HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995 05-02MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL
TUESDAY, MAY 2, 1995 - 7:30 P.M.
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING HELD APRIL 18, 1995:(APPROVED)
ORDINANCE #703 - W.H. MOORE STREET EASEMENT VACATION:
(APPROVED)
2. ORDINANCE #704 - ASCHENBRENNER SEWER EASEMENT VACATION:
(APPROVED)
3. FINAL PLAT: LA PLAYA MANOR, 79 LOTS BY PIONEER INVESTMENTS:
(APPROVED)
9. DEPARTMENT REPORTS:
A. SHARI STILES, ZONING ADMINISTRATOR:
1. UPDATE ON HUNTS BLUFF NO. 2 TWO STORY HOUSES:
2. FOTHERGILUBEDFORD SUBDIVISION DITCH PROBLEM:
(48 HOURS TO FILL DITCH TO ORIGINAL DESIGN)
3. CHAMBERLAIN ESTATES DRAINAGE POND:
(SEND LEGAL NOTICE TO REMEDY THE POND)
B. WALT MORROW, COUNCILMAN:
1. CONDEMNATION OF OLD SCHOOL: (APPROVED)
2. PERSONNEL POLICY 11
D. R • R ,
1. 92-93 FY AUDIT: (APPROVE)
10. EXECUTIVE SESSION:
MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL MAY 2 1995
The regular meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order by Mayor Grant P.
Kingsford at 7:30 P.M.:
MEMBERS PRESENT: Walt Morrow, Max Yerrington, Bob Corrie:
OTHERS PRESENT: Will Berg, Wayne Crookston, Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Jim Rees,
David Turnbull, Amy Dwaymwith, Carol Ann Mocey, Terry Smith, Julie Weston, Malcolm
MacCoy:
MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING HELD APRIL 18,1995:
Kingsford: Are there any corrections, additions or deletions to those minutes? Entertain
a motion to approve.
Morrow: So moved
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Bob to approve the April 18th minutes, all those in
favor? Opposed?
ITEM #1: ORDINANCE #703 - W.H. MOORE STREET EASEMENT VACATION:
Kingsford: AN ORDINANCE VACATING A PORTION OF BLOCKS 1, 2 AND 3 OF
MERIDIAN BUSINESS AND INDUSTRIAL PARK SUBDIVISION AS FILED FOR RECORD
IN THE OFFICE OF THE ADA COUNTY RECORDER, BOISE, IDAHO, IN BOOK 51 OF
PLATS AT PAGES 4274 AND 4275, WHICH SUBDIVISION LIES IN THE SOUTH 1/2 OF
SECTION 7, TOWNSHIP 3 NORTH, RANGE 1 EAST, BOISE MERIDIAN, MERIDIAN,
ADA COUNTY, IDAHO, WHICH PORTION IS A 5 -FOOT WIDE STREET EASEMENT ON
BOTH SIDES OF THE 50 -FOOT WIDE DEDICATED STREET RIGHT-OF-WAY ON EAST
FIFTH AVENUE, KING STREET, AND BALTIC PLACE; AND PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE
DATE. Is there anyone from the public that would like Ordinance #703 read in its entirety?
Seeing none I would entertain a motion on Ordinance #703.
Yerrington: Mr. Mayor I move we adopt #703 with the suspension of the rules.
Morrow: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Max, second by Walt to approve Ordinance #703 with the suspension
of the rules, roll call vote.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 2
ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Yerrington - Yea, Corrie - Yea, Tolsma - Absent
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
ITEM #2: ORDINANCE #704 - ASCHENBRENNER SEWER EASEMENT VACATION:
Kingsford: AN ORDINANCE VACATING A SEWER EASEMENT GRANTED BY
LEONARD A. AND FREDA NADINE ASCHENBRENNER, WHICH IS IN A PORTION OF
GOVERNMENT LOT 2 IN THE NE 1/4, SECTION 3, T.3N, RAW, B.M., WHICH
EASEMENT RECORDED AS INSTRUMENT NUMBER 7903178, RECORDS OF ADA
COUNTY, IDAHO; AND PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE. This is an easement that
was never utilized in the sanitary sewer system. Is there anyone from the public that
would like to have Ordinance #704 read in its entirety? Seeing none I would entertain a
motion for approval.
Yerrington: Mr. Mayor, I move that we approve #704 with the suspension of the rules.
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Mr. Max Yerrington, second by Bob Corrie to approve Ordinance
#704 with the suspension of the rules, roll call vote.
ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Yerrington - Yea, Corrie - Yea, Tolsma - Absent
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: Entertain a motion to authorize the Mayor to sign and the City Clerk to attest
then the quitclaim deed transferring that easement.
Morrow: So moved
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Bob to authorize the Mayor to sign and the City
Clerk to attest the quitclaim deed moving back to the Aschenbrenners, all those in favor?
Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
ITEM #3: FINAL PLAT: LA PLAYA MANOR, 79 LOTS BY PIONEER INVESTMENTS:
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 3
Kingsford: Does the Council have any questions of the developer or staff?
Morrow: I guess I would question both Gary and Shari, both your letters dated or at least
Gary's dated April 28th by way of Bruce, that includes all of your comments, have there
been any late additions to those?
Smith: No there hasn't.
Morrow: Shari, everything is fine with you?
Stiles: I did not actually review this, Bruce kind of covered me on most of his comments,
he took care of my concerns too.
Morrow: I don't' have any further questions of staff.
Kingsford: Any other Council have questions or comments?
Morrow: I would like to have the developer or his representative address the comments
by staff please.
Rees: My name is Jim Rees, MTC Engineers, I am the engineer, I don't think we have any
problems with them Walt.
Morrow: You are in agreement with all the comments and site specific comments that staff
has put forward? As well as the fire department?
Rees: I believe so, the fire department's only comment was the single entry and that is all
we have.
Morrow: Nampa Meridian?
Rees: We are in the Settlers Irrigation District, its Settlers, we are going to build an
irrigation system that will be to Nampa Meridian standards which I believe is the City of
Meridian standard. There is a letter from Nampa Meridian but there is also a letter from
Mr. Kirby to Settlers Irrigation District basically saying that we will, all the lots we combine
into a single assessment as per their request.
Morrow: Now that is per Settlers request?
Rees: Yes
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 4
Morrow: Apparently Nampa Meridian is confused then from the standpoint they have some
rather lengthy comments concerning this project.
Rees: Well, I have a letter from them, it is interesting that we are paying Settlers water
Walt and that is who we are getting the water from.
Kingsford: I think part of the issue goes back to and I don't know whether they have signed
any kind of an agreement, part of the issue went back to if they are in the Settlers District
that you build to Nampa Meridian specifications and they were going to deal with maybe
maintaining and operating that distribution system. And so I think they have had some
overlap in their responses but I don't think they have ever signed any kind of a contract to
my knowledge.
Morrow: I have no more questions.
Kingsford: Any other questions? Thank you, is the Council prepared to take action?
Morrow: Mr. Mayor I would move that we approve the final plat for La Playa Manor
Subdivision subject to staff conditions being met.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Max to approve the final plat of La Playa Manor
Subdivision, 79 lots by Pioneer Investments subject to staff conditions being met, all those
in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
ITEM #4: REQUEST FOR TIME EXTENSION FOR FIELDSTONE MEADOWS NO. 4:
Kingsford: Does the Council have any questions regarding that?
Morrow: How much time are they asking for? Our letter from Tracey Persons of Hubble
Engineering doesn't state a time.
Kingsford: Shari, are you guys familiar with their request?
Stiles: Mayor Kingsford and Council they have requested a one year extension and will
also be submitting a request for an extension to file their preliminary plat for phase 5. I just
got a letter to that effect today.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 5
Kingsford: Is that attributable to economic issues?
Stiles: Yes and the sales of the lots in his other subdivisions.
Kingsford: Other questions of the Council.
Morrow: Mr. Mayor 1 would move that we grant a one year extension on Fieldstone
Meadows No. 4.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Max to grant a one year extension on Fieldstone
Meadows No. 4, all those in favor? Opposed?
iffl• j" 110M IT -
ITEM #5: PROCLAMATION: NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER:
Kingsford: WHEREAS, we see the nation as being in a time of much need spiritually,
socially, economically, and in other ways; WHEREAS, by Joint Resolution of Congress
approved in 1952, the recognition of a particular day set aside each year as a National
Day of Prayer has become part of our unification as a great Nation. This is a day on which
the people of the United States are invited to turn to God in prayer and meditation in
places of worship or as groups and individuals; and WHEREAS, each President has
proclaimed, annually, since 1952, a Day of Prayer to the Nation, resuming the tradition
started by the Continental Congress. NOW, THEREFORE, I, Grant P. Kingsford, Mayor
of Meridian, Idaho, do hereby proclaim Thursday, May 4, 1995 as NATIONAL DAY OF
PRAYER in Meridian, and I encourage all citizens of the Municipality to gather together
on that day for 5 minutes, at noon to pray in his or her manner, for unity of the hearts of
all mankind.
ITEM #6: PROCLAMATION: SPOTLIGHT OUR SCHOOLS WEEK:
Kingsford: WHEREAS, our children are the most important asset of the Meridian
community, and; WHEREAS, the mission of the Joint School District No. 2, the Meridian
School District, is to provide students with the knowledge and skills which will foster a life-
long love of learning and the desire to become contributing members of our modern
society, and; WHEREAS, Joint School District No. 2 is the largest employer in our
community, and; WHEREAS, in addition to the efforts of the employees of Joint School
District No. 2, individuals and businesses located in our community generously contribute
significant time and resources to support our schools, and WHEREAS, through the
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 6
combined efforts of the teachers, personnel, and administration of Joint School District No.
2, and with contributions of both business and individuals to our schools, our children are
provided with the tools to become contributing members of our community which enhances
the quality of live of all community residents, and; WHEREAS, it is important that the
teachers, personnel, and administration of our School District, as well as the numerous
individuals and businesses who support our schools, receive recognition for their efforts;
NOW, THEREFORE, I, Grant Kingsford, Mayor of the City of Meridian, do hereby proclaim
the week of May 1 through 5, 1995 SPOTLIGHT OUR SCHOOLS WEEK the officials of
this City, and all citizens thereof, to recognize the profound impact the efforts of the
teachers, personnel, and administration of Joint School District No. 2, as well as the
individuals and businesses who contribute so generously to our schools, have upon our
children and, respectively, our community. DATED this 2nd day of May, 1995.
ITEM #7: WATER/SEWER/TRASH DELINQUENCIES:
Kingsford: This is the inform you in writing if you choose to you have the right to a pre-
determination hearing at 7:30 P.M., May 2, 1995 before the Mayor and City Council to
appear in person and to be judged on the facts and defend the claim made by the City that
their sewer, water and trash bills are delinquent. You may retain Counsel. Your service
will be discontinued on May 17, 1995 unless payment is received in full. Is there anyone
from the public that wishes to contest their sewer, water or trash delinquency? Seeing
none I would entertain a motion to approve the turn off list.
Yerrington: So moved
Morrow: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Max, second by Walt to approve the turn off list, all those in favor?
Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: They are hereby that they may appeal or the have the decision of the City
reviewed by the Fourth Judicial Court pursuant to Idaho Code. Even though they appeal
their water will be shut off. The amount of the turn off list this month is $17,168.43.
ITEM #8: APPROVE BILLS:
Corrie: Mr. Mayor, I move we approve the bills.
Yerrington: Second
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 7
Kingsford: Moved by Bob, second by Max to approve the bills, all those in favor?
Opposed?
• • �
ITEM #9: DEPARTMENT REPORTS:
Kingsford: Shari
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council I wanted to update you on the Hunts Bluff No. 2, after
reviewing it with Wayne Crookston we have come to the conclusion that the City really
cannot restrict those lots to one story homes even though the developer indicate during
the public hearings that he didn't intend to build two story homes there. It is just another
indication that we are going to have to pin them down item by item, particularly when it is
an already annexed piece of property. He did make some statement about not having it
and that he would prefer not to have that restriction on him, but he would stick to the one
story houses if it would make that adjacent property owner happy. But unfortunately no
conditions were put on the plat that said there would be one story homes there. That is
kind of the conclusion Wayne and I came to, I don't know if you like it.
Morrow: Let me ask for some clarification, obviously part of our approval process is based
on what is represented to us during the testimony. I would think speaking for myself that
essentially he committed to one story homes there along that common property line. I
think that is part of doing business or part of the approval thing. Now, where is this falling
apart, how come we can't hold a man to what he said he was going to do?
Stiles: That is kind of my question too, when it came up, what happened was he initially
submitted the plat to Planning and Zoning with 20 lots. What got approved at Planning
and Zoning was not what was presented to the Council, he added more lots which what
he had was 11,000 to 13,000 square foot lots around the culdesac which would have given
him plenty of room to have the 1600 square foot homes on a single level. He had
squeezed in more lots in there which has tightened up the lots to the point where it may
not be possible to have have a 1600 square foot home due to the size of the lot. When,
Mr. Stillwaugh had continually written the City about it and apparently he got a phone call
from someone in City Hall is what he says, apparently in response to a letter he wrote to
Wayne Forrey voicing his concern. He got a call back from City Hall that said the
developers agreed to have one story homes there and it was a word of mouth kind of
thing, nothing written down and agreed to. I agree with you as far as if somebody says
they are going to do something they had better do it. But legally since the 2 story thing
didn't really come up until the variance, which was a variance for tiling the ditch, which had
nothing to do with the 2 story homes, but apparently the variance application this Don
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May 2, 1995
Page 8
Stillwaugh had seen the new configuration of lots and that is when he became concerned,
but the findings didn't address it because it was a public hearing for tiling of the ditch.
