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2015 04-02Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting April 2, 2015. Meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission of April 2, 2015, was called to order at 6:00 p.m. by Vice-Chairman. Present: Chairman Steven Yearsley, Commissioner Rhonda McCarvel, Commissioner Patrick Oliver. Commissioner Gregory Wilson and Commissioner Ryan Fitzgerald. Others Present: Machelle Hill, Bill Nary, Sonya Watters, Bill Parsons and Dean Willis. Item 1: Roll-Call Attendance: Roll-call __X___ Gregory Wilson __X__ Patrick Oliver __X__ Rhonda McCarvel __X__ Ryan Fitzgerald __X__ Steven Yearsley - Chairman Yearsley: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. At this time we would like to call to order the regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission on the hearing date of April 2nd, 2015. Let's begin with roll call. Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda Yearsley: Thank you. The next item on the agenda is the -- or the adoption of the agenda. The two changes that we do have are the continued public hearing of March 19th of CUP 15-001 and RZ 15-004 -- no. Sorry. Just the CUP 15-001. The Franklin Mini Storage is going to be continued or is requesting to be continued to April 16th and, then, the public hearing for RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 is requesting to be continued to April 16th as well. With that can I get a motion to adopt the agenda? Oliver: So moved. Wilson: Second. McCarvel: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda. All in favor say aye. Opposed. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 3: Consent Agenda A. Approve Minutes of March 19, 2015 Planning and Zoning Meeting Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 2 of 45 Yearsley: The next thing on the agenda is the Consent Agenda and -- the approval of the Consent Agenda and we -- only item we have on that is the approval of the minutes of the March 19th Meridian -- of 2015 Meridian Planning and Zoning Meeting. Is there any comments or questions to that? With that I would entertain a motion to approve the Consent Agenda. Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver. Oliver: I move that we adopt or approve the minutes of March 19th, 2015, for the meeting. Wilson: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 4: Action Items A. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: CUP 15-001 Franklin Mini-Storage by Osborne Enterprises Located 1975 E. Franklin Road Request: Conditional Use Permit for a Self-Service Facility in a C-G Zoning District Yearsley: So, at this time we would like to open the public hearing -- the continued public hearing from March 19, 2015, of CUP 15-001, Franklin Mini Storage. Is the applicant here today? Please come forward. Please state your name and address for the record and just if you could tell us the reasons for the continuation. Thompson: Sure. Mr. Chairman. My name is Tamara Thompson. I'm with The Land Group at 462 East Shore Drive in Eagle. The reason for the requested continuance is we have been working with the fire department on some emergency access, egress, that kind of thing and we just transmitted to Planning yesterday our revised plans. So, we are moving forward. We -- the 16th should be a good day for us. Yearsley: Okay. Any questions for the applicant? Thank you. Thompson: Thank you. Yearsley: So, with that can enter -- I would entertain a motion to continue the public hearing to April 16th. Wilson: Mr. Chair? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 3 of 45 Yearsley: Commissioner Wilson. Wilson: I move we move to April 16, 2015, CUP 15-001, Franklin Mini Storage. Fritzgerald: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing of CUP 15-001, Franklin Mini Storage, to April 16, 2015. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. B. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: RZ 15-004 Verona East Subdivision by Primeland Investment Group, LLC Located East of N. Ten Mile Road and North of W. McMillan Road Request: Rezone of 0.67 Acres of Land from the L-O Zoning District to the R-8 Zoning District C. Continued Public Hearing from March 19, 2015: PFP 15-001 Verona East Subdivision by Primeland Investment Group, LLC Located East of N. Ten Mile Road and North of W. McMillan Road Request: Preliminary / Final Plat Consisting of Four (4) Single Family Residential Lots and Two (2) Common Lots on Approximately 0.62 Acres in a Proposed R-8 Zoning District Yearsley: Next one on the list is the continued public hearing from March 19th, 2015, of RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 of Verona East Subdivision. Is that applicant here? Does staff have any comments on the continuation on that one? Watters: No, Chairman Yearsley. Yearsley: Okay. Watters: The applicant is just revising their plans per staff's comments, so they -- they are from out of town, so they weren't able to be here tonight. Yearsley: Okay. So, with that I would entertain a motion to continue the public hearings. Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald: Can I do this in dual? Yearsley: Yes. At the same time. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 4 of 45 Fitzgerald: Okay. I would move that we continue the public hearing for RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 to April 16th. McCarvel: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to continue the public hearing of RZ 15-004 and PFP 15-001 to April 16th, 2015. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Yearsley: So, now before I go any further, let me explain kind of the process of how this is going to work. We will open the next two items up one by one, starting off with the staff report. The staff will present their findings of the project and how it adheres to the Comprehensive Plan and the Uniform Development Code with staff recommendations. Then we will allow the applicant to come forward to present their case for approval and respond to any of the staff comments. The applicant will be given up to 15 minutes to do so. After the applicant has had a chance to talk we will open it up to the public testimony. There is a sign-up sheet in the back. Anyone wishing to testify may -- may testify and will respond with a show of hands who wants to come forward. The public will be given three minutes to talk about the project and their concerns or how -- what -- their issues. If they are speaking for a larger group and there is a show of hands, they will be given up to ten minutes. After the public has had a chance to testify, the applicant will have an opportunity to come up and to respond to the comments and they will be given up to ten minutes. After that we will close the public hearing and the commission will have an opportunity to discuss and deliberate and hopefully make decisions on the project. D. Public Hearing: CUP 15-005 Sonic Drive-In at Paramount by Ken Lenz Located 4936 N. Linder Road Request: Conditional Use Permit Approval for a Drive-Thru Establishment in a C-G Zoning District Within 300 Feet of Another Drive-Thru Facility and Existing Residences Yearsley: So, with that I would like to open the public hearing of CUP 15-005, the Sonic Drive-in at Paramount and let's begin with the staff report. Watters: Thank you, Chairman Yearsley, Members of the Commission. The first application before you tonight is a request for a conditional use permit. This site consists of .97 of an acre of land, zoned C-G, and is located at 4936 North Linder Road off the northeast corner of North Linder and West McMillan Roads north of the Walgreens site. Adjacent land use and zoning. To the north is vacant undeveloped commercial property, zoned C-G. To the east is Linder Springs Apartments. Currently in the development process, zoned C-G. To the south is the Walgreens Pharmacy, zoned C-G. And to the west is North Linder Road and single family residential properties, zoned R-8 and vacant commercial properties, zoned C-G. The Comprehensive Plan future land use map designation for this site is commercial. The conditional use permit is requested for a drive-thru for the Sonic Drive-in. A conditional use permit is required, because the drive- Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 5 of 45 thru is proposed within 300 feet of an existing drive-thru establishment, the Walgreens pharmacy, and residential uses in Linder Springs Apartments in the C-G zoning district. The site plan and -- excuse me -- submitted by the applicant, as you see there, depicts how the site is proposed to develop with a 2,308 square foot restaurant with a drive-thru, indoor and outdoor seating and drive-in stalls where the customer can order and eat in their cars. Access is proposed by a north-south backage driveway along the east boundary of the site within a cross-access easement recorded with the plat and by a shared access with Walgreens from North Linder Road. Parking is proposed in excess of UDC minimum requirements. A total of 22 drive-in stalls with speakers and 22 regular parking stalls are depicted on the site plan. The landscape buffer along Linder Road was installed with the plat improvements. Because this site is zoned C-G and residential uses abut the site on the east, a 25 foot wide landscape buffer is required to be provided on this site with dense landscaping. The applicant's plans originally showed a five foot wide buffer along the east boundary where driveways aren't proposed, as shown on the plan there on your right. Revised plans have since been submitted, as shown here, that depict a 43 and a half foot long by six foot tall masonry wall within a ten foot wide buffer adjacent to the drive-thru area and is this area right here where my pointer is at. The UDC gives the City Council authority to reduce the buffer width at a public hearing with the notice to surrounding property owners. The applicant plans to make this request. However, the Commission does not have authority to reduce the buffer width. The drive-thru is required to comply with the specific use standards listed in the UDC for drive-thru facilities. Staff has reviewed these standards and finds the drive-thru complies with all standards, except for one. The stacking lane is required to be a separate lane from the circulation lanes needed for access and parking. This is for the drive-thru area here. Although the stacking lane separates into two order lanes right here that merge back into one pickup lane, traffic stacking in this lane during peak hours will block the parking stalls and drive aisles on the south side of the building in this area here and hinder vehicles exiting the site via the one-way drive aisle to the east. To remedy this issue, staff recommends the row of parking directly south of the building is removed and the dedicated stacking lane for the drive-thru is provided in its place. A minimum of 13 foot wide one-way drive aisle should also be maintained for vehicles exiting the site from the drive-in order spaces. Building elevations were submitted as shown for the proposed structure. Materials consisting primarily of stucco with stone veneer accents. The type of stone is proposed to be the same as that used on the Walgreens building to the south for consistency. The hours of operation are restricted from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., because the site abuts a residential use, the apartments to the east. No written testimony has been received on this -- excuse me. Yes, we did receive a letter from the property owner -- or the representative to the east. It is in the public record. You should have a copy of it. Staff is recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report. Staff will stand for any questions Commission may have. Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions? Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Yes. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 6 of 45 Oliver: Could we go back to the original -- right there. Yeah. Watters: The original plan or the revised one? Oliver: The next one. The revised. So, right where your -- your pointer is right now, that's going to be a wall? Watters: Right there where that dark line is. Oliver: And that will be how tall? Watters: Six foot tall, 43 and a half foot long. Oliver: No shrubs, just wall? Watters: There are various plantings along there that they have proposed. The UDC does require a very dense landscape buffer adjacent to residential uses. It doesn't -- I'm not sure that it is necessarily shown here. The code requires trees to touch at maturity and a variety of trees and shrubs and plantings to create that dense buffer. Oliver: And that's mainly designed as a -- to insulate the noise? Watters: Visual and noise buffer. Uh-huh. Oliver: Thank you. Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner. Fitzgerald: Sonya, can you -- and you said that they have the right to be able shrink that buffer, but only at Council; correct? Watters: Chairman Yearsley, Commissioners, Commissioner Fitzgerald, yes. Fitzgerald: Okay. We can make the recommendation that it stay? Watters: You can certainly make any recommendation you want on this and it will be forwarded to the Council, but the Council is the decision-making body. Fitzgerald: Thank you, ma'am. Yearsley: Any other questions? Would the applicant like to come forward? Please state your name and address for the record. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 7 of 45 Huber: My name is Jeff Huber. Our address is 8385 West Emerald, Boise. I represent the applicant White-Leasure Development Company. W e are in agreement with the staff report with the exception of three items that we'd like to discuss with you tonight. Staff's done a good job of introducing the project to you and I -- so, I'd like to jump right to those conditions if we could. One condition -- 1.3.A is a requirement for a tree at the southwest corner of the parking area and we had a -- an enormous amount of piping there for our landscaping and pressurized irrigation. So, we would propose that we relocate the tree that was -- that was asked for there to a location at the northwest corner of the parking area, so we have an additional tree there to mitigate the loss of that tree at that particular location. The second condition that we'd like to discuss is the condition for the drive aisle stacking. Condition 1.3.C. There is -- do we have a -- Sonya, do you have a -- one of the overheads that show the 11 car stacking in the -- Watters: Yes. Huber: -- and the double drive-thru? This particular Sonic is a new prototype. It's unique, because it's different than all the others that are in the whole state. It's the first Sonic that has indoor seating. There is 40 seats inside. And it's the first Sonic that has a double drive-thru with stacking for 11 cars. The parking along the south side is -- is needed to bring patrons into the inside seating area. The -- there is also a door here at this location, called a hop out door where the employees are -- see that inside that the order is ready, they go out to the car and actually deliver orders to those people ahead of -- that are ready ahead of the ones that are waiting. If you have a small order, like a malt or a soda pop, order of fries, they can get that to you quickly and move you out of the line. So, that alleviates any stacking or internal conflicts that might occur from backing into this parking area. It's also one of the main entries into the building. Watters: Jeff, if you would select a color at the top of the screen. Push the button. Then you can draw on the -- Huber: I don't want to draw on it, I just want it to stop jumping around. Watters: Sorry, there is no way to lock it. Every time you touch it it's going to switch. Huber: Every time I touch the screen? Watters: Yeah. Huber: Okay. Watters: I can point for you, though. Huber: Okay. So, the hop out door is right in this location here. Also during the -- the grand opening a few weeks into the business when the -- they are experiencing a high volume of customers from a new opening, they have the employees trained to go out, if there is any stacking issues, to encourage those people to go over to the additional Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 8 of 45 parking here and order from the speaker boards. For those reasons we feel that the parking is needed and that there is not going to be internal conflicts in this particular case, because of these added features and we would request that you delete this condition. The next condition I'd like to discuss would be Condition 1.3.B, 25 foot setback requirement that staff has said that only the City Council can amend that, but you do have, I believe, the authority to interpret the intent of the setback and make comments on it. We are adjacent to the Linder Springs Apartments, which is located in a C-G zone. Have we got an overhead that shows -- Watters: I do not have an overhead that shows the whole site with the apartments. Huber: Okay. Well, their -- let me grab -- Watters: Jeff, if you have one we can put it on the overhead. Huber: There we go. Watters: If you like. Huber: What we are -- what I'm showing you here is a Sonic site -- the Sonic site is in this location right here and when these Linder Apartments were constructed in the C-G zone they have a 40 -- they have setback there of 45 feet, which is a common area -- lawn area with landscaping and a six foot fence -- wooden fence there. Then you have 35 feet of drive aisle and, then, we have the block wall that we have proposed at the request of the adjoining property owner. It's on a two foot berm also, so it's actually eight feet high. There is a ten foot minimum of landscaping in that particular area, followed by another landscape island that is nine feet wide, followed by the back of the building, which has 18 feet of landscaping in it. Together there is 37 feet of landscaping at the rear. So, I think we have met or exceeded the intent of the ordinance and would request that either the condition be eliminated or that Commission give a recommendation of approval to the City Council in this particular case. There are volume controls on all the speakers now. This is a new feature of this Sonic, which we can turn down the speakers to a level that is acceptable to everybody in the neighborhood and this -- this particular prototype has just got dark sky lighting throughout the whole thing. They call it zero lot line lighting. It's all facing down, it's all flat lens underneath the canopies. There is a security light on the rear of the building that is shielded and throws a ten foot shadow down on the ground, which is needed for security at the rear. Other than that, the -- the lighting is all contained and facing downward. Do you have any questions about the operation or the -- there is -- there is a manager here, an operations manager, from Sonic. Yearsley: Are there any questions? Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 9 of 45 Oliver: So, as far as speakers, the east station where you pull in, there is a speaker there, but it does not play music or does it? Huber: No. There is -- underneath the canopy there are speakers that play music that is facing to the west. We have eliminated two speakers of the east end of the canopies that have music and we have eliminated them at the front. There is only two speakers, one in the middle of each canopy facing to the west and those are also volume controlled. Oliver: Okay. Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald: I think that your comment about the wall and the buffer -- and the berm, I appreciate that. I think the challenge is not the landscaping intent, it's the noise and so I -- I mean having the wall there and having the buffer there equals -- 16 plus 35 plus ten doesn't get you to 300, which is the normal standard. So, I think that's what concerned me is -- at least making sure that buffer stays there and there is a wall there would probably be at least my thought. Is there any -- do you have any feedback on that? Huber: When you say the 300 -- Fitzgerald: Well, that's the conditional use; right? Because you have a -- Huber: No. The conditional use is required if it's within 300 feet. There isn't a 300 feet separation required. Wilson: No. No. I know. But that's why the conditional use is -- and that's -- is the noise not the intent of more landscaping as a noise buffer? Huber: Yes. So -- Fitzgerald: Okay. Huber: It was at the request of the adjoining property owner. Fitzgerald: And that's what I just wanted to make sure we are -- Huber: And we couldn't put it the entire length there, because of the vision triangles for cars going in and out of that drive aisle. Fitzgerald: Makes sense. Okay. Thank you. Yearsley: Any other questions? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 10 of 45 McCarvel: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: During your high peak time how many cars do you normally have in the drive- thru? Huber: That's a question for the operations manager. McCarvel: Okay. Because I have been stuck in that line back there and had cars trying to back out into me and it gets -- everybody gets frustrated. Huber: And those are with single drive-thrus. They are all single drive-thrus in the state, except for this one. This is why the -- McCarvel: I mean in other areas -- I mean other companies as well. But, yeah, those people in that parking spot -- I mean it's -- we will ask their operations manager, I guess. Huber: Well, we have dealt with the capacity of the stacking with the double drive-thru here. McCarvel: Uh-huh. Yearsley: Would the operation manager like to come forward? Huber: Sure. Yearsley: Again, please, state your name and address for the record. Harris: My name is Devon Harris. My address is 2591 West Whitestone Drive, Meridian, Idaho. 83646. Yearsley: Would you mind answering that question about the stacking? Harris: The stacking? So, physically the most I have ever seen at Meridian as far as people in an hour through the drive-thru line was 47 cars. But with the drive-thru line having two of them, you're going to have 11 cars compared that you can only have five in the single drive-thru line and also what I -- I currently work at the Nampa location off Marketplace and we have taught our car hops to actually go out to the cars in line and say it's going to be much faster if you guys want to park and since this is a drink order we will bring the order there and bring it out if they need to, but with the double drive-thru line you might still have 11 cars and, plus, there is going to be a lot more employees working there, because of the double drive-thru, that you will have more opportunities for the employees to hop orders out to them when they need that. Yearsley: Any other questions? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 11 of 45 Oliver: Can I -- Yearsley: Absolutely. Oliver: Just -- just real quick. So, there is really kind of two peak times that you're going to get that heavy traffic. Lunchtime -- Harris: And lunchtime -- yeah. Lunchtime is not even the busiest. It would be happy hour. Oliver: I was going to say it's happy hour is probably your heaviest -- Harris: Yes. Yeah. Oliver: And that's like -- that runs until, what, 3:00 or 4:00? Harris: 2:00 to 4:00. Oliver: 4:00. Yeah. So, 2:00 to 4:00. Harris: And that's when we experience -- and, like I said, the most I have ever seen at Meridian, which is -- Oliver: During that 2:00 to 4:00 period. Harris: Yes. Oliver: Thank you. Yearsley: Any other questions? Thank you. Harris: Thank you. Yearsley: I have a few people signed up. Huber: I had one more comment. Yearsley: Oh. Sorry. Huber: That's okay. They also -- there is one more feature that this Sonic has that the others don't. It's a new shake machine that speeds up the time they can make a shake and the other stores, they have to mix the ingredients. This new shake machine it's all mixed together. So, they can -- when they have a shake order, boom, it's ready to go. So, it speeds it up traumatically. Just to let you know. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 12 of 45 Yearsley: Okay. Huber: And they have got great corndogs. Yearsley: Thank you. I have a couple of people signed -- oh, no. Yeah. This one. Sorry. Jason Curry. Please state your name and address for the record. Curry: My name is Jason Curry. My address is 5080 North Dove Ridge Place. I live in the Kelly Creek Subdivision, which is immediately across the street from the Sonic Drive-in. I'm here today to state my views and my opposition for this development specifically because of safety. It has nothing to do with the company themselves. In fact, I'm a patron of the company, but I'm here to oppose my view specifically because of safety. Within the surrounding area there are a thousand plus homes within three- quarters of a mile, including the largest high school within the state of Idaho, which is growing at a very rapid rate. Between the hours of 6:30 and 8:00 a.m. my house backs up to Linder Street and it is a freeway literally and also during the time the school exits it is also busiest time of the day. In fact, this morning I pulled out of my subdivision at 7:00 a.m., there was a car accident on Linder, which is a five lane road, at the exit of where this Sonic would be used. This car was trying to cross on Dove Ridge across Linder, across a five lane road, which is not controlled by lights and as you can see on one of the pictures here, the exit crosses directly into a subdivision across Linder right there on Deer Crest. Thank you. And that is a five lane road. And today there is already a Dutch Bros, which contains a drive-thru and the amount of traffic that come in and out of there on the weekends and throughout the day is tremendous, not to mention that with a school of 1,700 plus students and it is a high school, you have new drivers, new driver's licenses, ages from between 15 and 18 years old that are going to be frequently using both the Dutch Bros exit, as well as the Sonic application. What I would propose today and what I would ask, if this has not been done, is for a traffic study to be able to account for the volume of cars that will come into and out of the exit here on Deer Crest, as well as on Linder and the exit at the Walgreens on McMillan, to understand the amount of cars and the timing of these, because the high traffic volume that we are talking about that Sonic currently has is between that, which is also the exit of the school. So, yes, 1,700 students, over 150 of them I believe are on foot traffic down Linder towards Walgreens to go to the surrounding thousand homes within that area, which, obviously, is a concern. My second concern is three of the five homeowners that are my street never received a notification for this meeting today. Myself included. I don't believe that -- I don't know if there was a problem with the mailing, but I anticipate that that is something that we should look at and I would ask for a new notification of time to go out. So, I would ask you to strongly, in closing -- I know I'm out of time, but in closing here reconsider this development based on the amount of traffic and the safety concerns itself. Thank you. Yearsley: Thank you. Oliver: Mr. Commissioner? Yearsley: Do you have a question? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 13 of 45 Oliver: Yeah, I do. For this gentleman. Yearsley: Jason, would you -- Curry: Yeah. Sorry. Yearsley: We had a question for you. Oliver: Sorry. I just -- you may know and you may not know. Is the Rocky Mountain High School an open campus where they can leave during the day to leave the campus? Curry: I believe it is. Yes. Oliver: Okay. Thank you. Curry: You're welcome. Yearsley: The next -- any other questions? Thank you. Sorry. Next on the list is Marjorie Matthes. Please state your name and address for the record. Matthes: My name is Marjorie Matthes. I live at 2299 West Kelly Creek. I am also in the Kelly Creek Division. I have spoken and have attended Mayor's Coffee get togethers and have said to the Mayor that Kelly Creek needs an advocate on the City Council regarding our ingress and egress from our tract. I agree with Jason. I'm concerned that the immediate neighbors regarding our community that are the original homeowners did not receive notice of this petition considering the close proximity to this development that we are. I agree that this is a major issue not in regards to the business that's being located there, but the impact of the traffic. I am not sure if the City Council is aware, we have had three pedestrian accidents in that area, two specifically at the corner of Deer Crest and Linder. One young lady was in a cast for over six months. This is a community that has an extremely high density of traffic during early morning, evening hours from the time that school gets out until people are coming home at night. We do not have protected ingress and egress anywhere from Kelly Creek. Leaving on Deer Crest, going out Wild Goose and on McMillan, we are surrounded by Fred Meyers. We have the high school. We have the middle school at McMillan. We have Walgreens below us. I feel that Sonic is a great company. I think it has a great development. They look like they have given great consideration for this. I think there are many other advantageous locations for them. Being located close to the school is an optimum location. You have got 1,700 drivers. You have got 1,700 kids, of which are already going in and out of the Dutch Bros every day who are now going to be drawing more kids to go to the Sonic. Kids will do this. You're inviting the most inattentive, dangerous drivers in our community to accumulate in this area when we have already had three pedestrian accidents besides the car accidents. I am a commercial driver with my husband in a Snap-On truck every day, I know when I see problems. I have taken the Smith Defensive Driving Class. Linder is not a safe road by any means of any community that you have in Meridian right now. So, I would really Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 14 of 45 request that from the safety perspective of this as to what you are committing to -- our community to, we need you to be an advocate for our community and look out for our youth in our neighborhood and people. We also have a high density of retirement people in our community who are also distracted drivers on occasion. This is not a safe business endeavor to come into our community. As Jason has told you and my sister-in-law will tell you -- she didn't sign up to talk. Her upstairs looks straight down on Linder. The amount of foot traffic -- I saw a young woman driving down Linder on a bike with her young child biking and going across on Chinden and I looked at that and I thought I don't know that I would take my child behind me on a bike on Linder. That is a very risky endeavor. So, we do really request that you support us and not approve this petition. Thank you. Yearsley: Thank you. Next is Jeff Beck. Again, name and address for the record. Beck: My name is Jeff Beck and I live at 5036 North Dove Ridge. My backyard actually has the best view of this Sonic you could ask for. Not that I'm asking for it. Those gentlemen from the Sonic corporate office -- or the local operations manager, he said that at times they had 47 cars that were piled up in their drive-thru in line. This 47 would be awesome, because we have a high school right next door to the Sonic and I think it's going to be a lot more than 47 in this drive-thru. If you look at that plan, that building is shoehorned into that -- that lot. It doesn't fit and it doesn't belong there. I think a larger site would be better, especially given the fact that if you look at where the streets come in at McMillan and Linder, there is a left turn lane. That left turn lane sweeps right across where that Sonic is going to be. You have got high school drivers driving to high school every morning that are going to be turning left right there. My little girl walks to school every day and she walks home and she's almost been hit by a car twice and she -- she goes through the crosswalk. Another neighbor of mine got hit by a car on his bike on the same street in the same area. So, if you think about in the wintertime when it gets dark you got high school drivers -- this Sonic -- the Meridian Press did an article last year in 2014, January, on bike and auto accidents and the most common bike-auto accidents that occur when people are turning out of a driveway. The room that they afforded for this Sonic to have exit and entrance, there is just no room there. You're right up against McMillan and coming in and out on Linder it's just going to be a train wreck and I'm going to just -- now, the drive-thru is going to be a double drive-thru, which to me sounds even worse, because of the fact that it widens that path and it makes it really difficult for cars to back out. These are high school kids and high school kids don't always pay attention. I'm not as worried about them hitting a car, but you're also going to have foot traffic like crazy. Now it's accommodated about 40 seats. How many of these people are going to potentially back into students. My daughter is, obviously, a student. So, my concerns are traffic noise. We have a volume control speaker. If I am a high school kid how high is that volume going to go? It's going to be jacked up. My house is right behind that and so we already have Dutch Bros and those cars wrap all the way around and I have seen those cars going all the way back to McMillan. So, I think this is the worst possible location for a Sonic and like Sonic, I'm a fan of Sonic, but to put it here -- Yearsley: Can you wrap it up? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 15 of 45 Beck: Yeah. I'm done. So -- but I just -- to me this is just safety for the city. Yearsley: Thank you. Next on the list is Connie Reeves. Reeves: Good evening. I'm Connie Reeves and I live at 5051 North Dove Ridge Place. And ditto to everything they have said, but my biggest concern is -- is, again, the traffic. I will give an example. Yesterday I was turning left into -- off of Linder into Deer Crest to go into my home. I live in a cul-de-sac. And a gentleman was coming down Linder and he wanted to go into the Walgreens on the corner and when he did he went into that -- what I call a suicide lane and he came right in at Deer Crest, which was head on into me trying to make my left-hand turn. That has happened many times. I watched it over and over and over again. Two of those children that have been hit have been hit right on the corner of Deer Crest and Linder and I have been out there both times. When lunch comes and after school and sometimes even before school, the high school kids are collecting not only at the Dutch Bros, but they are also in mass at the Walgreens. So, you know, I'm not complaining, because kids have open campus. They are a high school, they should be responsible. However, there is so much foot traffic there that my concerns are for those individuals. Not only that, but for myself. I went out to take the dog out the other day to the groomer and I sat a good ten minutes before I could even make a right-hand turn. I'm not even talking about making a left-hand turn out of my cul-de-sac, I'm talking about making a right-hand turn into the traffic. When the high school is in session it is awful out there and I know that we have growth and it's going to continue to grow, but I think we need to take some consideration about the types of buildings we are putting in there. We were here about seven years ago when you were going to put the Walgreens in and we discussed these traffic issues at that time with the City Council. I'm sure that's in the notes and at that time, you know, everybody said, oh, you know, we do traffic studies, we do all of those. I don't know if we have done one here, but I think that if you don't live in that area and you have never been in that area you might want to just come check it out. It has gotten really, really bad and I know we are continuing to grow, because everything around us is building and I understand that and I'm all for the business and I'm all for the growth, but I think we really need to take a look at the amount of driveways that are there and the amount of traffic that comes in and out of those driveways. And my other thing I would like to say, which probably doesn't have anything to do with Sonic, but I'm not understanding why, when we are going to build a huge apartment complex in that area and these buildings, that we are not, as neighbors, getting notification before everybody buys the property or does what they are going to do. Why are we not notified that those things are happening. They put in that huge apartment building there and now they are building tons of townhomes on the other side. Are we considering that traffic when we are considering putting in these massive drive-ins on that corner? I appreciate it if the city would look at that. Thanks. Yearsley: Thank you. I don't have anybody else signed up. Is there anybody else that would like to address this Commission? Please come forward. Again, state your name and address for the record. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 16 of 45 Peters: My name is Barry Peters. I'm an attorney in Eagle. The office address is 101 Eagle Glen Lane in Eagle. I believe the committee has seen the letter that I had submitted on behalf of the owners and developers of the Linder Springs project, of which I am actually one of them. Since that letter was sent to you and as -- if you have read it you have seen that our primary concerns were issues of sound and light coming across the road. In the time since we prepared and submitted that letter, we have had an ongoing discussion with the developers. There have been modifications made to their plan, both in terms of lighting to make sure that the light is -- is directed downward and not outward and especially modification of the landscaping and increasing the size of that wall at the rear of their property to -- as a buffer to the sound. With that -- with those steps that have been proposed, as long as the final product looks like what -- the design that I have been seeing this evening, we are prepared to withdraw that -- those objections. We do appreciate the quick response we have had from the developers on that. Yearsley: Thank you. Please come forward. Turnbull: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, my name is David Turnbull with Brighton Corporation. My address is 12601 West Explorer Drive in Boise. As you probably are aware we are the developer of all the Paramount Subdivision. This property was zoned in 2003, long before the high school was there, it was part -- you know, it was all part of the same application. Traffic studies were done at that time and processed through Ada County Highway District. We all recognize that there are peak hours that come with things like a high school and, you know -- you know, if -- if -- if you were to listen to some of these arguments you would probably never build a high school anywhere, because nobody would want them anywhere near them. But this is a major road, Linder Road. We, in a cooperative development agreement with ACHD, improved that to a five lane intersection a number of years ago. So, I'm not trying to minimize any traffic concerns, but I am suggesting that the traffic studies have already been processed, they have already been taken into consideration. This 18 some acres here that was zoned as C-G was always in place when those considerations were taken place. A use like Sonic is an allowed use and an anticipated use and I really appreciate the two developers that we have worked with on this getting together and working out their respective issues. I understand, you know, the concerns for the landscaping setback and so forth, but as Jeff Huber has explained, they have an abundance of landscaping, they have offered to put up a two foot berm with a six foot high wall on top of that. In addition to that we worked with the Linder Springs developer to modify their plan a month ago from a wrought iron fence to more of a privacy fence as has been explained. This building probably -- this setback between these buildings is substantial. I think -- there is 45 feet to the curb line, another 30 feet to the curb line for Sonic and, then, you have got 37 feet of accumulative landscaping before you ever get to the building. So, I think they have done a really nice job of designing this. This ups the standard for any previous Sonics we have seen in this valley. So, I hope you will do as Jeff suggested, which is interpret the intent of the code, because I think it's clearly been met. W e are fully supportive of this. Glad to hear that the two neighboring users here, Linder Springs and Sonic, were able to work through their differences as -- as Mr. Peters has just mentioned and I will stand for any questions that you have. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 17 of 45 Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions? Thank you. Anybody else? At this point we'd like to ask the applicant to come forward. Huber: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We noticed the neighborhood as per the addresses we were given to by the Planning and Zoning Commission. On March 4th we held a neighborhood meeting at Gino's Restaurant from off of McMillan Road and we posted the property in conformance with the requirements of the city with a sign ten days before this hearing. So, I'm a little in the dark why the neighbors were saying they were not notified. Do you have any further questions? Yearsley: Any other questions? Huber: Okay. All right. We would request that you delete those two conditions that I pointed out, Condition 1.3-C and 1.3-B, and that you modify conditions 1.3-A to relocate that one tree over to the north parking area. Thank you. Yearsley: Thank you. At this time I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing on CUP 15-005. Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver. Oliver: I move we close CUP 15-005. Fitzgerald: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on CUP 15-005, Sonic Drive-in. All in favor say aye. Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Yearsley: So, comments? Anyone want to go first? McCarvel: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel. McCarvel: Close enough. I'm really thinking those parking stalls should be eliminated. I just -- I think I'm in support of -- of that addition. It's -- it's just -- it's a lot there and -- I mean it doesn't take many cars to get backed up in those first couple -- it's just a problem waiting to happen, in my -- Yearsley: Okay. Anybody else? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 18 of 45 Fitzgerald: Mr. Chair? The only thing I think with -- in that regard this is a brand new setup for a Sonic with a bunch of seating inside and I think that's -- you're only leaving, I don't know, 20 spots in the -- on that west side of the building, which makes it -- it could make it difficult. I understand the concern. McCarvel: Yeah. Even just eliminating the first, you know, three there would help. I don't know what you would put there so people wouldn't pull in there, though, but -- yeah, you wouldn't have to eliminate the whole row, because it's not going to back up that far, but, like you say, you got a lot of inattentive drivers going in there, but -- Yearsley: Any other comments? Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? The one thing I would like to point out is this has been developed as a mixed use density product for ten plus years. The Brighton Corporation brought in on both corners and -- well, multiple corners when Paramount was first brought in. They did an exceptional job of laying that out. This is a commercial zone. It's going to be zoned commercial for the long term and if it's not this it's going to be something different. I appreciate what Sonic brought. I think it's a new product. I think it looks good. I think the staff's thought it out well. I don't know what to think about the parking stall issue. I do think for the wall that -- on the east side is -- is good and the berm should be there. So, I think -- I think that use makes sense for where it is on Linder. I do understand there is a traffic issue and I -- I don't think that's going to get resolved in this situation. It's a commercial zone and there is going to be something else that's going to go in here for a different use. So, I like the project as it is right now, but -- Yearsley: Thank you. Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: I'm sorry. We have already had the public testimony. Sorry. Oliver: Can I ask the staff -- Yearsley: Yes. Oliver: Could you go back to the goal -- what say -- the aerial view of the property? If I'm looking at it correct, 4850 is Walgreens? Watters: Yes. Oliver: Yes. And so that would be right behind to the north of Walgreens. Right across the street is 4853 and I believe that's a new Icon Credit Union. Is that correct? Watters: That's correct. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 19 of 45 Oliver: As well as that has two drive-ins; is that right? For that as well. So, you have already got on one side that's already been put into place for a credit union that has a drive-thru. Walgreens has a drive-thru. I -- I just don't see anything that I consider that would make me change my mind that it's going to make any difference if you add a Sonic to it. So, with the recommendation that I see from the staff I don't see any problem with it. It looks good. Yearsley: Okay. Wilson: I just wanted -- just to be clear then. So, what are -- I know kind of where you're at, then, on -- in terms of just accepting the staff recommendations, except for the parking at the south side. Fitzgerald: I'm a little concerned with eliminating those parking stalls. Wilson: Okay. Yearsley: And I would like to comment on a little bit of this, too. Per code the city -- you know, we notice kind of a 300 feet surrounding the -- the property. Unfortunately, that's not -- you know, by the time you get the roadway involved there and -- so, it's not picking up a lot of homes on the other side of the street, but that's the requirements that we have to go by is the 300 foot. So, I'm sure that's why a lot of your neighbors didn't get the noticing is because of the -- you know, the proximity of the property to the homes. Transportation issues -- ACHD has looked at this project, has -- has determined what traffic is going to incur from this and has approved this -- the project. If I'm -- from looking at the -- the staff comments and report they -- they took into account this type of facility and traffic in this area. So, I understand that traffic is bad. I live not very far from a high school as well and deal with traffic and driving my daughter to and from school every day is -- can be a challenge. So, I understand. But it's not -- where we don't maintain or own the roads, it's not under our purview to -- my opinion to reject an application based on traffic. It's got to be from ACHD's perspective and they have -- they have already approved that portion of it. With regard to the moving the tree from the south -- southwest to the northwest corner, I don't know if I have issues with that one as well. The drive aisle stacking, the property -- or the -- I guess manager of one of the Sonics, he said he had 43 cars in an hour, not at one time. So, you know, there may be some certain times that you may not want to park on those first corners, but I think over time people will know where to park and I don't know if I have issues leaving those as parking stalls. As regard to the 25 feet setback with the adjacent property owner, rescinding his objections to that, I don't know if I have an issue in not supporting that to City Council of leaving it the way that they have designed that. So, those are kind of my -- my take on this situation and I would be interested if anybody else had any other concerns or comments. With that I would entertain a motion. Fitzgerald: Looking at me? McCarvel: Mr. Chairman? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 20 of 45 Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to approve file numbers CUP 15-005 as presented in the staff report for the hearing date of April 2nd -- Yearsley: Are there any modifications? McCarvel: I think -- with the tree being allowed to move, 1.3.A, and the buffer is not ours to deal with; right? Yearsley: We can make a recommendation on the buffer, but it's not ours. McCarvel: Yeah. 1.3.D -- or is it B? Recommending that it be shortened with the City Council approval. And the 1.3-C, leaving the parking as is. Fitzgerald: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second on file number CUP 15-005, Sonic Drive-in. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Congratulations. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. E. Public Hearing: CUP 15-004 Meridian Martial Arts by Heather Neitzell Located 535 N. Locust Grove Road Request: Conditional Use Permit Approval to Operate an indoor Recreation Facility in an I-L Zoning District Yearsley: Next item on the agenda is the public hearing of CUP 15-004, Meridian Martial Arts. Let's begin with the staff report. Parsons: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission. Next item on the agenda is the Meridian Martial Arts conditional use permit. The subject site is located at 535 North Locust Grove Road. The applicant is here tonight to discuss the CUP application to operate an indoor recreation facility within an existing 4,000 square foot tenant space, which is this existing building here. The entire building itself is 16,000 square feet. But they are only requesting to operate out of 4,000 square feet of that. In looking at the surrounding developments you can see that this property is currently zoned industrial within the city and all the adjacent properties around it are zoned industrial as well. Over the recent years the city has approved some multiple indoor rec facility uses in the area. The most recent one was this back building located to the west of the site. This was approved three, four months ago, I believe. One other item I'd point out to the Commission this evening is back in 2012 this same tenant space also received CUP approval for the same use. It's just that the previous tenant did not commence the use or go through the building department and meet those requirements and get occupancy to Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 21 of 45 occupy the space and start their business and so, unfortunately, the applicant when they came and spoke to the city about this, we didn't realize that that previous one had expired and we told them they had to go back through the process again. So, this has already been approved on this site once before. Essentially, they are just coming back and asking for the same approval that was given -- granted back in 2012. Here is the approved site plan that was, again, acted on with the city in 2005. Again, when the city approved this site for the industrial uses parking standards were a little bit more minimized -- for industry zoned -- industrial zoned properties parking was a little more lax in those -- in that zoning district and because the applicant is coming forward with a more commercial type use, staff had analyzed this concept plan or this approved site plan and we are recommending that additional parking be added to the property. Those additional parking spaces are noted in the staff report that you have reviewed. A majority of the parking would happen along the west boundary here. Some additional parallel stalls along the north boundary and, then, staff has also recommended some additional parallel stalls along the east boundary. If you noted in this plan here, this plan shows an access to Locust Grove, but one was never constructed with the development of the site. The applicant's hours of operation for this property will be between 2:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m., Monday through Friday and, then, on Saturdays it will be 8:30 to 3:30. As I mentioned to you, there are other indoor rec facilities operating in the vicinity of this property, because these hours typically offset from industrial type uses and because staff has not received any complaints from other users in the area, we feel that these hours are appropriate for the use and we don't see any concerns with this use conflicting with the industrial uses in the area. And one other item, moving forward staff is going to want the applicant to submit what we call a certificate of zoning compliance, not only to establish the use within the tenant space, but also to obtain approval of the new parking plan that I just spoke to you briefly on. Staff did not receive any written testimony on this application and we are recommending approval this evening and I'd stand for any questions you have. Yearsley: Thank you. Are there any questions? Would the applicant like to come forward? Would you, please, state your name and address for the record. Neitzell: This ain't going to be near as exciting as the last one. Jim Neitzell. 13395 West Payne Street, Boise, Idaho. We are moving into this facility as a -- I think you guys have all heard the story. We are up on Franklin and what happened to our business. As far as the parking, that's the only issue. The owner does have a plan to reseal the parking lot. We would have striped it already, but he's going to reseal it once the weather gets correct to be able to put the black top down. If we striped it right now, then, the black top is not going to stick. So, once the weather gets right he's going to reseal and he's already committed that he's going to stripe it at that time. That's all I got. Yearsley: Any questions? Fitzgerald: Are you in agreement with the staff report on the parking stalls that are necessary when you stripe it? Neitzell: Yes, sir. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 22 of 45 Fitzgerald: Okay. Thank you. Yearsley: Thank you. Do you have any -- Oliver: Yeah. Just one question. You mentioned that you're -- you're located on Franklin, at Franklin and -- Neitzell: We are on Franklin between Locust Grove and Eagle. We moved in there three years ago. Our business -- we were located at first on Franklin and Linder. Oliver: Yes. Neitzell: We moved to Franklin between Locust Grove and Eagle. Our business exploded. We were doing great and, then, the Planned Parenthood opened up next door to us and we had protesters and I'm sure you have all heard the stories about protesters up there and there is nothing that could be done. We had people holding six-by-six foot signs of aborted fetuses in front of the cars of our students as they came in with young children. We spoke to the protesters and asked them not to do that and nothing worked. So, we had to move to survive. That's all we got, so -- Oliver: Thank you. Neitzell: Thank you, sir. Yearsley: Thank you. I don't have anybody signed up for this. Is there anybody out here that would like to testify? I guess if not -- we won't ask the applicant to come back and talk about what he just talked about, so at this time I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing on CUP 15-004, the Meridian Martial Arts. Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Oliver. Oliver: I move that we close the public hearing on CUP 15-004, Meridian Martial Arts. McCarvel: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Yearsley: Any comments? Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 23 of 45 Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald: I -- based on the fact that -- I mean I think Bill did a great job and it's been a use that we have approved in the past -- sorry to hear about the business situation in the past. That's brutal. But I think this makes sense and based on the fact that they are going to go through the staff recommendations I think we are good to go. Yearsley: Okay. So, I think I'm in agreement -- the same thing and I guess if we all are in agreement I would entertain a motion. Fitzgerald: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald: After considering all staff, applicant, and public testimony, I move to approve file number CUP 15-004 as presented by the staff. Oliver: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Congratulations. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Yearsley: So, next on the agenda is training and discussions from -- or presentation from Bill Nary, our legal counsel. Oliver: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Yes. Oliver: Could we take a possible five minute break before we begin? Yearsley: Absolutely. (Recess: 7:08 p.m. to 7:15 p.m.) Item 5: Other Items for Discussion: Bill Nary A. Planning Commissioner Ethics B. How to Make Good Decisions (Deliberative Process) C. Legal Procedures and Conducting Hearings Yearsley: We are ready. Let's reconvene our meeting. Thank you, Brethren -- sorry. Wrong meeting. Wrong place. Yeah. Bill for coming here today. Appreciate you giving Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 24 of 45 us a little bit of training. I did recommend that if we do have questions we are going to kind of drop the formalities and just ask the questions as we -- as we go through the presentation, so -- Nary: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. It's a privilege to be here tonight and for those that I haven't met previously, my name is Bill Nary, I'm the city attorney, and we do like to provide some training and education for our commissions periodically. I think Commissioner Yearsley has heard this -- some form of this probably two or three times in his tenure both on the parks commission, as well as here. Hopefully it's timely. Hopefully some of the questions that you might have -- please, again, it's much more interesting to have a dialogue. I don't know that any of you want hear me talk for 45 minutes or an hour uninterrupted, so it's perfectly fine to stop and ask questions. You may have a question that somebody else has as well and so that way we can have a dialogue and make sure that we are answering what concerns or issues that you may have that come up in your service on the Commission. So, what we are going to talk about tonight is meetings. We are going to talk about how meetings are done. We are going to talk about how meetings are operated and some of the things that I think come up in your -- in your positions as commissioners. I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission about 15 years ago here in the City of Meridian and so I recognize sometimes some of the things that you run into and that I ran into when I was in that role and, hopefully, maybe we can answer some of those questions you might have and, you know, come to a consensus and understanding of what the law requires. First the open meeting laws. Everything in the state is governed by the state code, everything in the city is governed by the state code or the city code. So, the first is we always start with the basics. Open meeting, the state code requires all governmental bodies have to have open public meetings. Who does that apply to? It applies to everybody. So, all governing bodies or public agencies shall be open and that includes commissions, sub committees, any groups created by the boards or a sub committee that you determine say as a commission you decide for some reason you're going to create a sub committee of your own commission members and maybe other members of the public, that's subject to the public meeting laws as well. What does that entail? Well, it sounds onerous to folks, but it's really not. What that means is you need to tell people when you're meeting and we need to keep track of what you talked about. So, there is an agenda, there is a notice, and, then, there is minutes that are maintained. They could just be recorded. We don't have to maintain verbatim minutes of every meeting. We do of certain types for certain reasons, but we are not required to maintain that for every type of meeting. But we are required to record it, so, then, if someone wants to find out later what you talk about, they have a means of which to do that. So, many times there are occasions where a board or a body may say, well, I don't want to do that and the public meeting requirements are so onerous or that's so time consuming and all that and the reality is it's not. I mean we have staff that supplies support for that, so that's what's necessary to do the business of the commission and have a sub committee for some purpose, that's perfectly fine, we just need to make sure we follow the law and make sure we follow the requirements, that the law sets out for us and these are some of the specifics. If you have regular meetings you have to have a five day notice and a 48 hour agenda notice. So, most of you know -- you see your agenda at least a couple days ahead of time that tells everybody what we are Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 25 of 45 going to talk about. So, they have an opportunity to appear. We don't amend the agenda unless there is specific reasons and we will talk about that. So, we post a notice where you have the regular meetings. It seems pretty obvious. Many times in other agencies and other bodies sometimes it's not so obvious, because they don't always meet at some place that everybody knows where it is, but here in the city it's pretty easy. Most everything is here, most -- all the meeting notices are posted here. We don't hold a lot of meetings in other places within the city for city commissions or city committees or the City Council, so everything gets posted here, that makes it pretty easy. We have in the ordinances when the meetings are held, so that helps in the noticing issue and making sure everybody knows when you're supposed to be meeting. Special meetings. So, again, there is a 24 hour meeting notice. If you're going to have a special meeting and, again, you're going to post the agenda and let people know what it is. If there is an emergency, which from the commission there is probably not a lot of planning and zoning emergencies that are going to come up that are going to require an emergency meeting, but if it were to happen, again, you can, again, try to do your best -- the requirement allows you to do the best you can to make sure people know about it. Where this really comes into play most likely is going to be at the Council level when you're having some other significant issue within our community, whether a flood, whether it's a national disaster, something like that. They may have special meetings and that's when that type of statute comes into play. Attorney General. He's my classmate, so I like to make fun of him in these things, so he, basically, says that the requirement of open meeting laws should be complied with and should not be evaded by holding smaller meetings with less than a quorum present or by having a go between contact each other -- each of the governing body members to ascertain his or her sentiment. In my business we call that a serial meeting and what we try to do very hard -- although the statutes don't speak to this specifically, it's clearly the intent of the legislature that when boards meet, commissions meet, councils meet, that the public know about it so they can go. If I have a meeting and I decided, well, the best way for us to figure out what to do is I will talk to two of the commissioners at one time, two at another, one at another time and that way there is never a quorum of the group, but I can figure out what everybody is talking about and I'm the funnel, so they will talk to me and I will tell everybody else what we talked about. That sounds great for some people, but no one is going to know what you talked about and that's the point. That actually happens and when it does you end up in the newspaper with your names splashed around that you don't know what you're doing at the minimum. So, it's something we strongly -- not only strongly avoid, we very strongly make sure we advise all of our committees and commissions that's not acceptable, that's not something that anybody should be doing, whether it's staff, whether it's the commissioners themselves -- you know, those off -- and, again, we will talk about some examples here in a minute. I'm not talking about running into somebody in the grocery store. We will talk about that. I'm not talking about an off-the-cuff after the meeting what did you think about that Sonic discussion you had tonight. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about trying to intentionally not have a meeting and gather the information from everybody to have it off of the record, so the public wouldn't necessarily have an opportunity to participate. That's what we are going to talk about. We will use some examples and maybe that will help. Again, written minutes of meetings, again, you're supposed to provide something to take minutes. You don't have a whole transcript of Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 26 of 45 every meeting, you at least have to record it. Certain things we do a transcript or our stenographer with Dean here, because in the land use arena there are requirements to have transcribable records and to make sure that there is a transcribed record of what was discussed. You have appeals from the Planning and Zoning Commission. Tonight's action that you took in your conditional use permit for a Sonic drive-in is appealable to the City Council. We need a record of that. We need it in a transcription form, so the Council can see exactly what was discussed, what was the nature of the conversation, both with the public and their testimony, as well as amongst the commissioners in making their decision and, then, they can -- if they do have an appeal they have a way to evaluate what the record was. Oliver: Could I have a question? Nary: Sure. Oliver: Are those minutes available to any of the members of the public that could see those notes as well? Nary: Those are publicly available once they are completed. You can file a public records request. We do provide them. Machelle, I don't recall if they are posted online at all. Hill: They are. Nary: Okay. So, they are online and available on our webpage as well. Many times with that we will actually direct folks to to sort of make it easier for them. They can find it. But if they don't want to do that they are not required to go look at it online. They can simply ask for it under the public records process and get a copy of it that way if they wish. Hill: We actually have them in two places. We have them on the laser fiche, like you guys look at, the searchable documents, and, then, we also have them on our website -- the Planning and Zoning Commission website. All agendas and minutes are added. Once they are approved we put them on there. Oliver: So, it's just that last minute -- the minutes we are meeting at that last meeting and, then, they disappear and go onto the next one or do they stay -- Hill: They are usually -- I think we have a good year, probably, out there. Oliver: Okay. Hill: On the website. Yeah. And in laser fiche -- I'd have to look around, but I think we kind of pull those off maybe a little bit. I'm not sure. I can't remember, but I can look. Nary: They will always be available from a public records standpoint. So, we will always be able to acquire them if somebody asks for them, even if we don't have them put on the website any longer. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 27 of 45 Hill: Right. Oliver: Okay. Nary: Social media. So, this is one of the things I think for commissioners is probably the most difficult to deal with as you initially start on the commission is ex-parte communication. So, that's receiving off-the-record information or an opinion regarding a matter that's pending and that's that list here. Informal conversations with citizens. Unsolicited e-mail or voicemail. Individual site visits. You know, individual research by commissioners -- your own, you know, interview -- if you got interviewed by the press or something like that. Social media is the most evolving area of the law we have today, as you can imagine. Social media changes constantly and the requirements around it -- the law is always fairly slow to respond to those things. So, the rules regarding it -- to be honest, many times as a lawyer we are trying to advise our clients and using our best judgment as to what's appropriate or what isn't based on what has previously been ruled on, but many times there is no case law that guides us. There is not necessarily a specific case I could point to. You know, obviously, Idaho is a fairly small state and has a fairly small amount of case law in the past. There is lots of other states -- larger states, California, Washington, the eastern states, but, still, even with social media, the law is still evolving significantly. So, is there a difference between Facebook, Twitter, a letter, an e-mail, a site visit or a guy in the grocery store? Generally no. It's not -- they are all generally the same in the sense that you're gathering -- you're getting information or getting an opinion or giving somebody thoughts on something outside the context of the meeting. So, what do you do? So, if your concerns are -- or other commissioners how do you stop them from talking to your neighbors. So, how do you deal with the guy that lives on the other side of your fence that doesn't want the Walgreens to go down the street from you? Or how do you avoid driving a specific area? You know, we live in a town that's not quite as little as it used to be, but it's not uncommon that you're going to have -- before you -- once you have reviewed your staff report tonight did most of you know where the Sonic was? Yeah. Sure. You have probably driven by there before, you know, so is that a problem? Well, let's talk about that. Okay. Oh. One other thing I want to talk about. You don't have this very often at this level in -- or of a commission, but there are -- there are means to have closed meetings and those are called executive sessions and those are allowed by state code in very limited circumstances -- about eight different areas of discussion you can have off the record. You can't make a decision in that, but it doesn’t come up much in the context of -- of the Planning and Zoning Commission. So, I wasn't going to spend a lot of time on it, unless you had a question, but there are means and times for people to have off the -- off-the-record discussions and you may see that occasionally in a news article or a news story about that. Usually when you see it it's because somebody did it wrong and because somebody had an off-the-record discussion and it was improper in how they did it and that's usually what ends up in the news. So, that hasn't happened to us since I have been here and it's not going to hopefully be us, but those things happen. But I just wanted you to know there are means in the code to have off the record meetings. But in your context it doesn't come up very often. This is from an Idaho Supreme Court case. Again, when a governing body deviates from the Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 28 of 45 public record it's, essentially, conducting a second fact gathering session without proper notice and the rule of thumb again -- try to avoid ex-parte communication about any matters that are pending a discussion at a meeting. Sometimes in -- and part of the problem with that is you don't always know, okay? You're not always sure as to whether or not this is going to be heard. Your safety net is to say, look, that might come in front of us, so I probably can't discuss that with you. If you want to, for example, you have an interest, because many of you are here because you're engaged in your community and you're engaged in your neighborhood and you have an interest in what happens in the city. That's perfectly fine and no one is asking you as a member of this commission not to be engaged civilly in what's going on. You may need to recuse yourself from that particular subject because of it. You may decide I really want to -- I want to be an advocate for this good or bad and I support my neighbors in this. Or I don't really want to -- I don't really want to be on the wrong side of dealing with the neighbors on this issue. I really don't want to cause that much friction, I just want to recuse myself. I think it's a conflict. I do have a stake in the outcome to some degree and so if that's the case just need to declare that conflict and you can recuse yourself. That's not an issue. So, before we get to the examples let's talk a little bit about running the meeting. Again, the agendas are required by law. Again, they are an open meeting requirement that an agenda be posted. An agenda may be provided -- a good faith effort is to include -- include in the original agenda all the items known to be talked about. Occasionally you may see this in front of you and occasionally you may see it at the Council level where something comes up and they ask to amend the agenda to either continue an item like you had tonight, to add an item because something has come up and we have the findings complete and they have asked us to move this up in time to get this approved. Minutes maybe got completed earlier than they anticipated and they want to add it to it. You're perfectly fine when you adopt your agenda that's one of your agenda items, that's really when you're adopting the agenda. The purpose of the notice is to give people notice. If there is something about that -- and usually either your chair or the staff or your counsel -- and Ted, of course, is normally your attorney that staffs these meetings -- were to advise you if there is a concern that there is something that -- that adding that item without notice, other than right this minute, is probably not proper. There may be people that have an interest in it versus something that's not controversial. Again, approving minutes -- if you have already made a decision and all you're approving is the staff report or the findings, again, at this juncture there is no -- there is no decision making left, you're probably going to be okay with it. But if there is something else we are going to add an item and talk about, that may be -- there might be an issue for somebody to be here for, your staff is probably going to recommend don't add that. No matter if, in fact, somebody's asked you, you still have to make a decision and the staff may recommend not doing that for that reason. Again, the agenda can be amended after it's posted. The agenda also can be amended during the meeting and what the state requires is that if you amend it during the course of the meeting that you have to state on the record why you're doing it now and, essentially, what this legislature was looking for was they felt like at some point it's got to be somewhat final and if you're going to add something now. So, this doesn't probably happen again at the commission level, but once in awhile we have had it happen at the City Council where we may have an executive session to discuss a matter, you're not allowed to make a decision there and they are going to come out of the executive session, Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 29 of 45 because they amend the agenda, add that particular item and get a vote on it and get direction as to something to do and so they will amend the agenda at that point and their reasoning is we weren't aware that we needed to until now. So, it doesn't prohibit it, it just makes sure that you're going to make the public aware of why you chose to do that. If someone has an objection there is a means in the code to address that at a later time. So, who sets the agenda? This is a discussion that happens in many many cities, both at the council level and commission level, as to who is in charge of the agenda. Department staff many times is setting the agenda for you, because it's driven by the code. When people file things it has a date in which those are going to be heard. Those are noticed, so there has already been notice, we have told everybody this is the date we are going to hear it. So, many of the agendas set by the staff by the application process that exists and those are all driven by the code. Occasionally the chair is going to have an item the chair would like to bring in front of the commission and make sure you have an opportunity to discuss it. So, the chair has that. The ultimate authority is the commission itself, because, again, there is often -- the agenda isn't -- isn't just a routine or a perfunctory item, it really is intended for you to say this is what we are wanting to talk about. If you don't want to talk about something you're not required to, unless it's driven by a statue. But ultimately you get to add something -- any commissioner can ask to add something. If the commission is willing to hear it they can do that. So, it is your responsibility and so ultimately the commission or if the City Council -- they can make the final call, but many times from a practicality standpoint you're not here everyday to be able to set some of the other things, so that's why the staff does it, that's why the chair may do it. But ultimately when you're approving the agenda that's what you're saying is this is what we are going to talk about. So, again, protocol, past practice, expediency and, again, you are the final call on that particular issue. Again, executive session, just wanted you to be aware what that is. Unless you had questions about it, we can go onto some of the other items. Can you have an open mike discussion? We have this debate often with other city attorneys and some cities do it. We here at the city strongly recommend against it for a variety of reasons, but the number one reason is open mike, which is -- what that is is some cities will come to the end of the meeting -- especially city council where people actually show up, because, sorry, not as many people show up to this just to watch what goes on as the City Council might, and they will at the end of the meeting say does anybody have anything you want to talk about? Well, the number one problem is you have no idea what anyone is going to say, which can be good or bad. Secondarily, it's not noticed. So, what do you do with it? You know, you're asking somebody to bring you something, you haven't noticed for anybody. Many many times the staff has no idea what this person has an issue with and you don't have enough information to make a decision about anything. So, you have opened the door to a person, which sounds really good from a political standpoint, but the reality is you have created this sort of false sense of -- of accomplishment, because you can't do anything with their information. The likely outcome is normally going to be, well, we will set that for a future meeting and tell you when you can come back and talk to us again, because we need more information from staff, we need to look at what the law is, we need to be advised, we don't have any way to address your concern. So, what we have done here at the city is we will direct those to either the city attorney's office, to the clerk's office, or to the Mayor's office and people can request to get on there and they explain what do you want to talk about, what is it related Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 30 of 45 to? Is it something the Council can hear? Is it something that they can make a decision on or address in some fashion? City council meetings are business meetings and commission meetings are business meetings. They are not open forum for folks to come and vent their feelings about whatever they want to talk about. That's not the point. The point is to conduct business. So, if there is no business, then, they may not get heard, because there is really nothing for them to do, unless it's related to a project or something that's going on. But that's ultimately the decision of the Mayor, the Council. Part of it may be -- may be a decision of the chair or the Council or the Commission what they are going to hear and based on whatever the staff's recommendation is, but we strongly do not encourage that type of thing, because, again, there is not much that you can do with it and it totally -- it violates your agenda issue, because you have -- you haven't told anybody what you're going to talk about. Your standing agenda items. Those are a little different. So, that's what your Consent Agenda is and a long time ago we didn't have Consent Agendas at the Council level or at the Commission level, so every single item -- every -- you don't have a large Consent Agenda very often, but every item you would vote on separately and so we found that it was more expedient to take things that are not controversial, that everybody's in agreement with, that there is no objection to, like your findings, like your minutes, and group them together and pass them in one motion. So, having that standing item -- and our Council agendas have a number of different standing items they have and I don't recall, the commission, if they have a future topics discussion, but like, for example, at the City Council, at the end of each meeting they ask the Council Members is there a topic they would like to hear at a future meeting, so that we can schedule that for a certain time. There is certain items that we may hear -- send in reports from the different commissions of the city annually they bring back a report of what they have accomplished or what they have done. So, those kinds of things are okay. It's the more random things that we have a concern with, because, again, if we don't provide proper notice to people. Fitzgerald: Bill, you can move a Consent Agenda item to the regular order of business by Robert's Rules; correct? Nary: Yes. Fitzgerald: At anytime? Nary: Yes. You can simply ask to have it moved if you want to discuss it, because, basically, what you're saying in a Consent Agenda item is you all agree. If you want to discuss it may be because you don't agree or it may be because you need some questions answered for you, then, to agree. So, that's -- it's perfectly legitimate to say I'd like to have it removed and have it for a discussion item, so that way you can, again, have consent at the end of that and, then, you will vote separately on that item alone. Again, the purpose of most of these laws that they -- philosophically when you get right down to it, both agendas and setting, the public meeting requirements and even the public records we are talking about, it's trying to make sure that government is inclusive and that we are not providing roadblocks or barriers to people that just want to participate. It other cities again we have had other issues where many times, for example, they may have a sub Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 31 of 45 committee of the council or a subcommittee of the commission that meets and discusses all these items at a meeting that isn't treated the same and given the same sort of seriousness as your commission meeting, yet all the decisions are made there and someone comes back to that commission or the council and says the committee decided X and they just do it. And, again, is that inclusive? You know, my recommendation to the city when they do that is that they should stop doing that. That's not the way the public has an opportunity to participate. You know, don't -- don't hold meetings at 3:00 in the afternoon when most people can't go. Don't try to -- you know, try to find ways that might be convenient for staff, but the public can't participate. That's not the point. They are supposed to have the opportunity to be there and we as the government I think need to make sure that we are always providing that opportunity for people to say their three minutes of what they would like to say. So, is it a meeting or not? This is really an issue that comes up a lot at the Council and we are going to talk about that and some examples here in a second. But this is my own shorthand that I always use with folks and say this is what we are doing, is this an open meeting violation or not and I usually start with is it a meeting or not a meeting. Because if it's not a meeting, then, the open meeting law don't require you to do anything. If it