2015 04-02Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting April 2, 2015.
Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of April 2, 2015, was called to
order at 6:00 p.m. by Vice-Chairman.
Present: Chairman Steven Yearsley, Commissioner Rhonda McCarvel, Commissioner
Patrick Oliver. Commissioner Gregory Wilson and Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald.
Others Present: Machelle Hill, Bill Nary, Sonya Watters, Bill Parsons and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance:
Roll-call
__X___ Gregory Wilson __X__ Patrick Oliver
__X__ Rhonda McCarvel __X__ Ryan Fitzgerald
__X__ Steven Yearsley - Chairman
Yearsley: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time we would like to call to order
the regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission on the
hearing date of April 2nd, 2015. Let's begin with roll call.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda
Yearsley: Thank you. The next item on the agenda is the -- or the adoption of the
agenda. The two changes that we do have are the continued public hearing of March
19th of CUP 15-001 and RZ 15-004 -- no. Sorry. Just the CUP 15-001. The Franklin
Mini Storage is going to be continued or is requesting to be continued to April 16th and,
then, the public hearing for RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 is requesting to be continued to
April 16th as well. With that can I get a motion to adopt the agenda?
Oliver: So moved.
Wilson: Second.
McCarvel: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda. All in favor say aye.
Opposed. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 3: Consent Agenda
A. Approve Minutes of March 19, 2015 Planning and Zoning Meeting
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April 2, 2015
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Yearsley: The next thing on the agenda is the Consent Agenda and -- the approval of the
Consent Agenda and we -- only item we have on that is the approval of the minutes of the
March 19th Meridian -- of 2015 Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting. Is there any
comments or questions to that? With that I would entertain a motion to approve the
Consent Agenda.
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver.
Oliver: I move that we adopt or approve the minutes of March 19th, 2015, for the meeting.
Wilson: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. All in favor say
aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 4: Action Items
A. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: CUP 15-001
Franklin Mini-Storage by Osborne Enterprises Located 1975 E.
Franklin Road Request: Conditional Use Permit for a Self-Service
Facility in a C-G Zoning District
Yearsley: So, at this time we would like to open the public hearing -- the continued public
hearing from March 19, 2015, of CUP 15-001, Franklin Mini Storage. Is the applicant here
today? Please come forward. Please state your name and address for the record and
just if you could tell us the reasons for the continuation.
Thompson: Sure. Mr. Chairman. My name is Tamara Thompson. I'm with The Land
Group at 462 East Shore Drive in Eagle. The reason for the requested continuance is we
have been working with the fire department on some emergency access, egress, that kind
of thing and we just transmitted to Planning yesterday our revised plans. So, we are
moving forward. We -- the 16th should be a good day for us.
Yearsley: Okay. Any questions for the applicant? Thank you.
Thompson: Thank you.
Yearsley: So, with that can enter -- I would entertain a motion to continue the public
hearing to April 16th.
Wilson: Mr. Chair?
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April 2, 2015
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Yearsley: Commissioner Wilson.
Wilson: I move we move to April 16, 2015, CUP 15-001, Franklin Mini Storage.
Fritzgerald: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing of CUP 15-001,
Franklin Mini Storage, to April 16, 2015. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: RZ 15-004
Verona East Subdivision by Primeland Investment Group, LLC
Located East of N. Ten Mile Road and North of W. McMillan Road
Request: Rezone of 0.67 Acres of Land from the L-O Zoning
District to the R-8 Zoning District
C. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: PFP 15-001
Verona East Subdivision by Primeland Investment Group, LLC
Located East of N. Ten Mile Road and North of W. McMillan Road
Request: Preliminary / Final Plat Consisting of Four (4) Single
Family Residential Lots and Two (2) Common Lots on
Approximately 0.62 Acres in a Proposed R-8 Zoning District
Yearsley: Next one on the list is the continued public hearing from March 19th, 2015, of
RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 of Verona East Subdivision. Is that applicant here? Does
staff have any comments on the continuation on that one?
Watters: No, Chairman Yearsley.
Yearsley: Okay.
Watters: The applicant is just revising their plans per staff's comments, so they -- they are
from out of town, so they weren't able to be here tonight.
Yearsley: Okay. So, with that I would entertain a motion to continue the public hearings.
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald.
Fitzgerald: Can I do this in dual?
Yearsley: Yes. At the same time.
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Fitzgerald: Okay. I would move that we continue the public hearing for RZ 15-004 and
PFP 15-001 to April 16th.
McCarvel: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing of RZ 15-004 and
PFP 15-001 to April 16th, 2015. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Yearsley: So, now before I go any further, let me explain kind of the process of how this is
going to work. We will open the next two items up one by one, starting off with the staff
report. The staff will present their findings of the project and how it adheres to the
Comprehensive Plan and the Uniform Development Code with staff recommendations.
Then we will allow the applicant to come forward to present their case for approval and
respond to any of the staff comments. The applicant will be given up to 15 minutes to do
so. After the applicant has had a chance to talk we will open it up to the public testimony.
There is a sign-up sheet in the back. Anyone wishing to testify may -- may testify and will
respond with a show of hands who wants to come forward. The public will be given three
minutes to talk about the project and their concerns or how -- what -- their issues. If they
are speaking for a larger group and there is a show of hands, they will be given up to ten
minutes. After the public has had a chance to testify, the applicant will have an
opportunity to come up and to respond to the comments and they will be given up to ten
minutes. After that we will close the public hearing and the commission will have an
opportunity to discuss and deliberate and hopefully make decisions on the project.
D. Public Hearing: CUP 15-005 Sonic Drive-In at Paramount by Ken
Lenz Located 4936 N. Linder Road Request: Conditional Use
Permit Approval for a Drive-Thru Establishment in a C-G Zoning
District Within 300 Feet of Another Drive-Thru Facility and
Existing Residences
Yearsley: So, with that I would like to open the public hearing of CUP 15-005, the Sonic
Drive-in at Paramount and let's begin with the staff report.
Watters: Thank you, Chairman Yearsley, Members of the Commission. The first
application before you tonight is a request for a conditional use permit. This site consists
of .97 of an acre of land, zoned C-G, and is located at 4936 North Linder Road off the
northeast corner of North Linder and West McMillan Roads north of the Walgreens site.
Adjacent land use and zoning. To the north is vacant undeveloped commercial property,
zoned C-G. To the east is Linder Springs Apartments. Currently in the development
process, zoned C-G. To the south is the Walgreens Pharmacy, zoned C-G. And to the
west is North Linder Road and single family residential properties, zoned R-8 and vacant
commercial properties, zoned C-G. The Comprehensive Plan future land use map
designation for this site is commercial. The conditional use permit is requested for a
drive-thru for the Sonic Drive-in. A conditional use permit is required, because the drive-
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thru is proposed within 300 feet of an existing drive-thru establishment, the Walgreens
pharmacy, and residential uses in Linder Springs Apartments in the C-G zoning district.
The site plan and -- excuse me -- submitted by the applicant, as you see there, depicts
how the site is proposed to develop with a 2,308 square foot restaurant with a drive-thru,
indoor and outdoor seating and drive-in stalls where the customer can order and eat in
their cars. Access is proposed by a north-south backage driveway along the east
boundary of the site within a cross-access easement recorded with the plat and by a
shared access with Walgreens from North Linder Road. Parking is proposed in excess of
UDC minimum requirements. A total of 22 drive-in stalls with speakers and 22 regular
parking stalls are depicted on the site plan. The landscape buffer along Linder Road was
installed with the plat improvements. Because this site is zoned C-G and residential uses
abut the site on the east, a 25 foot wide landscape buffer is required to be provided on this
site with dense landscaping. The applicant's plans originally showed a five foot wide
buffer along the east boundary where driveways aren't proposed, as shown on the plan
there on your right. Revised plans have since been submitted, as shown here, that depict
a 43 and a half foot long by six foot tall masonry wall within a ten foot wide buffer adjacent
to the drive-thru area and is this area right here where my pointer is at. The UDC gives
the City Council authority to reduce the buffer width at a public hearing with the notice to
surrounding property owners. The applicant plans to make this request. However, the
Commission does not have authority to reduce the buffer width. The drive-thru is required
to comply with the specific use standards listed in the UDC for drive-thru facilities. Staff
has reviewed these standards and finds the drive-thru complies with all standards, except
for one. The stacking lane is required to be a separate lane from the circulation lanes
needed for access and parking. This is for the drive-thru area here. Although the
stacking lane separates into two order lanes right here that merge back into one pickup
lane, traffic stacking in this lane during peak hours will block the parking stalls and drive
aisles on the south side of the building in this area here and hinder vehicles exiting the
site via the one-way drive aisle to the east. To remedy this issue, staff recommends the
row of parking directly south of the building is removed and the dedicated stacking lane for
the drive-thru is provided in its place. A minimum of 13 foot wide one-way drive aisle
should also be maintained for vehicles exiting the site from the drive-in order spaces.
Building elevations were submitted as shown for the proposed structure. Materials
consisting primarily of stucco with stone veneer accents. The type of stone is proposed to
be the same as that used on the Walgreens building to the south for consistency. The
hours of operation are restricted from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., because the site abuts a
residential use, the apartments to the east. No written testimony has been received on
this -- excuse me. Yes, we did receive a letter from the property owner -- or the
representative to the east. It is in the public record. You should have a copy of it. Staff is
recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report. Staff will stand for any
questions Commission may have.
Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions?
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Yes.
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Oliver: Could we go back to the original -- right there. Yeah.
Watters: The original plan or the revised one?
Oliver: The next one. The revised. So, right where your -- your pointer is right now,
that's going to be a wall?
Watters: Right there where that dark line is.
Oliver: And that will be how tall?
Watters: Six foot tall, 43 and a half foot long.
Oliver: No shrubs, just wall?
Watters: There are various plantings along there that they have proposed. The UDC
does require a very dense landscape buffer adjacent to residential uses. It doesn't -- I'm
not sure that it is necessarily shown here. The code requires trees to touch at maturity
and a variety of trees and shrubs and plantings to create that dense buffer.
Oliver: And that's mainly designed as a -- to insulate the noise?
Watters: Visual and noise buffer. Uh-huh.
Oliver: Thank you.
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner.
Fitzgerald: Sonya, can you -- and you said that they have the right to be able shrink that
buffer, but only at Council; correct?
Watters: Chairman Yearsley, Commissioners, Commissioner Fitzgerald, yes.
Fitzgerald: Okay. We can make the recommendation that it stay?
Watters: You can certainly make any recommendation you want on this and it will be
forwarded to the Council, but the Council is the decision-making body.
Fitzgerald: Thank you, ma'am.
Yearsley: Any other questions? Would the applicant like to come forward? Please state
your name and address for the record.
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April 2, 2015
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Huber: My name is Jeff Huber. Our address is 8385 West Emerald, Boise. I represent
the applicant White-Leasure Development Company. W e are in agreement with the staff
report with the exception of three items that we'd like to discuss with you tonight. Staff's
done a good job of introducing the project to you and I -- so, I'd like to jump right to those
conditions if we could. One condition -- 1.3.A is a requirement for a tree at the southwest
corner of the parking area and we had a -- an enormous amount of piping there for our
landscaping and pressurized irrigation. So, we would propose that we relocate the tree
that was -- that was asked for there to a location at the northwest corner of the parking
area, so we have an additional tree there to mitigate the loss of that tree at that particular
location. The second condition that we'd like to discuss is the condition for the drive aisle
stacking. Condition 1.3.C. There is -- do we have a -- Sonya, do you have a -- one of the
overheads that show the 11 car stacking in the --
Watters: Yes.
Huber: -- and the double drive-thru? This particular Sonic is a new prototype. It's unique,
because it's different than all the others that are in the whole state. It's the first Sonic that
has indoor seating. There is 40 seats inside. And it's the first Sonic that has a double
drive-thru with stacking for 11 cars. The parking along the south side is -- is needed to
bring patrons into the inside seating area. The -- there is also a door here at this location,
called a hop out door where the employees are -- see that inside that the order is ready,
they go out to the car and actually deliver orders to those people ahead of -- that are
ready ahead of the ones that are waiting. If you have a small order, like a malt or a soda
pop, order of fries, they can get that to you quickly and move you out of the line. So, that
alleviates any stacking or internal conflicts that might occur from backing into this parking
area. It's also one of the main entries into the building.
Watters: Jeff, if you would select a color at the top of the screen. Push the button. Then
you can draw on the --
Huber: I don't want to draw on it, I just want it to stop jumping around.
Watters: Sorry, there is no way to lock it. Every time you touch it it's going to switch.
Huber: Every time I touch the screen?
Watters: Yeah.
Huber: Okay.
Watters: I can point for you, though.