Morrow: So, have we reviewed the recorded minutes?
Stiles: I haven't listened to all of those minutes, but there are a couple of statements in the
public hearings that, one of them was, I have no intention of having 2 story homes there,
I am not saying there might not be one but and that is where it left off. Another statement
he made was if it comes down to it I am willing to not have the 2 story homes there if that
will help him feel comfortable with that. I don't want to put that restriction on myself unless
have to. So apparently he didn't and no one else did either.
Morrow: Well, I was under the impression that when we approved it we put that condition
on.
Stiles: The actual approval, let's see, it was part of the variance so all that was moved at
that time was to have findings of fact and conclusions of law prepared for the tiling of the
ditch which wouldn't have included anything, any of that testimony because it really didn't
have anything to do with the matter that was at hand, the real matter.
Kingsford: (Inaudible) discussion of that at final plat then?
Stiles: The final plat had been approved prior to this variance application even being
submitted.
Kingsford: Flight, but there was no discussion of the 2 story houses at final plat?
Stiles: I believe there was some concern, there was more concern about the size of the
houses be 1600 square feet next to Meridian Greens, that was all I really saw during the
public hearing was that.
Kingsford: I believe they also talked about a shake roof.
Crookston: Mr. Mayor, there was consistent statements from the developer of Meridian
Greens as to a desire to have the house sizes match the house sizes in Meridian Greens.
There had previously been restrictions on Sportsman Point and as I understand it from the
record that I reviewed the same restrictions were placed on Hunts Bluff No. 1. There were
restrictions placed on Hunts Bluff No. 2 regarding the square footage that there be 1500
throughout the entire subdivision but with 1600 square foot homes on those lots that
fronted Meridian Greens. There was, when the final plat came before the City Council,
there was a memorandum from Wayne Forrey to the Council that stated that the developer
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May 2, 1995
Page 9
had committed to height restrictions but there is no evidence that the Council took action
on Mr. Forrey's recommendation. There is nothing on the plats that reveals a height
restriction, there is nothing in, there is no comment whatsoever in the annexation and
zoning because that occurred approximately, more than a year before Hunts Bluff No. 1
and over almost 3 years prior to Hunts Bluff No. 2. If we were talking about a restriction
for height it would have been better to have done that at the annexation and zoning. We
do not have a height restriction in the zoning ordinance except as to a maximum height for
houses. It doesn't speak to single story or 2 story or 3 story it just says 35 feet I think in R-
4, R-8 I think it is 40 feet in R-15 and R-40. That is the only height restriction we have
without placing it on there or without an agreement by the developer I think it is very
difficult to put that on a developer because we don't have it in our ordinance.
Morrow: This was not part of the development agreement of this phase was not subject to
a development agreement?
Stiles: It was annexed back in 1990 and it never came up except as a comment of Wayne
Forrey that it should have a development but it couldn't be required because that is a
condition of annexation.
Crookston: It was annexed in 1990. 1 agree with you that when a developer makes those
representations and had the developer made those representations in a proceeding that
related to the plat and particularly the annexation but at least the plat I think that we would
have a much better case. He made the representations on the variance request and while
they were made we didn't push forward on it and require it. It is not on the plat it is not a
requirement of approval of the plat. There is no statement about restrictions regarding it
other than in the variance proceeding as I read it.
Morrow: So Mr. Mayor, what is your interpretation of this?
Kingsford: Well, I guess I agree with Wayne, if it is not in the discussion at the time of the
platting and we don't have a specific requirement of him he has agreed to either in a
development agreement or on the plat we are on pretty thin ice.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor or Shari, refresh my memory, who is the developer here?
Kingsford: Marty Goldsmith
Corrie: That is what I thought, thank you.
Morrow: What are your thoughts Bob?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 10
Corrie: I agree with the Mayor, I don't like it either, I think we made a mistake, we are
going to have to bite the bullet and go with it.
Kingsford: How many of those lots are not developed yet?
Stiles: There are probably 3 or 4, they are about the only ones left in the subdivision.
Kingsford: I think at a minimum Council let's see if we can get Marty in here and negotiate
that, the ones that are still open. He did make those commitments I don't know if we could
force him to, but I think he may want to do business with us again.
Corrie: I would like to sit down and talk with him.
Morrow: Let me propose a motion then that we continue to hold building permits for those
affected lots until Mr. Goldsmith has made an appearance before the City Council.
Kingsford: City Council or individuals, do you want to meet with him individually and
discuss it?
Morrow: No I prefer to do it in the public arena. Obviously if the guy is not going to keep
up with his word we need to have it in the public arena we need to have minutes on it and
we need to have iron tight stuff. As far as I am personally concerned being in the industry
he has forfeited the right to have individual conversations with any elected official because
he is not keeping up with his word period. That is how I feel about it.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor I agree with Walt, I question whether we can do the complete, stop the
building and then (inaudible).
Kingsford: Let's have a second to the motion and then discuss it.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Max to withhold building permits on the affected lots
until a discussion is held in the City Council meeting with Mr. Goldsmith, Mr. Crookston
you statement?
Crookston: There is a builder who has called me, I believe his name is Mr. Coleman, he
does have plans before the City Building Inspector. I think we are on the basis of, just a
smudge or more at risk if we halt or stop building permits the way I feel that it stands for
a builder that has submitted an application for a building permit.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 11
Kingsford: I would agree and 1 think that ought to be treated as the ones that are standing.
But certainly on those other lots, if there are some we need to deal with Marty.
Crookston: I agree with that completely, I don't like the way it is going but I think this is the
way we have to proceed with it.
Kingsford: Mr. Morrow, would you amend you motion to include those lots not either built
or applied for?
Yerrington: I withdraw the second.
Morrow: I would amend my motion.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Max to withhold building permits on the non -built,
non -submitted lots adjoining Meridian Greens until a meeting has been held with Mr.
Goldsmith in the City Council, all those in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: You will notify Mr. Goldsmith Will.
Morrow: I have a question quite candidly, is this Mr. Coleman a single level or a 2 story
home?
Coleman: It is a (inaudible) when we bought the lot, it is a pre -sale house. When we
bought the lot of course there was nothing on the plat or in the CC&R's saying there was
a height restriction. Now we are being told that particular lot might have a single story
requirement and we are having a hard time with that in the fact that it was nowhere in the
public records. It was just brought up after the fact it seemed like. If this was a spec house
it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me but it is a pre -sell, people pick the lot and they pick
the plan and I would just be in a difficult situation going back to them and telling them well
by the way this lot is not a lot we can build a 2 story house on. Usually we have to be able
to rely on the final plat if there is a restriction on a particular lot we have to be able to look
at the plat and have come confidence in the plat.
Morrow: Thank you, I would like to make one more comment. I think that this is a perfect
example here of the City not getting what they want. Obviously Mr. Coleman and his
clients are certainly entitled to press ahead with their project based on what they believed
to be accurate. I think it further underscores the need to have any restrictions that we
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May 2, 1995
Page 12
place on any subdivision at point of annexation on the plat so that it notifies the entire
world, I have made that comment several times in my 16 months here and I think this
points up another example of having to have that stuff on the plat. I guess word to the staff
is let's make sure it gets there in the future. That is what we need to do.
Smith: Mr. Mayor, can I same something. In the length of time that I have been City
Engineer the final plat on a subdivision has always been considered to be a survey
document. I was noticing on the last plat that I signed which was the Landing No. 7 that
there were something upwards of 17 or 18 notes on that plat. It completely occupied the
bottom third of the plat sheet. I am just concerned that if we take all of the restrictions and
I can understand what Councilman Morrow is saying because that plat is what the builders
see. That is what the developers offer and their realtors offer to the builders and that is
what they see. But I am just concerned that the plat is going to turn into something other
than that it was intended to be and that is a survey document that shows the legal
descriptions of the lots, distances, bearings, numbers, the boundaries of the subdivision.
Kingsford: Where would you put it where we have a legal tag on it, if it is not on the plat?
Smith: It just seems to me that the CC&R's of the subdivision is the document that should
be used to describe the conditions of building and living in that subdivision. CC&R's carry
numerous restrictions, conditions for the subdivision.
Kingsford: The problem I see with that Gary is the City has never wanted to be in a
position of enforcing CC&R's. Yet if we place that restriction we put it in the CC&R's we
would be more or less obligated to help enforce that.
Morrow: May I throw the other issue in with respect to CC&R's at some point in time the
Homeowners Association becomes the administrator of that, they could amend for
undeveloped lots, amend those CC&R's in such a manner that something different could
be done than what was intended by the City to begin with. I think the other thing is that
typically on plats that we receive in the industry if there is a restriction of some sort that
is specific to a certain lot or group of lots they are either signified right on the plat, one of
which 1 saw yesterday in terms of a Riverside Village lot that simply said no 2 story right
within the confines of the lot. Other areas that have site corridors and those kinds of
things are denoted by cross hatching or diagonal marking or something like that, that calls
the attention to the whole world if you will that there is something unique about those
particular lots. What it does I think by being on the plat is it puts everybody on notice that
there is something unique and they need to follow up and do further research. Maybe in
the CC&R's all the specifics can be addressed but I really think that at some point on the
plat there has to be something there that notes there is something unique going on so that
everybody is of notice. From a builder standpoint it is often we get for example, we always
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May 2, 1995
Page 13
get a plat map because that is what we have to site the house by is the plat map. Often
times we never see a set of CC&R's or we get an encapsulated version that simply hits the
highlights as to square footage. Some of the CC&R's Gary that we now receive are in
excess of 100 pages and so where do you work your way to find out some of these things
if you are not noticed on the plat that in that document there is something unique about a
particular lot or pari: of the subdivision or whatever.
Kingsford: I think Gary's point is we don't want to clutter it up too much, so there might be
a balance somewhere.
Crookston: I think the way that we could handle is to just have a note on the plat to see the
restrictions placed by the City of Meridian on this plat. That are not shown on the plat, tell
them that it is there, put them on notice that there are other restrictions that are not on the
plat but that they do apply to the particular subdivision then they are put on notice as to
that requirement. If they don't go look at them that is their problem.
Kingsford: Then you have increased the bureaucracy at City Mall and more people have
to come in and sift through those records and find out what those are. I think you want to
minimize as much you can that sort of thing. Gary, you were about to say something.
Crookston: It could be something that is recorded with the plat, not part of the plat but
recorded at the same time. The other point that was raised was doing this at time of
annexation, just like in this particular instance it happens now even still property is
annexed and we don't know what is going to go on it. It would not bother me in any way
to say we are not going to annex anything until we are presented a development plan.
That is totally up to the Council.
Smith: Mr. Mayor, I don't think we have a problem at this point in having that number of
notes, but I am just concerned because what I am seeing is an evolution of more and more
and more notes being placed on the plat. If we get to a point where the plat has to be at
a scale that is readable especially when it is reduced to maybe what the builders get in
their packet from a realtor. It has to be readable, it has to be legible, and so it has to be
of a certain scale. Our ordinance says that it can't be any smaller than 1 inch equals 100
feet but when you start you getting into the smaller lots that we have had some of which
we don't have many of any more, with all the dimensions and all the bearings shown on
each one of those lots which has to be shown, it gets to be really small. If we get those
subdivision plats larger scale it may get to a point where we have to put notes on another
page of the plat. And that could happen by adding a sheet to the plat. Where we have 2
sheets now, a plat sheet and a signature sheet we may have a note sheet. But again, the
builders are probably only going to see the plat sheet, I don't think you see the signature
sheet now do you? That isn't part of what you need to site the house. I don't know, but it
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May 2, 1995
Page 14
may come to that. I don't think it is there yet, but I have just seen notes evolve from 5, 6,
7 notes, now on this last subdivision like I mentioned there was something like 17 notes
on that page and it gets really busy.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor, as the plat, you have the plat page and the signature page is that page
1 of 2 and 2 of 2. Maybe we could say it is 3 pages then and then it is up to the developer
whoever it is that they better make sure that they have all of those pages. May not want
to pay any attention to the signature but if there was 3 1 would think that if I were a builder
I would pay attention to the builder.
Kingsford: The notes ought to be the second page (inaudible)
Corrie: That is correct.
Kingsford: Well, dully noted and you have been City Engineer for how long?
Smith: Since 1985.
Kingsford: Longer than 16 months.
Morrow: That is alright I will still challenge him.
