2019-12-05Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting December 5, 2019.
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of December 5, 2019, was
called to order at 6:00 p.m. by Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald.
Members Present: Commissioner Rhonda McCarvel, Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald,
Commissioner Lisa Holland, Commissioner Andrew Seal and Commissioner Bill
Cassinelli.
Members Absent: Commissioner Olsen.
Others Present: Adrienne Weatherly, Andrea Pogue, Bill Parsons, Sonya Allen and Dean
Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance
__X____ Lisa Holland _______ Reid Olsen
__X___ Andrew Seal ___X___ Ryan Fitzgerald
__X___ Rhonda McCarvel ___X___ Bill Cassinelli
______ Vacant
Fitzgerald: At this time -- good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time I would like
to call to order the regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning
meeting for the date of December 5th and let's start with roll call.
Item 2: Adoption of Agenda
Fitzgerald: Thank you, Madam Clerk. The first item on the agenda is the adoption of the
agenda. We have one change. If anyone else is here for the Summerset Apartments
application, which is H-2019-0104, they are withdrawing that application, so the applicant
has requested that be withdrawn. So, that won't be heard tonight. So, if you are here for
that we are going to pass on that application tonight, because they are withdrawing it.
With that change, can I get a motion to adopt agenda as amended.
Seal: So moved.
Holland: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as amended for December
5th. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same. Motion passes. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
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Item 3: Consent Agenda [Action Item]
A. Approve Minutes of November 21, 2019 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting
Fitzgerald: The next one on the agenda is the Consent Agenda. We have one item on
the agenda, which is the approval of minutes for the P&Z meeting for November 21st,
2019. With that being said, can I get a motion to adopt the Consent Agenda?
Cassinelli: So moved.
McCarvel: Second.
Seal: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to adopt the Consent Agenda as presented.
All those in favor say aye. Opposed same? Motion passes. Thank you very much.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: Okay. At this time I want to take the opportunity to explain the public hearing
process for this evening. We will open each item, which we have one item on the agenda,
and, then, start with the staff report. They will report their findings and how the item or
the application adheres to our Comprehensive Plan and Uniform Development Code with
the staff's recommendations. After the staff has made their presentation the applicant will
come forward to present their case for the approval of their application and respond to
any staff comments. The applicant will have 15 minutes to do so. After such time the
applicant will -- as they finish we will open for public testimony. Hopefully when you guys
came in there is an iPad in the back to sign up. Make sure if you would like to testify
tonight that your name is on there, so we can keep track of who is testifying. If any
individual is here for an HOA and there is a show of hands, folks who would like to have
the HOA representative speak on their behalf , we will give them ten minutes to present
on behalf of the HOA and is there anyone here from an HOA or representing an HOA
tonight? Just want to make sure. No? Okay. So, after the public has a chance to say
their comments, we will provide the applicant an opportunity to close the discussion and
respond to any questions or requests or comments from the audience and, then, we will
close the public hearing and give the -- the Commission a chance to deliberate on whether
they want to make a recommendation on the application.
Item 4: Action Items
A. Public Hearing for Edington Commons (H-2019-0109) by G20,
LLC, located at 3610 N. Linder Rd.
1. Request: Annexation and Zoning of 14.56 acres of land with
R-15 zoning; and
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2. Request: A Preliminary Plat consisting of 92 building lots, 10
common lots and 4 other lots for common driveways on 13.49
acres of land in an R-15 zoning district.
Fitzgerald: So, with that we will shift and open the public hearing to -- on H-2019-0109,
the Edington Commons application and we will start with the staff report.
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Mr. Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: If I may, before we start, I just want to let my fellow Commissioners know for
the record that I -- earlier today I e-mailed both Planning and Legal, because I had -- I live
near the area and I had noticed that the -- the notice sign has been down and not visible.
In fact, I didn't even -- when I saw it on the agenda I hadn't ever seen a sign and , then, I
noticed it was -- it was laying on its side. So, I -- I just e-mailed that to Planning and to
Legal, but I want to just let you know that I don't -- that that -- that issue will not -- does
not affect -- will not have any effect on my decision, but I wanted to let everybody know
that and put that on public record that I did e-mail.
Fitzgerald: Appreciate that. Thank you. And, Andrea, anything else we need to do to
cover that?
Pogue: No.
Fitzgerald: Okay. Thank you. With that we appreciate your comments and thank you.
Sonya, we will hand it over to you for staff report and go from there.
Allen: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, the application before you is a request for annexation
and zoning and a preliminary plat. This site consists of 13.49 acres of land. It's zoned
RUT in Ada county and is located just north of West Ustick Road on the east side of North
Linder Road at 3610 North Linder Road. Adjacent land use and zoning. To the north is
Sawtooth Middle School, zoned R-4. To the south is vacant undeveloped land
conceptually approved for commercial uses, zoned C-C. That was the Sugarman
property. To the east are rural residential agricultural properties with a home, zoned RUT
in Ada county and to the west is Linder Road and rural residential agricultural property
with a home, zoned RUT in the county and a future storage facility that was recently
approved, zoned C-C. The Comprehensive Plan future land use map designation for this
property is medium density residential, which calls for three to eight dwelling units per
acre. The applicant is requesting annexation and zoning of 14.56 acres of land with an
R-15 zoning district for the development of 92 single family residential attached and
detached units, at a gross density of 6.83 units per acre, consistent with the medium
density residential future land use map designation. A preliminary plat is proposed as
shown that consists of 92 building lots, ten common lots, and four other lots on 13.49
acres of land in the R-15 zoning district. The plat is proposed to develop in two phases.
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Access is proposed via North Linder Road, an arterial street, a stub streets proposed to
the east and south for future extension. Public streets are proposed for internal access.
Some with 27 foot wide street sections and those are -- are reduced from the typical and
only allow parking on one side of the street and that is this entry street right here,
Windswept, and, then, Woodpine Street here in the middle. Four common driveways are
proposed for access to homes off the public streets. A parking exhibit was submitted as
shown that demonstrates the amount of on -street parking available within the
development, due to the reduced 27 foot wide street sections proposed for Windswept
Drive and Woodpine Street, which restricts parking to only one side of the street and
narrow building lots with 20 foot wide driveways, leaving little room for on-street parking.
Parking is a concern for this development. A total of 50 on -street parking spaces are
available for use by residents and guests , as depicted on the plan there. Although the
minimum parking standards for off-street parking are met, staff is concerned the amount
of on-street parking may not be adequate as historically there have been issues with
residents using their garages for storage, rather than parking, and people parking on both
sides of narrow streets where parking is restricted , blocking emergency vehicle access.
If the Commission feels the on-street parking is not adequate, wider street sections that
would allow parking on both sides of the street, wider building lots and/or additional
parking spaces in common areas could be required. They are not curr ently required in
the staff report. A minimum of ten percent qualified open space and one site amenity is
required to be provided for the development. The open space exhibit submitted includes
areas shown is the hatched areas here. It is not qualified towards the minimum
requirements. W ithout these areas the project does not meet the minimum open space
standard. In order for the area along the northern boundary where the Coleman Lateral
is located to qualify as linear open space it would need to have an access at each end
and the entire area would need to be improved and landscaped with at least one
deciduous shade tree per 8,000 square feet and lawn over the entire area. Because this
area is entirely encompassed by an irrigation district easement that this isn't feasible.
They won't allow trees. They may allow the -- the grass through a license agreement.
I'm not sure. But they won't allow trees. Because the parkways -- excuse me -- the
pathways master plan depicts a multi-use pathway in this general area. Staff is
recommending a 20 foot wide common lot is provided along the rear of the building lots
adjacent to the canal outside of the irrigation district 's easement with a ten foot wide
pathway and five feet of landscaping on either side , with a micro path connection to the
pathway near the east side of the development. So, that pathway would -- is envisioned
to be in a 20 foot common lot along the backside of these lots right here and , then, a
micro path approximately in this location right here. This pathway would eventually
extend to the east when the abutting property redevelops to the existing pathway in
Woodburn West, providing a connection to the on-street pathway along Linder Road and
safe pedestrian access to the middle school to the north. Site amenities are proposed in
excess of the minimum required as follows: A children's play structure, swing set, seating
benches, climbing rocks, climbing dome and a micro path. City code requires irrigation
laterals, such as the Coleman Lateral, to be piped if they are not improved as a water
amenity or linear open space. As previously mentioned, the area cannot be counted as
linear open space and it's not being improved as a water amenity per code requirements.
Council may waive the requirement for the ditch to be piped if it finds a public purpose
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requiring such will not be served and public safety can be preserved. Because fencing is
proposed adjacent to the canal, staff feels public safety can be preserved if Council
wishes to approve a waiver. If a 20 foot wide common lot is added in this area for a
pathway as recommended by staff, a fence would need to be constructed between the
pathway and the ditch to preserve public safety. Conceptual building elevations were
submitted as shown for the proposed attached and detached structures. All homes along
the west perimeter of the development adjacent to Linder Road are proposed to be a
single story in height and those are inducted in red here. All the lots indicated in red are
single story. The yellow are two story. Building materials consist of a mix of siding,
horizontal and vertical lap siding, and board and batten, with stone veneer accents.
Colors are very monochromatic. The attached structures are required to comply with the
design standards in the architectural standards manual, which include a requirement for
a cohesive color scheme to be used, featuring a minimum of two field colors, a trim color,
and an accent color or unique material. Garage door colors should coincide with this
scheme or other accents. This is recommended as a DA provision. Staff is
recommending these standards also apply to the D -- excuse me -- detached units for
consistency. To endure homes are constructed with eaves consistent with the proposed
concept building elevations for aesthetic, as well as to keep water away from the walls
and foundation, staff is recommending a DA provision requiring all homes within the
development to be constructed with minimum one foot wide fire rated eaves on all four
sides. At the Commission hearing for the Alpina -- Elpina townhome project previously
proposed on the adjacent mixed use designated property to the south -- but it was later
withdrawn. There was a lot of discussion by the Commission pertaining to their desire for
that property and the subject property to develop uniformly to ensure a true mix and
integration of uses in this area. Because only a stub street is proposed to the adjacent
property and the backside of homes face that property, staff is recommending that the
Commission determine if the proposed development provides an adequate transition to
the mixed use development as desired. Written testimony has been received from
Whitney Montgomery in support of the project and a copy of the letter from Laren Bailey,
Devco, the applicant, to Steven and Andrea Lloyd, the property owners to the east,
agreeing to limit the height of homes to a single story adjacent to their property on Lots
20 and 23 through 26, Block 1. And that's the red ones right here. Staff is recommending
this restriction is included as a provision in the DA per the exhibit shown. Staff is
recommending approval with the requirement of a de velopment agreement per the
provisions in the staff report. Staff recommends the project is continued to a later hearing
date in order to allow time for the applicant to revise the plat , landscape plan, and qualified
open space exhibit per the conditions of approval to ensure the project complies with the
minimum UDC standards prior to the Commission's recommendation to the City Council.
Staff will stand for any questions.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, ma'am. Any questions for staff? Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: I have got two questions. First of all, you talked about the -- the canal and
piping that. It says it's a -- it says Council may waive -- so, that -- that is a Council decision
on that one.
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Allen: That is correct, Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: Okay.
Allen: You may provide a recommendation if you would like, but it is a Council decision.
