HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-01-22~~E IDIAN^
CITY COUNCIL REGULAR
MEETING AGENDA
Tuesday, January 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM
Convened at 7:17 p.m.
1. Roll-Call Attendance
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
2. Pledge of Allegiance
3. Community Invocation by Troy Drake of Calvary Chapel
4. Adoption of the Agenda Adopted
5. Consent Agenda Approved (Pg 2-4)
A. Approve Minutes of January 8, 2013 City Council Pre-Council
Meeting
B. Approve Minutes of January 8, 2013 City Council Workshop
Meeting
C. Approve Minutes of January 15, 2013 City Council Regular
Meeting
D. Resolution No. 13-904: Development Fee Postponement for
Joint School District No. 2
E. Ada County Housing Authority Community Development Block
Grant (CDBG) PY2012 Sub-recipient Agreement
F. Meridian Food Bank Community Development Block Grant
(CDBG) PY2012 Sub-recipient Agreement
G. NHS Lending, Inc. Community Development Block Grant
(CDBG) PY2012 Sub-recipient Agreement
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, January 22, 2013 Page 1 of 4
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
H. Sewer Main Easement for Kendall Ford Located at 250 E
Overland Rd
6.
7.
8.
I. Sewer and Water Main Easement for Idaho Central Credit
Union Located at 3375 E Ustick Rd
J. Sewer and Water Main Easement Modification for Idaho
Central Credit Union Located at 3375 E Ustick Rd
K. Memorandum of Understanding Between the Meridian
Speedway and the City of Meridian Regarding a Joint
Presentation of the July 4, 2013 Event for a City Contribution
Amount Not to Exceed $6,000.00 and a Meridian Speedway
Contribution Amount of $6,000.00 for a Total Not-to-Exceed
Amount of $12,000.00
L. MDA 12-006 David Kleiner Property by CarMax Auto
Superstores West Coast, Inc. Located at Northwest Corner of
E. Fairview Avenue and N. Venture Street Request:
Modification to the Development Agreement for the David
Kleiner Property to Allow "Vehicle Repair, Major or Minor" and
"Vehicle Sales or Rental and Service" as Principal Permitted
Uses and a "Vehicle Washing Facility" as an Accessory Use
Only on the Eastern Portion of the Site. Additionally, the
Requirement for Fencing to be Provided Along the West Edge
of the Street Buffer on the East Boundary of the Site Adjacent
to Venture Subdivision is Proposed to be Modified to Only
Require Fencing North of E. Venture Place
Items Moved From Consent Agenda
Department Reports
A. Mayor's Office: Mayor's Youth Advisory Council (MYAC)
Update (Pg 4-6)
Action Items
A. Public Hearing: AZ 12-014 Tomorrow's Hope by Thair Pond
Located East Side of N. Meridian Road and South of E. Ustick
Road Request: Annexation of 6.99 Acres of Land from RUT
and R-1 in Ada County to the R-8 (Medium-Density Residential)
Zoning District Approved (Pg 6-11)
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, January 22, 2013 Page 2 of 4
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
B. Public Hearing: CUP 12-020 Tomorrow's Hope by Thair Pond
Located East Side of N. Meridian Road and South of E. Ustick
Road Request: Conditional Use Permit Approval to Operate a
Nursing Care Facility Consisting of Two (2) Buildings on 1.9
Acres in a Proposed R-8 Zone Approved (Pg 6-11)
C. FP ~-2-00-~ 13-001 Chesterfield No. 2 by Northside Management
Located at South Side of W. Pine Avenue, Midway Between N.
Black Cat Road and N. Ten Mile Road Request: Final Plat
Approval of 43 Residential Lots and 7 Common Lots on 9.38
Acres in an R-8 and R-15 Zoning District Approved (Pg 11-14)
D. Public Hearing: ZOA 12-003 Sign Code Text Amendment by
City of Meridian Community Development Planning Division
Request: Amend Sections of the City's Current Standards for
Signs Public Hearing Continued to 2/19/13 (Pg 14-26)
E. Request by Matt Hart of Civil Survey Consultants for a Fee
Waiver for a Rezone Application for the Property Located at
807 N. Meridian Road Denied (Pg 26-36)
9. Continued Department Reports
A. Community Development: Community Development Block
Grant (CDBG) PY2012 Budget Amendment for aNot-to-Exceed
Amount of $256,727.00 Approved (Pg 36-37)
B. Community Development: Meridian Interchange Design
Elements - Discuss a Potential Theme for the New Meridian
Interchange, as well as Bicycle and Pedestrian Facilities,
Lighting Options, Landscaping Improvements and Other
Aesthetic Elements (Pg 37-44)
C. Public Works: Franklin Road -Ten Mile to Linder Project:
Authorize the Removal of Certain Parks Department Bid Items
and Authorize the Bid Amount for the Installation of Sewer
Main, 12" Recycled Water Main, Water Main and Landscape
Area Interim Treatment Installation Project in Conjunction with
the ACHD Franklin Road -Ten Mile to Linder Road Project for
a Not-to-Exceed Amount of $1,015,425.40 Approved (Pg 44-45)
D. Legal/Human Resources: Wellness Incentive Budget
Amendment for a Not-to-Exceed Amount of 20,100.00
Approved (Pg 45-46)
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, January 22, 2013 Page 3 of 4
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
E. Legal Department: Discuss Amendment of Mobile Sales Unit
Licensing Ordinance Regarding Minors (Pg 46-51)
10. Ordinances
A. Second Reading of Ordinance No. 13-1539: Adoption of 2009
Uniform Plumbing Code and City of Meridian Amendments (Pg
51-53)
11. Future Meeting Topics
Adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, January 22, 2013 Page 4 of 4
All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian.
Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing,
please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting.
Meridian City Council January 22, 2013
A meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:00 p.m., Tuesday,
January 22, 2013, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Charlie Rountree, David Zaremba, Keith
Bird, and Brad Hoaglun.
Others Present: Bill Nary, Jaycee Holman, Caleb Hood, Bill Parsons, Kyle Radek,
Jamie Leslie, Parry Palmer, Mike Barton, Kristy Vigil, Tim Curns and Dean Willis.
Item 1: oll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: Thank you so much. We apologize for the delay in the beginning of our
regular meeting, but I will go ahead and start the regular City Council meeting for
Tuesday, January 22nd. It is 7:17. We will start with roll call, please.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance.
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is our Pledge of Allegiance. If you will all rise and join us in the
pledge to our flag.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
Item 3: Community Invocation y Troy ®rake of Calvary Chapel
De Weerd: Item No. 3 is our community invocation. Tonight we will be led by Troy
Drake with Calvary Chapel. Thank you for joining us today. If you will all join us in the
community invocation and take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection.
Welcome.
Drake: Thank you. Lord God in Heaven, thank you so much for the United States of
America and the freedoms that we have and, Lord, that we can come together like this
and freely worship and -- or not and, Lord, that we can -- we have that liberty in this
country and we are so grateful for what we have and we have elected officials. God,
you have been good to us and so we thank you for America. We thank you also for
Meridian and what you have done here and just the prosperity that we see and so many
good people doing good things and it's just awesome to see, God, what can happen
with a place where you have blessed. And, Lord, we -- we just want to pray for our city
and that you would keep it safe, God, that the firemen, the police officers, those -- the
city servants who protect us and do that work so diligently, Lord, we just pray that you
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 2 of 53
protect them and that the issues with crime and so forth, Lord, that you would be over
those and that keep our city safe, keep the citizens safe, the young people, Lord, and
just thinking about those that are poor and cold and, God, that they would find their way
to shelter and, you know, our faith community would reach out to those people and help
those that are in need and hungry, God, that that would be done here and, finally, God, I
just pray for these people, that you would give them wisdom and encourage them, Lord,
as they make decisions here tonight in this meeting and also every day, God, that they
would -- that you would bless them, God, give them much grace and encourage them
as they represent our city, Lord. So, we give you the honor and the glory, in Jesus'
name, amen.
De Weerd: Troy, I believe this is the first time you have been here.
Drake: I have done it before a couple times.
De Weerd: Have I given you a pin?
Drake: I have got one. If you will forgive me for not wearing it, so I apologize. I will
make sure I do it next time.
De Weerd: Okay. Well, we will keep you to that. Thank you for being here.
Item Adoption of the Agenda
De Weerd: Item No. 4 is adoption of the agenda.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I move adoption of the agenda as printed.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as printed. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 3 of 53
C. pprove inutes of January 1, 2013 City Council egular
Meeting
D. esolution IVo. 13-904: Development Fee Postponement for
Joint School District o.
Ada County Housing Authority Community Development lock
Grant (CD ) PY01 Sub-recipient Agreement
F. eridian Food ank Community Development lock rant
( ) PY201 Sub-recipient Agreement
H Lending, Inc. Community Development Block Grant
(CD ) Y01 Sub®recipient Agreement
H. Sewer Main asement for Kendall Ford Located at 250
®verland Rd
I. Sewer and ater Main Easement for Idaho Central Credit
Union Located at 3375 Ustick d
J. ewer and aer ain asement Modification for Idaho
Central Credit Union Located at 3375 E Ustick Rd
De Weerd: Item 5 is our Consent Agenda.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 4 of 53
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: I move approval of the Consent Agenda and the Mayor to sign and the Clerk
to attest.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. If there is
no discussion, Madam Clerk, roll call, please.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item Items ove From Consent Agenda
De Weerd: There were no items moved from the Consent Agenda.
Item 7: Department sports
yor's ffice: ayor's Youth Advisory Council (MYAC)
Update
De Weerd: So, we will move to Item 7-A, which is the report from the Mayor's Youth
Advisory Council. Caleb, welcome.
Knapp: Madam Mayor and Members of the Council, thank you so much for having me
once again. I really love the opportunity you guys give me to -- just to report about
MYAC, so I will get right to it.
De Weerd: Okay. You need to start by telling us your name.
Knapp: Oh. I'm sorry. My name is Caleb Knapp and I'm the communications director
from MYAC.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Knapp: So, I'm communicating with you. And I guess like I said, I guess I will start right
off. First of all, MYAC has been very busy since the last time I was here. One of the
biggest things we did is that we sent four of our youth members to a conference in D.C.
where they received some training and were good -- okay. First of all, they had a ton of
fun and it was an amazing opportunity and they are very thankful for it. At the -- at the
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 5 of 53
conference they received training that will be used for our Treasure Valley Youth
Summit in April. Also in early December we had representatives from the Cap Ed -- the
Cap Ed people. I don't know what you call them. They are really great people. From
the Cap Ed to lead us in an event called Mad City Money. Basically they come in and
they set up these tables where they show all the different kids to come and say, hey,
this is what real life is like and it helps prepare kids for real life. I know it did for me. It
showed me stuff that I never would have thought of if I hadn't -- hadn't been there
never would have thought of like not buying a Ferrari, that maybe buy an older car. And
also one of the really cool things about this time is that we had a lot of kids come,
because on top of that -- instead of just our normal group, which we did have a good
show up for that event -- we also -- we had the Eagle city council come, which was
pretty fun, because we got to see like, oh, other people, you know. They have -- they
do stuff, too. So, they got to come. It was really good to see other people and another
MYAC, which was really fun for us. Also right before Christmas we had the amazing
opportunity -- amazing to make Ben's Bells and participate in that program. They are
bells that are reminders for people to -- and to the general public to be kind, because we
all need that and they are put in our community for people to find and act as a reminder
to go above and beyond to help each other out. So, they are really good reminders.
know like for me it's a good reminder, I keep one in my bag that I take places and it's
actually a good reminder, I will just testify myself with that. Also -- oh. And even on top
of that after they -- they put -- after we worked on these bells they were made and
shipped to New Town, Connecticut, as a gift of healing to that community and even on
top of that the news did a story on it, which I felt was cool. And, then, so right after the
Christmas holiday, moving along, we jumped right into where we left off and we sent a
team to the state capital to lobby with the American Lung and Heart Association. The
team met face to face with Senator Winder and Representative Holtzclaw. We were
also presented with our government affairs subcommittee advocacy campaign will be at
the legislative town hall and host our annual legislative breakfast. I wasn't personally
there, but I heard that it was -- it was a success. They were -- we were all really happy
to host seven state legislators to a breakfast and to advocate for the Idaho Suicide
Prevention Hotline. And, then, just a few other items to note that we got moving along,
we are really excited about. We were able to secure a partnership with the Mayor's
Anti-Drug Coalition for our anti-nicotine event by them -- by them matching our one
thousand dollars we won from a grant, we are now able -- which this is something we
are really excited for -- we are now able to rent out Big AI's for a night and be the entire
bowling alley for an event that we call STAND and we want to raise awareness for teens
to really, you know, come and bowl and have a good time, but also don't put nicotine in
yourself, you know, and the dangers of it .and why it's important and we thought this
would be a really good way to really get the message across. So, we thought this would
be a good way and we were so thankful for the -- the Mayor's Anti-Drug Coalition to give
us this grant to help us with Big AI's to help rent out Big AI's. And so at this event they
will learn all the dangers of smoking and on top of that another thing we are really
excited about -- we were -- the executive council of MYAC we were featured in a two
spread page in the Urban Liaison Magazine and they did a story in our Outreach To
Meridian. So, finally, to end this, after all the hard work we had put in, we went ice
skating and recently saw an Idaho Steelheads game. I also wasn't there at that, but,
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 6 of 53
believe me, I really do like MYAC, but I wasn't there, but I did also hear that it was good.
So, they always tell me good news. And so -- so, basically, all of MYAC -- because we
have been having a lot of fun time and been able to do some really cool things. So, we
have been really busy, so if you guys -- that's about it. Do you have any questions?