Stiles: Mayor and Council the next item is the Bedford Place Subdivision that is adjacent
to Fothergill Subdivision to the north. If you will remember this is the project that was
having a hard time getting their R-8 zoning until they convinced the Council it was the
amenities they were providing were going to enhance the City to the point where you
would welcome this subdivision. The bike path is designated along the South Slough, and
was a natural, I considered it to be a natural waterway that was very pleasing and a nice
amenity. Unfortunately this subdivision has relocated that to in some places as close as
6 feet to the adjacent Fothergill Subdivision. It is close to 10 feet deep, extremely deep
slopes, Gary estimates about 1 1/2 to 1 maybe. This was done last Monday I believe and
the calls immediately started coming and have been coming in on a daily basis. Wanting
to know what is going to be done, threats from people that they were going to sue the City,
realtors going to sue the City, going to sue Brighton, they are going to sue anybody they
can think of. If you have gone out there, if any of you have gone out and looked at this it
is huge, I mean an animal would get caught in it, a human would have a very hard time
getting out of this. When they started digging this they knew full well that they weren't
complying with the plans that had been submitted. The plans showed 4 feet deep and
slopes and 20 feet offset from Fothergill Subdivision. I think at the very minimum we need
to require fencing be put in immediately, their plat hasn't been signed, they have come up
with some options that they came in and talked to us about today. Their final plat was
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 15
approved but they have not approved for a variance from tiling the ditch. Nampa Meridian
tells me it would take a 48 inch pipe. Some of the property owners adjacent are furious that
they haven't had to go through the variance application, they say isn't that an ordinance
of the City and I say yes it it. I don't know if it was an oversight on my part by not making
a comment specifically to do that or the fact that I considered it would be aesthetically
pleasing natural looking waterway that would enhance the bike path lead me not to think
of that requirement. We have a big problem now and safety wise I don' t know if we can
say put that in tomorrow or put it in within 3 days or what we can do. I would like Gary to
address some of the fixes they have suggested today and go over that with you.
Smith: Mr. Mayor and Council members, as Shari mentioned the development plans that
were submitted to the public works department showed an open ditch, relocation of the
South Slough also known as the Finch Lateral along the south boundary of the
subdivision. I believe that it was presented to you in that same format on some colored
drawings that the engineer for the applicant utilized in his presentation for the subdivision.
The ditch was shown to be 4 foot in depth with 2 to 1 side slopes. I think it had a 4 foot
bottom width. As Shari mentioned the depth of the ditch at least in one area where I was,
when I met with the contractor out there there they had a cut stake at 9.7 feet from ground
to invert of the pipe that crosses under the access road from Fothergill into the subdivision.
Obviously the depth of the ditch has created a great concern for the property owners along
the south boundary of this subdivision which is the north boundary of Fothergill. The close
proximity of the top of the bank with respect to the Fothergill property line and the rather
steep side slopes of the ditch. I don't believe, I didn't measure them but I don't believe that
the side slopes are 2 to 1 1 think they are much steeper than that. The engineer and
representative of the developer met with Shari and I today and proposed installing a 6 foot
chain link fence along the boundary line common to Fothergill and Bedford Place. They
also proposed to raise the ditch bottom and they proposed to bench the side slope on the
south side of the ditch which is adjacent to Bedford. Still utilizing a 2 to 1 side slope, but
raise the bottom of the ditch up somewhere in the I think 2 to 3 foot height and then bench
the side slope toward Bedford Place. (End of Tape) I guess that is pretty much the
engineering side of it. The north side of the ditch has the ability for a more gentle side
slope because of the distance that is available from the ditch itself to the roadway. I think
the applicant's engineer has a plan with him tonight that you saw on the original
presentation so you can see that there is a, I don't know how far that is 60 or 70 foot
horizontal space between the bank of the ditch and the edge of the right-of-way in which
will also be the pathway. So there is more room to operate there with a sloping of the ditch
from ditch bottom up to natural ground. I guess the other issue is what Shari mentioned
concerning the variance for not piping the ditch. One thing I would like to say concerning
the volume of water in the ditch is that to the east this ditch crosses through, crosses under
Locust Grove Road where we first became familiar with it, is basically on the boundary
between Pheasant Point which is also known as Howell Tract and Cougar Creek
Subdivision. I believe it extends as it goes west it crosses through Rock Creek as an open
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 16
ditch. Those subdivisions it was left as an open ditch and it was fenced, I can say along
Cougar Creek side for certain. Somewhere in the Rock Creek subdivision area a diversion
takes place and water is taken out of the South Slough or the Finch Lateral diverted into
what is called the Onweiller Lateral which then flows kind of north and west. It crosses
through Bedford Place, I don't know how far north and south but let's say somewhere
through the middle point maybe slightly below the middle point of that subdivision. It
continues onto the west eventually crossing along the north boundary of Lansbury Lane
and towards Joe Simunich's property. At the point upstream of that diversion a 48 inch
pipe would not carry water, it would take a larger pipe than that. From what Shari is telling
me and the size of pipe that this developer that the Bedford developer is installing in the
road crossing is a 48 inch and from what Shari is saying Nampa Meridian has said a 48
inch would carry the water. I guess there are several issues, one is the immediate safety
and concerns of the residents of Fothergill Subdivision. It is difficult to describe the ditch
in words, you need to look at it to get the impact it is substantial. The second thing is can
the ditch be fixed to be safer. And the third issue would be the variance issue and the
variance issue was not addressed by City staff in the review of the project. That in itself
I guess Counselor will have to advise if that condition still exists whether it was addressed
or not since it is part of our ordinance. That is the background that I have on the project.
Kingsford: A 9 foot ditch is as tall as this ceiling
Smith: Yes sir.
Kingsford: I couldn't climb out of there if it was dry.
Turnbull: Probably several things to say, when 1 saw that ditch I was probably as sick as
anybody here and I guess, 1 would like to back up and take out some of the prejudice that
was presented here. We never intended it to be that way, basically there was a crossing
installed at the roadway and that crossing pipe had to be lower to go under the sewer and
water, lower than the natural grade of the ditch. Consequently when it was staked out and
the contractor brought in to dig the ditch he just when from the crossing grade instead of
doing a siphon like should have been done. Consequently the ditch is about 4 feet deeper
than it should be plus the fact that we I think in our cross section have always intended to
taper down on the other side so that basically we could go back still at this time and do a
foot ditch like was proposed originally. I should say it is not a ditch, the Finch Lateral is a
year round stream, it is a natural flowing stream. We have dealt with that in other projects
to the east. We don't expect it to stay that way, we are not proposing that it stay that way,
we are going to do something that fixes the problem. We are not going to leave a 10 foot
deep or 9 foot. 1 think from the profiles that Hubble Engineering has shot it varies but 8 1/2
to 9 foot deep right now and it is not acceptable to us either. I want to assure the residents
of Fothergill Subdivision we are not going to leave it that way and it was a mistake
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 17
probably on the engineers part, maybe on staking, probably on the contractors part for
going forward with it. The fact of the matter is they were done with it in 3 days before we
even got out there to take a look at it. When I got out there I was just sick to my stomach.
So we want to solve the problem but I don't think we have made any misrepresentations
what we proposed from the beginning is what we intended to do. What we still intend to
do if there are some other options we want to look at, I would suggest that we sit down and
look at them. I would like to meet with representatives of City Council, the Mayor, the City
Engineer and even someone from Fothergill Subdivision if they would like to sit down and
decide how we go forward. It is not particularly an unsafe situation at this time because
we haven't diverted the ditch. We have just dug a trench, the Finch Lateral has not been
diverted into that ditch right now.
Kingsford: Well, I take exception Dave, a 9 foot hole is a hazard.
Turnbull: It is not flowing Finch Lateral water.
Kingsford: I have heard of a lot people that have been trapped under dirt, you have mud
out there if it is dry it will slide. I have some concern about it today, I think it needs to be
filled in at least a substantial amount for safety at the moment.
(Inaudible)
Kingsford: I think something has to happen on it almost immediately.
Turnbull: And I am ready to do something Mr. Mayor.
Kingsford: Let's get that filled in at least to 4 foot deep tomorrow. That is what the
development plans called for, if you want to pipe it, I don't have an objection to you
throwing a pipe in it that depth and then burying it in.
Turnbull: I want to take care of it in all haste but we do need to get some direction going
on it. It is not something we did intentionally and not something that I would leave in any
case.
Kingsford: I understand that Dave but there have been a lot of people killed
unintentionally. I certainly don't want that to be the case here.
Turnbull: Well sure Mr. Mayor but it is a construction site right.
Kingsford: It is also the backyard of people.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 18
Turnbull: Well, sure but if we are putting in a sewer pipe too and there are trenches for
that.
Kingsford: Do you have it protected so that people can't get in it. That is what you are
supposed to do with a construction site.
Turnbull: Well, your point is well taken and I want to move forward as bad as the next guy.
Kingsford: Council, what is your feeling?
Morrow: I guess my emotions run the gamut of it being an ultimate responsible party in
our industry that you and I both know there are only 2 guys responsible the general
contractor and the developer. Quite candidly when we make a mistake one of the great
things about our business is we have to fix it on our own time at our own expense. The
issue here is that not being an attorney or anything you are dealing with an issue of an
attractive nuisance. A 9 foot hole in the ground under the conditions that we have now
which is nothing but mud a young child like the young fellow there gets in and doesn't
come out David. And I think I agree with Grant, the deal is so what if it costs a $100 an
hour to fill it full of dirt, $100 and hour for 8 or 9 hours or a $1000 is really inexpensive
compared to the cost of one child or one senior citizen. Where at 9 feet even old guys like
the Mayor would have a tough time getting out. But the point is that I think we need to get
rid of the safety hazard right away and then discuss the solutions. I know it costs money
but a lot of times when we get in trouble and make mistakes in our industry the money has
to be a secondary issue. And I see this as being the case Dave, I think what we do is
somehow either fill it in and I think the fill in is the cheapest and quickest way of solving
the problem and then we discuss the issue of how we want to solve it long term.
Turnbull: Or we go and put up one of those orange type fences.
Morrow: Dave I am not convinced unless you are going to stake the bottom down that
going back to the young fellow there that he is not underneath the fence, or over it or
whatever. To use the example of the sewer thing, usually when our guys are running
those sewer lines they have those steel deals and their trenches is maybe 8 to 10 feet long
and of course it is deep and they have a back hoe parked over the top and it is fairly
isolated from a subdivision. We are talking 5 feet away from the back fence at some parts.
Turnbull: And I understand what you are saying, we do have those kinds of situations with
drain ditches criss-crossing Meridian all over and nobody has been, that happens on the
Ten Mile Drain. I want to assure the Council, I want to assure the residents of Fothergill
we are going to fix the problem. We need to get together with a representative of the
Council and Mayor and engineering and decide how to go forward. I wish I had never seen
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 19
it and like I said it made me sick to my stomach when I saw it. Money is not the big issue
to me either as far as making it safe but I will put up one of those temporary fences around
it, if I have to fill it in to 4 or 5 feet or whatever I guess whatever I have to do.
Morrow: Let me respond to the comment about Ten Mile Creek and the natural drains,
those I think the difference is those aren't something that we all created. We as a City
Council approved the subdivision Bedford Place we approved it with the conditions we
created between you and I and the citizens and the taxpayers in general condition exists
there. Ten Mile Creek there pre -dates all of us here and so the issue there is that is kind
of like beware because it exists. But we are talking about something we created.
Turnbull: I've created
Kingsford: Most of those drains too that you have spoken to are not that deep. One goes
through the golf course or did and I knocked a lot of golf balls in there an I am 6 foot tall
and I could be in the bottom of that and see clearly out so they were not more than 5 feet
deep. There are some that are a little deeper than that. But still Walt's comment is those
were there and clearly people located there knowing it. These folks located there and
there was flat dirt and they have kids and they need to be protected.
Turnbull: I understand.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor, just sitting here listening and observing I think you want to do what is
right, will you do it tomorrow, I mean fill it in tomorrow? You are hesitant to doing this
tomorrow and the Mayor has asked that it be done posthaste by tomorrow. Can you do that
tomorrow?
Turnbull: Well, without having a contractor in my back pocket I am not sure, I can give it
my best effort.
Corrie: I think they are all right, we have a problem here and it needs to be taken care of
and I think it needs to be taken care of before we sit down with Council and different
people and engineers that needs to be filled. I have no qualms that is what you want too,
but we also have a time problem here. So, observing here I see that you want to do it, my
suggestion is that you do it tomorrow before 5:00 if you can. I would like to see that done,
I think we have a real problem here Dave and I think that your cognizant of it and you want
to correct it and I see that. So my suggestion to you would be to get it done tomorrow and
then we can like I say go after the rest of it. I don't want to lose somebody there. I think
that we can get somebody to put some dirt in there tomorrow. You have some contacts
I know you do.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 20
Turnbull: I wish the rain would stop, sometimes it gets too wet that equipment just bogs
down but we will do everything we can to get it done.
Yerrington: How many feet do you have in this ditch, how long?
Turnbull: How many linear feet, 114 of a mile, 1320 feet give or take a foot
Kingsford: I guess just one further comment, are you considering strongly tiling? My
inclination would be a little bit more towards letting you put up a fence temporarily, orange
fence or whatever. If you were going to be throwing in pipe and covering that I would hate
to see you dig it up twice and have the hazard re -opened again. There gets to be a trade
off there. I think those people, if they are looking at having it covered there may be a
certain number of them that would rather see that and have the exposure for a few days
and not have that be an ongoing problem. I am sure there are some other people that
would like to see the water amenity. We have dealt with that with about every
development we have had.
Turnbull: I know and I have some ideas, I was not in the meeting with Gary and Shari and
Gene Smith and Mike Tanner from my office today because I had a doctor's appointment.
I have had some thoughts since then and I think that there are some things that can be
done that would actually make Fothergill residents happier in the long run and even our
own residents. But it is something that I am going to have to at least talk with the Mayor
and a representative of the Council and a representative of the Fothergill and ourselves.
Morrow: So it sounds to me like the answer is that we push dirt in there tomorrow and call
it good.
