HomeMy WebLinkAboutSept 23, 2003 PreCouncil MinuteMeridian City Pre-Council Meeting D ~ Q
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Item 3. Follow-Up from September 9, 2003: Discussion with Lee
Centers on Silvercreek Subdivision (fka Powder River
Subdivision):
De Weerd: Okay Item Number 3 follow up from September 9w discussion with
Lee Centers on Silvercreek Subdivision fka Powder River Subdivision. I assume
we start with Dave McKinnon.
McKinnon: Thank you Madam President. We missed you a couple of weeks
ago. Just to catch you back up to speed again, it's the formerly known as
Powder River project and I've got it up on the tripod here. It's basically 44 units
in the county. This would be a county subdivision and we would be asking for a
Rezone from the county. That's the reason why we're coming to you again was
to talk a little bit about water and sewer services out in that area and connecting
to the city sewer services is one of the major points. At the last meeting before
we left, there was some direction from the Council to Brad Watson to write a list
of questions that he wanted answers that we would give a response back to the
Public Works Department and Public Works. You should have all received a
copy of that. I see some nodding of heads. I haven't heard back from the Public
Works Department in response to my letter and so maybe we need to have some
time for Public Works to respond back to our letter tonight. You should have all
received a copy of that. One of the other questions that came up at the previous
meeting that you missed Tammy, was Councilman Nary requested that we talk
with the Bear Creek Developers and find out what their opinion would be of us
hooking on to the Bear Creek lift station. Because there had been some talk in
the past about nobody else hooking up to the Bear Creek lift station. We have
talked with the Bear Creek Developers and I'll paraphrase their response. Their
response was we don't care what happens with the lift station as long as we still
have the capacity for what we've been approved for. If there is additional
capacity in the Bear Creek lift station they don't mind if someone else uses that
but they want to make sure that there is capacity for everything that they've been
approved for. In the future if there's a need to update or upgrade the pumps in
the lift station or increase capacity we'd be willing to participate. I know that Bear
Creek Developers are looking at possibly increasing capacity there too with
future development. We would be willing to pay our fair share of the increase of
that for the lift station. Bear Creek was not of great concern. In the meantime,
besides the list of questions that we've answered we have talked to the Fire
Department to find out about fire flows and to find out about their concerns with
emergency response times. We would still be working with the Meridian Rural
Fire District and I've spent some time with Joe Silva in the last week finding out
about fire flows and what types of requirements he would have with this. In the
past when this project has been discussed he has had the developer and the
developer's representatives come to meetings with the Fire District and their
commission. Joe has told me that based on the fact that we're only dealing with
44 lots now, as long as we can get the fire flow to 1,000 gallons per minute
pressure and as long as the houses are less than 3600 square feet in size he's
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okay with the development. That this is a development he could live with. He
does not want to see this go back to the Fire District again to their committee.
He feels strong enough that this is a project that could work because of the small
size. If you want, I do have the letter. I can go through the detailed list of
responses. Some of the responses are more technical in nature something for
the Public Works Department. I can go through those if you would like but just to
reiterate the major points that we have for this project is we're not trying tc go
past the city on this project and go straight to the county and ask the county to do
this. We would like to do this with the city's approval. We're trying to meet all the
requirements of the amendment that was recently made to the Comprehensive
Plan that we provide for Park's impact fees that we would pay for the sewer
connection fees up front that we would have deed restrictions and a note on the
plat requiring annexation in the future when it's available. It would be dry line
sewer connection to the city for the future. It's a project that requires some
cooperation from the city because one of the things that the county requires for
the rezone to the R-4 from the RUT would be your approval and connection to
city services. We would be providing a well that's not connected to the city
system right now. In fact, it would be two wells. One of the questions that Brad
had asked was is there a need for two wells and the answer to that is yes. DEO
requires two wells. One for backup just in case there's not enough pressure from
the first well if you have more than 25 homes and so there would be two wells
here. In the future, we would give the city the opportunity to purchase this well
and we talked a little bit about how that would be worked out. Lee has given me
just a discussion draft option agreement as to how that could be worded and I'll
give that to Mr. Nichols so that he could have a chance to review that just so that
you know that we're trying to work with the city. That in the future we can give
the city the first right or refusal on that well so that when the city does reach that
point this well could be purchased by the city and brought into the rest of the city
water system. I'll go ahead and hand this to Mr. Nichols. In addition to that, I
have a copy of a water facility agreement that City of Nampa has signed for a
similar type of situation where the water system is outside of the City of Nampa's
limits but they're providing some services to the well. It's a project that they've
recently approved. If we can get the 44 lots in this subdivision rather than
developing it at county standards we would be developing it to city standards so
that when the city does annex out there it's inevitable that city services will be
there and that the city is going to grow that direction. We've seen the majority of
the growth in the north but sooner or later, it will go to the south. The sewer
treatment plans show for the Black Cat Trunk to extend to this are in the future.