is a meeting it does. As basic as that sounds many times, examples we can come up with, it's not always very clear. This is, obviously, a meeting. Right? We put up a notice, we got them served, you got your name plates up there, that's a meeting, it's pretty obvious. A meeting is convening to make a decision or deliver a decision and you're getting information. Sometimes you're making a decision, sometimes you're not, but you're getting information and the purpose of that information is for you to make a decision today or at some point in the future about something, whether it's a project, whether it's a -- some type of staff application, code change, whatever it is. There is a quorum. That's also critical. You have to have half plus one of the body that's seated here. So, with our commission there is five members. Some of our commissions say plus two, certain number of members. Our parks commission has up to nine. Our arts commission has up to nine. When it says up to whatever number it is the quorum is based on how many people are currently appointed to that commission. So, if the parks commission has only seven people that are currently appointed, then, the quorum is based on seven, not nine. Yours is fixed by statute, so it's five. So, the quorum is always three. It's always half plus one of the full board. So, is there a quorum present, so are you having -- are you talking about something that's related to a decision and is there a quorum -- again, receiving, exchanging information or exchanging opinions is what we are talking about, that makes it a meeting. So, here is an example. Four commissioners meet each other at a dinner party. You talk about Boise State. I can't imagine why, I went to the University of Idaho, I don't know why you would bother to talk about Boise State, but if you were is that a meeting? Clearly it's not a meeting; right? You're just talking about stuff generally, it's a social atmosphere, it's certainly not something you're gathering for future. I don't think BSU is moving over here, I don't think they are going to be Meridian State University anytime soon, so I don't think it's probably something that's going to come in front of you. So, I think you're pretty safe. Four commissioners meet each other at a dinner party and talk about when the commission should look or take a study of the Comprehensive Plan designations within the city. Is this a meeting? Well, no, it's not a meeting, because there is no notice, there wasn't an intent to have a discussion, I would assume nobody went to the dinner party thinking, hey, I hope everybody is there so we Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 32 of 45 can talk about this. So, that wasn't intended, this was an informal gathering, and nobody's delivering any information, but should you do it? Well, I'd recommend you not do that. One, you must have better things to do at social gatherings than talk about your commission stuff. Secondarily, what will happen is that discussion still is relevant to your later discussion if you actually have a discussion at a future meeting about doing further study of the Comprehensive Plan designations in the city and you're asking staff to do that, well, it probably came out of that meeting; right? So, now you need to tell folks, by the way, we did this, but, again, that's not the decision -- that's not the reason we are making the decision today, this came up informally, now you have to tell everybody about it and now we are going to take action to do something, so is it the end of the world? No. But, again, you probably have better things to do. People are going to think you're pretty odd if you're talking about the commission at a social gathering anyway, but having to clarify that for everybody is really problematic and sometimes it's not that simple and so try not to do that, try not to even get yourself into that -- you know, if you think it's something that all of a sudden it really seems interesting, just remember, hey, let's just talk about it on Thursday when we are there and not worry about it right now. So, you're still at the same dinner party, so you guys obviously spend a lot of time together -- and you talk about requesting a consultant to provide analysis of the comp plan, some change that's going to be on the agenda. Is this a meeting? It does start to sound kind of like a meeting. Now it sounds like it's intended, that we are really trying to do something that -- we are -- we didn't think we came to a meeting -- at the dinner party to have a meeting, but we are certainly getting a lot further engaged in what we are doing and this business of what's our future discussion topic going to be and it really is the level of detail that really drives that discussion and if someone were to, then, ask our office is this an open meeting violation, the answer would probably be yes. Now, is that a problem? Well, it's not as huge a problem as it might sound and we will talk about that in a second. But the recommendation, don't talk about business if you don't have to. So, again, opposite of what we have talked about. Two commissioners see each other at a dinner party and they chat about the CUP application coming up on the agenda. So, you know this is coming and you see another commissioner at it and say, hey, did you read that staff report and what did you think of that? Is it a meeting? Well, no, because, again, there is no agenda -- or, excuse me, there is no quorum. So, that's not a meeting, but, again, what are you going to have to do? Well, when you come to the meeting now you have got to tell everybody again I was at the grocery store, I ran into Commissioner Wilson, we talked about it for ten minutes, I didn't have a decision about it, I didn't do anything, and what happens is is that people wonder, you know, of you folks have been involved in the government to a little or a lot and that's why you're here. People don't always think we have the greatest intensions no matter what we do and they just wonder what's up. Who -- you know, who talked to you, who influenced it, who -- you know, who outside of this meeting when that's really when they should have the opportunity to participate, has influenced the outcome. So, these kind of things, again, they are not violating the laws, you can cure them, but it makes people suspect on your individual integrity, your individual honesty in being here and why do that, you know. But you're here because you want to be involved, why does anybody question that, even by something as innocuous as something like this. So, there is two types of hearings and you actually do both of them. There are legislative hearings, which are matters of general concern. Most of those would Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 33 of 45 be related to ordinances. So, the Uniform Development Code that is -- drives everything that happens in planning and zoning, that's within your purview. The changes that come are -- come to you first. You hear the public's input about it first. The public input is driven by the way the ordinance is crafted, it allows the public to give you that input. It allows the public on occasion to actually prevent -- provide their own amendment to the ordinances if they want to. But those are called legislative hearings, because they are a matter of general concern. They don't involve an individual project, individual person. The application of the result applied to everybody, so the ordinance comes about that applied to everybody, not to one individual. The others are quasi-judicial and that's the area that is the most critical for the Planning and Zoning Commission. It is the quasi-judicial. Due process is required and what due process simply means -- it's a legal term that says everybody gets a fair chance to have their say. That's their day in court that everybody talks about. That's what due process is. And so now you have specific rights. Now somebody who owns property is affected, either good or bad, by what's in front of them, and they want an opportunity to tell you that. So, whether it's a Sonic that wants to move across the street, whether it's an apartment complex that wants to move there, whether it's 800 homes that wants to move on the other side of their fence, it's affecting them individually and they want an opportunity to tell you. Those are the ones that require us to have a transcribable record like we provide. Those allow hearings that require notice. We will talk about notice in a second. Those require -- those allow the opportunity to appeal, not just your decision, but they can appeal the City Council's decision that is made to a court. There is a lot of case law out there on planning and zoning issues and how those have been done and so all of that due process is afforded to those individual, because their individual rights -- their property rights in some way are impacted. So, again, legislative hearings that we talked about, agenda notice is sufficient. We don't require mailed notices, just because you're going to change the ordinance, unless the ordinance requires it specifically. Information is shared with the public, again, comments are taken. Even after passage you can change the law again. So, without even -- you can change it one week, you can repeal it or recommend to repeal it at another time. You can amend it at a certain time and Council does that occasionally. Most things legislatively can all be done and operate -- not exactly how the legislature -- the state operates, but similarly in the sense that they can be changed without necessarily going through a very elongated process to do so. Again, quasi-judicial land use is the most common one you're going to see. Due process or not having due process can be actionable in itself and we can talk about that in regards to notice. We do require verbatim minutes, so now, again, we are not talking about just either summary minutes or recorded minutes, we actually have to have a transcript. Courts don't listen to tapes. Courts want to read what was said, so all of it has to be put in writing to them. No ex-parte comments. So, then, your neighbor at the grocery store, your cousin who doesn't like that project, all if it has to be on the record. That's the key. So, the record is the thing. So, if somebody at that juncture says -- sees you in the grocery store, hey, I know you're on the Planning and Zoning Commission and I don't like that thing that's coming in across the street. Your response should be: I can't discuss it. I need you to come to the meeting. You're welcome to submit something in writing or come and tell us in person, but that's where I have to hear it. So, please, don't share anything more with me. And it's very off putting to folks and I recognize, again, for you folks that can be very difficult. For our Council members it is painful, because they Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 34 of 45 get elected by being responsive to the problem, but it's one area of the law that we have to remind them over and over again that's just something you have to do. They have to make sure the person -- you have to tell them here is your opportunity to tell us. Not here, because I'm one person. You got to tell the whole group and this is how you do it. Provide it in writing, we will definitely have it as part of the record, or you can come and talk to us in person. Again, the legislative process I don't think -- since some of you have been on the commission you haven't had any UDC amendments I don't think, but you will probably. I think we do them at least once a year where we have a list that Planning and Zoning maintains, some changes that need to come in front of you. Some are small. Some are significant. Some are just word changes and things like that. So, you will have at least one opportunity per year, maybe two, to go through that and, again, most of the times you might have a dozen changes and one of them has an issue to people that you might hear about and the other ten or 11 are not something that it was concerned with, so -- okay. So, again, on the quasi-judicial -- again, we have to follow the ordinance, we have to follow the rules, the statutes, all of that that's been done before. Again, the notice issue. We will talk about that. It's actually come up again tonight. So, first is who does it. Now, in a majority of the cases part of the fee that goes to these applications pays for the noticing to get done. So, first, someone has to do it, what is it? I think you have heard tonight there is a 300 foot requirement in the state code to send notice. I agree with what Commissioner Yearsley said tonight, that some of the folks that said they didn't get a notice may be 301 feet away. They just could be. I don't know. I don't know where they live. But there is the potential they are more than 300 feet. There is three methods of notice. So, you mail a notice to people that live within 300 feet. On occasions there is a couple areas of the law that require for us to have a further mailing, but most of them are 300 feet. So, you get a mailed notice for certain -- for certain people, you post the sign, as you have all seen them. We have changed the sign slightly over the years to, again, make them a little more visible, make it so you can see, but the intent of the sign is it's supposed to draw your attention that something is happening here and now you can pay a little bit more attention. We don't want you to read a sign this big as you're driving down the road. We want you to see there is a sign there and hopefully you will see City Council, the Planning and Zoning, you will see the date. You might see a date and time. That is what brought your attention to it. Pull over and read the sign if it's that important to you. That's the intent. We also publish it in the paper. But in this day and age and the electronic age we live in, many people don't get the paper, but that's what the state code requires. So, we do publish it in the paper. It's probably the least effective tool, but it's what's mandated by statue, so that's what we do. Fitzgerald: Bill, when is it -- when is the thousand foot requirement -- Nary: There are certain types of uses and I couldn't tell you off the top of my head if -- I don't remember if it's -- Parsons: No. For our purposes in our code it's only wireless communication facilities. Cell towers. Fitzgerald: Okay. That's right. Okay. Thanks. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 35 of 45 Nary: So -- and this is the most lawyerly answer I can give you. The law says we have to have proof that they mailed it to them. I don't have to have proof that you got it. We presume you got it, because the mail generally works and that's what the law allows. In every context that I'm aware of, unless it's -- unless you actually have to physically hand somebody a notice, which in circumstances you do -- the law presumes the mail works. So, if you mail it by certified mail with a stamp and somebody signs an affidavit saying we did that, we presume that you got it. So, if you didn't see it or you didn't get it or -- and, again, many people throw it away, many people don't think it's important. It looks like junk mail to people. Sometimes they think if it's from the government it's bad news and they just don't want to -- or they just aren't informed. But the requirement is that it gets sent. So, you will hear that occasionally. That isn't an issue for you. Because, again, all the statutory requirements have been met, the staff's already advised you that the statutory requirements are met. It's been sent, whether they got it or not that's not an issue. Secondarily, what happens if more than one of them have failed, like you have some -- I think since some of you have been here where the signs were wrong. That's critical, because our ordinance says specifically what is expected on the signs. We had one a couple months ago where the phone number was wrong and it seems kind of minor, but our ordinance says you will list the phone number of the contact place on the sign. So, if the sign is wrong we have got to repost or renotice it, because, again, we want to make sure people have had the opportunity to be there. So, the mailed one isn't as critical, if somebody says I didn't get it, because, again, I can't -- I can't presume whether or not they did. But the sign is pretty important, because, again, it's probably the most effective tool to at least draw your attention to the property to make sure that if there is something going on someone is going to notice it. So, that's the one where we get the most scrutiny on is that correct or not correct and, if you not, we better renotice it to be safe. And the reason being is if it's wrong and a court agrees with the person that it was wrong, we have to start all over again. It's a lot easier and a lot quicker and cheaper to set it over for two weeks and do it than to wait until it's four months down the road and it's been approved and they appeal it and six months from now the court says you did it wrong and now you either have damages or you have to start over, no one wants to do that. It's a lot easier to delay it a little bit if there is an error. Many many times the error, you know, is an error whether it's by the applicant or anybody, but it's one of the things to make sure people know. The other side of the coin is -- and I don't know the gentleman that was here tonight, but you will hear that occasionally, it's I didn't get notice. Now, I'm a lawyer and I usually think, well, then, how did you get here, because how did you know about it if you didn't get a notice and now you're telling us I want you to continue it, because I didn't get a notice. The purpose of the notice is so that they can come here to tell you what their issue is. If they are here, then, they can tell you what their issue is. If there is a reason -- and you have a concern sometimes that maybe they needed more opportunity, it's perfectly fine for you to ask the question, well, if I set it over for two weeks what difference would that make? I mean are you saying you need two weeks to gather more information or something else that would be relevant to what you wanted to talk about and the fact you didn't get the notice matters. Because most of the time it really isn't that. They are already here, just tell us what you're concerned with and that should be fine. But it's perfectly fine to ask them if you have a concern about that, but also, again, if they are here Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 36 of 45 they are here, we presume they have gotten it, we presume they have an opportunity to tell us what they want and, again, if any of the commission or the chair you're concerned that, again, isn't being held, because they don't have the opportunity to be heard properly because of it, you can always set it over. This is one -- lots of cities do it a little differently. I wouldn't say there is one way to do it. The statute doesn't give us specifics on how hearings are supposed to be done, but this is the way we do it here. You know, we have the staff speak first. The purpose of that is context; right? Staff isn't a party. We don't time the staff report. They are there to tell you does it comply with the ordinance or not. Does it apply with our Comprehensive Plan or not. What things about this have evolved or changed and what things that maybe either aren't compliant with this -- with the ordinances or are things that the staff would recommend, because it would improve the application and it's within your discretion on whether or not you want to grant that. Then the affected parties. So, the applicant goes next, because, obviously, they are the most affected party. It's their property. You know, whether they are the agent or the owner doesn't really matter, it's their property, it's their money, they are the affected party. So, the rest of it is really -- every city sort of does it different. They have -- and I have made a bullet down here. Some cities have people sign up as pro, con, or neutral and they will actually say we are going to hear all the pros, we are going to hear all the neutrals, hear all the cons and sometimes it could be very cumbersome even -- it's not always that clean. Many people that say I'm neutral really will get up and say they don't like it. And, then, people that think they are pro are the developer's representative, so they are all in favor of, but is that part of really the developer's presentation? Many of those that are against it might also be for it in some regard, but maybe against it in others. So, I think that's kind of cumbersome. We don't really try to do that. We don't try to effect -- because the purpose is that they are telling you. They are not rebutting each other and that was my -- I guess disagreement with other cities when they do it that way -- the rationale was if somebody comes up and speaks negatively, then, somebody else is going to come up and speak positively -- well, and I have heard that and maybe they have a different opinion -- personally, I don't care what their opinions are, they are telling you. That's the purpose. It has nothing to do with whether or not the person who is in favor of it disagrees with a person who is against it. They are telling you their opinion and, then, you decide where does it go and what happens with it. So, to me the order doesn't matter, because they are not debating each other, they are providing you with their opinion about the topic. Written correspondence should be acknowledged. Usually the staff has made comment of that in their staff report, we have received this many notices, so it's in the staff report. I think some of you may have been here a few -- I think it was last year where we got a whole bunch of written applications -- or written comments at the meeting and the chair took a break so you could read it, because there was so many negative letters that they wanted to provide and so I thought that was a good move by the chair to say, you know what, we probably should read these, instead of just -- assuming most people can read them while you're sitting there, but, then, you can't really do both. I thought that was really good. That hadn't happened before, so that was an interesting way to deal with that. The only thing that matters in the code -- and you have probably seen this since you have been here -- is the applicant gets the final say, because, again, it's their project. They are affected. So, they have the opportunity to rebut it and occasionally -- and I don't recommend you do it, but sometimes it may make sense to do it -- somebody from the Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 37 of 45 audience wants to get up again and say, wait a minute, that's not right. Now, sometimes they just disagree and sometimes they actually have a relevant reason that the person that just told you something isn't telling you the truth and they have a way to show that and it's not as easy to discern that sometimes from the chair's position, but if the decision is I'm going to let this person come up again and occasionally that does happen, make sure that the applicant still has the last opportunity to rebut that. It is their project. It is their opportunity to -- I mean they get the last word. And many times -- the Mayor does this very well -- as a council when we have that -- I want to get up now, she will say -- no matter how many of you talk he gets to say the last word and suddenly people say, okay, well, it doesn't make much sense for us to keep doing this, but all you're doing is delaying it and so it helps diffuse that and, again, once you have heard them once you're not obligated to hear them again. They get three minutes and at the -- I wouldn't say this is legal advice, but it three minutes -- if they wanted to read the recipe of their grandma's good butter bread to you, I don't care. It doesn’t matter. At some point they don't need to waste your time and I get that, but many times people get up and either tell you the same thing you have heard 15 times before or it doesn't seem to be very relevant to what you're talking about. But that's okay. That's their three minutes. In my opinion let them say their three minutes. You will spend three minutes arguing with them on why they can't tell you something, than to just let them talk to you for three minutes and within reason I don't think it matters very much. The applicant goes last. The chair does maintain it. I put a little checkmark by Robert's Rules, because most people don't read Robert's Rules and Robert's Rules was written in the 1800s and it's really really good for running the Kiwanis Club meeting. It's not necessarily for running a city council or commission meeting. But most people recognize -- and you say Robert's Rules what we are talking about and it's really decorum. It's really a way to make sure we have order. It's really a way to make sure somebody talks first, somebody talks last, so we don't get really hung up from a practical standpoint here on did we make a motion before we discussed, do we have debate before we have a motion and a second. Normally we will have a motion and a second, but here it has been our common practice for our commissioners to voice their opinion when you're concluded and closed the hearing before they make a motion, I have no issue with that. I don't think that's problematic. I think many times it's helpful for the Commissioners to hear what everyone is thinking. Again the motion at the end matters. That's what's important. But whether you make it first or make it last as Robert's Rules might determine, I don't think is important. McCarvel: I have got a question. Nary: Sure. McCarvel: I know there has been a couple of times it's like a question comes to me after we have closed the question part of everything and I'm like, okay, can I even -- can I ask the question now or is that done? I mean -- Nary: If you have closed the public hearing what you have done is you have closed the public's opportunity to provide input. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 38 of 45 McCarvel: Okay. Nary: So, you know -- but it's certainly reasonable for you to say, Mr. Chair, I had a question for the gentleman that spoke in the red shirt a few minutes ago and I neglected to ask it. I'd like to move to open the public hearing so I could hear it -- I have a question and that's -- you have to have, you know, the approval of the body to do it. McCarvel: And how about a question for staff? Nary: Questions for staff are different. McCarvel: Okay. Nary: Because, again, they are not part of the public hearing. What we are concerned with is -- we used to -- we used to leave the hearing open and so -- because there was concern that we couldn't talk to the staff if we didn't do that, but the reality is, then, you're just leaving the door open to everybody else, because, then, somebody else is, well, I want to talk now, well, then, again -- it's just probably something for the chair. But asking the staff a question about the staff report, again, there are going to be occasions I'm sure that you will run into where you have closed the public hearing and based on your conversation or discussion now you really want to hear from the guy in the back row. So, it's fine to say, you know what, can we reopen the public hearing for just this limited purpose, so as not to open the door to everybody to come up and tell you again why they don't want it, it's just to ask that person, hey, you raised the -- now I need that clarified if it's an issue. That's perfectly fine. Fitzgerald: So, Bill, in that situation typically does it -- do the affected parties come up again and close? Nary: Uh-huh. Fitzgerald: Okay. That's what I was -- I wanted to make sure that was clear. Oliver: Is there a time limit on that? Nary: It's generally the chair's call. Oliver: Okay. Nary: You know, we use three minutes for most things. We allow -- like if you're speaking on behalf of a homeowners association, it's very difficult -- I'm sure Commissioner Yearsley can tell you -- it's awfully hard sometimes to say I'm here on this HOA. Who are you speaking for. Three quarters of the people raise their hand. Okay. We will give you ten minutes. Well, one of those people, which I'm sure he can't keep track of, it's hard enough for anyone to keep track of -- so, now, wait a minute, that guy didn't talk for me, I mean I thought he was, but I wanted to bring this up. Well, I can't really prevent them Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 39 of 45 from coming up. But if they start, you know, being a chorus, certainly the chair can say, you know what, folks, I let your spokesman have ten minutes, you're all going to come up here again, I'm not going to do that again and I'm not going to give you three minutes anymore. I might give you two or one, because I have heard it and I told you that. But we haven't had anybody quite that drastic, but we usually go -- allow three and we usually allow ten and, then, again, we will limit the time on the rebuttal to make sure -- again, you have got business to do. This could go on all night if you didn't. Violation of the Open Meeting Act. As I mentioned before, there are occasions that people violate the Open Meeting Act. You might have noticed -- you may have noticed earlier in the week that the city of Grangeville outed themselves that they had been violating the Open Meeting Act. It was in the newspaper and they were voting by e-mail. Can't vote by e-mail. You have to have a meeting. That's not a meeting. You can't vote by e-mail. And so they -- they didn't just do it once they did it twice and so most of the time -- if you recognize it -- I have no idea who the city attorney is. I'm sure we will hear that at our next meeting, but either a member of the public can bring it up and you have, actually, the ability to fix it and what I would recommend is if you do it -- and hopefully it would never happen between the clerk's office, your -- the Planning and Zoning staff and my legal staff, I hope you never have a violation of the Open Meeting Law, at least in this context, because one of these people should tell you to not do that. But you should be able to and the law allows that. It allowed you to fix it so that you can do business and you can correct it and do it properly without any penalty. Now they are looking -- and I have read they were changing the law as what the penalty is. I think they have raised the penalty slightly. Not as much as was originally thought, but -- but there is a penalty, but, again, most of the time it should never happen. Grangeville is in a pickle, because some of what they did was -- no one raised it, but it was more than 14 days ago, so they can't fix it technically under the law. What should happen is what it says in the law that if you violate the Public Meeting Act, whatever you -- whatever you directed is void. So, it's like you never did it. So, we have to unravel the staff approval, we have to unravel whatever happened and that's what you have to do. Again, the board makes the determination if they violated it. The only cases in Idaho that we have on open meeting violations, they have always determined they didn't violate it and the court said they did. So, my recommendation would be fix it. Don't try to pretend like you didn't do it. I mean unless clearly you didn't do it, which won't be your guys' decision alone, we, hopefully, would be advising you, but the reality is you're better off just fixing it and not necessarily pretending you didn't do it and let the -- let the Supreme Court tell you whether you did it wrong. So, do you have any questions? Oliver: I have a question. I guess just regarding what we were just talking about and I may be way off, but -- so, let's say if that did happen and we did violate that for a particular person -- developer and he had paid to have the notice put up and -- what is it, 500 dollars or whatever it is to post it, and we violated that and we have to come back and wipe that all off and start all over again in a formal manner whereas the court and whatnot, he doesn't have to pay again to bring that back up; right? To repost it and -- Nary: Well, we don't have anything in our code or how we would address that. I certainly would -- we would try everything and if we really felt we had erred, you folks are there, we Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 40 of 45 had erred in advising you, whatever it was, I think, though, we'd do whatever we could to make sure the developer -- that the applicant wasn't harmed. Oliver: Right. Nary: Because I think that's the right thing to do, whether the statute requires that or not. You know, I mean we have certainly done that on more than one occasion, whether it's something -- we haven't ever had an open meeting violation of any kind since I have been here. But if we had anything that even -- you know, the staff gave the wrong information or we provided something incorrectly, we have corrected it, many times we have paid for it if we have had to. We haven't required them to repay or re-submit another fee or whatever it is, so we try very hard to make sure we do it right and treat people fairly, but there is guidance to that, because, again, it presumes you're not going to do it and it doesn't say what happens if -- besides unraveling whatever you decided, it doesn't say how else you have to make it right. Oliver: Okay. Yearsley: I have one question. And it wasn't quite discussed in this. Could you go over quickly when we can require something that may not be in the code? You know, in an application coming forward there is something that we really just don't like that we would like the developer to do, but we are not quite sure if we are -- have the right