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HomeMy WebLinkAboutOctober 16, 2003 P & Z Comm Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 90 of 114 Zaremba: I think the end goal is in the best interest of the city and I realize overruling it is not in accordance with the statutes, but that's the reason why things go to public hearings and there is a decision process. There are times when it is reasonable and in the best interest of the city to overrule something that is actually correct. Borup: Okay. Well stated. We have a motion and a second. All in favor? Any opposed? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 12. Public Hearing: CUP 03-042 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a new Carl's Jr. restaurant with drive-thru service window by Clayton Jones - north of Intersection of South Meridian Road, East Central Drive and South Main Street: Borup: Okay. Is it time to leave or do we want to have one more? Our last item is Public Hearing CUP 03-042, request for a Conditional Use Permit for a new Carl's Jr. restaurant and drive-thru window service by Clayton Jones and we'd like to open this hearing at this time and, Mr. Siddoway, do you have a report? Siddoway: I do, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Members of the Commission. This is an application for Carl's Jr. There have been two previous applications for Carl's Jr. at this location. I will give you more details on that in a moment. It is located right on the split of Main Street and Meridian Road. The KFC-A&W site sits right in the south corner and the old Kentucky Fried Chicken site, which is on the north end of that same property, would be demolished to make way for the proposed Carl's Jr. You should have a staff report that is -. has the re-notice date of October 16th. That's tonight. You will recall this was on the first agenda of this month, but was opened and continued or re-noticed, I should say, sorry, for lack of proper posting on the site. It was properly posted for this night and so it will be heard. When the A&W and KFC project was proposed in the south corner of the site, one of the conditions of approval was that they abandon the drive-thru use of the existing KFC. The proposed application tonight proposes a new building with a new drive-thru and it's in a different location than the previous drive-thru was, so that one thing the Commission needs to decide is whether the proposed site plan meets the intent of that condition of approval. This is an aerial photo of the site. It's, actually, a few years old. The new KFC-A&W is not showing up, but you can see the existing building in this location here. Taco Bell is across the drive aisle to the north. This is the proposed site plan. North is to the right on this drawing. This is Meridian Road. This is Main Street. This is the new KFC-A&W building, and this would be the proposed Carl's Jr. project. This project is a planned development. It's required to be a planned development, because of having two principal uses on the same site. As a planned development they are required to have two amenities. Let's see if I have a picture of those. Oh. I have several site plans in here. "II just flip through them for you. This one is the proposed landscape plan for the project. This was the previous site plan that was heard earlier this year. It had a drive-thru that cut in front of the building and everyone had to cut across. Pedestrians wanting to access the front door had to go Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 91 of 114 across the drive-thru to access the front door. That was one of the reasons it was denied. I believe this has the wrong date in the title, but this was the original proposal, which had the drive-thru on the east side, and was a much larger building than what they are currently proposing. These are the proposed elevations. You should have in your packets a copy of their proposed Welcome to Meridian monument sign. As a planned development, as I was saying, they are required to have two amenities. The first one that they are proposing is a Welcome to Meridian gateway sign for the city that they are offering. The second one that they are proposing is a memorial bench and three flag set next to it. They did submit a revised site plan dated September 16th. I wanted to note that the staff report is based on that plan. I wasn't in the office this afternoon when they were putting this together. It doesn't look like the final version got inserted, but the only difference -- the only substantial difference is that they shifted the speaker further north, so that they can get a couple additional cars stacking depth in here and allow for seven cars to be stacked at the same time. What I would like to do is go through the special considerations that begin on page five. There are three of them. The first one has to do with the amenities. The proposed location of the monument sign is right here in the south corner of the property. It is a nice sign staff feels that the applicant is proposing. It's a substantial one. I can't remember the dimensions off the top of my head. But the issue is that the city is trying to come up with gateway signage for the city. They have not yet settled on what the design of them should be. While this is a nice sign, it mayor may not match what's done in the future. I guess whether or not that's a problem is the first question. To make this easy, I have been in conversation with the -- a couple of members that have been working on gateways and they have asked for a little bit of time to finalize their own design. I have also talked with the applicant and they were in agreement to what I have proposed in the staff report. Maybe we can give the applicant a chance to verify that, but the proposal is to -- instead of just building the gateway sign right away, to have them dedicate an easement for a gateway sign and, then, give us until the end -- give the city until the end of September to come up with the city's design. The applicant would also be asked to submit a cash bond for the value of the sign and its construction that they were proposing and, then, the city could use those funds to build the city's design of a sign. But in order to keep this from going on and on forever and giving ourselves a deadline, I put in there if the city hasn't figured it out by the end of September, that that money would be returned to the development, they would put in the sign that they proposed, and have it in by the end of November of '04. I would ask that the applicant talk about the -- that proposed sign and whether they are amenable to that arrangement tonight, as well as some of their ideas for the materials, colors, and lighting that may be part of that. There is also an issue that I bring up that -- they are proposing to -- and I'm sure they are flexible on this, but the draft that they are showing says established 1893. I question whether we wanted to -- and that is the date we have on our wall right here. We are also, this year, celebrating our incorporation date, which is 1903 to 2003 and I thought maybe the incorporation date was the date that we should be showing on the sign as incorporated in 1903. The second amenity, moving on, is right in front of the store on the west side where the -- right in this location. They have three flagpoles and a memorial bench and I have asked them to address tonight what that is, what's memorializing, et cetera. The second special consideration on page six, which I