Turnbull: Call her half way good.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor, what you are saying it would be better for everybody would be to put
the dirt in there tomorrow?
Turnbull: I am thinking we can do some kind of a deal like tiling a portion of it and putting
in some things like, one issue needs to be addressed and I think Max spoke to me about
it is Nampa Meridian Irrigation District is saying absolutely no way are you going to put a
trail system along our easement. And they told us that so I don't know what the City's
position is now whether they are still trying to preserve that option or whether that is
something that is viable. As I look to the east of this project where this easement is all
fenced in and doesn't look terribly practical to me that they were going to get done. So,
one of the things I was thinking about is maybe widening out some of the areas and putting
in tot lots you know some playground for the young children. Maybe even tiling the whole
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 21
thing and putting in some of those basketball court amenities or tot lot amenities. Again
there are some things, probably some considerations that we are going to ask for providing
those extra amenities. So I think that is a discussion that needs to happen and happen
as quickly as possible. I will be at your disposal or disposed. I know it is not something
that is easily solved from this podium.
Kingsford: And I think the realism is that whatever is decided if it is much of a change from
what was approved needs to be publicly noticed and discussed again. I know it is going
to have to be, I know it will have to back through a public hearing. 1 just want to get some
kind of a direction and get the opinions of the surrounding neighbors and members of the
Council and Mayor.
Yerrington: If you tile this ditch would you still fill it up partway before you tile it? You
wouldn't
Turnbull: If we tiled it we would just put it in the bottom of the trench where it is now and
that is the easy thing.
Kingsford: That lines up with the tile that is in the crossing the roadway.
Turnbull: Otherwise you have to create a siphon.
Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I really have mixed emotions about what we are doing here.
understand exactly David's position, I understand the need to buy some time to make the
decisions that are in the best interest of our citizens and of the subdivision. I think what
that says to me is that I would like to move that the ditch be filled within 48 hours to a level
of 4 feet. I am not getting a sense here an I want to do that because I am not getting a
sense here that anybody is in a position to make a commitment other than a commitment
to safety. 1 share your concerns that if the decision is ultimately to tile the entire ditch or
portions thereof it doesn't make sense to dig it twice. But by the same token that decision
could be a couple of weeks away and I perceive the danger to be immediate. And so I
would like to make that motion.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor I feel exactly the same way and I second the motion.
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Bob to require the ditch be filled in to a depth no
deeper than 4 feet within a 48 hour period. If there is some discussion 1 will entertain your
comment, would you come forward and state your name for the record.
Duenos: I am Amy Duenos and I am one of the homeowners of Fothergill. I would like to
speak on the behalf of many residents in Fothergill. We went around, I was just notified
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 22
of this meeting a few hours before it started. In that time we went around the space of
about a block and a half and about every homeowner in there to sign a petition about this
concerning this ditch. Just to let you know how concerned everybody is, this whole
subdivision is pretty much geared towards first time home buyers and most first time home
buyers are young couples with small children. I am glad to see you are concerned for that.
A couple things I would like to say that haven't been mentioned is I am glad to see it is
going to be filled in but I think in the long run if you could allow people from Fothergill to
be in on what decisions are made or at least hear what is going to be on that. About
fencing it if that is one of the choices, I have heard that maybe a chain link fence and all
of the residents are wondering why a chain link fence. Because as a kid you can still see
through a chain link fence and every kid is going to be drawn to the water. Therefore a
chain link fence doesn't really seem to deterring the kids any from getting in there,
because every kid can climb a chain link fence and still get over there. So we all want to
say that we feel first and most important that it should be filled in and if money isn't really
the first issue than that really shouldn't be a problem have it fenced in. If you weren't than
if a big fence and a wooden fence so that the kids cannot see and they could still maybe
climb a wood fence but it is not as easy and it is not as easy to see, they can't see the
water so therefore they are more protected. Our main concern of course is our children,
like I said almost the whole subdivision has kids and we want to make sure that they are
protected.
Kingsford: I understand, of course a wood fence, the problem is that we have experienced
with them over not too long a period they just deteriorate, they do burn as people do clean
up and so forth and you burn fences then you have a worse problem. I am sure that is the
reason for the chain link or ornamental iron or something that will withstand that sort of
thing.
Duenos: Is there anyway that us as the residents can push them for it to be covered
because whereas a chain link fence doesn't seem to be helping can we push, is there
anything we can do as residents?
Kingsford: Certainly if there is a change from what has been approved and of course
those people that were there at that time had opportunity to come in and give testimony
at a public meeting. If it is other than the ditch that is outlined in the plans for this
subdivision it would have to be noticed again and we would take testimony from anyone.
And particularly we would notify those people that were within 300 feet.
Duenos: At this time nobody was notified of it. One other thing about that meeting the
requirements, one of the requirements was 20 feet away from our property and I am one
of the homeowners where it is 5 feet from the back of my property. Since we have just
moved in and (inaudible) we haven't put up a fence and we do have a small son. Would
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 23
they then have to move it 20 feet away from our property to meet the requirements that
were originally given?
Kingsford: That is certainly something that if it changes from that again there would be
notification. Thank you, you heard the motion and second, all those in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Turnbull: I would like to point out that it did take 72 hours to dig the ditch and that was in
dry conditions, we will do our best.
Kingsford: It goes in a lot faster than it comes out, that has been my experience.
Turnbull: Well, that is true and God willing we will get it done. I would also ask and
hopefully this is the appropriate time, when and with whom we could meet and discuss the
issue further.
Kingsford: Let's try and put a meeting together with Mr. Berg, he will notify at least this
young lady and she will pass that along to the rest of the people.
Turnbull: I do appreciate their concerns I do want them to be part of the meeting. Thank
you.
Kingsford: Shari, you have one more item.
Stiles: Yes, just a follow up on this, Bedford Place still requires a development agreement
it needs some changes from what was submitted from the developer. But this issue will
need to be cleared up prior to executing that and any final plat signature. The variance
I guess you are saying since it was approved as a final plat that it is not required that they
apply for one?
Kingsford: That would be my legal assumption at the same time if it is not what is on the
plat than we are going to have to have something happen differently. Where are we at
Counselor, that is the same ditch we have through Fothergill a path, where are you at with
that license agreement with Nampa Meridian?
Crookston: I am not sure where we are at.
Kingsford: A certain Mayor promised 3 irrigation district commissioners that we would do
that and that is pushing a year now. The guy that I am talking about is not a liar so let's
have that done. You have Chamberlain on here do you want to say something about it.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 24
Smith: Mr. Mayor, I think Wayne gave me a copy of that license agreement with Nampa
Meridian to look at for that ditch that runs through, Jackson Drain which is a different ditch
than this one but it is the same
Kingsford: Was it our intent to go on with this one with that same path or is this a different
issue?
Smith: Well, actually the path on the Jackson Drain and the path on the South Slough or
the Finch come together at Meridian and then it becomes, the Jackson Drain runs into the
South Slough at Meridian Road. So from Meridian Road west there would be one pathway.
From Meridian Road east there would be a pathway along the South Slough or the Finch
Lateral and a pathway along the Jackson Drain. So the pathway would fork at Meridian
Road. It would be a different license agreement but in terms of the names of the ditches
but I think that the contents of the agreement would be very similar.
Kingsford: You were with me at that meeting, is it your opinion that is a ditch that they
were talking about that they would be willing to let us have a path along?
Smith: Yes, well, they talked about drains and the South Slough has always been a drain,
but they do take water out of it for irrigation. They take water out of it to put it in the
Onweiler and they take water out of it at Waterbury Subdivision to put into the Creason
Lateral. So they are diverting water out of it as irrigation water and I don't know if the
change of the name from the South Slough which is a drainage connotation to the Finch
Lateral which is an irrigation ditch means that it is no longer a drain.
Kingsford: That is something that maybe Shari you would check on for me and see what
the status is. I think Mr. Turnbull is interested in knowing that too. Certainly we are as we
proceed with this decision.
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council, it depends on who you talk to.
Morrow: Mr. Mayor, question with respect to whether a variance is required or not, is that
the issue we are trying to determine what it is called because our ordinance calls for all
Kingsford: No, this is a different issue Walt, what I am discussing is with regard to the
pathway. The irrigation commissioners are saying and I guess John Anderson that we
can't have pathways along his irrigation laterals. So we need to determine is this a lateral
or is it a drain and can we have a pathway along it. That is going to influence the decision
as to what we do with the ditch.
Morrow: My follow up question was that our ordinance called for all irrigation ditches to be
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 25
covered or tiled. And so
Kingsford: If it is not a drain then probably we are looking at
Morrow: Is this where this gets confused with respect to what David is after and what the
staff was after. If it is a drain than it doesn't automatically get tiled is that correct as per our
ordinances. And if it is a lateral than the ordinance says that it gets tiled.
Crookston: That is basically correct.
Morrow: So the dilemma is all in the name.
Kingsford: Partially of course the other thing that buddies the issue is Gary has found that
we don't have any live ditches in the City limits of Meridian, or natural drains. Chamberlain
Estates drainage pond.
Stiles: Okay, Chamberlain Estates they requested an extension on recording their plat on
December 6, 1994. Council's motion was to extend the grant until April 15th conditioned
up on the gravel pit issue being remedied and if it is not it is dropped. I can't quite get
through this motion here, if it is remedied than it is extended for the calendar year. It has
been a continual problem, all last summer was a problem. We are hopeful when they
asked for the extension in December that would give them some incentive to fix the
problem. They did go out and throw some dirt in there and change the banks a little bit.
We received a letter from Jim Merkle on March 16th that the rough grading of the storm
water pond has been completed. Rich Tomlinson has been to inspect the work, the pond
has been rough graded in accordance with the approved plans. The top banks of the pond
have been bermed up so as not to allow any irrigation run off from adjacent lots into the
pond. As you know this was to be completed prior to April 15th to allow the extension of
the Chamberlain final plat. Please forward this information to the City Council so as not to
affect our plat exterior. What had been done when we received this letter was not in fact
in accordance with the plans. The very first day the irrigation water went in there was a
fountain of water gushing into it. It was filled, not filled to the top but there was a lot of
water in there in a short period of time. The developers engineer has jokingly said that the
adjacent neighbors didn't need to worry about their gophers they wouldn't have a problem
then. The fact is there is no reason for this pond to be there. It was basically a mining
operation done to create the Cougar Creek bike path. It is a nuisance, it is a safety
problem. When there is not water in there kids are parking their cars in there and partying.
Carol Ann Moxley is here tonight she is an adjacent property owner, when I went out to
see her trying to flood irrigate it simply does not irrigate the way it used to. It was not
through her creation of the problem, it was created by this giant sucking pond. I believe
they have done what they said they would do. This has been such a problem and very
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 26
little attention paid to it unless there is some kind of an ultimatum given. I would like the
plat declared null and void, I would even like you to consider de -annexing the property
because it is serving no purpose and it is just a continual problem for staff and the adjacent
property owners.
Kingsford: I can't pass this up, can we name the pond the NAFTA pond? Would you
explain to me how that affects your irrigation?
Moxley: I am Carol Ann Moxley and we purchased the property last April 5th. Shortly after
that I did pull a drowning 8 year old boy when that was 8 feet deep out of the water. I was
in my back yard and I heard a little boy scream and if his brother hadn't been there with
him I guess they were looking for frogs in this ditch of water he would have been gone. I
ended up tearing my clothes running through barbed wire and getting there and pulling a
little drowning boy out and having to resuscitate him and hose him off and take him home
to his parents. That is what got us going on this thing, we've had troubles ever since. It
is not fenced by any means, on my side I have small children but they know never across
barbed wire because they are worried about horses and everything. But the subdivisions
next to us have small children that just tend to migrate over there. On the opposite side
there is a blind man living there and his grandparents and family have put up fencing that
you can't imagine barbed wire trying to safety him off. But the ditch goes right up to the
fencing there is no, like you say the others have 5 feet we have nothing. He tried to put
some dirt up and it is just dirt clumps that the water goes through and it just pushed our
fences back. But any time you have water that is running it is going to go to the low spot
and this water runs north south on the irrigation ditch that is supposed to be there. The
property runs east west, the run off in there just as it starts flooding down toward the east
of my land just because that is the low spot siphons into it. There is a great deal of
problem every time we run the water both of us are out there plugging gopher holes and
they are laughing if we take care of the gophers. We have called the gopher extermination
and they have been coming out every 2 weeks working to try and solve that problem. It
is just an open ditch of sloped dirt and there is just no way to prevent the water from going
in there. It is less than 5 feet from the neighbors basement. So when that fills with water
his basement fills with water. I have no problem with the original plat that called for
fencing, it called for drainage tiles that were supposed to be in there, it called for a depth
no greater than 3 feet. They came in and changed to the 8 feet to 4 feet and something
but it is still there. When the water came it started to fill and when I left tonight it was filled
again to the top. We sent in last spring pictures of the water filled to the top and it is just
eroding the land away on either side. Eventually some horse is going to walk along there
and take half the slope with it.
Kingsford: About 10 times a year I hear from the City Clerk of Burley about that pond.
Moxley: Yes, that is his grandson that is blind that is there that he doesn't want to find in
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 27
the ditch either.
Kingsford: Well, what is our remedy counselor? Can we force them to fill that up, that is
going to be a problem now with it full of water. Is there waste dirt around it that can be just
pushed in?