to ask for that. Nary: So, you have -- there are certain areas that you will have some discussion and part of the biggest one is the conditional use that was in front of you tonight. Part of the code says one of the requirements of conditional use is that it becomes compatible with the neighborhood. So, say, for example, that in this case tonight the developer I think had agreed to put in a masonry wall of some sort as a sound buffer and they didn't want -- they didn't want to do that and you will have applicants in front of you that won't want to do anything that the code doesn't say. You have discretion as the Commission to make that requirement, because, again, under the conditional use it's allowed and that's -- for example, tonight's discussion -- most of them didn't understand in the neighborhood that this is allowed. I mean this is the zone. There is no -- there is no legal method to deny that use. It's already been approved, because that's what it's zoned for. The traffic issue is totally separate and I think the chair did a good job of pointing out it's ACHD, you know, they should be talking to them about traffic measures in that area and I would agree that it is a little bit troubling there. But anything related to compatible with the neighborhood is within your discretion. Now, again, courts are going to look at what's reasonable. You know, a masonry wall that's six feet in height and goes 30 feet in length might seem fairly reasonable and you would want to make sure that you had facts in evidence on your record to explain why you made that decision. A masonry wall that's ten feet tall, that's 50 feet long, and the developer said, wait a minute, I could put in one wall that costs 600 bucks. What you're wanting me to do costs 10,000 dollars, that's not reasonable. Well, that's an argument a court could make. It's within your discretion, but you want to make sure you have some solid ground to make that -- make that decision, but it's still your call. You know, you folks don't have the final say on annexations, but they are part of your Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 41 of 45 packet that you have and it goes to the City Council. Annexation is another area where you have a tremendous about of discretion. Nothing requires the city to annex your property. We are not ever required to take you into our city. So, if within reason we ask you to do certain things, like you want to bring in a piece of property and put this type of business on it, you will see many times -- and you will see that in front of you even at this, even though it may not be your final decision, you want the driveway to be this way, you would like the building to be oriented that way, you don't want it to be quite this high. You want to have whatever our ordinance requires, but sometimes it is to make it a better project for the city, because that's in the best interest of the city. That's something the Council does have to make that decision as to what's in the best interest of the city and it may be that annexing your property -- because you don't want to do any of those things -- many times developers will agree. They'd much rather be annexed and move forward. But if they don't many times the council would say, you know, we are not ready to annex you. We are not interested in that, because we would like certain things to make this a better project or a better fit for our city and if you don't want to do it, then, we don't want to annex you. So, those two areas are ones that come to mind the most. Annexation and conditional uses where you have the discretion within reason to say, you know, hours -- you can limit the hours of operation if that would be more compatible. If the neighborhood said -- you know, we try to have a lot of things in our code, like the buffering discussion about -- and I think you raised that, Commissioner Fitzgerald, about the sound buffering. That's the whole point. Fitzgerald: Yeah. Nary: You know. But it's not -- you know, one of the things that the applicant did mention -- it's not just their sound, right, it's the cars. You can turn down the dial on the speaker box, but you can't turn down the sound in their car. That requires five feet away. You want to be five feet away from this back fence and it's noisy and you can't stop the cars from being noisy. So, that's part of the -- that's the discretion that you folks have and say I don't want to waive that or we think we need more like was raised the thing about expenses. That's a tough call. I mean that's one of those things that will make it better or not? Would having one lane be better than two? I don't know. Those are fair questions to ask like you did and is this going to block somebody in. I mean I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission when we approved Arby's. Have you ever been to Arby's here in Meridian? You have to walk through the drive-thru to go through the front door. I thought what were we thinking. We weren't looking at that, because that doesn't make any sense to me to walk through the drive-thru and it's fairly common in a lot of places, but it wasn't back then. So, it is fair to ask those questions of what makes this a good project or what makes it compatible. And, again, if it's outside of your discretion or it's excessive, staff or the attorney is going to tell you, yeah, that's probably too much. You probably can't do that. But you could fashion -- again, the items of operation are critical to some folks. Daycares are a great example. If you have a daycare within a neighborhood, many times that's what's critical to folks. They just don't want people dropping people off in the middle of the night. I mean they are stuck with this all day, but, you know, it's really intense from -- for an hour in the morning and really intense for an hour in the afternoon and during the day there is nothing. So, again, it might be, again, you're going to limit what -- well, you Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 42 of 45 can't be five or six, because of the neighbors, you know, because, again, that makes it more compatible with the neighborhood. We had the discussion -- I believe this was a CU where we had a discussion with neighbors with the W almart that was built on -- off of Overland when they came in. Very -- a lot of very unhappy neighbors and they had a normal fence they were going to build and they wanted something a little more secure. They wanted to -- because they are right butting up against a large grocery store and a large parking lot, so they have built a sort of quasi-masonry wall there to create a little bit better buffer. So, many times that's within your discretion. Just ask. And if you're not clear or you're not sure, simply ask the staff. You know, is it okay if we asked for this? If that's reasonable. Again if we are not -- between the Planning and Zoning staff and our legal staff someone will tell you if you can't do it. But most of the times you have the discretion in which to do that and the CU is the one that -- like I said, you will probably see the most that really is trying to make it fit, you know. And, again, many times we don't like it, but, you know, it isn't significant. Moving a tree. Adding some -- you know, some green space here. The Wendy's up here on -- off of Main Street has a little escape lane in it. It has, basically, an exit, because it's a really long lane. We didn't have an ordinance that required that when that was put in and I was on the commission when we asked them can you create this, because I didn't want to have 15 cars stacked in a lane and, then, somebody changes their mind, they can't get out. So, there is a little escape route out in the middle of that for that reason. It wasn't in the code, but it seemed to make sense and that seemed to be something that would make it better and so they were willing to do that. And, again, you can require things within reason to make it more compatible. Did that answer your question, sir? Yearsley: Absolutely. Nary: Okay. Other questions? Fitzgerald: Other than the signage, is there a reason for continuation that -- if we feel that we need more information from staff or -- and there is always reasonable in a motion setting -- because I feel that we need to discuss this further or does everything need to happen that night? Nary: Well -- and that's a great question, because the balance you're trying to -- to do is -- especially because most everything in front of you, other than maybe the UDC amendments, are dealing with applications of projects and time is money. Fitzgerald: Yeah. Nary: For every one of these developers time is money. I'd rather you deny me and I can appeal it and keep it moving than for you to delay it for two, three, four -- especially because you don't meet every week and you meet twice a month. At times there are -- you do need more information. What I would recommend is if you need more information that is perfectly fine, at least once, to say, look we need a traffic study back. We need more information from staff. We didn't -- fire chimed in, but I'd like the fire department to Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 43 of 45 tell us something that really is super relevant to that. What isn't reasonable, in my opinion, is we need to continue it, because I need to think about it more. Fitzgerald: No. I get that. Nary: Yeah. I mean I think you really -- the idea is you will have prepared by reading the staff report, you're going to come prepared, you have read it, you have got questions -- get your questions answered. Will there be times you can't answer the questions or the questions can't get answered, because we don't have enough information and that's reasonable. But on the other side, as you have had a few that were continued at the request of the applicant, part of it is the public. You know, we have had projects over the years and we have implemented requirements about renoticing because of where it got continued and continued and continued and we had, you know, 30 people that showed up the first time and 20 people that showed up the second time and by the fourth time that we continued it four people showed up and now I don't know that anybody's paying attention to it anymore and yet I know somebody is concerned about it. So, those are really the ones where we said, look, I know the applicant is not ready and they don't want to move forward yet or -- and that happens, too. I mean you can only do so much to force them to go forward and you could deny them or you can -- you know, you can take it up if you wish, but, you know, more than anything you want to make sure the public isn't getting cheated, that we didn't continue to the point that they lost interest in it or just couldn't keep up with it, because they have lives. And that's why sometimes you may require renoticing if you want this continued, that you're going to send it out -- and think if it shows up you have done the best you can. But that would be my only suggestion -- my only recommendation that it really isn't reasonable to say set it over just so you have more time to digest it. Yearsley: I know typically as a standard we typically -- after three continuations we ask the applicant to renotice I know a lot of times -- Nary: Yeah. And you're not obligated to continue it. Again, can't get blood from a stone and you guys want -- most times that's not always the most popular, but on occasions that is probably going to happen. But, you know, that renoticing is a legitimate request or direction from the -- from the Commission. We will continue you, but you need to do this. And, again, most times it's a fairly innocuous cost to doing that than say, okay, then we are going to take it up today and whether you're ready or not it's not my problem, let's go on with it, and, then, you know, maybe we are just going to deny it. And there are other implications on the denial. I mean, again, they could appeal it. That doesn't help them, because time is money. Appealing it, getting it remanded if the Council agrees with them just pushes it back, so many times just redoing it is not a big deal. Oliver: It seems like sometimes that if you get your packet, what, two days before or three days before the meeting, and if you're going through the packet and you have questions, you can always call staff beforehand and if you still don't get clarification, then, we go through the process, then, you can go ahead and deal as we said to get it, but a lot of times if we can expedite it, you know, just simply calling staff and getting a clarification. Meridian Planning & Zoning Commission April 2, 2015 Page 44 of 45 Nary: Absolutely. And that's -- that's what I would recommend is if you're unclear as you go through the packet, especially -- especially those of you that are new, you know, one thing I would say, the Planning and Zoning is by far the most interesting commission to be a part of, because it's really what's going on in our city. But it's not intuitive for everybody. I mean it just isn't. It is not -- you know, the parks commission is a lot of fun stuff. Right? Yearsley: Oh, absolutely. Nary: Green grass and slides and water fountains, that is cool, it's fun, but this stuff is a lot more complex and, again, like you saw here, it's not only complex, there is a lot of rules that apply to it and if you do it wrong there is ramifications for doing it wrong. Very few of our other commissions have that type of burden on them and the parks commission, they are a recommending body. If they do it wrong the Council can change it and it doesn't really matter and to be honest, there is very little they can do wrong. But here you could do it wrong. So, if you're not clear and you're not comfortable with that, my first suggestion would be to call the staff, whether it's Bill or Caleb or whoever your contact point is, call the staff and ask them -- I just don't understand this. I mean what's the issue here, you know. I don't understand why -- why are we having it, what's the hearing -- all these things that everybody is to get, but, you know, again, one of the things that you will learn is there is no cure, other than time. Many of the comments and things you may get from people that are honestly just general citizens may have zero to do with what this is about. It may have zero to do with what you can decide. Again, you're not in charge of traffic. You're not in charge of the schools. If somebody wants to complain and you have a hundred people here saying don't approve because the school is too crowded, that's not your call, you know, and at some point the chair or one of you are going to say -- they can tell you, but it's not our call. So, that's not a decision point for us. But if you're not clear ask the staff. But you will -- I can guarantee -- you don't have to be here very long, you will have a whole bunch letters on there and you will read through them and think I don't know -- I don't even know what they are talking about or this doesn't have anything to do with what I'm thinking what I'm supposed to be deciding on and you're probably right. And if you need to ask, ask the staff and they will say, yeah, that's -- you're right, there is 15 others in there about that and it isn't an issue for you. Sorry. And at some point we might, you know, advise the chair -- normally brings it up at the beginning, because otherwise you will have 50 people up here for three minutes telling you about something that you don't have a decision point on anyway and at some point -- oh, you may also have -- okay. We have heard 25 people tell us about the traffic. If you have something different, maybe now would be a good time to bring that up. We got that. We understand why that's a problem. Okay. Any other questions? Well, thank you for the opportunity and I hope it was helpful and, again, we are always available both at the Planning and Zoning staff, as well as the legal staff if you have any questions. Myself, Ted Baird, you're welcome to call us anytime. Send us an e-mail if you have questions. We are to make sure you have the right information in front of you to make a decision with. That's what we are here for and if there is something you're having struggles with we want to help. Thank you. Meridian Planning&Zoning Commission April 2,2015 Page 45 of 45 Yearsley: Thank you. So, I -- we have no more items of business, but we have one last motion to make. McCarvel: Mr. Chairman? Yearsley: Commissioner McCarvel. McCarvel: I move that we adjourn the meeting. Fitzgerald: Second. Yearsley: I have a motion and a second to adjourn. All in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Yearsley: We stand adjourned. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:25 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) - - "OVED ki 41111/ ti y I SIS ? , •� nCHAIRMAN DATE APPROVED ATTEST: Cty JAYCT E L't A', '�l�lh. "._ . ,yT fL