced.
Holland: Okay. One more follow-up question if I may.
Fitzgerald: Go right ahead.
Holland: So, when you are adjusting the -- the main cabinet, is there the ability to put a
different kind of decoration -- of decorative element around that square box, rather than
the existing structure? You can take that piece off. Is there something else you can put
on the top that would give it a little bit more texture and diversity?
Brown: I would have to defer to Tom, because all's I have is -- is a letter that Choice sent
regarding their signage and their branding. So, Tom, I would have to --
Mitchell: Yeah. So, as a -- as a franchisee -- the franchise would not allow us to put
anything on the top of it. It needs to be one piece, whether it's square, rectangular,
whatever it may be. I mean if -- if we want to -- if it's requested that we do a square, we
will be happy to do a square. If we need to replace a pole we will be happy to replace the
pole, if those are -- if we feel those are not aesthetically pleasing.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions?
McCarvel: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: Can you tell me -- it looks -- I can't tell if it's just different lighting on that picture,
but it is your intent to paint the poles as well to make them all one color?
Brown: Yes. Yeah. The current structure is two different colors, if you will. There is a
graduation and by that you have a larger pole at the base and it reduces down to a smaller
size that, then, goes into the cabinet itself. There is actually a plate there and our -- our
intent is to make that all one color. There is one other element right at the base of the
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 9 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 7 of 35
cabinet that looks like -- but it is part of that cabinet. I mean if-- if we needed to paint that
to -- to give it some contrast, we would be happy to do that. Tommy mentioned a new
cabinet. Again, we are at the mercy of the -- of the Choice franchise with a -- you know,
significant dollar amount.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions?
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: One more question. I know -- I have driven through this lot a few times and I
know at the bottom of the sign where the curb kind of goes around it -- you can see it in
the picture that there is a few damaged pieces of that curb that go around the sign. Would
you be willing to help fix some of those issues, that it looked more cohesive on the --
Mitchell: This is actually an older picture and that curbing has been replaced since this
picture was taken, but there is all -- all of that area where it's cracked and broken is -- is
brand new curbing.
Holland: Great. Thank you.
Pitzer: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Pitzer, go ahead.
Pitzer: Thank you. So, is the sign that you are proposing here, this rectangle sign, is that
the sign that's on all Quality Inns & Suits, is that the branding itself?
Mitchell: It's pretty -- pretty close. Some -- some have square signs, square cabinets
versus rectangle, but that is the standard Quality Inn signage, yes.
Pitzer: Thank you.
Mitchell: Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions? Gentlemen, we appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Brown: Thank you.
Mitchell: Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Sonya, while they are wandering back, is there any -- was there any
discussion around alternative compliance? I mean I know that we have -- whether it's
landscaping or those kinds of things around the sign, was that a discussion you had?
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 10 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 8 of 35
Allen: Chairman, Members of the Commission, no, because of its nonconforming status
it's not a requirement now.
Fitzgerald: Got it. Okay. Madam Clerk, do we have anyone who has signed up to testify?
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, no one's signed up for this.
Fitzgerald: Is there anyone in the audience that would like to testify on this application?
Going once. Going twice. Okay.
McCarvel: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: I move to close the public hearing on H-2019-0140.
Seal: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on H-2019-0140.
All those in favor say aye. Opposed same.
MOTION CARRIED: SIX AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: Commission, the application is properly before you. Do you have comments?
Thoughts?
McCarvel: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: I actually like the clean lines of the proposed --what's on the proposed picture
with the solid color. I would like to see the landscaping and upgrading at the base, even
though I know they said the curbing has been done. I think the more development that
comes around there -- I know what's next door and just to clean that up a little bit, make
it look more fresh, but other than that I don't mind the top parts coming off.
Fitzgerald: Additional comments? Commissioner Seal?
Seal: Mr. Chairman. In agreement with just cleaning up the basement of it and like they
said, the curbing itself has been fixed, but just a little bit of beautification to that to add to
it. But I agree, I think -- I mean that sign is pretty standard. It would be nice to see
something up there that would be a little more uniquely Meridian, but we can't have that
on every sign, so -- it's nice this one's actually coming down a little bit, so -- I mean it's
coming more into conformance. So, hopefully, it will continue in that direction. But it's
got to be seen from the freeway, so --
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 11 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 9 of 35
Fitzgerald: And I get that -- and I agree with you, I -- I tend to -- I get that there is a need
definitely to be seen from the freeway. The challenge is it's -- it's a nonconforming sign
and that always brings all -- all kinds of other fun with it. I do appreciate that it's shrinking.
So, that's a good thing. But I -- it's one of those things I think we could make it less
billboardy, but I understand the challenges they are up against, too. Anyone else?
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I know staff's recommendation was to have the applicant work with staff on a
more appealing design for the sign. They wanted to see a little bit more architectural
design around the top, so it wasn't just a straight -- straight rectangle. We could certainly
make a recommendation that they work with staff to see if they can come up with
something that would be appropriate for Quality Inn & Suites and I'm not sure how you
condition that if they can't come to some sort of agreement that we would still let them go
forward with it, but just a thought. I'm -- I'm not opposed to cleaning up the sign, shrinking
the space. I think it would be nice to see a little more landscaping cleaned up down there,
but --just a thought.
Pitzer: Chair Fitzgerald?
Fitzgerald: Yes.
Pitzer: Having been a franchisee owner myself at one time I understand the problems
that they are going to face if they go against their franchise agreement on signage. It's
-- it's nice that it's smaller. They can add some contrast and I appreciate that fact that --
and they are going to LEDs and getting rid of the neon. I think all of those are positives.
Fitzgerald: I appreciate your perspective as a former franchisee. That's -- appreciate
that. Mr. Grove, any thoughts? We won't make you talk all the time, unless you want to.
Grove: I agree with what everyone's said so far. I like the fact that it will be reduced in
size -- in height from what it is currently and 1, too, would like to see if there could be some
landscaping at the base or something to break up that monotony and I think that would
help. Just around the base of the sign. But overall I like the fact of it shrinking.
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: I'm formulating on a --
Fitzgerald: On a motion?
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 12 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 10 of 35
Seal: -- on a motion here and so I mean just to reiterate, I mean, essentially, I'm in
agreement that if we could add something in to work with the staff to provide colors and
landscaping that will add more contrast, is that -- I mean I don't want to paint anybody
into a corner, but at the same time I think there is something that -- you know, I think it
could use a little more.
Fitzgerald: Something.
Seal: For lack of better terminology and the more is something I don't want to -- I'm --
you know, I'm not a designer myself, so it's kind of interesting, you know, to go through
this -- to go through this and try and figure out the proper wording that's going to get at
what we are trying to do, which is, you know, get a little bit more substance to the sign, a
little more contrast to the sign without denying it all together.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: One other thought to add to your motion just for consideration. Perhaps just
offering that the applicant make a reasonable attempt to explore if there is any decorative
elements they can add to the top of the sign to consider with staff. But if -- if they can't
come to a reasonable agreement that we be okay with it. I don't know how to frame that,
but that's the best wording I can come up with.
Seal: That's a tough one.
Fitzgerald: It is. And I -- well, I think -- and I appreciate where you are going and I do
appreciate the need for the franchisee to do what they need to do for the company, so --
and they need to have advertising out there based on where they are and I know that sign
has been there for a long time -- ever since I can remember, so --
Parsons: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, if I may.
Fitzgerald: Welcome back.
Parsons: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. I'm glad you are all still here.
Fitzgerald: We were multiplying while you were gone.
Parsons: When Sonya and I were working on the staff report -- really she -- she wrote it,
but I had the comment that, you know, if we are going to approve -- continue a
nonconforming sign we want something that's nicer for the community. That's not an
unreasonable request. I mean that's what a conditional use permit is, is to get something
more -- it allows you the purview to get something better -- better than what code allows
for. In discussing the proposal with the applicant, this is a one dimensional drawing. I
don't know exactly what that's going to look like in reality, but I was asking if there was an
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 13 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 11 of 35
opportunity to -- again, just kind of clarifying the record, it was never staff's intention to
leave the Mr. Sandman cabinet on top. That's something that they offered up. We don't
-- we don't think that needs to stay on top of that sign. It -- it won't blend in with what they
are trying to do. Sometimes less is more in design. But I think the Commission has some
good ideas. Landscaping will help. I'm glad to hear that the curbing is repaired as well.
But the intent was to just to add some kind of cornice detail on the top, like the Walmart
sign just down the road. There is some kind of cornice around it, just kind of gives it a
little bit more reveal, a little more dimensional at the top of the sign, not adding a real -- it
doesn't really change the aesthetic of the sign that much, it just gives it more -- a little
depth as you -- as you were looking for. The other thing that we could look at is whether
or not -- I like -- I appreciate that the applicant is wanting to use LED lighting. I think that
does make a sign look modern and new. So, I think that will contribute to the look of the
sign, in the evening particularly, but if there is an opportunity to maybe make those letters
on the cabinet sign itself, if those could be three dimensional or as they are pressing the
new copy in there, if there is a way to at least make those pop off of that a little bit, that
that's a way to get some change or, you know, make those --
Fitzgerald: Some texture relief.
Parsons: Yes. So, you can --you can do that, rather than just it being a flat panel, maybe
there is a way that they can have those pop -- or stand out a ways -- pushed out from the
cabinet there and make it look like it's a three dimensional lettering versus just all on the
same plane and monochromatic. But it's just some thoughts out there. I think we had
some good ideas this evening. I don't want you to give a Ioosey goosey condition. If you
feel adamant that you just want to give them flexibility, I would just say just let them go
forward with what they are proposing. Don't try to -- don't try to work it so much that --
give us flexibility to work with them. Appreciate that. But, again, staff has this
recommendation. We wanted some more. If you feel like they will be in violation of that
branding and you feel that that's not appropriate and that additional lighting serves that
purpose, then, go ahead and include that in your motion. Staff's feelings won't be hurt
either way.
Fitzgerald: Thanks, Bill. Comments following that feedback? Commissioner Seal, did
you have any thoughts, because I think what Bill is saying -- I think that can be done
relatively -- I mean I'm not a sign maker, but I think you could do some -- some kind of
pop out or some kind of relief on the flat so, it's not a flat billboard.
Seal: I think I'm ready to make a motion.
Fitzgerald: Motions are always in order.
Seal: Mr. Chairman?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 14 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 12 of 35
Seal: After considering all staff, applicant and public testimony, I move to recommend
approval to the City Council -- recommending -- recommend approval to the City Council
on file number H-2019 --
Fitzgerald: It's approval.
McCarvel: We are not recommending to City Council, we are doing approval.
Seal: You're right.
Fitzgerald: You are approving.
Seal: Recommend approval, sorry, of file H-2019-0141 as presented in the staff report
for the hearing date of February 6, 2020, with the following modifications: That they work
with the staff to provide colors and landscaping that will add more contrast, as well as
provide for a more decorative design that will also comply with the franchise requirements.
Holland: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to approve file number H-2019-0140 with the
modifications. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same. Motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: SIX AYES. ONE NAY.
B. Public Hearing for Graycliff Estates Subdivision (H-2019-0129)
by Star Development, Inc., Generally Located South of W.
Harris St. and West of S. Meridian Rd.
1. Request: Preliminary plat consisting of 202 building lots, 15
common lots and 4 other lots on 52.46 acres of land in the R-
8 and R-40 zoning districts.
Fitzgerald: Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here tonight. Okay. So, I'm --
Madam Attorney, I'm going to hand the reins of our meeting over tonight. I have a guest
in the back of the room that needs me to take him to an event tonight, so I'm going to
hand the reins of the meeting over to our very able vice-chair, so she can take the rest of
the meeting over and, Commissioner Holland, Madam Chair, I'm going to step away and
let you all have a wonderful rest of the evening. Sorry I can't stay for the next adventure.
Thank you.
Holland: With that we will open up the public hearing for Graycliff Estates Subdivision, H-
2019-0129, and begin with the staff report.
Allen: Thank you, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. The next application
before you is a request for a preliminary plat. There is also a development agreement
modification application that's been requested concurrently. The Commission is not a
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 15 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 13 of 35
recommending body on the development agreement modification. However, you may
insert your your comments if you wish. This site consists of 52.46 acres of land. It's
zoned R-8 and R-40 and it's located southwest of West Harris Street and South Meridian
Road, State Highway 69. Adjacent land uses and zoning. There are existing and future
single family residential homes zoned R-4, R-8 and R-15. This property was annexed
back in 2015 and a preliminary plat was approved for 120 buildable lots. A subsequent
preliminary plat was approved in 2018, which increased the number of buildable lots to
136. This entitlement is still valid. The Comprehensive Plan future land use map
designation for this property is medium density residential. The applicant is requesting a
modification to the existing development agreement to increase the number of single
family residential building lots from 136 to 200 and the qualified open space is
substantially the same from 8.85 to 8.97 acres. The number of multi-family buildable lots
and apartments are proposed to stay the same at two and -- 224 units respectively. Other
minor modifications to the development agreement are noted in Section 8-A of the staff
report. The previous gross density -- excuse me. Let me back up just a minute here.
forgot to show this when I was referencing the 2015 preliminary plat. Where we started
at as on the left and, then, the amended -- or new preliminary plat in 2018 is on the right.
This showed a few more building lots. The previous gross density of the single family
residential portion of the development was 3.23 units per acre, compared to 4.9 units per
acre currently proposed. And this is the proposed preliminary plan before you. The
density of the multi-family portion is the same at 14.18 units per acre. The proposed
increase in density is still consistent with that desired in the medium density residential
future land use map designation. The previous development phase included a 1 ,720
linear foot segment of the city's ten foot wide multi-use pathway in a linear open space
area where the Northwest Williams northwest pipeline is located, which bisects the site.
A children's play structure and yard shuffleboard were also proposed as amenities. The
proposed plan still includes a multi-use pathway and children's play structure, but the yard
shuffleboard has been removed and a community swimming pool is proposed as an
upgraded amenity in its place. The access and interconnectivity proposed to adjacent
parcels with the proposed plan is substantially the same as the previous plan. The
proposed plat consists of 200 single family residential buildable lots, two multi-family
residential buildable lots, 14 common lots, three common driveway lots and one park lot
that may be a portion of a future city neighborhood park and that is the one right here at
the northwest corner of the site and, then, there is a city well lot that's proposed on the
next lot over right here. Total area of the plat is 52.46 acres of land in the R-8 medium
density residential zone and the R-40 high density residential zoning district. Proposed
single family residential lots range in size from 4,200 to 9,600 square feet, with an average
lot size of 4,692 square feet and a gross density of 4.89 units per acre. The project is
proposed to develop in four phases with the multi-family residential developing last.
Access is proposed via the extension of West Harris Street, a collector street, from South
Meridian Road, State Highway 69. A collector street is also planned along the west
boundary of the site in accord with the master street map. Public streets are proposed
for internal access within the single family residential portion of the development with stub
streets at the project's south and east boundaries for future extension. Two driveway
connections are proposed between the single family residential and multi-family
residential portions of the development for interconnectivity and those are -- if you can
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 16 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 14 of 35
see my pointer -- right here. A driveway is required at the east boundary of the multi-
family residential development to future development, which is Stapleton Subdivision to
the east for emergency access. A total of 8.97 acres or 17.1 percent of qualified open
space is proposed in excess of the minimum UDC standards, which is ten percent, and
includes a 1.69 acre common area that I previously mentioned at the northwest corner of
the site that may be included with common area in adjacent developments, Biltmore
Estates and Brundage Estates and consolidated for a city neighborhood park. Site
amenities are proposed as previously mentioned that exceed the minimum standards.
The Sundell and the Tumbler Laterals, which cross this site, are proposed to be piped
with development. The Williams northwest gas pipeline, as I mentioned, bisects this site
and lies within a 70 foot -- five foot wide easement -- and that is this green space right
through here where the pathway is located. All development within the easement is
required to adhere to the most current standards in the Williams Gas Pipeline developers
handbook. The applicant has provided the city with a lease on a parcel of land within Lot
1, Block 9, for a future city well and that, as I mentioned, is in this lot right here. The well
lot shall be created and deeded to the city at the time of final platting. Conceptual building
elevations were submitted as shown, demonstrating the quality of homes and architecture
proposed. Because facades of homes adjacent to collector streets will be highly visible,
the elevations are required to incorporate articulation to break up monotonous wall planes
and roof lines visible from the public right of way. Written testimony has been received
from Becky McKay, the applicant's representative. She is in agreement with the staff
report, except for one change to Condition A-10 in Section 9 and that is to change the
timing for dedication to the well lot to the city from -- at the time of final platting to after
recording of the final plat and staff is in agreement with this change. Written testimony
was also received from Jennifer Pedrali. She is not in favor of the increased density
proposed due to already a lot of traffic in the area and school overcrowding and she
believes impact fees are too low to support all the development in Meridian. And, lastly,
written testimony was received from Victoria Laidlaw. She wants to ensure the developer
will still install a six foot tall fence on top of a berm across the entire southern end of the
development adjoining her property to ensure crops on her property won't be ruined due
to trespassing and that an underground pipe is installed to accommodate drainage from
her property to replace the existing ditch that runs across this site that serves that
purpose. Staff is recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report. Staff will
stand for any questions.
Holland: Commissioners, any questions for staff? With that can we get the applicant to
come forward.
McKay: Thank you, Madam Chairman, Members of the Commission. I'm Becky McKay
with Engineering Solutions. Welcome new members. Just to kind of give you a history.
Oh. Address 1029 North Rosario, Meridian. I have been a planner in the -- in the
Treasure Valley for 30 years now, so I have been around through many administrations,
many planning and zoning commissions. Meridian is definitely my favorite jurisdiction. I
have done more projects here than just about anybody and it's always a pleasure to come
and -- and be before you and help the city build the best communities that we can. So --
so appreciate you giving your time and your effort to -- to this goal of making Meridian a
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 17 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 15 of 35
better place to live and welcome. I have a PowerPoint here. So, the subject property
that we are talking about is Graycliff Estates, as Sonya indicated. The property is
approximately 42 and a half acres. It lies right here. You can see it there. This is State
Highway 69. This is Harris Street right here. And Harris Street is the half mile -- mid mile
collector. It is intended that this will be a signalized intersection. Then there is Biltmore
Estates that's located here, which is also my client's Star Development. And, then, this
is a collector roadway that we built through Biltmore. It goes on out through Kentucky
Ridge and down to Victory Road. So, let me switch to the next one. This kind of gives
you an idea of what's around us. There is Meridian Heights Subdivision. That was
developed in the 70s and the '80s. This particular subdivision was not connected to
central sewer, but had sewer lagoons and had a community well system. Kentucky Ridge
was constructed and they were placed on that community system. Mr. Centers and
myself worked with the city and their staff and the Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge
people for two years to work out an arrangement, so that Mr. Centers could take those
ponds offline, connect them to the city central sewer in Victory, and connect them to the
central water system. They had two wells in Meridian Heights. Both of them had high
levels of arsenic that did not meet the current DEQ requirements. So, it was important
that they get central services. The problem that was encountered with them is they did
not have the funds to pay for all of the water and sewer hookup fees. So, my client Star
Development paid all of the sewer hookup fees for this development in Meridian Heights
and Kentucky Ridge, so that they could connect to the City of Meridian sewer, which was
a great endeavor and at a significant cost. That obviously allowed us to bring the sewer
and the water up through the property just to the north of us in Biltmore Estates and we
brought the sewer in and we platted this Biltmore here and these lots range from like
8,500 to 20,000 square feet. Then Mr. Centers also owns Brundage Estates, which is
located here. Those were also larger lots. When we brought in Graycliff he had acquired
that from another developer and we -- the sewer comes up through Kentucky Ridge. One
of the things that the city came to us and they said we need a well in this section. It's
integral that we get a well. Mr. Centers provided a 99 year lease. When we plat this lot
here Well 32 will be deeded to the city. That well is online. The city brought a 12 inch
water main up Meridian Road and down Harris Street and, then, connected to the new
well. The other thing that was part of the Comprehensive Plan was a neighborhood park
was designated in this section. So, what we decided to do is through the three
developments that Mr. Centers owned, that we would contribute different portions of the
project to make a neighborhood park and so that's what you see right here in this middle
area. Now, when we initially did Graycliff that was 2015. 2015 was a whole different
animal as far as cost. Cost for materials. Cost for construction. Cost for engineering.
We had some smaller lots in here than we had in Biltmore and Brundage Estates, but as
costs have escalated Mr. Centers became very concerned about the fact that the costs
were exceeding the ability of a lot of the buyers as far as to build within or purchase within
his community. So, we brought Graycliff back through, as Sonya indicated. We added
about 15 lots, brought it back through the process, and, then, prices jumped dramatically
and so he came back to us and said, you know, we have got to do something to help
these young couples with young families be able to afford a good quality custom home
and so we came up with this particular design and like Sonya indicated, this is medium
density residential, which is three to eight dwelling units per acre for the single family
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 18 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 16 of 35
portion. This portion up here is R-40, high density residential. And another thing that
kind of changed the -- the character of this area is the Stapleton Subdivision came in just
to the east of us and this was intended to be a mixed use development. It was going to
be primarily highway commercial. They were going to have kind of a multi-use -- or a
multi-family component. That just didn't -- it never materialized and so, then, it was sold
and they came in with an R-15 zoning and they -- their density was -- I think it was 6.73
dwelling units per acre. They had lots at 3,200 square feet, with an average lot size of
4,200. So, that made Mr. Centers -- and he said, you know, my word, you know, we
started out with homes and lots and home prices in the 350,000 dollar range and in just
over a handful of years, over the past four years he said the home -- a home that we built
for 350 is now 700 and so we are seeing that --that we have got to do something different
based on the amount of land that he has, the 300 plus acres, he said we have got to have
a little better diversity. So, that's why we are here this evening to, obviously, provide
diversity. We still have a preliminary plat that is in effect, but we met with the staff and
we talked to them and they said, you know, we see where you are coming from and so
we initially have approval for 136 single family lots and we are asking for approval of 200
lots total. We are leaving the multi-family. That will have to come back in as a conditional
use, so we are not asking for any approvals on that, we just show that as two multi-family
lots. One of the things I told Mr. Centers is I said, well, you know, if you are -- if you are
going to increase your density, which was 3.23 dwelling units per acre, where we are
allowed four to eight, I said you need to beef up your amenities. You need to beef up
your open space. Because if we are going to increase the number of residents within this
community we need to provide amenities for them. So, one of the things that we have
within this project that has always been a part of the project is this is a multi-use pathway
that's shown in your pathway plan with the Parks Department. That's a ten foot multi-use
pathway, runs through there. The Williams pipeline is under it. It's 75 feet wide. We will
install that path and grass along with it. Any trees that are required along that pathway
we will have to plant into the neighborhood park. I think we had a significant--a significant
amount of multi-use pathway throughout the whole project. It runs for probably three
quarters of a mile. In the project we also decided we are going to have a central open
space here with a pool facility playground. Since it is on a corner lot with a flanking street
and a frontage street, we are agreeing to put wrought iron around that park, so that when
the kids are playing, if a two year old takes off they can't run out into the street. We also
have open space along the collector of Harris Street, which will eventually lead out and
connect to Linder. So, this whole section will have a north-south collector that will go --
that goes Kentucky Way, that comes in and T's into Harris. Then Harris will go out to
Linder and, then, we have a southern collector called Oak Briar that will go on and head
down to Amity. So, this particular section will have a continuous collector system as
shown in the master street map and as shown in your transportation plan. We have
micropaths within the project that lead, obviously, to shortcuts over to our primary
amenities. My plan was to have some benches put along the pathway so people could
rest and kind of -- as they walk their dogs or as they jog. I think that's -- that's -- we got
another pedestrian pathway located here. This was the previous plan that we had. So,
looking at it there is not a heck of a lot of difference, other than we ended up internalizing
and putting that -- that central amenity within the project here. You can see the portion
of this project that will be part of the neighborhood park. We did take a concept plan to
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 19 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 17 of 35
your parks commission back in 2018. The parks commission looked at our pathway
networks. This is an extension of that multi-use pathway. You can see it comes through
the park and, then, we will drop down and run along that Williams pipeline going out to
Meridian Road. The parks commission liked this concept. They gave us a couple of
different examples on how they like this concept to -- to be laid out. We showed them
how many ball fields could be placed in here and my client indicated to the parks
commission he did make a commitment I will install sprinklers as per your standards. I
will go ahead and I will hydroseed it. I will green it up. I will maintain it until such time as
the Parks Department takes over ownership of the development or of the park. Sorry.
So, the parks commission said they were in favor of it. We have not entered into an
agreement with them, because, obviously, this is kind of a component park that we will
be working on doing sections of it as we progress forward. This just is the preliminary
plat. This kind of just shows you the street network, the collector roadways -- as I said,
Harris, Oak Briar. We have got interconnectivity that will go into Stapleton for secondary
access. I did read the comment from Joe Bongiorno, the fire marshal. We have Station
No. 6 that is under construction right now at Overland Road, just west of Linder. On their
website it says they hope to be operational within '20 -- or March of 2020. So, right now
this property would be served by -- I think it's Station No. 4, which is located at Eagle just
north of Victory. But the response times will be decreased significantly once that
Overland-Linder station comes online and we have not designed this project, so there will
be a lag time between when houses go up, so that station should be online. This is the
pool. Kind of a --just a rendering of what it would look like. We also have a photograph
of a similar pool facility. So, we are going to take the -- the best features of both. There
will be changing rooms. Restrooms. A gathering place for the residents. And, like I said,
we will fence it with wrought iron fence around the perimeter of that open space and, then,
there will also be a playground. These are some of the home elevations. L2 will be
building in here. They are custom builders. They have come up with a whole line of
different homes. This one you can see is kind of a more modern with a three car garage.
This one also has a three car garage and an RV bay. These will fit on some of the larger
lots that we have. Here you can see a two car more modern type style dwelling unit that
will fit on these lots. As Sonya indicated, our lots are a minimum of 4,200 square foot,
with an average of 4,692, and our -- our density is still well within the parameters of that
medium density at 4.89 dwelling units per acre. Here is another two story with a two car
garage. And, then, this is -- this is another three car. We feel that, obviously, we have a
--we have a good project here. We will be building 1,720 linear feet of multi-use pathway.
We will be donating parkland and we will be, obviously, doing our part to make this a
community that others can benefit from. Do you have any questions? Oh. And Cody will
come after me. He will have his three minutes. Sorry, Cody. He has a PowerPoint. He
is their -- their operations and sales expert and I wanted him to talk to you about the
buyers that they are seeing and why we need to change this product -- this project at this
juncture.
Holland: Thanks, Becky. I do have a couple questions and, then, we will open it up to
see if Commission has any other questions for you, too. So, I know Fire had some
concerns about response times initially, but also about there is just being one access off
of Harris initially and they had made a comment about being limited to a certain number
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 20 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 18 of 35
of lots until there is a secondary access. Can you just talk to us a little bit about timing of
the development and phasing and what your expectations are there and how that would
lay out?
McKay: Yes. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. I have -- I have talked to Joe.
He did comment in our pre-application conference about we have -- we have, obviously,
an access here to Oak Briar. The second access here to Harris. However, based on the
International Fire Code they require a secondary access that is half the diagonal distance
of the property. So, what we will do is we will build a secondary access that Stapleton as
a condition of approval that they will make a connection to us along this boundary and we
will build a secondary access to them. If their secondary access is not available, then,
we will go ahead and build another secondary access that comes out to Harris and, then,
we have Kentucky Ridge coming in. So, Harris is not the only ingress and egress into the
project. Kentucky Way goes down to Victory.
Holland: Thank you, Becky.
McKay: Oh. And he wants a -- what is it, an AED at the pool facility. That was one thing
he did ask for.
Holland: All right. On the phasing, I know you had a map up there that showed what the
phasing would look like for the project and how it would develop out. When would the
greenbelt pathway and the park system be created in that?
McKay: Madam Chair, the first phase was going to be kind of in this area here. We,
obviously, have to create, you know, kind of a loop system and I indicated to my client
that the city prefers that the central amenities be built either with the first or the second
phase at the latest. He said that was fine with him. As far as the greenbelt, we were
going to build that -- I think with the multi-family. That was what we were talking about.
So, we could make those interconnections. That was what was discussed. As far as the
parks, when we proceed forward with this, then, we will get with Elroy and proceed to get
an agreement -- a parks agreement in place to specify the timing. What the parks
commission told us when we went before them in 2018 that their focus was going to be
on the Regional Park just south of Amity and all of their dollars were going to be allocated
to that park and getting it online, because they needed another regional park desperately
in southern Meridian and so we agreed -- that's why Mr. Centers agreed to, you know,
obviously, you know, donate the land and install some of these improvements, green it
up, get it so it's usable as quickly as possible, but I think we are kind of -- we are kind of
market driven, you know, as far as how fast we progress and -- and affordability is exactly
what we are trying to provide here.
Holland: Any indication you can give us on how long it would be before the multi-family
component would come forward?
McKay: My recommendation to Mr. Centers was not to wait until the project is built out,
because that happened at Lochsa Falls that I did with the Selway Apartments. It's
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 21 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 19 of 35
happened with other projects. When you build the multi-family last, when that conditional
use comes through, even though it's in the development agreement, even though this is
approved for 224 multi-family units, everybody claims they didn't know it was going to
happen and you guys have standing room only. So, my recommendation to Mr. Centers
was don't put that off until the end. Obviously, we need to get that signal built at Harris
Street. We have already constructed a turn lane in Meridian Road, which is a southbound
turn lane into Harris. We also widened the Harris intersection. We couldn't do anymore
until Stapleton comes through and they build their side of Harris. So, then, we can get a
full build out. We also worked with Ada County Highway District to --we ran the backbone
of their fiber optic from Amity to Harris and all the way down to Victory for the future signal
and in the Ada County Highway District report they have us participating in our
proportionate share of that signal. So, we have to trust fund with the first phase for our
proportionate share of the signal. So does Stapleton. So does Cavanaugh Ridge across
on the east side. They want to get that signal in when it meets that warrant. Right now
there is a little over 500 trips on Harris per day. So, we can't install them until it meets
the warrants. But that is a priority that we get that and we get that done and as soon as
that trigger point is hit on the trips, then, ACHD will have those monies and, then, whoever
triggers it will install it and they can tap those funds.
Holland: Thank you. That's all I have, but other questions from Commissioners?
McCarvel: Madam Chair?
Holland: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: Becky, can you tell me -- I know the high density is not under our consideration
tonight, but just -- can you tell me are they intending to use the same amenities, since
you have got the interconnectivity there or are they going to have their own set of
amenities?
McKay: Madam Chair, Commissioner McCarvel, no, they will have their own amenities.
That's what you see right here.
McCarvel: That's what I thought.
McKay: They would have their -- their own clubhouse, their own pool facility. In addition
to the subdivision requirements for a minimum of ten percent, we have 17 percent. They
will have to have, based on their square footage, anywhere from 250 to 350 square feet
of open space beyond that open space requirement for the subdivision to accommodate
the multi-family.
Holland: Any other questions from the Commission?
Pitzer: Madam Chair?
Holland: Commissioner Pitzer.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 22 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 20 of 35
Pitzer: Yes. I was wondering how do you address the south side with the six foot fence?
McKay: Thank you. Madam Chair, Commissioner --
Pitzer: Pitzer.
McKay: Okay. I got it. Yes, I have met with Victoria Laidlaw and talked to her on the
phone on a couple of occasions and we are in agreement to install fencing along the
southern boundary. We also -- the Sundell Lateral traversed her property. It comes in
right here and, then, it arcs through our property and so we worked with Victoria and we
piped the Sundell Lateral on her property and so it has now been piped with a 36 inch all
the way up to the north.
Pitzer: Thank you.
McKay: And Victoria -- one of her comments was she wanted a playground in the middle
of the project, so we do have a playground and play equipment.
Holland: Commissioner Seal, did you have a question?
Seal: I do. There is -- when I was reading through the ACHD report the Oak Briar where
they look a 40 foot or a ten foot right of way, that looks like it's going to pinch right into
where you have some landscaping and trees and things like that. Is there anything that
can be done to help with that, so that doesn't just disappear? I mean I -- if I were living
here and I had trees, obviously, on the west side and all of a sudden they are chopped
down, that changes the dynamic of my backyard.
McKay: Madam Chairman, Commissioner Seal, I -- I did talk with Paige over at Ada
County Highway District and she basically drew that diagram the opposite of what it's
supposed to be. So, what the -- the Sundell comes in right here and we -- we piped it in
that landscaped area just -- and we made it wider so we didn't have any trees over the
landscaped area. Then we allocated ten feet of right of way. So, what happens with Oak
Briar is it comes in and, then, it angles down, it does not take out the landscaping and the
other 40 feet is on the other side. So, there is 50 feet of right of way. You can kind of
see it here and, then, it's going to come down -- see how the Sundell comes in here. So,
we picked it up -- whoa.
Seal: I can really see it now.
McKay: We -- yeah. We picked it up right here. So, what I told ACHD for this collector,
it's going to have to go on the far side of the Sundell on the west side to go down to Amity.
So, it's going to kind of veer to the west a little bit, but --
Seal: Okay.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 23 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 21 of 35
McKay: -- still close to that half mile alignment and so I explained that to Paige that she
had reversed that and she said sorry and I have a meeting with her tomorrow to show her
what I'm talking about, because she wasn't quite tracking over the phone. So, I have a
meeting with them at 1:00 tomorrow.
Seal: That makes sense. Question for the -- right now there is single access for water.
That was one of the concerns that was listed in there. Generally there is going to be, you
know, redundant hookups that are in there and the reason I'm asking that question is
because of the concerns from the Fire Department as far as access coming in, response
and timing, even when the -- the Overland station comes online, so --
McKay: Madam Chairman, Commissioner Seal, there is a 12 inch water main that comes
in down Harris Street. We are in the upper pressure zone five. Below us, at the lower
elevation, is pressure zone four. So, the city took -- they went down Amity and they took
from -- connected to a well at Amity, brought it down Amity, then, they brought it up
Meridian Road and, then, they brought it down Harris, because the Meridian Heights --
they could not get the minimum fire flow without doing that. Then we hooked into the 12
inch in Victory and brought it up through the Hansen property -- so, if I pop -- let's see.
So, there was -- there was a 12 inch in Victory and we brought it up through the Hansen
property and brought it over and up to Harris. Then there is a second feed that comes
down Meridian Road and comes down Harris that we have connected to that 12 inch. So,
there are two -- there are two accesses. There is a pressure relief valve, a PRV, because
this is the lower zone four and, then, we have the well that's online. The master water
model shows that in Oak -- what was it? Oak --
Seal: Oak Briar.
McKay: -- Briar. In Oak Briar there will be a 12 inch that comes down and, then, connects
to Amity. So, that is the -- that is the other connection and, then, there will be a fourth
connection, because there is a 12 inch water main in Linder that, then, there is -- will be
a PRV and there will be a connection there and I think the city was going to take that 12
all the way around the horn here. So, we have multiple opportunities for water. But the
big thing is that Well 32 is online and --
Seal: Okay.
McKay: -- we made sure, because we could -- we could only develop a certain number
of homes in our first and second phase in pressure zone four. Pressure zone five had to
come online and it needed another well.
Seal: Madam Chair, a follow on question to that. Harris Street as it goes through to
Linder, when will that be completed?
McKay: The highway district -- obviously, we are going to be taking it right here to the
mid mile with Graycliff and, then, in Brundage Estates we would take it over to Linder.
Now, the sewer for Brundage is not the same as Graycliff. It comes in down Linder. So,
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 24 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 22 of 35
the thought was we would connect -- we would start from the west and work our way to
the east to interconnect the two. ACHD did not -- they -- they placed a condition on me.
They did not want this interconnection until the signal goes in, because they didn't want
to create a situation where it was exceeding the capacity of this intersection. Secondly,
there is a capacity issue at Victory and Linder as far as this intersection, because there
are three homes that are right there on that -- right at the intersection that will most likely
have to be purchased for them to expand the intersection. So, in our extensive -- we
have had multiple traffic studies on Brundage, Biltmore, Graycliff. We have updated our
studies. ACHD has trigger points based on the number of lots where, then, they have us
update our traffic study and evaluate if we need to build more of Harris or if we need to
install the signal. So, they are -- on these larger projects they are -- they -- they have
stages where they have us relook at what is -- where are the volumes on the background
traffic and where are we in our development and so we can keep up with our
improvements as we progress through these -- these larger projects.
Seal: Well -- and the reason I asked about the Harris Street, extending that out to Linder,
partially is for the response time for the Fire Department, because the Fire Department's
going to be on the corner of Linder. So, instead of having to come all the way over to --
McKay: Correct.
Seal: -- to the highway, that would improve the --
McKay: So, it would have to come -- you're right. You're right, sir. They come down they come down Linder, they come down Victory and the quickest way in would be
Kentucky Way. So, there is a collector Kentucky Way right here. Right at the mid mile.
It would come right to us. So, they would come here, come over, up Kentucky Way and
this -- Kentucky Way is constructed all the way to Harris.
Seal: Okay. But there is no timing on that -- I mean it sounds like the timing of the light
is driven by rooftops or car trips and that is also going to drive when the Harris Street is
going to finish extension out to Linder Road. So, really, there is -- I mean it's -- when you
speak with ACHD can you maybe find out what that would be? I just have concerns over
the -- what the Fire Department is concerned with and I want to make sure we are
supporting them in the --
McKay: Yeah.
Seal: -- you know, making it safe for everybody, because if -- if the fastest way in there
is through two different subdivisions on a subdivision street, that -- that makes -- that
makes me pause for concern, because if that's my house burning down in there with my
family at risk, I definitely don't want the Fire Department to have to take that route.
McKay: I think based on their scoring right now with the Station No. 4 here at 78 percent
and they said their preferred was 80. So, we are at two percent. So, by the time these
-- these homes are built and the new station comes online we will be well with -- within
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 25 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 23 of 35
their preferred response time, even with Kentucky Way. It is a collector roadway. It is
intended to bring traffic up from Victory up to the center of this section to Harris. So, it's
not like they will be meandering through a circuitous route, it's -- it's a pretty straight shot
right-- you can see Kentucky Way. Come straight --wow. Dang it. Sorry. Come straight
up right to there.
Holland: Any other follow up questions? Commissioner Seal? Any other
Commissioners? Commissioner Grove.
Grove: Madam Chair. Becky, you mentioned the -- there was going to be a housing
diversity because of the increased number of houses from the initial --or from 2018. What
is the -- what is your intended price point for -- for that?
McKay: I think I will leave that up to Cody.
Seal: Okay.
McKay: He is the specialist and that's why I wanted you to hear from him this evening,
because he can, obviously, tell you what's happening out there in the field with these
buyers and what the price point is going to be. So, I will leave that up to him if you don't
mind.
Seal: Thank you.
McKay: Thank you.
Holland: Any last follow-up questions? I think we can let Becky sit down.
Pitzer: Madam Chair?
Holland: Oh. We might have one more for you. Commissioner Pitzer.
Pitzer: Sorry. Thank you. So, the collector road that you have going through Kentucky,
how wide is that street? You're saying it's a connector.
McKay: This collector street here, Kentucky Way -- we built Kentucky Way at a 36 back
to back. That is a collector width. Thirty-six feet from back of curb to back of curb.
Pitzer: Do you have any front facing homes on those roads?
McKay: I do not. I do not.
Pitzer: Thank you.
McKay: There are --there are a couple in -- there is just a handful in Kentucky Ridge, but
I have no front-on housing. So, I have -- I have a 36 back to back and, then, I have 20
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 26 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 24 of 35
foot landscaping and detached sidewalks. And in the Graycliff project we have all
detached sidewalks with an eight foot landscape strip. So, we have -- pedestrians will be
-- will be separated from the curb safely away from the roadway network.
Pitzer: And Graycliff -- Graycliff has what size --
McKay: Thirty-three foot from back of curb to back of curb. That is Ada County Highway
District standard street section for a local residential street.
Pitzer: Thank you very much.
Holland: Thank you, Becky.
McKay: Thank you.
Holland: Madam Clerk, do we have folks signed in to testify?
Weatherly: Madam Chair, I believe the gentlemen that Becky was with would like to
speak. But, otherwise, we don't have any signed up.
Holland: Sir, if you want to come forward and put your name and address on the record
we would appreciate it.
Stoeger: Hello. Good evening. My name is Cody Stoeger. Address 1157 La Reata,
Middleton. Get my PowerPoint pulled up, so -- no problem. So, I'm representing L2
Construction, which is the builder for Graycliff Estates. I want to provide a little bit of
context for everything that Becky just presented in her presentation and why we are kind
of moving from a -- from our current approved designation to a smaller lot designation.
So, I wanted to provide a little bit of market statistics, maybe some things that you guys
haven't heard or thought about and kind of the reason we are moving in that direction. I
will give you the CliffsNotes version, because I know I don't have long. First of all, we are
L2 Construction. Second generation Treasure Valley. Developer builder team. We are
all Treasure Valley natives and residents. We care about what happens in this valley and
I think that shows. We are committed to building beautiful, solid homes to meet the needs
of our growing community. So, these are some interesting statistics that I wanted to bring
-- bring to you guys so you can kind of see why we are doing what we are doing. Meridian,
Idaho, median household income right now is 68,131. You can go to any lender, you can
go to any website and they will tell you this is how much -- this is how much mortgage
you can afford at that income and the scary part about that is right now the median sales
price is up close to 400,000. This fluctuates every month. Last month it was over 430.
So, this fluctuates quite a bit. This is driven by -- by one main factor and that's the
inventory. We are low on inventory all the time, just because we have a massive influx
of people moving here and that's what's driving the low inventory. Therefore, shooting
the price up really high. So, this --this is another interesting statistic. This was a Housing
and Urban Development Study that they did last year. Basically they are just telling us,
hey, you guys need more homes. You need more single family homes and you need
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 27 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 25 of 35
more apartments. You need more homes in order to keep up with the influx of people
that are coming here. So, they recommend by the end of 2020 we need 15,050 new
homes. Another interesting statistic. Boise University once a year puts on an Idaho Policy
Institute Treasure Valley survey where the Treasure Valley -- they interview Treasure
Valley residents about transportation, housing, and taxes. Two biggest takeaways from
that were 67.5 percent of respondents were very concerned about the increased cost of
living associated with the growth in the Treasure Valley. That's no secret to any of us.
The other one that I found pretty alarming -- the majority of people -- 66 percent do not
believe that they would be able to find comparable housing that they could afford if they
had to leave their current housing. That means people are feeling that pressure of the
growth and we don't want that. So, my role is community completion. I'm from contract
to contract. It's myjob to hold an open house five days a week. I interact with prospective
buyers. I qualify the clients. And my most important role is I build buyer profiles. I tell
the developer exactly who is coming into visit. And so with that the needs are pretty
simple. We need more affordable housing. How are we going to get that? We are going
to get that with more inventory. That's what we are trying to do. And to address your
question, Commissioner Grove, we are shooting for the 320 to 400 starting price range.
It looks like I'm out of time.
Holland: I will give you another minute to wrap up.
Stoeger: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Holland: You're fine.
Stoeger: Thank you very much. So, overall our goal is quality, safe, and thoughtfully
designed communities offer more options for a larger percent of our residents here in
Meridian. The fact of the matter is people just can't afford new homes. We want to give
them that option. It's our -- it's our opportunity to -- to provide them with more affordably
here in Meridian and they want local and affordable. People come to us because we are
local. They know we are local and they know we don't build a thousand homes a year.
So, they come to us because we are local. We are trying to -- to key on this one right
here. We are trying to become a little bit more affordable. We want thoughtfully designed
communities. We are not just going to throw them together. We care about this city. We
care about this project. Unique modern designs. You saw the mockups in Becky's
presentation. We don't want cookie cutter-- cookie cutter neighborhoods. You get in that
three to four hundred price range -- frankly, they all look the same. We are trying to mix
things up a little bit. And southwest Meridian is, obviously, booming and people want to
be out there. The proximity is a big deal. Still quiet out there. It's still nice and so we are
trying to get more people out that way. And, then, I will just read this really quick if I may.
This is our Meridian mission. We grew up here. We live here. Our -- as our hometown
grows we are dedicated to maintaining what makes Meridian so special and that's the
community. It's the sense of community that keeps us dedicated to providing a unique
home building experience for the families we serve. On this endeavor we will always
remember that new homes are our profession, but forging relationships along the way is
our passion. We care about our clients. We care about their homes. We will strive to
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 28 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 26 of 35
build communities that meet the needs of and reflect the values and diversity of this great
city. So, overall we want to meet the needs of the city and we want to do that affordably,
if you will. And, then, at the end I just included some homeowner testimonials here,
because we are kind of -- the kind of people we are. What kind of product we produce.
And just kind of show us how much we care about it. Any questions?
Holland: Any questions for the Commission? Thank you, sir.
Stoeger: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Holland: It looks like we may have somebody else signing up in the back, but is there
anyone else in the room that would like to testify on this application or put your comments
in? I'm not sure -- are you signing up in the back to say a few words? If you wouldn't
mind coming up to the mic and saying your name and address for the record we would
be happy to hear a few comments from you.
Bronson. My name is Monica Bronson. 389 West Bloomington, Meridian. I just wanted
to express my concern about the Harris Road access. I own a few properties in Meridian
Heights. I own a house in Kentucky Ridge and Harris Road has fence from Meridian
Road up to past Bloomington. Just three streets that were originally part of all the
Meridian Height in one, two, or three versions or sections of it. It has front facing houses
on Meridian Road. I don't know what the projection is for the width of Meridian Road, if
they are going to do like a -- another road called Harris Road and have a separate road
for the residents that are front facing. Right now it's very narrow and it's a death trap
trying to get onto Meridian Road. So, my concern is if they are going to put a light in
think the sooner the better, because there is -- with the L2 housing division -- subdivision
that's gone through at L2 Builders up above and, then, the rest of this Graycliffs, plus the
Stapleton, the amount of traffic on Harris Road is going to be tremendous and I just am
really concerned about the safety and the people -- the people who have front facing
houses, they park their cars on Harris Road. So, I don't -- I wasn't sure if you were aware
of that. But I think it's something to consider on the width of what the proposed Harris
Road would be when they are finished and would like to see if that could be put in.
Holland: Thank you. Any questions? Appreciate your comments.
Bronson: Thank you.
Holland: Thank you very much. Anyone else like to testify? With that I will have Becky
-- if you have anymore words you would like to say.
McKay: I will quick, Madam Chair, Commission. Becky McKay. Engineering Solutions.
There are -- there are a few homes in Kentucky Ridge that do front on Harris. Even
though it was designated a collector in those days they still allowed some front-on
housing. I did a design for the property that became the Stapleton Subdivision and in my
design I shifted Harris a little bit to the south and, then, created a median, so that those
properties could back out easily and, then, they had curb cuts where they could come
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 29 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 27 of 35
back out onto Harris Street. I did the same thing off of -- I think it was Duncan Lane and
State Street, if you ever drive down State and you can see those houses and they kind of
have like a private drive, they back into it, then, they go out onto Duncan. That's how I
had it designed. Now, when Stapleton came through I didn't do that project, so they are
required to widen that out. I -- I recommended to ACHD that, you know, they maintain
that design, because I thought it would be -- it would work and protect those existing
homes, but I don't believe that's what ACHD approved with Stapleton. So, we don't
control that eastern portion of Harris. ACHD is, obviously, going to have to work with that
developer to create a -- there is plenty of right of way to do that, but they are going to
have to work with them to create a safe situation, so that those people can easily back
out.
Holland: Becky, do you know how many front facing homes are on Harris off chance?
McKay: My recollection was there were -- I thought there were around six and there are
--the two that were right at the intersection were the ones that I saw the most problematic,
because of stalking and so that's why I thought, you know, creating a-- kind of a protected
private drive with a median and, then, shifting to the south made sense.
Holland: Any other questions for Becky at this time? Silence. I think you get to sit down.
McKay: Thank you.
Holland: Thanks, Becky. With that can I get a motion to close the public hearing for
Graycliff Estates, H-2019-0129?
Seal: So moved.
McCarvel: Second.
Holland: I have got a motion and a second. All in favor.
MOTION CARRIED: SIX AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Holland: Commissioners, your thoughts, please. Who wants to go first?
Seal: Madam Chair, I will start off with -- with what I really like about the -- the plans and
everything that it seems to be well thought out. I like the fact that there is a -- there is a
lot of walking paths and interconnectivity to it. The main walking path that -- the large
walking path that's going to go in there is going to be great attention to -- I mean any
subdivision to have that would be nice. The fact that there is going to be a -- you know,
essentially, a park extension to it is -- is really nice. I like the fact that the -- you know,
they put the forethought into that to have a -- kind of collection in the middle where -- of
property that could be donated to the city if need be or just be open to, you know, the
residents in this area to be able to use for whatever park experiences they may want to
have. The upgraded clubhouse is really nice as well. I mean the reality -- living in our
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 30 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 28 of 35
areas, in order to get more affordability we are probably going to have to see a lot more
of this condensed structure that's -- that's coming in. I have children that are out looking
for houses right now that are -- you know, they are more than likely going to move out of
the area, because the affordability just simply isn't there in Meridian anymore. So, that to
me is -- you know, that's kind of sad to me as a parent, but at the same time I also live in
a house whose value has doubled in the last five years. So, you know, it goes both ways
for sure. The biggest concern I have with -- with the property in general is just the access
that's going to be provided for -- for Fire. That to me is -- that's a big concern. There are
a lot of front facing houses -- I just looked at the Google Earth on this and there is about
11 front facing houses off Harris Street as it comes in off of Meridian Road and there is
-- on Kentucky there is also -- there is a small section of it that has front facing houses on
both sides of the road as well. So, I'm just very concerned about that. I mean the
response time -- I think the -- the -- the sequence in which things are going to be built and
the timeline is going to provide for the fire station to be open that's closer, but even with
one being open it's still below the response time that they like to hit. I mean we have
been informed that that's, you know, a nice to have, not a have to have, but in looking at
the rest of the -- you know, the -- looking at the rest of the road structures and the ability
for the Fire Department to respond quickly, I just have a major concern over that. What
would help me with that for sure is to have some kind of timeline from ACHD that says
when Harris is going to come through there. That would make me feel a lot better. But I
mean we are -- we are the City of Meridian and they are Ada County Highway District, so
I don't -- I don't know if there is a way that we can get around that. But, essentially, I
mean it's -- it's a really nice project. I think it's very well thought out. I think it's very well
laid out. I think it makes great use of the space. But I just have big concerns over the
ability for the Fire Department to, you know, provide the services that they need to provide
safely.
Holland: Thank you, Commissioner Seal. I think I will give a couple comments to you
right now, but I know one thing we will need to take into consideration was they asked for
one modification of the staff report for A-10, Section 9, that they wanted to change the
timing of the dedication of the well. I didn't see any big concerns with that. It seemed like
staff was fine with that as well. A couple of thoughts before I go back into any concerns.
I like that there is a regional pathway. I like that there is three neighborhoods contributing
to a bigger park. I think that's always nice when you can do that. I also like the addition
of the pool and clubhouse, because I think that makes a nice amenity for the subdivision.
As a Commission -- they do have an outstanding preliminary plat that was approved for
the hundred and some units -- 136 buildable lots and they are asking for the increase --
two hundred. So, just putting that out there. Also we are not -- we are not considering
the multi-family component of it tonight, we are just considering the overall concept and
that's why they -- they put that in there just to give us a visual, but that will come back
before us with a conditional use permit,just so that you are aware of that, too, before they
could start building on that. One thought I had was looking at the phasing of it, I would
prefer to have the greenbelt pathway constructed before the multi-family goes in,
especially if that's aimed to be the last phase of the project. So, that would be one
consideration I would like to look at. Maybe not that it be required with the first phase,
but maybe before the completion of the last phase of the subdivision, maybe at the end
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 31 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 29 of 35
of the phase two, something like that, I would like to see that amenity in there, so there is
more pathway for people to get around. That was one of my thoughts. I also have some
concerns with the access in and out, that there is just one main access off of Harris and
there is certainly some challenges on Harris that will depend on what the neighboring
subdivision does with Stapleton, when they come in there. There is not much that this
specific property can do to help with that component, because it's not really next to their
right of way, but I don't think ACHD is going to finish out Harris Road until the light's in
and I don't think the light's going to come in until the rooftops come in. So, it's kind of a
chicken and egg situation. So, I hear your concerns, but I'm not sure that there is much
we can do to expedite that process there. Other Commissioners ready to give some
thoughts? Commissioner Pitzer?
Pitzer: First the positives. I mean I really like the design concept, the different style
houses. It's a little modern, you know, not the cookie cutter, all of that, but 1, too, have
the concerns on the Fire, that the fire issues -- the connector road that they have going
in, yeah, it's a 36 wide street, but that's still going through two subdivisions -- two -- two
separate subdivisions and -- and especially in the low point -- portion of this subdivision
that doesn't have any grass, which is a big concern for me. The other point as far as the
front facing homes on Harris Road, you know, I don't see that there is anything that's
going to change that. They already have 136 on there currently and really look at that
before going to 200 and that isn't going to change dramatically as far as those 11 houses
on that road. I agree that the -- that the pathway needs to probably go in before the
apartments, just to make this -- the amenities in for them. Thank you.
Holland: Commissioner Grove, any thoughts?
Grove: Trying to formulate how to say all these.
Holland: I can come back --
Grove: I like the --the thought that's gone into this to address the affordability issues that
-- I know a lot of people my age are -- are struggling with and finding those homes that
either their first or second home to be able to find in the -- in the area. So, I applaud your
efforts to address those concerns. I don't -- I don't see a big difference from a -- from 136
to 200 in terms of like how its laid out and I see the positives. I'm still learning the access
road pieces and all of that, so I'm very interested to hear the rest of the Commission's
thoughts on -- on these things. So, I don't have a lot of input into -- into that aspect. One
thing that Becky mentioned in her response to the builder -- in response to phase four,
the multi-family, I -- I have heard enough of Council meetings and things we are having
that come in so late in the game can be a problem. So, I would encourage you to continue
to press on that aspect of it, so that it is well timed, that -- to lessen some of the negativity
of those builds, because just as affordability is an issue, you know, there is not a lot of
availability for all types of housing at different price points and different styles. So,
encourage you to continue looking at expediting that process.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 32 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 30 of 35
Holland: Commissioner Grove, one note I think was in the staff report, too, is that they
would have to have some signage that says that this is planned for future apartments to
just help with that knowledge and awareness. I believe I saw that somewhere in the staff
report.
Pitzer: Madam Chair?
Holland: Commissioner Pitzer.
Pitzer: Yes. The other thing I was concerned about was the schools. Nobody has
addressed schools. This looks to be like it would be a young neighborhood. They would
have children and I'm kind of concerned. I haven't heard anything about what school --
how this would affect the schools that we have going in.
Holland: Sonya, do you have easy access to remember what -- if the school district sent
in comments on this one?
Seal: They did not.
Holland: They did not?
Seal: That was one of the things that was missing.
Holland: Yeah. And it's tough -- when it comes to the school district, it's tough to limit
development based on -- on what schools are available. A lot of times we like to hear
from the school district of what capacities are available in neighboring schools. We could
certainly ask for more insight to that if we wanted to -- to wait. I was trying to see if there
is anything in there, but -- you say there wasn't anything in there from the schools?
Seal: Madam Chair, there was -- there wasn't anything there from West Ada that I saw.
And that's something that I always look for and, honestly, I'm kind of disappointed that we
haven't had it in the last few projects that are out there. It's almost -- I mean I know that
they are given the ability to respond and they are not responding and, honestly, I would
like to dig deeper into why that is, because to me that's one of the first things -- I look at
the Fire Department, I look at the Police Department, I look at Ada County Highway
District, I look at the school districts. You know, we are kind of at their will sometimes,
but at the same time, you know, we want to be as good and thoughtful to those agencies
as we possibly can. So, you know, I agree it's -- this is -- this is going to be built to be a
young neighborhood, so the schools that -- you know, 200 homes are going to impact --
are going to be a pretty sizable impact on them I would imagine, so --
Pitzer: And bus stops. I'm concerned with bus stops from here and --would be a concern
for me, too.
Holland: Yeah. I know there is no proposed bus stops at this point in the development,
but --
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 33 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 31 of 35
Weatherly: Madam Chair?
Holland: Madam Clerk.