That when this develops rather than having to mesh with the county subdivisions
that are already out there. You would have a city standard subdivision that would
be able to mesh with the city standards right away rather than have an entrance
into a subdivision that's built to county standards and -then have city standards
follow through the rest of the subdivision. This would provide an equal meshing.
Basically, the one thing we're asking for the city to do is grant us the ability to
request a rezone to hook up to the sewer system of the city and provide some
sort of agreement with the water system in future. For that, we're asking for 14
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additional homes rather than the 30 homes that we could ask for under the RUT
zoning for the entire property. We're just asking for some sort of support from
the city for our rezone. That rezone would enable you to have a subdivision that
meets the city standards and you would receive the benefits of this project as if it
were a city subdivision. You get your park impact fees and your sewer fees paid
up front even through it's a county development. Did you have any questions at
this point?
De Weerd: Council? I guess I would ask -and you probably went aver this last
time is what is different about this request?
McKinnon: The major difference between this request and previous requests is
that we would limit this development to 44 units. In the past, it's been 30 units up
to 455 units but the 40 units in the past meant that we would be approved for 40
units in the county and then every year we could come back in for additional
units. Now we're proposing aNon-Development Agreement or a Development
Agreement depending on how you want to label that that would limit us just to the
44 units until sewer services and water services become available from the city.
Rather than asking for an approval of a project that could continue to grow in the
county we would be limiting it to only 14 more homes than what we could
typically get approved for in the county. Then we would be done until sewer
services come from the city. That's the major difference.
De Weerd: So just the addition of extra houses a little bit over and above what
he would be able to do with the cluster development?
McKinnon: That's correct. With a cluster development, we could do 30 houses
in the county under the RUT zoning.
De Weerd: So 14 more. This way what we gain from that is we gain park impact
fees and development to city standards.
McKinnon: That's correct, curb, gutter, sidewalk, and fire hydrahts.
De Weerd: And then with the well site how is that working?
McKinnon: How does the well site work? We would procure the water rights.
We would develop the well, build the well, and operate the well. We would hire a
private company to maintain the well and to operate the well. The only thing that
we would require from the city is for the city is for the testing of the well for DEQ
standards and Central District Health standards on a monthly basis or as
required by those health districts. We would have somebody maintain that and
operate that because it would be a private system that operates separately from
the city's system. This would not connect as a loop system with the city at this
time. In the future, as the city annexes out in that area this would be a well that
would be built to city standards. The city would be given the opportunity to
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review the plans for the well to make sure that it meets the requirements of DEO
and the city. As the city develops out in that area, they would have the option to
purchase the well. Currently, a well in that area without such an agreement if
Lee was or if we were to build a well in that area, somebody a private service
company could come in and purchase that well such as United Water. This way
if the City of Meridian has first right or refusal the city would be able to continue
to maintain their - I guess it's not their monopoly but they would be able to
control the services in their service area.
Nary: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Nary
Nary: Mr. McKinnon just so I'm clear you said that no further development would
happen until city services available but you want to hook to sewer now.
McKinnon: Black Cat Trunk I'm sorry.
