2019-09-24 Regular MinutesMeridian City Council September 24, 2019.
A Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:08 p.m., Tuesday,
September 24, 2019, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Tammy de Weerd, Joe Borton, Luke Cavener, Genesis Milam, Ty
Palmer, Anne Little Roberts and Treg Bernt.
Also Present: Chris Johnson, Bill Nary, Caleb Hood, Kevin Holmes, Warren Stewart,
Jeff Lavey, Jeff Brown, Joe Bongiorno.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X__ Anne Little Roberts X _ _Joe Borton
X__ Ty Palmer X__ Treg Bernt
__X___Genesis Milam __X___Lucas Cavener
__X__ Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: I will go ahead and start our regular City Council meeting. Thank you for the
additional time. We apologize for the late start. For the record it is Tuesday, September
24th. It's eight minutes after 6:00. We will start with roll call attendance, Mr. Clerk.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is the Pledge of Allegiance. If you will all rise and join us in the
pledge.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation by Larry Woodard of Ten Mile Christian
Church
De Weerd: Item 3 is our community invocation. We are excited to have Larry Woodard
here with Ten Mile Christian Church. If you will all join us in the community invocation or
take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection. Thank you , Larry, for being here.
Woodard: Well, it's my pleasure. I think it's good that we start out with prayer. I know
we are going to go through a change here in this -- this fall. I hope the practice
continues. So, let's pray. Our Dear Heavenly Father, I ask tonight that you continue to
give each of this Council wisdom and guidance as they continue leading t his city
forward in the next few years. Give them good health, rest, wisdom as they make
decisions. As we often say of groups like this council, they have got a lot on their
plates. We continue to be amazed at the growth of this valley. I was not surpr ised to
hear on television that most of the people that are moving here are from California.
Many are retired, but the number of new students at our schools this fall means there is
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a lot of young families also. I pray that we can get on top of our enrollment problems
with new schools and expanded facilities in the near future. We continue to thank you
for our police, our firemen and our emergency personnel who help make our city safe
and worry free. Our road system is being taxed to the maximum and we ask that our
driving patterns keep down the number of accidents each week. Tonight I prayed for
the rank and file of the city employees who help keep our city running smoothly. They
often are overlooked, but the clerks, the planners and the regular employees are so
essential to our growth and wellbeing. So, tonight we thank you, God, for all the
blessings that you give us, in Jesus' name, amen.
Item 4: Adoption of Agenda
De Weerd: Thank you for joining. And Betty, too. Okay. Item 4 is adoption of the
agenda.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: We have -- we just finished up our work session and we ran a little long, so one
of the items in the work session we anticipated covering then we didn't cover, so for that
reason we are going to add it to the end as a new Item 10 to this agenda. It will be an
Executive Session under State Code 74-206(1)(d) as in dog. And with that amendment
to the agenda I move it be adopted.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Sorry. Mr. Borton, I just wanted to clarify. We are doing (1)(c) and (1)(d) or
just (1)(d) as in David?
Borton: (1)(d) as in David.
Cavener: Thank you.
De Weerd: We lost the staff on (c).
Cavener: Okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to approve the agenda as amended.
All those in favor say aye. All ayes.
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MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Announcements
De Weerd: Under Item 5, Announcement s. We have a finer living series. This is for
our mature community, which means over 50. They keep lowering it so we feel better
about being called seniors. This finer living series kicks off the first of three with crisis
avoidance. You don't have to be a senior to come -- come to this. You can also come
and learn how to support your parents or grandparents. T his is on Friday, September
27th, from 10:00 to noon here at City Hall. We still have our main street market going
on through the end of the month. This Saturday from 9:00 to 12:00. That's all I had.
Any -- any further announcements?
Item 6: Future Meeting Topics - Public Forum (Up to 30 Minutes Maximum)
De Weerd: Okay. Item 6, Future Meeting Topics. Mr. Clerk.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there were no sign-ins to the topic.
Item 7: Action Items
A. Request to Relinquish Lands from Meridian Planning Area for
Property at 1370 W. Lake Hazel Rd.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Item 7 under Action Items. 7-A is an item for Council's
consideration that we will hear from Mr. Hood and Mr. Stewart.
Hood: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. On September 3rd, Carolyn
Vaught, a real estate agent representing the property owner at 1370 West Lake Hazel
Road, asked the Council to prepare a letter to the city of Kuna relinquishing subject
lands from our area of impact. It's my understanding that that owner is trying to sell the
property and is requesting that the land be, again, removed from Meridian's planning
area. The subject property is 19.5 acres , located near the northeast corner of Lake
Hazel and Linder. It's currently planned on -- in Meridian's -- on Meridian's future land
use map, part of our Comprehensive Plan for rural estate residential. That's this lighter
green color that you see on the map. What you don't see on this map is -- the
subdivisions show up, the lot and blocks in subdivisions are there. There are three
parcels that make up this 40 acre block here and I will give a little bit more on that in a
second. But, again, it's medium density -- or, excuse me, rural estate residential right
now on -- on the city's future land use map. As part of developing the new
Comprehensive Plan -- so, I'm going to -- I'm going to switch to a new map and this map
is not adopted yet. The staff has worked pretty diligently with the city of Kuna to define
that planning boundary -- area of city impact boundary that you see before you. Again,
this isn't official yet, but it is something that we have been talking with Kuna or working
with them on where services should be provided within each of the jurisdictions and
that's what you see on this map and the subject property is just off the intersection of
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Lake Hazel and Linder. So, it's 19 -- 19 and a half acres right here. Again, we spent
quite a bit of time negotiating that new line and the infrastructure that goes along with it.
I do appreciate that Kuna has sent the applicant our direction . That this gentleman's
agreement that the Mayor referred to during the work session before -- the process that
we have agreed to with Kuna before they process anything or accept any applications,
come and petition the City of Meridian to relinquish property. So, I do appreciate that.
There are other parcels, though, again, that are impacted here with this case. There is
a five acre parcel that is right on the corner of the intersection, another 19 and a half
acre parcel, that's just located to the north -- excuse me -- a 15 acre parcel that's
located in the north, to make up about 40 that you see here. The designation has also
changed -- or potentially changing with the adoption in the new future land use map to
medium high density residential. For these reasons -- for the planning reasons that
have gone into service -- providing planning for services in this area, planning staff is
not favorable of this request and thinks that we should let this plan play out a little bit
before we modify the line any further. Mr. Stewart does have some things to add to that.
Stewart: Yeah. So, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, maybe to give you a little
bit of insight on some -- from the utility standpoint, sewer and water. Our current master
plan does show service to this area via the extension of sewer trunk lines that will
extend from the -- the facilities that we just built -- we just made a large commitment and
built the sewer line down Meridian Road and across that road just south of Amity there.
That line will eventually be extended a good portion of the way towards this property
and this property will -- or this area, this 40 acres area will, then, have a lift station that
will pump to that. So, we do already have infrastructure, which we have built, it's in
place, which contemplated service to this area and it was sized to accommodate that.
So, there have been existing investments that have been made. Caleb already touched
on this, but we -- we have worked for years -- actually since the time I have been here --
ten years that I have been here to negotiate a boundary with the city of Kuna that we
could both sort of agree to adhere to and this is significant, because we have to make
investments in this infrastructure. If we change that after we have already started to
build some of this infrastructure, we essentially waste that investment or it's utilized
investment that we could have used that money elsewhere. So, that is kind of in play
here. We have already made some of those investments and if we -- if we don't adhere
to some of these boundaries, then, there is a potential that we have, e ssentially, spent
money that we didn't need to. And, then, finally, I think it's important to keep in mind that
if we allow this particular piece of property to be annexed into Kuna, there are these two
parcels that Caleb alluded to that are immediately to the west. It would, essentially,
block us from the ability to serve those. So, if we let this one go from a utility
perspective, we, essentially, let the whole 40 go, because we wouldn't be able to
effectively get sewer and water through this property over to serve that isolated area.
So, with that in mind we are sort of in the same boat as Caleb. It seems premature to --
to let this particular property out of the City of Meridian, but I wanted to make you aware
of those -- those issues. And I will stand for questions.
De Weerd: Thank. Council, you have the request in front of you and -- and the
responses from staff. Any questions for the requestor or our staff members?
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Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I know this isn't a public hearing, but if the requester has any information that
they felt pertinent to share I'm open to hear that.
De Weerd: Typically if you need information that's outside the letter it's not something
that we have been advised to do, but --
Nary: Madam Mayor, I think she's already presented the information in the letter,
because there is a question or some other clarification. That's certainly within your
discretion.
De Weerd: Okay. That is why I asked if Council had any additional information you
needed.
Cavener: I guess, Madam Mayor, I would -- I would ask them -- the requester if they
had any feedback or comments related to the information that was shared.
De Weerd: Okay. I can invite you up to the podium if you will, please, tell us your name
and address.
Vaught: Carolyn Vaught and I live here in Meridian. 820 3rd Street.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Vaught: So, I have Alice Eshelman, the owner of the property, here with me tonight.
When I first came to Meridian to talk about the zoning and what it could be sold to, I was
advised to go to Kuna, because I was told this is going to be annexed into Kuna
eventually. So, I went to Kuna to talk to them and they said I had to get a letter from
Meridian. In the meantime I have been talking to the Wilsons to the west of th em. So, I
had never talked to Caleb I don't think, but usually it's Kevin I have been talking to, but
the Wilsons are also interested in annexing and I know that Harrietts and Tidwells and
Jarvises, all the way around this property, have annexed into Kuna . So, that's how we
got started down this path and we are just trying to sell Mrs. Eshelman's property, so
she can retire, because she is a barber and she supports her husband in a nursing
home on her barber income, because we haven't been able to sell th is property,
because we don't have the zoning cleared up. So, that's how this all started and I'm just
looking for some direction from the City of Meridian now that I was told to go to Kuna
and I did, I was told to come back, so somebody point me in the right direction and I will
go there.
Bernt: Madam Mayor? I have one question. You mentioned that you had a question
about the zoning. Are you -- I didn't realize we were talking about the zoning.
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Vaughn: It was currently zoned RUT. So, when I went to list the property I asked, you
know, what is the future plan with this and when I went to the city they showed me
where it was eventually going to be annexed into Kuna and that there were no utilities
here. So, this is a big challenge is the utilities would have to come from Kuna, because
if it comes from Meridian it's quite a distance, so it really hurts the value of this property
for her to sell it this way. So, we were advised to go to Kuna, because the utilities are
literally across the street. So, we are just trying to figure it out. To be honest with you,
she wants to get this property sold and it made the most sense that it was annexed, but
I understand what I'm hearing about the utilities . I get that. But I also know the Wilsons
are interested in selling to the west. They are the five acre parcel. Mrs. Eshelman
actually sold off all of this land. She's lived there her whole life and when they had
trouble during the farming crisis, she ended up selling some land, so she sold to Citadel
and the property that the Wilsons own. So, she owned that entire 40 acre parcel at one
point. So, we have been in communication now. Citadel -- I have talked to them once,
but they haven't gotten back with me, but the Wilsons are interested in annexing and so
-- and, then, I was told by Kuna that that property was designated as commercial
because of the high density that is coming in in that area with the high school and about
2,500 homes. There is about 2,500 home sites that have been approved in Kuna that
are actually north of this property. So, we are just trying to figure out what's the best
use -- highest and best use. So, that's -- that's my story.
De Weerd: Thank you. Well, we are sorry that you're being sent here and there and --
and all over. We have been going through this Comprehensive Plan update process
and -- and as Mr. Stewart mentioned, we have invested in sewering the areas that we
have in our plan and have already furnished dollars to --
Vaughn: Sure.
De Weerd: -- do so and those are dollars that would be lost to our existing ratepayers if
they can't be recouped, so -- and -- and our staff takes that responsibility very serious.
Council, questions? Comments? Thank you for providing us more information.
Vaughn: Thank you.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I do have a question for staff. More to the -- how did this boundary get drawn
the way that it is and how this parcel -- it seems like it -- if you put a straight line there it
would make a lot more sense, so it almost doesn't make sense looking at it like this. I'm
not sure how that 40 acres got included into our area of impact. So, our area of impact
has shrunk from where it was before, but there are some really weird cutouts and so if
you can give me some history on that?
