HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-04-02~~E IDIAN:---
CITY COUNCIL R
EGULAR
MEETING AGENDA
Tuesday, April 02, 2013 at 7:00 PM
1. Roll-Call Attendance
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
C Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
2. Pledge of Allegiance and Flag Presentation by Troop 280
3. Community Invocation by
4. Adoption of the Agenda Adopted (Pg 1-2)
5. Proclamation
A. Proclamation for National Housing Month Amended to read
"Fair Housing Month"
6. Consent Agenda Approved (Pg 2-3)
A. Approve Minutes of March 19, 2013 City Council Regular
Meeting
B. Acceptance Agreement for Display of Artwork of Tim Murphy
in Initial Point Gallery through April 26, 2013
C. Acceptance Agreement for Display of Artwork of Michael
Rusnack in Initial Point Gallery through April 26, 2013
D. Final Order for Approval: FP 13-007 Kingsbridge Subdivision
No. 3 by BHH Kingsbridge, LLC Located East of S. Eagle Road,
Midway Between E. Victory Road and E. Amity Road Request:
Final Plat Approval Consisting of 36 Single-Family Residential
Building Lots and Three (3) Common/Other Lots on 19.51
Acres of Land in an R-4 Zoning District
E. Final Order for Approval: FP 13-009 Villas @ Lochsa Falls by
Arete Investment Group, LLC Located West Side of N. Linder
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, April 02, 2013 Page 1 of 3
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
Road Midway Between Chinden Boulevard and W. McMillan
Road Request: Final Plat Approval of Two (2) Residential Lots
and Two (2) Common Lots on Approximately 0.61 Acres in an
R-8 Zoning District
F. Final Order for Approval: FP 13-010 Spurwing Grove
Subdivision No. 5 by Brighton Development, Inc. Located
North of Chinden Boulevard and West of N. Jayker Way
Request: Final Plat Approval Consisting of 16 Single-Family
Residential Building Lots and Four (4) Common Lots on
Approximately 6.47 Acres of Land in an R-8 Zoning District
7. Community Items/Presentations
A. Police Department: Swearing In of New Police Officer Joshua
Allen (Pg 4-5)
8. Items Moved From Consent Agenda None
9. Action Items
A. FP 13-011 Isola Creek Subdivision by Coleman Homes, LLC
Located East Side of N. Ten Mile Road and North of W. Ustick
Road Request: Final Plat Approval Consisting of 48 Single-
Family Residential Building Lots and 10 Common Lots on
Approximately 20.45 Acres of Land in an R-4 Zoning District
Approved (Pg 5-6)
B. Public Hearing: MDA 13-006 Waverly Place by Scott Noriyuki,
Northside Management Located North Side of E. Magic View
Drive, West of S. Wells Street Request: Amendment to the
Development Agreement for Waverly Place Subdivision to
Allow the Construction of Single-Family Attached and
Detached Homes Instead of Just Attached Homes Approved
(Pg 6-8)
C. Public Hearing: VAR 13-001 Knightsky Estates by Iron
Mountain Real Estate, Inc. Located on the Northwest Corner of
Chinden Boulevard and N. Linder Road Request: Right-
In/Right-Out Access Point to State Highway 20/26 (Chinden
Boulevard) Continued to April 16, 2013 (Pg 8)
D. Public Hearing: TEC 13-002 Bainbridge Subdivision by
Brighton Investments, LLC Located Southwest Corner of W.
Chinden Boulevard and N. Ten Mile Road Request: Two (2)
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, April 02, 2013 Page 2 of 3
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
Year Time Extension on the Preliminary Plat for Bainbridge
Subdivision in Order to Obtain the City Engineer's Signature
on a Final Plat Approved (Pg 9-10)
E. Continued Public Hearing From March 26, 2013: Ordinance
No. 13-1547: An Ordinance Amending Meridian City Code
Section 10-1-3 and 10-5-2 Adding Local Amendments to the
International Building Code, International Mechanical Code,
and International Residential Code, Prohibiting Natural Draft
Systems in Occupiable Spaces in all Residential Occupancies,
Requiring Carbon Monoxide Alarms in New and Existing
Dwellings, Establishing Requirements for Carbon Monoxide
Alarms Motion approved to move Items 9E and 9F until after
the Department Reports. (Pg 10-11) (Pg 28-44)
F. Third Reading of Ordinance No. 13-1547: An Ordinance
Amending Meridian City Code Section 10-1-3 and 10-5-2
Adding Local Amendments to the International Building Code,
International Mechanical Code, and International Residential
Code, Prohibiting Natural Draft Systems in Occupiable Spaces
in all Residential Occupancies, Requiring Carbon Monoxide
Alarms in New and Existing Dwellings, Establishing
Requirements for Carbon Monoxide Alarms Continued to
4/9/13 (Pg 10)
10. Department Reports
A. Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) Annual Action
Plan Process Report (Pg 11-13)
B. Community Development: Recommend Priority Roadway,
Intersection, Community Program and Economic Development
Projects for Ada County Highway District (ACRD)
Consideration -Submit Annual List of Priority Projects to
ACRD (Pg 13-20)
C. Continued from March 26, 2013: Clerk's Office: Proposed
Temporary Use Code Update -Large-Scale Special Events (Pg
20-28)
11. Future Meeting Topics
Adjourned at 9:16 p.m.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, April 02, 2013 Page 3 of 3
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
Meridian City Council April 2, 2013
A meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:01 p.m., Tuesday, April
2, 2013, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Charlie Rountree, David Zaremba, Keith
Bird, and Brad Hoaglun.
Others Present: Bill Nary, Jaycee Holman, Caleb Hood, Sonya Watters, Kyle Radek,
Bruce Freckleton, John Overton, Perry Palmer, Lori den Hartog and Dean Willis.
Item 1: oll-call ttendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: I will go ahead and call this meeting to order and first thank you for joining
us here this evening. For the record it is Tuesday, April 2nd. It's 7:01. We will start
tonight's meeting with roll call attendance, Madam Clerk.
Item : Pledge of Allegiance and Flag Presentation by Troop 280
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is our Pledge of Allegiance. Tonight we are going to be led in
the flag ceremony by Schaffer View LDS. Stone Crofts will be leading us in pledge and
we will just wait for their instructions.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
De Weerd: Stone, I would like to thank you for leading us and give you a City of
Meridian pin and thank you. And our City Clerk will give the rest of your troop one as
well. We always appreciate starting our meeting with a flag ceremony, so thank you to
Troop 280. We appreciate that.
Item : Community Invocation by
De Weerd: Okay. Item No. 4 is adoption of the agenda.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: I'm sorry. Is there anyone here from the ministerial fellowship to lead us in
the invocation tonight?
Item : Adoption of the Agenda
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April 2, 2013
Page 2 of 45
De Weerd: Okay. Item No. 4, then, is adoption of the agenda.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: We need to make a change in title on 5-A
Fair Housing Month. So, we will note that. And
requesting that item to continue to April 16th, 2013.
move adoption of the agenda as amended.
Rountree: Second.
That proclamation should read
also under 9-C the applicant is
So, with that, Madam Mayor, I
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as amended. All those
in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Proclamation
A. roclamation for ationl Housing onth
De Weerd: Item 5 is a proclamation for Fair Housing Month and I will read the
proclamation. Whereas April 2013 marks the 45th anniversary of the passage of the
Title 13 of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, commonly known as the Federal Fair Housing
Act and whereas the Idaho Human Rights Commission Act has prohibited discrimination
in housing since 1969 and whereas equal opportunity for all, regardless of race, color,
religion, sex, disability, family status, or national origin is the fundamental goal of our
nation, state and city and whereas the laws of this nation and our state seek to insure
such a quality of choice for all transactions involving housing and whereas equal access
to housing is an important component of this goal, as fundamental as the right to equal
education and employment and whereas only through continued cooperation,
commitment, and support of the Idahoans can barriers to fair housing be removed,
therefore, I, Tammy de Weerd, Mayor of the City of Meridian, do hereby proclaim April
2013 as Fair Housing Month in the City of Meridian and promote awareness of equal
housing opportunities. It's dated April 2nd and this is one of our requirements in
receiving grants that support many our community activities and organizations and
grants that we receive. So, we appreciate you being here to hear the proclamation on
fair housing.
Item Consent Agenda
A. Approve Minutes o arch 19, 2013 City Council Regular
eeting
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 3 of 45
B. Acceptance Agreement for Display of rtwork of Tim Murphy
in Initial Point Gallery through April 26, 2013
C. Acceptance Agreement for Display of Artwork of Michael
Rusnack in Initial Point Gallery through April 26, 2013
De Weerd: Item No. 6 is the Consent Agenda.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: There are no changes on the Consent Agenda, so I move approval of the
Consent Agenda and the Mayor to sign and Clerk to attest.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. Madam
Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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Item 7: Community Items/Presentations
A. Police Department: Swearing In of New Police Officer Joshua
Allen
De Weerd: Item 7 is a Community Presentation. I will turn it over to our chief in a
swearing in of a new officer. I will note as they are walking up that this new officer does
have a couple of relatives in our city already through the Allen family, so welcome.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, Council, thank you for giving us a few minutes to introduce our
new officer today. What I'd like to do first is swear him in and, then, say a few words.
So, if you will bear with me for just a couple of minutes and, then, if Natalie could get
some pictures. Frank has made a request, since he can't be here this evening. So,
Joshua, would you raise your right hand and repeat after me. I, Joshua Allen, do
solemnly swear or affirm that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the
constitutional laws of the state of Idaho and the law and ordinances of the City of
Meridian. That I will abide by the law enforcement code of ethics and the policies and
procedures of the Meridian Police Department. That I will obey all lawful orders and
directives of those appointed over me and I will, to the best of my ability, faithfully
discharge all of the duties of police officer in for the City of Meridian, state of Idaho, so
help me God.
(Repeated by Officer Joshua Allen.)
Lavey: Congratulations. I guess more than a few family members in the audience.
De Weerd: Do you have any remarks you would like to make?
Allen: I don't.
De Weerd: No comments? You're not like your relatives then.
Lavey: Madam Mayor, let me introduce him to the audience. Joshua Allen -- public
safety is in his blood. He does have a firefighter that's an uncle. He does have another
relative that works for the city. He came from us -- or came to us from the 911 dispatch
center. He served as a dispatcher for several years, so he was on that side of it and,
then, he finally got smart and decided to come to our side and become a police officer.
So, on Sunday he gets to go to the police academy and spend ten weeks learning how
to be a police officer. So, his wife Ashley and he live in Meridian and Joshua wants to
serve the community for which he lives. So, with that we just say congratulations to
him.
De Weerd: Well, Officer Allen, we welcome you. We appreciate your family being here
for you to support you. It is a commitment to the community and I can tell you that your
two relatives have set a precedence and for their passion and their involvement in our
community and we are sure that you will carry on that tradition with great honor. We do
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April 2, 2013
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appreciate you joining our team and our family and welcome you.
Zaremba: Welcome.
Bird: His other relatives did set the bar quite high, so not easy steps to follow.
De Weerd: Well, thank you and I will tell you you don't have to stay for the rest of the
meeting. Although we do ask that all new officers sit through at least City Council
meeting. We won't make you. Thank you for joining us.
Item 8: Items ove From Consent Agenda
De Weerd: Item No. 8, no items were moved from the Consent Agenda.