De Weerd: That was a good report, Caleb. Any questions from Council?
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: No.
Bird: Thank you.
Rountree: His enthusiasm wore me out.
Knapp: We are a determined group of young people to do something.
De Weerd: Well, I can tell you there is a lot of moving parts and really appreciate Ken
and the energy that he -- he gives to the group. But we have a lot of kids this year and
so they have divided into the subcommittees with government affairs that are attentive
to the advocacy campaign for the Idaho Suicide Prevention Hotline and STAND, which
stands for Students -- Students --
Knapp: Students -- never mind.
De Weerd: Let's see. STAND. Supporting Teen Against Nicotine Dependency. And
so that's the DA that the community service has been very active with Ben's Bells. They
are doing a number of events and to the Teen Activities Council. So, they are getting
prepared for a very busy spring as well and, Caleb, we appreciate your report tonight
and -- and, actually, Caleb just volunteered to write another grant that they are pursuing
and so just those -- those young people that are willing to stand up and to throw their
energy behind some of these things is just phenomenal. It's a pleasure being involved
with you.
Knapp: It's a pleasure being involved with all of you guys and Ken. I mean I'm so glad
you guy picked Ken. I mean he's one of the best guys, his energy into our group.
De Weerd: He owes you -- or you owe him, Ken. Thank you, Caleb.
Knapp: Thank you so much.
Bird: Thank you.
Item 8: Action Items
A. Public Hearing: A 12-014 Tomorrow's Hope by Thair Pond
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 7 of 53
Located East Side of eridin Road and South of .Ustick
Road Request: Annexation of 6.99 Acres of Land from RUT
and R-1 in Ada County to the - ( ediu-Density Residential)
Zoning District
Public Hearing: CUP 12-020 Tomorrow°s Hope by Thir Pond
Located East Side of . Meridian Road and South of E. Ustick
Road Request: Conditional Use Permit pproval to Operate a
Nursing Care Facility Consisting of Two () Buildings on 1.
Acres in a Proposed -8 Zone
De Weerd: Okay. Council, the next two items are public hearings and after I sign these
reports I am going to leave. My daughter leaves for the Netherlands in the morning. My
second daughter now. If someone thinks this sounds familiar. Now it's my older
daughter. So, I will be removing myself and turning this over to Council President
Hoaglun. But I will at this time open the two public hearings to Items A and B on AZ 12-
014 and CUP 12-020. And I will turn this over to staff at this point.
Parsons: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. The first item on your
agenda this evening is Tomorrow's Hope. The property is located on the east side of
Meridian Road south of Ustick Road. It's currently zoned R-1 and RUT in Ada County
and it consists of two parcels totaling, again, 6.99 acres. The property -- if you look at
the exhibit on the right-hand side you can see that the property is currently developed
with a single family residence and several out-buildings. Because there is two parcels
here the residence will remain as part of the annexation request. It is currently hooked
up to city sewer at this time. Upon annexation the house will have to hook up to city
water as well. Because the applicant is only requiring -- or requesting to develop the
northwest corner of the property, which is approximately 0.65 acres of land, the
applicant has provided a concept plan for you this evening showing how this project, the
nursing care facility, could integrate with the existing residence and also a future
subdivision. Keep in mind this is a general concept. We haven't looked for consistency
with dimensional standards or open space requirements in the UDC or even density
requirements as well. Just wanted to give Council a flavor of what could develop on
that property given the amount of acres out there. So, right now one of the
recommended DA provisions is to generally tie them to this concept plan. Really, the
intent, again, is just to show how all these uses could blend in the future. The applicant
is proposing a nursing care facility consisting of 16 beds in two buildings. There are
single story structures, approximately 2,800 square feet. Currently the existing home
does take access from Meridian Road as you see here. Because local street access is
not available at this time they are required to provide across-access agreement to
provide access to the facility and that's conditioned as well. It's pretty minimal
landscaping as well. Moving forward we are looking at a 25 foot landscape buffer along
Meridian Road and, then, along the southern boundary of the shared driveway they are
proposing a ten foot landscape buffer and the rest of it is just standard parking lot
landscaping in accordance with the UDC as well. Here are the elevations that the
applicant is proposing. Again, they are meant to emulate a single family home. That's
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 8 of 53
kind of the business scheme of this development is to keep it small in nature, small
scale, make it really look like a single family residential use out there and not -- at least
residential use on the property as well. Moving forward staff is recommending a DA
with the annexation of the property. The first DA provision just deals with the cost of
sewer and water connections will be borne by the developer. The second deals with
that general concept plan, just noting that any future development will have to comply
with any ordinances in effect at the time of development when there is something
proposed for that southern lot. Again mention to Council they are required to hook up to
city water within 60 days of annexation approval. Number D deals with the desire or the
requirement to comply with the R-8 dimensional standards. As I mentioned to you there
are several out-buildings and residents on this property that may remain if it develops as
shown in the concept plan. Moving forward we certainly want all those structures to
comply as well. The existing structures comply. If they don't in the future more than
likely they will have to be removed. Item E deals with right of way dedication. Because
they do front on Meridian Road ACRD is requiring that they dedicate 56 feet of right of
way measured from center line of the roadway. The applicant's site plan and landscape
plan before you this evening does depict that right of way dedication for the northern
half of where the nursing care facility is to be located and, then, Item S addresses timing
and construction. So, basically, with that concept plan, without having really any other
applications before us, staff felt it appropriate that we allow them -- and Commission
concurred -- that we move forward -- allow them to move forward with building permits
on the nursing care facility for that northwest corner, allow them to obtain building
permits for the existing residence and those out buildings and that no other building
permits would be issued until the property was -- received subdivision approval from
Council. During the December 28th, 2012, hearing Commission did recommend
approval of the applications with no modifications. Speaking in favor was Denice
Lauerman and Thair Pond. There were several neighbors commenting on the
application who were against the project. Their primary concerns had to deal with how
this place was -- how the facility would be run and what regulations were in place for
such a facility. I would let Council know that the applicant did spend some time with the
concerned neighbors after the meeting kind of detailing how the facility would be run. I
have not received any additional telephone calls or a-mails from any of the adjacent
neighbors on this application. I would let you know I did receive written testimony from
the applicant in agreement with the Commission's recommendations. Other than that
public testimony there aren't really any other outstanding issues before you this evening
and at this time I'd stand for any questions you have.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. Questions? Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Mr. President. Bill, what's the zoning of the properties to the north and south
and to the east?
Parsons: Councilman Hoaglun, Councilman, Rountree, right now there is a single
family residence to the north that's zoned R-4. And, then, to the south of this property
there is a residential subdivision zoned R-8 and, then, primarily the rest of it is --
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 9 of 53
Rountree: County.
Parsons: -- in the county still.
Hoaglun: Bill, I had a question. You mentioned across-access would be part of the
DA. Is that -- it would not be defined at this time, it would just -- if there is development
that -- that would match up, is that the requirement? Because I'm not sure how -- where
a cross-access would work on something like this looking to the north and south,
possibly to the east.
Parsons: Councilman Hoaglun, currently the existing driveway is right here. This
specific lot that -- where the nursing care facility is to be located does not have access
to Meridian Road. So, one of the conditions of a conditional use permit requires that
they submit a recorded cross-access agreement and, basically, this property owner
grants his own property the right to use his driveway and, then, turn in off of this shared
driveway and, then, the intent moving forward is that will become a local street in the
future, thereby meeting that requirement. We either get cross-access -- code requires
you to cross-access or a local street connection in the future and I think we have that
pretty well detailed in the staff report at this time.
Hoaglun: Or they just go away. It may not happen, depending on how everything
develops out.
Parsons: That's correct.
Hoaglun: Okay. Got it. Thank you. Any other questions for Bill? Would the applicant
like to testify? If you would give your name and address for the record. Welcome.
Lauerman: Hi. I'm Denice Lauerman at 462 East Shore Drive in Eagle, Idaho. I don't
really have much to add. Bill covered it and we are in agreement with all the design
features. We just want to fit into the neighborhood and we think we have done that -- a
good job of it. So, if you have any questions for me.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you, Denice. Council, any questions for her while she's up --
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: -- at this time? Okay. Thank you. We will move forward with the public
hearing portion of this. I have a couple of people signed up to testify. Maybe. Jacob
Stott. You're here with the scouts, right. Okay. And, then, Rick Stott, you're also with
the scouts. So, you signed this, we won't make you testify on this, so -- but write up a
good report. You got to explain every detail, so -- all right. Is there anybody else
present who would like to testify, provide comment to the City Council on this issue and
has not signed up, you're welcome to do so right now. Hearing none, usually we let the
applicant close the public hearing, but -- any comments, Denice, that you want to give
any further? Okay. Bill, anything further you want to comment on?
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January 22, 2013
Page 10 of 53
Parsons: No, sir.
Hoaglun: All right.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I did have one typically off-the-wall question that actually involves the
property just to the north. As an R-4 I would assume it's already annexed into the city.
What is the plan for access to Meridian Road if that property should develop differently?
Does it need access through this property or will it have a Meridian Road access?
Parsons: Councilman Zaremba, I don't really know the history on that property of why it
annexed at this time. At this junction, given the small scale of this development and the
way the site plan is oriented staff has not required across-access for that property.
Currently it is developed with a single family home with access to the street. If -- I would
envision at some point if this portion here were to redevelop more than just the home
that you see in the concept plan right now they have a pretty large lot here. At some
future point if that were to redevelop you could get some stub street to that property in
the future. At this time there is nothing structured in the DA or the conditional use
permit to require that cross-access.
Zaremba: But you're making it sound like farther down the line there might be
opportunity to -- if anything should come up --
Parsons: There may be an opportunity.
Zaremba: -- they might be able to. Okay. Thank you.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. Anything else, Council? All right.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: I move we close the public hearings on AZ 12-014 and CUP 12-020.
Rountree: Second.
Hoaglun: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearings on Items 8-A and
B. All those in favor? Any opposed? All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Bird: Mr. President?
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January 22, 2013
Page 11 of 53
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: I move we approve AZ 12-014 and to include all applicant and staff comments.
Zaremba: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion and a second to approve AZ 12-014. Madam Clerk, could
you, please, call the roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
Hoaglun: All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: I move we approve CUP 12-020 and to include all staff and applicant comments.
Zaremba: Second.
Hoaglun: I have a motion and a second to approve Item 8-B. Madam Clerk, could you,
please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
Hoaglun: All ayes. Motion carries. Thank you.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
F 1-001 1-001 Chesterfield o. by orthside angement
Located t oath Side of . Pine Avenue, Midway eeween .
black Cat oa an N. Ten Mile Road Request: Final Plat
Approval of 43 esidential Lots and 7 Common Lots on 9.38
Acres in n -8 and R-15 oning District
Hoaglun: Moving on to Item 8-C, FP 12-001 and, Bill, is this yours?
Parsons: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President, Members of the Council. Next item. on the
agenda is Chesterfield final plat. This property is located on the south side of Pine
midway between North Black Cat and North Ten Mile Road. Back in December --
December 2011 Council acted on the preliminary plat for Chesterfield and they
approved the preliminary plat and a rezone. That's why you see a small sliver of R-15
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 12 of 53
here as well. What I have done here for you on the preliminary plat is show you which
of the phase in -- what portion of the phase is being platted with this subdivision as well.
Open space for this subdivision is some passive open space lots, drainage lots here
and here, street buffers, and, then, also there is some common lots at the end of the R-
15zoned property as well. We are looking at 42 residential lots and seven common lots
on approximately 9.38 acres. I would let Council know that this plat does conform with
The approved preliminary plat and the open space approved with that project as well.
The applicant has submitted written comments in agreement with the conditions in the
staff report and at this time I'd stand for any questions you have.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. Council, do you have any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: None right now.
Hoaglun: Mr. Zaremba?
Zaremba: Mr. President, just thinking about this -- I know we have discussed this earlier
and I don't remember what the resolution is. The access to this subdivision is Pine,
which at this point, until it's connected, is a cul-de-sac and we generally don't allow
more than 50 residences to be built on a cul-de-sac until there is a second access. I
remember a discussion on this the last time something came through on this property
and I don't remember the resolution.
Parsons: Councilman Zaremba, I'm sorry I failed to mention that in my presentation, but
if you recall in that DA there was a concern for secondary access to this development
given the number of homes that had already been constructed and the number of lots
platted with the first phase and so as part of this plat the applicant is providing that
secondary access from Pine Avenue and that's what you see located here. So, there
will -- there won't be a cul-de-sac there. There will be a connection that comes through
and, then, ties in with phase -- so the next -- the next Pine Street connection is
somewhere in this location here and, then, these stub streets will be connected through.
So, I'm not sure if there is --
Zaremba: Yeah. My question, Mr. Chairman -- or President, if I can follow up.
Hoaglun: Sure.
Zaremba: My question actually was about Pine itself. Not the access to Pine, but the
access that Pine gives to Black Cat, actually.
Parsons: I don't believe that that will be extended beyond the 150 foot threshold, but I'd
defer to Parry on that to see if he had any comments on it.
Hoaglun: Chief Palmer, any comments?
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 13 of 53
Palmer: When you look at the neighborhood to the north of this, we feel that that gives
us the connectivity to be able to get in there should Pine be blocked, that there are other
accesses in from that neighborhood to the north to get into that area.
Hoaglun: So, it looks like, Chief Palmer, you come up -- Big Creek I think is the access
point from North Black Cat and, then, down --
Palmer: Correct.
Hoaglun: -- in that way.
Palmer: Correct.
Hoaglun: Okay. That meets the need.
Palmer: Yes.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
Zaremba: Thank you. Now that you mention it I do recall that. It seems like it was
awkward, but it's doable. Okay. Thank you.