Moxely: What he did was he had to have dirt to finish off his beautiful berms over at
Cougar Creek and so he hasn't added any water since March 16 when he came in and did
the sides again. Instead of making it a square hole like this he did push dirt in with a back
hoe to slope the sides a little bit which now would make it even harder if I pull somebody
to to get out because the slopes would just pull away from you as I try to get up. Where
before there was a ledge and I could pull myself up with the little boy in tow.
Morrow: I got a call this afternoon from Kevin Howell who is the developer. Quite candidly
a lot of what he is telling me and I have never met him before, but he has the same issue
or the same problem as Mr. Turnbull before us from the stand point that he is telling me
that he had thought through his sub -contracting and contractors that there were certain
things that were taken care of here and obviously they were not. Now then where that
puts us based on the testimony and based on Shari's presentation is we have something
that is obviously life threatening in the same breath Mr. Howell is not here to make a
presentation but I think that we need to be talking to him and have a sense of fair play to
Mr. Turnbull. The same conditions that apply to Mr. Turnbull apply to Mr. Howell. The
issue with respect to my conversation this afternoon would indicate that Mr. Howell is
probably not aware that there is a blind person immediately adjacent to this thing.
Probably indicates that he is not aware that one child at some point in time last year was
in trouble there.
Kingsford: I think he was, I think he was aware of a near blind person being adjacent.
Morrow: He didn't indicate that to me. I think the issue here is based on that information
the same thing applies to him that applies to Mr. Turnbull as I see it. I don't know whether
that means you pump the water out, is there a place to pump it to?
Moxley: They can pump it back on my land.
Morrow: The other side of the coin Carol is in terms of part of irrigating I know it is really
tough but my very first lesson with irrigating is getting my water on the next door neighbors
place and boy did I take a scolding and never forgot it. I spent a lot of money and time
digging waste ditches and those kinds of things so that the water never left my property.
Moxley: We did that, we did it extensively but because of the gopher holes and the erosion
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 28
we can't stop it. You can come out and see all of our new ditches.
Morrow: I have some neat gopher traps that work really good. I have not had a lot of
success with the gopher pest control people. What I have had success with is traps and
stuff myself and that is how I have had to solve the problem personally. I don't know, the
issue here as I see is the immediate problem is to get rid of the water. Obviously you can't
back fill something that is full of water. You can't drain it or anything else, so I think that
is where Mr. Howell needs to start. Because, we can de -annex him and hang him by his
heels but the problem is we are not going to get rid of the water Shari. So I think the
immediate step is to get rid of the stuff which is a safety hazard. Then pursue the other
things.
Kingsford: Well, still Shari's point is well taken that he has ignored what we have said.
Morrow: I understand that and I don't disagree with that. But I think in the order of steps
is one you get rid of the hazard and then 2 you deal with the other administrative issues.
Kingsford: So I guess in your motion what you need to do is to declare some sort of a
penalty.
Morrow: You mean structure the motion somewhere along the lines that he has 48 hours
to to get rid of the water at which time if it is not accomplished water route dirty and de -
annexation
Kingsford: I think you need to have over his head one the termination of the plat and 2 the
possibility of de -annexation. Which is not an easy thing to do but do it, Counselor?
Crookston: Since Mr. Howell is not here I think that we do have some notice problems.
Before we make that kind of
Kingsford: Have the City Clerk then send a letter via the police department then serving.
(End of Tape)
Morrow: Well, okay, with respect, as I see this issue with respect to notification is that
don't have a problem with the notification in terms of fill ups and stuff like that, but I have
a problem with notification in terms of solving the immediate issue which is the water
depth. Quite candidly my experience has been that you can't get into too much trouble
trying to do the right thing, I'd rather get in trouble here trying to do the right thing with the
good counselor and his folk and get the thing pumped than delay because of lack of notice
of lack of representation on the part of the Mr. Howell.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 29
Kingsford: Still what I think I am hearing is you pump that water out if you have gophers
it runs right back in. I think you can fill in a pond, it is a hole in the ground you can fill it
in, whether there is water in it or not. It is a problem with compaction we are not talking
about building a house over it.
Morrow: No, and I am not concerned about the compaction, this issue is that in the first
place in the location you have to be able to get to it with equipment to get it filled in.
(Inaudible)
Morrow: I see it as an issue of getting rid of the water immediately. I am not concerned
about the de -annexation and the termination of the plat. I think that comes with proper
notice to satisfy the
Kingsford: Let's hear a motion that you are satisfied with then.
Corrie: We have to get rid of the water and fill it up with dirt (inaudible) is that what I am
hearing from her.
Morrow: I have real mixed emotions about this, part of the water problem going in there
is these run off water from properties adjacent to it. Under normal circumstances and
under our ordinance with respect to irrigation people using irrigation within the City of
Meridian are responsible to A) clean their ditches, B) keep them free of rodents such as
gophers, and so that is an issue also that is certainly not of Mr. Howell's causing.
Yerrington: What is the size of this pond roughly?
Moxely: (Inaudible)
Corrie: If we take the water out and fill it up or level it off what happens to the water, its
sucking all this water from someplace, where is that water going to now?
Moxley: The water is going to go instead of down into his hole down my sloping
(inaudible) or else it would go across it (inaudible).
Morrow: Well, I don't know that it does Bob, maybe it floods the rest of the places around
there. Because if memory serves me correctly at that particular point where this thing is
the street is elevated above, you fill in the pond I don't know that it can get to Ustick and
Locust Grove which looks like the low point. Your question is great where does it go, I
don't know.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 30
Corrie: Can you help us Gary? Where would that water go?
Smith: Where would the water go that drains into the pit?
Corrie: Flight, if we take the water out and eliminate that pit what happens to the water?
Smith: Well, the pit, retention area was designed to contain run off water from the street
system in Chamberlain Subdivision. I don't recall the exact details of the retention area
but it is a retention not detention. Any excess water that comes off the street drainage
system would be retained in that pond and would, I would assume, filter down into the sub-
soils, gravel and drain away. If you have water running into the pond from properties
adjacent to it then you are going to have water in the pond I guess when irrigation water
is present on the ground adjacent to it. The water does drain out of the pond as it comes
in, I don't know how long it takes. Doesn't it drain out Carol?
Moxely: When it is summer time and the water is coming every 10 days there is
continuous water.
Smith: It is continuously full of water. One of the major issues that we tried to address with
this whole thing since the beginning which goes back to the middle of last year when we
first started having correspondence with Mr. Howell about this pit was the water issue.
And one of the things that I was told by the developers engineer was that when they filled
this ditch up or the pit up to approximately what it is design elevation on the problem and
the side slopes that they were taking care of the problem of water entering the excavation
from the sides from the adjacent property. Obviously that hasn't happened. Whether it
is a gopher hole or this so called berm that they built along the top of the pit is not
containing the water. But the irrigation water is coming into the excavation. I don't think
it is deep enough to collect ground water from below, if the adjacent water was contained
I don't believe it would have water in the pit. It should not have water in the pit. Maybe
part of this and I don't know what the answer is they shouldn't, the adjacent property
owners shouldn't be subjected to side ditches that would pick up water coming off their
property. I don't know that is a problem for them but obviously the water has in the past
come across the property just like it is now. Only now it has an excavation to drain into.
When Jim Merkle told me that the pit had been filled to design grades I said well please
take come cross sections on it for me and submit those to me so that I can verify that is the
case, which he did. It was within a foot of being to the design grade in the cross sections
that he took the length of the excavation.
Morrow: Let me ask you this Gary, if this subdivision is totally built out and that pond
system is there is this problem still there? How do you solve the problem long term then?
We have approved all the plans and specs based on the design stuff, are you telling me
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 31
the design doesn't work.
Smith: Right, the only way to resolve, I shouldn't say the only way, but to address the issue
of water entering the pit would be to intercept it from the side and direct it to the west to
Locust Grove into a ditch that would flow to the north and dump into the South Slough
which is where the side ditch drainage goes now on Locust Grove. I guess that would be
an alternative to solve the problem but that surface water has to be restricted from entering
the pit or the excavation in order for the excavation to stay dry whether it is gopher holes
or whatever. As far as who takes care of the gophers I don't know, I haven't been involved
in the gopher issue so I can't say whose responsibility that is.
Kingsford: They can get all the gophers on their property and all those around that pond
would be right back. They don't understand boundaries they don't stay home.
Moxley: We took Nampa Meridian's suggestions for containing the water and our
responsibility and had the ditches dug and built up on our side the dirt and it is not helping
at all, but we did go to them and tried to solve the problem ourself first.
Morrow: So are you saying Gary that there is nothing in the original design that alludes to
bypass ditches to solve the problem of getting the water out of there?
Smith: Not that I recall, not from the adjacent properties no.
Kingsford: Did I hear you say that Merkle had said that thing was within a foot of the
design standard that was approved?
Smith: Yes, the elevations that he submitted to me before April 15th deadline showed that
it was within a foot of the design grade, the bottom was within a foot of the design grade.
I don't know what it had been but you and I could stand in there and you can see out.
Kingsford: Have you done a physical check to bear out.
Moxley: The kids drive their pick ups in there and all we can see is the running board light
on the top and they are throwing beer bottles and they have found a new party area and
they are having a pretty good time.
Morrow: Within the one foot is that, was this designed to be grassed in the bottom?
Within the one foot is that their rough cut and then you top soil it and grass it as a retention
pond?
Smith: I don't recall what kind of surface treatment they proposed to it Walt, its been long
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 32
enough since I looked at I don't remember. The thing, I guess the disturbing part of all of
this is that the developer took the dirt out of that subdivision, both the streets and this pit
area were excavated. The soil material was transported to the other development to build
out berms or whatever he did with it, raise the elevation of the lots, I don't know how he
utilized it. That is where all the dirt went. Now, if the approval for the preliminary plat
becomes null and void what do we have?
Kingsford: A hole in the ground.
Smith: Right, we have a hole in the ground and we have a bunch of streets that are dug
out. I assume that Howell is still the property owner but I don't know where we are in terms
of requiring him to remedy the excavation that he has done particularly this pit area.
Because of its continuing safety problem to the adjoining property owners. And other
children that are beginning, well that are in homes that are being built and occupied in
adjoining subdivisions because it is like Carol said they find these places to play. If they
have to cross Locust Grove to get to it they will easily.
Morrow: Well, I think from our position right now if it is within a foot of its design grade
obviously when it is at design grade which I think you are telling me is still not a major
problem in terms of depth.
Smith: The water is still going to be there if it is not somehow intercepted on top side. I
don't believe it is ground water that will cause the problem, I think it is surface water that
enters the excavation. I don't know how it would be intercepted unless there were some
sub -surface pipes installed that would intercept it and take it away I don't know.
Corrie: Whose responsibility would it be to do that then, ours or theirs?
Smith: This was designed as a storm drainage retention pond not an irrigation water
retention pond and that is what it has turned into.
Kingsford: It was designed to be open all this time, and was that approved by anyone?
Smith: The Highway District approved it.
Kingsford: We have had no approvals on it?
Smith: It is part of the, it is shown on the plat as a retention area for storm drainage, it is
shown in the development plans.
Kingsford: Usually when we see storm drainage we are talking about a site that is maybe
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 33
graveled that will retain some water not a lake.
Smith: The street plans submitted to the Highway District and approved by them and this
is part of the street plan or part of the street development plan, the retention pond. ACHD
has written letter, Mr. Bringegar has been corresponding with them and they have written
letters back to him which I have copies in my file telling him that the problem would be
resolved. The County Commissioners have called.
Kingsford: How does this fit in with the approvals of Chamberlain and this request for
extension and that sort of thing?
Smith: It was a condition of the Council when you extended the approval that this be taken
care of by April 15th of 1995.
Morrow: And did bringing it up within a foot of grade constitute taking the necessary
corrective action?
(Inaudible)
Smith: I don't know about the fencing but from my standpoint and I wrote a memo to you
folks that they had brought it up to that depth or that elevation and it was a rough grade
in their attempt to satisfy the conditions that you had placed on the request for extension.
I had required the engineer go out and run some cross (inaudible) and verify to me that the
elevations of the pond were within limits of being where they were supposed to be. I did
not expect that the pond would be brought to finished grade at this time because it is not
a finished grade project right now. None of that subdivision is, everything is rough graded
excavated. It would be finished when the street system was installed.
Morrow: That was as per your letter on April 13, 1995 is that correct?
Smith: Correct, but the surface water entering the pit had always been one of the
problems and that was one thing that I discussed with Jim Merkle was the surface water
needs to be restricted from entering that pit area. His answer to that was the berm, there
was a berm constructed across the top of the excavation. Which doesn't seem to be of
any value to the problem.
Morrow: Well, also at the time and I have to throw this out that at the time the thing was
a small berm along the top edge to help prevent surface water from entering the pond at
that point in time as of the date of this letter there hadn't been any irrigation water out
there to even test to find out if it was going to work.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 34
Smith: That is right. Perhaps one of the things that needs to be addressed by the
engineer for the project is what can be done to restrict the surface water from entering this
thing. If you can't keep the surface water out of it than it is no longer a storm drainage
retention pond and that is the reason that it was designed and built is a storm drainage
retention pond. It is not an irrigation retention pond it becomes a public hazard if that is
what it is going to be. So whether the plans have been approved by the Highway District
or not it is a problem that needs to be addressed by the design engineer and it needs to
be taken care of to keep that water out of that pit. Or the pit is filled in.