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Hood: Madam Mayor, Council Woman Milam, part of that has to do with what Kuna has
already annexed. So, a good chunk of the -- the part that we are relinquishing has
already been annexed into this Kuna's corporate boundaries. Some of that has to do
with the serviceability and the lift station and keeping a presence on this intersection as
well. So, there are a couple of different things in play there. But, again, the jut out
there, a little bit has to do with the land north of this 40 anyway, some of that already
going to Kuna and the serviceability of that to Meridian in the future not being very
feasible with what they have already annexed in the general vicinity. I will just point out
a couple of other things that are related. You know, again, if you write a letter I would
say write the letter to let the whole 40 go, because we can't service the five on the
corner or the other 15 that's north of it and don't be surprised when they come in and
they come in and they come in and they come in and they come in. So, basically,
everybody below here is on that same lift station and it really is a timing issue. You can
develop this in Kuna sooner than you could in Meridian, but services are today right
about here in Meridian as far as -- as far as sewer goes. That's the big Meridian Road
project that we did and it -- yeah. And right about in this location. But that is still quite a
distance to get to this subject property. So, again, if you take action today to relinquish
it, it probably makes sense to do all of this and, then, again, don't be surprised if you
start to see more and more, because, yeah, you do have a lot of those -- the units that
were -- that were being talked about are built -- being built right here and the new high
school just south of there. So, this area certainly is developing in Kuna.
De Weerd: And I guess the next question would be what -- what is the cost, because it
will not be reimbursed -- that was figured into the cost model and that's --
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: So, say we say, no, we are not going to relinquish this property, but Kuna
annexes it anyway. Is that -- do we just -- are we just back to where we were six years
ago and, then, it's just a war on property?
De Weerd: I think staff has worked really hard. We have -- as Warren mentioned, we
have been at the table for ten years trying to come to some agreement. It's similar to
the application that came up in front of Council that was continued last week and Mr.
Borton's statement -- this application is dead to me if the city of Boise doesn't want to
relinquish it from their area of impact. I think those are the values of having those
agreements between cities and -- and to have an understanding if there is a cost
implication what that means, because we have to make a commitment to serve these
areas when we adopted our comprehensive -- or our area of impact.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
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Palmer: Madam Mayor. Warren, I apologize if you did say this, but is -- is the -- the
cost investment the only factor here or is this one of those situations where because of
what we had planned and built for that there would be issues with it not actually using
the capacity that it was built for or would it just be over capacity?
De Weerd: Well, it's cost and flow models I --
Stewart: Yeah. So, we have existing trunk sewer lines that were sized to accommodate
all the property within a particular sewer shed. That property includes -- in this particular
sewer shed that includes this particular parcel or this 40. So, if you take that out,
essentially, you will -- there will be a situation where some of those pipes will have been
oversized or they will be oversized for what they really n eeded, so we will have spent
money in pipes that are bigger than they needed to be in order to serve this parcel and
it also affects the hydraulics. We keep those pipe sizes the size that they are , so the
hydraulics work well. We can clean those sewer lines and everything else and you do
run the risk of having a situation where hydraulically they don't function as efficiently and
effectively as they would have if they had had the flow that they were intended to have if
we had built it according to the plan, so maybe that answers your question. I hope.
Palmer: Madam Mayor? Yeah, perfectly answered my question. That -- that's the --
the -- as much of a stickler as I am on -- on finances and expenses over the last four
years, there is a certain level of -- of I guess willingness for me to -- to be able to
understand that circumstances like this may happen, which that makes sense. What
pulled me out of being willing to make that decision is when we start getting to where
there is potential function issues because of doing that, because, then, it's not just an
up-front expense, it's a -- this is something we are going to have to deal with forever and
that pulls me out of being willing to -- to relinquish it.
De Weerd: Any other questions? Okay. Council, I will ask for direction regarding this
request.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Madam Mayor, the -- on a micro level what Carolyn is describing is -- is
certainly sympathetic with the long-term planning process and infrastructure that's been
described, it seems to outweigh the -- the individual consideration as outweighed by the
metrics our staff has described in the long-term investment and functional --
functionality of the system. So, for those reasons to this request I move that we deny
the request to relinquish lands.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Okay. Mr. Clerk, will you
call roll.
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Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. Public Hearing for Victory Commons M DA (H-2019-0091) by
BVA Development, LLC. Located at 130 E. Victory Rd. and 3030
S. Meridian Rd.
1. Request: Modified Development Agreement for the purpose
of removing the subject property from DA Instrument #
106155843 and to be placed into a new, separate
development agreement
De Weerd: Item 7-B for public hearing H-2019-0091. This needs to be continued,
because we did not have full noticing of this public hearing. We did not do the mailings
and so the applicant has reposted and the clerk has noticed and renoticed this public
hearing and that's set for October 15th; right?
Borton: That is correct.
De Weerd: So, this is isn't even an item we can hear. So, I don't open this public
hearing, because it doesn't exist. Okay. So, I don't need any action to remove it from
the agenda. Okay. Thank you. If anyone is here for this particular item, Item 7 -B, our
apologies if you saw it on the city -- city's website, but it has not been noticed
appropriately, so we cannot hear it.
C. Public Hearing Continued from September 3, 2019 for Millbrae
Subdivision (H-2019-0066) by WHPacific, Located at 4888 and
4920 W. Cherry Ln.
1. Request: Annexation and Zoning of 8. 79 Acres of Land with
an R-8 Zoning District; and
2. Request: A Preliminary Plat Consisting of 41 Building Lots
and 5 Common Lots on 8.79 Acres of Land
De Weerd: So, Item 7-C is a public hearing continued from September 3rd on H-2019-
0066. I will open this public hearing with staff comments. And before, Kevin, you
provide your staff comments, is there anyone here new for the first time ? Okay. I will
just briefly discuss -- or give you an overview of our public hearing process. So , we
have staff present the application and their comments . We will, then, ask the applicant
to come forward for any additional comments they have up to 15 minutes. After their
presentation we open the public comment period. You have three minutes to provide
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your testimony and we do have a timer on the podium . When you come up I will ask
you your name and address and, then, ask for your remarks. At the end of the public
comment, the applicant will come forward with any summary remarks and answer any
questions that came up during public testimony. The n Council has an opportunity to ask
staff, applicant or any of those provided testimony questions. I will note that there is
extensive public records that are kept on each of our public hearings that incorporate
Planning and Zoning Commission minutes, staff report, agency comments, any citizen
letters or comments as well. So, with that said I will turn this over to Kevin.
Holmes: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of Council. As you mentioned, this is the
Milbrae Subdivision annexation and preliminary plat application before you continued
from September 3rd due to a tie vote, so it's good to see you here tonight, Madam
Mayor. Just a quick recap. This site consists of 8.79 acres of land, currently zoned
RUT, located at the northwest corner of West Cherry Lane and North Black Cat Road.
The Comprehensive Plan future land use map designation is currently light density
residential. The applicant is requesting a preliminary plat of 41 single family residential
building lots and five building lots for the development of detached homes. A gross
density of 4.7 dwelling units per acre. This is slightly higher than the three dwelling
units per acre standard associated with the low density FLUM designation this property
currently has. The applicant is requesting a step up in density to a medium dense
residential designation. The Comprehensive Plan does allow for step ups in density
and the applicant's requests meet the required criteria . In addition, through the ongoing
Comprehensive Plan update, this property is designated to being changed to a medium
dense residential designation, as you can see here with the three maps in front of you.
Since the proposed density does fit with the surrounding neighborhood densities and
the applicant's request is in line with this potential future change, staff is comfortable
with the applicant's step up request. At the direction of the Commission the applicant
has worked with the neighbor to the west to relocate the stub street shown going to their
property, so that explains the two differences here you see with these two plat maps.
And in response to conditions listed in the staff report, the applicant has provided a
revised open space calculation showing 11.9 percent open space. Amenities in the
subdivision include a children's play structure in the middle area there. Multi -use
pathways along both Black Cat and Cherry Lane and a pinic shelter and seating areas
throughout the development. The applicant has submitted conceptual elevations shown
here. The Commission recommended approval. Just to recap some of the key issues
that were brought up in the September 3rd Council meeting, there was some concern
raised over the requested step up in density and there was concern over the location of
the access point on North Black Cat Road. There is one back here. And its proximity to
the major intersection of Cherry and Black Cat and, then, there is also some discussion
about a potential left-hand turn lane on Black Cat Road. Council did direct the applicant
to meet with ACHD to see if there was any way to resolve these issues. The applicant
has met with ACHD and the correspondence has been added to the public record, so,
hopefully, you have had a chance to review that. I'm sure they will also be explaining
how that discussion went. There is a couple outstanding issues for Council. The first is
a -- the requested step up in the future land use map density and the second is just
some clean-up items due to having to relocate that stub street -- that basically we need
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to match up the plat with the landscape plan. So, typical housekeeping items there.
And with that staff will stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Thank you, Kevin. Council, any questions? Okay. Would the applicant like
to comment. Good evening. If you will, please, state your name and address for the
record.
Suggs: Good evening, Council and Mayor. Thanks for being here tonight. My name is
Jane Suggs. WH Pacific. 2141 West Airport Way and I'm here representing Milbrae
Subdivision. I have got a few slides to show. Kevin did a really good job of giving an
overview and I really appreciate that. So, I'm not really going to start off at the very
beginning, since most of you were here. I will just remind everyone that this is,
basically, an in-fill development. One of the Council Members was concerned about
moving too far beyond our city limits, but you will see in the green that that's the city
limits that currently exists right now. Here we go. This is, basically, showing the site.
This is just a reminder, too, that you have annexed and rezoned the property to the
west, which is the Burlingame Subdivision. If I can show you this right here. That's the
Burlingame that was annexed with a step up to R-8. Also the Meridian Missionary
Church that was rezoned south of us to R-8 and above us are two churches with L-O
zoning designations. As Kevin mentioned, the soon to be approved Comprehensive
Plan shows the area as medium density and so we are very respectfully requesting that
you rezone this to R-8 when you annex this property. Again, almost like an in-fill
property. You will recall and -- from the previous hearing that Mr. McEwen asked us to
revise the stub street. Kevin just showed you that. We were happy to meet with Mr.
McEwen or talk to him through e-mail and make that change, so that it stubs to a
location that he says is most appropriate for the future use of his property. And at the
last Council meeting Mr. McEwen raised some concerns with traffic and Council asked
us to meet -- and we did meet with -- pretty immediately, right the next week we met
with the ACHD representatives. We talked about the turn lane on Black Cat. The
location of White Birch Street, which is the entry street off a Black Cat. There was some
concern that that location required a policy adjustment. Typically entry level s on local
streets are about 600 feet from a major intersection like Black Cat and Cherry Lane.
However, we don't have 600 feet of frontage along Black Cat. So, the policy of ACHD
along this is a staff level. We didn't have to go to the Commission, they were able to
give us the location that we have chosen for our preliminary plat and, of course, there
was some concern also about the level of service of Black Cat and Cherry Lane and the
use of the developer's cooperative, which has been used for some larger projects in the
area and I hope you have read those communications that we have had with ACHD. I
think it's very clear that there is not a need for a turn lane. We actually had a traffic
engineer do an analysis for a turn lane, both a left turn and a right turn lane in that area.
That analysis shows that there is not a need for a turn lane. The access location of
White Birch off of Black Cat is appropriate and was approved by city -- by ACHD. There
is not a need for intersection improvements at Black Cat and Cherry Lane , as the level
of service, even with the future development around there, will be fine and ACHD
responded that the developer's cooperative is not really the appropriate vehicle for
doing any kind of improvements if there was a need for improvements. So , I think we
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have addressed the things that the City Council had asked us to do, which is to go back
to ACHD and ask those questions that were on everyone's mind at the last hearing.
Again, we do respectfully request that you approve our subdivision, our annexation, and
our rezone to R-8 and I can stand for further questions if there are more questions
about our meeting with ACHD or some of the design of our project. The one thing I did
want to mention is in our open space calculation, which seems to be just over the ten
percent, we did not include the lot that's along the north boundary. That is a lot for an
irrigation pond and you have some requirements for irrigation ponds plans to be in lots
that are much larger, so we took that out of our calculation of open space. So, it will be
open space. There will be a fence around it as requested by the P&Z and we will have
a little bench out front, so if you want to enjoy that landscape area that will be not part of
the pond. So, that's why there is a little more open space than actually the numbers tell
you. Again, I will stand for any questions you might have.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Council, any questions? Thank you.
Suggs: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Clerk, any sign-ups for this public comment?
