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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2012-10-30~~E IDIAN^-- SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL AMENDE® MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, October 30, 2012 at 5:00 PM 1. Roll-Call Attendance X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird X Mayor Tammy de Weerd 2. Pledge of Allegiance 3. Adoption of the Agenda Adopted 4. Consent Agenda Approved (Pg 2) A. Approval of Award of Bid and Agreement for "Liquid Emulsion Polymer" to BASF Corporation for the Not-To-Exceed Amount of $125,000.00 5. Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District and Lee Centers Property Discussion (Pg 2-23) Adjourned at 6:16 p.m. Meridian City Council Meeting Agenda -Tuesday, October 30, 2012 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearing, please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. Meridian City Council ®ctober 30, 2012 A meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 5:03 p.m., Tuesday, October 30, 2012, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Charlie Rountree, Brad Hoaglun, David Zaremba, and Keith Bird. Others Present: Bill Nary, Jaycee Homan, Bruce Chatterton, Pete Friedman, Tom Barry, John Overton, and Dean Willis. Item 1: Roll-call Attendance: Roll call. X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird X Mayor Tammy de Weerd De Weerd: Welcome. We appreciate you joining us here this early evening and welcome you to the City Council Chambers. For the record it is Tuesday, October 30th. We are -- it's a few minutes after 5:00 and this is a special City Council meeting. Madam Clerk, will you, please, start our meeting with roll call attendance. Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Item No. 2 is the pledge to our flag. If you will all rise and join us in the pledge. (Pledge of Allegiance recited.) Item 3: Adoption of the Agenda De Weerd: Item No. 3 is adoption of the agenda. Hoaglun: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I move adoption of the agenda as printed. Zaremba: Second. De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to adopt the agenda as printed, which is unusual. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 2 of 23 Item 4: Consent Agenda A. Approval of Award of Bid and Agreement for "Liquid Emulsion Polymer" to BASF Corporation for the Not-To-Exceed Amount of $125,000.00 De Weerd: Item 4, Consent Agenda. Hoaglun: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I move the approval of the Consent Agenda and the Mayor to sign and Clerk to attest. Zaremba: Second. De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. Madam Clerk, will you call roll. Roll Call: Bird,, yea; Rountree, absent; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea. De Weerd: All ayes. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE ABSENT. Item 5: Meridian Heights/Kentucky Ridge Discussion De Weerd: Item No. 5 is a discussion on Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District and Lee Centers property discussion. I will, again, thank you all for being here this evening. I will -- I would like to thank the Council for taking their fifth Tuesday to have this discussion and look at how we can move forward on this issue and I will remind you tonight we are really looking at it at the 30,000 foot level. As Councilman Hoaglun and I met with our city staff and the two entities that are here this evening, we saw that there has been a lot that has changed since the last time we discussed and I know there is a history here and we are hoping that we can focus on how we can best look forward and identify from Council those areas that are of most concern that we want to have addressed in such an agreement and to make sure before we waste anyone's time that everyone's committed to this and on the same page. I will say that Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge have done a lot of work to get to the spot that they are today and I will commend you for those efforts. I'd also liked to thank Lee Centers for being a part of this discussion as well. It was kind of a gaping hole and this needs to have your participation in it as well. And it will help -- this is just from my perspective, as someone who doesn't get to vote unless they tie, I am dedicated to this project and seeing how we can move forward to the benefit of the residents that are involved, property owners, and the city as a whole. So, we do appreciate you all being here. I had intended on -- Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 3 of 23 on Mr. Barry to give a brief overview and he must have been on the same timeline as Mr. Rountree. So, I will go ahead and say I guess that was a brief history and I don't know if the -- the district is going to come and make remarks first or -- or, Warren, is that what you're here for? Stewart: Madam Mayor, Councilmen, no, I wasn't going to give a brief overview, but can kind of give a brief introduction. I think Tom is upstairs tied up with something at the moment. I know he was planning on being down here, but we had a lot of discussions over the -- well, yesterday we had quite a discussion and spent about four, four and a half hours, I believe, meeting on this issue, there was a lot of progress made and I think initially Tom was going to turn over some time to the two different groups involved in this to kind of give a presentation and kind of give you a status update as to where we were and, then, he was going to interject and follow up. De Weerd: That was a good segue into Mr. Nary's entry -- or Mr. Barry's entry -- entrance. Tom, did you want to make any opening remarks before we turn this over to -- Barry: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm sorry I'm running a little late this afternoon. And I do. Thank you for that. We are here this afternoon to discuss a potential resolution of a three way conundrum that exists between the Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District, the City of Meridian, and Mr. Lee Centers, a prominent landowner in the area. As you know, this project is something I inherited when I first started with the city five years ago and I looked at the file and the file even predates my time with the city by three years at least. It is true that the City Council will hear tonight many of the issues that have been heard before, but a great deal has changed between the last discussion and this evening's discussion. When the district representatives were last here before you, you made requests of them to assist in furthering the development of a viable solution to the issues at hand and I'm pleased to report in many cases that they have. You asked them to survey their -- the homeowners to assess their interest in annexing to the city and they did. You asked them to identify and develop an annexation pathway and they have. You have asked them to survey their sewer system to identify deficiencies and they did. You have also asked them to make upgrades to their infrastructure that they are -- and they are by developing a five year capital plan for both their water and their wastewater infrastructure. To date they have reconstructed a new drinking water well to meet municipal standards at our request and they are upgrading the sewer infrastructure as we speak. You also asked them to work with their neighbors to collaboratively find a way to resolve their challenges that would not impact the city's ratepayers and I believe they have. This afternoon you will hear from Ms. Becky McKay of Engineering Solutions, who is representing Mr. Lee Centers and you will also hear from Mr. Ryan Morgan of Centra Consulting who is representing Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District. Today's discussion will not likely include the details that will be needed to fully vet a final solution and it is not the intention of either staff or representatives of either entity to urge a Council decision in that regard. With that I will turn the floor back over to you, Madam Mayor. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 4 of 23 De Weerd: Okay. Is -- do you know the order of -- Barry: It's at your pleasure, Madam Mayor. De Weerd: Okay. I think it's probably appropriate to hear from the district first. Or you probably have figured it out among you, so -- I'm just throwing it your way. Morgan: Madam Mayor, Council Members, in the -- De Weerd: If you will, please -- Morgan: Yes. My name is Ryan Morgan with Centra Consulting. Our business address is 413 West Idaho, Suite 302, in Boise, Idaho. 83702. De Weerd: Thank you, Ryan. Morgan: In the interest of showing cooperation and showing the spirit of working together, we have actually prepared a presentation that we are going to present together. I'm going to go over the first page of it and, then, I'm going to turn the time over to Becky and she's going to go through a couple of pages and, then, I will finish up at the last little bit and, then, open it to the Council for questions and discussion. De Weerd: Okay. Becky, just for the record, why don't you introduce yourself, so, then, you can just have a seamless exchange. McKay: Sure. I'm Becky McKay, Engineering Solutions, 1029 North Rosario, Meridian. Business address. De Weerd: Thank you. McKay: Representing Mr. Centers. Morgan: All right. So, here is our first slide and if we just -- this one tells why we are here, which I think we have kind of covered. If you -- if we go to the next slide -- McKay: Do you want me to go through this? Morgan: Why don't you, Becky. McKay: Okay. We kind of had a little order -- we broke up in an order, so we appreciate you guys bearing with us here. We created this map and, basically, what the -- the purpose of the map is to demonstrate where the existing city limits lie. The tan areas are your existing city limits. We kind of labeled some of the projects that have either been approved or are on their way to coming into the city as far as a subdivision is concerned. We also have the Hawkins property that was a large mixed use development. The City Council did rule -- or did determine that they would annex and Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 5 of 23 zone it. However, they have not, obviously, completed their development agreement and the ordinance amended or adopted, so they are not officially annexed. We also show Mr. Centers' property that is currently under his ownership at this time, it's a total 192 acres and, then, the blue property is Mr. Hansen's parcel, which you can see goes in front on Victory Road. Morgan: Now, addressing some of the stuff that Mr. Barry was talking about. We'd like to update you a little bit on what has changed since the last time the district was before you. I think one of the biggest issues that has changed is they are no longer a water and sewer association, they are now adistrict -- a taxing district that has authority, by state law, to tax and to do all that kind of stuff. So, I think that is a very significant change. The next thing that has been done is we have designed, built, and it is currently in operation a new municipal water well that meets all municipal standards. It was approved by DEQ, that was constructed, as you can see, for about 355,000 dollars on one of the existing well lots. Like I said, it is currently in operation. It is under full compliance with all DEQ -- or Department of Environmental Quality standards. Along with that, all district sewer and water facilities are currently in compliance with the Department of Environmental Quality. And the last time that we were here before the Council there was several outstanding issues and it was in some cases almost a state of emergency for the district. That is no longer the case. We have a viable system that is operational and at least for the foreseeable future will meet all regulations. Obviously, rules change, things are updated, we can't guarantee that in the next five, ten, 20 years, but under current rules and laws we are -- they are fully in compliance with all state issues. The district has also gone out and searched for and received a revenue bond approved. Some of that bond has already been levied or utilized. It had been approved, obviously, by the district and so they do have that financial backing now, which is something they didn't have in the past. And, finally, for the district they have gone out since our last -- since they have last been before you and they have TV'd and camera'd all of the existing sewer lines. They have found a few minor issues, but the current state of the sewer line was not nearly as bad as feared the last time that the district was in front of the Council. So, I think that is important. Not only have they TV'd those, they have identified some of these minor problem areas that have -- they have come up with and as Tom pointed out have come -- put together a five year capital improvement plan to resolve all of those issues that the TV camera'ing has found. So, as far as the district is concerned, those are some of the major changes since last time they were here and with that I will turn the time back to Becky and she can talk about some of the other stuff. De Weerd: Okay. Ryan, I think Councilman Hoaglun has a quick question and just for the record I will say that Councilman Rountree has joined us. Hoaglun: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Ryan, the land application permit, how long are those good for? Is it a five year permit? Ten year permit? Until rules change? Can you enlighten me? Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 6 of 23 Morgan: The current land application permit was just renewed and is approved for a five year period. Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you. McKay: Becky McKay. Thank you, Members of the Council. We truly appreciate you guys giving up your time to meet with us, because we know a lot of time has been spent on this in the past and we -- we think we are forging a new pathway that will work for everyone. One of the other things that we wanted to talk about was what has changed. We did -- there is a quiet title action that Mr. Centers filed concerning his perpetual easement for land application. There is a pending condemnation action on the Centers' 40 acres that is encumbered by the Meridian Heights Sewer and Water District. We have been working together holding workshops, talking, working with lawyers, without attorneys, trying to create a cooperative spirit and making a significant effort by both parties to tackle this task. It's important that we identify the issues and that we seek a mutually agreeable solution, so that's what -- what one of our goals has been from the very beginning. Mr. Hansen, who has agreed to cooperate, he attended the workshop yesterday -- or his son attended the workshop yesterday. He's agreed to annex his property, which, therefore, would make Kentucky Ridge contiguous with the city limits, which last time was an issue. And he has agreed to allow Mr. Centers to construct Meridian sewer and water improvements and provide the necessary easements to the city. The other thing that has taken place is Mr. Centers has allowed us to do some land planning on his property. The 192 acres, I need to qualify, does include the land application, but he has a large property. He lives on that property. He cares about what happens in that section. Meridian infrastructure is important to him. Coming into the city is important to him. Future development of his property is also a goal of his. He has made a financial commitment to expand sewer and water facilities at his expense and make that single point sewer connection to Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge. Also in doing -- extending the water it would be stubbed in the event that they were to connect onto the city at some point in time. So, our objective here is to work with the city, because, obviously, the two parties, Mr. Centers and the Meridian Heights Sewer and Water District, can't do this alone. We want to work with the city to develop a mutually beneficial and financially feasible plan for all parties and that is our objective, because we know that that is extremely important to everyone and I guess you may be asking yourselves, you know, what is the incentive for the city to participate. You know, I have heard comments: We have been down this road before. Well, I think that a lot of things have changed. The district -- these people have really -- really, you know, reached some milestones as far as what they have done with this small district to achieve some of these goals they have set for themselves. We believe that you will creating an opportunity for annexation and future development within this section. Also, you know, exploring how we can annex Meridian Heights Sewer and Water District. Obviously, resolve these legal impediments would be a first priority and allow the development of this section. You know, not only Meridian Heights may occupy roughly -- and Kentucky Ridge approximately a little over 100 acres, there is about 534 acres in Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 7 of 23 this section that isn't developed or isn't fully developed. There is a lot of potential out here. Meridian Heights also has a 16 acre site, which includes some open space, there is a buffer, and, then, where the existing ponds are that has future development potential. And I think it's important that the city extend -- you know, allow extension of services. If you look at that map that I provided, you know, the -- it has grown toward Victory Road and if we go east of Meridian Road it's gone south of Victory. So, this is a logical progression of development and extension of city infrastructure. You know, the city has a tax base as far as all of their long range sewer planning and water planning, you know, they are also anticipating that these properties will develop. The city has spent a lot of money extending that 36 inch sewer trunk line across Interstate 84 prior to the Ten Mile interchange construction and I applaud the Council that they have had the foresight to set priorities for the infrastructure extensions and I think that has been the secret of your success and I remember the day when I would go to other municipalities and they would say, well, we don't want to be a bedroom community like Meridian and just approve all these subdivisions. Now they all want to be like Meridian, because you guys have blossomed, the roof tops came, the commercial followed, schools followed, parks -- I mean you guys are the model now of development and positive things in a tough economic environment and I applaud you. We feel that this would be a permanent solution. That's -- that's what we are looking for. We are looking for some type of a road map, a phased plan, but something that is a permanent solution. We are at the fork. of a road right now and like one of the board members said, we can go Road A or we can go Road B and so we want to make sure that we -- I guess give this one more thought before they take Road B and I guess that's what we are asking for the Council to do. We are asking that they authorize the staff to work with us. I know they have done a lot of -- a lot of homework and spent a lot of time on this and I don't think that that time has been wasted, because I think that time is useful and I have gone back through the record and I have a stack of minutes on this that date clear back to 1995 and -- so, for 17 years this has been discussed. It was discussed when I brought Bear Creek through and we were doing an interim lift station. Should we or should we not oversize that lift station and Gary Smith made comments and said, you know, we just don't have the capacity until we run another trunk across I-84 at this time -- or at that time, then, we should consider taking on Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge. So, for 17 years this has been discussed. I don't think it's going to go away and I think we have a great opportunity here and I hope the Council will embrace it. Ryan, do you have any closing comments? Morgan: I would just like to, in a sense, support what Becky has said. We are definitely at a crossroads. There are several -- as Becky mentioned, several legal cases out there that we can go one way or we can go the other way, depending on the outcome of those legal cases, which may or may not proceed forward based on the outcome of what is decided here tonight and the near future. This may be potentially the last time for 15, 20 years that this option is out here in front of the Council again, because depending on the outcome of some of these legal cases our district may, in fact, end up owning the land application site and, therefore, that 40 acres, along with the 16 other acres that Becky referred to, will belong to the district and there won't be potential easements out there, because we all understand that perpetual easements are only Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 8 of 23 good for -- until legal cases come about. So, there is some incentive here I think for all parties to work together to reach an agreement that is mutually beneficial and that's -- that's why we are here. We understand that there is potential on all sides and we are willing to work with Mr. Centers, with city staff and as long as the Council allows us to do so. Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you. Ryan. Thank you, Becky. Council, do you have questions at this point? Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba Zaremba: I think Tom mentioned that -- or you had it in here that you did a survey of the citizens to assess their willingness to annex. What was the result of that? Morgan: They did do a survey. It's been several years since that survey was conducted. At that point in time the numbers were 66, 67 percent in favor of annexation. De Weerd: I think it was 76. Morgan: Sorry. Seventy-four. De Weerd: Seventy-four. Morgan: Seventy-four percent in favor. De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Hoaglun? Hoaglun: Well, Madam Mayor, it's tough -- we are trying to keep this at the 30,000 foot level and there is tons of questions and details and different things that -- that I have. I guess one of the questions Ihave -- and I don't know if Mr. Barry or you, Ryan, would -- or Becky might respond to this, but if this moves forward and we come to agreement, one of the agreements that I'm unsure about is we have already two developed areas, Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge and, then, there is other open property out there. How will that fit into the whole picture of the sewer infrastructure? So that's a question that I have that -- we don't need an answer now, but I'm unsure how that's going to look down the road and so -- I don't know, Tom, if you have some thoughts on that to enlighten us a little bit, I'm sure you guys have given it some thought. Barry: Thank you for your question, Councilman Hoaglun. And we have given that thought. We have actually looked at it internally in our department and we have talked with Mr. Centers and also the Meridian Heights Water and Sewer District about this minimally and the master plans that we have identified for development in that area can accommodate both the addition of Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge, in addition to Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 9 of 23 the surrounding undeveloped land in the plans that have been proposed at least at this point in concept. Hoaglun: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: I would add a comment. I attended what I believe was most of the meeting that happened yesterday. I had to leave a little bit early. I'm not sure how long it went after that, but I was impressed, one, with the progress that has been made since the last time this was on my radar screen, but also the spirit of cooperation and let's work it out and see what we can do that's the best for everybody. So, I was pleased with the progress on both points and I came away from that meeting knowing that there were more things to be worked out, but the Council's last standing order was that the staff should not put any more time in on this and I was convinced during the meeting yesterday that it would be worthwhile to Meridian to help resolve this, be involved with -- with the other parties to some extent, setting a precedent for what may be half a dozen other county subdivisions that at some point will have not these exact problems, but other problems. If we can set a template for resolving those problems as they come up for annexation, Ithink --Ithink it would be worth authorizing our staff to get involved in this and .stay involved with it with the eventual objective -- object of everybody getting it solved and hopefully annexing them all into the city as well. Personal opinion. De Weerd: So, I guess, Council, the question in front of you tonight is as these entities --Ithink you know there -- it is a crossroads. There are -- there is a legal action pending and certainly we are looking not just for ashort-term fix, but looking at the long term and this is abutting our city limits and it is in our area of impact and we -- we should be looking at the long term and how it can benefit this area, as well as our city as a whole. But as I know that the meeting that we were involved in, we don't want to do this forever and we just want to find a resolution and move forward and this is -- this is the last attempt and unless the Council really will seriously consider that, we don't want to waste anyone's time, effort, or money and see, Rick, I represented you on that one. Hoaglun: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Yes. Hoaglun: The one -- and I'm in agreement with a lot of what you said and that's why when we had that meeting and I could see some things had changed, even though I haven't had the history -- in fact, in many ways I only went back to 2006 minutes, Becky, and started from there and moved forward and it was like the movie Groundhog Day, I was like, wow, I have been there, but I wasn't there then. But it was the same thing. And -- and kept reoccurring and -- but in the last meeting things have changed. Ithink the presentation shows some things have changed, there is some dynamics out there. The one thing that I'm concerned about, if we say, okay, folks, let's see what we can do, staff will work together, try to make this happen, is -- is the annexation issue and we are Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 10 of 23 using data that's a couple years. I mean anything that's more than four years old, you know, look what our country is going through presidentially you can whipsaw back and forth between two different deals and that's the same at the local level. That -- that is a concern to me and I don't know if we move forward with this at what point do you say, okay, we need to go out there and make sure that the folks -- because as I have read all along and I'm in complete agreement what the Council has done in the past and that's not forced annexations. So, that's -- that's a big question mark out there that I think should be answered sooner, as opposed to later. So that's a concern I have. De Weerd: And I guess the question is is there a reasonable expectation from this Council as to what that means. Is it 50 -- 50 percent plus one? Is it -- because I will tell you that a hundred percent is unreasonable and I think that the folks sitting probably in this room are curious as to what that means. I just will tell you that -- what is the subdivision behind -- over there at the corner of Eagle Road and Ustick that we annexed it lot by lot. Bird: Carol Subdivision. De Weerd: Carol Subdivision. Zaremba: On Leslie. De Weerd: That is not the way to do it. You go and say who wants to annex and who doesn't and those that want to annex in annex and those that didn't haven't and that is a mess and we created that. We don't need to -- that's the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results and that's not the right way of doing it. So, if there is -- if there is a majority that -- that are not opposed to it I think we need to look at that and we need to have this group of folks know that annexation is part of this discussion and it always has been. But it is managing what are those expectations and what is the expectation on the -- on behalf of Council to that tipping point. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: I think the Council and Councils even before I was on the Council have stuck to a principle that annexation and water and sewer services are linked in a way that they can't be separated, that if we are going to provide services we need to annex. If we are going to annex we need to provide the services and there is some health and safety reasons for that, things that would be perfectly legal and safe in a rural environment, as an area urbanizes it is not to everybody's health benefit for individuals to have septic tanks and their own private wells or even a lagoon system that's different from our present system. So, to me those two have always been linked, that if we are going to provide the service we require the annexation. To me that's a voluntary annexation. If they want service that's included and when we talk about a majority or a super majority, Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 11 of 23 to me that's a method of how a group decides whether or not they are all going to annex and I believe our recommendation to this group has been that among them they vote and get a super majority. But the point of it is not that 66 percent of them would annex, but a hundred percent of them would annex based on that vote. So, I unless somebody has a different idea that's the way I think about it. De Weerd: I think you have three attorneys that are going to be putting their heads together on this and they will figure that out, because I think that's a point of law and so, again, that's probably an expectation you can expect to come back in the form of a recommendation. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: I will try to get through here. I got one question and we don't have any history of having annexed an area that has an already established sewer district. I'd like to see the parameters of how we work within that. I know Boise does and other areas have water and sewer districts within their city limits that they use. That's something new for us. I would like to be clear on that. Being one of the -- between Councilman Rountree and I, I think we have sit on most of the deals on this. This is a very very good application. This is the best I have seen presented. I can certainly go forward with our staff looking into it, with you guys working it out, but I do have -- I have one question on how do we work within aself-taxing sewer district. De Weerd: And I think that -- that information definitely will come back in working through the discussions. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: And I apologize for the delay. I got a note to tell me why I was late. De Weerd: From your wife or your doctor? Rountree: No. It was from Jaycee and she keeps track of me well. And the original agenda did say 5:30, which I intended to be here at 5:30, but it was later amended, so I missed the amendment. I apologize. Yes, we have dealt with this on numerous occasions and in all fairness I'm a bit frustrated, even though there appears to be progress made. The Council has been adamant through the years that annexation is a requirement and I believe it's a requirement in order for the city to have some ability to get any contractual arrangement followed through with. Without being annexed and part of the city I do not believe any agreement made with any entity -- if they decide to back out and we are already receiving their effluent, that we have any resource. Yeah, we have all got lawyers, we cane spend a bunch more time with our lawyers -- the Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 12 of 23 bottom line is we are going to continue to receive that effluent. We won't be able to turn it off, as we have been told on numerous occasions. We could do that if it came to that, which we can't. There is no way. The other issue I have is that I think in 2006 it started out the potential liability to the City of Meridian -- repairs was about two million dollars. In about four years that grew to about four -- little over four million dollars. That's just the liability with the infrastructure that's in place. It doesn't address the lost cost or the lost revenue to the city. Even if we annex we lose the impact fees or potentially the impact fees for fire, for police, for parks and recreation that 285 new homes built in Meridian would pay. To me that's a loss to our taxpayers and our ratepayers and it gets to the point of fairness. Becky used the word financially feasible plan. If this is to move forward I need to hear somewhere out there that somebody besides the City of Meridian is willing to accept and provide surety to the City of Meridian to accommodate a potential loss of revenue and a potential liability and my number, just roughly, is somewhere between five and eight million dollars. That's a lot of money that's not chump change that we have heard about, well, that's not much money to do this, it's not much money to do that. There is no issues with this system up there. We can enter into an agreement, we can stagger into it, but once the stuff starts flowing there is no out for the City of Meridian. All we can do is get into a legal hassle. I don't want to do that to a future Council. Having said that, that's my issue. Am I a reasonable guy? Some of you are shaking your head and say no. I'm a very reasonable guy, I'm willing to work out compromises, I'm willing to give what the fourth I can give from a Council perspective, but the bottom line is is our ratepayers. Mine and all of our constituents. They have invested millions and millions and will be investing multiple millions more in our city, not just in the water and not just in the sewer facilities. So, from whatever basis we move forward, it -- you need to know that's my position. It's got to be fair and it's got to be equitable and until I hear that it's going to be, I have a tough time moving forward, because so far it's always been, well, city, you bear those costs and I'm not willing to do that. So, if we can come forth with a fair and equitable solution how the city can be insured or some surety is given to the city that we can collect if things go backwards, fine. De Weerd: Okay. And I guess I will ask Council and just -- just to also go on record here as well is these subdivisions, although they have been in the county, they are Meridian. They are in our area of impact, they have Meridian addresses, and like some of our older subs, they didn't pay impact fees and they haven't paid the kind of hook-up fees that we are charging now and there is going to be a balance. These folks have already been using our parks and our fire department is responding to them in their calls, because they are within our response area. Our police department, whether we want to admit it or not, they are responding out there as well through mutual aid. So, I think we have to be realistic in our understanding of this, too. These are not new homes and they understand what comes with that and that there is some code issues and how we can bring some of these up and there are challenges. But I think we have a good group of heads that can come back with an equitable proposal, but we also have to be realistic in what our expectations are and it isn't a new sub. So, I -- I understand what -- what you're saying, Mr. Rountree, but I also say it is what it is and it's one of the Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 13 of 23 reasons why the -- the city has opposed urban densities in our area of impact, because it provides some challenges. But these are Meridian addresses that I consider Meridian citizens and I hope we can find a solution. With that said, Council, I have heard the majority say let's move forward, let's have our staff work on this, come and work on a proposal to bring back; is that correct? Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: That's correct in mine, but I don't want something dragging out that's going to take -- that's going to cost us 150, 200 thousand in staff time. I want it done and done quickly and get it back in here to us. De Weerd: I think everyone agrees -- Bird: Get all the answers -- get all the answers that Councilman Rountree -- and I have --- I have the same questions he does and the same concerns. De Weerd: Okay. Hoaglun: Yes, Madam Mayor, I think we should go forward, do it as quickly as possible and as thoroughly as possible, of course, and, you know, it doesn't preclude this Council at the very end saying no. I don't want to give anyone any false hope, but at the same time I think with the progress that's been made and the staff's work and the folks that will be involved, I hope something can come together. Not to put any pressure on you guys. Zaremba: Madam Mayor, I have many of the same reservations, but I do feel that we need not only to resolve this one, but to be prepared to resolve what's half a dozen or ten others as you mentioned and the county has been allowing denser operations, denser developments that don't meet the city standards in a number of ways and we need to figure out how to accommodate them at the time that it's appropriate to annex any one of them. So, without promising anything I am very much in favor of staff continuing to be involved in what could be a solution. That doesn't mean that I want staff to do all of the work. Mr. Centers and the district have intelligent people among them and attorneys that they hire and I don't see the city doing all -- all the work that needs to be done for them, but certainly to participate and I would add in order to address some of the issues that Councilman Rountree has mentioned, which I also share with him, I don't know if our Community Development Department has been in this loop, but I would suggest that they now should be. De Weerd: Well -- and I did mention to the parties when we all got together the county should be part of this discussion and I still believe that. Mr. Rountree. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 14 of 23 Rountree: Madam Mayor, I would just add to that that this should be the county's discussion, but they have a way of having things filter down. I'm okay with moving forward with staff spending some time on this. I don't think staff should be doing any analytical work for the folks that are involved. I think they should be reviewing what work is being done and provide respectful and thorough analysis of that and comments and seek comments back. I think that information should come to Council. I believe it should be done in short order with minimal expense on all parties. I know that's been an issue in the past. You have spent a lot of money and got nowhere. I understand studies cost money and I understand Becky's hourly rate is one to be respected, as well as the rest of the legal folks that are involved. So, moving forward at post haste I can tell you I believe you understand where I'm coming from. If you don't maybe we can speak afterwards, but it's going to have to be way more commitment and reflect the ability of the City of Meridian not to incur a major liability. De Weerd: Does the district president or Mr. Centers have anything you would like to add? If you could, please, state your name and address for the record. Hamilton: I'm Gordon Hamilton and I live at 3496 South Arcaro, Meridian, Idaho. De Weerd: Thank you, Gordon. Hamilton: And I just want to express my thanks to Madam Mayor and to the City Council for giving us this time today and that's really all I have to say Rountree: Thank you. Hamilton: Thank you. De Weerd: Thank you. Hi, Lee. Centers: Lee Centers. 3770 South Linder. Thanks for hearing what we had to say and, hopefully, we can come up with a resolution. I'd like to be involved and hope that we can develop that area someday and thanks again. De Weerd: Thank you. Mr. Barry. Barry: Madam Mayor, thank you for the dialogue and I appreciate Council hearing this item also and I do appreciate and support the efforts of the district, Mr. Centers, Mr. Hansen, and all the other agencies and property owners that have been involved in this behind the scenes. We have -- I do have answers to some of the critical questions that staff would need to have and I think the district would appreciate as it relates to annexation, but there is one outstanding that I'd like to get some guidance on so that we can manage expectations going forward. So, first I'd like to just repeat back what I think I understood with regard to the annexation issue, since we seem to have permission to continue our work with the entities involved. The first one is annexation required and I understand the answer to be yes. The second question will -- will annexation be Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 15 of 23 required of all people at the same time and heard yes to that. Also what I don't know is regarding the consent to annex, how many is enough. That would be important, because I see that as a major show stopper at the very beginning of this. If annexation is tied to extension of services and the Council is uncomfortable with a certain number that are not willing to annex, that -- that could solve this situation at the very onset. So, I would appreciate some guidance. I know that's a difficult question and I'm sorry to pose that to you and particularly at this stage of the game. If you'd like we can come up with something in the interim, but I'm afraid that there would be a lot of time expended to find -- only to find out an answer that might not be favorable to the Council at a later date. So, I guess I would turn it over to you with the hope that maybe you could enlighten us on that subject. De Weerd: Thank you, Tom. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I guess to follow the form and format of our legislature, 66 and 2/3rds would be the upper number I would shoot for and whatever might be less, but a super majority. think critical to that, though, is that the folks that are being asked understand what that means, because we know there is a lot of nonconforming uses. We know there is going to be fees involved. We don't know which ones. If we did it as a group it might be less expensive than if we do it on an individual basis. Those are the kinds of things I think the legal and staff need to work out, so they can approach the people with a fair and thorough explanation of what it means to them, so they can voice a legitimate response. De Weerd: Pete? Friedman: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I think those are good points and as far as, you know, you established a ceiling, I think the statutes establish a floor in terms of the percentages who may or may not be in favor and Mr. Nary and I and Bruce have had a little bit of opportunity to talk about it this afternoon, but it might be that you might want us to come back and do a quick department report here at your next regular meeting just in terms of the legalities of the annexation, so we can address the fee issue, the percentage issue, and that sort of thing. I don't think it would be a long discussion. And, then, as we get more involved in this process, one of the thoughts have had was aside from all the legal requirements for hearings and things like that, it might be beneficial for us to put on some form of a town meeting or town hall kind of what we did for south Meridian and get the departments there and talk about what the implications -- just of annexing into the city are without talking about -- I mean we can talk about sewer assessment, but talk about code compliance and just what it means to be in the City of Meridian. Kind of outside that -- that hearing arena and just do a more informal -- build that into the process as we move forward. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 16 of 23 De Weerd: Well, Pete, have you been involved when we did Edinburgh and Vienna Woods? Bird: No. Friedman: That predated me. De Weerd: That predated you. Friedman: Yeah. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: Those were -- those were set in place -- the annexation was set in place before the sewer was ever given to them and they put in their own water. So, it's -- this is a completely different realm. De Weerd: I understand that, but staff did meet with the residents prior to the annexation -- Bird: Yes, we did. De Weerd: -- and laid it out. There were good questions and dialogues and certainly that's what we need to be prepared to talk with the residents about. Mr. Nary, were you involved in that? Nary: Yes, Madam Mayor. De Weerd: Okay. So, maybe we can put our heads together in that regard, too. But I think that's a great idea, Pete, to bring it back in our department report and kind of talk about the expectations, legalities, there is classifications A, B and C and all kinds of stuff that keeps the legal profession employed. Nary: Awesome. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: Not to volunteer somebody who is not present in the room to defend himself, but my recollection would be that possibly Steve Siddoway might have been involved in Planning and Zoning at the time of Vienna Woods and might have some knowledge there. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 17 of 23 Nary: Madam Mayor and Members of the Council, Councilman Zaremba, the -- one of t_he public meetings that we attended Caleb actually managed the -- Zaremba: Okay. Nary: -- that particular process and we -- you might obviously recall, Councilman, Caleb handled this as well. We had 32 parcels about three or four years ago that were enclaves within the city, we ultimately annexed I think 28 or 29 of those parcels. Caleb also had sort of managed that process. So, I think in advance of a discussion maybe at the workshop on the 13th possibly of just what some of the process and legalities are between Pete and Caleb and myself and Bruce and we can kind of at least lay out some of that process with you as we work, you know, parallel with this -- you know, other process along with everything. But that might be a date we could bring something back to you as a department report. De Weerd: Okay. Friedman: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, yeah, I think, you know, we can first hit those legalities kind of, you know, identifying what process we are using and how -- and, actually, it may be two after reading the statutes. I'm not sure. I haven't had a chance to speak with Mr. Nary about that. They might be two parallel annexation applications, if you will. And, then, I think once we can do that and before we engage the community there, then, allow all of us on staff in our discussions with the district and so forth to build just a work plan just, you know, kind of a plan for moving forward and, then, you know, the town hall meeting, whatever, might be one element of it and a discussion about cost and infrastructure cost and assessments and things like that might be another, so -- De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Barry. Barry: Thank you, Madam Mayor. And that is similar to the meeting that we worked with Meridian Heights Water and Sewer Association at that time several years ago. We had that very meeting. We had a neighborhood meeting on annexation and addressed those questions and that's what helped the district or the negotiations at the time and helped with getting the consent to annex forms and those sorts of things and we had planning representation at that meeting. I think also legal representation. So, it sounds like something like that after the staff report would be something that would need to happen again anyways. So, I heard a ceiling of 66 and 2/3rds. You know, I think Pete kind of touched on it. I'm -- if that's the ceiling and we have got some flexibility, I think that's good enough for us to put something together I think going forward and, then, we will take the information that comes out of the staff report and, then, plug it in. There is one other question that I did want to ask and that is I want to get clarification that the annexation -- the actual process of annexation will include all properties at the same time coming into the city, whatever that time is, not a phased approach. I believe that's what I heard. That question has been asked of me to ask the Council. So, we know how to put together a proposal going forward. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 18 of 23 De Weerd: Phased approach? No. Hoaglun: Madam Mayor and Tom, when you say all properties, does that include farm ground or are we talking just subdivision property? Barry: We are talking about the properties that are in play at the moment, which I understand to be Mr. Hansen's property, Mr. Center's property, and the Meridian Heights and Kentucky Ridge Subdivision and potentially anyone else who wants to come on as part of this process. Bird: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Bird. Bird: My take would be on that -- who is receiving -- whose sewer are we receiving and that's when we start receiving their sewer, then, they come -- and they become annexed. De Weerd: I think it's probably cleaner to just do it all at one time. Bird: Yeah. Barry: I appreciate the answer and that will help guide the discussion going forward. I believe those are all the questions I have and I stand for any questions you may have of me or the staff. Rountree: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Tom, just a guesstimate of time that's going to be involved. Staff time. Staff: Oh. Are you looking hour or months? De Weerd: Well, they said ashort -- Rountree: Preferably not years. De Weerd: A short time frame, Tom. Barry: How about we do this -- De Weerd: Or how many slides. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 19 of 23 Barry: Yeah. That would be -- okay. Now, when are we going to stop that. Okay. All right. Here we go. I understand that the district and Mr. Centers have some time frames that they are working under that take them through the end of this year. My suggestion is because those time frames are important to them, that staff attempt to work between now and the rest of the year to get them to some meaningful and substantive position and, then, bring that back to the City Council. So, I guess what I would ask for at this point in time is you to allow staff to work between now and December 31st to show significant progress and, then, come back to you in a report, hopefully, a joint report and, then, at that point you can make an assessment if it is worth continuing our time on this particular project and proposal or if we should just make the decision, then, to part ways. So, I can't, Mr. Rountree, at the moment scope the work yet to know how many hours of staff time will be involved. It will probably be noteworthy. But if we can come to a resolution between now and the end of December -- and much of the work has been done based upon past activity by both the city staff and the district, but if we can get to the end of the year to work on a good proposal I would certainly be appreciative of that and think that that would be a significant amount of time for us to at least show you some sort of major progress on the proposal. De Weerd: Becky. McKay: Madam Mayor, I just want to assure the Council that, you know, we will. be participating and trying to bring forth information for Mr. Barry, so that they are not doing the calculating and, you know, what -- budgeting for the sewer district, budgeting for Mr. Centers, you know, that we try to work out as much as we can amongst the two parties and provide him summary information, you know, and if the staff determines we can't do that or we can do that, then, we know where we are. Heather Cunningham on behalf of both the district and Mr. Centers has a closing statement just quick, please, if you would entertain that. Hoaglun: And, Madam Mayor, before Becky leaves, Tom's discussion there about coming back at the end of the year, first of January, whatever that works out and saying, okay, here is where we are and we can kind of have an interim -- does that work for you? McKay: Yes, sir. Hoaglun: Okay. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: Just between Tom and Mrs. McKay, I guess, just to be sure what the deliverable is, the objective is that at some point we are going for a full annexation and there will be issues that need to be resolved that don't necessarily need to be resolved -- what we are going for is a contract that may have some time period to it for resolution Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 20 of 23 of deficiencies or, you know, whether they are Planning and Zoning or Public Works related deficiencies and I'm -- McKay: Correct. Zaremba: -- looking at the rest of the Council, we are -- the deliverable back to us the 2nd of January or whatever -- whenever it is -- some thought about what that contract would be, identifying a timeline, identifying the things that need to be fixed, identify who is paying for them -- is that what we are looking for? McKay: Madam Mayor, Councilman Zaremba, I think we may be able to glean some information from the city of Boise. They set forth a 15 year plan -- De Weerd: You're not supposed to say the B word in this council chambers. McKay: I wasn't aware of that. Rountree: Our eastern suburb. McKay: Okay. To the east. But they sat down and seta 15 year plan with Golden Dawn Mobile Home. Subdivision and the .Barberton Sewer Association that had a pond down by the Boise River, lagoons, very similar, that were in excess of 40 years old and they set kind of a road map and goals and guidelines as far as liability, what was going to be done as far as upgrades, who was paying for what and have I read through their public works commission minutes and, you know, they have a very definitive plan