Kingsford: And also the fencing, I think is critical. But even, I can't imagine the Highway
District approving something like that. The mosquito problem if nothing else is going to
be horrendous.
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council the last conversation I had with Ada County Highway
District was they weren't too concerned about it because it was the homeowners
responsibility. They aren't taking any responsibility for it.
Kingsford: Well, bless them.
Morrow: Mr. Mayor, in Fuller Park the retention pond for Parkside Creek at the west end
of Fuller Park is not to dissimilar in size to this retention pond in terms of dimensions. It
is not as long but it is certainly a little bit wider the issue there is that ultimately the bottom
get grassed and that is the way it is and that is the design data for Parkside Creek
Subdivision.
Kingsford: Is that the one on the Western Ada Recreation property?
Morrow: That is correct
Kingsford: That is part of, the park system is a little different than having to be part of a
subdivision area.
Morrow: Well, the point that I was answering your question was in terms of size. You
were requesting the size it was over there I don't know what data they used to get to 50
by 390 but what 1 am suggesting to you is the one for Parkside Creek over by Fuller Park
is not too dissimilar in square footage to this one.
Kingsford: It is almost a water ski lake.
Morrow: Very close, you could do some bank skiing with a Volkswagen and a single. So
I guess the question here is where does the responsibility for the irrigation water ultimately
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 35
lie, if your property and you are not using your irrigation water, that irrigation water comes
from adjoining properties is it the responsibility of you to cure the problem is what I am
asking Gary?
Smith: If the water is coming from your property are you responsible for that water?
Morrow: If the property is coming for the adjoining properties, obviously this subdivision
is not irrigating. The water that is filling this pond is coming from neighboring properties.
And so the issue is or the question is from me to you is whose responsibility is it to keep
the water out of the pond?
Kingsford: Let's think Walt legally that pond has caused a problem with water going
across property which is a violation of state code. Am I wrong Counselor?
Crookston: No
Morrow: But it would go across in ditch or pipe it wouldn't flood all the way across one
person's parcel to another person's parcel and then continue on in terms of corrugates and
those kinds of things to irrigate.
Kingsford: If it weren't' for that pond it would go into a waste ditch that I believe I heard
you indicate you have that would go further then into a drain ditch which has been the
disposition of that water historically. Now that the hole is there it has interrupted that
historic flow. Logically somebody down stream under the rejudication program probably
has rights to that waste water that is being retained at the pond.
Morrow: If somebody has filed on it that is absolutely correct they would have.
Kingsford: So it goes back to what Gary said a minute it isn't the water retention it is
water collection pond or an irrigation collection pond which violates state code.
Morrow: Did you go to the University of Idaho also for a time being?
Kingsford: I think 1 have been around them too much.
Corrie: It sounds to me like they (inaudible) the thing is what can we do to make them do
that? Do we say don't do anything until you do that now and get it done?
Kingsford: I think what we do is go back to where we were and we put them on notice that
their remedy that they promised us by April 15th is not satisfactory.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 36
Corrie: So therefore we will do what?
Kingsford: I think then it isn't our problem it is a violation of state code, I don't know
whether we deal with it, whether the property owners have to deal with it or what. I don't
think we are going to approve anything related to that until that is remedied.
Morrow: Well now wait a minute, the thing of it is where we are ended up here is with a
Spanish stand off. Because the deal is here is to get the water out of the pond and get rid
of the hazard.
Kingsford: But the developer has no interest in doing because that is his collection system
which we are saying doesn't work.
Morrow: This is a no win deal. I can see both sides of the issue. If we are going to get
rid of the water we have to make some sort of motion that gets rid of the water in some sort
of time frame with a consequence that happens if it is not done.
Kingsford: And I think our consequences are A) that if they don't see some immediate
action that we do away with the extension of the plat and B) if that is not followed up in a
certain time that de -annexation proceedings go. And that is the only handle that 1 think we
have. We didn't approve the pond in the first place that is the Highway District.
Morrow: Alright Mr. Mayor 1 would move that we notify the developer Mr. Howell that he
has the same 48 hours to proceed action to solve or remedy the problem of the life
threatening water depth in the pond issue and if progress is not made within that 48 hour
period than we as a City do not extend approval of the preliminary plat and we begin de -
annexation process within 30 days.
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt second by Bob to notify the developer Mr. Kevin Howell that he
has 48 hours, he is put on notice that he has 48 hours to begin remedying the life
threatening depth of the pond, if that is not done the continuation of the plat will be
discontinued and he will have 30 days until we start de -annexation proceedings, correct?
Morrow: Correct.
Kingsford: Now with regard to notification, 48 hours from notification, you are going to
have Will submit that letter by police courier? What is your intent?
Morrow: That would be my pleasure, the notification in terms of the 48 hours would start
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 37
immediately.
Kingsford: We can't have it start until they have it.
Morrow: I understand that, but we start delivering the notification immediately. And if that
is by police courier than so be it. We satisfy Wayne's problems with respect to notification
for de -annexation and fair hearings within the 30 day period.
Kingsford: Counselor?
Crookston: Can we change the motion to reflect that to give Mr. Howell the authorized
legal notice?
Morrow: Yes
Kingsford: Which is certified mailing?
Crookston: 1 mean the time requirements. I am not sure but I would imagine it is at least
5 days.
Kingsford: Well you didn't say that before with Mr. Turnbull out here.
Crookston: Mr. Turnbull was here.
Morrow: So you are saying the 48 hour thing becomes 5 days even if it is done by police
courier?
Crookston: It doesn't matter how he receives it, it is so much time after he receives it.
Kingsford: And you are saying that notice stipulates the 5 days.
Stiles: My only comment is rather than the life threatening depth, can't there be something
about to quit taking the water from adjacent flood irrigation, that is one of the main
problems. I mean life threatening what is that?
Morrow: Life threatening is immediate, my intent here is sure you can (inaudible) waste
ditch maybe and solve the problem with water going into it but the water is not going to
evaporate past the 4 foot depth level at the current temperatures for 3 or 4 weeks. So you
really haven't gotten rid of the immediate threat in my opinion.
Stiles: But if no one could get out of it even it was half a foot deep what difference does
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 38
it make? If somebody is in there and can't get out.
Morrow: It has tapered ends. If you could drive a pick up in it you can walk out of it.
Kingsford: I don't think you can drive a pick up in in all the way around.
Stiles: That is not going to do anything about the gopher holes which is making the water
go directly in there at a very rapid rate.
Morrow: Well quite candidly if we are going to get that involved with it I can see some real
legal issues and keep the thing tied up for umpteen weeks and months. My intent here is
to get the thing moving and get is solved. I think you have a real issue as an irrigator if I
have somebody's water going across my place due to gopher holes I mean there are some
instant clashes right away. I can see where that is fertile ground for the legal folks in the
judicial system and doesn't get our problem solved. What I am after here is if it takes 5
days that seems like unreasonable notice to me but if we have to do that I guess we have
to do it.
Kingsford: Amend the motion to 5 days?
Morrow: I would appreciate the motion to state that do it allow the notice that is required
by law, it may be 5 days, it may be 3, it may be 10.
Corrie: In other words you want it legal?
Crookston: Right
Morrow: That doesn't make it right.
Crookston: I am not here to argue that but I am not a legislator.
Morrow: Mr. Mayor I would amend my motion to delete 48 hours notice and replace that
with the legal notice requirements.
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Okay, the aforementioned motion has been amended to delete the 48 hour
requirement and to include then the legal requirement, whatever that may be, by Walt and
second by Bob, all those in favor? Opposed?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 39
Kingsford: Who is going to write that notice Counselor?
Morrow: He is now.
Crookston: Do we have an address for Mr. Howell?
Kingsford: I am sure we do. Mr. Smith?
Smith: Nothing
Kingsford: Chief?
Gordon: Nothing
Kingsford: Counselor?
Crookston: Nothing
Kingsford: Walter?
Morrow: Yes, a couple of things. I think it is appropriate, it is my understanding that Mr.
T. is at a funeral of a relative I think it is appropriate the City send him a sympathy card as
with Mr. Corrie. The second issue is that in my conversations with Mr. Alidjani I am
convinced that it is in the City's and the taxpayer's best interest to start whatever
proceedings are necessary to force either condemnation or some securing of the old
school building and that we proceed with notice in the legal requirements of notifying both
Mr. Alidjani and Mrs. Alidjani. My position prior this was that we ought to wait until they
resolve their differences and I am convinced that those differences are going be resolved
any time soon. I think the threat to the City and the surrounding neighbors and we ought
to press forward. I bring that to the table for discussion by you and the rest of the Council.
Kingsford: I would certainly agree with you and entertain that for a motion that we have the
attorney press forward with whatever we can do in the way of condemnation or securing
that.
Morrow: Any comments?
Crookston: Well, when you are talking about condemnation you are talking about
condemning it are you not as a safety hazard?
Morrow: Yes
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 40
Kingsford: Which is what I think the neighbors are saying it is a health hazard a safety
hazard, fire hazard.
Morrow: Okay, I will so move that we instruct the City Attorney to notify Mr. and Mrs.
Alidjani individually that the City is going to press forward with condemnation processes
as quickly as legally possible.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Max to notify the Alidjani's separately the City's
intent to press forward with condemnation of the old school building on Carlton as quickly
as possible under the legal provisions, all those in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: Will, will you see to the sympathy card for us please?
Morrow: The last item is that we are dealing with the personnel manual issue tonight in
terms of the latest revisions. We were given a copy and it is my understanding from our
strategic planning session that we were going to review that copy at tonight's meeting. I
have some items that I wish to review concerning that. On page 7, under item 5, to read
the item it says, "Use work time for personal business including selling of goods or
services to the general public or proselytizing religious or political views to members of the
public during the work day. Employees should minimize the amount of work time spent
on similar activities engaged in with fellow employees." I don't see that ought to happen.
Kingsford: What item are you on there?
Morrow: I am on item #5, page 7.
Corrie: You want that eliminated completely?
Morrow: I don't think they should even be doing it is my point. Because what is minimum
amount of time to you and I, maybe 5 minutes to somebody else it might be an hour.
Kingsford: So strike minimize and put eliminate?
Morrow: Yes, that is a common sense deal. What we are saying here is that is not to
employees.
Kingsford: Minimize doesn't give you any kind of negotiating room, how about eliminate?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 41
Morrow: Okay, on page 8, we are talking about, let's see my notes, violations of rules or
reasons for dismissal. I had a thought here no place in this document did I find anything
that alluded to if an employee is convicted of a felony of some sort. I didn't see anything
in this document that said anything with respect to frauds and those kinds of issues. My
question was is that should we include something that says something about that. 1 don't
know, not being familiar with these things.
Kingsford: I think if a person is convicted of a felony you are talking about during the time
that they are working for us?
Morrow: Yes
Kingsford: Of course beforehand they have to notify us of that if they violate, if they are
not honest on that application that is grounds for dismissal. But if at the time 1 think
automatically you have recourse there don't you counselor?
Crookston: Not necessarily.
Kingsford: I think Walt is saying you have to be convicted, accused you certainly can't
take any rights away. If a person is convicted during the time of their employment it is
grounds for termination surely under state code.
Crookston: I would have to look at that, I think you are right.
Kingsford: 1 don't think it would hurt to put a number 17 in, or include in that last paragraph
that. Probably just put that in just prior to the rules contained in this personnel policy, put
employees convicted of or 17.
Morrow: On page 10,
Kingsford: So we will put that as a number 17?
Morrow: On page 10, the last paragraph at the bottom, where it is talking about
compensation polices and establishing a pay system, it says," Employees may participate
in a performance evaluation system established by the Mayor and City Council," I wish
that to read "Employees shall participate in performance evaluation system established by
the Mayor and City Council or by an individual department with the approval of the chief
executive. Such evaluation systems shall be the basis for allocating changes in
compensation in each budget year. When such an evaluation system be established
records of any such evaluations shall be kept in the personnel file of each employee." My
reasoning there is that employees and supervisors need to be evaluated and those
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 42
evaluations based on job descriptions and job performance ought to be what wages and
increases are tied to. I don't think it ought to be optional on the part of the of the City to
institute that, 1 think we should say when we start that then everybody falls under it. On
that same page under exempt employees according to my notes from our preliminary deal
we were going to find what an exempt employee is, b says, "Exempt employees not subject
to merit testing or other selection criteria provided by this manual."
Kingsford: Mr. Berg if you would asterisk that you have some notes on that from the
previous meeting.
Morrow: On page 13, as I read through the obligation of the Treasurer to make the
paychecks and do those things I didn't see any alluding to the fact that we won't allow any
draws or is it the intent of the Council to allow draws outside of the normal monthly pay
day. It seems to me like if we are not to allow draws it makes to have a very simple
statement that says there will be no draws if that is the intent of the City or the Council and
the Mayor.
Corrie: What does the code say?
Morrow: I am asking the question I don't know Bob.
Kingsford: I think during my 10 years here Wait, we've had no more than 3 requests even
for that. I don't know that it necessarily constitutes a problem. If it is the Council's desire
to have that in there I wouldn't oppose it but I don't see it constituting a problem.
Morrow: My thought was that if it was there than the question never gets asked and we
don't have to deal with it. As we begin to accumulate more employees that would be a
more difficult issue to deal with.
Kingsford: Well, it wouldn't hurt to have it in even if that code does speak to it.