Nary: Okay so you're talking about the rest of the services not just the sewer.
McKinnon: That's correct the rest of the services as Black Cat Trunk extends
down to that area. This wouldn't have a pull on your police force at this time
because this would still remain in Ada County and so we haven't contacted the
Meridian Police Department for that reason. As far as public services it's one of
the major issues would just be the sewer system coming from Black Cat because
the water system could hook up to the existing water system that the City of
Meridian has. That's the way it's worked with Silverstone and other projects
where they've built the wells and the city is coming from behind and purchasing
those wells.
Nary: I guess my other concern is is that the development here I mean for it to
become part of the city it appears that every time in the past a discussion is sent
around the annexation path to get there since it's on the I guess the west side of
Kentucky Ridge. I guess I'm trying to figure out in our crystal ball when do we
realistically think we're going to be able to annex this property. My concern is is
we're going to have these people on sewer with a note on their plat and maybe in
their CC&R's and 10 years from now when we go to annex them because we
finally are contiguous it's the 3'" owner since you developed this property and
they don't know anything about what's on that plat anymore. Now all of a sudden
we're in a big dogfight with these people over being part of the city. I guess I just
don't want to be in that fight. That's not really a question I guess I wonder what
your thoughts are about that. It just seems like that's one of the issues that Boise
has wrestled with for years.
McKinnon: It's a good comment to make. I know that the subdivision you bring
up Kentucky Ridge actually has a note on their plat that says that once sewer
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service becomes available they will require annexation into the City of Meridian.
There is some availability of sewer in that area and Kentucky Ridge could
forcefully be annexed into the City of Meridian. That would create a path for
annexation to the project that we're talking about. It's contiguous to the parcels
that we're talking about tonight. Right now, we're only talking about a very small
portion of the overall development. We're talking about basically 17 or 18 acres
for 44 units but this is a much larger project in the long run. Something on the
same scale as like a Tuscany Lakes, you know the 400 plus units could possibly
be placed in here. One of the comments that you recently as a Council approved
in the amendment to the Comprehensive Plan was that any development that
takes place outside of an area that are annexable would be that you require that
that subdivision or that deed has a restriction placed on it that says upon being
contiguous, they would annex. Your own Comprehensive Plan allows for that.
Vienna Woods was handled in a very similar manner and there are some cat and
dog fights that do happen once people realize that they have to connect to the
city but it's something that it should be disclosed during the process of buying
and purchasing a house. If it's a deed restriction, it's required to be disclosed at
that time. The Comprehensive Plan addresses it and the City of Meridian has
done it in the past. One of the things that we may need to look into is on the
legal side if Mr. Nichols, your attorney has some additional options with that.
Some other ways to make sure that people realize that that's going to happen
you know we can make sure that happens. In addition to that, Lee, as being the
owner of this property in working with us we realize that we only can do 44
homes until those services get there. One of the requirements of the
Development Agreement could be that the remainder of it is annexed into the city
at that time if even be tied to a Development Agreement. The remainder of it -
it's annexed at the same time as the remainder of the property. There are
numerous ways that we could go about doing that and safeguarding it. There
might be some political will that is needed to make that happen just like with all
these other developments but it's something that has happened in the past. It's
in the Comprehensive Plan and we're just trying to abide by the Comprehensive
Plan for that.
De Weerd: I think we almost need to put up signs like we do on our stub streets.
This will be extended and you will be annexed. People don't really always look
on the plats and I probably would have been one of those at one time. It's very
difficult and even in a disclosure type of situation when you're signing already 50
pages of paper work it gets by most homeowners. I guess my other concern is
going to be this well site. You know as established by an independent and I think
we've had this conversation before with Mr. Centers and discussing when we
build a well we give hook up fees to it. It helps defer that cost and I'm sure Mr.
