2018-10-18Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting October 18,
2018.
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of October 18, 2018, was
called to order at 6:00 p.m. by Acting Chairman Jessica Perreault.
Members Present: Commissioner Jessica Perreault, Commissioner Steven Yearsley,
Commissioner Gregory Wilson, and Commissioner Lisa Holland.
Members Absent: Chairman Rhonda McCarvel, Commissioner Bill Cassinelli, and
Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald.
Others Present: Chris Johnson, Andrea Pogue, Bill Parsons, Josh Beach, Stephanie
Leonard and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance
__X____ Lisa Holland ___X___ Steven Yearsley
__X___ Gregory Wilson _______ Ryan Fitzgerald
__X___ Jessica Perreault _______ Bill Cassinelli
_______ Rhonda McCarvel - Chairman
Perreault: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time I would like to call to order
the regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission on
October 18th, 2018. Let's begin with roll call.
Item 2: Adoption of Agenda
Perreault: Thank you. Before we get started we would like to make a quick
announcement regarding some of the file numbers for Action Items 4-A, 4-B and 4-C.
Those were listed incorrectly on the posted agenda. The correct file numbers are 4-A,
Alturas Rezone -- for 4-A Alturas Rezone, H-2018-0105. For 4-B, Del Taco, is
H-2018-0106. And 4-C, the Goddard School, is H-2018-0108. So, these file numbers
were correct on the mailers and the public notices, but they just were incorrectly marked
on the posted agenda. Okay. So, next we have the adoption of the agenda, Items 4-A
-- A and B, are going to be opened only for the purpose of continuing and it looks like
we have dates for both of those. They will both be continued to November 1st, 2018.
They will be open solely for that purpose. So, if there is anybody here tonight that is
going to testify or interested in testifying, we will not be taking testimony for those
particular applications until November 1st. Okay. So, can I get a motion to adopt the
agenda as amended?
Holland: So moved.
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Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda. All those in favor say
aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Item 3: Consent Agenda [Action Item]
A. Approve Minutes of October 4, 2018 Planning and
Zoning Commission Meeting
B. Findings of Fact, Conclusion of Law for Verraso Village North
H-2018-0071) by Chad Olsen, Located at 3561 E. Tecate Lane
C. Findings of Fact, Conclusion of Law for EEG Office Building
H-2018-0081) by Chad Slichter, Located at 551 SW 5th Ave.
D. Findings of Fact, Conclusion of Law for Meridian High
School Auditorium (H-2018-0101) by LCA Architects, Located
at 1900 W. Pine Ave.
Perreault: Now we will -- the next item on the agenda is the Consent Agenda and we
have four items on the Consent Agenda. 3-A, the approval of minutes for the meeting
of October 4th, 2018, for the Planning and Zoning Commission. The Findings of Fact,
Conclusions of Law for Verraso Village North, H-2018-0071. Findings of Fact,
Conclusions of Law for EEG Office Building, H-2018-0081. And the Findings of Fact,
Conclusions of Law for Meridian High School Auditorium, H-2018-0101. Can I get a
motion to accept the Consent Agenda as presented?
Wilson: So moved.
Holland: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to adopt the Consent Agenda. All those in
favor say aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Perreault: Now, I'm going to explain the public hearing process. At this time we will --
excuse me. I will briefly explain the public hearing process and we will open each item
individually and, then, start with the staff report. The staff will report their findings
regarding how the item adheres to our Comprehensive Plan and Uniform -- Uniform
Development Code, with the staff's recommendations. After the staff has made their
presentation the applicant will come forward to present their case for the approval of
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their application and respond to any staff comments. The applicant will have 15
minutes to do so. After the applicant has finished we will open for public testimony.
There is a sign-up sheet in the back -- and I think we actually have tablets back there --
as you entered
for anyone who wishes to testify. Please do sign up. Those individuals will be allowed
to come forward and speak for up to three minutes. If they are speaking for a larger
group, like a homeowner's association, and there is a show of hands to represent that
group, then, they will be given up to ten minutes. After all testimony has been heard,
the applicant will be given another ten minutes to respond -- take an opportunity to
respond if they choose to do so. After that we will close the public hearing and the
Commissioners will have the opportunity to discuss and, hopefully, be able to make a
recommendation to City Council.
Item 4: Action Items
A. Public Hearing for Alturas Rezone (H-2018-0105) by Travis
Barney, Alturas 1550 Tech Lane, LLC , Located at 1550 S.
Tech Ln
1. Request: Rezone of 7.24 acres from I -L to C-G zone
Perreault: Okay. At this time I would like to open the public hearing for Alturas Rezone,
H-2018-0105, for the purpose of continuing to November 1st.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I move we continue H-2018-0105.
Yearsley: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to continue the public hearing for Alturas
Rezone, H-2018-0105, to November 1st, 2018. All those in favor aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
B. Public Hearing for Del Taco (H-2018-0106) by Tom Lennon,
Located at 1617 W. Island Green Dr.
1. Request: Conditional Use Permit for a drive-through
establishment within 300 feet of a residential district and
existing residences in a C-C zoning district
Perreault: We will also open the public hearing for Del Taco, H-2018-0106, for the
purpose of continuing to November 1st. Can I get motion?
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Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I move we -- I move we continue the public hearing for Del Taco, H-2018-
0106, to the date of November 1st.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to continue the public hearing for Del Taco
H-2018-0106, to the date of November 1st, 2018. All those in favor say aye. Motion
carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
C. Public Hearing for The Goddard School (H-2018-0108) by
Richard Antl, Located at 2009 S. Wells Avenue
1. Request: Conditional Use Permit for a daycare center for up
to 150 children on 1.131 acres in the C -G zoning district
Perreault: Okay. Next is the public hearing for the Goddard School, H-2018-0108. We
will begin with the staff report.
Leonard: Good evening, Madam Chair, Commissioners. The project before you this
evening is a conditional use permit. The site consists of 1.13 acres of land, zoned C-G,
located at 2009 South Wells Avenue. To the north and west is undeveloped land,
zoned C-G. To the south is a future townhome development, zoned C-G as well. Or,
actually, TN-R. Sorry. And to the east is an apartment complex, The Fields
Apartments, zoned R-40. In 2006 the property was included in the annexation and plats
for Kenai Subdivision. The future land use map designation is mixed use regional. A
CUP is requested for a 10,000 square foot daycare center for up to 160 children, six
weeks to six years old, in the C-G district. The site plan depicts how the site is
proposed to develop with two access points. The north driveway is accessed via a
common drive aisle shared with the property to the north. The south driveway is access
via Goldstone Street. Cross-access is provided to the adjacent property to the north
and is required to be improved with asphalt and curbing. A minimum of 20 parking
spaces are required. The applicant is proposing 35 spaces, in excess of UDC
standards. A landscape street buffer and multi-use pathway exists along South Wells
Avenue and East Goldstone Street. A minimum five foot pedestrian walkway is required
to be provided from the perimeter sidewalk to the entrance of the building. Parking lot
landscaping is required to be installed in accord with UDC standards. There are two
proposed play areas, one at the north and one at the south. Both are proposed to be
enclosed with the six foot nonscalable fence. Conceptual building elevations were
submitted to the daycare center. The proposed building is a single story building.
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Materials consists of stucco and brick, with metal seam awnings. The future structure is
required to comply with the design standards listed in the UDC and the architectural
standards manual. There was no written testimony for this project. Staff is
recommending approval with conditions in -- in the report. The staff will stand for any
questions.
Perreault: Any questions for staff? Okay. Thank you. Would the applicant like to come
forward, please. Please state your name and address for the record.
Chatfield: My name is Jon Chatfield, with Chatfield Architecture. I reside at 1911
Montclair Drive, Boise, Idaho. Thank you for hearing our testimony tonight. I want to
start by just kind of recapping what you already have in front of you with the site and the
building and, then, yield my time to a Goddard Daycare representative to go through the
Goddard School and their system and any questions you might have about that. As you
know, starting with the site, this is a 1.1 acre site. We are in the designated zone C-G,
which does allow for daycares with a conditional use, because of our size. We will be in
the Grammercy Subdivision and located on the northwest corner of Wells and
Goldstone. For site development we plan on new trees, landscape the entire site per
city code, that includes grass and a stone -- kind of a riverbed look in front. We will
have direct access from our sidewalks to both Goldstone and Wells. Our parking lot on
the east side will have permeable pavers for drainage. So, it should look nice. Thirty-
five parking stalls, as was mentioned, is what we are providing. Two accessible stalls.
Our garbage enclosure will be a CMU home face structure with painted metal gates, so
it will look nice as well. The school will have two playgrounds, one to the north, one to
the south, 3,500 square feet and 3,300 square feet. It will have a padded play surface
with artificial turf on both ends and, then, we will have play equipment on both sides as
well. The playground will be fenced with a six foot tall metal fence. You can see
through the pickets of the fence. It's not a vinyl fence and it will be a good looking
fence, painted metal fence. The exterior of the building is, as mentioned, it's brick
corners with a wainscot front and stucco above, with window shade -- metal window
shading devices above all the windows and above the main entrance. It's a single level.
The building was designed to fit the character of the neighborhood and some of the
other buildings in the Grammercy Subdivision. We think it blends in and it's
complementary to them. And we will have exterior lighting around the building, building
lighting, and, then, lighting in the parking lot as well. Moving inside, the building is
around a 10,000 square foot building. We have an occupancy group of I-4, which is for
daycares. The building will be fully sprinkled and fire alarmed. There is 160 children.
That's the maximum capacity of the school and, then, it's, you know, six weeks to five
year old children. There is ten classrooms. The restrooms will be in each classroom
with exterior doors in each classroom as well for additional exiting requirement. Not
required by code, but required for convenience and above and beyond code in that
sense. The facility will also have a multi-purpose room, offices, and break room. That's
the technical elements of the project and a really quick briefing. And so now I would like
to yield my time to Brian, who works for the Goddard School franchise, and -- and he
can tell you a little bit more about them. So, thank you.
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Johnston: Good evening, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. Thank you for
allowing us to take your time tonight. I assure you this was not an accident in the
daycare setting. Brian Johnston --
Perreault: Sir, would you mind stating your name and address for the record.
Johnston: Brian Johnston. 1016 West 9th Avenue, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. I'm
the site development manager for Goddard, responsible for the west coast of the United
States. Nationally Goddard is about to open our 500th school this year and so we have
a very wide presence. Everything that we have put together is as a result of the
learning experience of opening those 500 schools. The typical hours, as Jon had said,
is from 6:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. and that's depending on regional demand. Average
occupancy nationally we are looking at about 86 percent across the -- across the
system and for that count we are looking at somewhere between 430 and 440 is what
we are counting as mature schools for that count. Obviously, we have to go through a
rigorous licensing process governed by the state of Idaho and as far as what the staffing
is concerned, the teachers must go through a master level -- I'm sorry, not the teachers,
but the directors must go through a master level program that would have two teachers
for every classroom, plus two to three floaters every day. One of the major concerns
that I always get coming to these types of meetings is the parking and the traffic. Right?
So, just to get ahead of that, we don't have a set start time. So, the nationally -- what
we see as a peak time is 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. and with that rolling start time that takes
the pressure off of the parking lot, but it also takes the pressure off of the -- needing to
have all of the -- all of the teachers there at one particular time. On any given day we
see approximately five to ten percent of absentee for illness or vacation or what have
you and 25 percent of the population nationally is sick, so you will have one car for
multiple children. As it's stated in the staff report, we are only required for 20 spaces,
but we are putting 35 in. We usually get above 30 anyway, even if the requirement is
much less, because just nationally that's what we see as being the sweet spot for the
rollover. Most of the spots on a -- on a given day will be taken by the staff, the teachers,
the director and the owners. As I said earlier, the -- the rolling start time allows the
parents to come in, drop their child off and, then, leave. An average turnover is about
five to ten minutes for that. We don't have a drop-off spot. We do require each parent
to bring their child into the building individually. This, obviously, helps with rapport and
having the interaction with the teachers in the classrooms and everything, but it also
allows it to minimize any stacking up of the vehicles, if you can imagine five or six
vehicles stacking up idling. So, we eliminate that by having the requirement that the
parents park in a specific spot and walk their kids in. From a security standpoint the
building will have a double door entrance. The first door is open to the public and has a
viewing window to one or both of the offices -- usually the office -- the building is set up
so that the director is on one side and the owner is on the other and they have a vision
panel there where the parents must scan their hand or enter a code to gain access
through that second door. All visitors are required to sign in with the office and, then,
are escorted through the building personally by one of the directors. As Jon said, that
the -- you know, the playground is secure with a six foot fence. We like to have the
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fences be see through, so that if there is anything going on outside of the fence the
teachers can be aware of that and act accordingly ahead of time. Outside of the fence,
anywhere that a vehicle can come within 30 feet of a child, whether that be within the
building or in the playgrounds, it's required to have vehicle protection and that's either in
the form of a vehicle rated bollard, which I believe it's a 5,000 pound vehicle at ten miles
an hour. So, the wall is rated for that condition, or a vehicle rated fence. All of the
fencing will be non -- nonscalable. We do have security cameras located around the
building and connected through a CCTV to monitor within the director's office and the
owner's office. So, there is a sense of security as well. And I guess I will -- before I go
too much further I will just open it up to some questions and, hopefully, I have covered
everything, so I'm happy to answer anything. Thank you.
Perreault: Are there any questions for the applicant?
Yearsley: So, I'm kind of intrigued about the dropping off and getting the kids. So, we
have got 35 parking spot -- spots. How many employees did we -- I didn't get the full
count of what we anticipated for employees.
Johnston: We have two -- two teachers per classroom. I don't -- I don't recall how
many -- well, ten classes that would be 20 teachers, but we also have two to three
floaters and the reason being is if there is -- we always have to be within ratio for the
state guidelines and so if a teacher has to -- has an emergency outside of the
classroom, needs to use the restroom or something like that, they can either call one of
the floaters into cover that ratio or have one of the directors come into that room for that
particular time. Because we have a rolling start time not all of those 20 teachers needs
to be there right away and so if we see a pattern over the course of a year or so where,
you know, it's staggered fairly well, some of those teachers might not need to show up
until say 8:00 o'clock and so that, obviously, takes some of this parking spaces and
allows them to be used for drop off, what have you.
Yearsley: Okay. Because I was just looking at, you know, 24 individuals, that's taking
up a good percentage of the parking for dropping off 160 kids and so I was just trying to
wrap my brain around that.
Johnston: I completely understand and that's a question that I get to answer every time
I stand in front of a commission such as yours.
Yearsley: Have you had pretty good success with not having a lot of people having to
park off site to try and drop off their kids at other facilities like this?
Johnston: Yes. In -- in some instances, if it's in a -- depending on the situation we
would have a reciprocity with an adjacent business. Maybe it would be a doctor's office
that might not open until later or if it's in a plaza with some retail spaces. So, it really is
site dependent.
Yearsley: Okay.
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Johnston: Ideally we like to keep everything on site like we have here. When we have
the proper amount of spaces, like we have here, we never have issues with offsite
parking.
Yearsley: And do you guys have like events that would have all your parents try to
come in at once or do you not -- or do you have more localized type of events per
classroom type situation, just --
Johnston: That's really up to the particular owner.
Yearsley: Okay.
Johnston: They have some events, such as graduation, which, obviously, wouldn't
entail the entire student body, but there could be some open houses, in that nature. If
that would come to fruition we would have to just figure out the best course of action for
that. Throughout the system, though, we really overemphasize with our directors and
our owners, the parking and traffic issue is one that always comes up in these meetings
and we want to convey that to them. If we see that the parents just aren't behaving
properly, we make sure that that's addressed immediately. We take it very seriously.
Because we understand that we want to be good neighbors and that's a way that we
could maybe not be a good neighbor, so we want to maintain those relationships and,
obviously, we wouldn't be hitting our 500th school if we didn't take that seriously.
Yearsley: And I appreciate that, because, you know, that's a lot of kids to put in and out
of a school, so I appreciate you're conscientious about parking and drop off and pick up.
Johnston: Sure. And I think -- and to your point about, you know, the events, if it would
be a -- an event that would be a larger event that would have more than the allotment, it
wouldn't be more than maybe one or two times a year. it would be very very minimized.