Morrow: I have a question here and I think that on item 11, it says, "Leave will be granted
to full-time employees called to jury duty or to serve as a court witness in accordance with
City Council -adopted policy. Full pay will be provided during actual service. Fees
received by an employee shall be remitted to the City if the amount is less than the
employees' wages." The question I ask myself is that means the money that I receive as
a witness (inaudible) I get to keep both.
Kingsford: So it ought to read fees received by an employee shall be remitted to the City.
Corrie: We were saying that they had the choice of one or the other.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 43
Kingsford: Yes, fees received by an employee and then maybe put in except travel
reimbursement or excluding travel reimbursement should be remitted to the City.
Morrow: Should or shall?
Kingsford: Shall
Morrow: On page 14, under vacation leave, I still have a problem with the over 15 years
of 20 days and let me explain what that problem is. In many cases that would be people
that might be department heads or secondary level heads from my perspective in the basis
of what 1 do for a living I have to use governmental services extensively and there is
nothing more frustrating (End of Tape) to go to a department that has required something
of me in the private sector fully ready to comply only to be told that Mr. Smith is on
vacation we can't service you for 2 weeks. I have a philosophical problem with a
governmental entity setting up requirements for us in the private sector to accomplish
something and then not have the means by which we can accomplish that. It seems to me
that either we don't go to 20 days we go with some lesser period or if we are going to do
that we develop some sort of policy that empowers more than one person in a department
to approve something so that it doesn't hold up the citizens by which we are trying serve.
1 find this, as the only person in this room with exception of Mr. Turnbull, who has to deal
with governmental folk on a daily basis to be an incredibly frustrating problem at all levels
of government. And so
Kingsford: I think Walt here we've never necessarily had that problem. Whoever is a
department head that leaves empowers somebody to deal with those things. If they don't
I deal with it.
Morrow: Let me give you a good example
Kingsford: But still your point I don't think is necessarily valid here. You have people that
are going to be gone for 3 weeks regardless of that plus 15 thing. All you are doing is its
gets possibly one week more during a year. I don't think you can use that as the criteria
for it.
Morrow: Well, 1 am using it as a point to say that I still have a real problem with 4 weeks
of vacation for a person to be gone and we are paying them to really work. To give you
a case in point is with ACRD I need some information with respect to a certain thing we
are doing. I can't get the information because the right of way guy is on vacation for 2
weeks. I can't make the submittal to Garden City because it is past the 20th so the whole
thing ends up getting delayed 6 weeks to 2 months for the sake of one individual being on
extended vacation. And so maybe the deal is if we are going to have, what I am asking
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 44
is, if we are going to have 4 weeks vacation we have some sort of policy statement that
precludes it from being taken all at once. Or maybe we do it for department heads only
or something. Somehow I see that as a problem based on ongoing problems that I have
today and it seems to me like there is someway that we need deal with that.
Corrie: I think we can deal with it in individual departments. I think we are, and all due
respect Walt, I don't believe your reasoning is valid. Each department has their own
people and if they take 4 weeks so be it. Somebody is going to take their place, have we
had that problem at all Mr. Mayor, has that been a problem?
Kingsford: Certainly it is tough for the City to deal with some of those key people being
gone but I don't think there has ever been a lack of a decision made because of a person
being gone.
Corrie: I can understand where Walt is coming from I just don't think we need to try and
fix something that is not broke in this case.
Morrow: I am telling you Bob from the private sector standpoint it is broke.
Corrie: I just don't think that we should splitting hairs here about the public when it can be
taken care of and a department head can do it, it hasn't been a problem. I am not going
to vote to change it.
Kingsford: One thing that I guess I still have a problem with and Max mentioned to me in
my recollection I didn't go back and look at my notes at that again but was with regard to
the 15 years. I was thinking we had put that at 20 years.
Morrow: That was my next question.
Kingsford: And in our discussion my recollection was that 20 years and above was 4
weeks.
Morrow: Okay, that was my next question and then my last question with regard to this
particular paragraph and my note says explain. It says the vacation leave can only accrue
to a 20 day maximum, any excess over 20 days not used during the which it accrues will
be forfeited, without right of compensation at the conclusion of the fiscal year in which it
became excess. This rule may be subject to an exception for one year's additional accrual
upon written permission of the responsible elected official and from the Mayor and City
Council. Vacation leave is to be scheduled with the consent of the responsibly elected
official or department supervisor. Efforts will be made to accommodate the preference of
the employee in vacation scheduling, but first priority will be the orderly functioning of
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 45
affected departments. That seems awfully bulky to me and I am not quite sure that I
understand what it is saying. I think what it says is that you can accumulate 20 days of
vacation, anything you have coming over that you forfeit at the fiscal year anniversary each
year. And then this rule may be subject to an exception for one year's additional accrual
upon written permission of responsible elected officials. What is the line of reasoning
behind that. Is that saying that somebody
Kingsford: I think the line of reasoning might very well be Walt that we get up against the
gun and year end of the fiscal year and for some reason not everybody had been able to
take their vacation. I don't think the Council's desire would be to take that away from them
because they couldn't get it. I think that violates what you are discussing about having
somebody here to mind the ship.
Morrow: And one of the interpretations I had, my first interpretation was that means a
person could have 40 days with written permission and that is not the intent.
Kingsford: Well, seemingly a 20 year person could have 40 days if they got that from the
Commissioner, Mayor and Council to approve that. I think you can put some stipulations
on that before it would be approved. But I think the whole intent of that is to allow a
person that hasn't gotten that vacation taken before the first of October or their anniversary
date whatever it might be.
Morrow: Is there maybe a better way that we could word that to make it a little better I
guess. Maybe it was just confusing to me, I am throwing this out as a point of discussion.
Kingsford: Well maybe it is may we need to take another run at it.
Morrow: On page
Smith: Can I interrupt, there was one item on that first length of service, 1 to 3 years for
5 days. Our present policy says 1 to 2 years is 5 days and then the next line would be 3
through 9 years instead of 4 through 9 years to correspond to our existing personnel
policy.
Morrow: So it is 1 to 2 and then 3 to 9?
Smith: Yes 1 through 2 and then 3 through 9.
Morrow: I don't have a problem with that.
Smith: That would, without restricting new employees, thank you.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 46
Morrow: Okay, on page 15, at the very top of the very first paragraph, it says, "A "sick
leave pool" policy will be similar to that of the Meridian School District," that is in
parentheses, my comment was what if it changes at the Meridian School District? Does
it make sense to have that sentence in there. And then to go on it says, "Employees must
join the pool and contribute a minimum of one day to be eligible. Participation in the pool
will be voluntary. Before drawing from the pool and employee must use all available sick
leave, all available vacation leave and be docked 3 days with no pay. The sick leave pool
will be administered by a committee of employees. The committee may ask employees to
donate to the pool when it runs low." A couple of thoughts I had, when we were doing our
work session I thought that the committee was going to be composed of department
heads.
Kingsford: I think that was a discussion I don't know whether necessarily that would be
a must. That is open for discussion, I don't necessarily see that one being a requirement
of department heads.
Morrow: Well I guess as a management tool, my thoughts there would be is that I can
envision a situation at some point in the future where you had enough employees that the
system runs amuck because they have a different philosophy than management has. I
think that part of what we are doing with this document is trying to project or set policy into
the future. And although it may not be a problem today that doesn't mean that a year from
today or 2 years from today that it is not a problem. And so that was one thing that I was
concerned about.
Kingsford: Let's deal with that first, I think you ought to just put a sick leave pool may be
established and then strike the rest of that sentence.
Morrow: So it is a sick leave pool may be established.
Kingsford: I guess Walt with regard to your second comment I would still rather not see
that be department heads. Let the employees deal with the sick leave pool if it is for a
department head and maybe we would want to set it up maybe have a department head
maybe have a group of employees whatever.
Morrow: Well, let me throw this out to you then, by virtue of having it written this way does
that mean that a 7 month employee can be a decision maker in terms of this pool?
Kingsford: I don't see the likelihood of, if we let the employees select their committee I
don't see a 7 month employee being one of those people that would be on the leadership,
but if they are so be it.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 47
Yerrington: (Inaudible)
Morrow: The way this is written the employees would administer the whole thing.
Kingsford: I think that they could set up whoever their sick leave committee is. I don't think
any of us ought to be on there we don't have any sick days to grant.
Morrow: No, I don't think that any elected officials ought to be there but I think there ought
to be some it seems to me like there ought to be some criteria set by who serves there and
there out to be some management control over this group in terms of is there an appeal
process.
Kingsford: I think automatically you have an appeal process to the Council on everything
through State code don't you Wayne? Everything that I am aware of you can contest to
the elected body.
Crookston: There are some where you do not.
Corrie: Actually this is an employee benefit for employees it doesn't have anything to do
with supervisors or Council.
Kingsford: Well, the supervisors are employees it certainly has nothing to do with us other
than establishing it.
Corrie: If the employees have the pool let the employees run it rather than the Council be
involved.
Kingsford: I think from a policy statement we ought to designate what size of it is and that
it can't be from all one department or there needs to be a representative from each
department or something.
Morrow: Well, that is one of the things that I am driving at here. The other thing is another
thought that I had there, it says one day per year, we don't allude to a total cap in that we
may want in terms of a total number of days for this pool size to be. Do we want it
assuming that let's for example say that we have 70 employees now, in five years that
could be 350 days if each employee participates one day a year. My next question is is
just one day a fair contribution by an employee into a pool to be eligible to join when
everybody else may have 5 days into the pool. It just seemed to me that there were some
open ended questions that needed to be asked with regards to how that pool was being
designed and that it was left out. Some of those things weren't addressed here.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 48
Kingsford: Well, everybody is buying in at one day at the start and the new person ought
to be able to buy in for one day.
Morrow: I know but the way this is written is that is the last day he has to buy and he
becomes fully vested if he only contributes one day and everybody else contributes five.
Kingsford: Yes but those people who have contributed five that group will have already
spent theirs before they ante up more.
Morrow: No, 1 am not making my point very well. It says Employees must join the pool and
contribute a minimum of one day to be eligible. And that means for the person that doesn't
want to participate other than to contribute the one day he gets the benefit of the entire
pool and never ever contributes more than one day. And maybe everybody else in that
is in there contributes more than that. I understand the committee may ask employees that
is the group to donate.
Crookston: I think the question really is do you have contributed your one day prior to any
illness.
Kingsford: Well, I think it clearly says that. If you haven't contributed your day when the
bank is set up you are not a member. Maybe we need to designate that there is only an
annual entry into it.
Corrie: Evidently the Meridian School District has run through this, why do we need to
reinvent the wheel. Why don't we find out what they are doing and look at and then
(inaudible) and then that will make it a lot easier.
Kingsford: 1 will grab mine.
Corrie: I don't want to say that we are going to follow that. The questions that Walt is
raising are very good and legitimate questions but I don't think we need to spend all night.
Morrow: I am not asking to re -invent the wheel I just don't' know what the answers to the
questions are. And those are thoughts that occurred to me as I read this that it wasn't very
well done.
Kingsford: We need to clarify that.
Morrow: Then on page 18, interviews, and this is talking in terms of evaluation interviews.
The paragraph talks about the employees, I think I would like to see some sort of comment
added on that says exempt employees or department heads whatever you wish to call
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 49
them are to be evaluated by the City Councilman responsible for that department. It
seems to me that we made provision for the department heads to evaluate employees in
that paragraph but we have not made provision for the department heads to be evaluated.
Kingsford: A sentence at the end then that department heads and supervisors will be
evaluated by their respective commissioner and or Mayor.
Morrow: That is correct.
Corrie: There may come a time that we don't have commissioners.
Kingsford: Specifically I am thinking about they are currently responsible for the folks at
City Hall.
Morrow: On page 19, item 3, management of information in personnel files. It says,
"Disciplinary notices and records will be removed within 3 years from the date of any
occurrence calling for disciplinary action. Such purging of records may be done by the
supervisor, with the concurrence of the Mayor and City Council, annually without notifying
the employee." I guess that there is a conflict there as I see it between the two, one of
them says maybe done by a supervisor and then it says will be removed and maybe they
need to be the same, either disciplinary notices in records may be removed within 3 years
from the day of any occurrence calling for disciplinary action.
Corrie: What is the reasoning to have it removed in any reason?
Morrow: Well Bob I am not sure there is, part of it very well may be that you may want in
a personnel record something longer than 3 years to establish a track of, essentially if you
are purging your records on the 3 year anniversary date and at year 5 you need to
terminate an employee than you have gotten rid of half your book that (inaudible) to be
able to terminate.
Corrie: I think we are saying the same thing. I am saying why do we have to purge it at all?
Kingsford: I think what you need to do there is disciplinary notice in records may instead
shall or may instead of will be removed, may be removed if there is still a track going on
that termination then it wouldn't be.
Corrie: I guess my whole comment here Mr. Mayor is if it is a disciplinary record why is it
even considered being taken out?
Kingsford: Well I think it is appropriate many times. We have had employees that have
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 50
erred in their ways and I would hate to see and are good employees I would hate to see
that record exist past my stay here. I know that they are good employees when I leave I
wouldn't care for you guys or my successor to say this guy did such and such while old
Kingsford was here I don't think that is appropriate. Everybody makes mistakes.
Corrie: I understand that, I think I would ask the Council to tell us whether that could be
exsponged whether that is a good idea. If you could put it in the record that this was a
disciplinary action at the present time this action they have corrected it and it is not a
problem anymore. I guess that is must a management procedure to have to look at it.