Huber: Okay. So, the hop out door is right in this location here. Also during the -- the
grand opening a few weeks into the business when the -- they are experiencing a high
volume of customers from a new opening, they have the employees trained to go out, if
there is any stacking issues, to encourage those people to go over to the additional
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parking here and order from the speaker boards. For those reasons we feel that the
parking is needed and that there is not going to be internal conflicts in this particular case,
because of these added features and we would request that you delete this condition.
The next condition I'd like to discuss would be Condition 1.3.B, 25 foot setback
requirement that staff has said that only the City Council can amend that, but you do have,
I believe, the authority to interpret the intent of the setback and make comments on it. We
are adjacent to the Linder Springs Apartments, which is located in a C-G zone. Have we
got an overhead that shows --
Watters: I do not have an overhead that shows the whole site with the apartments.
Huber: Okay. Well, their -- let me grab --
Watters: Jeff, if you have one we can put it on the overhead.
Huber: There we go.
Watters: If you like.
Huber: What we are -- what I'm showing you here is a Sonic site -- the Sonic site is in this
location right here and when these Linder Apartments were constructed in the C-G zone
they have a 40 -- they have setback there of 45 feet, which is a common area -- lawn area
with landscaping and a six foot fence -- wooden fence there. Then you have 35 feet of
drive aisle and, then, we have the block wall that we have proposed at the request of the
adjoining property owner. It's on a two foot berm also, so it's actually eight feet high.
There is a ten foot minimum of landscaping in that particular area, followed by another
landscape island that is nine feet wide, followed by the back of the building, which has 18
feet of landscaping in it. Together there is 37 feet of landscaping at the rear. So, I think
we have met or exceeded the intent of the ordinance and would request that either the
condition be eliminated or that Commission give a recommendation of approval to the City
Council in this particular case. There are volume controls on all the speakers now. This
is a new feature of this Sonic, which we can turn down the speakers to a level that is
acceptable to everybody in the neighborhood and this -- this particular prototype has just
got dark sky lighting throughout the whole thing. They call it zero lot line lighting. It's all
facing down, it's all flat lens underneath the canopies. There is a security light on the rear
of the building that is shielded and throws a ten foot shadow down on the ground, which is
needed for security at the rear. Other than that, the -- the lighting is all contained and
facing downward. Do you have any questions about the operation or the -- there is --
there is a manager here, an operations manager, from Sonic.
Yearsley: Are there any questions?
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver.
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Oliver: So, as far as speakers, the east station where you pull in, there is a speaker there,
but it does not play music or does it?
Huber: No. There is -- underneath the canopy there are speakers that play music that is
facing to the west. We have eliminated two speakers of the east end of the canopies that
have music and we have eliminated them at the front. There is only two speakers, one in
the middle of each canopy facing to the west and those are also volume controlled.
Oliver: Okay.
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald.
Fitzgerald: I think that your comment about the wall and the buffer -- and the berm, I
appreciate that. I think the challenge is not the landscaping intent, it's the noise and so I --
I mean having the wall there and having the buffer there equals -- 16 plus 35 plus ten
doesn't get you to 300, which is the normal standard. So, I think that's what concerned
me is -- at least making sure that buffer stays there and there is a wall there would
probably be at least my thought. Is there any -- do you have any feedback on that?
Huber: When you say the 300 --
Fitzgerald: Well, that's the conditional use; right? Because you have a --
Huber: No. The conditional use is required if it's within 300 feet. There isn't a 300 feet
separation required.
Wilson: No. No. I know. But that's why the conditional use is -- and that's -- is the noise
not the intent of more landscaping as a noise buffer?
Huber: Yes. So --
Fitzgerald: Okay.
Huber: It was at the request of the adjoining property owner.
Fitzgerald: And that's what I just wanted to make sure we are --
Huber: And we couldn't put it the entire length there, because of the vision triangles for
cars going in and out of that drive aisle.
Fitzgerald: Makes sense. Okay. Thank you.
Yearsley: Any other questions?
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McCarvel: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: During your high peak time how many cars do you normally have in the drive-
thru?
Huber: That's a question for the operations manager.
McCarvel: Okay. Because I have been stuck in that line back there and had cars trying to
back out into me and it gets -- everybody gets frustrated.
Huber: And those are with single drive-thrus. They are all single drive-thrus in the state,
except for this one. This is why the --
McCarvel: I mean in other areas -- I mean other companies as well. But, yeah, those
people in that parking spot -- I mean it's -- we will ask their operations manager, I guess.
Huber: Well, we have dealt with the capacity of the stacking with the double drive-thru
here.
McCarvel: Uh-huh.
Yearsley: Would the operation manager like to come forward?
Huber: Sure.
Yearsley: Again, please, state your name and address for the record.
Harris: My name is Devon Harris. My address is 2591 West Whitestone Drive, Meridian,
Idaho. 83646.
Yearsley: Would you mind answering that question about the stacking?
Harris: The stacking? So, physically the most I have ever seen at Meridian as far as
people in an hour through the drive-thru line was 47 cars. But with the drive-thru line
having two of them, you're going to have 11 cars compared that you can only have five in
the single drive-thru line and also what I -- I currently work at the Nampa location off
Marketplace and we have taught our car hops to actually go out to the cars in line and say
it's going to be much faster if you guys want to park and since this is a drink order we will
bring the order there and bring it out if they need to, but with the double drive-thru line you
might still have 11 cars and, plus, there is going to be a lot more employees working
there, because of the double drive-thru, that you will have more opportunities for the
employees to hop orders out to them when they need that.
Yearsley: Any other questions?
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Oliver: Can I --
Yearsley: Absolutely.
Oliver: Just -- just real quick. So, there is really kind of two peak times that you're going
to get that heavy traffic. Lunchtime --
Harris: And lunchtime -- yeah. Lunchtime is not even the busiest. It would be happy
hour.
Oliver: I was going to say it's happy hour is probably your heaviest --
Harris: Yes. Yeah.
Oliver: And that's like -- that runs until, what, 3:00 or 4:00?
Harris: 2:00 to 4:00.
Oliver: 4:00. Yeah. So, 2:00 to 4:00.
Harris: And that's when we experience -- and, like I said, the most I have ever seen at
Meridian, which is --
Oliver: During that 2:00 to 4:00 period.
Harris: Yes.
Oliver: Thank you.
Yearsley: Any other questions? Thank you.
Harris: Thank you.
Yearsley: I have a few people signed up.
Huber: I had one more comment.
Yearsley: Oh. Sorry.
Huber: That's okay. They also -- there is one more feature that this Sonic has that the
others don't. It's a new shake machine that speeds up the time they can make a shake
and the other stores, they have to mix the ingredients. This new shake machine it's all
mixed together. So, they can -- when they have a shake order, boom, it's ready to go.
So, it speeds it up traumatically. Just to let you know.
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Yearsley: Okay.
Huber: And they have got great corndogs.
Yearsley: Thank you. I have a couple of people signed -- oh, no. Yeah. This one.
Sorry. Jason Curry. Please state your name and address for the record.
Curry: My name is Jason Curry. My address is 5080 North Dove Ridge Place. I live in
the Kelly Creek Subdivision, which is immediately across the street from the Sonic
Drive-in. I'm here today to state my views and my opposition for this development
specifically because of safety. It has nothing to do with the company themselves. In fact,
I'm a patron of the company, but I'm here to oppose my view specifically because of
safety. Within the surrounding area there are a thousand plus homes within three-
quarters of a mile, including the largest high school within the state of Idaho, which is
growing at a very rapid rate. Between the hours of 6:30 and 8:00 a.m. my house backs up
to Linder Street and it is a freeway literally and also during the time the school exits it is
also busiest time of the day. In fact, this morning I pulled out of my subdivision at 7:00
a.m., there was a car accident on Linder, which is a five lane road, at the exit of where this
Sonic would be used. This car was trying to cross on Dove Ridge across Linder, across a
five lane road, which is not controlled by lights and as you can see on one of the pictures
here, the exit crosses directly into a subdivision across Linder right there on Deer Crest.
Thank you. And that is a five lane road. And today there is already a Dutch Bros, which
contains a drive-thru and the amount of traffic that come in and out of there on the
weekends and throughout the day is tremendous, not to mention that with a school of
1,700 plus students and it is a high school, you have new drivers, new driver's licenses,
ages from between 15 and 18 years old that are going to be frequently using both the
Dutch Bros exit, as well as the Sonic application. What I would propose today and what I
would ask, if this has not been done, is for a traffic study to be able to account for the
volume of cars that will come into and out of the exit here on Deer Crest, as well as on
Linder and the exit at the Walgreens on McMillan, to understand the amount of cars and
the timing of these, because the high traffic volume that we are talking about that Sonic
currently has is between that, which is also the exit of the school. So, yes, 1,700
students, over 150 of them I believe are on foot traffic down Linder towards Walgreens to
go to the surrounding thousand homes within that area, which, obviously, is a concern.
My second concern is three of the five homeowners that are my street never received a
notification for this meeting today. Myself included. I don't believe that -- I don't know if
there was a problem with the mailing, but I anticipate that that is something that we should
look at and I would ask for a new notification of time to go out. So, I would ask you to
strongly, in closing -- I know I'm out of time, but in closing here reconsider this
development based on the amount of traffic and the safety concerns itself. Thank you.
Yearsley: Thank you.
Oliver: Mr. Commissioner?
Yearsley: Do you have a question?
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April 2, 2015
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Oliver: Yeah, I do. For this gentleman.
Yearsley: Jason, would you --
Curry: Yeah. Sorry.
Yearsley: We had a question for you.
Oliver: Sorry. I just -- you may know and you may not know. Is the Rocky Mountain High
School an open campus where they can leave during the day to leave the campus?
Curry: I believe it is. Yes.
Oliver: Okay. Thank you.
Curry: You're welcome.
Yearsley: The next -- any other questions? Thank you. Sorry. Next on the list is Marjorie
Matthes. Please state your name and address for the record.
Matthes: My name is Marjorie Matthes. I live at 2299 West Kelly Creek. I am also in the
Kelly Creek Division. I have spoken and have attended Mayor's Coffee get togethers and
have said to the Mayor that Kelly Creek needs an advocate on the City Council regarding
our ingress and egress from our tract. I agree with Jason. I'm concerned that the
immediate neighbors regarding our community that are the original homeowners did not
receive notice of this petition considering the close proximity to this development that we
are. I agree that this is a major issue not in regards to the business that's being located
there, but the impact of the traffic. I am not sure if the City Council is aware, we have had
three pedestrian accidents in that area, two specifically at the corner of Deer Crest and
Linder. One young lady was in a cast for over six months. This is a community that has
an extremely high density of traffic during early morning, evening hours from the time that
school gets out until people are coming home at night. We do not have protected ingress
and egress anywhere from Kelly Creek. Leaving on Deer Crest, going out Wild Goose
and on McMillan, we are surrounded by Fred Meyers. We have the high school. We
have the middle school at McMillan. We have Walgreens below us. I feel that Sonic is a
great company. I think it has a great development. They look like they have given great
consideration for this. I think there are many other advantageous locations for them.
Being located close to the school is an optimum location. You have got 1,700 drivers.
You have got 1,700 kids, of which are already going in and out of the Dutch Bros every
day who are now going to be drawing more kids to go to the Sonic. Kids will do this.
You're inviting the most inattentive, dangerous drivers in our community to accumulate in
this area when we have already had three pedestrian accidents besides the car accidents.
I am a commercial driver with my husband in a Snap-On truck every day, I know when I
see problems. I have taken the Smith Defensive Driving Class. Linder is not a safe road
by any means of any community that you have in Meridian right now. So, I would really
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April 2, 2015
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request that from the safety perspective of this as to what you are committing to -- our
community to, we need you to be an advocate for our community and look out for our
youth in our neighborhood and people. We also have a high density of retirement people
in our community who are also distracted drivers on occasion. This is not a safe business
endeavor to come into our community. As Jason has told you and my sister-in-law will tell
you -- she didn't sign up to talk. Her upstairs looks straight down on Linder. The amount
of foot traffic -- I saw a young woman driving down Linder on a bike with her young child
biking and going across on Chinden and I looked at that and I thought I don't know that I
would take my child behind me on a bike on Linder. That is a very risky endeavor. So,
we do really request that you support us and not approve this petition. Thank you.
Yearsley: Thank you. Next is Jeff Beck. Again, name and address for the record.