Item 9: Action Items
FP 1-011 Isola Creek Subdivision by Coleman Homes, LLC
Located st Side of . Ten Mile oa and orth of . Ustick
Road Request: Final Plat Approval Consisting of 48 Single-
Family Residential Building Lots and 10 Common Lots on
Approximately 20.45 Acres of Land in an R-4 oning District
De Weerd: So, we will move into Item 9 under Action Items. Item 9-A is final plat 13-
011. I will turn this over to staff at this time.
Watters: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. The next application --
or, excuse me, the first application before you tonight is a final plat for Isola Creek
Subdivision. This site consists of 20.45 acres of land. It's currently zoned R-4 and is
located on the east side of North Ten Mile Road, north of West Ustick Road. The final
plat consists of 48 residential lots and nine common lots. This is the first final plat
proposed for the Isola Creek Subdivision. The gross density proposed of this phase is
2.36 dwelling units per acre, with an average lot size of 11,253 square feet. All of the
proposed lots in this phase are for single family detached homes and comply with the
dimensional standards of the R-4 zoning district. Amenities proposed in this phase
include a swimming pool facility, children's play structure and covered picnic area. The
proposed final plat substantially complies with the approved preliminary plat, as the
number of building lots is the same and the amount of open space has not decreased.
Therefore, staff is recommending approval of the final plat. There are no outstanding
issues for City Council and Becky McKay, the applicant's representative, submitted
written testimony in agreement with the conditions of approval in the staff reporter. Staff
will stand for any questions Council may have.
De Weerd: Thank you, Sonya. Council, any questions? Hearing none, does the
applicant have any comment? I don't see her. Okay. Council?
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
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April 2, 2013
Page 6 of 45
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I move approval of FP 13-011 -- 13-011 and include all staff and application
comments.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-A. If there is no comment
from Council, Madam Clerk.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Item 9-B is a public hearing on MDA 13-006. I will open this public hearing
with staff comments.
Watters: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Council. The next application before you is a
development agreement modification request for Waverly Place Subdivision. This site
consists of 4.9 acres of land. It's currently zoned R-8 and is located on the north side of
East Magic View Drive, west of South Wells Street, right on the east boundary of
Woodbridge Subdivision. The applicant requests approval to amend the existing
development agreement, which currently restricts development to single family attached
townhouse dwellings to allow the flexibility to construct single family attached, as well as
detached homes within the subdivision. No additional density or reduction of common
open space is requested. A site plan showing the layout of the attached homes on each
lot and conceptual building elevations for the attached units is included in the existing
development agreement, which is shown on the screen here and it does meet the city's
design criteria. A site plan showing the buildable area for the detached units, as well as
conceptual building elevations, were submitted with this application as shown. The
applicant did submit the revised elevations shown on the right today, based on
comments by staff in the staff report. However, staff feels that they are still not
comparable in quality in regard to design and materials with those of the attached units.
Specifically a modulation of the rear of the structures, variations in profile of the roofs,
pattern variations and architectural elements to mitigate blank walls. Therefore, staff is
not recommending approval of the proposed elevations and to insure quality of design
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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and compatibility with the attached units staff recommends as a provision of the
development agreement that the detached units include the aforementioned design
specifications, as well as be required to obtain design review approval prior to issuance
of building permits. Scott Noriyuki, the applicant, submitted written testimony and he is
in agreement with the staff report. I did speak with Scott previously to the hearing
tonight and he is in agreement with staff's recommendation of the DA provision requiring
design review approval on all structures. Staff will stand for any questions Council may
have.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, any questions for staff?
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Scott. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Noriyuki: Scott Noriyuki. Northside Management, 6810 Fairhill Place, Boise, Idaho.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Noriyuki: Madam Mayor, Council, as Sonya already stated, I am in agreement with the
staff report. I am also in agreement with the additional layer of the design review. We
have currently already built two existing structures out there and sales are starting to
pick up. We have spent a lot of money out there. We have retained the quality and we
are going to continue that through with this flexibility. So, with that I stand for any
questions.
De Weerd: Thank you, Scott. Council, any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: None.
De Weerd: Okay.
Noriyuki: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone who would like to
provide testimony on this item?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Seeing none, I move that we close the public hearing on Item 9-B.
Bird: Second.
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April 2, 2013
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De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-B. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we approve Item 9-B, Waverly Place, MDA 13-006, subject to
staff comments with respect to design review and the applicant's approval.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-B. Is there any discussion
from Council? Madam Clerk, roll call.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
C. Public Hearing: VAR 13-001 Knightky Estates by Iron
Mountain Real Estate, Inc. Located on the Northwest Corner of
Chinden oulevard and . Linder Road equest: ight-
In/Right-Out Access oint to State Highway 20/26 (Chinden
Boulevard)
De Weerd: Item No. 9-C is a public hearing on VAR 13-001. I will open this public
hearing with the applicant's request to continue this to April 16th.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we continue the public hearing for VAR 13-001 to April 16th, 2013.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to continue Item 9-C to April 16th. All those
in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 9 of 45
De Weerd: Item 9-D is a public hearing on TEC 13-002. I will open this public hearing
with staff comments.
Watters: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Council. The next application before you is a
request for a time extension on a preliminary plat for Bainbridge Subdivision. This site
consists of 151 acres of land. It's currently zoned R-8 and L-O and is located off the
southwest corner of Chinden Boulevard and North Ten Mile Road. The applicant
requests approval of a fifth time extension on the preliminary plat for Bainbridge in order
to obtain the city engineer's signature on the next final plat. The subject preliminary plat
consists of 389 single family residential building lots, 22 common other lots, one church
building lot, which has already been recorded on a final plat, and one lot to be
developed and resubdivided in the future on 151.72 acres of land. The applicant has
been unable to meet the time requirements specified in UDC 11-67, therefore, a time
extension is requested. Since the last time extension request the city's standards
pertaining to installation of streetlights have changed. As a provision of the subject time
extension request staff recommends the applicant comply with the updated standards
noted in Exhibit B of the staff report upon development of the site. Written testimony
was received from Mike Wardle, the applicant's representative, in agreement with the
staff report. Staff is recommending approval of the time extension request for a two
year period to expire on March 13th, 2015. Staff will stand for any questions Council
may have.
De Weerd: Thank you. Any questions from Council?
Rountree: I have none.
Bird: I don't, Mayor.
De Weerd: Does the applicant have any comments?
hearing. Is there any member of the public who would
item? Thank you. Council.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Thank you. This is a public
like to provide testimony on this
Rountree: I move that we close the public hearing on Item 9-D.
Hoaglun: Second.
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April 2, 2013
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De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-D. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we approve Item 9-D, TEC 13-002, subject to staff's comments
with respect to time extension.
Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-D. Madam Clerk.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Item 9-E is a continued public hearing from March 26th on Ordinance No.
13-1547. I will ask Madam Clerk to read -- please read this ordinance by title only as
the third reading.
Holman: City of Meridian Ordinance No. 13-1547, an ordinance amending Meridian
City Code Section 10-1-3 and 10-5-2, adding local amendments to the International
Building Code, International Mechanical Code and the International Residential Code,
prohibiting natural draft systems in occupiable spaces in all new residential
occupancies. Requiring carbon monoxide alarms in new and existing dwellings,
establishing a requirement for carbon monoxide alarms and providing an effective date.
Continued Public Hearing From March 6, 2013: Ordinance o.
13-1547: n Ordinance Amending Meridian City Code Section
10-1-3 and 10--2 Adding Local Amendments to the
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April 2, 2013
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International Building Code, International Mechanical Code,
and International Residential Code, Prohibiting Natural Draft
Systems in Occupiable Spaces in all Residential Occupancies,
Requiring Carbon Monoxide Alarms in New and Existing
Dwellings, Establishing Requirements for Carbon Monoxide
Alarms
De Weerd: Thank you. Bruce, I will turn this over to you.
Freckleton: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of Council. I am expecting Jerry
Peterson this evening as well. He had an engagement prior this meeting and was going
to be running a little bit late. Didn't anticipate hitting these items this quickly. At this
time I'd like to request that we set this aside and come back to it once Jerry arrives.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I move we amend the agenda to address Items E and F after the items in
ten.
De Weerd: Okay.
Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion to continue these items until after the Department Reports.
All those in favor say aye. Any opposed? Okay. I didn't think I heard you. Motion does
carry.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 10: Department Reports
A. Community Development lock Grant (CD ) Annual Action
Plan Process Report
De Weerd: Item 10-A is under Department Reports for our CDBG. I will turn this over
to Lori.
Den Hartog: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. I just wanted to
provide you with an update on where we are at for the planning process for the next
program year for our Community Development Block Grant. I had a workshop on
March 8th where interested organizations came to hear about the program and to hear
about how they might be eligible to apply for these grant funds. Had good attendance
and some new faces in the crowd, so that was good. Had provided a deadline of March
21st for those organizations to submit a letter of intent to let us know what projects they
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April 2, 2013
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might be applying for and what that amount might look like. We received about ten
letters from interested parties wishing to apply for funding in the next year. Again, some
of those are activities that we have seen before, but there are some new activities. So,
look forward to the planning process as we continue until the spring and summer. So,
I'm going to give you a schedule breakdown of what's going to be happening over the
next few months. Throughout the months of April we will have our invitation for those
who are interested in applying for their eligible projects. We will have an invitation for
them to submit their full application in an RFP process. I will explain that briefly in a little
bit. The deadline to submit will be May 9 for those full applications and in mid-May we
have an internal committee that will score and rank those applications and, then, we will
come back to you May 28th with a ranking of the applications and seek your feedback
at that time for prioritization of the projects and funding allocations. And, then, June
20th we will open the public comment period. I will have a full complete draft at that
time. We will open a required 30 day public comment period on the annual action plan
and, then, July 23 we anticipate having a public hearing here before you looking for
adoption of that annual action plan and, then, submitting that to HUD for their review
after it's adopted. One thing I did want to let you know -- because of the sequestration
we have received notification from HUD to expect about a five percent decrease in our
funding for the next year, so we are planning on that. I haven't received any other
notifications about our funding allotment for the coming year. So, we will plan on a five
percent reduction and if it's more or less we will -- we will vary it that way once we --
once we know a little bit more from the department. One of the things I wanted to let
you know about last year for the first time we had a for profit company apply for funding
and that is -- they are eligible to be sub recipients through the Community Development
Block Grant program. We did -- we had never had that before. We did run into a
hiccup and we had to go through a necessary procurement process and do an RFP, so
we worked with our purchasing department to go through that. That same company is
interested in re-applying for funding this coming year, so we are making provisions to do
that early on and in the same time frame as our regular application cycle this year. So,
we won't face the delays in this coming year if we do so act on that project, again, we
won't face those same delays this year. So, wanted to make you aware of that. It's a
little bit different than what we have done in the past. I will be happy to stand for any
questions, but we are looking forward to the coming year and things are well underway
for this year. We have had projects moving right along. So, things are -- things are
moving.
De Weerd: Thank you, Lori.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Thank you, Lori, for the report. Yes, Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: Thank you. Lori, not necessarily right this minute to put you on the spot and
not necessarily only for the for profit company, but can you report to us sometime how
this year's -- how successful the recipients have been -- I don't necessarily expect you
to do it off the top of your head right this minute, but let us know what projects they
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April 2, 2013
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completed and what was successful.
Den Hartog: Happy to do that. I will provide that information to Council. And, then, I
believe the information may have gone to the Mayor's office. I haven't seen anything
from her yet, but we had a project from the previous years, all abilities playground at
Meridian Elementary School. It's completed and I believe they are planning a ribbon
cutting on April 19th at 1:00 p.m. So, I'm sure that information will be coming out.
haven't seen anything formal from the school yet, but would love to have you guys there
to see what was complete at the school. It really looks great. It's exciting.