thought you would want some Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 92 of 114 additional detail on, was the prior reasons for denial and there were basically three reasons for denial. Let me step back for just a moment and say each of the prior two were recommended for approval by the Planning and Zoning Commission and, then, each of the prior two were, then, denied by City Council. The reasons cited by City Council for denial on the first one, which is this one, was inadequate parking, especially for employee parking. I have shown that -- done a calculation based on their proposed site plan that shows that with the combined square footage of the KFC-A&W and the Carl's Jr., that 26 spaces will be required and on the site they are proposing 52, which is exactly double. So, they seem to have met that reason for denial. The second reason was the drive-thru configuration. That first version had a stacking depth for only two cars. The second one had stacking depth for five cars, but, as I mentioned, required patrons to cross through the drive-thru to get to the front door. In their new proposal, they have increased it to seven cars -- seven cars and have removed the requirement for people parking here to cross over to get to the front door. They have tried to address that one. The final one is congestion and this is a finding that the Commission will need to make. It was found that the proposal was incompatible due to traffic congestion on the site. They have tried to address this one by adding stack space in the drive-thru. The second thing they have done is you will recall the others exited right here, which is very close to both the exits of the Taco Bell drive-thru and this drive aisle and this curb cut on Meridian Road. They have wrapped it around so it's more central to the site to try and ease some of that and so that's a -- probably the main question for the Commission, if you find that the -- that they have sufficiently addressed the congestion. The last item, number three, is the street buffers. Standard ordinance would require a 35-foot buffer for entry corridors along Meridian Road and along Main Street. They are proposing measuring from the property line in to the curb a 10-foot buffer along Meridian Road and measuring from this property line in to the curb eight feet along Main Street. This alternative compliance was granted to KFC. Theirs was as narrow as seven feet on the approved plans. I believe it was built, actually, with a little more, but the approved plans show seven feet, so based on that precedent, we are recommending approval of that alternative compliance. All the site-specific requirements are listed. We believe they have sufficiently addressed parking, stacking depth and the drive-thru versus pedestrian issues and if the Commission and Council find that their proposed site plan also addresses congestion adequately, we would recommend approval and I stand for any questions. Borup: Questions for Mr. Siddoway? I just want to comment that the -- I thought the report was excellent. It makes it really easy when you go through and give a summary - _ especially where this has been an ongoing project. I just thought it was an excellent staff report. Siddoway: Thank you. Borup: Any other questions from the Commission? Zaremba: I would second that. I think the one thing that concerns me is the exit from the drive-thru. It's pointing almost right at the drive-up window of the Taco Bell. You Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 93 of 114 have already stated that they have more than adequate parking. I would like to see them lose these two parking spaces and force this traffic to just go out this way. Is that a possibility? I don't see those cars completing a u-turn in one move. They would be into the lane where cars are at the Taco Bell. Borup: Well, I think there is enough room, isn't there, to do a u-turn? Zaremba: I didn't see on my drawing the width -- the total distance from where these cars would stack to there. It just looks like that would be a tough u-turn and I'd just as soon not turn them towards the Taco Bell in the first place. Borup: If they go towards Meridian Road they are still going to be crossing a lane of traffic and at the angle they are going to be crossing it for a longer distance, rather than a right angle. Maybe the applicant would like to speak to that, too. It looks to me like we have -- yeah, about 20 feet before you hit the centerline. Zaremba: That may be enough. Borup: Okay. Any other questions from any Commissioners? Would the applicant like to make their presentation? Jones: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, Clayton Jones, at 14071 West Rochester in Boise. Thank you for allowing me to make a new presentation and I appreciate -- I appreciate the staff report. As you, I thought itwas very well written and, aCtually, I believe this is the first time that staff has actually supported the project, which I appreciate. The reason why we are here again is because when we were -- when we were denied the last time at City Council, we asked the question to the Council please help us out, you know, what can we do that could possibly get this project approved. Because of that, Bill Nary gave some specifics, went ahead, and said that he'd flip around the building, do this, and increase the stack and he should be an architect. Anyway, so with his recommendations, we, actually, did meet with Bill after the fact, and -- to see if we had kind of met the criteria that he was looking for and without saying that he would approve it, he indicated that -- that this could be acceptable. I won't presuppose -- you know, I won't say that they will approve it or not, but, anyway, it seems like we had some support. Looking at the site specific, we did -- we were able to increase the stack to seven cars with the staff's help and I appreciate their help on that as well, which in looking even at the KFC project, the KFC only has three cars, except -- on their fourth car they are actually in their parking lot and so we have seven cars stacked behind the speaker post, which we think will go -- will alleviate the -- any possibility of congestion over there. We have proposed this time around a 2,500 square foot building and I just want to assure you that it is a little bit larger than the last proposal, which was 2,100 square foot. In our opinion, that particular prototype that Carl's uses is pretty inefficient in the kitchen, so the increase in size we made was just the kitchen and storage areas. The dining room still only has 46 seats, which even in Boise standards only requires 23 parking spaces. We have, as staff has indicated, doubled the parking requirements of the City of Meridian and we think that it's more than Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 94 of 114 adequate. To deal with your question regarding the u-turn. Clinton, from BRS Architects is looking at the u-turn there and it looks like it's more than 22 feet radius and he's indicating that that's adequate for a u-turn. A couple of points on the amenities for the project. T he Welcome to Meridian sign, we are actually -- we are kind of proud of the sign. Golden West designed it. We estimate it to be about 5,000 dollars in cost and we are more than willing to put that up in a bond or whatever that you folks would want to do with that. You're welcome to use your own design. You have -- staff has requested that we secure an easement for the sign and we will work to do that. I