Beck: My name is Jeff Beck and I live at 5036 North Dove Ridge. My backyard actually
has the best view of this Sonic you could ask for. Not that I'm asking for it. Those
gentlemen from the Sonic corporate office -- or the local operations manager, he said that
at times they had 47 cars that were piled up in their drive-thru in line. This 47 would be
awesome, because we have a high school right next door to the Sonic and I think it's
going to be a lot more than 47 in this drive-thru. If you look at that plan, that building is
shoehorned into that -- that lot. It doesn't fit and it doesn't belong there. I think a larger
site would be better, especially given the fact that if you look at where the streets come in
at McMillan and Linder, there is a left turn lane. That left turn lane sweeps right across
where that Sonic is going to be. You have got high school drivers driving to high school
every morning that are going to be turning left right there. My little girl walks to school
every day and she walks home and she's almost been hit by a car twice and she -- she
goes through the crosswalk. Another neighbor of mine got hit by a car on his bike on the
same street in the same area. So, if you think about in the wintertime when it gets dark
you got high school drivers -- this Sonic -- the Meridian Press did an article last year in
2014, January, on bike and auto accidents and the most common bike-auto accidents that
occur when people are turning out of a driveway. The room that they afforded for this
Sonic to have exit and entrance, there is just no room there. You're right up against
McMillan and coming in and out on Linder it's just going to be a train wreck and I'm going
to just -- now, the drive-thru is going to be a double drive-thru, which to me sounds even
worse, because of the fact that it widens that path and it makes it really difficult for cars to
back out. These are high school kids and high school kids don't always pay attention. I'm
not as worried about them hitting a car, but you're also going to have foot traffic like crazy.
Now it's accommodated about 40 seats. How many of these people are going to
potentially back into students. My daughter is, obviously, a student. So, my concerns are
traffic noise. We have a volume control speaker. If I am a high school kid how high is that
volume going to go? It's going to be jacked up. My house is right behind that and so we
already have Dutch Bros and those cars wrap all the way around and I have seen those
cars going all the way back to McMillan. So, I think this is the worst possible location for a
Sonic and like Sonic, I'm a fan of Sonic, but to put it here --
Yearsley: Can you wrap it up?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
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Beck: Yeah. I'm done. So -- but I just -- to me this is just safety for the city.
Yearsley: Thank you. Next on the list is Connie Reeves.
Reeves: Good evening. I'm Connie Reeves and I live at 5051 North Dove Ridge Place.
And ditto to everything they have said, but my biggest concern is -- is, again, the traffic. I
will give an example. Yesterday I was turning left into -- off of Linder into Deer Crest to go
into my home. I live in a cul-de-sac. And a gentleman was coming down Linder and he
wanted to go into the Walgreens on the corner and when he did he went into that -- what I
call a suicide lane and he came right in at Deer Crest, which was head on into me trying to
make my left-hand turn. That has happened many times. I watched it over and over and
over again. Two of those children that have been hit have been hit right on the corner of
Deer Crest and Linder and I have been out there both times. When lunch comes and
after school and sometimes even before school, the high school kids are collecting not
only at the Dutch Bros, but they are also in mass at the Walgreens. So, you know, I'm not
complaining, because kids have open campus. They are a high school, they should be
responsible. However, there is so much foot traffic there that my concerns are for those
individuals. Not only that, but for myself. I went out to take the dog out the other day to
the groomer and I sat a good ten minutes before I could even make a right-hand turn. I'm
not even talking about making a left-hand turn out of my cul-de-sac, I'm talking about
making a right-hand turn into the traffic. When the high school is in session it is awful out
there and I know that we have growth and it's going to continue to grow, but I think we
need to take some consideration about the types of buildings we are putting in there. We
were here about seven years ago when you were going to put the Walgreens in and we
discussed these traffic issues at that time with the City Council. I'm sure that's in the
notes and at that time, you know, everybody said, oh, you know, we do traffic studies, we
do all of those. I don't know if we have done one here, but I think that if you don't live in
that area and you have never been in that area you might want to just come check it out.
It has gotten really, really bad and I know we are continuing to grow, because everything
around us is building and I understand that and I'm all for the business and I'm all for the
growth, but I think we really need to take a look at the amount of driveways that are there
and the amount of traffic that comes in and out of those driveways. And my other thing I
would like to say, which probably doesn't have anything to do with Sonic, but I'm not
understanding why, when we are going to build a huge apartment complex in that area
and these buildings, that we are not, as neighbors, getting notification before everybody
buys the property or does what they are going to do. Why are we not notified that those
things are happening. They put in that huge apartment building there and now they are
building tons of townhomes on the other side. Are we considering that traffic when we are
considering putting in these massive drive-ins on that corner? I appreciate it if the city
would look at that. Thanks.
Yearsley: Thank you. I don't have anybody else signed up. Is there anybody else that
would like to address this Commission? Please come forward. Again, state your name
and address for the record.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 16 of 45
Peters: My name is Barry Peters. I'm an attorney in Eagle. The office address is 101
Eagle Glen Lane in Eagle. I believe the committee has seen the letter that I had
submitted on behalf of the owners and developers of the Linder Springs project, of which I
am actually one of them. Since that letter was sent to you and as -- if you have read it you
have seen that our primary concerns were issues of sound and light coming across the
road. In the time since we prepared and submitted that letter, we have had an ongoing
discussion with the developers. There have been modifications made to their plan, both in
terms of lighting to make sure that the light is -- is directed downward and not outward and
especially modification of the landscaping and increasing the size of that wall at the rear of
their property to -- as a buffer to the sound. With that -- with those steps that have been
proposed, as long as the final product looks like what -- the design that I have been
seeing this evening, we are prepared to withdraw that -- those objections. We do
appreciate the quick response we have had from the developers on that.
Yearsley: Thank you. Please come forward.
Turnbull: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, my name is David Turnbull with
Brighton Corporation. My address is 12601 West Explorer Drive in Boise. As you
probably are aware we are the developer of all the Paramount Subdivision. This property
was zoned in 2003, long before the high school was there, it was part -- you know, it was
all part of the same application. Traffic studies were done at that time and processed
through Ada County Highway District. We all recognize that there are peak hours that
come with things like a high school and, you know -- you know, if -- if -- if you were to
listen to some of these arguments you would probably never build a high school
anywhere, because nobody would want them anywhere near them. But this is a major
road, Linder Road. We, in a cooperative development agreement with ACHD, improved
that to a five lane intersection a number of years ago. So, I'm not trying to minimize any
traffic concerns, but I am suggesting that the traffic studies have already been processed,
they have already been taken into consideration. This 18 some acres here that was
zoned as C-G was always in place when those considerations were taken place. A use
like Sonic is an allowed use and an anticipated use and I really appreciate the two
developers that we have worked with on this getting together and working out their
respective issues. I understand, you know, the concerns for the landscaping setback and
so forth, but as Jeff Huber has explained, they have an abundance of landscaping, they
have offered to put up a two foot berm with a six foot high wall on top of that. In addition
to that we worked with the Linder Springs developer to modify their plan a month ago from
a wrought iron fence to more of a privacy fence as has been explained. This building
probably -- this setback between these buildings is substantial. I think -- there is 45 feet to
the curb line, another 30 feet to the curb line for Sonic and, then, you have got 37 feet of
accumulative landscaping before you ever get to the building. So, I think they have done
a really nice job of designing this. This ups the standard for any previous Sonics we have
seen in this valley. So, I hope you will do as Jeff suggested, which is interpret the intent of
the code, because I think it's clearly been met. W e are fully supportive of this. Glad to
hear that the two neighboring users here, Linder Springs and Sonic, were able to work
through their differences as -- as Mr. Peters has just mentioned and I will stand for any
questions that you have.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 17 of 45
Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions? Thank you. Anybody else? At this point
we'd like to ask the applicant to come forward.
Huber: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We noticed the neighborhood as per the addresses we
were given to by the Planning and Zoning Commission. On March 4th we held a
neighborhood meeting at Gino's Restaurant from off of McMillan Road and we posted the
property in conformance with the requirements of the city with a sign ten days before this
hearing. So, I'm a little in the dark why the neighbors were saying they were not notified.
Do you have any further questions?
Yearsley: Any other questions?
Huber: Okay. All right. We would request that you delete those two conditions that I
pointed out, Condition 1.3-C and 1.3-B, and that you modify conditions 1.3-A to relocate
that one tree over to the north parking area. Thank you.
Yearsley: Thank you. At this time I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing
on CUP 15-005.
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver.
Oliver: I move we close CUP 15-005.
Fitzgerald: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on CUP 15-005,
Sonic Drive-in. All in favor say aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Yearsley: So, comments? Anyone want to go first?
McCarvel: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel.
McCarvel: Close enough. I'm really thinking those parking stalls should be eliminated. I
just -- I think I'm in support of -- of that addition. It's -- it's just -- it's a lot there and -- I
mean it doesn't take many cars to get backed up in those first couple -- it's just a problem
waiting to happen, in my --
Yearsley: Okay. Anybody else?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 18 of 45
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chair? The only thing I think with -- in that regard this is a brand new
setup for a Sonic with a bunch of seating inside and I think that's -- you're only leaving, I
don't know, 20 spots in the -- on that west side of the building, which makes it -- it could
make it difficult. I understand the concern.
McCarvel: Yeah. Even just eliminating the first, you know, three there would help. I don't
know what you would put there so people wouldn't pull in there, though, but -- yeah, you
wouldn't have to eliminate the whole row, because it's not going to back up that far, but,
like you say, you got a lot of inattentive drivers going in there, but --
Yearsley: Any other comments?
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? The one thing I would like to point out is this has been
developed as a mixed use density product for ten plus years. The Brighton Corporation
brought in on both corners and -- well, multiple corners when Paramount was first brought
in. They did an exceptional job of laying that out. This is a commercial zone. It's going to
be zoned commercial for the long term and if it's not this it's going to be something
different. I appreciate what Sonic brought. I think it's a new product. I think it looks good.
I think the staff's thought it out well. I don't know what to think about the parking stall
issue. I do think for the wall that -- on the east side is -- is good and the berm should be
there. So, I think -- I think that use makes sense for where it is on Linder. I do understand
there is a traffic issue and I -- I don't think that's going to get resolved in this situation. It's
a commercial zone and there is going to be something else that's going to go in here for a
different use. So, I like the project as it is right now, but --
Yearsley: Thank you.
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: I'm sorry. We have already had the public testimony. Sorry.
Oliver: Can I ask the staff --
Yearsley: Yes.
Oliver: Could you go back to the goal -- what say -- the aerial view of the property? If I'm
looking at it correct, 4850 is Walgreens?
Watters: Yes.
Oliver: Yes. And so that would be right behind to the north of Walgreens. Right across
the street is 4853 and I believe that's a new Icon Credit Union. Is that correct?
Watters: That's correct.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
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Oliver: As well as that has two drive-ins; is that right? For that as well. So, you have
already got on one side that's already been put into place for a credit union that has a
drive-thru. Walgreens has a drive-thru. I -- I just don't see anything that I consider that
would make me change my mind that it's going to make any difference if you add a Sonic
to it. So, with the recommendation that I see from the staff I don't see any problem with it.
It looks good.
Yearsley: Okay.
Wilson: I just wanted -- just to be clear then. So, what are -- I know kind of where you're
at, then, on -- in terms of just accepting the staff recommendations, except for the parking
at the south side.
Fitzgerald: I'm a little concerned with eliminating those parking stalls.
Wilson: Okay.
Yearsley: And I would like to comment on a little bit of this, too. Per code the city -- you
know, we notice kind of a 300 feet surrounding the -- the property. Unfortunately, that's
not -- you know, by the time you get the roadway involved there and -- so, it's not picking
up a lot of homes on the other side of the street, but that's the requirements that we have
to go by is the 300 foot. So, I'm sure that's why a lot of your neighbors didn't get the
noticing is because of the -- you know, the proximity of the property to the homes.
Transportation issues -- ACHD has looked at this project, has -- has determined what
traffic is going to incur from this and has approved this -- the project. If I'm -- from looking
at the -- the staff comments and report they -- they took into account this type of facility
and traffic in this area. So, I understand that traffic is bad. I live not very far from a high
school as well and deal with traffic and driving my daughter to and from school every day
is -- can be a challenge. So, I understand. But it's not -- where we don't maintain or own
the roads, it's not under our purview to -- my opinion to reject an application based on
traffic. It's got to be from ACHD's perspective and they have -- they have already
approved that portion of it. With regard to the moving the tree from the south -- southwest
to the northwest corner, I don't know if I have issues with that one as well. The drive aisle
stacking, the property -- or the -- I guess manager of one of the Sonics, he said he had 43
cars in an hour, not at one time. So, you know, there may be some certain times that you
may not want to park on those first corners, but I think over time people will know where to
park and I don't know if I have issues leaving those as parking stalls. As regard to the 25
feet setback with the adjacent property owner, rescinding his objections to that, I don't
know if I have an issue in not supporting that to City Council of leaving it the way that they
have designed that. So, those are kind of my -- my take on this situation and I would be
interested if anybody else had any other concerns or comments. With that I would
entertain a motion.
Fitzgerald: Looking at me?
McCarvel: Mr. Chairman?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 20 of 45
Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to approve
file numbers CUP 15-005 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of April
2nd --
Yearsley: Are there any modifications?
McCarvel: I think -- with the tree being allowed to move, 1.3.A, and the buffer is not ours
to deal with; right?
Yearsley: We can make a recommendation on the buffer, but it's not ours.