But a graduation, again, if you're looking at maybe the largest class be 25, 30 kids, you
know, that still fits within our -- our parking arrangement.
Yearsley: Okay. Thank you.
Johnston: Thank you.
Perreault: On that note, what are the width of the parking spaces? I mean do you have
issues with, you know, if you have a parent that has three children and they are getting
them out of the car seats and the parent next door is trying to open their door -- I mean
are there issues with those kinds of things? Because it does seem to -- on top of your
teachers you will probably also have a director there and an office and administration
person there and so you're probably talking about like 23 to 25 people at any one time.
So, then, does that -- with that issue that Commissioner Yearsley mentioned, how is
that working with parents who are getting kids in and out of car seats and, you know,
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making sure the three year old isn't running across the parking lot. So, can you -- can
you just go into more detail about that or do you not run into issues in that regard?
Johnston: We generally don't run into issues. I know that, you know, the -- the directors
and the owners take pride in what they do and it becomes a little family within the
school and if the -- a director sees -- or an owner sees a mom struggling, obviously, that
person will be going right out there and I have seen it personally where a director has
excused themselves in one of our site visits to go help a mom, even if it's just to open a
door to help get a stroller through. So, the support is there. Nothing is in place formally
to address that. We try to orient our parking lots, so that the ones that are being used
the most would be closer to the building to minimize any of that running away, that sort
of thing. I don't have a formal answer for that, other than just I have seen it in person,
that it's -- it's just kind of inspiring how it's a team, you know. It works.
Perreault: Okay. Any more questions for the applicant? Okay. Thank you very much.
Johnston: Thank you.
Perreault: At this time we will take public testimony. Is there anyone signed up?
Johnson: There were people signed -- two folks signed in. Neither indicated they
wished to testify.
Perreault: Okay. Is there anybody else in the room that would like to come up and
speak? Okay. All right. So, at this time can I get a motional to close public hearing for
--
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: -- Item H-2018-0108.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I moved to close H-2018-0108.
Holland: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearing. All those in
favor say aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
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Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: I appreciate the -- the work that they have gone into this. You know, when I
first saw the application I was really concerned about traffic and getting kids in and out
of this facility without causing a lot of a mess. You know, taking my daughter to high
school can be quite a challenge sometimes. So, I am grateful for their planning and
their experience that they have had this, so they can actually try to maximize or
minimize the disruption. So, based on their discussion I feel comfortable moving this
one -- or approving this one.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I would just add I agree and I'm glad that area is going to develop a little bit
and I think this is a good addition to that area, so I will be supporting the application.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I would echo both commissioners' comments here. I think it looks like a good
fit through a mixed use area. I appreciate all the details that they provided and the work
they have put into it.
Perreault: All right. Well, I also concur. I think this is a really good location and a
needed location for a learning center like this. So, thank you for all the diligence that
you have put into the design.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Wilson: Madam Chair? Oh.
Yearsley: After considering all staff and applicant -- applicant and public testimony, I
move to approve file number H-2018-0108 as presented in a staff report for the hearing
date of October 18, 2018, with no modifications.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to approve the public hearing for the
Goddard School, H-2018 -- excuse me. H-2018-0108. All those in favor say aye.
Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
D. Public Hearing for Jocelyn Park Subdivision (H-2018-0100) by
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Jarron Langston, Located at the Southwest Corner of W.
Victory
Rd. and S . Meridian Rd.
1. Request: Preliminary Plat consisting of 23 building lots and 2
common lots on 13.32 acres of land in an R -8 Zoning
District
Perreault: At this time I would like to open the public hearing for Jocelyn Park
Subdivision, H-2018-0100. Let's begin with the staff report.
Beach: Good evening, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission. This is a
preliminary plat. The proximate site is near the southwest corner of Victory -- West
Victory Road and South Meridian Road. An aerial shot, so you can kind of see what's
going on in the area. The site consists of 13.32 acres of land, which is zoned R-8,
located near the southwest corner of Victory and Meridian Road, as I mentioned. The
property is surrounded by residential single family homes, which are zoned R-8 and R-
4. This property was annexed in 2013 as part of the Victory South Subdivision. The
Comprehensive Plan future land use map designation is medium density residential.
The applicant is proposing to develop a site with 23 single family residential lots and two
common lots. The gross density of the proposed plat is 1.73 dwelling units per acre,
with a net density of 2.62, with a request to step down in density, the project falls within
the target density of the medium density residential designation. The average lot size is
greater than 15,000 square feet and all the proposed lots comply with the dimensional
standards of the UDC. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed density is appropriate
for the area and compatible with the adjacent uses and zoning. All adjacent residential
uses are zoned RUT, R-8 and R-4 and the proposed zoning would be consistent. There
is a concern with -- going back to the plat. Typically we require that the maximum block
length -- if you recall we approved the Timberline Subdivision directly to the west of this
project. I can pull up the aerial again. So, this -- this property here that appears
undeveloped has been -- received preliminary plat approval and they did not require --
or did not provide a stub street, other than the one stub street to the north and so this --
this property exceeds the -- again exceeds the block length, but City Council can
approve a maximum block length up to 1,200 square feet. So, the applicant is going to
request for a -- an exception to that section of code. Access is provided via one access
to Winnipeg Street to the east and one to the west, which is West Cumberland Drive.
The applicant is proposing one additional stub street to the parcel to the north or east,
depending on how you look at it. This -- this location here. Future connectivity and to
limit direct access to West Victory Road. Sidewalks are required along all public streets
as set forth in the UDC. The applicant's proposing to construct the five foot wide
attached sidewalk along internal streets. Also required to install a five foot detached
sidewalk along the entire frontage of West Victory Road. A minimum of ten percent
qualified open space is required to be provided for the development in accord with UDC
standards. Based on the area of the plat, which is 13.32 acres, a minimum of 1.33
acres of qualified open space is required to be provided. The applicant has proposed
19.9 percent or 2.65 acres of land as open space. All developments consisting of five
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or more acres are required to provide a minimum of one site amenity. One additional
site amenity is required for each additional 20 acres. Based on the acres of 13.32, one
qualified site amenity is required. The applicant is proposing a tot lot and a gazebo.
The applicant on their landscape plan is showing the gazebo and the tot lot up in the
northern common lot up near the Ridenbaugh Canal. There is also a large common lot
to the south that will be a pond and some -- some open space in that area. Building
elevations. The applicant's provided some conceptual building elevations that appear to
meet UDC standards. Building materials appear to consist of a mix -- a variety of wood
siding, cultured stone and stucco, with architectural shingles. The homes will not
require design review, but should be constructed generally consistent with the submitted
elevations and materials. Staff did not receive any written testimony. The applicant did
provide some mockups of the play structure that they are providing near the
Ridenbaugh Canal up on their northern common lot. Staff is recommending approval
and I will stand for any questions you have.
Perreault: Do Commissioners have any questions for staff?
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: So, that -- that road that stubs to the east, are we not requiring a turnaround
on that or is that not long enough to require a turnaround or what's the status of that
one?
Beach: I believe it's long enough to require a turnaround. I know that -- it looks like
they are providing some sort of a turnaround on their own property.
Yearsley: Are we talking the one on the -- the north? Because that one actually stubs
into the --
Beach: Well, sure.
Yearsley: The other one on the north side stubs to the --
Beach: Let me look at the staff report while we -- and I will get an answer for you.
Perreault: Josh, would you like us to continue with the applicant's testimony?
Beach: Please. Please. That was my intention. Yes.
Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Would the applicant, please, come forward. State your
name and address for the record, please.
Villegas: Good evening. Victor Villegas. 141 East Carlton Avenue here in Meridian. I
am with the law firm of Borton Lakey here representing the applicant tonight. Thank you
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for having me. Just to go straight to at least one of the questions from Mr. Yearsley and
that has to do with the -- that street up there to the north. Looking at that and speaking
to one of our design individuals, our understanding is that's supposed to be possibly a --
for future connectivity to that adjoining parcel. However, if that is a concern, one of the
things that we would be willing to agree to is to have that as a condition of approval that
will -- will bulb that out for now and, then, as it opens up to -- if that site ever develops,
then, that would allow for future connectivity to that. Again, just -- just looking at the --
the staff report, as well as the site specific conditions of approval, we really have no
objections to what staff has said about this -- this project. In fact, I believe the
conclusion of the staff report is that this application exceeds the minimum standards of
the UDC and we agree with that. Looking at the -- the findings that this Commission
and the City Council need to look at in terms of recommending and ultimately approving
a preliminary plat -- first of all, the plat has to be in conformance with the
Comprehensive Plan. Commissioners, you have heard the testimony from -- from staff
and it's also indicated in the staff report itself that this application does conform with the
Comprehensive Plan. The area out there is -- I believe it's medium -- medium
density residential and this application meets that designation in the comp plan. The --
one of the other findings is that there are public services available or can be made
available adequate to accommodate the proposed development. Staff has -- has found
and recommended that public services will be available upon development of this
project. We believe that to be accurate as well. There has to be a finding that the
development will not be detrimental to the public health, safety, or general welfare. We
are not aware of any special site specific conditions that would make this application
detrimental to the public health. There is a -- one of the other findings is that the plat is
in conformance with scheduled public improvements in accord with the city's capital
improvement plan. This subdivision will not require capital improvement funds, because
the development will be providing the -- the utilities. Or will be available to it.
Interestingly, one of the -- one of the other findings is that the developer preserved
significant natural scenic or historic features. There are none. This current site used to
be a storage lagoon and so we are -- we are making this site better by -- by placing
single family detached homes on the site. There was one other comment I read in the
staff report. It had to do with the type of playground that was going to be used in the tot
lot, but as the Commission saw, there was a picture that was submitted to staff that I
think that probably, hopefully, addresses staff's concern with regard to what type of
playground structure was going to be placed on the tot lot. With that said I stand for any
questions.
Perreault: Commissioners, are there any questions for the applicant?
Yearsley: Madam Mayor?
Perreault: Mr. Yearsley.
Yearsley: I -- it was kind of hard to tell, but is there going to be a fence between the --
the open space and the -- there is a canal running through the north end of that
property, too; is that not correct?
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Beach: Commissioner Yearsley, there is. If you look at your landscape plan where my
mouse is, it shows where the fence is located.
Yearsley: Okay. And that's why I wanted to make sure. And then -- I know this is
probably beyond my scope, but given that this was a lagoon or -- is there going to be
some significant grading? Are we going to make this look like a depression? Or do --
do we have a plan for what they are wanting to do on the grading of this, given that it's
in a depression?
Villegas: Commissioner Yearsley, I -- I would hazard to guess that since it is -- it looks
like a depression now, that I'm sure the city engineers are going to require that -- that
the property be brought to grade in order to -- to have an adequate base to build these
single family dwellings.
Yearsley: That's all I have. Thank you.
Perreault: Anymore questions for the applicant? Okay. Thank you.
Villegas: Thank you.
Perreault: Is there anyone here to testify?
Johnson: Madam Chair, we had one sign in wishing to testify. Kimberly Juarez.
Perreault: Please come forward. Do you see Kimberly?
Johnson: Yeah. She was signed in for multiples. I'm not sure if she's physically here.
Perreault: Okay. If she's not present is there anyone else in the room that would like to
testify? Okay.
Yearsley: I guess, Madam Chair, did we find out what we are doing on that cul-de-sac
or was that going to be a cul-de-sac or what?
Beach: So, Commissioner Yearsley, the -- the staff report as you see in front of you
does not have that condition in there, but fire has indicated that anything over 150 feet
requires there to be a turnaround. So, they will have to accommodate that somehow.
Yearsley: Okay.
Beach: It's about 218 feet.
Yearsley: So, there is a -- there is a condition that they have to meet. Okay.
Perreault: Thank you. At this time can I get a motion to close the public hearing?
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Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I moved to close the public hearing for H-2018-0100.
Holland: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearing. All those in
favor say aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley. You know, this is actually a -- a nice in-fill project to
finally get that whole area kind of cleaned up and the mess that it had gone through.
So, I think they have done a pretty decent job making it look good and, then, trying to
meet the look of that area. I know we caused the condition for the longer block length,
so I -- I think we recommend that that be approved through City Council. But it's not our
condition to approve. But overall I think the houses look really nice and I think it will be
a really nice subdivision.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: Just to add one point. I'm in support, too. I just -- I appreciate the open space.
I think we are scrutinizing things like that and have been, rightly so. We can be a little
more selective in our requirements and I appreciate stuff like that. Like the open space
and -- and I think -- I agree it's a good project.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I echo the same comments. I think they have -- they have done a nice job of
including some open space, providing some -- some good future planning here and I
don't see any concerns. I would like to -- I don't know if we need to make a note in our
motion that they have that bulb out or if that's something that would just be taken care of
by the requirements for fire.
Beach: You're asking about the -- the turnaround for the 150 foot road section? If you -
- add that as a condition if you would like to. I think that's probably not a -- not a terrible
idea. We don't have that as a specific condition, but I know that the fire department
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holds those -- those -- the developers to that standard. If you would like I can pull up
the staff report and you can make that a condition if you want to, just to make sure our
bases are covered.
Perreault: I think it's a good idea.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I believe -- if we just make a motion, you will make a note to add that in the
future?
Beach: Absolutely. Yeah.
Holland: Okay.
Beach: Tell me what you want me to do.
Perreault: Commissioner Holland, would you like to make a motion?
Holland: Sure. After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to
recommend approval to City Council of file number H-2018-0100 as presented in the
staff report for the hearing date of October 18th, 2018, with the following modification:
That we amend the staff report in the conditions and mitigation measures, Section 8,
1.1.9, that the -- there would be a bulb out at the --
Yearsley: Northeast.
Holland: -- the northeast corner of the parcel where the road comes out.
Yearsley: Second.
Perreault: Okay. It has been moved and seconded to approve Item No. H-2018-0100
with modifications to the staff report. All those in favor aye? Any opposed? Motion
carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
E. Public Hearing for Rockbury Townhomes (H-2018-0091) by
Michael Nigh, Located North of W. Chinden Blvd. on the West
side on N. Tree Farm Way
1. Request: Preliminary Plat consisting of 47 residential lots
and 8 common lots on 6.23 acres of land in an R -15 zoning
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district
Perreault: At this time we will open the public hearing for Rockbury Townhomes, H-
2018-0091, and let's begin with the staff report.
Beach: Before you is another preliminary plat. This site consists of 6.23 acres of land,
which is zoned R-15, located at 4373 West Treecrest Drive. The property is surrounded
by residential uses to the west, north, and east and a future church to the south, zoned
C-N. The property was annexed into the city in 2006 as Tree Farm Subdivision and
received preliminary plat approval in 2017. The Comprehensive Plan future land use
map designation is medium density residential. The applicant proposes to develop the
site with 47 single family residential lots and eight common lots. The gross density is
5.8 dwelling units per acre, with a net density of 12.4, which falls within the target
density of the medium density residential designation. Gross density for the subdivision
is 5.8 as I said. Staff is of the opinion that the proposed density is appropriate for the
area and compatible with the adjacent uses and zoning. Also compatible with the
conceptual development plan that was approved with the development agreement back
when the property was annexed in 2006. Development of the site is required to comply
with the dimensional standards listed in the UDC for the R-15 district. The average lot
size is 3,527 square feet. All of the proposed lots comply with the dimensional
standards. Vehicular access is proposed for this site. One access to North Tree Farm
Way to the east and an emergency access to the north -- or to West Treecrest Drive.