Hoaglun: Any questions for staff at this time? Is the applicant here and like to
comment?
Brownlee: Thank you, Members of Council. For the record Shawn Brownlee, Trilogy
Development. Business address of 2358 South Titanium Place in Meridian. And just
want to stand for the record that we concur with the staff report and the conditions of
approval and with that I'll stand for any questions.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Shawn. Council, any questions for him? Great. Off the hook.
This not a public hearing, it is a final plat approval, so, Council, what's your desire?
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes, Councilman.
Rountree: I move we approve Item 8-C, FP 12-001, Chesterfield No. 2.
Zaremba: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion and a second to approve Item 8-C. Madam Clerk, would
you, please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 14 of 53
Hoaglun: All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
®. Public Hearing: Z®A 1-003 Sign Code Text Amendment by
City of Meridian Community ®evelopment Planning ®ivision
equest: Amend ections o the City's Current Standards for
ins
Hoaglun: Item 8-D is a public hearing on ZOA 12-003 and staff report on this will be --
oh. Kristine Welcome.
Hood: While Kristy is getting situated, I just, for the record, the agenda had the last
project Chesterfield final plat number two as final plat 12-001. It's actually 13-001. So,
same project, just -- it should be 13-001 on that project.
Hoaglun: That's -- thank you for pointing that out, Caleb. Yes, it is the first project of --
final plat of 2013. Council, do we want to make another motion on that or just
acknowledge that on the public record that --
Rountree: Mr. President, I would just note in public record that as printed on the
agenda is 12, but, in actuality, it was 13.
Hoaglun: And lappreciate --
Rountree: To reflect the current year.
Hoaglun: Yes. And our previous action was on 13-001. Thank you, Caleb. Kristy, you
are going to speak to us on Sign Code Text Amendment by the City of Meridian.
Vigil: Yes, I am.
Hoaglun: Go ahead.
Vigil: Good evening, President Hoaglun, Members of the Council. I'm here to present a
sign code text amendment. This is the first amendment that we have done since the
rewrite of the code and adoption in 2010. With this sign code text amendment a
majority of the revision is clean up, but there are three key revisions that I would like to
present to you this evening. One of the first -- one of the first revisions is to allow
projecting signs in commercial and residential districts. Currently the code only allows
projecting signs in the Old Town District and staff believes opening the projecting signs
to be allowed in commercial and industrial districts will help with projects like Fairview
and Eagle where CenterCal is and, then, also when our Ten Mile specific area plan
starts to develop and you have areas that have more walkability in there. So, staff is
trying to be proactive, instead of reactive on when those people want to put in projecting
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 15 of 53
signs. The second one that staff is proposing to change for one of our key changes is
to allow neon tube illumination. On the slide before you is a picture of the Hungry Onion
sign that has neon tube illumination both on the burgers and the curb service. This has
-- is currently not allowed for either wall signs or free-standing signs, but in the sign
industry this type of sign are coming back and so, again, we are trying to be proactive
instead of reactive in allowing these type of retro signs that are coming back in style in
the industry for our businesses and in the sign industry. The third key change in this
text amendment is to allow changeable copy signs to change more frequently than eight
seconds. This is a request that was brought forth by a Meridian business owner, but
because staff was going through with a UDC text amendment we decided to piggy back
this on with it. A little bit of history on that. The sign committee did meet on talking
about the changeable copy and removing the eight seconds for the static and we had
considerable discussion about it and could not come up with, okay, is eight seconds
good or is two seconds good and we are looking for some -- some recommendations on
that from Commission and Council. In addition to meeting with the sign committee, I
also did some research with the Idaho -- I think it's the Idaho Highway Administration
and I did some research with them on their signs they have above the interstates that
we will have Amber alerts or a buckle your seatbelt and they actually only have a
guideline on them, not a standard, and one of the guidelines is that they cannot be
longer than eight seconds. Eight seconds is their longest amount and the longer the
message is the shorter that amount. They have guidelines to be -- they even go down
to a few seconds I believe. So, that is the history that I have for you. On research on
that I have looked at different cities and eight seconds seems to be the standard. I have
looked nationwide. It seems to be the standard everywhere and because a Meridian
business owner has approached us for this we felt it important to bring it before the
Commission and the Council. This went before Council last month -- or, excuse me,
Commission last month. They did recommend approval. There was -- in favor was
Josh Davidson, Tony Meade, and, then, we had written testimony from Bill Fremgen.
The Commission recommended approval and one of the topics of discussion that they
had was the difference between a flashing sign and actually a sign that is changing. So,
with that I stand for any questions.
Hoaglun: Council, any questions?
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Kristy, on the last item -- and I have been in those discussions and I think
where you have come to is probably the best you can do. However, I have seen
changeable message signs that become flashing signs and have been quite distracted,
as a matter of fact, with one that was blue and red and all those colors you don't like to
see in your rearview mirror. Is there something that -- in the ordinance that does not
allow that?
Vigil: President Hoaglun, Councilman Rountree, there are three separate sections in
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January 22, 2013
Page 16 of 53
the UDC that does prohibit flashing, strobing and signs that will look like emergency
vehicles. So, we do have those sections in there that code enforcement can use --
Rountree: Okay.
Vigil: -- if they need to.
Rountree: Even though they have approval for a changeable message sign?
Vigil: Yes.
Rountree: Okay.
Nary: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, Council Member Rountree, that was kind
of a concern or discussion of staff today in talking both with code enforcement, as well
as my staff, about that and -- and I think partly what we are I guess seeking of the
Council is some direction, because Ms. Vigil is absolutely correct, we do have
provisions about flashing, dazzling, and the appearance, but they are legal terms.
Dazzling makes it sound like it's something that you do with your jacket, but it really
actually has legal terminology to it, so it really has a meaning. But it can be problematic
from an enforcement standpoint if you have no standards so that the message may
change instantaneously, continuously, that it looks like a flashing sign, but yet the text
might be changed. So, there might be a method that actually is changing constantly
and so I'm always concerned, I'm trying to give code some tools in which to be able to
enforce when we do get those types of complaints and I think that's our concern is that if
we create, you know, very little to no standards at all, it could be problematic to enforce
later for those types of things. We do understand that, you know, on the roadway, you
know, for example, on .Eagle Road at 55 miles an hour an eight second delay of a
message means you will have probably passed the sign by the time the second page of
that message were to appear. So, that is a problem and we recognize that that is
problematic. So, trying to figure out what's that balance between making sure the
message can be delivered, but yet not create the unintended consequence of more
problems than we started with is what we are seeking direction for tonight.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. I have a question for you, Bill. I know there are signs out
there that change more than -- quicker than eight seconds right now. What is the --
what's the penalty if they violate something like that?
Nary: Well, currently if there is a complaint about those types of things or it comes to
the attention of our code enforcement officer, they will make contact with the businesses
and explain to them the concerns about the ordinance and what the compliance
requirements are and at least to my knowledge -- and Lieutenant Overton isn't here
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 17 of 53
tonight -- I'm not aware through my office that we have had to go beyond that type of
contact. Many times it is an error, it's something that can get corrected, it's a temporary
thing, and so many times it is just a contact from the city reminding them what the
requirements are and it hasn't been a problem. My concern would be is, then, again, if
we have really no standard at all, then, it makes code enforcement even pretty --
probably not being able to take any action and so we will probably -- we do get
complaints now about signs flashing too much, too brightly, too often, and it isn't usually
about the message, usually it's just the appearance themselves. So, right now we do it
through code enforcement, it hasn't gotten beyond that. That's -- again, we are trying to
avoid getting beyond that.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill.
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: A question for Bill again. And do you believe this language and the
language in the rest of the ordinance is enforceable or do you need something more
specific?
Nary: Council Member Rountree, Members of the Council, Council President Hoaglun,
yeah, we were -- we would -- if the Council is comfortable with it, it's certainly -- I mean,
like I said, Lieutenant Overton isn't here, it was the discussion I know from the sign
committee, as well as our internal group as well and, then, again, at Planning and
Zoning, our concern is is that if there is really no standard, so there is no limitation on
how often the message can change, again, we know what a message means, we know
what the difference between a sign and flashing may sound like, we know what dazzling
might sound like in relation to a sign, but if there is no standard between when
messages can change I think it will be problematic to enforce between flashing text with
changing verbiage versus flashing pictures and lights. We probably will be able to
enforce, if it isn't text related, my guess is text will probably be incorporated somewhere
in the flashing lights or the flashing displays to indicate they are really changing
message. So, I don't know exactly how we are going to enforce it. We hadn't really
gotten to that discussion today as to how we would address that.
Hoaglun: We do have some people signed up to testify. I think I have got one who is a
scout, Tanner Clements. Are you still here? Okay. Welcome. Good notes again. Bill
Fremgen. I'll let you correct me, Bill. Welcome. State your name and address for the
record, please.
Fremgen: Bill Fremgen and I'm owner of Pinnacle Sports Grill. I'm a resident at 5262
North Papago Place, Boise, Idaho. And I appreciate the opportunity to come before the
Council and to state my peace. I was the one who initiated the contact with Mayor de
Weerd and got to Kristy through Mayor de Weerd. I just wanted to state that I think, you
know, road signs are a powerful medium to be able to communicate with the public and
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 18 of 53
attract and inform customers. I do think that it, you know, gives us the ability to keep
business in Meridian and also to compete with the national chains that have the, you
know, advertising budgets that mom and pop's local don't have. And I think currently
the sign code as written is very restrictive and not really mainstream and that, you know,
as was mentioned before when cars are going by at 55 miles an hour I don't have an
opportunity to get a message to hardly any of them at that speed. Luckily I see them
back up at the sign there at Ustick and I can take kind of the back of the airplane seat
approach for a little while while they sit stuck there, but I think from my research there is
no scientific data to indicate that really any interval in sign message change has
resulted in traffic safety issues. They have done numerous national studies looking at
intersections before any signs went in and, then, looked at them again after the signs
went in and irregardless of the frequently of the message change, even full motion
video, they found no safety issues correlated with that, you know. So, I think that, you
know, from a, you know, an intuitive sense people would think that people are going to
get distracted and it's going to cause safety issues, but it's certainly not borne out in the
scientific data. I think that the people in animal costumes dancing at the side of the
road with signs and cheerleaders with their, you know, car wash, you know, placards
they put out are certainly more dangerous than a sign 15 feet above the road, even if it
is moving at a rapid pace or even blinking. I do understand that there is maybe some
esthetic concerns and we don't want to make this into a Las Vegas looking environment,
but I think that, you know, perhaps down to a one second increment might be enough to
lend to some enforceability, but also be able to get a message across that's going to be
conducive to the business people being able to communicate with the customers out
there. I think that's my main position on it and if you guys have any questions for me as
a business owner I would be happy to answer them.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. Council, questions?
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: I did have a question and that is at your location on Eagle Road what would
you run your sign intervals at? Would you be two seconds? Is one second awfully
quick? Is it three seconds? What in your experience would you do?
Fremgen: You know, one second sometime you will flash -- I flash, you know, Monday
Night Football, boom, boom, boom and that -- anything less than one second would be
like kind of odd, like Monday -- Night -- Football and people are like what is that, you
know. You really -- in order to get that message to look seamless you really need to
have an increment fairly small. I think, you know, getting sub one. second it can give the
appearance of a flashing or a strobing, but that's been my experience. You know, I did
try to try eight seconds and it was -- it was -- and I think if you look at most of the signs
it's largely ignored. I think three and four seconds is probably what's going on in most
cases. I think down to a second would really give you the ability to -- to be able to
communicate fairly effectively.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 19 of 53
Fremgen: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Hoaglun: The other person signed up Tony Meade. Welcome, Tony. If you will give
your name and address for the record, please.
Meade: Thank you. My name is Tony Meade. I am with Idaho Electric Signs and I
reside at 1812 Lotus Ponds Court in Nampa, Idaho.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
Meade: I think what the city and, you know, Kristy has done with this sign code is really
good. The eight -- basically, what the eight second standard that most of the cities have
are basically designed for billboards. When they started going to the electronic
billboards they did not want in many of the cities all of the different advertising -- you
know, moving too fast, but the on-premise signs mainly are, kind of like Bill said, if you
do not get these advertising down into a one or two second interval you're -- number
one, you have to have at least two to three seconds to be safely -- see the
advertisement and act on it. If you're far enough down the road you can see the ad and
read it and understand it, then, you can safety react to it, make a turn, do whatever you
need to do. Otherwise if you have this long thing that you cannot get through it
completely ruins the advertising and that's more where safety is an issue than it is with,
you know, one or two second intervals changing your copy and that's about where I
stand. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Tony. You raise an issue that brought a question to my mind.
What size does a sign have to be before it becomes a billboard?
Meade: It's an off-premise sign.
Hoaglun: Okay. A billboard is off premise it's not based necessarily on size?
Meade: Exactly. Yeah.
Hoaglun: Okay. Council, any other questions?
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: Great, Tony. Thank you very much.
Meade: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Appreciate it. Kristy, any follow up from the testimony we heard?
Vigil: I think that what Mr. Fremgen was saying about having a lower second interval is
more of -- on the guidelines of what I was hoping we could have discussion about. The
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January 22, 2013
Page 20 of 53
committee just didn't know exactly where -- what number to come up with and so we
wanted to bring this discussion before the Commission and Council to see where this
would go and instead of striking the language completely I think that having a lower
second interval would be in the best interest of the city.
Hoaglun: Council, thoughts?