Cassinelli: Thank you. And the other -- can you -- do you have, off the top of your head,
lot sizes, dimensions for both R-8 and R-15?
Allen: R-8 is 4,000 square feet and -- what's the R-15? Is it 2,000? Two thousand on
the R-15. And there is no minimum street frontage in the R-15 district.
Cassinelli: No minimum?
Allen: No.
Cassinelli: And what's the minimum R --
Allen: And the R-8 is 40 feet.
Cassinelli: Forty feet. Okay. And do you -- well, I guess to piggyback on that. What --
and maybe I could ask the applicant what the -- what their smallest street frontage is,
what they go down to. Do you know?
Allen: I think they may have some below 32 feet, but I think most of them are 32. The
applicant could answer that question for you.
Cassinelli: Okay. And, sorry, one more question if I can.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli, go ahead.
Cassinelli: Is there a -- is there a maximum number of lots that can be accessed off a
private drive?
Allen: Yes. Six.
Cassinelli: Six. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions for staff? No? Commissioner Seal?
Seal: Just one question. The report from the Meridian Fire Department, they want to limit
the first and second phase to 30 dwellings. Is that something that was tak en into
consideration in the staff report?
Allen: Yes. They are limited to 30 building lots on a single access. If they get a secondary
emergency access, then, they can build the rest.
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Cassinelli: Was that something that's going to be part of this build out or -- I'm just -- I'm
not finding it anywhere that that's something that's go ing to be readily available or
available by the time they start the first phase.
Allen: Yeah. I'm not aware of one. The applicant can respond to that.
Fitzgerald: Additional questions? Thank you. Would the applicant like to come forward.
Good evening, sir. How are you guys doing.
Clark: I'm doing great.
Fitzgerald: Please state your name and your address for the record, please.
Clark: Hethe Clark. 251 East Front Street in Boise, representing the applicant. Let's see
here. So, again, this is a -- a project that is a medium density development and a couple
of items that I want to mention right off the top to just kind of get you kind of familiar with
the area and some of the thought process with this. This is 92 building lots and we think
it's in a very appropriate location. It's near Ustick and Linder. As you know there has
been widening in those areas already. There really are no traffic concerns. It is in an
area that's near shopping centers, employment centers, it's a very appropriate location
for this type of development and you may have seen some of these projects in the past
already, so you may know a little bit about it, but it's -- it's high quality, low maintenance
product that comes in at a lower price point than what you would -- would -- might see as
the average currently in Meridian. As Sonya mentioned, we do have an excess of the
required neighborhood amenities. We have the large half acre park , one required amenity
under the code, but we actually have five. The children's play structure. The climbing
dome swings. Climbing rocks and a seating area. That's in addition to the pathways and
sidewalks and, then, the 15 percent open space, which we will talk about here in just a
second, because I think we have a disagreement with Sonya on the terms of that
calculation. As Sonya mentioned, we have made commitments with regard to the product
type and we have made the commitment to do single level in the locations that are
indicated in pink on this -- on this diagram and we are in agreement with that being a
condition of approval. That's -- that is something that we are more than comfortable with.
I want to really emphasize that this is from a -- from a number of perspectives this is a
pretty straight up application. It very clearly satisfies a number of Comprehensive Plan
policies, including the provision of a diversity of housing types in areas that are close to
employment centers, as I mentioned. It is an in-fill project. It's contiguous to services.
This is the kind of thing that we should want to see in this location. The proposed R-15
zoning complies with the land use map designations for medium density and it complies
with all of the R-15 zone dimensional standards. There is no step up that's been
requested with this -- with this project. So, let's get into the details of some of the items
that were raised in the staff report. Some of these became conditions of approval that I
would like to circle back on. Some of them are just points of discussion and that would
include this parking element. So, with regard to parking, the staff report indicates there
may be a concern about parking and whether it's adequate. We do meet code parking
standards with four on-site parking spots for each resident. So, there is a maximum of
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three bedrooms in these houses. So, you are going to -- that means that we are in excess
of code. In addition, we have 50 on-street parking spots that are available. In our opinion
that is very clearly more than adequate for this use. These are small homes . You are
not going to see massive Super Bowl parties. There is just not room for that sort of thing.
And there is no reason to -- we meet the code standards and there is no reason to change
those code standards here. There is not a reason to expand the streets either. The se
streets should remain narrow to calm traffic, to promote walkability, and to reduce public
cost for maintaining these streets. The more pavement you put in the more public costs
there is to maintain and that's an ongoing concern at ACHD. They want to see those
streets as narrow as they can be safely maintained. The next item on that was raised
that I wanted to address was the relocation of the Lot 21 access. So, you can see I have
put a note or an arrow here as to what's being suggested and staff wants to move that
down a little bit further. We disagree with that. We don't see a need to relocate it and
there is a number of reasons why. First, there is no block length issue. There is not a
reason to need to break up that block length and if you move that pathway with this
driveway, you are basically creating a dead end in t hat location. With the pathway there
you open it up. It allows for a tie in from the property to the west end of this -- of this open
space area that I will discuss more in a moment. It also allows for more buffer to our
neighbor to the east and, in fact, our neighbor to the east has requested that that stay
there. So, in our opinion, we think it's more appropriate for that to remain in the location
that it's currently identified, rather than being relocated per staff. Now, with regard to
open space requirements, there is -- staff's raised the question as to whether this area
that you see where we have -- where I have the red arrows qualifies as open space. Here
is the language for qualified open space. Linear open space area that is at least 20 feet
and up to 50 feet, has an access at each end, and is improved and landscaped as set
forth in Subsection E of this section. Subsection E speaks to common open space shall
be suitably improved for its intended use, except that natural features, such as wetlands,
rock outcroppings, ponds, creeks, et cetera, maybe left unimproved. It also says at a
minimum common open space areas shall include one deciduous shade tree per 8 ,000
square feet and lawn, either seed or sod. Now, there is a misunderstanding with regard
to this. There is -- there is an easement in that area for the irrigation district, but it's only
15 feet from center line. What that means is that we do have area within this to be able
to do the -- the landscaping improvements that have been requested here. It's about
32,000 square feet, so that means approximately four trees and to fit them outside of the
-- of the irrigation district easement seems to us to be not -- not a problem at all. And,
again, it will be landscaped per the -- per the code requirements. Now, the next item that
I wanted to address is the pathway question. As -- as of an hour ago we thought we had
this worked out with the Parks Department. That has apparently changed and so before
I describe to you what we are proposing with regard to the regional pathway question , I
do want to give you some context. So, the question is whether we should be required to
include a regional pathway across our project and in what location. City staff is asking us
to allow the general public access across our property, you know, without any justification
based on the needs that our property creates. We weren't previously aware that this
regional pathway was an issue. That has to do with some apparent confusion between
the maps that are on the city's website. At our pre-application meeting the map on the
left is what was presented. This is from the Planning Department's page for bicycle and
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pedestrian resources. You can see the area in the blue there is the Sawtooth Middle
School. There in green is Settlers Park. And you can see the regional pathway ending
at the backside of the Sawtooth Middle School. We recently became aware of a
competing map that is on the Park and Recreation's pathway page. That's shown on the
right. And if you look below it extends past Settlers Park, all the way out to Linder. It's
still not on our property, but staff has insisted that it be put on our plan. So, we have --
since that has -- insistence has been made, we have investigated to see what's actually
out there. So, if you look at this map, you can see you what is existing. The yellow line
is an approximation of where the regional pathways are intended to be based on the --
the maps that I just showed you. The blue lines are micro paths and purple are sidewalk.
All of those micro paths and sidewalk that we can find are five feet wide. There are -- it's
important to note that there are no ten foot paved pathways in the area. We couldn't find
any. Nor is there likely to be any that would connect to our project, because as you can
see the property to the east just passed our property is already built out and there is not
a ten foot pathway that's been reserved in that area to connect to. Now, over the past 48
hours since we received the staff report we have been working on this. We have been
-- we thought we had sorted this out with Kimberly Warren at Parks and this is what we
thought we had an agreement on. Here you can see in -- in blue where we had proposed
the regional pathway to be located. It would be on Windswept Drive on the front side of
these lots. In addition, what we had proposed was to include a looped natural surface
pathway through the open space up top and, yes, we would be asking the Council for a
waiver to allow that to remain open. We have since been informed that that is not -- no
longer the -- the preference of Parks, but this does remain our proposal and let me explain
why. There is no reason for a ten foot pathway when it will not connect to a similar
pathway. We can -- you can see that on the map, that the likelihood of that ever occurring
is, essentially, nil, given that the other properties have already developed. You can also
see that there are already connections on five foot sidewalks all the way from Settlers
Park to Sawtooth Middle School. They don't necessarily coincide with what's shown on
those maps, but those connections are there and, again, they are on five foot pathways.
It's expensive to install a ten foot path. It's expensive to maintain it for an HOA and an
HOA probably won't maintain it if it's just a ten foot path to nowhere. There is no reason
to put a regional trail between the Coleman Lateral and drains on the other side. Placing
the regional trail in front of the lots is better from a security perspective and it provides a
more likely connection to the east and I do want to emphasize that placing a trail like this
in front of the lots is exactly what was done at Movado Estates and it's worked perfectly.
I want to emphasize that we don't have anything against trails. We don't have anything
against -- against pathways. We do them all over the city. We have installed a number
-- a high amount of them. We just want to make sure that it makes sense and we don't
think that what staff has proposed here makes sense. The next thing was a bit of a head
scratcher for me. At the end of the staff report there is a suggestion -- and this has to do
with the -- the color -- the color combination prescription and the requirement of eaves.
Essentially there is a suggestion that there should be what amounts to design review for
this project and -- and -- and individual building codes for this project as a condition of our
DA. Again, the staff report recommends things like cohesive color and the minimum one
foot fire rated eaves on all four sides. We think those requirements are not only
unnecessary, but they are not supported by code. We will be building product that will be
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attractive to buyers in this market. You know, we have a huge investment in this property
to make sure that it's something that people want to buy. We do this all over the city. We
are very successful at it. There is no need for the city to micromanage that process. And
with regard to the eaves, we are proposing to satisfy the building code, not personal
appearance opinions of whomever might be looking at this project. There is no UDC
basis for these requirements and they create an administrative headache for the building
departments, as they will have to be reviewing development agreements each time they
issue building permits and compare those building requirements to the requirements of
code. We think it's unnecessary and we don't think it should be part of this
recommendation. One more item that I know has been an item of concern that -- for this
group and I wanted to address it proactively is the question of schools and school
capacity. There is a letter from the West Ada School District in the -- in your packet. I
want to point out that this data that you have on your screen is the latest figures that we
have from the West Ada School District. This is available on their website. It shows that
overall the -- the school district does have capacity and you can see in some of these the
highlighted points here. We have shown some examples of schools that are under
capacity and sometimes significantly under capacity. As you look at the school district 's
letter, the suggestion that's made is that this project wait until Owyhee High School comes
online and, to be perfectly frank, that's not a problem, because of where we are in the
process. This is, again, annexation and preliminary plat. We still have to come in for a
final plat. We won't have residents until the high school comes online in -- in fall of 2021.