That applicant is proposing to construct a private street to provide access and
circulation within the development. The UDC requires private streets to be constructed
within -- within -- within an easement and have a travel lane width of 24 or 26 feet. No
allowed parking as determined by the fire marshal. The proposed private streets are all
internal to the development or are to be constructed as a combination of 25 and 27 foot
street sections. The applicant is proposing to share the private street with pedestrian
and vehicles. Staff initially had concerns with that and what you see before you here is
the applicant's changes to some of the conditions of approval from the staff report. I will
go through those in just a second here for you. Initially there was concern about
parking. The applicant has provided some additional parking here internally. Three
spaces, plus an ADA stall close to their community structure, a fountain and a plaza
area for their project. Also included a sidewalk around a central -- see where my mouse
is here. So, you can see it's a combination of on-street pedestrian connectivity and,
then, you can see where my mouse is, a sidewalk going back across the street and
there is a four foot sidewalk that goes around the entire center area of the development,
as well as several pedestrian connections out to sidewalks that will be constructed
along Treecrest and Tree Haven Way and several -- as I said, several -- it's a private
street, so there will be gates and they are required to have pedestrian access to those
gates as well. Ten percent qualified open space is required, again, for this development
based on the area of the plat, which is 6.23 acres, a minimum of 0.62 acres of qualified
open space are required. The applicant is providing 0.66 acres or 11 percent open
space. Site amenities include a plaza, water feature, and a community structure. Also
accommodates mail. Building elevations have been submitted by the applicant. Pretty
consistent mix. A variety of wood siding with architectural shingles. The applicant will
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be required to submit a certificate of zoning compliance application for any required
parking as shown on their site plan, as well as administrative design review for any
attached single family homes. The majority of the structures are attached -- I shouldn't
say the majority. All of them are attached. There is a combination of two and four
structures -- or single family attached homes connected. The R-15, the side setback is
three feet. Initially staff had concerns about the number of the ability of -- and the ability
of guests to park within the development. Even if it was a public street, the majority of
the structures -- there are driveways, so there is not a whole lot of area to park, because
it is a private street and with the narrow width of the streets, the fire marshal has
restricted it to -- it's all just a fire lane. There is no parking anywhere within the
development, exception of on driveways, so there is two cars acquired in a -- and each
individual parcel is required to have two stalls in a -- in a garage, plus two in a driveway,
and we have asked the applicant to make a proposal for additional parking and so they
have done that with these four stalls. Have not received any written testimony on this
application. Staff is recommending approval. They have made some -- some strides to
make some improvements since the staff report was written. There are still some
concerns about parking into the development as far as staff is concerned, but we are
still recommending approval. I will stand for any questions.
Perreault: Any questions for staff?
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: Josh, did I hear that you're -- they are proposing four foot sidewalks?
Beach: Correct. Just to further explain that, we don't require sidewalks with private
streets, so they are -- they are proposing four foot.
Yearsley: I just find four feet is really hard to walk side by side with somebody, so that's
-- that's my only concern with the four foot sidewalks.
Perreault: Any other questions for staff? Okay. Would the applicant, please, come
forward. Please state your name and address for the record.
Nigh: Good evening, Commissioners. My name is Michael Nigh. Address is 904
Madrid Avenue, Torrance, California. 90501. Just wanted to give a quick overview.
Staff has already done an excellent job in detailing this project, but as a -- just a point of
reference, a quick overview. The Rockbury North, which is this project, is a planned
development, consisting of 47 single family dwellings. The project is designed as a
gated, fully maintain community, with on-site amenities, as well as access to Spurwing
Country Club by means of their lifestyle membership. The on-site amenities include a
water feature, plaza, clubhouse, dog walk park area and walking paths surrounding the
development. The secure interior is maintained through wrought iron fencing around
the perimeter and between the units. Walking path access gates are located on all four
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sides of the development, as well as through the -- where they drive the cars. The
interior of the development is accessed on the east side by the main vehicular gate.
The subdivision will be maintained by a homeowner's association. Rockbury has been
in preliminary discussions with Spurwing HOA and we anticipate that Rockbury North
will becoming a sub association of that -- of that HOA -- of the master Spurwing HOA
and we believe that this will help create a continuity between all of the subdivisions
there in the Spurwing development. The design and the structural feel of the project is
currently in development, with preliminary design elevations, which we have included
with our package submitted to the city. The design is being created to fit well within and
complement the overall structural feel and architecture of the community at large. The
townhome concept isn't new to the Treasure Valley market, but in this area it's relatively
underdeveloped. We believe that this design and concept adds additional housing
options, while maintaining the quality and integrity already established in the north
Meridian location. A well developed combination of wood siding, stone, stucco, metal
railing, trees, trellis, porches, rooftop patios, interior site lighting and extensive
landscaping will help create luxurious feel of our planned community and at this point I
will take any questions you may.
Perreault: Are there any questions for the applicant?
Yearsley: Have you built many of these elsewhere?
Nigh: No. Our other projects have been smaller in scope. We have developed some
out in Nampa is our other project, but that was more of a multi-family apartment quad
type living. So, this is relatively new to us, but yes.
Yearsley: Okay.
Perreault: I have a few questions. Regarding the three foot setbacks, was that -- can
you give some more -- three foot setbacks, there are a few communities in this area that
have those, but they are -- they are pretty rare and so we always, as a Commission --
well, I shouldn't say always. We tend to have some caution with those and so I'm just
curious is -- was that for the intention of getting a certain number of units in or -- you
know. And -- and also how are the eaves going to work and -- can you just give a little
more information about that, please?
Nigh: Yeah. Actually, I have got Pete Rockwell with R.S. Rockwell Architects here. He
can address any of the architectural part of that. And Leslie is here with Breckon Land
Design who can address some of the land issues.
Perreault: Okay.
Yearsley: So, I'm -- I guess before he comes up, Madam Chair?
Perreault: Okay.
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Yearsley: So, I just want to clarify that you're proposing for four foot sidewalks on the
interior. Would you have any heartburn to go to five foot sidewalks?
Nigh: Well, if -- if you look on the site plan, what we have established, in addition to the
four foot sidewalk, which is an additional amenity for people to access is we have a -- a
paver section, it's beside the road, for additional access that because of the variation in
-- from asphalt to pavers creates a walk area, even crosswalks through the
development that can be delineated as additional access walking areas. So, we feel
like between the two of them it would create enough access, plus designating the areas
of ten mile an hour speed limit will -- and it's a relatively smaller -- it's not -- it's not very
large. So, with those two we believe that it will give people sufficient access from
outside in and also circulation within the development.
Perreault: So, you won't have a curb?
Nigh: Right.
Perreault: Okay. And before he comes up, as far as the parking goes, staff had -- had
mentioned their concerns about parking. Is there any possibility or interest in -- instead
of having the three spots with the ADA spot there next to the plaza, maybe bringing that
part in just a little bit and putting some parallel parking around that section?
Nigh: We can provide additional parking and Leslie maybe able to address this with the
50 by 100 space required for the open --
Perreault: Uh-huh.
Nigh: -- we had -- we slid the parking up into -- by the clubhouse. She may be able to
address if we are able to provide additional nose-in parking versus parallel parking --
Perreault: Okay.
Nigh: -- in that area. We have also -- I spoke with Josh Beach earlier today about
providing additional parking in the -- it would be the northwest corner --
Perreault: Uh-huh.
Nigh: -- we have -- and the question that -- at that point was can we provide that off of
what is essentially a private drive, which he's indicated that we can. So, we can provide
some additional parking there. We have a dog park, a walk area established for that
right now, but if -- if we need to we can provide some additional spaces there.
Perreault: And you feel like you can still stay in with -- within the ten percent open
space requirement --
Nigh: Yes.
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Perreault: -- doing that? Okay. And, then, can you just give a -- a little further
explanation of the use of that clubhouse.
Nigh: The clubhouse is a -- it's a meeting area for people that live in the development.
So, if you have a family over, a large group that you want to do an outdoor barbecue or
just a place to meet, it will have restrooms and a kitchen --
Perreault: Okay.
Nigh: -- kitchenette. So, that's a place that people can have family get togethers, a little
meeting room and it will be run by the HOA.
Perreault: Okay.
Nigh: So -- yeah.
Perreault: Yeah. Is there -- what's the time we have left for the applicant? It's not
showing up on my screen.
Johnson: When you start questions I stop the time.
Perreault: Oh. Okay. Okay.
Johnson: Whatever you want.
Perreault: If he would like to come forward that would be great.
Rockwell: Commissioners, my name is Pete Rockwell. I live at 664 East Parkway
Court, Boise, Idaho. On the question of the -- the three foot setback, it was a
combination of things. So, this is basically a townhouse development, so it's groups of
single family homes gathered together in groups of twos, threes, and fours. So, those
are, you know, squished together and, then, there is -- there is three feet on each of the
other lots. So, we are six feet apart in probably about three or four locations only in this
whole 47 deal. The other -- the two walkways north and south have got walkways that
are 12 to 15 feet wide and then -- plus an entry there is more space, too. So, I don't
think that the three foot setback is a problem on this anywhere. As far as eaves, I think
we are allowed, you know, 18 inches into that setback. Have to check that out, make
sure I'm accurate on that, so that's how we would handle those. Anything else?
Perreault: Any additional questions? Okay. Thank you very much.
Rockwell: Thank you.
Perreault: At this time we will take public testimony. Is there anyone signed up?
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Johnson: The only sign in was Kimberly Juarez.
Perreault: Please come forward.
Albert: Good evening. I'm Jane Albert, 6628 North Salvia Way in Meridian in Spurwing
Greens. I have a couple of questions, more than just comments. I -- I have some
concern about -- in the project folder there was -- there was something called color
renderings and that's very different than what's being shown tonight in the application
on the staff report. It doesn't show elevations even close to what we are seeing here
and it also shows -- I am concerned about also this -- the clubhouse building. I'm not
sure where that shows on the site plan that's being shown here. Also on the color
renderings there -- this is referred to as Spurwing Townhomes. So, I have some
questions about that and I don't know how to ask the applicant or the developer.
Perreault: The applicant will have time to come back up and answer.
Albert: All right. I also had a question about the landscape buffer on Tree Haven Way.
What that's -- what that's going to look like and what the size of that is. When I was
looking through the application I saw that the fire department -- I have a question on the
fire department sign off. The last communication I see is in August of 2017 and I didn't
see an agency comment and they were talking about changing the radiuses and such,
so I'm just curious about that. Also I spoke before the Spurwing homeowners
association meeting last night about this project and asked if it was -- if they had
approached us about joining the master association and the answer was -- actually was
that they had not talked to them -- or talked about coming into the master association
and I don't believe that if so that these elevations would meet the architectural
requirements. So, those are my concerns.
Perreault: Okay. Thank you. I think between the staff and the applicant we probably
can answer a good majority of those. Is there anyone else here that would like to
testify? Please come forward.
Karnes: Good evening. My name is Susan Karnes. I live at 5556 South Graphite Way
here in Meridian. I apologize for my voice. I have got a little laryngitis. We have a
concern about this project. I have a family member who recently moved into a similar
project in Boise and here you have a community center planned in a gated community,
but where are people going to park? When we have a family gathering we have 20
people in our family and I think this is scant parking. I think it's totally inadequate. And I
say that having tried to negotiate her new living situation in Boise and I think we really
set the bar very low if we are willing to accept 11 percent green space in such a
desirable part of our city. So, I don't think that the green space is adequate. I certainly
don't think that parking is either and those are my concerns.
Perreault: Thank you.
Karnes: Thank you.
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Perreault: Did I see someone over -- please come forward.
Lupher: Hi. My name is Shelley Lupher. I live at 7030 North Sienna Glen Way in
Meridian. A few points I wanted to make as a resident that lives near this development,
I did read Mindy's report about the traffic. I was a little concerned that a traffic study is
not required, specifically because of, A, the approved Costco development. The fact
that this development -- or this intersection, rather, is already approximately 20 percent
over the planned capacity. The trips that will be generated by this development, even
though it is small, represent ten percent of the capacity that was of that intersection as it
was designed and we are already way over that and, then, adding the church on top of
that creates additional traffic problems. In analyzing the church traffic and getting out of
that intersection, we estimate that leaving that intersection on a Sunday after church lets
out will take 38 minutes to get out of that intersection to clear all of that area, because
there is only about seven cars that get to turn left at that intersection at one time. So,
it's a big concern. Thirty-eight minutes is life or death for someone who is having an
ambulance type situation. I was surprised to see these elevations I guess they are
called, that significantly vary from what was originally presented to homeowners. These
are extremely bland, boring. We actually showed them at our board meeting last night
and someone thought that they looked like tract homes or low income housing. So, this
does not definitely meet with the architectural standards that are in our community at
this time. I have a concern about this -- basically it's three long straight streets in this
neighborhood. The longest one on the south side is 630 something feet, which if you
can imagine in your head is the length of two football fields long of houses that are
exactly lined up with one another. That is monotonous and repetitive and people don't
respond well to that type of architecture in their environment. It actually is a negative.
In addition, I didn't see anything from the fire department report or e-mail exchange that
said that -- how are they going to respond -- if you say, well, I'm in the gray townhouse
with the white door, how are they going to find it in all of this monotonous repetitive
building. Additionally concerned about the green space being eaten up -- and I see that
my time is out, so I will end. I think that at this point there are just too many unknowns
and too many other things to do research and verify to make an approval. Thank you.
Perreault: Is there anyone else that would like to testify? Okay. Can I get a motion to
close the public hearing? I'm sorry. My apologies. Would the applicant like to come
back and respond, please?
Nigh: Yes. Thank you. In regards to -- there were several comments made about the
renderings of the initial brochure. When we had our initial meeting with the
neighborhood about a year ago we had some preliminary drawings that were
distributed to -- as some mockups of what was happening in the plaza and just very
basic drawings of the buildings. They were more like placeholders. Since that time we
have had some redesign done by architect and that's what you see before you right
now. So, that's the -- the updated from what was originally expressed by the concerned
people, so --
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Perreault: Do you know about how long ago those were submitted to staff? How long
have they been available for the public to view?
Nigh: Since August.
Perreault: August.
Nigh: Yeah. Since we submitted our package the first of August those elevations have
been available. It's the same ones.
Perreault: Okay.
Nigh: Another comment was made about Spurwing Townhomes. Again, that was a
placeholder a year ago when we were starting the process. We didn't have a name,
which we still don't for the development, so we were just -- we had just put a
placeholder name on there and it was called Spurwing Townhomes just as a
designation of what was -- where it was going and what it was versus an actual name
for the product. So, it will not have either of those names in the signage that ultimately
ends up at the -- at the development. One question was on the landscaping on Tree
Haven Way. There is a minimum of a ten foot landscape buffer from back of sidewalk.
So, that's the minimum size that would be developed on the landscaping, so just to
answer that question. We weren't sure what size that was. As far as traffic goes, yes,
our development is small. It definitely will have an impact. We have already been
notified that we will not be given any building permits until the road on Black Cat is
opened up, so the people will be able to have an additional access point to -- to
Chinden. It will be not only off Tree Farm Way, but also off of Black Cat. And in
regards to the church, we are really not part of that project. We don't really have
anything to do with it. They have to deal with their own traffic and when they come to
submit for their -- for their project. Adequate parking. When we receive notification
from staff that additional parking would be required or requested, we didn't have a
number, so we didn't know exactly what we were dealing with as far as spaces. So, as
we mentioned before we do have some additional area that we can expand for
additional parking needs and we can work with staff on that to make sure that they have
additional spaces within the -- within the development itself. As far as the fire
department access and notification, all the buildings they are -- all the units are single
family. They are addressed just like any other home is and so I don't think the
identification of that -- they have their own emergency access if needed that they can
access the site and they will be able to easily determine which house they need to
respond to. I think that was all the questions that -- unless you think of something else
that needs to be addressed.
Perreault: Can you also address the concern regarding the master subdivision not
being aware that Rockbury would like to join?
Nigh: I don't know -- we have been working with Joy, who is the representative -- what's
Joy's last name? Jones. Joy Jones. So, we have had quite a few discussions with her
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in regards to that in actually formatting and developing the agreement for our
development. So, maybe it hasn't gotten to all the people yet, don't know, because it's
still at the HOA level, so --
Perreault: Okay. Commissioners, do you have any more questions for the applicant?
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: So, I have been kind of mulling over the parking and -- and what is -- what is
a decent number and trying to pinpoint kind of what a -- what a good range is and going
back and forth. I -- would -- would you be amenable to like .2 parking stalls per unit?
That would put you about ten total parking spaces.
Nigh: I believe that will put us -- if we take -- if we do ten that will put us over -- as far as
our open space it will reduce that even more. We do have parking on Tree Haven Way
to the east. So, there is parking out there if need be.
Beach: Commissioner Yearsley, if I could quickly, the required open space is -- we call
it qualified open space and it has to be 50 by 100 anyway. So, the area over here on
the northwest doesn't count for qualified open space anyway --
Yearsley: Uh-huh.