and I think -- I can give that information to Mr. Barry. I have also talked to John Tensen, the public works director, and got input from him and guidance on how -- how we should address this and so I think -- I think that's beneficial. Don't want to recreate the wheel if we don't have to. De Weerd: Okay. Heather? Cunningham: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. My name is Heather Cunningham. I practice with Davison and Copple in downtown Boise. I represent Mr. Centers in this action. I'm not intending to give a closing. I can't speak for the district, but I can say that the attorney for the district, Susan Buxton and I, have worked very hard together to try and move away from litigation towards settlement and the biggest concern I have in leaving here today, because I really appreciate everything that's been said by everyone and I wasn't intending to say anything myself, but I have this concern based on the way the question was phrased -- I realize that annexation is a primary concern. We all agree and understand that. But it's one of the many variables as I'm sure you know and I'm trying to stay at a 30,000 foot perspective, I don't want to lay down the gauntlet and draw the line in the sand and have you say if you can't bring back a plan that involves annexation of every property in both subdivisions and the district's 16 acres and the Hansen 16 acres and Mr. Centers' 192 acres all on the same day that you won't look at it. Because if that is the way it is, it probably isn't going to be Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 21 of 23 totally productive. And so I just want to make sure we are all on the same page here going forward. Some of the workshops that we have had together -- and I didn't participate in the one yesterday, but I mean between Centers and the district, we have talked about all kinds of things, like a contract that involves annexation of the subdivision properties over time, maybe starting with one subdivision before the other or not. Maybe starting with the Centers property and having voluntary annexation of some of the subdivision properties over time. Different ways to incentivize annexation, whether or not we can do it if there is 60 percent level or not. How to get there. I'm sure you understand that there is all these variables, because it may not be possible with these older subdivisions and the reality the way it is to tackle sewer, water, annexation, pond condition, everything else all at once. What I'm asking is if we come to you with a plan that did have a road map for how and when annexation would occur and that would end up with all these properties annexed, but maybe not all at the same time, would you look at it. Because, if not, I don't know that we are setting a realistic expectation going forward. Does that -- De Weerd: I guess, Heather, as long as the plan has an enforcement tool and that's -- that's the concern is once you get too far down the road and -- memories and short term -- I know what I don't want to do is have a patchwork annexation like we did in Carol Sub where you have neighbors that are -- some are in the city and the one across the street is in the county and the one next door is in the city and -- that's -- that's a mess. Cunningham: I understand that. De Weerd: And it is a mess for law enforcement, because we are supposed to respond to city and the county is supposed to -- the sheriff is supposed to respond to the county and you have them next door to each other it can get really cumbersome. Cunningham: And, Madam Mayor, I fully appreciate that, I just want to say I'm not speaking here for the district, I'm just saying, you know, as a litigator I like to fight and the only reason I'm here is because I honestly believe that the best solution for the city, the district, and Mr. Centers and Mr. Hansen is to craft this global approach going down this road. De Weerd: And we like this new you, Heather. Cunningham: Thank you. But we have to be realistic that everybody has some limits, so what I have encouraged the district and Centers and what I'm asking the city as well is if we don't draw hard and fast lines in the sand like you have to do everything at one time, it will be a lot easier to craft a solution. So, I'm just asking you -- and I'm not sure if -- coming before City Council is not my forte, I'm used to coming before the court. But what I'm asking is if you're open to the possibility that if Susan Buxton and I and Bill Nary and the district and everybody can craft something that allays your concern about enforcement and that results in at some point in time all those properties coming in, are you open to the possibility that they come in in some sort of phasing or tiered, possibly, but I don't know that it's realistic to do it all at once. Does that make sense? Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 22 of 23 Hoaglun: Madam Mayor? Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun. Hoaglun: I like the term road map, because I think it gives us a way to envision how this thing will flow down the road and for years to come. I think the Mayor touched on it, if there is a plan that is workable for everybody that -- and especially when I look at the vacant land, because I don't want the developed land -- when they come in they are all coming in and -- but if there is a plan that brings the other property that hasn't developed yet, but it's going to be annexed in the city at certain points and those are things that are yet to be worked out, like the Mayor said, if there is an enforcement mechanism or some legal mechanism and leave that to lawyers to figure out, that if Mr. Centers decides an offer comes along and he's going to sell all his property and go off to Arizona in the wintertime, that agreement is still in place with the city and we don't have a big fight on our hands. So, from my perspective we can -- I think we can discuss these things and see what options are there and as long as we have -- have things to make sure it does move forward as we end up agreeing to the plan. So, that's -- that's just one of four. Cunningham: Thank you. De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba? Zaremba: Mr. Hoaglun pretty well identified what I would say, that the one thing that think I do understand is the Hansen's probably have to be first. I think they are the key to the contiguity. There is no pathway to annexation unless they are first. So, it would still have to go in logical order and I would certainly look at a plan that had big blocks that didn't all come at once. I think the Mayor and others have said if we are talking about a more developed section, neighbors having the option, that's not -- that's a no starter for me. De Weerd: Thank you. Cunningham: Well, thank you again for letting me talk and for your spirit of cooperation. Zaremba: Thank you. De Weerd: Okay. Tom, was there anything else? Barry: No, Madam Mayor. That's all we have. Thank you. Meridian City Council October 30, 2012 Page 23 of 23 De Weerd: Okay. Well, if there is nothing further and certainly if there is questions afterwards please don't hesitate. Council, at this time I would entertain a motion to adjourn this meeting. Zaremba: Madam Mayor? De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba. Zaremba: With appreciation to all parties, both in and out of the city and the staff that has put some good thought into this, I move we adjourn. Rountree: Second. De Weerd: Motion and second to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 6:16 P.M. (AUDIO RECORDING ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) MAYOR T Y DE WEERD ATTEST: CITY `- 9 ~>% / 'I / Zo/ 2 DATE APPROVED ~QpTUU n LCbs\ a~ Ciry of IDIRN ioaxo SEAL W Y~ ~~ it a T0.f ASV0.E