Centers you're looking at that as well. That's also built in the expense or the cost
of that well site. It helps defray that. With him building the well, getting those
costs and then already our ratepayers and our taxpayers lose if we depreciate
and it appreciates. Have you worked with staff in answering - I don't like the
vague well whatever the price is at the time, I think we need to be a little bit more
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specific. We have been ih a couple of situations lately where well sites seem to
be a great profit venture. I just don't understand this but I'm starting to get a little
leery of this well site business. Have you worked with our staff in trying to get
close to at least some perimeters on that?
McKinnon: Let me answer that in a couple of ways. As far as working with staff
on that right now, we've worked with staff on a lot of different issues. That's one
of the issues that we really haven't spent a great deal of time on. It looks like Mr.
Nichols right now he's looking at something. It might actually be the option
agreement that I handed to him to review tonight. The interesting thing about
land and the whole path for annexation issue we've talked about if it takes
several years from now before the path for annexation becomes available land
value in Meridian has not stayed stagnant. It's skyrocketed. If we were to look at
a purchase price right now, for what the land is worth six years from now it could
be doubled what it is. I remember when I started here we were looking at a land
value per acre. People were paying 30,000 dollars. By the time, you know up
until six months ago people were purchasing land for development at 50,000
dollars an acre. That's a huge jump in just about three years time and it's going
to continue to go up. If we're talking about purchasing a well six years in the
future of today's development price that land value has gone up. The cost of
construction has gone up so there has to be some way that the value of that well
can appreciate with the value of the land. One way to offset the cost that you
talked about for the hookup fees for that well would be the fact that the homes
that are in existence right now on that well would not be -those homes wouldn't
pay hookup fees. In the future if it became part of the well system the remainder
of this development the other 300 odd homes in this development could be
required to pay hookup fees to that well if it becomes a city well. There's no
offset on the hookup fees because we're only allowing 44 homes to hook up to
that well and it's a well that we're paying for. The offsetting of hookup fees in the
future if the city purchases that well they could recoup the other homes in the
areas to hook onto that well and hook onto the water system. The idea of the
well depreciating in value over time there may well be some depreciation to that
well. That's the reason we would have an independent appraiser come in and
say this is what the value of this well is today rather than this is what the value of
the well was when you built it five, six or seven years ago. Just one final thought
on the well system. I haven't been a number of private wells that are built to
community standards but I do know typically that and Brad and Gary can help
straighten me out on this if I'm not correct. I belive that we probably could build it
for a little less than what the city could at this time. There may be some offsets
on that.
De Weerd: Well I guess whatever offsets you would have it sounds to me from
what you said will be offset with the increase in the value of the land so I don't
see where we would be coming out ahead on this one.
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McKinnon: I guess there's a little bit of paradigms shift that would need to take
place rather than the city losing and somebody else winning. I guess we would
be looking at it as a win, win situation. We're not looking at selling this to make a
large profit. We're looking at putting this in right now to be able to have the
development for 44 homes. In the future, the well could be used for that. The
city is not required to purchase this well in the future. There's no requirement the
city would have to purchase it. If the city wanted the well, they could purchase it
and an agreement could be made to purchase that well. The city would have the
first right or refusal on that well.
De Weerd: But I think we would be setting ourselves up for something that we
probably don't want to get into. I would like a little bit more thought into this one
specific. I don't know how the rest of the Council feels but I've been told we
would get fair value and boy I think our perception of fair is much different from
the person who was offering that fair deal.
McKinnon: We would be happy to work with staff. If you guys have a way that
would be fair to you that you would believe is something that would work we
would be happy to look at it and take a look at it. We would ask that you take a
look at what we've given to Mr. Nichols tonight and have his opinion as to what
that was. If you guys have any other way of doing it that, you think would be
equitable towards everybody we're more than happy to listen and take a look at
it. We're not looking at trying to make a great killing on this well we're really
looking at developing this land as these 44 units right now. The well is
something that's required for us to do.
