The URL can be used to link to this page

2019-10-17Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting October 17, 2019. Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of October 17, 2019, was called to order at 5:30 p.m. by Chairman Jessica Perreault. Members Present: Chairman Jessica Perreault, Commissioner Rhonda McCarvel, Commissioner Lisa Holland, commissioner Andrew Seal and Commissioner Reid Olsen. Members Absent. Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald and Commissioner Bill Cassinelli. Others Present: Adrienne Weatherly, Andrea Pogue, Caleb Hood, Brian McClure, Bill Parsons, Jeff Brown and Dean Willis. Item 1: Roll-call Attendance __X____ Lisa Holland ___X___ Reid Olsen __X___ Andrew Seal _______ Ryan Fitzgerald __X___ Rhonda McCarvel _______ Bill Cassinelli ___X____ Jessica Perreault - Chairman Perreault: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome. Thank you all for coming here this evening as we help to plan Meridian's future. We appreciate your participation in the public process. At this time we would like to call to order the scheduled meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission for October 17th, 2019. Adrienne, let's begin with roll call. Item 2: Adoption of Agenda Perreault: Thank you. Okay. The first item on the agenda is the adoption of the agenda. Can I get a motion to adopt the agenda? Olson: I move that we adopt the agenda. Holland: Second. Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to adopt tonight's agenda. All those in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Item 3:. Consent Agenda [Action Item] A. Approve Minutes of October 3, 2019 Planning and Zoning Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 4 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 2 of 107 Commission Meeting Perreault: The next item on the agenda is the Consent Agenda and we just have one item, Item A, to approve the minutes of the October 3rd, 2019, Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. Can I get a motion to accept the Consent Agenda as presented? Seal: So moved. Holland: Second. Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to accept the Consent Agenda. All those in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Item 4: Action Items A. Public Hearing for New Comprehensive Plan (H-2019-0101 CPAT & CPAM) by Meridian Planning Department, Located in the City of Meridian. 1. Request: To replace the existing Comprehensive Plan (the Plan) for the City with a new long- range planning document. The application includes but is not limited to the following: 1) approval of new text, both background and policies; 2) adoption of a new Future Land Use Map of the City including Area of City Impact boundary changes; and 3) accepting new goals, objectives and action items of the Plan, by Meridian Planning Department. Perreault: Okay. So, we just have the public hearing for the Comprehensive Plan on our agenda this evening and we wanted to go over the format. It will be a little different than normal, so that we can accommodate as much testimony as possible this evening. So, we ask for all of your cooperation in being kind to the person next to you and the opportunities to speak before us. Also we would appreciate if you would keep distractions to a minimum with a -- with a little -- little chatter as possible. I'm trying to be careful about speaking too much, because it makes it hard for us to hear and also with clapping or -- or calling out or anything like that. It does make it a little bit hard for us to hear when there is -- when there is a lot of noise in the room, in addition to the fact that we are publicly recording and so sometimes the recording can get difficult to hear as well. So, we appreciate your cooperation in that very much. Is there anyone -- before I go through the hearing process, is there anyone who is here that is speaking on behalf of a larger group, whether it's a neighborhood association or homeowners association? And, if so, would you, please, stand up and would you state your name and the group that you are speaking for. Okay. Okay. Were you able to get that? So, before we -- we have anybody else announce themselves, who is here that's -- that this gentleman is speaking for? Who -- Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 5 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 3 of 107 would you raise your hands? Okay. Ideally we would like -- we would -- we would like those folks who raised their hands to only come up and speak if they feel like there is something that they need to share that wasn't presented by the person that is speaking on their behalf, so that we can keep everything as timely as possible. If everybody's in agreement with that, we would appreciate it very much. We want to hear as much as we can, but if there is -- if there is something really different that needs to be shared, otherwise, we -- we would like to allow that representative to speak. Pogue: Madam Chair? Perreault: So -- Pogue: Madam Chair? Perreault: Yes. Pogue: So, if you could invite the gentleman who will be representative for El Gato to come to the speaker and identify his name. The recorder wasn't unable to catch -- Perreault: Okay. Absolutely. Sir, would you, please, come forward. Just identify your name and -- and who you said that you were with, so that we can get it on public record. Sundby: Charles Sundby. I live at 6155 West El Gato Lane in Meridian. Thank you for the -- Perreault: Oh, no. We just needed you to state your name, so that -- so that we could hear what you were -- what you were saying when you were over there. Sundby: Oh, I'm sorry. Perreault: We will call you up when it's time. Thank you. Sorry. Sundby: Oh, I can't go now? Perreault: No worries. Okay. So, what we would like to do is we will start with this group and we would like to go as orderly as possible, so the individuals who will be speaking after him that did not raise their hands, but have an interest in that particular area, we would like to go in that order and Adrienne will be helping us keep track of that and the reason is is because staff will likely be pulling up different documents to refer to as we -- as we go through the process and so it makes it better for them if they are not moving back and forth between the files for the different areas that we will be discussing. Okay? All right. Gentlemen, if you would, please, come forward and state your name and the group that you are speaking for. Newby: My name is Ryan Newby and I'm representing some of the neighbors in Locust View Heights neighborhood. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 6 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 4 of 107 Perreault: Okay. Newby: And although we don't have a homeowner's association, there have been a group of neighbors that have asked me to represent them -- well, like minded I guess. Perreault: Thank you very much. Would anybody from Locust View Heights or interested in that application raise your hands tonight, please. Okay. Thank you. The same goes -- we do want to hear everything, but if you -- if you have -- only if you have something different to share, Ryan will be presenting that would be very helpful. Who is the next person? Oh. Please come forward. Lin: My name is Mindy Lin and I will be speaking on behalf of Stetson Estates. Perreault: Stetson Estates? Lin: Stetson Estates. Yes. Perreault: Thank you. So, who is interested in Stetson Estates or is here for that purpose, if you would raise your hands. Great. Excellent. Thank you. Did you get that? Okay. Next. Karnes: Susan Karnes, Meridian Southern Rim Coalition. I asked our members to sign in electronically. I can show their written approval to the clerk if that's necessary. I don't know that anyone's here. Perreault: Okay. Oh, great. Okay. Thank you. Karnes: Uh-huh. Perreault: That's all the larger groups it sounds like? Oh. Okay. Please come forward. Manwaring: My name is Ryan Manwaring and I'm representing a group from Meridian who have signed a petition. That was an online petition that was e-mailed to the City Clerk today. It's called preserving agricultural land in Meridian, Idaho. Perreault: Okay. Is it specific to an area that was mentioned in the staff report? Manwaring: This is a group of people who all live in -- in Idaho. It has specific reference to some of the land that's been flagged as industrial. About 150 signatures of people who couldn't be here. Perreault: Okay. Is that the -- the area that's El Gato off of Black Cat? Manwaring: Yes. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 7 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 5 of 107 Perreault: Okay. Is it -- is it different from the group that -- that this gentleman had -- it's a different group than this gentleman had represented? Manwaring: These are people -- other people who have signed this petition -- Perreault: Okay. Manwaring: -- have other concerns about this area. Perreault: All right. Thank you. We just wanted to get clarification to make sure we can get everybody heard tonight. Are we good? Okay. Great. So, anybody who didn't raise their hand and would like to speak, you're most definitely welcome to do so and we will do the very best we can to get through everybody's testimony this evening as possible. So, I will explain more about -- briefly explain more about the hearing process. We will -- we are going to have -- we are going to do this a little differently. So, I'm kind of adjusting my notes as well. The staff is going to make a presentation about the Comprehensive Plan and they will give the context, they will give a history of the things that have been done -- the activities that have been done, how the information came to be and who was involved in the process and, then, they will discuss what -- the plan itself and, then, they will talk about what next steps that we will be taking if the plan is adopted and, then, after they have made their presentation, then, the members of the -- that are speaking for the HOAs, we will go ahead and -- and go with them in the order that we -- that we have them here tonight. And, then, once that's done any individual person who comes up -- see, they will have ten minutes each and, then, any individual -- individual person who comes to speak will have three minutes each. There will be a little sound that will be made when your time is up to help us keep track. So, Adrienne, if you would play that, please. Weatherly: Madam Chair, I can only go as low as 15 seconds, so it will go off in nine seconds. Perreault: Okay. That would be a very quick testimony. I'm not sure we have had one that fast before. That's what you will hear when your time is up. Okay. So, anybody who is interested in -- in speaking, but has not signed up on the iPad in the back, would you, please, do so now? We are going to take that list from the iPad here just in a few minutes and we want to make sure that we have a comprehensive list, if possible, of everybody. So, if you haven't, please, do so now and once all testimony has been heard, it's possible that we will ask the staff to come back and -- and address anything specific that they need to address before we close the public hearing and, then, once we close the public hearing the Commissioners will have an opportunity to discuss and, hopefully, make a recommendation to City Council. Okay. So, let's get started. At this time we will open the public hearing for the new Comprehensive Plan, H-2019-0101. Hood: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, my name is Caleb Hood. I'm the planning division manager, at least that's what it says on the slide. I'm here with Brian McClure. He is a comprehensive associate planner. We both have been working on this project for about two years now. Not just us two. We will get into this, but there is -- it's Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 8 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 6 of 107 been a communitywide effort to come up with the application that you had before you this evening. Bill Parsons is also in planning and has played a role in this process, but he won't -- I don't anticipate him speaking this evening. So, it is my pleasure -- and as you mentioned, Madam Chair, a little different tonight, this is not just your typical development application. This has been something that -- that doesn't happen every month or every first and third Thursday of a month to bring before you a new long range comprehensive plan for the city. So, it's pretty exciting. We have got a lot to share with you. Our presentation will be a little bit longer than normal, but we have a lot of ground to cover. And, again, we are trying to summarize, essentially, a two year process in, hopefully, 30 minutes or less, but we do have a series of slides we would like to run through. I think just for the benefit -- for everybody's benefit, maybe just to cover what a Comprehensive -- Comprehensive Plan is. It is our vision for the -- for the -- for the community going forward. It's a long term guide that guides growth and development roughly over a two decade time frame and we will talk about that a little bit more. It's state mandated that all cities and counties in Idaho have a comprehensive plan that, again, sets these goals and policies and, again, have some more on what actually needs to be included in the conference plan, but it's its highest level. The city's Comprehensive Plan includes words and a map. Those -- those words and the policies in there direct that change, again, over time of your community and, then, you might hear people use the term FLUM or map, that's our Future Land Use Map. So, that -- that is where we envision a mix of different land uses to be throughout the city's area of city and impact. So, we have land use designations throughout our ultimate boundaries of the city. It isn't necessarily constrained by time and I got a little bit more on that as well. So, what's included? Again, text -- and that's primarily what we have been working on the last couple years is those policies that guide that growth and development over the next couple of years. So, the text is even broken down, though. We have a background to kind of tell a story and some narrative and, then, that's followed up with some policy. So, the background or the foundation for the policies that are in the plan. Most of -- Bill and his team use those policies, along with appointed and elected officials to review development for approval or consistency with the plan. It's also used by the community, again, to make sure that -- that those policies reflect the vision of the community over time. Those policies are new and that's why we have that in parentheses there. We did use the existing plan as a starting point, though, and we did an audit of that and went through the existing policies and we didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. We did say are there some things here that still apply to our community that are worth keeping or tweaking that better represent where we want to grow as a community in the coming years, the coming decades. The other element -- the main element, again, is the future land use map. I have got that as new and updated, because similar story, we didn't start from scratch on that or reinvent the wheel, we have designations on that map, so we use that as a base and when -- and said what -- what areas do we need to look at to potentially change in that and, then, the third one, which we won't talk about tonight, but it is a component of -- of the Comprehensive Plan, is the existing conditions report. So, that really has statements and explains who we are as a community today and I say today, we updated it in 2017 and we have changed since then. Roughly every three years we update that existing conditions report. So, we are on a cycle for probably next year or maybe the year after to update the existing conditions report, but it has things like our demographics, how Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 9 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 7 of 107 many fire stations we have, how many parks acres we have, those things are kind of, again, current and backwards looking and the text we will be talking about tonight is really looking forward about the future, but the existing conditions report, again, helps tell the story of who we are as a community today and into the future. So, as required by state law we address all 17 components and I think on the next slide I have a table that will show you all 17 of those and more and there were some other components and elements that came up as we went out to the -- to the public to discuss this plan. They are also represented in the plan itself and our revised area of city impact and we will talk about that as we talk about the future land use map and some changes there as well. So, again, that area of city impact is ultimate city limits where we overtime eventually envision city limits expanding to. But, again, there is no time horizon necessarily on that component, but we do plan for those areas. So, what's not included? And I think this is important, too, because sometimes this gets confused with zoning and annexation. This isn't an annexation or rezone of any real property in the City of Meridian. It does set that up for when that property owner or a future developer wants to annex or -- and/or rezone a property into the city, but this in and of itself does not change anybody's zoning, it does not annex any property, it does not take any property for any -- any purpose at all. But there are some changes proposed and we will get -- we will run through those to the future land use map and it's not code. That's another big one. There are no standards in here. It doesn't say you must provide ten percent open space, for example. That is a development standard and, again, what Bill and his team in current planning do is implement those standards in our unified development code or the laws of the city. But it is -- similar it is a foundation for code changes and updates, because if this is a vision for the community, we need our laws and our codes to reflect what that vision is. So, we do envision -- and there is more towards the end of the presentation -- on how this one form potential code change is going forward, again, using open space and amenities, because that's something we have heard consistency -- consistently and we envision changing some of those standards. But this does not do that in and of itself. There are some proposed changes, again, to future land use designations that reflect what's on the ground. So, nothing that we are proposing conflicts with an existing land use, first to say there is a commercial business, we are not proposing to put a future land use designation of residential over the top of that. That is not included in any of this. In fact, we are proposing to do the exact opposite and if it's commercial we want that reflected on the map that there is a commercial use there. And, then, finally, this doesn't cover everything that's not in the Comprehensive Plan, but some of the common ones that come up or are confused with -- with zoning or annexation. But, again, there aren't any roads or -- or dedications that are part of this plan tonight. So, hopefully, that helps with some of the misconceptions or misunderstandings. No infrastructure will go in after this is adopted. This set up for some of those further plans of the city. So, just a little bit of background. I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on this, but the current Comprehensive Plan was adopted largely in its current form in 2002. At least a lot of the policies and text of the plan is from 2000, 2001, 2002. Again, that was a multi-year process, but adopted in 2002. This isn't news to anybody, but Meridian has changed. Our population has more than tripled since then. This is a different community than it was 15, 16, 17 years ago. We did a major reformat and update in 2010, 2011, and that's largely what I explained on one of those first slides was we pulled the existing conditions report out and so the policies Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 10 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 8 of 107 that guide growth and development are in the -- the real body of the Comprehensive Plan and the existing conditions report as a standalone volume, if you will, of the plan. So, that was a major reformat and update that we did, again, about eight, nine years ago. But, again, this isn't the same community it was even a decade ago. Staff does update the -- the plan annually, at least touch it, and say, hey, how are we doing and a lot of that is done with departments and agencies. Have you -- you know, has anything changed? Maybe in recycling, for instance, or, you know, extension of sewer and water services, are there new policies that we need to include in the plan or remove or are bring to Council to update. So, we do that annually. But this is not that. This was a full-blown development of a new plan, again, with some foundation from the existing or the current plan, but this was developing a new plan. So, I think I have already talked about the two documents, one plan. Enough there. All right. So, just a little bit more on -- on one plan. I already mentioned because we have to and it's state -- state law says we have to have one and there is those 17 required components that must be in a plan on the right-hand side in the box. So, all those are addressed in the plan itself. Again, I'm not going to read all the bullets to you there, but the Local Land Use Planning Act of 1975 -- and it does start off this way. It starts with property rights. That's a big -- that's a big deal in state code. But, then, it lists all these other things that we are supposed to do. I do want to highlight some of the purpose, though, also of the Local Land Use Planning Act. It's to encourage urban development in cities. This is the City of Meridian. So, what we are looking is planning for an urban city. We are not planning for the county. This is a -- you know, some of our area of city impact and our planning area is currently unincorporated and rural. Our plans, though, reflect a future urban environment with city level services. So, sewer and water and parks and -- and fire and police service and those types of things. So, we are to encourage urban development within our planning areas and plan for that accordingly. So, more on that later. And, then, community visioning. I think we have done -- not trying to toot our own horn, but Brian's worked very hard on this with others on getting people to participate and bring them to the table, understand what's important and, then, have that reflected in -- in the plan. But we have had quite an extensive public involvement process and, again, we will -- we will touch on that a little bit more. That's part of developing a comprehensive plan. You have to do that. That's part of -- you know, we don't -- this doesn't just get developed in a dark smoky room independent of the public's comments. This is something that has been vetted through the public. Not saying it's perfect, but it has been out there and -- and comments made and changes made. Balance -- and, again, I said I wasn't going to read all those. So, hopefully, you made it through the rest of the list. But we don't plan because we have to necessarily, though, we think it's the right thing to do as well. That's the only thing I would -- I would add to that. All right. So, the scope of work. And this is largely the scope of work -- and I will get into a little bit more of how we -- we have made it through some of these tasks. But, again, we audited and reviewed our existing plans and studies to see what's still good and relevant in those plans as the base for this and we didn't just do that for our city plans, we worked with our agencies and other service providers, like ACHD, to understand where their plans are going with their CIPs and roadway improvements and those types of things. And, again, touched base, then, with our steering committee and focus groups and the public at large to make sure that those are still relevant policies and plans. A couple of things that we asked our consultant to help with and I will, you know, talk a little Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 11 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 9 of 107 bit more about the consultant help. But growth management. That's something that -- again, this isn't breaking news to anybody. We are growing, we are changing, and so we are trying to get our arms around what can we do -- how can we do that better? How can we manage that? How can we strategically grow and provide those services that people have come to expect by living in the Treasure Valley in Meridian in particular. So, we really wanted the consultant to help us develop some tools and some strategies to grow more effectively, if you will, rather than just randomly, you know, where ever and sort of be proactive in explaining where we would like to grow and how, rather than, again, reactive and, oh, we didn't know that that 120 acres was ready to come online next year. Are we ready to build a fire station down there to serve that? So, it was a little bit more -- again, more planning involved in -- in some of that. So, we asked them to help us with how can we do this better and look at the comprehensive impacts of -- of development approval and growth and change. And, then, transportation. Again, these kind of go hand in hand, but transportation and economic development -- traffic's getting worse. You know, those types of things. The -- having more choice in traffic and, then, maybe picking some corridors where we intentionally put more intense land uses, so we can support things like bus or a rail line -- like light rail or commuter rail or something or bikes, maybe having, you know, bike facilities that are robust and safe and people want to use them and pedestrians and those types of things. So, what can we do to, again, strategically look at corridors or areas -- sub areas of the city where we target certain types of land uses on specific corridors to provide a mix of different land use types and housing types that provide services and support for future residents. And, then, so more on this, too, but we -- we asked the consultant to help us with four particular areas that we knew about when we kicked -- kicked this project off that we knew were going to be topics of discussion and there is at least three representatives of those four. So, that makes me feel pretty good in that we knew that these need to be addressed. Now, how we address them you will hear from the public on if we did a good job of addressing them, but we at least knew these areas were ones that we should evaluate and touch and -- and understand. And, again, we will get into that, Brian particularly, a little bit more in the rest this presentation. Just kind of in summary on the scope of work. But transportation, housing, economic development, street design and character were really the biggest components that we looked at, that we really spent the most time on developing, because those are the ones we were hearing the most about having some issues currently. So, I will try to move along. So, we did hire Logan Simpson to consult with us on this project. The city issued an RFP request for proposals in January of 2018. We received three submittals. Logan Simpson was interviewed and, then, selected by a committee. You can see some of the tasks they largely helped us with. They did have some sub consultants. Leland and Kittelson helped on some of that transportation and land use corridor analysis I just spoke of and with public involvement largely and, then, helping to kind of set us up for success with the website and getting that up -- up off the ground, both over the past 18 months or so while it's been live, to engage the public and, then, also as it transitions to city ownership with the -- where the new plan is going to live, essentially. There were -- to kind of break this down, there are really four phases. I think I already mentioned the values phase, the vision phase, opportunities and choices and, then, the draft plan phase. We are kind of into phase five now, which isn't technically a phase, but sort of on -- that's really done largely complete with Logan Simpson. We did Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 12 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 10 of 107 have a steering committee that was, excuse me, appointed that met monthly that looked at this and drove this and made sure it stayed on track and reflected, again, the community. We can't talk to all 115,000 members of the community, so we really strategically looked at getting a team that we thought was a large -- could represent a larger community well. So, we had folks from all walks of life in different parts of town with different experiences and expertise serve on this steering committee and really what you have before you tonight largely is their recommendation. We do have some tweaks as staff that we are recommending changes to, but largely what you have before you tonight is their recommendation. There were four -- as I mentioned we focused on transportation, housing, economic development. We set up those focus groups and those focus groups met anywhere between three and five times outside of this process to really dig deeper into some of those issues and come up with recommendations. So, those are really subject matter experts. We kind of took a few members from the steering committee that had, you know, experience with real estate and we said would you mind serving on this or that had some background in economic development, hey, we would like you to serve and, then, we brought others in to create these kind of focus groups that would, again, dig a little deeper into our policies and even the map on making sure we had a good mix of uses. We also, then, coordinated with other internal city departments. So, just make sure, again, that everybody was part of this, understood where we were going with a comprehensive plan. It covers all departments within the city. Not a whole lot on Finance or IT, but for the most part most departments have some ownership of this -- of this document. And, then, again, I already mentioned it, but ACHD, Idaho Power, the school district, our surrounding cities and counties, we coordinated with them, too. Let them know -- wanted to understand where they were at with some of their planning, making sure that we weren't doing something that conflicted with -- with their plans -- land use plans or roadway plans and wanted to just make sure we were coordinating the best we could. I will just mention we had steering committee meeting -- steering committee members -- Idaho Power did not serve on the -- on the -- on the committee, but they were part of the process and we did receive some e-mail correspondence and we kept them in the loop, but I felt we had a pretty good representation as well of agencies and most of the time when an agency was represented that representative also lived in Meridian. So, that was great to have them kind of wearing two hats, if you will, as a resident and, then, also representing their agency. Public outreach. I already feel like I have been talking a lot and I know I have, but we did a lot here and I don't -- I don't want to just gloss over it, but I'm not going to go through everything that we did over the past 18 months to engage the public. It started last May or June. It still goes on today. But we were at many public events, town halls, workshops. We also would attend, you know, coalition meetings or neighborhood meetings when invited. Kiwanis clubs. Chamber of Commerce. I mean we -- we made ourselves available to folks wanting to hear what is this? How can we be involved? What -- what's going on here? I mentioned the website. We used the website kind of as home base for -- for getting some of that information from the public and understanding we had ten maps on there where you could post ideas and comments. Made the draft plan available there. A lot of social media engagement. We worked with the Mayor's communications office to -- to make sure we are using Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and NextDoor and all that to advertise and even do surveys with that to get -- to try to get people engaged. It's not that -- it's not the most exciting thing to Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 13 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 11 of 107 talk comprehensive plan. People have other things to do. We really did try to get people to care about it and I think we were pretty good. We had over 5,500 participants. I can't guarantee that those are all unique participants, so someone may have been at three or four events in a park, but we had a pretty good reach at a lot of these events, with the website and all those other things that I mentioned. So, we -- again, we haven't been trying to hide the ball, we have been trying to make it available and have this plan reflect generally what we are hearing from folks. I could spend a lot of time on this slide, but this basically shows those four phases kind of broken down with a little bit more detail of what we did kind of in months or quarters for the most part, but we really -- again, just to kind of show kind of how that -- those four different phases kind of played out over a two year time frame. So, the first real phase with that -- and, again, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time, but I think it bears explaining. We took the values that we heard from folks, what they care about and -- and developed some overarching vision themes. I'm sorry. Value themes. So, that's the -- the document that you have tonight is structured around these five themes and they have got supporting documents, statements, four or five each to basically further explain what that means to be connected, for example, has a lot to do with mobility and transportation types of components. So, how -- what's the vision for Meridian as a connected community and different ways to get around and move goods and services around the area in -- in our area of impact. So, again, that's how the -- and this shows that a little bit more. Again, you can see those five themes. In parentheses you should see each chapter and how that ties in besides the executive summary and the introduction part of that. So, again, we adhered from early to what you see now, basically staying true to what we heard from the community, at least at a high level, and even I would like to say with the detailed policies that are -- there is some 500 -- that really reflect these themes. So, just mentioned there is roughly 500 policies. Make sure I don't miss something on my notes here. And I'm not here to read them to you tonight. They are online. They are on the website. Hopefully you have had a chance to review them. But some of the -- the newer thoughts or repetitive things we heard from the community when we were out there that, hopefully, are prevalent in the new plan. You know, Meridian is family friendly and we are not trying to not own that, but we are also multi-generational. So, we want to make sure that the plan represents all are welcome, we are not just -- you know, you don't have to have a traditional family to live in Meridian that you don't have -- all walks of life are welcome and we have policies for you and we want to include everybody in this plan. So, it's not just about raising a family. We can be family friendly without being exclusionary. But we still do own and really heard from a lot of folks, hey, family is important. Make sure that is still prevalent without disenfranchising other families, even if they are just a single person living in a dwelling, so -- steps. So, currently we allow in our Comprehensive Plan a step up or down in residential density and that has -- we have taken a lot of heat for that and rightfully so, quite honestly. We won't use the example, but, you know, if -- if a property is designated one thing, you could either step up or down, which could create as much as a 15 dwelling unit per acre variance in what the plan calls for. That's not a plan at all. Pretty much 99 percent of Meridian is -- where it's residential is between zero and 15 dwelling units per acre. That doesn't help the community understand what to expect if it's going to be single family or apartments or townhouses. So, what we have done is take that away, so when we get to the map it is more important to understand what your designation is. If you're medium, we expect, as Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 14 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 12 of 107 staff, that it would be between three and eight dwelling units per acre. You can't step up to 14 dwelling units per acre. You can ask to amend the map and step down to one dwelling unit, but you can't just ask absent a map amendment. So, we are removing that from the text of the plan. And, then, we define the density just explicitly. So, if you are at 2.5 dwelling units, we can round that up to three and you would be compliant. If you're at 2.49, you are closer to two, you need to be at least 2.50 if you're medium on the map. So, we explicitly state that in the text of the plan and we include samples zonings in the text. So, if you're medium it says medium you can do R-4, R-8 and maybe R-15. I don't remember if we listed that as a sample zone or not. You still would have to comply with the dimensional standards and your densities would be within there, but we have included that in the text as well. So, there is a better transition from future land use map to zoning map, because those get -- again, people get them confused and overlap and so we are really trying to do a better job of saying if you have this designation here is what you can expect to get zoning for. So, that was something we have heard about -- even before this plan, but we have heard about from the community. Need for improved public involvement and neighborhood meeting process. So, increase collaboration earlier in the process, maybe even larger reaches. When we do postcards that go out to neighborhoods maybe do them 500 feet or something like that, but that was a constant theme that we heard -- you know, I didn't know that this project was going on just over there. So, what can we do to improve that process, to have that neighborhood and the developer work through some of these issues, rather than having you or the City Council sort of play referee. Hey, can we encourage more of this to happen collaboratively between neighbors, if you will, as this process is going on? So, that's -- there is not explicitly standards in this new comp plan about how we do that, but we are going to develop that and put that in our policies other places to make sure that that -- that gets improved. Neighborhood identity. And, again, I don't know what the answer is, but there is policies in the new plan about certain districts or sub areas within Meridian having unique identities and wanting to preserve that and protect that and see that expand with adjacent development to make sure that it all kind of ties together and so there is some neighborhood identities there. Again, I don't know exactly how that's going to play out, if that's certain districts within the city, if it's establishing neighborhood associations, if that's doing more specific area plans, what that exactly looks like, but we heard from a lot of people -- I like my neighborhood, but I'm concerned about what's going to happen next door. How do we make sure it's consistent and transitions nicely and all works together, whether that be landscaping materials or signage that says, hey, welcome to the southern rim or whatever that -- that case may be for that specific area. But neighborhood identity was definitely important to some people as we -- as we talked to them. I already mentioned strategic growth, so I won't dwell on that. But, again, if I had to summarize -- this is probably the biggest thing we heard from people. The rate of growth. The traffic. The overcrowded schools. So, we took that to mean we need to work -- we need to talk with them better. We need to share our plans, understand their plans. We need to coordinate those plans better to make sure we are planning to grow or they are planning the next school and vice-versa or growing, you know, they are planning the next school where we are planning to grow and the roads can be widened in -- in like manner. So, some of that -- and, again, I don't -- I'm not here with a map to say where we are going to target growth, but that's one of the mechanisms potentially is to develop areas where we Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 15 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 13 of 107 say the city encourages growth here and here and here. We are not ready to go there yet. We don't have the roads, we don't have the schools, we don't have the infrastructure ready to grow in this -- these areas or where ever that may be. So, again, being more strategic about where we want to grow. So, the right project, the right location, in the right time and premier. You know, most people are pretty proud of living in Meridian and they want to protect that and so we -- we -- we have some policies in there about raising the bar on development. Don't just get a minimum, you know, whether it be open space or lot size or whatever, the minimum is not good enough anymore. We need to be premier. And so raise the bar on some of those things going forward. So, again, I'm not here to say we are going to, you know, raise the bar to X amount of open space that's required with new development, but certainly that's the types of things we are hearing from the community. And, then, once you adopt it, stick to it. It's a guide, but generally follow the plan. We have a lot of people here tonight that have been part of this project -- follow the plan. Work the plan. Don't change the plan every month or every other month -- and we haven't, but respect the plan and what it is and what's gone into it. So, that's just kind of a high level summary of the things we heard. I'm going to let Brian talk for a little bit. I'm sorry this is running longer than I would have hoped, but