McCarvel: Yeah. 1.3.D -- or is it B? Recommending that it be shortened with the City
Council approval. And the 1.3-C, leaving the parking as is.
Fitzgerald: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second on file number CUP 15-005, Sonic Drive-in. All
in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Congratulations.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
E. Public Hearing: CUP 15-004 Meridian Martial Arts by Heather
Neitzell Located 535 N. Locust Grove Road Request: Conditional
Use Permit Approval to Operate an indoor Recreation Facility in
an I-L Zoning District
Yearsley: Next item on the agenda is the public hearing of CUP 15-004, Meridian Martial
Arts. Let's begin with the staff report.
Parsons: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. Next item on the
agenda is the Meridian Martial Arts conditional use permit. The subject site is located at
535 North Locust Grove Road. The applicant is here tonight to discuss the CUP
application to operate an indoor recreation facility within an existing 4,000 square foot
tenant space, which is this existing building here. The entire building itself is 16,000
square feet. But they are only requesting to operate out of 4,000 square feet of that. In
looking at the surrounding developments you can see that this property is currently zoned
industrial within the city and all the adjacent properties around it are zoned industrial as
well. Over the recent years the city has approved some multiple indoor rec facility uses in
the area. The most recent one was this back building located to the west of the site. This
was approved three, four months ago, I believe. One other item I'd point out to the
Commission this evening is back in 2012 this same tenant space also received CUP
approval for the same use. It's just that the previous tenant did not commence the use or
go through the building department and meet those requirements and get occupancy to
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 21 of 45
occupy the space and start their business and so, unfortunately, the applicant when they
came and spoke to the city about this, we didn't realize that that previous one had expired
and we told them they had to go back through the process again. So, this has already
been approved on this site once before. Essentially, they are just coming back and asking
for the same approval that was given -- granted back in 2012. Here is the approved site
plan that was, again, acted on with the city in 2005. Again, when the city approved this
site for the industrial uses parking standards were a little bit more minimized -- for industry
zoned -- industrial zoned properties parking was a little more lax in those -- in that zoning
district and because the applicant is coming forward with a more commercial type use,
staff had analyzed this concept plan or this approved site plan and we are recommending
that additional parking be added to the property. Those additional parking spaces are
noted in the staff report that you have reviewed. A majority of the parking would happen
along the west boundary here. Some additional parallel stalls along the north boundary
and, then, staff has also recommended some additional parallel stalls along the east
boundary. If you noted in this plan here, this plan shows an access to Locust Grove, but
one was never constructed with the development of the site. The applicant's hours of
operation for this property will be between 2:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m., Monday through
Friday and, then, on Saturdays it will be 8:30 to 3:30. As I mentioned to you, there are
other indoor rec facilities operating in the vicinity of this property, because these hours
typically offset from industrial type uses and because staff has not received any
complaints from other users in the area, we feel that these hours are appropriate for the
use and we don't see any concerns with this use conflicting with the industrial uses in the
area. And one other item, moving forward staff is going to want the applicant to submit
what we call a certificate of zoning compliance, not only to establish the use within the
tenant space, but also to obtain approval of the new parking plan that I just spoke to you
briefly on. Staff did not receive any written testimony on this application and we are
recommending approval this evening and I'd stand for any questions you have.
Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions? Would the applicant like to come
forward? Would you, please, state your name and address for the record.
Neitzell: This ain't going to be near as exciting as the last one. Jim Neitzell. 13395 West
Payne Street, Boise, Idaho. We are moving into this facility as a -- I think you guys have
all heard the story. We are up on Franklin and what happened to our business. As far as
the parking, that's the only issue. The owner does have a plan to reseal the parking lot.
We would have striped it already, but he's going to reseal it once the weather gets correct
to be able to put the black top down. If we striped it right now, then, the black top is not
going to stick. So, once the weather gets right he's going to reseal and he's already
committed that he's going to stripe it at that time. That's all I got.
Yearsley: Any questions?
Fitzgerald: Are you in agreement with the staff report on the parking stalls that are
necessary when you stripe it?
Neitzell: Yes, sir.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 22 of 45
Fitzgerald: Okay. Thank you.
Yearsley: Thank you. Do you have any --
Oliver: Yeah. Just one question. You mentioned that you're -- you're located on Franklin,
at Franklin and --
Neitzell: We are on Franklin between Locust Grove and Eagle. We moved in there three
years ago. Our business -- we were located at first on Franklin and Linder.
Oliver: Yes.
Neitzell: We moved to Franklin between Locust Grove and Eagle. Our business
exploded. We were doing great and, then, the Planned Parenthood opened up next door
to us and we had protesters and I'm sure you have all heard the stories about protesters
up there and there is nothing that could be done. We had people holding six-by-six foot
signs of aborted fetuses in front of the cars of our students as they came in with young
children. We spoke to the protesters and asked them not to do that and nothing worked.
So, we had to move to survive. That's all we got, so --
Oliver: Thank you.
Neitzell: Thank you, sir.
Yearsley: Thank you. I don't have anybody signed up for this. Is there anybody out here
that would like to testify? I guess if not -- we won't ask the applicant to come back and
talk about what he just talked about, so at this time I would entertain a motion to close the
public hearing on CUP 15-004, the Meridian Martial Arts.
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver.
Oliver: I move that we close the public hearing on CUP 15-004, Meridian Martial Arts.
McCarvel: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor say aye.
Opposed? Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Yearsley: Any comments?
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman?
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 23 of 45
Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald.
Fitzgerald: I -- based on the fact that -- I mean I think Bill did a great job and it's been a
use that we have approved in the past -- sorry to hear about the business situation in the
past. That's brutal. But I think this makes sense and based on the fact that they are going
to go through the staff recommendations I think we are good to go.
Yearsley: Okay. So, I think I'm in agreement -- the same thing and I guess if we all are in
agreement I would entertain a motion.
Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald.
Fitzgerald: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to approve
file number CUP 15-004 as presented by the staff.
Oliver: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
Congratulations.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Yearsley: So, next on the agenda is training and discussions from -- or presentation from
Bill Nary, our legal counsel.
Oliver: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Yes.
Oliver: Could we take a possible five minute break before we begin?
Yearsley: Absolutely.
(Recess: 7:08 p.m. to 7:15 p.m.)
Item 5: Other Items for Discussion: Bill Nary
A. Planning Commissioner Ethics
B. How to Make Good Decisions (Deliberative Process)
C. Legal Procedures and Conducting Hearings
Yearsley: We are ready. Let's reconvene our meeting. Thank you, Brethren -- sorry.
Wrong meeting. Wrong place. Yeah. Bill for coming here today. Appreciate you giving
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April 2, 2015
Page 24 of 45
us a little bit of training. I did recommend that if we do have questions we are going to
kind of drop the formalities and just ask the questions as we -- as we go through the
presentation, so --
Nary: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. It's a privilege to be
here tonight and for those that I haven't met previously, my name is Bill Nary, I'm the city
attorney, and we do like to provide some training and education for our commissions
periodically. I think Commissioner Yearsley has heard this -- some form of this probably
two or three times in his tenure both on the parks commission, as well as here. Hopefully
it's timely. Hopefully some of the questions that you might have -- please, again, it's much
more interesting to have a dialogue. I don't know that any of you want hear me talk for 45
minutes or an hour uninterrupted, so it's perfectly fine to stop and ask questions. You may
have a question that somebody else has as well and so that way we can have a dialogue
and make sure that we are answering what concerns or issues that you may have that
come up in your service on the Commission. So, what we are going to talk about tonight
is meetings. We are going to talk about how meetings are done. We are going to talk
about how meetings are operated and some of the things that I think come up in your -- in
your positions as commissioners. I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission about
15 years ago here in the City of Meridian and so I recognize sometimes some of the
things that you run into and that I ran into when I was in that role and, hopefully, maybe
we can answer some of those questions you might have and, you know, come to a
consensus and understanding of what the law requires. First the open meeting laws.
Everything in the state is governed by the state code, everything in the city is governed by
the state code or the city code. So, the first is we always start with the basics. Open
meeting, the state code requires all governmental bodies have to have open public
meetings. Who does that apply to? It applies to everybody. So, all governing bodies or
public agencies shall be open and that includes commissions, sub committees, any
groups created by the boards or a sub committee that you determine say as a commission
you decide for some reason you're going to create a sub committee of your own
commission members and maybe other members of the public, that's subject to the public
meeting laws as well. What does that entail? Well, it sounds onerous to folks, but it's
really not. What that means is you need to tell people when you're meeting and we need
to keep track of what you talked about. So, there is an agenda, there is a notice, and,
then, there is minutes that are maintained. They could just be recorded. We don't have to
maintain verbatim minutes of every meeting. We do of certain types for certain reasons,
but we are not required to maintain that for every type of meeting. But we are required to
record it, so, then, if someone wants to find out later what you talk about, they have a
means of which to do that. So, many times there are occasions where a board or a body
may say, well, I don't want to do that and the public meeting requirements are so onerous
or that's so time consuming and all that and the reality is it's not. I mean we have staff
that supplies support for that, so that's what's necessary to do the business of the
commission and have a sub committee for some purpose, that's perfectly fine, we just
need to make sure we follow the law and make sure we follow the requirements, that the
law sets out for us and these are some of the specifics. If you have regular meetings you
have to have a five day notice and a 48 hour agenda notice. So, most of you know -- you
see your agenda at least a couple days ahead of time that tells everybody what we are
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
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going to talk about. So, they have an opportunity to appear. We don't amend the agenda
unless there is specific reasons and we will talk about that. So, we post a notice where
you have the regular meetings. It seems pretty obvious. Many times in other agencies
and other bodies sometimes it's not so obvious, because they don't always meet at some
place that everybody knows where it is, but here in the city it's pretty easy. Most
everything is here, most -- all the meeting notices are posted here. We don't hold a lot of
meetings in other places within the city for city commissions or city committees or the City
Council, so everything gets posted here, that makes it pretty easy. We have in the
ordinances when the meetings are held, so that helps in the noticing issue and making
sure everybody knows when you're supposed to be meeting. Special meetings. So,
again, there is a 24 hour meeting notice. If you're going to have a special meeting and,
again, you're going to post the agenda and let people know what it is. If there is an
emergency, which from the commission there is probably not a lot of planning and zoning
emergencies that are going to come up that are going to require an emergency meeting,
but if it were to happen, again, you can, again, try to do your best -- the requirement
allows you to do the best you can to make sure people know about it. Where this really
comes into play most likely is going to be at the Council level when you're having some
other significant issue within our community, whether a flood, whether it's a national
disaster, something like that. They may have special meetings and that's when that type
of statute comes into play. Attorney General. He's my classmate, so I like to make fun of
him in these things, so he, basically, says that the requirement of open meeting laws
should be complied with and should not be evaded by holding smaller meetings with less
than a quorum present or by having a go between contact each other -- each of the
governing body members to ascertain his or her sentiment. In my business we call that a
serial meeting and what we try to do very hard -- although the statutes don't speak to this
specifically, it's clearly the intent of the legislature that when boards meet, commissions
meet, councils meet, that the public know about it so they can go. If I have a meeting and
I decided, well, the best way for us to figure out what to do is I will talk to two of the
commissioners at one time, two at another, one at another time and that way there is
never a quorum of the group, but I can figure out what everybody is talking about and I'm
the funnel, so they will talk to me and I will tell everybody else what we talked about. That
sounds great for some people, but no one is going to know what you talked about and
that's the point. That actually happens and when it does you end up in the newspaper
with your names splashed around that you don't know what you're doing at the minimum.
So, it's something we strongly -- not only strongly avoid, we very strongly make sure we
advise all of our committees and commissions that's not acceptable, that's not something
that anybody should be doing, whether it's staff, whether it's the commissioners
themselves -- you know, those off -- and, again, we will talk about some examples here in
a minute. I'm not talking about running into somebody in the grocery store. We will talk
about that. I'm not talking about an off-the-cuff after the meeting what did you think about
that Sonic discussion you had tonight. That's not what we are talking about. We are
talking about trying to intentionally not have a meeting and gather the information from
everybody to have it off of the record, so the public wouldn't necessarily have an
opportunity to participate. That's what we are going to talk about. We will use some
examples and maybe that will help. Again, written minutes of meetings, again, you're
supposed to provide something to take minutes. You don't have a whole transcript of
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every meeting, you at least have to record it. Certain things we do a transcript or our
stenographer with Dean here, because in the land use arena there are requirements to
have transcribable records and to make sure that there is a transcribed record of what
was discussed. You have appeals from the Planning and Zoning Commission. Tonight's
action that you took in your conditional use permit for a Sonic drive-in is appealable to the
City Council. We need a record of that. We need it in a transcription form, so the Council
can see exactly what was discussed, what was the nature of the conversation, both with
the public and their testimony, as well as amongst the commissioners in making their
decision and, then, they can -- if they do have an appeal they have a way to evaluate what
the record was.
Oliver: Could I have a question?
Nary: Sure.
Oliver: Are those minutes available to any of the members of the public that could see
those notes as well?
Nary: Those are publicly available once they are completed. You can file a public records
request. We do provide them. Machelle, I don't recall if they are posted online at all.
Hill: They are.
Nary: Okay. So, they are online and available on our webpage as well. Many times with
that we will actually direct folks to to sort of make it easier for them. They can find it. But
if they don't want to do that they are not required to go look at it online. They can simply
ask for it under the public records process and get a copy of it that way if they wish.
Hill: We actually have them in two places. We have them on the laser fiche, like you guys
look at, the searchable documents, and, then, we also have them on our website -- the
Planning and Zoning Commission website. All agendas and minutes are added. Once
they are approved we put them on there.
Oliver: So, it's just that last minute -- the minutes we are meeting at that last meeting and,
then, they disappear and go onto the next one or do they stay --
Hill: They are usually -- I think we have a good year, probably, out there.
Oliver: Okay.
Hill: On the website. Yeah. And in laser fiche -- I'd have to look around, but I think we
kind of pull those off maybe a little bit. I'm not sure. I can't remember, but I can look.
Nary: They will always be available from a public records standpoint. So, we will always
be able to acquire them if somebody asks for them, even if we don't have them put on the
website any longer.
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Hill: Right.
Oliver: Okay.
Nary: Social media. So, this is one of the things I think for commissioners is probably the
most difficult to deal with as you initially start on the commission is ex-parte
communication. So, that's receiving off-the-record information or an opinion regarding a
matter that's pending and that's that list here. Informal conversations with citizens.
Unsolicited e-mail or voicemail. Individual site visits. You know, individual research by
commissioners -- your own, you know, interview -- if you got interviewed by the press or
something like that. Social media is the most evolving area of the law we have today, as
you can imagine. Social media changes constantly and the requirements around it -- the
law is always fairly slow to respond to those things. So, the rules regarding it -- to be
honest, many times as a lawyer we are trying to advise our clients and using our best
judgment as to what's appropriate or what isn't based on what has previously been ruled
on, but many times there is no case law that guides us. There is not necessarily a specific
case I could point to. You know, obviously, Idaho is a fairly small state and has a fairly
small amount of case law in the past. There is lots of other states -- larger states,
California, Washington, the eastern states, but, still, even with social media, the law is still
evolving significantly. So, is there a difference between Facebook, Twitter, a letter, an
e-mail, a site visit or a guy in the grocery store? Generally no. It's not -- they are all
generally the same in the sense that you're gathering -- you're getting information or
getting an opinion or giving somebody thoughts on something outside the context of the
meeting. So, what do you do? So, if your concerns are -- or other commissioners how do
you stop them from talking to your neighbors. So, how do you deal with the guy that lives
on the other side of your fence that doesn't want the Walgreens to go down the street from
you? Or how do you avoid driving a specific area? You know, we live in a town that's not
quite as little as it used to be, but it's not uncommon that you're going to have -- before
you -- once you have reviewed your staff report tonight did most of you know where the
Sonic was? Yeah. Sure. You have probably driven by there before, you know, so is that
a problem? Well, let's talk about that. Okay. Oh. One other thing I want to talk about.
You don't have this very often at this level in -- or of a commission, but there are -- there
are means to have closed meetings and those are called executive sessions and those
are allowed by state code in very limited circumstances -- about eight different areas of
discussion you can have off the record. You can't make a decision in that, but it doesn’t
come up much in the context of -- of the Planning and Zoning Commission. So, I wasn't
going to spend a lot of time on it, unless you had a question, but there are means and
times for people to have off the -- off-the-record discussions and you may see that
occasionally in a news article or a news story about that. Usually when you see it it's
because somebody did it wrong and because somebody had an off-the-record discussion
and it was improper in how they did it and that's usually what ends up in the news. So,
that hasn't happened to us since I have been here and it's not going to hopefully be us,
but those things happen. But I just wanted you to know there are means in the code to
have off the record meetings. But in your context it doesn't come up very often. This is
from an Idaho Supreme Court case. Again, when a governing body deviates from the
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public record it's, essentially, conducting a second fact gathering session without proper
notice and the rule of thumb again -- try to avoid ex-parte communication about any
matters that are pending a discussion at a meeting. Sometimes in -- and part of the
problem with that is you don't always know, okay? You're not always sure as to whether
or not this is going to be heard. Your safety net is to say, look, that might come in front of
us, so I probably can't discuss that with you. If you want to, for example, you have an
interest, because many of you are here because you're engaged in your community and
you're engaged in your neighborhood and you have an interest in what happens in the
city. That's perfectly fine and no one is asking you as a member of this commission not to
be engaged civilly in what's going on. You may need to recuse yourself from that
particular subject because of it. You may decide I really want to -- I want to be an
advocate for this good or bad and I support my neighbors in this. Or I don't really want to
-- I don't really want to be on the wrong side of dealing with the neighbors on this issue. I
really don't want to cause that much friction, I just want to recuse myself. I think it's a
conflict. I do have a stake in the outcome to some degree and so if that's the case just
need to declare that conflict and you can recuse yourself. That's not an issue. So, before
we get to the examples let's talk a little bit about running the meeting. Again, the agendas
are required by law. Again, they are an open meeting requirement that an agenda be
posted. An agenda may be provided -- a good faith effort is to include -- include in the
original agenda all the items known to be talked about. Occasionally you may see this in
front of you and occasionally you may see it at the Council level where something comes
up and they ask to amend the agenda to either continue an item like you had tonight, to
add an item because something has come up and we have the findings complete and
they have asked us to move this up in time to get this approved. Minutes maybe got
completed earlier than they anticipated and they want to add it to it. You're perfectly fine
when you adopt your agenda that's one of your agenda items, that's really when you're
adopting the agenda. The purpose of the notice is to give people notice. If there is
something about that -- and usually either your chair or the staff or your counsel -- and
Ted, of course, is normally your attorney that staffs these meetings -- were to advise you if
there is a concern that there is something that -- that adding that item without notice, other
than right this minute, is probably not proper. There may be people that have an interest
in it versus something that's not controversial. Again, approving minutes -- if you have
already made a decision and all you're approving is the staff report or the findings, again,
at this juncture there is no -- there is no decision making left, you're probably going to be
okay with it. But if there is something else we are going to add an item and talk about,
that may be -- there might be an issue for somebody to be here for, your staff is probably
going to recommend don't add that. No matter if, in fact, somebody's asked you, you still
have to make a decision and the staff may recommend not doing that for that reason.
Again, the agenda can be amended after it's posted. The agenda also can be amended
during the meeting and what the state requires is that if you amend it during the course of
the meeting that you have to state on the record why you're doing it now and, essentially,
what this legislature was looking for was they felt like at some point it's got to be
somewhat final and if you're going to add something now. So, this doesn't probably
happen again at the commission level, but once in awhile we have had it happen at the
City Council where we may have an executive session to discuss a matter, you're not
allowed to make a decision there and they are going to come out of the executive session,
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because they amend the agenda, add that particular item and get a vote on it and get
direction as to something to do and so they will amend the agenda at that point and their
reasoning is we weren't aware that we needed to until now. So, it doesn't prohibit it, it just
makes sure that you're going to make the public aware of why you chose to do that. If
someone has an objection there is a means in the code to address that at a later time.
So, who sets the agenda? This is a discussion that happens in many many cities, both at
the council level and commission level, as to who is in charge of the agenda. Department
staff many times is setting the agenda for you, because it's driven by the code. When
people file things it has a date in which those are going to be heard. Those are noticed,
so there has already been notice, we have told everybody this is the date we are going to
hear it. So, many of the agendas set by the staff by the application process that exists
and those are all driven by the code. Occasionally the chair is going to have an item the
chair would like to bring in front of the commission and make sure you have an
opportunity to discuss it. So, the chair has that. The ultimate authority is the commission
itself, because, again, there is often -- the agenda isn't -- isn't just a routine or a
perfunctory item, it really is intended for you to say this is what we are wanting to talk
about. If you don't want to talk about something you're not required to, unless it's driven
by a statue. But ultimately you get to add something -- any commissioner can ask to add
something. If the commission is willing to hear it they can do that. So, it is your
responsibility and so ultimately the commission or if the City Council -- they can make the
final call, but many times from a practicality standpoint you're not here everyday to be able
to set some of the other things, so that's why the staff does it, that's why the chair may do
it. But ultimately when you're approving the agenda that's what you're saying is this is
what we are going to talk about. So, again, protocol, past practice, expediency and,
again, you are the final call on that particular issue. Again, executive session, just wanted
you to be aware what that is. Unless you had questions about it, we can go onto some of
the other items. Can you have an open mike discussion? We have this debate often with
other city attorneys and some cities do it. We here at the city strongly recommend against
it for a variety of reasons, but the number one reason is open mike, which is -- what that is
is some cities will come to the end of the meeting -- especially city council where people
actually show up, because, sorry, not as many people show up to this just to watch what
goes on as the City Council might, and they will at the end of the meeting say does
anybody have anything you want to talk about? Well, the number one problem is you
have no idea what anyone is going to say, which can be good or bad. Secondarily, it's not
noticed. So, what do you do with it? You know, you're asking somebody to bring you
something, you haven't noticed for anybody. Many many times the staff has no idea what
this person has an issue with and you don't have enough information to make a decision
about anything. So, you have opened the door to a person, which sounds really good
from a political standpoint, but the reality is you have created this sort of false sense of --
of accomplishment, because you can't do anything with their information. The likely
outcome is normally going to be, well, we will set that for a future meeting and tell you
when you can come back and talk to us again, because we need more information from
staff, we need to look at what the law is, we need to be advised, we don't have any way to
address your concern. So, what we have done here at the city is we will direct those to
either the city attorney's office, to the clerk's office, or to the Mayor's office and people can
request to get on there and they explain what do you want to talk about, what is it related
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to? Is it something the Council can hear? Is it something that they can make a decision
on or address in some fashion? City council meetings are business meetings and
commission meetings are business meetings. They are not open forum for folks to come
and vent their feelings about whatever they want to talk about. That's not the point. The
point is to conduct business. So, if there is no business, then, they may not get heard,
because there is really nothing for them to do, unless it's related to a project or something
that's going on. But that's ultimately the decision of the Mayor, the Council. Part of it may
be -- may be a decision of the chair or the Council or the Commission what they are going
to hear and based on whatever the staff's recommendation is, but we strongly do not
encourage that type of thing, because, again, there is not much that you can do with it and
it totally -- it violates your agenda issue, because you have -- you haven't told anybody
what you're going to talk about. Your standing agenda items. Those are a little different.
So, that's what your Consent Agenda is and a long time ago we didn't have Consent
Agendas at the Council level or at the Commission level, so every single item -- every --
you don't have a large Consent Agenda very often, but every item you would vote on
separately and so we found that it was more expedient to take things that are not
controversial, that everybody's in agreement with, that there is no objection to, like your
findings, like your minutes, and group them together and pass them in one motion. So,
having that standing item -- and our Council agendas have a number of different standing
items they have and I don't recall, the commission, if they have a future topics discussion,
but like, for example, at the City Council, at the end of each meeting they ask the Council
Members is there a topic they would like to hear at a future meeting, so that we can
schedule that for a certain time. There is certain items that we may hear -- send in reports
from the different commissions of the city annually they bring back a report of what they
have accomplished or what they have done. So, those kinds of things are okay. It's the
more random things that we have a concern with, because, again, if we don't provide
proper notice to people.
Fitzgerald: Bill, you can move a Consent Agenda item to the regular order of business by
Robert's Rules; correct?
Nary: Yes.
Fitzgerald: At anytime?
Nary: Yes. You can simply ask to have it moved if you want to discuss it, because,
basically, what you're saying in a Consent Agenda item is you all agree. If you want to
discuss it may be because you don't agree or it may be because you need some
questions answered for you, then, to agree. So, that's -- it's perfectly legitimate to say I'd
like to have it removed and have it for a discussion item, so that way you can, again, have
consent at the end of that and, then, you will vote separately on that item alone. Again,
the purpose of most of these laws that they -- philosophically when you get right down to
it, both agendas and setting, the public meeting requirements and even the public records
we are talking about, it's trying to make sure that government is inclusive and that we are
not providing roadblocks or barriers to people that just want to participate. It other cities
again we have had other issues where many times, for example, they may have a sub
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committee of the council or a subcommittee of the commission that meets and discusses
all these items at a meeting that isn't treated the same and given the same sort of
seriousness as your commission meeting, yet all the decisions are made there and
someone comes back to that commission or the council and says the committee decided
X and they just do it. And, again, is that inclusive? You know, my recommendation to the
city when they do that is that they should stop doing that. That's not the way the public
has an opportunity to participate. You know, don't -- don't hold meetings at 3:00 in the
afternoon when most people can't go. Don't try to -- you know, try to find ways that might
be convenient for staff, but the public can't participate. That's not the point. They are
supposed to have the opportunity to be there and we as the government I think need to
make sure that we are always providing that opportunity for people to say their three
minutes of what they would like to say. So, is it a meeting or not? This is really an issue
that comes up a lot at the Council and we are going to talk about that and some examples
here in a second. But this is my own shorthand that I always use with folks and say this is
what we are doing, is this an open meeting violation or not and I usually start with is it a
meeting or not a meeting. Because if it's not a meeting, then, the open meeting law don't
require you to do anything. If it is a meeting it does. As basic as that sounds many times,
examples we can come up with, it's not always very clear. This is, obviously, a meeting.
Right? We put up a notice, we got them served, you got your name plates up there, that's
a meeting, it's pretty obvious. A meeting is convening to make a decision or deliver a
decision and you're getting information. Sometimes you're making a decision, sometimes
you're not, but you're getting information and the purpose of that information is for you to
make a decision today or at some point in the future about something, whether it's a
project, whether it's a -- some type of staff application, code change, whatever it is. There
is a quorum. That's also critical. You have to have half plus one of the body that's seated
here. So, with our commission there is five members. Some of our commissions say plus
two, certain number of members. Our parks commission has up to nine. Our arts
commission has up to nine. When it says up to whatever number it is the quorum is
based on how many people are currently appointed to that commission. So, if the parks
commission has only seven people that are currently appointed, then, the quorum is
based on seven, not nine. Yours is fixed by statute, so it's five. So, the quorum is always
three. It's always half plus one of the full board. So, is there a quorum present, so are
you having -- are you talking about something that's related to a decision and is there a
quorum -- again, receiving, exchanging information or exchanging opinions is what we are
talking about, that makes it a meeting. So, here is an example. Four commissioners
meet each other at a dinner party. You talk about Boise State. I can't imagine why, I went
to the University of Idaho, I don't know why you would bother to talk about Boise State, but
if you were is that a meeting? Clearly it's not a meeting; right? You're just talking about
stuff generally, it's a social atmosphere, it's certainly not something you're gathering for
future. I don't think BSU is moving over here, I don't think they are going to be Meridian
State University anytime soon, so I don't think it's probably something that's going to come
in front of you. So, I think you're pretty safe. Four commissioners meet each other at a
dinner party and talk about when the commission should look or take a study of the
Comprehensive Plan designations within the city. Is this a meeting? Well, no, it's not a
meeting, because there is no notice, there wasn't an intent to have a discussion, I would
assume nobody went to the dinner party thinking, hey, I hope everybody is there so we
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can talk about this. So, that wasn't intended, this was an informal gathering, and nobody's
delivering any information, but should you do it? Well, I'd recommend you not do that.
One, you must have better things to do at social gatherings than talk about your
commission stuff. Secondarily, what will happen is that discussion still is relevant to your
later discussion if you actually have a discussion at a future meeting about doing further
study of the Comprehensive Plan designations in the city and you're asking staff to do
that, well, it probably came out of that meeting; right? So, now you need to tell folks, by
the way, we did this, but, again, that's not the decision -- that's not the reason we are
making the decision today, this came up informally, now you have to tell everybody about
it and now we are going to take action to do something, so is it the end of the world? No.
But, again, you probably have better things to do. People are going to think you're pretty
odd if you're talking about the commission at a social gathering anyway, but having to
clarify that for everybody is really problematic and sometimes it's not that simple and so
try not to do that, try not to even get yourself into that -- you know, if you think it's
something that all of a sudden it really seems interesting, just remember, hey, let's just
talk about it on Thursday when we are there and not worry about it right now. So, you're
still at the same dinner party, so you guys obviously spend a lot of time together -- and
you talk about requesting a consultant to provide analysis of the comp plan, some change
that's going to be on the agenda. Is this a meeting? It does start to sound kind of like a
meeting. Now it sounds like it's intended, that we are really trying to do something that --
we are -- we didn't think we came to a meeting -- at the dinner party to have a meeting,
but we are certainly getting a lot further engaged in what we are doing and this business
of what's our future discussion topic going to be and it really is the level of detail that really
drives that discussion and if someone were to, then, ask our office is this an open meeting
violation, the answer would probably be yes. Now, is that a problem? Well, it's not as
huge a problem as it might sound and we will talk about that in a second. But the
recommendation, don't talk about business if you don't have to. So, again, opposite of
what we have talked about. Two commissioners see each other at a dinner party and
they chat about the CUP application coming up on the agenda. So, you know this is
coming and you see another commissioner at it and say, hey, did you read that staff
report and what did you think of that? Is it a meeting? Well, no, because, again, there is
no agenda -- or, excuse me, there is no quorum. So, that's not a meeting, but, again,
what are you going to have to do? Well, when you come to the meeting now you have got
to tell everybody again I was at the grocery store, I ran into Commissioner Wilson, we
talked about it for ten minutes, I didn't have a decision about it, I didn't do anything, and
what happens is is that people wonder, you know, of you folks have been involved in the
government to a little or a lot and that's why you're here. People don't always think we
have the greatest intensions no matter what we do and they just wonder what's up. Who
-- you know, who talked to you, who influenced it, who -- you know, who outside of this
meeting when that's really when they should have the opportunity to participate, has
influenced the outcome. So, these kind of things, again, they are not violating the laws,
you can cure them, but it makes people suspect on your individual integrity, your
individual honesty in being here and why do that, you know. But you're here because you
want to be involved, why does anybody question that, even by something as innocuous as
something like this. So, there is two types of hearings and you actually do both of them.
There are legislative hearings, which are matters of general concern. Most of those would
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be related to ordinances. So, the Uniform Development Code that is -- drives everything
that happens in planning and zoning, that's within your purview. The changes that come
are -- come to you first. You hear the public's input about it first. The public input is driven
by the way the ordinance is crafted, it allows the public to give you that input. It allows the
public on occasion to actually prevent -- provide their own amendment to the ordinances if
they want to. But those are called legislative hearings, because they are a matter of
general concern. They don't involve an individual project, individual person. The
application of the result applied to everybody, so the ordinance comes about that applied
to everybody, not to one individual. The others are quasi-judicial and that's the area that
is the most critical for the Planning and Zoning Commission. It is the quasi-judicial. Due
process is required and what due process simply means -- it's a legal term that says
everybody gets a fair chance to have their say. That's their day in court that everybody
talks about. That's what due process is. And so now you have specific rights. Now
somebody who owns property is affected, either good or bad, by what's in front of them,
and they want an opportunity to tell you that. So, whether it's a Sonic that wants to move
across the street, whether it's an apartment complex that wants to move there, whether it's
800 homes that wants to move on the other side of their fence, it's affecting them
individually and they want an opportunity to tell you. Those are the ones that require us to
have a transcribable record like we provide. Those allow hearings that require notice. We
will talk about notice in a second. Those require -- those allow the opportunity to appeal,
not just your decision, but they can appeal the City Council's decision that is made to a
court. There is a lot of case law out there on planning and zoning issues and how those
have been done and so all of that due process is afforded to those individual, because
their individual rights -- their property rights in some way are impacted. So, again,
legislative hearings that we talked about, agenda notice is sufficient. We don't require
mailed notices, just because you're going to change the ordinance, unless the ordinance
requires it specifically. Information is shared with the public, again, comments are taken.
Even after passage you can change the law again. So, without even -- you can change it
one week, you can repeal it or recommend to repeal it at another time. You can amend it
at a certain time and Council does that occasionally. Most things legislatively can all be
done and operate -- not exactly how the legislature -- the state operates, but similarly in
the sense that they can be changed without necessarily going through a very elongated
process to do so. Again, quasi-judicial land use is the most common one you're going to
see. Due process or not having due process can be actionable in itself and we can talk
about that in regards to notice. We do require verbatim minutes, so now, again, we are
not talking about just either summary minutes or recorded minutes, we actually have to
have a transcript. Courts don't listen to tapes. Courts want to read what was said, so all
of it has to be put in writing to them. No ex-parte comments. So, then, your neighbor at
the grocery store, your cousin who doesn't like that project, all if it has to be on the record.
That's the key. So, the record is the thing. So, if somebody at that juncture says -- sees
you in the grocery store, hey, I know you're on the Planning and Zoning Commission and I
don't like that thing that's coming in across the street. Your response should be: I can't
discuss it. I need you to come to the meeting. You're welcome to submit something in
writing or come and tell us in person, but that's where I have to hear it. So, please, don't
share anything more with me. And it's very off putting to folks and I recognize, again, for
you folks that can be very difficult. For our Council members it is painful, because they
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get elected by being responsive to the problem, but it's one area of the law that we have
to remind them over and over again that's just something you have to do. They have to
make sure the person -- you have to tell them here is your opportunity to tell us. Not here,
because I'm one person. You got to tell the whole group and this is how you do it.
Provide it in writing, we will definitely have it as part of the record, or you can come and
talk to us in person. Again, the legislative process I don't think -- since some of you have
been on the commission you haven't had any UDC amendments I don't think, but you will
probably. I think we do them at least once a year where we have a list that Planning and
Zoning maintains, some changes that need to come in front of you. Some are small.
Some are significant. Some are just word changes and things like that. So, you will have
at least one opportunity per year, maybe two, to go through that and, again, most of the
times you might have a dozen changes and one of them has an issue to people that you
might hear about and the other ten or 11 are not something that it was concerned with, so
-- okay. So, again, on the quasi-judicial -- again, we have to follow the ordinance, we
have to follow the rules, the statutes, all of that that's been done before. Again, the notice
issue. We will talk about that. It's actually come up again tonight. So, first is who does it.
Now, in a majority of the cases part of the fee that goes to these applications pays for the
noticing to get done. So, first, someone has to do it, what is it? I think you have heard
tonight there is a 300 foot requirement in the state code to send notice. I agree with what
Commissioner Yearsley said tonight, that some of the folks that said they didn't get a
notice may be 301 feet away. They just could be. I don't know. I don't know where they
live. But there is the potential they are more than 300 feet. There is three methods of
notice. So, you mail a notice to people that live within 300 feet. On occasions there is a
couple areas of the law that require for us to have a further mailing, but most of them are
300 feet. So, you get a mailed notice for certain -- for certain people, you post the sign, as
you have all seen them. We have changed the sign slightly over the years to, again,
make them a little more visible, make it so you can see, but the intent of the sign is it's
supposed to draw your attention that something is happening here and now you can pay a
little bit more attention. We don't want you to read a sign this big as you're driving down
the road. We want you to see there is a sign there and hopefully you will see City Council,
the Planning and Zoning, you will see the date. You might see a date and time. That is
what brought your attention to it. Pull over and read the sign if it's that important to you.
That's the intent. We also publish it in the paper. But in this day and age and the
electronic age we live in, many people don't get the paper, but that's what the state code
requires. So, we do publish it in the paper. It's probably the least effective tool, but it's
what's mandated by statue, so that's what we do.
Fitzgerald: Bill, when is it -- when is the thousand foot requirement --
Nary: There are certain types of uses and I couldn't tell you off the top of my head if -- I
don't remember if it's --
Parsons: No. For our purposes in our code it's only wireless communication facilities.
Cell towers.
Fitzgerald: Okay. That's right. Okay. Thanks.
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Nary: So -- and this is the most lawyerly answer I can give you. The law says we have to
have proof that they mailed it to them. I don't have to have proof that you got it. We
presume you got it, because the mail generally works and that's what the law allows. In
every context that I'm aware of, unless it's -- unless you actually have to physically hand
somebody a notice, which in circumstances you do -- the law presumes the mail works.
So, if you mail it by certified mail with a stamp and somebody signs an affidavit saying we
did that, we presume that you got it. So, if you didn't see it or you didn't get it or -- and,
again, many people throw it away, many people don't think it's important. It looks like junk
mail to people. Sometimes they think if it's from the government it's bad news and they
just don't want to -- or they just aren't informed. But the requirement is that it gets sent.
So, you will hear that occasionally. That isn't an issue for you. Because, again, all the
statutory requirements have been met, the staff's already advised you that the statutory
requirements are met. It's been sent, whether they got it or not that's not an issue.
Secondarily, what happens if more than one of them have failed, like you have some -- I
think since some of you have been here where the signs were wrong. That's critical,
because our ordinance says specifically what is expected on the signs. We had one a
couple months ago where the phone number was wrong and it seems kind of minor, but
our ordinance says you will list the phone number of the contact place on the sign. So, if
the sign is wrong we have got to repost or renotice it, because, again, we want to make
sure people have had the opportunity to be there. So, the mailed one isn't as critical, if
somebody says I didn't get it, because, again, I can't -- I can't presume whether or not
they did. But the sign is pretty important, because, again, it's probably the most effective
tool to at least draw your attention to the property to make sure that if there is something
going on someone is going to notice it. So, that's the one where we get the most scrutiny
on is that correct or not correct and, if you not, we better renotice it to be safe. And the
reason being is if it's wrong and a court agrees with the person that it was wrong, we have
to start all over again. It's a lot easier and a lot quicker and cheaper to set it over for two
weeks and do it than to wait until it's four months down the road and it's been approved
and they appeal it and six months from now the court says you did it wrong and now you
either have damages or you have to start over, no one wants to do that. It's a lot easier to
delay it a little bit if there is an error. Many many times the error, you know, is an error
whether it's by the applicant or anybody, but it's one of the things to make sure people
know. The other side of the coin is -- and I don't know the gentleman that was here
tonight, but you will hear that occasionally, it's I didn't get notice. Now, I'm a lawyer and I
usually think, well, then, how did you get here, because how did you know about it if you
didn't get a notice and now you're telling us I want you to continue it, because I didn't get a
notice. The purpose of the notice is so that they can come here to tell you what their
issue is. If they are here, then, they can tell you what their issue is. If there is a reason --
and you have a concern sometimes that maybe they needed more opportunity, it's
perfectly fine for you to ask the question, well, if I set it over for two weeks what difference
would that make? I mean are you saying you need two weeks to gather more information
or something else that would be relevant to what you wanted to talk about and the fact
you didn't get the notice matters. Because most of the time it really isn't that. They are
already here, just tell us what you're concerned with and that should be fine. But it's
perfectly fine to ask them if you have a concern about that, but also, again, if they are here
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they are here, we presume they have gotten it, we presume they have an opportunity to
tell us what they want and, again, if any of the commission or the chair you're concerned
that, again, isn't being held, because they don't have the opportunity to be heard properly
because of it, you can always set it over. This is one -- lots of cities do it a little differently.
I wouldn't say there is one way to do it. The statute doesn't give us specifics on how
hearings are supposed to be done, but this is the way we do it here. You know, we have
the staff speak first. The purpose of that is context; right? Staff isn't a party. We don't
time the staff report. They are there to tell you does it comply with the ordinance or not.
Does it apply with our Comprehensive Plan or not. What things about this have evolved
or changed and what things that maybe either aren't compliant with this -- with the
ordinances or are things that the staff would recommend, because it would improve the
application and it's within your discretion on whether or not you want to grant that. Then
the affected parties. So, the applicant goes next, because, obviously, they are the most
affected party. It's their property. You know, whether they are the agent or the owner
doesn't really matter, it's their property, it's their money, they are the affected party. So,
the rest of it is really -- every city sort of does it different. They have -- and I have made a
bullet down here. Some cities have people sign up as pro, con, or neutral and they will
actually say we are going to hear all the pros, we are going to hear all the neutrals, hear
all the cons and sometimes it could be very cumbersome even -- it's not always that clean.
Many people that say I'm neutral really will get up and say they don't like it. And, then,
people that think they are pro are the developer's representative, so they are all in favor
of, but is that part of really the developer's presentation? Many of those that are against it
might also be for it in some regard, but maybe against it in others. So, I think that's kind of
cumbersome. We don't really try to do that. We don't try to effect -- because the purpose
is that they are telling you. They are not rebutting each other and that was my -- I guess
disagreement with other cities when they do it that way -- the rationale was if somebody
comes up and speaks negatively, then, somebody else is going to come up and speak
positively -- well, and I have heard that and maybe they have a different opinion --
personally, I don't care what their opinions are, they are telling you. That's the purpose. It
has nothing to do with whether or not the person who is in favor of it disagrees with a
person who is against it. They are telling you their opinion and, then, you decide where
does it go and what happens with it. So, to me the order doesn't matter, because they are
not debating each other, they are providing you with their opinion about the topic.
Written correspondence should be acknowledged. Usually the staff has made comment
of that in their staff report, we have received this many notices, so it's in the staff report. I
think some of you may have been here a few -- I think it was last year where we got a
whole bunch of written applications -- or written comments at the meeting and the chair
took a break so you could read it, because there was so many negative letters that they
wanted to provide and so I thought that was a good move by the chair to say, you know
what, we probably should read these, instead of just -- assuming most people can read
them while you're sitting there, but, then, you can't really do both. I thought that was really
good. That hadn't happened before, so that was an interesting way to deal with that. The
only thing that matters in the code -- and you have probably seen this since you have
been here -- is the applicant gets the final say, because, again, it's their project. They are
affected. So, they have the opportunity to rebut it and occasionally -- and I don't
recommend you do it, but sometimes it may make sense to do it -- somebody from the
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audience wants to get up again and say, wait a minute, that's not right. Now, sometimes
they just disagree and sometimes they actually have a relevant reason that the person
that just told you something isn't telling you the truth and they have a way to show that
and it's not as easy to discern that sometimes from the chair's position, but if the decision
is I'm going to let this person come up again and occasionally that does happen, make
sure that the applicant still has the last opportunity to rebut that. It is their project. It is
their opportunity to -- I mean they get the last word. And many times -- the Mayor does
this very well -- as a council when we have that -- I want to get up now, she will say -- no
matter how many of you talk he gets to say the last word and suddenly people say, okay,
well, it doesn't make much sense for us to keep doing this, but all you're doing is delaying
it and so it helps diffuse that and, again, once you have heard them once you're not
obligated to hear them again. They get three minutes and at the -- I wouldn't say this is
legal advice, but it three minutes -- if they wanted to read the recipe of their grandma's
good butter bread to you, I don't care. It doesn’t matter. At some point they don't need to
waste your time and I get that, but many times people get up and either tell you the same
thing you have heard 15 times before or it doesn't seem to be very relevant to what you're
talking about. But that's okay. That's their three minutes. In my opinion let them say their
three minutes. You will spend three minutes arguing with them on why they can't tell you
something, than to just let them talk to you for three minutes and within reason I don't
think it matters very much. The applicant goes last. The chair does maintain it. I put a
little checkmark by Robert's Rules, because most people don't read Robert's Rules and
Robert's Rules was written in the 1800s and it's really really good for running the Kiwanis
Club meeting. It's not necessarily for running a city council or commission meeting. But
most people recognize -- and you say Robert's Rules what we are talking about and it's
really decorum. It's really a way to make sure we have order. It's really a way to make
sure somebody talks first, somebody talks last, so we don't get really hung up from a
practical standpoint here on did we make a motion before we discussed, do we have
debate before we have a motion and a second. Normally we will have a motion and a
second, but here it has been our common practice for our commissioners to voice their
opinion when you're concluded and closed the hearing before they make a motion, I have
no issue with that. I don't think that's problematic. I think many times it's helpful for the
Commissioners to hear what everyone is thinking. Again the motion at the end matters.
That's what's important. But whether you make it first or make it last as Robert's Rules
might determine, I don't think is important.
McCarvel: I have got a question.
Nary: Sure.
McCarvel: I know there has been a couple of times it's like a question comes to me after
we have closed the question part of everything and I'm like, okay, can I even -- can I ask
the question now or is that done? I mean --
Nary: If you have closed the public hearing what you have done is you have closed the
public's opportunity to provide input.
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McCarvel: Okay.
Nary: So, you know -- but it's certainly reasonable for you to say, Mr. Chair, I had a
question for the gentleman that spoke in the red shirt a few minutes ago and I neglected
to ask it. I'd like to move to open the public hearing so I could hear it -- I have a question
and that's -- you have to have, you know, the approval of the body to do it.
McCarvel: And how about a question for staff?
Nary: Questions for staff are different.
McCarvel: Okay.
Nary: Because, again, they are not part of the public hearing. What we are concerned
with is -- we used to -- we used to leave the hearing open and so -- because there was
concern that we couldn't talk to the staff if we didn't do that, but the reality is, then, you're
just leaving the door open to everybody else, because, then, somebody else is, well, I
want to talk now, well, then, again -- it's just probably something for the chair. But asking
the staff a question about the staff report, again, there are going to be occasions I'm sure
that you will run into where you have closed the public hearing and based on your
conversation or discussion now you really want to hear from the guy in the back row. So,
it's fine to say, you know what, can we reopen the public hearing for just this limited
purpose, so as not to open the door to everybody to come up and tell you again why they
don't want it, it's just to ask that person, hey, you raised the -- now I need that clarified if
it's an issue. That's perfectly fine.
Fitzgerald: So, Bill, in that situation typically does it -- do the affected parties come up
again and close?
Nary: Uh-huh.
Fitzgerald: Okay. That's what I was -- I wanted to make sure that was clear.
Oliver: Is there a time limit on that?
Nary: It's generally the chair's call.
Oliver: Okay.
Nary: You know, we use three minutes for most things. We allow -- like if you're speaking
on behalf of a homeowners association, it's very difficult -- I'm sure Commissioner
Yearsley can tell you -- it's awfully hard sometimes to say I'm here on this HOA. Who are
you speaking for. Three quarters of the people raise their hand. Okay. We will give you
ten minutes. Well, one of those people, which I'm sure he can't keep track of, it's hard
enough for anyone to keep track of -- so, now, wait a minute, that guy didn't talk for me, I
mean I thought he was, but I wanted to bring this up. Well, I can't really prevent them
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from coming up. But if they start, you know, being a chorus, certainly the chair can say,
you know what, folks, I let your spokesman have ten minutes, you're all going to come up
here again, I'm not going to do that again and I'm not going to give you three minutes
anymore. I might give you two or one, because I have heard it and I told you that. But we
haven't had anybody quite that drastic, but we usually go -- allow three and we usually
allow ten and, then, again, we will limit the time on the rebuttal to make sure -- again, you
have got business to do. This could go on all night if you didn't. Violation of the Open
Meeting Act. As I mentioned before, there are occasions that people violate the Open
Meeting Act. You might have noticed -- you may have noticed earlier in the week that the
city of Grangeville outed themselves that they had been violating the Open Meeting Act. It
was in the newspaper and they were voting by e-mail. Can't vote by e-mail. You have to
have a meeting. That's not a meeting. You can't vote by e-mail. And so they -- they
didn't just do it once they did it twice and so most of the time -- if you recognize it -- I have
no idea who the city attorney is. I'm sure we will hear that at our next meeting, but either a
member of the public can bring it up and you have, actually, the ability to fix it and what I
would recommend is if you do it -- and hopefully it would never happen between the
clerk's office, your -- the Planning and Zoning staff and my legal staff, I hope you never
have a violation of the Open Meeting Law, at least in this context, because one of these
people should tell you to not do that. But you should be able to and the law allows that. It
allowed you to fix it so that you can do business and you can correct it and do it properly
without any penalty. Now they are looking -- and I have read they were changing the law
as what the penalty is. I think they have raised the penalty slightly. Not as much as was
originally thought, but -- but there is a penalty, but, again, most of the time it should never
happen. Grangeville is in a pickle, because some of what they did was -- no one raised it,
but it was more than 14 days ago, so they can't fix it technically under the law. What
should happen is what it says in the law that if you violate the Public Meeting Act,
whatever you -- whatever you directed is void. So, it's like you never did it. So, we have
to unravel the staff approval, we have to unravel whatever happened and that's what you
have to do. Again, the board makes the determination if they violated it. The only cases
in Idaho that we have on open meeting violations, they have always determined they
didn't violate it and the court said they did. So, my recommendation would be fix it. Don't
try to pretend like you didn't do it. I mean unless clearly you didn't do it, which won't be
your guys' decision alone, we, hopefully, would be advising you, but the reality is you're
better off just fixing it and not necessarily pretending you didn't do it and let the -- let the
Supreme Court tell you whether you did it wrong. So, do you have any questions?
Oliver: I have a question. I guess just regarding what we were just talking about and I
may be way off, but -- so, let's say if that did happen and we did violate that for a particular
person -- developer and he had paid to have the notice put up and -- what is it, 500 dollars
or whatever it is to post it, and we violated that and we have to come back and wipe that
all off and start all over again in a formal manner whereas the court and whatnot, he
doesn't have to pay again to bring that back up; right? To repost it and --
Nary: Well, we don't have anything in our code or how we would address that. I certainly
would -- we would try everything and if we really felt we had erred, you folks are there, we
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had erred in advising you, whatever it was, I think, though, we'd do whatever we could to
make sure the developer -- that the applicant wasn't harmed.
Oliver: Right.
Nary: Because I think that's the right thing to do, whether the statute requires that or not.
You know, I mean we have certainly done that on more than one occasion, whether it's
something -- we haven't ever had an open meeting violation of any kind since I have been
here. But if we had anything that even -- you know, the staff gave the wrong information
or we provided something incorrectly, we have corrected it, many times we have paid for it
if we have had to. We haven't required them to repay or re-submit another fee or
whatever it is, so we try very hard to make sure we do it right and treat people fairly, but
there is guidance to that, because, again, it presumes you're not going to do it and it
doesn't say what happens if -- besides unraveling whatever you decided, it doesn't say
how else you have to make it right.
Oliver: Okay.
Yearsley: I have one question. And it wasn't quite discussed in this. Could you go over
quickly when we can require something that may not be in the code? You know, in an
application coming forward there is something that we really just don't like that we would
like the developer to do, but we are not quite sure if we are -- have the right to ask for that.
Nary: So, you have -- there are certain areas that you will have some discussion and part
of the biggest one is the conditional use that was in front of you tonight. Part of the code
says one of the requirements of conditional use is that it becomes compatible with the
neighborhood. So, say, for example, that in this case tonight the developer I think had
agreed to put in a masonry wall of some sort as a sound buffer and they didn't want -- they
didn't want to do that and you will have applicants in front of you that won't want to do
anything that the code doesn't say. You have discretion as the Commission to make that
requirement, because, again, under the conditional use it's allowed and that's -- for
example, tonight's discussion -- most of them didn't understand in the neighborhood that
this is allowed. I mean this is the zone. There is no -- there is no legal method to deny
that use. It's already been approved, because that's what it's zoned for. The traffic issue
is totally separate and I think the chair did a good job of pointing out it's ACHD, you know,
they should be talking to them about traffic measures in that area and I would agree that it
is a little bit troubling there. But anything related to compatible with the neighborhood is
within your discretion. Now, again, courts are going to look at what's reasonable. You
know, a masonry wall that's six feet in height and goes 30 feet in length might seem fairly
reasonable and you would want to make sure that you had facts in evidence on your
record to explain why you made that decision. A masonry wall that's ten feet tall, that's 50
feet long, and the developer said, wait a minute, I could put in one wall that costs 600
bucks. What you're wanting me to do costs 10,000 dollars, that's not reasonable. Well,
that's an argument a court could make. It's within your discretion, but you want to make
sure you have some solid ground to make that -- make that decision, but it's still your call.
You know, you folks don't have the final say on annexations, but they are part of your
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packet that you have and it goes to the City Council. Annexation is another area where
you have a tremendous about of discretion. Nothing requires the city to annex your
property. We are not ever required to take you into our city. So, if within reason we ask
you to do certain things, like you want to bring in a piece of property and put this type of
business on it, you will see many times -- and you will see that in front of you even at this,
even though it may not be your final decision, you want the driveway to be this way, you
would like the building to be oriented that way, you don't want it to be quite this high. You
want to have whatever our ordinance requires, but sometimes it is to make it a better
project for the city, because that's in the best interest of the city. That's something the
Council does have to make that decision as to what's in the best interest of the city and it
may be that annexing your property -- because you don't want to do any of those things --
many times developers will agree. They'd much rather be annexed and move forward.
But if they don't many times the council would say, you know, we are not ready to annex
you. We are not interested in that, because we would like certain things to make this a
better project or a better fit for our city and if you don't want to do it, then, we don't want to
annex you. So, those two areas are ones that come to mind the most. Annexation and
conditional uses where you have the discretion within reason to say, you know, hours --
you can limit the hours of operation if that would be more compatible. If the neighborhood
said -- you know, we try to have a lot of things in our code, like the buffering discussion
about -- and I think you raised that, Commissioner Fitzgerald, about the sound buffering.
That's the whole point.
Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Nary: You know. But it's not -- you know, one of the things that the applicant did mention
-- it's not just their sound, right, it's the cars. You can turn down the dial on the speaker
box, but you can't turn down the sound in their car. That requires five feet away. You
want to be five feet away from this back fence and it's noisy and you can't stop the cars
from being noisy. So, that's part of the -- that's the discretion that you folks have and say I
don't want to waive that or we think we need more like was raised the thing about
expenses. That's a tough call. I mean that's one of those things that will make it better or
not? Would having one lane be better than two? I don't know. Those are fair questions
to ask like you did and is this going to block somebody in. I mean I was on the Planning
and Zoning Commission when we approved Arby's. Have you ever been to Arby's here in
Meridian? You have to walk through the drive-thru to go through the front door. I thought
what were we thinking. We weren't looking at that, because that doesn't make any sense
to me to walk through the drive-thru and it's fairly common in a lot of places, but it wasn't
back then. So, it is fair to ask those questions of what makes this a good project or what
makes it compatible. And, again, if it's outside of your discretion or it's excessive, staff or
the attorney is going to tell you, yeah, that's probably too much. You probably can't do
that. But you could fashion -- again, the items of operation are critical to some folks.
Daycares are a great example. If you have a daycare within a neighborhood, many times
that's what's critical to folks. They just don't want people dropping people off in the middle
of the night. I mean they are stuck with this all day, but, you know, it's really intense from
-- for an hour in the morning and really intense for an hour in the afternoon and during the
day there is nothing. So, again, it might be, again, you're going to limit what -- well, you
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can't be five or six, because of the neighbors, you know, because, again, that makes it
more compatible with the neighborhood. We had the discussion -- I believe this was a CU
where we had a discussion with neighbors with the W almart that was built on -- off of
Overland when they came in. Very -- a lot of very unhappy neighbors and they had a
normal fence they were going to build and they wanted something a little more secure.
They wanted to -- because they are right butting up against a large grocery store and a
large parking lot, so they have built a sort of quasi-masonry wall there to create a little bit
better buffer. So, many times that's within your discretion. Just ask. And if you're not
clear or you're not sure, simply ask the staff. You know, is it okay if we asked for this? If
that's reasonable. Again if we are not -- between the Planning and Zoning staff and our
legal staff someone will tell you if you can't do it. But most of the times you have the
discretion in which to do that and the CU is the one that -- like I said, you will probably see
the most that really is trying to make it fit, you know. And, again, many times we don't like
it, but, you know, it isn't significant. Moving a tree. Adding some -- you know, some green
space here. The Wendy's up here on -- off of Main Street has a little escape lane in it. It
has, basically, an exit, because it's a really long lane. We didn't have an ordinance that
required that when that was put in and I was on the commission when we asked them can
you create this, because I didn't want to have 15 cars stacked in a lane and, then,
somebody changes their mind, they can't get out. So, there is a little escape route out in
the middle of that for that reason. It wasn't in the code, but it seemed to make sense and
that seemed to be something that would make it better and so they were willing to do that.
And, again, you can require things within reason to make it more compatible. Did that
answer your question, sir?
Yearsley: Absolutely.
Nary: Okay. Other questions?
Fitzgerald: Other than the signage, is there a reason for continuation that -- if we feel that
we need more information from staff or -- and there is always reasonable in a motion
setting -- because I feel that we need to discuss this further or does everything need to
happen that night?
Nary: Well -- and that's a great question, because the balance you're trying to -- to do is --
especially because most everything in front of you, other than maybe the UDC
amendments, are dealing with applications of projects and time is money.
Fitzgerald: Yeah.
Nary: For every one of these developers time is money. I'd rather you deny me and I can
appeal it and keep it moving than for you to delay it for two, three, four -- especially
because you don't meet every week and you meet twice a month. At times there are --
you do need more information. What I would recommend is if you need more information
that is perfectly fine, at least once, to say, look we need a traffic study back. We need
more information from staff. We didn't -- fire chimed in, but I'd like the fire department to
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 43 of 45
tell us something that really is super relevant to that. What isn't reasonable, in my opinion,
is we need to continue it, because I need to think about it more.
Fitzgerald: No. I get that.
Nary: Yeah. I mean I think you really -- the idea is you will have prepared by reading the
staff report, you're going to come prepared, you have read it, you have got questions --
get your questions answered. Will there be times you can't answer the questions or the
questions can't get answered, because we don't have enough information and that's
reasonable. But on the other side, as you have had a few that were continued at the
request of the applicant, part of it is the public. You know, we have had projects over the
years and we have implemented requirements about renoticing because of where it got
continued and continued and continued and we had, you know, 30 people that showed up
the first time and 20 people that showed up the second time and by the fourth time that we
continued it four people showed up and now I don't know that anybody's paying attention
to it anymore and yet I know somebody is concerned about it. So, those are really the
ones where we said, look, I know the applicant is not ready and they don't want to move
forward yet or -- and that happens, too. I mean you can only do so much to force them to
go forward and you could deny them or you can -- you know, you can take it up if you
wish, but, you know, more than anything you want to make sure the public isn't getting
cheated, that we didn't continue to the point that they lost interest in it or just couldn't keep
up with it, because they have lives. And that's why sometimes you may require renoticing
if you want this continued, that you're going to send it out -- and think if it shows up you
have done the best you can. But that would be my only suggestion -- my only
recommendation that it really isn't reasonable to say set it over just so you have more time
to digest it.
Yearsley: I know typically as a standard we typically -- after three continuations we ask
the applicant to renotice I know a lot of times --
Nary: Yeah. And you're not obligated to continue it. Again, can't get blood from a stone
and you guys want -- most times that's not always the most popular, but on occasions that
is probably going to happen. But, you know, that renoticing is a legitimate request or
direction from the -- from the Commission. We will continue you, but you need to do this.
And, again, most times it's a fairly innocuous cost to doing that than say, okay, then we
are going to take it up today and whether you're ready or not it's not my problem, let's go
on with it, and, then, you know, maybe we are just going to deny it. And there are other
implications on the denial. I mean, again, they could appeal it. That doesn't help them,
because time is money. Appealing it, getting it remanded if the Council agrees with them
just pushes it back, so many times just redoing it is not a big deal.
Oliver: It seems like sometimes that if you get your packet, what, two days before or three
days before the meeting, and if you're going through the packet and you have questions,
you can always call staff beforehand and if you still don't get clarification, then, we go
through the process, then, you can go ahead and deal as we said to get it, but a lot of
times if we can expedite it, you know, just simply calling staff and getting a clarification.
Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission
April 2, 2015
Page 44 of 45
Nary: Absolutely. And that's -- that's what I would recommend is if you're unclear as you
go through the packet, especially -- especially those of you that are new, you know, one
thing I would say, the Planning and Zoning is by far the most interesting commission to be
a part of, because it's really what's going on in our city. But it's not intuitive for everybody.
I mean it just isn't. It is not -- you know, the parks commission is a lot of fun stuff. Right?
Yearsley: Oh, absolutely.
Nary: Green grass and slides and water fountains, that is cool, it's fun, but this stuff is a
lot more complex and, again, like you saw here, it's not only complex, there is a lot of rules
that apply to it and if you do it wrong there is ramifications for doing it wrong. Very few of
our other commissions have that type of burden on them and the parks commission, they
are a recommending body. If they do it wrong the Council can change it and it doesn't
really matter and to be honest, there is very little they can do wrong. But here you could
do it wrong. So, if you're not clear and you're not comfortable with that, my first
suggestion would be to call the staff, whether it's Bill or Caleb or whoever your contact
point is, call the staff and ask them -- I just don't understand this. I mean what's the issue
here, you know. I don't understand why -- why are we having it, what's the hearing -- all
these things that everybody is to get, but, you know, again, one of the things that you will
learn is there is no cure, other than time. Many of the comments and things you may get
from people that are honestly just general citizens may have zero to do with what this is
about. It may have zero to do with what you can decide. Again, you're not in charge of
traffic. You're not in charge of the schools. If somebody wants to complain and you have
a hundred people here saying don't approve because the school is too crowded, that's not
your call, you know, and at some point the chair or one of you are going to say -- they can
tell you, but it's not our call. So, that's not a decision point for us. But if you're not clear
ask the staff. But you will -- I can guarantee -- you don't have to be here very long, you
will have a whole bunch letters on there and you will read through them and think I don't
know -- I don't even know what they are talking about or this doesn't have anything to do
with what I'm thinking what I'm supposed to be deciding on and you're probably right. And
if you need to ask, ask the staff and they will say, yeah, that's -- you're right, there is 15
others in there about that and it isn't an issue for you. Sorry. And at some point we might,
you know, advise the chair -- normally brings it up at the beginning, because otherwise
you will have 50 people up here for three minutes telling you about something that you
don't have a decision point on anyway and at some point -- oh, you may also have -- okay.
We have heard 25 people tell us about the traffic. If you have something different, maybe
now would be a good time to bring that up. We got that. We understand why that's a
problem. Okay. Any other questions? Well, thank you for the opportunity and I hope it
was helpful and, again, we are always available both at the Planning and Zoning staff, as
well as the legal staff if you have any questions. Myself, Ted Baird, you're welcome to call
us anytime. Send us an e-mail if you have questions. We are to make sure you have the
right information in front of you to make a decision with. That's what we are here for and if
there is something you're having struggles with we want to help. Thank you.
Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission
April 2,2015
Page 45 of 45
Yearsley: Thank you. So, I -- we have no more items of business, but we have one last
motion to make.
McCarvel: Mr. Chairman?
Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel.
McCarvel: I move that we adjourn the meeting.
Fitzgerald: Second.
Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. All in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Yearsley: We stand adjourned.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:25 P.M.
(AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.)
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