De Weerd: And certainly I know our fire department has been intimately involved in that
as well. That's very cool. Okay. Anything further from Council?
Community evelopent: ecommend Priority oadway,
Intersection, Community rogram and conomic Development
Projects for da County Highway District (ACHD)
Consideration -Submit nnual List of Priority Projects to
ACHD
De Weerd: Okay. Item 10-B is under Community Development and I will turn this over
to Caleb.
Hood: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. I am here to present a draft
list of roadway, intersection, and pedestrian bicycle projects for submittal and
consideration of the Ada County Highway District. Beginning this year ACRD is
transitioning to a process that coordinates the calendar of their five year work plan with
their budget process and calling it the integrated five year work plan. They plan to
adopt this later this summer. Therefore, they are asking cities and other agency
stakeholders for priority projects to be considered in their programming process and
budget. New this year as well is a new economic development application. I spoke to
you about this a few weeks ago about the potential to apply for East 1st Street. We
have compiled that application and we will be submitting that as well. Tonight what I'd
like to spend our time on is discussing the draft list of projects that staff compiled in the
-- the memo for tonight's meeting. So, hopefully, you have that and can pull it up and
we can run through that here for a few minutes and, then, again, ask for your approval
of that list and the -- I will put together a form letter on top -- a cover letter on top of that
list to send over to ACRD for consideration. In preparation for tonight's meeting I did
coordinate a little bit with Public Works staff, as well as Park staff, although the level of
coordination this go around wasn't as intense as it has been in previous years. As you
may recall typically this is vetted through the Transportation Task Force who, then,
makes a recommendation to the Council. Being as though we have not yet established
our Transportation Commission for the city, I took our 2011 list, the last time we were
asked to do this by ACRD and did some -- taking to that list there weren't -- aren't any
major changes. As you can see in the couple of tables that are in the memo there were
some changes, though, so hopefully you can -- you can look at those. The second
column in shows previous years, which in this case is 2011, ranking. I wasn't planning
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April 2, 2013
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on going through that sheet by sheet. I certainly can if you would like or project by
project. I'm hoping you had a chance to review this before tonight's meeting as part of
the packet. In the future we certainly will go through our more typical formal process of
staff compiling a list of projects, vetting that through a larger appointed commission for
your consideration, but we just -- time was of the essence and we didn't have that in
place yet to follow that procedure. Most of the changes that staff is recommending can
be attributed to the most current level of service map and some other technical criteria
regarding safety and, then, also for completed projects or projects that are currently in
construction. So, that's essentially what I have done with some tweaks. There was a
project or two on Locust Grove, some on Franklin, focusing on some of those corridors
on Linder -- I think a couple projects on Linder moved up, but for the most part left our
previous list intact with removal of some of the projects that have since been completed
or are, again, currently under construction or out to bid at least going into construction. I
also mentioned the economic development application. We will submit that
concurrently. I think with that, unless you do want to go through those project by project
I would stand for any questions and any comments or suggestions, changes you might
have to those lists.
De Weerd: Council, any comments?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Caleb, what's the thought behind the staging of -- and the sequencing of the
projects on Linder? It seems to me that Linder, Franklin to Cherry, would take priority
and I understand the difficulty of telling me about the railroad signal, but I would think
you would want to do that before you got the other two sequenced from Cherry to Ustick
and --
Hood: That's a good question. Madam Mayor. Some of the thought behind that was if
you look at the -- the previous year's list -- I don't want to leach out all the other Linder
projects. I'm not quite sure how it landed where it did. It moved up quite substantially
and I thought it made some sense because of that GAP to at least have it on the same
page, so it didn't get lost in the shuffle that there is a gap -- a potential gap there right in
the heart of the Linder corridor. Certainly it could move higher. I just didn't feel taking
the liberty to have it leap frog the other Linder projects, but it does make some sense.
So, that's just my thought process and why I didn't move it any higher was to keep it
with those and I didn't want the overpass to fall down any further with some of that as
well. I think that's a critical project and keeping it in the top ten -- I realize it would still
be in the top ten even -- even moving one ahead. But, yeah, I guess I will just leave it at
that.
Rountree: I guess my point on the railroad crossing is is that hasn't yet been an issue,
that it stops traffic one car at a time on a very busy street. That's compounded by the
fact that a high school is utilizing that intersection extensively. So, from a safety
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April 2, 2013
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standpoint and a traffic capacity and movement standpoint I -- unless somebody has an
objection, I'd like to see that moved to the head of the class on Linder Road. I don't
know what the public safety group has said about that. And, again, I can understand
the issue with the railroad, why it would fall later on in the programing, because it
sometimes takes multiple years to get that scheduled with the railroad. And that part I
understand. I think the emphasis should be to try to get that done.
Hood: Madam Mayor, if I may. I would call to your attention on the -- between the
programs list of projects -- so, that's the blue series on the third page of that -- the fourth
project is the pedestrian safety project. So, certainly it's high on the community
programs. The capacity for cars, it shows high on the roadway projects, but certainly
there is a recognition there that there is a gap in that infrastructure between Franklin
and the railroad tracks, high school, with the new Pine-Linder intersection.
Rountree: Right.
Hood: That's the project there that will help pedestrians out. So, it scores well for
pedestrians, not as well for capacity, although the railroad crossing is a bottleneck there
with only allowing -- you know, stopping in only one lane of traffic in each direction. So,
just to kind of put that fully in perspective, you got duplication of efforts there somewhat,
but the community programs is only a pedestrian project, so --
De Weerd: You know, Caleb, I would agree with Councilman Rountree in its priority
and maybe it's because of the increased use right now with closure of Meridian Road,
that is a heavily traveled -- and, in fact, I can reflect back probably -- I hate to say this,
because it kind of ages me, but a decade and Don Landene, who was on the Traffic
Safety Commission -- or Transportation Task Force that was on there solely for that
section improvement and he has since passed away. I hate to think that maybe it was a
jinx on road improvement, but it probably could have been. He really got heated up
about it. It is -- it is better now that the intersection has been improved at Pine and
Linder and now that traffic is flowing with the lighted intersections at Franklin and at
Cherry. So, that's been a major improvement. I don't know with those improvements
maybe if it necessitates prioritizing that to a higher. Just my thought process. Mr.
Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor and Caleb, something different. Highway 16 -- I know they are
working on that. I see they have brought the base up to Chinden. When is that going to
be completed? Do you remember what that completion date -- I know it's a ways out
still, but I can't remember if it's 2015 or end of 2014. I don't know if anybody on the
Council remembers. I suppose I would have gone to the ITD website to look that up.
But here is my concern. When that is completed, which will be in a relatively short
period of time when you look at some of these -- CIP 2027, the Ten Mile connection to
the freeway will be the first access that those people have to connect to the interstate
system and that is the one they will be using and we have them -- they are fairly high,
four and five, Ten Mile connection. In fact, number one, Ten Mile Road, Cherry to
Ustick, number four, Ten Mile, Ustick to McMillan and number five is McMillan to
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April 2, 2013
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Chinden and also on the intersections I think that Ten Mile -- there is going to be some
work -- partial work done, but by not even being in the five year work plan, even though
they are four and five, we are going to have a much much heavier traffic load on those
from people not in this area. They are coming from out of the area to access the
interstate, so I guess we can leave it at four and five, I mean that's -- that's high, but
guess to Justin and ACRD, there are going to be complications there much sooner than
later because of that Highway 16 connection to Chinden and I think they recognize that,
so it's I guess more of a comment that we need to be trying to get ahead of that curve.
Of course they are trying to do that at all the roads and it's a game of catch up and not
enough money. But that is one I think we are going to see some problems if we don't
try to get that moving sooner as opposed to later.
De Weerd: Well -- and if I might just give an editorial remark, we certainly told ITD that
quite some time ago and repeated it very often that to make a road improvement from
State to Chinden and not give anyplace for those cars to go once they cross the river
was not good planning.
Hoaglun: You're being kind, Madam Mayor.
De Weerd: I tried.
Hoaglun: And -- but, you're right, and, then, that falls to the city residents, it falls to
ACRD now to fix that to some degree and when we don't have that -- that ability to
direct those -- those plans out there, so I guess Justin, Caleb, it's just my comments on
an area, actually, that's going to have a problem down the road.
De Weerd: And we just saw it as an opportunity for a toll booth. That's how you pay for
it, right, Justin? ACHD's idea I'm sure. Any other comments from Council?
Rountree: No.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, not necessarily on this subject, but I just wanted people to
notice that Caleb has accepted the position as manager of our planning division. If
people don't know that already. Congratulations.
Hood: Thank you.
De Weerd: Yes.
Zaremba: Already doing an excellent job.
De Weerd: Stepped in as interim and it's great to have him officially in place.
Hood: Thank you.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 17 of 45
De Weerd: Okay. Further comments, Caleb?
Hood: Just maybe a couple things. I didn't hear any clear direction on the Linder Road
project, if that's moving up or not, and if it is give me a number and everything else can
fall behind. The other thing to Councilman Hoaglun's question, I did find the news
release when the bid came in for that project and it looks like that section of 20-26 to 44
should be done in late summer 2014. So, that's what the timeline is, at least in this
news release from a couple months ago. Yeah. March 6th. So, just last month,
actually, so -- and, then, I would just like to -- Ryan Lancaster volunteered. He was
hoping to serve on the Transportation Commission and that -- we weren't quite
formulated in April. He still was kind enough to go through this list and provide some
comments and input on this as well. So, I do appreciate his help in reviewing and
commenting on some of these and to that end -- I failed to mention this in my staff
report. Project number 13 on the community programs projects request I would request
that we remove that. Ryan actually drove out there to that section and informed me that
there is now sidewalk on both sides of that portion of Meridian Road.
Bird: You're right.
Hood: So, we don't need this project. I know Brighton Corporation had, in fact, already
completed that work, so we can remove that project from our list. So, I'm sorry that I
failed to mention that previously, but that would be the one change I would recommend
and if we are going to do something with Linder. But other than that if we can get
direction to approve this list and I will get it -- by the end of the week we need to get it
over to ACHD. I will get -- try to get the Mayor's signature on a letter and --
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor and Caleb, I can support their request by Councilman
Rountree that from a safety standpoint of -- you're close the high school and we have
completed some sidewalk projects, but nothing in that direction and that is one I could
see moving to the front of the Linder line.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Priority number six, the Locust Grove segment from Fairview to Ustick, I
thought we had some discussion at one point in time that that would be one of those
corridors that would remain three lanes. And I may be mistaken, but I still would think
that you could move that Linder Road project from ten to six and move the six priority
down to ten.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, that would work for me.