I hope this is beneficial. So, Brian's going to do a little demonstration of what this document looks like on the website. So, if you haven't had a chance to play with it, this is something, again, that I'm pretty proud of, how user friendly it is, as long as you have a PC, but even on your mobile phone how it will shrink to the size of your screen and you can scroll and click and stuff. So, he's going to do just a quick review of what that looks like then. McClure: So, the -- the format of the new plan -- it's going to be a single document pdf. In years past we have had some more specific area plans where there is like each one's a separate chapter and you really don't know what chapter you're going into. So, the main plan is one single pdf. It is going to be a landscape format, because that works better on screens -- on large screens typically when you are viewing that for a pdf and, then, also works better in print. In terms of the website, that we are going to have a fully responsive -- we do have a fully responsive website now for this new plan. It works on large screens, small screens. The policies are fully searchable. I will demonstrate that. So, you can see here that the normal large screen format of it -- for example -- if the website works. Google Analytics. I don't know what that is. The translation tool in here is causing some delays. I don't know what that is. There we go. So, this is what it looks like on a -- on a widescreen format. Mobile screen format everything shifts. This is pretty standard now, but government's been slow to get here, especially with these larger documents. Policies. I -- these are -- these are critical for the Comprehensive Plan. It's how we implement the plan and we are going to wait on the -- we have -- the policies exist in one spreadsheet on the -- on the website. So, it's one place to update it, regardless of whether you are in the chapter sections or the table, the whole thing. Everything references one point. Errors are reduced. There is no -- no inconsistencies. There -- we are still waiting here. So, the plan is searchable. Should have tested this on the computer first. I apologize. You can see the website up here. It's -- it's live. It's been live. You type in something you're interested in. For example, I already -- all 500 policies can be searchable and it shows you what's relevant to what you are interested in. It works. It's all there. We tried to make this more accessible to the public and more accessible to staff Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 16 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 14 of 107 for that matter. You can search by topics or by the theme. So, education and -- education, public safety -- it's all there. It's also embedded in the individual chapters. Probably going to wait again. I won't bore you with that anymore. But the intent is it's all -- the entire plan can be viewed on your phone or on your computer. You don't have to download anything other than wait for the translation to work. Hood: So, our presentation this evening is kind of broken up into three parts and that's kind of the process overview, kind of first part of our presentation. So, we wanted to pause and just see if you had any questions kind of about, again, the high level overview of what we have done and got to this point. We do want to get into some more details on -- on specific policies and the map in particular, but we wanted to -- before we jump there we just wanted to make sure everyone's tracking so far. Perreault: Do the Commissioners have any questions for staff? None? Okay. McClure: Real quick in terms of transitioning. The final document there will be some cleanups for City Council that we are going to push their way. So, some of the -- the pdf has some inconsistencies in some of the themes and formatting. We are going to clean some of that up. Some of the pictures, expect some of those to change. Not all of them are printer -- printer friendly. They are -- they are pretty low resolution. So, we are going to be swapping out some of the photos and, then, there is some blank space in a few areas. We have some kind of fun quotes we are going to be adding those in as well. So, there will be some changes in the final plan from what you see tonight. I would consider most of them to just kind of be cleanup, though. There is nothing substantive and nothing having to do with the actual text or the policies. Hood: Fluff; right? Okay. Just to make it a little bit prettier and things like that, but nothing substantive. All right. So, then, onto the future land use map, because this is, honestly, what a lot of people care most about is -- is the map and what their property or adjacent property is -- is designated. McClure: So, most of the map has not changed. Many of the changes are cleanup types. Often -- and, for example, this is to match the existing conditions out there. For example, an ACHD storm pond, we have made that civic. Two churches next to each other, they had different designations, we made them the same. Clarifying previous -- prior development approvals where it was approved with a step, so we are now -- we changed the land use to reflect what was actually approved and not what was planned. We have also updated the existing and future facility icon. So, the schools, for example, reflect what West Ada School District is planning. There has also been some consolidation at some of the designations -- the future land use designations. Some examples there would be the civic in the Ten Mile plan to just be civic. So, it's just a citywide one icon, one color. We have removed a few, such as the pipeline easements or the park designation, which was basically how we used civic citywide. All these changes were reviewed by the consultants and vetted through by the steering committee. Generally speaking here -- I'm not going to claim that this map is the only way to get to where some of those policies say, but the aggregate of all of them, that the totals are what we were suggested to work Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 17 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 15 of 107 towards. So, the -- the sum total of all the residential designations and the commercial designations and the industrial designations that means something, even if it adjusts where it is sometimes. So, this is a summary of those changes. One of the big ones there -- and we will talk more about it later -- is the area of city -- area of city impact. We have removed quite a bit of area from our area of city impact. One of the designations bearing the brunt of that is the rural estate designation and we will touch on that later. We have also made a considerable number of cleanup changes. Again, those are things like an ACHD storm pond, a new school, things which can go anywhere, but once they go on -- once they go they are stuck there and they are not changing. General changes. The large bulk of these were contained within the -- some four specific areas we kind of looked at in advance. We will get to that more in a minute. We also had some steering committee recommendations -- recommended changes that occurred in here and we also had some property owner requests for changes that were considered in here. Some examples. That's a pretty big number there. It's not nearly as big as a no change, but it's still a pretty big number. Some examples would be The Fields area. That was one of the areas that we looked at. Overland and Eagle is an area that the steering committee recommended a change for. You will hear from the Rustler Place community tonight. The Stetson. Amity to Eagle area. The mixed uses there at that corner. We had -- they changed from one designation to another designation. The Cherry-railroad. The El Gato Lane area. You will probably hear from some of them tonight. Waltman area. So, that's northwest corner of Meridian Road and I-84, we had a change in there. Discovery Park area and, then, the West Overland corridor leading into Nampa. So, these are some areas that we had some pretty significant changes and it's actually the bulk of these changes. Most -- again, most of the plan we didn't change, though. One of the other changes we had was a -- what's maybe called a neighborhood center. It's an overlay designation. It sounds like a great idea, but since it's been added to the map it's not been implemented well or at all. Typically emphasize a commercial clusters on the half mile away from the busy intersections where we have also still allowed those busy intersections to have a commercial and so the viability of the neighborhood center overlay mid mile at it just doesn't work. There is no entitlements being taken away with that. Anything you could do in the underlying land use you can still do, we just have less requirements on them now. And, then, again, you can see the no change is the largest. I will just make one kind of clarifying remark. You will see the total area there. The actual proposed area of city impact is 37,903 acres. Less than what we have now. However, areas with actual fund designations is less. So, we don't, for example, have a future land use designation on the ITD corridor or portions where ITD has already bought right of way for the State Highway 16 corridor. So, we have an overall area of city impact and, then, we have a smaller area within it that actually has these designations. Just real quickly here to show you some of the examples of some of the cleanup changes. You can see here on the left what the adopted map looks like. Now you can pull that up on our website now and on the right you see that we cut out an area to basically mark the school location. This example here is a -- a couple different examples. The pink one you see there it says civic Ten Mile and we have removed the civic Ten Mile, but that example, the school no longer wants that either, so it's kind of two reasons for that change. So, it got absorbed by the larger residential designation around it. That one also has some entitlements on it. The gas pipeline easement, you can see that's been removed. Intermountain -- or Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 18 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 16 of 107 Williams pipeline doesn't really like that there and we already know where it is anyway, so -- and it wasn't shown consistently throughout the whole city. So, we are removing that. The park designation you see there, it doesn't actually follow the pathway master plan and it doesn't really serve anything, it's just not going to follow the pathway plan. So, we have just removed that, because it's only -- again, only been used within the Ten Mile designation. So, you can see the areas around that have just kind of been absorbed by that. What you see here are linked to the Comprehensive Plan on the scope of work. We had identified four areas early on for some of these changes. Again, these are some of those general changes that they made up the bulk of the areas that weren't left alone. You see The Fields, what we refer to as Magic Bridge, the southern rim area and, then, southwest Meridian. I'm just going to touch on each of these areas pretty -- pretty briefly here. Or most of them anyways. So, The Fields area is generally north of Ustick, east of Can-Ada, south of State Highway 20-26 and west of McDermott. The big initial things to note here is the Intermountain Gas liquefied natural storage plant. That is the area -- and adopted map where you see that industrial. It's kind of on the eastern end of that. We previously changed the designation for this facility to industrial as you can see, but this didn't go far enough. Intermountain Gas needs one quarter mile, a thousand foot'ish buffer around that, which extends outside of that area. So, they have -- not only is it a giant flammable storage tank, they have air raid sirens and really bright lights at night, which aren't great to live around. With the topography out here we -- which you can see on the right, we generally made the area around that industrial. The area south of that as MU-NR, that's mixed use nonresidential. Because some of that area falls within that radius there and because we don't want nonresidential uses behind residential uses, that whole area there is mixed residential. So, that could be basically anything but residential. State Highway 16 is the pink and white dashed line generally west of McDermott there. That's also worth calling out. This area is largely going to be separated from the rest of Meridian, much like south Meridian from north Meridian. So, State Highway 16 is going to be grade separated. You will have underpasses for roads like McMillan and you will have interchanges for roads like Ustick and Chinden and Franklin. This area -- there is a desire for it to be more unique and one of the conversations and requests we had -- one of the conversations and requests we had was for it to have its own sort of commercial node or center. That's easier said than done when you have a commercial on a state highway -- State Highway 16 or 20-26 corridor and, then, also the -- the natural kind of commercial you are going to want to have around it -- a high school, which you can see down on the lower southeast corner. That's under construction now. What's -- what's proposed here is that mixed use center. We are trying to keep that commercial center condensed, walkable. It's not stretched out with an automotive kind of focus along the whole length, for example. It's meant to be a neighborhood community sort of commercial center. So, we also, to support that, increased some of the residential densities around it to meet the -- the market analysis said that we need to have more rooftops. This is an area that needs more work to be realized. Pathways, park and transportation all need another level of effort here. Most of this area, however, will require a new lift station to actually develop. That will have to go on the far western and on McMillan and Can-Ada Road. So, three quarters of this can't be developed until that lift station is there. So, we are not in a huge rush to do this, but we do need to -- we do need to work on that at some point. Some of the other things that could go in to help -- help support the vision for this Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 19 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 17 of 107 would potentially be architectural guidelines, specific landscape elements that are requested. Other figure -- other elements to help really build a neighborhood identity. This is kind of consistent with what we heard citywide, but this area really kind of needs that special touch. Overland and Eagle. This is an area that we had not initially planned on touching. However, we had a request from some property owners out here and the steering committee thought it was a good idea. This area is generally east of Eagle Road, north of Overland Road, west to the Ridenbaugh and south of I-84. You can see most of the area there is not changing. The -- the big obvious area is a green going to the mixed use regional color. So, those areas are generally known as Jewel and Rolling Hills Subdivisions. Staff -- staff is -- staff is supportive of this change. We are not recommending any changes here. However, given the rapid speed of development of commercial properties, speculation, and acquisition and high visibility in the -- in this area, there are some concerns with the proposed mixed use regional land use designation absent of some additional planning work. Staff is concerned with the county enclaves and transportation network expansion and access, service and utility expansion and connectivity and potential provision and identification of other services, such as parks and pathways, in order to support the higher intensity uses and in general -- just general redevelopment equity. There is a high degree of opportunity for fragmented services and development that could exacerbate transportation problems we already have out here. Overland Road is planned to be seven lanes and it's in ACHD's capital improvement plan. This area should be considered holistically and together to make sure that we don't have any redevelopment issues. For example, if one property redeveloped sooner or later than others, being put in a position where we have to grant them direct access to Overland Road in a seven lane configuration so close to the busiest interchanges in the state. Staff will be asking Council to consider this area for some priority for additional work, but not to the land uses. This is the last one I'm going to touch on for a few minutes here. This is the southern rim area. The southern rim is defined largely by the ridge that runs northwest to southeast through Meridian. In Meridian that's basically at the Ten Mile interchange all the way down to the golf course. The Boise Ranch golf course. Early on in the process this area has been identified in terms of looking for some opportunity for some view estates. So, maximizing and making use of that ridge. The consultants and staff were unable to find a lot of consolidated large areas for that to occur, though. This area, nonetheless, remains distinct and there is a great deal of opportunity for next steps and other work. There are some notable changes in this area, but most of the changes are the cleanup to reflect what is already built and entitled or to areas adjacent to the rim. A couple notable changes are to the Simplot property on the northeast corner of Amity and Meridian Road. That is going from mixed use nonresidential to mixed use community. Similarly for the property to the west and, then, for some of the land uses around Mary McPherson Elementary School, which does have some elevation and some view opportunity. This area may benefit from next step as well with policy work to include additional architectural guidelines, open space consider -- considerations, neighborhood districts and other policies. One minor note here. On the left adopted map you're not seeing that NC overlay there. There are some NC overlays in this area that are not being proposed to move forward, but they don't fit with all the labels here, so -- I'm going to turn this back over to talk -- to Caleb to talk about the southwest Meridian area. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 20 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 18 of 107 Hood: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I'm actually going to talk to -- a little bit of the southwest area, as well as a designation we currently have on our future land use map for rural estate residential. On our current legend, which you can see on the bottom part of this slide, bottom left, you see the lighter -- lightest green there, rural estate, and, then, the proposed is on the right. That designation -- what that means is five acre minimum lot size in that designate without city services. So, Public Works is not planning to provide sewer and water to those areas that have the rural estate residential designation. I'm not going to say it's all because we added that designation to our map back in 2012, so this is something that -- that is relatively new to the city as a rural estate residential designation. We have only had it on the books in roughly seven years. But as you can see on the map on the right, we have lost a significant portion of that area that was designated that to Kuna, because they have services available and can provide sewer service in particular to that area and so there were some property owners, when we talked to them in 2010, 2011, that said, oh, yeah, I'm going to keep my farm forever, I want it to be a farm, and now they are subdivisions in Kuna. So, this designation has not served the city very well. That's -- so, that's one reason is we -- we -- we weren't really fooling anybody, including ourselves, by saying we can preserve that. In reality we can't. If it's not Kuna it will be Nampa, because there is going to be development pressures someday to develop that to something more than a minimum five acre lot with septics and wells. So, again, I'm kind of tackling two related topics at the same time, because the only place we use that real estate residential designation is in this general area in southwest Meridian. You won't find it in northwest, you won't find it anywhere else in our area of city impact and, in fact, if this is adopted as staff proposes you won't find it anywhere in our city. In fact, I'm going to try not to repeat myself, but, again, we are planning for urban level densities. That said, the low density residential that you see proposed, you can still do a one acre, a two acre, even a five acre lot would still be allowed in that low density residential designation. It's not prohibited. It's just not the plan. That's not the vision the city has is that a bunch of five acre lots would go out here. The plan is, then, for -- for Public Works to run sewer, water, parks, commensurate with land use densities that are -- that are roughly, you know, one to two dwelling units per acre, up to three. So, it still can be low density, but just not that uber low, if you will, that rural density. So, that's something that we, as staff and the steering committee, really recommend, because, again, preservation -- if we really wanted to preserve that area as rural we should relinquish it from our area of city impact and work with the county to say, county, you preserve it as that, not be in the city's planning area, because our charge is to plan for urban services, not rural county services. So, that could be an option. I mean if you wanted to recommend that we remove this area from our planning area and relinquish it back to the county and encourage them to preserve it as 40 acre farms, we can do that. Now, we can't guarantee that that will happen over time, but if you really want to preserve that as ag rural land, that's the way to do it, not through the city. The city does not have the tools in place to preserve rural or even encourage rural into the future, so -- and this is not changing anything. So -- I don't know why it does that every so often. This -- this really is just to show -- and I'm not going to dwell on this either, but we could have some policies -- you know, we could -- we could -- we could say on our map, boy, we only want rural everywhere in Meridian. The reality is it's going to still be desirable to build in our valley in this region and if we just push the development to Kuna or Nampa or Eagle, they Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 21 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 19 of 107 still are going to come through Meridian. We are the center of the valley. If your issue is traffic to say, boy, you shouldn't grow anymore, guess what, there is a certain amount of homes that the market says should be absorbed in this general metro area and you are going to push them to another city and that traffic is still going to flow through Meridian. I'm not saying that's a reason we should have a plan, I'm just saying if you -- our end goal is to solve traffic in the center of the valley to preserve these rural areas, large expansions of rural areas over time -- and, again, I'm not talking in the next 20 years, but, ultimately, it's going to be urbanized, because of our location in the metro area. So, again, rural estate we just don't think serves our -- our needs. And, again, we largely think -- there is a need for estate type lots, no one is disagreeing with that. This designation -- the way we do that is not this designation, though, is the recommendation. So, this kind of ties into the next point and I have already sort of alluded to it, but we are change -- proposing to change our area of city impact, that planning area. You can kind of see on the map on the right the area that's cross-hatch -- I hope you can kind of see some of that. But those are lands that Kuna has already annexed. I alluded to that previously. And we have been working with them over the past years, but most recently we have made some -- some real progress in that and we have agreed to this boundary, basically, as our planning boundary and letting -- letting Kuna develop those -- that area and, then, Meridian on the other side. So, again, for largely the reasons I just explained, as well as they can provide those services better than we can at this point in time. We were proposing to amend our area of city impact in -- in the southwest. So, that's, again, kind of pause on -- on two of three of our presentation. We are going to keep rolling, though, unless someone raises their -- their hand here. McClure: So, as a general rule of thumb, the steering committee recommendation, the proposed plan is what you saw in your packet, is the plan. We are trying to respect that. We are recommending a few text changes and most of these actually came from the steering committee members just after the fact and we thought they were good. I'm not going to go through all those changes, they are in the staff report, but we do have a few highlighted for you here on the screen. Most of them do occur in the executive summary. We do have one policy being recommended to move. That's because it just didn't get caught and it was basically under the wrong goal and, then, we do have one new one regarding fire station planning and locations for that. We are going to move into map changes now. Again, that -- generally staff is trying to support the steering committee recommendation. However, there are a few areas where alternative recommendations or requests are proposed by staff. Some of the staff recommended changes are the result of active neighborhood participation request after -- after the steering committee made a recommendation. Other changes are being proposed large because staff believes circumstance warrant an alternative recommendation that is more feasible in alignment with the overall vision and responsibilities -- emphasis of the plan. This is what we are referring to as Magic Bridge here. Generally that area is east of Locust Grove, north of I- 84, west of Eagle Road and south of Franklin. This area is diverse in land use, age of structures and infrastructure. It suffers from poor connectivity among city and county subdivisions. There are a number of proposed changes in here. Staff is generally in agreement and aligning with those in the eastern portion. There remains one specific area of concern that we have in the western portion. That neighbor is the Locust View Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 22 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 20 of 107 Heights neighborhood. It includes a few smaller ones, too. This older county subdivision has no vehicular outlet towards Eagle Road or connectivity to Woodbridge, the subdivision to the north. The land uses consist of largely one acre lots, each with their own well and septic systems. This neighborhood fronts both I-84 and Locust Grove, which has signal -- a signalized access on Bentley. Early on in the plan development process the project team, helped the neighborhood and like some other county subdivisions, would be interested in redevelopment long term. That would be to maximize the location and visibility and potentially selling for higher value in the future. While there were some stakeholders that were interested in that, by -- by and large the far majority of them were not. With this property being located in the city's area of impact we must have a plan for providing urban level of services, an opportunity to address service issues, to improve connectivity and to provide new opportunities to capitalize on our synergies with healthcare related education and employment was explored with stakeholders. From the services standpoint, the important concern here is how this subdivision will be part -- be part of the city some day. Individual well and septic systems in such a close geographic area is not sustainable long term or in anyone's best interest. Maintaining these systems on one acre in such close geographic densities are a long-term liability and staff is concerned and does not feel it is the city's best interest for existing city rate and taxpayers to subsidize any cleanup in the future. Residents in Locust Heights were generally, again, opposed to any future land use change or services or any change, really, to their way of life. It's easy to understand why. They are secluded, but near everything. While staff can understand stakeholder concern -- concerns and the difficulty in contemplating a change that may be several properties down -- several property owners down the line. There was limited recognition of long term service concerns for the city's responsibility to plan for such services or for the liability and risk with these services. Staff is proposing a revised concept for this area, which reflects the consultant recommendation to the steering committee. This recommendation will allow for the long-term redevelopment opportunities, much like Portico, which would have to pay for a mediation of existing well and septic systems, for services and to provide for greater local conductivity in the area. In exchange greater intensity uses near the interstate would be allowed. While transitioning to the less intensive adjacent uses. Parks and trails need to be considered after adoption in the area as benefits and for the master planning if a greater vision was desired along this corridor. Long range redevelopment of this area is the only option that can transparently support that addresses the service concerns and for the long-term health, safety, and welfare of the public. This is not something that these stakeholders should have had to deal with or should have had to even have a knowledge of, but it's an important discussion that we had openly. The county approved this subdivision a mile from Meridian Road without any concrete plan for future connectivity or services. There are some good lessons here and I will just quickly go through it. So, on the left you will see the adopted plan. On the right you will see what the steering committee recommended and, then, here is what staff and the consultants recommended. The next area is Black Cat, Cherry, and the railroad area. This area encompasses -- is south of Cherry Lane, east to McDermott and west of Black Cat and north of the railroad tracks. The current proposal is to change a substantial amount of land planned for low density residential to industrial, to remove the mixed use neighborhood from mid mile on Cherry to the southeast corner of McDermott and Cherry and to change the map to reflect existing Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 23 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 21 of 107 residential subdivisions adjacent to Black Cat Road there from medium -- from low to medium. Market analysis determined that there is a need to designate more lands in Meridian's area of city impact for future industrial uses. Even today industrial land is in short supply and the city often struggles with missed opportunities and employment opportunities due to the limited availability. Industrial land with rail access is even more limited. The rail in this area and other planned industrial areas nearby -- this area was identified as a location where future market demand could be met. In essence -- and if these five acre parcels seek to rebuild in the city, as others have, the city should seek commercial uses here, rather than increased residential densities. Staff believes that this concept has some merit. The future extensions to Highway 16 to the west and planned industrial uses to the west and southwest in Canyon county, may drastically shape the look and feel of this area long term. Some of the industrial planning up along the rail -- south of the rail is heavy industrial. Nampa has several examples of these industrial facilities, which have impacts that are far larger than their -- their footprint and so that's a concern. The staff recommendation here has some additional transition offices along Black Cat into the industrial area. It's along Black Cat. This makes for better use of existing topographic features, while providing opportunities for ancillary employment and residential support of land uses in some of the oddly shaped remaining low density residential there on the left. And both the staff and steering committee recommendations, the large mixed use area to the north is reduced in overall size and moved over to the southeast corner of McDermott and Cherry. This is in closer proximity to the future regional park there. So, again, here you can see what's adopted on the left. The snapshot on the right is what city of Nampa has planned adjacent to them. Perreault: Brian, can I ask a question about that really quickly? On the -- the proposed land use for Nampa, what is the blue line that's running along McDermott and, then, over to the west? McClure: I don't actually know. I can pull up their map here in a few minutes, so -- actually, I should get into it now. Perreault: Are any of these areas along McDermott in the Nampa city limits currently or is that just their -- all their area of impact? McClure: So, their entire area of impact is not the blue line. I can say that. They do have -- they have annexed areas along McDermott further to the south. I don't believe this is annexed yet, though. I think this is just future designations. I can pull their map up, though. We do have that saved, if you are interested in seeing that now. Perreault: Commissioners? Seal: That would be a good point to know. Perreault: Okay. Go ahead if you would. McClure: And you -- Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 24 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 22 of 107 Perreault: I'm sorry? McClure: Go ahead and what? Perreault: Pull that map up. McClure: Okay. Perreault: I just want to -- I'm trying to determine what the distance is from their city limits and how soon some of these uses might go -- might actually be -- and how soon the properties could potentially be annexed in the city of Nampa. McClure: So, the blue line is their specific -- a specific plan area. Perreault: Okay. McClure: And I don't see their city limits there, but I know they have annexed area closer to the freeway as -- as commercial. Perreault: Okay. I was hoping they would show their city limits. Okay. McClure: So, on the left you will see the steering committee proposal and, then, on the right are just some adjustments by staff. The last area I'm going to touch on before transition to Caleb is the Rustler Place area. This area is currently designated on the future land use map as low density -- or medium density residential. This designation has existed since the 2012 south Meridian plan. In talking to those residents it doesn't sound like any of them were involved in that work, but that's when that land use was applied to that area. After the steering committee made a recommendation with this plan and after we did the work in this -- in this southwest area, some of the neighbors became aware of the plan through a development application -- tentative development application proposal on the northwest corner of Linder and West Amity and, then, became engaged in the process and very interested in its land use designation. They have submitted several letters and a petition for a change to this area. Their request was for their rural estate residential. Staff is not comfortable supporting that, because we are removing it, but we were and are supportive of changing that designation to the low density residential. So, on the left you will see the adopted map and, then, on the right you will see what staff is recommending. Again, this came through after the steering committee made a recommendation. Hood: So, we did want to daylight a couple of requests that were made that we aren't recommending. This isn't comprehensive -- a comprehensive list. I do want to just first say that we took all requests seriously, but we can't put commercial on every corner as is requested and we can't -- couldn't accommodate every request that was made. So, did just want to highlight for you a couple of -- so, this list -- again, it's not exhaustive, but there are some areas -- for example the Wastewater Resource Recovery Facility area. So, Ten Mile-Ustick area. There is a buffer, if you will, around our wastewater treatment Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 25 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 23 of 107 plant with a nonresidential designation. We have talked with some property owners in that area and our Public Works Department has committed to reevaluating that -- that specific area for potential future land use map changes in the future. They want to -- there is a big head works project, a clarifier project up on the northern part of that property. Once that's done they have committed to doing a new noise and odor study and, then, we will have a better idea of what downwind, if you will, impacts will be and potentially opening some more of that area up for residential. But it's premature right now. So, for the most part -- and we will end on this slide here in a second. This map we want you to take seriously and, again, follow the -- work the plan. The plan we think is solid. If someone comes in in a month or two and wants to change the map, staff is probably going to not recommend that change, because we just went through this process of coming up with this plan. However, the Wastewater Resource Recovery Facility, our wastewater treatment plant, that area will probably propose something in the next 18 months or something as some land use changes out there potentially anyways. Same with Star. Star has adopted a comprehensive plan just a couple few months ago and they are proposing an overlap with our planning area. W e need to sit down with Star and get on the same page with them, so we don't run into some similar issues that we have historically with Kuna and just understand planning boundaries and respect them. So, there may be some changes to that coming up. We did get some -- some conversations about some amenities in parks. You don't see any text in the plan. That's kind of being addressed maybe through different avenues. Kind of similar to strategic plan components. Maybe the Comprehensive Plan isn't the most appropriate place to address things that specific. Not that it's inappropriate, but putting the need for a BMX park potentially in the -- in the Comprehensive Plan doesn't necessarily make it so. So, we are exploring. That's more -- Wells Street. I think you will hear some testimony tonight. This is -- this is actually within that area. Brian mentioned there at Magic Bridge. So, this is a sub area within that. We have been working with a potential developer there on some properties there. Kind of similar to the last point. It's just been sort of last minute, some requests that they have that -- that may be -- maybe it's appropriate, but staff wasn't comfortable kind of 11th hour making that change. But there could be some -- some slight tweaks to that designation potentially as well. And, then, again, we heard people want to include standards or explicit details about how property should develop. That is not this plan. It's not code. We can't -- we just can't put those types of requests in there. But, again, it will lead to some additional code changes. So, after adoption -- and this has to go through the City Council still and make it through you this evening, hopefully, but, then, the real work begins. We are going to start again working the plan, implementing the plan, so we will be back to you and talk to you some more about, hey, there is 500 policies and some of these specific areas that we could work on, but it's -- and this side of the division in planning it's Brian and I. We can't do all those things simultaneously. So, we are going to need some help. We are going to need to delay. We are going to need to prioritize. We are going to need to understand what we should do first and kind of have a strategy for implementation of the plan. So, we will bring that back to you. But that -- those -- those projects to work on -- largely we want that direction of the new Mayor and City Council. If you haven't heard, there is going to be a shake up at the Dias and we will have a new mayor and three new council members and so we want them to direct staff on what's most important, what should we be working on and the timing works. We Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 26 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 24 of 107 will adopt the plan and, then, take the plan to -- the elected officials and say what -- help us figure out what -- you know, direct us to what we should do first, so -- but we are going to vet that through the Planning and Zoning Commission. So, staff will come up with a recommendation similar to a development application or this tonight, we will devise a strategy, if you will, talk to you all and say -- and Brian's kind of already alluded to some of this -- some of that. The development pressures along Eagle and Overland and I-84, they are here now. It's happening. We need to get -- we need to do that now or we are going to miss the boat. The Fields. Important, but we might be able to wait, because there is some serious infrastructure that needs to go into place there before we will probably really see development out there. So, those are the types of conversations we will have. We know we need to change open space and amenities. We are already starting to work on that, but we want that to be reiterated by -- by new leadership. Yep, that is important, go do it. We are already starting the wheels spinning on -- on some of these things. So, again, some of those things listed there -- some of those sub area plans and what we should work on going forward and, then, finally, we are going to submit an application to Ada county. We will get into all of this, but the way that it works is the county basically is the keeper of everybody's comprehensive plan and they adopt it and they help you, essentially, bring that vision to reality. So, all the cities work with the county and the county sort of -- don't want to use referee, but they sort of, you know, make sure that there -- there is some consistency and not a lot of overlaps and those types of things. So, we will do that as well. I think, Brian, you are going to cover this; right? McClure: So, the text and -- the text and policies, especially this is -- this is the community's plan, it's been in development for two years. There has been extensive public involvement on the front, middle, and back end for all that work. There has been a market and quarter analysis that's fed into the prime development and partner agencies have been involved and coordinated with. We can't do what everyone wants, especially when you have so many differing views and opinions, different goals and objectives, but we have tried and even when we haven't been able to do that we have listened. Our request tonight is that you approve this Comprehensive Plan, the -- both the text and the map as proposed with staff recommended revisions as noted in the staff report. If you have any modifications after public testimony, we would just ask that you, please, be clear in that direction. Perreault: Thank you, Brian. I have one question for you. You mentioned a couple of text changes and I didn't know if those were -- to the executive summary and I didn't know if those were already in the staff report or if we need to reference those in a motion when we make one. McClure: Madam Chair, the -- the text recommended change -- the changes recommended in the texts are in the staff report. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Do the Commissioners have any questions for staff before we proceed to the public testimony? Holland: Madam Chair? Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 27 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 25 of 107 Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: Just one more clarification question. If we -- after we listen to public testimony and deliberate, if we were to recommend approval of the plan with the conditions in the staff report, would we be adopting also the staff recommendations for the plan areas that you have just gone through as well? McClure: The staff report reflects all those recommended changes, yes. If you don't want those, then, we would just ask you to indicate which ones you don't want. Perreault: Okay. Thanks. Any questions? Thank you. Okay. At this time we will proceed to take public testimony. Adrienne, I think you have got us organized, so if you would, please, introduce the first person who is signed up to speak. Weatherly: Madam Chair, to clarify, you want to start with the community groups first; is that correct? Perreault: That's correct. Weatherly: Okay. The first one to speak will be Charles Sundby with the El Gato community. Perreault: Please come forward. State your name and address for the record, please. And you will have ten minutes to speak. Sundby: Charles Sunday. 6155 West El Gato Lane. Thank you for the opportunity to offer the public comment. Public participation, as you all know, is an important part of this and I will try to make my comments brief, but to the point. On October 7th, 2019, a petition was submitted to the city clerk by Gloria Beattie and myself on behalf of and in cooperation with the residents of El Gato Lane and in the immediate vicinity. This petition had 81 signatures and the main point on the petition is that it was expressing our opposition to the proposed land use change on the draft future map in the El Gato vicinity from the existing low density residential to an industrial use and I might like to just make an aside at this point. It was mentioned that the area has a planned use for low density residential. This is a fully developed low density residential area. All of these lots are developed and they have been that way since it was platted in 1975. So, what we are looking at here is imposing a change in land use on top of existing land use and that's -- that's what -- one of the main considerations we have. The staff report identified that the area is difficult and contentious as the existing county subdivision on El Gato is strongly opposed to the industrial future land use change and have expressed a desire to remain low density residential. That is very true. The petition identified -- that we submitted on the 7th identified five areas of concern, that the proposed land use change does not consider existing development. It does not protect private property rights. It does not preserve farmland and it does not adequately address public comments. Additionally, we felt that it did not recognize that there could be other suitable areas for industrial development that really are not looked at. Just happens to be imposed contiguous to the Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 28 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 26 of 107 Ten Mile interchange planned industrial, et cetera. But there -- we think there are other areas. Supporting information from the text and the comprehensive document was provided in the petition for each of these five items. So, there is text attached to the petition that supports the contention of those five items. The principal concern is that the proposed action conflicts with a key principle expressed throughout the entire Comprehensive Plan, namely, the protection -- the protection or retention of existing land uses, existing approved use, and existing facilities and being respectful to what is on the ground today. The staff report affirms this principle in three statements on pages two of 14 and 25 and I would also say that the presentation tonight further affirm that, because there were several comments made and bullets in that presentation that stated that you were going to be protective and cognizant of existing usage, imposing an industrial use on top of a well developed, fully developed, long term existing legal subdivision is not protecting property rights. Additionally, the staff report acknowledges that the existing process -- properties are in demand. As a matter of fact, three of these properties have sold right directly around my home in the last year. We have new neighbors that have been there for three months. They are young couples with families that want to have the opportunity to live on a five acre parcel where they can have horses, et cetera. What I took from the presentation was that this area in the Meridian development area wishes to reduce or eliminate five acre parcels. I think that's tragic, frankly. I think you need more of them. But what it speaks to, because we do have them, is that they are going to be valuable, because they are going to be limited supply. The -- excuse me. The report further states that this change reflects an opportunity to be something else in the future if -- if and when higher and better market forces suggest -- suggest industrial commercial opportunities. The report also asserts that the look and feel of this area may be altered by development of planned industrial uses to the west and south in Canyon county, which presumptively could trigger a desire for residents to move. There is a -- so, there was one thing I wanted to point out on the map that was shown relative to the Nampa industrial area and the proposed El Gato industrial land use. Those are not lined up. The area of El Gato Lane area is north of the Nampa industrial use area and, in reality, the land area that's west of El Gato on the west side of McDermott Road, between McDermott Road and the future Highway 16 right of way is St. James Subdivision, which is a fully developed low density residential property with significantly high end homes on it. There has been some homes that were just built in the last year that are very -- very nice indeed. So, looking from -- if El Gato is industrial, looking to the west there is a low density residential subdivision that I don't think is going to go anywhere, because it's not in -- shown as industrial in the Nampa planning. The need for industrial land is, of course, derived from extensive analysis and collective expertise of your planning team. I do not in any way, shape, or form question their expertise, nor their conclusions. What I do question is the need to designate the affected area as industrial at this time. The staff report uses language such as follows: Future. If and when. Long term. Ultimately. It's entirely possible it may be decades from now. Something else in the future. Very abstract, but long range. These words really speak to the crux of the issue. That is that the imposition of the industrial land use designation on the affected area may, indeed, be a legitimate action at some time. Sometime in the future. No matter how good or how strong our expertise is, they cannot predict that future. No one can reliably do that. There is much uncertainty relative to the actual demand for industrial use in this area. There is numerous Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 29 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 27 of 107 impediments, some of which were mentioned. These impediments include the land acquisition, rezoning, infrastructure -- very big one. Understand there is no water and sewer. Without water and sewer there you are not going to be doing industrial. That's a big -- a big hurdle. State Highway 16 construction itself, which specifically might relate to the I-84-Franklin interchange and -- because that will be part of the driver of what Nampa may or may not be doing. Private property owner opposition, which is significant. Uncertainty relative to what the actual demand for industrial is and timing. So, I think it's safe to assume that the -- the long-term optimistically in this case means ten to 20 year time frame. The reality is you're going to be doing your comp plan again in ten to 20 years and things at that point in time will be a lot clearer than they are now. So, the real -- the point here is that there will be -- if you make -- if you proceed with this change and you impose the industrial land use category on top of the existing residential, there is going to be an immediate impact to the affected area associated with this proposed change, which will be negative to more than 30 existing property owners. There will be a dark cloud resulting from the future industrial use designation, which, without a doubt, will affect the marketability, enhanced value of the existing properties to the detriment of the existing property owners and I assume this is an unintended consequence if you're looking to the future, but the immediate impact will be negative. So, in conclusion, it is premature to implement this land use change in the affected area by adoption of the proposed plan. The crystal ball is too cloudy. The impediments are significant and will take many years to overcome. The current land use designation of low density residential can remain in place with no long-term detrimental impact to the integrity of the Comprehensive Plan or subsequent planning studies that relate to that and derive from it, such as capital improvement program planning, transportation planning, et cetera. It's a relatively small area when you look at the -- the entire area to be encompassed and serviced in and around this long term -- or the industrial development. So, what our request is really -- is don't take an action that has an immediate adverse impact and a negative impact on current residents of this community. Retain the low density residential land use in the current future land -- that's designated in the current plan -- land use map in this area. Do not make the change that -- that is in the staff and the steering committee report. Thank you. Perreault: I just wanted to clarify one thing. My understanding from the staff presentation is the city has no -- no problem with the five acre parcels. That's not -- that's not at all the concern. It's -- it's the -- the city's planning department is intended to plan for something that's -- that's smaller in size and more dense and so in that regard I understood the city to say that rural designations, if they definitely are intending on staying rural, maybe we need to have a conversation about, you know, whether they stay in the county in -- and out of the -- the Meridian area of impact. So, I think what was trying to be communicated was that -- and for clarification I'm sure you know this, because you have studied this quite a bit I can tell -- is that none of those use -- none of the uses in your area are going to change, unless one of the private property owners makes an application to the city to be annexed into the city and so the city will not come in and make those changes on their own volition, it's going to be made -- if one of the property owners chooses to annex into the city on their own choice and so I just wanted to clarify that, because I wanted -- I wanted you to know that they are not -- that their proposal is not indicating that five acre Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 30 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 28 of 107 properties are not desirable or that the city is trying to remove those from -- from the city services or anything like that. Sundby: Well, my comment came from the statement that we are looking at an urban area and the urban area implying smaller parcels and such and I think there was one of the example areas is an area of five acre parcels had been changed to lower density. So, it kind of caught me off guard, because that's what I was thinking. Perreault: No. I understand. I saw the difference -- I saw what -- I hear what you are saying and -- I heard what you were saying and I just wanted to -- Sundby: Okay. Perreault: -- make sure that you meet, because what they are basically saying is the rural residential as a -- as a Comprehensive Plan future land use area is really indicate -- is really an area that -- that is currently mostly being serviced by the county and that the city planners and city services are going to be required to service that area if it's annexed into the city and the city isn't designed to manage rural areas, it's designed to manage urban areas. So, I think that's all -- Sundby: A sidebar to this relative to the El Gato area and the five acre parcels that are there. The covenants for the property, which were approved in 1975 when it was platted, did make some provision in there for resubdivision into one acre parcels -- Perreault: Uh-huh. Sundby: -- so, you could say, well, gee, we -- we all of a sudden wouldn't want to be looking at this as a -- as an industrial area when all of a sudden there is more development there. The county will no longer allow those parcels to be subdivided. So, whether it's five years from now or ten years from now or 15 years from now, the El Gato Subdivision is still going to be five acre parcels and it's going to -- and it's going to look that way unless the city takes an action to -- to annex it and change it, which could be driven by, yeah, if -- if the assertion in the staff report is right and some things happen in Nampa, the Nampa industrial area, or in the -- the Ten Mile interchange industrial area that may adversely affect the desirability of living here, people could get together and band together and approach the city and say we would like to make a change. But if that -- in the absence of that, it's going to stay the way it is and ten years, 15, 20 years from now if you need that industrial area that your professional team says you might, you're still going to have the same opportunity you do today. So, that's my -- that's one reason I'm saying is you don't really need to make this decision now, because there is -- by leaving it the way it is you're not going to have any detrimental impact to the integrity of your -- of your plan. Perreault: Okay. Thank you very much. Sundby: Thank you. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 31 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 29 of 107 Perreault: Was -- there is another gentleman that had signed up to speak representing this -- the same area. Is he here? I believe -- yes. Would you, please, come forward. State your name and address for the record, please. Manwaring: Ryan Manwaring. Perreault: Okay. Ryan. Manwaring: 950 North McDermott Road, Nampa. Perreault: Thank you. Would you make your presentation? Manwaring: Yes. Just to clarify, I am not representing the residents on El Gato Road. I may live there, but the group I'm representing -- this is a group of individuals who live throughout Meridian who are starting to become aware of your plans for El Gato Road and they have some concerns about that. Perreault: Could you tell us whether most of their questions for us or for staff would be geared towards the El Gato area? We are just trying to sort of do the testimony by geographic areas, so that -- Manwaring: Yes. Yes. Perreault: Okay. Manwaring: I just want to be clear. I know when I first came up you were like -- I don't know what this -- shall we let him represent some -- somebody else that -- Perreault: No. No. Not that. We are fine with that. We just were trying to organize it so that -- that we are talking about each area and -- and to keep the same -- Manwaring: Okay. Awesome. Perreault: Thank you. Manwaring: So, yeah, I will describe this group that I'm talking about. So, like I said, these are residents throughout Nampa and now all of a sudden they are just being aware of what's happening over on El Gato and they have concerns about that and they are saying, whoa, whoa, we didn't realize that this was happening and slow down, Planning and Zoning. Hold on a minute here. We -- we are still uniting and gathering more support for this. Right now we have about 150. We have only been on -- having this post on social media for about, you know, three days now, so we are continuing to grow. We are just saying slow down a minute, let's -- let these -- some of these other people have some input and so some of these individuals are -- they come from diverse backgrounds, diverse ethnicities, nationalities. Some of them have some disabilities. Some of them are single parents. Some of them are parents raising children with neuro developmental Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 32 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 30 of 107 disabilities. Okay? They have some -- their concerns are going to be a little bit different here. I will describe why. So, there is value in having agricultural land in Meridian and, preserving it. Not just for those of us who live on the land, but we serve the community in some other ways. Okay? We have people from all over Meridian and other areas coming and they might have some 4-H animals. Some of these individuals they don't have the -- the ability to -- you know, to have a little farms themselves or to have a place to keep their -- their 4-H animals and so that's something that we are able to -- that they are able to do on El Gato for this community. Okay? They come and pick fruit here on El Gato. They love -- enjoy the wildlife that's there and we are all -- they are just realizing about his right now, because when this plan came out it was -- we assumed it was, oh, it's open and they are taking a lot of public comment and so we didn't worry about like, you know, uniting and getting together until a few days ago we realized all -- all these comments from El Gato have somehow been ignored. W ell, let me clarify a little bit here. My group is concerned that you have these other groups, Rustler Place, Magic Bridge and when concerns came up from residents there, there was some -- there was some type of meetings and they made changes based on the concern. They actually listened to the people in that area. Well, that never happened in El Gato. I'm not sure why, but like we didn't have any meetings. We have had many many, you know, concerns. We have put them all up there, but there are no changes based on our concerns and we are trying to figure out, well, wait a minute, what's going on and so my group is now just becoming aware of that, even though they don't live directly there and, yeah, they are -- they are very worried about this. A few comments that you made. Rural estates don't serve our needs. I believe that was the words of Brian here. Rural estates don't serve our needs. So, maybe they don't serve the -- like they -- they don't provide as much tax revenue that you might have from these industrial complexes. We can't, you know, grab as many people into these -- these places, but if you have looked at our nation, we are headed for a little bit of a -- you know, a food problem. We are developing development -- developing more places for people to live, but what's happening to the land for -- for people to grow, you know, food on, that we are -- that we are going to eat. Where is all that -- where is all that headed? We are just going to keep pushing it out farther and farther; right? But we do need food and we need a place of refuge where we can go and enjoy our -- our animals and -- yeah. I noticed that you are not even looking at me in the eye right now, you're looking down at your notes and -- I'm right here and -- great. Great. We are -- and we are people. We live here and we would love for you to acknowledge us on our concern. Perreault: Sir? Sir? I'm sorry. Manwaring: Yes. Perreault: If you wouldn't mind addressing your -- your thoughts to the Commission, as we are the ones that will be making a final decision this evening -- or a recommendation I should say to City Council. Manwaring: All right. I will go on here. We -- let's see. He said we have got to respect and follow the plan. Well, we don't go with the plan right now. We -- we don't want to get Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 33 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 31 of 107 caught -- tied into it and, then, not have to follow it later on down the road, since this is a foundation for code changes in the future we are not okay with that. This sets up further planning. We don't like how we are being set up. We are -- we realize that these lot -- these hobby farms don't fit into your plan, but they are a part of residents of Idaho's plan for Idaho. This is a big part of our history, our roots. Many people live here because they love that they can get access to the -- to this -- to this area, access to the agricultural opportunities here, even if they can't have it right on their -- their property they love it. They can go down the road and come pick peaches, you know, at my house, so -- and, then, you mentioned that we can't preserve this area and we can't guarantee that it will be preserved. So, one of the issues when you -- when you hang up a sign over one of these areas that say, by the way, it could go industrial in the next ten or 20 years. Well, what does that do from prospective families -- or people who would want to buy it and use it for agricultural use and raise their family there for the next 50 years? Do you think they might go somewhere else? Do you think they might -- they might be scared away from that? They don't want to take the risk and so, yeah, you can't preserve this. If you -- if you put a sign over -- over this property and say, hey, it could go industrial, people don't like taking risks when they buy -- when they buy houses; right? And so in order to preserve this we have to increase the incentives for people who are willing to -- to take on this amount of work and it is a lot of work; right? It's not easy. You know, I -- I work two jobs and, then, I come home and do this -- work on our land and, you know, it's -- it's a lot of work, but we love it. This is a -- a way of life that we want to preserve this for our kids. There is -- we love to work the land with our hands and to take care of animals and have kids out there from the community, seeing how we take care of these animals and -- and grow food there and there -- there is a lot of value in that and we don't want to have to send, you know, our kids farther and farther out to be able to have these experiences. Agriculture is a huge part of this community and -- and we want to preserve that and it's been grossly underrepresented in this plan that, you know, preserving these -- these -- these types of small farms. These are very, you know, financially lucrative when you're doing these small hobby farms on a small scale you don't really make money, you do it because you love it and we have to preserve -- we have to allow people who are interested in this to -- to continue to come and buy these homes and take care of them for -- for many many decades after and, then, Ms. Jessica Perreault, you had mentioned -- it only gets annexed if someone buys a house and, then, petitions to. So, in order to preserve it we have to encourage the -- the right kind of mindset to the property. So, you hang the sign out there and say, hey, it could go industrial. Well, who is going to buy it? Someone who does have intentions to take cash out and sell it for industrial uses. So, by -- just by having the plan up there you are increasing the chances of someone buying the property, then, cashing it out to industrial and so -- and we lose, you know, another one of my neighbors -- that property around us and slowly less and less people are going to want to buy into this lifestyle with that -- with that kind of planning, so -- our group wants this to be taken out of -- either leave us the way we are as low density residential or, you know, take this -- this part out of -- out of the plan, out of the city plan all together and keeping it in the county. So, thank you for your time. That's all. Perreault: Thank you very much. I promised the -- do the Commissioners have any questions for this gentleman? Thank you very much. I promised the Commissioners that Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 34 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 32 of 107 we would take a break every couple hours. So, we will take a quick five minute break and be back here just a few minutes after 7:30. Thank you. (Recess: 7:29 p.m. to 7:37 p.m.) Perreault: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would all take your seats we will start the meeting again. So, for the folks who are sitting in the lobby, I don't know if you all can hear me. The folks in the lobby, there are some extra seats here on the left side of the room, so nobody has to sit out in the lobby if they don't want to. There is plenty of space to come into the -- into the meeting room. Okay. Let's get started. So, there were a few individuals -- is that me? Sorry about that. Technical difficulties. There were a few individuals on El Gato Lane that had signed up prior to our meeting starting this evening. So, we are going to have them come and speak next if they choose to do so and, then, after that we will ask for a raise of hands for who would like to come and speak. Again, we want to reiterate that we would invite you to only share things that are new that we haven't already heard from our prior -- a prior person that had testified, so that we can move through everything very succinctly. Adrienne? Weatherly: Madam Chair, I show a Gene Bray. Perreault: If you would, please -- G.Bray: It's my 88th birthday and I can talk to -- Perreault: Please come up to the microphone and state both of your names and address. Bray: Yes. This is Gene Bray, who resides at 56 -- or, yeah, 5654 El Gato and I am Christina Bray, his daughter and just speaking directly with the guidelines that you had requested. I want to be very brief, but there -- I wanted to speak specifically about the neighborhood identity and with his property in particular. He has quite some documents here showing how he has added trees and increased the environmental quality of his property. It has been designated by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game for almost 30 years as a posted site. It has been an excellent habitat for game birds, such that Boise State University professor had his research conducted there as of around 2009, banding endangered animals, specifically barn owls and so all of this area is very special and really to point out to you all that -- that this neighborhood identity is really significant. It is a gem and my father and his neighbors would love if any of you all could just stroll the neighborhood to get the sense of how beautiful this area is. Thank you very much. Perreault: Thank you. Ma'am, if that -- if that is something that he wants the City Council to see before their meeting, you can provide that to the city clerk and they can make sure it goes in the public record, if that's what he chooses to do. Bray: I appreciate that. And, yes, he would -- yes. Thank you, ma'am. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 35 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 33 of 107 Perreault: That goes for the same -- the same for everyone here. If you have something that you brought with you that you want to make sure that it's seen by the public and by City Council before their hearing you're welcome to provide it to the city clerk. If you are able to do that at a later time, other than tonight, that might be more efficient as well. Adrienne, who do we have next? Weatherly: Thank you, Madam Chair. I showed Jane Byam. Perreault: Okay. Byam: Jane Byam. I live at 6050 El Gato Lane. I wanted to point out that on pages ten and eleven of the Appendix E of the Comprehensive Plan there is a graphic entitled what do you love about Meridian. It contains a lot of responses referring to open space. Perreault: If you will stop for a moment. This is very unusual, by the way. We rarely have these kinds of challenges with the microphones. It's like it knew we were going to have a huge hearing tonight. Okay. Byam: Try again? Try again? Anyway, on -- on that -- in that Appendix E of the Comprehensive Plan, the graphic entitled What Do I Love About Meridian has several responses specifying farmlands -- farms and ranches, farming and small acreages and, then, in my Meridian value summary found in the Appendix E of the Comprehensive Plan on page six there is a graph charting the responses of the online survey entitled what should be improved and the most desired improvement is the preservation of farmland. Another point I wanted to make is that it's been suggested that the proposal for the area north of the railroad tracks between McDermott and Black Cat be changed to industrial from its current classification of low residential, because more area will be needed for industrial development in addition to what's already designated for industrial south of the railroad tracks. Might I suggest that not all industrial entities require rail use for transportation of their goods. There are other areas elsewhere in the area of city impact away from the railroad tracks that already have an industrial classification on the current FLUM that could be used or expanded with little or no additional impact to current residents and still would be close to I-84 or the State Highway 16 access if that is extended. For example, near the Intermountain Gas storage area near Ustick and Can -- Can-Ada that was mentioned, that area could be expanded to take on some of that industrial area that doesn't need access to the rail corridor or area south of the freeway currently classified as low density residential could be considered. The area near Ten Mile and Overland could be on the south side of the freeway and there could be considered for some of the industrial area to pick up the slack there. As, Mr. Sundby said, the staff had stated that the proposed changes may be decades from now. May I, please, request that in light of this, that any change to the current adapted FLUM, especially that of the area including El Gato, be postponed and reconsidered for evaluation when the possibility of the anticipated industrial development become closer to a reality. I attended a meeting last week with representatives of those working on the state highway extension and it was stated at that meeting that four to five hundred million dollars would need to be gathered in order to complete that extension and that currently only 90 million needed to Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 36 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 34 of 107 purchase the right of way has been procured. Land purchases are yet to be negotiated. Please do not make decisions that have a real immediate potential for negative -- negatively affecting our property values on El Gato based on maybes, what ifs, or possibilities of things that may happen decades from now. I also wanted to speak to the -- the annexation. While we recognize that nothing could be implemented until El Gato was annexed into city limits, those of us that live on El Gato would prefer that there be no public record of the intention of industrial use on El Gato for -- because that does have the possibility of damaging our property values as possible future owners on that -- on our street could look and see public record saying this is what the City of Meridian sees for our future and the Canyon county assessor's website shows the city limits -- the current city limits of Nampa being Star Road south to Franklin and south to the freeway. They do not come over to McDermott north of Franklin. So, just for your information. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you very much. Weatherly: Madam Chair, I show Robert Dennis. Dennis: Thank you. Robert Dennis. My residence 5858 El Gato Lane, Meridian, Idaho. I am born and raised, lifetime resident of Meridian, Idaho, as well as my wife. Looking at the Comprehensive Plan and that, I appreciate all the time and effort you have taken in the consideration and for the most part what I see that it falls pretty much in line with what the county has done and how the industrial growth is going. We are directly affected on that aspect of it, because my wife's current family, Azumendi Farm Investments, LLC, and Azumendi Farms are in their third and fourth generation of farmers. We are in that path of industrial because we are agricultural. We recognize that. We know at some point in time that is going to happen. But our contention right now is there will be no consideration on our part to sell that property until infrastructure is fully developed and on our properties. Part of the I-16 on and off ramps is a vital part of that. So, my real issue is is the timing and the time frame that development goes, because I think we can look at the Ten Mile development from the time it started that Mayor de Weerd did in the development today and if you take that into consideration the growth along Franklin Road, that projection, which you can't project, nor I, but it's going to take a considerable amount of time for procurement of the properties and that and for that development to occur. So, my biggest concern is -- with El Gato Lane is it really that urgent to consider it industrial at this time. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you. Weatherly: Madam Chair, Jon Anson is next. Anson: My name is Jon Anson. I'm at 6220 West El Gato Lane. I'm at the west end of El Gato, corner of El Gato and McDermott. I want to mention -- mention the quality of life and conservation of the open space. One of the things that we provide -- and we all do this willingly and we do this because we want to -- is we -- we have a farm environment and we provide a lot of serve -- in open space to -- to Meridian city residents. When Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 37 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 35 of 107 you're are out there during the afternoons -- especially in the afternoons during the summertime, but during the rest of the year the number of walkers, bikers, and horseback riders is very very high. The traffic on our street is amazing and I know the people are coming from -- actually come from the City of Meridian. If you -- by keeping us as a -- as a low density residential, you will be maintaining that quality of life not only for us, which is what we are asking for, but also for the city residents -- City of Meridian residents are coming out and using our street and we are doing that willingly. I have a horse boarding facility. I have six -- up to 16 horses, 14 this week, and many of my clients are coming out of Meridian. We -- I'm doing that. We have people on our street that go through and do -- that raise -- raise sheep for 4-H and these are being sold for the Meridian residents. We have the bird sanctuary that has been talked about. We have many people raising cows for food, which is going into our food supply. People are raising hay to support these activities. All of this is part of the rural environment that's part of the quality of life for Meridian and we request you don't rezone us at this point to light industrial. We wish to be -- to stay as our -- as our rural low density residential. I know you have provided a couple alternatives and some of those look very -- are also possible by returning us into the county that would work, too. But we request that we stay right where we are, low density residential, because we are providing services and you are taking those services -- not away from just us, but taking those away from many of the city residents that -- that take advantage of our property. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you very much. Weatherly: Madam Chair, that's the last person I can identify by address alone. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else here to speak on this application -- or this -- excuse me -- on this section that has something new to add? Okay. Ma'am, I think I saw your hand. Please come forward. Please state your name and address for the record. Smith: My name is Tammy Smith. I live at 5255 West Pine Lane. I would also like to propose that the industrial does not -- the designation does not go forward, that we remain low density residential. The number of wild turkeys that cross my property is a valuable resource. The number of owls that reside in the trees on my property and in the adjacent properties, the wildlife, there are coyotes, birds of prey, if we can protect those animals with our laws over the city, they should also be protected in our community. We are -- are flanked by high residential neighborhoods that do like to come and visit the serenity of the five to seven acre parcels that we provide. I work with children in foster care. Those children are exposed to a different quality of life through my property, through walking the neighborhood's properties. We also -- I feel that this would be very short sighted to make a judgment tonight. As we have heard it's very far sighted and we are looking to the future. All of the properties are self maintained with their own sewer, wells. There is not at this time a need for the city to step in and alter anything that's going on right now. I do think that just with the animal habitat protection, as well as keeping Meridian one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. to live in, there have been times when with work I needed to relocate. I chose to keep my children in Meridian city limits. I'm sorry. In the Meridian Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 38 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 36 of 107 School District. The quality of life is worth protecting. The quality of life for my children, as well as every child in the Meridian School District having access to open spaces, trees, farm animals. The children that live in a subdivision just need to walk 200 yards and they are in a country setting, fresh air. They could see a wild animal run across the road or look at a barn owl above head. That's worth protecting. I know that the bigger urban picture is inevitable. Maybe within the next hundred years there is going to be very limited space. Once you commit something to change, it's inevitable. You have to protect what you have. There is not a need or a requirement at this point. So, I do not see why we would move forward in haste. There is going to be plenty of time in the future. Once you relinquish something it's not easy to get back. This is worth protecting. Thank you. Perreault: I think I saw one more hand. Yes, please come forward. Twait: Brian Twait. 1200 North McDermott Road, Meridian. And thank you, Madam Chairman, for hearing us tonight. I appreciate it. And thanks for really serving the community. I know this is not always the funest job to have and thanks to all the residents hanging out here listening to us complain about our issues. But I wanted to just say something. I have been here -- moved -- moved to the valley -- first job out of school was out at Micron. I have been there for 25 years. I have had lots of opportunities to move around with Micron, different job opportunities, different places to go. I have turned down a lot of them. In fact, I have turned down every one of them, because every place I looked, whether it was down in Lehi, Utah, or Santa Clara or down in Dallas area or Austin, none of them had what I have here. I have this little cute little hobby farm where I can raise my kids, but I can be close enough to get to my job and still function and earn a living, but have a -- have a life and, you know, one of the things that makes Meridian unique is -- is the way it's been configured and the way it's kind of organically grown like this. The very reason why people are moving here are these kinds of things and if we get rid of these kinds of features we have within our community, we are going to be just like everyone else and I don't think we want to be like Salt Lake City. I don't think we want to be like, you know, Santa Clara. I don't think we want to be like those. We are different. There is a reason why people are coming here and so I think it's important to preserve that. A lot of people have opportunities to go other places. Like I say, we loved it so much we came out here when we -- 19 years ago at our house with two kids, we liked it to so much we decided to have five more. So, we have seven kids. It's a great place to raise a family. I got a bunch of taxpayers coming up for you guys later, so that's what we are trying to do. So, hey, we should keep these things as they are. I really appreciate it. I would recommend that you leave the land as -- as designated as rural residential. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you very much. Let me just say that we know that every one of you would like to speak and we do appreciate those folks who have foregone their time for the benefit of the other members in the room who would like to speak about their areas as well. So, we appreciate that very much. Okay. So, that being said, I think probably we have covered all the testimony for that location. I think -- I believe the next person we had was Ryan Newby? Weatherly: Correct. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 39 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 37 of 107 Perreault: Is that right? Mr. Newby, would you, please, come forward and speak on behalf of -- of your group. Newby: My name is Ryan Newby. I live at 1710 Bentley Drive and that's in the Locust View Heights Subdivision. Just like -- Madam Chairman, like to thank you and the other people on the board and Brian McClure. He's been very helpful along this process with and for us. Magic -- excuse me. Locust View Heights, quintessential rural Meridian neighborhood, it is a wonderful place to go. We grow gardens and raise livestock and enjoy a quality of life in Meridian, how Meridian was originally started and we enjoy that. When Dairy Days comes around it means something to us. That livestock and that -- that family atmosphere that Meridian is all about is what we live each day in our one acre parcels in our properties and what we would like is to remain R-1 low density rural one acre properties and we -- we learned correctly from Brian McClure earlier that the steering committee recommended this also. Our neighborhood spoke and as indicated by Brian, we almost unanimously and mostly all of us want to keep it as it is and we enjoy what it is that we choose to live in that rural society and the rural community and we recommend -- we hope that you take our recommendation to keep it R-1 low density rural one acre properties and we understand that the staff recommendation is to change that designation, but these are some of the reasons we would like it to remain just the way it is. We did see this map, the steering committee recommendation, and current zoning as is what we support and that's the green area that we saw before. The planning committee recommendation new proposal is what we oppose, to change the R-1 designation. Because of our current zoning designation we are able to enjoy wide open spaces that are nearly impossible to find in -- in our rapid -- rapidly growing community. We don't want to have roads built over the top of us and businesses nearby and -- and more cramped land space and living areas in our -- in our community that we choose to live in. It's wide open spaces, mature landscape, and homes provide a natural greenbelt between the freeway and other residential areas in our mile block that creates the green zone for our community and our area. It provides space for growing families to enjoy outdoors and teach experiences, rural work ethic. It allowed natural habitat to flourish. I would like to share a quote for Mitra Mehta-Cooper. She is a current Ada county community and regional county planner -- excuse me -- planning manager who spoke at the Meridian City Council meeting on September 17th and she said, quote: We need wide open spaces to provide a quality of life. There are safe -- that are safe for families and they provide housing options that are less than a half an hour away from all. Providing natural rural locations among this growth is challenging, but much needed. End quote. Our neighborhood is hopeful to continue this vision by keeping our neighborhood intact as is. There is a financial impact to this as well. We believe that if the proposed zoning designation is adopted the integrity of our neighborhood will be compromised. As properties are eventually sold, the current quality of life will diminish and this in our -- in our area is -- well, speaking for my wife and I, we have four boys and on that property that we have and the house that we currently live, was originally purchased by Wynn Christensen, my wife's dad, in 1971 and there has been four generations that have lived in that house and we hope to continue to live there and raise our family and grow gardens and teach them how to work and -- and we -- we desperately would love this, as well as my neighbors who are behind me. We chose this way of life. We chose this way to live. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 40 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 38 of 107 Many of us have horses and goats and chickens and dogs and cats and -- and share food with each other and neighbors and our -- as was mentioned before, we share our neighborhood with other people. People walk through from -- from Woodbridge, come over and walk in our neighborhood and the people from the West Ada School District enjoy our neighborhood as well on their lunch breaks walking through it. My wife and I have been in our home for 17 years and prior to that her family have always lived there. Because the -- we recently -- we recently had our home appraised just to see what the value of it would be knowing this was coming and we know the resale value of our home and if we were trying to replace our home at a different location with identical selling price, acreage and square footage, our monthly home costs would be more than double of that of what we are currently paying and this is due to several different reasons. You have city taxes, HOA fees, higher interest rates, variable differences of one time -- first homeowner exemption that would contribute to doubling our mortgage payment, not to mention our difficulty to find property like ours close to town. As a parent in the height of raising our children, this would create unique financial burdens. We have goals for our children to -- to attend college and serve a mission for our church and -- and do those things and these things would be compromised as those funds would -- that we enjoy now living where we live would be likely taken if we replace what we have now somewhere else in Meridian. These are some houses that -- similar acreage and similar things that we have with regard to square footage and room and the homes and this -- these are 64 percent more than what we pay now and, then, as you can see these aren't extravagant homes. These aren't homes that are out of bounds with regard to extravagance and those types of things. Nevertheless, they are what's available as we do a cross check of -- of those houses that we could get into in a similar situation. Safety is another concern. There is redeeming qualities about our neighborhood. Because it's not a through road -- there is no through roads, this allows us to enjoy privacy and safety and lower crime and that allows our children just to play and walk through our subdivision. We have grandparents and grandchildren who live in our neighborhood that run down the road and go see grandma and grandpa and back the other way vice-versa and one of those grandmas is here tonight. Many, as I mentioned before, residents from other neighborhoods enjoy our neighborhood. What we hope is -- is that we can maintain that continually, understanding the safety to be a concern, we know that there may be a need later for residents to enjoy -- and to continue to enjoy that, have an opportunity for emergency medical and fire to come through, similar to what was done in Woodbridge -- excuse me -- between Magic -- Magic View and Greenhill there is an emergency access only road. We would be totally happy with that, to have an emergency access only road that has a barrier up and that's totally fine. We can get by that. Similarly Greenhill Subdivision has, just like we do, they have -- the water is all theirs, since they are not hooked up to city and the sewer, they have their own tanks that they do, just like us, and they are, curiously, not being tagged as a community that would be a target of what we are having to deal with now, although in the past there has been conversation of that. So, we would ask that the construction of a collector connector road is not something that we wish to invite into our neighborhood to provide the safety that we enjoy and the continued number of activities that we can have not having so many people run through our neighborhood the way it does. Our subdivision is largely made up of people who have -- and throughout their lives been educators and military servicemen, hardworking citizens Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 41 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 39 of 107 that had their pay -- their -- excuse me -- their houses paid off for a lot of years and one in particular there -- there was one person in particular in our neighborhood who took a look to see how much it would be for them to get into an apartment and it would be 75 percent of the total monthly income for residents to -- that they right now receive just to get a small apartment, which is another financial impact that we would be -- we would be going through. If a road was able to go through there would be a big impact to dozens of houses in our neighborhood that would displace families and put them in financial situations that they may not be able to enjoy the quality of life that they do now because of those impacts. Tying it up, as I only have 20 seconds, Locust View Heights, we are currently in the county and we are R-1 rural zoning designation. We want to remain intact as is. We ask the City Council to grant our request and the steering committee's recommendation to leave our community as it currently is with no changes. Furthermore, we ask the City of Meridian to do as they claim, to continue to provide, protect, and save our neighborhood and our homes within it as a family centered community. Perreault: Thank you. Just a quick question for you to clarify. Newby: Yeah. Perreault: Do I understand correctly that you were comfortable with the steering committee recommendation? Newby: We are -- we are comfortable with the steering committee recommendation, because they had us as an R-1 rural designation. W e are not comfortable with the staff's recommendation to change that designation. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. And so do you -- you -- can I ask quickly -- I know you had a lot of personal examples that you drew from, but this is really something that's on behalf of your neighborhood. Okay. Newby: Absolutely. Perreault: Okay. Newby: Our situation in -- in -- in -- in a lot of -- in a lot of cases -- not everybody by no means and I hope that they come up and share their thoughts as well, because I don't represent everybody. I don't. There -- there were a group of -- there were a group of -- of our neighbors that asked me -- whose views were the same and to -- we are in similar situations -- to represent them in the way I spoke, but it doesn't represent everybody. Perreault: Thank you. Newby: Yeah. Perreault: And -- and is -- if there is not anything additional to share on their part, we -- we are good. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 42 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 40 of 107 Newby: Yeah. Perreault: Do you understand that? Newby: Yeah. Having only ten minutes is -- is tough, but -- Perreault: I understand. Newby: Yeah, anybody that opposes or is -- is in favor of that surely welcome to come up. Yeah. Perreault: Okay. Thank you very much. Newby: Thank you. Perreault: Okay. So, there -- I saw a lot of heads nodding and a lot of people who had raised their hands that Ryan was going to represent them. Is there -- is there anybody that would like to come and speak that has something different to say than what he presented this evening? Okay. Please come forward. Please state your name and address for the record. Daly: Robert Daly. 1155 South Torino Avenue. My family and the members of the subdivision, Locust Grove Heights, that live in the area, look at -- Perreault: Sir, apparently there is a few people that are having a hard time hearing you. So, if you could come forward and -- Daly: Excuse me. Is that better? Perreault: Thank you. Daly: All right. So, not this, but we are ready to look at -- what the consultant recommended where a portion of the subdivision were to go commercial, the other would remain -- would shift to a more mixed use, we strongly support that. So, as opposed to these folks saying they oppose it, we support it. We think it's the right thing to do. Growing up in Meridian, went from 5,000 people to now it's over 110,000'ish, depending on who you believe. I have seen what happens in Meridian. So, doing nothing for the next 20 years with that particular area is -- it can't be a strategic plan. Doing nothing for a 20 year period is not how to succeed. That never has in history. It hasn't done it in history here in Meridian. So, bear in mind that we are not unanimous in the subdivision and there are a number of us that are very strongly supportive of entertaining that thought. That's all I have. Perreault: Apologize. See what you can do. It's so convenient. No, it's not your fault. It's just -- it's how it goes. Okay. Please step forward. Thank you. Go ahead. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 43 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 41 of 107 Daly: That's all I have, so I had any questions -- Perreault: Oh, okay. Daly: -- go ahead or I will just be seated. Perreault: Okay. Thank you very much. Daly: Very good. Perreault: Please come forward, sir. Fox: Alan Fox. I live at 1840 Cadillac Drive. I moved in in '71 into the subdivision. I had foxes, I had pheasants, I had raccoons and I had quail coming through the property all the time. To this day now with all the -- with all -- everything's gone, I still have quail coming to eat and that's it. Everything else has lost its home and we have one hawk roosting in one of the big trees. So, you wipe out our subdivision, you're wiping out wildlife. Perreault: Thank you. Okay. Please come forward. I'm sorry, as -- we have to pick up everything that's said in the microphone for the public record. So, just come forward, please. McKinley: I'm sorry, I'm not very good at public speaking. I should be on the list to speak on the computer. Perreault: Okay. Go ahead. McKinley: Okay. My name is Monica McKinley. I am at 1080 South Torino Avenue. I am on the -- I don't know how to work this. So, would somebody -- Perreault: Could you speak into the microphone, ma'am. McKinley: Could somebody pull this up for me, so that I can at least see my house here. I would like to talk to you about is it necessary. What is the purpose for the change of -- of our neighborhood? Almost everything else in the -- in the plan was not changed, with the exception of our neighborhood and a couple other little spots and my question to you is -- is why? I would submit to you that there is a motive on the part of Mr. McClure and Mr. Hood to -- to -- and he admitted so today that they had -- they had been working with the developer with the Wells Street, which is the street which is -- well, okay, I can't -- I can't work that. Anyway, the Wells Street, which is -- which is in that portion right behind our subdivision right here -- can you -- can you see that? Okay. Right there. So, basically, the plan does not represent our neighborhood. It doesn't support us. He had asked for collaboration earlier on in the process, but we, as our neighborhood, heard nothing before February. With the city encouraging growth he sat there tonight and said that our neighborhood is not sustainable long term. I would like to ask why. Every single Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 44 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 42 of 107 person in our neighborhood has been there for the majority of 20 years or more. We are responsible for our own wells. We are responsible for our own septic. The reason behind changing our designation is why. There is no reason to change our designation from -- from R-1 to anything else. There is nothing else. We are all on single acreages. This -- like the other gentleman in the other -- for El Gato said why are we changing this? There is no reason to change us from a designation of R-1. We -- there is -- if you change us now we can't go back. What happens -- you have got -- there is three -- there is three members here that we are going to have an election in -- in a month. They are in a hurry he said tonight to get it done before -- before it's too late. Well, what happens if it's too late? Does -- does this not get approved? I would submit to you not to approve this this evening. There needs to be more research done and not approve it as it's written, because it is not taking into account the -- the neighborhood -- is that me to say no. Okay. I'm out of time. Anyway, please vote no. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Please come forward. Hold on a second. Here we go again. It's really moody tonight. I don't know what's going on. It's unusual. We have never had this much of an issue. Okay. Thank you. Forsberg: John Forsberg at 2320 Cadillac Drive here in Meridian. First of all, I would say I don't want the -- the neighborhood changed. Okay. Just as Ryan had stated. But, second of all, the most egregious part of this whole change is that it leaves one house north of Cadillac Drive all the way along -- it leaves all those houses on the north side of Cadillac Drive to be looking south to this commercial industrial area and it takes all of our properties and makes some worthless, basically, if we are looking at a commercial light industrial area, rather than the -- the neighborhoods that we are currently looking at. So, I mean -- and the only reason that I can think of that -- that you guys would -- or that they would do that is to protect the people at Woodbridge from having the commercial light industrial or whatever it's going to be, right up against their fence. So, my number one thought would be don't change it. Number two thought would be if you do change it, then, put it all the way up to the Woodbridge fence, so that all of us go commercial light industrial and we don't have our property values plummet because of a change that's south of us. That's -- that's all I have. Perreault: Thank you very much. Forsberg: Unless you have a question. Perreault: I'm sorry? Forsberg: Unless you have a question. Perreault: No. Huh-uh. No. She was just clarifying -- Forsberg: Okay. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 45 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 43 of 107 Perreault: -- clarifying that that shows as mixed use neighborhood, so -- okay. Let's see. We had one hand here first. Please come forward, ma'am. Rennison: Hello. My name is Pat Rennison and I live at 990 Mustang on the east side of Locust Grove Heights and I -- we kind of counted maybe 26 -- 20 -- we counted like 26 people from our subdivision are here representing tonight and I would bet -- or I have a feeling that 24 out of the 26 are in favor of what Mr. Newby outlined for us, that we do not want our neighborhood to be changed. We have wildlife. We have families. We have three generations -- four families that are three generation in the neighborhood. I have been there for 40 years and I'm a Newby. So, please, consider the difference between people's way of life. As Brian said, I taught school for 29 years. My income is 2,000 dollars a month from PERSI and there are several of us in the neighborhood -- everybody in our neighborhood has been a professional in one way or another, either skilled labor or business owner or whatever and we have contributed for over 50 years to the growth of Meridian. If our neighborhood is taken over and our land is devalued, we cannot survive. We will be on the -- out on the street. So, please, consider the people in our neighborhood, not just the land and the growth. Thank you very much. Perreault: Please come forward, sir. In the front row. Hoogland: My name is Ben Hoogland. I own the property at 1625 Bentley. I am not in the subdivision. My house sits on the corner of Locust Grove and Bentley. Okay. I have moved. Prior to the overpass I had four houses behind me. My kids played in Locust Grove. I had -- we had oak trees that were this big around. They are now gone. They have been gone. I remember the sign that says patience is golden. Neuhaus Development. Regional shopping mall. I have had -- some of you have been to my house for dinner. I have had some of the City Council at my house for dinner. We can't do that at my house anymore. Once Jabil went in it was over. I am not in that subdivision. If you want to keep that subdivision intact, but keeping my property at R-1 or low density for one acre, is ripping me apart. I mean it's -- it's just -- there is -- there is no value in my property. I have had to rent it and I haven't had some of the best renters move in there, because it's not a quality piece of property to live in. My master bedroom now sits -- like I measured one time -- 55 feet from that four lane road of Locust Grove. The noise is terrible. There is no longer a house that's suitable to live in. We used to have dinner parties. We used to have weddings in our backyard. It's over. It's gone. So, my house -- I would like to see a change to a multiple use for my property. I would like to see it change to multiple use or a higher density use. It's on the corner of Locust Grove and Bentley. Let's see here if I can find it for you. I can't see the mouse. Perreault: And, sir, just to clarify, we are here this evening to focus on the Comprehensive Plan and so if it is a specific property that your concern is about, please, do feel free to contact the city after the meeting this week as well. Hoogland: I now live in Riggins, Idaho, because the quality here is no longer here and a traffic jam for me now are a herd of elk or deer. Okay? I mean I fish out of my backyard. That's what we used to do here. I mean I had a duck blind out where United Heritage Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 46 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 44 of 107 building sits. You know, I used to hunt pheasants on the way home from the activities bus on school when I went to Meridian High School. So, I am in the Comprehensive Plan. I think this is my property right there. Perreault: Oh. Okay. Okay. Hoogland: Okay. And I didn't receive notice of this meeting until like Sunday or Monday when some of the neighbors finally called me and I still coach at McCall Donnelly High School and I had a district game tonight and I drove all the way from Riggins, so that I could meet with you folks. So, if I need to do anything else, please, let me know. But the houses along Locust Grove, especially -- you know, it's very noisy to live there. It's just -- the quality is gone. Perreault: Thank you. Hoogland: Invite you up to Riggins, show you what life is like. Perreault: Thank you. Do I see one more hand? Okay. Oyama: Lower this mic from my size. My name is Greg Oyama. I live on 2038 Cadillac Drive. Okay. So, this portion that you want to change into a commercial or -- what do you call it? MU-ME? What is MU-ME? Holland: Mixed use neighborhood. Perreault: It's called mixed use neighborhood. It's a mixed use. Oyama: So, if you have lived in a house for 30 years, which I have at this residence, would you want to have mixed use across from you? I'm sure every one of you would say no. So, that's what I ask you to vote. Thank you. Perreault: Please come forward. Shaw: Thank you, Madam Chair Woman. I'm Nathan Shaw. I own the property at 955 South Wells. First and foremost I would like to thank the team who developed the plan. I think there was a tremendous outreach to the community to listen to our feedback and that's much appreciated. So, my property sits in a strategic area near the Eagle and I-84 interchange. Development is coming in all around us. There are office buildings to the south that face I-84. There is a Holiday Inn just kitty corner from us and to the north a few parcels down is an assisted living facility. The hospital is nearby. ICOM is nearby. Then to the northwest and to the west we have residential with the Woodbridge Subdivision and the -- the good people who have just spoken. So, we are, essentially, the transition point between commercial, office, and residential. We have been tagged as office as a zoning type, which I don't think provides a great transition point. But what's proposed is the MU -- the mixed use neighborhood land use for my parcel and I'm very supportive of this. I believe it provides a nice transition point between commercial Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 47 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 45 of 107 residential -- commercial and residential. So, development has come and will continue to come in this area and I think this mixed use neighborhood land use allows for smart development of the area in a way that's consistent with the area and transitions nicely between commercial and residential. So, in summary, I'm supportive of the mixed use neighborhood -- neighborhood land use for my property and I would like to thank you for your time. Perreault: Thank you. Shaw: Thanks. Perreault: Please come forward. Sammis: Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Clay Sammis. I'm the developer at -- at 715 and 915 Wells, working with the owners and -- that Nathan was one of them that -- that just spoke on -- on behalf of -- of his parcel. I, too, want to thank staff and -- for -- for their hard work, particularly in the recent efforts with -- with the project that we are putting for the city and we are hoping to make application soon. I just want to describe that while there has been some opposition, from my understanding, of the Magic Bridge area, there -- this -- this area that's closer to the east, which is also closer to the currently land use designation of office and much of the land has actually already been annexed into -- into the city and buildings -- commercial buildings, as previously mentioned, are -- are lining that freeway drive and that kind of typical commercial corridor. We, too, feel that staff has done a good job in -- in listening to the neighbors -- specifically say Woodbridge and the neighbors from where there is current office buildings and, then, you know, three or four properties away you have got -- you have got residences. So, these -- these vacant properties that we are looking to develop is -- is -- has been embraced by the neighbors that we have approached, the Woodbridge, our neighborhood -- sorry. Neighborhood meeting as well. And so I'm just -- I will be quick, because I know it's a long night. I'm really just here to give our support and thank staff for their -- their efforts and -- and, hopefully, when we make application we would like to -- we would like you to approve this at least as to the east portion where there is clearly commercial buildings and it does make sense to have mixed use go into more of a medium density to the north. And -- and concurrently with that we would -- we would like to ask that when we submit and make application that the city would look to currently process our application, assuming, of course, we are meeting the -- the future comp designation as specified by the steering committee and -- and staff and the neighbors. Thank you very much. Perreault: Thank you. Okay. Is there anyone else that would like to speak on this particular Magic Bridge area? Just to clarify, we are not limiting -- we are not limiting everyone's testimony to these specific areas, we are just going to tackle them first, because we feel like they are a majority of why folks are here and, then, we will have some further conversation about other concerns. Please state your name and address for the record. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 48 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 46 of 107 Stamper: John Stamper. 2111 East Continental Drive. I have a question between the steering committee proposal and, then, the staff proposal. Who is the staff and why don't they go with the steering committee? Why do you have two different committees? Who is on the steering committee compared to the staff? And where does the staff happen to live for this whole operation? Perreault: Gentlemen, would you mind addressing that question? Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Yes. Holland: If I could actually make a few comments on that. I -- I served on the steering committee, along with the other 22 other people that sat on that committee, and there was a lot of deliberation on the six different focus areas and where we got to with the Magic View areas that most of the committee felt like there needed to be focus on this specific -- specific area and not to say that these landowners needed to redevelop tomorrow, that -- that's not the intention of a future use map. It's -- it's to help guide what would happen if all of those landowners wanted to work together towards doing something in the future, what would that look like. So, we looked at a lot different concepts and staff and the consultant had both said that they would be happy to kind of put forward some other options for the Commission to -- to consider, as well as for City Council to consider, as we are also talking with residents tonight and hearing concerns. So, I just wanted to give that perspective and certainly would open it up if Caleb had any other comments, too. Hood: So, Madam Chair, just maybe to add a little bit of context to the steering committee. There was some back and forth with the steering committee and we did deliberate quite a bit and at one point in time, essentially, what is staff's recommendation right now tonight was the steering committees and, then, we talked about it some more a meeting or two later and flip flopped back to kind of what they ended up recommending ultimately be submitted with the application. Staff is planning staff here at the City of Meridian and taking all of these areas and the Comprehensive Plan overall and running through those and talking about what's transpired at steering committee, what we have heard, certainly, you know, as was stated, a majority of the comments are received from this neighborhood in particular, would -- would like the low density current designation there. Part of some of our charge, though, is to look decades out into the future and plan for those services for a potential change and some of the market forces out here with ICOM across the street and the freeway and some of that and there not really being a plan for urban services yet, this is in practically the middle of our planning area, that's ultimately why city staff, the recommendation you have today, was to say this isn't planning, this is not planning. So, envisioning that change and the market forces and seeing some of the things that happened even on the other side of Eagle Road at Portico and some others, we saw just some similar -- just market forces happening there. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 49 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 47 of 107 Stamper: But at one time that was the main road plan through Woodbridge, but the developer changed that. I mean a lot -- a lot of the problems are because of the Woodbridge neighborhood and the change that they made and now it's going to impact the rest of us and that's -- I mean if they made a change to get more houses into Woodbridge, great, good for them. The developer won. But we shouldn't lose because of Woodbridge. Perreault: Excuse me. Please. Let's -- let's -- Stamper: We have pitchforks. Perreault: We want to -- there is a public record taken of everything that's said and -- and the City Council will review that record. So, we want to make sure that they can clearly understand everything that happens tonight, because it's important that they -- that they be able to read through the minutes that are -- that are going to be presented. So, hopefully, that answered your question. The steering committee -- and all of the players that were involved in the process are actually on the second page of the Comprehensive Plan. Stamper: Who represents this area? Who from this Council represents this area? Who -- who -- like who is from this area? Who lives in this area? Does anybody here live in this area? Do you live in this area? Perreault: Can I finish what I was saying? Stamper: Sure. Perreault: Thank you. We are actually not the Council we are the Commission, the Planning and Zoning Commission. We are a group of volunteers. None of us work for the city. We are residents that live in the Meridian area that do this on volunteer on our own -- on our own time. Stamper: All right. Perreault: We are not paid to be here. Stamper: Do you live in this area? Perreault: And we are not members of the -- of the City Council. So, I just want to clarify that real quickly. Stamper: Okay. Perreault: We are here to make consideration, just like you guys are residents, we are residents and we are doing this on -- as volunteers, so -- so I say that, because it's -- I want you to understand that we are going to make a recommendation to City Council, but Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 50 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 48 of 107 we are not the final decision makers. So, to clarify that as well. All of the individual -- I will answer your question. All of the individuals who are involved in the -- in this from the steering committee to the staff to the names of Planning and Zoning, to the names of City Council, they are on the second page of the Comprehensive Plan and you can find that online on the Meridian Comprehensive Plan. Everybody's name is on there. Stamper: But it doesn't -- I mean do they live in this neighborhood? Do they have direct impact? Perreault: All of us are Meridian residents and all of the City Council are Meridian residents. Stamper: Well, Meridian has multiple neighborhoods. That doesn't even clarify the question. The question is who actually lives in this neighborhood? Does anybody here -- do you live in this neighborhood? Does anybody live in this neighborhood? Perreault: And -- and may I ask your -- may I ask the concern about where -- our place of residence? Stamper: Well, I mean because if you don't live in this neighborhood, then, you don't have the same perspectives that we have. If you live outside of this neighborhood, then, you just see it as a chunk of land. So, does anybody live in this neighborhood and have, you know, a viable cause? Perreault: I very much understand your concern, sir. But we have -- we consider areas around the City of Meridian. Every two weeks we have many conversations with many residents. We have all been doing this for quite some time and we are -- we are very comfortable with our ability to relate with the concerns that you have, because this is something that we do on a regular basis is chat with folks that have these concerns. Stamper: So, for the record nobody lives in these neighborhoods. Perreault: I don't think we need to show our personal residence locations at this time. Stamper: We are asking for your address. You asked for my address. Perreault: Is there anything else that you -- is there anything else that you would like to add that's specific to the -- to the staff report or to the Comprehensive Plan changes? Stamper: Well, I think the staff report is wrong and I would -- I would support the steering committee. Perreault: Okay. Thank you very much. That's helpful. Okay. So, now let's -- let's go ahead and move on to -- who was the third person that had asked to speak for a group? Was that Ms. Karnes? Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 51 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 49 of 107 Weatherly: Madam Chair, that's Mindy Lin in Stetson Estates. Perreault: Mindy, are you still here? Thank you. Please come forward. Lin: I don't care where you live. I just care about where I live. Okay. My name is Mindy Lin and I'm a local resident and owner of a nationwide business that is based here in Idaho, but I would like to first give you some background information. Can you hear me okay? Perreault: Could you state your address, ma'am? Lin: I'm sorry. I don't even like giving my address, if I'm totally honest. Perreault: I apologize. Lin: Yeah. Perreault: Do you have a business address that you can state? Lin: That's wonderful. 12336 West Overland Road. Perreault: Excellent. Lin: Okay. My husband and I moved to Idaho in 2005 to escape crime and start a family where we could lay roots to build a foundation that would allow a balance of working hard and having space to enjoy where we are living. We now do that within driving distance of our corporate headquarters. We don't mind the drive one bit to escape to our rural paradise with our two young children. We purchased a ten acre remote and rural hobby farm in Stetson Estates with a breathtaking view of the valley and an unobstructed view shed of the Boise range. We have cattle and we grow our own produce. We are proud to create -- sorry, this thing is very touchy. Can I do the arrow, Caleb? Okay. We are proud to create jobs in the valley and honored to employ and expand as we grow. We have 30,000 people that have joined our business across all 50 states and yet there is no other state that we have chosen to headquarter all of this within. We are neighbor to our closest friends, who also own multiple businesses in the valley, and our children ride back and forth to each other's properties every single day with peace of mind in the remote safety that we all have here. You are viewing photos of our homes and of our neighborhood. I am here, again, representing my family, my neighbors, my employees and my community. I am hoping this is flipping already. Okay. We live and work in paradise and understand entirely why federal law states that we are entitled to peaceful employment -- enjoyment of our properties. Planning and zoning is a critical factor in that and what brings me before you this evening and I would like to offer some context on behalf of myself and my neighborhood that additionally compels me. Our ten acre parcel of land overlooks 118 acres of farmland that are currently an option to be purchased by a developer. The plan that we have learned of and the collector roads that are attached to it are simply devastating to the life that many of us have built here. At this time it isn't Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 52 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 50 of 107 reassuring as we see the explosion that's happening in our community and our city. Our farm property would be dissected by a road that would run directly next to our cattle and our chickens. That road would continue past our property and run right through our neighbor's -- our neighbor's land, chopping their land in half, separating them and their children from their livestock without crossing a road. We would overlook 357 rooftops that are proposed and have two story homes on 70 foot lots bumping up against our property and view, dropping the value of the properties that we have all worked so hard for. Some of our neighbors would be even worse shape with upwards of 16 homes running along their property line. I would like to expand on the first gentleman that commented this evening and shared that there is a demand for larger properties. That is absolutely the case. We have two neighbors that are currently building right now on five acre parcels. They are building million and a half dollar homes that are now going to have zero transition to a development that is going to bump up against their fence line. I know that we are not here and you are not able to comment on this application specifically, but I can guarantee that the overdevelopment of our city in rural areas like ours does not in any way, shape, or form align with the spirit of our Comprehensive Plan or the intent of the future land use map. Many of us were not here the last time that this future land use map was developed, but we desired what we have here and we are not looking to sell as a community and we are not looking for land to be developed in the future. More importantly, we are looking for transition of this area, which has -- obviously we are very well aware that this is inevitable development. As concerned stakeholders -- I'm so sorry. As concerned stakeholders in southwest Meridian, we are here and represented here to respectfully ask Meridian Planning and Zoning to more accurately recognize our agricultural neighborhood, so that this -- these photos you are seeing -- our corner in the beautiful state of Idaho can maintain its uniqueness, its diversity, and honor our distinctive and inherited long rural heritage. To begin, the proposed zoning designations for southwest Meridian are actually inaccurate and do not reflect existing uses. As you heard earlier this evening, our subdivision is a group of well established agricultural and semi- rural properties comprised of five to ten acre parcels, yet we have been zoned medium density residential in the draft Comprehensive Plan. Such a significant inaccuracy creates conflicts when adjoining parcels are developed and cannot provide appropriate transition and would support development that could threaten our rural practices. The loss of a rural designation also means the loss of amenities, which we, indeed, all of Meridian stakeholders all hold dear. Open spaces, wildlife, view sheds and room to breathe. Therefore, we cannot support the draft future land use map due to its limited residential zoning designations, conflicting policies, and incomplete response to the stakeholder survey results. I would like to reference Section 4.0503 of the draft Comprehensive Plan. The stated goals of the City of Meridian are to preserve prime farmland within the area of city impact, to maintain rural character and provide opportunities for local produce and continued farming operations. To encourage the continued use of land for farming near area of city impact boundaries. To effectively transition from rural uses to urban. To also slow the outward progression of the city's limits by discouraging fringe area development and the last noted goal -- to support appropriate agriculture operations within the area of city impact. Yet the city has sadly chosen to completely delete the rural designation in the new Comprehensive Plan. The lowest residential designation in the draft future land use map is low density or one to Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 53 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 51 of 107 three homes per acre. There is no provision for rural properties of one, five, let alone ten or more acres. Is there no longer a place here for the life that families like mine desire to live here or for the businesses that we bring here as well? We are willing to live on the fringe and to drive in, but now our fringe is at risk of being in the middle of density. To include the larger properties and farms in low density residential is to create a zoning designation that is many times broader than the medium and high density residential designations. The draft future land use map does not align with the City of Meridian's own stated goals and objectives -- objectives. Excuse me. During the visioning survey for the Comprehensive Plan stakeholders asked the city to preserve, protect and enrich Meridian's strong historic -- historic charm and character. However, a rural designation is not included in the future -- in the future land use map. Low density residential zoning will be far too broad if it encompasses ten, 15 and 20 acre real estate properties, but, then, also allows three homes per acre. Medium and medium high residential zoning have a far tighter range. We, therefore, strongly request that the city create a rural very low density designation. Grouping our rural properties into a low density designation is inaccurate and does not recognize stakeholder wishes or even stated objectives in the plan itself. Next we support the creation of neighborhood districts and ask that our district of southwest Meridian be granted a district identity with the adoption of the Comprehensive Plan. It is very important to me and my neighbors that there be design guidelines to help us preserve and protect our existing rural identity. Again, this is something addressed by our stakeholders in the visioning survey, along with the request for distinctive developments. In conclusion, we respectfully ask that one future land use map be revised to accurately reflect existing uses, so new applications will offer more appropriate transition. Number two. That the future land use map be revised to include rural very low residential zoning designation to align with 4.0503, A, B and C in order to protect, preserve and enrich our unique rural history and neighborhoods and to fulfill our Comprehensive Plan's aim to provide a wide range of housing options for residents. And, finally, number three, that our southwest Meridian neighborhoods be granted a district identity with design guidelines and policies to help us retain our real identity, even as higher density and commercial centers are developed in the future. I have signatures here of 50 of our local neighbors that I would like to submit for the record and thank you for your time. Perreault: Were those already submitted to the city at any point? Lin: No. Actually, they were not. We submitted for redesignation. But this is for tonight's statement. Perreault: Okay. If you would give those to Adrienne we will be glad to put those on public record. Lin: Okay. Perreault: Thank you very much. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 54 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 52 of 107 Holland: Madam Chair, just one question. On the -- did you see that the map that the staff had suggested, compared to the one that was submitted with the adopted plan? Lin: Yes. Holland: What were your thoughts about the differences on -- on that suggested plan? Lin: I think there is a difference between low and rural low, because even in low we are still looking at three -- three residents per and it's not that -- I mean if you come -- that's why I included these pictures so you guys could see what we are living within, what we are existing up against, to have that type of transition against -- we are clearly rural here to the point that Caleb saw and said, yes, we need to -- we need to re-look at that. So, having medium density right up against next to us does not accommodate what we are living on. Holland: Thank you. Perreault: Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to speak on this particular area that has something new to share with us this evening? Please come forward. Dean: Good evening, Madam Chair and Committee Members. Thank you for giving us this time to speak to you tonight. My name is Tina Dean and since you allowed Ms. Lin, I will give you my commercial properties as well. I have one at 35 East Bauer and one at 100 West Overland, both in the City of Meridian. I reside with my family on Rustler Place, which is currently misidentified as medium density in this yellow, but we would like it, first of all, rezoned. Some things that I have been thinking about tonight -- and I didn't come planning to speak, but Meridian's identity over the years has been grounded in an agricultural and dairy farm community over the last 20 years that has been transitioning to a bedroom community for Boise, which you can clearly tell basing neighborhood after neighborhood. The City Council and the Mayor have worked very hard to get commercial property here and you guys have done a wonderful job. You have created a very large stable tax base. So, when I hear city employees -- so, I also appreciate it very much saying that there is no place in your future land use map or plans for the future for very low density residential, I don't buy it. The city of Eagle has done a very good job of creating estate home lots that people are flocking to. My husband and I lived in Eagle for a while and we came back to Meridian, because we prefer the people here. The community. I believe you all prefer the community here as well. That's why we have the Dairy Days parade, which seems a bit of a misnomer now that most of our dairies are gone and many of our young people in the community raise animals for 4-H, they learn to grow crops through FFA. These are plans that they have for their futures. They are going to go to college and study agricultural. They will, of course, have to move out of our area to farm or ranch, because we don't have the land available for that. When you allow such great density in both residential and commercial plans, you are supporting your own tax base, but that does not divert money for future school and road projects. So, our schools and roads are always playing catch up. You can tell that by the public schools from West Ada that are capped for enrollment in our areas. You can tell that, Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 55 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 53 of 107 unless you have a magical teleporting device, anytime you're on any of our roads around here. I just asked that you take a look at rezoning some of these areas as very low density, both to preserve our way of life now and to make that available for future generations that wish to stay or move to Meridian, so they can have those options as well. And I think that's it. But if you will take my considerations I have a new city slogan for you. City of Meridian, something for everyone still. Perreault: May I ask you a question? Dean: Sure. Perreault: So -- and I -- and I should have probably asked this in advance. So -- so, this -- the current use, the medium density residential, was adopted -- I'm going to assume in 2002 or 2010 when there was a change and so it's -- you know, we are seeing something here that we are not seeing in the other areas, which is that we are actually decreasing from what was existing on the -- on the current Comprehensive Plan, we are decreasing the density on the new Comprehensive Plan. So, at any point has -- has there been developers that have come in and wanted to develop medium density residential since it's currently set up that way on the FLUM? And, if so, is that -- I mean I guess I'm trying to -- to understand the concerns about -- they are actually -- this is actually an improvement for the neighborhood to go down to low density from where it was at medium density residential. So, I would -- I would guess that if there was a group or a developer or -- or concerns from the neighborhood already, that -- that it would be developed as medium residential, you -- you as a neighborhood would have already seen that come to fruition by different -- you know, each time that one of these properties has gone for sale there would have been an opportunity for somebody to come in and -- and -- and potentially apply for a medium density. So, I just -- I want to understand -- Dean: You're speaking about Rustler -- Rustler Place specifically? Perreault: Yes. And I know you probably don't know every single history -- a history of all the -- Dean: It's okay. I will pretend I know until somebody corrects me. It's -- that entire strip is still in county and none of our properties are abutting city property. So, there hasn't been an opportunity or an issue that has arisen so far where a developer would want to annex it into the city and subdivide. That being said, I have spoken to all of my neighbors and not one of them to my recollection has made an interest in annexing and subdividing their property. We all want to stay there. And this was clearly just miscategorized. I know the city employees can't go down every street in the city to make sure that they are making these categorizations correctly. Caleb did say that, you know, we would look at getting that reclassified -- reclassified so it's correct. But the reason we are all here is because a developer has notified us of their plans to develop a medium density residential along our lots. One of the neighbors would have 16 homes along his backyard fence line. So, that's a lot of really good fences that you have to build to maintain good neighbors and it's unfair to, you know, his current use of the property and his agricultural or livestock Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 56 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 54 of 107 use to have that many families with children having fun and being loud, disrupting what he has been doing there for years. So, it's not an improvement. It was just clearly a miscategorization and, then, instead of abutting that medium density, which I really consider high density, because when you have one home per ten acres and you put six -- three to five homes per acre, that's a lot of neighbors. Perreault: Thank you very much. Okay. So, anyone else who would like to speak about this specific Rustler Place area? Please come forward. Lucht: Thank you, Madam Chairman and Council Members. My name is Steve Lucht. I'm one of the neighbors to the last two speakers on Rustler Place. 3555. Thanks to Caleb and staff for -- and the presentation tonight of all the work that has -- has gone on. We are relatively new to the area. Moved into the area within the last year. But I would -- as we are looking at the plans would want to endorse the principles of the last two speakers in terms of the rural nature of Rustler Place and my property is actually on the north side and we back up to the mixed use area that is -- is listed on the map. Perreault: Here we go. Lucht: So, this -- this area here we back up -- actually this lot right here. My concern as I see and listen to the -- to the comments here this evening is -- is not knowing what the future lies, the multi -- multi-use can be many many things and certainly some of the other properties in -- in Meridian have spoken to this. So, I would just want to register the concerns I have backing up to multi-use, which is -- you know, could be potentially much more dense and much more industrialized than -- than even what's going -- or proposed in the southern part of Rustler. So, again, to -- to endorse the concepts of a lower density use for this rural area, an area that still has the buckhorn antelope and all the other native -- native animals. So, again, endorsing for the future, not knowing just when multi-use is going to back up to -- to my property, but it will have the same -- same issues that -- that the last two people have -- have referenced. Perreault: Okay. So, did we have anybody else that was signed up to speak on behalf of a larger group? Weatherly: Madam Chair, that would be Susan Karnes. Perreault: Okay. Susan, would you, please, come forward. Karnes: Good evening. I'm Susan Karnes. I reside at 5556 South Graphite Way and I'm here on behalf of the Meridian Southern Rim Coalition and to begin I would like to say it's been an honor and a privilege to serve as a member of the Comprehensive Plan steering committee. I am here to speak on behalf of the coalition and I would like to sing the praises of staff and especially Brian McClure, who has served as project manager. They have had the city's best interest at heart throughout this and it's like herding cats. Lisa knows we had some real spirited discussions in the steering committee meetings and there is some tough decisions ahead of you and I applaud you for the tough -- tough Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 57 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 55 of 107 decisions you are about to make. I'm struck tonight by this notion -- I'm going to start at 30,000 feet and kind of go down. I'm going to be real brief, out of respect for everyone's time. The Comprehensive Plan is meant to be stakeholder driven and so we want to ensure that our decisions about how we grow are driven by what our stakeholders and residents value and one of the things that is the prevalent theme tonight is open space and our rural story. That is what everyone has spoken to tonight and it's so clearly stated in our stakeholder survey and visioning exercises and I would ask for you to hold that near and dear, because this is what adds value to our city as we grow. There is a very interesting quote out of a study called CEOs For Cities and it says the unique characteristics of place may be the only true defensible source of competitive advantage for cities and towns. Open space and sustainable thoughtful growth is economic development. Our identity is our greatest asset and our other greatest asset are our residents who are so engaged this evening. I'm really proud of that, that so many people came to share with you their thoughts. It really I think is -- is a demonstration of some respect for you. I would also -- a quote from the land trust, a study called The Economic Value of Public Spaces, and it is the relationship between rising property values and green spaces is well documented. There is absolutely every reason for us to value our open space and our large lots. So, on behalf of the Southern Rim Coalition we would like to respectfully request the following revisions to the draft Comprehensive Plan. We feel, as Mrs. Lin testified, it's really important that we have some sort of very low density residential designation. Other cities do it. Salt Lake City. Spokane. I lived many years in Texas. There were low density plus designations. The rationale, as you can see, is, one, in our stakeholder visioning they wanted us to preserve our rural character. It's important to them. But the other thing is we have existing rural uses and to classify them as low and, then, as we feather at our densities have them adjacent to medium, we are setting that -- that situation up for conflict. I don't see a way -- the steering committee of the coalition doesn't see a way that we can offer appropriate transition. Rustler Lane is one example in south Meridian. We actually have been going street by street and doing an audit. We have many streets that we do not see in the next 20 years any reasonable expectation that they are going to be sold and developed for any other uses and so to protect and to offer appropriate transition and to -- to respond to our stakeholders request that we honor our rural identity, we ask that P&Z recommend to Council the creation of a rural slash very low density or the preservation of rural slash estate. We just feel that it's -- it's critically important that we have it. Also I would say we need to support through our policies some of the language in the Comprehensive Plan. On page 2.2, there is an expressed goal. Opportunities for housing should be available for all income groups with a diverse mix, including rural. Mrs. Lin was quoting from -- from 4.05.03. If we are going to say it, let's mean it. Let's put some teeth behind it and let's let our stakeholders know that when they ask for something, when they engage with us, when they value something, we hear them. That is what the whole intent of the Comprehensive Plan is, that it be stakeholder driven. We further ask that there be revisions to the draft FLUM to accurately label the existing uses. Rustler Lane is just one of several, several streets. We are doing an audit and I will send the specific streets and zones to staff for further consideration. We would ask to support the language of exploring the creation of districts. We would ask for the immediate creation of a southern rim district with design policies. We are not asking for an overlay district with onerous ordinances. We would recommend Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 58 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 56 of 107 amendment wording similar to this: Established to provide an area in Meridian that will be memorable for its rural character, village like atmosphere, and commercial centers and mix of housing options. The rationale -- another wish from our stakeholders was distinctive development. The other thing is growth is coming. Change is coming. Density is coming. So, one of the I think emotional responses when people who live in these types of areas see a medium density residential neighborhood coming with 400 rooftops, it's -- it seems insensitive and it seems disrespectful of our established identity. So, we think by having a district where we have some design guidelines, that we can at least protect our identity and value the story that has made our city so desirable. We are concerned about the lapse of time between the adoption of the Comprehensive Plan and the UDC amendments and code to support it. Therefore, in response to the stakeholder survey requests for open space, pathways, amenities, sustainable development, we would request that P&Z recommend to Council the immediate adoption of a minimum standard of 15 percent qualified open space in most residential districts, with an increased amount set aside for higher density districts and a 25 percent discount if a development is within a quarter mile of a public park. I have looked at open space. Eagle's open space requirement is 18 percent. Idaho Falls is 25 percent. Salt Lake City is 20 percent. I understand calculations come into this. There is a little bit of trigonometry involved. But the one thing we know is our residents value open space. It sustains values. Our stakeholders have asked for sustainable growth and part of that equation is the sustained value of our property tax base and our property tax revenues. We cannot continue to build neighborhoods that are substandard and will devalue over time and that was my idea of being brief. Do you have any questions for me? Perreault: Thank you. Any questions? Olsen: Madam Chair? Perreault: Mr. Olsen. Olsen: Do you have an opinion on the idea of pulling back the -- the area of impact and leaving some of these areas in Ada county, as opposed to going through this rezone -- not rezoning -- Karnes: Madam Chair, Commissioner Olsen, my opinion would be that for us in the southern rim and some parts of southwest Meridian, it might not work, because they will be surrounded by development. I can see some of the outlying areas handling that more effectively. You know, we have a Swiss cheese city, do we not? We have a lot of county little enclaves that are receiving the benefit of city services. This is one of the conundrums we discussed in the steering committee meeting, you know, at what point is it or is it not ever to annex those properties. So, the steering committee has not taking that into discussion. I can't speak on behalf of the coalition. But I would say that my personal opinion would be to consider that on a case-by-case basis. Perreault: Are you proposing that the open space requirement changes be implemented into the Comprehensive Plan? Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 59 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 57 of 107 Karnes: Yes, because our concern is there is an intent, but as Council has reminded us time and again, the Comprehensive Plan is just a plan and we live and die by our code. That's the law. And we are concerned about that period of time between the adoption of the plan and having the underpinnings -- as Caleb pointed out this evening, we have Caleb and Brian. We do not have a lot of staff. And doing these code amendments is -- is hard work. Our staff -- we are really terribly critically understaffed right now and so that's one reason why we are coming forward asking for that amendment to be attached at your recommendation to the Comprehensive Plan. Perreault: What you feel like would be an appropriate time frame to -- to -- are you suggesting like a deadline for code changes once the plan is approved? Is that what I'm hearing? I want to make sure I understand. I want to make sure I'm understanding. Karnes: No. Staff has run a marathon for 14 months and sadly for those of us on the steering committee, we are kind of winding down. They have got another marathon and so I guess that's why we are coming forward. We are like let's at least -- this to us is one of the most critical components. There are -- and I have a plan of work. I have an executive summary that I will submit prior to Council and it's going to have policy and process changes and code changes and -- because I have been taking notes all these months -- not to get into the weeds tonight. But we feel -- the coalition feels and I personally feel as a steering committee member the most impactful, wonderful thing we can do for our city immediately is increase our open space requirement. Perreault: Okay. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: One more comment. I know we -- we deliberated a little bit on open space in our steering committee and had some great conversations about it. I know Caleb and Brian mentioned that they have over 500 policies that they have got to consider as part of the Comprehensive Plan, which is really just a guide that gives staff direction on what they need to focus on. Karnes: Yes. Holland: So, I think one thing we could do is encourage them to put the open space code evaluation as a priority that they would move towards the top. I don't know that that's something we can technically write into the Comprehensive Plan, because it's a guide, not -- Karnes: Right. Holland: -- not code. But that's something we could -- we could direct them to take a closer look at and put it on that priority list to consider. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 60 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 58 of 107 Karnes: Yeah. Because my understanding -- and, Caleb, correct me if I'm wrong -- is they were going to yet again reach out and ask for how to prioritize and, you know, we are just going tick, tick, tick, you know, that's -- that's that much more time and philosophically when -- when the Council approved the creation of the process for a new Comprehensive Plan, Council met and said -- or directed staff that they were not going to accept any amendments to the future land use map during the Comprehensive Plan process. Well, what happened instead, much to our dismay, was we started seeing what we thought were land use changes through modified DA's and, you know, some other -- we -- we felt not as public in the process of -- you know, the developers had to go on and do the business; right? You know, we couldn't have a moratorium, but it's kind of disappointing to see how things did change regardless and some of it -- we felt really eroded the code and -- and is in direct conflict with the intent of this new plan. Perreault: I know that during the presentation -- it was a long presentation. The gentleman did mention that -- that they -- the open space is -- is one of their top priorities and -- Karnes: Yes. Perreault: -- and that's one of the first sets of policies that they are already planning on working on. So, they have already stated that this evening. So, I think that that's going to happen. Karnes: We may do a nice little helpful petition to further light -- light the fire. Thank you. I appreciate your time. Appreciate the audience, too, this evening. Everyone's been so patient and respectful. Thank you. Perreault: Every time you come before us you always present everything so succinctly and we appreciate that very much. Karnes: Thank you very much. Perreault: Okay. So, is there anyone else who would like to speak specifically on the southwest -- the southwest Meridian area or in reference to what Susan had presented? Okay. Go ahead. Wyler: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I'm David Wyler. I live at 4720 South Rock Ranch Lane. That's the area just south of Rustler down in this area. You know, as was mentioned earlier, the -- a lot of us really came to attention about what was going on when we learned about development of about 300, 350 homes juxtaposed to our area and, you know, at that time we met with them and as we were talking to them they indicated to us, well, your area is actually medium density and the city is not really going to care what you have to say, because they think you are all going to sell out and move on. I do appreciate that. They have taken some time to listen to us and more clearly designate this area as low density. It's closer to what it is, but as you saw from Mrs. Lin's presentation earlier, it's not quite reflective of what it actually is. We are all a couple of Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 61 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 59 of 107 small subdivisions in this area, you know, five to ten acre lots per home. I moved back to this area about eight years ago. I'm from Idaho originally. Interestingly, I lived for the six years prior to moving back in Cleveland and Indianapolis and in both of those areas I lived close enough to the city center to be able to get into some of the hospitals where I was working and -- but all around the areas where I was there were many homes in the one to five acre range. I think that in this area, too, even though I understand some of the challenges of supplying utilities and other things as they are developing the plan, we have heard from many people the high desire, the need for these estate size properties in the area. When I first came here I looked at moving to Eagle, because that's where I was able to see that there were many multi-acre lots available. Ultimately driving around, you know, many hours I was able to find this area down here, you know with a five acre lot available. My hope would be that we are able to better recognize the areas and what is already existing in this area with five to ten acre homes that we understand that that brings value to this area for the mix of land use within the City of Meridian and I think that very low density rural estate property has an important designation and most clearly identifies the area where I'm living currently and I appreciate the committee's consideration in that. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you. Did I see another hand back here? Okay. Ma'am, please, come forward. Webb: My name is Wendy Webb. I live at 2299 East Lodge Trail Drive. I don't live in the Rustler Lane area, I live in the southern part of Meridian and I have been watching growth in the area for probably the last seven years. I'm an Idaho native. My husband was in the Air Force for 25 years, so we were anxious to get back to Idaho. I watched and I watched and I watched for larger lots, so that we could live in Idaho like we had always dreamed of living in Idaho. It was very very difficult to find a larger lot. We still -- we don't even own an acre lot. We own a larger lot, but it's not an acre. So, I read the Comprehensive Plan on my own, because I have been watching growth in the area, coming to City Council meetings, interested in what's happening in this -- in this community that I become part of. As I read the Comprehensive Plan, boom, right there under the land use designations, I was terrified to discover that there would no longer be a one acre lot designation. Any land those -- that is designated low density can now have three homes on that acre. So, if somebody in the rest of their place -- neighborhood -- so, two neighbors sell their ten acres, now a developer has 20 acres, they can put 54 homes on those 20 acres, because -- and that's taking away the ten percent open space that's required now. So, I really am -- you know, and same thing with El Gato. So, I really am encouraging City Council -- or not City Council -- Planning to add another designation of zoning for our city. We all know that's what everyone wants is open space in our communities and that does not only come in parks, but that comes in large lots. We also encourage executive company -- executives of companies to move their companies here if they have a -- if they can find a lot that they are excited to move on, that's close to their business, so we don't want to take away the opportunities to have estate size lots in -- in Meridian. I think that would be a disaster. I compare it to if you would offer a child zero to three pieces of candy, what child is going to choose the zero? If you offer a developer zero homes on an acre or three, what developer is going to take zero or one. They are Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 62 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 60 of 107 going to take the three more than likely. So, I really think it's important that we change and have another land designation. I also think it's important that we take those properties that are -- that are designated R-4, but they definitely are not R-4, the existing properties, we need to fix that on the FLUM, so that in the future proper transition can happen. That's what I wanted to share. Thank you. Perreault: If I might clarify something for you. So, we aren't specifically discussing zoning this evening, we are just discussing future land use. Webb: Right. Perreault: The zoning and FLUM are -- are different. Webb: I just want to make sure that they allow for a lower density designation, because right now it's not being allowed for in this new Comprehensive Plan. It's going away. Goodbye one acre estates in south Meridian, so -- thank you. Perreault: Okay. I think I did see one more hand here in the back. Back there. So, we are officially I think finished with the -- with the geographic areas, just based on -- on the signups; is that right? Weatherly: As far as I can tell, Madam Chair. Do you want to just go with the next in line that signed up now? Perreault: Yes. So, now we will take some individual testimonies that aren't specific to any particular area and so if you would like to proceed. And if you -- if -- we would also, again, ask that if -- if your concerns have already been stated by another individual here, it's okay to forego, even if you went ahead and signed up on the tablet earlier. Weatherly: Thank you, Madam Chair. The next person on the list is Peter Baranko. The next person on the list is Laraina Oyama. Next person on the list is Shayna Randall. Perreault: Shayna is choosing not to testify; is that right? Okay. She's shaking your head. Weatherly: Thank you. Perreault: Thank you. Weatherly: The next person on the list is Joshua Leonard. Leonard: Thank you very much for -- for allowing me to be here. My name is Joshua Leonard. I'm with the Clark Wardle Law Firm, 251 East Front Street, Suite 310, in Boise. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I would like to focus on two locations. The first is at the southwest corner of Meridian and Victory roads. Currently it's designated with a medium density residential. It is proposed for medium density residential and I Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 63 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 61 of 107 would like to request that it be given a commercial designation there. Maybe a year ago -- or nearly a year ago on November 13th of 2018, our clients staff met with the city to discuss annexation and the land use designation of this site. At that time city staff direction to our client was to wait until this process of -- of amending the comp plan and the FLUM was completed. Our -- our -- our client's staff waited and here we are. We have -- we -- we hope -- we had hoped that this would be changed, because it needs to change in the course of this. It's been stagnant at this location. They -- the use hasn't changed since it was originally adopted back around the time that our clients acquired it almost 15 years ago. The proposed comp plan and the FLUM designations that are before you tonight will leave -- continue to leave this corner of this intersection behind. If you are familiar with this intersection, it -- the other three corners of this have developed well. This one has not developed as anticipated, largely because of the fact that it's -- that it is still medium density residential and won't change under the proposed FLUM and -- and comp plan amendments that are before you tonight. We also fear that if it's not changed now in the course of this amendment process, the greater -- the broader scope of amendments, that it won't change for a while. W e fear what -- what I would like to call amendment fatigue where if we come back in with an application here shortly after this -- these amendments are made, that we will hear from city staff that we wish we could have done that back when we were doing all these amendments, but we just did that, we had just been through that process, we don't want to go through that so quickly afterwards. In other words, we fear that we are going to be told to wait again. But this corner can't wait. As I mentioned it's stagnant and -- and it's basically an in-fill site now at the corner of these arterials. The intersection of these arterials. I asked for a commercial designation on the FLUM, which allowed us to -- to develop more fully. The second location -- I only have a couple of seconds left, but I want to hit it really quickly. The northeast corner of Locust Grove and McMillan roads. Currently it's mixed use neighborhood and we are requesting commercial. Under the proposed it would stay mixed use neighborhood. The problem with that is this is a tiny site and to get the -- the type of mix of uses that you need in there, it just can't happen on such a small site. Really quickly at the end of staff's report they asked for clear direction if the Commission wants to make changes to staff's suggestions, I would ask you to approve the -- the future land use map and the Comprehensive Plan, but with changes to the southwest corner of Meridian and Victory and the northeast corner of Locust Grove and McMillan to allow commercial designations in those spots. Perreault: Thank you. Leonard: Thank you. Weatherly: Madam Chair, the last person signed up to speak is Mary DeChambeau. Perreault: Is Mary here? DeChambeau: Hello. I know, Brian's sick of seeing my face. I keep telling him I get stupider every day, so if I'm at the wrong meeting, please -- please let me know. I -- my name is Mary DeChambeau and I reside at 2015 East Victory Road. I have been there Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 64 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 62 of 107 62 years. My family's been there since the 1940s. Okay? So -- and we fought like heck to keep Tuscany out of that neighborhood. Our neighborhood looked just like a lot of these neighborhoods that these people are talking about. There is no wildlife on my place anymore. There is no -- you know, I'm surrounded by houses and so my concern is -- because I saw at the very beginning of the presentation -- I had an overlay on my place. I -- my family's accepted the fact that there is going to be apartments and houses and in- fill. I mean I -- I'm surrounded by -- I would say at least 24 houses on my border, if not more, surrounding my family farm. So, as far as I'm concerned, you know, my lifestyle has been ruined for 19 years. I mean you can't farm. You know, I have had over 600 trespassers, people try to recreate, they steal your corn, they go way over -- you know, because they are just, you know, desperate for a country lifestyle, but they are all living in the subdivision. So, my question tonight was -- and maybe Brian can help me out -- is the overlay. I still do not understand the overlay. We didn't even know we had one -- an overlay -- what that meant, but I heard you state -- and I'm trying to talk to you, but I -- I heard him state that they moved the commercial off the center of the mile, so they could put it on the corners, but we went through all this in 2002 and they said, no, they want a little -- you know, neighborhood center community there, but they said it's not working now. You know, this is very confusing to us, because, you know, in the '70s -- my parents went in the '60s, we went to all these meetings, my parents drug me, and it was all supposed to stay on the south side of the freeway. They felt the freeway would be a buffer zone between ag and city. Well, you see how well that all worked out and so, you know, I come home in 2000 and they said, well, you have this -- you have to have this neighborhood center. That's where we are going to put it. It's on your place. There is nothing you can do about it. Okay. We accepted that. So, we finally did some exploratory, we put our place up for sale just to kind of see what's out there and we had some commercial there, but now they are saying that the commercial isn't working in the center, so now when they need to put it on the corners and, you know, it's hard to plan, you know, it's hard to market your place and I realized the neighbors may not like this, but we have the right to get the maximum amount out of our property. Okay? And I hear when talking about open spaces, I have had offers and the developers don't want to pay for the -- you know, the canal banks where there might be -- you know, they don't want to pay for anything that has to do with open spaces. I mean these contracts have really changed from 2000, 2005. They are playing hardball. If they can't build a house on it they don't want to pay you. What they do is they lower your price per acre and my price of acre -- the Tuscany went for like 15, 20 thousand an acre and I can tell you my property is way above that. Okay? So, when we talk about these densities and medium densities, you know, now everyone's concerned about the neighborhood around me, but nobody was ever concerned about my ag land. You know, we tried to stay rural. We tried to stay an ag -- you know, an ag farm, but it's almost impossible, you know, and so now we want to just maximize and I realized this is a zoning thing, but when you -- Perreault: So, ma'am, is your question what the future land use is intended right now? Is that what you -- DeChambeau: For the overlay. I don't even understand why they -- because I think the comp plan -- you took the overlay off and I was assured that it didn't affect our place at Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 65 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 63 of 107 all, you know, that we still have the neighborhood center, which is fine. I don't have -- I mean, you know, I accepted that, but I don't -- I just want to make sure we are not losing value -- Perreault: Okay. DeChambeau: -- because commercial is -- because you are going to make us do a transitional, so that the people in Tuscany don't get their lifestyle upset. It didn't matter that mine was upset when they built Tuscany, but now we have to be concerned with them, because they have lived there, what, 19 years? Perreault: So, ma'am, we will answer your question -- DeChambeau: But do you get what I'm saying? Perreault: I do. DeChambeau: We are trying to figure out what the -- how -- how this vote tonight is going to affect -- Perreault: I do. So, I think what you're are is is what -- to my knowledge there -- I mean typically overlays are in neighborhood associations and so -- do you know what she's referring to, Brian? DeChambeau: Brian and I have gone around and around about this and I still -- like I said, I'm just a knucklehead. I can't get it. McClure: Madam Chair -- Madam Chair, Mary -- not stupid. It is confusing. So, some of the terminology has similar acronyms. What Mary's property currently is on the map is -- you can see the brown half circle there, that's mixed use neighborhood and, then, portions of it that kind of finger out are medium density residential. None of that's changing. In the adopted map currently, in big huge kind of serif font, is an NC, which means neighborhood center. The neighborhood centers is an addition to the normal mixed use designation and it requires, among, other things, a certain type of road network. So, it requires a very rigid kind of rectangular downtown, old town, sort of road network and, then, other sort of elements that support that. It doesn't allow or disallow any other uses or densities. It's specifically to how it can be designed. We are removing that restriction, because it's been difficult to get that. It's not worked well elsewhere. In fact, we haven't -- we have one neighborhood center that has a few of the uses we are looking for, but it does not have any the actual grid systems required by the neighborhood center. So, the one sort of good example we have isn't even NC. I think that answers most of the question. In terms of the earlier comments regarding mid mile commercial and the hard corner arterial questions, you can see to the east here there is a mixed use community designation on the southeast and northeast corners of Eagle and Victory, where Caleb's moving the mouse, and, then, also the -- the mixed use in there. When you have commercial go in the hard intersection corners it's typically more traffic and Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 66 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 64 of 107 more attention. That's -- that's generally where the commercial designations like to go. As soon as you allow any of them there you have -- you have diminished the ability to attract those on the -- on the center or half mile area. Those have both been there for a long time. We just don't feel like we can require that hard grid sort of a layout. The real neighborhood walkable kind of environment require it on the half mile. It's still allowed to go there. You can still do as much -- as much commercial, as much low or high density as a -- as a mixed use designation allows, it just doesn't change -- change the -- what's required for the road network, so it's sort of two separate things there, but commercial on the -- on the arterials was a comment about why the neighborhood centers are difficult and, then, the mixed use neighborhood center overlay doesn't allow or disallow any other uses or density that's already allowed with the underlying mixed use neighborhood designation. Perreault: Did that make sense? Holland: Madam Chair, one more clarification question for Brian. Perreault: Sure. Holland: So, you are removing the requirement that they have to have a certain road infrastructure with the neighborhood commercial in that -- there is -- there is six or so of those half circles. Are the half circle still going to stay on the future use map for those designations of mixed use neighborhood or what -- whatnot -- those -- that they are designated as? McClure: Madam Chair, Commissioner Holland. Yes, we are not changing -- where you see the NCs currently, we are not changing the mixed use designation on them. So, you can see that the -- what's proposed -- what's shown here is what's proposed by the steering committee and staff in this area. We are not -- we are -- it's just the NC overlay. Holland: I was asking to help try to clarify that it looks like it's staying pretty much the same. You will have the mixed use. DeChambeau: Right. No, I knew that was staying. It was just the overlay, you know, how much commercial they are leaving us with. Perreault: It sounds like that's going to be removed as part of the new comp plan. DeChambeau: And, see, that -- because they -- because I have the 2002 comp plan here and they moved it up there on the corner. So, that affects me moneywise a big deal and -- and it's been on there -- this NC has been on there since 2002. Okay? And now all of a sudden they are telling us -- I mean you had many -- you know, like 2006, 2010, when this was -- nobody made any move to do anything then and the neighborhood around me has been developed, you know, for quite some time. Nothing has changed, you know. And my point is is I know it's kind of opposite from everybody else's testimony and stuff, but if you have to do a transition, you know, and you have to have bigger lots around you, Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 67 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 65 of 107 you know, the only way you can make that up is to have a little bit of commercial in the front, you know. Do you see what I'm saying? Perreault: Yes. DeChambeau: And -- and we have waited a long time. We have been in this community, we have had that property, we just didn't come in -- you know, you guys made the decision. Okay? And now you're taking it away from us, you know. Because -- I guess that doesn't work for somebody else, you know. I -- it's very confusing, because all of a sudden you are doing this and you are doing that and you're doing -- you know, and -- and I -- Perreault: Ma'am, we -- we understand the concern and if you would give us an opportunity to help we will. DeChambeau: Okay. Perreault: Just give us a chance. DeChambeau: Okay. I'm sorry. Perreault: No. It's okay. McCarvel: Brian, am I understanding this right, the -- the use of the land is staying, it's the restrictions on how the roads and stuff are implemented and taking away that overlay. That's, basically, the only difference that's happening here. McClure: Madam Chair, Commissioner McCarvel, yes, it's -- there is several things in the neighborhood center. It's about connectivity, but the road layout is -- is the big one. It's really looking for something that's more like old town in downtown and we are removing that restriction. None of the other commercial allowances or disallowances or however you want to look at it are changing on it. Perreault: Wouldn't that technically make it more appealing in the sense that there is less -- there is less requirement on the developer and what they can put in that area? McClure: Madam Chair, that was my thought and perspective, but there is -- there is several ways of looking at that I guess, so -- Perreault: That's where the developer potentially come and request that change at a later -- look at an actual application comes, can it be -- I mean I don't know why he would request to have it added back in, but -- McClure: Madam Chair, the -- the mixed use neighborhood center overlay -- it's just a design philosophy. Someone can certainly propose that there. They don't need to have the requirements there to do that. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 68 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 66 of 107 Perreault: So, if somebody were -- who -- who would buy your property because of what you believe is the uniqueness of the -- the current comp plan designation, is -- it's not going to -- it's not going to be harmful to you that they are removing this, because that -- they will still be able to implement those design elements if they would like to. There is -- they can still apply to the city to do that. DeChambeau: Okay. Because I just -- because I -- I know that some of the developers are trying to down zone it -- some of the offers. Okay? So, I just wanted this on record, you know, that it's just a design thing. It's not taking away the amount of commercial we can have. Perreault: The actual future land use -- land use designation is not changing, outside of that overlay. DeChambeau: And also -- I also heard -- you know, I know people want open space, you know. I love space, too. But, you know, after holding onto a piece of property this long, it's my retirement, and to -- to require, you know, say a farmer selling their place, you know, these developers -- and, then, I will shut up. These developers come in and they base their price based on what the comp plan allows them to do and based on how many houses they can put on. So, you're basically telling that person what their farm is worth, you know, and what people don't realize is when you sell your farm you're selling your job, too, you know. And -- you know. I mean that's -- you know, that's the way it goes. Perreault: No. We understand. DeChambeau: But -- you know. So, what -- you know, when people come in and buy their -- their wonderful little places, you know, what's happening behind me. So, the five acre places now, they want to divide two or three houses and they -- because that's how they are going to pay for their retirement or they want to go buy another big house or they are going to go buy -- you know what I mean? So, they are just as much part of the problem as farmers selling out and, like I said, my lifestyle has just been -- you know, they -- you can't farm around a subdivision. So, I get that. Now I just want to maximize and make sure that when the comp plan comes in that it's just a design issue, it's not taking away if -- if somebody wants to come in and put a bigger facility in there. Perreault: That's our understanding from what staff has said. DeChambeau: Okay. Perreault: Correct. DeChambeau: Thank you. That's all I wanted. Thank you. Perreault: Thank you very much. Okay. Is there -- you said there is nobody else specifically signed up? Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 69 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 67 of 107 Weatherly: Madam Chair, that's correct. Perreault: Okay. Is there anyone else that has -- please come forward. Yorgason: Good evening, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. My name is Dave Yorgason. My address is 14254 West Battenburg Drive, Boise. And I'm here wearing probably two hats at least. One is on behalf of the Building Contractors Association of Southwest Idaho. Also as a local developer. And I want to, first of all, issue my compliments to the committee and to staff. I do not have and I will not issue comments in the weeds -- of the details, because they have gone through a lot of effort and it's not an easy effort and I compliment all of them. I appreciate what Lisa Holland has said, as well as Susan Karnes and others. So, I will leave it at that. I do have a few comments. Specifically one is regarding to the service impact tool or the reference to that. My apologies for not being here earlier. I was at my son's piano recital. He was last on the list. I did have a chance to listen to that before. I have done a little bit of research into it. I will continue to study to understand what that means and how that actually applies to the housing industry and so I don't have any further comments to that. I look forward to working with staff to further understand it and working with them as they define what that means going forward. I recognize there is some discussions about pulling back the area of impact. I think Commissioner Olsen referenced that. I would just say your choice -- your call, I would issue you caution. If you do that I can assure you there is at least two cities that are adjacent to you, one to the north, one of the south, will, then, acquire that land in their area of impact if you choose to give it up. Just saying. Also I heard references to immediate adoption of code change to open space calculations. Obviously, we don't have anything here in writing for review and consideration. However, on behalf of the homebuilding association we are absolutely committed to working with staff to make that one of your -- if not the highest priority, to help make those changes. I have worked with numerous developments in the city of Eagle and in Meridian over the last more than 20 years and I'm very familiar with high end developments. That's what I have done. I'm very familiar with how to apply the amenities in an appropriate way to add value to not only our developments, but also we would often have other developers follow our development applications, because they would see the actual value we added, because they would feed off of ours. I also was involved in writing the -- and I'm not a resident of Eagle, but as a -- as a participant I helped write the code ordinance for open space for the city of Eagle. I'm very well aware of that process and look forward to helping the city of Eagle there. But changing it on the comp plan without a whole lot of effort there, I just issued a whole lot of caution and concern. But we do want to not say push pause, but, rather, we want to say let's get it right and do it immediately. We look forward to working with the city in that way. Lastly, if you have any questions for me on how to implement large lots subdivisions and how that applies to services to cities, I would be happy to answer any questions you have on that. I have developed in north Eagle. I have developed in south Eagle, which is, frankly, north Meridian, and other areas and a list of four or five or more developments that have three quarter acre to one to one and a half acre size lots and larger. Two acre size lots. And what amenities or services can be applied does vary. Putting sewer and water in a development with larger one acre size lots is infeasible. We don't do that. And the city staff would -- and Public Works Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 70 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 68 of 107 Department would probably encourage or complement that as well. I will leave my comments there. Again, I support staff and the comments that have been addressed and stand for any questions. Perreault: Dave, I have a question for you. Yorgason: Sure. Perreault: So, have you ever seen a situation in your experience where a landowner wanted to sell their acreage property for the purpose of greater density development, but the services couldn't be supplied to them because they -- sorry -- the services couldn't be supplied to them because the -- the city had not planned to provide services because of a comprehensive plan designation or something along those lines? Yorgason: Madam Chair, I don't know if you are referring to sewer or water or emergency services. Those are typically the services that this city provides. Yes. Regarding sewer and water. Not so much in the City of Meridian, but I am aware of the city of Eagle, which by the way is not a city service, that's the Eagle Sewer District, which is an alternate agency that's related, but totally not related agency and there was capacity constraints and so they have made a strong commitment to make sure they don't have that happen again, because of -- to your exact comment, there needs to be coordination. Now, fortunately for the City of Meridian you have that Public Works Department in house and so you can work more closely on planning. There is a concern -- I have heard your Public Works director or city engineer express the comments about planning for future when it pertains to mostly sewer -- with regard to the size of the sewer trunk lines. If they are looking out to the future and they are looking out one, two, five miles away, they need to know what that density might be approximately. They don't need to know exactly, they need to know approximate ranges, so that they don't install too large or too small of a sewer line, because if they miss it those areas -- if they miss it on one direction you can't service it. If you miss it the other direction it actually causes different problems for the city as well and they can -- your staff can address to that. So, I know that there is some sensitivities within your staff to get the densities right and whatever decisions are made here will have a direct impact on what those future sewer lines may be. I also know some sewer lines have already been installed near the freeway and it's poking to the south with certain anticipation. So, again, you can refer to your staff on that. Perreault: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Yorgason? Thank you very much. Yorgason: You're welcome. Thanks again. Perreault: We appreciate the BCA -- coming here as a representative of the BCA. Yorgason: You're welcome. And, again, we are here to support and help however we can. You're welcome. Perreault: Okay. Does anyone else have -- all right. Please come forward. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 71 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 69 of 107 Kidd: Madam Chairman, Commission, staff, my name is Dean Kidd. I represent the Vantage Point Subdivision and what I want to speak to you about is -- what I'm reading -- or hearing in the Comprehensive Plan that the rural-urban transition is being basically taken out. Is that not correct? McClure: Madam Chair. So, there is -- there is I think two separate things here. The rural estate residential future land use has been removed. The rural urban transition is a zoning designation that the county has for areas within the area of city impact. That -- that's not changing. That's a zoning designation in the county. So, rural estate residential land use gone. Rural urban transition zoning in the county remains. Kidd: For the county that is. How about -- how about the city? Perreault: Sorry, I'm not clear on your question, sir. Kidd: Well, what I'm -- what I'm alluding towards is that -- where we live in -- we have got 16 one acre lots or estate lots and I would say the average price of all the houses combined is three quarters of a million or better. There is a tremendous amount of buildings going on around us and what I'm alluding to is the same thing that the gal that was representing Rustler Lane, they have got five acres and houses being proposed -- high density houses and we could be faced with the same thing and I'm really wondering the Comprehensive Plan being a plan that you kind of used as a guide, some ain't necessarily going to be set in stone, but you have to adhere to that guide, but I really think that -- that you are losing the transition portion. It was mentioned that subdivisions throughout time is kind of like a brick of Swiss cheese and -- and we are part of that. We have been -- we have been out in this farming community with agricultural all the way around us for almost 20 years now. In -- in the last two years with what's being proposed -- it hasn't been approved yet, but being proposed with Capitol Hill Farm, that -- that's one of the biggies and that's just to the north of us, about 1,100 and -- I'm not going to exaggerate -- over 1,100 homes to be built within a mile of where our subdivision is. Many of these homes or many of the development is medium to high density. There is possibly high density going in adjacent to us and I'm really wondering if that -- if that is the father's plan -- the founding fathers' plans is to see estate lots with apartments and the fence being the only divider. So, I would really like to see some language put into the Comprehensive Plan to address this issue. Perreault: That addresses the transition. Kidd: The transition. That's absolutely right. Perreault: Okay. Kidd: And I thank you for your time. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 72 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 70 of 107 Perreault: Thank you very much. Is there anyone else? Okay. Are we done with public testimony? Wow, that's fantastic. All right. So, at this time does the city have anything else to add before we close the public hearing? McClure: Madam Chair, I think we would stand for questions, but I don't think we have any -- Perreault: Can you speak up just a little bit. McClure: Madam Chair, I think we would be happy to answer any specific questions, but I don't think we have anything else to add. Perreault: Do the Commissioners have any questions for staff? Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Seal: I would like you to go over the -- I mean can you explain the difficulties in supporting the rural low density as far as how that affects the city in future planning? Hood: Yeah. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, it's really -- it's really kind of twofold. One is -- and this actually goes broader than the rural estate density designation, but it even speaks to El Gato, even to a little lesser extent, but Locust View Heights. But it is what Mr. Yorgason brought up to some degree is we are planning for services someday. Honestly, if we didn't have to be so concerned about transparency, it would be nice to say low density. Hey, Public Works, go plan for four dwelling units an acre someday over there and leave it as it's shown now and -- and really try to protect that, but have that plan that someday will change the map to something else. But that isn't very transparent. That isn't explaining what you really want to happen at some -- or see happening at some time in the future. That plays in with rural estate as well. We have tried that since 2012 and it has not worked. There are other cities that will take that in and you will have property owners that will develop it at one, two, three, four, five dwelling units per acre. It's happening right now and it will continue to happen. That's -- that's why I don't think it's a good designation for the city to have. I'm not necessarily advocating to remove it from our area of city impact, but, really, if that's what we truly are thinking is a long term solution, that should be what the county plans for. Not a city, but a county. What -- the difference between the low and the rural estate is, again, those provision of services. If we are going to have five acre maximum lot sizes, it does not work well to run sewer and water out there. You just -- no one can afford that, basically, is what it comes down to. It's cost prohibitive to have that. Which, fine, but -- but know that then you are going to forever have septic and well systems out there and that's fine if that's what really is desired, then, again, we shouldn't do that, we should work with the county to say, boy, we sure hope you can preserve that, because we don't have the tools. That's not what we do. So, that's really why, again, from staff's perspective it's -- it's similar to some of the other -- it's not -- it's not planning, it's crossing your fingers and hoping that -- that Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 73 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 71 of 107 prefer some of those market pressures to eventually develop those lands, but, really, we can't stop that from happening. Seal: So -- so, if I understand you correctly, it's -- essentially, we are putting -- if we are going to bring that into the city's area of impact, we want to make sure that we put a marker on there that we can fully support and sustain with the services that the city is going to supply and having something out there that is a five -- you know, five acre, ten acre plus is something that the city simply cannot sustain and that would be something that we would consider to leave in the county's hands. However, in doing that in the past that's led to other cities coming in and developing it in -- at a rate or at a density that's even higher than what would be designated. Hood: That was stated more eloquently than I did. I do want to make a couple of comments, though, on that. So, the rural estate designation, we envision that being a redevelopment even have 40 and 80 and 120 acre parcels that currently exist, right, and taking a 40 acre and making it eight five acre lots someday. Development. So, as we aren't really talking about the Stetsons, the Rustlers of the world. We are not saying it's -- the city doesn't want have anything to do with five acre lots. What we are saying is we don't want to perpetuate the development of five acre lots. If they are here, enjoy it. These -- these are some awesome places and we are not saying we are kicking you out, you can't have a five acre -- no, that's not -- that's not the message we are trying to send. It's -- again, at some point in time -- we have seen that being split. Or maybe three lots out of five or ten acres and just one more -- one more point on that. The low density -- and I get it. It does, it allows up to three. It does. So, if -- if that developer bought ten acres, but -- on paper you could get 30, but if that development is lined up to five acre lots, staff is not going to split it. That's not going to fly with the neighborhood. You're not going to get three -- it's that range. You are going to be closer to the 11 dwelling units per acre side than the three and I think you get that. But that's -- there is some subjectiveness that goes into that. That's not buy one and get three. No. It's the context of your project. What's going on around you and be respectful of what already exists there and you are going to transition to that and if you have got five and tens on your boundary, you are going to need to have larger lots there than 8,000 square foot. I mean that's just how it's going to work. So, I get that that doesn't come through in the plan necessarily, but we do have policies on transition and some of those things and -- and that is just part of the public process going forward, too, on a case-by-case basis when this comes in. So, just -- from staff's perspective, we believe that lower density designation -- we can still get one, two, three, four, you know, acre lot sizes potentially. Even five acre lot sizes. We just aren't promoting that, because it's really not very viable as a land use with an urban density just to have a whole bunch of five acre lots everywhere. Seal: Okay. Thank you. Perreault: Okay. But in that regard, Caleb, then, is there -- is there a lot size that -- that makes it worth -- you know, worth planning on the city's part? Is it -- is it the -- is it the Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 74 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 72 of 107 one -- one unit per acre? I mean is it possible to create a designation that's one unit -- one unit per acre and above or is that too restrictive? Hood: Well, Madam Chair, it's possible. Again, we have it on the books now. I mean we have got that rural estate designation right now. Perreault: I thought you said that was five. Is that not -- it's one -- Hood: Five. Yeah. Perreault: One or -- or higher. Hood: If you wanted to separate that -- I'm sorry, Madam Chair. If you want -- if you wanted to break the low into two and have an ultra low and say that's up to one acre lots -- again, you could do that. You could -- you could separate that up and break that into whatever types of categories you want. It doesn't allow a whole lot of range; right? I mean -- Perreault: Right. Hood: But I mean it's possible. You certainly could do that. Perreault: Okay. Holland: Madam Chair. In the -- in the low density category, we -- do we have a minimum lot size that the new code would require for them? If someone was to come in and say they wanted to do a five one acre lot subdivision. Hood: So, Madam Chair, Commissioner Holland, no -- it's a good question, but, no, there is not -- our lowest -- lowest zoning designation you can ask for at annexation or rezone is an R-2 and I believe that's a 16,000 square foot minimum lot size. That's the smallest -- that's the largest smallest lot size. That's -- so, that's the minimum lot size. That's the smallest you could get in an R-2. It could be bigger than that. Again, it could be one acre or two acre or five acre. That's the smallest it could get was -- would be 16,000 square foot in an R-2. But that's in our zoning code. That's not the comp plan. The comp plan will look at the overall densities. Holland: Thank you. Olsen: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Olsen. Olsen: Brian, could you explain again this -- that comment you made about the county designation of rural? I didn't quite catch that. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 75 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 73 of 107 McClure: Madam Chair, Commissioner Olsen, so the county has a zoning designation currently called rural urban transition. I'm going to butcher this, but I would just summarize it as basically a holding zone for this city. If you read -- if you read the description in the Ada county's code, it's basically -- you can do a whole lot of rural uses for the time being, but at some point we expect that to be part of the -- part of the city's -- where it's Meridian, Boise, whoever. It's basically a holding zone. Perreault: Which is not necessarily applicable in this case if the intention is that the comp plans will be revised every decade or so. McClure: Madam Chair, the rural urban transition zoning designation -- it's important to be aware of that, but it doesn't have anything in the comp plan, because it would assume as an annexation that's going to occur and, then, you would come into the -- into a city with something else. At least as I understand it, that -- Perreault: Okay. Sorry. Maybe perhaps I misunderstood Commissioner Olsen's question. I was -- I was -- I thought you were making a comparison between their -- what they have set up and something that could apply to our comp plan, but that's not the case. Is that right? McClure: Madam Chair, that's correct. One's zoning in the county, one's a future land use in the city. Perreault: Yes. Okay. McClure: Sorry. Perreault: No. I understood that, but -- we are good. Okay. All right. So, at this time I will take a motion to close the public hearing. McCarvel: So moved. Holland: Second. Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearing for October 17th, 2019. All those in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. TWO ABSENT. Perreault: Okay. At this time we are going to take a quick break and, then, the Commissioners will deliberate all of these comments tonight. We appreciate everybody staying here so far. (Recess: 10:00 p.m. to 10:11 p.m.) Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 76 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 74 of 107 Perreault: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to go ahead and get started on the Commission's deliberation of our hearing this evening. So, if you are going to join us I would ask that you take your seats and we will get started. Who wants to do the honors of being the first to speak? McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: I think I will start by just saying I would like to see -- I'm in agreement with a lot of the public here that would like to see a very low -- just for the fact of marking -- I don't -- I don't want to see new development with that, but to mark the things that are already in existence properly, so that we get proper transition next to it. I think that's my biggest thing I have taken out of the public testimony and I think just some common sense. Not that we have to expand and change what, you know, we have got marked as low to very low and make those kind of changes, but just to have the opportunity to mark what's already in existence of some things that probably -- of homes that aren't necessarily going to be ones that will be torn down. Those communities are already in existence. Perreault: Okay. Olsen: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Olsen. Olsen: I agree with that. I would also like to see as -- I understand -- or I think I understand the nuances of removing the rural name or zoning or whatever it is that we are calling -- Perreault: Designation. Olsen: Designation. Thank you. But I have a hard time thinking that that's really indicative of our community. We have a lot of rural areas and I think we should take a second look at eliminating that designation or maybe it's got a different name or maybe it's defined differently, but I think we have to honor that. Perreault: Okay. Do you have any comments -- was this a discussion as part of the steering committee and -- Holland: Madam Chair, I could defer to Caleb for some of this conversation, too, is we -- we talk about land use planning, but I think the intent was to try and -- it gets really complicated when you have too many land use designations when you're looking at a future land use map, because it's not -- it's not a zoning map and its goal is to help provide a guide for how the city should grow in the future. The low density designation doesn't mean that those lots of need to all redevelop as three units per acre, it just means that if it were to ever redevelop that's the maximum that it could divide to, at least at this point in time, until this Comprehensive Plan is re-looked at at some point in the future. So, I Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 77 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 75 of 107 think the intent of staff to change and remove the rural classification is because the first map that staff put up there was showing where Meridian is situated in comparison with the rest of the valley, even though we do have some rural areas still in Meridian, as the community continues to see growth happening Meridian is in the center of that and on all sides of us we are surrounded by other city limits, so I think the points that Mr. Yorgason made about if you were to plan for those areas to be five acre lot subdivisions and have them really stay rural, it makes it tough to plan city services for that area in the future and if you don't plan city services in the future, at some point if one of those landowners in one of those areas decides that they want to sell to a developer and that developer wants to figure out where can they get the nearest city services from, they are going to go to the city that can help service them and request that they would be annexed in. So, if you leave it in the county you leave a lot of room for how those lines get redefined in the future and I know Kuna and Meridian worked really hard to try and figure out how to realign that southern boundary so that it wasn't a dispute of who wants what, it was a spirit of who can service what and what's the best for the long term growth of both cities and the region. So, I guess I struggle a little bit with -- with adding in another designation, not because I don't want to protect a lot of these estate lots, I think it's important to have those, but I think we can still preserve those within the low density designation, too, and perhaps there is something we can do to give the public a little bit more reassurance about that, that they still have their -- their property rights and they don't have to be forced to -- to sell and they don't have to be forced to subdivide, it just gives them protection that they can't have more than X number of lots in those -- those areas. So, I guess I see both sides. I get the concern of wanting to have a lower density designation, too, but I know when you're thinking about what happens in the future of the city, we are trying to look 20 years into the future of how does this city develop over time and trying to make the best overlay about how we make those decisions in the future. Perreault: And if those properties in the future were to need or want to sell, because the city did not bring services out, because the designation did not encourage Public Works to put that into the consideration, then, it could devalue those properties when it comes to them being sold, you know, and we are talking -- we are talking years away, of course. This is the -- that's what the conversation is about tonight is -- is future. If the city doesn't plan to take services out there, then, when they do go to sell at some point in the future, so that it is divided into greater density, then, the services are not there and it could devalue the property. Okay. That was not me saying that I'm not necessarily in agreement with -- with the recommendation, because I can also see both sides. It's just putting that out there to the public. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Yeah, I guess my -- my point was just to mark what's already there in existence of homes that probably -- places that aren't probably going to be subdivided and to market -- especially the ones that are bordering the other -- that are on the outskirts like we have as an indicator to city -- you know, cities that are coming from around us to know that, hey, those properties are not just low, they are very low and so that they have an indicator of what's actually in existence there, instead of trying to just slap a medium density right up next to something that's technically ultra low, because I Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 78 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 76 of 107 know when they go into their meetings they look at, well, this is what Meridian has there. They have got one to three, thinking, well, we will slap five to seven next to it. Perreault: You're talking about as a transition as -- McCarvel: Yeah. Just to market, so it -- it helps your transition. Yeah. Perreault: Okay. McCarvel: I'm not saying that they would do anymore development of the ultra low, because as they have indicated, we could do the ultra low in what we have got marked as low. Perreault: Okay. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Olsen -- sorry. Commissioner Seal. Seal: We move around a little bit. I understand staff's recommendation to, you know, essentially, eliminate that -- the rural -- the rural low density. However, I think since we do have verbiage other places in the Comprehensive Plan that speaks to rural that -- I mean several of those have been quoted, I think it's probably in our best interest to have some kind of designation that has rural in there and, in effect -- of course, we do want to be transparent, but at the same time I think that those are more or less a placeholder, because I mean as -- as expansion comes in, property taxes go up, pieces of land become less desirable because of -- of different developments around them, those parcels are probably going to be sold. I mean the farmland around in our communities is diminishing daily, basically, and that's, you know, just a product of growth. So, we are going to continue to grow. At some point in time somebody's going to grow. You know, a family isn't going to have somebody that wants to take over a piece of land, they -- they are going to sell their farm, they are going to sell their -- you know, their estate. They are going to do something along those lines and -- you know. And that's an eventuality that's going to happen just because of -- you know, because of economics for the most part, so -- as -- as that happens I think we do need to have some kind of marker on that property, however, that allows us to continue developing towards that area, but it still protects the -- you know, essentially, the -- what would you call it? The character of the -- of the land that's involved, meaning that it is already a rural low density, so let's call it what it is, but understand that we need to put a marker on there, because if we don't somebody is going to and if another city does it, they may not be as polite about it. So, somebody's going to try and grab up, because we are definitely in the middle -- right square in the middle of the rest of the cities that have the ability to do that. It's -- it's a fairly -- in my mind it's fairly cut and dried as far as the -- the folks out on Rustler. I mean it's a piece of land that's fairly easily identifiable that those are, you know, rural estates. The problem that we may run into is if we -- you know, to play the other side of that is if we do designate that as rural low density, then, we have a medium density that's right next to it. How does that Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 79 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 77 of 107 play into it? Does that transition well? Are we creating another problem just by doing that? So, playing my own devil's advocate in that -- in that situation. But, again, just trying to get everything out there for -- for public record. The one that's more troubling to me is -- is the -- the properties up by El Gato where that's right by the rail line and there are several properties there that are smaller estates. There is also large chunks of farmland that are there and that becomes more difficult to me to where maybe instead of grabbing all of that land and redesignating it, maybe a smaller portion that's just really the farm -- farmland frontage next to the railroad tracks could be a -- you know, something that more people would get behind, but I mean for the most part everything that I have heard in here speaks to -- we kind of want to keep our rural identity some way, shape, or form. So, I think maybe we should try and move in that direction. Perreault: So, I have many thoughts on the -- on the -- the El Gato Lane. I live right next to El Gato Lane, so I have some thoughts on that and I -- and I think we should have some discussion on that, but I want to finish real quickly on Rustler Place. This is -- you know, Ten Mile is going to become a corridor and if you look at the transportation -- the transportation survey that was done that was included as part of the -- of the comp plan, you know, Overland and Ten Mile is -- is slated to potentially be a transportation area and that's only a mile from this and so, you know, my thought is is that -- because if -- if -- if or when that becomes a transportation hub, that's going to affect this as far as density goes, in my opinion, and I also think that it is a little bit odd to have that mixed use neighborhood and, then, low density and, then, medium density and, then, low density -- like that entire quadrant feels like that it could use some more conversation and especially in relationship to it being a mile from a potential transportation hub in the not far future. So, I think once -- once or if there is a transportation hub that comes in there and as the Ten Mile interchange area gets re -- gets developed, that that is going to change the -- the feel of this area and I think we just need to -- I'm not making a proposal one way or the other. I think we just need to kind of think about that as we are considering this particular square mile that -- that that's -- that's not far off and that that may -- may make this area -- it may make it such that there will be a push, as Caleb mentioned -- economic or market trends may push this area to a higher density because of that transportation application. So, just kind of something that I have been rolling around in my mind about this piece as we have talked about it. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I think my suggestion maybe that we go through each of these sections one by one, like we did collecting testimonies, because I think it will be easier to kind of walk through all of them, but if we want to start with that -- that area in southwest Meridian. I know we had a lot of conversations in the Comprehensive Plan committee meetings about southwest Meridian and knowing that over time it would need more discussion about how that would develop, because there are -- Ten Mile is slated at some point to become a four lane road that will have a lot more traffic on it in the future and I think that's what the intent of having that mixed use neighborhood center is there. We had some Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 80 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 78 of 107 conversations about -- if you have a mixed use neighborhood center typically what you want to do is have it be in an area where there is walkability for residents, there is enough density to support some of that commercial and, yes, there is -- there is traffic coming in and out from Kuna that -- that use that highway to get to the interstate and I think it's important to have some of that commercial on that Ten Mile frontage. At the same time it doesn't make sense to have low density housing next to commercial, next to medium density kind of sandwiched in between, and so it's already existing as low density, we definitely want to be able to protect them, because they are not likely to sell their lots, they want to stay there. They have got these nice estate lots there. So, this area I think could use a little bit more conversation. I'm going to take a step back before we keep talking about south -- southwest Meridian more specific and just give kind of a couple of broad comments if I can. So, first of all, thank you to all the community members who are here and for all those who participated in the Comprehensive Plan process, because the staff did a fabulous job of doing as much outreach as possible and for a city to have over 5,000 responses from the community is huge in -- in the way that comprehensive plans are run. It's a long process. We have been working on this since June of -- a year and a half ago. So, I have been serving on that committee, we have been meeting once a month, and I want you to know that we have -- we have been deliberating on this with you and we love hearing the feedback, we love hearing the testimony and we have evaluated each one of these areas and -- in great detail to try and come up with the best recommendations we can for the future of what we want Meridian to be. As was mentioned earlier, we are all volunteers, we all live in the City of Meridian, we really care about how this community develops and we want to preserve the special places that make money and what it is. Just a couple comments about the comp plan in general. It's a tool that we use, so it -- when we are talking about the text in the comp plan, I just want to give a shout out to staff for how much work went into the text and how much cleaner it is, because that online tool is fabulous for -- if we are meeting with a -- if a developer is bringing a proposal forward to us, we have the ability to quickly search for terms that can help us in the way that we evaluate those -- those development proposals. So, I think -- I would assume that most of the comments here is that the text in the Comprehensive Plan itself is a really strong guide and a really good next step for us. Most of the comments here that we are deliberating on is just that future use map. I also want to say that in the recommendations that staff bring to us -- I know there were some comments that were directed towards staff about having certain motives, but I just want to assure the -- the room that when we use the -- staff use the comp plan and the city code to help guide the recommendations that they bring forward to this Commission and also to Council and they work hard so that when we review stuff we are kind of that next step where we really get the public interaction and make sure that we are evaluating those tools and staff recommendations to make sure that we make the best recommendation for the city. So, those are just a couple broad comments, but the other comment is that no one's forcing any property owners to rezone their property. If they are to develop in some point in the future those landowners have to work together for a lot of those areas where we are looking at, where there is 50 or more rural lots altogether. If those areas are going to ever redevelop there is going to be a lot more coordination and a lot more specific conversations that have to happen. It's not -- we are not saying anything's going to happen today with -- regardless of what decision we come up with. And the only other comment -- we kind of already Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 81 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 79 of 107 touched on it, too, but if you keep some of these rural urban transition lots and you want them to stay in the county versus the city, one of the benefits for being in the city is public safety, having some of the amenities of being a city resident. County doesn't typically have the resources to provide a lot of those same amenities and they don't want to be managing 40 acres worth of one acre lots, it's -- it's way too much work for the county to do. And also with Public Works, they have to maintain certain standards of water quality and sewer quality and make sure that they service properties if you are within city limits. So, if we do too much of the rural all together in a big clump, it can make it challenging for long term servicing and success as a community. So, those are just my general comments I wanted to throw out there, but sorry that was a lot. Perreault: Not at all. I appreciate -- I appreciate that we have two members of the Commission who were on the steering committee. I think it's exceptionally helpful for us tonight, because you got to actually hear those -- all of the conversations that have gone in for the steering committee. So, I value both of your input on this for sure. Did you have additional things to add on -- on -- on Rustler Place? Holland: Yeah. You know, I -- I struggle with that one, too, a little bit and I -- I think that the staff recommendation is a good kind of middle road compromise to make sure that it gets designated the way that it should be of being low density residential. You mentioned earlier in comments that we are actually making a change to downgrade that, which doesn't happen very often. So, I would agree with what staff's recommendations are here and I think at some point where that mixed -- mixed use neighborhood center wants to start looking at it, we are going to have to have some really significant conversations about buffers and transitions to make sure that that fits, but the nice thing is that we will be -- we will be hearing those applications before they move forward, because that area would also be annexed in and planned out. Perreault: And to clarify for the -- for the audience tonight, mixed use neighborhood is comprised of about 70 percent residential. So, it might sound like it's heavier on the commercial use, but it's actually not. It's much heavier on the neighborhood and residential use. So, just -- just to give you that -- that idea that it's -- the mixed use neighborhood is intended to really provide services to the residents that live around it and not be commercial shopping centers, just to kind of ease concerns if -- if there are any. It could be for schools and parks or those kind of thing. Perreault: Yeah. There isn't -- it's a broad -- civic use is a common thing that's put in that, so it's -- it's really I guess a calmer environment than -- than a commercial use would be. So, that being said, so you -- so, Lisa, your recommendation is that we leave it as the staff has recommended. Holland: That would be my consideration and I think the other note I would make is if there really is a medium density application coming forward we would make sure that there would be significant buffers and transitions and that they would work with neighbors to figure out what that would look like, because we don't want to create bad boundaries between neighborhoods. So, we take a lot of that into consideration and would make Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 82 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 80 of 107 sure that maybe there is open space buffers between some of those lots, if there is a medium density application that would come forward. So, I think we -- we consider that on a case-by-case basis. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: Yeah. I think that was my only reasoning for recommending having that very low designation, is just so any developers coming up next to it really have a good idea of what's really already in existence. Not that we should plan for any more very low that comes into the city, but just so what's already in existence gets marked. But I think, you know, as -- as staff and Lisa and we all know, you know, we tried to do that by a case-by- case basis when applications come forward, but just transparency wise. Perreault: Yeah. McCarvel: Nice to acknowledge what's already in existence, but that -- I'm supportive of what's there, too. Perreault: With that, Commissioner McCarvel, would you, then, recommend if -- if that were to be in place, the -- the lower density -- a lower density designation, would -- designation, would you, then, want to move the medium density residential designation to a low -- low density? Is that -- McCarvel: Not necessarily, because I think -- I mean the overall mix of that could be medium density, it's just -- it would kind of flag any developer to know that, hey, you have got to do some different things out along the edges at least to transition. Yeah. That they need some bear lots along the edges to transition to that and what size lots they should be thinking of, because it's not just low, it's very low. But that's -- that's final, you know. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: One more comment I would make on -- on adding another designation, if we choose to do that or -- or recommend that to staff, is that it -- it could further extend this time process again, because they would have to go back and reevaluate of the low density parcels which ones are ultra low versus regular low. It could just add another layer of complexity and so I think it would be my preference to see it stay low density the way that it is and maybe we can look at parameters of trying to put in better language about how do we do transitions, how do we protect property rights and make sure we do some education on that and I don't know if Caleb or Brian have any additional thoughts on that, on adding an ultra low versus keeping it all low, but -- McCarvel: Madam Chair? Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 83 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 81 of 107 Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: I guess I have a question then -- because I know Susan had mentioned that they are still going through, you know, street by street and trying to help out and designate and all that. So, is there any wiggle room for that to come in after the fact to correct what's already in existence? I don't -- I don't want to change our plan for, you know, what's -- but just to be able to do markers for what's already in existence. That's all. Holland: Madam Chair. Sorry. Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I think what we could do, if we wanted to, is to leave it open to advise staff that we want them to evaluate the existing map to identify the low density parcels where they should be allocated and leave room for amendments to that comprehensive map specific to southern rim or to specific to southwest Meridian if we choose to do that. Perreault: Are you saying that -- where we would request them to do that prior to City Council or -- Holland: No. Perreault: -- is that something in the future? Holland: Just in the future. That we will leave it open for that to not be a comprehensive map plan amendment application, but that there would be a note that there are some areas of Meridian still being evaluated that may come back before us as a -- I think they should still have to bring it back before us for consideration, but they could bring that back before us without having to go through another application just to continue that process essentially, yeah. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: Just for what -- yeah, just corrections for what's already out there, not for -- to reevaluate what we are -- what we are pushing through tonight. Perreault: Okay. So, is this something that we want to recommend to City Council and just kind of leave it there, that they look into a potential -- potential lower designation? McCarvel: I think -- yeah. Perreault: Or -- Olsen: Yes, I think so. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 84 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 82 of 107 McCarvel: Yeah. I don't think we need to mandate that it -- all of it happened before City Council. Perreault: Okay. McCarvel: I'm in support of what staff's recommendation is on Rustler. That's our topic right at this moment, so -- Perreault: Uh-huh. Okay. Well, it is and it isn't, because it is our topic right this moment, but we also are looking at the plan as a whole and that's -- that's what we are working on this evening. So, I think we have to kind of consider both -- both this specific area, but also the comp plan in its entirety and so if there are -- if there are changes to any of the designations specifically, then, we will want to make those recommendations for sure. So -- so my thought on this is -- and I don't know, actually, how this would play out with -- with the timing of everything, but I would -- I would like to see some additional conversation on -- on that entire square mile. But as far as how -- what my recommendation would be to actually make a change to what staff has recommended, I don't -- I don't have a specific one. I almost -- I'm hesitant to -- there was another person who came up and gave testimony regarding some other properties at Meridian Road and Victory and at Locust Grove and McMillan and we had conversations about those specific to an application or specific owner that wants to use those properties in a way that they already have in the works, they already have some plans and they are asking for comp plan changes because they have something specific in mind and the same thing with this medium density piece, I'm not -- you know, I haven't not reviewed an application that has come before us or seen an application that's come before us on that, but I'm -- I'm very hesitant to make decisions about the comp plan based on -- on any applications existing or in the works. I just -- I have a lot of hesitancy with that. I feel like that if that's the case, then, the -- the developer needs to just come and request an amendment. But in this situation it sounds like that that -- that that potential developer would -- would already be within the comp plan as it's proposed. Actually, they -- they would be in the adopted comp plan, as well as what is proposed. So, I don't know that that really helps the neighbors of Rustler in that regard. It doesn't help the neighbors of Rustler to leave it as it's adopted or with the staff -- staff's recommendation as it -- as it applies to this other development that's -- that's being proposed, so -- Holland: So, what I have written down, just to summarize -- Perreault: Yes. Please do. Holland: We would ask Council to take into consideration the creation or evaluation of an ultra low density designation. So, we are not demanding that they do that, but we are saying that we want them to consider it, to evaluate it and have a conversation about it and to leave room for staff to evaluate low density subdivisions that should be reflected on the future use map accordingly. Those are the two notes that I have down. It didn't Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 85 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 83 of 107 reflect what you just said about that specific neighborhood with the medium density. I'm not sure if you want me to indicate anything on that, but -- Perreault: I don't think so. I mean this is -- this is the most difficult part this process is we have to make it general and we have to be specific at the same time and so that's the tough part of this. I think that's -- you will see a struggle with that. I don't think this entire quadrant should be low density residential. I think that would be unwise for us and short sighted for us to make it -- to recommend that, especially if there is going to be mixed use neighborhood going in. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Seal: If I can throw in on that just a little bit and as I look at this I'm -- and I mean I will make a comparison to the Magic Bridge, you know, Subdivision or area. We basically had one person -- yeah. The -- I mean, essentially, we have got a piece of land that has estate properties on it, it's -- it's next to the mixed use and, then, you got medium density on the other side and as you -- as you pointed out, it's, essentially, a mile away from the Ten Mile interchange, which is going to develop like crazy. I mean if anybody's driven out there -- I used to live in Kuna, I used to drive up Ten Mile Road. I fantasized about living in these, you know, one to ten acre estates my whole life. So, they are -- they are very very nice. That said, all -- there is going to be a lot of development that's going to be encroaching upon them and I use the example of the -- the gentleman that came from Magic Bridge basically said the same thing. As soon as the property value is depleted because of all the encroachment that was coming in on there, people start diving out of those places. So, how do we make sure that we keep that designation in there and I -- honestly, I think that if we have a rural designation on it, then, it -- it helps to lock that into place more or less, then a -- you know, essentially, a low density residential would do. I don't want to make things more confusing. That said -- I mean I think that there is a -- there is a compelling case to have something like that, something like a rural designation in there, so we can help to lock that into place, knowing that in time that that is going to have to change. Right now I think it's something that we need. Perreault: Again that brings up the point -- and just want to reassure all those who are in this room that this being future land use is only applicable when or if the individual property owners sell and if they sell to somebody who wants to create a different use. So, as -- having those private property rights, that individual property -- current property owner can choose who they -- who they are interested in selling -- selling their property to. Now, I realized that it could be sold and -- and they -- you know, they may not know what that person does with it in the future. However, hopefully, since you don't live there anymore, it won't matter as much to -- to that individual, but -- but as far as protecting the integrity of an entire neighborhood, you know, no neighbor wants to know that their -- that the neighbor next to them has the option to do that and I realized that and I understand that it's very specific to this neighborhood, as well as El Gato, that they don't -- they don't want to allow there to be that option. However, it -- it would be interesting for -- just how -- how Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 86 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 84 of 107 this property -- specifically how Rustler is set up, sitting right in the middle of that square mile, you know, I'm not sure how actually a developer could come in, take one of those ten acre pieces, subdivide it into something smaller and actually get roads in there. I don't even know that that's geographically possible to do. So, that's just something to throw out there. I mean we can talk about, you know, how this is set up, but I'm not even sure that somebody could or would take one piece that was sold by a private person, subdivided it into something smaller. They wouldn't be able to get access and they would have to have access from -- from Ten Mile or Victory or a collector road that doesn't exist yet. So, just -- just being -- trying to get into that a little bit more. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Seal: I mean in looking -- in looking at that where you have a medium density residential that's right next to it, if that developed first -- and, again, we are talking way down the road, if that developed first that, essentially, opens the door for some kind of connector that's going to come in there. So, that's -- as I'm looking at this -- I mean in order to protect that I would just like to see something that says rural on it and that the city defines something that helps to protect that area to -- to a larger extent. I mean I could almost say that about some of the farming land that's out there, it would -- Perreault: It would make more sense, though, than to just try to change the medium density residential designation versus create a new one. In this particular case. Holland: Madam Chair, if I may. Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I think Caleb mentioned it, but we do have some standards about transitions and, as staff mentioned, if someone came in and they wanted to put eight lot lines next to one lot, staff wouldn't recommend that coming forward to that applicant. They would say we need to create a better transition and let's use your density and spread it, so that you're not putting those lots right next to the rural lots or the more low density lots there. I think the term low density itself gives them some protection, because if you're a developer looking at a neighborhood that you want to put in there and you see that there is low density there, they are going to know we are going to have to give some significant transition to that neighborhood and I don't know that putting ultra low density on there makes it that much different, because I think they are still going to recognize that it's low density, they will see what the lot size looks like when they look at the lot lines and they will know that they need to work on figuring out how to coordinate that back and forth. That's just my comment. I -- I still will put it in there that we want them to consider the creation and the evaluation of that, but I don't know that -- I don't know that it's going to make that much of a difference if somebody is looking at developing next to it. Just my two cents. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 87 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 85 of 107 Perreault: No. I think that -- I think that's where we should leave it at this moment for this specific -- specific piece of the staff report. We have a lot to get to. But I think that's a very good place for us to -- a good recommendation to make. Any other comments? Okay. So, I would recommend that we move on to the El Gato area and I would like to first say that I live very close to this area, right off of Black Cat. I am one of those walkers and joggers that uses El Gato, because it is a beautiful area, and as I rolled that around in my head reading through all of the information, I would -- and I am not -- my job here is to represent the entire city and not my personal interest, so I want to clarify that. But the reason I bring up that I live in that area is because I'm intimately familiar with what it is that everyone has shared here tonight about that region and I would -- it is such a well- established community and I would -- I would recommend that we consider adjusting that industrial location to -- to south of -- of the homes that are on that -- that are on El Gato Lane from Black Cat to McDermott. Now, whether or not that gets adjusted below the railroad may be another question. What are the Commissioners' thoughts? Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I may have a few notes on this one if I may. So, looking at this area, just to give some general thoughts from an economic development perspective, I know this valley has a huge need for industrial and I think the reason that staff -- the consultant and the committee originally looked at this area, just to give some perspective, is, one, because there is a rail line that runs through it and a lot of the industrial companies who are looking to locate want to be near rail and the other reasoning is if you were to redevelop that property as something else, typically it's not as good to put housing right next to rail lines, because it can be noisy, it can be unsafe, you don't want kids running through rail lines and getting injured or you don't want accidents there. So, from a general planning perspective it's usually good if you can put industrial next to rail lines, because it's a better use next to it. That being said, I certainly see that there is a really established neighborhood here and I love protecting some of those spaces that aren't likely to redevelop. A couple of their economic development perspective things -- I know Meridian is growing really quickly, but a lot of the job base of Meridian in the past has been retail and service based and we are starting to see more of those other kind of higher level jobs where we are getting higher wages in. Ten Mile is a huge driver for that. We have got Blue Cross. We have got Scentsy. We have got some of those great career jobs that are coming into Meridian. Even though we still have 80 percent of the community that drives out to downtown Boise or another city for work, we want to make sure we can still have economic based jobs in our community and that's why having an industrial designation somewhere is important. Industrial also is not what people think anymore. When you hear the word industrial everyone thinks of smokestacks and that's not what they always look like. Most of them look much more like office buildings nowadays. They are very nice. They have got manicured landscapes. The city ordinances require that they have to have landscaping and they look -- they look nice. They look like commercial developments. They don't look like industrial. So, I just wanted to point that out to you. Where the highway is going to be running through McDermott at some point in the future Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 88 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 86 of 107 is the other reason that they have looked at this area. I think we may be a little premature when we are looking at putting it as industrial right now, because that highway connection to go down and actually connect to the freeway -- we are years out from that still happening. There is a lot of funding requirements that still have to happen before that even takes place. We do have a significant amount of industrial that we have planned for south of the rail line. That might be a better place to start that conversation. That does align really nicely with Nampa. So, the only thing I would point out is if we left it all lower -- low density residential there, the challenge would be that if anybody in that five acre lots decided I want to subdivide my five acre lots, because I'm low density and I can -- I can put five one acre lots here instead of five -- or one five acre lot, we risk that that area redevelops into more density than it already is if we put it as future use map for low density and I think that might be some of the concerns that came forward from the committee, too. If you put it as low density and somebody decides to redevelop, your -- you can create more of those one acre lots, which over time could be harder to become industrial if there is ever a need for it in the future. Perreault: So -- Holland: That being said, one more comment with that. I'm not saying I want all these properties to redevelop as industrial right away and I want to protect the rights and I want to make sure that they have the ability to have their nice estate lots and their farms and those kind of things, too, but if they decide to redevelop at some point in the future, if we leave it at low density that leaves it open for them to be able to break it down into half acre or one acre lots, which could be more challenging for long term planning. Perreault: It's my understanding that if Pine were to go directly west it would basically divide that low density section as currently -- what's currently in the adopted plan. Basically divide that section just to the south of where the current residences are. Is there any consideration of making the area south of where Pine -- I'm not saying Pine is coming in, I'm just saying just as like a way to show the separation -- to make that area industrial there, then, it's just north of the tracks, it's -- there we go. Awesome. You already had that ready for me? Mind reader. So, this is -- this is what I was thinking of a possible change to that. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I -- I think that would be a good compromise for right now. I like the future -- thank you for thinking ahead, Caleb. Perreault: Now, I realized that that does not probably excite the landowners that are on that southern side of El Gato. However, Lisa's right, a lot of the industrial buildings that are put in now are very nicely done. They look -- they look like office buildings. They are not creating a lot of environmental hazards and that actually might be a good buffer for the residential against a more heavy use on the rail line. So, full disclosure, my backyard Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 89 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 87 of 107 backs up to the rail -- to the rail line and -- and I myself have concerns about what happens if that rail line gets heavier uses and what that's going to do to my property value and this might actually protect the property values of these homeowners more so to have the industrial there than to potentially have a different use that would be a heavier use with the -- with the rail line. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel I agree. I mean my thought originally was to just tap the brakes on this one, just because that highway coming through and all that is so far off. But I do agree that we want to protect some of that area and maybe that's where the very low comes in to protect and to keep that from being subdivided any further. But I do like the illustration that's on the screen at this time. Perreault: So, I agree. I -- I have struggled with whether this is the right timing to -- to change what is in the adopted plan for this area. I think we are at least as far out as the next comprehensive plan before anything happens with -- with the entire section that's currently showing as low density residential. I -- I don't even know that we are going to have another conversation about this until probably the next comp plan change a decade or so away. So, I'm not opposed either to just leaving it -- leaving the industrial below the rail line, because I don't think that we are going to get there. And, then, I agree that it -- it could be a bit premature. However, I do like the idea of that compromise as well. Just -- I completely sympathize with property owners that are concerned about selling their properties, because there is a use designated on these plans that could -- that could devalue their properties. I mean that is a concern. I understand that. Even if that -- if not -- if their current property is not at risk of changing the properties around them, at risk of changing or it being designated as -- as a very different use than what's currently there, it can affect the property values for sure. The same with -- the same with Rustler. I mean having that mixed use neighborhood could potentially change the values now and that situation I think actually will probably improve the value, because the services will be closer to their home. But in this situation -- or, you know, are we being premature in considering industrial on the north side of the rail line. How much do we think it will affect their value. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I still think the alternative map that staff put up would be a good compromise for now and I think we -- if a development comes forward at some point in the future we would work to make sure that there were berms and landscaping buffers and make sure that we -- we did a good transition there, because there is -- there is ways to do that. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 90 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 88 of 107 Perreault: So, we have been talking about this transition concept here tonight. We have the advantage of sitting through all of these and -- but many of you probably haven't, so when an app -- an application comes before us we very carefully look at the transition piece of it and we very carefully look at how many -- you know, if there is five properties backing up against one property, we take that heavily into consideration when we are making the decisions or recommendations to City Council. So, just know that -- that, you know, any application that comes before us we are going to be having further public testimony, further conversation, further investigation into whatever that use is, so -- any other thoughts? Olsen: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Olsen. Olsen: I believe that's a good compromise the way we have got it presented here. Perreault: So, if Lisa and Rhonda, if you would maybe give us a little more insight. So, staff had said that -- that there were a variety of reasons to recommend that area be industrial. One of them, of course, being -- giving industrial another representative location in Meridian. Were there any other ideas that went into that? McCarvel: Madam Chair? I think it's -- it's purely based on that highway in the future and being next to the rail. Perreault: Okay. McCarvel: That -- that once that highway does come down that that's going to change the feel of what's around there and like we have discussed, that is probably the next comp plan's real issue, but I think we need to also kind of prepare and maybe mark that. I like this compromise on here, that, hey, there is something else probably going to go on here. Don't -- don't plan your lots right up to that rail, because that area is going to change in the next 20 years. Perreault: So, Brian, since you conveniently already have this designed for us, do you have any idea what the -- what the acreage is of that section north of the -- how large that space is? I mean is it going to -- is the actual amount of acreage conducive to putting industrial in there and access as well? McClure: Madam Chair, I don't -- well, so you say convenient. This was actually staff's recommendation to the steering committee, so we just brought it up again. It was, obviously, not taken -- Perreault: Could you speak more into the microphone. I'm sorry. McClure: Madam -- do I need to repeat that? Madam Chair, so this was actually -- it wasn't convenient, per se. This was actually staff's recommendation to the steering Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 91 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 89 of 107 committee. They just didn't have the -- they didn't share that feeling overall. In terms of the actual acreage, I don't recall that off the top of my head. I can give you a similar example, though. So, if you are on Franklin east of Eagle Road where the -- the trampoline park is and some of the other ongoing kind of industrial development -- development is going on, it's a similar lot up there and kind of area. So, it definitely could support some sort of rail if they wanted to or they could not take it similar to the one on Franklin. Perreault: Okay. Great. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I think when this was originally submitted to the comp plan committee for consideration we didn't have the same context of all the neighborhood comments tonight -- Perreault: Sure. Holland: -- and so when we first looked at it, putting low density next to industrial, we had some concerns and so that's why we had suggested doing all of it as industrial, so that there wouldn't be a conflict. But now that we have heard the residents' testimonies and we know that those are substantial lots and that we could create some good transition between those, especially with where Pine would run through, I think I would feel a lot more comfortable with this concept now. Hood: Madam Chair, I just want to -- just some quick math there. But that's roughly 70 -- 72 acres or so on the revised. So, what you see there for industrial -- the largest parcel there kind of -- we are under the general industrial is roughly 35 acres. So, roughly half of that area. There is about four to four and a half acres -- parcels that are to the east of that and we have got six of those. So, in roughly 70, 75 acres. Perreault: Okay. So, just to put this out there. If any of the individuals that are still here with concerns regarding this, if on any of these recommendations that we make to City Council there are still concerns, please, feel free to send in e-mails and to go to the City Council hearing and testify there as well. We are not going to open it back up for public testimony this evening, but there is still an opportunity to comment on the recommendations that we are making to City Council with specifics. So, please, feel free to do that. Okay? Okay. Should we continue on discussing each of these specific areas and then -- all right. So, why don't we go ahead and tackle the Magic -- Magic Bridge next. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 92 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 90 of 107 McCarvel: This is one we struggled with a long time in the steering committee. So much so that we kind of said it just needs more work is kind of where we left it and that's where I think staff has come up with their recommendation. Because we acknowledge that while those are large lots in there that have been there for a long time, it is -- it's also very encroached by everything around it. You have got Eagle on the other side and there is no thorough way -- I mean the way Woodbridge was done, the way everything just -- the way it's landlocked in there, it was a real struggle. My -- my feeling tonight is -- you know, because this is not changing what anybody should do or is going to be done to anybody's land, but I think for future use I do like the staff's recommendation just because it gives I think a more representative of probably what's encroaching on them anyway and that -- that stop light on Locust Grove just is begging to be the entrance to something more than a dead end and I -- I hate to say -- you know, because I do like seeing the low -- I'm all for low density. I love big lots. I just think in the future that this would probably -- this area would lend itself to something of a better use considering what's totally surrounded it. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Just one second. Commissioner McCarvel, in that regard there was a gentleman that testified that said, you know, if you're going to make that mixed use, why not just make it mixed use to all the way up and include those lots on -- to the north. What are your thoughts on that? Why were those sectioned out -- well, you may not know why the staff recommended that. Can the staff share with us why -- McCarvel: I'm thinking -- it's probably just because it's closer to the interstate and, you know, just more -- Perreault: That's too far north to really have a mixed use. McCarvel: Yeah. It doesn't need to be that far. Yeah. Perreault: Because of the type of use that it is. McCarvel: Yeah. I think, you know, in general a lot of that over closer to Eagle is just begging for, you know, some traffic to come through to that stoplight on Locust Grove and what's developing there and it doesn't mean this is going to happen tomorrow, it's -- when -- you know, ten, 20 years from now and people want to sell their property that that's what it should be, it shouldn't be continued to possibly subdivide into more -- another Woodbridge even, that there should be some -- something else there. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: In answer the question that you just asked, too, I think part of the reason they weren't considering that north section was a lot of the reason that this area came up in Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 93 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 91 of 107 the first place there is a lot of traffic that flows through what's existing commercial there through the Magic View and Woodbridge Subdivisions and they were trying to figure out a way that if this area was to redevelop and be more usable at some point in the future, that perhaps that southern area could help with the cut through traffic and that was part of the reason they were considering that area in the first place. The section up on the north, the way it's configured, could be hard to redevelop as well and, again, if this area ever does redevelop it would take the coordination of all of those landowners wanting to see a change. No one's going to force them to annex. No one's going to force them to change their use. It would have to be that there was a proposal in place that the -- those landowners would be willing to participate in. Perreault: So, was there consideration made that just to the west off of Locust Grove that that's -- all of that area with ICOM and the school, there is some additional building going on with an application for another section of the school, was that taken into account as well? I mean is that part of the reason why the Magic Bridge area was considered to begin with? Holland: Madam Chair, I -- I think that part of the reason is because you have got ICOM on the Locust Grove side and you have got the major hospital system on Eagle Road. They wanted to create that connectivity between the medical uses and that was where some of that conversation came from. I -- unless -- if you got any other comments, Caleb or Brian, feel free. Silence. McClure: Madam Chair, I -- there is -- there is a lot of reasons there. I think at the end of the day it was -- if you are going to solve the service issue and the homeowners aren't going to do it themselves, what's -- what would it -- what would it take for redevelop to do it and to Lisa's point just now, they can -- they can capitalize on those things occurring there. Yeah. Does that help at all? I don't think there is a specific idea or concept, other than there is a lot of stuff that could occur here and mixed use would be conducive to a lot of different types of things. McCarvel: Yeah. I think it just -- if there is consensus, you know, and people want to redevelop that land there, that it shouldn't continue to be just more residential with no through space, that that was an opportunity to connect some of what's already on both sides of it and being butted up against the freeway and everything, it was just -- it needs something else if it's going to be redeveloped. If it's not, then, it stays what it is. This isn't changing anything that's already in existence or saying they have to sell, it's just in the future, if there is redevelopment, that it probably shouldn't stay residential. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland; One more comment and, then, I will stop talking about this one for now. I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 94 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 92 of 107 Perreault: That's what we are here for. Holland: I sat on the committee, so I like to try and give as much perspective as I can from what -- what conversations happened there. But I appreciate staff and consultant's recommendation, because there was a lot of different concept plans that we looked at for this Magic Bridge area and I would echo Commissioner McCarvel's comments that we got to a point where we just said this area needs more work and that's what we are going to recommend when it comes forward. So, I think this allows it to have more work in the future, because it says mixed use neighborhoods. So, if somebody is going to develop that they are going to have to put together a concept plan that gets approved by Council and Planning and Zoning Commission. So, it leaves it open -- Perreault: Or has a high amount of residential. Holland: Correct. So, there -- there could still be ways to work with those landowners if they don't want to redevelop in -- in creating a thoughtful strategic plan if that ever decides to move forward at some point in the future five, ten, 15, 20, 30 years from now. So, I'm in agreement with the staff and consultant recommendation, rather than what was put forward. Perreault: So, just to clarify for our audience, if that area were to be developed it doesn't all have to be done in that section that's shown on there. So, let's say that somebody were to come in and develop half of that mixed use neighborhood area, they are going to be able to buffer any nonresidential uses with a lot of residential uses, because that's the nature of mixed use neighborhood. So, there is still an opportunity for there to be additional residential as a buffer between what's existing and what could be a nonresidential use. McCarvel: And Madam Chair? I think -- or I -- I feel differently about this one, that we -- that something should be acknowledged on it for what's surrounding it immediately versus the El Gato, which -- the changes that are coming to that one are 20 years from now. The changes to this one are already surrounding it. It's just -- nothing needs to change on it now, but we need to prepare for the changes that are already there. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Seal: I would like to echo the same sentiment on that. It's -- I mean it's unfortunate that, essentially, growth is -- is consuming that area at the rate that it is, but it is going to consume that area. So, nobody has to sell or move out or anything, but we need to make a decision that's going to serve, you know, the city's best interest long term and I think what they have proposed in this is going to help serve the city as well as it can long term and I agree that the mixed use is going to -- it's going to help -- it's going to help the city with having somebody come in and develop a plan that's going to -- that's going to work in there. Somebody is really going to have to get creative in order to make things work in Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 95 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 93 of 107 that area, because it does need work. There is a lot of -- a lot of things going on in that area. I mean you got a lot of houses, you have commercial, you have got office, you got one acre lots, you have got Locust Grove and an overpass. So, there is just a lot of things that need to be done in order to develop a good plan for that area. So, I think that the mixed use designation is a -- is a good designation for it and I like what the staff recommended here. Perreault: Great. That went faster than I suspected. Okay. So, let's -- do we have anymore comments to make -- the Eagle and Overland area that's in the staff report didn't come with any -- any mapping, but is there anything else that any of the Commissioners would like to comment on that -- on that area? And, then, we will move on to The Fields. Holland: Madam Chair, I don't think there is any concerns with the -- the Eagle and Overland area, especially since some of the residents wanted to see that change. It just puts it as mixed use regional, which gives it more flexibility and, again, it doesn't force anybody to redevelop their lots, it just gives them the flexibility that if they choose to do so they can participate in whatever's happening next door to them. It's kind of a funny spot to be low density when it's surrounded by mixed use regional and other things, so -- Perreault: Right. Holland: Right by the freeway. Perreault: Okay. Let's move on to The Fields. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Well, we didn't hear much of any testimony on this, so I almost feel like some of the other -- it's a little easier when we have an idea of what the neighbors and the residents are concerned about than when we have an area where we don't have much testimony. McCarvel: There is just not many neighbors up there yet. Holland: Madam Chair, I would -- I would say when you look at the opportunities in Meridian and where there is a chance to have significant planning, this is an area we had the most conversation about over probably any area. So, even though we don't have a lot of public testimony tonight there was a lot of conversation around how this area should develop. I know there has been a lot of concepts for The Fields area over the years, different proposals that have been considered back years ago. This is an area I think could use a little bit more look in the future still and I'm not sure how to designate that. I think out of the concepts that we looked at this was a good compromise of the different things that everybody was talking about, but I would still love to see a little bit more of a deeper look on this area, because it's -- it's still a little far out for where services are, even though we have got a high school that was approved that's going to be under construction there that will impact the growth and it will start going there, but I know it's -- if you look at Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 96 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 94 of 107 that service impact tool that they are working on we may not have the same serviceability for all of this area yet. So, it's not likely to develop immediately and I think that was one of the comments made by staff, too, is this area is not a huge priority for them on how fast it's going to move forward, but I would recommend that Council spend a little more time deliberating on this area potentially. Perreault: So, was this change significantly -- well, I guess it's not hugely so, but I'm surprised at how much medium density I'm seeing in this area. Is it because you have got the state highway to the north and, then, Highway 16 and, then, Star Road that's already fairly heavily traveled, is that -- was that the idea behind having the higher density residential? McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: Yeah, trying to keep some -- quite a bit of density in that area so that people didn't feel like they have to cross any of these major things that you are going to have your own little mixed use neighborhood right in the middle and we want to have enough density there to support it, but not make them feel like, you know, they have got to run across, because the way that highway is going to come down and you get Chinden -- exactly to your point, that it's going to be kind of this little squared off area that they kind of want to be able to support themselves in that little mixed use. Perreault: Any thoughts on the change to low density here -- right here in the middle and why that is being recommended to have a lower density use? Is that already a developed area? Holland: Madam Chair, I think there is some -- there were some significant investment lots that were sitting there that the committee recognized and so they wanted to figure out a way to protect it. We had some heartburn about putting that mixed use community center across from that -- Perreault: Yes. Holland: -- and the high density, because I don't know that that was the best transition and so there was a lot of back and forth on that area, which is why I think perhaps it could still use a deeper dive from the consultant and/or staff at some point in the future. It's a tough area to plan. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: As staff alluded to, it's going to take a lift station up there, it's going to take significant time and effort and money to even get this going. So, it's -- kind of want to give Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 97 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 95 of 107 it a glance of what it is going to be, because stuff is coming up with that high school right there, so you kind of want to give it something, but there is only so much development that can even be there until they get that lift station done, so this -- it's a ways out. Perreault: Okay. So, no recommended changes to that area at this time? Shall we move on to the southern rim? Your mics are so clear. Holland: Madam Chair, just to note that we -- we talked earlier about leaving room for staff to evaluate low density subdivisions that should be reflected in the future use map already, so just acknowledging that that was one of Susan's requests of us that they would have the ability to work with staff on identifying some of those low density parcels still. A couple of things looking through what -- what Susan had asked us on behalf of the Southern Rim Coalition that I wanted to make sure we covered. I'm not sure if it was Susan or somebody else, but there was someone that addressed that they wanted to see language in the comp plan to address transitions and I would just make a comment that that's really something that has to take place at the city code level, not the comp plan level. So, while we hear that and acknowledge it, I know staff has heard that, they are very diligent about transitions and buffers and those are things we evaluate on a case- by-case basis as well. So, I just wanted to make that comment, but -- Perreault: However, that being said, if there is a community concern about the current code regarding transitions, we are definitely open to -- you know, if -- if a member of the community wants to -- or the Southern Rim Coalition wants to present an application that suggests code changes to those transitions, they are more than welcome to do so. We are happy to hear those applications. Holland: Madam Chair, a few more comments. They also asked about creating a specific district for the southern rim with a specific design standard. I think it gets tricky when you do that for specific parts of town, because it puts the requirements on city staff to maintain that and that's probably something that makes more sense as an HOA kind of thing if you want to put specific design standards on. I'm not sure exactly how they could even accomplish that. So, I don't know if that's something we want to touch tonight -- Perreault: Because right now residential -- single family residential doesn't -- isn't required to go through design review. Holland: Right. I think that that would be something where maybe you look at specific design standards for the city as a whole if you want to take that on and maybe create some classifications, but I don't know that that's something that really affects the comp plan process tonight. So, I think that might be a later conversation. That would be my recommendation is that's not something we touch tonight. The other recommendation we had was to make -- to change the recommended minimum standards of open space. Again, I don't think that's something we can touch as far as the comp plan, I think that's one of those priority level items that we have already identified. Open space is a priority and that staff and Council are aware of that and are working on that diligently and putting that in the top priorities that they want to consider. So, I think we have made our Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 98 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 96 of 107 comments that -- that we acknowledge that as well. But, otherwise, I think making the note that we want staff to be able to work with them to identify which of those stay low density on the map helps accomplish what they were asking. Perreault: This is such a large geographic area that I'm having trouble as I'm looking at this -- I almost wish I could look at individual quadrants; right? Because -- so, up in the northwest area it says high density residential, but those -- that lettering is over the low density residential area. So, I'm struggling with actually understanding some of what the changes are. Am I the only one? Seal: Madam Chair, the -- I mean looking at it, some of the changes are very subtle on this map. Perreault: Yes. Seal: I mean like you said, if you broke it down into something that could be more recognizable or in a larger -- or a more magnified view of it, it might make parts of that easier. That said I don't think there was any heartburn necessarily over any of the changes that were happening in here, more -- more or less just basically -- you know, like has already been mentioned, I mean the open space requirements, you know, I mean there is -- people want to put a lot of priority around that and, then, trying to wrap something in here as far as making this its own district with its own rules, that one I'm very reluctant to see the city dip its toes into just, because it's -- to me it seems like a bit of an overreach for us to start down that -- that path. I like the idea behind it as far as being able to brand, you know, a location specifically and make it more marketable, but at the same time I think that's something that should be -- should fall upon the people that are in that area. If subdivisions want to participate in that they can participate in that. You may not get a hundred percent participation, however, you're probably going to get enough that they can do that themselves without any kind of government oversight. Perreault: The staff report says that the most notable changes are either cleanup of the comp plan to reflect that which is built or entitled or adjustments to the rim, which is geographic. A couple of changes -- or notable changes are to the Simplot property on Amity and Meridian Road and some lands around Mary McPherson Elementary School. Parcels in this area may benefit from next steps with policy work, which is what we are discussing. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: We had a lot of conversations about this area as well and there is a lot of very passionate residents in this area and we appreciate all of their -- their insights and there was a good representation on the committee and a lot of good conversation. So, most of the changes that we saw here were relatively minor and just clean up changes. So, I think the main request that they had was that they could keep working on how do you Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 99 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 97 of 107 make sure they protect some of those larger lot sizes with the low density designations, which is what we have talked about. Perreault: Similar to what we talked about. Correct. Okay. Okay. So, now that we have addressed those, are there any other elements of the -- of the staff report that we should discuss -- Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: -- of the Comprehensive Plan? Holland: There were two other requests made by a developer wanting to change designations on the southwest corner of Meridian and Victory to commercial and also the northeast corner of Locust Grove and McMillan to commercial. I don't know if we want to talk about that one next. Perreault: Yeah. Absolutely. That was part of the reason I had mentioned my concerns about changing the comp plan to -- to reflect a specific future use for a couple of reasons. One, if that developer decides not to go through with that use and sells that property to somebody else that maybe limits or changes that -- that possibility. However, that being said, I am in agreement with the -- the gentleman who testified that the area off Locust Grove and -- and McMillan is too small of an area to have as a mixed use designation. So, I'm not unopposed to considering changing that to commercial, because if you look at the -- if -- I think there is -- he actually submitted some written testimony that said that there is so much easement space and -- there is so many different easements that move through there that it actually takes what's -- the property that's left and brings it down to like below two acres, so -- however, that being said, it's also that applicant's option to request a comprehensive map amendment -- a FLUM map amendment with their application, so -- Holland: Madam Chair. One question for staff. Were these two requests something that was submitted as part of the steering committee review of those parcels that we looked at? And I am sorry if I can't remember what the outcome was, if it was there, or did they just miss getting it in to some of those requests. Perreault: So, the -- the actual public document that was sent in was sent in on October 8th and it's in the public comment folder and I think that they probably missed the -- Hood: Madam Chair, if I can clarify. We have been talking to them and that was the testimony. So, we certainly talked to them before the 8th. Last week or whenever the 8th was. That was recently. So, it is something we have been talking with them about. If we can maybe give -- I will give you a little bit more perspective. I honestly don't remember spending a whole lot of time in the steering committee if we talked about it, but the one -- since you're at Locust Grove we will talk about that one first. So, there is the aerial there. I'm going to show you the future land use map here real quick and I can make it -- make it bigger if we need to. Let me at least make it a little bigger. But some Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 100 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 98 of 107 of the -- the designation also is looked at in conjunction with the other mixed use neighborhood that's kitty corner to it. So, to expect three uses on this side -- no, I mean it is smaller, but we would look at the mixed use designation across both of these properties and I don't know if you have driven this area recently, but there is a multi-tenant commercial building going in here, too. We talked with them -- on this one we think we can get where they need to be, essentially, by doing -- through a development proposal and their development agreement modification, rather than a comp plan map change. Not necessarily opposed to it, but we think that's maybe a better path forward to make sure that there is still some neighborhood serving commercial there and it doesn't become, you know, a four story box or something that just doesn't fit in well with the neighborhood. So, again, not -- I'm not totally opposed to it, but those are the conversations, that's kind of where we left it with them was we think we can get you there if we just amend your development agreement, you come through with a proposal under MU-N and you can still do commercial there. We aren't necessarily going to pound our fists for high density residential or that residential component on your property, realizing it isn't overly large. Perreault: Caleb, With that being said, then, what was their response -- they, obviously, still thought it appropriate to -- to send in a letter and testify. Were they not satisfied with -- Hood: That's the conclusion I would draw. In our meeting -- and I think Brian was there. I thought we were -- they were satisfied with that up, but, obviously, yeah, they sent a subsequent letter and had that request before you today, so -- Perreault: Okay. Hood: Yeah, I'm not going to put words in their mouths, because, again, you have a letter and -- and they wouldn't say, okay, we will pursue it that way, but -- but I think they understood that there is a potential, another path forward on this property anyways to kind of get them where they -- Perreault: Okay. Hood: -- would like to go with development of that. Perreault: How about the property -- the other property on Victory and Meridian Road? Hood: Yeah. And, again, we have talked with them over the last several months about that. At the end of the day I think for -- for staff's perspective, again, we see a lot of the potential they are talking about. It -- highest and best, if you want to say that, probably isn't medium density residential on this intersection, because you have some pretty intense land uses on the other side. So, they make some really good points about why medium density may not be an appropriate fit here. I think from staff's perspective some of the concern with that is giving a designation without seeing a development application that really showed that -- and another letter has some exhibits and talks about how roads Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 101 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 99 of 107 could be connected and some of those types of things, but that's not binding on anything. If that had a concurrent application -- and this is kind of the wastewater treatment. There is not too many areas where I would say let's put a pin in it and let's change the map again in the next year or two, I think we are going to heavily scrutinize any map amendments, right, because we have -- we are going through this process. But this is one where if they came in with -- with a map amendment concurrent with the development application, our concern really is giving -- you know, if we change it to commercial, access to the state highway I think is our biggest concern and -- and if it's commercial it's, essentially, got to have access to the state highway and we would like to address that or have that conversation with the development application and entitlement of the property, instead of through a comp plan change where it effectively grants a right to the state highway system. So, that's where -- again, I'm not -- I'm not here pounding my fist saying, oh, this is the worst idea ever if you were to take their request up, but those -- that's where staff's at anyways is we didn't quite have that comfort level to -- like some of these other ones, to make a recommendation say, yeah, let's do this. But, again, there is a lot of good points to their request. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: Question for Caleb while he is chatting here. Topographically is there any way to straighten out that part of Victory load -- Victory Road with the canal and everything that's there? McClure: Madam Chair, Commissioner McCarvel, we have asked ACHD that question and they have told us they have no intention of doing that. McCarvel: I mean if somebody wanted to develop -- I mean is it even -- I guess with enough dirt moving anything is possible, but -- Hood: My smart aleck response was going to be throw enough money at something and you can -- McCarvel: Yeah. Hood: -- make anything happen, but it's cost prohibitive. McCarvel: Yeah. Perreault: So, staff doesn't -- doesn't expect a challenge for -- if an application were to come in to go from medium density to commercial significant change, they don't anticipate any issues for the applicant in that regard? I know you don't know the future, but -- Hood: Madam Chair, I mean that is tough, again, because we don't have that development application and that's what's so tough about going from one land use to Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 102 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 100 of 107 another change, I don't know how those neighbors are going to react. I don't -- I don't know how it's going to transition. Nothing wrong -- we have seen some concept plans, but I can't say I don't foresee any issues with that. But generally speaking, yeah, I think staff could support a map change here with the right project and the right -- you know, if it works still within the neighborhood, yeah, I could see us supporting it for sure. Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Is that enough deliberation about those sections? Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I would just say we -- we don't include that in our motion and leave it to City Council if they want to chase it. Perreault: Yes. McCarvel: Madam Chair, I think what I'm hearing is leave well enough alone on this map and we can address that one individually as it comes with a development agreement. Perreault: Are there any other future land use map discussions that we want to have, since that was -- all of our testimony this evening. I don't think we had a conversation about the text. Okay. All right. Is there anything -- so, where are we at? How is everybody doing? Is there anything else in the text or anything else in the staff report that we want to discuss? Are we far enough along that we are ready for a motion? Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I'm pausing to see if there is any other head nodding or comments that want to be made first or I can attempt to throw out a motion, but -- Perreault: You are our best motion maker. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Seal: I will -- I will just go back to the Rustler real quick. I just -- I still have a little heartburn on not calling it what it is. That said, I think we might do ourselves a service if we take a look at the medium density that's right next to it and maybe think about moving that into a low density, just to better organize that area, so that there is not medium density right up against what would be rural low density and just looking at transitions in the way that things are supposed to flow. I know work would be done in order to mitigate that. However, I just -- that one just doesn't make sense to me. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 103 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 101 of 107 Perreault: Doesn't it seem like it would make more sense to -- to have that low density rectangular section at the corner of Linder and Victory a higher use and so I wonder why -- is that because there are -- that's already a developed area? Seal: I don't -- Perreault: That southwest corner of Victory and Linder Road. Holland: Madam Chair. I think you can see the parcel lines on there. So, there is a lot of bigger lot sizes that are already there and there are some homes existing, same with to the north where all the green is and to the east of it. Perreault: It's faint, so I was trying to make -- Holland: It is faint. I would say another challenge, too -- and I would agree that this area does need a deeper dive at some point, not just this specific neighborhood, but southwest Meridian I think over time will need a deeper look. I don't know that that area is going to develop super quickly with where infrastructure is and with those neighboring lots that are there, but, yeah, I mean you can see there is -- there is a lot of homes that are built out in that area. If in the future a Linder overpass ends up happening over the highway, I think that will drastically change this area as well. Seal: I agree. Perreault: You're not concerned that by the time we have another comp plan process that -- that the transportation won't have changed significantly with the Ten Mile interchange and -- I mean I really do think that's going to affect this before we are having this conversation again -- McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: -- in a decade or so. McCarvel: Living out there -- and I drive that road -- I drive Ten Mile and Victory and it has been a mess lately, because those roads have been all tore up, the sewer lines have gone in. They are there and development is coming before we know it and I guess that was my point earlier in having the ultra low density just to mark what's already in existence that probably won't change, because I think you have got some low density out there that may be farm property with an old farmhouse and acreage that will probably change and, then, you have got some property out there that's marked low density that are very lovely large home -- estate homes that are not going to change and I think it's important to kind of just mark on the map what's already there, so that neighboring cities coming in -- so that developers coming in can identify, okay, this is an old farmhouse and going to be low density and this is -- this is ultra low estate homes that is not going to change. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 104 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 102 of 107 Perreault: So, if that medium density piece -- but you're not recommending that we make a change to that medium density piece? McCarvel: Well, I think it would be hard to draw -- I just think the developer -- whatever developer would come in and think that they can do medium density right up to that border should know that -- you know, obviously, they are going to look at the land, but I mean it should be obvious that, hey, you have got some work to do here in transitioning in, you know, making that in effect in whatever would go in there low density next to it and the -- you know, it could be medium density overall, but that those lots up next what's -- Perreault: Yes. McCarvel: -- estate homes -- just to make it obvious. And I say that just not only this property, but other properties, including the El Gato, stuff that is closer to other cities, so that they don't come in and say, well, you know, Meridian has this low density and this is what can be there, so it's one to three lots, so we can put five to eight up next to, when, in reality, it's ultra low. Seal: Madam Chair? Just in looking -- I mean I -- instead of trying to -- essentially, instead of trying to give it a rural or an ultra low density designation, I think it would just be easier to take the medium density residential away from what's next to it and make it all low density residential in that area, because I mean -- I think what I'm hearing is that's the perfect place -- I mean it's the perfect place, it's the perfect view, a lot of people are going to -- if it expands that's probably the kind of things that are going to expand out there and if we are going to have more people that want an acre or more, that's a perfect place to do it. So, why don't we just say that's a perfect place to do it. Perreault: It sounds like those lots are significant in size. Seal: Yes. Five to ten acres. Perreault: Five to ten acres. So, even -- even at medium -- even with the smallest unit in medium density backing up against those it's still going to feel dense. Seal: Right. Perreault: However, if -- if we recommend a change to be low density in that entire section, what does that do to the mixed use neighborhood? I don't know that it was going to -- that mixed use neighborhood will not be supported by that low density. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: That -- that's why I'm saying this entire piece is a struggle. Seal: Correct. And I think the mixed use is going to be probably more served from the fact that it's right next to the Ten Mile interchange more than anything. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 105 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 103 of 107 Perreault: But the intention of the mixed use neighborhood is for the neighbors just in those areas to use. It's not really intended to be a place that -- that people are coming to from -- from outside those quadrants. I mean not that people can't, I'm just saying like that's the intention of it. Seal: Right. Perreault: And -- and it is mostly resident -- residential. It is 70 percent residential and -- or at least that's the intention. So, it's -- it's not that it's all nonresidential use. Seal: And that -- that's -- I mean that's -- Perreault: Maybe that's where our density is is in the mixed use neighborhood. Seal: I think the mixed use neighborhood will -- will help itself. I mean that said, people aren't going to come from the medium density through the low density that's already there. I mean that's -- there is nothing that's ever -- I -- if it were my property nothing would ever open up to allow people to come through the medium -- from the medium density through the property over to the mixed use. So, people are going to come out and around in order to get to it. So, again, I don't think it's going to serve those people very well, especially, you know, where it's at. I mean if they want other things they are going to go to Meridian Road or they are going to -- you know, come over on Victory and around. They don't necessarily have to go right there on Ten Mile to get to things. So, I don't know, I mean it would be nice if that medium density served that area and vice-versa, but at the same time I think with what's out there -- and, again, I mean trying to keep something out there, some kind of marker out there that says, yes, we still have a place for something that is more rural, something that's an acre above, there is a place -- there is a place for that and it really really fits into here, where if somebody wants to come in and buy a piece of property or develop it that way, they still have an opportunity to do so. I mean I can see somebody expanding on what's already there, just because of where it's at and the views that it provides. I mean it's -- unless we go with something that's really really tall out in that Ten Mile corridor, you are going to have an unobstructed view of the mountains in perpetuity. So, it's a -- it's a great place to have a -- you know, a large piece of property out there and the fact that it is right off the Ten Mile interchange, I mean you got a piece of the country you can get to right off the freeway. There is -- Perreault: Well, again, we are trying to talk about what is future -- Seal: Uh-huh. Perreault: -- future future. Seal: And I think that future future that could serve -- it serves a purpose. I mean there is, obviously, a demand for it and if we can get more people that are coming in that don't necessarily have to move all the way out into the Eagle foothills and, you know, Hidden Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 106 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 104 of 107 Springs or something like that, they can come in here and they can be five minutes off the freeway. Perreault: Do you feel like that is truly representing that part of the comp plan that suggests that we keep those types of properties? Okay. Seal: Exactly. That's -- that's what I was trying to -- that's what I was trying to say, only it's a quarter to midnight. Thank you. McCarvel: And, Madam Chair, I mean Kuna has already come up just -- I mean I think that mixed use neighborhood is going to be -- if you're worried about density, they are already coming up with medium right up to -- Perreault: Right up to that -- McCarvel: -- south lip of that. Perreault: Yes. Seal: Correct. McCarvel: So, it would be nice to protect what is out there. Holland: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Holland. Holland: I may be the unpopular voice on this one, but I -- I think when you have got a major arterial road like Ten Mile, it's going to drive development at some point and so I see concerns with making all of that area low density, because I think it's -- it's going to be tough when traffic is going to keep going on that road and development is going to want to naturally be on the road that has visibility. I don't know that I feel confident enough to make a recommendation to Council tonight of what this land use should or shouldn't be, but I think I would feel comfortable telling Council that we think that they need to take a closer look at the southwest Meridian area, transitions between land uses, and come up with some alternative scenarios that would work better for the long term interest of Meridian, because if you do look at what's coming up from -- from Kuna, I would echo there is a lot of medium density housing and mixed use that will be coming up that way and -- McCarvel: And that's why I said -- like to reflect on the map what is actually there, so that other cities are aware of what's already in existence. Seal: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner Seal. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 107 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 105 of 107 Seal: I -- I agree with what Commissioner Holland is saying. However, at the same time this -- this -- my fear is kind of what we have talked about with -- with other communities where if we leave it open -- and I mean if we leave this medium density residential open and somebody decides that they are going to in short order develop it, who are we now to tell them that they can't, because that is the use -- the landowner goes into an agreement and you have a developer and now we are looking at a medium density residential right next to this -- you know, right next to low -- what we have now said we are going to do a low density residential, now we are kind of in our own mess. I would almost rather see that flip and have somebody come in and try and do it the other way. I mean it almost makes it impossible for them to go to medium density, because -- I mean generally speaking if somebody wants to go up in density I'm not a big fan. If they want to go down, I'm a big fan. Perreault: Well, the timing of this is all very interesting considering that that's been medium density residential for -- since 2002. And -- or at least since 2010, whenever the change was made and now -- you know, now we are having a conversation about an actual potential project and -- and suggesting that it not -- Seal: Well -- and partially because -- I mean I had to drive out to Kuna -- I haven't -- I hadn't driven out to Kuna for probably six years and I drove out -- I drove out Ten Mile Road, because I live at the other end of it and I -- it was unrecognizable to me. I literally pulled over, because I thought I was in the wrong place and I have driven that road thousands of times back and forth, because that was the main road that I used to use to get to my home in Kuna, so the development is there. It's -- it's coming in faster than -- that area to me is just going to be -- it's going to surprise everybody. It surprised me how fast it's developing from Kuna all the way up and through and now at the Ten Mile overchange in there and completed, it's just going to get faster and faster. Perreault: So, with the -- Lisa probably would know this. With the -- the property boundary changes between Meridian and Kuna, does -- the Kuna boundary runs along Amity Road on that specific piece? Holland: Correct. It comes up and touches certain parts of it. McCarvel: Touches it one spot I think. Perreault: Okay. So, if we were to call this all low density, we really would be setting that on the very edge of Meridian. McCarvel: There you go. Seal: Yes. So -- McCarvel: It just -- see where it comes up on the right there, just -- it touches it right there. That's it. The rest of the city line is -- Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 108 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 106 of 107 Perreault: Oh. McCarvel: -- halfway between -- or -- Perreault: Okay. McCarvel: -- a fourth of the way south from Amity down to Lake Hazel. Perreault: Okay. That's helpful. All right. That's what I thought. Holland: Madam Chair, I think I would still feel more comfortable letting Council take a look at this area and not recommending a specific change, but just leaving it that Council would take a closer look at southwest Meridian area, transitions between land uses, and consider alternate -- potentially consider alternate use layouts. Perreault: Okay. McCarvel: Madam Chair? I would add, though, at minimum going with the staff recommendation map. Perreault: Yes. Holland: Yes. McCarvel: At minimum. Perreault: Okay. It sounds like we are ready for a motion. Holland: Okay. One second. I got to write that down. Perreault: You guys are troopers. Thanks for hanging in there with us tonight. Holland: All right. I don't know if they have a cheat sheet for us of a motion, but I'm going to wing it. After consideration all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to recommend approval to City Council of the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian as proposed in the staff report from the hearing date of October 17th, 2019, application number H-2019-0101 with the following modifications: One, that Council would take into consideration the creation or evaluation of an ultra low density designation. Two, that there -- we would leave room for staff to evaluate low density subdivisions that should be reflected on the future use map accordingly. Three, that we would change the future use map for the Black Cat-Cherry area with the El Gato Lane to the alternative concept that was presented by staff in the slide shown to the Planning and Zoning Commission that shifts the industrial to the area between Pine and the rail line. Four, that Council would take a closer look at the southwest Meridian area and transitions between land uses and potentially consider alternative land use scenarios and layouts and at a minimum would Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 7, 2019 – Page 109 of 282 Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission October 17, 2019 Page 107 of 107 go with the staff recommended of low density on Rustler and that we would also follow staff recommendations on the other areas as presented. Seal: Second. Perreault: It's been moved and seconded to approve -- to recommend approval to City Council with modifications stated. All those in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. TWO ABSENT. McCarvel: Madam Chair? Perreault: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: I move we adjourn. Holland: Second. Seal: Second. McCarvel: Before it's Friday. Perreault: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn the public hearing for October 17th, 2019. All those in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. TWO ABSENT. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:54 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) APPROVED /l Adrienhe bjft�—erly,�e uty Clerk for Chris J6- son, City Clerk DATEIAPPROVEb