Bird: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Dave I have a couple of questions regarding the well. I'm like Tammy it
really concerns me. Actually you say you know you're going to give us a good
.deal but if it's 10 years down the line all that equipment has been 10 years of
use. The line has been 10 years of use and I don't know what kind of life we get
out of that stuff and how much the deal is. I can't see where a well property goes
up. If we do annex you the right of first refusal is null and void because as a city
we're not going to allow anybody in there but us. You're not going to go over and
sell it to United Water because they're not going to be in our systems. I don't -
these well sites and stuff have - and I understand where the developers are
coming from don't get me wrong. I know that you guys have to pay more for your
land and stuff. In the same token these wells that are put in is to your benefit
whether the city puts them in or whether you put them in. I'm positive you guys
can do it cheaper probably than we can. I'm absolutely positive but I also think
that 10 years down the road that we're inheriting something that there could be
problems line, pumps and everything else. They've had wear and tear on them.
You say you're going to hire a private company to run the well for you out there.
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I don't know what private companies they have around here. I know there are
well companies like United Water or the one that's over in Weaver Sub in Boise
and those like that. They actually own the well and they get the money in and
stuff on it. Now who's going to be responsible for the maintenance and how
good are they going to take care of it. The city we take care of ours. United
Water takes care of theirs but some of these small ones get the money and run.
McKinnon: I can address a couple of those issues. About the well and one of
the thoughts I had as you were talking was that there is a possibility that if the
city wanted the well now for the future there's a possibility that the city could take
over the well after the well is built so that any depreciation, maintenance,
operation of that could be in the city. Hookups from that could be right now for
the city. It could become a city owned piece of property that's outside of the city
and that we could do it that way. That would solve a lot of those questions that
you have because we would be purchasing it for what the value is today. The
operations maintenance would handle that in the future. The question that you
asked about who would maintain that there are several different organizations in
town that do that. I happen to be a close acquaintance with one of those people
and you may know him as well. Randy Dearden, Public Work's Director at the
City of Garden City. He actually operates 16 different well systems for
subdivisions in the county and in the valley. He and his staff Tom Meele they
meet all the requirements for all the cert~cations and requirements for operating
and maintaining those systems. That's probably who we would be contracting
with. There are very qualified people that deal with the operation and
maintenance of that. Until such time as the city purchases the well the
operations and maintenance of that well should something break would go back
onto the owner of the well which would be the subdivision at this time. If Mr.
Centers decides to keep ownership of that or if he sells that to someone else
there would be you know an agreement that the owners and assigns, heirs and
assigns whoever owns it would be responsible for that until such time as another
organization takes over responsibility for that well.
Bird: Madam Chairman.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: That brings up another item David. You know you said that until - or he
sells it or something. These people whoever he sells it to and stuff has to know
that once that goes in the city they no longer own that well nor will it be of service
to the subdivision. We've never allowed another one to come in and as long as
I'm on here, we're not going to. Once you're in the city, you're going to be on city
water.
McKinnon: Lee's got something - an answer on that.
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September 23, 2003
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Centers: Lee Centers. I would like to answer a couple of questions. If there's a
dispute on the price of the well the city would have it appraised, I would have it
appraised and that spells out that we just meet in the middle. It would be the
land value goes up but some of the equipment would actually be depreciated
you're correct. Some of those motors depending on how many hours it's got on
there they wouldn't be worth what they were when we put in. To solve the
problem about the maintenance I'm in an agreement and cities can do it. You
can go outside of your city limits and you can do the O&M on these it's not
difficult. We would be good to do that so that you knew how it was taken care of
during the time that -until you decide to do it. The well is probably going to go -
it will go from LC to either the city or the Homeowners Association. Often times
the Homeowners Associations, take it over. If they were to take it over they have
to assume the same and that spells it out in there. They have to assume the
same agreement that I have with the city. It just means if it works if it's a fit when
you come out there then you just take it over and we would come to an
agreement.
De Weerd: But Lee what happens I know that there's been situations where a
Homeowners Association can dissolve itself with the simple majority. If you have
a Homeowners Association that decides that they don't want to exist any longer
who would take over that O&M responsibility.