Rountree: I don't have a bit of problem with that low frequency level as far as
changeable message. The thing that concerns me is -- and the sign I'm thinking about it
was fireworks learn that wasn't a message. It was bolts of lightning, if you will, and multi
colors and stars and stuff flashing all over this changeable message sign. There was
no message there and to me that's not advertising, that was just -- we got a neat sign
and we can make it do all kinds of fun stuff and I don't know how you get around that
versus advertising a product or your company or whatever. The message itself can go
by as fast as it wants to go by. I don't have a problem with that one second. I think the
language you have got up here would allow any speed more frequently than eight
seconds. To me a second is included in that statement. So, the statement is really kind
of -- to me it's not an ordinance, it's a -- it's a limit if you will. But it doesn't say you can't
go more than eight seconds, but it doesn't say you have to do eight seconds. It doesn't
mean you can't do a half a second. So, if you're looking for a line in the sand, if a
second is the line for text and a message, I'm okay with that. But if it's just a light show
to me that's very distracting as a driver, because I'm looking for a message if I see a list
advertising. I mean I want -- I frequent Pinnacles and I want to make sure that tonight's
the night I want to be there. Not stars and dashes and bolts of lightning and whatever
as I'm going down the street that in my rearview mirror or at a distance looks like an
accident.
Nary: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Yeah. Mr. President, Member of the Council, Council Member Rountree, I guess
the only distinction I guess from a legal prospective we need to draw is court -- courts
are going to -- we are going to wrestle with courts over -- if we could separate between
text and, essentially, everything else, because the problem we will have -- and I totally
understand from a very practical standpoint what you're saying makes perfect sense,
but I understand there will be businesses that say their color or their logo or their symbol
are their advertising and that's what they want to be able to display. So -- and I -- and
courts are going to -- are going to probably side with that to some degree, McDonald's
arches and there is certainly lots of symbols that we know are more symbols than text.
But -- but from a practical standpoint from an ordinance and enforcement, if we -- if we
distinguish that text can be done at a certain rate and the others would be done at a
different rate, because of what you're saying there is some safety readable text at a
certain speed or a certain distance over certain type of roadways, readable text requires
some period of time between the text, whether it's one or two seconds, versus eight,
can kind of make some sense and I think that's what we are talking about. I think if you
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 21 of 53
want to limit the numbers of color symbols, other things, to longer periods of time,
because it isn't text, you know, like the gentleman that spoke and said if I'm trying to put
up Monday Night Football and I have a very limited space, having even a four or five
second delay between them seems very odd or disjointed. But having a four or five
second display between symbols and colors and such may not be quite the same. That
might be I guess a better dividing line from an enforcement standpoint between text and
everything else. Right now our ordinance lumps them all together. We have graphics,
letters, numbers, colors, brightness, all of it are the same. If you want to separate text
out and allow text at a faster rate to allow the messages to be done at a rate that's a
more reasonable rate, but the other things -- because we are trying to balance the -- like
you said, the flashing, the distraction, the appearance that it's something other than a
sign and it might be something else, we are trying to limit that to some degree, then, at
least that's something that's a little bit clearer to explain to a court why text is allowed at
a two to four second interval and everything else is at a four to six to eight second
interval, whatever that is.
Rountree: Makes it more complicated.
Nary: That's why we are here.
Rountree: It tougher for Jamie and John.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I just -- I, too, have served on some of the earlier sign committees and I have
-- we had a number of discussions about esthetics, as well as safety. The movable
signs, of course, are the modern replacement for the old one where you went out with a
suction cup on a long pole and changed one letter at a time and the sign probably
changed once a week if that. The modern improvement on that is fine, except that as
you get business after business after business on a street with these changeable signs
it does begin to look like Las Vegas or the bad example people give is Van Nuys,
California, where you can drive down the street and not be able to pick out a traffic
signal from the pile of signs that are changing colors and in that manner they are
distracting. You can't find the traffic signals from among the other things that are going
on. If I remember the original sign ordinance, it was far more restrictive than we even
are now. It was something like nothing could change for ten seconds. Not color, not
text, not graphics, it had to be static for ten seconds, if I'm remember that correctly. So,
we have gone a long way in saying, okay, there may be other things that could be
changed, we moved it down to eight seconds. I do feel there needs to be a target time
in there that is timeable and enforceable. If that were five seconds that -- that would
probably satisfy me. Going any faster than that when you think of a series of sign -- we
have also enlarged. I think the original ordinance only allowed it to be 15 percent of the
size of the sign, now I think we are up to 25 or something like that. The question is the
image and I do understand the importance of the signs. Many years ago I read statistic
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January 22, 2013
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that said something like a motoring public needs to see a business sign 15 times before
they even recognize that they ever saw the sign and 25 times before they can pick out
where the location was that they saw it. So, the sign is important to a business for
having people identify where it is. It's -- it's the advertising that's on the site. It's the
advertising that gets people to know where this business is. Any other form of
advertising you have to explain where the business is. So, I know how important that
on-site signs are to the business. I weigh that against the business's ability not just to
have their sign with their name on it out there, but to be able to put up menus and
events have a message that -- that needs to have all those changes in it and I just think
if you think of what could be collected up and down a street, whereas you know, if it
were only one sign on the street, then, we probably could get by with no rules, but we
are talking about the whole environment of signage that could be on many buildings in a
row and I just think we need to stick with not so frequent a change on any one sign,
because they are all changing all that frequency. I believe there is a safety issue to it
and there definitely is an esthetic issue to it. So, I could see saying no more frequently
than five seconds, but I'm not sure I would want to go any shorter than that.
Hoaglun: But, Councilman Zaremba, I see a problem with it. It depends on the speed.
If you're on the freeway going 65 miles an hour, five seconds and I want to see that
second half of the message, so I'm turning around, because I didn't see the second
sentence of that, am I creating a hazard, especially if I turn the wheel when I turn, but I
remember that from driver's training.
Zaremba: Uh-huh.
Hoaglun: But -- yeah, turn the wheel when you turn your head.
Zaremba: My response is the message shouldn't be that long.
Hoaglun: But, you know, if I'm able to go down Eagle Road 55 -- haven't been able to
do that for awhile, but if I want to see if Pinnacle has their finger steaks on special
tonight, I want to know that and not get past that before -- but I don't want to create a
code that says, well, if it's a 35 mile an hour speed zone and your sign can go this fast
and if it's 55 -- that gets too complicated. You know, I think we need to set one standard
and I'm a little more open to it. I think a one second sign interval is fine for a text. As
Councilman Rountree kind of pointed out, these other factors that come into play with
the flashing lights and especially another sign I'm thinking on our freeway and I was
thinking it's asign -- it's a billboard size sign, that with everything going can -- you can
have quite a distraction with the complexity of it. It's pretty unique, so -- but for text
changes a second interval, we have a standard, it works. Monday Night Football here,
boom, boom, boom, totally what I needed to know. So -- but I understand the --
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 23 of 53
Zaremba: Well, for the issue of the graphics, which, essentially, as Councilman
Rountree said, don't send a usable message, other than just to distract you and make
you look, I would say they should be subject to a time as well.
Rountree: Bill and Kristy, work with me on this. I'm thinking that the language is to
allow changeable copy signs to change as frequently as one second or more. Any
changeable copy sign displaying graphics and, then, cite those other places in the
ordinance that talks about dazzling and whatever, are not allowed. So, at least the
person who has a changeable message sign gets the message that text down to a
second -- if I want to do something else to celebrate the Fourth of July or, you know,
have stars or bars or whatever on there, it's going to be a little longer than a second.
But it's not going to pulse out there at you. That's the difficulty with the ordinance is you
set a time here and, then, someplace else it tells you you can't do it. If you're not going
to be able to do something, at least it all ought to be together where you can read it
together.
Hoaglun: Kristy, are we helping you any or is it making it more difficult?
Rountree: She's having a great time.
Hoaglun: What questions do you have that we can help clarify here? I think you're
getting a sense of the direction and the discussion, but --
Vigil: Yes, you're helping quite a bit. And, actually, I have the ordinance here with me
and I think we could rework the section to allow text to change more frequently than
graphics or animation or something like that. I don't -- I don't think that we could -- that
would be feasible. I think we could do that if -- if that's the direction that you guys would
like to go. But, yeah, I'm getting a lot of direction from you and I do appreciate it.
Hoaglun: And I think, Councilman Rountree, is animation a word we are looking for in
those types of signs or is that -- are there other things as well? I know what you mean,
but I don't know what we say. I guess that's why we pay the lawyers the big bucks to
come up with those words.
Rountree: That's a problem, we know what we mean and the lawyers interpret it
another way and we get in trouble.
Nary: Judges interpret it a different way.
Bird: Make sure we don't confuse everybody is my main concern is that we get it clear.
Vigil: I agree, Councilman Bird. It's already hard enough and that's -- I like to write it so
anybody can understand it.
Bird: I think you got our -- the gist of the way we want to go on the time, the frequency
and stuff, and what we want -- to be one second or so and I think you can -- with the
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January 22, 2013
Page 24 of 53
help of the legal department rewrite it and bring it back to us.
Vigil: I can.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: Just as a suggestion, many of our ordinances have had a definition section
or glossary at some place and we -- separately from this we could define text and define
animation and graphics -- make maybe animation and graphics as one subject --
Rountree: And dazzling. I want to see that.
Zaremba: Yeah. But we might be able to solve that just by putting it in definitions.
Vigil: Anna made me put the word dazzle in the ordinance. I asked her, no, please, but
it's in state statute, so --
Zaremba: Okay.
Hoaglun: I will have to say, Councilman Zaremba, you threw me a curve ball when you
were talking about that famous place and -- besides Las Vegas. I was expecting Time
Square and, you know, Van Nuys, that was a -- I wasn't ready for that one.
Zaremba: Van Nuys, California?
Hoaglun: Yes.
Zaremba: Try and drive through there sometime. You can't find the signals.
Hoaglun: What -- Kristy or Bill, what -- what's the next step here? Are you going to
work on some language and draft it up and come back to Council, have another public
hearing, or what -- what's our process to follow?
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, so we will bring some different language
back in the -- in the appropriate format for approval. We could put it on for a reading
with public -- with public opportunity to comment. That certainly is not a problem. We
can do that.
Hoaglun: Okay. So, Tony and Bill, you can -- that will be online and you can go
through that and see if that meets what your expectations are and certainly we can go
through that process and any questions be sure to follow up, so -- okay. Kristy,
anything else?
Vigil: So, this -- this does come back for findings before it goes to an ordinance, so
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 25 of 53
findings would be in two weeks. So, you would have findings before you in two weeks.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Vigil: Okay. So, we could have something for you then to review. It wouldn't -- at that
time I don't believe public testimony is taken for findings, because they are on the
Consent Agenda.
Hoaglun: Yeah. But if we do have questions we can follow up with constituents on this
to make sure that there are things -- because this is rather complex --
Vigil: It is.
Hoaglun: -- and I'm no sign expert. I barely learned what a billboard is for sure. It's not
based on the size. So, Councilman Bird, you had a question?
Bird: Yeah. I got -- I got a question. You know, this is kind of -- a thing that public
might want to -- even after we redo it. We could actually hold this public hearing open
and continue it. That would be my preference. Then you guys get your new language
and, then, if the public wants to -- we got it -- we have already got the public hearing
open, we can get testimony or not, whatever they want to do, but at least we do that
and, then, we can have the ordinance right there, too. That would be my preference, to
just continue this.
Rountree: Is that your motion?
Bird: That's my motion.
Hoaglun: Is there a second?
Rountree: Second.
Hoaglun: To leave the public hearing -- we have a motion and a second to continue the
public hearing --
Zaremba: And we need to do that to a date specific, yes.
Hoaglun: To -- and I don't have a January calendar up here.
Bird: How about the 12th? Would that give you time? That's a workshop. Kristy?
Vigil: Yes, Councilman Bird.
Bird: The 12th is a workshop, so the 5th or 19th.
Vigil: Of February?
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 26 of 53
Bird: Yeah.
Vigil: Let's go with the 19th, please.
Bird: Okay. Continued to February 19th.
Hoaglun: And second agrees?
Rountree: Yes.
Hoaglun: So, we have a motion to continue the public hearing until February 19th. All
those in favor, please, say aye. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Hoaglun: So, we will continue the public hearing to February 19th and by then we will
have some language out there for everyone to take a look at and you can comment
further on. So, thanks for being here tonight and appreciate it.
. Request by att Hart of Civil Survey Consultants for Fee
aiver fora ezone Application for the Property Located at
807 eridian Road
Hoaglun: Our next item of business, 8-E, is a request by Matt Hart of Civil Survey
Consultants for a fee waiver for a rezone application for the property located at 807
North Meridian Road. So, is the applicant here to make the request? Welcome.
Hart: Thank you.
Hoaglun: We won't be talking about signs for awhile, so that's good.
Hart: Thank you, Council. My name is Matt Hart. I'm with Civil Survey Consultants
here in Meridian and I reside at 4428 West Campfire Street also here in Meridian.
I'm here representing my client LTD, LLC. We are proposing to rezone a property on
Meridian Road. Actually, just up the street here, 807 North Meridian Road. This project
is adjacent to the Meridian Road split corridor project that's currently under construction
and as part of the right of way negotiations between my client and ACHD -- ACRD had
agreed to help facilitate the rezone of this property from the current zoning R-8 to Old
Town. We have had some preliminary discussions with the -- with the city last year
about this. The city was in agreement that this would be the -- the ideal time to go
ahead and rezone this property. Typically when ACRD is the applicant the city waives
their fees. ACRD decided to have the property owners apply directly for this. There
was some discussion that -- that the fees would still be waived for this, because it was a
direct result of the right of way negotiations for this roadway project. But the waiving of
the fees is something that has to be done by Council and that's why I'm here tonight to
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January 22, 2013
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ask you if you would waive those fees.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Matt. And maybe I should ask staff to -- if they had any
comments first, but I didn't know if you guys were going to weigh in on this or not. But,
Caleb, any comments?