Johnson: Madam Mayor, there are. There are ten individuals signed in regarding this
topic. Three wish to testify. The complete list is available by clicking the sign -in
dashboard on your desktops and all names will be added to the record of the meeting .
The signed in is William McEwen.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you for joining us.
McEwen: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, City Council. My name is William
McEwen. I'm at 5120 West Cherry Lane. And I don't know why I took those glasses off,
because I can't see this. So, we understand that there will be no left turn lane provided
for the ingress and egress for the Milbrae -- Milbrae development entrance. I think this
is just unfortunate for everyone involved. I don't know how much it co sts to put 200 feet
of one lane of blacktop in, but I can't imagine it being more than 15,000 dollars and the
black top of this -- not putting it in there at this time I think is irresponsible and I think it's
reckless. My beliefs are backed up by the facts and statistics that I provided the city --
City Council previously and they are in your minutes. You have an option of voting any
way you want to on this project and that's why you're elected. I have a property to
protect and if you decide to approve this project as it stands, I will not open up the street
stub laid out by the Milbrae plan, as residents will use my property and drive through in
order to make up for the inadequacies so blatantly pointed out to you . At such time as
the ACHD sees fit to put in a left turn lane, which based on my conversations with
ACHD will be more than ten years from now, I will consider my options at that time.
Thank you very much for your time.
De Weerd: Thank you.
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Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Sir.
McEwen: Yes.
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Thank you, Mr. McEwen. I got a question for you. You mentioned that you're not
going to be opening up the stub street. Are you talking about with development or just
-- what were you -- what were you --
McEwen: With any kind of development on the property.
Bernt: So, I guess are -- are you concerned that people would be driving in your
property without it being developed? I guess I'm trying to understand --
McEwen: They can't. They will put in a stub. They won't be able to drive through. But
I'm not going to develop anything on my property and hooking into that subdivision
without a turn lane.
Bernt: No, I -- so, what would be your concern? Would people --
McEwen: I think that my concern is -- is that they won't be able to make a left turn lane
and they will use access through the other development that was -- that was approved
by Council last year. Drive through there. Or they will drive through my driveway, but --
because they can't make a left turn on --
Bernt: Do you honestly believe that?
McEwen: Yeah, I do, because --
Bernt: You think you -- I don't mean to interrupt. You honestly believe that people are
going to be driving on your property without it being developed?
McEwen: No. No. No. No. No. No. I didn't say that at all. What I said is if I develop
my property and hook up the streets, they will use those streets to get home, so that
they don't have to try and turn left into the subdivision. No, I'm not crazy. Just checking.
Bernt: I just sort of -- I just want to just clarify that that's what you were talking about,
because --
McEwen: Yeah. That --
Bernt: I thought -- I thought there was a hair bit of craziness there.
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McEwen: There you go. No, it's not there.
Bernt: Okay.
McEwen: Thank you, Council.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Johnson: Next is Bradley Law.
De Weerd: Good evening. Thank you for joining us. If you will, please, state your
name and address for the record.
Law: My name is Bradley Law. My address is 4888 West Cherry Lane here in
Meridian.
De Weerd: Can you move the microphone a little closer. Thank you.
Law: Okay. It's actually the property that's the closest northwest -- right on the corner.
A five acre parcel. Along with our neighbors. My primary concern in coming up here is
to give you guys a face with this project. This is not just a subdivision , it's not just
developers trying to do things, it's me, it's my disabled mother. It was my fiancé trying
to move on with our lives. My parents bought this property back 28 years ago . Our
neighbor has been there for over 30. We have watched the sprawl of Meridian literally
surround us. As Jane said, you have approved R-8s just south of us. You have
approved R-8 a few hundred feet west of us. Where is the consistency? I mean we
brought up concerns about the step up. It's already being shown to go that way in your
next Comprehensive Plan, yet we are still concerned about the step up. I don't get that.
We are looking for the best and highest use for our property and this appears to be,
really, our only option. The previous speaker has brought up a number of issues and
now it seems as if we -- we had Jane and everyone involved spend extra money to
change the stub road and he seems to be trying to throw it in our face of, oh, I'm not
going to use it now, even though you spent the time to do it, because he's not getting his
way. Again, the concerns that have been brought up -- there is no other options to do
with the property. The road can only go where it goes. That's what ACHD says. This
has been approved by the fire department. It 's been approved by -- you know, as far as
any safety concerns -- there is going to be a pathway along the outside edge of it with
the sidewalk. That's going to be much safer than it is currently. If anything that on a
safety concern, we are elevating the safety of the property from where it is currently
and, you know, we had farmland all the way around us when we moved there. Now we
have subdivisions on two sides, two churches behind us, a church on the other side. A
19 acre subdivision going in. We are just looking for the consistency. Let's keep
everything the same and just stop the dragging on. Our life is on hold. We are literally
paused without this decision being made here we don't know what our next step for our
life is and that's what we are trying to get through. So, I just want to -- at bare minimum
put a face to the project for you, so you can remember that. Thank you.
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De Weerd: Thank you.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, the final sign-in is April Peterson.
De Weerd: Good evening. If you will, please, state your name and address for the
record.
Peterson: My name is April Peterson. 1101 West River Street.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Peterson: Good evening, Mayor de Weerd and Council Members. It's a little
intimidating, all these eyeballs looking at me. Oh, gosh. Brad, one of the homeowners,
did a fantastic job of explaining to you not only the urgency, but the magnitude of the
situation for both him, his disabled mother, and also Kent and Nancy Bleak, who have
the other five acre parcel. So, the Law family has a five acre parcel. The Bleak family
has a five acre parcel. They border each other. About five acres it should say. And so
this development is about nine'ish acres. As it's been mentioned, you know, they really
are surrounded by medium and high density already on every single side , north, east,
south and west, and as we all know Meridian has grown faster than any of us expected,
you know, and so when, you know, the future comp plan, you know, isn't maybe up to
date, we all know why. You know, Meridian is such a great place to live. Everyone
wants to live here and so here you had, you know, two amazing residents that have
both been here for 30 years. Taxpayers. They moved into this area, like Brad said, to
enjoy the rural life and it's become a city around them and so my husband and I
represent them on the real estate side and we spend many hours trying to give them the
highest and best price and the highest and best use for their land , which actually is a
developer over putting our land on MLS. So, you know, they raised their families here,
you know, their kids are grown and gone now. Grandkids. And they are ready for the
next season of life and now they have an opportunity to have a very handsome price to
enjoy retirement. You know, both of them have already -- Mr. Bleak has already put
money down to build a home. It's already been built . It's in process in rural Nampa and
the Law family is already purchasing a property up in northern Idaho in another rural
area. So, they are trying to get out and the developer is saying, hey, everybody wants
to move to Meridian. You know, it's an amazing city. We could have 41 plus new
residents, taxpayers, enjoying the City of Meridian. There hasn't been any opposition.
You know, even Mr. McEwen, while I absolutely respect his concerns for safety and, you
know, my heart goes out to him only moving into the area three years ago and now this
big development going up next door, I would be a little upset, too, and concerned.
However, you know, progress -- Meridian is growing. So, to end -- I'm sorry, I'm going
over on time. Recently I was at a -- an event with you actually, Mayor and Mr. Simison,
and one of the number one questions that the residents of Meridian were asking Mr.
Simison is, number one, how do we get more roads and wider roads? And, number
two, how can we have more affordable housing in the City of Meridian. There isn't any.
De Weerd: Can you summarize?
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Peterson: Yes.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Peterson: So, in conclusion, not only do I believe this is the best use for these two long-
term residents of Meridian, but I also believe it's the best use for the new incoming
residents, you know, that -- we are greatly lacking. So, I just would ask respectfully that
you create a win-win for everyone, you know, both these two families, but also new
upcoming families that want to enjoy this amazing town.
De Weerd: Thank you. Those are those that signed up to testify. Is there anyone here
-- yes. Good evening.
LaFever: Good evening. My name is Denise LaFever. 6706 North Salvia Way,
Meridian, Idaho. Anyhow, I do have -- sorry. I do have some concerns about this. First
starting with the application where it was instructed that if planning to request a step up
in density do so ASAP. There has been talks about step ups, there is talks about raising
the bar in our community and this application comes in at 11.5 with a fence around an
open -- open area. So, you know, if they do want to come in just ask them to raise the
bar. As far as going back through -- well, we are going back through and we are talking
about the step up, the justification for it is really smaller lot -- smaller lot sizes, but they
have referenced in here Burlingame Subdivision. I believe that was already annexed as
Incline Village and it was annexed as an R-4. Once again, as she stated, across the
street is an R-4 subdivision, a church, a church and it was originally annexed for
Burlingame as an R-4, which they later rezoned. In here, in the application, when we go
back and look at the staff report, we have a school right now that has a capacity of 650.
We have enrolled students of 660. We haven't even counted the Burlingame into this
and already we are over capacity in the elementary school. Not to mention the road .
We are going to end up having a regional cost goes on -- on that that's using that road,
a hospital, and we are already bypassing Ten Mile to Black Cat because of how busy it
is. In addition to that, there is a reference in here of a Fuller Park, but there is a break in
the sidewalk on Black Cat to use the Ten Mile Creek Park. So, it's not really safe. But
the one that I object to in here in the staff report is the fact that we come back in here
and we reference a comprehensive plan that is being changed. There -- I sit on the
steering committee, as you guys know, and this has not been approved. As a matter of
fact, there are objections by residents that sit on that committee to the FLUM, as well as
some very vocal objections to the deterioration of open space , as well as the identity of
neighborhoods. So, respectfully, if you do move this forward, I respectfully ask that you
ask them to come and raise the bar and a tot lot and a fence around an open -- an
irrigation holding pond, a required sidewalk, and we where is the drainage at that's in
there. We just want them to up the game, to come back in and have neighborhoods
that will last into our future and this doesn't meet the need of affordable housing. This --
this is right in there at your expensive housing. We are not talking housing that's 250
that are our first time buyers can afford. So, I'm not opposed to it. I just really want you
to put some thought into it and if you do want to approve it, ask them to up their game
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and, you know what, a turning lane is not a bad idea given everything that has
happened. It's going to backup traffic to turn into that subdivision.
De Weerd: Thank you, Denise.
LaFever: So, that's it.
De Weerd: Any questions?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Denise, can you articulate an example of what would constitute stepping up the
game in a project like this? What specific direction would you give that would improve
and satisfy that concern?
LaFever: More open space. I really think you're -- you're really building these for
families. You have got your park that's down there that's not connected yet. One of the
issues that I have that I see when you're out driving around is there is a need for bigger
lot sizes, because people can't even put their trampolines in their backyards. You know
those big trampolines. I seen them kind of caddywonker, you know, and there is a
need. I -- I especially enjoy having my children play in my backyard . You know, I'm
concerned about that shrinking.
Borton: Madam Mayor? Is open space -- any other example, other than additional
open space that you think satisfies that concern?
LaFever: Well, the turning lane would be helpful, because you're going to backup
traffic. But one of the things -- one of the big concerns I have is making sure that we
don't continue to take away our own space and come in and meet the bare minimum.
You know, yes, it does have a tot lot in it. Smile. Yes. But, you know, we need to up
the game a little to make it livable for people.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: And on this it's showing a picnic shelter, too, and I don't remember seeing that in
the packet in the text, but it's showing on the drawing, so I guess I will ask the applicant
for more clarification, because that does add another amenity that's no t just a tot lot.
Picnic shelter, pathways, some green area where probably the drainage is, too, but -- I
hear you.
LaFever: I'm just really concerned that we have neighborhoods that will survive the test
of time and it's a place that you can add it, but when they come in and park you can't
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see where the driveways are in here. But some of the neighborhoods that we are
developing now you can't even have guests over and have them park in the street. If
you do have parking in the street and you're blessed enough to be able to park, you
can't -- if people are parked on the street it's really hard to navigate that street , you
know, and I'm really concerned about it, so --
Borton: Interesting.
De Weerd: Any further questions? Thank you. Any other testimony? Good evening.
Rogers: Good evening. Thank you, Madam Mayor, City Council. My name is Pamela.
I live in Boise at 3881 North 39th Street.
De Weerd: Pamela, what's your last name?
Rogers: Rogers. Excuse me. Rogers.
De Weerd: Rogers. Thank you.
Rogers: And I came to Boise in 2009. I have been in property management since I
came here and prior to that, even in Texas. Just a side note here. For me personally
driving two hours to work every day was not a big deal. It's what we do. And Eagle
Road now I think is just as bad. It's like I compare it to some of the places in Houston.