Hood: If I can, there was a question in there, too. I got the -- yeah. So, we did engage
with ACHD here a couple months ago. I talked to them about Locust Grove, McMillan,
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April 2, 2013
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and Meridian Road, because Meridian, north of Ustick, currently is in the CIP for three
lanes up to Chinden. So, we have asked them to look at kind of all those to see if
ultimately five lanes ever makes sense or maybe three. Maybe we contain three. This
section of Locust Grove currently is in the five year work plan for five lanes, but it may
function and may work better today just because of the existing residences you have
there and their landscaping to keep it at three, because it's pretty tight. If you widen that
to five lanes, then, you're right at people's backyards. But the traffic signs are heavy
there. We did discuss about it being a bicycle friendly corridor and keeping it at three,
but those discussions are ongoing. The current CIP is still adopted, but we are talking
with ACHD a little bit about, again, McMillan, Locust Grove, Meridian -- Victory I think
was the other one that we mentioned about. Just this whole idea of let's assume five
lanes, unless otherwise and those are the ones that -- some of them we are potentially
going to have an ultimate build out of three and most of the other ones will be five. But
we wanted to -- and I don't know if Justin has anything he would like to add to that, but I
met with Gary Insulman, Justin, and I think Amar within the past couple months
anyways on that topic, but they are going to do some more research on that, look at the
network and see what impacts there are to some of those corridors and right of way
impacts, those types of things, and come back with their analysis here later on this year,
hopefully.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: That is a touchy subject with me, as people know, making arterials anything
less than five lane -- I have done transportation systems in a lot of cities around the
country and the ones that work best have arterials on the half mile. We do not have
arterials on the half mile. We have only preserved them on the mile and that makes
transportation systems difficult to begin with. It puts a lot of pressure on those one mile
arterials. If anything happens on an adjacent arterial, if a truck turns over or who knows
what, that shuts down an adjacent arterial, people already have to go a mile out of their
way to get to the next arterial or the next way through. Meridian, with the exception of
portions of Pine Street and maybe one mile of Chateau, don't have places that you can
get around, except on the arterials and I know that most of the planning is done on a 20
year time horizon. That is not a very long time horizon and even if the 20 year view
justifies them doing three lane, our full build out and not having any availability of half
mile arterials, makes me very firm that five has got to be the minimum on all of our
arterials. I can accept the argument about Victory Lane, what we had last week or the
week before. I'm not thrilled about it, but we can't keep chipping away at that. That's
my personal opinion. Again, I would convey that to ACHD as well.
Hood: And, Madam Mayor, if I may, we won't make any decisions in a vacuum. We will
certainly bring that back. I just asked ACRD to do the analysis. You're right, they don't
-- they don't. have an ultimate build out horizon. They only look 20 years out. But even
within that 20 year horizon we would like to consider multiple things in that. We have
subdivisions today in this particular mile, project six, Locust Grove, Fairview to Ustick.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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That's pretty much built out. So, what are the implications there? Do you want to
encourage bicycle friendly corridors? Does Locust Grove make sense as one of those?
We are asking the questions right now. There isn't any policy decisions being made
tonight on this list. Hopefully we can figure that out sooner than later as we start to
loose opportunities to widen these to five. Maybe some of them are seven lane is
appropriate. But that is the idea is that what's the ultimate configuration, because we
don't want to do this again in -- we thought it was five and now it's seven or we thought
it was seven and now it's nine and it keeps -- we want to have the networks ultimately at
least preserve the right of way necessary for that network, so we don't have to go in
there and impact more than necessary adjacent property. So, again, we are not -- that's
not tonight's discussion, but I will bring that back and it's considered -- these projects
here are what currently is on the books at ACRD and we have engaged them about
potentially changing that, but before they take action we will bring it back to you for a
recommendation to them, so --
De Weerd: Okay. Caleb, I guess so -- to summarize this, we have recommended
moving ten -- switching it with six. So, moving ten to the six spot and six down to the
ten spot. I believe that Franklin Road, Black Cat to Ten Mile -- because it is an alternate
route if I-84 is closed, that that is a priority from a transportation system standpoint and
certainly I know that stretch has some blind access points that have caused some
concern from a safety perspective. I don't know if Council would like to move that. It
looks like there is some priority from ACHD's perspective, because of the alternate -- or
it's an emergency route for the I-84 corridor.
Hood: And if I may just add one other point to that one. I didn't put another asterisk on
there, but that is a federal aid project. It is a reliever to I-84, but that is federal aid
money. So, it certainly can move up. It's already in the process. Your top ten projects
typically are the ones that get bonus points, if you will. So, our top ten are the ones that
ACHD really considers as the highest priority. So, there could be some -- something to
be said for that. Again, I was concerned that -- that if it's the top ten having Linder Road
overpass fall out of that. I don't disagree that Franklin is a high priority corridor, but that
project's moving forward without those bonus points. There is already a recognition that
that project should happen and the state is participating in that. So, again, you can
certainly move it up if you like. I just wanted to let you know that is a federal aid project.
De Weerd: Okay. I'm good where it is. Council, any other comments?
Rountree: I have none.
Bird: I have none.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I don't think we commented on removal of the sidewalk project. That sounds
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 20 of 45
reasonable.
Hood: Thank you.
De Weerd: It does sound reasonable, since it's completed. Thank you for your work on
this, Caleb. It's been stellar.
C. Continued from March 26, 2013: Clerk's Office: Proposed
Temporary Use Code Update -Large-Scale Special Events
De Weerd: Okay. Item 10-C is continued from March 26th, a report by the clerk's
office.
Holman: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Sorry, my voice kind of comes and
goes a little bit. If you recall last year the clerk's office came before you and updated
our fee schedule. At that time we discussed a little bit of the special events code and
how we were looking at large scale special events and we were waiting to kind of get
through the first really busy season or Kleiner Park being open before we came back
with some recommendations. At this point Kleiner Park has been online for almost one
year and the city has hosted two large scale special events at that venue to include
Northwest Ribfest and Barley Brothers Traveling Beer Show. Several departments
were involved with facilitating these large events. The clerk's office, Parks and
Recreation, police, fire, community development and legal. As city staff we learned a lot
from these experiences. We got a better handle on what is needed to provide good
customer service to event organizers, to assist those organizers in insuring that the
event runs and make sure that they are safe for event attendees. We worked closely
with the organizers before, during and after the events and we now have a good idea of
what resources are needed to make these events successful for the organizers, the
public and the city. With these lessons learned and in anticipation that Meridian attracts
and is a great place for special events, we have prepared a draft amendment to the
city's special events code that establishes some additional requirements for large scale
special events, specifically the proposed code updates will, number one, help
organizers and staff identify large scale special events. If you will see in the draft
ordinance that is in your packets, at the top of page two under C it lists -- there is four
factors that we have come up with in there and, basically, special events will be
classified as a large scale special event when three or more of the following factors
apply and you can read those. They are -- it's anticipated that 3,000 or more persons
will attend the event. Extra duty police officers are required to staff the event in order to
adequately protect public safety as determined in the discretion of the chief of police or
his designee. Alcoholic beverages will be served or sold at the event and structural or
electrical permits are required. They would need to meet three or more of those
following factors to qualify for this large scale special events status. We would require
organizers of large scale special events to apply for temporary use permits 60 days in
advance, rather than only 30 days. These big events we have found take just a lot
more time to prepare for. Require organizers to meet with city staff to address the
issues affecting public health, safety, or convenience. Require organizers to enter into
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 21 of 45
a written agreement with the city or city services or property or being used to put on the
event. And require that large scale event organizers obtain insurance of greater limits,
so they have a one million dollar limit, as opposed to the regular special event that's
500,000. The major lesson that we learned in working with the organizers of these
events was that city staff needs more time to assess the public safety and staffing
needs in order prepare for these large scale events. These events typically involve
huge crowds, alcohol service and high temperatures, large volumes of traffic, logistics,
such as waste removal and traffic control, making sure there are enough toilets, drinking
water, and first-aid stations, structural and electrical permitting and inspection and
whatever else is needed to make sure the event is safe, clean and well managed. All of
this takes a lot of time, particularly the first time that an event is held. For these reasons
staff is proposing that the deadline for submission of a permit for a large scale event
would be moved to 60 days out and that Council institute a requirement that the
organizer meet with staff at least 14 days prior to that to discuss how these concerns
will be addressed. We would like an opportunity to sit down with them a couple of
weeks before that 60 day deadline to really hash out and have everybody at the table
almost like what planning does with their pre-application meetings, that way they have
everyone at the table that they can ask questions of, we can help guide them through
the process, so when they want to submit their application it's complete and we can
accept it. We have also learned the need to reserve or receive payment for these
additional services up front. We have been successful in negotiating agreements with
organizers, establishing terms and conditions for special events that are held in the city
park. This proposed ordinance would formalize this process and provide notice to
organizers that a written agreement will be required. I would say that last year after our
major event one of them was a downtown cruise. We actually had an after action
meeting with some of the event organizers to let them know what we thought went well
and what we felt could be improved on for next year if they plan on coming back. They
also were able to provide feedback about what worked for them, what might have made
it go smoother. It's really been a good collaboration between all of our departments and
we are just looking at formalizing it and making it be able -- you know, some more time
up front and get everybody at the table to make sure it's a successful event. And with
that I will stand for any questions and I will add that Lieutenant Overton is here tonight
also. Perry Palmer is also here and they have been on this committee, too, discussing
these large scale events.
De Weerd: Thank you, Jaycee. Any questions from Council?
Rountree: I have none.
Bird: I have none. I think it's very good.
Rountree: I think we need to move it forward.
Bird: I think so, too.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
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April 2, 2013
Page 22 of 45
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I will throw a wrench into this. No. I do have a question, Jaycee. A person
looks at this, a large scale special event, they go, well, let's see, I'm not going to have
3,000, I'm only going to have a thousand attend, alcoholic beverage, yeah, I'm going to
do that. And, yeah, we will probably need an electric permit. How do they know if
number two is going to be met? I mean they might go, well, let's just -- you know, we
are only going to have a thousand people and an electrical permit and alcoholic
beverages. Is alcohol one of the determining factors? I mean they -- a person might
think they don't need extra police officers, yet the police department may say they will,
but they may self-categorize themselves to say, well, obviously, don't meet three of
those if they discount the police. The others are quantifiable. Three thousand, alcohol,
permits. Number two isn't quantifiable. They are going to have to come in to see if that
is number three on the list. How -- and, yet, some might kick themselves out, because
they think, well, we don't need extra police, because I'm sure everyone thinks they don't
need extra police. But they might. So, how do we tell them that, yeah, you need to
come in and check this out, before you really kick yourself out.
Holman: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Councilman Hoaglun, normally the
event organizers will contact our -- Nancy Radford in our licensing division. Nancy
flushes out a lot of these questions as -- with her first contact with them. She will give
them an application. That really to me is something that she would advise them that we
would have to confer with our police department on that and I think it really will be at our
purview to decide whether we think we need additional services there or not. Either
way they are going to be applying for a special event. It's really -- we are going to
determine whether it's large scale or not.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Holman: And I -- Lieutenant Overton can certainly answer any -- add anything that he
would like to also.
Hoaglun: Well, that gave me comfort, Jaycee. I think that -- chief, do you have
anything more to add to that?
Overton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Councilman Hoaglun, I kind of
looked at these as the minimum standards and for a lot of second and third year and
ongoing events we are going to have already established that need for public safety.
It's really only for the first time events that it's going to be an unknown. When we want
60 days to meet with these folks for these large scale events, what we are really hoping
for is three to six months. But we needed to set a bar somewhere, so we have a
minimum that we could live with and still get this done. So, I think the city clerk has put
it very well, when we get these applications in the first thing she usually does is sends
them directly over to me, so we can flush it out and if we have any questions about what
that event is or what they are going to need, we call the applicant immediately.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 23 of 45
Hoaglun: Okay. Great. Thank you very much.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Well, I do think there should be something in there that says unless
determined otherwise -- and the reason I put that is right now the Parks Department is
considering a new event that has three nights of live music and have recently learned
who some of that live music might be from. That is a train wreck waiting to happen and
if they just fulfill one of those and just state 3,000 and 10,000 show up for it, it's a large
scale event, depending on what that music venue is. So, if -- it says where it meets
three or more of the following factors and where this might just meet one of the factors,
there needs to be some -- something that says unless otherwise determined, so it gives
you that latitude that it falls under less than three.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I guess we could do a couple of things.
I mean I think some of what -- I think we are trying to be as -- flexible to what -- what
you're talking about and what may be -- we could use some description, because I think
what Council Member Hoaglun has raised is fair, that if a member of the public doesn't
ask us and all they do is read this ordinance and they perceive that they don't -- we tend
to get -- people either grossly underestimate how .many people are going to come or
grossly overestimate how many people are going to come. And so -- but we could
certainly say in the extra police -- the areas where we see the extra police is things like
you just identified, Madam Mayor, life music, street closures, those are the type of
things where you have to corral people in a different area or keep them out of certain
areas, so we could use examples so that they understand what are we talking about.
It's going to have a street closure we certainly want to know about that and we are going
to want to know it ahead. We could set the threshold a tiny bit lower as well, too. I
mean it would seem to me on a majority of events we would want to know about it, even
if they had -- their estimate is even a thousand people. Because, again, we just want
them to tell us ahead of time is really what we are looking for. You know, I think when
we have discussed this in the past what we said is if they are very very organized with
this -- of the Hotrod Nights last summer, they were very organized, they had actually
done that event elsewhere a number of years, so they were very organized. So, the 60
day issue -- limit was probably not as critical for that, but it -- as I think Lieutenant
Overton hit it right on the head, it is a minimum standard, because what we find is many
of these groups aren't very organized and they don't have an idea of how many people
it's going to bring, what the logistics are, and so we are trying to get them in earlier. So,
if that would help -- if you think in putting some examples again, including, but not
limited to type of examples, it may be setting the threshold for the -- the automatic at
5,000 maybe is too high. Maybe alower -- lower it to 2,500 or 3,000 or even 2,000, but
you have to come and tell us ahead of time might be more appropriate. We can
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certainly work with any of those things. I think the group has tried to identify really
where the buttons get pushed for us is those types of alcohol and, again, we could
include live music as another reason, something like that. Again, the type of live music
may vary, but usually most live music isn't string quartets. We are talking about other
types of music.
De Weerd: Lieutenant?
Overton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, you noticed my hand signals. I
wanted to talk again. We had our last meeting -- and I didn't see that it was changed.
We had actually discussed with Colin in Parks specifically that we were talking about
dropping to 3,000 to 2,500 on that standard and also doing afollow-up standard -- and
the city clerk can answer this question for me -- I thought it was modified that we would
have a single stand-alone for parks at any event that we believe would be over 5,000 all
by itself. None of the other things had to apply. That way if they had any event coming
into the park they were concerned that it wouldn't meet all those other standards, but
they wanted to have that same special event, large scale, kick in.
Holman: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I -- that conversation went around
quite a bit at that table and, then, Perry Palmer suggested some stuff that then changed
everything we had talked about, so I can't say for certain -- was that at the end of the
conversation that we had? Do you remember that?
De Weerd: Leave that to the fire department to change something.
Palmer: Always.
De Weerd: Chief.
Palmer: Yes. Thank you. Madam Mayor, Members of the Council and City Clerk. So,
the meeting prior to the last one was where we talked about bringing to focus back to
the large scale events and not necessarily trying to overcrowd the issue with the smaller
events that we currently handle well with the process that's already in place and in trying
to address the park's concern of -- that they could have significant issues without all of
the criteria being met, I concur with the lieutenant that we talked about lowering the
amount with accompanying requirements or conditions to 2,500, but that there would be
a stand-alone threshold of 5,000 that it didn't matter whether any of the other elements
where involved, if it was going to be 5,000 or more it would automatically qualify for a
large scale event, because now we are bringing into play crowd control, traffic issues,
emergency exiting and access for public safety, sanitation concerns and those type of
things, so --
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
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Zaremba: I would like to speak in support of those levels. Perhaps what we are talking
about is we have small, medium, and large events. I like the range 2,500 to 5,000 for
what would be a semi-large event or a medium event. I would add to that if we get to a
5,000 level and we are talking about that group -- Perry mentioned a couple of these,
but I think when we get to that size we need a real plan from them on several subjects
and I would say they need to provide us with a security plan, a sanitation plan, afirst-aid
plan, a parking, perhaps shuttle bus plan, alcohol containment plan -- it looks like Bruce
has another one to suggest.
Freckleton: I was just going to suggest evacuation.
Zaremba: Evacuation plan. That sounds good. And, really, require them to supply a
plan that -- that would meet the needs. If -- if nothing goes wrong and if something does
go wrong -- I mean you don't need anything to go wrong to need a sanitation and clean-
up plan. First-aid, because we are talking about mostly summer activities, there needs
to be a lot of a water and people available to deal with heat stroke or whatever else
might happen. Small cuts. I just -- I would ask that -- which we have a three tier plan
like that, but the over 5,000 one has some very serious requirements about what they
need to think through and supply to us.
Holman: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Madam Clerk.
Holman: That's the track we were going down to start with as a group is coming up with
a tiered system and, then, trying to come up with all the different determining factors for
the different tiers. We were trying to kind of move away from getting people -- or having
to try to put themselves into the lower -- when you have a three tiered system and
having the size or the number of attendees doing a cut off, you will -- our fear is that
people would be trying to calculate, okay, I think we are about this much. So, Chief
Palmer is actually the one who kind of came up with a different idea, which the group
seemed to go with and we agreed that we thought it was an easier way to go about it
and that this system -- this whole large scale special events, it's -- our large scale
special events aren't going to recede. I think we are just going to continue to have more
and more and more and that this plan will be something that will evolve probably as we
go along. We have made it through one season so far with these large scale special
events and we wanted to wait and see if going to a tiered system like that might be
something in the future that we work towards as we get more events in Kleiner Park.
And I don't know if Chief Palmer or Lieutenant Overton have anything else to add to
that, but I thought that was kind of the way the discussion went.
Palmer: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Jaycee's exactly right. We already
have the temporary use permits that come through Acella and the smaller events the
time frame is adequate, everybody gets a bite at the apple and to share their concerns.
Certainly with the large scale events that we had last year there were lessons to be
learned by all of us and so we tried to carry those forward to be proactive with this year
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and, again, just making the logical assumption that it's two last year that we are going to
see those numbers in frequencies increase and trying to provide enough time so that
we can address all the concerns of Councilman Zaremba, as well as just being
customer friendly for the people that want to come in and do these events that they are
not being hit with something at the last minute that now they have to scramble to try to
meet the standard. They know well in advance, as well as we know well in advance the
things that we have to plan for to try to make it as good an event and as safe an event
as we can possibly make it.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: One last thing, too. I mean you have to remember the only difference here is all
of them require a permit. We are talking about the large one requiring a 60 day notice
and everybody else is a 30 day notice. So, they all require some notice to us and so we
-- at least our history right now is it's hard to sneak up on us too much, because they
have to call the park to see if they have the space to use it. There is not a lot of other
venues that they can do a large scale event that isn't in a park. So, we are going to
catch a majority of these, but we wanted to make sure we had adequate time to deal
with the very new or not very well organized group. Just so that you're -- you may recall
it or -- but we haven't talked about it, but they all need a permit anyway, it's just when --
when do we have to know about it, so that we have opportunity to provide the level of
input and I think Lieutenant Overton's right, I mean the earlier the better and we found
the most success with groups that do bring it to us a lot earlier than even 60 days,
because they know it takes a lot of logistics to make these happen properly and safely.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I -- just from some experience again in other cities, large scale events
sometimes have to be in touch with a city nine months to a year ahead of their event.
Sixty days is pretty short and -- and the issue there is whether you're dealing with a
professional organizer or amateur fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants organizers who think
this may be a fun thing to do once. The professional organizers know what's expected.
They have probably done it in other cities, done it other years, and they know there is a
whole list of things they have to cover. The amateurs a lot this is a surprise to. They
think they can just put up a sign and have 6,000 people come and they will make a few
bucks off of them and have fun and training them takes a lot of time and effort. So, I
wouldn't have any problem even extending the time that the large groups need to notify
us, because the professional groups will notify us early anyhow and the amateurs need
to have enough time for us to help them.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
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De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: One other point, too, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, is we can always
say no. I mean if they aren't very well organized. And part of the contracting process
we are going to be looking at is getting some assurance up front of payment. You
know, we don't want to expend city services on the hope and prayer that 5,000 people
show up and, then, there is 500 and they can't cover their costs, because we would
have already expended the service. So, those are the things that, hopefully, will guard
against what exactly you have raised, Council Member Zaremba, the person who isn't
organized, doesn't really know what they are doing, hasn't done anything like this
before. They won't be able to likely get insurance for that, they won't likely have the
funds up front to the pay for those things and we potentially have the ability to say, no,
that they are not organized. So, we are hoping all those safeguards -- try and be
flexible. We may be coming back next year saying, yeah, now we really actually need
90 days or more, because the events are getting bigger and more complex. But we are
hopeful that we are starting at least at a spot where we can still be flexible to the needs
of the city, but yet provide some opportunity for people in the community.
Holman: Madam Mayor? What we are really looking at -- that 60 day deadline is a
completed application, in which a lot of that information will be in that application. The
site plan, the safety plan, all of that information and we assigned them to vet that
application through all the parties and provide feedback to -- to the applicant. Normally
-- I mean like we will possibly know more than 60 days ahead of time that they are going
to have the event, but that gives us time to meet with them, talk about all of this and,
then, get the completed application the 60 days out. And we had already discussed that
if this evolves next year that we might invite you, Councilman Zaremba, to be part of our
committee because of your expertise in this area. So, I think it's just going to continue
to be an evolving process that we would like a little bit more data, a little bit more -- a
few more events and more -- another season to go through and, then, possibly come
back and refine it a little bit more.
De Weerd: Okay. Any other questions from Council? So, I believe they are looking for
direction.
Holman: Madam Mayor? What we would like to do is come back next week with an
ordinance for a first reading at that time and possibly the next week the second and
third reading and make it effective the following Monday after that.
De Weerd: And, Madam Clerk, I guess when it is set for first reading if .-- if there are
any changes that you do get it out to those who have made reservations and done
events in the past just for their consideration and let them know when it is up in front of
City Council.
Holman: Thank you. We will.
De Weerd: Okay. Council, any -- oops. Sorry. I'm playing. Any comments that -- any
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comments to be included in what will be in front of you for first readings?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: As I said when we started I'm okay to move this forward, but I would add the
comment that's been made both directions about the 5,000 being a separate criteria that
if it's that, then, it doesn't have to meeting anything else. We considered it a large event
-- large scale event and, then, bring the rest as it is.
De Weerd: Okay. Very good. So, to get it set for a first reading next week?
Holman: Yes.
Hoaglun: And, Madam Mayor, your comment about would there be a public --
opportunity for public to comment at those readings?
De Weerd: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thanks.
De Weerd: Okay. We did move Items 9-E and F to be considered at this point, so I will
turn that over to Bruce.
Freckleton: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. And I thank you for
delaying this topic. Jerry Peterson has joined us now and I also wanted to just tell
everybody that's waited for this topic to come up I appreciate their patience. Madam
Mayor --
De Weerd: And we are much earlier than we were the last time.