Hood: I would just provide a little bit of the background information. As Matt said, we
did have communications with ACRD somewhere around a year ago. Did tell them that,
yes, we have this agreement and if ACRD applies we can waive fees. I don't know what
has or hasn't transpired since then, but it's my understanding that ACRD is no longer
the applicant in this situation, so we have directed them to come to you to ask for that
waiver. Back when we talked to them about a year ago there were I think three
properties that we actually talked about ACRD rezoning them appropriately to Old Town
and which we envisioned supporting those applications, but it does take staff time and
other resources to go through this process and with it not being an agency, it being a
private process to get this rezone, we wanted to come back to the Council to see if it's
appropriate to waive the fees, so, again, that's some of the background of why we are
here today. I wish you would have just taken care of it about a year ago and we
wouldn't be having this discussion. But the circumstances have changed and I don't
think it was part of that negotiation of the right of way or I believe that ACHD would be
here, but he testified I guess that that was part of the negotiation, just never followed
through. So, I don't have anything else to add, but I just wanted a little bit of that
background -- you to be aware of that and there may be at least a couple of other
property owners where we run into the same situation in the -- in the near future.
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba?
Zaremba: I guess I'm not remembering correctly. I thought the Old Town designation
already went farther west than apparently it does. I thought it went at least to East 1st --
or West 1st Street, if not to West 3rd in some places. Does it end at Meridian Road?
Hood: Mr. President, Councilman Zaremba, the future land use map designation for
Old Town does continue further to the west. It's not currently zoned Old Town, though.
It's -- it's R-8 right now.
Zaremba: So, that would bring up my next question then would be if there are several
properties would we want to make the city the applicant and make that whole area Old
Town. It would include this property automatically. Should we just go ahead and do
that?
Hood: Mr. President, Councilman Zaremba, typically we like to have consent of the
underlying property owners. We do typically encourage folks, you know, to come in
together, you can share costs and it's more efficient to rezone blocks at a time. We
have tried in the past -- it's probably been about ten years now -- to rezone most all of
downtown and we ran into some resistance. I think the biggest complaint that we have
is folks that are concerned about their taxes going up. They have no plans immediately
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
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to redevelop, but an R-4 or an R-8 designation, the assessor doesn't look at your -- your
taxes being the same if you got an Old Town designation, now you're potentially
commercial. So, that's some of the concern we get from property owners when we try
to initiate something. Again, I think we could support this. We haven't done all the staff
analysis yet, but it is something that's generally consistent with the comp plan. I wish
we had a systematic way where we could initiate something and bring that to you and
be the applicant, but it would be pretty time intensive to go and work with each property
owner, knock on their door, get their consent to the application and that's typically how it
works. So, it's not impossible, but it's probably easier to just take five or ten minutes
and see if it's better to waive the fee or have them pay. But I'd like to group some of
these together. Unfortunately they are not contiguous either. Because we have got one
here and we have got one up near Cherry Lane. So, you're really having to write two
staff reports anyways, because they don't have a lot in common, other than they have
got Meridian Road frontage.
Zaremba: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Caleb. I'd like to have Justin from Ada County Highway District
come up and kind of give us your side of the story, what happened here, so we can put
pieces together and, Matt, hang close. Probably front row seat is best.
Lucas: Good evening, Councilmen and President Hoaglun. Justin Lucas, Ada County
Highway District. Business address 3775 Adams Street, Garden City, Idaho. I will do
my best to add what I can here. I'm not the project manager on this specific project, nor
am I a right-of-way agent, but that doesn't mean I can't speak to this stuff. You know
me, I will talk to when I have an opportunity. ACHD, through right of way negotiations,
talks about a lot of things to a lot of different people. In the end what really matters is
who owns the property and who is the applicant in this situation. If it was ACRD and we
owned the property we wouldn't be having this discussion, because it would be a -- we
have an agreement that these fees aren't paid. We don't pay you, you don't pay us for
this type of stuff. If the property owner in this situation is retaining ownership of this
parcel ACRD really has no ability to come to you and tell you what to do with your
application fees and all that -- and those types of things and so in this instance it really
comes down to your decision on what you'd like to do. Does it make sense as part of
your process and is there a major road project happening here? Absolutely there is.
We shouldn't take that out of it. It's a big project, it has a lot of impacts, but how that
affects your decision on application fees that's really up to you and not the highway
district.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Justin. Yeah. So -- and, of course, the reason why we do that we
are just trading taxpayer dollars back and forth.
Lucas: Exactly.
Hoaglun: There is no sense in doing that.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 29 of 53
Lucas: Exactly.
Hoaglun: We can serve each other and go about our business and be efficient as
possible, so -- but as you suggest, since you guys aren't the property owner, you know,
the taxpayers now pay for that cost to rezone when it's not a public entity, but a private
party that -- that does that, so -- any question for Justin while he's up here.
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: Great. Thank you. Appreciate it. Matt, I have a question for you. What's --
are you in a big hurry to get this done? Is this something that you want to have done as
quickly as possible? You have plans for this property? Do you have time for us to kind
of explore some of these other properties and maybe putting something together that
we can do a bunch at one time? Can you give me an idea what your plans are?
Hart: I know my client is eager to move ahead with this. Currently it was an older
residential home, but they have been leasing it out now for several years. They have
told me that they do want to continue to lease it out, but the way it's been used now it's
noncompliant for the zoning. You know, as part of the roadway project that's coming
through, that's what prompted them to want to move ahead now. You know, I guess
listening to discussions here tonight, you know, there is a possibility that it could be
included in something else. I think that's something they may be willing to entertain, but
know they are -- they are eager to have it rezoned and become compliant, so they can
continue to lease it out.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. That does help.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: I -- I wouldn't be in favor of forcing any of the other properties owners into
changing at this time. If they want to that would be great, but I would feel comfortable
enacting on this single request. This is an owner that wants to take care of it and he's
brought forward the application, so we just need to figure if we want to waive the fee.
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: My concern with this application and request if we do this we need to do
them all. And I don't know how many all of them constitutes, so I don't see a particular
hardship. We were not part of the negotiations. Whatever ACRD told the owner, the
city was not a part of. I know it's the future -- the zoning indicates Old Town. But that's
future zoning. That would come as the property either changes ownership or changes
function. Apparently its function has changed to be consistent with what is allowed in
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 30 of 53
Old Town, but not can consistent with an R-8. I don't know if there -- if there has been
any issues from an enforcement standpoint on that with either code enforcement or any
discussion with community development, but I'm -- I'm hesitant with this application,
because Idon't -- I don't see any end to it.
Hoaglun: Is there away -- and this is just off the top of my head. It might be a bad
idea. But, you know, is there a way that we could survey property owners and say the
city is going to move forward with a rezone at no cost, low cost, if we do it in bulk and if
you miss that window for a rezone, then, in the future there is no waiver of fees? I
mean I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but that might be an option to give folks
an opportunity for cone -- one time amnesty from fees, even though it's not amnesty,
but a fee waiver or just an application fee, a low fee, but we may not have that in our
ordinance, so we might not be able to do that, but just a fee waiver for a group
application for all of those owners who want to go in to a new zoning, Old Town, and
those who don't take advantage of it at this time, then, it's -- it's full freight from then on.
I don't know if that's an option or not. Haven't had really time to think about it. Like I
said, it's just off the top of my head.
Rountree: Caleb, want to --
Hood: Mr. President? It certainly something that we can do and, in fact, it wouldn't
even need to come back to you for a waiver of fees. I mean staff could be the applicant
on that. The problematic thing with that is if -- somebody has got to pay for a survey of
the property and so we can waive our all fees, but we are going to need a legal
description of each and every one of these properties, which drives the cost up and I
don't know that we want to take the next step. Certainly we want to encourage folks
and do what we can to get them to an Old Town zoning, but having the city apply and it
not be a nice block where you can have -- draw anice --apiece here and you go with
three parcels and one there, (just -- it's something we could look at and, again, I'm not
-- the fee waiver thing we could be the applicant, but there is some other hoops to jump
through that won't -- that wouldn't be as easy to make it happen.
Hoaglun: So, we are talking, Caleb, hard costs versus soft. If the property -- the
applicant property owner pays the hard costs, has to provide the survey, I don't know
what other costs there would be -- hard costs that they would have to bring forward, but
any soft costs, application fees, any fees that the city charges would be waived if they
come forward and that's an option we could do on any of them on any fee waiver
request, but --
Hood: Yeah. Mr. President, I think that is the only hard cost for each individual property
owner that would want to participate. That's really all we need. That and an affidavit
saying they are going to give us this application. There is no cost associated with that,
just a signature from the property owner. We could look at doing that and opening it up
to, basically, everything that we have shown as Old Town or do we want to just do it on
Meridian Road -- you know, properties with Meridian Road frontage? I'm not quite sure
-- I mean we could send a letter to all those folks that people -- in whatever geographic
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January 22, 2013
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area you want to describe and say you can do this alone, do this for you, give us a letter
and a survey by July 1st or whatever.
Hoaglun: And, then, my thinking on that it's everyone who is impacted by Meridian
Road -- who has frontage on Meridian Road that's been impacted by the widening is --
would be eligible for this process. This one time process. But -- and there is a time
frame to that and that gets back to my question to Matt, because the time frame to
prepare the letter, send out the letter, get things in, do the staff work, bring the
application forward, you know, but if it's worth the cost, it might be worth the wait.
That's --
Hood: If I can just add one more thing, because there is a -- that -- I don't think he's
going to wait, because I think July would probably be -- you know, you have to give folks
four or five months to hire a surveyor if they are interested in doing this you got to give
them some time. Again, I'm only aware of one, maybe two more properties that are in a
similar situation as Matt and his client. But we talked to ACRD back in the day and it
was -- at least we know that. the right of way agent talked to the property owner about
this. Nothing was ever negotiated out in the right of way acquisition, but it was at least
talked about. So, I don't know if we open it up to everybody -- you know, we can go the
direction to open it up to everybody, but I don't think we will have multiple -- more
people coming back to you for fee a waiver request, because we have a record of --
again, (believe it's three specific properties where ACHD brought this up.
Hoaglun: And that might be the way to go about it. It would speed up the process and
we could confirm with ACRD if there were any other properties, but to those three
saying, yes, we had those discussions with them, it didn't come about, but because of
those discussions and the changes in the property and that's -- that's the basis for -- for
the reason why these folks would be eligible for a fee waiver as opposed to not having a
fee waiver and I'd ask our attorney Mr. Nary is that a good basis for a reason if
someone comes before us, if we gave these folks a fee waiver, the fact that ACHD --
they were negotiating a fee waiver with ACRD that didn't come about, but because of
those discussions we move forward. Is that --
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, certainly (think -- I mean I think it's at
least a reason that, you know, has some basis in reality to -- for the Council to grant
that, so I mean I certainly think it doesn't open the door to everybody making the same
argument. You know, I do think you're almost looking at basing your discussion on kind
of a two-step thing. You're looking at really the here and now with this individual
application, but also a process that could actually incorporate others that didn't have
those conversations and so I do think you are trying to be fair to the public at large, as
well as the individuals that had this discussion with ACHD as part of the process.
Hoaglun: More information, Council? Where are we on this?
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 32 of 53
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: Just -- just to express an opinion, I guess. If -- I would kind of fall this way. If
-- if Mr. Hart and his client are willing to let a process go where we try and get more
properties involved and do several of them at once, then, it would be much cheaper. If
they are in a hurry I come down on the side of not waiving the fee and getting it done
right now.
Hoaglun: Matt, you want to comment on that?
Hart: Well, I was party to some of the initial discussions. The way I got involved with
this is I was on the design consultant team for the highway district that designed the
roadway project. As ACHD's right-of-way agent contacted my office, wanted to know --
there was two rezones that we initially met with this city. So, you know, based on my
understanding of the conversation here tonight that it sounds like it's -- you know, those
-- one other party or a possible third party, I can see that being resolved relatively
quickly and I think my client would be willing to wait until, you know, those properties
were considered also in this rezone for the fee waiver for the rezone.
Hoaglun: Okay. Caleb, I need to ask you a question on that. I mean it might be those
other parcels don't want to rezone right now. Is that extra staff time, cost, if they are
taken separately, as opposed to all three doing it at the same time?
Hood: Mr. President, Members of the Council, it probably is a little more staff time, but,
again, if they are not contiguous we have got to basically do an analysis on each site
individually anyways. So, would be in the staff report, but probably about the same
amount of staff time.
Hoaglun: So, we could move forward with a few waiver here with the understanding
that those other parcels that ACRD was in negotiation with would also be treated the
same at that point of their choosing and we move forward with those parcels and that a
good --
Hood: Just as a point of clarification -- and, Bill, if you wouldn't mind listening to this
question. But we need to bring that parcel to -- back before you then to make the same
plea or is that part of -- by granting this fee you're going to grant the fee for that one and
potentially two other folks --
Hoaglun: That's a good question. I hope Bill was paying attention.
Nary: I was. Mr. President, I guess I would be hesitant to say you're one approval now
is, then, a blanket for the others, because, again, we don't understand the
circumstances of those individual parcels and I think that's Caleb's -- really his bottom
line is we don't really know what other folks want or what their interest is. If they want to
live in their existing home for now, for the next ten years, they don't want a rezone and
they don't care. So, I'd hate to really be granting that. I think the Council can certainly
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 33 of 53
put on the record if you want to identify the parcels and say if we grant this one we
would consider this a similar circumstance for whatever identified parcels we are talking
about, but, again, I think your -- if part of your plan is to -- is have planning evaluate a
process for any of these along Meridian Road as part of this split corridor and that we
are looking at this over the next few months and that's an available alternative or option
for folks, it may solve itself, because, again, if you're not interested now you may not be
interested now you may not be interested for the next six months, you may not care.