But the only thing I really would like to say is I know that the Treasure Valley -- and I
love Boise, Meridian. I came here to be with my daughter and her first grandchild after
my parents passed and it's grown exponentially just since 2009. I have read in
numerous publications that by 2040 the whole Treasure Valley is going to be about a
million people and what I have encountered in property management -- when I first
came here and I started with a smaller company, so it was a pioneer effort, which has
just been really fun to grow with them and, you know, we only had a handful of
properties, but back then I was pulling teeth to get tenants. Now I'm getting fifty to a
hundred phone calls, depending on even the time of the year, for every vacancy I have.
The supply and demand is overwhelming. We do not have enough housing or rentals
for people coming in. So, I am very much in favor of the high density proposal -- or
rezoning I should say and we -- it's my understanding from the developer, these are not
all high end homes. They could be first time home buyers. I may be wrong, but that
was my understanding. And we need a lot of that. We need more of that and I -- I just
see it every day. I'm at a loss -- I mean even now in the offseason I'm still getting
probably 20 calls a day. I'm so sorry I don't have anything. And also the -- you know,
the -- the rental prices have gone out the wazoo, too, so a lot of people are wanting to
buy instead of pay those high rents. So, I am personally acquainted with the -- excuse
me -- the Laws over there and the realtors. But I just wanted to speak on behalf of
property management, because I know we are all feeling this crunch time and thank
you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Yes, sir. Good evening.
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Blake: Good evening. My name is Kent Blake and I live at 4920 West Cherry Lane and
five acres of this proposed project belongs to me and I would just like to bring up some
key points that I have heard that seems to be an objection over the last two meetings
that I have sat through. First, just to kind of go back a little bit in history, it was just so
many years ago that I had the same five acre parcel before the City Council -- went
through Planning and Zoning and was all approved and it came to the City Council,
because at that time I wanted to make two lots out of my five acres and after we had
gone through all the process it was denied by the City Council at that time. So , we
waited a lot of years and now fast forward to the day, now it's just the opposite, a lot of
the objection is it's too dense and that. Well, my property does -- in the north side
connect to the Burlingame Subdivision that was just approved not long ago, which is the
higher density, and so I think from that standpoint if you look at -- it's perfect for that kind
of an arrangement. Other -- another point that has been brought up a lot is the safety of
the area and we really haven't stressed the fact of what this project means to the -- to
this as far as improving the safety. Currently there is about a hundred feet of sidewalk
that is -- are right by the lights on the corner, but once this project is done it will add
several hundred feet of sidewalk -- probably close to three football length fields of
sidewalks, plus the improvements to landscaping that goes along with that with the
sidewalks. So, I think it will add to the safety, not detract from it. Another point that has
been brought up that -- schools. Well, just this year the Compass Charter School
opened their new facility just a half mile away from my -- my house and in the near
future the Owyhee High School is going to be opened. The schools are coming to help
support this. The other thing is -- is all the utilities that are necessary for this project to
go forward are right on Black Cat. It's not going to take any taxpayer dollars to further
this project. It's ready to go. Impact fees will come in once it's developed. And the final
point I would like to just stress is that this is a small little development, 8.79 acres. In
my mind I can't think of something that would be a better fit to fill in this -- these two
parcels of land in Meridian. There are other things that can happen. It could be a big
field full of weeds and a lot of things could happen, but this really -- the way it's planned
I think the developer and the planner has put a lot of thought and effort into it and it will
really add to the character of the nature and fit in with the surrounding character of
what's already there. So, to me it's the right thing to happen here and I know those who
object -- I hope you just kind of reconsider it and look at the whole picture.
De Weerd: Thank you for your --
Blake: This really is worthwhile and I appreciate your time. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Any additional testimony? Okay.
Suggs: Thank you very much, Mayor and Council. Jane Suggs representing the
Milbrae Subdivision and this is really part of the process that I really like, because
everybody gets to comment and say something about a project and that's the really
great thing about our process. I don't have a whole lot to add, other than a few -- few
things that came up. Again, we talked about this property is pretty much surrounded by
development and the step up has been used in the past as recently as last November
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for the Burlingame Subdivision. Yes, it was originally a different subdivision, but it was
R-4 and, then, they came in and used the step up to rezone to R-8. A lot of talk about
the open space and I can appreciate that . The actual open space -- because there is
actual open space and, then, there is your coded usable or what you call the affected
open space I think. It's about an acre and a half out of that 8.79 acres is actual open
space. It's not designated for lots. But some of that, like buffers, are not already
included in that usable open space and the 11 and a half percent did not include the
small piece that's above. So, that's an additional open space. It's not part of the
calculation of usable open space. So, even though it will be landscaped and it will have
a bench along the street in front, we haven't actually calculated the -- the size of the
irrigation pond, but it could be very small and only the irrigation pond would be
surrounded by a fence, as requested by P&Z. So, we have quite a bit more open space
than what is shown on the 11 and a half percent. As far as housing, you will see that
the smaller houses are in the center. They are the ones that are adjacent to the open
space, and it's -- when you have a smaller home and a smaller lot, that's perfect for first
time homebuyers who may not need a yard. Also because there is a tot lot and picnic
facilities there. We actually have redesigned the stormwater management , so -- and
some of these it looks like you have dotted lines. We have actually talked to the
engineer and he's got the geo tech, so it looks like a stormwater management --
stormwater detention area will be infiltrated, so it would be underground. So, now we
can put more landscaping into these open spaces and there will be open spaces that
won't necessarily be depressed like you see and those are very nice spaces, because
they fill up with water occasionally. Not much here, but -- but now that won't necessarily
be the case, because we will be using underground infiltration for those spaces, which
is a good thing. As Mr. Blake said, the utilities are all right there. There will be no -- we
just talked about another project where you have to extend utilities. Utilities are right
there for extension right into the subdivision and I'm not the builder. We submitted built
on -- some examples from a couple of builders we think that we probably could have
some of these homes at less than 300,000. I know that doesn't sound like a first time
homebuyer, but to professional folks we hope to get to that and you know that's a
difficult thing right now. Just having housing at all in our bustling city is a great thing
and, you know, we are talking about adding several hundreds, if not thousands of
homes every year trying to do that to our valley to allow people to have some place to
live. So, any home that we build is a good thing for working with our housing crisis that
we are going through right now and probably will be for many years in the future. I
believe we satisfied all the concerns we had with ACHD as we were aske d to at the last
City Council meeting and, again, if you have questions about that I would be happy to
talk to you about that or respond to any other questions you might have about the
project. Again, very respectfully request that you approve the Milbrae Subdivision, the
annexation, the zone to R-8 and the subdivision as conditioned that we agree with all
the conditions. So, thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: So, was there a picnic shelter or is there not a picnic shelter?
Suggs: There is a picnic shelter.
Milam: Okay.
Suggs: We have a picnic shelter and a tot lot. We always like to have a place where
the kids can play and, then, the moms can sit underneath some sort of shelter in the
sun when they are out there, so it will be a nice place to have some sort of picnic ability
there.
Bernt: Don't forget about the dads. We like to play, too.
Suggs: Oh, yeah. Well, if you must.
De Weerd: Any other questions?
Bongiorno: Madam Mayor? Over here on the Fire Department side.
De Weerd: Joe.
Bongiorno: Jane, can you make sure that if this does get approved that 14 foot wide
asphalt needs to be 20 feet wide for the fire engine.
Suggs: Yes, it will be. And in our revised plat, but not shown on this landscape plan,
because one of the conditions is prior to the final pla t we submit a new landscape plan.
But on the new plat we do show it as a 20 foot and some landscaping is beyond that.
So, that's our emergency access down to Cherry Lane, because we can't have a full
access. It will also serve as a really nice connection. And, again, just less than a half a
mile down the street is the new park. So, that's some -- that will be a great way to get
people without having to get all the way around, they can get right to the park that way.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Jane, you have been doing this for a long time really well in this valley, so I
challenge you with a question. Maybe broader than this project, but this project
implicates it. Do you think that in the City of Meridian there is a maximum number of
new dwelling units or building permits? Talking residential. A maximum amount that
can be issued to maintain our existing levels of service. Is there some cap to that?
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Suggs: I'm probably not the right person to ask -- answer that question, but you have
got a sewer expert over there who is probably determined exactly what that is for the
future growth of Meridian. That's what your Comprehensive Plan --
Borton: Here is what I'm getting at. Because you -- I asked you because you have
been planning for a long time. If a community like Meridian, for example, tried to bring
on 20,000 new building permits within a year -- residential. Probably absurd, probably
more than -- than what we could handle to maintain levels of service. Does that seem
like a fair conclusion or do you know?
Suggs: Well --
Borton: Or have an opinion on it?
Suggs: That's such a loaded question. Level of service for our streets? Level of
service for our sewer? Level of service for our schools? Level of service for --
Borton: Yes.
Suggs: Yeah. You're not -- you don't have enough people in your city government to
give out 20,000 building permits in a year. I mean Kuna is out there doing a couple
thousand and they are -- yeah, they are growing faster, so -- I mean it's --
Borton: It's a tough question.
Suggs: I don't know how to answer your question , because it's so loaded. I'm trying to
figure out -- are you saying that is there an unlimited number of units that we will build in
Meridian?
Borton: Madam Mayor. Here is the challenge that --
Suggs: Okay.
Borton: And I don't know the answer to it either, but I believe there is a number and one
of the challenges when we review annexations is we look at it on a micro level and we
look at project specific or at least we are directed to try and do that by a lot of the input
that we get, which makes total sense and you might have been caught up in some of
this concern that on a micro level to this project specific to it it may meet the standards
and be appropriate, but some of our considerations on a larger scale is -- is there some
maximum absorption rate that our community needs to be aware of with this
tremendous growth in order to maintain level of service and that's a question probably
broader than your project by itself. But when we look and make policy considerations to
determine any annexation is in the best interest of the city, to bring this into the Meridian
family and provide all the services, each project standing alone has a very finite number
and a smaller impact; right? Forty-one units here. Relatively small compared to the
city. But we have probably over 10,000 platted approved parcels in our city -- none of
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that's your fault or concern necessarily, but some of the challenge that I think I might
have posed to you a few weeks ago might have been more focused on this is concern,
that I think there is some broader cap and none of us know what it is. So, when we talk
about step ups and the impact of step up, it's only 41 units now, it's smaller, it seems
like a really small impact, but at least for me what gives me some pause is the bigger
policy consideration in trying to step back from a project just by itself and trying to
articulate a bigger policy decision on a step up here, that might be problematic. It's
problematic because of this larger concern. And in fairness to an applicant like yourself ,
if I had that concern I think you're -- you're entitled to know that. So, I could articulate
here is why I find the step up to be a fatal flaw, because it doesn't satisfy these broader
concerns and I think that's a unique consideration in annexation, because it's that, you
know, consensual decision to sort of get married with the city. That's the reason that I
asked that question and I didn't expect there to be an answer.
Suggs: Well, good.
Borton: I wish you had one, because I don't.
Suggs: I guess part of the issue is -- and we wouldn't have brought this if we didn't work
with the staff, who indicated and -- that we are very close to going to Planning and
Zoning Commission with a new Comprehensive Plan revision and this land is shown as
medium density in the new Comprehensive Plan. So, the issue is we -- there will be no
step up once that plan is approved. So, we didn't think it was necessary to wait until
that happened. It's -- it's that way because -- and it's appropriate that way in this
particular -- on this particular site, maybe more so than the ones you have already used
step up on, because it's that hard corner. Larger lots are not necessarily appropriate at
a corner like this where you have two arterial. That's generally where you put your
density, not interior, but -- and not -- but you do it at the harder corners. We talked
about -- a little bit about that last time is that that's sort of the appropriate location in
planning where you put your density at these -- what are called hard corners. So, in
some places -- I think there is one -- let's see. So, I'm looking at this map, city limits
and zoning, and we are going for the purple zone and you will see all the purple zones.
So, obviously, in some of that area -- and I haven't checked everyone to see what the
comp plan said, but mostly a lot of your comp plan had a lower density and the lots of
these -- I mean we are showing purple there at these corners and especially at some of
these harder corners. So, that R-8 seems to be the appropriate thing. You're right, I
don't have an answer for you how many units should we approve in the next year, but I
do believe that this is the right project at the right time in the right location and there is
no reason not to. The utilities are there. It is -- it's ready. I mean the property is ready
for development there, so -- I mean it is surrounded by development and I don't know a
reason why you would not annex it in if you have got annexation land on -- to the west
of it and to the south of it and to the north of it and to the east of it. So, except for one
parcel who may or may not develop their proper ty. So, if you're surrounded it's an in-fill.
It's an enclave almost.
De Weerd: So, I have a question.
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Suggs: Sure.
De Weerd: It's not so -- it seems that we are really transitioning away from these
retainage lots. It just lacks imagination, Jane. To have a retainage lot with a fence
around it and many of the retainage lots we have seen are mosquito traps and I just --
that one baffles me.
Suggs: Okay. When you say retain -- this isn't stormwater retainage. All the
stormwater will be underground now. This is an irrigation as a requirement of the
irrigation district, where there is no irrigation, so we want pressurized irrigation, so we
have to build a pond on the property. So, that irrigation will have water in it during the
irrigation season.
De Weerd: And will it move?
Suggs: Will it move?
De Weerd: The water.
Suggs: The -- the level will change whenever you're irrigating and, then, it will fill back
up, so --
De Weerd: Do you have aeration or -- do you have the water moving, instead of just
staying stagnant? Even though it changes in elevation that doesn't --
Suggs: But it fills up -- I mean in the summer months when you're using it it will be filling
up daily. It will be moving daily. So, there will be water coming out of it for irrigation
and, then, they will be filling it up with -- from the irrigation. It's a requirement. There is
not a way to do those really underground. I think you're talking about retainage
meaning the stormwater and that's the stormwater stuff that sometimes, you know, the
lower the swales and they have rocks and things and sometimes the water just kind of
stands there for a while, so --
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Suggs: -- but this is -- this is like a pond. This will be more like an amenity pond and
the reason there is a fence around it is because the P&Z said they wanted a fence
around it. For safety we were going to do a four foot fence, so it keeps the kiddos out
and keeps -- you know, that kind of thing. But it's not going to be a tall, ugly like wire
fence or something. So, it's just a safety thing, because it's going to be more than
probably a foot or two deep. It might be five feet deep and water comes up and down,
so -- during the year -- and that's an irrigation pond versus the retainage ponds that
you're talking about. Those will be underground, so --
De Weerd: You don't have any kind of aeration component to it. Even with the
movement up and down it's still a nice mosquito --
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Suggs: Well, if you -- we can talk to the -- to the irrigation district and see if there is
something that we can do to make that happen. I don't -- I'm not a professional in this
design, but I can find out -- the irrigation district might allow us to do something like that.
I'm not sure if they will, because it's something we are doing for them -- for the irrigation.
But if you want to make a condition of approval that we talked to irrigation about doing
something to keep mosquitoes down from the pond, that's fine.
De Weerd: Any other questions from Council? Okay. Thank you.
Suggs: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any further information needed? If not, I would entertain a
motion to close the public hearing.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Move we close the public hearing on Item 7-C.
Milam: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All those in favor
say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Having heard an immense amount of information twice out of a very small --
less than nine acre development, I move that we approve H -2019-0066 and include all
the staff's recommendations in their staff report and require that if the irrigation district
allows for it and there is a means to properly aerate the pond to mitigate mosquitos, that
that be required to be built, should they allow it.
Milam: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second. Any discussion?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
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Cavener: I think we are back here, like deja vu all over again, because Council couldn't
come to an agreement, we didn't have a tiebreaker, and, you know, I think Council
Member Bernt had said, you know, like -- almost like another chance at this. You know,
go talk to ACHD to get another shot. My comments were pretty clear. This is pretty
minimal and I would have hoped the developer and their representative team had taken
a look at this project and said let's level this up and that didn't happen. So, you know, I
think our Council has always been really supportive of working with development to get
to the win. We have had to continue for further conversations to occur, because I don't
-- I don't take denials lightly. There isn't anything here that's changed and has moved
me to be supportive. I think it's a missed opportunity to have done something a little bit
better. I think Denise in her testimony talked about leveling up or kind of improving and
I think there is a host of things. I appreciate Council Member Borton asking the
question. I think there is a host of things that they could have done to make this a better
fit for our community. So, I'm not supportive of the motion. I won't be voting in favor.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: So, being that this is a -- Joe, the number is 2,873 that -- this is an in-fill piece of
property and I do appreciate level up and not being a minimalist and I don't really see
this as a minimalist and I think that with in-fills it is a little bit more difficult to be as
creative as you can with larger pieces and that -- I calculated the open space. The
actual open space -- and I don't even know if that includes the po nd -- is at 17 percent if
you include the unqualified. It has more amenities than it needs to have. So, it may not
be the most beautiful project in the world, but it's -- we are dealing with a little small little
piece of in-fill property and it wouldn't be even open to a step up if this was not already
going to be the FLUM level of service, so -- I don't see why not to approve it.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other discussion? Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, nay; Milam, yea; Cavener, nay; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
nay.
De Weerd: Okay. Well, since I did look at the -- the record I hung up on our -- our
policy, I know that there has been step ups, but not since we started into our
Comprehensive Plan update and we did say that we would not consider step ups. I
have been pretty firm in that. There is no guarantee that this will be designated what is
in the plan until it goes through. It would have been probably a different conversation if
this was two months later or three months later or after the beginning of the year with
the new Council with a new plan. But I think that the other Council Members who are
voting against it are trying to stay true to it. I also think that we do need entry level
housing, but I don't think we have to settle and there are some safety concerns in this
area. This is a small piece of land. I don't think it should share the burden of the entire
cost of a turning lane, but there are some safety aspects in this area that discussion
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needs to be had on turning lanes for getting turning movements out of the lane of traffic
and -- and providing a safer venue for it. So, I will be voting no. So, this motion fails.
MOTION FAILED: THREE AYES. THREE NAYS. MAYOR NAY.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I move we deny Item 7-C, application H-2019-0066.
De Weerd: I have a motion. Do I have a second? Okay. Well, I have no motion. I do
need action from the Council.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: So, the question I had posed to Jane, which -- which was meandering,
perhaps, or mooshy, I guess I could pose to all of Council, if they know it or maybe our
planning staff. Is there a -- is there a maximum number of dwelling units our city can
absorb on an annual basis to maintain our levels of service, whether that's streets,
schools, public safety, water, sewer. If there is what is it? I don't know what it is. I don't
know if anyone else knows. No, that's not the number of permits that have been
approved. The number of units a city can absorb X number of units on an annual basis.
It's not 20,000. Right? More than zero. But there is some -- there is some figure and
not all communities are -- are blessed or cursed with extraordinary annual growth and
there is one reason why everyone wants -- a lot of people want to move here is we do
have this phenomenal level of service in all departments. So, what happens, an
application like this gets stuck in the process and we seem to be stuck every five
months on something where it's that concern, at least for me, that -- that catches you.
Each project by itself is small. But year over year on a large -- it's four years down the
road and your levels of service have -- fire response time, police ability to interact in our
community, all of that slowly creeps. But here is my concern. I don't know what the
number is, but I would like a tool that would help articulate, based on some
assumptions, some absorption rates that the city can absorb X number of units on an
annual basis. I think that would be very helpful and very difficult to do. So, Madam
Mayor, as we go forward I'm changing my vote and I'm going to do -- I'm going to be --
I'm supportive of this project, because this concern doesn't necessarily need to -- to tie
up this particular project. But I want to have some tool that will help articulate -- and we
can utilize it going forward -- our community can roughly absorb X number of homes.
No, more than zero. Right? We can grow at a certain level. Residential. Commercial
square foot and industrial square foot. It's not unlimited. We can't absorb 20,000
houses. The demand is there and on an individual project basis there will be requests
to do so and I don't fault developers and landowners from trying to do so. The problem
is it's is 2026 and our police and fire response time and our -- our ability to plan new
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wells for water service all lags behind and we are all gone -- I'm on my soapbox just for
a titch. But we are all gone and you see communities get caught -- that's what
happened, it's back in 2019. So, here is my -- there is not an answer for it today and it's
not going to be easy, but I'm supportive of this project. Come January if -- if there is not
some tool that will help guide this on a macro level, so we can say here is why step ups
don't work on a big scale, here is why we use DA's to ration out building permits in
some manner that we could absorb it effectively, then, I'm not supportive of annexation.
I'm done. Because people like this project get caught every now and then with this
concern we are not talking about. So, what's the tool that makes me feel comfortable --
oh, we can absorb 950 new units each year. This fits into that model, we are good. Or
if we are going to deny an application we can say here is why, we can't absorb it. It
doesn't fit. We are not going to lower our standards in our community, even though the
demand is there.
De Weerd: Mr. Borton --
Borton: So --
De Weerd: -- I think this is a great conversation that we talked about in our strategic
plan and from tools and maybe better -- better used then --
Borton: Sure.
De Weerd: -- then right now.
Borton: Fair enough. And -- I will stop. But here is -- in fairness to the applicant and to
the developer, so they understand my position, I'm going to support this project. I'm
going to vote for it. But I want it to be pretty clear the concern, come first of the year, if
there is not something that we could utilize that -- just for me personally, I'm not going
forward with annexations unless I can feel comfortable our levels of service aren't going
to be jeopardized. That's all.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Mr. Borton hit on something that's really important. The decisions we make
today will dramatically affect, you know, levels of service and other things, et cetera, in
the future dramatically and I think the reason why I struggle with this -- this project so
much is because it's just the lack of creativity with it. I remember when I was on my --
one of the first couple applications when I was on Planning and Zoning Commission a
long time ago and I was inexperienced and I -- and I wasn't familiar with the process as
much as I am now, but my feeling hasn't changed in regard to these irrigation ponds and
-- and stormwater drain ponds, it's almost like we are trying to, you know, put lipstick on
a pig a little bit and just throw a little bench out there, you know, make it look like it's an
amenity, you know. I -- I have seen these things. No one is going to sit around them.
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You know, they are terrible and then -- and that's what bugs me about this project is that
it's just -- it's just a -- with all due respect it's a terrible project. It's -- it's just a -- it's a me
to project that -- that doesn't move the bar and in Meridian we are going to have to
come to a time where we are going to have to make some tougher decisions in regard
to the type of quality that we are -- we are -- you know, that we are improving. I get that
it meets the -- all of the -- I get that it meets code. I get that it -- you know, it meets the
minimum qualifications, but going forward, my goodness, I think it's important to just --
you know, like Denise said, just raise that bar a little bit. You know what I mean? And
provide a little bit more open space and not say that that open space, although it's not
usable, is an irrigation pond, because that's not open space to me. It's just not . So, I
get it, but it's --
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. -- Mr. Nary, are we providing anything new that this -- we closed the
public hearing and now we are having some interesting conversations. I just would like
to have you weigh in. Are we okay so far?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I don't know. In the legal world --
Council Member Borton will understand -- this is what I would consider dicta. It's
interesting information. It doesn't have any relevance to the decision in front of you. It's
talking about something in the future that may be relevant , but it doesn't really drive your
discussion or decision today. I think it's good information. I think it's helpful. I don't
mean that to sound disrespectful, but that it's not -- but, no, it's not -- it's not detracting
from your conversation. Until you make an action I can't tell you whether or not it has
any impact.
De Weerd: I'm just concerned that we have kind of lost our focus on the application and
that's what I'm asking you to make a decision on.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: To that point -- Mr. Bernt's point, I have got an irrigation pond in my
neighborhood. I have never considered it an amenity. I think probably the seven year
old kids that go play in the mud find it an amenity, but I'm sure their parents certainly do
not. I don't see any enjoyment that comes from a company if you call an irrigation pond
an amenity, whether there is a bench there or not. So, I appreciate your comments,
Council Member Bernt, and I'm in agreement.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
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Palmer: So, for four years I have been here, week in and week out, we have said we
need to step it up, we need to do this, we need to do that. Well, it's this board that
makes those decisions. Staff has done an incredible job trying to guess what it is that
we want and we have made teeny little adjustments as they have been able to kind of
think, okay, I think most of the Council likes this idea, you know, single level, not having
to worry so much about articulation or whatnot along arterial roads, whatever. But it's
just -- it's us that make that decision and, instead, we wait until there is an application in
front of us and, then, we throw a fit and say now try better. We set the standards. An
applicant applies to the standards or better, comes here, spends a whole bunch of
money to get to this point for us to say take a hike. Try again. I -- I can't tell you how
grateful I am to Councilman Borton changing his mind to -- especially on such a small
project, to not have to force them to get to this point and met all of our standards and
say go away again. So, if -- if standards need to change we need to change those
standards now or four years ago, before people keep spending just a fortunate to be
able to get in front of us for us to make a decision based on information we received on
Friday.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
Palmer: Is it appropriate -- even though my motion failed, can you make the same
exact motion?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, the people who voted in the -- in the
prevailing side, someone from that side --
Milam: No, they have -- Joe has to make a motion.
De Weerd: Any further discussion?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: We are all on a soap box tonight. I just want to kind of echo what Councilman
Palmer just said. I have been sitting here for almost six years. I'm leaving and for at
least five years I have been saying raise the standards. Why are we not raising the
standards? And we do this and, then, we beat up applicants, because they are minimal,
but they meet our minimum standards. This has three amenities. It only is required to
have one. And the irrigation one is not counted as one of those amen ities. So, that's
just there. But I'm looking at you three that are sticking around -- change the minimum
standards and if you want to maybe slow down the development, change the minimum
standards a lot. There is one way to slow it down a little bit, so it makes a really nice
subdivision. Okay. Go for it. Oh, you can't. Joe.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I will make a motion. It sounds like that's where it needs to come from. I'm
going to move that we approve Item 7-C, H-2019-0066, to include the -- all the
conditions of approval, including those represented at tonight's public hearing.
Palmer: Can anyone second?
Milam: Second. Yeah.
De Weerd: And Mrs. Milam second?
Milam: Sure.
De Weerd: Okay. Any further discussion?
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Does that include the aeration mosquito abatement?
Borton: Yes.
De Weerd: Mr. Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll call: Borton, yea; Milam, yea; Cavener, nay; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts, yea; Bernt,
aye.
De Weerd: Okay. The ayes have it. That is the process of government. Have good
discussion and thank you for joining us tonight.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE NAY.
D. Public Hearing for Hands Free Driving Ordinance
De Weerd: Okay. Item 7-D is a public hearing for hands free driving ordinance that's
under consideration and chief or Mr. Nary?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, a few months ago you had a discussion
about having a hands free driving ordinance within the city. You have an ordinance on
your agenda that we have drafted. We have basis on other cities around the state that
have had these types of ordinances. Pocatello, Idaho Falls, Hailey are the ones that
come to mind. That was the basis of this ordinance. It is a discussion draft. So, it is
one for first reading. It can be amended. It can be rescheduled. It can be -- it can be
vacated. Whatever your desire. One of the things that was left out, because it was a
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discussion, was what level of penalty you think would be appropriate if you were to pass
this ordinance. Infractions have been discussed. There are other types of offenses to
deal with driving that are misdemeanors. Reckless driving and inattentive driving in the
state. I want to help clarify a little for the record -- I know that Council knows this. You
hear a lot of terms being used that distracted driving is the right way to address th is type
of driving behavior. There is no such thing as distracted driving in the state of Idaho.
There is only reckless and inattentive and those have specific -- specific types of
behaviors related to reckless and not quite so articulate d such as behavior related to
inattentive driving. But those two exist. They are both misdemeanors. If it's a serious
enough case reckless would also be a felony, but that's really the discussion point. The
discussion was this could be an infraction. Under t he city code if you don't designate
what -- at what level of infraction fine it is it's a 25 dollar fine, plus court costs. I could
give you the math, but it's about 60 bucks is what the total is. If you want to designate
higher fines, you have up to 300 dollars in the Idaho Code to designate a fraction. So,
that's some opportunity you have for this ordinance to have that conversation, but the
ordinance is in front of you. The language that's in the ordinance has actually been
reviewed by a district court in the state of the Fifth District, which is the area east of here
encompassing the Twin Falls-Hailey area and it was based on Hailey's ordinance, which
this language is very similar to, and that district court determined that this was compliant
with the Idaho Code. It was not in conflict with the Idaho Code and it was upheld by that
district court. So, that's the only example we have currently in our city in regards to this
type of ordinance. So, that's a long winded introduction to the chief, he has probably
more relevant data that you're interested in in regards to driving behaviors and law
enforcement.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Nary. Chief Lavey, thank you for joining us.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, Council, it's kind of ironic that on my way home this evening to
prepare to come back here, I almost was taken out by a person that was on the ir phone.
So, I think that's a sign. The growth rating of Meridian has been -- has seen
unprecedented levels sometimes and it does not appear to be slowing in the
foreseeable future. The roadway infrastructure cannot keep up with the pace of growth
we are experiencing. To end results we are seeing on our roadways are increased
crashes and road rage incidences. We have seen a 37 percent increase in crashes on
that Chinden corridor alone. Many of these are because people are not paying attention
while driving their vehicles. In May I proposed a hand free ordinance for the City of
Meridian. That -- that idea came about after seeing several cities doing the same thing
after multiple years of trying to get the Idaho legislature to make this a state law. This
past year at the state level not only did we not get a state law to curb the problem, but
there was a bill proposed taking the right away from cities and counties for making our
own ordinances. That also did not pass. There are many arguments out there that try
to sway against city ordinances or even state law. The first is that the state is going to
do it, so why should we -- why shouldn't we wait for the state. I do not share the
confidence based upon my legislative experience that we can afford to wait any longer.
There is an argument that there are other distractions people are doing while in their
vehicles, such as applying makeup, shaving, reading and eating, just to name a few.
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These have been true for many decades and it still does happen, but it is not frequent
like we see with phones in the hands of drivers. One just needs to watch the drivers on
our roadways to see where the biggest problem lies. Another argument is that there are
already laws on the books to address these problems. First must we -- first we must
look at what laws do exist and, then, we also have to look at how they are interpreted by
the prosecutors and by the courts. Reckless driving is perhaps the most serious driving
offense that deals with poor driving. This is a misdemeanor which requires beyond a
reasonable doubt for us to prove in court and it really has to do with some very serious
and dangerous driving. Also it -- it has to encompass at least three moving violations,
speeding, aggressive driving and such. This is a pretty serious charge. Another
example would be drag racing, driving on the sidewalk or speeding through a parking lot
with a crowd of people. Inattentive driving is the lower level of reckless. It's still a
misdemeanor and still requires us to prove beyond a reasonable doubt , but it really, in
essence, is an after-the-fact violation and what I mean by that is you must cause the
danger and, then, you get a ticket. We see that often in Meridian where someone will
actually be not paying attention, being distracted, cause a crash and, then, it's
appropriate for us to issue a citation. That is not how we want to work things. We want
people to make the proper choices before they get into crashes. The third violation that
currently is on the books addresses texting while driving. This is one that Meridian took
a lead on not only on a city ordinance level, but, then, also on a statewide level. It took
many many years for the state to actually adopt this and in this current law there is a lot
of exceptions that allows people to have their phones in their hands. So man y
exceptions is it's really difficult for us to prove in fact what that person was actually
doing while on the phone. We figured it out and we have written 198 citations for texting
while driving last year. I think you have the stats in front of you. We forwarded them.
I'm not sure exactly what they are for this year. I do have them in front of me if you
need them. But it's not just people texting on their phone that's the problem. It's people
that are on their phones that really think that they are driving quite well and have no
idea that they are crossing the center line or that they are slowing people up or, frankly,
today the guy that I just mentioned was on his phone with GPS and had it in his hand
out in front of him like this and was busy trying to stare at it as he's driving down the
road and missed the stop sign. Now that wasn't intentional, but if he wouldn't have
been on the phone it wouldn't have been a problem. The other thing that we are finding
is that it's creating a lot of road rage incidences, because people just aren't paying
attention. They think that they have to slow down. Just yesterday we had one where
the person was slowing down for a school bus that was in the opposite lane, just
because she was on the phone and wasn't paying attention and so the school bus
slowed down, she slowed down, the person behind her got upset, started tailgating her,
then, we started having brake checking and, then, we -- they got out in the middle of the
intersection and started having an argument as I was pulling up. So, it's juvenile
behavior from adults because of a phone. People will say that they only text while
stopped at a stoplight or at a stop sign and we commend them for texting -- for not
texting while in the vehicle while the vehicle is in motion. But this is another leading
cause for the road rage incidences that we are experiencing and the people have said
I'm a safe driver while I'm on the phone. I would challenge them and ask are you a safe
driver or are you a unlucky driver. At a recent distracted driving presentation by a father
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who lost his daughter to texting while driving, he discussed how unsafe it is to be on the
phone while we are driving and he equated it to disrespectful driving, not distracted
driving. This statement resonated with me because one of our core values in Meridian
is respect. I strongly urge you to pass this ordinance because it is -- not only is it the
right thing to do, it's the right time to do it and it's for the right reasons. If we do not write
a single ticket because people chose to do the right thing, then, we all have won. I will
stand for any questions.
De Weerd: Thank you, Chief. Council, any questions?
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: This has been one I have thought a lot about. It's an interesting -- it's a
complicated issue in regard to role of government versus existing laws, also taking into
consideration maybe doing a better job enforcing our current laws and in speaking with
folks who have reached out to me, my question do you, chief, is is there a way in which
we can better utilize and enforce our current laws without having to create mor e laws to
solve this problem? I know you just spend five minutes talking, but I just want to -- it's
just -- it's just a question that comes up time and time again when people approach me
about this.
Lavey: The simple answer is no.
Bernt: Okay. Why?
Lavey: I think I just covered it.
Bernt: I mean like main talking points.
Lavey: So, what would -- what -- Madam Mayor, Councilman Bernt, I already covered
the laws that currently are for reckless driving.
Bernt: Right.
Lavey: Obviously we are not going to be able to use reckless driving.
Bernt: No.
Lavey: We have texting while driving and we can't use that for people that are on the
phones, because they have that exception. The only thing that we could use would be
inattentive driving. The courts have said this is an after-the-fact violation where you
have to actually have to do something, have some sort of outcome, as in crashing
before we can write you that ticket. If I go write every single person that's on the phone
an inattentive driving ticket because they were on the phone, every single one of them
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are going to get kicked out of court and all it's going to do is clog up the courts. It's not
an appropriate law to address what should be a simple decision for people to do the
right thing. I know that this city and this state does not like to make laws and they don't
want to have more laws. But, unfortunately, we have laws out there for speeding and
we still have speeders. We have laws out there for DUIs and we still have DUIs. We
have laws out there for homicide. We still have homicides. W e have to have laws in
place to show people and hold them accountable for those behaviors when they make a
wrong decision. The nice thing about it is that when that law is on the books we get
somewhere between a 60 percent and an 80 percent rate of doing the right thing
because it's now a law. If we could have people that would do the right thing and get off
their darn phones and not have to do a law, then, that's great. But we have watched
year after year after year and it's getting worse, it's getting worse, and it's getting worse.
So, I challenge all of you here is the great time for you to sit there and take an action
like we have done, six or seven different times when we have had city ordinances on
different things that we know has impacted us as a community. We get enough cities
that have enough guts to do that, the state will take notice and they will make it a law.
But until then I think we need to do something here on a local level to not only for ce our
citizens to make those right choices, but to protect those citizens that don't have a
choice to make.
De Weerd: So, chief --
Lavey: I was on the soapbox there. Sorry, Joe.
Borton: It's contagious.
De Weerd: So, chief, the proposal would be in an infraction and not a misdemeanor.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, yes, that was our proposal is that it would be an infraction.
Currently I can tell you that under state code most moving infractions are 90 dollars,
plus court costs if you decide to take it to court. We don't have an opinion on it. You
can decide whatever you want. We just believe that it needs to be an infraction to not
clog up our courts, but also -- and I didn't really cover this, sorry, is that I kept talking
about under misdemeanors it's beyond a reasonable doubt. Under an infraction it's
more likely than not. And so it's easier to proof. It's easier for someone to contest it if
they want to contest it. If they are cited there is less points that go on the record.
Reckless driving is four points that goes on their record. I think a moving is -- is two
points.
Milam: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I apologize, I have to leave, and I just want to -- I love your passion for this,
chief. I can tell it's like -- it's very -- very important to you. I can hear it in your voice
and -- and I admire that and I'm supportive most of the way, but still I think the part -- the
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only part of this that and I am struggling with is when the vehicle is stopped and I just
have a really hard time believing that that causes very many accidents. If you're at a
red light. You might -- you might have to drive for an hour and to be able to just do a
quick something at a red light and pay attention and go when the light turns green, I
don't see as a major traffic hazard. So, that's -- that's kind of where I'm at. That's the
part I'm struggling with.