So, we think that that is mitigated. Over enrollment should be addressed through
boundary modifications at the elementary schools and grade schools as you can see
here. And one point that I would point out is that we have reviewed the -- the actual
residents of our -- in our other projects that look just like this one and one of the things
that we have found is that the -- the number of residents with students is actually lower
than typical, because this is typical -- typically empty nesters, singles, small families and
in those reviews we found that most of the students actually are already within the -- within
the district. So, with that I will wrap up. On this slide I have the requested modifications
to the conditions of approval. When I come up for rebuttal I will have another one that
has these all on one -- on one page, but just to point -- to kind of reiterate what we are
asking for, we would ask for a recommendation of approval with deletion of conditions A-
1-C, which is the color scheme requirement. A-1-D, which is the eave requirement. A-
2A and A-3-C. Those are -- those are repetitive of each other. That's the new common
lot. Again, we don't believe that that's required given that the irrigation easement does
not cover the entirety of that rear common lot and we can meet the landscaping
requirements A-2-B and A-3-D, those were the relocation of the pathway on the -- on the
far east of the project and, then, finally, with regard to the regional pathway, we would
suggest a substitute condition and that would be to allow for public access for purposes
of a regional pathway in the location identified on the applicant's 12/5/19 depiction. The
applicant shall confer with the Parks and Recreation Department to identify final width
and dimensions in connection with the hearing before City Council. So, with that that
concludes my presentation. I'm happy to answer any questions.
Fitzgerald: Any questions for the applicant?
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Cassinelli: Sure.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: Hethe, one question on amenities. Your -- you kind of highlighted this is for
empty nesters, yet your amenities are tot lots and -- and playground structures. Can you
give me a reason why?
Clark: Yeah. Mr. Chair, Commissioner Cassinelli, the thought process is to make it a
welcoming location for anyone that we -- there are a list of approved amenities in the City
of Meridian. Many of them are focused on tot lots and that sort of thing. We think it's still
a worthwhile investment in the community, because a lot of times what you might see is
maybe a divorced family and kids coming to visit and looking for the -- those amenities
are helpful there. It may be empty nesters, grandparents and kids taking advantage of
those -- of those amenities as well. So, I understand your question for sure, but we feel
like it's still -- even though the -- the number of kids is generally lower than what you might
see in a typical subdivision, it's still a worthwhile investment.
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair, I had another question.
Fitzgerald: Absolutely. Go ahead.
Cassinelli: What -- given that that's your target market is -- is empty nesters, what -- what
are -- what's going to be the size range of the homes?
Clark: The -- so, the lot ranges are -- the frontage is between -- to answer your question
from before -- between 32 and 40 feet. Square foot sizes -- Laren? Somewhere between
15 to 19 hundred square feet.
Cassinelli: Okay. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: That's, to make sure, a zero lot line and -- and single family; correct?
Clark: That's correct.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: Mr. Chair. Could you share with us a little bit about how many of the homes
would be a detached product versus attached?
Clark: Yeah. Do we have a specific number? Just pull up the -- okay. Mr. Chair,
Commissioner Holland, I just wanted to confirm that. So, most of this single story product
would be attached and that -- so, that in -- those -- those plans would be finalized as we
go forward, but that's what -- that's what we anticipate.
Holland: Thank you. One other question -- follow-up question, Mr. Chair.
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Fitzgerald: Absolutely.
Holland: So, one of the -- the notes that Sonya briefly touched on was -- and I know that
we are -- we are not talking about what we previously looked at with the Alpina townhome
project, but one challenge with the piece that's to the south of this property was that they
didn't quite have enough access block length to allow for commercial on that corner very
easily. Was there any thought to maybe adding a little bit of comm ercial to this
component, instead of doing all single family homes?
Clark: Yeah. Madam Chair -- or Mr. Chair, Commissioner Holland -- I was in front of Ada
county last night and answered a lot of questions with Madam Chair. So, there has been
a lot of thought put to that and the point that Sonya made kind of puts us in a tough -- a
little bit of a tough spot. I know that the city is going through a Comprehensive Plan
amendment process and there has been very clear direction not to be looking for
Comprehensive Plan amendments while that's going on and as you know this entire --
that -- our entire property is comprehensive planned and medium residential. So , that's
one issue that we have to deal with. We have been in conversation s with the owners of
the property to the south and we have looked at possibilities for how to address the -- the
access down there. So, let me show you. We -- we anticipate that their access would
look something like this, that -- and that is something that we discussed with Bill early on,
but, no, we don't feel comfortable asking for a Comprehensive -- which is what it would
take, a Comprehensive Plan amendment to put commercial on the south there given
where the city is and those amendment processes and we anticipate that there can be a
viable commercial use down there and the -- and the neighbor to the south is indicating
no objection to our project.
Fitzgerald: Follow up?
Holland: One more follow up. Sonya, if -- just hypothetically speaking, if this Commission
wanted to see a change there to allow them to do some commercial to kind of float with
that -- that commercial off to the south, could we make a recommendation that Council
might consider waiving the fee for that comp plan change ? Is that something we could
even talk about?
Allen: Chairman, Commissioner Holland, I believe what was discussed before is possibly
doing a bump in the mixed use without an amendment to the future land use map to
enlarge that area to make it more feasible for more of a mixed use development.
Fitzgerald: So, floating it north?
Holland: So, one more follow up to that. If that was something that was allowed and they
were willing to float that regional designation north a little bit, would you be open to
considering alternate ideas to give more connectivity and more room for commercial
development to come on that corner?
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Clark: Commissioner Holland, I think the -- you know, obviously, what we are talking
about there is a whole number of factors that are outside of our control. We don't know,
you know, what the neighbor to the south has indicated it would be interested in
specifically. Are they going to be doing office, combination of residential, how much space
do they need. I think we are looking at this from the factors that we can control and the
factors that we can control our a -- an appropriately dense residential project that
transitions, as one would expect adjacent to a commercially zoned area. So, I would say,
you know, we would be more comfortable remaining with the proposal as we have it right
now.
Holland: That's it for now. Thanks.
Clark: Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: You can see it in my --
Fitzgerald: I can see that you are going for -- the body language.
Cassinelli: You -- Hethe, you mentioned the -- on the canal up there, the lateral on the
north side and that the easement is 15 feet from center line. So , how much does that
give you from the back of the Lots 7 through 22, that -- to the easement in terms of a
width?
Clark: Having our planner come up to give me a little assistance on that . So,
Commissioner Cassinelli, it covers about half of that area. It's about 50 -- 50 to 60 feet
wide, that green space that you see on this map.
Cassinelli: So, I guess my -- what I am trying to understand is where -- where is the --
where would the center line be on that? Is it -- is it the -- the thick blue --
Clark: That's the blue -- it's the low.
Cassinelli: That's the -- that's the edge -- that's the 15 -- that's the 15 from center line --
Clark: Right.
Cassinelli: -- there? So, center line would be -- where would --
Clark: That's -- you know, center line on the blue and, then, 15 feet out.
Cassinelli: So, is the -- is the lateral -- is the lateral on the -- the lateral would be on the
thin blue then? Is that --
Clark: Correct.
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Cassinelli: Okay. So, virtually -- am I wrong in that virtually all that would be the -- the
easement for irrigation district?
Clark: Approximately half. Fifteen from the center line.
Cassinelli: Okay.
Fitzgerald: Fifteen feet on both sides.
Clark: Right. Sorry. I should have --
Cassinelli: Yeah. I guess I would like to see it more just -- I'm not exactly sure, but it
looks like you are losing most of that. Most of that is easement really.
Clark: A good chunk of it is easement. You can put sod in those easements. You can't
put trees in those easements. And, again, it's not a huge number of trees that you need
to put in in order to meet code and they could go on the outside of it.
Cassinelli: Okay.
Allen: Excuse me, Chairman. The plat that they submitted depicts a 40 foot wide
easement. The Coleman Lateral.
Fitzgerald: So, that was my question to Legal. I mean we have two opinions on how this
rolls down, so can you give us a -- some guidance on where we go from there?
Pogue: You could recommend that -- one consideration would be Option B to continue
and have them work -- work through that. Staff and the applicant.
Fitzgerald: The plat says 40?
Allen: Their surveyor put it down as 40.
Fitzgerald: Okay. Hethe, do you have a thought? Can you give us guidance on which
one -- I mean if we have a survey that tells us 40 we have got to go in the direction that
makes -- or -- and that's how our staff is responding. Do you have any feedback that you
can give us on where the discrepancy might lie?
Clark: I would have to investigate where the surveyor came up with that number. We
have -- our understanding is it's 30 total --
Fitzgerald: Thirty.
Clark: -- 15 from center line. So, we would have to investigate it.
Fitzgerald: Okay.
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Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: Another follow up to Commissioner Holland's question about the southern
property. Have you -- other than just figuring out where to put the stub street, have you
looked at -- or I mean have you talked with them -- I know we have had a couple of
proposals come through. Have you talked with them at all about looking at that as one
-- I mean. That's -- that's what -- I think that's a lot of what we discussed in the previous
times we looked at that corner piece was having this fit as one -- one larger parcel. I
realize that -- that it's not that you are limited, because you don't own that, but at the same
time how much conversation have you specifically had with them about trying to do
something and working together to develop one large -- one large piece that -- I think that
we can all be happy with?
Clark: Commissioner Cassinelli, thanks for the question. So, we have had a number of
conversations with them -- you know, that included asking them to tell us where they want
our stub street to go to accommodate what they might want to do in the future. So , we
gave them the -- you know, the two options. It could have been -- let me show you. The
-- you know, the stub street could have been further in over here or it could have been
here. They preferred right here. Beyond that they have no plans of moving forward in
the immediate future and we can't control that process. We don't -- you know, they -- they
own the property, they get to decide what's going to happen there. So , it becomes so
hypothetical that it would be difficult to -- to make any commitments along those lines.
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: Can I ask a question to staff. Sonya, have you -- did you guys give any
thoughts, ideas as far as how they might bring that -- that entire corner together?
Allen: I will defer to Bill on that.
Parsons: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, not with this particular application.
I think as you are aware, Josh departed the city about the time that that application came
forward on Alpina. I took it over to try to get them to the finish line. As you recall, it was
continued multiple times by this body to ensure that there could be something cohesive
there on that -- that corner. My recollection of the -- and I don't want to get too much into
the weeds on how this integrates with that piece. We are here to talk about the applicant's
property this evening. We only put it in the staff report to bring it to your attention, just
because we know -- I remember it being something that you guys were adamant you
wanted to see all of this come in as a cohesive plan, but what you have this evening is a
plan that abuts that property. Just going back to your earlier conversations , the comp
plan allows you -- allows an applicant to float that. The comp plan designation is a parcel
specific. So, those were the discussions that were had on Alpina, is that we would
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probably orient the mixed use to wards the Linder Road side, so that we could get
adequate access off Linder and, then, it would feather into more residential to the north
and to the east is some of the conversations we had and we also had the applicant lay
out a road network, so we could see how it could all be interconnected. Again, that wasn't
something that we relied heavily on when we pre-app'd with this applicant. We felt
medium density -- that's what the comp plan has, but we did want them to have those
conversations with that property owner as to how it would -- how they could facilitate
something into this commercial piece, because we all know the challenges is -- that that
-- that commercial corner is going to have. So, long story short, that's why we pose it to
you whether or not -- this is annexation. This is our one chance to get it right and if you
feel like this project isn't integrating appropriately with that southern boundary and you
don't feel like the open space is where it needs to be or the parking requirements are
meeting the standards that you are looking for, then, certainly that's within your purview
this evening is say it's not the right time for this piece of property.