But I don't want one approval to be a blanket for some others. You want to make sure
it's individually requested.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: Thanks, Bill, for that. I appreciate that. I get back -- the other properties haven't
asked to be rezoned. We don't know -- we don't -- we didn't sit in on the negotiations
with ACRD. Why wasn't this brought a year ago if that was the deal? Did they make
the same thing with the other two properties or not? I'm for just enacting on this,
whether we waive the fee or we don't, and the others can come when they want to -- ~ if
they want to. I'm not for forcing anybody to go to Old Town. And if we are going to wait
and do that, you know, this city has never forced anybody into an annexation or a
zoning change. I don't want to start it.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Councilman Bird. Matt, any last words to wrap up before we let
the Council decide what they want to do?
Hart: No, other than I guess I just want to reiterate that it's my client's understanding
that the -- you know, that the fees would be waived and it is kind of why we proceeded
with this and as far as the rezone application itself, I have completed 90 percent of that
work and, you know, we just found out here, you know, a month ago that the fees may
or may not be waived. You know, my client has already spent, you know, a fairly
significant amount of -- of money and time to complete this, so I'm -- you know, I'm
hoping that, you know, Council does decide to go ahead and waive those fees.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Hart: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Great. Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it. Council, what's your pleasure on this
issue? I guess our options are, Mr. Nary, we can approve, deny, or have staff come
back with -- with an option for other properties or some -- something like that. But
think your discussion and Councilman Bird made a good point about they may not want
to do anything at this time, so --
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 34 of 53
Nary: And the only thing I would add, President Hoaglun, is -- or a combo of some of
that. I mean you can certainly take action on this individual request in front of you, with
the direction to also bring that back. I mean I don't know how far between now and your
workshop in February, for example. Not to put more work on Caleb or planning staff,
but you could have this, again, extended conversation in your February workshop of
saying, again, what would it take, how complicated would it be, what cost would the city
incur if we were to choose to do this, you know, noticing and some of the other things to
do that, to include more to avoid I think partly the concern that Council Member
Rountree raised is if we do it for one are we going to do it for everybody or not and, if
so, what's the standard we are going to apply to that. So, you know, you could deal with
this one particular one or if the applicant is willing to wait for your discussion in three
weeks at your February workshop to say, you know, he will wait and see if it -- if it
seems attractive to his client to wait to consider whatever you decide in three weeks
that's certainly an option for him, if he would prefer you to just make a decision now and
move forward to whatever that is, good or bad, that's certainly his choice, too.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: Caleb, what -- what kind of fees are we looking at dollarwise? Do you have any
idea?
Hood: Mr. President, Councilman Bird, Bill can probably hit it right on the head. It's
right about 2,000 dollars. I think it's 2,057 or something.
Parsons: Two thousand ninety-two.
Hood: Two thousand ninety-two.
Hoaglun: We can't go back to the sign code text amendment to discuss further, so --
know you really want to now.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: Just to clarify a point, I was not suggesting that we forcibly change anybody's
designation. I was more thinking, you know, if we had time we could test the waters
and ask people are they interested and if we got a big response, then, that would help
this applicant. It's sounding to me like even getting that kind of an answer testing the
waters is -- is going to take a while. So, I would see moving this forward and -- I don't
know, but I'm not in favor of waiving the whole fee, but if we suggested a partial I could
be convinced.
Hoaglun: And that -- I might ask Councilman Zaremba, Caleb or Bill, that 2,000 dollars,
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 35 of 53
that does not -- it certainly costs -- the hard costs they still pay for that, so this -- the
2,092 is our fees, our cost, administrative costs, overhead work, that sort of thing, so --
they still have those costs if that was your concern.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: Bill or Caleb, designating from R-8 or R-4 to an Old Town, what kind of percent of
value goes up on the property because it automatically becomes commercial? Do you
have any idea?
Hood: Mr. President, Councilman Bird, I do not. I don't know how the assessor looks at
that. I just know it's some of the concerns that we heard previously from --
Bird: Oh, I know it's a jump.
Hood: But I don't know what percentage or how the assessor actually looks at that.
Parsons: Councilman Bird, I don't have much to add to that point, but something to look
at in your deliberations tonight as -- if you look how the property is developed it does
look like a commercial property. I mean it has a parking lot in the rear. It is currently
R-8. I think Matt brought up a good point, if they wanted to get a tenant in that building,
I mean community development would tell them, no, you can't have a commercial
business in there. Now, if someone could buy it as a residence, do a home occupation
out of that they would be fine, but if they wanted to really convert that residence to an
office or a commercial use, I mean it's going to take working with the community
development department, it's going to take building permits, it's going to take code
analysis of that structure. There is a lot of things -- I mean if the rezone doesn't go
forward it pretty much has to stay a residential property. It can't go to that next level and
my understanding is it's always operated as an office building. I don't know if there is --
if there has ever been any code enforcement issues on there or building department
issues regarding the structure, but I know that was one of the concerns that we talked a
little about when they came and spoke with us about the rezone as well. So, either
you're looking at waiving the fees to get them to a point where they can generate
revenue on that, get some building permit fees and maybe get some higher property
taxes, because they do have someone leasing the space. Just something to think
about.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill.
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Just to move this along, I will offer probably the least popular motion, but I
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 36 of 53
move that we deny the request for Item 8-E.
Bird: Second.
Hoaglun: There is a motion and a second to deny the fee waiver request for the rezone
application. Madam Clerk, would you, please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, nay.
Hoaglun: Three ayes. One nay. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE NAY.
Item 9: Continued Department Reports
Community Development: Community Development lock
rant (C G) PY 012 udget Amendment fora of-o- ceed
mount of $256,727.00
Hoaglun: Thank you, Matt. Appreciate your time. Staff, thank you for your help on this.
We move now to Department Reports, 9-A, CDBG FY-2012 budget amendment.
Caleb, is that you?
Hood: Yes, Mr. President, Members of the Council. I am pinch hitting tonight for Lori.
The CDBG budget amendment is consistent with the amount previously told to us by
HUD in the amount we identified in our program year 2012 action plan. We recently
received the congressional release of the funds at the end of December and the budget
enhancement has been prepared accordingly showing the grant funds as revenue for
the city outlining which entity and activities are receiving funding this year. Again, it's
consistent with the program year for -- for this year in the CDBG program. So, I would
stand for any questions that you may have on this item.
Hoaglun: Council, any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: I have none.
Hoaglun: And this is a budget amendment for a not to exceed amount of 256,727, so
we will need a motion on that.
Bird: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Bird.
Bird: I move we are approve the budget amendment for the not to exceed amount of
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 37 of 53
256,227 dollars.
Rountree: Second.
Hoaglun: I have a motion and a second to approve the budget amendment. Madam
Clerk, would you, please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
Hoaglun: Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Community evelopment: eridin Interchange esin
laments - i cuss a Potential Theme for the New Meridian
Interchange, as well s icycle and Pedestrian Facilities,
Lighting Option ,Landscaping Improvements and Other
Aesthetic Elements
Hoaglun: Item 9-B Community Development. Caleb, I'm guessing?
Hood: Mr. President, Members of the Council, yes, me, but just briefly, because the
real star of this show is going to be Brian here in just a second, but let me tee it up for
him a little bit. We are here to talk to you about what he's been primarily been working
on over the past month or so with the help of members of the Meridian Interchange
Task Force, the Meridian Arts Commission -- who else have we met with recently?
Staff -- internal staff and Public Works and Parks and so we have got a concept that we
would like to present to you tonight and get your feedback on as you move forward. I
have just a couple of quick updates on some of the design elements that have been
moving forward. We are looking -- working with ITD, their consultants, Parametrics
actually attended our Interchange Task Force meeting and have been working on how
the multi-use pathway that's in the city's pathway network plan will be incorporated into
this bridge, looking at some of the impacts with adjacent properties. We are looking at
getting that ten foot wide multi-use pathway -- at least one side of this structure going
across I-84. We also met at our last meeting and discussed the public outreach
process, so it's not going to be a -- a full boat public input process for this, they are
going to do something scaled back and have like an SAQ, a brochure, something like
that that they will -- they will pass out. They will do some targeted stakeholder
involvement on this project and what we primarily look at asking for feedback is some of
what Brian is going to present to you here in just a minute. The project website is up
and running right now, subsequent to ITD's website and went to District Three projects
and the GARVEE program, you can find this -- this project. Not a whole lot of
information there right now, but there is at least the project website on ITD's website.
Parametrics by now should have all the geo-technical information they need to -- to
really begin design. They were getting traffic counts and doing some analysis for the
lane configuration and really hit the ground running with some of that design work.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 38 of 53
Again, tonight we are really here to talk to you a little bit about a concept or a theme for
the interchange. And, then, kind of the game plan is in about three weeks hopefully you
can fine tune what Brian is presenting you tonight. ITD has asked that they -- that any
of our -- our needs, our wishes, our wants for this be handed off to them no later than
the end of February, the first of March. They haven't given us an actual date, but -- but
we are looking at six weeks or so. So, my goal is to come back to that -- your workshop
in February, present you a final concept that we can, then, turn over to ITD and ask
them to -- to design this part of this interchange project. So, with that in mind I'm going
to go ahead and turn it over to Brian, if that's okay, unless you have any questions of
me and at the end Tim Curns is going to talk about lights for just a little bit as well.
Hoaglun: Well, Brian, why don't you proceed as long as there is no dazzling lights
billboards on this interchange. Okay. Go ahead.
McClure: Thank you, Caleb, Members of the Council as Caleb mentioned, I'm just kind
of going through some of the concepts that we discussed at these various groups.
What you see here is the concept for facing the bridge as you're driving down the
interchange and that is a regional landscape. Before I go too far into this I just want to
say that a lot of the concepts and things and suggestions that you see here tonight are
the result of communications and suggestions by a lot of other people as well, so as
much as, you know, a lot of other people that have been involved with this, so I just
want to credit where credit is due and so what you see here is Birds of Prey, Snake
River basalts, some of the regional highlights we can kind of talk up and try to stress. In
terms of the concept on the bridge, we are going for more of a downtown connection
taking some of the elements that we like in our split corridor phase one, except this is a
monument there, various streetscape designs and some of the island features we had
and taking those in the bridge as well. What you see here is a landscape concept plan
for the entire interchange. One note here is that this is not the final bridge, there is a lot
of design work that has to be done, things are going to change, size and design and
there is going to be a lot of variation here, but this was the concept that we were given
and so this is what I based the concept on. You know, some of those islands you see
there might shrink, the bridge might narrow, but conceptually this is the design we are
looking for. I guess also to reinforce this, this is a very baseline design. This is what we
see as a bare minimum. We don't want to see anything less than this. It's addressed
here to provide enough context and interest, projectwide to be appealing -- to be
appealing. We don't want to just cram all the improvements in one little area and, then,
kind of surround it with blah. I think this is an important point to make. It's really just
stretching the whole thing, not just one small aspect of it. On most of these slides
have here tonight there is -- there is small pictures kind of indicating some of the
elements conceptually that we like to see. If you have any questions at anytime feel
free to interrupt. What you're seeing on this slide here is something I mentioned to you
last time I presented to you and, basically, this is that we are looking for an engineered
structure here, we are looking for something that has some contours and forms and
organic fills. So, just because you can design a ditch and a square retention basin, it
doesn't mean it has to actually be designed in a square, you can actually provide some
-- some arching curves and some more kind of natural feel you have seen in a real
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 39 of 53
landscape. It doesn't have to just be value engineering. So, we are looking for some of
those kinds of enhancements here that really don't cost unless we want it for value
visually.
Hoaglun: And, Brian, I will just interject. I think that's a great idea. It's a lot more
interesting.
McClure: Thank you. What you see on this slide here are some of the potential
upgrades per se to the baseline level. Potentially seeing some better scene mix,
providing some stamped concrete and some of this kind of half circular, quote, dead
zones you see on the middle of that interchange there where there is no cars traversing
and providing more landscaping in the open areas, some potential rock formations.
Really just kind of opportunities for -- to improve things, depending on what the budget
and our participation allows. What you see here on this slide is a conceptual baseline
elevation of the interchange. We are continuing some of those basalts kind of columnar
feelings and the form line are there and really looking at kind of a traditional ITD
standard pedestrian barrier extension on the bridge deck itself to talk about it.
Hoaglun: So, Brian, on that fencing, if we wanted something fancier that would come
out of our pocket? We don't know? They might have some variations that are within
the cost possibly.
McClure: That's -- as far as I understand it that's not defined. We don't know.
Hoaglun: Okay.
McClure: Here is some potential upgrades for that baseline. What you see here is an
additional form liner on the left side there, trying to stretch this a little bit more. And,
then, one concept is for artwork to be attached to the barrier itself. This would be an
example of the mountains tying into the foothills or, you know, it could be a lot of things,
clouds, something completely random. I believe we can potentially be looking at some
public involvement on that -- on that point. And, then, this year is one more potential
upgrade and it doesn't necessarily have to be what you see here, but some form of
special form line that indicates -- similar to what we have in Ten Mile with the walking
people. Just an identifier on the actual bridge wall. This one here represents Idaho and
more specifically where we get our name sake, the primary meridian. One note here --
and (believe you had some examples in your packet, but one comment that's been
made numerous times is trying to integrate the railing you see on the barrier there and
make it a little bit fancier. I simply haven't come up with any good ideas, but there is
probably a lot of ways to end the barrier rail there and make it a lot nicer. Again, there
were some examples in your packet. And this is just a very simple example here of
some color variation. Certainly you could do something considerably more wild. Lastly
here for my part just an additional consideration, so whether you want to integrate, for
example, some of the stone you see on the lining out there, you see the pedestrian
barrier of the bridge, what you see on the inside, additional rocks, different metal work,
there is certainly a lot of opportunities still to provide more connection between the
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 40 of 53
bridge and downtown, if you have any suggestions. That's really kind of it, too. If you
guys have any comments or considerations or thoughts or do this, don't do that, I would
be happy to take any of that.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Brian.
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Brian, I think you're doing a great job of pulling in the comments that I heard
and offered the last meeting I attended and pulled it together into something of
substance and it is very workable and a good portion of it probably can move forward
with -- and I think it would be an excellent job of portraying one way of tying the
interchange in Meridian into where we came from and more of the desert biome that we
live and we are the gateway into the -- not only downtown Meridian, but we are the
gateway into a national Birds of Prey area. So, there is features here and a lot of
features here that could go forward and I thank you for your time and look forward to
seeing what the next portion comes up with these ideas.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Councilman Rountree.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I, too, like the way this is going and what it developed. I was in on some of
your early discussions about this and I think you have summed it all up pretty well and
brought it to a good thing. One question. In one of the meetings there was some
discussion about, you know, you trying to put the Meridian logo either on the fence or on
the side of the bridge deck and I remember there was some comment about that, but --
Rountree: It's there.
Zaremba: Where is it? No. I mean the word Meridian, like -- like -- yeah, not just the
star and the swoosh, but the word Meridian.
Hood: Mr. President and Council Members --
Zaremba: Like it is on our letterhead. I remember there was some discussion, but I
forget how that went.
Hood: We discussed text and the concern there is what you see from the opposite side
and it looks like we have Meridian backwards and not be able to read it from the other
side -- would be kind of our concern with actually having text.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 41 of 53
Zaremba: I do recall that. Thank you.
Hood: Now, I will just add -- I mean the medallion Meridian symbol you see there could
be the city's logo. I mean if you wanted to brand it -- it doesn't really fit in with the theme
of the interchange, but you could, essentially, you know, have one that is the city logo
and put City of Meridian on there if that's what you so choose. I mean that's -- that --
you could probably still make it out at that scale. It's about four by four I think are the
form liners, so four feet by four feet, it doesn't make it all that large, especially at 65, 70
miles an hour, but that would -- could be an option. I don't know that I would advocate
for that, but it could be an option.
Hoaglun: And whatever it is it would be on all four sides; correct? I like the direction
this is going. I think the concept -- you're on the right track and I think as you have more
meetings and kind of delve into some of the details we can follow up on that and I think,
Tim, did you have some comments on the lighting?
Curns: Yes, Council President, Members of the Council, just a quick note on lighting.
kind of pulled this from my memory of a few years ago when we had a discussion here
at Council about the lighting at Ten Mile interchange and I remember specifically that
the high mast lighting, which you see in the middle there, the very tall pole, was not --
didn't sound like that was something that people are really happy about at the Ten Mile
interchange. I kind of let ITD know that that was a previous conversation and so it was
something we probably ought to talk about. I knew that they consider this to be part of
their baseline for lighting the interchange. I don't know that I would agree that that's
appropriate in this location to have that much light that high up, especially since we
have hotels very close to the interchange, we are kind of throwing a lot of light in a lot of
different directions. One possibility here I think is to simply have the lighting that you
see on the left side here or that style of pole, which is also very common to ITD projects
and ACHD projects, which is just a mast arm pole on the interchange deck and the
approaches to it and that may or may not end up being something that ITD considers.
An upgrade I consider kind of a baseline. I think they are going to end up having a lot of
these on there anyways, but I suppose one of the possibilities in addition to that would
be with the pathway extensions down to the interchange whether or not as part of the
scene that you see in the first phase of the split corridor if we would want to continue the
historic lighting with the pathway down to the interchange. 1 definitely wouldn't
recommend trying to do this direct lighting on the interchange, just because of those
lantern style fixtures really throw light, which isn't really something you want to do in a
location where people are trying to perform complex maneuvers at the ramps and
whatnot. But certainly leading up to it on the path I could see that being an addition that
might look nice with this project. So, I just kind of wanted to throw those things out
there and see if you all had any comments regarding lighting.
Hoaglun: Council, any comments on lighting? We like lighting. Okay.
Zaremba: I'm all for it.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
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Hoaglun: I prefer the shoe box on the interchange itself. Part of the problem on Ten
Mile I heard from a few folks in those homes that were on that hill is here you have the
interchange and now they still have the view of the mountains and now those massive
masts are up there right -- right there, you know, just one of things that they had to deal
with, but -- yeah. Historic lighting could be used down lower, certainly I think you're
right, Tim, not up high, but a shoe box I think would be appropriate for the lights, where
ever it needs to go.
Curns: And, Councilman Hoaglun, one other thing, too, that we might consider if you
guys like the idea that is out there right now, we have LED lighting that we have put up
on the existing poles, we did the whole corridor with the energy efficiency grant, and so
some of those fixtures could be reused and we would just have to supply a few
additional of those if we wanted to put -- you know, have the LED lighting remain in that
corridor when it's done. It's not something that would end up really costing us much
extra. I'm not talking about a lot of fixtures, so --
Hoaglun: Between what we have -- and I like that idea and, then, what we have out
there that can be reused and, plus, the additional that we add to that, do we get credit
for that amount of money going to the project? I mean it makes sense to me.
Curns: That's a good question. I know with ACRD projects, you know, whatever we
want above the baseline we get credit for, you know, what would have been spent
before that. I'm not sure what -- how that works in this case with an ITD project.
Hoaglun: Something to kind of look into, keep in mind, see if we can finagle. I did have
one other question. It's not related to lighting, but it's just that type of interchange, just
because my -- now that I have used the Ten Mile Interchange enough that's my main
access to the freeway to work. There have been times where the two lanes turning left
to get onto the freeway heading east are full and we are backing up into the left lane
down Ten Mile Road. Is there a load capacity on this type of interchange, the -- what's
the name of this?
Curns: SPUI.
Hoaglun: SPUI. Thank you. Yeah. Is that something you guys know off the top of your
head, yeah, once you hit 50,000 cars a day it's -- it's not adequate?
Curns: Councilman Hoaglun, with these SPUIs -- or let me -- with any interchange it's a
matter of -- you can accommodate very large volumes of vehicles, it's really about how
many turn lanes and through lanes you include in this and I know that we -- we met with
-- if I can get this right -- CIP? Is that the correct folks -- just a week ago or so and
talked a little bit about capacity with this interchange and it was analyzed during the
corridor study and as part of the new task order for this design they are looking again
with current numbers and the new future 20 year horizon volumes to make sure that
they get the lane configurations correct, so that it can handle the traffic now and the
traffic 20 years from now.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 43 of 53
Hoaglun: Because that -- the Ten Mile interchange -- you know, when that starts
building out there is going to be even more traffic on it. I mean we are nowhere near full
capacity on that thing and there is already during rush hour periods -- it's already -- if
you want you would have to lengthen the two lanes. I know when they redid the Eagle
Interchange they ended up having to expand that onramp as you're coming onto Eagle
Road. I mean they just needed a single lane and had to come back and redo it and that
only happened within a -- within two years. So, I just want to think far enough ahead
that we have -- we put in sufficient capacity so we aren't having to do that within two
years. I mean this is going to be a big project, there is going to be a lot of delays, kind
of like the Meridian Road project, but we want to -- want it to last awhile, so --
Curns: And, Councilman Hoaglun, I don't know for sure, but my guess is with the timing
of Ten -- when Ten Mile interchange came along that it was most likely -- the
configuration was based off of the best number they had at that time, which are much
different than the numbers we have now for projections and also when we did have our
meeting last week we were promised to get that design assumption information as soon
as they had it available for us to kind of show us that, you know, that they analyzed that.
Hoaglun: Good. I'm glad to hear that, because it is a concern and, hopefully, my
concerns are -- aren't warranted, but if you guys can pay attention to that, that's
something I think is really critical, so -- a little off, it's on the interchange, not about
lighting, but just something I have noticed on Ten Mile that had me concerned about this
one because of the load that it carries now and will in the future, so something to
consider.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes, Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would like to add to your comment on that and I realize it's not on lighting,
but you mentioned they are looking at a 20 year design horizon. I assume they are
intending this bridge to last something like 50 years. I would encourage them to think
about what the 50 year design ought to be, because if they are not going to change the
bridge for 50 years it needs to be able to handle the 50 years capacity, not just the 20
year capacity. I know that's not your responsibility, but if you would pass that along to
them I would appreciate it.
Curns: Certainly will, Councilman Zaremba. And although we don't -- I don't believe we
have projections that go out that far, I know there have been conversations in general at
COMPASS about looking much farther out for these kinds of things. I have a feeling
that the configuration they will end up with this is kind of going to be as far as you can
push it with it still being feasible in order to move traffic.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 44 of 53
Hoaglun: All right. Thank you, Councilman. Okay. I think we can move on to Public
Works, Franklin Road, Ten Mile to Linder project. Kyle, are you going to be talking
about that one?
Radek: Mr. President, yes, sir. Mr. President, Council Members, this -- this item is just
an award of bid, much as we do in consent items. However, we just want to clarify
some of the wording in this -- in this item. Certain of the Parks Department items were
removed from what the Parks Department is going to have to pay for, but they are not --
they have not been removed from the project. What happened is the project bid out, the
Parks Department items, which were to plan for -- to provide infrastructure to plan for
irrigated landscape in medians eventually, bid out and quite exceeded what they had
budgeted, so they contacted ACHD said we are going to have to pull some of these
items out of here. AGHD responded that they would actually pay for some of those
items. In fact, a significant amount of those items. So, the Parks Department is paying
for a share, but ACHD is picking up a significant portion of that and the entire project as
it was designed is going to move forward at this -- at this bid amount and if you want
some detailed information on the parks items, Mike Barton is here to take that if
necessary.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Kyle. Council, any questions for Kyle or Mike on this issue?
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: No.
Hoaglun: And is this something we have to approve or is this just an update on this bit
amount that's already been approved? You're just informing us?
Radek: No. Mr. President, Council Members, we are asking Council to authorize the
bid amount so that we can move forward on -- on construction with ACRD.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
Rountree: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we approve the Public Works request for the Franklin, Ten Mile
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 45 of 53
to Linder project in the amount of $1,015,425.40, an amount not to be exceeded.
Zaremba: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-C. Madam Clerk, would
you, please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Legal/Human esources: Wellness Incentive Budget
Amendment fora of-to-Exceed Amount of 20,100.00
Hoaglun: We have Item 9-D. Bill, have you got that one?
Nary: Yes, Mr. President, Members of the Council. This is a budget amendment for our
wellness incentive. This is a program that we discussed with you prior to the fiscal year
actually starting and, then, once the fiscal year started we brought this matter forward.
You did approve it. Basically we provided a hundred dollar incentive in our flexible
spending accounts for employees that would participate in our wellness program this
year. Part of that requirement was to go through the blood draw, blood screening and
survey that goes with that to get us up. We actually had 200 participants in that, which
was an increase. Last year we had about 120 -- actually, we had about 140 something
that actually participated last year, but only about 120 actually completed the entire
process. This year we had 200 complete the entire process, so we had a significant
increase from last year, so we are very pleased about that. We are very excited about
this incentive, so we have the bill, we need to pay it to our benefit manager, the folks
that run our flex spending program, so that's what this amendment is for, so we can get
that paid.
Hoaglun: Great. Thank you, Bill. Any questions?
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I move we are approve the wellness incentive budget amendment for a not to
exceed amount of 20,100 dollars.
Bird: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion and a second to approve Item 9-D. Madam Clerk, would
you, please, call roll.
Roll Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 46 of 53
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Legal epartment: iscuss Amendment of Mobile Sales Unit
Licensing ®rdinance Regarding inors
Hoaglun: Item 9-E Legal Department, discuss amendment of mobile sales unit
licensing.
Nary: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President, Members of the Council. We have had a request
from a local business in regards to our mobile sales unit licensing requirements and just
to give you a little background, more for the record, because we don't have a big crowd
in the room, we require for every mobile sales -- and mobile sales there are two types.
Either folks that drive around, like the ice cream trucks, and sell product from a mobile
unit or they are mobile themselves. So, the individual may go door to door and knock
on residents -- residential doors or business doors and sell products of some sort.
Either one of those types of sales methods require a city license. To get the city license
they are required to fill out an application and to go through a background check. As
part of that background check we run that through the state, we require fingerprints be
done with that. There is a cost. The cost for this particular license is 75 dollars. That
includes the cost of the staff time it takes for the processing of that that's both at the
clerk's office level, as well as the Police Department and, in addition, there is a 30 -- it's
34 dollars currently, but the price is going up periodically with the state for the
background check portion that the state does. Right now it's 34 dollars of that total of
75. The request we have had -- and one thing that is not required -- again, more for the
record's sake than anything -- if -- if a person were to order something from a particular
vendor -- so whether it's a Scentsy vendor or whether the newspaper -- the example I --
Ipurchased my newspaper through -- online or through billing, so I just bill them. I don't
get a person that comes to my door to sell me the newspaper. If they are delivering a
product you have ordered, whether it's online or some other method, and it's merely the
delivery, that doesn't require a license. So, it really is to deal with either the direct sale
out of a vehicle or the direct sale on a door-to-door basis. So, we have had a request
from more than one local business that they think the cost is very exorbitant and can be
very cost prohibitive to their businesses to have to purchase a license of this type for
every single sales person, whether they do lawn spraying products, lawn care types of
businesses, whether it's -- whether it's for a private company, whether it's for a
nonprofit, any type of door-to-door contact of this type we require a license fee acquired
prior to doing that. The request has been right now to maybe change or alter the
requirement slightly to allow minors to do this with maybe not the same stringent
standard. Right now a minor can do this. It doesn't make any difference to us whether
they are minors or adults, they go through the same process and we determine whether
or not they have a criminal background, whether it's a disqualifying type. So, certain
types of offenses disqualify a person from having a city license. Certain types of
felonies, certain types of misdemeanors within the last five years will disqualify a person
from having this type of license. Sex offender registration would prohibit a person from
having this type of license. Drug -- drug trafficking, drug traffic transportation, drug
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 47 of 53
sales, those types of things would prohibit someone from having this type of license.
The request has been to allow minors to have this license and potentially either not
charge them at all for the license, not require a license of any sort for a minor, or to
potentially maybe charge them just for the background portion that we pay the state for,
so the 34, 35 dollars that we are currently being charged by the state for that cost and
that the minors be supervised by a -- an adult. This creates kind of a two-step process
that doesn't exist now. Currently if a person goes door to door, whether they are a
minor or an adult, we receive a complaint, police respond, they address the problem,
whatever the issue is. If they decide to either cite the minor or they decide to arrest
based on what the circumstances are, they will deal with it based on whether they are
an adult or a minor based on what the law allows for that. If you have this circumstance
where you have another intervening person, a supervisor, so the speak, then, you have
another layer. So, you might -- if you were to allow this and as we have tried to vet this
out internally, the potential is like this, you're an adult, you supervise six, eight, ten
minors, each of them gets a license, we do the background check, we make sure they
are still, again, not a sex offender or a drug dealer or whatever. Now, you're
responsible for them as the adult. So, maybe you get the full-blown license so that you
have paid the full cost of our licensing process and the minors have paid just the direct
cost of the out-of-pocket out to the state cost for their license, but now you're
responsible for all of them. So, if any of those minors were to violate our ordinance or a
state law and get revoked because of it, because we would put that type of language in
our code, now not only are they revoked, but so are you and if you're revoked, then,
your other six, eight, or ten minors that you supervise are also now unable to operate,
because they need you to be licensed as the adult for them to actually be able to
operate legally in this system. So, that's what's been discussed as a possibility. It
would, obviously, be some financial relief to a business to allow minors to work under
the umbrella of a supervisor, they wouldn't have to pay the full cost of every individual.
We still would get the background check, but as with anything there is a cost and the
cost would simply be absorbed by the city. I mean the fees are related to the cost of
providing the service. The fees aren't -- unfortunately I think sometimes people think
the fees are somewhat randomly generated and the reality is is we go through a fairly
thorough analysis to come up with what's an appropriate fee related to the average cost
of providing this service for the average applicant and not the ones that are more
complicated or complex. So, that's what's been requested of the city is to consider an
alternative for minors to be able to be sales people to sell door to door of various types
of products, whether it's the newspaper or whether it's Scentsy, whether it's something
else, it doesn't matter. That wasn't the request of the specific product as much as the
process. So, we are asking Council for some direction. If you'd like us to bring back to
you a proposed ordinance for your review we can do that. Again, this is a light
alteration, if that's your direction from what we currently do. I guess in conclusion I -- as
the city attorney I wouldn't recommend that you not do any background checks. There
are minors that commit felonies. There are minors that commit serious felonies and the
intent of this is a public safety concern. It is some modest level of assurance for our
citizens that if a person knocks on the door and they have a city license that they have
had at least a background check completed to verify that there is not a safety issue.
Again, we don't attest to the products or selling or whether they individually are honest
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 48 of 53
or dishonest or anything, all we are attesting is they don't have a criminal record that
raises to the level of concern of their safety for them to be knocking on your door or
selling something out of their vehicle to your child or to you. So, I wouldn't recommend
you ignore those requirements completely, but if you -- if you as a Council want to direct
that we come up with some alternative based on a few other things I have suggested to
you, we certainly could bring that back to you if you would like.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Bill. Council, questions? Comments?
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: To me the whole purpose of the ordinance in the first place is a safety issue
for the residents of the city. If we have people -- and I'm not focusing necessarily on the
person that's a taco vendor in a truck or something like that, but the people that do go
door to door and knock on doors, they are automatically learning who is home and who
is not home. They are automatically being able to -- if somebody is home they are able
to see into the home and what might be interesting objects in the home or the quality of
the objects in the home and to me I feel it's important that we have some control over
that and to me that's the purpose of this ordinance. A group that chooses to use adults
or uses -- uses youth it costs us the same to process them no matter how old they are
and as you mentioned our fees are based on the amount of time it takes us to process
something and I'm not that much in favor of saying there is a different fee depending on
your age. I think it probably costs about the same for us to process it. So, I would be in
favor of pretty much leaving it alone. I mean there may be some things that we could
tweak in the ordinance, but that's an ongoing process with all ordinances. I'm not -- I
think it's a safety thing that we need to continue. We definitely need to do background
checks on anybody that's going to get a city permit and go knocking on doors up and
down in the neighborhood and we need to charge what that costs.
Hoaglun: Councilman Rountree.
Rountree: Thank you, Mr. President. I agree, I don't -- I have got some comments
about some tweaking, but as far as weighing an adult versus an adolescent or whatever
age group, the cost is the cost. And as far as the ordinance goes, given the number of
phone calls a police department gets about these things, it is a community issue. It's
not make believe. And given some of the instances of some of the groups that have
moved into the city on occasion, it's not make believe, it's a real deal. And I think it's
important that we keep a handle on it. We have got hundreds of folks that get these
every year and operate and I agree it's an additional business cost, but it's insurance to
them, because some employers don't do this with their employees and some employers
don't have access to the information we might have about juvenile employees that we
could tell them that, you know, this particular juvenile we have access to information to
tell you they are in the criminal element. So, I think it's important that we keep the fees
the same. I would suggest that if we do make any tweaks that we clarify the
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 49 of 53
disqualification component of the juvenile piece to remove any status related crimes and
would also suggest that we adjust the fee to the fee of the city, because the 75 dollars
is not the fee of the city's cost, it then encapsulates what the state police charge to do
the background check and fingerprinting and all that process. Let the applicant pay that
fee directly to them, we not be an agent to collect that, we just collect the fee that the
city -- police department's cost for doing the remainder of creating the permit, doing the
remainder of the background checks, any other administrative duties assigned to it.
Hoaglun: Thank you, Council. And I think there was a case a couple of years ago or a
situation where we had an adult with minors coming from out of state and when the
background -- when they were informed of our ordinances, background check was
conducted, every one of those minors had serious -- serious criminal background
issues. So, that's something that we don't want to have walking and coming into our
community and our homes and having young people with very serious crimes on their
records, so --
Nary: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes, Bill.
Nary: Yeah. Mr. President, Members of the Council -- and thank you, Council Member
Rountree, for raising that about the status offenses. I neglected to do that. We had as
part of our -- I guess constant process of improvement, we have over the last few years,
with the police department's assistance, we have tried to ratchet down what are
disqualifying offenses and why. A few years ago when we instituted this all
misdemeanors were disqualifying and, then, we determined some of them really aren't
very relevant to the process, so we have eliminated those and we think probably status
offenses from -- what you're talking about, status offenses for minor -- a minor in
consumption or a minor tobacco citation isn't very relevant to a door-to-door sale.
Obviously drugs are not status offenses, sex offenses are not status, so we are not
talking about that, we are talking about things that are really only relevant because of
the individual's age and may not be relevant at all to the -- the activity that's being done.
We have eliminated the reckless driving from the door-to-door sales people. We only
use reckless driving as a disqualifier for ones that want to use driving as their method of
delivery. So, that's -- that's part of our process and thank you for raising that and we will
get with the police department and determine which specific status offenses make the
most sense to exclude from the disqualifier and we can bring that back to you as an
amendment to this ordinance.
Holman: Mr. President?
Hoaglun: Yes.
Holman: Council Members, Councilman Rountree, as to your request that we -- the
applicant pay them directly for those fees, I believe we checked into that as far as the
fingerprint card staying at Idaho State Police and the applicant being able to pay fees
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 50 of 53
directly there and they, I believe, were not willing to do that. We have cards that are
coded just to us and the system is they fingerprint our applicants for us and, then, they
bill back to our accounting department I believe once a month. So, I don't believe it's an
option for us to totally cut that part out of it and have them cut the check straight to
Idaho State Police, I believe it still has to be routed through us.
Nary: Mr. President?
Rountree: Thank you.
Hoaglun: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. President, Council Member Rountree, the one thing we can do and we have
looked at is at least delineating on our ordinance, because it may be unclear to many
folks that the 75 dollars includes the cost that we have to pay to the state for the
background and what other cities have done was looked at both Boise and Nampa is
they separate their fees into two -- two distinct fees, although you pay the same one.
So, it identifies -- you pay the fee that whatever the state requires and you pay our fee.
And so that way it's clear to folks at least what we are charging for our services that's
being done, even though all of it gets paid to us and we pay the state, it's a way to at
least clarify to folks what their fees are covering.
Rountree: Does that avoid an ordinance change if the state raises their fee or do we
just state in our ordinance that they pay current fees to the state of Idaho?
Nary: Yes. That would avoid us having to change our fee each time the state changes
it, yes.
Rountree: Okay.
Hoaglun: Lieutenant Leslie, any comments on these proposed changes that we are
having a discussion on? Everything looking good from your end?
Leslie: No, I agree with you completely. The background checks are necessary to
make sure that we keep those individuals out of our community. Like you said, every
spring we hit this every year, we deal with door-to-door solicitors and a lot of the times
they are not even from our state. Most of the time they are from back east or California,
other states where they actually go out and gather youth and bring them and travel in,
you know, vans and come to our city and work from city to city to city selling products
and so most of the problems we have aren't even from our community, they are not our
local vendors, they are not our local businesses, they are -- they are outside businesses
that are coming in.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you.
Zaremba: Mr. President?
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 51 of 53
Hoaglun: Yes, Councilman Zaremba.
Zaremba: I know it wasn't part of the question, but I would like to add a suggestion and
that is I suspect there are a lot of our residences that don't know we have such an
ordinance and I wonder if it might not be a bad idea to write up a little brochure and stuff
it in the water sewer bill once a year that says if a vendor comes to your door look for
this permit and here is what it looks like. They should be wearing it on the outside of
their clothing and if you don't see it, please, call the city or the police or something. Just
a suggestion.
Nary: We will work with Ms. Nagorski there. Makes sense to me.
Hoaglun: Good idea. Thank you. All right. Bill, do you have enough guidance on that?
Nary: Yes.
Item 10: rdinances
A. econd Reading of ®rinance No. 13®1539: doption of 2009
Uniform Plumbing Code and City of eridian Amendments
Hoaglun: Great. Thank you. Item 10-A is the second reading of Ordinance No. 13-
1539. Madam Clerk, would you, please, read the ordinance for the second time by title
only.
Holman: Thank you, Mr. President. I really wanted to read the whole thing. City of
Meridian Ordinance No: 13-1539, an ordinance repealing and replacing Title 10,
Chapter 2, Meridian City Code, regarding adoption of the 2009 plumbing code and
amendments and providing an effective date.
Hoaglun: Great. That is -- Ordinance 13-1539 has been read for the second time. It
will be up for third reading at our next scheduled Council meeting, which will be in
February. February 5th.
Item 11: Future Meeting Topics
Hoaglun: And do we have any future meeting topics to bring forward at this time?
Bird: I have none.
Hoaglun: Hearing none --
Rountree: None, but I have a question about --
Hoaglun: Question about the resolution that was passed out?
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 52 of 53
Rountree: Yes.
Nary: I can answer that, Mr. President.
Hoaglun: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. President, Members of the Council, Council Member Rountree, last week
when you weren't here there was a request by our school district -- we are in the midst
of negotiating an agreement with them in relation to certain types of development fees.
There is a project Willow Creek Elementary that they are trying to get built and open
think for the 2013-14 school year. So, they have asked to bring it forward now, knowing
that we are still working on this, so that resolution was approved conceptually last week
to suspend the collection of certain fees. What we did is work with the Community
Development Department, there was a table that Mr. Freckleton came up with as to
which fees we would not collect currently and which fees we have to collect. So, it was
trying to delineate that. That will probably drive our conversation with the school district
on a permanent agreement and also the potential exists that there may be one more
project, the remodel of Meridian High School that may be coming in prior to us getting
an agreement done, so you will probably see one more resolution of this type, but the
problem that -- that we had last week is they are -- the projects are so specific as to
what is being requested and the fees are so related to what they requested we couldn't
come up with a blanket resolution to cover all the circumstances. So, that's why this is
just for the one project currently and you may see one more. We think we can come up
with language in an agreement that will be flexible enough to address these concerns
and not have to bring one for each occasion, but that's what that is, so --
Rountree: So, you want comments on this if we have them?
Nary: Absolutely. If you can provide that to myself or Mr. Baird that would be helpful
and, again, it was just -- the reason I brought it kind of after the fact was it was
technically approved by the Council last week, it was just really wanting the wording and
the language to be complete with everybody and so that's what's in front of you.
Hoaglun: Definitely a future topic.
Rountree: With that I move to adjourn.
Bird: Second.
Hoaglun: We have a motion to adjourn. All those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Hoaglun: We are adjourned.
Meridian City Council
January 22, 2013
Page 53 of 53
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:45 P.M.
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