Freckleton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I wanted to just kind of give you a
briefing on the concerns with the ordinance during the development over the last four
months. You should have in your packet a copy of -- the executed copy of the letter
from the Building Contractors Association of Southwest Idaho. I believe that came in
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earlier this week or -- the bulk majority of the concerns that have been raised have been
with regard to retros and remodels. The provision of the code that -- that I asked last
week to be removed from -- from consideration for this ordinance going forward, but the
concerns that were raised with those sections were potential cost of replacements could
inadvertently get folks to the point where they would not seek permit, they would
basically do these underground-type conversions and not have permits or inspections
and that sort of thing. Definitely a concern of ours. We want to make sure that things
are done properly when they are done. Also the cost of replacements could be very
hard on people to hand -- could be hard for people to handle. Again, if you will
remember our ordinance required that if you were doing any permitable work inside the
space you had to -- the latest version was that you would have to have those appliances
tested. If they proved to be back drafting -- not operating properly, then, you would
have to -- you would have to make some changes. You would either have to do work to
make sure that they did draft properly. You would have to either -- you could also
replace them with models, such as direct vent appliances or you could construct what's
referred to as a combustion closet and keep your natural gas appliances. But there also
was an option where they could bring in fresh air to those. These are all things that
could hit somebody blind side, you know, when they are essentially just doing an
electrical outlet in their kitchen and, then, all of a sudden they are faced with several
thousand dollars' worth of conversion. So, it's definitely a concern. The last real big
topic was potential liability. The contractors that we have spoken with raised a concern
that in the event they had done a replacement of systems in a home and because of our
ordinance they have to go back in and those systems are tested and prove out to be not
working properly, it -- they felt that it kind of put them in a situation where that
homeowner could come back on them and say, you know, you need to fix this, you put it
in and you need fix it. I know we had some discussion with regard to if the city would
have any liability in that situation and I believe Mr. Nary addressed that. I think it was in
our second reading. If this had been a case where the city had gone in and done --
done inspection on those installations to begin with, whether we would also be in a
liability situation. So, there were just several things dealing with the retro remodels that
we did not feel real comfortable with it continuing to move forward. We needed some
additional time to set up administrative procedures to -- to be able to handle that
program and so all of that led to my request last week of withdrawing that provision from
the ordinance and so in your packets tonight you should have a copy of the ordinance
with the red lined version showing that item being removed. You should also have a
version in your packets that's completely clean, you know, without that item in it. So,
the other topic that we had a little bit of discussion on was with regard to new
construction. Now, this is a provision that we -- we did leave in the ordinance. Late --
late yesterday afternoon I did receive an a-mail from the president of the Idaho Building
Contractors Association Steve Martinez and Steve -- I will just kind of paraphrase what
their concern is with regard to the new construction and it is that they fear that if the City
of Meridian adopts this code as written that the state will adopt something similar. So,
that's -- that's the concern. My response back to -- to Steve was, you know, first and
foremost my concern is for the lives and safety of Meridian city residents. In my
communications with Jerry Peterson with the state he is keenly aware of the concerns
statewide as he's traveled the state and talked with different folks and he will be
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addressing -- he will be addressing that with any proposal he might have going forward
at the state level. But, again, my concern is right here at the City of Meridian. The --
the one thing to keep in mind, too, is that our ordinance will only affect approximately
one percent of the installations of furnaces and water heaters. Approximately one
percent. That's the amount of furnaces and water heaters that we see installed inside
the conditioned space. The other 99 percent of installations are typically in the garage.
So, we are talking about a very small percentage of appliances here. We didn't receive
any negative comments or concerns with regard to the requirements for the CO
detectors. Everybody is very supportive of that requirement and, you know, we are
carrying that one forward as well. So, Jerry is here if you have any questions of him,
but with that I will stand for any questions and ask for your approval tonight of this
ordinance.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, questions?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Just an observation, I guess, about my house. My units are in my garage,
but I noticed that the floor of my garage is like six inches below the rest of the floor of
my house and I think I have been in other people's houses where that's similar. Is that
a requirement or something in Meridian to -- since we do have those units in the garage
and the gas that we are worried about tends to be floor hugging, is that -- is that a
required safety feature that my garage is a little bit lower than the house or did that just
happen because the builder did it?
Freckleton: You know, typically, I mean every house that I have owned the garage --
the garage floor sits lower than the finished floor of the house as well. Typically the
furnace and water heater are going to sit on a platform in the garage. I don't know if
yours does or not.
Zaremba: Yeah.
Freckleton: Yeah. But maybe Jerry could address if there is a -- he's our technical
expert, since he is our -- our contractor that we -- that we have hired to do our plan
review and inspection services for Meridian, so --
Zaremba: It doesn't really weigh heavily on this ordinance, but I just noticed it and I'm
curious.
Peterson: Madam Mayor, City Council. Jerry Peterson. The garage floor has more to
do with the water drainage away from the house and just for general information natural
gas is lighter than the air. Propane is heavier than air. So, natural gas tends to rise,
propane will settle.
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Zaremba: Okay.
De Weerd: There is your chemistry or --
Zaremba: Yeah. Thank you.
De Weerd: While we have him up here any questions?
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor. Jerry -- sorry. Real quick. We talked about within a
conditioned space, which is an enclosed space; is that correct?
Peterson: Yes, sir.
Hoaglun: Okay. And an enclosed space, I mean does that mean a garage, as opposed
to a -- a garage or a closet is a conditioned space? How do I know what difference that
-- that got enough room?
Peterson: Madam Mayor, Councilmen, they -- what we are trying to define is whether
this appliance is in the living space -- in the occupied living. There are provisions in the
existing code that deal with concealed -- or within enclosed spaces for getting the
proper combustion air opening and stuff into that, so that's -- that's already provided in
there. What we are trying to do is separate that appliance. It can be in the closet if that
closet is sealed from the rest of the space and so I hope that answers your question.
Hoaglun: Okay. It does. Yes. Thank you.
De Weerd: Any other questions? Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor. I don't know whether you can predict this or not, but I
wouldn't have a problem if the state instituted a rule similar to what we are -- I don't feel
we can wait in Meridian for the state to do it. We have already had an example that
turned out unfortunately and while we want to get it right, I don't have a problem with
Meridian taking the lead. We have on many other ordinances as well. But I'm just
curious of whether you have a sense of whether the state would move forward with
something similar or if there is no comments about that.
Peterson: Madam Mayor and Councilmen, the -- there is an HVAC code collaborative
set up for April 11th. The next HVAC board meeting is May 28th. The effort of that
collaborative is to define concerns and we have -- and make amendments to the
proposed code or any other Idaho statutes and rules. This is the method that the state
works through in developing our policies. So, it will be addressed at that meeting. It
could also be addressed at the HVAC board and it could also be presented to the
legislature as a stand-alone item. So, we have several options for addressing it.
Obviously we strongly encourage the industry support and we are trying to be sensitive
to -- we have diverse climates in Idaho and it is something that is affected by different
climate zones and construction types and so I'm very aware of what I'm -- the
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challenges that are -- trying to do something on a state-wide level.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor? I don't know if you can speak for all of the DEQ even, but it
would seem to me -- I know we are going to work through -- the provision that we are
removing from this ordinance at the moment and that will continue to be discussed -- to
me the goal of that one is to have people who have -- may have no idea that their --
things are inside their living space and perhaps not performing the way they should
perform. I just wondered if you have any clue what would be the ability of DEQ to put
together a public service announcement so that instead of this being a push from us to
contractors and people saying you have to do this, that people that look around their
living space and say, gee, I didn't know this could be potential danger, I had better call
somebody to come look at it, make it a pull instead of a push. Is there any way to get a
public service announcement and just notify the public, you know, this is something you
should think about and look around your house and see if you're in this category?
Peterson: Madam Mayor and Councilmen, the -- I spent a couple hours last week
within the internal management of the Division of Building Safety, DBS, and that was
something that they have asked me to put together regardless of what eventually
happens with -- we need to have something that when we find these situations we can
get to the homeowner or the building owner and say, you know, this is what's going on,
this is what we have determined and here are potential solutions to the problem. But it
would need to be addressed and so they want to know what the next -- what an
anticipated timeline would be and those things and so as we work through this -- the
part that Bruce has asked to be removed, all of that would be part of that consideration
and hopefully we could develop that in a fairly short period of time.
Zaremba: Thank you.
De Weerd: And I know we have been talking about this for a while and I don't know if it
-- if this question is for you, Jerry, or Bruce or maybe even Perry, but I did hear through
various news outlets that the hearing was announced about this particular change to our
code and there were several public members that were interviewed that were supportive
of the change. I just kind of wonder what -- what level -- what is the level of concern?
We know we had a tragedy. We don't know how many calls our fire department has
gone out -- gone out to that have had this and it's been a health issue or it's gone to the
emergency room. What -- what is the issue? How widespread is this and how
frequently does it occur and is this -- what is the seriousness of this item? So, I guess I
will ask you first and, then, I will ask Perry and Bruce.
Peterson: Madam Mayor, Councilmen, I was asked to assist at the Sage Crest and so I
tested -- I did various tests on that particular unit and, then, I also had an opportunity to
test other units and we found that the -- there is an obvious correlation between the
designs and exactly what we are trying to eliminate in new construction and so on my
way home I drive past three other apartment complexes and I can tell by looking at
them from the outside that they have the same characteristics. I couldn't -- I can't give
you an exact number of how many of these exist, but I do know that nationally it's
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becoming -- there is an increased awareness -- we are finding more and more of it and
it's -- it's something that -- as somebody that is trying to provide some directions for the
state, which I'm tasked with, it's something that needs to be addressed. The issue -- I --
excuse me. If I could back up just a second. If the appliances are functioning and
everything is fine, you could actually have a back drafting appliance back drafting in
your home on a continual basis without doing -- without significant health risk. There is
still some long term exposure risk. So, we don't know whether we have low -- we don't
know to what degree we have low level combustion release -- or carbon monoxide
releases into the home. What we were finding with the first responders is when it
actually trips an alarm or makes somebody physically sick and, then, they go to test.
The part of the problem is is that the cure, up until the last year, has been to open the
windows. Go outside. And now we know that that's -- that's not good advice. We now
tell people, please, just close the door, make sure there is no people in there and leave
it, so that we can test and see what's going on inside and we try to investigate any
potential sources. So, there is an increased awareness with first responders and within
the inspection community that this is something we need to take a closer look at and
also understanding that we have -- we may have a significant problem with the existing
housing stock.
De Weerd: Perry?
Palmer: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. So, statistically across the United
States there is on average about 170 fatalities from carbon monoxide exposure
annually. Approximately half of those are in the residence, but it -- the conditions vary
quite a bit. Obviously when we had the cold snap, that three week period, month,
whatever that was, excluding Sage Crest, we were averaging three to five calls per
week. Most of those were in single family residence. I don't believe that any of them --
again, excluding Sage Crest, were in any apartment complexes. Certainly I think John
-- these other gentlemen will probably concur that as we see the new construction and
the tighter buildings, we have the potential of seeing that more than less. But it's really
dependent -- I was reading some articles today, you know, internal combustion engines,
people cleaning their garages with power washers that have internal combustion
engines and being overcome by the fumes in an open door garage, but it's still a
confined area. People working on ships and just -- you know, it just -- I think there is
real lack of awareness out there and, again, because it's colorless, odorless, tasteless,
the effects can overcome people and they don't even know what's going on before it's
too late, so -- but in answer back to your question, it's weather dependent mostly if it's
from appliances and it's usually the real cold weather, but when we get it we are
generally going out three to five times a week.
