HomeMy WebLinkAboutOctober 21, 2003 City CouncilMeridian City Council
October 21, 2003
Page 35 of 68
Bird: Everything is in on the preliminary plat?
Nary: Yes.
O~~l
Bird: Thank you. Second agrees.
- -_ De Weerd: Okay. It's been moved and seconded to continue public hearings on Items
- 13, 14 and 15 to October 28th on the two specified issues. All those in favor say aye.
All~yes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
+)(~- Item 16: Public Hearing: CPA 03-003 Request for amendment to the text of the
Comprehensive Plan to allow new residential uses within the mixed use
WWTP zoning designation for proposed Stapleton Subdivision by
Wardle and Associates - 3680 West Ustick Road:
De Weerd: Okay. Our following items all are regarding the same application, so if
Council doesn't object, I'd like to open public hearings --
Powell: Madam Chair, can you just open the Comprehensive Plan amendment first and
deal with that before you open the others?
De Weerd: You bet. Okay. I will open Item 16, Public Hearing CPA 03-003, request for
amendment to the text of the Comprehensive Plan to allow new residential uses within
the Mixed Use WWTP zoning designation for proposed Stapleton Subdivision by
Wardle and Associates and I'll open the Public Hearing with staff comments.
Powell: Madam President, Members of the Council, this is a request to amend the
Comprehensive Plan to allow residential uses within the Mixed Use Wastewater
Treatment zoning designation. As you know, this was awell-discussed item when the
Comprehensive Plan amendment went through. The area shown in brown was
designated as -- as having special constraints on it, due to the fact that the wastewater
treatment plant was in the area. One of those constraints was specifically to discourage
residential and pretty much just right out not allow it. The Planning and Zoning
Commission did take testimony. We did try to take it just on the Comprehensive Plan
amendment portion. There was quite a bit of testimony from the surrounding neighbors.
Most of them did seem to be in favor of some residential use within the area, although I
think generally it was expressed as more in line with the size acreages that are out
there, which tend to be one to two acres or larger. I think one member of the public
testified, you know, horse people don't mind the smell as much, I think was her direct
quote. There was quite a bit of testimony about the unsure nature of this area and how
several applications have been denied in the area, but I believe all of those occurred
before the Comprehensive Plan was finished and adopted and I'm the sure the
applicant will address that in his testimony as well. The Planning and Zoning
Commission also took in testimony about how other cities have dealt with their
~r' uQLf"'
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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treatment plants or other kind of noxious uses held by the city and also the City of
Meridian - or City of Boise with their avocation easements related to the Boise airport.
So, having taken all that testimony, they asked the applicant to come back with some
proposed easements to address the noise issues associated with the wastewater
treatment .plant and the odor issues and I believe you have got a copy of those
proposed easements. Since the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing there have
been a couple other letters. Those pertain more to the preliminary plat, so I will address
them later. The other issue 1 wanted to point out is that stafFs original recommendation
was for denial. When it was apparent that the Planning and Zoning Commission was
working toward recommendation for approval, staff did point. out that there was two
other Comprehensive Plan amendments that needed to be removed and I'd like read
those. It's goal four, expand, improve, and maintain the city's infrastructure to meet
existing and growing demands in a timely, orderly, and logical manner. Objective A
under that was develop logical master plans for all public facilities and services and
public safety to guide the growth of the city and follow them. And, then, under that, item
17, plan land uses surrounding Wastewater Treatment Plant to reduce human exposure
to odors. So, that would need to be removed. And, then, under goal four, encourage
compatible uses to minimize conflicts and maximize use of the land. Objective A.
Address conflicts with compatible uses and impact areas and, item number eight,
discourage residential areas in close proximity to the Wastewater Treatment Plant. So,
it has several affects on the Comprehensive Plan beyond just the description of the
area. Staff, both Planning and Public Works Staff, are still very much opposed to this
Comprehensive Plan amendment, but it does come forward to you with -- forwarded
with a recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission. I know that Brad
has additional items he'd like to discuss about some of the challenges that the Boise
facility faces with regard to their Lander street sewer plant.
Watson: Madam President, Council Members, lissued amemo -- comment memo I
think August 6th to the Planning and Zoning Commission and to Mayor and Council. I
hope that you had seen that and I won't go through it in detail, but there are four basic
areas of concern that I wanted to point out when there is residential development
adjacent to the Wastewater Treatment Plant. One was odor. Two was noise. Three
was ongoing construction, which hasn't really ceased since I have been here in eight
years, and general esthetics of an industrial site adjacent to a residential subdivision.
And if there are any questions on any of those topics, I would be more than happy to
answer those. I did talk with Carl Ellsworth of Boise City Public Works this morning
about the policies and challenges they have at their Wastewater Treatment facilities. In
a nutshell, they -- they have bought properties up when the opportunity arises, but they
haven't made a concerted effort to do that, from what he tells me. It sounds like they
have only bought one property of any significant size close to the Lander Street facility.
I asked them also about their ongoing odor control costs. That seemed to be a bit of a
nebulous figure to extract from them, but they are -- they do have ongoing odor control
costs at the Lander Street facility and we don't presently at our Wastewater Treatment
plant. They have also planned a somewhat major odor control project in the next year
or two to the order of magnitude of several hundred thousand dollars. The other thing
that they pointed out to me is when they did do a major upgrade in '97, that the noise
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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from the plant was significant and that they did have to go back in and retrofit with noise
barriers or sound walls around some of their equipment and they didn't have those
costs. Those were six years old. I'm just briefly touching on a few of the concerns that
we have with residential development close to the treatment plant and can go into a lot
more detail if you want me to. I will stand for any questions if you have them.
De Weerd: Council, do you want more detail or any comments, questions, at this point?
Okay. Thank you, Brad.
Watson: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Is the applicant here? And if you will remember that we are just
listening to Item 16. Okay. Is the testimony you provide tonight the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Wardle: Yes.
De Weerd: Please state your name and address.
Wardle: For the record, my name is Jon Wardle. My address is 4940 East Mill Station
Drive in Boise. Happy to be here with you this evening and to discuss this issue. Just
to give you a little bit of background, we went into this process with our eyes wide open.
We did our research. We reviewed minutes from a number of meetings, both in the
recent past and a little bit older than that. But starting back in 1993 the city in this area
at least had on their Comprehensive Plan at that time it was proposed for residential in
most of this section. There was no differentiation between industrial, although it did
show the Wastewater Treatment Plant. I think it actually showed a park site and that
was -- as I went through the minutes I saw where many people came and testified that
they thought that there was going to be a park site out here. Things have changed. But
I just want to give you a little bit of background and why we are making this request of
you today. I think everybody here on this Council may have been -- also previous
planning commissions -- familiar with Utility Subdivision. That was -- it was a period of
2001 to 2002, which was pre-Comprehensive Plan update during the process and after
the Comp Plan was adopted it continued. There were a total of ten hearings and I'm
pretty intimate with that, because I read every single minute associated with that. There
was a lot of discussion. There was a regional park site, as I said, indicated or shown in
the corner, but the public testimony was -- the Parks Department made on the record
was they were told by Public Works that there may be a concern for odor, you may want
to look for some other place to go. So, they went for the regional park site down on
Meridian Road, a mile and a half, two miles the other way. There was also a concept
for a residential subdivision put forth by Collins Engineering. It was for an R-4 style
subdivision on the corner, which was Utility Subdivision before that came through. The
applicant was notified that the subdivision would not be approved, because of its close
proximity, so they decided not to proceed with that application. Also, there was
discussion between the same applicant who wanted to do the residential subdivision
and staff about doing a business employment center. They thought that they had a user
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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that might be able to use that facility, that acreage. Same discussion. It went to staff,
staff said, no, it's too close to the Wastewater Treatment Plant, you need to look for
some other place. So, that's how they got to Utility Subdivision. All those things were
told no along the way. Utility Subdivision came in, you know what happened, it was
denied because they were heavy industrial uses that were proposed there. Not on all
the sites, but on the majority of the sites there were uses that were deemed to be
incompatible with the surrounding residential neighborhood. All those uses -- and there
was some discussion during Utility Subdivision, but all those previous uses were
discouraged because of the perceived odor issue. In 2002 the City of Meridian adopted
what they call the Mixed Use Wastewater Treatment Plant, which is kind of an orangish
brown -- depends on how you look at it, but it takes up about 420 acres of that section.