Fitzgerald: At the same time we got to make sure we are focused on this application.
Cassinelli: Exactly.
Fitzgerald: So, it's one of those -- I appreciate the balance, but make sure we are
cautioning ourselves to focus on the application in front of us, so --
Clark: Mr. Chair, maybe I can add something --
Fitzgerald: Absolutely.
Clark: -- that as I understand it, Alpina -- one of the reasons that it went away was
because of the commercial -- or, excuse me, the kind of high amount of residential and
small amount of commercial that was in there. That is -- that's what I understood was
one of the -- the -- the complaining items --
Fitzgerald: Well, I think the challenges -- we were trying to float it, so we could get better
access to the roads, so that there could be a mixed use of three separate different types
of users there.
Clark: I think, Mr. Chair, your -- your point is well taken. You know, we can only control
what we can control and this is the only application that's in front of you and it --
Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Clark: -- is strictly in accordance with a Comprehensive Plan.
Fitzgerald: Additional follow ups? Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: I have a couple of separate questions.
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Fitzgerald: Go right ahead, sir.
Cassinelli: Hethe, what is -- it's -- it's been -- it's been brought up and -- and, obviously,
there is some objection on your end, but as far as -- and I know in your presentation you
-- you stated because it's -- it's not part of the -- it's not part of design plans, but on the
colors and on the eaves, now that I'm seeing this back in front of me. What is -- what --
what's -- what's the big objection to adding in different color schemes and also the eave
requirement?
Clark: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Cassinelli, so, substantively, you know, we -- the -- the
-- the condition with regard to colors -- you know, sure, I mean, yeah, we are going to do
a good job of making sure that it's an attractive product. The issue here is the principle
of it. We -- the -- the duplex buildings are subject to design review and we -- we all
understand that, that's all -- that's part -- that's per code. The individual single family
detached product by code is not subject to design review and when we impose these
color conditions, what we are saying is is that someone subjectively somewhere is saying
that they are -- they have a better opinion of what the color combinations should be than
the -- the actual owner and city code doesn't include that requirement. It doesn't incl ude
anything like that for detached single family. With regard to the eaves, we think that we
should adhere to building code and we have a variety of models that employees in
different ways, they all meet building code, they have all been successful product, we
don't see a reason for there to be a variance from what building code would otherwise
require here and we don't think it makes sense to impose those different building code
requirements in DA's that, then, have to be cross-referenced in the future.
Fitzgerald: Any additional --
Cassinelli: No.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal or Commissioner McCarvel, we have kind of skipped out
on you guys. Do you want to -- do you have any questions? Commissioner Seal, go right
ahead.
Seal: I'm -- I don't have any questions at this time. It looks like it's been pretty well
covered.
Fitzgerald: Okay.
Allen: Mr. Chairman? Excuse me. May I respond to something?
Fitzgerald: Absolutely.
Allen: It actually is a code requirement for all -- design review applies to single family
residential attached dwellings and it can also apply to single family residential detached
if it's required as part of a development agreement. That is Section 11-5B-8B2. Staff isn't
recommending that the detached units comply with all of the design standards, although
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we could recommend that as part of a development agreement. We are only
recommending that the color scheme requirements in the design standards apply to all of
the units so it's consistent. So, just for clarification. And also on the eave requirement,
the reason staff included that condition in the development agreement is because the
applicant submitted conceptual elevations that show eaves. So, if that's actually what
they are intending on building that just solidifies that, to make sure that happens. If it's
not what they intend on building, they shouldn't be showing that on their concept
elevations. So, for -- if -- if that is the case, then, that's -- that's what they need to show,
what they are actually going to build. So, that is in your purview. That isn't a code
requirement, that is correct, but it is what they are proposing on their elevations. So, just
for clarification. And -- and while I'm here, if I could just go ahead and address the other
two change that the -- changes that they are asking for, the new common lot, they want
that deleted and the relocation of the open space, the pathway lot. The -- per the
pathways plan -- we do want to see a pathway along that waterway. T he relocation of
the open space for the micro path is at the request of the Police Department and for our
code requirements for CPTED reasons, we -- we don't want a pathway that's clear over
hidden behind building lots for public safety. If they -- well, I will leave it at that.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel, did you have a comment, ma'am, or a question?
I'm sorry.
McCarvel: Yeah. I guess there is a whole -- it seems to be a whole lot of stuff that's gone
back and forth here that we are -- it looks like we are being asked to referee here tonight
and I'm just wondering is -- do you feel more time is going to be beneficial or is the
applicant and staff just at a stalemate here and needing us to resolve it?
Clark: Mr. Chair, Commissioner McCarvel, it's a hard question. The -- there has not been
much time to resolve this, because the staff report only came out a couple days ago.
What I would hate to do is to have it kicked down the road and then -- and, then, not have
it resolved with -- you know. Or not have more information until immediately before the
next hearing and kind of have ourselves into a do loop. So , I mean we are, obviously,
always willing to have additional conversations and try to resolve some of these things.
This sounds like this easement thing might be something that we need to get resolved.
But I -- I am -- you can probably hear the frustration in my voice that we would like to have
some more time to address some of these issues from the time of the staff report until
now.
Fitzgerald: So, Hethe, can you bring your -- your picture on the different pathways and I
just have a quick quick question on a clarification. So, the red -- those are the master
pathways. Those are ten feet; correct? The existing?
Clark: Correct.
Fitzgerald: And, then, the connection point -- if you were going to Apple Pine Street,
which is at the end of --
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Clark: Right here.
Fitzgerald: Yeah. If I'm -- if I'm correct there is a common lot at the end there that is ten
feet. So, I'm just making sure I'm clear.
Clark: There -- there is a narrow common lot -- I think it's a driveway --
Fitzgerald: Okay.
Clark: -- if I remember correctly. It -- it allows the neighbor -- this person to take access
out onto Apple Pine, if I -- if I understand it.
Fitzgerald: Okay. I just want to make sure I'm understanding that area correctly. Okay.
Thank you for the clarification.
Clark: Uh-huh.
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: I will just -- I will ask the applicant -- I had asked it earlier, but the report from the
Meridian Fire Department basically says that you are going to be limited to 30 building
lots because the project does not meet all required access roads with some turnarounds.
Is there -- are you guys going -- I mean what's your plan to address that?
Clark: Commissioner Seal, we are in agreement with that and we will be working on
getting an access across our -- our neighbor's property to get -- in order to exceed the 30.
But we are in agreement with that condition and it's part of your -- of your proposed
conditions right now.
Fitzgerald: Thank you. Any additional questions for the applicant at this time? Thank
you very much.
Clark: Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Appreciate it. Madam Clerk, do we have folks who would like to testify?
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, we had nine residents signed in. Four wish to testify. The first of
which is Julie Ann Domingo.
Fitzgerald: Ma'am, thank you for being here tonight. Please step up -- pull that
microphone close to you and --
Domingo: Yeah. Forgive my height. Good evening, folks.
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Fitzgerald: Please state your name and your address for the record.
Domingo: Yeah. My name is Julie Ann Domingo and I'm a resident from 4144 E.
Esperanto, Movado Greens.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, ma'am.
Domingo: So, I am actually a new homeowner in there and I think what -- the house that
I am in right now is one of those that are going to be building in this planned community,
so for the -- inside the house is really like -- the design is really good and the quality of
the finishes and all it's -- I can really say that it is high quality. I don't have any problem
at the moment and when I actually had like a third-party inspector to do like inspection
and stuff, he didn't do -- find anything to fix, even like the material, that floorings and all.
So, I don't have any interest in that one. So , interior, the design, the color, the
combinations and all is really good. Functionalitywise it's also good. And, then, the
community itself I think it's really well maintained and like at nighttime when you look
outside of your house it's nice to see the neighborhood how -- there is -- I would say good
symmetry. There is variation, but they have maintained a symmetry. It's beautiful to look
and when you drive in like going back from the office it feels like I am at home. It's
beautiful, the fencing and all and also the landscaping, it's really nice. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: We appreciate you being here. Thank you, ma'am, very much.
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, we have Serena Ormsby Alvarez.
Fitzgerald: Good evening, Mrs. Alvarez. How are you?
Alvarez: I'm well. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Please state your name your address for record, please, ma'am.
Alvarez: Thank you. My name is Serena Ormsby Alvarez. My address will be actually
4120 East Esperanto. I'm closing in the next week or so. So, I will be part of the
community very soon. But I have been eyeballing it while it 's been developing and,
actually, I'm just waiting for my home to be complete. I'm relocating here -- or I have
recently relocated in September with my employer for a new position in the Boise area.
I'm from Arizona. I'm not sure if foreigners are --
Fitzgerald: We are happy to welcome you. Thank you for coming.
Alvarez: Thank you. But I love the community. I love Boise area. And I was just trying
to find something that was centrally located to my work and to the community and to
resources like grocery stores and gas stations and all of that. So, the community I'm in,
Movado Greens as well, and we like the price point. Me and my family -- we have a small
family, one child and a spouse and my spouse works from home and the home itself
seems to be well constructed from what we have observed and the same thing, I had an
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inspector come in and there was just really minor things that needed to be tended to and
they were tended to quickly. But the price point and the upgrades on the inside of the
build -- inside of the house are really what drew us there. The community, when you pull
in, it's really nice to look at, like she mentioned, but I like the fact that it was low
maintenance, because it has like -- like I mentioned, I have a child, she's two and a half,
so she takes a lot of time, so not having to spend time taking care of the grounds and
making sure that -- you know, that my neighbors' trees aren't growing into my house and
having those sorts of awkward conversations that you often have when there is not rules.
I'm appreciative of those at this point and I'm grateful for the -- for the low -- low
involvement and having to care for my property. So, those are some of the things that
brought us there and the parks and the top spaces I think is what you said, so we have a
little -- there is one close by that -- that I'm grateful for, because she's got lots of energy
and I can just walk over there and the community has the -- you know, the sidewalks and
the walking paths and those are things we were looking for that we could keep her safe
and -- and also still get her exercise and us get exercise without having to get mowed
over by some automobiles. But, yeah, that's what brought us there. So, thank you.
Fitzgerald: Thank you so much. And welcome to Idaho.
Alvarez: Thank you.
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, Stave Yapyap. Sorry if I didn't say that right.
Yapyap: Good evening, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. My name is Stave Michael Yapyap.