Weatherly: Just for context, Stapleton Subdivision we did receive information from West
Ada School District on that back in November. I can give you numbers for context if you
are interested.
Holland: That would be great.
Weatherly: Mary Mac Elementary had an enrollment of 553 at that time. The capacity of
the school is 566. That's 1.3 miles away. Victory Middle School. The enrollment is 961 .
The capacity is one thousand, 1.5 miles away from Stapleton. Meridian High School.
The enrollment was 2,004 and the capacity was 2,400. Again, that was provided to us
on November 22nd, 2019.
Holland: Thank you, Madam Clerk.
McCarvel: Madam Chair. So, I mean finally something that's slightly under, instead of
grossly over. But I mean the fact that they won't build new schools until the ones are
overcrowded, until those rooftops are in place, and I know most of this was already -- has
been on the books for quite some time. This is -- we are really just talking about the
addition of 70 homes, not --
Holland: Correct.
McCarvel: -- not 200, plus the high density. We have already seen this. I would just
comment -- I mean I do think it's very thoughtful -- it makes me very sad to see the larger
lots going away, but I understand the reason and also having a child just in the last two
weeks has been making offers on homes trying to buy his first home and it is very
disheartening to see, you know, what they are having to go through to get their first homes
and some of the quality that's out there. So, I appreciate -- even though that the lots are
smaller, that there is still going to -- there is still consideration for good quality in
somebody's first home. I appreciate the additional amenities and I would agree that the
pathway -- I would like to see that in a little sooner and I guess -- maybe I didn't hear
things the same way as everybody did, but I thought I heard about what the -- in respect
to the Fire response time -- maybe I heard it differently -- that once the firehouse goes
online on Overland that it will --they will be well within it, which is at the end of next month.
So, I'm not sure -- I mean for us to second guess -- and maybe -- I heard it -- was it -- not
until Harris goes in. It's just -- it's with the addition of that firehouse on Overland at the
end of March they will be way within their desired response time. So, I guess I'm not
having quite the issue with that.
Holland: I'm not having the same heartburn about the --the Fire as much either, because
I think -- I agree that once the new station is online they will have the accessibility. We
could certainly put a condition in there that says we want the applicant to work with the
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 34 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 32 of 35
fire district to make sure that they have got the appropriate access points that would make
them feel comfortable, because I know there was a comment in the staff report about how
many lots they would be limited to until there was a point where there was secondary.
But we could certainly put a note in there endorsing that we want them to work with the
fire district on safety and access. Again, with the school questions that we were talking
about, too, it's -- it's-- it's tough. I think we probably didn't get a comment on this, because
they were already approved prior for the 133 lots and the multi-family component to it, so
it's tough to condition projects based on school numbers, because, as Commissioner
McCarvel stated, they typically will -- they put this into their plan of what developments
are coming forward and once the -- once the schools start reaching their capacities, then,
they start planning for future uses as needed, but it's tough to --
Pitzer: I appreciate that.
Holland: It's the chicken and egg, unfortunately.
Seal: Madam Chair?
Holland: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: Looking at the -- essentially looking at the layout of the -- of the roads and the
Kentucky Way as it comes through, I mean just looking at the -- the trip traffic that's on
the different roads and you have got -- you actually have more trips that are coming
through on Kentucky Way than are coming through on Harris Street, which means that
nobody wants to try and jump out on Meridian Road without a --without a signal out there
and I don't blame them. But I think this is just going to add kind of fuel to the fire where
most people out of this are going to take Kentucky Way up and out. I really -- I mean just
because of the fact of that -- that main road coming in is Harris Street and it doesn't have
a signal and there is no time line behind it, I just have -- I have big reservations about this
just from a safety standpoint and traffic standpoint and -- I mean because as we have all
seen before, I mean as people start to move in and they start to run through the other
subdivisions and that creates safety issues for the -- for the people that are in there and
the kids that are running around in there as well. So, I just -- that Harris Street being so
undeveloped and not having a signal there is causing me major heartburn.
Holland: One more comment just to reiterate, too, that they have -- they have already
been approved for the 133 lots, so there -- there is 136. I'm sorry. Their request is to
move that up to 200. So, we are looking at the difference there that we are looking to
improve tonight -- or recommend approval of. So, I think there -- this development would
go forward regardless. It's just a matter of do we want to give them consideration to let
them do the more affordable price product and blend in a few more products there with
-- with the new amenities that they have proposed as well or do we want to send it to
Council and ask them to stay with the original plat.
McCarvel: Madam Chair?
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 35 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 33 of 35
Holland: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: I would be in support of allowing the 200 lots. That is what's in front of us this
-- this evening. It's all -- the whole game is chicken and egg. I mean you don't get the
stoplight until you have the rooftops there, so -- I mean until the traffic demands it. So,
it's -- it's just what we face all the time with a community that's growing as we are. There
is always construction and there is always more traffic coming.
Holland: I think I would tend to agree with the way that they have laid out the plat, the
additional amenities that they have provided, especially if we condition getting that
greenbelt pathway in a little bit earlier. I don't know if -- Sonya, could you load the -- the
maps that Becky had put up for us that shows what the phasing was proposed to look
like, just so we can get a better context of that. I think it was towards the end. Maybe
not. It was right before the picture, I think, actually. That one right there. It looks like
these three would be the final piece that touches on that greenbelt pathway, but the first
phase and second phase would be the western boundary. I don't know what the
Commissioners thoughts are on where to -- where to put the timing in, but maybe we
could condition that the pathway is put in at the end of phase two, so that way it's ahead
of phase three coming in.
Allen: Madam Chair? If I may, I think -- I think you stated that incorrectly. Phase one is
this piece right here. I'm not sure you -- it's very small print. I doubt you can see it. It
does not include the pathway. Phase two is down here and phase three is right here.
So, phases one and three abut the pathway that's proposed in phase four. Thank you.
Holland: Any other comments, Commissioners? Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: Madam Chair. So, are you -- what's your thought on the pathway? End of
two or three?
Holland: I think it would be my preference to see the pathway come in at the end of phase
two,just so that the pathway could be complete when phase three gets started to be built.
That's my thought.
McCarvel: Are we ready for a motion?
Holland: Certainly. Always ready for a motion. Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: Madam Chair, after considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I
move to recommend approval to City Council of file number H-2019-0140 as presented
in the staff report for the hearing date of February 6th, 2020, with the following
modifications: That the pathway be completed at the end of phase two and in agreement
with staff's agreement on that Section A-10 -- or A-10, Section 9 -- corrections that were
stated by staff.
Holland: One correction to your motion. It's application number 2019-0129.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 36 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 34 of 35
McCarvel: Two nine. Thank you.
Holland: I have got a motion. Do I have a second?
Grove: Second.
Holland: Got a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Did you have another
comment you wanted to make? Okay. The motion as stands is for construction of
pathway at the end of phase two and for the modification as requested by the applicant
for A-10, Section 9, with dedication of the well change to after recording of final plat. All
those in favor --
Pitzer: Madam Chair, are we not going to put anything in about them working with the
fire district as a condition?
Holland: Would you like to modify your -- your motion to put in --
McCarvel: I believe it's in there. I believe it's stated in there that it's going to be fine by
the end of March before this is ever even under construction.
Holland: There are some conditions in the staff report that they have to meet fire
requirements. Does the second still stand?
Grove: Yes.
Holland: Any other discussion?
Seal: We can vote with the --
Holland: Okay. We can take a vote.
Seal: Still have major concerns, so --
Holland: All right. We will take a vote. All those in favor say aye. All those opposed?
Seal: Nay.
Holland: One opposed. Motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE NAY. TWO ABSENT.
Holland: I think I just need one more motion for the night.
McCarvel: Madam Chair?
Holland: Commissioner McCarvel.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 37 of 117
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
February 6,2020
Page 35 of 35
McCarvel: I move we adjourn.
Seal: Second.
Holland: All those in favor? All right. Meeting adjourned. Thank you all.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:47 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
APPROVED
2 1 20 1 20
RYAN FITZGERALD - CHAIRMAN DATE APPROVED
By Lisa Holland, Vice Chair
ATTEST:
CHRIS JOHNSON - CITY CLERK
By Adrienne Weatherly, Deputy City Clerk
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda February 20,2020— Page 38 of 117