De Weerd: And compared to your other calls is that a high number of incidents each
week?
Palmer: In relationship to -- is it a higher than normal carbon monoxide response?
Yeah. Certainly the cold weather influences that, because everything is closed up tight,
so we see the effects of the carbon monoxide being contained. Now, I can't really tell
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you exactly without diving into the numbers whether those are all founded. In other
words, when the -- when the crews arrive they are finding dangerous levels of carbon
monoxide or whether it's a faulty detector, whether there is other reasons for the
concern, whether it's a pilot light that went out or just what the nature of that is. But on
the average during the cold portion of the winter we typically see about three to five
responses a week.
De Weerd: Thank you. You answered my other question. Bruce, do you have anything
you want to add?
Freckleton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I -- you know, through this four
month period that we have been working on this I -- there was an article that I ran
across a couple weeks ago and this was published by the National Fire Protection
Association. This -- this article is the non-fire carbon monoxide incidence, an abstract.
It says that during the 2006 through 2010 municipal fire departments responded to an
average of 72 -- excuse me -- 72,000 carbon monoxide incidents excluding incidents
where nothing was found or fire was present. These incidents were more common
during the winter months and in residential properties. Carbon monoxide calls to fire
departments are more common during the early evening hours. So, you know, I have
spoke about that it's not just a Meridian issue or an Idaho issue, it is a national issue
and that's what this article refers to. Also during some of our meetings I know we have
several representatives from Intermountain Gas here tonight. They threw out a statistic
that, you know, we know the number of calls that we go out on, but they also have
troubleshooters that end up being responded -- or responding out to calls when people
have suspected incidents as well. So, they may be able to provide some statistics on
the number of -- of calls that they respond to.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird, did you have a question?
Bird: No, I didn't.
De Weerd: Oh. Okay.
Bird: Thanks, Tam.
De Weerd: Thank you, Jerry. I would appreciate it if Intermountain has anything that
they would like to add. That's Intermountain Gas. Not Intermountain Hospital.
R. Peterson: Thank you, Mayor, Members of the Council. I do, actually. I put some
numbers together -- actually, Randy, our district manager, did.
De Weerd: If you can state your name just for the record.
R.Peterson: My name is Robert Peterson. I'm safety manager for Intermountain Gas
Company.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 35 of 45
De Weerd: Thank you.
R.Peterson: We respond to all types of emergencies, whether they be gas leaks,
carbon monoxide issues, lines getting hit in yards, things like that. We did put some
numbers together from October until now, so the last six months, because we wanted to
see what we were finding out there as well and we had -- we issued 60 red tags in the
City of Meridian for faulty equipment. Of those 60 27 or 45 percent were not related to
carbon monoxide. Forty-eight percent were related to CO, but only seven percent of
those were related to nonventing appliances. So, only seven percent of the 60 -- so, we
had four of them in six months that were related to the venting issue that they are
talking about, so -- and I can tell you that, you know, we -- the amendment as written
right now is actually I think, you know, on the right track. If homes are going to be so
tight and the new water heater construction the way they are built to pull air in, you
talked about having your water heater in your garage -- or one of you did. It used to be
they had to be 18 inches off the ground or -- so, if you have spilled gas in your garage
or something like that it's lighter than air -- or heavier than air so it wouldn't ignite it. The
new water heaters -- so, an FDR water heater have an intake on them, basically, for air
and they have a screen on them -- and, actually, some of them have two. And those
will plug up and it's not the water heater's fault, but if they are in an area where there is
a lot of lint or something those plug up and they are not maintained properly, they will
start burning dirty and, then, if you have a negative draft in the home, if it is in the
occupyable space, then, you have that -- that carbon monoxide coming in. If a water
heater is -- is maintained per manufacturer instructions, maybe that's where -- maybe
that's where we need to get some -- some education out there on maintenances of
appliances and things like that, because any appliance can malfunction. An electric
appliance, an oil furnace, or anything can malfunction if it's not properly maintained. I'm
the guy they call at Intermountain Gas when something bad happens. I get that phone
call. I'm the first line of defense and I don't want that phone call, you know, somebody
passed away. But I can tell you that there are a lot of sources of CO. We are talking
about CO calls from the fire departments and things like that. We find people heating
their homes with barbecues. We find people heating their homes with ranges and the
deaths that we find -- that I have been experienced have not necessarily come from a
natural draft appliance, but it can happen. If you have a small apartment that's not built
correctly and there is not enough air supplies -- the space in that occupyable space is
not large enough to support that appliance, which I suspect is the issue in a lot of these
small apartments or can be an issue, especially with these newer style water heaters.
So, like I say, out of 27 red tags -- 29 red tags only four were due to venting problems,
so -- and we do find as well that CO detectors are a great line of defense and they are
pretty reliable. In the early '90s they were not, but since about 1998 they have become
very reliable. Again, if they are properly maintained, batteries are changes and things
like that.
De Weerd: Thank you, Robert. Any questions?
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 36 of 45
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Mr. Peterson. The issue of homeowner responsibility, I mean that's
something -- you're right, I happen to have an electric furnace and if I don't maintain it
that thing is going to cause problems. Is there a way we can have -- or the city can
require certain things that if they have these appliances in their home they have a
packet -- the builder -- I don't know who does it and I don't know if it's possible, but just
to let them know there is a responsibility there for them to maintain -- you know, if we go
forward with this and require alarms, but -- I don't know. I'd like your thoughts on that, if
that's a possibility or if we are trying to bite off something bigger than we can chew.
R.Peterson: When we -- as a utility we are required by the Public Utilities Commission
-- and we want our customers to be safe anyway -- we actually do annual reminders to
customers in mailers and TV spots and things like that, but sometimes it just goes
unheard and (think -- I think the hardest person to reach in all that is your -- your
homeowners seem to do a better job, but if you're a renter you just -- you just seem to
have that thought that, hey, my landlord is going to take care of this for me or, you
know, some renters don't even -- they don't know whether their furnace is electric or
gas, you know. So, it's really hard and -- but every customer we have, you know, gets
something every year reminding them to and I see spots on TV occasionally to remind
folks. You know, I would suggest as a city maybe working through, you know, some of
the -- some of the groups that Jerry works with, the building associations and the
American Gas Association have great messages on carbon monoxide. You know, there
is free -- free messages out there that we could -- you know, that people put together --
and these groups put together that we could get the word out to maintain the
equipment, because I -- you know, it's just an issue with any appliance, to be honest
with you.
Hoaglun: And, Madam Mayor, just to follow up. You have mentioned something about
natural draft and size of apartments. Is that something if we were to look at not having
natural draft appliances that it would be only -- it could only be in maybe homes, I mean
because homeowners as you mentioned, there is more likelihood of them maintaining
things as opposed to apartment dwellers. Does the size of the apartment matter, that if
it's under a certain square footage that is prohibited there. I mean are there some areas
that we could look at instead of just saying, okay, no natural draft period, is there
something that we should consider in that arena?
R. Peterson: I can tell you from Intermountain Gas's perspective in our experience
responding to carbon monoxide calls, that is the low hanging fruit. We have apartments
designed across the state that -- that if they put them in with -- in a laundry room, you
know, with lint and stuff that plugs them up and, then, you have afan -- you know,
several fans and not much square footage in there, you know, there are requirements
per the international codes, all three of them, that -- that require a certain amount of
makeup for combustion there for those appliances and if there is not enough air and the
returning fan's on, it is an issue. And when we look at the structure we need to look at
all of those factors before they decide what can go in that home or that structure -- you
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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know, how much air can be pulled out of it. There are codes for that and there are
codes for, you know, the amount of living space necessary to supply air to those and
the unusual type construction that has been getting tighter and tighter since the early
'90s hasn't helped us much. And I think the ,industry is -- is slowly moving that way.
They are designing more appliances that are seal combusted. They are putting more
safeties on them. These water heaters all have safeties on them that if the -- if the
burner doesn't get enough air it's supposed to shut them off, but I will be honest with
you, we found a lot of them out there in our travels that just weren't shutting them off
and this apartment is -- I suspect is one of those that didn't shut off.
De Weerd: Any other questions from Council?
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Rountree: Not right now.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a public hearing and I would invite anyone who would like to
provide testimony. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Calkins: Madam Mayor and Council, I'm Kenny Calkins and I live at 2144 Charitan in
Boise.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Calkins: I spoke last week and one of the things I failed to do was mention that I also sit
on the board for the Boise city plumbing and mechanical code -- board and Ichair --
started chairing that a few years ago and one of my goals there -- at that time we had a
lot of rules that were different in Boise than there were in the state and my goal there is
to make sure that we keep -- like you asked earlier -- that we keep all of the laws or the
ordinances or however they are named similar to that that is in the state and I do think
that the state is going to move forward with some of this stuff. March 1st the plumbing
contractors in the valley got a letter from the city of Boise said we are now going to
require carbon monoxide sensors on all new water heater installations. We contractors
-- for the most part -- there is a few rogue contractors out there that didn't like that
either, but most of us we were happy. I put two carbon monoxide sensors on every one
of my service vans, because whenever we install a water heater in Boise we -- we put
them in as required by the code. I don't know if necessarily a code change needs to be
done, as much as just an enforcement of what is already there needs to be done. I do
appreciate Mr. Freckleton giving me an advance copy of the -- the revised ordinance.
Part of that ordinance I'm a little concerned about, because they don't really differentiate
-- they took out the part about existing homes, but they don't -- in the part above that
they don't differentiate between new and existing and if you don't differentiate between
new and existing wouldn't that be everything? And so I'm -- you know, the reading of
that I'm a little concerned about. But I don't want you to not, you know, pass -- I don't
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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want you to not pass this, because I really want us to -- in the City of Meridian to require
carbon monoxide sensors and I think maybe we look at part of that and leave the rest of
it, so that we can stay more in concert with the -- you know, with the state of Idaho,
because it's -- it's not -- after listening to some of the conversation about the special
events and if you can imagine just in plumbing contractors there is nearly 1,000 licensed
plumbing contractors in the state of Idaho and all of them are licensed to do work in
your city and so, you know, they try to make sure that we keep everything the same
throughout the state, I -- to me it's very important.
De Weerd: Any questions for Kenny?
Rountree: Not right now. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Calkins: Thank you.
De Weerd: Anyone else have testimony they would like provide? Okay.
Rountree: I guess everybody is okay with it, then?
De Weerd: Further comment?
Freckleton: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. With regard to
Kenny's question regarding differentiation of new versus existing, the code as written in
this ordinance it does talk about natural draft systems are prohibited and it refers back
to the exception. That is in reference to new construction. We -- we can't -- I mean if
have this section here I couldn't just retroactively go out to some house and enforce this
section of code, you know, without -- you know, if they are not in there doing a complete
remodel or something like that, Ican't -- we can't just go in and heavy-handedly address
something that's existing. So, this is in reference to new construction. I really don't
have anything more to add. I'd give Jerry the opportunity if he has anything that he
could think of with regard to the statewide efforts. I do -- you know, I have been in
contact with -- with the building leadership of all the other municipalities that surround us
and all of them are very -- very interested in what we are doing here. So, I think that we
are probably going to see some action from the other cities once we chart a course,
so --
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Bruce, in the letter from BCA they certainly identified some of the issues that
you brought up, but they did not speak to the idea of not allowing these systems in
conditioned space. I think --didn't talk about that in new construction. Did they express
their opinion to you when you talked to them about that?