Centers: That - I had my attorney draft that and he didn't just create it today. It's
some stuff that he found. I believe that spells that out there for quite a few what
ifs. Since you're in a position to be able to take, it over if something should
happen you would have the first stab at trying to fix a problem if one did arise. I
did want to mention too a couple of things. You know as the wells or land prices
go up so do your impact fees or so do your water hookup fees. That should
coincide with any increased prices. I mean your water hookup fees are higher
today then they were 10 years ago and your well prices are higher today then
they were 10 years ago. That should coincide with the cost of developing these
wells.
De Weerd: I just think it needs a little bit further study. I appreciate where you've
been and where we are today. I think we've come a long way. I still don't think
we're there with this well site and I want to know - I would like to have some kind
of analysis done on if we do it and what - a cost analysis on what's being
proposed versus if we do it and how that would effect our rate payers. I think
eventually it's going to affect our ratepayers but Ihave -that's just a guess. I
would like a little bit more concrete numbers on that.
Bird: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
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September 23, 2003
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Bird: I would concur with you on the deal. I know that Mr. Centers needs to get
this decision right away. I would like Mr. Nichols to look over this agreement. I
think, in my mind this agreement has a lot to do on that well. I believe if it is full,
proof like we hope it is that protects the city, and then I don't see too much. I can
see also, so many things coming up on that well 10 years down the road that if
we're not protected that we could wind up and so could Mr. Centers wind up
losing our shirts on the thing. I would like Mr. Nichols to have time to study it and
come back with an opinion on it and see if he thinks it's full proof for us.
De Weerd: What is the timeline Mr. Centers, you're working with as far as when
do you need a decision from the city and how does that effect what you have in
front of the county?
Centers: We don't have anything in front of the county yet. If Mr. Nichols would
review that document we would perfect that. When you are satisfied with it then
maybe we could proceed. I would be much willing to do that.
De Weerd: Okay so right now you're just fact finding and trying to get a better
feel from the Council on where they stand. I would like to hear from the -
McKinnon: Madam President Members of the Council we basically have some
timeframe rather than just an open timeframe. The city is working with the
county right now for the county to adopt the new Comprehensive Plan. That's
one of the timeframes that we're working with is that we'd like to have this in prior
to that adoption. It really doesn't make a big difference. One of the things that
they have with that is that if we don't submit in that time if we don't have some
sort of sense of approval from the city we would rather submit for a cluster
subdivision under the old Comprehensive Plan rather than the new
Comprehensive Plan at the county.
De Weerd: Okay. Mr. Watson did you have something?
Watson: Yes if I could interject into the whole discussion. I know you're focused
on the well lot and rightfully so but I think there is some other bigger picture
issues and I don't mean to direct your thinking on this whole topic that have come
to mind since this was originally proposed two years ago. We talk about sewer
seance and you know it's very easy to put in some dry line sewer and pump it
down somewhere else but as Mr. McKinnon pointed out early in his conversation
Bear Creek is already looking at other property and pumping into that lift station.
Just yesterday, I received a call and a fax from another property that abuts Mr.
Centers eastern boundary asking how to connect to the sewer and if we don't let
them connect to the sewer how do they build a community sewer system. We're
looking at this issue of the well and operation of the water system within these 44
lots but I'm trying to look at the whole area out there and what's really going to
happen to us. My short two and ahalf-page memo to Dave has turned in with his
comments to about eight pages because I've responded to those and I just got
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September 23, 2003
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those done this afternoon. I didn't have a chance to get them to you. There are
still some issues and still some questions not only around the well lot. The
private operation versus the city operation of the water system is huge. Whether
we can do it financially is it even wise to do it. If we don't do it and a private
provider comes in what is the realistic mechanism for us to come in and take that
over given the likelihood of annexation someday. Vienna Woods and Edinburgh
were brought up. Those were a little different because at that time, we did have
authority over the platting procedure to the county but we no longer have that.
Once you approve a Development Agreement and approve providing sewer and
water, you're done. We don't have that plat anymore to look at any of these
things. Those are just a few of the things. I've kind of got a couple of pages of
notes here. There are a few things to work on. I can put together my responses
to Dave's letter. I guess in the long run I would be -does the Council want a
recommendation memo from Public Works -
Bird: Yes.
Watson: -- in the end. It's obviously going to take some time. We need to
review these documents that they've provided to Mr. Nichols. This isn't going to
happen in two weeks I don't think. Some kind of financial analysis on this well in
itself if I had nothing else to do would probably take a week to two weeks just to
provide - to hear the figures and to go over it with Stacy. I guess my point is this
is a big thing not just a well lot.
De Weerd: And not much has changed as far as some of the concerns that were
brought up originally this is just a smaller version of it.
Watson: Council Member de Weerd if we have to provide water to 400 lots or 44
lots or sewer we still have to figure out how to do it. It's a different way but we
still have to figure out how to do it and we have to figure out how to make it a
long-term solution from this little tiny short-term solution. The' one final point, that
I'll bring up and I guess I'm editorializing a little bit but it's very difficult and
frustrating for staff and I think for the public when they come in to talk to us about
these properties to give an answer. We don't know what to tell them -
***End Of Side One***
Watson: -- we have not recommended approval of any community water or
sewer systems any interim solutions but it's getting more difficult to tell them that.
Especially this woman that called me yesterday I didn't have an answer for her. I
said well this is on the agenda tomorrow night you're welcome to attend and
listen to what we have to say.
De Weerd: Now Brad what is the timeframe. I know with the Black Cat sewer
line going down you're bringing that to the interchange or to I-84 is that correct?
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
September 23, 2003
Page 16 of 19
Watson: Well Council Member de Weerd the current scope of the project brings
it to Ten Mile Road.
De Weerd: To Ten Mile.
Watson: Conceivably we could change order our contract and bring it to the
north side of the interstate if Eastbourne Development provides us with a site
plan where they want it to go. That's the only space left to go but they don't have
a site plan on it (inaudible) so we can't really negotiate for an easement with
them.
De Weerd: What is the timeframe even on the Black Cat Trunk.
Watson: The current project it's intended that it would be operational late
summer early fall 2005.
De Weerd: 2005 so providing service south of the interstate can still be at least
2005 and then depending on what Eastbourne does and how the interchange
comes out which is as early as 2007 at the earliest development in that area of
town is not even possible until after that?
Watson: Council Member de Weerd I'll give you the same line I give everyone
that comes in asking about property. The current project is what I told you slated
to be done 2005 it brings it roughly to Ten Mile Road. We don't have any more
of that project in any capital improvement plan. If a group of developers decided
to bring it along that would be up to, you folks to approve that sort of project but
the city itself doesn't currently have any plans and I can't guess as to a year.
De Weerd: Well it sounds like there still needs to be some discussion and
certainly give staff time to respond to the letter that you wrote David and see
where we're at. We can put this on our agenda. It sounds like two weeks would
not give you sufficient time Brad?
Watson: Council Member de Weerd I can respond to Dave's letter tomorrow. It's
drafted now but it has more questions in it. I feel like we're going to go back and
forth here for a while. Ultimately you want a recommendation memo. There are
enough questions and issues here I don't know what the timeline is. If it's two
weeks a month or two months. It seems like every time we have questions more
things come up. If you wanted to put it off for two weeks and see where we are,
we can see what we can put together.
De Weerd: Council
Nary: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
September 23, 2003
Page 17 of 19
Nary: I guess I don't know that we have a lot of options at the moment other than
a couple of weeks. I do think Mr. Centers deserves an answer within a
reasonable time. He has brought together a good project that is very attractive to
what we would like to do but there are concerns. I think we all understand that I
don't know if we're going to have an answer to him at all, I mean I really don't. I
don't think you know Mr. Centers owned that property for a long time and we
have an obligation to serve it or not have it in our impact area. We've had that
discussion before too. I think we do need to keep this before us at least to the
point where we can say well we can't do anything more than where we are. I
think two weeks is our next meeting and I think we need to keep it in the forefront
at least at this point. I guess I would ask that we continue it for two weeks and
we'll see where we are. I think if we let it get off this radar screen, it's not very
fair to Mr. Centers. I think we have to be fair to what he would like to do and he
deserves an answer as well. I think at least today that's the best we could do.
De Weerd: Mr. Centers.
Centers: I just want to say you know I've worked on this for a couple of years.
I've taken a number of different stabs at it. There is capacity for the sewer out
there. You've -policy has been changed for different projects. The well can be
worked out. What he's got I mean nothing is full proof but it gives you all the
legal rights to do what you had to do out there. If they don't annex I mean you
can shut their sewer off there are all kinds of things you can do. If you don't I
mean it's a quarter mile from city limits. When you approved Kentucky Ridge, I
had my attorney make sure that it said when services were available which is
30l) feet that Kentucky Ridge would be annexed into the City of Meridian. You
go to the county they don't want to do it. If you guys would annex Kentucky
Ridge like it was supposed to be I'd have my annexation route, I would have
water and sewer stubbed to the property. I have to do something with it. It's a
quarter mile from city limits and if you keep coming up with all these reasons why
you cannot service this then you're going to get acreages. There's nothing else I
can do about it.
De Weerd: And I think that needs to be part of the staffs recommendation.
We've said it before Lee, it needs to be a matter of what we do here and how we
can -our ability to serve this piece of property or not and how long that would be
and what you're willing to deal with. We need to service it in a reasonable
amount of time. If we can't do it it shouldn't be in our area of impact and then
you do need to do your acreages or whatever. I know from a planning
perspective it's best to have the urban densities because you have other
properties around there but I think those are all considerations that need to be
brought into staffs recommendations when they bring them back to us.
Centers: You know going back to Kentucky Ridge I remember when I came in
front of the city and said why don't you annex Kentucky Ridge and they said
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
September 23, 2003
Page 1 S of 19
because they didn't have sewer capacity. That it's wandering going into another
drain, which is two thirds of Bear Creek. I mean we're not -this isn't fair we're
not playing by the same rules. Year after year, it's always something else,
something else and you know now we're focusing on a well that could easily be -
you can go out there and do the O&M on it. You'll know what you're dealing with,
you'll inspect it, and you can approve the drawing.
De Weerd: I think what you'll always find as the first person in is always most
heavily scrutinized because we don't have a policy on this. We haven't -our
policy has been not to do this and so even that you've gotten this far I think is
that our staff is trying to work with you on this. Let's see what we - we do need
to move on with our agenda but let's see what we can work out in the next couple
of weeks. Dave's very familiar with the issues that we deal with on the city side
as well so maybe we can get a lot done in these next two weeks.
Centers: Okay.
De Weerd: Okay
Centers: Yes.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Item 4. Presentation of Alternative Methods of Financing:
De Weerd: Okay Item Number 4 is discussion of bonding options and I have no
idea how Councilman Nary added it to the agenda. I think I'll just open it up to
Floyd and have him come up and talk to us about how we can look at capital
projects and different funding mechanisms, funding choices that are available as
well as how do you initiate the process of looking at these things from a citizens
perspective. I'm sorry I didn't know Eric or Floyd which one of you.
Ayers: Thank you Madam Chairman just one little bit of background. We met
with the Mayor in late August and talked about some of these concepts. At that
point, we were invited to speak to the entire Council in Executive Session. That's
why we came tonight prepared to do that. I understand Councilman Nary's
concems and comments. I can't argue with him. There is a provision in the
statutes for property and for personnel issues in Executive Session but not
financing that I'm aware of. We're prepared to do that we just wanted to say to
the Council it's not our goal to make it an election issue. We'll either make the
presentation tonight or we'll come back in November and make the same
presentation at the Council's pleasure.
De Weerd: I don't think -we've already had a presentation from someone else
less than a year ago about different funding. It's all in line of as we do our future
planning and look further down the road where we're going and how we're going
~aQ~~