can't guarantee that that will happen, but we will work to secure the easement and I would ask the Commission that should we not be able to secure the proper easement, that you allow us to spend the 5,000 dollars allotted to the sign on another appropriate amenity for the site, perhaps approved by staff? Borup: The easement needs to come from the property owner? Jones: The property owner has indicated that he's willing to do an easement. However, we have not approached KFC, who leases that space. I don't know if that would be considered common area or not. I know that my neighbors don't want me there, so I don't know if they will help me out or help out the City of Meridian in this case, but -- Borup: Isn't all that area maintained -- Jones: It is all maintained. Borup: -- by one -- I mean KFC is not maintaining that area, are they? They are so they are leasing the building and the ground. Jones: That's what the property owner indicated to me today. Borup: So, then, you would be maintaining your own landscaping, too, then? Jones: We haven't entered into a full -- full-blown lease as of yet. We have got a letter of an intent so, that all is to be determined. I would assume so, but we have not -- Borup: That's a little different than we have usually seen on commercial projects. Jones: Usually some common area maintenance. Exactly. Borup: Yes. Jones: The owner of the property is here, maybe he might be able to address that for you, but, regardless, we have -- we have allotted 5,000 dollars towards the sign, whether it's your City of Meridian sign, we would be happy to do that, or another suitable amenity for the site. The next amenity was the three flags and memorial bench. Unfortunately, these last couple of years there is plenty to memorialize, so I don't think that we would have trouble with that. You know, first thought, of course, is the veterans Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 9S of 114 that have lost their lives in the war on terrorism, the folks that have lost their lives in 911, or veterans in general that support the county. Any of those would be, I'm sure, appropriate memorials for the -- for the gateway here to the city. Borup: Would you be looking at personalizing that a little bit more, like for the veterans of Meridian or something like that? Jones: Absolutely. Absolutely. Borup: Okay. Go on. I'm sorry. Jones: I have been out to the site many times, you know, for obvious reasons. I have a vested interest in it and, you know, at the beginning -- now, what, a year and a half -- about a year and a half that KFC's been open they were really busy at the beginning and the site was very very congested and anybody that went over there knew that. The stacking was a problem. The parking was a problem. But in the restaurant business we know, you know, eventually, the honeymoon is over and you establish a sales pattern at the restaurant. I think our Carl's Jr. restaurants at the beginning of our life here in Boise we had serious honeymoon periods, as the Krispy Kremeis right now. It probably wasn't as big as they had anticipated. There are problems at the beginning of any restaurant chain. This will be, potentially, our seventh restaurant, so we don't anticipate a huge bump in sales as we did in the very beginning. Garden City opened up pretty steady. We have just maintained an even keel. I don't anticipate a huge problem and congestion. I snapped some pictures for you, as I'm sure -- these were taken on Thursday lunchtime and Friday lunchtime. I have tried to -- wanted to represent -- Borup: We have got some in our packet from earlier. Are these the ones? Jones: No. I think those might have been turned in by someone else. I just wanted to show that -- that during the lunchtime - and these were taken between 12:00 and 1 :00. I had a bunch of them, but I didn't want to -- didn't want to waste too much of your time. This is exiting the restaurant. There is another one on the entrance where that's -- actually, that's the Taco Bell. They have -- I believe at that time they had six cars in their drive-thru and they were wrapped around the drive-thru appropriately. It seems like people have figured out how they are supposed to do the Taco Bell thing and it, actually, seems like they are a little bit busier than they were the last time around. On the KFC, this one on this side, you can't see it, but there is, actually, two -- two cars stacked in their drive-thru and when I observed the most cars that got stacked back up were to the fourth car, which blocked their first two parking spaces. If this is any indication as to how the business is going on a Thursday and a Friday, which should be a -- you know, probably the busier days, there is not a lot of congestion on that side of the lot. On the Taco Bell lot, they are using the drive-thru appropriately and there was always parking available. As far as adding another restaurant -- actually taking down that -- the restaurant that's there that's very -- in an awkward location, there is not adequate .- you know, the parking is messed up and everything in the middle. By Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 96 of 114 taking that down and building the new restaurant with the new appropriate site plan is, actually, going to continue to improve the site and I think that we have, actually, solved the congestion issues as well, so -- Borup: Do you know what the difference in parking spaces are between what's there now and what is proposed? Jones: You know last time around Billy Ray did the presentation. I believe there are 36 or 37 spots. Borup: On the site right now. Jones: On the site right now and we are asking another 16, 18 slots, for a total of 52. With our restaurant being just 46 seats, we are encouraging the folks to use the drive- thru and I think that that will help the -- help the parking issue and it will not -- it will not hurt the project as far as congestion. You know, we are putting out about, you know, one car every minute through the drive-thru and with one cara minute on ours, one for KFC, one for Taco Bell, so it's just three cars each minute and it's -- that's not an incredible amount of traffic. With the improvements and with the staff's recommendation, I would ask that you approve our third try at this, knowing that we may have some support at City Council. I would stand for any questions. Borup: Questions for Mr. Clayton? Zaremba: What really appeals to me is fixing the driveway going out onto Meridian, which you also had in the second plan last time. Jones: Yes. We took care of that for you. Zaremba: That's a very important thing to me. Let's see. Have you decided not to go with a play area? Jones: There is no room for a play area. Zaremba: Okay. I have no other questions. Centers: Mr. Chairman? Borup: Commissioner Centers. Centers: These parking spaces here, are they going to be your customer parking? Jones: We had -- really, I anticipate -- and that's where a lot of the KFC is parking right now. A lot of their customers are parking up against the old KFC building. How it's configured, I'm going to imagine that those are going to be for KFC parking -- KFC quests. I'm envisioning the parking down here on the low side to be employee parking. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 97 of 114 Centers: That's what it says on the plan, but it didn't have anything on the plan for these. Jones: Got you. Centers: And I'm very aware of Mr. Nary's hang up with drive-thrus and walking across and he's going to look at that right away. If customers are parking there and going through the drive-thru to get to the entrance right here -- correct? Is that where the entrance is? Jones: That could possibly happen. However, if you'd care to put a condition, I would be glad to put a -- Centers: Well, you're going to have to identify those, you know -- Jones: As KFC? Zaremba: Yes. I was going to say a low fence or something, or just a rail across there that would make it more difficult. Jones: I, actually, think there is one already identified. Siddoway: Mr. Chairman? Borup: Mr. Siddoway. Siddoway: There is one already identified and required on that plan. It is -- on the latest plan it is -- Borup: Number 16. Note number 16. Siddoway: Note 16, a 30-inch high continuous decor safety rail. Centers: Right. Right so they can't get through there. Siddoway: Right. They wouldn't be able to cut across. Centers: And I guess, for the record, , have been to McDonald's across the street and, you know, I like your plan and I think it will fly. These people coming in to get into the drive-thru -- and I have seen it happen at McDonald's, I have witnessed it, kids running out to go get in the car and these cars are -- not whizzing - coming in there at a pretty good little speed to get into the drive-thru and kids coming out -- bam. McDonald's, right across the street, the same way, except worse and I would much rather -- and I will go on record with Bill Nary, I would much rather walk through parked cars to get into the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 98 of 114 entrance than to have to come across with my kids and be in danger here with the cars coming in. Get my drift? Jones: I do. Centers: McDonald's is a perfect example, if you have been into McDonald's. It is bad news. Right, Leslie? Mathes: Yes. Borup: You know, since this first -- and I haven't been in McDonald's, but since this first came up, I have looked at a lot of drive-thrus over the last year -- Centers: Yes. Me, too. Borup: -- for some reason, every time I'm at one, that's what I think about. Centers: But Nary's thing, when he was on the Commission here, he talked about the Arby's that he would never wish he wouldn't have approved it, you know, out on Eagle Road at Crossroads. I'd much rather walk through parked cars than -- with my kids and holding their hand, but - Borup: But there is -- I mean there is some sites that have better parking layouts, but there is an awful lot of them that are much worse by far. Centers: Drive-thrus are dangerous I don't care what you do with them. Period. I think they are necessary. You mentioned the Krispy Kreme. I was there at 7:00 this morning and it's the biggest mistake that ever happened to this city. I don't know how they let that happen. Borup: They? You were one of the they. Centers: No. I'm talking about the state of Idaho putting up the sign exit onto Florence. Borup: Oh. Oh, that. Centers: You don't know where Florence Avenue is. That's a huge disaster waiting to happen. Zaremba: Well, in this case you have a very odd-shaped lot, triangular, narrow, between two streets and - it's tough to find a configuration that's going to work, given the constraints around it. I see this as an improvement over the previous one. Jones: I think we did it. Centers: Well, as you said, you got the staff to go along with it. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 99 of 114 Zaremba: Did you get any sense from Councilman Nary that a drive-thru would just flat be unapproved ever? Jones: He did not say that. Zaremba: Okay. That's some we had questioned, because of the previous -- I guess it's the development agreement, whether that was a blanket statement forever or not. Borup: Okay. Anything else? Does that conclude? Jones: Great. Thank you very much. Centers: Thank you. Borup: Do we have anyone else to testify on this? Now is the time. Come up. Hofferber: Hi, I'm Skip Hofferber, I'm the owner of Vista Corp and I have the Taco Time behind the Chevron. I have a problem also. Maybe the pictures that you spoke of -- are these -- Borup: You're across the street you're saying? Hofferber: Yes. Borup: All right. Hofferber: Those are the pictures that I took, again, some of the same days that -- on the back, which you don't have, probably, I dated them and everything. It's lunchtime on the 26th of September from 11 :45 until 12:30 and, then, at 5:45 to 6:30 on the same day. Now, you can look at those pictures and I don't know where their excess parking is, but they are parked all around that old KFC building. There is a truck in the back illegally parked not -- which would actually be if you put up the -- the one that -- the Carl's layout -- yes. There you go. They park inhere, exiting, where there is not -- currently no parking designated, they park there. I have seen them parking in the drive- thru there. These are all parking and these pictures all show this and this is filled here, so I'm kind of wondering with another business and with a drive-thru, where all this additional parking is going to come from, because all those pictures were taken on the 6th, which, again, is, you know, one of their busier days. When I came here this evening at6:35, it was the same way, on a Wednesday night. You know, they say they meet the requirements, I understand that, but the reality is what those pictures show, that there is across-easement parking and cross-easement access, I would assume. They only show the two businesses. You have four businesses there that only have one, two access in and out of that whole -- and I don't know what's there, acre plus and, then, whatever Bolo's and Taco Bell is on. On my property, I have four accesses onto Progress, onto Main Street, and two onto -- whatever the road is that they call Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 100 of 114 Corporate, when you enter corporate, in between McDonald's and that. I have four accesses and there are only two businesses -- only one with a drive-thru, me, and Chevron, and we have 48 parks with a cross-easement parking and I only seat 48 people. You know, the requirement's there, all of a sudden, you know, with the seats and I don't see where they are going to be getting enough parking here for employees. He said this is for employees, but this is all taken up right now with the customers from KFC-A&W, Bolo's, and Taco Bell, as those pictures show. You know, I'm trying to figure out where -- and this right here, if you look at it -- and I know he said they wrap around, but if you come in Taco Bell's drive-thru, they stack them to here, now you expect a drive-thru for Carl's and both for KFC all to come in here? Because I'm betting more of the traffic comes from this way, where you have only two access points of cars leaving, if you're saying one a minute and you got three drive-thrus, you got three cars every minute trying to get through their parking lot and if they do back up here, then, how do the cars get to the A&W. I just, you know, find it hard -- and I know the Wendy's just opened up and I know the requirements put on them and the stacking and the parking requirements and they have it -- I just think they are trying to squeeze maybe a little too much in here, from what these pictures show, like I say, you go down there anytime at lunchtime and his pictures were taken, you know, maybe a day it was a little slower, but the day I took it, you can see the results. I mean they are -- they are very busy, so -- and you're going to add one more business