I am from 4180 East Esperanto Street. Also in Movado Greens Subdivision. So, I am a
new homeowner. First time in my entire life to buy a new home here in Meridian and I'm
proud of it. One thing to note about buying a house built by BlackRock Homes is that
they built it with high quality. Julie and I -- Julie and I had the same experience finding a
house on the same price point, so we have a comparison between a house that's like 300
K versus a house built by BlackRock 300 K. You will notice that the quality -- the
specification -- the details of the house built by BlackRock is outstanding. We share the
same third party to inspect the house and the findings was very minimal at -- it's just some
design structures that we need to be easily fixed and shot off to Jayden, one of the
BlackRock's key member who helped us building those things. I like that it's a low
maintenance kind of house. In our lifestyle today time is very -- it's a collateral that we
need to put emphasis on. A low maintenance housing is very important to us. We don't
need to preserve anything. The -- the HOA are preserving the gardens, the trees, and all
those things. The fencing and stuff like that. So, we are very -- we are very appreciative
of that one. And one thing to note about -- about the BlackRock's development is that
when you drive around the vicinity of our subdivision, we always see the signs that
reminds all the construction workers to say live -- leave the place better than it was used
to be. So, as a person living in the central area where some of the houses are still being
built, it's nice to see that the place are well maintained. It's clean. There is no complaint
on our side that the woods are scattered around, concrete are everywhere. No, it's very
clean. It's well organized. So, development is really, really well planned. So, thank you
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through BlackRock for doing that as a proactive approach, as a homeowner on that end.
Yeah. That's -- that will be all for my end. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, sir. We appreciate you being here.
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, Peng Cheng.
Fitzgerald: How are you, sir?
Cheng: Good. How's it going.
Fitzgerald: Good. How are you?
Cheng: Good. Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Peng Cheng and I stay
in 2153 East Ringneck Street. That is a house in Movado community. I just moving to
my house three -- two months ago. We like this place and I spend a couple of months
searching for housing here and, actually, BlackRock Homes distinguished itself from other
builders. They put a lot -- a lot of thoughts into their design and layouts of rooms and
houses. Can give you a very small example of their thoughts is they have a lot of -- like
openings -- extra windows with privacy glasses on the walls, so that all -- give you good
privacy, but in the meantime it will let a lot of sunlight into the house and have a bright
inside of the house during the -- during the day. I mean the entire daytime. So, that's the
-- one of the great design I like about this house. Also they -- when they pick the location
they -- they also -- they always pick locations which is convenient and you can get good
access to like other businesses, like, you know, restaurants, gas stations, shops and easy
access to freeways. I like the locations very well. And they also build a great quality
house at a great price points. My house is only like 300 K for a single family or just myself.
I think it's a quite affordable. I really like that. That doesn't mean like they compromise
quality. I did also hire some third-party inspector for inspections and they didn't find any
major problems. Everything is -- looks perfect. I think we had a lot of discussion about
the -- you know, the color of the sidings in this session. You know, they did -- I believe
they did a great job in, you know, keep -- how -- I mean to have some variations within
the same community, but they always -- and also in the meantime they pick the right
colors for individual houses. I think looks kind of uniform with some good variations as
well. Final points is I like the low maintenance of the house, because I'm a first time buyer
of house. I'm -- no experience of, you know, mowing your lawns and doing all kinds of
works and the HOA takes -- takes care of that and I feel like it saves me a lot of time and
efforts. I don't have to purchase a lot of extra stuff I don't want to use all the time. Yeah.
So, in general speaking, I think this builder will definitely provide houses of good qualities
and I'm speaking in favor of this projects. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: We appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
Weatherly: Mr. Chair, that's all that signed up to speak tonight.
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Fitzgerald: Thank you, Madam Clerk. Sir, if you would like to come forward. Please
state your name and your address for the record.
Lloyd: Steven Lloyd. We live next door to the development to the -- to the east.
Fitzgerald: I think we have seen you guys lots of times on applications before.
Lloyd: Just -- yeah. One of the -- I just -- I wanted to add that, you know, we are kind of
stuck in the middle of this whole thing and it was nice to this development that they
reached out to us and asked us what -- what our opinions were and -- and, actually, we
kind of appreciate -- we appreciated that. When the development came into our east, the
Corey Barton Subdivision, nobody reached out to us. Nobody asked us what our opinion
was. And now when we look out -- you know, I mentioned they -- they built five or six two
story houses to our east, right on our property line, and with an elevation -- they had to
raise the elevation four feet before they started the project. So, we have a wall of homes
that now when we look to our east that's what we see. I reached out to them, tried to get
-- and call the people with -- with them, but nobody returned phone calls and now we have
this. But they did build a single -- the single across the street. They built the single family
-- the single level ones across the street, which would have been nice. They could have
flipped them very easily. In the conversations we have had with them they agreed to put
the single family homes on our property line, which is kind of nice, which will increase our
view and things. So, I don't know if I'm for or what -- I'd rather it stay a pasture. It's really
nice over there that way, but I know that's not going to happen. So , somebody that's
coming in that's willing to work with the community and work with us and be a good
neighbor, we do appreciate it. So, we are here to give that opinion. All I ask, with the
ones that are happening -- whatever happens around us, we have decided -- last time we
were here we were going to decide -- are we leaving or are we staying. We have decided
to stay. So, whatever happens in front of us, to the side of us, behind it, when we are
talking about ten foot pathways that butt up to our property, it does affect us and we would
like to -- you know, to have our say in that as -- as part of the community. So, what they
are doing next to us they have -- they have reached out to us and agreed to put that in
the plan. So, we do appreciate that. I just wanted to leave that opinion , so --
Fitzgerald: We appreciate it.
Lloyd: -- thank you.
Fitzgerald: Thank you very much. Is there anyone else in the audience that would like
to testify on this application that hasn't been heard from yet? Okay. Going once. Going
twice. Okay. Thank you. Would the applicant like to come back up and provide any
feedback or -- if you have any comments or additional thoughts, now that you got to sit
down and think through some of the questions before you?
Clark: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hethe Clark. 251 East Front Street in Boise. So, a couple
of items. I -- we went back -- we pulled out the plat and -- to check that data. The plat,
as Sonya mentioned, does have a 40 foot easement. So, we will concede that it's a 40
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foot easement, get everybody on the same page about that dimension. The plat also
shows that that lot is 70 feet deep. So, outside of the 40 feet and there is another 30 feet
to be able to satisfy the -- those landscaping requirements. So, there shouldn't be a
concern about lack of information with regard to that easement. We will -- we will concede
the 40 feet. But, again, the plat also shows an additional 30 feet. With regard to parking,
one point I didn't make before is that lawn care is included with this project and so what
does that mean for your garage. Your garage isn't being taken up with lawn mowing
equipment, all that sort of thing. That's another reason why we think that -- that going
above and beyond the parking requirements per code is just not appropriate in this case.
And, finally, I went back and looked at the elevations on this eave question. Again, those
are concept elevations. Thank you, Sonya. Those are not final designs. There is not a
specific requirement in the conditions of approval of those designs and that's a good
reason, because they are conceptual. Those -- we -- in our product we use four foot
wrapped eaves. So, it appears from the front that there -- the eaves continue beyond the
-- on the sides and that's what you would -- that's what you're seeing here. We are
selective in the way we use them. So , for example, if there is a side street, you would
see an eave all the way across that side, but we always meet code and we prefer to be
able to design to this particular site. So, we stand by the request to remove the -- the
eave condition. Again, we are concerned about the principle of the -- of the thing, but we
did go back and as we were sitting there, you know, looked back at the color scheme
requirement again -- again concerned about the principle, but, you know, we are going to
meet those color scheme requirements. So, what I'm proposing is that we would concede
on the color scheme condition and -- but stand by our guns, as it were, on the -- on the
eave condition. So, with that, that's all I had to add after having a couple minutes to think
about that and so happy to answer any further questions.
Fitzgerald: Any additional questions for the applicant? Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: Absolutely. Can you pull up -- Sonya, can you pull up the -- the plat there.
Plat map. If you would pull up the one that's colored with the single family -- or with the
single story versus two story. Had you -- Hethe, did you give any thought -- I see you got
some -- it's -- one, it's mixed and maybe that would be better when it's laid out, but did
you give any thought to almost running the perimeter in single and having that interior
portion being two story?
Clark: You know, we have looked at a number of different alternatives there and,
Commissioner Cassinelli, I'm not sure if there is a specific area that you are more or less
concerned about. The areas on the west are against Linder Road, so we want to make
sure that that has a nice transition into the streetscape. The areas on the east, that was
done in -- in consultation with our neighbor, where they had requested it, on the south,
you know, we anticipate that that would be adjacent to commercial, so it would be
appropriate to have the taller -- taller structures there and we do need to have a mix of
product types. So, we wouldn't want to overwhelm it with all single story versus all two
story. So, we felt like this was a good balance.
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Cassinelli: I was even thinking maybe -- as far as the -- the neighbor to the east there,
bringing that -- that -- that whole block there -- lots -- can't read that -- 20 -- 20 something
through 30 something. There is -- you have got it four and four and maybe doing that all
single -- single level if -- if that would be a little bit more neighborly and -- it was just a
thought, if you had looked at some of those things.
Clark: We have looked at it, but -- and, again, those -- the -- the lots that were identified
on the east were identified in -- in collaboration with our neighbor.
Cassinelli: Okay. All right. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: Mr. Chair. A couple of comments for you, Mr. Clark and Mr. Bailey out there.
Just looking at this -- this project, I know -- you know, the project that came into the south
of it had a similar comment that we can't be handicapped on what the project to the north
is of us, we don't know when they are going to come in and develop and it's kind of the
same thing. It's the chicken and the egg, which one comes first. How do you work
together. And your product type -- you know, you have got a lot of endorsement in the
room. I have driven through your neighborhoods, I think you have got a nice product that
fits a need in the community absolutely. No questions or concerns for me on the -- the
quality of the product and, you know, we can certainly work through some of these
requests you have and talk about those internally, but we do have to look at how this
product fits in with what's surrounding it and so my concern is with the two acre parcel
down south of it, the biggest challenge that we had in that product was connectivity to
Linder Road, so that they could have more access. So, if that -- I can't remember how
big that piece was itself, but it was two to three acres. It wasn't a huge piece. So, that
was the project we were looking at earlier. So , if this was -- or a similar concept was to
come back in that looked something like this and you had people going in, they still didn't
have a great access out of Linder Road and they wanted to have that full left turn onto
Linder Road, they would have to go through your subdivision to get out on Lind er Road
with the full access. So, there could be some traffic concerns and there could be some
limitations on how this corner develops out with the way that yours develops out there.
So, just putting that comment out there, I think we need more commercial in this area. If
you look at the COMPASS report it says the jobs-to-housing ratio is .2 for this area within
that square mile and it should be somewhere between one and 1.5 to be the right jobs -
to-housing ratio. So, part of our job is to try and make sure that we get the right blend for
the Comprehensive Plan, make sure that we do the right thing and I think I would
personally like to see the regional designation floated north a little bit to encompass just
a little bit more of your site, even though I'm okay with the idea of having some housing
in there and maybe even some multi-family in there. I struggle a little bit, because I'm
trying to figure out what would be the -- the best for Meridian in the long run about how
this property integrates with the ones around it.
Clark: Understand your comments. What we can do is take the Comprehensive Plan as
it exists and the property that we control as it exists and we -- we don't control that property
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to the south and, as I mentioned before, this -- this is -- the planning for this property was
for medium density. So, that's about all I can add to that. I'm certainly sympathetic to
your concerns, Commissioner Holland.
Fitzgerald: Hethe, when you are -- in regards to the police concerns over working through
a common drive into a pathway that goes into a -- whether we put a pathway there or it's
natural or whatever it is, thoughts on that, feedback, because I know where -- we get a
lot of feedback from the police in regards to not having things that are ended where there
is no access where people just go back there and cause mayhem. So , any feedback
there?