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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Freckleton: Madam Mayor, Councilman Rountree, the only -- the only direct reference
that has been made to the new construction aspect of this was the a-mail that I received
last night from Steve Martinez.
Rountree: Okay.
Freckleton: Again, his concern there was that, you know, if we pass this in Meridian
their fear is that they will see a statewide initiative.
Rountree: And, Madam Mayor, if I could follow up. Would you explain to me what
conditioned space is. I had an interpretation of that before I came this evening, but I'm
thinking from what I'm hearing there might be another that -- let me explain my thought.
My first thought was is this would not be within the bounds of the walls within living
space of any residential dwelling, but it seems to me that if these appliances were put
in, for instances a cavity within bounds of that living space where makeup air was
provided by whatever sources, it -- in effect, it had outside air supply. Would that space
in itself be conditioned space or would that be excluded?
Freckleton: Councilman Rountree, that's a very good question. When we refer to the
combustion closet that's essentially what we are talking about is they -- they create a
sealed room inside the home. In other words, door has weather stripping on it, has a
threshold with a sill plate on it. The air is brought into that closet from the outside,
exhaust goes to the outside. It has no openings to the inside space of the home. That
is, then, considered -- or is not considered conditioned space, that closet itself.
Conditioned space -- a simple way to look at it is --
Rountree: It could actually surround that closet.
Freckleton: Correct.
Rountree: Okay.
Freckleton: Correct. Conditioned space -- an easy way to look at it is it's the area
where you're warming the air or cooling the air for your comfort. You're conditioning the
space -- living space, which you're not doing in a garage.
Rountree: All right.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor real quick. Bruce, I wanted to get your take on looking at
natural draft prohibited in apartments only, as opposed to single family homes.
Thoughts on that.
Freckleton: Madam Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, you know, it's -- I think we all can
acknowledge that the apartments are an area -- it's a certain element of our society that
it's -- there is certainly what I would consider maybe a little more in danger in the fact
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April 2, 2013
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that when someone rents an apartment they are taking it on faith and they are trusting
that someone is looking out for them. I think that the comments that have been raised
about the -- the space being small certainly plays into it, but I believe that through the
testing that Jerry and his guys have done in single family homes, they have seen some
of the same types of concerns replicated there as well and I think that when we are
sealing the building envelopes up tighter and tighter and we are not providing that make
up air, we can replicate the same type of problems that we are seeing in the apartments
and maybe Jerry can talk more about that, because he's certainly done a lot of testing of
not only homes in Meridian, but homes throughout the valley and other parts of the state
as well.
Hoaglun: Okay. Jerry, would you mind responding to that question?
Peterson: Madam Mayor, Councilman Hoaglun, I -- the last -- one of the last houses I
tested was a 2,800 square foot -- a two story house. A brand new home. A custom
home. A well-built home. And it took us a couple of days of work in coordination to get
that one to function and that was part of the initial reasoning for pushing this to new
construction, because it -- it's not -- you know, there is -- I don't know if there is a higher
level of risk just because they are smaller space. It's the total construction and the
amount of exhaust that's present in the house.
Hoaglun: Okay. Yeah. I get the picture on that. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.
De Weerd: Thank you. Okay. Anything further from Council?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Seeing no further comment, I move that we close the public hearing on 9-E.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on Item 9-E. All
those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, my -- my thoughts on this are -- certainly we have hit a high
note with the CO sensors. There still seems to be some outstanding issues with the
remainder and a lot of issues with that portion that's been taken out. We have heard
that there are some building codes that require certain amounts of makeup air to
minimize this potentially happening. There is also apparently a move afoot to have
groups noodle this issue more within the community of experts and professionals in the
plumbing industry. Although I -- with a better explanation of what conditioned space
means, I'm moving a little closer to the restriction on new residential with that definition,
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April 2, 2013
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I'm still not ready to go there, so I guess that's my position at this point in time.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Igo along with Councilman Rountree's thoughts and I also think that we are going
to be driving a lot people to do stuff underground, as I have expressed to Bruce. I don't
-- I just don't feel comfortable that this is clean and understanding to the average person
and I -- I just -- I can't support it at this time.
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would submit that the portions relating to new construction -- the average
person doesn't really need to understand. The people that are in the construction
business need to understand it. The average person assumes their house is safe when
they buy it. The same as apartment dwellers assume that somebody's taking care of it.
My feeling is if there is a way to assure people that they are getting the safety that they
think they are getting, requiring this in new construction -- I don't see that as much of a
burden. There may be a little design change that may -- needs to happen on one
percent of the buildings that were going to be built the old way, 99 percent of them it
doesn't affect. So, I feel strongly that this is a piece that we should leave in. I agree
with the sentiment that rules like this should be consistent throughout the state, but I
would rather see the state adopt something similar to this and whatever they adopt we
will probably come back and say, okay, we agree with the new state ordinance and it
would supersede this ordinance, but I feel as an interim step -- the example that we
have already had -- and as I say, people not knowing really what they are buying when
they are buying, for us to require this of the last one percent -- it's the same thing. We
have speeding ordinances and people ignore those. We have to have ways to chase
them down. We have other ordinances that some people just don't like and we end up
with enforcement things. But I don't think being afraid that some of the one percent
won't go along with this is a reason not to do it. I feel -- I feel that two pieces that we
have in the ordinance now are important elements and, frankly, I hope the discussion
continues on the piece that we removed to find a good answer to that one.
De Weerd: Thank you. Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, comment. I have no problems requiring carbon monoxide
alarms in new construction, nor when permit work is being done that they have to put
them in on that permit work being done and it's definitely for their safety. On the issue
of natural draft systems being prohibited as you can probably tell from my line of
questioning I was trying to parse out is there a difference between sizes of houses,
apartments versus single family homes -- you know, are we overreaching when we say,
okay, new construction we are not going to be doing anything and from what I gather is,
no, the standards that we are going to in efficiency -- in energy efficiency is to tighter
and tighter homes. That's just the way it is. The federal government drives that.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
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Homeowners want that, because they don't want to pay, you know, energy costs, they
want it as little as possible, so you want to make sure they are doing that. Natural gas
is a product that will be used more and more. We are in the midst of a boom in this
country and that's a good thing, because it's plentiful, it's domestic and it does a
wonderful job. Very clean burning. But at the same time we have to be aware that
there are hazards to using that and we have to make sure things are in place that
protect people who are in homes that utilize gas. And having said that, there are ways
to do that in a safe manner without adding a large cost to the home and when we walk
about prohibiting within the conditioned space, meaning it's drawing the air from those
rooms that are -- people are inside of, there are ways to pull that air from outside and do
it in a cost -- cost effective manner. So, I really don't have a problem with saying no
natural draft systems within conditioned space in new construction. It's -- it's a small
step, but it's one I think that I can live with.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, just a follow up. I don't have a fear that someone is not
going to like whatever it is we do. My concern is I don't like being on the bleeding edge
of something that a group of people in the industry apparently relatively quickly are
going to get together to hopefully come to some resolve. That resolve might be
something different than what we do tonight. Other than the fact that it sounds like the
entire community out there has resolved that sensors will work. I don't have a problem
with making an ordinance for something that has consensus and has been identified as
a workable solution. But if there is another workable solution I don't want to be out
there on the bleeding edge for about two or three weeks or potentially six months and,
then, have to get consistent with the rest of the community out there that's come with
another solution and that solution is no new construction for residential will have these
appliances in conditioned space, I'm okay with that. But if there is another solution or
change or a twist on that that has resolution out there, I'd rather do it one time and not
do it a couple times. I would also like to add to my previous comments that I think it's
something that we need to get behind both with our building department and -- and the
state building division and the professionals in the community that are doing this work
and get some kind of literature that can be handed out to those people who may not
own any appliances, know that they own the appliances and need to take care of them.
I built my own house. I had to sort through the trash as the contractors left to get the
manuals for the appliances for my home. I have them, they are in a notebook, and I
look at them regularly. I will bet I'm one in a hundred thousand that does that. So,
people who own their homes and built their homes don't know what they need to do. I
think it's our responsibility as people knowing that there is an issue out there to do what
we can to let those people know that they have a responsibility to maintain those
appliances and here is the things you need to do. Get them manually inspected by a
professional. If there is an issue get them repaired. If they are in a conditioned space
here is the potential danger for them to consider and take the responsibility. And I fully
support that effort. But I'm not -- I -- again, I'm not -- I have been on the bleeding edge
too many times and I just don't want to go out there again.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 43 of 45
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I wanted to agree with Councilman Rountree and I meant to mention that, that
I think -- you know, if the fire department would be involved in that it seems like a
natural fit for you guys to be involved in PR for disseminating information and whatnot,
since you respond and find a way to work with Intermountain Gas and other groups on
that, I think that would be wonderful and also what Councilman Rountree and I have
experienced dealing with the state legislature over the years and one thing I have
learned in my experience is that a half a loaf is better than no loaf and I think where we
have agreement is on the carbon monoxide detectors and requiring them in new and
permitted instances and I can certainly live with moving forward with that, too, and then
wait and see what -- what we can come up with based on this collaboration and other
efforts that are going to go on out there and not do a round, but come to a place that we
can all agree on and move forward from there.
De Weerd: Okay. So, with all of that said, how would you like to move forward?
Bird: Let's do the -- Item F, reading of the --
De Weerd: We have already had the reading.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, question for Mr. Nary. If -- is it cleaner for us to come back
with a new ordinance, if that's what we want, or we can just amend this one to take out
a section? I --
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, it's always probably cleaner to bring
back a final product that you want to see and how you want it before you approve it.
Hoaglun: Okay. I like that answer and I was looking for that answer. Thank you.
Rountree: So, Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I would move that we continue the third reading of this ordinance for next
week, the meeting of the 12th, which would be our -- oh, gosh. That's a month ago.
Bird: The 9th.
Rountree: The 9th.
Bird: That's our workshop.
Rountree: We can do it on a workshop and have the revised ordinance speak only to
the installation of CO sensors.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 44 of 45
Bird: I would second that.
De Weerd: Okay. I have a motion and a second to continue the third reading of this
ordinance with the amendment as stated to next week's meeting on April 9th. All those
in favor say aye. Any opposed?
Zaremba: Opposed.
De Weerd: Okay.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE NAY.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I would mention to the audience that our workshop meetings
are at 3:00 o'clock. For our meeting on April 9th we will start at 3:00 o'clock.
De Weerd: It's a little bit more friendly than midnight, so -- okay. Well, we will put this
on again next week for the third reading and I will thank staff. I know I said this before.
I know you tried to get this out to as many of the stakeholder groups as possible to get
feedback and -- and certainly appreciate that the state is looking at this and I would say
that the city has been on the bleeding edge on a number of things that have pushed the
state along in doing the right thing, too. I think we had it in texting while driving and
pseudoephedrine and some things that, again, were real issues in our particular
community and with the texting while driving it did serve as kind of the fuel behind
getting it adopted at the state level, because it was tried at a local level and tested and
the bugs worked out and those kind of things, too. So, I appreciate, Councilman
Rountree, what you said. There is -- there is a fine line indeed. So, thank you. It's
been good conversation and we will -- we will bring it back next week.
Item 11: Future Meeting Topics
De Weerd: We are at Item 11 under Future Meeting Topics. Council, any topics for
consideration for future agendas?
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Okay. I would entertain a motion to adjourn.
Bird: So moved.
Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
MEETING ADJOURNED At 9:16 P.M.
Meridian City Council
April 2, 2013
Page 45 of 45
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