with eight to ten employees at lunch and dinner? You know, I know that's what we run at my Taco Time, is usually 7:00 to 8:00, and they probably run even more, so I'm kind of wondering where all the parking is really going to come from when it's already filled up, so -- thank you. Borup: Thank you. Do we have anyone else? Atteberry: Chairman, Commissioners, I'm Phil Atteberry, I represent KFC, and this is the third time we have been here for this project. I'd like to address a few of the items that we have concerns with and espeCially the staff report on Page 6 on the prior reasons for denial. Item number B, the drive-thru configuration, if we -- we have a drive- thru here and everybody knows where our drive-thru is and, then, you have another drive-thru for Carl's Jr. coming out here and they do have more stack here, but if they should stack out through here, this is blocked off and there is no way to get into our drive-thru or exit through here and at busy times it is just exactly like the last gentleman said, we are packed. I'm sure all of you have been in there when parking and getting around in this area here is very congested. Borup: And you realize the new design adds two more cars? Atteberry: It does add two more cars. Borup: Okay. Atteberry: But there are times when a drive-thru backs up, even with those two more cars and it just so happens that those times are at your busiest times and that's going to be the busiest time for Taco Bell, the busiest time for KFC, busiest time for Carl's Jr. It's Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 101 of 114 going to be the times when there is going to be the most congestion there. It's not going to be the slow times. Slow times it's not going to be any problem going in there. I think what we need to be addressing is when the busiest is when people are eating lunch and when people are eating dinner. When that happens, that cuts that off and with this new design here, this -- I believe in the prior configurations we had, I believe, at least 25 feet here. This is down to 22 feet between these -- this driveway right here. This is already very difficult to maneuver right now and now that we have lost two to three feet, I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are here, that just adds to the congestion and for this drive-thru to be exiting right in front of Taco Bell's window here, along with cars driving both directions here, that's another congestion point right here. Now, this right here being addressed is great. I believe Jonathan Gibbs has addressed before, that no matter what goes in here, this is going to happen. This entrance is going to be addressed along with -- and, then, on item C -- well, still on item B, they talk about the drive-thru and pedestrians crossing -- not crossing the drive-thru. You have -- this parking right here and this parking right here is 21 of the spaces. Are all these people going to be KFC? I don't think so and are they going to have to -- where are these people -- how are these people going to get into Carl's Jr? Are they going to walk through this drive-thru land with kids or are they going to walk out here on this busy thoroughfare here where cars are exiting Taco Bell, plus going back and forth here? There is just no way for these people right here to go around to this front door. Centers: That's designated as employee parking on the plat. Atteberry: This is designated as employee parking? Centers: Right. Atteberry: How are they going to designate that? Centers: Signs, I guess. Atteberry: There is no customer parking going to be there? Borup: Well, if the employees are parking there, you can only get one car in a space. That's what I feel. Atteberry: Well, I really -- I really question whether that would be signed and designated as employee parking. Borup: So, you think the employees are going to park up there in the handicapped spaces or what? I mean the -- Atteberry: I don't know where they will park. Borup: Okay. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 102 of 114 Atteberry: They will probably park anywhere on the site. Borup: Is that how you have your employees do it? Atteberry: Our employee's park right out here, they park here, and they park back in here. Borup: Okay. Wouldn't it be logical to think that the other business would do the same? Atteberry: That would be .- and having a fence here, you're still - you're going to be crossing the drive-thru lane. I just -- I just can't see this drive-thru -- having three drive- thrus in this small area right here is ever going to work. Zaremba: Okay. What do you think should be there? Atteberry: Well, I think any kind of business without a drive-thru would be perfectly okay. Zaremba: Aren't restaurants going to be -- if you don't have a drive-thru, then, you have people getting out of their car and leaving them there and sitting in the restaurant -- Atteberry: That's correct. Zaremba: -- which means more cars are going to accumulate than a drive-thru would push through. Atteberry: No, you would not have -- if you have people sitting down in 40 seats, you can only get so many people sitting down. A drive-thru is a constant flow of cars coming in there. Borup: So, how much stacking do you usually get on yours? Atteberry: On our drive-thru? Borup: Yes. Atteberry: We, actually, come all the way out to here sometimes. Borup: So, you have got all your customers that are parking here have to go walk through your drive-thru, then. Have to walk through your drive-thru cars. Atteberry: Right. There is parking right here right now along that -- the existing KFC building and we have parking here. Borup: And anyone over here has to cross through the drive-thru. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 103 of 114 Atteberry: Correct, and we have people here that park out front right now, too. On Item G, the congestion, I just -- I just don't see how the congestion has been addressed, anymore so than the other two designs that were denied. Zaremba: I remember the very first time this came to us, there was discussion about how much of the parking is actually Bolo's. Atteberry: Correct. Zaremba: I guess evenings and particularly weekends -- Atteberry: Friday nights -- yes actually, Bolo's spills all the way over -- all the spaces in front of KFC. All of Taco Bell's are used by Bolo's on a Friday night or I imagine tonight the gentleman mentioned that their parking was all full. I'm sure everybody watching the game tonight in Bolo's is part of the reason that was -- all the parking was used up today. Because right now you have three restaurants in there and it is just very congested. Centers: Is the owner of this property the owner of Bolo's also? Atteberry: That's correct, and Taco Bell. Centers: So, all of you lease from the same individual? Atteberry: That's correct. Centers: Is there anything written or otherwise that nothing would be done with this when you built -- or when you occupied the new building? Atteberry: When we occupied the new building, the only thing that was said is the drive- thru had to be abandoned, that the building had to be -- you know, the use permit for the drive-thru had to be abandoned at that time -- Centers: As far as KFC. Atteberry: As far as KFC. Centers: If you have a new building, why would you want the old one anyway? Atteberry: That's correct. Centers: Right. There was nothing ever indicated to you that something else might go there? An ice cream shop, Carl's Jr., or whatever; right? Atteberry: That's correct. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 104 of 114 Centers: And you probably assumed that something would be going there at one time. Atteberry: Oh, we always have. Centers: Yes. Okay. You just don't want the drive-thru. Atteberry: That's correct. Centers: But you want your drive-thru. Atteberry: That's correct. Borup: But your drive-thru has more congestion than this one, from what you just said. Atteberry: Well, my drive-thru does not, because we have all this over here, we come out to here, and these cars can still get out of here from here. Borup: No, they can't. You said you're backed up clear to this -- Atteberry: I said at times we come all the way back out to here. Borup: Right so, these cars can't get in or out, then. Atteberry: At times that's a problem. Borup: Okay. Centers: But I -- don't take me wrong, because I zero in on Bolo's, too and if you have the same owner of all those properties -- Atteberry: That's correct. Centers: -- you should be able to do something about Bolo's parking there, because I know you're absolutely correct, Bolo's takes most of that parking at busy times and I think some of these pictures that were submitted were Bolo cars. Atteberry: That could very well be. I don't know when the pictures were taken. Centers: I don't need the pictures, because I have been by there and, by the way, when you submit pictures, take photos that have date and time on them. Atteberry: I didn't submit those. Centers: Yes. They do me no good. There is no date and time on there. I mean not that I'm calling people liars, but if you had a date and time on the photo, by God, it's fact, then. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page1050f114 Borup: Assuming the date's right. Centers: Pardon? Borup: Assuming the clock is right on the camera. Centers: Yes. That's right, you could -- but, anyway, I agree with you on Bolo's totally. Zaremba: Well -- and my comment I made when this came on the first hearing is I would think it would be agreeable to the owner, certainly, and certainly in your favor to mark some of those parking spaces as like one hour only. Your customers don't stay any longer than that. Atteberry: You can mark them anything you want and I have been doing this restaurant Zaremba: Who would enforce it? Atteberry: Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to -- especially a customer, we are in the service business here, you're sure not going to go out there and tee off a customer - a potential customer that they shouldn't be parking there. That's just not going to happen. Centers: The only way you can address it, it has to be addressed in the lease and, then, you can enforce it and the property owner can with the lessor. Borup: Any other questions? Centers: So, just to be straight, you're opposed it? Borup: Yes. We were wondering. Jones: Were you wondering? Borup: Okay. Thank you. Do we have anyone else? The owner of the property. Come forward. Gibbs: Jonathan Gibbs, 9502 Scorpio in Boise, Idaho. I'm general partner, administrative partner in the G&H Enterprises, which is the owner. You know, there is certainly times on -- I have been watching that property quite a bit since the last year and a half, too, to see the congestion and there are times when KFC has parking even passed where he said it was and there are times that it runs very smooth and there is plenty of parking on the lot and that's the nature of this business. I wanted to say one other thing about that proposed sign to the city. I don't know what we can do there. Right now we have -- we take care of ACHD property - excess property on there. We Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page1060f114 have an easement, we have lawn on it, and they are redoing that whole corner. I don't know what they are going to have available and what -- you know, we can't put up a sign that's going to -- even if it's not on KFC's leased property, if it interfered with visibility and stuff for their restaurant. I don't think we could really say how a sign would fit on that property at all until ACHD finishes that corner, which they are supposed to do in the next six months. Borup: The design you mean. The design of the corner or the construction? Gibbs: The construction. They tell me they are supposed to have it done by spring. Borup: So, they have got the design work done? Gibbs: I don't know. They have never been able to show me anything really concrete on that. Borup: Okay. I'm saying once the design work is done, then, it should be able to be located at that point. Gibbs: Yes. Zaremba: I have seen a version of it, but I couldn't describe it to you. Gibbs: Yes. I can't -- I have never gotten anything really specific out of them on that. Now, as far as parking, you know, I mentioned before we would have some off-street parking. Both Taco Bell and KFC indicated they didn't want that for their employees and Brad Bolicek did want some off-street parking for his employees. In fact, he bugs me all the time, when are we going to get some of this parking. He would like to have it. We are going to get it, but we don't want to do anything until we find out for sure what we are going to do with this other site. We will have some for at .Ieast Bolo's employees and probably Carl's Jr. employees, because they tell me they would like some, too. The other two -- Borup: So, you're saying some off-site parking; is that what you're referring to? Gibbs: Yes. Borup: Okay, and when you say the other site, you mean the site to the west of Bolo's? Gibbs: There is some -- Borup: Do you still have some bare ground to the west of Bolo's? Gibbs: We don't have any extra bare ground. However, there is some sites available -- there is some parking -- of course, there is a new plan now for over where Wendy's is, because I talked to them about the possibility of some parking spots over there and they Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 107 of 114 were receptive, but I understand there is a Starbucks going in over there now and I don't know what that's going to end up with. Borup: So you have got the whole triangle is that correct? Gibbs: Yes. Yes. Borup: And is this -- and this property to the west of Bolo's, is that parking clear out here to Meridian Road, then? Gibbs:Oh, yeah. They have their -- there is like 40 some parks on the Bolo Taco Time side, as well as the 49 or 50 that's on the site we are looking at now. Is it 60? Anyway, we are going to get some off-site parking no matter what I put there, whether it's Carl's Jr. or-- Borup: Krispy Kreme. Gibbs: Probably not going to put a Krispy Kreme, but we do have two other tenants that will go in there without a drive-thru if we have to. They are probably going to take more parking than Carl's Jr. would with their small building, so -- but we will get some off-site parking. As far as meeting the code of either Boise or Meridian, the parking we have on there is adequate to meet the code. That doesn't necessarily mean it meets the-- Centers: If Bolo's didn't use it it would. Gibbs: We will solve some of Bolo's parking. Centers: I think you got to agree with that. If Bolo's didn't use it, you would have ample parking. Gibbs: Yes. Especially in the evening. Bolo's doesn't use an awful lot during the lunch hour. Their big time is evenings. Centers: Yes. Right. Right. Gibbs: And they do congest the place at that time. Centers: Right. Are you saying that there are no guarantees for that sign easement? Gibbs: I don't know where it would go. Borup: How about where