Clark: Mr. Chair, so the -- I'm a little perplexed by it. If you move that -- that pathway
connection up, then, you are, basically, creating a dead end in that common area.
Whereas if you leave the pathway as we have proposed it you have a through path
through the entire thing. So, I guess I will be honest, I don't understand why this is -- why
our proposal is less safe than what the alternative is, which, again, creates a dead end.
Fitzgerald: Okay. I just want to make sure we got that squared away. Thank you for the
feedback.
Clark: Yeah. Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: Mr. Chair, one more follow-up question. So, looking at where the street -- looks
like it's called Woodpine -- would stub to the north. Does that connect into anything right
now or that would just connect into the -- towards where that other property exists and
into future development land?
Clark: Commissioner Holland, that's correct, it would stub -- that's a stub street in the
future development.
Holland: So, virtually when we are creating this plat you are going to have one point of
access until the property of the south and the property of the southeast of you would
develop.
Clark: Until we -- unless we can get an access ourselves across those properties, which
is always an alternative.
Holland: Have you had any conversations with the property to the southeast of you in
how -- when their timeline would look like?
Clark: I'm not aware, but I'm going to ask another member to --
Fitzgerald: I think Laren should stand up here and hang out with us. No, I'm just joking.
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Bailey: Commissioners, Laren Bailey, business address 4824 West Fairview Avenue.
We did speak with Mr. Creek to the -- to the southwest -- or southeast of us. He does
intend to sell his property for development, but the price point he expects to get is
astronomical to say the least and so we don't see anything happening with that near term,
unless somebody decides they want to pay what -- what he's asking. But that is his goal
in the end is to sell that. He doesn't live there, he lives in Eagle, and so we have had
discussions with him. He didn't have any opposition to the development , but -- and he's
-- he's not here tonight, but --
Fitzgerald: Thank you for that. Commissioner Cassinelli, you had a question?
Cassinelli: Hethe, did -- and I don't know without seeing the boundary lines there and
what -- what the irrigation district -- where they are at. Are you able to shift to the north
at all and bring the open space into the interior or -- because of where -- because of where
the boundary is and the easement -- it sounds like you still got 30 feet. Did you look at
-- at rearranging this at all to where you could do that, push it up -- push it to the -- to the
boundary to the north and bring open space in -- because, obviously, that's a -- that's an
issue where there is issues about the -- multiple issues about the open space right now,
pathways, and where to put that with what the police are wanting and what staff is
wanting, what you want and whatnot. So, can you address that?
Clark: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Cassinelli, to date -- and we have looked at a lot of
scenarios. If you -- if you -- it's kind of hard to see on this -- on this drawing, but if you --
where I'm pointing is where it has the -- the 40 feet that's identified and, then, over here
you have a measurement of 70 feet. The -- in our view what makes sense is to leave it
as is and to allow for kind of a natural area to be able to come in between those two
waterways. To us that would appear to -- that would be diminishing returns, given the --
the -- the requirements that it would take to be able to relocate that , both financially and
with the irrigation district. So, our proposal is for it to -- is to be able to -- to use it as it --
as it exists as, essentially, an amenity within that open space.
Cassinelli: Follow up. Can you -- can you expound on that a little bit? You mentioned
diminishing returns. Are you saying that if you push it to the north you are going to get
fewer lots?
Clark: No. The cost of relocating the -- that -- that waterway -- I believe you guys have
restrictions on covering waterways at this point under your -- under your code. Those are
the kinds of things that -- that I'm talking about, in addition to whether you would lose lots
or not.
Cassinelli: But do you understand what I'm saying? If you can push that to the -- if you
could shift the northern part to the north and get those -- those -- Lots 7 through 21 --
through 20 another 30 feet north -- right to the edge of the easement and, then, bring in
-- then you can in -- and if you are able to adjust everything, bring the common areas into
the middle or spread -- more spread out, maybe a -- you know, a couple little -- a couple
smaller pocket parks throughout, that's what I'm talking about. Is that -- are you able -- I
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mean you have got more room there, you can go to the north. Have you -- you know, did
you look at that?
Clark: Well -- and I would add that in addition there -- that we have -- to the lateral we
have some -- there is some drainage -- ditch drainage facilities up there as well and so I
-- you know, I expect that there would be some -- some difficulty in having those in too
close of contact. You know, we are, obviously, willing to explore different alternatives.
You know, at this point that doesn't appear to be a viable alternative , but we are happy to
look into it.
Allen: Excuse me. Commissioner Cassinelli, just for clarification, that 40 foot wide
easement is -- is this line right here. It reaches from the back of these building lots to that
dotted line.
Fitzgerald: So, that's the current easement --
Cassinelli: So, they can't -- they are as far north as they can be.
Allen: Exactly.
Cassinelli: Okay.
Clark: Then I misunderstood your question. I was assuming that you were intending for
us to have the easement relocated and that's --
Cassinelli: No. No. No. I was wondering -- I thought there was -- I still thought you had
more room --
Clark: Oh.
Cassinelli: -- to go -- to -- to shift and perhaps look at bringing in that -- what you have
got -- that common area up there in -- you know, inside. But if they are as far north as
they can go, given the easement -- okay. Thank you.
Allen: That's why staff recommended a 20 foot wide common lot outside of that
easement, pulling those building lots south a little bit and, then, putting a 20 foot wide
common lot there between the easement and the building.
Cassinelli: And the rear -- and the rear of those homes. Okay. Thank you.
Clark: And our -- and our point is that that's unnecessary given the additional 30 feet on
-- that are north of the easement.
Allen: If you -- if you put a pathway -- just to respond to that. If you put a pathway on the
north side of the easement, as you can see right here there is no way for it to connect out
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to Linder Road and the school property is developed north of here and there is no
pathway. So, just -- just for your information.
Clark: Can I have my map back? So, again, this -- this is what we were proposing. A
natural surface pathway actually could go within that easement potentially, because you
are not putting in a -- an asphalt or an improvement that can't be removed or altered easily
by the irrigation district and, then, beyond that what we would anticipate would -- and what
we have proposed is a regional pathway in the blue location that satisfies what the -- what
the master pathway maps were looking for. They would -- they would go right in these
locations and, then, you would have a loop trail that goes through the area that can be in
and outside of that easement that you would satisfy the landscaping on the 30 feet outside
of the -- of the irrigation easement with those -- with the tree requirements. But you can
certainly -- you don't have to go all the way back out to Linder through -- where -- this
place where it necks off, you can have an access point here, you can have an access
point here that allows people to come and do a loop trail, but still take advantage of the
developed sidewalks here to get to Linder and, then, walk the, what, 150 feet up to the
school.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: One follow-up question to your proposal there. The regional pathway that you
are talking about, the blue dotted line, would that be just a standard sidewalk width or
would that be a larger pathway?
Clark: Thank you for the question. As -- as I was coming into the hearing tonight I thought
that's what we were going to talk about was the width of it. So, the regional pathway --
call it preference -- is for the ten foot pathways. But, again, just as a reminder, there are
no ten foot pathways to connect to. So, you would have a ten foot pathway to nowhere.
So, you know, our preference would be to have a detached sidewalk and allow -- it would
be outside of the right of way, so we would allow for public access in that area. It can be
on the maps as part of the regional pathway, whatever needs to happen there to make
sure that the public is aware of that. There is not a ten foot path to connect to and as you
can see in this picture there is very little likelihood of that ever occurring.
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: So, the pathway that's proposed that's coming through the subdivision, that's -- I
mean, essentially, that's just going to be the sidewalk system where people are putting
out trash cans and all that, that's going to be part of that as well; correct?
Clark: And that -- that's true and that's exactly how its functioning at Movado. There is
-- there is a regional pathway that runs through there and it's working just fine.
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Cassinelli: Okay. And, then, to follow up, I can tell you that there are -- there is nothing
that connects to this, but there are ten foot pathways that are being built in different areas
there, because I ride on them on a bike. They are very nice for sure , because you don't
have to contend with, you know, things that people are leaving out on the curbs and, you
know, dogs running out and trying to bite your leg and different things like that. So, I can
definitely say that, you know, a wider pathway is something that would be more
acceptable, especially if it was on a canal side and there is always the argument of, you
know, there is -- there is lights facing into the subdivision, so it's more secure at night, but
there is also -- you don't want to have it on the inside of a subdivision. So , I can
understand both sides of that argument. But just in looking at this application, I can say
that, you know, the pathway on the -- on the northern boundary is something that makes
a lot more sense to me as, you know, a member of the community, where I'm going to
access that and use it on more of a daily basis, especially as all of this starts to tie in
together. These neighborhoods are finally starting to come together in that way. So , I'm
definitely somebody that would like to see that continue and continue in a way that's more
usable for things like strollers, bikes, you know, families, multiple people out on bikes at
the same time.
Clark: Commissioner Seal, I appreciate the comments and it certainly makes sense to
me. And, again, we are pathway proponents and do it all over the place. I think one thing
to keep in mind -- I don't think I -- I don't have a map that shows the width of the -- of the
easement, but if -- if you have the -- the 40 foot easement north of our lots and, then, I
believe the pathway landscaping requirement, Bill, is five feet on each side of the -- of the
pathway? So, if you put a ten foot pathway and five feet of landscaping on either side
north of the -- the 40 foot easement, you are into those drains at that point. So, not only
do we think it doesn't make a lot of sense from a practical perspective, but from a -- from
that perspective of being able to fit it up there a ten foot path north of these lots it presents
a number of additional constraints. So, there is -- there is more capacity to be able to do
a wider walk up in front along -- what is it -- Windswept Drive, then, there is behind the
lots, which is why we have proposed it in that -- in front.
Fitzgerald: Is there an option to make it bigger, instead of having it be a standard five
foot sidewalk?
Clark: And that's -- Mr. Chair, you know, one of the -- one of the things that I had proposed
was that we have the opportunity before City Council to confer with Parks and Rec to
come up with appropriate dimensions for that and so, you know, I think that's something
that we could continue the conversations with them about and try to come up with a
compromise that makes sense.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: A couple more comments. I am full of them tonight. If you are looking back at
the -- the pathway map that you showed where they connect and don't connect , I know
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that's certainly a challenge in Meridian where we have a lot of pathways that have starts
and stops and Parks Department is trying to work really hard to get that connectivity.
Looking at this map and seeing what they might do in the future -- and I can't speak for
the Parks Department, but I am imagining that where that canal kind of runs to the south
and edges the subdivision that's already been developed, they could reroute that yellow
pathway down and, then, connect it back to Settlers Park where it should have gone in
there. I don't know if that's been talked about in the Parks Department or what the long
term plan would be there, Sonya, but if you have got any guidance there I would love to
hear your thoughts.
Allen: Yes. Chairman, Commissioner Holland, if you are talking about right here, there
is a pathway that goes along there right now. I believe it's only five feet wide, but, yeah,
there is a pathway and, then, there is sidewalk connections out to here. So, this --
extending this and making a multi-use pathway here would allow it to connect to the on-
street pathway and, then, go to the school.
Holland: Thank you.
Allen: So, just -- just an additional comment. Anytime you run like a multi-use pathway,
you know, to promote people to use that area along an area where there is so many
vehicular conflicts, your common driveway that's for vehicular use, as well as all the -- the
driveways to all those homes there, you know there is -- especially when we route kids
through that area to school and stuff, there is -- there is a lot of public safety concerns.
Holland: Mr. Chairman?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: My -- my other comment that I was going to make -- if you go back to the layout
of the plat again, I really like the amenities that you have provided and that you are -- you
are kind of going above and beyond with the five different types of amenitie s. I think,
again, you guys -- you put together a nice product. My concern is maybe with its location,
because where it's at you have got a sharp corner -- corner going from Windswept Drive
to Woodchest just if you have got residents living in that -- you know, number two, three
or four and you have got a lot of kids that would be potentially playing in that open space
area and, then, if you have that pathway -- I worry about what Sonya just mentioned that
there is a lot of cars and traffic and especially if this connects to the piece in the south
and there ends up being commercial there, there could be challenges with people
whipping through this subdivision to try and get out to a full access point.
Clark: Commissioner Holland, the -- the park -- the park is fully -- is fenced. That's why
-- that's why we did that and you are -- you are talking -- I think it's 400 feet to the -- to the
properties to the south to be able to get to the park and by putting it in this location it
makes it more prominent and makes it part of the entry. It -- you know, as people come
by on the -- the -- what we hope would be the regional pathway, they -- they see it, they
see that it's an inviting neighborhood. I'm a little concerned by the idea that -- that
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sidewalks are not a safe way for kids to get to school. That's imposing a pretty high
standard that I have not seen before. Safe routes to school -- routes are always on
sidewalks. So, I have a hard time with that suggestion.
Fitzgerald: Additional comments, questions for the applicant?
Holland: I'm good for now.
Clark: Thanks.
Fitzgerald: Thanks very much. We appreciate you.
Clark: And I will just mention -- I -- Sonya, do you have that pdf that I sent you of the -- I
have the conditions that we had suggest to be modified all in one -- all in one page, so
we don't have to switch back and forth.
Allen: I don't have it on the PowerPoint here.
Clark: Okay.
Allen: Well, actually, maybe I --
Clark: Or you could just go back and forth between those two, but -- I think Bill had saved
it, but we lost Bill, so -- that's it at the top. There you go. This -- these are the proposed
modifications all in one place for you, so you can use it as your -- as you are deliberating.
Fitzgerald: Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Any additional questions for staff before
we close the public hearing? Hearing none, could I have a motion?
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I move we close the public hearing for H-2019-0109 for Edington Commons.
Seal: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on H -2019-0109.
All those in favor say aye. Opposed same. Motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: Team, thoughts?
McCarvel: Mr. Chair?
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Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: Now that we have closed the public hearing do we want to, first of all, entertain
the thought -- are we going to continue this or do we want to battle all this out?
Fitzgerald: Great question to start with.
McCarvel: I mean either way there is a lot to go through and it would be nice to see it all
wrapped up -- I mean in a presentation back from the applicant.
Fitzgerald: So, my -- the thing I have in my mind right now is -- I don't think we have a
good handle on where we landed on -- actually how much common spaces is out there.
I know we have kind of talked through it. We have differing opinions on easements and
different things. So, there is not a true percentage that we know right now, which makes
it hard to deliberate on that piece. For sure if we are going to talk about shifting things
and pathways and easements. So, I tend to agree on that point. Additional thoughts?
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: I'm -- I'm thinking along the same lines. There is some -- I mean pretty strong
wording in the report by Parks and Rec -- Parks and Rec that coincides with some of the
staff recommendations. So, it would be nice to have -- give the applicant the opportunity
to work with both staff and Parks and Rec and make sure that we are coming up with
something that's cohesive, that's going to work for everything. I mean not having that
northern boundary fit into some kind of common area and a rideable bike path to me is
something that I -- you know, I'm more in favor of than having it on the inside. I mean,
again, trying to ride through -- I mean not necessarily from getting kids to school safely,
because a lot of them are going to walk or bike through the neighborhood one at a time
and get there, but I mean when you are trying to go through with strollers and a family of
bikes and things like that, trying to do that on sidewalks with mailboxes and trash cans
and whatever else is out there along the way is prohibitive, to say the least. It's -- I try not
to ride through subdivisions that way, so -- if at all possible. There is also -- I mean there
is some other things that are going on in here. The most concerning thing to me on this,
honestly, is it's from the West Ada School District. I mean we are already capping
enrollment at Hunter Elementary, which is the closest elementary school. So, they are
shipping them to Paramount Elementary, which is already over capacity. That to me is
-- that's a huge concern. I mean the new high school opening up is going to help out a
lot of people, but I think it's a reasonable expectation when you move i nto a subdivision
the information that you are giving -- given on it is the nearest schools that are there. It's
not going to be the school that you might end up going to. So , I don't know how many
people are necessarily going to go down that rabbit hole to figure out exactly where their
child's going to be bused and they will redefine the school boundaries. I know that that's
something that's going to -- going to happen, but it just seems like kids -- and I mean I
know -- I mean my -- my kid -- my -- you know, one of my kids and some of his friends
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definitely ended up having to go to different schools throughout , you know, grade school
and junior high when they were growing up in Meridian. So, I just want to make sure that
that's on the record, that, you know, hopefully, we are trying to cut down on that or maybe
try to work with West Ada to get in front of it and as they say, if anybody wants to contribute
land they are always open to that.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: To your comment there, normally I worry about schools, too, because I know
they are all overcrowded. With this specific development I'm not as worried about it, with
the 92 units, because they are not targeted towards family dwellings, they are targeted
more towards people who are starting out, kind of having their first kids, but usually by
the time those kids are in the school system they tend to move to a bigger house, so that
they can accommodate those kids. Or empty nesters, as they say, because it's a low
maintenance product and I think they are going to see a lot of people that are seniors
wanting to move into there or people that don't want to deal with the maintenance. So,
I'm not as worried about that component of it. My biggest con cern about this application
I have already kind of made known , but I really worry about the regional plan for this
specific area. You have got a middle school that has no commercial amenities around it.
Not that they have to have places that middle schoolers can walk to, but it's sure nice
when you are able to walk -- and when I went to Meridian Middle School I walked down
the street to the library after school, because I had to wait for my parents for a couple
hours, where I got to, you know, walk to something that was nearby, which was nice. Or
the dentist office was right down the street. Those kind of things. I'm not saying that we
can handicap this specific project, because we have to look at this project, not the ones
around it, but at the same time we took this piece into consideration when we looked at
the piece that was to the south of it that came to us, too, because we get one shot at
developing it and once it's developed it's really hard to change it. From my experience in
trying to do economic development in other regions, it gets really tricky when you have a
two acre piece that you are trying to do commercial on a hard corner. It's the same reason
we ended up just approving a storage unit for the corner on the opposite side , because
they just didn't have enough room for the access to make it work for what they needed.
So, what I would hate to see is have this come back to us as another storage unit product,
because no one else can find another fit for it. So, I have some concerns overall. It's not
necessarily this group's fault that they have that problem sitting there, but it's -- I think it's
our job also to think about it regionally and I'm a little bit worried that if this project moves
forward with all housing, we are creating a bigger problem for ourselves in the future for
the other landowners, because we will restrict what they can do.
Fitzgerald: I went to school next to a tank farm and a hospital, so that -- no, that doesn't
work. That's why I am so weird. A couple comments. I think -- I do think this product is
needed in the city. I think -- and I think it's where it's located there is a definite need for
it. I -- I understand that we did bring that -- bring both properties into conversation, which
is -- it does pose a challenge. I think there is a lot of things that need to be worked out
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on this thing before we -- everything's finalized. I would like to see a -- you know. And I
know it's a lot of work for staff and the applicant, but give us a clean -- like this is what we
have, here is how much percentage we have. We have a pathway that's agreed upon by
the -- by the police, by the Parks Department, and this is our -- but here is the application,
because I think we are trying to call balls and strikes and that's -- may not be a good thing.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Yes, ma'am.
Holland: One other comment. If -- if -- I think it would be my preference to continue the
project, too, and let them work out some of these details with staff. At the same time I
would like to make a personal request that they would consider looking at seeing if they
could add some commercial to this, because I think we can work out the -- the issues with
the comp plan with staff. As I mentioned they can float that regional designation up north
a little bit more, especially if we give that endorsement that , you know, we would like to
request that they don't charge an extra fee for that change if they put commercial in this
specific section. I just want to see that we can create a better supporting use for the
properties around it.
Fitzgerald: Especially with the access to the road.
McCarvel: Mr. Chair, I would agree. I think that little piece on the corner is just going to
be locked into no options if we let this be all residential.
Seal: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Seal.
Seal: I agree with that and I did -- I forgot to mention, but I do like the product and I like
-- I really like the fact that when I go into the public comments everything I read in there
is positive. It's not -- you know, it's not negative feedback about what's trying to go in
there. So, from that standpoint I really like what's laid out here and it's -- you know, it's
-- it's nice to be able to read through some of the positive comments and know that , you
know, somebody's putting in a product that's well received in the community and -- and
needed at this point. That said, I like your analogy trying to call balls and strikes where
that's -- I definitely wouldn't be able to -- with the information that's in here as far -- that's
in contention, I wouldn't feel comfortable in trying to move forward with something on this.
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: I have a lot of questions.
Fitzgerald: You have lots of questions, now you don't want to talk.
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Cassinelli: You were waiting for my comments. I will say that -- while I was up here I was
looking at -- at a couple of other products. I was looking at -- at some of the builds in
Movado and, then, looking at a listing -- is it Verado --
Fitzgerald: Yep.
Cassinelli: -- off of Ustick there and particularly the -- the attached -- the duplexes, the
single story duplexes. I like the looks of them. It is a nice looking product and I -- it -- you
know, I mean based on young families and -- and the empty nesters, I think there,
obviously, is that demand there. Concerns that I have -- so, if we are -- if we are kind of
giving them some guidance -- if we are going to continue this and giving them some
guidance, what do they need to work on. Obviously, that common lot. They have got to
come -- there is -- there has to -- has to be something there. I -- they can't do it, they are
as far north as they can, but I don't like common lots, the bulk of them on the edge of the
-- edge of the property. It needs to be sprinkled throughout or something that's -- that's
centered. I realize, you know, with that -- you know, with the irrigation with the canal, it's
a little more difficult to play with. I am -- I -- if we get into some of the things that we --
that they discussed and brought up -- colors. Colors are temporary in my mind.
Homeowners can come in and they will paint it. So, that's not -- that's not as big of a deal
to me and the HOA will decide eventually what the colors are going to -- color schemes
are going to look like. But the colors will change. The eaves won't. And so what I would
say is -- to staff is I would want to see them hold firm on that design of the -- of the eaves.
Commissioner Holland brought up traffic. That is going to be a big one, especially on
these narrow streets with parking on one side . Everybody in that southern -- when --
whatever that becomes, unless it's another storage unit, everybody that wants to turn left
onto Linder is going to go up through that neighborhood. So , it's going to add a lot of
traffic and we have got very -- we have got narrow streets up there with -- with only parking
on one side, so -- and that somehow -- that's going to need to be addressed somehow
some way. I don't -- I don't know what the solution is. But they have got to -- they have
got to look at that. And, then, you know, I'm in support of staff, too, in trying to figure out
-- trying to add more parking, because I think it's -- I think it's necessary. And, then, it's
just going to -- it's really going to congest those streets, because people are going to be
-- they are going to be putting cars where ever -- or squeezing them where ever they can.
So, I would like to see somehow get more out of there. Those are my main concerns.
Fitzgerald: So, parking -- just to get clarification, then, for giving direction to the applicant,
is that -- you want wider streets or do you want additional parking , like actual parking
stalls or do -- what are you looking for?
Cassinelli: Yeah. I mean -- and I think regardless of what you do there you are going to
-- you know, they are going to have to get up -- they are going to have to give up a lot.
They are going to -- you know, something's going to have to change to -- to -- to get a
little bit more parking there, but I think that -- I think more parking somewhere is -- it's --
it's -- I think it's necessary.
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Parsons: Commission, before -- before we -- I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to
touch bases on parking. Wider streets isn't going to help the parking problem in there,
because the lots are narrow. It's -- they have curb cuts that prohibit, really, the parking.
You can have a wider street, but when -- if you have driven through their development
you know that their -- their lots are 32 feet wide or 34 feet wide and you got curb cut, curb
cut, curb cut. That's what prohibits parking on the street and that's why we have always
brought this concern to you. So, I don't want you to think just by us working with the
applicant and having them widen the road there are going to be this magical amount of
parking on the street. In those areas where -- anyways, I will just digress and leave it at
that. But that's not going to solve the problem. So, if you want more parking it's either
losing lots, widening the lots, dedicated parking someplace else on the site or, you know,
try to address the bigger concerns and we move on with that and try to get some
consensus with the applicant. But I think you are right, I think there is a lot of issues here
tonight. So, either, one, we need to get this continued out, resolve it tonight, or have a
different recommendation onto City Council. I will stand for --
Fitzgerald: Thanks, Bill.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: One more question for staff. If you are looking at open space requirements, it's
-- it's, obviously, ten percent open -- qualified open space is what's required for a 13.49
acre lot. If they were to go back and consider doing some of this commercial , where are
the breakdowns of what percentage changes? Is it always ten percent? If it was -- let's
say five acres of residential, eight acres residential, ten acres residential, where does that
shift happen?
Allen: Chairman, Commissioner Holland, the ten percent is based on the residential
development area. So, if there was commercial proposed, then, it would not apply to that
area. Essentially it would reduce the amount that they would have to provide.
Fitzgerald: Isn't there -- hit five acres, though, it goes away or something like that.
Allen: Yeah. Anything between -- or anything over five acres.
Fitzgerald: Yeah. So, five acres the open space is -- no.
Holland: Thanks. That answered my question.
Fitzgerald: Additional thoughts? Commissioner Seal?
Seal: Just on -- a question on widening the streets. Would widening the streets help with
the issue with the Fire Department as far as the access and emergency access and things
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like that? Would widening the streets actually help that to where they wouldn't have a
limitation on building lots?
Allen: Yes. Chairman, Commissioner Seal, yes, it -- it does allow for parking on both
sides and to maintain a clear emergency access drive . Widening the streets is going to
give you a few spaces, but like Bill said, it's not going to -- it's not going to amount to a lot
with the narrow lots.
Seal: Right. And I'm concerned about -- Commissioner Holland had brought up that -- I
mean -- and others have brought up that when that site to the south develops you are
going to have people coming through that subdivision. So, that's where I'm --
Allen: Right.
Seal: -- more of a proponent of not necessarily making more parking, but widening the
streets --
Allen: Right.
Seal: -- and I think the product kind of speaks for itself as far as kind of mitigating the
parking circumstances that we have in those subdivisions . They are -- they are kind of
empty nesters or people that don't have a lot of cars. There is not going to be, you know,
like you said, huge Super Bowl parties and things like that going on. I mean it only takes
one or two of those places to ruin that idea, but for the most part I think they are -- they
are in line with that. So, I'm less worried about the parking piece of it and more worried
about just the -- the ability to have, you know, a thoroughfare going through there safely.
Allen: Where emergency services has problems is when we have the narrow streets and,
then, people don't have places to park, they park anywhere, even if there is a no parking
sign. So, that's when they have problems, you know, during an emergency.
Seal: Okay.
Fitzgerald: Additional comments or are we ready to -- for somebody -- Commissioner
Holland to make a motion? I'm just joking. Is there additional thoughts or --
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commission -- or Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: If we are going to continue this, do we need to open it back up to bring the
applicant up here to see what dates we are talking about?
Fitzgerald: We can. We can get a nod from them on when they would like to do it or we
can open it back up, whichever way you would like.
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Cassinelli: Or maybe we can -- maybe even staff could direct us on a date.
Fitzgerald: Bill, do you have a next date that would work for the applicant or for you --
and/or for you?
Parsons: Mr. Chair --
Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Cassinelli: And how long you think this might -- you guys might need.
Parsons: Chairman, Members of the Commission, it's -- it's difficult. I don't think the 19th
is going to give us enough time to work out these issues. The 2nd -- we will probably --
don't know. We have a couple projects for that hearing and, then, the 16th we are pretty
full. We are looking at seeing what we h ave scheduled at this point in time, but I think it
might be wise to maybe open up the public hearing, see what the applicant can commit
to and, then, we will get a date certain.
Fitzgerald: Can I get a motion to reopen the public hearing?
McCarvel: So moved.
Holland: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to reopen the public hearing on H-2019-0109.
All those in favor say aye. Opposed same.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
Fitzgerald: Hi, Hethe. How are you doing?
Clark: Hethe Clark. 251 East Front Street. My opinion is that if -- if we can't have this
figured out by the 19th we won't have it figured out. So , I think we should put some -- put
some pressure on everyone and get it sorted out. Go for the 19th.
McCarvel: I think there is already a lot of pressure on everyone for the 19th. I remember
that draft -- what we already have on the 19th.
Parsons: Yeah. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission -- or Mr. Chair. Boy, I'm
taking a lead from Hethe here tonight.
Fitzgerald: The real chair is down there. She was there for a long time.
Parsons: I think I have been used to that. Well, there is another chance for her to do that
if she wants it.
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Fitzgerald: Exactly.
McCarvel: No. No. No. No.
Parsons: Anyways, we are looking at the record right now. So, next week we would need
to be get with the applicant and have a meeting and get it worked out. Next week is staff
report week for the following hearing. I don't see where we are going to be able to find
the time to do that. We have City Council hearing and P&Z. We have got four items for
you coming up on the 16th -- or on the 19th hearing. The 2nd, again, we have two projects
and the 16th of January we have two projects at this point in time.
Fitzgerald: The 2nd? Is that doable? Try to compromise. No? Yes? Maybe?
Cassinelli: Yeah. We have vacations planned for -- that's the holiday season.
McCarvel: Yeah.
Cassinelli: Are we likely to move the 2nd? What did -- what did you get from all that
feedback? Was everybody --
Parsons: We have a quorum.
Cassinelli: Do we have a quorum?
Parsons: We have scheduled projects.
Weatherly: Commissioner Cassinelli, at this time we do have a quorum.
Cassinelli: Okay.
Fitzgerald: We are going to hold it in Las Vegas, but --
McCarvel: Yeah. I think this staff has some well-earned vacation. Probably needed.
Fitzgerald: The 19th of January? 16th? Thoughts?
Clark: But not happy ones.
Fitzgerald: I -- I understand. I think the challenge is -- we have a staff that is down to two
and a half people and we are making -- trying to make sure you guys' development
community is staying happy, too, and we are in it, so it's a balancing act. I want to make
sure we get the right answer for everybody and I'm going to be a little bit understanding
to -- to both sides then. So, if we start stuffing things through and we miss something
and that puts us in a bad spot. So , I'm going to trust the staff that they can accomplish
what they are trying to accomplish in a certain amount of time. So, if we are talking about
-- you know, you guys were telling us where the Owyhee school is going to be online
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before you guys are done with this. I have less concern that it's not going to get done
before. That doesn't give enough time.
Clark: I wish that were the only constraint.
Fitzgerald: I totally understand and I know you have to dig and make things black and
other things like that, so I get that. But I have got to go a little bit with where the staff is,
too, so -- thoughts? Feedback for Hethe?
McCarvel: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: I just -- we just have to recognize the amount of growth that's going on here
and it takes time to get it right and this one just has a lot of open --
Fitzgerald: Questions.
McCarvel: -- questions and concerns on it and I don't -- I think it's -- to say, well, we want
to push through in just a couple of weeks because we -- I just don't think it's right and I
think we as a body need to tap the brakes once in a while and this corner I think
needs --
Fitzgerald: We have looked at it enough times.
McCarvel: -- and I'm sorry, it doesn't -- wasn't the timeline you had anticipated, but I think
it's what needs to happen.
Cassinelli: Well -- and I would agree, I mean our -- our responsibility is to the -- is to the
City of Meridian, the people of Meridian, and it -- I'm more in favor of -- you know. If we
got to go an extra mile to whatever it is and work on it and get it done right, that's --
Fitzgerald: Additional comments or questions? We appreciate it. Deliberate a little bit
more? Could I get a motion to reclose the public hearing on H-2019-0109.
McCarvel: Mr. Chair --
Fitzgerald: Oh.
McCarvel: I think we leave it open --
Fitzgerald: We leave it open if we are continuing. Thank you very much.
Holland: If the plan is to continue.
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Fitzgerald: Yeah. Then a motion is always in order, unless there is additional deliberation
or conversation needed.
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: I move that we continue file number H-2019-0109, Edington Commons to
January 16th, 2020.
Holland: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: In that motion I might make a recommendation to add a specific -- a few specific
items we want them to work on before they come back.
Fitzgerald: We need to give them guidance on what --
Cassinelli: I thought we -- I thought we did kind of. To work with staff --
Fitzgerald: To help Sonya.
Cassinelli: Okay. To work with staff on -- on the building requirements of the -- of the
development agreement to include eaves and colors. Traffic flow. Pathways.
Fitzgerald: Common lot.
Cassinelli: Common lots. Parking. Is there anything else?
Seal: Possibility of commercial.
Fitzgerald: Street width. Commercial review. Or mixed use review. Adding in pathway
locations.
Holland: Integration with surrounding properties to accommodate the regional mixed use.
Cassinelli: Are you getting all this? That motion?
Fitzgerald: Thank God for Dean who is here taking verbatim notes. Okay. I have a
motion. Do I have a second?
Seal: I second.
Fitzgerald: Is the motion maker amenable --
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Cassinelli: Oh, absolutely.
Fitzgerald: Okay. Can I have a second?
Seal: Second.
Fitzgerald: Okay. I have a motion and a second to continue the application for H-2019-
0109, Edington Commons, until January 16th. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same.
Motion passes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
B. Public Hearing Continued from November 21, 2019 for
Silverstone Apartments H-2019-0104) by Dave Evans
Construction, Located at 4107 E. Overland Rd.
Applicant withdrew application.
Request: Modification to the Conditional Use Permit (H-2016-
0060) to increase the number of dwelling units in the multi-
family development from 112 to 204, increase the acreage
from 5.61 to 10 acres, and update the development plan for
the site.
Fitzgerald: Okay. I have one more motion.
Cassinelli: Mr. Chair?
Fitzgerald: Commissioner Cassinelli.
Cassinelli: I move we adjourn.
McCarvel: Second.
Fitzgerald: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. All those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:59 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
APPROVED
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By Adrienne Werly, Deputy Clerk
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