In order to develop in that area, you needed a Conditional Use Permit -- or you need a
Conditional Use Permit and the uses that the Comp Plan said would be allowed, if
granted a CU, would be light professional office uses, flex spaces, including light
warehousing, no new residential uses will be permitted, although existing residential
would be allowed to continue. Limit small scale retail uses and mini storage. So, those
were the uses that were deemed appropriate for this area. In a staff memo just
previous to the August 7~' hearing, which was actually continued to August 21St, staff
indicated there were about 292 acres available for development, of which 40 of those --
so 420 -- they got down to a number of -- some of those parcels had already been
committed to residential, they took out the Wastewater Treatment Plant and, then, they
also pulled out 40 acres for a proposed school site within this section. So, of that, it
allows plus or minus 250 acres that potentially could be developed in this section. But I
just want to take you through some steps of what we feel might or might not happen
here. Industrial uses. We know the city has made a pretty strong stand that industrial
uses were not compatible with single family residential neighborhood around and those
were denied. Retail uses. In late 2001, as part of the Comprehensive Plan process,
although it wasn't official adopted, staff did ask an outside consultant by the name of Ed
Starkey to perform a review of how much commercial use would be seen in the city. He
came up with a number on a per section basis about 43,000 square feet of commercial
per section. If you break that down to acreage, that's about four acres. So, if we bring
the number down from 250, now we are at 246 acres, four acres of which probably
could be commercial, so what do you do with the remaining 246 acres. Locational
linkages is an issue here. The mixed use Wastewater Treatment area is not ideally
situated for good connections to transportation corridors in terms of a significant office
employment center or warehousing and manufacturing space. It's two miles away form
Highway 20-26, eight miles away from the nearest interstate access and there is no rail
access to the site at all, so it makes it a little bit hard for some uses to go here in terms
of a light manufacturing, warehouse space type. We also need to keep in mind that
there are a number of projects that have been approved in the north Meridian area
currently, have large components of commercial, office, mixed use. Some of those
have better access and linkages to those corridors, some are right on Chinden, some
are on other roads lead right to freeway connections. Eventually, Ten Mile will be a
freeway connection. That's still a ways out. But there is a lot of projects on the drawing
board that are in the phase of development now that have proposed commercial and
office uses. Even if the transportation linkages were better, the mixed use Wastewater
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October 21, 2003
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Treatment Plant appears to disallow a large office project, manufacturing parks, that
would leave only light professional office space, flex space, and limited retail. There
was an additional study done, commissioned by ACHD, in regards to the north Meridian
area plan. They gave some numbers in terms of how much retail and office space they
anticipated seeing in the north Meridian area. They came up with 2,744,000 square feet
of office and 1,929,000 square feet of retail space, for a total of 4,673,000 square feet of
office and retail in the north Meridian area. So, it's a ten square mile. If we look at the
mixed use Wastewater Treatment Plant and we use a very conservative floor area ratio
of what the footprint of that building would be on a given acre, it would be 25 percent for
office, commercial, flex uses, the city could possibly see 2,678,940 square feet of
nonresidential space in this section and that's almost the same as how much office
space would be in all of north Meridian. So, just as a comparison. If we use a floor
area ratio that's reflective of what'you do for flex space in manufacturing -- and I
confirmed with those that develop these type of facilities, it can be anywhere from 35
percent to 50 percent coverage of a given acre and so those numbers could be
anywhere from 3.7 million, all the way up to 5.3 million square feet of potential
warehousing space. If the mixed use Wastewater Treatment plan was to develop to this
magnitude, it would represent between 57 and 70 percent of all commercial, retail, flex
space in the north Meridian area. You got to remember there has been a lot of space
already approved. It's unlikely that you would find that much space in this section given
the other projects and the market dynamics. I have talked with brokers about this
location specifically. We all know that it takes amajor -- a major push with what might
be an employer of a use, but they don't see this as on the radars, they look for those
better linkages near the freeways or other -- rail might be an option.
De Weerd: Excuse me, Mr. Wardle. Could you start to summarize?
Wardle: I'd love to.
De Weerd: Okay.
Wardle: I'm about there.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Wardle: If you look at the area, the area is surrounded by residential. We feel that
residential -- specifically along Ustick Road, because there is residential just to the
south, is appropriate. The Planning Commission was concerned about how to notify
residents that the Wastewater Treatment plan is there. We came up with some
scenarios. We also put together anotice -- it was originally called notice, but it is a
noise, odor, light, and dust easement, that would recorded at the time of rezone, it
would run on the plat, and it would be on each individual lot as well, notifying the
residents that they are going to be in the mixed use Wastewater Treatment Plant and
there is an ongoing facility here and these are some things that they need to be aware
of. This is very similar to a document done is Las Vegas, the same situation. Utah is
going through a similar process where they are adopting these types of ordinances.
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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Just given the research that we went through and the likelihood of some of these other
uses that the city intended to want here, we don't see those likely happening. Looking
back to the hearing notes from just recently, it was about a year ago now when this
property was zoned -- when the request was for residential, but it was zoned
commercial, this Council made very specific comments of we have got an area here of
the city we don't know what to do with and we have just stepped forth, given the
research that we have done, and we feel that residential is appropriate and we feel
there is a mechanism in place to protect the city in its investment. So, I just wanted to
provide you with that background and I will stand for any questions you have in regards
to this Comp Plan text amendment.
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Council? You know, I believe when this was discussed during the
Comprehensive Plan public hearings, a Charette was discussed and I think at the time
we were trying to define what this specific area designation would be and this -- I
believe that it was Idaho Smart Growth, wasn't it? Or the Treasure Valley Futures
Project that had mentioned that this might be a good area surrounding the sewer
treatment plant to provide a Charette type of an opportunity to involve the residents and
the public and staff and the property owners to come to the table and start defining what
is the most appropriate use. From what I see in what we put in the Comprehensive
Plan, this amendment you have raised some good points on use in that whole area, but
that Comprehensive Plan and pursuing what actually could go in there, considering the
designation, hasn't really been pursued before we start looking at other types of uses. I
haven't heard anything really compelling that -- well, you did have compelling statistics
and, certainly, market will only bear so much, but I guess in absence of trying to further
define that, instead of piecemealing it -- and I think it was the piecemealing part of it that
was of concern as well, that I would like to see that kind of activity before we start
changing our Comprehensive Plan and before we even see what -- what everyone
could come to together with that could exist there.
Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I'm pretty torn on this area. You know, I think a lot of what Mr. Wardle said is
what we have discussed. I mean I think -- I have been one to say many times when we
have been asked to amend our Comprehensive Plan, that my perception is that you
need to bring us something better than we thought we could do. But I guess the other
side of the coin with this particular area, we didn't know what we thought we could do
with that and that was part of the problem that we had in addressing why we created
this Mixed Use Wastewater Treatment plan zone to begin with, because we didn't know
what to do with it. But I share Council President de Weerd's concern of piecemealing
that change through and trying to sort of shoehorn different things. I don't know that
what we envisioned was right. I mean I think it ends up being somewhat of a holding
zone is what it ends up as. But I'm not sure that amending the text to, then, consider
Meridian City Council
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having these residences right there is necessarily the best alternative available. That's -
- Iguess that's where I'm a little bit torn. I know that the minutes reflect that we didn't
have a very specific defined use for this area, but I am familiar, as what Mr. Watson's
talked about, of the difficulty in dealing with residences that are so close and adjacent to
the treatment plant and there are other ones already -- I don't know that that by itself is
enough, because I recognize that there are homes immediately across the street that
are just as close to that treatment plant as this place is going to be. There are homes
that aren't in the Wastewater Treatment Plant zone, that may be there to the west that,
again, are really no different and, you know, the difficulty is is I think the easements
provide us a legal buffer in dealing with concerns being expressed, but they don't really
provide a very realistic buffer to people, you know. It's not going to help Mr. Watson
and his department to say tough luck, read your plat next time. Don't buy your house
there. That's not going to work just because we have those things. So, I'm not sure
that that's still the best type of use and that was the one thing it seemed that when we
had this discussion, which I'm sure you saw in the minutes, the one thing that we did all
agree on is that residential didn't seem to be the appropriate type of use in this
particular area and so I guess I'm pretty torn on amending the plan today. I think you
have raised some valid points, Mr. Wardle, but I am --Iguess I'm not totally convinced
yet that we have really defined this area adequately to be able to say, then, we should
amend it to allow residential in there, when we had already made the decision that that
was the one thing we thought didn't belong there.