Beach: -- and so I think that not -- kind of eyeballing it, you really could get five or six
parking spaces in that area and if it was straight on and back into that common
driveway I think that probably gets you most of the way to ten.
Yearsley: Okay.
Nigh: Probably get us pretty close.
Perreault: Any other questions for the applicant? Okay.
Nigh: Thank you.
Perreault: Thank you.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I move to close the public hearing on H-2018-0091.
Holland: Second.
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Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearing for Roxbury
Townhomes, H-2018-0091. All those in favor say aye. None opposed. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I think one of the biggest concerns noted is -- is the parking and also the open
space. I always hate when you have to get rid of more green space for parking. I wish
that there could just be a way of adding more green space and more parking, but,
obviously, that's not something we can necessarily control too much. I like having the
green space in the middle of the plaza, because I think it makes it nice for all the
residents to be able to access it evenly, rather than having it on just one side of the
parcel. That's my initial thought for now. I might have more later.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: You know, I think this is not a bad mix for this area, understanding the area
that it's at. I agree, I do like the open space and -- but, yeah, I am concerned and I don't
want to put a burden on the other neighbors by having them park on Tree Haven is -- is
my concern. I have been going through while he has been talking of different iterations
on what percentage -- you know, what -- what made perfect sense and, you know, I just
gut feel I think that .2 is not a bad -- still I would be curious to see what your thoughts is,
because that puts it about 9.4. So, it would be ten -- ten spaces, so -- and I think he
could probably work some of that in there as possible.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I mean I think that's reasonable. I don't know, Bill usually is the advocate for
more parking and he excels at that, but I think -- I mean I think that that's -- I think that's
a reasonable compromise and, again, sometimes you got to make trade offs.
Perreault: I would like to see an extra spot or two there in the -- in the middle area to
kind of even it out and not have it all clustered on the one end. Be nice to even add
some additional parking farther -- farther to the east, but -- but if there was a few spots
added there in the center and, then, five or six spots added on the west side, I think that
would accommodate nicely. Three foot setbacks always give me pause, even -- even
though technically they can be applied for in the R-15 zone, they just -- they do. I'm
curious my fellow Commissioners' thoughts on it in this application.
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Yearsley: Madam Chair. I -- I agree. The three foot setbacks are -- are really tight.
However, we live next door to the Sobe Subdivision and they have the three foot
setbacks and, you know, for the most part it -- it's -- it's not bad. I mean it -- you know,
it's not the greatest thing to look at, but, you know, it does have enough of a break there
that, you know, you can kind of separate between the different homes and so --
Perreault: Is that with -- just with a single levels there or with the --
Yearsley: They put two stories in there as well, so --
Perreault: Okay.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I think my -- my comment with the three foot setbacks -- I tend to -- I agree,
too. I like to have more setbacks, because I like that more space between it when
you're wanting to walk between properties. When you're looking at a townhome product
I think it's less critical, because they are already attached units, but since they are not
detached units I don't have as much pause for concern. I still always like to see a little
bit more setbacks when we can.
Perreault; Yeah. I agree. I also agree with Commissioner Yearsley's comments
regarding not parking on Tree Haven. That -- that street is -- is already very full and I
don't -- I don't think we should add any additional expectation to that. Okay. Josh, were
you looking at something regarding the fire department comments -- agency
comments?
Beach: The only real concern they had was making sure that it was signed no parking,
fire lane. Other than that they didn't really have a concern with access. We got
comments from them on response times and resources available and -- the majority of
the concern was just making sure that it was signed appropriately for no parking.
Perreault: Okay.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I moved to
recommend approval to the City Council of file number H-2018-0091 as presented in
the staff report for the hearing date of October 18th, 2018, with the following
modification: That the off -- or offsite parking or off-street parking within this compound
have to -- meet a .2 per lot or per home parking requirement and that's all.
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Wilson: Second.
Holland: Madam Chair? Commissioner Yearsley, one clarification question for you on
your motion. Do we want to have them revise this map and have that for Council for
consideration?
Yearsley: I think they -- they need to have that so they can show that they can meet
that condition, yes.
Wilson: Second.
Beach: Quickly. Staff's recommendation is just -- if you want ten just, just have them
provide ten parking spaces. That's cleaner and you don't have to worry about arithmetic
errors or whatever.
Yearsley: All right. I think ten would be good. I will make my -- make that change to
ten and have those -- those site plans revised to show those ten space before City
Council.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: Okay. It has been moved and seconded to approve Rockbury Townhomes,
H-2018-0091, with stated modifications. All those in favor. None opposed. Motion
carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
F. Public Hearing for Residential District Naming Convention
Text
Amendment (H-2018-0059) by DevCo Development LLC
1. Request: A Text Amendment to Change the Naming
Convention of the Residential Districts of R-2, R-4, R-8, R-15
and R-40 to R-A, R-B, R-C, R-D, R-D and R-E, and Modify
Other Related Sections in Chapters 1 - 3 of the Unified
Development Code ( UDC) to Coincide with the Proposed
Naming Convention
Perreault: Next we will open the public hearing for Residential District Naming
Convention Text Amendment, H-2018-0059, and begin with the staff report.
Parsons: That was a mouth full. Good evening, Members of the Commission. The last
item on the agenda this evening is the UDC text amendment before you. This request
is actually coming before you from a private request. It's not a staff-initiated request as
you typically see. Just for the members in the audience -- and the one thing that I would
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like to point out to the Commission this evening is staff is continuing to receive public
testimony on this application even during the hearing as it's going on now. So, I just
want to share that with you, that there is -- this is a hot topic this evening, so stay tuned
and we will try to give you those updated numbers. I don't know exactly where we are
at now, but maybe the clerk can chime in and let us know how many people have
signed up in opposition to this particular project. First of all, I want the Commission and
the audience to really focus on the summary table that's before you and the reason why
this slide came about was the same reason that we are talking about this requested
change before you this evening. In the past there has been some confusion in the way
our zoning ordinance is being applied and what I mean by that is if you look at the
zoning designations on here -- so, we have -- in our zoning ordinance we have a low
density residential zone, a medium high density residential zone, et cetera, et cetera.
But we do -- what we do on the map is we have an abbreviated version for those type --
those zoning districts that are in our -- are in our zoning ordinance and that correlates to
an R-2 and R-4 and R-8 zoning district. Well, a few years ago our zoning ordinance did
have a maximum -- maximum density requirement in our code. That came before this
body and ultimately went to be for City Council and that density requirement --
maximum density requirement was removed from the code and we wanted the comp
plan to guide density for our city, because that's the vision document that we use when
we look at these development applications. So, keep that in context. So, when we --
when we look at those areas or when they come in, we have to make those findings that
they are consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. This is something that we have
talked about for a long time and so this graphic that's before you was kind of what
spurred that conversation or -- or that change. Now, we realize once we have made
that UDC text amendment and took out that density requirement of the code, that the R-
2, R-4, R-8 could still imply density and we had talked about at some point meeting with
our UDC focus group and having a larger discussion with our community partners. That
was -- that's -- those conversations have occurred, but not -- they are not vetted enough
to come back and bring it forward to you. So, the applicant was willing to go ahead and
do that and have that conversation with -- with you this evening. So, really, the
application before you this evening is twofold. There is actually two requests that are
being proposed to be amended. One has to do, again, with the map symbol of our
residential zoning districts and how they displayed on our -- our zoning maps and how
they are defined in our code -- or not really defined, but displayed in our code. And the
other one is changing dimensional standards for R-15 zoning districts. As you look
through the staff report, this one simple change affects multiple areas in our staff report
and multiple -- or multiple sections in our zoning ordinance and so even though it's one -
- on paper it looks like it's an easy change to modify that, it isn't, you have to go through
every section of code to make sure that everywhere it says R-2, R-4, R-8, R-15, it has
to be changed in a 300 page document and so the staff brings that up a little bit longer
as I continue to work on it. So, I'm not going to highlight all of the changes as part of the
UDC text amendment, but I can tell you from the public testimony that we are receiving -
- this seems to be the crux of the conversations on what we are hearing and the main
focus for why the neighbors are concerned is because we are in the middle of a
Comprehensive Plan update and a lot of the residents want to be part of that process
and they are part of that process giving us feedback. So, I do want to go on record and
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say that this particular change doesn't affect the update to the Comprehensive Plan, this
is merely to try to clean up something that we wanted to clean up a few years ago and
just haven't had a chance to do that, at least on staff's time frame. We had always
envisioned coming back to this, we just weren't ready to do it yet. But the applicant,
again, was ready to do that. So, again, what the applicant is proposing this evening
with the R -- to change R-2, R-4, R-8, R-15, R-40 to an R-A, R-B, R-C, R-D, R-E
designation. We don't think that's the right way to go either and that way -- that's the
reason why in my staff report staff recommended the changes that you see before you
on the screen. If you look at the other zoning designations below our residential zones,
you can see that this is in alignment with many other districts that we have in our zoning
ordinance. So, again, we realize there needs to be a change, I'm not advocating this is
the best change at this time, but what I'm saying is this is the most consistent change
and the one that makes the most sense if the Commission and Council decide to
approve this change and that's why we have that R-LD, R-MLD, it's consistent, again,
with the rest of the zoning districts. The other item that I would like to point out to you
as part of this change is something you should take into consideration. So, I did a quick
query in our GIS map and realizing that we have over 39,000 parcels that are zoned R-
4 -- R-2, R-4, R-8 all the way through to R-40 zone and that number continually
increases as plats and subdivisions record, we get more and more of these lots. That
communication has not been shared with those residents and the reason why is
because typically when you go through a zoning ordinance amendment the code does
not require that we notify residents and it does not require a neighborhood meeting, but
the fact that we have this many neighbors here testifying -- or citizens here testifying
and advocating to you this evening, I'm very impressed that we have that much turnout
for a UDC text amendment, because typically we don't. So, that's why the process is a
little bit different than when you have a parcel specific application before you. So, keep
that in mind. We have -- and the Ada County Assessor's Office is also going to have to
change all of those zoning districts for those particular parcels as well and as I
mentioned to you, we are in a Comprehensive Plan update as well. So, just keep that in
mind. But, again, this is meant to align with how it's written in a Comprehensive Plan,
too, and should not affect that if this were to go into effect. Now, the other request is
specific to our R-15 dimensional standards and currently -- I just want to give you a little
bit of context on this particular change and why it came forward from the applicant. As
you recall this was continued out for several months and the main purpose was to get
this one caught up and marry up with the residential name change or the maps, then,
will change that I just shared with you. Essentially what has happened is the applicant
came before you, got approval of an East Ridge project if you recall and Movado Village
and what that is is a cluster development with central -- space in a centralized amenity
package. So, the yards themselves, the homes that are built on those lots don't
necessarily have any yards per se, all of those amenities and open space are
centralized for all residents to use and all the maintenance of that particular
development are maintained by one HOA, but what we realized is as they came forward
and try to get building permits they realized that the code didn't really speak to how to
apply the setbacks to developments to access a public street and/or common
driveways. Additionally, what staff has done is when someone comes in with a common
driveway code tells us that we get an exhibit, they are supposed to show us how those
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homes fit on that lot to ensure that those homes meet establish setbacks of that R-15
district. Again, we found out that there is a little bit of a difference of opinion in
interpretation in how that is applied and that's why the applicant thought they wanted to
bring this forward and just clarify on the record and in code how they think these
setbacks should be applied. So, the graphic before you this evening shows the new
setbacks that the applicant's proposing. Again, these aren't currently in code, this is
something that we discussed with the applicant at length and spent a lot of staff time on
it, to be quite honest with you, with the applicant and trying to find a solution. So, a
couple things is those particular projects that they have had entitled currently and are
under construction and constructing homes as we currently speak, those particular
projects all have private streets and they are gated communities. So, these specific
changes, again, wouldn't apply to an R-15 development that was a typical traditional
subdivision. So, if it was a 5,000 square foot lot and it was still zoned R-15, he would
still have the front yard, two side yards and a rear yard. These proposed changes are
mainly meant to coincide with those specific developments that have access to a
common driveway and/or a private street. The applicant did provide an exhibit trying to
demonstrate how that would work and staff is also recommending some changes to
what they are proposing for you this evening. So, here on -- the graphic on the left-
hand side shows how the -- the setbacks would apply as proposed by the applicant.
You can see a zero -- a zero foot setback or a three foot setback. Again, they are
asking for a one and a half foot setback for the homes as a -- from the common
driveway and, then, anything along a private street would still be ten feet, which is
consistent with an R-8 and R-15 zone today. So, again, as far as street frontage, they
are still -- they are fine with a ten foot setback. That's -- there is not a change there. I
think that's a -- that's a good thing to have. Staff's concerned with -- and, again, they
have given you some aerial photography to kind of demonstrate what that would look
like in the real world. What we are concerned with with some of these setbacks -- and I
think we have called that out in the staff report -- is that currently the City of Meridian
does not have a drainage -- a drainage ordinance in effect. We rely on the building
code to tell us how to handle that. The applicant hasn't really showed staff how this
would work with a three foot setback, if it was the entire boundary of the development
and so just bring that up to you, we don't know how that's going to work and, hopefully,
the applicant can elaborate a little bit more for you on that and what we are also not in
favor of is the one and a half foot setback from the common driveway. You can see in
that lower right-hand corner here you can see where that house does project closely to
that common driveway. Now, keep in mind their proposal is not to have the entire
facade be one and a half feet from the common drive, their proposal is for no more than
50 percent of the facade be located within that setback, that one and a half foot setback.
Staff is recommending that it -- it just be a three foot setback in its entirety. The other --
the other things that I want to point out to you is the requirement for the 12 foot along
the perimeter. So, for example, those -- the applicant, if they were going to have these
cluster homes, anything that was along the perimeter or adjacent to a single family
home development or traditional subdivision, would still have that adequate separation
and setback from those adjacent residents. So, it would transition or provide that blend.
Also mention to you that as part of this amendment, because staff -- when we were
working with the applicant we were concerned with really no yards for anyone to --
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private open space. I have mentioned to you there is an amenity package -- there is
central open space. How are these -- how are these folks supposed to enjoy their living
space and still have some privacy and so the applicant did indulge staff and added a
footnote here that they said every home that takes advantage of those setbacks would
have to provide a minimum 120 square foot patio and that's pretty consistent with our
multi-family standards to require that as part of that approval. However, it's only 80
square feet for multi-family development. So, the applicant stepped up and actually
proposed more patio open -- private open space, if you will, for the single family homes.
And I would mention to you -- and these are some of the conversations that we had
with the applicant as well -- is the amount of staff time that it would take to verify that
every one of these homes are meeting this requirement. So, that will take -- if these are
approved that will put additional time on staff to review this to make sure that they are
meeting all of this criteria. And, lastly, staff is also recommending one additional
change to the applicant's proposal and that is that when they actually depict a zero lot
line that they actually build an attached home or -- at that -- at that property boundary.
We don't want the applicant to just pick and choose which setback that applies their
development, it's either a three foot setback or a zero foot setback with attached homes
and that's what footnote number five shows in this graphic. So, again, with all the public
testimony -- I know the last time I looked, before I came in, I saw at least 45 -- at least
part of the public record had signed up in opposition of this particular application. I don't
know if Chris has anything that he would like to add before I conclude my presentation
and stand for any questions.
Johnson: Madam Chair, Commissioners, 120 people signed in in opposition. Five
indicated wishing to testify, which, of course, you will get to, but there were 120 and,
then, e-mails have continued to come in throughout the evening as well.
Parsons: So, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, again, staff is recommending
approval of the texts amendment with the modifications in Exhibit -- in Section 6 of the
new -- new staff report and I would stand for any questions you have.
Holland: Sorry. Just one question. On that last strip that you were showing us, all of
the items that are in blue are what's proposed additions, it's -- none of those things are
in the code currently; is that correct?
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, the items in blue are proposal
from the applicant, yes, and they are not in code. The red our staff's recommended
changes.
Holland: Okay. Thank you.
Perreault: All right. Would the applicant, please, come forward.
Bailey: Madam Chair, Commissioners, My name is Laren Bailey. My address -- work
address is 4824 West Fairview Avenue. Good evening and thank you for hearing our
request tonight. Do we have a PowerPoint? Sorry, I thought we had it set up. I don't
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need them for the first part, so I'm just going to go ahead and continue while they get it
going. As staff indicated, we are discussing two different issues tonight, both related to
the city code. Even though both are dealing with zoning designations, they are -- they
are really two separate requests. So, I'm going to cover the zoning code name change
first and -- and I don't know how you want to handle it, if you want to do questions then
or if you want to wait until the end, but I will pause and talk about that. Before you
tonight we are really just trying to add clarity to an otherwise confusing area of the city
code. As staff indicated, you know, a lot of letters have -- have come in from residents
and I think it just goes to show how confused folks are and we are not trying to make
this more difficult, we are trying to find a solution and we want to talk about the ways in
which the Meridian City Comprehensive Plan and city code work in conjunction with one
another, but it's important to note that they are separate documents and tonight we are
really focused on the code, not on a Comprehensive Plan, which is -- which is being
updated. So, I'm going to begin and discuss these dimensional standards. We -- as Bill
indicated, we have been working with staff for -- for well over a year on this. We have
had meetings, we have gone back and forth, we -- we have thought about coming in
and, then, we changed our -- we thought about waiting a little bit and it's gone back and
forth and it just -- as time goes on it seems to be more and more of a confusing topic.
So, we begin submitting -- we began working on this long before the comp plan update
had been undertaken. The changes that we are requesting do not have any bearing on
the Comprehensive Plan update. It's interesting to note that the very reason that we
brought this before you tonight was to help provide clarity to the neighborhood -- or to
the neighboring property owners and public in general. The letters the city has received
in response for our application tonight have proven our point that the current naming
convention is confusing and needs to be updated. As the staff report suggests, the City
Council changed the zoning code a few years ago and removed the density requirement
from residential districts within the Unified Development Code. This idea what -- the
idea was that it would allow the Comprehensive Plan to dictate the density on specific
properties and city code would provide the dimensional standards only. So, it separated
those two issues. In theory this was a good way to allow the two documents to work
together. The problem today is the current naming of the zoning districts still reflects
the old code and causes confusion about density. To illustrate the point I want to bring
up this -- this is the agenda from tonight's meeting. So, prior to our meeting you heard
two -- two residential subdivisions that came in. Jocelyn Park was -- was just under
two units per acre, but it's in an R-8 zone. So, you can see the confusion that happens
here. You have got neighbors thinking, well, they can do eight units -- they are doing
eight units per acre when really they are only using that for dimensional standards and
that's especially true in the Rockbury Townhomes. It's an R-15 zone, but it only has 7.8
units per acre. So, there is a big discrepancy between the name of the zone and how
many units are actually being applied for, so -- so it's important to note that most of
these developments have -- are in zones that reflect the dimensional standards only.
That zone does not reflect the density. Real quickly. This is just a little graphic to show
-- we have got a Comprehensive Plan on one side, we have got zoning code on the
other side, so, again, the Comprehensive Plan tells you you are in a medium density
residential zone or area. You have got a maximum density that's called out of eight
units per acre. You go to the zoning code in an R-15 -- ask for an R-15 zone for the
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dimensional standards, but you're -- still your net is less than eight units per acre. The
zoning codes R-2 through R-40 names simply do not correlate to density as they did in
the past. Our request before you tonight is strictly an issue of changing the naming, so
it is less confusing for everyone involved. We understand that change can be difficult.
Yes, it's going to require some work for staff and, yes, Ada county is going to have to
make some changes, but our understanding is those are doable things. It's not
impossible and just because it's hard in our opinion doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to
do. Staff is in agreement that there needs to be a change, as Bill -- as Bill said. Some
of these -- you know, when we have gone back and forth staff's brought up some
concern about the nomenclature that we put forward about R-A, R-B, R-C. We are not
saying that that's necessarily the right answer. They have also proposed some naming
and we have -- we had some discussion with staff and it was getting close to the
hearing. I don't think we have really come to an agreement on what -- what would be
best. What we would really like to do, with your approval tonight, is meet some more
with staff before the City Council hearing to try and come up with some more options on
that naming and let Council decide what -- what really is best for -- for the code. So,
with that, Madam Chair, Commissioners, if you would like, we can do questions on that
right now or wait until the end. I don't know what you would like to do.
Perreault: I think we can just wait until the end.
Bailey: Okay. Good. Okay. So, I'm going to move on to Item No. 2. In that -- in this
one we are looking at a specific code. We are looking at the -- or a specific zone. We
are looking at the R-15 zone specifically. This also has to do with the zoning code, but
it's actual dimensional standards within the R-15 zone. In working through design and
construction of a couple of recently approved developments, as Bill had brought up, it's
become clear that the R-15 zone -- it doesn't have enough setbacks to fit all of the
situations and even though when we submitted plans for a preliminary plat and went
through the process with -- with Planning and Zoning and City Council, we showed
detailed plans, but when -- when staff actually goes out to actually look at this and does
it fit in the building permit process, there got to be a lot of questions and a lot of
concerns came up and the fear was we didn't want to do something that wasn't -- you
know, wasn't in the code. Staff wants something to fall back on to make sure they are
doing things correctly and we are in agreement with that. So, that's why we are here
tonight. We are talking about setback requirements for projects that specifically utilize
private streets. So, this is not for every project in the R-15 zone, it's -- I'm not going to
say always, because I don't think there is an always in any of this, but typically you're
talking about a gated community that has private streets that -- that -- that is enclosed to
itself. So, we have worked with staff and we have talked about, as Bill said, different --
different ideas, different ways to go about this and we are just trying to make this easier
and more streamlined for both the city and for development in general and in the future
everybody will -- will know what the rules are and it will be easier to move through this
process. So, I have kind of numbered each one of these on your screen and so I'm
going to talk through them one at a time and the first thing I want to point out is these
changes are not changing the density in any way in the zone and they are not changing
the minimum lot sizes. That's not something we are trying to change tonight. So, under
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the -- under the first heading street setbacks for garages, under item number one, we
have just added private street and as you see it's still a 20 foot setback, just as a local
street would be. So, we just added that heading because if it's -- it's clearer for staff as
they review these, they know what the answer is. They are not going, well, this isn't a
local street, it's private, how do we apply this. It is clear. Number two is the same
issue, but on a common driveway. We have also got 20 feet from our garage setback.
So, move down to the next heading, which is setbacks for the living area. So, again, on
a private street we are ten feet. On a local street we are the same, ten feet. Common
driveways. This is where, as Bill brought up, we -- we propose something -- we propose
the one and a half feet to three feet setbacks from a common driveway and that one
and a half would be for -- we said 40 percent or less of that side of the home. I think Bill
said 50. We can make 40 work. We are just trying to provide some undulation in those
homes and not have just a straight wall. So, that's why we -- we suggested that. So,
move to -- so, item number five. This has not changed. We just add -- staff thought it
was a good idea and we are agreed to add public street to the rear setbacks, so it
clarifies that that's 12 feet. So, then, we move to number six -- or, excuse me, I think I
just -- yeah. So, then, we go to the private street setback and feet on number six. So,
number seven. So, where we have -- currently we have attached homes, so there is
zero lot line homes. We could have attached in this particular case on number seven
and the rear setback. What we are asking is we want to say, okay, it can be zero, which
we have today, and we have that approved or it could be a three foot setback. We are
having a lot of potential homeowners request to have -- they don't want the attached
structures. We are attaching four units together. They would prefer to have detached
homes and so the -- adding the three foot would allow us to do that on -- on the rear
setback, so -- so, where these are four pack attached, it would allow a three foot,
basically, all -- not all the way around, but on -- on the two sides. So -- so, we are just
asking for that to be consistent with the side yards for homes on private -- on -- again,
this is on private streets only. This does not accept -- this does not affect any perimeter
lots or any -- any other lots that we would be abutting, anything outside of the
subdivision, that would just be internal to this development. Now, number eight, the
exterior boundary. Again, we would -- we would have 12 feet of setback on the exterior
boundary of the entire development, just like we would have had to before. So, that
really hasn't changed, we have just added another line to clarify that. So, again, as Bill
stated, we did work with staff. We want to require that that minimum square footage of
private usable open space for each residence and so that's the footnote. It's 120
square feet. And, then, we -- we don't have a problem with staff's recommendation on
the final plat that -- that we show the lot lines that are to be attached and the ones that
won't be attached. So, we will -- we may have to -- in the future we would need to
delineate that beforehand before construction begins. So, again, none of the proposed
changes that you're seeing tonight would increase density. It's simply providing
dimensional requirements to the code that did not exist before. We are trying to make
this as simple for everyone involved as possible. We believe that these changes will
help staff in the review process in providing clear and defined requirements. It will also
aid in the design and construction process by providing a set of rules for developers and
builders to follow. We are asking for your recommendation to City Council to add
requirements to the R-15 zone. And with that I will stand for any questions.
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Perreault: Any questions for the applicant? Okay. Thank you.
Bailey: Thank you.
Perreault: At this time we will take public testimony. Chris, how many did you say are
signed up?
Johnson: There are five indicating they wish to testify. First is Susan Karnes.
Perreault: Please come forward.
Karnes: Good evening again. I'm Susan Karnes. 5556 South Graphite Way. And I'm
here speaking tonight on behalf of the Meridian Southern Rim Coalition. We have
reviewed the proposed amendments and we wish to submit our opposition for the public
record. We want the Commission to carefully examine the context and the optics of this
application. Comp plans drive code and they, too, should align. Residents for the last
year and a half or two have expressed outrage at the city's numerous deviations from its
existing comp plan. Council, realizing the comp plan is outdated, has invested in an
expensive Comprehensive Plan process in which it has promise stakeholders in writing
-- and I quote -- a robust and effective community outreach process. Unquote. As a
member of the steering committee for the new Comprehensive Plan committee, along
with Chairwoman McCarvel and, in fact, the applicant Mr. Conger of DevCo, I'm
especially baffled and confused by this application and its timing. In the last two
steering committee meetings we have had breakout groups and spent hours taking
feedback from stakeholders that the city has made an excruciating effort to gather, we
are analyzing it and we are trying to see what drives the vision for this city. We have
had enormous maps of the City of Meridian at our last two steering committee meetings
and we have been asked in our breakout groups to discuss zoning and land use. I think
that this application, if approved, sends a terrible mixed message when we are trying so
hard to engage our citizens and restore public trust in the process. What's the rush?
What's the urgency for what we perceive as substantial changes requested tonight?
Why can't we allow our new Comprehensive Plan process time and protect its integrity
by not making substantial changes. We support business that will elevate the quality of
development or enhance public safety, but why in the world that this application -- I'm
going to -- I'm just referring to the staff report. Quote: Typically code changes should
occur after the adoption of a new comp plan. It's going to affect 39,000 parcels whose
owners have not had notice of this application. Staff is concerned about runoff and
drainage on affected R-15 lots. They report the city doesn't have an adequate grading
and -- and drainage ordinance. There has been an increase in the number of citizens
complaining about this. Staff was hoping to have a discussion with UDC focus group for
additional input and guidance, but the applicant didn't want to wait for the city time
frames. I understand my three minutes are up. Can I speak for the coalition and go for
another moment or two?
Perreault: We need to have a raise of hands to do that. Who else --
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Karnes: You have dozens of people that signed in online, so I -- I would consider that
hands raised.
Perreault: Okay.
Karnes: Okay. Thank you. I have tried to make it brief. I'm not going to take ten
minutes. This is why we get so much feedback from our residents that they believe
developers are driving growth and development in the city. So, we see no benefit in
approving this application, other than its benefit the developer, and we will remind those
in attendance and the Commissioners that this application, if approved, will affect
approved R-15 developments, one of which, Eastridge Estates, is along the southern
rim. Nearly every neighbor in nearby HOA opposed Eastridge and now the developer
can use the UDC amendment to further increase density without going back through the
process of notifying neighbors and presenting his amended plan in public hearings. If
P&Z approves these dimensional standards they will have the ability to construct a
development of higher density significantly different than what was proposed and
approved through public hearings. That, our members are telling us, is not
transparency in government, that's circumventing the process. That scenario offends
many of our members and we believe gives Commissioners reason enough to deny this
application. We do agree the present naming convention is confusing and we believe it
needs to be overhauled to address Meridian's standing as a city of a hundred thousand
plus and we could support staff's naming amendment. However, we would prefer to
support it after completion of the new Comprehensive Plan. If you're asking
stakeholders to speak, then, give them the respect of listening. While we agree that the
city needs higher density housing to accommodate growth and the need for affordable
housing, we believe the proposed R-15 dimensional standards are best suited in certain
zones and not city wide and I say that to you also from the context of seeing some of
the survey results that are coming in from stakeholders. However, we can't support any
aspect of R-15 dimensional standards to substantial UDC changes until after the new
comp plan is approved. We believe Planning and Zoning should deny this application.
By doing so you will take an enormous step toward restoring public trust in our city
government, the Comprehensive Plan, and the new comp plan process. Thank you.
Any questions?
Perreault: Any questions? Thank you.
Karnes: Thank you.
Johnson: Next is Greg Reynolds. Kimberly Juarez. Sally Reynolds.
Reynolds: Good evening, Madam Chair, Commissioners. My name is Sally Reynolds
and I live at 1166 West Bacall in Meridian. So, I'm going to make a couple of general
comments, but they do apply to this amendment. So, over the last couple of months I
have seen NextDoor post the comp plan survey and corresponding website, which is
encouraging residents to participate in planning the city's future. The residents who
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participate in these surveys, obviously, feel strongly about the future of Meridian and
take time to -- and care enough about it to take time to give feedback. When local
government asks for input and, then, turns around and makes a unilateral decision,
which undermines that process, it breeds distrust and even worse apathy. I can't tell
you how many times I have heard why are you even trying, they don't listen to us. The
developers run the city and there is nothing we can do to stop it. It's a done deal, so
why try. And my favorite. Growth is coming like it or not, so if you don't like it move.
My response to the last one is I love Meridian, my kids love Meridian, and we want it to
continue be a great place to live and, yes, growth is coming, but it can be controlled.
Smart growth managed by a local government that understands the concerns of
residents. A government that can balance the creation of jobs and housing without
sacrificing our quality of life. Please respect the residents and wait for that process to
finish. The comp plan and UDC go hand in hand. Over the last year and a half I have
testified on several applications, especially in the north Meridian area. Time and time
again the residents are told that the comp plan is not a legally binding document and
merely a guide for the city. What is it supposed to guide? The Meridian city code. This
code is what the developers are held to. Please let the comp plan guide the UDC. As
you heard the applicant himself say, they fall back on the UDC and that's what we count
on and that's what needs to be defined. In regards to this particular amendment, the
current naming condition, while it may not be tied directly to the type of housing and
numbers of dwellings, it at least gives residents an idea of what level of housing density
a developer is planning. The R-A, R-B designation structure obscures an applicant --
that applicant's proposed land use. It further muddies the waters on what is already a
very difficult process to understand, especially if you're not in the land use industry and
most of us aren't. The naming convention proposed by staff is much more easily
understood and they have some expertise in this area. As a Meridian city resident I
appreciate when my local government leaders exhibit integrity, accountability, and
transparency. The A, B, C -- I don't -- I don't understand how that would correspond in
any way. So, how does this add value to Meridian? Well, as far as I can tell it doesn't.
It's favoring the developers and their profits and not engaging the public at all. I was
going to read some quotes from NextDoor, which were given from Kaycee Emery
asking for feedback today for the town hall meeting, but I will just close. So, believe it or
not, I have learned a lot in the last 18 months. I understand growth will come and there
is a need for a mixture of housing, but this is not an amendment that should be
considered right now given the comp plan revisions. I firmly believe it would rarely ever
be in Meridian's best interest to have minimal setbacks and possibly cram more units
into the area. If it is, let developers prove that and approve it on a case-by-case basis.
Please protect the integrity of the public process. Make it the exception rather than the
default. And, please, deny this request. Thank you.
Perreault: Thank you.
Reynolds: And for a visual, here is -- there is three feet.
Johnson: Last sign in is Robert Nielsen.
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Nielsen: My name is Robert Nielsen. I live at 3508 East Quinn Drive in Meridian.