it's drawn? Centers: Out at the triangle there in front of the KFC, there is no guarantees on that? \ Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 106 of 114 Gibbs: I have a lease from KFC on that property, except for the property I have an easement from ACHD, which I don't know what's going to be left when they finish the road, whether there is anything we could use there or where that sign would fit in. Borup: Right now the design shows it right here, Mr. Gibbs. Right there. Gibbs: Yes, and that design is probably not on my property. Or if it is, it's barely on the line. There is about 50 feet of ACHD property between my property line and the -- and the road there at the corner right now that we maintain, so I don't know how much we are going to have left, if any, on that. Borup: Well, if this plat is correct, this is your property line right down here and right down here, so it's just barely right inside it. Gibbs: Well, that would be on KFC's property. I lease it to them. I can't put something on there without their approval. Centers: Okay. I don't think you're going to get that, in my opinion. Zaremba: Well -- and the other part is if ACHD takes back all of their right of way, then, that would be within the site triangle. Centers: What I was leading up to -- this has to be a planned development? Do they have to have two amenities? From what you're telling me I think we only have one amenity left. Gibbs: I saw that the first -- Centers: And that's the bench and memorial -- Gibbs: It was told to me like two days ago and I saw it the first time tonight, so I didn't even know anything about it. Borup: That was proposed last time, wasn't it? Centers: Yes. They didn't talk about where they were going to put it, though. Gibbs: Yes. Centers: Okay. Borup: Anything else you'd like to add? Gibbs: Nothing from me, unless you have got any questions. Borup: Questions from the Commission? Okay. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 109 of 114 Centers: Thank you. Borup: Thank you. Anyone else have anything? If not, let's move on. Centers: Well, Mr. Siddoway, would that be a fair statement? I mean -- Siddoway: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Centers, I -- we don't know what the second amenity is if it's not this. Centers: Because I don't think we are going to get that. I guess -- Siddoway: Based on the testimony tonight, it doesn't sound like it. I mean that was -- I was under the impression it was the property owner's right to dedicate an easement where it was and I didn't know that the lease affected that, so -- Centers: I would assume that, too. Borup: Mr. Jones, would you like to -- final comments? Jones: Yes. A little problem. A little problem. I don't know how this will play out. However, ACHD does have quite a bit of right of way. If there is any left, of course, we will definitely apply for a license agreement from them, if that's available to us. We will try for the sign, because I think it's a great great idea and it's a perfect spot for it. Actually, we could even, you know, put on the bottom of the sign presented by KFC and Carl's Jr. Might even help be a little more neighborly. That being said, I -- you know, I wish I had an idea for you for a second amenity, that's -- that's why I stipulated that we would be glad to put those same funds towards any other amenity that we could deem appropriate with staff's help at this time. We will -- the first priority is the sign, because I think it's a great -- a great idea for the city. Borup: Have you talked with ACHD or looked at their design -- Jones: No. Borup: -- or anything that -- Centers: Any other amenity, then, staff would correct me if I'm wrong, it has to be on the site. Borup: Right. Centers: Be nice to just take your money and put it in the bank, but -- Jones: I wouldn't mind that either. Meridian Planning and Zoning CommissIon Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 110 of 114 Borup: Well -- but that's a perfect spot for a Welcome to Meridian sign. Centers: Yes. It is. Zaremba: And I think there was an aerial view that showed more land around the piece that we are looking at. Okay. There. My understanding is that what's going to happen is this is going to be closed off and somewhere along this property line Waltman is going to make an L, that means a little bit more of this will be lost, but maybe not a whole lot. Borup: Yeah. If that gets in too tight, that makes the right-hand turn really difficult. Jones: We would try and resolve this one way or another before Council. Zaremba: Yes. I do know that there will be no access at this point and I think what they are dOing now is directing traffic here, so whether they need to take part of this, I don't know. Siddoway: Mr. Chairman, assuming always gets me in trouble, but, nonetheless, I would assume that ACHD would not be this far along in design and ready to build if they did not already have their right of way, so I would not anticipate that they would be needing more right of way than what they already have for the improvements that they are about to do. J don't think this lot line is going to change as a result of the improvements, they are going to be doing it within the -- Borup: I'm sure that's right. Siddoway -- they have quite a bit of distance between the property line and the current curb, which sits out here, and I believe they will be working within that area. Borup: I'm sure that -- I think that's correct. Jones: As we did with Mr. -. or Commissioner Zaremba's first request, we would immediately go to ACHD to see if we could secure a licensing agreement, and if I could just quickly comment on the parking for the employees and I know that we have kind of done this to death, but, you know, right now my competitors don't want me there, but I think once we -- once we get approved we will be good neighbors and work together and, in all reality, we will use that whole side there for both his parking -- or his employee parking and ours. Borup: Okay. Anything else? Thank you, Mr. Jones. Commissioners, where do we go? I think the thing that kind of got thrown in at the last there was the gateway sign, but -- anybody want to start? Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 111 01114 Zaremba: Well, let's see. Actually, let's ask Mr. Jones again. If -- yes. If the Meridian sign, which we all like, were not a possibility, do you have a suggestion for a second amenity? Jones: You know, water features are big. I am not a creative person, unfortunately. I was counting on my sign and, then, I just kind of realized, oh, oh, you know, there could be a problem on there. A water feature of some sort. All these -- you know, these buildings are beautiful with the office stuff and they have got -- you know, that could be an addition to the memorial bench and flags. You know, I would offer a playground, but I think that would a bad thing. I'd work with staff to come up with something -- something appropriate for the size and scope of the site and I would dedicate the monies towards it. Zaremba: Thank you. Borup: Question for staff? Is that feasible for that to be worked out before City Council? Siddoway: That's what I'm sitting over here mulling over in my mind. The safe thing to do would be to have an agreed upon two amenities before sending it onto Council. We can send it on to Council with the requirement that they do the sign and work it out with ACHD and/or the property owner, but the question in my mind is what if the answer is no, does it, then, get remanded back here to discuss the second amenity that -- as modified or will City Council just act on it and I don't know. Borup: Well, that's what I was wondering. Zaremba: Our regular instinct has been to send as few mysteries onto the City Council as possible and our feedback has always been they appreciate that. Borup: I think in this case the only reason that we are talking about two amenities, because the. ordinance hasn't been changed yet to allow two buildings on a single site, which -- how is that coming along? A month or so ago they said that was one of the first things you were working on is rewriting that ordinance. Siddoway: Well, Anna is initiating a rewrite of the entire ordinance and I'm sure it will be looked at as part of it, but I don't think we are going to piecemeal it. Borup: Oh, I thought that's what we decided we were. Siddoway: Oh. I don't know, then. Borup: So, it wouldn't take so long. Unless I'm thinking of something else. Siddoway: I don't know the answer to that without Anna here. Borup: Okay. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page1120f114 Zaremba: We need to separate the sign ordinance from the rest of it, but I think she still wanted to incorporate all changes at once. She's changing the format, too, as well rig ht? Siddoway: Yes. Zaremba: To make it more user friendly. Siddoway: Yes. Borup: Well, that was one of the notes I had going through this. I was wondering how that was coming. I mean to me it seems like this is more of a technicality just to comply. So, I don't have -- I don't have a big problem with City Council deciding on the second amenity, but I don't know if they want to get into that either. Zaremba: Well, the Public Hearing is still open. Let me ask Mr. Jones. I think he already answered the question, but are you going to approach ACHD and see if you can learn exactly what their final configuration where this Waltman change is and if you can le.ase some of their space? Jones: Yes. Zaremba: The answer was yes. Okay. I would be comfortable forwarding it to City Council with that knowledge. Borup: Would that be your preference, Mr. Jones that it be forwarded to City Council even with some loose ends? His answer was yes. Zaremba: Well, I'm -- my question was could you have an agreement with ACHD before it gets to City Council or the knowledge that you're never going to have the agreement? Jones: I will approach ACHD tomorrow with the architects and, you know, we should have a resolution before City Council one way or the other. Zaremba: Okay. Even if it went to City Council with a no, then, you would be prepared to offer a second amenity at that point? Jones: Yes. That's correct. Zaremba: Okay. I'm comfortable with that. Borup: Okay. Are we ready to close the hearing? Zaremba: If it's appropriate to close the hearing, so moved. Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16, 2003 Page 113 01114 Rohm: Second. Borup: Motion to close the hearing. All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Centers: Well, just so you know where I'm coming from, so you're not in the dark, I drove by there tonight on the way to the meeting, 20 to 7:00, a quarter to 7:00 -- and I don't know how many percentage of the parking was taken, but a lot of it was. My previous position on this was, you know, you want to see a business do well and come in and, you know, if it's congested, the public are going to find out about it and they will avoid it, you know, so be it, let them have it. You know, I just keep coming back to Bolo's and the owner of the whole parcel not controlling that situation and it is a mess there and I won't patronize it. I think A&W hit the nail on the head and I didn't hear this at the previous two hearings. I think you could go on record, you're fine with a restaurant there, as long as it doesn't have a drive-up and that would be my position, too, because the third time's usually the charm and maybe it is with me, but you folks do what you want. I'm not in favor of it at this time, even though they have made some good changes, they really have, but that Bolo's, that parking is a mess. I guess I experienced Krispy Kreme this morning, too, and it made me more negative on these kinds of operations. That's where I'm coming from, but you folks just go right ahead. Zaremba: I agree with Commissioner Centers on one point, which I think he even made the last time and that is if customers can't get in there, they'll go over to Taco Time and McDonald's and I think it behooves the three or four restaurants that are there to work out together specifically I guess what has to be done with Bolo's, because they appear to be the ones that are messing it up, but I -- it's to their detriment to chase customers away. That being said, I don't have a problem approving it. Centers: Not to jump back in, but the owner of this property or the general partner commented that he had a couple people waiting in line that didn't have drive-ups, so I don't think it's a disservice to the owner if he can build to suit without a drive-up, he's got two people waiting in line and that's what he's testified earlier to, so -- Borup: Anyone else? Anybody want to venture a motion? Zaremba: Along with being sensitive to what Commissioner Centers is saying, I think I am willing to send this on to City Council and, therefore, I will make a motion. I move that we forward to the City Council recommending approval of Item 12 on our agenda, CUP 03-042, request for a Conditional Use Permit for a new Carl's Jr. restaurant with a drive-thru service window by Clayton Jones. North of the intersection of South Meridian Road, East Central Drive, and South Main Street, to include all staff comments of their memo for the hearing date of October 161h, received by the Clerk October 9, 2003. Just noting that the applicant will be prepared with a second amenity if they cannot work out Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting October 16. 2003 Page 11401114 with ACHD the location of the Meridian monument sign. Are there any other issues? End of motion. Mathes: Second. Borup: Motion and second. All in favor? Opposed? Three ayes. One nay. MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE NAYE Borup: Thank you. That's moved on to City Council and I don't know -- anything -- housekeeping issues staff needed to mention? Zaremba: I would just make a comment, as much for the record as anything else. Last Saturday Meridian lost a very valuable citizen, Malcolm MacCoy. His funeral was today. This is somebody who was at one time chairman of this Commission and has been very active in the city, just volunteering for everything, Kiwanis, Boys Scouts, nearly every committee that has anything to do with deciding the future of Meridian and I'd just like to say he's a great loss. He's also a personal loss. He took me under his wing and is part of the reason that I asked to be on this Commission. Has done a lot of mentoring with me and we have had some long talks and I will miss him and the city will miss him. Borup: Very well said. Thank you. One more motion. Zaremba: I move we adjourn. Rohm: Second. Borup: Motion and second to adjoum. All in favor? MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Borup: We adjourned at 12:03. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:50 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS.) (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / DATE KEITH BORUP, CHAIRMAN ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK