CC - Minutes from June 6 discussionMeridian City Council
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Roll Call: Bird, yea; Borton, yea; Cavener, yea; Milam, yea; Palmer, yea; Little Roberts,
yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
G. Public Hearing for 2017 UDC Text Amendment (H-2017-0044)
by City of Meridian Planning Division
1. Request: Text Amendment to Certain Sections of the UDC
Pertaining to Definitions; Allowed Uses in all Districts;
Specific Use Standards (Home Occupation and Retail Store,
Wine and Beer Sales and Servings); Surety Agreements
and Establish New Definitions and Regulations to Allow the
Operation of Food and Beverage Products Processing ,
Minor in the Commercial, Industrial and Traditional
Neighborhood Zoning Districts
Bird: Item G, public hearing for 2017 UDC text amendment, H -2017-0044 by City of
Meridian Planning Division. I take it that's you, Caleb? Thank you.
Hood: Yes, sir, Mr. President. Sure you want to roll right into this one or do you guys
need a five minute break or something? Are we good? Rolling on. Okay. So, this next
item on your agenda is UDC text amendment. We in the planning division -- I have
been working with Code Enforcement and Legal and Building Division staff. We have
shared the -- the proposed changes that I'm going to run through this evening with our
developer group to review code changes, as well as BCA. We did not have an in-
person meeting. Most of the things we are going to talk about tonight are -- don't really
pertain to our regular customers, our developer committee that we established to look at
our -- our UDC code, but we did vet these through them and share them with -- with our
developer group to review the code amendments. So, there is really three subsections
that -- that all of the amendments can fall under and I think I'm going to kind of take
them -- lowest hanging fruit, if you will, to maybe the most controversial as of today. So,
bear with me a little bit. But, again, there are really kind of three different subtopics
within the proposed zoning ordinance amendment. So, the first one is to update --
Palmer: Mr. President? Caleb -- if I might --
Bird: Mr. Palmer.
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Palmer: My computer doesn't -- isn't tonight letting me switch over to the computer, so I
don't know if you might be able to have it on the display. I would have printed it off had
we known our 300,000 dollar investment wasn't going to pan out tonight.
Hood: I will -- I do plan on using this to -- to go through and highlight some of this. I'm
not going to run through all of the changes, but there are definitely some sections that I
want to highlight for you -- for you all. I'm going to start with another document I think
first when I get there, but -- so, hopefully, everybody can see that. So, again, kind of
three different subsections within this. The first one, again, has to do with updating
certain sections of the UDC that pertain to timing for occupancy and building permits.
So, over the last several months we have had some requests from developers to kind of
do things out of order, get occupancy before all the improvements were made or get
building permits before a plat records and we have had this discussion. We told you we
are going to bring a code amendment back to you to kind of put it more in chronological
order, because it was -- it was sort of this, but, then, it talked about this, which really this
happened next and so, really, what you see in Section 11-5C-3 -- let me jump there real
quick and I think it's at the very end. It's mostly the same information. But, again, it
reorders these things to be in a more chronological order about talking about us not
issuing building permits for life safety things versus if they are non-life safety issues we
can go ahead and issue these, provided we have a surety in place. So, hopefully, this
makes it clear to developers and applicants that there is a difference between us
needing landscaping being in and us needing roads to be in with fire hydrants. So,
again, hopefully, this is ringing some bells and -- and you recall this -- this discussion
from a couple of the applicants. But, again, essentially, the information is the same, we
have just reordered it again to generally follow a chronological order, so -- and, then,
this sentence right here just aligns with current practice and resolutions that says that
the performance surety is established -- the 110 percent or 115 or 120 percent is
established by you all by resolution. So, that's kind of the first -- again, that's the --
that's to me the simple one. No one has really commented on that. Hopefully that helps
clarify when you can ask for things out of order in our process. A second subtopic has
to do with incorporating new standards for food and beverage products processing. So,
we are getting enquiries -- particularly in downtown, but other parts of town, too, for
some microbreweries and our code right now really doesn't address microbreweries or
distilleries or even wineries, but that's something that's becoming more and more
popular and so we were -- we have been asked and -- and kind of saw the need to
address that in our code. So, what you see is really several different changes. So, we
have added definitions for things like distilleries, winery, brewery and what that means
and we put parameters around that and so, okay, if you're going to be a brewery -- a
brewery is you're producing a beer. If you're a microbrew -- microbrewery you're -- you
know, generally it's a smaller operation. I think we limit it to 5,000 square feet and it's
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mostly tables and chairs with, you know, brewing kind off on the side. You're not Coors
brewing with a couple of bar stools at somewhere to say, oh, this is -- it's more -- it's the
opposite; right? So, we say you're food products processing if what your -- your main
use is producing this and I'm shipping it to -- and the retail is somewhere else versus I'm
more the tasting type of a room and I do that here, but it's more of a craft brewery type
of a thing. So, again, we have got definitions and processes and in what zones we
believe that's appropriate to do that and not do that. It also clarifies some -- an existing
definition. So, right now one of the issues we have -- one of the things we discussed -- I
shouldn't maybe call it an issue, but there is some gray area in our code between
restaurants, drinking establishments, which common nomenclature is bar. So,
restaurants, drinking establishments, and retail wine sales and service -- sales and
serving. So, in the retail component we allow you to have drinks -- again, tastings.
Sometimes that maybe gets clouded in, okay, what are you mainly doing? Is your main
business retail sales for somebody to go and purchase off -- you know, drink off site or
are you a bar and maybe they can take a Growler home. You know, that's the -- so,
what we have tried to do in this code is clarify that, say if you're doing this, this is what
we are going to call you. If you're doing that, this is what we are going to call you, you
know, or define you and -- and in the schedule you say you're allowed or you need a
conditional use permit and so on and so forth. I will just pause and let you know in that
section of the -- in those -- in that vein of changes at the Planning and Zoning
Commission they had some concern -- we discussed anyways, so that same topic that I
just mentioned, retail beer and wine, sales and serving. So, that's 11-4-3-44. So, here
is -- so, everything in this chart that's just black and white is currently adopted code.
Anything that's got red and underlined is new proposed text. So, the one that they
wanted to talk about and we are questioning -- and I really don't have the right answer
and I'm -- they bring up some good points, although at the end of the day they didn't
strike this. But, again, we are trying to blur -- trying to make -- to provide more clarity
and not blur the line between so much -- this is meant to be a retail store, a wine bar,
that you can have a tasting of some wine, but it's not really a bar, if that makes sense.
That's kind of what this definition is and we said, okay, if you're mainly retail, we thought
you shouldn't be having live entertainment. That seems to blur that line. You're now
moving more towards being a bar if you're having -- they said, well, what about
occasionally? You know, spring release or something, they have -- I'm like I think that
would probably be okay, although this is pretty black and white that says it's prohibited.
So, again, that was the topic of discussion. Everything else they were proposing to kind
of, again, clarify these different land uses and say, okay, you're a restaurant, you're a
bar, you're a retail group. So, I just call that one out, because, honestly, that one to me
is marginal, too. I'm just trying to give you a little peek behind the curtain of our thought
process and we thought that was -- that was appropriate of staff to where to draw that
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line. I see Councilman Cavener reaching for his microphone. So, I don't know if he's --
feel free to interrupt.
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Clarifying question to help me kind of wrap my head around these Growler
Guys on Overland at Locust Grove. Based on this would they be considered a retail
store for wine and beer or would they be considered a bar?
Hood: So, I will be honest -- and I don't know if this is a confession or not, but I have
never been in, so I don't really know what their business model is. We can go to the --
we can go to the -- the definitions. But, again, that's -- that's the idea here. You -- as
the business owner or applicant, you tell us what you are and we will say, okay, you can
be that, here is the rules. You play by them if that's what you want to be. So, if you're
going to be -- there is a bar, a drinking establishment -- so, again, if that model is mainly
Growlers to take away, but you can sit there and have a pint , we would call you retail
wine and sales and servings. The other thing with that -- and we didn't dwell on it, but
there is an hours of operation limitation that typically you don't want to call yourself that .
If you're really going to be a bar, most people are going to stay past 10:00 o'clock.
Cavener: 10:00 o'clock. Sure.
Hood: So, that's the other reason we are, you know -- and, again, I don't know about
Growler Guys, but that -- that model for a drinking establishment or a bar -- most of
them are going to call themselves a drinking establishment or bar or restaurant. The
backstop we kind of have with the restaurant definition is got to go through the state of
Idaho --
Cavener: Right.
Hood: -- and they check your receipts and so you can't just call yourself a restaurant,
but only serve pretzels -- you know, you got to have some food receipts to back that up
to say, okay, I'm serving food and can clarify yourself as a restaurant. So --
Cavener: Fair enough.
Bird: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions?
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Milam: Mr. President?
Bird: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: Sorry, Caleb, but that one really kind of caught me up on -- I was thinking of --
what I had in mind is the Boise Co-op. They are a retail establishment. They sell beer
and wine. They also sell pre-made food and have tables for people to sit at . They do
wine -- I know they do wine tasting.
Hood: I don't know if that's the end of the statement or if there was a question.
Milam: So, what, what would they be? Where would they fit into that?
Hood: So, they are a retail -- I mean their main use, though, is a grocery store. Retail
establishment. It's not unlike -- you know, we do have other banks, financial institutions
within those same buildings and they -- you know, it's blurring the line. Growler stations
are in a lot of grocery stores now. So, that component is still allowed. Your principally
permitted use is still a grocery store or retail store. So, we look at -- again, same thing
kind of with the brewery or microbrewery, what are you mainly doing?
Milam: I just thought it said something like you cannot sell -- serve food. That was the
part that I was looking at was where it said that you could not serve food under retail.
Nary: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. President, Council Member Milam, I can maybe add a little bit to that portion
of the discussion. So, in the state of Idaho there are two different types of licenses.
There is liquor by the drink and, then, there is beer and wine. The state regulates all
liquor by the drink and they regulate it both with drinking establishments that only serve
liquor and they basically have one set of rules and the easiest one to remember is bars
can allow smoking, restaurants can't. So, if you're a restaurant you have to sell -- 40
percent of your sales have to be non-alcohol-related and you can serve food or not, but
generally you do and that's how you get your 40 percent. You can serve food in a bar.
You can serve a full-scale menu in a bar. The difference of the bar is it's -- there's no
one under 21 is allowed and smoking is allowed and it's not considered a restaurant. It
doesn't mean they can't serve food. They can still serve food. The co-op has a -- a
beer and wine license for retail and they also have a beer and wine license for serving.
So, they have both at that location. Some places have only beer and wine licenses for
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retail sales. There is provisions in the code to allow beer tastings and wine tastings
without an additional license, because it's considered to be infrequent and they already
have a license to sell it and the -- where we are trying to get some clarity and what we
work with planning on is we have some of these places that want to create this sort of
hybrid model. They want to be a store, but, then, they want to have a sit down menu.
Well, as Caleb said, that 10:00 o'clock is really the backstop that the city uses to say,
okay, you're mostly a store, because if you're serving food just until 10:00 o'clock, it
doesn't have the same impact on the businesses or the surrounding neighbors as it
would be if it is a full-scale restaurant with a bar that's open until 2:00 in the morning.
So, those are the kind of ways we sort of differentiate between those. So, you're
allowed to serve food, that's not an issue. But, again, if you want to be a restaurant and
you only serve peanuts and pretzels, you're not going to reach that 40 percent threshold
and the state's not going to certify you as a restaurant. Does that help at all?
Little Roberts: Mr. President?
Bird: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: Sorry. Along that line with the co-op and, then, New Vintage Wine is the
other one that comes to mind, that do tastings on occasion and occasionally when they
do that have live music. So, does that -- with no entertainment, does that shut down
that ability to have the two hour wine tasting event and cannot have entertainment or
not -- not do it or they are risking their license?
Hood: So, what would -- well, the last part of that I guess -- maybe I will let Mr. Nary
address, because I'm -- I don't work with ABC quite as much on risking their license. I
was going to answer your question --
Little Roberts: Okay. I will take the last part off.
Hood: Maybe another way, just to -- I believe, even if -- even if this gets approved the
way we are proposing it through the clerk's office, I think you could still get a temporary
use to have that -- that -- and it's not temporary use, but the -- maybe C.Jay can help
me -- I mean Mr. Clerk can help me out with -- not a citizen's use permit, but like a
catering permit or have the live music through another limited duration type of permit to
allow that -- particularly if it's going to be outdoor live entertainment. So, I think there is
sort of a work around, even here, although we haven't -- I haven't discussed that with
legal -- I think through our clerk's office and, again, a temporary use permit type of a
permit, you can do those types of things still. My interpretation of that, as overseeing
the planning department is that would not be in violation. If the clerk issues a three day
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permit to have, you know, spring release and you have some live music and stuff as a
three day limited duration type of an event, that does not conflict with this. This is
meant to say can't have Wednesday and Saturdays being, you know, karaoke night,
because that is not a retail store.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, I could help add to that. So --
Bird: Mr. Nary.
Nary: -- to go back to your last question. So, a liquor catering permit is what Caleb is
talking about. That's only a service issue in regards to serving alcohol. So, they
already have the ability to serve alcohol. So, I'd have to check -- and I can't remember,
but either a TUP or a special event activity could be allowed in a place that normally
doesn't allow that, because that's -- that's what the purpose of those permits are for.
But violating the UDC doesn't affect your liquor license. So, with the state or with the
city. So, those are -- those are two separate animals that we deal with. W e deal with
UDC through code enforcement, we deal with the permitting through the clerk's office
and the ability to revoke that permit or through the state.
Little Robert: Thank you.
Palmer: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Mr. President, while I understand -- and correct me if I'm -- if there is more to it,
but as I understand it, in order to have live entertainment is to assist in defining what
the establishment is, but while doing so it creates additional regulation, which I would
rather throw out, unless there is -- there is more to it than my simple understanding of
it.
Hood: So, Mr. President, if I can, again, D -- the proposed D to me is marginal. I think
we had good intentions. It may have some unintended consequences for, you know,
some of these wine bars that really are mainly a retail component, but they want to
occasionally have, you know, someone playing the violin while you, you know, sip your
wine or something like that. Do you know what I mean? I mean they are -- that I don't
think is an egregious land use issue that should bother your neighbors, because you got
somebody -- you know, we were just trying to kind of head that off and, again, draw that
distinction between the various uses, but if -- my heart is not broken if D gets struck,
because I think it could have potentially, again, some unintended consequences or
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making more bureaucracy for them to obtain another permit to do that event and have
somebody play the cello or whatever.
Milam: Mr. President?
Bird: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I'm still looking at this -- this same one, the D and E. I just don't see what either
one of these -- how they really benefit -- there are already so many restrictions. I don't
see what is gained by adding those on there and -- yeah, unless you have a good
example of something that's really going to make a difference on, it's just like
Councilman Palmer said, is this additional bureaucracy that -- and laws that we don't
necessarily need.
Hood: So, Mr. President, I don't want to get too specific with any one business,
because it's not just one, but we have had some folks that -- depending on where they
are at in their zoning, will call themselves this, but are a bar. I mean nine out of ten
people would say that's a bar, even though they are complying with maybe A, B and C,
their sales -- and we don't check sales and I don't want to check sales . I don't want to
check receipts. You could call yourself a retail store and operate, essentially, like a
drinking establishment if you're staying open until 10:00 or 10:30 or maybe even 11:00,
who really checks it; right? I mean to be honest. So, we are getting some of those folks
that come in and are skirting these or -- or not fully complying with that or calling
themselves something they are really not by definition. So, again, that's what we are
trying to avoid is getting sideways with the state or with a proprietor and saying in year
two of your business you're -- that's not how you're operating. You're not doing this.
So, we are trying to be more up front and say you can call yourself that, but here is what
you can and can't do there, so --
Milam: Mr. President?
Bird: Madam --
Milam: And not to dwell on this too long, I'm sorry, Caleb, but -- so adding food would --
that would make them be able to call themselves a bar? Because that's what those two
items are, is music and food, and I don't see how either one of those constitutes a bar.
Hood: And I guess I look at it the other way and I say that doesn't constitute retail sales
to me. I'm looking at it the other way going, well, how is that a retail store. If you're
serving -- if you got dinner that's a restaurant. So, I guess -- that's how I'm looking at it;
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right? But, again, you guys get to make the decisions. So, if D and E go away, we are
really trying to help define that, but if you don't think it helps --
Nary: Mr. President?
Bird: We are getting -- we are getting into some Idaho liquor laws that I'm sure Mr. Nary
will tell you has got a lot of gray areas and somebody that's been a licensed liquor
dispensary -- I think that a lot of this stuff we need and I have never known where music
or food affected a beer and wine or a liquor license. I mean I don't know of any
restaurant that can't have somebody come in play music and do that. So, I don't even
know why we are treading that way myself.
Milam: That's what I'm saying.
Nary: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, I mean if -- if you would like us to go back
and -- and kind of scrub through this a little bit more -- because I think one of the things
that Caleb hasn't touched in, but we have had issues in the past is, again, not
everybody is up front on what their business -- they are doing and we have had issues
in the past and I think Mr. Bird, you remember when we had the closet bar problem,
where we had some -- little specificity in our code and people were taking licenses and
literally taking closets in a building and claiming that was a drinking establishment,
enough to preserve their license. Now, the state has cracked down on that and the
state has created some laws around that and think we on the city side also want to be
assured that people use these licenses appropriately. These are commerce and they
have a great economic impact on the city when people use them and they have a great
disadvantage to city when they don't and so what we're just trying to do is make it really
clear what kind of business they are, because where it operates is really -- it ends up
being the issue that comes before all of you. If we allow bars in neighborhoods, you're
probably going to get a lot of calls. If they start pushing that envelope, we are probably
going to get a lot of calls. So, we can certainly scrub through this a little bit more and --
and come up with some maybe better language or clearer language, but I think that was
really the intent is we are trying to make sure that those that are primarily retail stores
that have an occasional -- you can sit down and try this glass of wine before you buy it
is different. We did create some of these because of Divine Wine and New Vintage,
because of their -- their business model and I think we are just, again, trying to still
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improve that product. But we can certainly take it back to our group and talk about it a
little bit more and see if we have different language to propose to a future meeting .
Palmer: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: Mr. President. And while you do that, in my opinion , I don't see why we need
to regulate anywhere beyond A and B, because we are saying, A, if you're going to sell
beer and wine, have a permit and, B, make sure you don't break any other laws. I don't
know if the hours are that important, because the store itself could stay open beyond
10:00, you just have to stop selling alcohol at 10:00 and be open, you have a product.
Hood: Mr. President, just -- you're kind of going down the path of what Mr. Nary just
said is probably not a good idea and now I'm a retail store, which is almost, de facto, a
drinking establishment or bar in residential districts. You just opened up bars to be
principally permitted, basically, throughout the city. So, I would caution -- again, our
main backstop is C, which says you got to stop serving at 10:00. If you take that away,
then, they can stay open until 2:00 and that's a drinking establishment. Now, I would
say, well, let's get rid of our drinking establishment definition then . And I guess we
haven't even really looked at that. But I mean that's, again, what we are trying to -- lines
are blurred already.
Bird: But, Caleb, most of these -- some of these grocery stores that sell retail liquor --
beer and wine I mean -- they are open all night and I -- I have never known anybody
walk in at midnight and pick up a six pack that didn't get sold.
Hood: So, just to clarify -- so, the part -- the part that's prohibited is to have the -- the
glass after 10:00. You can go into a retail grocery store and still purchase that until
whatever the state law is. Again, in the primary use -- the primary use -- a drinking
establishment is for primarily the sale and dispensing of alcohol by the drink or glass . I
know some semantics, but these are the types of -- you know, no, I'm primarily take-
home Growlers. No, I'm primarily not. Okay. We need some more --
Bird: Let me ask you a question. I just found out a month or so ago what a Growler
was.
Cavener: I would have shown you.
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Bird: So, that's how up to date I am. Now, when you go in and get one of those, can
you sit -- like at Fred Meyers has got them and I think Fast Eddie's has got them. Can
you sit there and drink it? No, you bottle it up and you go just like a retail six pack;
right?
Hood: Yeah. They put up -- they put a sticker or whatever over the lids, so --
Bird: I just think that we are -- I know the state liquor people have inherited many gray
hairs over liquor laws.
Hood: And, Mr. -- Mr. President --
Bird: And they are short staffed, but let's let the legislature play with it.
Borton: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Borton.
Borton: This is noticed as a public hearing.
Bird: Yes.
Borton: I don't know if the members of the public are present to provide comment, but --
Bird: I would --
Borton: If they are I would be --
Bird: I think if -- if the truth be known, 90 percent of them out there are here because
they think the city is trying to eliminate home-based business and I don't think it's liquor
businesses or anything.
Hood: Yeah. So, Mr. President, we haven't -- this is only the second of the three that I
said, so if you want to take ---
Bird: Let's get it done and, then, we can let -- let's get it done, Caleb, and, then, we can
let them testify.
Hood: Okay. So, then, the third -- the third group of changes to the UDC has to do with
establishing an clear procedure for approving, revoking, modifying or denying an
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accessory use permit and these are commonly known and actually defined in our code
right now as home occupations. So, today we sort of have -- well, not sort of. We do
have three different processes for someone that wants to run a business out of their
home. We have the home occupation that -- doesn't have any customers or clients and
today what we have you do, if that's the case -- keep grabbing the wrong mouse. Is we
have you come in and sign this statement of compliance and this says -- and this is the
big one -- in no way shall the home occupation cause the premises to differ from its
residential character. But it goes on to have other things that say you can't have more
than two outgoing pick ups. Not a headquarters or main office. So, you can't be, you
know, dispatched from there. No retail sales permitted from the dwelling. There are
some exceptions to that. But we have people sign this and it's sort of the honor system.
Like, yep, I read it, I signed it, we take it in and we file it away. So, there is two -- two
people that typically use this. One is the ones that are proactive and they maybe just
move here or want to start a business and they are like, hey, what do we need to do
and it's like, well, what is your business model. Can you comply with these. If so, sign
this. The other one that typically signs this is Tom and his group make a visit to your
house, because your neighbor ratted you out and said this guy has a landscape
business and he has four people come in the morning and his fleet is there and they
dispatch from here, can you look into it. They send them to us, we say can you comp ly
with this and they say, sure, and they sign it and they continue to go on and violate the
code. We don't have anything to revoke. We didn't issue anything. They just sign
something saying, yep, I agree to be a good neighbor. They are still not being a good
neighbor. We don't have anything to take it to the next step to say, listen, you're in
violation of the code, therefore, it's a misdemeanor or -- or whatever the -- there is really
no stick there. So, really, the main purpose for this is to establish a process similar to
what we require for other home businesses, like daycares. So, for a daycare we require
you to have -- to obtain an accessory use permit. So, your daycare is ancillary to you
living in your home. Primarily it's a single-family dwelling. But you also have a home-
based business of a daycare. In that case what we require is you to get an AUP and
hold a neighborhood meeting with everybody within one hundred feet, let them know I
would like to open up a daycare, do you have any concerns, real similar to our
development process. The only thing is you guys don't see that. We approve it at the
staff level. So, we require the applicant or someone that wants to run a daycare to have
this meeting. They submit to us as the planning department -- they basically sign a
similar thing saying I agree to be a good neighbor. We issue the permit and we send
that to the neighbors, the same one hundred feet and we say we just issued a permit for
that property to run a daycare. If you have any problems you have 15 days to let us
know and you can appeal that decision. But, again, kind of same honor system. We
say you be a good neighbor, be a good daycare operator and, then, there is a process if
they want to appeal it and I won't go through all that, but that's really the model we are
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using is an accessory use permit, requiring anyone that runs -- wants to run a home
business to obtain an accessory use permit from the -- community development. That's
a 160 dollar application fee. We issue the permit basically -- and this is -- I want to run
through this, too, because these are changing. So, we need to talk about that. That's
kind of the other thing. So, really, there is kind of two pieces to this. One is the
process. It would require somebody to apply and obtain an accessory use permit for
home occupations. The other is we are proposing to tweak these standards and some
of them are more substantial than others, so I do want to run through that. But that's for
really to be consistent in our process, because right now we have this -- this form that
you can sign for free, it doesn't cost you a penny. Come in, you sign it, you're on your
way. We have the accessory use for home occupation. So, the third one is if you have
clients, customers, or employees, you can do this similar thing as daycares. You can
apply for the accessory use permit where we require you to meet with a hundred
neighbors -- or a hundred -- with property owners property within a hundred feet of your
property to explain, hey, I have got two employees that are going to come here , you got
any problems with them coming -- working at my house during the day or whatever. But
it's the same kind of vetting process through the neighborhood to see if there is any
issues with it. We don't get very many of those. Again, most people are like, no, don't
have any employees, so -- and you can have, actually, one employee -- one non-
resident employee. But it's the client's customers and employees and any variance to
that. So, again, what we are looking for is some consistency in the process, so that
when code enforcement sends somebody to planning saying, hey, you're in violation,
you can't run a business out of your home. It is a residential district, you can't run your
business, we are getting complaints, we can direct them to say, yep, if you want to run a
business here is the application you need to make sent . Essentially irregardless of the
the type of business you're running, if it's a daycare or -- and, again, we need to run
through the -- the types of use -- ancillary uses you can even have. So, that's kind of
the process side and -- and I don't know if Mr. Nary or anyone has anything kind of on
the consistency and process that we are trying to obtain from this and we do need to
spend some time on the actual standards.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council.
Bird: Mr. Nary.
Nary: So, I think -- I think Caleb's covered it really well. I mean that really is the -- the
crux of that portion of the change. It's trying to create both standards for people that
want to operate home businesses that are consistently applied across the board,
because the trouble that we end up with is -- and this is Mr. Baker and his team end up
with is how come I can't do this and that guy can do that and it looks kind of the same,
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because it's really -- the types of home businesses that occur in our city are not just
people selling products. It is people doing home repair. People doing vinyl wraps on
cars. People doing paint booths in their backyard. People making drapes in their
garage. People selling products out of their garage, like it's a retail store. So, I mean
there are a variety of different things. But when you look at it from a legal perspective ,
it's really hard to say you can make drapes, but you can't make something else. You
can sell home-based products, like -- like some of the many different types that are out
there, or you can have a garage sale every single Saturday for 52 weeks a year . So,
that's what we are trying to do is get some clarity, so that we have some way to say
here is the standard. Now, one of the things I have read in a lot of the material today
from people that are concerned is are we -- is does this code change -- and I'm probably
jumping ahead of Caleb, unfortunately. I apologize. Does this code change affect me
as a representative of some business going to somebody else's residence and holding
some type of gathering to sell products. No, it doesn't. It doesn't address that at all.
That's not what they are talking about. It is talking about if you as the representative
want to continuously use your residence as the business and operate it like a business
in the middle of the neighborhood. So, the folks that have expressed concern that I
have read today that this is affecting other businesses and how people operate those
businesses by going to other places, renting spaces or going to places -- homes and
other stuff to do this type of thing, that's not what this is about. It doesn't have an ything
to do with that. It has to do with how you choose to operate your business on your
residence and how that, then, impacts your neighbors and, again, we hear all the time
about quality of neighborhoods and wanting to maintain the neighborhood feel and
neighborhood character. We on -- on the staff side, Legal, Planning and Code
Enforcement, hear many times somebody that operates this thing, it's just me operating
one business to teach drums to people all day long. But it isn't just one person, it's o ne
person doing that, it's one person painting cars, it's another person repairing cars in the
garage and somebody else selling multitude amounts of products out of the garage.
So, it isn't one, it's usually many, and that's what we are trying to address is standards,
so that we have something to say here is what you need to do consistently and, then, if
you don't do it we have to have a means that prevents you from doing it and currently
our code is a little outdated in that regard. It was built back in, you know, 2005 when
this wasn't a huge issue and it's a bigger issue today. So, that's probably a longer
answer to that question than you wanted, but that's kind of the basis of what we are
here for, because I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding that I have read in
the last day or two about people thinking it's affecting one type of thing and it really isn't
and if the concern is it might, we can certainly talk about that. But that's really the intent
behind these changes in regards to this area.
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Bird: I got two questions and I don't know whether Caleb or Bill wants to answer.
Daycare has to be licensed; right?
Nary: No.
Bird: It -- daycares are not licensed?
Nary: No.
Bird: Holy cow.
Nary: Well, daycares above -- Mr. Bird, to answer your question more specifically,
daycares that have more than seven children have to be licensed by the state.
Bird: That's what I mean.
Nary: The city doesn't license --
Bird: No, we never license -- we never license --
Nary: The city has accessory use permits --
Bird: Yeah.
Nary: -- of different --
Bird: Yeah.
Nary: -- types that are allowed for all medium and large daycares.
Bird: I mean the state.
Nary: Yeah. Only after they --
Bird: If they have seven. Okay. I didn't know -- I didn't realize that. And, then, a lot of
the things that Caleb is discussing -- I don't know how many times we have had people
in here complaining about these and we say that -- well, that's part of your CC&Rs. You
got to take care of it and why -- why are we -- why are we -- either we enforce CC&Rs
or we let it go like it is and let the subdivisions enforce their own CC&Rs.
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Nary: Well, Mr. Bird, Members of the Council, I can possibly answer that question.
One, not every subdivision is governed by a homeowners association. So, that's one
problem. You may recall the gentleman that was in front of you a year or two ago that
had a boat that was very problematic to the neighbors and he specifically testified in
front of you I moved to a neighborhood that didn't have any CC&Rs, so I could park my
boat out here. So, there is the issues that occur of his type in areas that don't have any
other means of governance than whether or not the city ops to regulate this or not.
Hood: I will also just piggy back on that answer a little bit. There is a life safety issue to
this, too. When you talk about retail and offering the general public to come into your
home that hasn't been constructed with ingress and egress and ramps and those types
of things, you're into building code issues. So, we talked about before your alcohol laws
in the state and getting sideways with them, you're approved for occupancy to live there,
not to run a business, and if you start to run a business out of that , you're violating other
codes, again, potential life safety issues. I'm not saying people will die or what, but,
potentially, that can happen if you don't have -- you know, it's not properly designed and
depending on what you're doing in there, too.
Bird: And I don't disagree --
Hood: -- HVAC and electrical and all that stuff.
Bird: Anytime you start messing with life safety you have to come in and --
Hood: Those are typically covered by your CC&Rs. I mean that's something that
building codes and land use codes regulate is residential district is meant to live in,
commercial districts are meant to do business in.
Bird: In the essence of time, if it's okay with the rest of the Council and with Caleb and
Mr. Nary, let's let the public hearing start and maybe you can answer the questions as
they ask.
Hood: Well --
Milam: Mr. President? Oh. I have a question.
Cavener: I do, too.
Milam: I really have a question I wanted to ask.
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Bird: Okay. Go ahead.
Milam: So, this is where I'm struggling with this. And I definitely see the need for this
and I understand why you're doing it, for the most part, for the types of businesses that
that Bill talked about. However, probably 50 percent of the households in Meridian
are somehow directed -- doing some kind of direct marketing business -- to all different
extents. Some very, very minor, some might be doing very well at it. I personally -- I
get doTerra and I sell it. So, I'm breaking the law. I don't have a permit and so you
want me to come and pay you 160 dollars and I probably sell less than that a year. So,
it doesn't make sense in some situations and I and a lot of -- I know there is just so
many different uses and where I don't think that there will be a lot of traff ic and I know
they are not making stores out of their homes, but they may have somebody over to
pick something up or they might have a small gathering of people and as long as they
sell one thing, that, then, makes them a business and now we need to get a permit and
pay 160 dollars. So, that's where I'm struggling with this.
Hood: So, Mr. President, since we are confessing on the record that we are illegally
operating businesses --
Milam: I am.
Hood: -- I sell things on e-Bay. I could sell things -- no, that's not what we are talking
about. It -- you can still do those things. What we are talking about is when our code
enforcement officer gets called, because you now have an open house every day to sell
purses or lipsticks or whatever and you have turned your front room into a retail store,
we have something that says you can't have a retail store at your house. It really is so
just the philosophy of the city has been to react to those complaints. I don't know that --
and this is where I -- again, I'm looking at Tom and maybe even Bill, we are not going to
prosecute somebody for, you know, 31 or lip sense, Scentsy or -- it just doesn't -- you
know, if you're a good neighbor, the neighbors aren't going to call and rat you out and if
you do just because you don't like your neighbor and they do an investigation, they are
going to say there is no violation here. You can't tell that I sell things on e -Bay. You
know, I'm -- that's a -- is that a business because I made a buck? No. That's not -- so
that's not the intent here and so the way we have talked about it and it doesn't read -- I
mean this is technically, yes, you should pay turn 160 dollars and get a license to run a
home business. Technically you should. But I don't expect everybody -- and I wouldn't
even require everybody to do that. It's when there is that issue we have been notified
we are going to issue a permit. If we get that call again saying you have employees, we
should do a permit that says you guaranteed you weren't going to have employees or
whatever you're violating, we could revoke that. That's --
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Milam: We can't get the permit without spending 160 dollars.
Hood: That's correct.
Nary: Mr. Bird?
Bird: Yes.
Nary: Another thing I guess -- and I know you want to get to the public hearing part, so I
don't want to belabor it, but I'm the lawyer, so I have got to give you the lawyer piece.
Again, at the end of the day what we are trying to do is establish some standards and
those standards are not different than other standards that exist. There is standards for
how fast you can drive your car. There are standards when you can turn. There is
standards when you cannot turn. There is standards when you can do certain things.
Every time you violate that I guarantee you there is nobody in this room that can tell me
they got a ticket for going 56 in a 55. Right? There are limits, but yet there are
standards as to when enforcement is necessary and when it's appropriate. If the
standards that they are asking you to consider are too low, that's fine. That's part of the
conversation. If you think there is -- but if you think there shouldn't be any standards I
would be more concerned. If you think the standard should be higher when it -- when
the threshold of concern from the city should be involved, that's what we are here to talk
about. But we are really just trying to create some baseline to say this is what a
business looks like -- again, Mr. Baker and his folks don't give a lot of citations for code
enforcement. They go out and talk to people, they inform them, they educate them,
they will tell them we actually have some standards, we have requirements, you need to
do this. They spend a great deal of time educating our citizens on what -- what types of
things they can do and how to do it property. So, the concern that I have been reading
the last couple days of every person who holds a party is going to get a ticket is not a
realistic view of how enforcement occurs. And, again, if the standards need to be
higher or different, because that's where your level of concern is, that's what we are
here for.
Hood: So, Mr. President, I appreciate your -- you know, I'm not trying to delay --
Bird: No. No. Go ahead. Let's --
Hood: I just feel like if we put this -- and I have got it on the screen, but I don't -- if I can
kind of go through the proposal and, then, have people react to that.
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Bird: Okay. That's fine with me, Caleb.
Hood: I will try to -- I don't want to gloss over it, but I -- but I understand what you're
saying. People have been there for a long time this evening. So, here is really the
meat, then, of the changes we are proposing to the home occupation -- and, again
same thing. Anything in red is new proposed. Anything that's in black and white is
already on the books. So, you can see the changes -- and, again, I'm not going run
through all of them, but I will just highlight A, which says, basically, be a good neighbor.
Don't make a bunch of noise and cause smells and those types of things. B is really the
the change to B is based on the International Building Code. The International
Building Code restricts in a residential dwelling no more than ten percent or 500 square
feet, which -- whichever is more restrictive, to being set aside for a home office and I'm
going to emphasize the office part of that , because that's how the code reads in the -- in
the International Building Code. I mentioned at the beginning we have been working
with Code and Legal and Building and that's from Building. They are like technically
they should only have ten percent, not 25. So, that's the main -- that's the main change
there. That kind of dovetails in with -- with D, allowed home occupation accessory uses,
include, but are not limited to -- and so this is -- it's -- they are not all office uses. You
know, an art studio is not an office use. But those are some of the things that -- again,
this is just staff saying we think these are the -- the appropriate type of ancillary uses in
a home -- and I'm not going to read you the whole list there, but those are the uses we
are proposing would be explicitly allowed and would be explicitly prohibited, although it
doesn't list every single potential use . It's meant to give a flavor, you know, including
but not limited to. There is going to be other -- Growler fill stations weren't a thing 15 --
someone's going to come up with a home occupation thing that we didn't think of. Is it
industrial in nature? Is it more of a professional service or personal service? Are you
cutting hair? Are you doing nails? Are you a CPA? You know, those types of things
are the types of home offices that we are envisioning here. If you're repairing vehicles,
that's not what we are talking about. So, that's -- again, I don't want to beat that too
much, but that's -- D is a big one. So, that is -- lists the type of uses you -- you can and
can't do, although it's, again, not an exhaustive list. E and F -- so, F, just a real quick
point on F. Most of the last part of F it says the home occupation shall be conducted by
the inhabitants of the dwelling. But if you look at L and M, it actually allows one non-
resident employee in L, the -- the new part of that, then, is -- we didn't think it was
appropriate in multi -- so, apartment complexes to run a business. We said you
shouldn't have employees -- our parking ratios are already less in apartment complexes.
To have an employee come to an apartment complex and cut hair or whatever it is,
didn't seem appropriate. So, I did want to call that out, too, that we are -- this would be
for single family, not for multi-family. Basically prohibit non-resident employees in -- in
multi-family dwellings. So, then, jumping back up, then, to G. Really no changes there.
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It's just -- we are calling all of these accessory uses. That's what most of the changes
are here. And H is another pretty big one. So this is one where I'm going to -- Mr. Nary,
again, kind of jumped -- jumped ahead with some of the letters and I have got the list at
least as of 4:00 o'clock today everybody I received comments from. But -- but H right
now technically -- again, this is -- we have violators today. If you look at this no retail
sales permitted from a dwelling. And there are some exceptions, but the first one is get
your hair cut there and you want to buy the conditioner or the hair product, you can sell
that. You can sell them the hair products. You can't just sell hair products, you got to
cut their hair first, but, then, you can also sell them the conditioner or whatever. That's
really the -- the exception to retail sales. Two, it's something you -- sorry, I got that
backwards. That's two. One is I have honey bees and I make the honey on site and
you can -- you can have some honey or I'm a woodworker and I have some of that that I
actually make on my -- in my garage or whatever. And, then, the third one is products --
it says sold online. I think this is where we need some discussion , because this is,
again, most of the comments I have received -- and, again, confession time. My wife is
a Scentsy consultant. So, we are not -- we not saying you can't, but her parties are
people come, they look at a catalogue -- she has some samples and you could buy that
if you wanted to. We're not classifying that as retail sales. If you like the sample you
could take it home. Most -- 90 some percent are placing an order. She gets the order.
she packages it up into a little bag or whatever and delivers it. You don't get it that night
typically. And that's just my personal experience. That's how the model that I'm familiar
with works. So, that's -- three is -- this says right now on the books products ordered
online. Well, those aren't ordered online. We are in violation. They aren't ordered
online. They are ordered in person. But she's not completing the transaction at the
home, so -- we don't have customers or clients and whatever . But -- and -- and it says
by mail. So, a lot of this was added for people who are -- here is an example where this
most typically applies today. Somebody goes and buys the wine and the cheese and
the nuts or the fruit or whatever, they put together gift baskets at the house. They go
and buy these things locally or whatever and they ship Idaho Baskets of Goodies to
everywhere. You can do that. That doesn't -- the neighbors don't know that that's --
they shouldn't know that that's going on even. And that's -- again, that's the intent. I'm
going to jump back. It shouldn't change the residential character. We aren't trying to
peek in your windows to see what you're doing, but it shouldn't be egregious to the
neighbors to say, listen, they are running a business out of their home and that's the
intent. So, I'm here to say -- kind of like we did with the first -- maybe three could use
some work and massaging in that, to say, you know, parties, you know, that's -- that's
what we are -- we are not so -- we are not concerned at all, quite frankly, about the
parties. We are concerned -- and this is where the line is starting to get blurred -- the
consultant that now has, again, lipstick or whatever, converted their front room and
there is a sign out on the main drag that says open house , come to my house and buy
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lipstick or whatever, you shouldn't be doing that. So, that's where this retail component
aspect -- and that's habitual; right? That's every day or every Friday or Saturday --
every weekend it's an open house at your house -- it's not really what should be
allowed. So, that's the intent. Whether it reads that way or not, I'll let you decide that.
But that's the intent with some of these. So, just quickly moving on. That -- those are
the big ones. I and J are essentially the same. K, again, no real big changes there. M
is -- is new. The no more than two clients and/or customers. And, again, I think that's
some of the -- the concern that -- that I read that -- from when I read the letters that's
some of the concern that I actually read was they weren't so concerned about me as a
consultant going to someone else's house and having the party, it's me having parties at
my house and this one -- again, by the letter of the law you would be in violation. Are
there consultants that have parties every Saturday? Maybe. It's probably a better
question for Tom. He gets the phone calls, not me necessarily on that, but -- so that
one probably requires some more dialogue and I -- again, I imagine the people that are
here for this probably want to talk about that. So, with that -- sorry, I --
Bird: No problem.
Hood: -- tried to be quick, but there is a lot to it, so --
Bird: Thank you.
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Before you jump in, just a couple of clarifying questions that will be helpful for
me and maybe set the tone for some of the conversations we are going to have. Caleb,
you and your staff do a great job of engaging stakeholders on issues you referenced
earlier. BCA. We have got probably the most successful direct sales company in the
world in our community. Did we reach out to them, discuss this before tonight?
Hood: Mr. Cavener, no, to directly answer your question, no, we did not.
Cavener: Okay.
Hood: We definitely talked about them. Absolutely. Because that is not the intent is to
say -- because we realize -- and I don't know if it's 50 percent, but we realize that this --
there is a large majority or a large percentage of households that do this . So, it was
definitely -- I think at probably all of our meetings that came up. Hey, how is this really
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how is it going to be applied? How is it interpreted? Are we really going to say you
can have a party? No. So --
Milam: Mr. President?
Bird: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I have one more question. First a comment and, then, a question. Caleb, you
said -- so, A and B was -- said something about home office and I didn't see anything
about -- the word office in that one. Maybe I looked in the wrong place.
Hood: So, that's in the building code. So -- and if you look in B -- so, right now in the
UDC we allow up to 25 percent of a home to be used for your home business.
Milam: Yeah. It doesn't say office.
Hood: It doesn't say office, but in the International Building Code -- so, the problems we
have is our code says you can have 25 percent. You go to the building department and
say, you know what, I got to upgrade my electrical, because I need hair dryers or
whatever for my salon and they go -- we can't issue a permit for that, because that's a
commercial permit and you're in an R occupied home, we can only allow ten percent of
this. So, we are trying to be consistent and not mislead people to say, oh, yeah, just go
and convert that section of your home to a -- to commercial. You can't. Building code
will prohibit that. So, it's to line up our codes a little bit there.
Milam: My -- my question is what about -- just throwing this out there -- creating a
different type of permit that created especially for direct marketing? So, it would actually
so that we are not taking away stuff from the potential real bad kind of businesses that
we are going to get complaints from, but allowing the -- the people that are doing this to
feel -- for one, feel comfortable, for, two, not spend a fortune, have it be some kind of
simple process, but if they still have a permit and, then, can be confident about that as
well and it -- but with a little bit -- but just a little bit different guidelines. Some of the
same stuff.
Hood: I'm open -- I'm open to that and almost the model could be kind of what we do
today with this. We need to talk about that in the context of, okay, well, how do we
exclude them from -- how do we call them out separately. So, we need to kind of think
about that. I'm not asking us to, you know, come up with city code necessarily on the
fly, but let's at least brain storm --
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Milam: Yeah.
Hood: -- potential ways to do that, so -- absolutely. I'm open to -- I'm open to all kinds
of solutions. I mean this is really meant to help our code enforcement officer and the --
the neighbor that's complaining that my neighbor and we don't have any way to help
them out, where you sort of go, yep, sorry.
Milam: No. I get that. And I -- so, I support that for sure. Thank you.
Palmer: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Palmer.
Palmer: One quick question. Just on -- on E where it mentions no more than two
outgoing pick ups per day from a common carrier. So, I'm assuming that would not
prohibit -- like is in your case -- your wife delivers them. If customers were to come pick
them up, because they are not a common carrier, is it -- would it be all right if 25 people
came to pick up their orders?
Hood: Again, I would say technically probably no, but how realistic is that -- and if it
happens one time that's different. Than if it happens every day 25 people are coming to
your house to pick it up -- we had this conversation, too, with code enforcement. They
are not going to sit there and stake out a house all day long and count how many times
the UPS truck comes. But if the neighbors continually complain that says, hey, they are
having 25 people come and pick stuff up every day and they go out there for a few
hours and, yeah, there is a substantial -- we are going to say, listen, you can't have this
many pick ups per day. Is that a common carrier? I don't know. I guess that's more of
a legal question. They are not the same person. But that is retail sales. Right? And
we are in another section now that says retail sales are prohibited.
Palmer: Thanks.
Bird: Mr. Clerk, we got any sign-up for public testimony?
Coles: Thank you, Mr. President. We do. Kevin Priest signed up again and does not
wish to testify. Rebecca Priest signed up against. Does not wish to testify. Theresa
Wier signed up against and does not wish to testify. Eric Wallentine signed up against
and would like to testify.
Bird: Okay. Eric.
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Hood: So, just quickly, as he's coming up, we do have a list -- I do have a list and
typically I would read that to you of all of the public testimony we have received to this
point. I did put it in a -- a summary sheet, so I just -- if you're in here and you just
signed up and you don't want to testify, we got about 25 different letters from folks
saying they are concerned about this. So, I have got about 25 different letters from
folks saying they are concerned about this. So, I just wanted that to be on record and it
is part of the record that we have got.
Bird: And I would ask -- I would ask in the public testify -- testifying that we stay to the
subject, please. Eric. State your name and address.
Wallentine: Eric Wallentine. Address is 2886 South Tagish Way. You were my coach
42 years ago and you're --
Bird: Was it that many years ago?
Wallentine: You seem a lot shorter now.
Bird: I was a young man.
Wallentine: So, first of all, I don't -- I'm not -- I don't participate in -- my daughter just
finished participating in the multi-level marketing, so that's not why I'm here. But I found
out on Facebook that this was happening. I saw the requirement of the two, you know,
customers and immediately I thought that would have -- that would have wiped out both
if I would decide to follow the law that would have wiped out my first two businesses
that served as seed companies for the two businesses that I run today. All four have
been successful and I think that's the -- my biggest concern is I teach classes -- I'm a
facilitator right now with an entrepreneur group. I have done peer groups. I have been
on boards. And I just think, you know, we can't do anything -- we -- not anything, but we
can't do things that are going to stifle, you know, new small businesses. I mean there
are some businesses I shouldn't run out of my home, but if I read the -- the
requirements and the changes, then, I should never have run my remote control
business out of my home, because I was in my garage, you know, fixing equipment.
Now, what's equipment? Is it a bulldozer or is it a remote control? So, that's where -- if
a reasonable person -- I think that's the standard we have to take here is take the
standard of a reasonable person. If I'm a reasonable person and I read through those
rules, how many businesses are not going to start in their garages, because they read
those rules and say, oh, oh, I can't do that -- if they want to follow the law. And I don't
think we should put people in a position where they have to say, well, I'm not going to
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follow the law, I'm going to escape through and hopefully they won't catch it. You won't
catch me. You're not going to come in my garage. But the thing that -- the phrase that
really bothers me -- and I'm not picking on you, Caleb -- I just remember your name,
because that's my son's name. But the -- the phrase that really gets to me is when we
say, well, technically, no. Technically we are not going to do that. What that means is
we can do that, because you're breaking the law and that's what really bothers me. So,
the two things in this that -- I and alluded to this a little bit -- is the equipment repair and
rental. That one would have negated my first business -- or second business. The
other business I did was we did waffle irons out of our home and I would take these
waffles irons to places and you would see them in hotels where you make yourself
waffles in the morning, and we would supply things out of that and I had a delivery once
a month. It wasn't a lot of traffic. I took it to them, but I did have a couple of occasions
where I had five or six people come together to meet with me in my home. Th at wasn't
nobody knew it. My -- my neighbors didn't know it. They didn't complain. And it was
very quiet. And, then, I have a guy that lived down the street from me that drives up
and down with -- he has trucks -- he has six cars parked out front of the house all the
time, because he's doing construction. That's where his teams come and pick up their
trucks. So, there is a -- there is a clear differentiator here and I would just ask that we
that we differentiate those. I don't think two people -- I don't think two clients and their
customers is a reasonable line. That the one that really bothered me. Besides the --
the what is an equipment repair and so I think those are the two things that I -- I thought
they were D and J, but you said they were M later in the -- in the conversation. I have a
bunch of notes here, but I'm not going to read them, because I think what I just said
covers what I'm trying to say.
Bird: And your time is up, Eric, so would you summarize.
Wallentine: I don't get ten minutes?
Bird: Yeah.
Wallentine: That's it. It's just -- those two were the toughest things I -- things I had a
problem with, so --
Bird: Thank you very much.
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Yes.
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Cavener: Question if I may. You said two is not a reasonable number and I think that --
I think you see a -- with the Council you ask as a question -- you ask us a question, get
seven different reasonable answers. So, it's an arbitrary term. I'm curious to what --
what a reasonable amount of customers is to you?
Wallentine: I think it depends on how many of those people are staying -- I mean if I
have two people coming throughout the day and they are coming and going, but there is
not a stack of cars out in front of my house, I don't think anybody is going to complain
about that. I don't think a reasonable neighbor would come in and say, hey, you know,
he had eight people at his house today, but they were all there separately. Now, if I had
eight cars pull up at 8:00 o'clock in the morning -- like my business now has 110
employees. We have paydays and they all come to the office on payday. And so that's
not reasonable. I mean I'm not going to have a 110 or even ten people coming to my
home at once. So, it just depends if they are staggered. Defining that is a difficult thing
and I get that.
Milam: Mr. President?
Bird: Mrs. Milam.
Milam: I'm pretty sure -- so, it's very clear that it says two at a time. So, exactly that.
Two could be there at 10:00 a.m., two could be there at 11:00, you could have those
people coming all day, but only two at each time. So, exactly the way you just
described a good situation is what that document says.
Wallentine: The thing that ran through my mind is that I did have six people on one
occasion -- actually, a few occasions and I had five people, but it wasn't a whole boat
load of cars. I am more concerned about -- I mean I -- I do talk to these small business
owners that are just trying to get started and think they are not going to go do what I did
and rent an executive suite on my third business.
Milam: I had a business meeting at my home.
Wallentine: So --
Palmer: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Palmer.
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Palmer: Mr. President. Eric, question for you. So, having the experience that you
have, have -- running businesses out of your home and with your neighbor you said
down the street that has lots of cars there --
Wallentine: They were all legal, by the say. Every one of them was legal, so --
Palmer: And so -- I know. I don't doubt -- with that experience -- and this is also an
outstanding question that I would love to hear lots of people's opinions on,
understanding that most, if not all of you are going to say this goes too far. I'm curious if
you feel like there are -- if there is something we should do -- if we should be tweaking
this to -- to figure out ways to eliminate some of the other ones that we brought up that
have been issues or if we need to just back away and let the free market do its thing.
Wallentine: I must live in a good neighborhood, because I know that there are people
around me running businesses out of their homes and I don't see the impact of it. So, I
can't speak to that as far as what's the line -- I do have the one neighbor that -- he and I
will have a chat, but I will deal with that on a personal basis and he will have to go get
an office or he will have to go get a shop, but, otherwise, I can't really tell you what my
line would be.
Palmer: Thank you.
Bird: Thank you. Thanks, Eric. Mr. Clerk.
Coles: Cindy Lee signed up against and does not wish to testify. Elizabeth Bright
signed up against and does not wish to testify. Norman Stoddard signed up against and
does not wish to testify. Cheryl Stoddard signed up against and does not wish to testify.
Eric Ritter signed up against and would like to testify.
Bird: State your name and address, please.
Ritter: My name is Eric Ritter. I'm general counsel for Scentsy, the aforementioned
most successful direct sales company in the world.
Bird: Thank you.
Ritter: We are located at 21 -- or 2901 East Pine, as all of you probably are well aware.
As you're also probably well aware, Scentsy generates about 500 million dollars in
revenue a year that supports 840 employe es in our Meridian campus. Those
employees have an average salary of 51,000 dollars a year and our annual payroll
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approaches 43 million dollars a year and that's just at our Meridian location, that's not
our other location. We also have in Meridian 216 consultants who participate in home
based sales. Now, I want to be crystal clear that all of that success that we have had is
based on the sales of these consultants in their home and we have some real concerns
about the way this legislation is drafted, primarily along the lines of -- and the number
has changed in the various things, so let me make sure I have got it right. M -- can I
control this computer or am I -- M -- it was J in one version, L, which is multi-family use
I don't know where it is here. We have concerns about D and we have concerns
about B. So, concerns about B, D, M and L. And we have -- these concerns are the
same concerns that Eric articulated first. Number one, having a limitation on only two
clients just isn't feasible for the majority of our consultants if they are having a home
based party. They are going to have ten or 15 people there. Now, the only difference
between their parties and your neighborhood barbecue or your family barbecue on a
Sunday is the fact that there is Scentsy products there as Caleb alluded to. I think that
there is already adequate code to address the type of issues that people are
complaining about. We already have noise ordinances. We have parking ordinances.
Those are things that the city enforcement -- code enforcement officers can enforce if
those are the problems. Nobody really has a problem with people having guests in their
house, whether or not they are participating in a commercial venture. Number two, we
have concerns about the prohibition on any clients being able to participate in a multi-
family dwelling. So, you know, I look at this as sort of a regressive tax. If you're in the
lower percentage of the income bracket you're more likely to be in a residential dwelling.
If you happen to be a Scentsy consultant in that dwelling you can't ever have a party in
your house and I just don't think that creates a level playing field, it creates one that
disadvantages people that are trying to start off and get ahead. I think, finally, in D , the
limitation to ten percent, that's an International Building Code, because that's the IRS
regulation for home tax deductions. It really has no effect whether I'm using my entire
living room for a party or whether I get to use my home office, which is only a ten by ten
room. I just think that that's too restrictive and is not actually based on a life and safety
issue, but is present because of IRS regulations. And with that, like I said, I do think
there is ways to come about the actual problems. What are we actually trying to solve
here. If we are talking about cars and noxious uses, you can prohibit it based on the
type of activity. Is it dealing with hazardous materials? Does it have proper disposal? I
mean there is already regulations to cover all this. Let's enforce the regulations we
already have and not create, again, with all due respect -- technically, yes, you're
violating the regulations, but we are just going to look the other way, because at some
point somebody won't look the other way and, then, we are going to end up, you know,
hurting what has been, both in my life and the lives of all 260 consultants in the valley
and the 140 employees that are based here, a very sustaining and dearly bought living.
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Bird: Thank you. Any questions?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: The previous individual providing testimony, same question I'm going to ask
you. In your opinion what's the appropriate amount of people that should be allowed?
Ritter: Well, we have maximum occupancy standards in the International Fire Code
that's been adopted by the city based on square footage. In a residential that divisor I
think is the square footage divided by seven. So, that's what I would say. I would say
look to the code you already have. You already have maximum numbers of people.
Cavener: Thank you.
Bird: Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you for your testimony. Mr. Clerk.
Coles: Carolyn Smith signed up against and would like to provide testimony.
Bird: Okay.
Smith: Hello. My name is Carolyn Smith and I live at 2715 South Hibernation Place in
Meridian, Idaho. I have been an independent consultant for Scentsy -- independent
Scentsy consultant for eight and a half years and a resident of Meridian for 11 and a
half years and I have to reject the changes to the home based business ordinance. I
am disabled, but I don't look like I am. Working from home allows me the opportunity to
stay off disability and contribute to this community. In fact, a home -based business is
about my only option. Scentsy has changed my life for the better. It has allowed me to
stay home and raise my daughter and has given me the opportunity to help others. I'm
like so many people who cannot afford child care, so a direct sales opportunity allows
them to still contribute to the family income. And the customers who love our products
and if I had more time to prepare for tonight I could have brought some with me,
because I'm sure they would like to express that they like the convenience of being able
to come to my home. These changes currently proposed to the city ordinance scare
me. To have no more than two people allowed at my home at one time would
significantly hinder my ability to successfully conduct my business in Meridian. In fact, it
would put me out of business and I would once again have to go through the
foreclosure process and I can't go through it again. If every town across America had
similar legislation Scentsy would crumble and all of the towns to create this legislation,
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the last place I would think would be so willing to hurt Scentsy would be Scentsy's own
hometown Meridian. Hopefully it was not the intent of the planning commission to hurt
Scentsy, a company that gives so much to this community, but it was just not thought
through. Scentsy sales are significant and a large portion of their sales are generated
through customers who come to our homes and take part in our home -based parties
and open house and that includes taking product home. It's not just about ordering.
There are people who can't afford shipping -- that are going to refuse to pay shipping
and the likely convenience and want to come by and smell our products or if it's Lulu
Stockings, to feel the fabrics and so forth. Please consider how Scentsy -- how Damsel
In Distress which is also based in Meridian, how all the other home-based businesses,
such as Pampered Chef , Cookie Lee Jewelry, Mary Kay, Avon, 31, Lipsense, LuLaRoe,
doTerra, Tupperware, et cetera, bringing a lot of revenue for this community. That loss
of revenue would severely impact our city and the lives of so many families like mine.
Scentsy touts itself as family-friendly, a positive place to live and, please, please keep it
that way. Thank you.
Bird: Thank you. Any questions for the young lady?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Thank you for coming here tonight and sharing your testimony. At the
beginning of your testimony you indicated that you object to all the changes.
Smith: Oh.
Cavener: And I just want to make sure if that was your testimony, that's fine. I just -- I
wanted to give you a chance to clarify if that wasn't your intent.
Smith: I reject the ten percent. There are people who own maybe homes of only a
thousand square feet and need a home office and that's going to be more than ten
percent of their home. It doesn't affect me, but it affects others. The two people at one
time -- I do hold open houses, which I have been told is one of the situations that is
being considered against. I don't have them every weekend. Scentsy has a rule we are
only allowed to have two public open houses a month and I'm lucky if I have a chance to
have more than one a month . That does generate some traffic, but typically I have
about six people come to my house. I will have nobody for four hours and, then, three
people will show up at one time and I will be in violation. I -- sorry, I'm trying to
remember all of the rules. So, I -- obviously, one of them is not up for debate. It's
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already legislation. The retail sales. But definitely the number of people -- it is a
consideration.
Cavener: Thank you for that clarification. I appreciate it.
Smith: Thank you.
Bird: Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you, young lady.
Smith: Thank you very much.
Coles: Mr. President, the rest of the sign -ups all indicated they did not wish to provide
testify. So, I can read those names into the record if that is your preference.
Bird: If you would like to, I would appreciate that.
Coles: Absolutely. Tricia Miller signed up against and does not wish to provide
testimony. Reed Brimhall signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony.
Jeff Pruitt signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony. Robert Reeder
signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony. Heidi Thompson signed up
against and does not wish to provide testimony. Owen Thompson signed up against
and does not wish provide testimony. Elaine Anderson sign up against and does not
wish provide testimony. Kareem Betalli signed up against and does not wish to provide
testimony. Carrie Motley signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony.
Jessica White signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony. Richard
Steele signed up against and does not wish to provide testimony. Tanya Steele signed
up against, does not wish to provide testimony. Lonnie Leavitt Barker sign up against
and does not wish to provide testimony. Lisa Patton signed up against and does not
wish to provide testimony. Stephanie Marchello signed up against, does not wish to
provide testimony. And Casey Lyon signed up against, does not wish to provide
testimony. That is all the sign-ups, Mr. President.
Bird: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This is a public hearing. If you didn't sign up or -- and
would like to provide testimony, please, come forward. Come on up.
Miller: I actually wrote no, but I changed my mind. My name is Tricia Miller and I live at
2571 West Astonte Drive in the City of Meridian. I am a fairly new resident, four months
here, now in the state of Idaho. I wanted to address having an open house with some
regular hours each weekend. The last two weekends -- let me back up just a little bit. I
am an independent fashion retailer for a company called LuLaRoe, which we provide
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women and children's and men's clothing and I left a state where I had a very
established business, a very established clientele, and regular in-home parties in my
home. I came to a state with no friends, no family, just my husband and my six children.
Having open house hours has allowed me to reach out to the community with a sign
that I responsibly set out and pick up immediately when it's over in my subdivision . It
has allowed me to meet people in my neighborhood. It has allowed me to reach out to
the community and let them know -- come to my home, I can provide you with a service,
the service of clothes that make you feel amazing, clothes that make your family
pictures -- you will look beautiful. It has allowed me to be a mom. I have six children
from ages 21 down to four years old. My oldest is an autistic adult. He has a small part
time job also in the City of Meridian. He will never drive. By allowing me to have set
open house hours where I can be a mom and not have nap times interrupted or say I'm
only going to have people allowed to come over to my home from these hours to these
hours, allows me to say, hey, 3:00 o'clock, we are done, we can go to the pool or we
can go do this or my son knows on these days don't schedule to work these times,
because I cannot drive you. He will never drive. That will not happen because of his
disability. It allows me to not have to pack up 1,500 pieces of clothing that takes me
three hours to pack to leave to go somewhere else and to spend an additional two
hours setting up for a party somewhere. So, having these things in my home allows
people to come over and experienced a one-on-one personal styling session where I
make women feel amazing every single day. By taking those open house hours away
from me really prohibits my ability to show other women -- as being a leader in the
company of 80 girls underneath me, it takes away that ability to show that they, in turn,
can turn around and go make thousands of dollars every single month, which I do, and I
put a lot of money in my bank account and provide for my family where my husband
sometimes cannot. So, by taking that away in a new community, especially for me,
really, really hurts my business and clothing is much better in person. So, when people
can come over and touch it and feel it, they just love it. So, that's pretty much it. As far
as tax structure goes, that's also something right now -- I'm in an HOA subdivision, but
one day I would love to buy a home on property where I can have a Lula Cottage as we
call it and have my clothing up and have kind of a little type of boutique that people can
come into and feel like they can shop at home and as far as life safety goes, that's what
business insurance is for. Thank you.
Bird: Thank you. Any questions?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
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Cavener: Tricia, thanks for coming and providing some testimony specifically from your
industry. I became -- well, I should say my wife has become very familiar with your
company and that packages that we have at our house somewhat frequently. But as a
result I have also noticed in Meridian business owners setting up shop in parking lots
and on public streets.
Miller: Yes.
Cavener: And specifically the public streets is something that concerns me and I think
that this Council is trying to get a very pragmatic approach to some of these
presentations, but setting up a business on a public street to me is concerning and I'm
hoping that maybe you can address if that is part of the business model , if that is the
case of a bad apple or maybe I guess just address that particular element that seems to
be popping up more frequently in our community.
Miller: Okay. Well, part of the business model is creating urgency and it is creating --
we as retailers we buy wholesale, we do not get to pick the prints that we get, we can
order sizes and styles, but we do not know -- when we get a box of inventory it is like
Christmas Day to us. It is a big surprise. So, then, we turn around and we create
urgency and that is part of the business model with LuLaRoe is to get that product out
there. We only have 5,000 -- up to 5,000 of any one individual print across the board for
say this sweater. There is only 5,000 of them in the United States. That's it. So, when I
get that the need is to create urgency and get out there and get our product in front of
people, because, obviously, it's better in person than maybe my bad lighting as you
would see online on a Facebook group. Now, I apologize, because her name just
escaped me right now, but the clerk that -- so, I contacted her recently, because you
can get something called a mobile sales permit in the City of Meridian and I believe her
name is Nancy -- am I correct?
Bird: Yes.
Miller: Okay. So, I have recently contacted her. Now, that is the legal way to go about
it and she has issued some of those permits. I have talked to her extensively about it
and she has invited me personally to come and sit with her and explain more about it,
because she is getting more and more calls about this . Now, if I open my trunk and I
have a garment rack in the back of my trunk and I have clothes hanging there , I am
within the legal use of that permit to go ahead and sell out of the back of my car.
Getting those clothes out say under an easy up and setting up in a parking lot , that I am
not familiar with, unless it is something set up with the business -- that is the part that
may be does need to be addressed of what those fine lines are, because I'm very much
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a rule follower, but I'm also a fly by the seat of my pants kind of girl. So, if I had a trunk
full of clothes and people -- I'm at the park with my kids and people want to look at them
and, you know, I just start -- I have a rack and I'm just setting him up, I'm going to do it if
I don't think that I'm breaking any rules , but I don't and I have not yet, because I don't
feel like -- I didn't know -- I honestly did not know the laws or the rules in regards to that.
So, maybe something like that can be put in place. But, again, it's going to -- you're
getting now down to a LuLaRoe Consultants can, but maybe Scentsy consultant can't or
Tupperware -- you know, if you don't want to get into all this, you know, picking and
choosing on which businesses can and can't.
Bird: Thank you.
Cavener: Thank you.
Miller: You're welcome.
Bird: Any other questions? Thank you very much.
Miller: Thank you.
Bird: Is there anybody else that would like to testify? Please come forward.
J.Pruitt: My name is Jeff Pruitt. 14518 West Barclay Street. I'm also with LuLaRoe and
there is a couple things that I just want to pick up on . I don't know all your names, but
Council Milam -- Milam?
Milam: Milam.
J.Pruitt: That of the 160 dollars. And to me -- first off, I agree with her we should not
have to pay that and, then, two, what's the cost breakdown of that 160 dollars? Why is
it 160 dollars? Why isn't it ten, twenty, thirty. Why is it 160? I don't know. And that's a
question I would like -- maybe he can answer. It seemed to me, too, that the bigger
issue that I -- that I was hearing personally is the rate at which the customers are
coming to the home; right? That's the big topic. To me, like the very first gentleman
that spoke, it shouldn't really depend on the type of business -- business, in my opinion.
Because how many have started were -- Steve Jobs; right? He started in the garage.
There's so many instances where people start in their garage and grow bigger. In
LuLaRoe I have a four car garage with over 6,000 pieces of inventory. Retail sales like
he's saying. That is our full-time income. I do this full-time with my wife now. We make
a full-time income off of selling women's clothes. Did I ever think that was my career?
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No. I was an accountant prior to this. Now I sell women's clothes. But a lot of what he
was saying would shut us down. Right now it would shut us down on -- on what we do.
We have two days a week where customers come to our house for two hours.
Sometimes I get 30 to 50 women show up -- showing up at my house. But I like Eric,
the lawyer from Scentsy said, there is already code that addresses these issues. There
is parking codes. There is -- relevant to your question. There is a certain number of
people that can be in your house at a specific time , right, per square footage. So, I think
a lot of the things were like nitpicking and micromanaging of a lot of these things. Even
back to the liquor license. My brother owns his own bar. Like they are so governed
already -- in my opinion, leave me alone. There is so many state laws that already
govern what they're doing, let them be governed and let's not nitpick down to the
smallest minute details where we can't even run our own businesses the way we want
to run them, because that's why we live in America; right? It's that freedom that we
have continually to run our businesses the way we want and still be governed ,
obviously, to a degree. One other thing, too. After -- and I didn't know a lot of these
rules or laws or ordinances existed either, I will be honest. But one of the other things
was my business depends on my neighbors approval . A hundred feet. What if my
neighbors hates my guts, but I'm trying to start a business. Now, I can't start that
business because my neighbors don't like me? Luckily my neighbors like me right now
and they know what I'm doing and they -- the women come over to my garage all the
time. So, they are big supporters. But what if it was someone else? And now they
can't, because I didn't take them cookies and a glass of milk; right? So, there is so
many things that it's -- it's based on someone else's judgment of me. My suggestions
are this, based off of Council Milam --
Milam: Milam.
Pruitt: Milam. We will get it at the end. Is create a separate ordinance specific to this
industry, because we don't have catalogs that we can order from . Like our customers,
we are a different type of direct sales company. There's no catalog. So, we have to
carry our entire inventory. And, then, like Eric said, enforce the current state and city
codes that are already in place. That would be my suggestions. And, then, I really liked
what Council Cavener said about get into the field. Did they go out and ask the current
field that's already existing out there, like Scentsy, the biggest one. That would be my
suggestions.
Bird: Okay. Thank you.
Pruitt: Yeah.
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Bird: Any questions? Thank you very much. Is there anybody else that would like to
testify? This is a public testimony, Council -- public hearing. Do you -- what's your
pleasure?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: I don't know how the rest of the Council feels, but I would hope maybe we
could at least keep the public hearing open for the meantime. We may have some
discussions that may spur some feedback and if this Council would --
Bird: Fine with that. Any discussion?
Milam: Second.
Bird: Mrs. Milam?
Milam: If you need that -- so --
Cavener: Discussion.
Milam: Oh. Go ahead.
Cavener: No. Go ahead. No, you go.
Bird: Well, do something.
Little Roberts: Mr. President?
Cavener: Go ahead, Ann.
Bird: Mrs. Little Roberts.
Little Roberts: I would just like to go on record that I appreciate you all being here and
everything and I don't think any of this was ever intended to even remotely come across
as not being business-friendly. I also run the Meridian chamber and we work really,
really closely with the city to make sure that -- I mean we run our Young Entrepreneurs
Academy and we are encouraging kids to -- at 14 and 16 to start businesses in their
homes and create entrepreneurs that can be out and creating their own businesses.
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So, I don't think that any of this was an intent at all to come across as not being
business-friendly in the community of Meridian.
Bird: Thank you. Mr. Borton.
Borton: Mr. President. This is, although lengthy, fantastic. It's -- the distinguishing
characteristic, at least for this discussion, is it's not a -- it's not a meeting in public that
we are having, it's a public meeting and part of this process -- and I appreciate all of the
staff's work on this -- is to get through this stage and grind and get the written letters
and get the public comment that each of you provided with your own diverse
backgrounds and reasons to raise concerns that some or all of us might not have --
have seen. It's exactly what we are supposed to do. I think it's been extremely helpful
for me. Early on in this discussion there was -- there was a recommendation or a
comment about tabling this, sending it back to staff and address all of the concerns that
we are going to hear. I think it's a fantastic idea. There is no way that I'd go forward
with approving this right now. There has been some fantastic input of unintended
consequences that have been raised in writing and here that I'm -- that I think our staff
appreciates, too. The intent of what we are trying to address, we need to make sure
that we don't create, you know, create more regulation that's unnecessary and harm a
lot of the -- the citizens and businesses that our community depends on. So, I think it's
been fantastic. I appreciate the information. I wouldn't vote against it -- my
recommendation would be to remand it back to staff and to try and work through some
of these concerns, reach out to some of these -- whether it's Scentsy or other providers
that our residents utilize and try and come up with some alternative language that
addresses all those concerns, if there were to be any change at all.
Bird: Thank you, Mr. Borton. Mr. Palmer, do you have something to say?
Palmer: Yeah, Mr. President. Ever since I was first running back in 2015 I have always
put my cell phone number on all my literature and I have it on the city website and no
one has ever called me until today. It's fantastic. My phone is ringing off the hook. And
the great thing was I was agreeing with almost everything -- and usually I get e-mails
after things and people are pretty upset with me, everything everyone has called me
about I was -- I as on board. So, thank you for calling. Please keep doing it. I echo
Councilman Borton. I feel like we -- as I am far from an environmentalist and I'm far
from a guy who loves regulation, I'm very pro business, pro property rights, in every
possible way. There hasn't been a development project that's come before us yet since
I have been on Council that I voted against and so I want to make sure that we are not
hampering anyone's ability to -- to build a business and to be able to grow it -- I know
Micron was started in a garage and it's obviously not in a garage anymore. And so I
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would like to -- to continue to have Meridian as an opportunity for people to be able to
start in their home and stay there if that works or grow out if they -- if they need to. But
there are circumstance -- paint booths, people painting their cars next to other people's
homes. There are situations that we do need to find a remedy to and so while we can't
just throw this all out, I think -- again, echo Councilman Borton, definitely we need to
make some tweaks and all of your input was very valuable. So, thank you for enduring
with us and providing the testimony.
Bird: Anything else?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: So, today was kind of a unique day to Council Member Palmer's comment,
because at about 1:00 o'clock today someone -- maybe good intentions or not, I think
created a panic on social media and like Councilman Palmer, my phone number has
been on every piece of my campaign material and for the first time ever my voicemail
box is full. I can't take anymore messages, as my wife text me and told me no, because
she was trying to leave me a voicemail. And part of that frustrated me, because I think
that we as a Council have been pretty even handed and I think you have -- hopefully
you have heard a lot of that this evening. So, it's frustrating -- there was this -- what I
thought was an unneeded sense of panic and, boy, why is somebody doing this? But
the result has been really fantastic and specifically to Ms. Smith, I don't think that if this
panic wouldn't have been created that you would have been here tonight and I'm really
glad that you were here tonight, because I really enjoyed hearing your very candid
testimony and it created food for thought , because the challenge is is that -- and we
have talked about this a lot, is that we all have our opinions about what's acceptable
and what's not and what might be acceptable to Council Member Palmer is going to be
obtrusive to me and as a Council it's our goal to weigh reducing regulation, so that your
business can be successful at the expense of our community standards . We heard
from people and all of our issues tonight people have got up and said I have moved to
Meridian. Well, you have moved to Meridian because we are a pretty remarkable
community and we have something to offer and we wouldn't be remarkable if we didn't
have standards and so we have got to work through staff with this and I hope staff will
engage some of the folks that are here tonight, we will engage some subject matter
experts, because when I hear I want to open a retail business in my garage , with all due
respect, I don't think that gels with our community standards and if that's what you want
to do, maybe Meridian isn't the best place to open a retail business in your garage in our
neighborhood. But that doesn't mean that we need to paint with such broad brush
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strokes and so I recognize it's a challenge for staff whether it's helpful or a hindrance --
I'm willing to sit at the table and work through this. I think you have heard from a lot of
people that are here to do that tonight. I know this was probably not intended to be a
first of many steps on all three of the subjects that we have talked about tonight, but I
feel that it is. I think Council Member Borton recommended that we remand this back to
staff to work through. That's something I'm very supportive of. I don't know if any other
Council member has any other comments -- if they do I want to make sure there is time
for that. But if -- if there is not, then, I would be happy to make a motion.
Bird: Mr. Cavener, I want to -- I think that -- I think that we -- I think that we got some
faults leads out there and even I have to admit that I wasn't sure of what we were trying
to do, but the worst thing I can see -- and -- and it happens way too often is we want to
micromanage everything and you can't do it -- the regulations -- most -- every one of us
up here worked -- work or do work for small businesses or we wouldn't -- and that's how
you make your living and regulations, micromanaging kills those kind of things. I
definitely think this needs to go back. I think planning needs to get with people --
developers and BCA aren't the right ones to talk about working out of your house. You
need to get with the Scentsy's, the Mary Kay's, those -- those people that are -- I have
known a lot of women that helped their family and bought a lot of toys and stuff for their
family through Mary Kay and all this kind of stuff. I think there is a way that we can
have regulations, but we can also be sensible and have decent businesses out of it.
That's my say. Now what do you want to do?
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Unless there is any other comments --
Hood: Maybe just one comment or maybe two.
Bird: You bet.
Hood: First is I appreciate Councilman Cavener somewhat volunteering to serve on this
committee. I guess part of the -- the struggle that I have to some degree is I don't mean
we have people here that testified tonight and -- I don't have a list of -- I can get a hold
of Scentsy. I know how to get a hold of Scentsy. But the ma and pa's, th at's -- some of
the -- we don't have a business registry. We don't require that. But I can reach out to
some of the folks -- if they are interested. I don't know if they are. But I need -- I don't
know how to put together this group I guess is what I'm saying. I'm used to working with
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the developers, you know, so -- I appreciate and I agree, I just don't know who that is,
so --
Cavener: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. Cavener.
Cavener: Caleb, I think we have been inundated with communication from people in
our community. Many of them are here tonight. I would imagine that many of them
would be happy to reach out and offer -- maybe all of them are able to, maybe we only
need a fraction of them, but I think that -- I wouldn't be surprised if you would hear some
people that would volunteer. It sounds like you're going to reach out the Scentsy, which
is great. Someone indicated in their testimony tonight that there is another direct sales
company -- I think Damsel In Distress that is located here in the valley. They may be
another organization to connect with. I think start there.
Hood: Okay. So, I'm going to start I think with the folks that have sent the e-mails and
the letters already, as well as --
Bird: I think there is 25 e-mails.
Hood: If you don't -- if you didn't -- you know, most of them did leave an e-mail or a
phone number and I -- I don't want this to get too big, though, either; right? I'm not
going to do all 216 or however many there were. That's just -- it's going to be chaos.
But, you know, ten or 12 or 15, something manageable, right, that we can kind of work
through some of these things. So, I just want to kind of -- the expectation, make sure
we are on the same page here and, then, I have a council liaison, too, so I will let you
guys arm wrestle over that, who is going to co-serve on this or whatever.
Bird: I think -- I think he ought to be volunteered.
Hood: It's decided then. The other thing I would just request, as you -- because this
seems to be where it's going, is as you -- if you continue it, a date certain to me makes
some sense. Let the people know when we are going to pick this up again. Three
months. Four months. There is -- from my standpoint -- and, again, I will look to Code
Enforcement and Legal -- if they have more urgency than I do -- I don't think we are in a
rush to change things. Three, four, five, six months. Whatever you think. But some
date certain. If you can look at your calendar when you continue this to a date certain, I
will defer what date that is to you, but --
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Cavener: Okay. I can put that in a motion. I think I'm fine with that.
Bird: Just a second. Tom, we have sat here -- you're the -- you are the enforcement.
Have you had a lot of complaints and stuff over what we have been discussing?
Baker: Well, when it comes to do -- oh, thank you. When it comes to home
occupations we do get quite a few complaints on home occupations. I was just looking
through my numbers and they are not near as high as I -- I envisioned them to be and I
think the reason is when we do get a complaint, the people that complain about them
are very passionate, but as they make the statement that -- they make statements to us
that, hey, I moved -- this is a residence, it's not meant to be a business, why do I have
all these cars parked in front of my house. Now, to the gentleman from Scentsy that
mentioned we have parking codes, a lot of the people park legally, so there is nothing
we can do about the actual parking of them. To go back to -- and if I'm saying too much
here, please --
Bird: No. No. Go ahead, Tom.
Baker: Is to go back to what people were wondering about as far as ticketing and
writing citations to home occupation people that are conducting home occupations. We
that's not how the UDC works. That's not how we work. We don't write -- we don't --
it's not even in our code that we can do that. We can't write you a citation. The other
thing is when it comes to Scentsy and other businesses like that -- so, I don't want this
to come across as Scentsy got a -- some type of an exemption, because it wasn't, but
my understanding since I have been here -- almost ten years now -- we have never tried
to prosecute any type of -- well, actually, I have to say, we -- I don't even recall us
getting a complaint on a Scentsy or any modeled business that's like Scentsy and when
I say that I mean -- I don't know too much about your business, so if I'm -- if I'm
speaking incorrectly here, please -- please forgive me. But where you have people
come to your house to have like a party where you're looking at products and , then, they
order things and, then, they come back or you take them there. I was always under the
understanding that that model of business didn't -- did not violate our home occupation
standards and it wasn't regulated by home occupation standards. The one exception --
and I hate to say this -- has to do with the blue jeans. We did get a complaint on the
blue jeans where -- and it wasn't you, it was many years ago, and I don't even think it
was your product. It might have been something else, because that doesn't sound
familiar. But the person had boxes and boxes in the garage and they were selling them
retail out of their house and it was -- you can see how murky these waters can get, as
we are talking about all this. It was decided in that case -- it was my case -- that it was
too similar to the Scentsy model, to the Tupperware model, to the Terra model, to delve
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in and try to enforce our code, because it was too similar and the lines were too blurred.
So, the decision was made to just -- to back off, unless we just had overwhelming
evidence to the contrary. Now, the vast majority of home occupation -- excuse me, I'm
getting kind of tired here. Home occupation complaints that we get are the vehicle paint
booths that I think Mr. Palmer mentioned. The vehicle repair and we get a lot of
daycare complaints that people are turning around improperly and so we do have a lot
of people here that have showed up, but what we don't see are the people that are
calling to say I live in this neighborhood, I bought this home and I didn't expect there to
be a drapery factory across the street from me or this other type of business where, you
know, people are coming all the time to buy things. Those are the types of complaints
who get to -- from other -- on the other side of it and I think Mr. Cavener kind of was
alluding toward that. I don't want to put words in your mouth , but it kind of sounded like
that's where he was going with what he was saying. Very eloquently. So, I think the
portion of this that we really ought to pay attention to was the permit process. This --
that is drastic. It -- without that portion of this -- that component of this code -- and I'm
not saying it has to be done exactly like that, because Caleb, in all fairness, he did
mention that, as -- as Mrs. Milam pointed out, maybe certain types or levels of
occupation could have a different level of permit processing and goes back to what the
gentleman brought up -- and forgive me if I'm not supposed to be pointing, but I just
want to make sure we know where I'm talking about here. The gentleman brought up
about what do those fees go to. Well, with certain permits -- Caleb -- he said in our
meeting that, you know, they -- certain types of home occupations -- one part require
the amount of work, so maybe we can have a different level of permit. But I can tell you
from a code enforcement standpoint and knowing what the -- what Meridian expects of
our neighborhoods, I am very thankful that we are making this attempt. I'm very
thankful to Caleb, I'm very thankful to Bill that they have -- they have taken this on,
because it is very hard. It's not easy to please everybody, to make sure that everybody
has a fair shake. We are trying, I promise you that, and this is not intended to hurt
anybody's business, it's intended to try to walk that line between what Mr. Cavener said
regarding keeping our neighborhoods looking like neighborhoods and satisfying the
citizens that are complaining, because they are out there, I promise, and we were
making this up and they are very frustrated when they say, well -- we tell him they have
a permit. Well, they're not doing what the permit says and there is no process here.
There hasn't been since I have been here. There was no process to try to revoke that
permit or do anything with it. The only process we had was to write a violation letter
and, then, have it go to City Council as it's spelled out in there and you guys decided
whether or not and how many of -- how many times has that happened? Probably zero.
So, we need to -- we need to streamline that process, so we can better serve that side
of our -- of our citizenry that is frustrated that people are violating their home
occupations and that they are -- they are not following the rules. So, I am really thankful
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that you guys have -- we have finally tackled this. It's -- it's a huge, huge thing for the
community. I really am thankful that we are trying to tackle it. And, you know, to go to
the nice young lady you were putting it -- that has the operation -- the open house. I
have been looking at those -- I have been looking at those signs on Overland all the
way up into Bear Creek for years now and how many times -- I don't even recognize
your face. I'm sorry, where are you? You're -- I don't -- yeah. Hi. I don't even
recognize you. You probably -- I have never been to your house because of that,
because we try to exercise due diligence when it came to that. We were told the
Scentsy model, once again, not giving the exemption to Scentsy. We are not singling
them out to say, hey, it's okay for Scentsy, no one else. It's that particular model did not
violate our home occupation standards and, therefore, we left them alone. It sounds to
me like what you were doing may have, if we wanted to get nitpicky on it and, you know,
like -- like the other gentleman said, technically, you know -- well, sometimes there are
gray areas in city code and we -- we do our darnedest to make sure that we enforce our
city code with the intent of our City Council and our Mayor and to make sure that we are
doing it fairly and we never ever go after people and try to maliciously go after
businesses, but one case -- what was your product? The jeans that you're selling? He
said he's become very successful. I have a case over in -- in Red Feather. That -- the
one on Ustick. It was a hospice business and she started out in one little tiny room and
she became so successful that every single room in her house was filled up with
personnel to help -- not -- not sick people, they weren't conducting the actual -- they
were actually -- that was their office building and she had no idea -- back when she
asked about it, she -- they called the business, they said, sure, you can do that. It was
that long ago. But it has became so successful. So, what she ended up having to do is
move out of her house, because they were having literally conventions of a hundred
people that would come to that house and cars parked everywhere. Most of them
legally. We couldn't do anything about the way they were parked. She had to move out
of her -- out of her house and in -- she had to get a commercial warehouse to -- and you
know what she said to me? I went and saw her one day. You said, you know what, that
was the best thing you ever did for me, because once I moved into that -- that -- that
office space I was actually able to even expand better and my business became even
bigger and bigger and she thanked us. So, there are flip sides to these matters. Sorry
for being long-winded. I just -- I have been hearing a lot of passion here. We are not
out to get Scentsy. We are not out to maliciously get anybody. That's not what this is
about. It's to try to provide equity. That's all.
Bird: Thank you, Tom. Council? Mr. Cavener you got a -- you want to continue the
public hearing or are we going to close the public hearing and then --
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Cavener: I -- Mr. Bird, if -- unless there is an objection, I would just move that we keep
the public hearing open and we --
Bird: I don't disagree.
Cavener: -- and continue it to -- here is the date. November 14th, 2017. That give us
six months and, then, I would -- I would like to ask staff to establish a stakeholder group
to look at this issue, involve individuals from the direct sales industry, as well as those
that work in the beer and wine, retail, on premise industry and perhaps, if it's
appropriate, maybe some goals of that group, potentially be to maybe establish a direct
sales definition that could be included in with the -- with this proposal.
Palmer: Second.
Bird: Second?
Cavener: I see Mr. Hood is rubbing his --
Bird: Any discussion. Hearing none --
Cavener: Mr. President, if I may?
Bird: Yeah.
Cavener: I just want to give Mr. Hood an opportunity to answer -- ask a question or
clarification before we vote.
Hood: Poker face, I guess.
Cavener: We should be playing cards.
Hood: Yeah. I will do whatever -- I'm just trying to envision how that works two
subcommittees and, similarly, I'm not quite sure from the beer and wine side of things
who to -- and I definitely wouldn't mix that up into one work group I don't think. That
seems like that's just too different groups.
Milam: I agree.
Hood: And so I'm trying to figure out how you envision that working in your motion, how
that plays out in real life.
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Nary: Mr. President?
Bird: Mr. --
Nary: How about -- we will take the lead on the beer and wine stuff , since we deal with
that both of the licensing side and include as part of that discussion and we know who
the contact folks are to talk to on that. If the planning folks would take the lead on the
home occupation stuff, we could probably get that --
Bird: I think that's very good.
Cavener: While one group was much more vocal here tonight, I think both of those are
issues that we both -- we discussed --
Bird: And I think Mr. Nary spent about two years on a liquor thing, so he's very familiar
with liquor laws. Okay. Got a continuance to November 4th, 2017 --
Cavener: 14th.
Bird: 2017. November 14th, 2017.
Cavener: It's a workshop session. I thought that would be best to go with.
Bird: That's great. If I said 2014, we have passed that. All in favor sa y aye. Any
opposed? See you the 14th of November.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Cavener: Thank you all for being here.
H. Public Hearing to Consider the Conveyance of Certain Real
Property on E. Pine Avenue near Main Street to the Ada
County Highway District for Right of Way Purposes
1. ORDINANCE NO. 17-1730: AN ORDINANCE
AUTHORIZING THE CONVEYANCE OF CERTAIN CITY
OWNED REAL PROPERTY TO THE ADA COUNTY
HIGHWAY DISTRICT FOR RIGHT-OF-WAY PURPOSES
LOCATED NEAR THE SE CORNER OF E. PINE AVENUE