Wardle: Iguess if I might, how does the city feel about having a school in that section?
Bird: I think it would be worse.
Wardle: I don't disagree. This -- if I can quote. I have got the minutes here. I mean I
read too many of these minutes. I have gone black and white color blind. I don't see
colors anymore, because I read too many of these. It says we have got a big, orange
five hundred pound guerilla now around the Wastewater Treatment Plant that we don't
know what to do with and we don't know what to do with it now. This was a year ago.
Someone brought in a rezone request, wasn't allowed residential, but they were allowed
commercial. What is the impetus to get us to the point where we start discussing this
issue? We are a year down the road and we knew that coming in we would have to
make this request. It was, actually, very specific that if we wanted to move forward, that
a Comp Plan amendment would need to be made. That's what we have done. And I
don't want to discount the fact that there may be opportunities for some of those
commercial uses. I really see them probably happening on the corner where Utility Sub
was. That's likely where it's going to happen. The farther you get down Ustick Road,
the less likely that's going to happen. The more you get up into the middle of that
section, the less likely it's going to happen. So, what do we do with those? They can't
be a holding zone forever. There is residential all the way around this section. You
know, I, actually, called about the odor issue. I called code enforcement. They didn't
have any idea. They said call the police. So,l called the police. The police said --
referred me back to code enforcement and code enforcement sent me to the
Wastewater Treatment Plant. Do you know how many complaints or calls there have
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October 21, 2003
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been over five years in terms of odor? Three. Three phone. calls in five years. One of
them was from a resident who just moved in, had no idea that the Wastewater
Treatment Plant was there. I understand that it is a -- what is it, a type A -- or some
technical word for this. It's a class A bio solids sludge treated facility, so it's moved
around three to four times a year. So, at those times the Wastewater Treatment Plant
staff indicated that's when probably the smell occurs the most. It's not an ongoing issue.
I was also informed that there are certain upgrades being done to the wastewater
treatment plant to address some of these. I know those are ongoing. I know
construction is ongoing. We just feel that there is an opportunity to expand the uses
that were intended by the Comp Plan. I don't take lightly the work that went into the
Comp Plan. It was a long process. I was involved in that myself quite a bit. And this
was one of those nebulous issues. What do we do with this area? And that's why we
put forth this amendment to you for your consideration. If you say no, I'm not sure what
the next step is. Who is going to initiate a Charette? Who is going to -- what's the next
step? I know if you talk to the residents to the south, they are going to want to see
residential across the street from them. I know that if we come in with a retail project --
because we have a zoning that's C-N, but if we come in with a retail project, you will
probably have a lot more complains about that have, than having residential right across
the street from it, even though we have zoning. And most people probably didn't know
that that commercial zoning occurred, because the request was for R-2 and it was made
of this decision -- or at this level to zone it commercial. So, that was never noticed that
it was a commercial zone in terms of notifying the neighbors. So, I understand your
concerns. I don't want to come across as being difficult or argumentative, Ijust -- I'm
not sure what the next step is if this isn't the right step.
De Weerd: Anna, do you have any insight on what the next step would be?
Powell: Yes, but can I do a preamble? I mean it's clear that there is not a lot of ideas
about what should occur here, but I'm not sure if that's a horrible thing at this point in
this stage of Meridian. There is plenty of developable land. If this just isn't right for
development at this point, then, that's not unusual to some of the situations to the south
end of the city area of city impact as well. The issue regarding the odor, perhaps there
is not odor right now, it's not a problem, but you got to remember that this is our one and
only sewer treatment plant area at this point. There is not plans for another sewer
treatment plant. So, as the city develops and absorbs all that farmland that's out there,
there is going to be a lot more sewage moving through that plant and to look at it just
from the here and now to say that, well, we don't know what to -- commercial isn't right
now, industrial isn't right now, residential -- the Comp Plan says isn't right now, maybe
that's okay for right now and that this might be developable land sometime in the future.
So, having said that, we could perhaps -- this might be a good opportunity to work with
Sherry McKibben on one of her urban labs to have some of her students tackle this as a
land use design Charette issue. She's usually looking for opportunities to do those
kinds of things. She's definitely interested in the City of Meridian. It might be a good
opportunity. And it may be that there are other options, rather than allowing residential
immediately adjacent, maybe the size needs to change, so that it's a little smaller and
have a -- allow residential toward the outskirts of it. Perhaps that's one of the answers.
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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But just to wholesale allow residential uses within the area -- I tried to get the Planning
and Zoning Commission to perhaps comment on what density of uses. That was not
addressed. So, it's kind of free reign at this point as far as what density would be of
those residential uses as well.
De Weerd: Thank you, Anna.
Nichols: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Anna, this is a -- although we have an open hearing on it, this is associated
with an application for a rezone. How many other parcels in this section, besides this
sewer treatment plant, are annexed into the city?
Powell: Just the sewer treatment facility itself, it would appear.
De Weerd: And I think Charles Crane's place as well.
Powell: Yes. I'm sorry. You're correct.
Nichols: Okay. So, there is just those few along Ustick Road, plus the sewer treatment
plant, are currently inside the city limits.
De Weerd: And the Ten Mile Storage.
Nichols: Okay.
Powell: I'm sorry, I didn't realize the Ten Mile Storage -- I thought that was part of the
city's property, but, yes, there is one there, too. So, it's coming here is one, there is
one, and that's theirs, and I believe this -- it's one of these two little ones here. Both?
The remainder of it is still zoned RUT.
Nichols: Okay. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. This is a public hearing, so we can take additional Public Hearing
and, then, ask you to come back. Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to testify
on this application? Is the testimony you provide tonight the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Centers: Yes.
De Weerd: Please state your name and address.
Centers: My name is Jake Centers. 2011 Locust Grove in Meridian.
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
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De Weerd: Thank you.
Centers: And I know the documentation showed that Mrs. Britton owned this property
and that's incorrect. I actually own the property, so --
De Weerd: Okay.
Centers: It's been talked about, the odor issue, and the reality of it, there really isn't an
odor out there but once or twice a year. We have had a neighborhood meeting, the
neighbors came out, a few of them, just wanting to know what was going on. Testified
that maybe once or twice a year they get a whiff of it. I talked extensively with Mrs.
Wilkins that lives next door. Same thing. I'm actually renting the house out right now,
purposely didn't tell the people that I'm renting it to what the facility was behind it, just
because I wanted to see for my own interest, you know, if there was any issues,
because if I'm going to develop this property, I want it to be lots that I can sell, you
know. I don't want to develop a product that, you know, has some hindrances to it. So,
went out and asked them before the P and Z hearings and they said, you know, we
smelled something once, but they thought it was kind of cool that the meth gas was kind
of burning off the stand back there, so, other than that, there really wasn't any comment
negatively towards that, but -- so you keep hearing about the odor issues and, you
know, that the city is growing, you know, it's going to maybe be more odor, but I guess
my thought is what's the difference if it's residential or if it's office? If I'm looking to
locate my office in a location that I'm going to bring clients into, I'm not going to locate it
in an area that has foul odors. So, the issues that they are bringing up with the odors,
those are issues that are going to have to be addressed regardless of what ultimately
goes here, because if it's a nuisance and it's annoying, you know, I would say on the
contrary that with residential, if people are made aware of that and can go out there and
make the decision of whether or not they want to buy a house there. That seems to
make more sense than for me to go build a business and an office there and, then,
expect clients to come in and have to deal with that. I mean if you are going to have a
massage parlor, I mean would you want to go get a massage out in an area that had a
foul odor? I mean probably not. So, it's not just about the residential, if that really is
something that's going on, which I don't personally feel it is, but it's a concern that staff
keeps having, but that's going to have to be addressed regardless. The other thing is
with this is, you know, like Jon said, we have come up with mechanisms to try and make
potential buyers aware of what the surrounding areas are and I think by doing that, it's
not much different than allowing residential development up against the interstate. The
interstate is very noisy. I'm sure it doesn't smell all that great with all the emissions and
cars going by, you know, lights, I mean there is car lights going on all the time and yet,
you know, residential has been allowed to develop up against the interstate, you know,
particularly like between Linder and the overpass there on Meridian-Kuna Road. You
know, I -- Mr. Nary made the comment that, you know, it won't really work if people call
in and complain, you know, but, I don't know, I mean how far can you take this, you
know, to try and protect people. I mean it's -- we are all grown adults and we are all --
you know, if you're competent enough to be buying a house, I think you ought to be, you
know, looking at what's around you and looking into what's on the deed and, you know,
Meddian City Council
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what's it -- something that didn't get mentioned is it's actually going to be a specific line
item in the CC and R's, it's going to be a note on the face of the plat, and we are going
to have a separate document that they will have to sign. When I sell the lots, I'm going
to have whoever buys the lots from me sign a specific document. I mean there is not
going to be any question as to what is surrounding this development and we have come
up with some of these other instnaments, because, yeah, once I sell it, then, who's to
say that that person when they sell it, the next person in won't know. But that's why the
CC and R's -- you know, everybody can get a copy of those. The plat, everybody can
get a copy of that, and it will be a specific line item on the deed, so -- I mean I don't
know what else more, you know, could be done, so -- and the other thing, you know, I
mean we say kind of wait it out and let's see what happens. You know, I mean what if it
was your mother or grandmother that owned the property next door and it was 30 acres
and you put it up for sale and that was their retirement and nobody wants to buy it, so
you can't do much with it. I mean as Mr. Wardle said, that commercial brokers aren't
interested it, because they are over by the freeway or they are off Eagle Road or they
are in EI Dorado or Silverstone -- I mean that's where those guys want to and it's hard
enough to get those places leased in those locations. So, I don't know, I mean I can
definitely empathize with everybody's concerns, but I think it ought to be an allowed use
and I think it ought to be kind of a case-by-case scenario.
De Weerd: I think what we are concerned about is when we -- when we allow a new
use, that it's well thought through and we know what we are setting ourselves up for.
We already realize that plat notes go unnoticed and some of the safeguards are good
for maybe the first home buyer, but after that it's -- it kind of dilutes and this is a little bit
different than building next to a freeway. The freeway is very obvious. This oftentimes
isn't and I think that's what other communities have learned in having residential around
their sewer treatment plants. So, before we add a new use into an area that is
designated to not accept that use, I think it would be good planning for the city to make
sure if that use is allowed, what kind of restrictions and play out a scenario for an
exercise like a Charette that can maybe examine those things and look at them in
greater detail, work with the surrounding neighbors and the property owners and try and
make this more of a process that anticipates, rather than, well, you know, at the moment
this seems to be the best use for this for this piece of property, so let's just do it. We
know that this area is going to have issues and so it will better serve not only the
property owners, the owners that also surround the area, and potential complaints that
we plan this well.
Centers: Well -- and I can understand that. We know what the neighbors want. I mean
they want to see some residential. I mean that's pretty obvious. And the fact that there
is no neighbors -- well, there is a few neighbors, but we had a neighborhood meeting
and everybody that came to that was, for the most part, in favor of the residential. So, I
mean we know where that lies. But, you know, I can guarantee you that if, you know,
this goes away now, and whatever, there is going to be people that make applications to
come back asking for residential, because nobody -- they can't find another use for their
property and I think it's just a matter of time. I mean that's my opinion on it, so --
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De Weerd: Any other questions?
Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Ithink it's partly a -- I do agree a lot with what Mr. Centers said, you know, but I
guess the one thing --Ithink what we envisioned the difference between the
commercial growth versus residential growth is most commercial growth is not 24 hours
a day. Most of it it's inside an enclosed building. Most houses aren't. You know, a lot
of houses aren't going to be, they are going to open their windows and they are going to
be out in their backyard and they are going to be doing, you know, that type of activity
versus a business, which, really, is, generally, going to be in an enclosed building that's
airconditioned and doesn't have the windows open and the like. But I agree with a lot of
what you said. You know, one of the ways that Boise has had to deal with the airport
issue -- and recognize there is federal funds for that -- but they have had to buy those
properties to insure that buffer to alleviate those concerns, they have the ability to
purchase the properties around the airport, so they don't have to deal with that and I
guess what I'm struggling with here is, you know, if it is that burning of a concern to the
city, then, we should be buying this property, then, that's what we should be doing. If
we think it's that important, then, we should buy it. If we are not going to buy it, then, it
doesn't -- it doesn't seem very reasonable to simply say that Mr. Centers or anybody
else can't do anything with their property, because we can't figure out what belongs
there. You know, we don't know that residential doesn't belong there, we just kind of
think that maybe that doesn't seem to fit what we think, but, you know, that may not
really have any basis -- and I agree with what you're saying, that most of the residents
would prefer residence -- in fact, when I read the minutes, it seemed like the only
comments was on the design of the subdivision and the density and the road -- all the
same stuff. Nobody seemed to be concerned that houses would be there, they just
were concerned as how it was going to be designed and how that might impact them.
So, I guess it's -- this is a tough call, but, like I said, we haven't figured out what's better
to do with it, so I guess I'm not totally sold that we can't do this.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I agree with Mr. Nary on some of the things. I believe Mr. Centers, you know, he's
got some property there and I'm sure he's going to move out there and live out there,
too. Being raised in Nampa, Idaho, around the sugar beet factory, I'm used to the smell
at different times of the year, so -- and it probably wouldn't probably offend me, but --
and Ithink that as a city we are not going to go out and buy up all that ground, we got
47 or 48 acres there now that will be sufficient to mirror that. Ithink that's a lot of -- a lot
of people don't realize that that sewer plant is going to twice the size when we are done.
We are going to mirror that, so you are going to have more odor to deal with as it gets
larger -- and, don't get me wrong, we are getting better and stuff on that. What we do
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out there is a real question. I'm sure residential, where you're at off of Ustick, I can't see
you getting much more odor than the southern subdivisions of Ustick Road. My biggest
-- my biggest concern on this is the changing of the Comprehensive Plan. It seems like
we worked for three years to get a Comprehensive Plan and we are changing the thing
about every month at different areas. Maybe we didn't do a good enough job of
planning ahead, but I don't know how you could have done much more. It sure wasn't a
lack of effort on the city's part, so -- but I have no -- I have no problem with residential
and stuff out there. In fact, Idon't -- I don't see -- the only thing you might get out there
would be some industrial, some wood cabinet shops, something like that. I don't see --
you're not going to get anybody that wants any traffic, because we don't have the traffic.
I mean we have the traffic out there, but it's destination traffic, it's not stopping traffic.
So, I can -- I just have a real problem with the changing of the Comprehensive Plan on
a monthly basis on this, but I do agree, I think that residential, particularly in the area of
yours, is probably the best thing to do out there.
Centers: Believe me, if there was any other way to approach this besides amending the
Comp Plan, we would have taken that route.
Bird: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Okay. Is the testimony you provide
tonight the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Leighton: Yes.
De Weerd: Please state your name and address.
Leighton: My name is Rhonda Leighton. My address is 3610 West Ustick Road and I
am right next door to the proposed development. I have the. little one acre piece that's
right next door to it. It's a small, narrow, 110 feet wide and it goes back the distance will
border their property -- I don't remember the footage, maybe 600 feet or something on
that side. In regards to the Comprehensive Plan, my first thought is one year is
probably not long enough to see 'rf the Comprehensive Plan is going to work. I agree
with some of the comments that have been here tonight. A couple of issues that I'd like
to say is maybe there haven't so many complaints, because maybe there isn't that much
residential out there. There has been a big dairy that has just recently closed up. The
people in that area were kind of used to the dairy there and were kind of thankful it's
gone, so now the smell is a little bit less. I have lived there for one year. There was a
comment that said maybe we smelled it two or four times a year. I would have to say
that I have smelled it probably 80 to 100 times in the year that I have been there. So, is
it long term, is it long going, is it totally offensive? I'm a horse gal. It's not totally
offensive to me, but it is there. The surprise to me that was more offensive than
knowing that there was a smell of a water sewer treatment plant is the fact of the lights
and the noise. The noise never quits. You open your windows at night. and my -- the
back of my property faces to the sewer treatment plant. The lights shine in -- I do have
trees and stuff and that, but the lights do shine in, they are on all the time, and the noise
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is a constant vibrating hum and, honestly, I find that more offensive than the actual
smell is. It just -- you know, there is traffic in the front, I understand that from Ustick, but
at the back of my house it's this constant hum. So, if that's going to double in the next,
you know, period of time, that's an interesting thought forme as far as what I want to do
with my place. It's more at night that I hear it than during the day, of course, with the
traffic and such as it goes on. I do appreciate your consideration in listening, you know,
to us and to what they have to offer. I know you put a lot of work into the
Comprehensive Plan and t hate to see it just kind of thrown out in a small period of time
when that can't be thought of. We did voice our opinion in regards to what we thought
as far as residential. If it's just the answer of residential and, then, it goes by piece by
piece, that's what they are talking about. So, maybe residential is good, but maybe on a
-- you know, a larger scale. I don't know if that, you know, works into your plan that
way. I think that's all.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Any questions? Okay. Is the testimony you provide
tonight the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Crane: Yes, it is.
De Weerd: Please state your name and address.
Crane: My name is Charles Crane at 3600 West Ustick Road.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Crane: My comment is on the residential. There are different type of residents and
different type of residential. As Rhonda stated, she's a horse person and I guess I'm a
little bit of a country boy myself. I also have a horse. And the smell isn't toc
bothersome to me. My horse produces a little methane herself. In fact, the newest
resident of that area -- years ago I had applied to this Council and was granted an R-2
zoning and I finally built that house I had talked about for all those years and I really
enjoy my place. I know the smells. I know the noises. I have actually talked to the
waste treatment plant and they have worked on the lights, trying to reduce some of the
lights and they are talking about working on some of the noise with some sound barriers
on the building that produces the noise. So, I see some possibilities of residential, but I
don't really see a prim city boy sitting there in his subdivision house next to that, but I
could see other people -- other horse people, other people that are used to the country
one, two, three acre lots being quite happy there and that might be something that a
developer could consider. If they brought something to the city that the city really
thought was an improvement, they really had an opportunity to make it a better
neighborhood, a better city, I think you would have a reason to amend comprehensive
plans, make ordinance, whatever was necessary for the betterment of the city, but this
particular plan is just an urban development at the edge of town and that's not the type
of residences that I think would be worth changing a Comprehensive Plan for.
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De Weerd: Thank you. Any questions? Thank you, Mr. Crane. Is there any further
testimony?
Nary: Madam President, could I ask Mr. Watson a question before Mr. Wardle comes
back?
De Weerd: Uh-huh.
Nary: This is the property; right? This piece?
Watson: To the east.
Nary: East. This piece. This one here?
Bird: 6.39 acres.
Nary: So if -- where is the outtall from the treatment plant? Is it somewhere along here
or is it further up?
Watson: Councilman Nary, it was in the first place. Five Mile Creek is the one that runs
more east-west. Somewhere in that general vicinity. Probably a little mare east. I
would guess right in there.
Nary: Right about here? Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Wardle.
Wardle: For the record, my name is Jon Wardle. Regarding the issue of what's going
to happen out in this area, BridgeTower has been approved and will develop at urban
densities. Dakota Ridge and the other Wilkins Ranch over here developed at urban
densities. You just approved a final plat right here, urban densities. I think Lochsa Falls
is right here. There is going to be other large developments that occur up here and it
will be just a matter of time these properties here could be all R-8 -- an R-8 designation.
This is shown to be an R-4. There is a little bit of country here, but it looks -- it depends
on which way you're looking. If you're looking from Ustick north, you're going to see
nice pasture land. The cows appear to be gone, but it's going to be pretty much open.
If you look south you're going to see houses. If you look west, eventually will be houses,
east will be houses. This area here -- around here is all going to be urbanized. That's
the city's plan. And I guess the question that I have is the city said we don't want you to
put a park there. We don't want residential there. We don't want that employment
office center to go there either. And we definitely don't want heavy industrial uses. So,
the question we have is if none of those things are allowed, we are told not to be here,
because the odor is too strong, then, what goes here? We have put the request forward
to you today, put a lot of time and effort. We are -- we are not making light of the
process. I have probably spent as much time as anybody reviewing that document and
all the work that went into it and this was a big question, what do we do here and I think
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October 21, 2003
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we are just providing the city with an opportunity to do something here. I'm not sure
where you go, what the next step is. We feel that residential is -- is a good use here
along Ustick Road. So, I -- I don't have -- I don't have an answer, except what we put
forth.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Jon, that piece of ground that looks landlocked up there above -- north of yours, is
that part of 6.39 acres?
Wardle: It is not. That was part of Utility Sub. If you remember, they, I think, proposed
a little park area back here, because they had a couple pathways going around it and
there is a sewer line that goes through. I think it was an area that they really weren't
going to develop, but they had shown as I think open space on their plan.
Bird: And their entry would be from Ten Mile, not from Ustick to that ground back there?
Wardle: I believe so.
De Weerd: Any other questions?
Wardle: Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Staff, any comments? Questions?
Watson: Madam President, if I might just make a couple clarifications. All the
residential subdivisions that exist east and south were approved with the old
Comprehensive Plan that didn't have this language in it. When the new Comp Plan was
being developed and we attended some of those workshops, we felt pretty strongly
about this particular section and, granted, we don't have -- public works doesn't have a
good idea what should be in there. But I think the distinction needs to be made why all
those others exist east and south. We didn't have this tool to even comment on
residential uses. The second thing to talk about is -- there seems to be a wide variety
whether there are odors out there or not, but I think there are and Council member
McCandless can probably help me out with that. As we were exiting the building after a
staff meeting several weeks ago we did notice that. But what it is today may not be
even close to what it is 20 years from now with the new requirements being issued by
EPA, we may have -- not completely different processes, but a lot of different types of
processes to meet different treatment requirements. I guess I just don't want anyone to
have the misconception that what's out there today is what will always be out there. We
will always make an effort to minimize odors, but I think my primary duties, the city's
primary duties, are to meet permit and to do it in acost-effective manner and when we
start doing esthetics and odor control and that sort of thing, that's not to meet permit. It
may be being a good neighbor, but it's costly. The third thing, the easement, which
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really hasn't had much discussion and maybe that's for the preliminary plat discussion.
Council member Nary touched on it, but I will get the calls and even though I have that
piece of paper in my hand, I think a very good attorney could keep me running for quite
awhile on that sort of thing. There is always a standard of care and that seems to be
somewhat subjective. When I think we are doing a good job, I'm not sure another
attorney would think the same thing. The fourth and final editorial comment from a
public works standpoint, we would like it to be rural, light industrial, or maybe parks and
athletic fields. But that doesn't coincide with what the neighbors want out there, so that
is just my opinion. That's all I have. Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you, Brad.
Nichols: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nichols:
Nichols: Madam President, if Mrs. Powell could explain what a Charette is, so the
record has that, please.
Powell: My non-official Webster's dictionary definition, a Charette is generally when a
group of design individuals get around and basically brainstorm on a project. It usually
includes a plan view, as well as some architectural renderings. It's generally two to
three days in process. The other type of involvement that I had talked about earlier
would be perhaps a longer process where students over the course of the quarter or
semester -- having not gone to Idaho schools, I'm not sure what it is, but over the
course of study they would develop a plan for that area and perhaps a -- some ideas of
how to lay it out and what type of architecture might be appropriate.
Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess -- I think we are still sort of pondering this. I mean that sounds like a
great idea, but unless you have the people with the money that are going to do it, that's
not going to really do much. I mean whether it's Smart Growth or whether it's
somebody else putting on this type of thing, unless those people that own those
properties are participants in it, which that's not what I'm hearing today, it's not going to
really go anywhere. You can't really design something that's in a vacuum and so I'm not
sure that that's really going to work.
De Weerd: And that wasn't the idea that was offered during the Comprehensive Plan
and I think even some of the testimony that was collected during the north Meridian plan
open house. I think there was some comment on it, then, and, yes, the property owners
would have to be participants in this exercise and I guess that's how I envisioned it, why
we were discussing it and I know Anna wasn't present at -- during that process, so she
wouldn't have knowledge on it. But it was brought up. I think the offer was even placed
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out there by Elaine Clegg or John Barnes that -- and Sherry McKibben that this would
be something that they could pull together among the property owners and surrounding
residences, so --
Nary: Well, I know a week ago we had an application at Ustick and Eagle that we were
struggling with probably similar to this. I mean -- and with the similar concerns I think
that we have raised tonight, you know, we didn't necessarily have a specific vision for
that area either, but we were very concerned about piecemeal development and how
that was going to be developed, how that was going to look in the future and, you know,
I think this one somewhat is in the same category for me as •- trying to figure out what's
the best way to deal with this. I guess there is a lot of me, after listening to the
testimony, that I don't have -- I guess I don't have the same concern I had at the outset
about the residential uses as a permitted use with a Conditional Use Permit as being
requested, because, again, it still allows the level of flexibility for us to evaluate what
can be there. I think Mr. Centers and Mr. Wardle have brought some pretty fair
testimony to at least allow us to consider that as a potential use in this area. You know,
in looking -- and that's not before us yet. I'm not sure that the level of what they are
proposing necessarily fits into what I think is appropriate, but right now all we are doing
is deciding whether or not to allow the discussion further of residential uses and I guess
I'm not as adverse to it as I was at the outset after listening to the testimony.
De Weerd: We already had the summary. Council, do you want more testimony?
Nary: I don't care.
De Weerd: Okay.
Centers: Quick comment. Jake Centers. As far as the -- you know, trying to come up
with another plan for this area -- I mean what else is there to come up with? I mean all
the uses are already allowed, except residential. So I mean I'm just not sure what good
that would do. I mean it's -- everything is there.
Nichols: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Centers, the difference is yours is already in the city limits and so the city
has to -- you know, and although we are not -- I mean looking at the Comprehensive
Plan. The other parcels are not annexed and so it gives the Council flexibility in
deciding whether to take them in or not and under what circumstances and what the
development would be. Yours is a little different picture and so to say that because they
were denied before, because people didn't want a bus bam on that corner with a bunch
of diesel buses running in and out twice a day, doesn't mean that there isn't some
potential industrial uses somebody is going to want to put there, with a potential for an
interstate interchange just a few miles down the road. So, there is a distinction there
ahd to say I don't think it's fair for the -- to say to the Council there is nothing left. Your
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October 21, 2003
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parcel needs some special attention. And, Madam President, if I could ask staff a
question. If the amendment were allowed as proposed, are there enough conditions or
criteria to evaluate a request for zoning for residential uses that take into account some
of these things like the noise and the odor or how much buffer area is left toward the
treatment plant side or -- I mean that's my question. It would seem that if that
amendment was going to be made, would it not be prudent to say these are factors that
we will go into considering whether residential uses would be allowed and you would
have some criteria, so that someone like Mr. Centers, who approaches another parcel
and is considering perhaps residential, would know what things to look at in developing
a site plan and a layout and all of those things.
Powell: No, the applicant has not proposed those with the Comprehensive Plan
amendment. Because it was an applicant-initiated amendment we did not add to it.
Our -- as I said, our initial recommendation was for denial, so we did not add language
to it at that time. At the Planning and Zone Commission I asked for even some clarity
on the density issue and was not able to gather any from them. So, at this point there
are no standards to evaluate what type of residential development would be
appropriate. It is left up -- it is left wide open.
De Weerd: And I guess that's my concern, is, you know, you could have lower densities
towards the center and allow a little bit more density towards the outer rim. Without
specification and without giving it some thought, you know, I'm not one that rushes into
it head first without trying to look at pros and cons and with all the thought that went into
our Comprehensive Plan. It just seems that we are rushing into a decision to amend it,
without having some of these more finer details really thought through. And I agree that
residential uses make sense. Your figures really drove those home and what we really
are setting up and limiting the property owners out there, but I don't see why we need to
rush into making some allowances without thinking through the pros and the cons and
how best to transition in these areas and that's why I think is there an exercise might
help? Maybe avoid that exercise and spend staff time looking at it, out source it, I don't
know, but it is an area that is designated within our Comprehensive Plan. We need to
further define it. That's obvious here. And how we want to go about that exercise,
that's the next question. But I agree that -- we just did this Comprehensive Plan, it was
given a lot of thought, we had a lot of discussion on this particular area, I don't think that
we are going to solve it in one night.
Centers: Well, I'd like to say if you're thinking about heading that route, I'd rather have a
professional do it, instead of some lady and her class of students doing it. You know, I
mean this is a piece property, it's an expensive piece of property and, you know, if
you're going to go to that extent, I'd like to see some professional planning involved with
it and now just turned over to a bunch of students thinking of it as, you know, a home ec
art project, because this is serious business. And if you're going to hire a professional,
that costs money and, you know, personally, I think you, as a Council, are completely
competent in making the decisions on -- I mean, you know, you do it all the time with
property. Why is this that much different? You know, or maybe put a -- well, I don't
know. I mean that's just kind of my thoughts on it.
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Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Yeah. I think the only problem, Mr. Centers, I think is what Council President de
Weerd's raised is, you know, we had already made a decision not to have any
residential, so now we don't have any standards in which to gauge what you're asking
for. If we approve this request, then, we move on to your other requests for rezoning
and the plat and all of those things and we don't have astandard -- we don't have a
standard as to how far away from that treatment plant should houses be allowed,
because we had originally decided not to allow any. So, you know, I think she's raised a
very valid point that before we can concur with your text amendment, we have to have
some idea of how would we fit zoning for houses into an area now that we had
previously had no zone at all -- or no houses at all and I don't necessarily feel --
although it's nice of you to say that, but I don't necessarily feel that we are particularly
equipped to decide whether 150 feet or 200 feet or 300 feet is appropriate from that
treatment plant, what type of setbacks are appropriate and is there height requirements
and what type of compatible zoning. If I was looking just at compatible zoning right
now, your adjacent zoning is R-2 and you want an R-8. I don't know that those are
compatible.
Centers: We are currently zoned commercial.
Nary: I understand.
Centers: So, tell me how commercial and R-2 is less compatible than R-8 and R-2.
Nary: I agree. So -- but we don't have any of those standards set as to how to do that
and I think what the staff is asking is pretty reasonable in saying we need some
guidance as to how to do that. I mean what is it you want. I don't know how long that
process would take. I don't know how we would do that, because we haven't had to do
that yet. We can certainly, you know, direct staff to come back and give us a proposal
on how we can get this accomplished and how it would long take and who we would
hire to do it and what that would cost and, then, we could decide to do that. But I think
that's what -- at least that's where the discussion is at the moment is how do we get that
further, but you got to understand, I mean that's partly the reason, is you're asking us to
add something that wasn't included at all and does require some thought before we just
add it in.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: In Mr. Centers' defense, you know, we got CUP's coming on all this stuff and the
deal. I agree with him, I mean I realize it probably wouldn't cost us anything to have
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October 21, 2003
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McKibben and her classes do it, but I have some real problems with that. It might be 18
to -- 18 months to two years before we got any results. I -- but in the same token, I'm
like Councilwoman de Weerd and Councilman Nary, we have no standards set out
there, so how do you -- you know, how do you say you can build right up to the creek
and -- or you have to be -- have a 35 foot buffer or you can't have a house over 24 foot
tall or -- without knowing that, we can go back to staff and get it done. I realize you
have got an awful expensive piece of property out there for a horse farm, like was
suggested earlier, or put some cows on it.
Centers: I can't even do that.
Bird: You'd have to sell a lot of cattle to pay for the --
Centers: It's zoned commercial. I can't do that.
Bird: And I think that area -and looking back, yeah, I don't see that area being
commercial.. You might get a corner lot there of retail, but I doubt it. That's something
that we got to go back and look at. But I assure you that we worked hard and long on
that property out there. Whether we made the right recommendations, Idon't know. I
think we did, but time will tell.
Centers: Well, just a suggestion that maybe, you know, if this text amendment were
approved, then, everything still comes up comes through the conditional use process,
so you still have, you know, flexibility to say yea or nay and, you know, maybe we
approve this and, then, you know, direct staff to start working towards coming up with
some of the guidelines to address residential uses. You know, I don't know, because I
can see that process taking quite awhile and to my knowledge there is not anything in
the works with other applications coming in, besides mine. You know, I mean this is a
little selfish, but maybe address mine and, then, you know, try and -- and, then, now that
you know this is a potential that could be coming, then, to work on standards for any
future ones.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Mr. Centers, the only problem is I'm not -- I would have no problem for a
Comprehensive Plan deal if we had the standards in place at that time, but I'm not going
to pass something without having standards within the program that we are passing
and, then, your other project can go. I don't think it would take that long to set some
standards. I wouldn't think it would. I would think staff could set some standards, you
know, like buffer zones and stuff like that and I would feel comfortable with that, but as it
sits right now, without any standards or anything for residential, I'm not for it. Now,
whether it takes us two weeks, a month, two months, it's going to be a lot faster than if
we go out and hire somebody to give us these standards or we go to the University of
Idaho's planning department with Mrs. McKibben's students and it takes two years, but I
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October 21, 2003
Page 56 of 68
believe that - and I could back something like that. If they can come back with some
standards to do that, I could back it. But I'm not going to pass anything that don't have
standards set up for it when it comes forward and I know it's when -- your piece of
property, but I'll guarantee you're not the only piece of property that's going to come in
for residential. That whole Ustick thing is going to be residential corridor, so -- but until
we get some standards for the residential, I can't go for it. Once we get the standards,
which I think staff can probably do, like buffer zones, setbacks, whatever we need, then,
I can take a hard look at it and probably pass it and go for it.
Centers: A couple things. One, you know, staff has already told you they don't want
any residential, so maybe if the direction was given that they have to include some
residential, you know, and make it work, figure it out. And the other is I assume a
question for Attorney Nichols as to what the process would be if some guidelines came
back from staff, would it have to go through the hearing process or what -- how would
that work?
De Weerd: Mr. Nichols, would you like to explain that process?
Nichols: Madam President, Members of the Council. A great question, Mr. Centers,
and I'm not sure of the answer. I'm not sure if it becomes the type of text amendment
that is so extensive that it has to be considered by the Planning and Zoning
Commission or not.
Powell: Madam President?
De Weerd: Anna.
Powell: Members of the Council. Just backtracking a little bit. It would seem, since the
applicant has brought forth this Comprehensive Plan amendment, it would not be
inappropriate for him to suggest the standards. In fact, it would be normal for him to
suggest the standards that, then, staff could have comment on or reply to. That keeps
his application open and, then, there would seem to be the question of whether or not it
would need to be remanded back to the Planning and Zoning Commission. Given that
they approved it with no standards, I would think that maybe we could forego that.
Nichols: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Madam President, Members of the Council, we could certainly look at it,
particularly where the Commission is a recommending body, as opposed to a deciding
body on the issue and so if -- since the Council holds final say in any event, perhaps in
that fashion it would be appropriate. I would say, though, it's a little difficult for Mr.
Centers to come up with what those standards and so forth would be when what --
without some direction from staff as to -- or the Council as to what it is you're looking for
and maybe there has been enough in the discussion that Mr. Wardle can put something
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October 21, 2003
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together. But just to say bring some conditions to us to look at comment and upon, I'm
not sure gets us there as quickly as everybody seems to want to get some resolution of
it, because you'd hate for him to bring something up and, then, well, that's not enough
and -- I mean that doesn't seem appropriate.
Centers: I'd do that. I mean, you know, this is an issue and it's going to, you know,
affect everybody here and a lot of property owners and, you know, I don't think it would
be as difficult as -- you know, as long as you direct staff that residential is going to be
something that we are interested in seeing in this area. I think we can -- both Jon and I
have a good relationship with staff and as long as we were working towards that
common goal, I feel we could at least come up with the first draft of something to
present to you, you know, because, really, it's staff that is going to need to deal with the
issues, so --
De Weerd: Well, staff certainly knows more about this area than I would even pretend
to, but it seems a little bit more complex than that to me, but I don't know. In terms of
giving it some thought -- because what we do here will be allowed in that whole area.
We will set precedence and we want to make sure that whatever we allow or do is going
to be consistent throughout that whole area and so, you know, I guess since you
opened that door, I would look to you to comment on this.
Powell: Well, there are several problems I see. One is that we have got three
applications immediately following this. With the suggestions I have heard tonight, the
standards that staff would deem appropriate would basically deny -- or would exclude
that project from being able to gain approval. So, I'm torn with this -- this dichotomy of
all these active applications, which we know the applicant is moving toward, I don't
know how we are going to come to any agreement on suitable standards just between
the applicant and I or my staff, but --
De Weerd: Well, I guess that's why I was a little bit astonished that you opened that
door.
Powell: Well, it's his application -- it's his application and if he wants to -- he's
complaining that there is not going to be professional staff working on it, he's got
professional staff. So, if he wants to suggest something that would -- if I were in Mr.
Wardle's shoes I would looking at the rest of the Comp Plan, look at the issues that they
were trying to deal with, look -- address the concerns that the Council was looking at
tonight, look at some of our landscaping standards and separation standards, do some
research on nationwide how people have dealt with this, if they have got suitable
standards -- I mean he knows how to do the research. He knows how to develop
standards. If this is part of his application, then, he could propose those and we could
review those, but given that there is these other applications attached to this, I'm not
quite sure how realistic that is.
De Weerd: Well, I guess I appreciate you being sensitive to that and I might suggest
that we continue this for a week, let the applicant talk with his planner, let you look at it
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October 21, 2003
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from a staff perspective, and bring back a recommendation next week. I don't know
what the rest of the Council thinks, but, you know, we can sit here for the next hour and
really discuss this or ask that the people who know more about this bring
recommendations next week.
Centers: Could I just ask a question, just to kind of get your response? With like the
neighborhood commercial zoning or -- yeah. There are -- it's a percentage, like so
much of a percentage of that neighborhood commercial can be in office and, then, no
more will be allowed and, then, you have to utilize some other uses with that. So, just
kind of brainstorming real quick, I mean is that a potential, maybe, in this area? Say,
you know, if you got whatever, 280 usable acres, 20 percent of that could be allowed for
residential uses and, you know, kind of a first come first serve deal, just not unlike the
neighborhood commercial with like the light office space.
Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I don't know the answer to your question. I guess what I'm thinking -- what I think
in listening to what you have said, Mr. Centers, and what Mrs. Powell has said, I guess,
to me, I think both of you are right to a degree. I think Mrs. Powell is correct that
normally when people make application for these types of things, they are also
providing those standards and the like. You folks didn't ask for that and the Planning
and Zoning Commission didn't feel compelled to come up with that. I think you should
have some input. My assumption -- and I could be wrong, but my assumption is the
standards that you're going to come up with for residential are, going to look a lot like
these three applications that are right behind us. I'm just guessing, but that's what I
think, so -- but that may not necessarily be the best thing. I think the planning staff,
although I know they have opposed this application, certainly if the direction of this
Council is to say go figure something out for us, because we are not opposed to it, they
will do that. What we do a lot of times -- and I think Mrs. Powell can make this call on
this, is hiring consultants and other people to assist in that process. Sometimes that --
that still doesn't take very long to do that. We don't have to go through a very extensive
process to get some idea on what's appropriate and I think more than anything, I guess
to me, as a lay person, more than anything, it's the setback from the treatment plant
that's probably the most significant factor. I don't know what that should be. I don't
know if it should be 100 or 200 or 50 feet. I don't have any idea. So, someone else that
has that expertise needs to tell us that. There is probably other standards that they
have had to deal with in other communities in trying to create that and both Mrs. Powell
and -- either through her staff or through a consultant can help come up with that. I look
at that as somewhat of a marriage between what you folks think as appropriate for your
application, as well as what maybe some objective third person may believe has worked
in other areas, as well as what our staff believes works in our area. So, I look at that as
that's where the meeting of the minds has to occur and, you know, it's not going to help
anybody -- I mean I have already missed the World Series tonight, I don't want to spend
another hour here.
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
Page 59 of 68
Centers: The Yankees won.
Nary: What's that?
Centers: The Yankees won.
Nary: All right. That's good. They were wining -- they were winning in the bottom of the
eighth, so -- but, anyway, I don't want to spend another hour here, because I don't think
we could solve it. I don't think we can solve that tonight. I think between your input,
Mrs. Powell's staffs input, and if there is a necessity, because there is such a
disagreement between what you folks think should be the standards and what the staff
thinks should be the standards, there is plenty of other people in this community that
can probably provide us some good, professional, expertise on that, that I think we can
solve this problem fairly quickly, but Ithink -- I think President de Weerd's correct, that
probably the best way to do that is figure out in a week what's the game_plan and I don't
think we can figure out that game plan now without just having this same discussion for
a half an hour.
Centers: Right. Anna, how is your week workload?
De Weerd: Oh, we can have you guys get together after this hearing and --
Centers: Well, I was just asking her to see if we can -- if she can do it within this week
or two weeks --
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Powell: Friday is, really, the only day I have a whole lot of free time, so that would only
give us one day. If they want anything in advance -- we could probably get it done by
next week. Yeah.
De Weerd: Or plan it -- continue this until November 5th and --
Powell: Yeah. Get an extra day.
Centers: Let's see. Can we go two weeks?
De Weerd: That is two weeks.
Centers: Oh. Okay. Sorry. Right.
De Weerd: That works for you?
Centers: Yes.
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October 21, 2003
Paga 60 of 88
De Weerd: Okay.
Centers: Okay. Appreciate all your time.
De Weerd: Okay.
Bird: Madam Chairman?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: With that I would move that we continue the Public Hearing CPA 03-003,
Stapleton Subdivision, to November 5th, 2003.
Nary: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. It's been moved and seconded to continue Item 16, CPA 03-003, to
November 5th. All those in favor say aye. Okay. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 17: Public Hearing: RZ 03-009 Request for a Rezone of 6.39 acres from
C-N to R-8 zones for proposed Stapleton Subdivision by Wardle and
Associates - 3680 West Ustick Road:
Item 18: Public Hearing: PP 03-019 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 40
building lots and 7 other lots on 5.93 acres in a proposed R-8 zone for
proposed Stapleton Subdivision by Wardle and Associates - 3680 West
Ustick Road:
Item 19: Public Hearing: CUP 03-034 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a
Planned Development fora 41-lot subdivision to include a reduction in
minimum size lots, size of homes, minimum square footage on main floor
of multi-level homes, and setbacks in a proposed R-8 zone for proposed
Stapleton Subdivision by Wardle and Associates - 3680 West Ustick
Road:
Nary: Madam President, we need to -- do we need to table the other items, then?
Bird: We need to open it and, then, continue it.
Nary: Oh, open and continue.
De Weerd: Do we need to open and continue?
Nichols: Yes.
Meridian City Council
October 21.2003
Page 61 of 66
De Weerd: Okay. I will go ahead and open Item 17, Public Hearing RZ 03-009, request
for a rezone of 6.39 acres from C-N to R-8 zones for the proposed Stapleton
Subdivision. Item 18, Public Hearing PP 03-019, request for preliminary plat approval of
14 building lots and seven other lots on 5.93 acres in a proposed R-8 zone for proposed
Stapleton Subdivision. And Item 19, Public Hearing CUP 03-034, request for a
Conditional Use Permit for a planned development fora 41 lot subdivision, to include
the reduction in the minimum size lots, size of homes, minimum square footage on main
floor of multi-level homes and setbacks in a proposed R-8 zone for proposed Stapleton
Subdivision.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: The public hearings are open. Yes, Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that continue RZ 03-009, the request for a rezone for Stapleton
Subdivision to November 5th, 2003.
De Weerd: Can you do them all?
Bird: Do you want me to do them all? Okay. Also PP 03-019, the request for a
preliminary plat approval for Stapleton Subdivision and also CUP 03-034, the
Conditional Use Permit for Stapleton Subdivision to November 3rd, 2003.
De Weerd: How about November 5th.
Bird: 5th. I'm sorry.
Nary: Second.
Bird: I'm two days off.
De Weerd: Okay. It's been moved and seconded to continue Items 17, 18 and 19 to
November 5th, 2003. All those in favor say aye.
Nary: Madam President before we vote.
De Weerd: I'm sorry.
Nary: I just want to -- it's probably not necessary tonight. Mr. Crane is here, Mrs.
Leighton was here. Part of the benefit of setting -- of opening the Public Hearing and
setting them over is we don't have to renotice them again, which is fine, but this may be
a fairly lengthy process and although it may not be necessary tonight, I do think in the
future we do need to make sure that, you know, these affected property owners that are
immediately adjacent and have an interest in this property and development of it,
receive notice, because they are not going to otherwise, because we have continued
these hearings and so I'm not going to ask for it tonight, but on November 5th, if we
Meridian City Council
October 21, 2003
Page 82 of 68
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continue this again, I will ask that we send Mr. Crane and Mrs. Leighton notice of the
hearing, so they don't have to every week look to see if we put it on there, because I
don't think that's very fair. But other than that, that was my only comment.
De Weerd: And we can ask staff to specifically contact them as well.
Nary: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. All those in favor of continuing these items to November
5th, 2003, please, say aye. Okay. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 20: Water, Sewer and Trash Delinquencies:
De Weerd: We will move to Item 20. Sewer, trash -- water, sewer and trash
delinquencies. This is to inform you in writing, if you so choose, that you have the right
to apre-termination hearing at 7:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 21st, 2003, before the
Mayor and City before the Mayor and City Council to appear in person to be judged on
the facts and to defend the claim made by the city that your water, sewer, and trash bill
is delinquent. You may retain counsel. Your service will be discontinued on October
22nd, and/or October 29th, 2003, unless payment is received in full. Is there anyone
present who wishes to contest his or her water, sewer, and trash delinquency? Okay.
Seeing none, they are hereby informed that they may appeal or have the decision of the
city reviewed by the Fourth Judicial District Court pursuant to Idaho state code. Even
though they appeal their water will be shut off. The amount of the turn-off list is
$33,544.45.
Bird: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we accept the delinquency for tum off and turn off dates will be
October 22nd, 2003, or -- and/or October 29th, 2003. The total sum is $33,544.45.
Nary: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. It's been moved and seconded to approve the turn off dates of
October 22nd and 29th for the turn off list amount of $33,544.45. Mrs. Deputy Clerk,
will you call roll?
Roll Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
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