Thanks for the opportunity to testify and I thank you for the staff comments. It's clarified
some things. Clearly this is a -- something that is in process, since some of the
information we are showing tonight was not on the website a few days ago when I
looked to see what was happening tonight. In any case, I want to recommend that P&Z
not approve the proposed text amendment to the residential naming district. The
current zoning designations, indeed, as -- as mentioned, are not precise indicators of
what I always thought as a resident were maximum density for the zone and that's
because the city code had been changed to specify dimensional standards, like
minimum -- pardon me -- minimum property size per dwelling unit setbacks. However,
while those designations, if there are assumed to be maximum units per area, are not
precise, the current residential zoning districts do reasonably correspond to the
maximum allowable density. Last August when this first came up on the city website, I
went through and looked at the 2018 city projects and of the 37 residential projects that
were on that list, if you go through the applications, there are only four of them that
exceeded the designated -- what I assumed was the maximum residential density for
that zoning and three of those four were things -- were -- exceeded the limit by amounts
that were very small zoning areas. So, while they are not precise, they are reasonable
estimates of what would be a maximum allowed zoning -- units per area. The City of
Meridian residents are already at a disadvantage to understanding the zoning process
and the development process. It's very complex. Now I -- I appreciate the effort to
provide more transparency of this process by changing R-2, R-4, R-8, et cetera, into R-
A, R-B, R-C, because that doesn't help me a lot. Not at all. It actually decreases
transparency obviously. Although the staff recommendation is to have -- have names
that are more associated with the Comprehensive Plan, makes a lot more sense,
because at least the generic description of those -- of those densities tells the residents
something, that A, B, C and D does not. If -- if changes are needed to the residential
designations to correspond to the changes that have been made in city code, I would
recommend, as has been stated that, it be done after the Comprehensive Plan is
approved and that the changes that are made not be R-A, B, C, D and E, but something
that corresponds to what's in the Comprehensive Plan. Further, in regard to the other
proposal in the application, I'm concerned about the setbacks that are described. It's
been stated that we do see setbacks to zero and three feet people will not increase
density. Well, that's kind of ludicrous, because when you keep a standard building size
and you decrease the setbacks, you allow more of the buildings per unit -- per unit area.
Now, it may not exceed the number of units in a density designation like an R-15, the 15
units per building, but, in fact, when you look at these 37 applications last August, many
of them are well below what the maximum will be applied by the current zoning
designation. So, what reducing setbacks would do would be to increase the densities to
more approach what the maximum would be for the current designations. Finally, when
you talk about a one and a half foot setback from your public street, I get concerned
about safety. Now, maybe people don't speed on private streets. They certainly speed
where I live and one and a half feet is not very far from a car across the street. Thank
you.
Perreault: Thank you. Chris, is that everyone that was signed up?
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Johnson: That was everybody that signed in.
Perreault: Is there anybody else present here that would like to speak? Please come
forward.
G.Nielsen: Thank you. My name is Glen Nielsen. I'm at 2135 West Sunnyslope Drive.
And I just wanted to come down tonight to -- on this one issue. If your staff has items
that they need to have clarified, then, you know, it shouldn't be passed right out. They
have to -- they have to make up their minds, go through the process. They are talking,
well, we don't know if it's going to be -- what is it, three feet or zero -- whatever. And
how is that going to work with like utilities or whatever. So, they need to figure that out.
And, then, if you're going to make these changes and you say you're going to pass that
on, Ada county has to make the changes -- well, you can't direct Ada county to make
the changes. So, that was just where I'm just at. So, I would just say, no, not tonight.
Thank you very much.
Perreault: Anyone else?
Lupher: Hi, again. Shelley Lupher. 7030 North Sienna Glen Way, Meridian. I agree
with the applicant that this topic is confusing. It is. I have been involved with several of
these projects and I still don't understand it. But I'm also not a developer. But at this
point this appears to be just a way to manipulate setbacks in order to increase density,
as the previous gentleman just stated. You know, we -- we get that code provides
dimensions, the comp plan provides zoning, and these don't always talk to each other
very well. But, you know what, now is our opportunity to make these match, make them
a -- modify them so that they do talk to each other in a more complete and
straightforward way. If we are modifying the comp plan, then -- then make it all work.
Make it easy enough for people to understand. It -- it doesn't seem like it would be that
hard to do and renaming it R-A, R-8 -- that's just -- that's an insult, frankly. I think the
graphic presented by the applicant actually shows a problem. When you get down to
the bottom and it says net greater than eight units, this is a subtle manipulation of the
Comprehensive Plan. If you show on a Comprehensive Plan that it's going to be eight
units per acre, that's what it ought to be. Not greater than eight units per acre when it
ends up being built out. You know, as someone who is directly affected by lack of
following the comp plan, because I live across the way from the Costco that may be
going in, this is not the right time to make this change and if we are going to all this
trouble and spending all this money to change the comp plan, then, make it easy for
people to understand. It doesn't have to be dumbed down to a point where an 8th
grader can understand it, but, you know, if we are all adults we can read and we can
understand that. So -- you know. And there are some parts with the applicant's, you
know, request that do make sense. I think for -- certain types of setbacks are appealing
for certain types of developments, like 55 plus communities or people who want to retire
in one level homes, but don't want a huge yard, you know, that may make sense to
them, but a ten by 12 patio for a family home, they -- it needs to be larger than that. So,
that doesn't make sense. So, changing this for the entire city does not make sense. It
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needs to be very specific and it needs to be shown in the comp plan that way. I think
that the full impact of these changes are not completely understood, not only by
citizens, but by staff as indicated in the report and their recommendation to make further
changes and at this point the only beneficiary piece -- appears to be the applicant. As
citizens we are not really feeling heard and this appears to be an undermining of the
Comprehensive Plan review process. Thank you.
Perreault: Anyone else? Please come forward. State your name and address for the
record.
Wheeler: Yes. Doug Wheeler. 2402 East Taconic Drive, Meridian. I just wanted to
speak to the Commission. I didn't have anything really prepared tonight, but I have just
been listening and I have been able to come the last two or three years to P&Z
meetings and so forth. Just observations I guess is what I'm -- I'm thinking of. We
talked about the Comprehensive Plan and I know when I moved here about nine years
ago I looked into a lot of that when I started seeing things happening in Meridian and I
kept saying they don't quite seem to match up and I know that's a concern that's being
worked on. I came to the area, too, thinking look at all this land and all the area that we
have here and, then, I just started saying how is it being squeezed in. So, obviously,
density is a big -- big concern and I have been hearing that the last couple three years.
I know that our infrastructure and roads are really being pushed because of that. This
reclassification I guess you would say, I think really needs to be looked at very carefully,
because that can have some big effect on what the future is going to be. We have a lot
of situations where we have seen -- maybe track records of various developers that are
always asking for things to be squeezed in more, so there is a little bit more profit
possibly, but you as a commission do also need to look out for Meridian and I do urge
you to look towards that, because that's -- the tax dollars aren't the only thing here,
people want other things. I think our biggest concern is who is really driving the bus.
Are the developers or is the P&Z looking at things and saying, you know, we need to
really take a good look on things here, because this is a city that's really booming and
some of these squeezings in here are making it so that people are starting to be
concerned about do I really want to settle in Meridian now, because I have seen what's
happening. Observations. Thank you.
Perreault: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like -- please come forward.
Affleck: My name is Mary Affleck. I live at 6519 South Raap Ranch Lane in Meridian.
And I just think this is really sneaky, actually, to come in through the back door to
increase the density in a very rural area. We live right across the street from the
subdivision that is supposedly going in for the 55 plus and we have 16 acres and a park
now next to us and it sounds like a fire station. So, not too unhappy with that, but not
very happy about the density that's being packed in. The one thing that I wanted to tell
you, though, was that we just got word from a friend -- she texted me and told me that
the meeting was tonight and that what they were discussing and several other friends
and so we signed in as quickly as we could, but there are several others that got shut
out because it started. So, I just wanted you to know that there are several other people
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-- two different text groups that are -- yeah, text groups that were discussing this and
wanted to sign in, but couldn't, and that are against it. Just mainly -- the main thing -- I
don't know that it has anything to do with the naming of it, but has to do with the density
and just the numerous amount of people that are coming in -- into our area, which -- I
don't know. We love Idaho. I was born in Boise and -- and we are -- to my whole life.
We are retired Air Force and I have lived all over the world and the places that we have
loved -- well, that we came back to it's Idaho and we were done, because it isn't
California and it's not England, although England has a pretty good plan. They don't
build in their countries at all. It's designated country and you just rebuild the cities. So,
the cities don't fail. Also Korea where it is packed in and we have lived in the big cities
all around the world. So, that's the only thing that I have to say is that I love Meridian
and that's why I'm -- the only reason I would stand up and say anything, because I love
Idaho. Thanks.
Perreault: Please encourage those individuals to send in communications to the clerk's
office and/or come to the City Council hearing and testify there as well.
Affleck: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Perreault: Anyone else? At this time would the applicant, please, like to come forward.
Bailey: Madam Chairperson, Commissioners, just wanted to touch on a couple items
quickly. You know, I think everybody who got up here testified about density and the
two developments that -- that Bill brought up, both of those are already approved, they
have development agreements that set the number of units. This is not going to change
any of the density of those units. Those projects are approved with mostly attached
products. So, we are actually asking for the three feet to detach those products. So,
we are going the opposite direction from what -- a lot of the testimony we just heard.
Those are 55 and over communities and we have focused the open space and areas for
those folks in the one place and provided gated communities that -- that that
demographic is looking for. We agree it's not -- it's not right for all of Meridian, but in
specific instances we believe it is and that's why we are here tonight. We heard
testimony that -- that there is a lot of confusion and I think that's still the case. We are --
you know, we are here tonight trying to make that better. You know, that -- that's the
goal. We -- we heard comments about public streets. These -- these changes aren't for
public streets, they are for private streets. And, then, we heard a lot of comment about,
you know, the comp plan and how it should drive code and, definitely, I believe, you
know, we believe that's true. The current comp plan process -- I think if you ask staff
right now they are planning on about nine months to a year before that comes to a
close. I mean I have been through these processes several times in the Treasure
Valley. Meridian, Ada county, Boise. Time frames to -- it's one of those things that
takes a long time. And, then, once it's even decided upon it takes time to get it
published to me to ratified and get it approved by Council and Planning and Zoning
Commission. So, we are not trying to do an end run around anybody, we just feel like
there is a -- there are issues today and we are trying to put something in place to take
care of the next year, year and a half, and -- and really following a comp plan
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amendment, yeah, there will probably be changes to the code and at that time if these
things need to be revisited they should be and we agree with that, but -- but tonight we
are asking for your recommendation to City Council for approval. Any questions?
Perreault: I have a few questions for you. I know that you as developers understand
the zoning, no matter what they are named you understand the zoning. So, I'm curious
as to how that -- the name change really does benefit you and --
Bailey: Well -- okay. I will go back to the example we talked about in the presentation.
You know, you have got projects and we are submitting application and the current
zone is R-8 or we are asking for an R-15 to get those dimensional standards we are
talking about tonight, but our density -- I mean even in the two projects we are talking
about, we are under or around five to six units per acre, but we are at an R-15 zone to
get the dimensional standard and so what happens is, then, the public is all -- are
confused, because they think we are asking for 15 units per acre when that's really not
the case. We are, you know, between four and five or five and six units per acre. So,
that density doesn't translate, it creates a lot of confusion and we get a lot of people
coming and testifying that -- that they believe we are developing R-15. There is also
concern that when we get -- when we get a project approved with an R-15 zone that
somehow we can come back -- come back and backdoor in increased density and we
have -- we have had discussions with -- with City Council just in the last year about that
concern, that they did -- they agreed with what we were doing, they thought it was fine,
but the R-15 zone concerned them, because they were afraid somebody would come
later and try and change it and so that's -- that's the concern. That's why we want to
change this. We want it to be consistent. And I understand what some of the -- the
constituents were saying or some of the citizens that R-A is maybe more confusing to
them than R-15. I get that. But it still doesn't solve the problem and so I agree with
staff, we need to come up with -- with a name that does -- that does relay what -- what
the density is, but doesn't -- doesn't provide that fear factor, I guess, so to speak of this
is going to be 15 units per acre, when, really it's five.
Perreault: And can you take us through more clearly what the difference would look like
for you when you make an application for private street with the existing process, having
the distances specifically set? Help us understand what those -- how that looks
different for you and why you're making application for that. If you -- you still have the
right to apply for that currently, it's just that you want that stated because --
Bailey: Well, I think the way we would have to apply for that currently would go through
a PUD process and I -- I don't -- I'm not saying that's a bad idea. Meridian's current
PUD process doesn't allow us a lot of opportunities. There are some things that we
have to provide. We have to show that we have got -- you know, that there is a -- a
hindrance or something because of natural features or some of the other things that --
that are required in a PUD that makes that difficult. It's another area that we have
talked to staff about and I think Bill would agree with me needs to be changed in the
code, but that's a much bigger undertaking, the PUD process. It is an option, but we --
we feel it's much cleaner to come in and show, you know, just fix the code, so that we
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can come in directly and not have to go through a PUD process to do that. So, that's
why we are asking for this, to -- to make that clarity. Also it makes it easier, like I said,
for staff in their review, because they can go and say, oh, we do have a requirement for
a private street, whereas -- whereas there wasn't one today. So, instead of them trying
to figure out, well, shall we just say this is like a local street -- they actually have that
delineation that says, no, we have a private street setback, we know what that is. We
can improve this.
Perreault: Okay. And can you also -- sorry. I just lost my train of thought. Okay. I
think I think that sufficiently -- I just wanted to -- I understand all of the requests that are
being made. I wanted to know how it's affecting you, the applicant specifically. Oh, I
remember what I was going to ask. Why the timing now? I mean, you know, you have
already heard there is a lot of concerns about -- I understand the comp plan's role in this
and the code's role in this, but to me it would make more sense if this was all rolled out
at one time with the comp plan, so that the public has sort of digesting these changes at
the same time and -- and just from a public understanding it would make more sense to
have all those changes made at the same time.
Bailey: I guess I want to point out that there wasn't some grand plan here that we
decided this was a better time to do this. We -- we have been talking about this with
staff for -- for over a year about the issue. We have brought it up at City Council as part
of our presentations trying to educate and say, look, these are the situation. We
thought that was an approach that maybe would grab hold and -- and help the decision
body. I think in some ways it has, but in other ways it hasn't and so as we were working
through this we really this spring decided, you know, we really need to submit an
application, but we wanted to work with staff, we wanted to talk about the options and --
and all of this takes time, just as the comp plan takes time. There wasn't a -- you know,
we just had been moving forward with our process. We didn't -- the comp plan, then,
came up and got started work on it. We didn't put those two together, I guess, to say
one should happen first or we should wait. I think it's -- I think, though, it is a bad idea to
wait, because the issue is here before us today. The comp plan, you know, will
continue on for a year or so and beyond that, then, we are going to have to change the
code, which could continue on for just as long. I mean so you're talking this could be
two or three years from now before this issue gets visited and we felt like it's -- it's -- it's
at the forefront today, it's an issue that needs to be handled today.
Perreault: Thank you. Any other questions?
Holland: One more follow up.
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: One more follow-up question. What are your thoughts on staff's red line
changes to your -- your suggestions here?
Bailey: In -- just in general or which one specifically that --
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Holland: For the -- for the naming convention and, then, for any of the other
recommendations they have made off of what you have put forward.
Bailey: On the naming convention I know -- I understand what they tried to do. I
understand what we tried to do. We -- we were just -- we thought about it for a while
and said, you know what, this is complicated. Let's put out something simple. You
have got to, then, go read what is R-A, you have got to go read the actual text and know
what that is, rather than just hearing R-15 and knowing it's 15 or guessing, I guess, that
it's 15. So, you got to actually read the text, which I think would be helpful for everyone.
But, you know, staff's saying we are going to change it to more directly correspond to
the comp plan. I think that makes sense, except for the comp plan will allow usually for
one or two or even sometimes three of these items within one comp plan designation
area. So, I think that will provide additional confusion. I don't want to get into that
tonight, because I think it's -- I think it's a deep hole to go down. I think we need to
spend a little more time with staff before we go to Council and come up with some
better options -- is what we would prefer to do. We didn't know about staff's comments
until, you know, early in the week and so that didn't give us a lot of time to comment
back on that, so not -- not that that's anybody's fault, just -- I think that could take a
week or two of comments to come up with something better.
Perreault: Any additional questions?
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: Bill, can you go back to the example of the -- the homes? So, looking at this,
I have to admit I would much prefer an attached product, because I don't see how this
will actually work with the three foot setback on three sides -- or at least two sides. I -- I
have seen it on the side lot -- yard and stuff like that and, you know, landscaping wise
most times they just do rock, but, you know, if you have a fence between there and
you're trying to get into that back corner, it's -- it's almost impossible to do that or even
to work on the side of your house. I have to admit I'm a little, you know -- I guess I'm a
little concerned about a back setback at three feet based on that -- just based on this
slide alone and especially the one and a half on the -- on the -- against the driveway,
just because, you know, it wouldn't take much for someone to pull in and hit the side of
the house. So, I guess if you can walk through how something like this would actually,
you know, look out in real life, that's -- I'm having a hard time looking at that. And
associated with that -- I know most times with the three foot setbacks you have no
eaves and so at this point what do you do for an eave on the back of the house? You
know, do not have any -- how do you take care of the drainage, that type of stuff,
because, you know, even in our area where we have big lots we still have problems with
drainage.
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Bailey: Madam Chairperson, Commissioner Yearsley, so I'm going to start backwards
to forwards there. We will start with drainage. This particular product in the -- in the 55
and over gated community and the two that we have discussed, these are very
stringently planned out, everything from drainage -- each and every roof drain,
everything's planned out. If we have got a lower area, there is going to be an area drain
to take care of that. This isn't your standard single family residential development
where, you know, the lots are just graded away from the home and -- and drainage
goes where it goes. This is very well thought out. It has to be, because there is not
enough room to do anything else. The second part on fencing, there is no fence --
interior fencing in this community. Everything's open. All of the maintenance and
landscaping is maintained by the HOA. So, nobody needs a lawn mower, nobody's
taking care of their own lawn, it's all done for them and that's -- that's what -- and in our
research and our questioning potential buyers that's what people are looking for. They
want a -- a place they can retire, that they don't have to worry about the maintenance
thing, they can go to Arizona anytime they want to and not have to worry about keeping
up the yard or watering the plants, that's all taken care of for them. That goes for the
exterior maintenance as well. Onto the eaves. This is a different product than what you
have seen at Solterra and Sobe and Verado. This -- this is a product that is, again, very
well designed. There is a lot of -- that goes into each one of these homes and there are
eaves on these -- on this product. Fire rated eaves that -- that would be required in a
three foot setback. So, really, what the issue here is is finding -- or providing more
space between homes or opening up areas. That's not what these folks are looking for.
They have a large meeting area -- social area. There is a project similar to this in Boise
and the folks who live there, they -- they love it. They -- they all go to the central
meeting area. There is a clubhouse. They have potlucks every Friday night.
Everybody knows everybody's name. No for sale signs ever go up in there, because
when somebody moves out somebody's got a friend they want to move in. It's all word
of mouth. We think this is a great product for -- for the community and -- and we
assumed that the attached product would -- would sell fine and it -- it will, but we are
getting a lot of people asking for a detached product and that's -- that's part of the
reason we are here, but the other part is to clean up the zoning issues for staff as well.
Yearsley: So, what do you do about windows between the two? I mean given that
close, you know, you may want a window for light, but, you know, if you're -- I mean
you're -- you're right there looking at each other if --
Bailey: I mean you -- if you were attached there would be no window; right?
Yearsley: Oh -- and I realize that. I just -- so, that's why I --
Bailey: Yeah. You're going to have some windows on those sides. Not as many,
because -- like you said. And -- and things are going to be staggered. There is -- these
product -- they are built as a -- as a group, that's all been thought out, so you're not --
you don't have two windows staring at each other. You don't have those issues,
because it's all been thought through and designed specifically for this product in this
location.
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Yearsley: So, I'm going to go back. So, I understand that your products are -- are
maybe well thought out and stuff like this, but how do we protect the public from those
people who haven't thought that out. That's -- that's where I -- I come in, because you
get some that -- oh, I just can do this and I want to do this and -- and, then, at the end of
the day we are left with a mess and so, you know, my concern is -- is having enough
teeth to protect the public against -- against that type of a development I guess.
Bailey: And I think -- I think to clarify that, when we initially met with staff that was their
concern as well and that's why we have added so many more items to the R-15 for the
private street section specifically -- was to address those issues, to provide the -- the
open space per unit, to provide all the different setbacks from each side and from the
common drive, all of those specific requirements, so that it would hem -- hem in the next
person that tries to do a similar development, they will have those requirements to keep
that consistent.
Perreault: Other questions for the applicant? Okay. Thank you so much.
Bailey: Thank you.
Perreault: At this time can I get a motion to close the public hearing for Item No. H-
2018-0059?
Holland: So moved.
Yearsley: Second.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearing for H-2018-
0059. All those in favor say aye. None opposed. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Perreault: I would like to request a five minute break. So, let's take five minutes, use
the restroom, come back here shortly.
(Recess: 8:35 p.m. to 8:40 p.m.)
Perreault: Okay. It looks like we are ready to start again. Commissioners, it's time to
discuss this application. Commissioner Yearsley, you look like you have some
thoughts.
Yearsley: Didn't know I was going to go first, but --
Perreault: You have the most experience.
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Yearsley: You know, I -- I like the naming -- changing the name, because I have heard
many many times like if you have an apartment complex with an R-40 zoning, you
know, they are going to put 40 units to the acre. I mean and -- and so I understand
where the applicant's coming from on that, is because, you know, it is an antiquated
system and it does not meet what's currently being proposed and -- and we see that all
the time. That being said, you know -- and maybe Bill might be able to answer that -- is
do we see out of the comp -- you know, because I'm sure a lot of this is out of the
zoning districts and out of the -- the comp plan. Do we anticipate the low density and
the medium density, medium high, medium -- you know, high density names changing.
You know, I would actually consider more of an R-4 as a medium density and maybe
the R-40 as an extreme density, but, you know, that's personally me. But, you know --
you know, that would be my only concern is if we get through all this process and
something changes on the zoning map or on the -- you know, coming out of the comp
plan that we don't match per se. That being said, I don't think we are going to see that
significant of a change that it shouldn't be that big of an issue. So, I could support that
application -- portion of the application to make those changes and the fear of changing
the -- all the lots -- the different ones. We are going to have to do it some time, you
know, so when -- when do you make that -- make these changes. So, with the
dimensional standards -- that one I struggle to keep -- put my head around in how that
actually works. I understand where you guys are coming from and it helps you -- and,
you know, with specific areas. My concern is how we protect those individuals and
have enough teeth and I -- and at this point I don't have that level of comfort that we
have the teeth in there to make sure we have a good product based on these
dimensional standards. So, I'm not quite sure where -- you know, how we want to
proceed with this at that point. You know, I'm kind of at a -- do we continue it and talk
about it further? I would be curious to see what the rest of the Commission thinks.
Holland: Madam Chair. So, if you could go back to the first slide, Bill, that you have.
We have had conversations where the -- the zoning code is confusing to people who
don't have a planning background or who haven't worked in economic development or
don't understand development projects and this was something that -- we have done a
better job of putting this up at the beginning of every meeting. We started implementing
this a few months back and maybe even longer than that ago, for the reason of trying to
help people understand what the R-2, R-4, R-8 actually means and so this chart I think
is really helpful in educating the public. When they come in for an application they can
see the agenda and they can look and see R-2, it's kind of in that rural, but it's also in
this low density and so you can kind of see how it -- how it blends in there. I think this is
a good start to explaining to the public how we kind of see applications and what really
fits in those zoning codes. Could we still do better? Yes, I think we could. I -- I'm not
opposed to changing the language on how we refer to some of those zones, but I do
have some concerns, as well as what was -- what people were testifying is why isn't this
part of just kind of rolling out with the Comprehensive Plan, what's the urgency of having
it done right now. I don't know that it -- I feel like this kind of puts a little bit of a Band-
Aid on it, having this chart that helps us kind of explain that to the public. I would like to
maybe see that change as part of the Comprehensive Plan rollout, but I'm worried that if
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we change it now and there might be something else that we add to the Comprehensive
Plan that makes it more confusing, then, you have got to change it twice, rather than
just waiting and doing it all at once. That's my thought about that. I'm not opposed to
changing it, but I want to make sure we do it at the right timing to make sure it makes
sense for staff and to make sure it makes sense for the Comprehensive Plan committee
and at least get some of their buy in on their thoughts about this piece. On the other
piece about changing some of the setbacks, I think you -- you expressed it in some of
your comments earlier. It's hard to put forward a change that we know maybe one
developer could do well with putting together a good product, but we can't guarantee
that all developers are going to do the same thing and it's hard to approve a plan that
comes from the request of one developer rather than a collaborative staff driven,
committee balanced proposal. So, I guess I would prefer to have some deliberation
from -- from staff a little bit more on what they would like to see or have maybe some
Comprehensive Plan committee input into this process or certainly more deliberation
amongst ourselves on that. But I have some concerns with the way that that looks for
some of the same comments that you have mentioned earlier, Commissioner Yearsley.
Wilson: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: So, yeah, I mean I -- I was thinking about this and in terms of process I
understand, you know, you kind of initiate this process in the spring and now it's kind of
coinciding and getting closer in proximity to the release of that Comprehensive Plan and
so -- I mean I think from a timing standpoint do you want to do this twice? Because
more than likely on the naming conventions we are going to have to do it twice and I
don't -- I think I would rather do it once now that I really think about it, even though I
think that I -- I have been around long enough to know that there is a lot of confusion
about the naming conventions and that discussion has -- there has been a lot of
discussion about how we change those and I think that the option -- that the revised
option by staff makes a lot of sense, but, then, I don't want to tinker with it again in eight
to 12 months or whenever that's coming. So, that's kind of my thoughts on that. And,
then, I -- I completely agree on sort of that setback issue. I don't feel like I have a good
enough grasp at this point in thinking through all the implications of it to kind of say, oh,
yeah, that -- let's move that -- let's kick that up to City Council. I do want to make that
clear to everybody, I mean that would be the next step in the process. It would go to
City Council for approval. I think there was a little bit of confusion on that. In terms of
our options -- now, obviously, if we deny it it would go to City Council for their
consideration. If we continue it -- I mean when would we continue it for? Considering
the skepticism on the naming conventions, eight months from now, nine months from
now, is it just sitting out there to be determined? So, I think we are going to have to
probably deny it if that's where we are leaning. Those are my thoughts at this time.
Perreault: So, just thinking about these -- the private drives, the common -- the
common driveways, I would anticipate that this would allow developers to create more
developments using private drives. We don't -- I, at least in the time that I have been
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here, I have not seen that to be a common thing and just like the one that we had heard
earlier that has that private drive there, they are -- they are not required to have
sidewalks, they are -- they are not required to be the width of a public street and I think
that if we set it up in such a way that it is easier for the developers so they don't have to
go through the PUD process to do this and that we are going to start seeing some
additional applications on these small in-fill projects for these private roads and that we
are going to create issues for -- for our -- our safety services, obviously, we will continue
to have conversations about enough parking in -- in those kind of communities -- in the
communities where we are going to have the private roads and several common --
common driveways. So, while the applicant is saying that it -- the intention is not to
allow for communities with greater density and it doesn't -- it doesn't. I mean I
understand. In other words, they can't come in and ask for a larger density than R-15
allows. So, in that sense they can. But they can try to put additional units in a smaller
space and so that it feels more dense, even if they haven't gone outside the parameters
of that zone and so -- and, then, add a private road on top of that that's smaller without
the requirement for sidewalks and I just feel like we are creating an easier way for it to
become safety issues, you know, just -- just -- the things that we continually talk about
and address every time we have an application that -- that's -- that's close together
where the -- the residences are this close together. So, I -- as far as the naming goes, I
completely agree with -- with my Commissioners that we can be doing this as a repeat.
I really think if the intention of renaming the zones, as the applicant has stated, is for the
purpose of public understanding, then -- then let's do this with -- in -- with the
Comprehensive Plan, so that we are introducing that, because I know that this -- that
the city has a plan to introduce the Comprehensive Plan when it comes out to the public
in a way that is -- you know, I think they have done a great job in getting public feedback
and I know that they will be rolling that out so the public will understand the comp plan,
so -- so, why not, then, introduce names -- new names for the zones at that time. I just
think it makes more sense if the intention is for public understanding. I don't think -- it's
my opinion that a year isn't going to make or break anything when it comes to this and I
think it will really be a lot easier on the public for us to do that at the same time. I know
the developers understand the zones as they are currently and -- and I don't disagree
with -- with changing the name. I think the names need changed and -- and I don't --
and I think it would be fine for the applicant to meet with the city and go over those
options of the names. I don't have any concern about them doing that. I think it's a
fantastic idea to explore as many -- as many options as we can -- can consider to make
the -- make it clear for the public. I was wondering if -- Bill, is there -- I don't even know
if this is something that has been analyzed or look -- looked at, but what kind of -- of
cost and effort and time frame is there on the city's part to make a name change like
that? You -- you noted several different places it needs to be changed in the code, but
what does that look like for -- I imagine that there is a significant cost to the city to do
that and is -- is the city prepared to do that. It sounds like they have -- you -- the staff
has already had discussions about in the past. Should that be a factor for our
consideration?
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, not necessarily. I mean all the
changes that were already in this staff report -- so, I have done them. The applicant has
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paid a fee for us to do that work and -- and we have done that work. So, all those
sections have been addressed in the staff report. But, again, if it's your desire to hold
off or wait, you certainly have that as part of your purview tonight. You can approve a
portion of it, deny all of it, continue it, whatever you need to do in order to make a
decision on application. There is -- there is plenty of options for you this evening. Just
let us know how you want it -- how you want us to guide you and we will get you on the
right path.
Perreault: Okay. The applicant had mentioned that they had had discussions with staff
about the PUD process and it being complicated for these specific items with the private
roads and the common driveways and had indicated that maybe the staff perhaps
agreed that that is a complicated process for those specific items. Is -- is that the case
and can you shed some more light on that and is there possibly another process or
could that process be made more streamlined without agreeing to do -- to make the
code change in this way?
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, we talked about multiple options.
We talked about a variance. We talked about a planned unit development. We talked
about them modifying their plat and losing lots, so that they could fit the homes on the
parcels. We talked about them attaching the homes and having zero lot lines and, then,
a lot of these setbacks don't come into play and we can -- we can get it to work with the
current code. Again, you heard from the applicant. It is their desire to have a detached
product on these lots and so in their minds this seemed to be the least path of
resistance for them to get -- for the result they were going after this evening. I agree
with the applicant, we don't do a lot of planning of developments, because a lot of times
developers can fit their developments within the context of our code. The planned unit
development is to have something innovative and creative and flex -- and provide that
flexibility to the developer, not necessarily to be used to get out of dimensional
standards of the zoning district in which they are applying for, it does come with more
open space, more amenities. It comes with a mix of unit types that you need to be as
part of the development. So, there -- there are some challenges and some hurdles to
that ordinance that we didn't fully vet and say whether or not their Movado Village or
their Eastwich project would fit within the context of a PUD, but we did talk about that
and, again, this was -- seemed to be the logical conclusion that we came to is you can
process a change and see if there is an appetite for that. Now, I will point out to you
that the Comprehensive Plan -- I don't -- going back to Commissioner Yearsley's
comment, I don't see us changing our land use designation in the Comprehensive Plan.
That discussion's never come up -- at least on any knowledge to me as I'm aware of.
So, I don't -- again, I don't see that being out of context with the zoning ordinance when
-- if and when that goes into effect. But it does go to the point of the neighbor saying
let's -- let's pause, let's look and see what's going on and I bring that to your attention,
because, you know, we take it serious and I -- I don't want the community to feel that
they don't have a voice and they do and that's why I'm glad they are here this evening. I
want it to be transparent and I want you guys to make the best decision. So, that's why
in my analysis of this zoning change I tried to put it all in context with you, that there is
other things that need to be considered here than just what the applicant's proposing.
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And so staff has not contacted the assessor's office and let them know this was coming.
What will happen is if it's approved an ordinance gets sent to them and they get in their
system and they do a quick query in GIS and they change the zoning, what residents
may not understand is when they get their tax assessments or they have a zoning on
their parcel they are going to say what does R-LD mean now? I had R-4 before. And
so that -- that's why I bring that up to your attention. It's not that it's a hard process to
do it, it just -- it could add some confusion and complicate things if it's not rolled out
properly. That's why I bring that to your attention. But going back to your point, the
drainage -- again, the drainage and the grading ordinance, we just don't have it and I
can tell you from my experience with it it continues to be an issue for the city and it's --
it's not a good feeling to tell someone when they call you that you don't have a code to
protect them or just to help them in that. It's a civil matter, not a city issue. It's not a fun
thing to communicate to -- to our residents. So, it's something that -- and this is things --
this is something that we discussed as they were considering this proposed amendment
and so they were asked to try to share -- shed some light and least explain to you on
how they would address drainage and grading for this particular development.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: Just a follow up to that, Bill. As the applicant talked about is they have had
this design, the drainage is incorporated into the design, which it needs to be, because
of the -- the zero lot lines. But based on the ordinance it says nothing about storm
drainage, you know, how do we accommodate, you know, that -- that -- and that's my
concern about the dimensional standards is it doesn't speak to any of that and -- and
ultimately my concern is -- is -- is how do we have enough teeth that somebody else
doesn't come in and just build this without actually doing their due diligence to make
sure that, you know, they -- they have accommodated for a lot of this. Is -- is there a
way, I guess, that we can accommodate that and everything?
Parsons: Madam Chair, Commissioner Yearsley, in a typical subdivision -- so, let me
elaborate a little bit more on the code. There are requirements in the code that says
you need to retain drainage on your property. Provide adequate area for drainage.
That's all it says in code. And, then, in the subdivision ordinance -- section of our
ordinance it speaks to providing facility and drainage easements along property
boundaries to try to convey or capture that drainage. Beyond that that's what we have
in the UDC and, then, all of it -- the rest of it falls to the building code, which I think the
applicant, in my discussions with them, they were comfortable with just allowing the
building code to speak to those requirements. As part of this amendment if you look at
node number three here in front of you, we asked the applicant to go to the county
surveyor and see if we could just have some kind of blanket drainage easement across
the developments and if that could suffice for their need as part of their development
and this is some of the language that they proposed. Keep in mind as Laren pointed
out in his testimony -- can't say one hundred, but most of the time these standards
would apply for private street -- in a private street is -- the drainage, right, it's not a
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public system, so they are going to have to design that entire development on a private
draining system, because none of it's going to be public. But how that works I'm not -- I
don't have the expertise to tell you how that works or what -- what safeguards we need
to put in place for that.
Yearsley: Well -- and I read that -- that drainage easement, but, you know, for me
personally as an engineer, trying to drain -- if you're in the center of that property and
trying to get water from there to where you want that to be conveyed to, that's a lot of
slope that you're having to drop and you're having a lot of exposed concrete or it's going
to look really kind of funny without actually proper piping and associated with that, which
this says nothing to that and that's -- that's my concern with what they are -- what they
are asking for is -- is -- I guess I'm just struggling of -- of how to make sure we protect
the public, because, like I said, I live in a large subdivision and we see it all the time
that, you know, we have got ponding as the two properties come together, there is kind
of a low spot and water doesn't go anywhere and so, you know, this can be a lot worse
if someone just puts downspouts in the corner there and you have four downspouts
coming in at one spot and all of a sudden you have got a mess and so those are some
of my concerns. And -- and maybe, you know, personally -- if we continue it, you know,
for a little bit, allow the applicant to show what he's proposing, you know, in a larger
scale than just the little map, I may have a better feel, may have a better comfort and
we can maybe work out something that's more agreeable to everybody. I -- I personally
feel that these two applications should be separated, because they are totally talking
about two different items and -- and, you know, at this point I would potentially -- if I had
more comfort on the dimensional standards I would be more comfortable approving that
and having maybe the naming convention come out as more of -- as part of the
Comprehensive Plan. So, you know, that's kind of where I'm leaning is is I don't feel like
I'm comfortable with both of these applications combined.
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, right now they are married
together, but we can certainly open up the public hearing and see if the applicant's
willing to give you -- see what's the more important issue for them. Is it getting the
setbacks, the dimensional standards approved, or the naming convention approved at
this point. They have the ability to withdraw that request and you can continue the other
portion to get more information and, then, it could go forward. I don't know if they have
an appetite for that or not or if that's something you want to entertain, but certainly you
can have further discussions or just continue it all and we can get you some more
answers to it and -- at a later date.
Yearsley: Well -- and my personal opinion is -- is we can deny the one and approve the
other as part of our motion, too. So, we have those options and so my -- my -- my -- my
thinking, my -- you know, at least my thought process is is maybe continue it out to a
certain point to allow the applicant to put together a presentation to show how this -- in a
more larger scale might work to get some level of comfort and maybe talk through that a
little bit better and, then, we can decide how we want to move forward at that point is --
is my thought, at least on the dimensional standards, because my opinion -- my guess
is he's trying to build something that he can't build right now, because he doesn't have
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the -- the correct dimensional standards for what he's wanting to build and -- is my
opinion, which, you know, if we can figure out some way to make that work I'm -- I'm
happy to do that.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: You know, the point that was made a little bit earlier, too, about adding in
some language about private streets and common driveways might encourage some of
those developments to continue moving forward. We might see more of those kind of
applications. I don't know if there is something we can do to put in there that there is a
case-by-case analysis on private driveways or -- or private streets or common
driveways, if that's something we can consider in the future, but I feel much more
comfortable evaluating on a case-by-case basis with each project and what their merits
are.
Parsons: Commissioner Holland, you bring up a good point and I did want to go on the
record just to let you know that typically in the code common driveways aren't allowed
-- are prohibited off of private streets. In this particular case the applicant did receive
alternative compliance, which is the case-by-case scenario that you're speaking to and
the director did approve of that. So, yes, we have that latitude in code. So, just
because you got it approved -- again, the alternate compliance process is case by case
whether or not it's in the best interest to do something like that. So, I did want to just go
on the record and let you know that it's not ideal to have common driveways off a
private streets and the code doesn't -- unless you go through that alternate compliance
process.
Perreault: So, Commissioner Holland, are you asking -- is there a way -- I think what
you're saying is you would like -- you would like a way for that to be filtered out before it
gets -- the applicant has to go -- come to us to say we don't really like this overall
design, is -- is there a way to start that a little bit earlier in their discussions with staff so
that they are not -- is that what you're saying?
Holland: Yeah. That's definitely part of it.
Perreault: Okay. And that goes along with Commissioner Yearsley's comments about
having teeth in -- a way to protect the public and -- without necessarily having to go
through a PUD process.
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, you know, every time we -- we
pre-app with applicants, so before it even gets in front of you we are -- we are letting
them know if we like the design, if we can support what they are proposing, so -- and if
we can't we tell them that and, then, tell them to come back. I can -- the recent example
that I can share with you was Rockbury Townhomes. I don't know how many versions
we looked at that, but they came back multiple times and we finally landed on
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something that we could support. I think this Commission did support this developer's
applications when they came through. And the comp plan supports diversity in our
community. I think even the residents of Meridian support housing diversity in our
community, just not all the developments have to be the same and they have to be in
the right and appropriate locations. So, in my opinion, I think we do have flexibility
already in the code to do it on a case-by-case basis just on what I testified on
previously. So, I don't -- I don't think we need to add anything further, but we can
certainly -- if you need more comfort level than that I'm open to ideas or suggestions.
But now it sounds like Commission is leaning towards a continuance to get more
information.
Perreault: So, as far as the name changes, you were talking about whether we
continue to get more information or whether we deny -- and we could make a motion, I
suppose, for one of -- you know, or a recommendation to City Council to recommend
one and deny the other. But as far as the name changes go, it sounds like we are
pretty much in agreement that we think that's best for the public, understanding to roll
that out after the comp plan or at the same time and so then -- I mean we would -- we
would need to deny it, because we don't know the time frame.
Wilson: And I'm good with that, unless we are just thinking to continue to -- you know,
we might -- yeah, I think that -- I mean that's where we want to go. I think. I mean in
terms of not undermining the process of the comp plan and the education of the comp
plan and sort of -- I think that that makes a lot of sense.
Yearsley: And I do, too, but I -- you know, I think -- you know, I -- you know, at this point
I don't know if we need to make a motion to deny. My thought was maybe let's dive into
this a little bit better and make sure we feel like we understand at least -- the
dimensional standards at least at this point and, then, maybe we can -- in the motion we
can approve this portion and, then, deny the next, you know. Or if the applicant wishes
he -- maybe he can withdraw his -- that portion of the application. So, there are -- there
are options without just a flat out denial. Like I said, I don't -- I don't feel comfortable
moving this until I at least have a better feel of how this would actually look in -- in a real
kind of life environment. So, I would be amenable to at least giving the applicant some
time to -- if he would -- if he's interested to bring back some more information to try to
show examples or -- or how this would actually fit in a certain situation.
Perreault: So, Bill --
Holland: Madam Chair, one more comment, too. I think with the -- the naming
conventions I would almost feel better if we continued it to the point where the applicant
could talk about it with the Comprehensive Plan committee and they could come up with
a consensus on what they want those naming conventions to look like.
Perreault: Okay. Bill, as far as -- when -- when we are making a motion on this do we
need to specifically go through each -- each change that the applicant is proposing? I
know we don't need to address each one, but -- but if we have changes that need to be
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made -- like say to number three, number four, do we need to specifically go through in
the motion and state those on each particular case, each particular issue or is it just to
recommend approval, denial, continuance.
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, this is a little unusual
circumstance, because there are really no conditions, right, to amend or --
Perreault: Right.
Parsons: -- change. Either you support staff's changes or if you don't, then, you say
you want that modification based on some of the ideas that you're having this evening.
Perreault: Okay.
Parsons: You will have to go through each individual one and address that -- just
address the things that you think you want -- you want modified before it gets to
Council.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Parsons: If you're going to be specific as to why you're continuing it and for what
reason.
Perreault: Okay. And it sounds like we may need to reopen and ask the applicant if
they are willing to continue if that motion is made.
Parsons: I -- Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, I just asked the applicant and
he sounds like he has a lot of the information that you requested already prepared. He
feels confident he could have something for you for the November 1st hearing, if you
would be willing to entertain that.
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: So, looking at the second half of this application, the -- the only thing I would
want to spend some more time on -- and I'm leaning towards continuing to see what
other cities have in their code on what they -- what they put in there related to private
streets, common driveways, rear setbacks for their R-15 or their multi-family
developments, just so we could kind of have something to compare apples to apples
and see what other communities are doing. Maybe do a little bit more best practice
research.
Perreault: Commissioner Holland, is that something you would want the applicant to go
do or are you suggesting the staff or we -- or everyone? Had a great question.
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Holland: I think I would like to see more information. I don't know -- I would be happy to
do some research on my own, but if the applicant or staff had any recommendations
there of what they have seen in other places I would be open to hearing that.
Perreault: Okay.
Pogue: Madam Chair, I would recommend you direct staff and/or the applicant to do
that research and bring it back, because we are in a public hearing.
Perreault: Okay. Thank you. Are we at the point where we are ready for a motion?
Yearsley: Well, I was just looking at this. If -- if we -- if we do ask staff to go look, I don't
think the November 1st hearing date would actually be appropriate. You know, it's
going to give them a very short window to actually go and look at the other stuff or even
the applicant to look at what the other entities are doing and, then, also there are five
applications already on the November 1st, so maybe the November 15th might be a
more appropriate window.
Wilson: I think that makes sense, particularly thinking there might be some public
interest I think this time around and we just want to make sure there is that room.
Yearsley: So, if you -- you actually had more interest in some other stuff, so if you
wanted to make that motion I would support that.
Holland: Trying to figure out how to say the motion. Would it be of our best interest to
have the applicant put together more information about what other cities have done or
should we have the staff research that for us?
Yearsley: I would actually think that might be something more appropriate for staff, to
give a more unbiased opinion of what other entities do and, then, actually ask the
applicant to provide more of a detailed situation in that respect. I think it might be a -- a
better way.
Perreault: I agree.
Holland: And, then, what did we think -- what did we decide on the first part of this? Do
we want to continue the same conversation to that date? Maybe it would be the whole
file number --
Yearsley: Well, it's -- it's the entire file.
Holland: Right.
Yearsley: So, the big question is -- is if we -- we continue it only for this reason, we are
not going to hear -- you know, the intent is we wouldn't hear more testimony in regard to
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the naming convention is the only thing. You know, we would be continuing it only for
the
purpose of this portion of it, not the naming convention. And so -- unless there is
something that -- if you want to leave it open to allow public testimony on the naming
convention we can -- you can add that in there as well, which would that open it to pretty
much --
Holland: So, one more question for staff or for Andrea here. If -- in this motion is it
possible, since we have all kind of talked about postponing the change of naming, to be
more time with the Comprehensive Plan update. Can we make that in -- that
suggestion in this motion to continue that piece of it and separate -- and separate it out
from this application or does it still need to stay combined? Does it make sense what I
am asking?
Pogue: Combined. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking, too, Bill.
Parsons: Yeah. Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, it's -- it's one application
at this point. You can't just bifurcated it now and move one piece ahead or continue a
portion of it and, then, continue a piece of it.
Perreault: The challenge with continuing is that -- that gives the impression that the
applicant can spend time with staff, come back with some name change ideas and,
then, we are going to vote on that when, really, that's not what we are intending. The
intention is to -- to wait until the Comprehensive Plan is -- or -- I mean the discussions
can be had, but to really wait to make the final decision on the name changes until
closer to when the comp plan is complete. So, I don't -- I don't know how to handle that
from a timing standpoint.
Parsons: Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, as I have -- as I have testified
earlier, is your motion just has to say what you want to discuss on that hearing. So,
what I heard is you want staff to do more research on setbacks for R-15 developments
or medium high density residential developments. Have a comparison between what
the applicant's proposing and what other jurisdictions are doing. And, then, you also
want the applicant to show a bigger -- a site plan showing how this works in a bigger
context and how they are going to address the drainage.
Perreault: Thanks, Bill.
Holland: All right. With that I move to continue file number H-2018-0091 to the hearing
date of November 15th for the following reasons: That staff would come back with more
detail on what other cities have done related to setbacks, specifically an R-15 or
medium high density residential zones.
Pogue: Commissioner Holland, I hate to interrupt, but we have to first move to open the
hearing for the purpose of continue and, then, give your motion.
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Yearsley: And I think the file number is 59 instead of 91.
Holland: Sorry. I'm reading off the wrong one. Sorry. Thank you for that correction.
Yearsley: Madam Chair, I move we open the public hearing for file number H-2018-
0059.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to reopen the public hearing for H-2018-
0059 for the purpose of continuing the hearing until November 15th, 2018. All in favor
say aye. None opposed. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Holland: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Holland.
Holland: I move to continue file number H-2018-009 to the hearing date of November
15th for the following reasons: That we would ask staff to do some research and
provide additional information on what best practices are around setbacks in R-15 and
high density residential developments and that the applicant would come forward with
some additional information and site plans on how the proposed changes would look
and appear and address that to the -- to the Commission and we would only be opening
up the public hearing for the second half of this application.
Yearsley: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to continue the public hearing for H-2018-
0059 for the stated reasons. All those in favor? None opposed. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
Yearsley: Madam Chair?
Perreault: Commissioner Yearsley.
Yearsley: Barring no other comment, I move that we adjourn.
Wilson: Second.
Perreault: It has been moved and seconded to adjourn the public hearing for October
18th, 2018. All those in favor say aye. None opposed. Motion carries.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda November 1, 2018 – Page 62 of 137
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MOTION CARRIED: FOUR AYES. THREE ABSENT.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:19 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
APPROVED
S CA PE AU -AC INGCHAIRMAN DATE APPROVED
ATTEST:,
C. JAY COLE CITY CLERK
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