De Weerd: I have got a friend who was rear ended because she was sitting at a stop
sign, the car in front of her moved, she moved and the car in front of that didn't, because
they were on their phone.
Milam: They needed to be paying attention to the road.
De Weerd: Well, they are not.
Lavey: They are on their phone.
De Weerd: They are on their phone texting a really quick text before they drive, so they
are stopped.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, Council Member Milam, I know that you brought that up before
and I -- and I understand that. One of our biggest problems is not crashes there, it's the
road rage incidences. It's where people are not paying attention, the light turns green,
they are not going because they are still engrossed in the phone. But you did talk about
crashes. One of the points that we do find where there is crashes is people are in the
straight lane at a red light, they are on their phone, they see the green turn light go, they
think it's green and they go. So, we do have crashes when they are on the phone,
because they are not paying attention.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Jeff, appreciate your recommendation at least in terms of where you want to
see this classified. You bring up I think a good point about road rage and that's
something that when you first brought this up wasn't even on my radar to consider and I
started to wonder do we have laws against road rage and -- if somebody -- if somebody
-- I have had this -- I have been hit by a texter, you know, they were -- I stopped, they
were on their phone, boom, hit the back of my car. So, I'm sympathetic to that. But I
have also seen these road rage incidents and they are incredibly frightening. Even for
somebody like to me see this happen and so I'm curious -- I appreciate wanting to
address what we think is a big issue. To me these incidences of road rage are equally
concerning as well. I'm just curious what we have on the books, what you and your
team have in terms of tools and resources to enforce that and prevent that from
happening.
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Lavey: Madam Mayor, Council Member Cavener, that's an interesting question and I
never really considered that before. There is no laws on the books that would address
a road rage incident if it was verbal only. It's only when it escalates to the point of --- we
have had people pull guns on people, then, that becomes an aggravated battery or an
aggravated assault, depending on what they do with it. If it's involved in fisticuffs where
they actually get physical, then, we have battery also and we have had those as well.
But if you just want to go and have a dialogue with each other on the roadway and
obstruct traffic, I don't know, there might be some obscure code out there that we could
find that could say you can't stop in the roadway, but, no, there is not anything that
addresses poor human behavior on the roadways, unless there is some sort of physical
activity.
Cavener: And, Madam Mayor, if I may, Jeff, you know --
De Weerd: Can you pull your --
Cavener: Sorry.
De Weerd: Yeah.
Cavener: We have all had somebody show us their -- their favorite finger and they have
all been willing to kind of swear at us or whatever, you know, as they as driving past and
that part is less concerning to me. The part that I'm concerned about is when people
either -- stop and get out of their vehicle and -- and I don't know if that's a conversation
for us. I mean to me that is an issue that I would be much more comfortable us
addressing first is what we are doing to stop road rage in our community before we sta rt
having a conversation about -- about people using their phones while they are stopped
at a stoplight. I -- part of me thinks that we have got really good laws on the books to
address issues of people who are using their phones, moving in and out of lan es
without signaling, speeding, not stopping and, honestly, I think inattentive driving to me
it has seemed like the logical place, but I am concerned that the big piece that you
talked about that we don't have a plan in place for that -- and I don't know if it's parallel
tacks or separate tracks, but that's a piece that I think is really important that we are
working through.
Lavey: Madam Mayor and Councilman Cavener, I guess I would argue back that there
is a symptom and there is a root cause and I believe the root cause is the texting and
the symptom of that is the road rage, not conversely.
De Weerd: This is a public hearing. Council, let's see if we have people signed up
and --
Lavey: I'm not going anywhere. I can come back up.
De Weerd: Thank you, chief. Mr. Clerk.
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Johnson: Madam Mayor, there are two people signed in, both wishing to testify. First is
Bryan Leisle.
De Weerd: Okay. Good evening. Thank you for waiting for this item. We appreciate
you being here. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Leisle: My name is Bryan Leisle and I live at 4647 North Tipton. 83646.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bryan.
Leisle: So, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, first I want to thank you all for
considering this ordinance. As Chief Lavey said, I think most cities in Idaho are doing it
because of the inaction and the incompetence of our state legislature to deal with it. I
ride my bike for transportation, so do my kids, so does my wife occasionally, so I am
viscerally aware of distracted drivers, drivers not paying attention, because they kill
people like me on a regular basis. My daughter rides her bike to Ren aissance and it's
about 25 minutes away from our house and she has to go down Locust Grove and I told
her ride on the sidewalk, because our bike facilities are inadequate and somebody gets
on their phone, all it takes is three seconds and they could hit her. These are
preventable deaths. Pedestrians, bicyclists have an out size -- they are more at risk
than other people in cars. From 2008 to 2017 pedestrian deaths have increased by 35
percent, whereas motor vehicle deaths have decreased by five percent. So, cars are
getting safer, but our pedestrians, who are out of cars and bicycles that are out of ca rs,
they are more at risk. Cell phones in use over that same period has increased five fold.
The correlation doesn't cause -- isn't causation, but, you know, it doesn't take a genius
to figure out cell phones are a problem. Again, these are preventable deaths.
Especially for the vulnerable road users out there. And I -- I -- like Chief Lavey said, the
-- the books that we have -- the laws we have on the books now, they don't specifically
address people just looking at their phone, it's only texting and -- I mean he is the
expert, I would listen to him. So, I would encourage you to pass this ordinance. And
that's it.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Leisle: One final comment. Madam Mayor, I want to thank you for your service.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Leisle: Enjoy your time out of City Hall in retirement.
De Weerd: Thank you. I appreciate that, Bryan.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
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Cavener: You can sit down. I just -- I want to point out for Council -- Bryan is on our
transportation commission, has been a staunch advocate of people who ride bicycles
and pedestrians in our community. I appreciate you being here and your service to the
community. Yours is a voice that when you speak up my ears tune in. I appreciate you
being here tonight.
De Weerd: You know, I just recently came back from the Netherlands and bicyclists
have the top priority on the road and if you go there you will understand why. But they
don't allow a phone in a hand, because of the pedestrian piece, the bicycle piece. I
would invite you to stand on any street corner in our community and just watch drivers
and see how many cell phones are in the hands. We did seatbelt safety and we were
watching cars to see how many people we ar their seatbelts. It became so distracting
looking at the number of phones in people's hands, it was hard to keep our teens
focused on the seatbelt when all they could see were people using their cell phone
devices, so -- and, lastly, go to a school zone and watch those crossing guards and
those buses and there are many many near misses because traffic is watching their
phone, not our kids. Mr. Clerk. Sorry.
Johnson: Madam Mayor, next --
De Weerd: Since we are getting used to soap boxes right now.
Johnson: Jim Nunely is next.
De Weerd: Jim. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who wishes to provide
testimony on this? Yes.
LaFever: Denice LaFever. 6706 North Salvia Way. And I want to commend you guys
for going back through and articulating your ideas. Win, lose or draw, I love to hear
what's going on. Thank you. I just have a question. Is the problem mobile cell phone --
I mean the cell phone in your hand or is it cell phones in general? Because I have seen
it both ways and I personally ask myself the question is it worth killing myself or
somebody else when I go pick up the phone. But, you know, the real question is is
there an issue with people talking on cell phones that aren't holding on to it? Because I
see that as well when I'm out driving around people just aren't going. I really think this
is one of those kind of things, though, that you put forward that maybe it needs to come
to a vote and a resident needs to make that determination if it's something they want in
their community. It's a pretty big thing cell phones. They are really important. There is
different reasons that people are on their phone. I agree there are issues with it. I
thinks it's very frustrating when you're sitting at a light and even if somebody's holding
onto a phone or not holding onto a phone, you can tell they are sitting there talking and
they are not going. And so you're getting more honking on the phone. But I do think
maybe we should think about sending this on out to a vote to the people.
De Weerd: Advisory votes are -- it looks like there is a need for legislation to even ask
our citizens what they think, so -- we just talked about that earlier.
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LaFever: Thank you.
De Weerd: But I would agree with you. Any questions for Ms. LaFever? Okay. Thank
you. Any other thoughts? We would love to hear you weigh in. I imagine there are
people sitting in the audience because they were interested in this. Okay. Council?
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: Since we started this discussion I have paid closer attention at intersections and
people driving down the streets. It's amazing when you're stopped at an intersection
how many people just automatically go to their cell phones. I'm not saying it's a hundred
percent. I can't even put a percentage on it, to be honest with you. I would be remiss to
-- I wouldn't be honest with you, the citizens of Meridian that are listening and watching
to put a percentage on it, but it's enough. It is a concern and I had a daughter that just
recently got done with drivers training and -- and she watched the videos and she
watched -- she heard what was spoken to the class. The dangers of texting and driving
or being on your cell phone while driving and I'm not a hundred percent. I would be
lying to say that I haven't stopped at the stoplight and check a quick text or -- I have
ADD sometimes and I forget. So, if I don't get to it real quick I feel like I will forget, so I
will just send off a quick e-mail and I have been one of those guys that have been
honked at and I wave, I'm sorry, but it is a problem and I think as a role of -- to me this
isn't -- my personal opinion -- it's not an issue of whether the government should get
more involved or more relaxed. For me it's an issue of public safety and I was elected
by the citizens of Meridian running to look after the safety of the -- of the city and when I
see people dying and when I see road rage incidents, when I see inattentive driving,
near misses, it -- it causes concern and so -- those are my thoughts.
De Weerd: Okay. Other comment?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: Hearing from the public has been really helpful. Over the last couple weeks --
and I would have hoped more would have shown up for tonight and maybe if this is
continued we will get more input, but there seems to be two camps of individuals that
ask questions and in one camp the most common response I get in the discussion is
either utilize existing laws or you have -- the state should be the solution. Those aren't
wrong opinions, but most of those opinions are premised upon accepting that as the
problem that deserves a solution and, then, the disagreement is only what mechanism
do we use to solve it. So, to that camp I find everyone in agreement that some action
needs to be taken -- could be taken to solve it and very -- very few and very rare do I
hear a comment that it should just be permitted and some of the metrics that the chief
provided last month -- and we talked about the -- the financial cost, the economic loss,
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the deaths and injuries that are caused directly by it -- it be, in essence saying I'm okay
with that level of crashes and fatalities in my community and that's an acceptable
amount of economic loss in exchange for the liberty to talk on my cell and be distracted.
I don't hear that a lot. So, maybe that's -- maybe that doesn't really hold a lot of water.
So, everyone's really in the -- if most common -- most common is the argument that
utilize existing laws or have the state solve it, to me begs the question of why don't we.
So, as we gather more input I haven't heard the compelling argument that would say
distracted or cell phone usage while you drive. We are willing to accept th e cost within
our community that it clearly provides and we have the data that you would, in essence,
be accepting if we didn't act. So, I found that to be -- I guess it's an interesting
observation when we get public input on it, so it seems like we have an opportunity to
do something.
De Weerd: Well -- and two of those three tools have been bantered around are
misdemeanors and not infractions and the infraction piece I think allows some flexibility
with our law enforcement to talk about it and educate and I think that's one of the things
we did very well when the City Council had passed the texting while driving law before
the state did, it allowed our police officers the opportunity to have the conversations with
citizens and -- and even then have -- reserve judgment on the level of severity and
being judicial in how they use that tool.
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Is it legal to have a dog in your lap while driving? Dogs. Babies. I mean I see
that a lot as well. I mean there is a lot of things that we could just pile onto it, but -- but
this is the -- I don't know.
De Weerd: The public hearing is about cell phones.
Borton: Madam Mayor, to that point I think that -- here is why that's an interesting
question is intuitively I would say it doesn't happen very often and cause economic loss
and injury to others. I know we have got data on distracted driving. I would be open to
hear data on crashes caused by dogs in a lap or a baby. I mean if it's common, it's
common and if there is data out there, great, so --
Palmer: Madam Mayor. I was just asking because -- I mean this -- this is already
determined that this is going to pass and -- but I'm just wondering if there is any way we
could make it better by maybe adding a few things that, obviously, happen out there and
-- countless dogs hanging out driver windows.
Borton: So -- Madam Mayor. To that, it's a public hearing, it's a first read. We might
continue this to a second read. I don’t know what's going to happen, but anyone in the
public or on Council wants to articulate the reason why the -- the costs that the chief has
described for us are ones we should accept and nonaction is the more appropriate
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course and to tell our community that we like that much economic loss and we are okay
with people getting hit and articulate it. I mean it's a public hearing. I would love to hear
it. I don't know how you make that argument, but if there is an argument to be made I'm
all ears in consideration of whether or not we should act on this ordinance.
De Weerd: Any other comments? I mean we still have an open public hearing. We
could keep it open and have the three readings. I'm just looking for a directive.
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: As it's currently proposed I am not supportive. I got to be honest, I am so
floored that we had two people show up. Hop on the internet -- oh, sorry. I said I was
floored that only two people that testified. Hop online on social media and everybody is
talking about this and everybody is an expert, everybody's got an opinion. My phone
has rang. I know many of you have heard from constituents. I have as well on both
sides. The fact that only two people -- and, Denise, I love it, you're here every week, so
I mean really -- we had one person who cared about this issue so much to come down
and talk to us. That disappoints me. I received and so I correspond with constituents --
studies that show that distracted driving is as deadly as drinking while driving. That's a
big deal. I don't know if the infraction warrants if this is as deadly as getting behind the
wheel after getting sauced -- an infraction doesn't seem correct. So, I'm supportive of
continuing the public hearing and I hope we have got our friends from the media here,
who I'm sure will do a great story on this and I hope that if I ever get quoted that they
say come and testify and tell us what you think. Comments on Facebook or Twitter
DM's don't. I want to hear from people who care about this is sue enough to come and
talk to us.
Bongiorno: Mayor and City Council.
De Weerd: Mr. Bongiorno.
Bongiorno: Thank you. I concur with chief and thank you, Council Member Bernt and
Council Member Borton, for bringing up the deaths. As the guy that's been out on the
street cutting these people out of their cars because of distracted driving -- I have a
certain 17 year old girl that is in my mind constantly out on Eagle Road that -- so to
Council Member Cavener's point, this can't wait. I am surprised it's been this long as it
is that -- that nothing has been done, because the deaths are a tragedy and they can be
averted and hands free will help. That's the Fire Department's thoughts.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
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Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I would ask if -- if the desire is to
continue -- I have spoken with our prosecuting agency and gotten their feedback. They
have made a couple of minor suggestions in regards to the definition section that we
would correct. As we spoke at the beginning, if the desire is to continue the hearing
would like to know what your thoughts are in regards to the punishment. If you're not
ready to make that direction tonight that's fine as well. But that's -- that's not even
contained currently in the ordinance. It just makes it unlawful, which would put it into a
generalized category in the city code and actually would make it a misdemeanor. So, I
don't know that that's your intent, but just wanted you to be aware that we would still
seek that direction on the penalty provision if this is the desire. In speaking with -- with
the prosecuting agency -- and this kind of helps maybe Council Member Bernt's
question about is the laws that we currently have adequate -- I was a prosecutor for a
long time, but I haven't been one for a long time. In my experience you would not get a
judge to agree under the way inattentive driving is written in the state code to cite
somebody for that for merely speaking on a phone, possibly drifting out of a lane,
possibly driving above or below the speed limit slightly, without a collision or at least a
near collision that the officer witnessed, we would not have anybody convicted of that. I
asked that of our prosecuting agency's supervising attorney today, I said that's been my
experience, has that changed, and she said no. That's exactly the way it is today. So,
inattentive driving is not an adequate code for what this behavior is trying to address.
So, there isn't something currently adequate in code to deal with this type of thing, so --
Palmer: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: And I understand that the argument that the chief is making that it's -- if no one
was talking on their phone, then, it's never going to be the cause of swerving out of your
lane or speeding or whatnot, but to the point that you just made, isn't speeding, no
matter how -- how little over the speed limit or swerving out of a lane, aren’t those
already illegal?
Nary: Yes, those are illegal.
Palmer: So, while they may not fall under the -- the laws of inattentive driving, they are
still illegal actions to have done, regardless of the cause of them.
Nary: Yes.
De Weerd: Chief, do you have any comments after taking testimony and some of the
questions and discussion?
Lavey: Madam Mayor, I don't know if some of the questions were actual questions or if
they were kind of rhetorical statements, but as far as the dog in the lap, it's interesting
that you bring that up, because there is a lot of states that have actually made that a
law. They've actually put it in place that says an animal has to be restrained inside your
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car. It can't be in your lap. And this -- if you do that this is the penalty. Not our state.
Other states. In our state it would be the same action as anything else in the car. If that
was the subject of the reason what caused you to crash or near crash , then, you could
be issued an inattentive driving ticket. If the dog is merely hanging out the window, h ow
do you prove that that's a distraction inside the car. I don't -- I don't know. Our
surrounding states, our neighbors have figured out that the only way they have been
able to address this -- because people have chose to not do the right thing -- is to make
it a law. Currently in Washington and currently in Oregon and currently in Nevada,
which I believe all surround Idaho, make it unlawful to have that cell phone in your
hands. I suspect in the state of Idaho that also is going to be true. But we operate just
a little bit slower and, then, maybe one year, it may be two years, it may be five years
before that becomes law. It's coming. The challenge I have that I make to you is can
we wait. Can we afford that knowing the burden it is creating on everybody's lives and I
know that every one of us in here has probably been on our phones when they shouldn't
have been. Ask yourself how would you sleep if you struck and killed somebody
because you weren't being safe and you were just being lucky. We need to act on this.
I will stand for any other questions.
De Weerd: Any additional questions -- any other questions for the chief right now?
Okay.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, just for the record I will not be here next week, I will be out of
town, so if you make some sort of decision that requires me to be here just keep in mind
I can't be here next week and someone will have to fill in for me. Thank you.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: I would -- I would be supportive of continuing this -- this dialogue. I have three
points that I would like to continue to discuss. Number one is the level of infraction, the
penalty that's associated with it. I guess that's our point was let's continue to discuss
further, so -- those are the two points that I wanted to -- I just think it's important that we
should talk about, you know, how much it's going to cost, what's the penalty going to be
and level or infraction -- level of the infractions. So, those are my two concerns. But I'm
in favor of continuing the discussion.
De Weerd: So, Mr. Nary, can you reach out -- I -- I don't know if the other cities that
have passed something have detailed what that penalty is, if it's an infraction or a
misdemeanor, and it sounded like from the chief's presentation there is a set amount for
infractions that is a law. Ninety bucks? Ninety dollars.
Nary: Madam Mayor, for current moving violation for a speeding ticket, there is a set
fine and there is a set court cost and it averages -- it comes out to about 93 dollars.
But, again, in the infraction code you have the ability to set an infraction to up to 300
dollars. It used to be the maximum fine was one hundred. That's not taking into account
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the court costs and fees. So, the fine part is what you have the authority to control or
direct. It was contemplated by the legislature last session to have graduated citation for
first and second and subsequent offenses of an infraction. I believe -- and I'm not a
hundred percent certain -- it was a hundred dollars I think, then 200 dollars and, then,
300 dollars. So, you have that ability to set those infraction fines and, then, the court
costs get tacked on top of that and the court costs end up being 50 to 60 bucks.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I'm supportive of the principle to continue a couple weeks, maybe to the 8th if
the chief is here then. Whatever clean up language in the draft that comes from the city,
if there is some structure to -- to punishment provision -- we don't know what it will be,
but perhaps you can include the structure to it, at least so the public sees kind of how it
might be laid out and decide that at a future date. One of the principles that you
described when we get to that discussion in a couple of weeks is it's intended in large
part to be an educational tool and it has a deterrence effect, but an opportunity for
people to learn and we have used things like Alive At 25 as a -- as a carrot to try and
educate -- especially for younger drivers, so for a future discussion there might be some
opportunities to make a tool like this, if it were to go forward, and were successful. So,
future discussion. But the 8th makes sense.
De Weerd: Okay. Do I have a motion to continue the public hearing?
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I will answer your question with a question. What we could do, perhaps, on the
8th is we could have it as a public hearing during the workshop and have a public
hearing at 6:00 o'clock. Is that possible, Mr. Nary, in the off chance it's easier for
someone to show up during the day if they can. If not, the one at 6:00 o'clock. Maybe
have them both.
Nary: You can do both.
Cavener: That's a great idea.
Borton: Okay.
Nary: Madam Mayor, I would suggest, since we will be making some slight
modifications that we continue it as another first reading.
Borton: Okay. And the ordinance -- Madam Mayor. The ordinance would be at the 6:00
o'clock, first reading part; right?
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Nary: Yes.
Borton: Okay. Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I move we continue --
De Weerd: 7-D.
Borton: -- 8-A.
De Weerd: 7-D.
Borton: 7-D. Excuse me. 7-D to October 8th. We will continue that public hearing to
occur at 4:30 during the workshop and, then, at 6:00 o'clock during the regular meeting
where the ordinance will be presented for a new first reading.
Bernt: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Can I get a second before we have discussion.
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second. Mr. Bernt.
Bernt: You have two Council Members that won't be here on the 8th. I won't be here
and Councilman Cavener will not be here on the 8th.
De Weerd: Okay. How about the 15th?
Cavener: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Sorry, my mic is -- this is awesome. I'm must quieter tonight than I normally
am. I don't have any objections to having the public hearing on the 8th. I -- it's possible
that Council would make a decision, but if it's the first reading you wouldn't make a
decision that night anyway; correct?
Nary: No unless you directed it.
Cavener: Yeah. So, I don't --
Borton: You could.
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Cavener: Madam Mayor, that is the risk we as Council Members take when we are not
here for the people's business. So, if that's -- Council takes action and I'm not here with
my soapbox, then, that's folly on me.
De Weerd: Okay. I do have a motion to continue to October 8th.
Cavener: Madam Mayor. Sorry. Just a couple other commen ts on this and, then, we
can move on. I want to thank the chief and Legal Department, Bill Nary. This is one at
first blush I was like I don't want -- I'm not behind this. But when your law enforcement,
Legal Department say these are tools that we need , I take note. I know we have got
some Council Members that have made up their minds we are going to do this, other
Council Members saying that we don't want to do this. I am really still conflicted on this
and so I am hoping that we hear from members of the public that share their
perspective. Council Member Borton brings up a good point. It's rare that we hear from
somebody who says this isn't a problem. The arguing is about what's the best way to
solve it.
Bernt: Right.
De Weerd: Okay. I do have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing to
October 8th. All those in favor say --
Borton: Madam Mayor, sorry to interrupt real quick.
De Weerd: Okay.
Borton: I just -- I don't know if people have made up their minds or not.
De Weerd: I don't think they have.
Borton: I think this public hearing process is pretty important. The -- lots of people -- or
a few people all are what we weigh to determine, so I don't think anything is decided
whether it happens at all or what version could happen. So, I think stay tuned, that's
why the public process continues.
Cavener: Fair enough.
De Weerd: So, I have a motion and a second to continue this to October 8th. All those
in favor say aye. Any opposed say nay. Okay. The ayes have it.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
De Weerd: Bryan, I think -- I love your passion on bike -- bicycle safety. I think the only
way we are going to start changing people's behavior is to give them safe -- safe
avenues to -- to bike, both for transportation options and for recreation. It's frightening
on the roads as a -- as a bicyclist and you raise a really good point in terms of driver
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inattentiveness is scary and I don't want it to be one of my grandkids that sacrifices
themselves to proof that very point. So, thank you for being here tonight and thank you
for your service.
Item 8: Ordinances
A. First Reading of Ordinance 19-1852: An Ordinance Adding
Meridian City Code Section 7-1-14, Prohibiting the Use of
Handheld Electronic Mobile Devices While Operating a
Vehicle; Adopting a Savings Clause; and Providing an
Effective Date.
De Weerd: Okay. So, we will remove Item 8-A, because we will have a different
reading to -- to publish.
Item 9: Future Meeting Topics
De Weerd: Okay. Anything under nine for future meeting topics?
Item 10: [Amended onto Agenda] Executive Session per Idaho State Code 74 -
206(1)(d) To consider records that are exempt from disclosure as
provided in Chapter 1, Title 74, Idaho Code
De Weerd: If not I move to our amended agenda for Executive Session and entertain a
motion.
Borton: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Borton.
Borton: I move we go into Executive Session pursuant to Idaho State Code 74 -
206(1)(d).
Cavener: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and second to adjourn into Executive Session. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
EXECUTIVE SESSION: (8:38 p.m. to 8:51 p.m.)
De Weerd: I would entertain a motion to come out of Executive Session.
Cavener: So moved.
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Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
De Weerd: Do I have a motion to adjourn?
Cavener: So moved.
Little Roberts: Second.
De Weerd: All in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: FIVE AYES. ONE ABSENT.
MOTION CARRIED: ALLAYES.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:51 P.M.
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