Kingsford: It goes back to things like somebody may have come to work in the licensing
department were tardy to work five times in the first month and get a disciplinary action
there and never late again, is there any value in keeping that in there? Does that make
it just a possibility for termination on something to hang that over that persons head. I
don't think you need to keep that there if it doesn't serve any value. I think also under the
freedom of information act those kinds of things, you are able to clear credit for crying out
loud at a particular time and some of those sorts of things might not be able to clear your
personnel file. It is obsolete.
Morrow: I am thinking in terms of, I understand what you are saying, but what about cases
of sexual harassment issues or in the issue of and I am thinking particularly of the person
and not to be picking on anybody but the person that Ms. Fox hired and then as records
came to light later terminated because the information didn't flow freely and quite candidly
in that circumstance it should have.
Kingsford: Of course that was state to state.
Morrow: But my point being here is that from Mayor and Council to the next they ought to
be forewarned that there was an individual that at some point in time did have a problem
with sexual harassment or something like that.
Kingsford: Well, if you put in there may instead of will I would hope that some of the folks
that will make those decisions will exercise some pretty good discretion of what they may
purge.
Morrow: I guess the issue there is that such purging of records may be done by the
supervisor with the concurrence of the Mayor and the City Council. Well I really think i
would like to see that decision rest solely with the Mayor and the City Council or it has to
be validated by the Mayor and the City Council.
Kingsford: Well, I think that is what it says with the concurrence of the City Council and
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 51
Mayor have to concur with that before it can be purged. I think that the supervisor is the
one that is going to institute it anyway. We are not going to go and look at those
personnel files to be dealing with it in the first place. That would have to be instituted by
the supervisor.
Corrie: Mr. Mayor, it says here any offending material may be removed upon showing by
the employee that is inaccurate or misleading. I think that is absolutely correct it should be
in there. I still think that disciplinary notices records will be removed I take that as could
be, but will be I don't go along with that.
Morrow: And then my last comments were on page 22 and they were simply we talked at
the work session about fully vesting our long term employees, I don't see anything in here
that alludes to that. And that also we may put in one day per employee for the sick leave
pool to fund it to get it going and I don't see anything in here that alludes to either one of
those things. So I brought those up as topics.
Kingsford: Well, the sick leave thing why don't you let me take a look at what that master
contract did say as to how that was started. I think that whatever you say it ought to say
that the City may have rather than to put in one per each employee, that the City may
charge it with something to start it.
Morrow: I think that when we adopt this we also make this decision to fund that and also
make the decision in terms of our long term employee that in my opinion certainly shouldn't
have to start from scratch. I think we draw a line somewhere, maybe it is year 10 or
whatever the case may be. Those people become fully vested in this document and does
everybody else take up where they start off.
Kingsford: Well I don't think you can discriminate against a class of employees on the
length of their service other than for benefits. I am not sure we can say we won't charge
a person that has been here if the sick leave banks erodes is that what you are saying.
And if you are here 10 years the City will give one instead of having to pony one up.
Morrow: Well I guess, for example like the vacation issue, we got some 20 year employees
and so now they are going to be entitled to 20 years I am sorry 20 days vacation. What I
am saying is when we adopt the document do we give them the 20 days vacation or do
they start from scratch?
Kingsford: Oh I think it is whatever they have got with the City. They would be vested the
number of years they have spent with the City. I think legally we have to.
Morrow: The point of my comment was that the long term employees benefits come to
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 52
those when we adopt them and that they don't start from scratch is what I am after I think.
Kingsford: Does that have to be addressed specifically Wayne or when you adopt
something like this I think there is a logical assumption that they're in here would follow
in this document.
Crookston: I think it should be stated.
Kingsford: Would you give a little thought to its location as to where that should be most
appropriately and give that to Berg then. And I am going to take a look at the one issue
on the sick leave and try to address that. And you have those other concerns we will try
and go through and clean those up. Others than that you have, we discussed the one.
Yerrington: Yes, I had a note to on the accrual on both sick leave and vacation. I think
we should go back say 3 years prior and look at everybody's sick leave and all this stuff.
We have a lot of employees that have never taken any sick leave. We have a lot of
employees that use theirs up. But I still say we go back on both vacation and our sick
leave and set a time and go back and look at their records and say okay here is Joe Blow
he has only taken a week and he is entitled to a 3 so maybe he has his 20 days to carry
over just like that. And Joe Blow he used all of his up so let him start from day one and
use it up. Sleep on that.
Kingsford: Again, I have a concern with regard to fair treatment of those people. Those
items go year to year, I think you have to start everybody on this accrual basis and the
number of days at the time you institute the document to treat them fairly.
Yerrington: That is about the only thing other than Walt and the 20 years.
Kingsford: Bob?
Corrie: On page 6, number 3, there should be an exclusion there for the fire department
personnel about sleeping on duty.
Kingsford: We were still talking about an addendum that specified some things for the
police department. I think probably that is going to have to be a must.
Corrie: I think you are absolutely right, this is one of them here and there is another one.
Kingsford: I think we had about 3 or 4 of them when we went through it the last time. That
page 12, the work periods, we do definitely need to say "sworn law enforcement officers
and fire fighter' not field paramedics.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 53
Berg: On that number 3, late or be absent from the employee's work station
Kingsford: That could be a work station for that person I guess. That is an assumption.
Corrie: For firemen that is their work station. It says within the work place employees
shall not sleep, they have to be able to sleep. And then on that page 12, number 8, work
periods, "sworn law enforcement officers and fire fighters" in place of field paramedics.
And on page 14
Morrow: Because we don't have any paramedics?
Corrie: That is correct. On page 14
Berg: The fire fighters is a different group than the fire marshall and fire chief, correct?
Corrie: They are under a different pay schedule right. Then on page 14, we need
someplace under vacation leave and sick leave which we make the statement that sick
leave and vacation leave cannot be used before it is accrued. In other words somebody
days I am going to work 20 years so I get 20 days. It does make sense but it does, if they
say you have to work 6 months they don't accrue five days.
Kingsford: Well, in saying that are you saying that a person may not take any vacation
until they have worked one full year?
Corrie: No, I am just saying they can't take it until it is accrued. If they are accruing it,
what is the accrued rate? Half a day a month?
Kingsford: But it doesn't stipulate to that.
Corrie: Well, we have to have something some way of
Kingsford: (Inaudible) 6 month probationary period, well in their first year they are able
to take it.
Corrie: Well it says vacation accrues at the start of employment in the following manner
based on eight hours per day, 1 through 3 years is 5 days. Let's say they work their 6
months are they entitled to 5 days then?
Yerrington: They are not there a year why would they.
Kingsford: Your comment then is vacation may not be taken before it is accrued?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 54
Corrie: Vacation or sick leave can not be taken before it is accrued. In other words what
I am saying is it says here after 6 months of probationary time that they can have vacation
time.
Kingsford: So let's put that in right after full time employees put in vacation may not be
taken before it has accrued.
Corrie: Okay, and you have to have somewhere in here, I thought you did at one time,
how does it accrue? Half a day per month or what is this 5 days, how does it accrue
vacation accrue. One to 2 years you get 5 days how is it accruing? Five days in one year
that is classified as
Kingsford: You can't do that, I suppose you could use hours if you want to break it down
to that point.
Corrie: Somebody is going to work 6 months and going to want 5 days.
Kingsford: Well, they can work 6 months and have 2 1/2.
Corrie: Okay, that is what I am getting at.
Kingsford: Okay, please let's not let until the next meeting before additions are made to
this. As you review them get them to Mr. Berg, we will get these adaptations made for you
at the next Council meeting. As you go through any additional ones you see and maybe
review what we have with regard to that sick leave pool in the next week or so and
hopefully maybe we can act on this at Council and you can review it a little more carefully
from a legal standpoint. We have the appropriate documents to weight it against in terms
of fair labor standards and medical leave act and all that garbage.
Morrow: Quick question, do we have to have a public hearing to adopt this?
Kingsford: No
Morrow: So at our next meeting we could adopt it?
Kingsford: Correct, I guess my recommendation strongly is to you though that before we
do that after what we feel we have a fairly clean document that be given to the department
heads and be discussed with the troops first. I think that you will find it to be a lot
smoother process if we have made any mistakes that they see that those maybe get
remedied or their feelings (inaudible).
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 55
Yerrington: Would it be possible to delay our meeting this Thursday for say a week and
get the information, at our department head meeting and have them go over it, if we get
to them ahead of time.
Kingsford: What have you done with regard to the department head meeting, have you
set it up for this Friday yet?
Berg: (Inaudible)
Kingsford: I think that is probably a good idea maybe to have the commissioners sit down
with those people in a session.
Morrow: Do we get a new printout before we do that?
Kingsford: I think we get a new printout and you guys take a look at that pretty seriously
at the next meeting is what I was suggesting and then take that document with you to your
respective departments. Max did you have anything?
Yerrington: No, nothing.
Kingsford: Bob?
Corrie: Two things real quick, does the Council have any objection to the Parks have
Fuller Lane Park sign made for that private lane that goes back into the park. We have it
cleared through APA and the Highway District and everybody else. They said as long as
the City Council has no objections to it.
Kingsford: I am pretty confident there was a Council that authorized that a few years back.
Morrow: So moved
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: All those in favor? Opposed?
• 1. MTHTS 154_
Corrie: The fire department has opened the bids on the EMS truck and the rescue box.
This low bid is $53,067 from Boise Mobile. The rural is paying half of that so it is
$26,533.50 and we would like to take that out of the fire truck fund if Council so approves.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 56
Morrow: Did you budget for that?
Corrie: Yes, I budgeted it for it but it is a fire truck equipment that is why I am bringing it
to Council.
Kingsford: Well, here is the issue Bob even though it is in the Fire Truck Fund it has to be
budgeted in this year's expense I think is what he is asking. And it was budgeted, you
have that amount and you budgeted it.
Corrie: Right, actually it was $40,000 budgeted in the fire truck fund.
Morrow: Now, we put $40,000 into the fire truck fund in your budget you had $40,000
budgeted to spend for this truck and it came out of the fire truck fund?
Corrie: Right for $26,533.50. We had budgeted $40,000 for the fire truck fund. Of that
$40,000 we need $26,533.50.
Morrow: What happens to the other $13,000
Kingsford: It still goes in the fire truck fund (inaudible).
Morrow: Okay, so the point that I am after here is that we have been funding the fire truck
fund at the tune of $40,000 a year on the side of the City, now when you structured the
budget last year you structured to buy this EMS truck at the tune of $40,000 and that
money to buy it was to come from that fund.
Corrie: Right
Kingsford: Will makes a comment here as to who has to sign the authorization to
purchase from them and I think in the past that has always been the rural department
because they haven't had to go through the same bid requirements that the City does, is
that correct? We went through the bid alright but who signs the acceptance of that bid
where it is a joint purchase? It seems like in the past that has been the rural
commissioners.
Crookston: I think that it could be either one because it is joint money that is buying it is
it not?
Corrie: Right
Kingsford: So we would both need to, certainly they want to.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 57
Crookston: I think that is appropriate for both.
Kingsford: I would entertain a motion authorizing the Mayor to sign and award that bid, or
pardon me we need to accept that bid is what we need to do.
Morrow: Just out of curiosity, how many bids did you have?
Corrie: We had 3 bids come in and the one bid came in at $47,600 they had to take it back
because they couldn't supply the truck, they could not get it. The next one was $53,067
and the next one was $59,800.
Morrow: So we are taking the $53,067?
Corrie: Because that is the only low responding bid.
Morrow: And you have the necessary documentation to document the non-responsive
bid?
Corrie: Right
Morrow: Mr. Mayor I would move that we accept the apparent low bid of Boise Mobile
Equipment in the City's amount of $26,533.50.
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Wait, second by Max to approve of Boise Mobile Equipment bid for
an emergency vehicle the City's half being $26,533.50, all those in favor? Opposed?
Morrow: Mr. Mayor I would move that we authorize the Mayor to sign and the City Clerk
to attest the award of the bid.
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Walt, second by Bob to authorize the Mayor and City Clerk to sign
the award of the bid, all those in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: Anything else Bob?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 58
Corrie: No that is all.
Kingsford: I have 2 items, one I guess did everyone get a copy of the request for a late
comers agreement with Treasure Valley Baptist Church?
Morrow: We just got that tonight right?
Kingsford: Yes, what kind of research prevailed this evening? Treasure Valley Baptist
Church is not in the City. Did they ever request authorization to hook to the City water
and were they given a double assessment. I don't have any recollection of them requesting
to the City facilities. They are not in our billing system currently for sewer. That is our
ordinance requirement isn't it that they have to request the Council?
Smith: Yes it it Mr. Mayor. The only thing I have, I went back and looked in my file, the
only thing I have is a letter I wrote to Tim Cathart who was at that time in October of 1992
a member of the Treasure Valley Baptist Church. And it has to do with them connecting
to the sewer line that was being extended at that time by the developer of Sportsman Point
Subdivision. And that the contractor who was making the extension for Sportsman Point
developer had given them a special deal for digging in the service line from the main to the
church. I told Tim at that time that this dry line connection was allowed prior to City
approval and payment of fees so that your church could take advantage of the
arrangement with Rhodes Construction. As we discussed on the telephone the actual use
of the service line is dependent upon City Council approval since the building is located
outside City limit boundaries and payment of the appropriate connection fees.
Kingsford: We have never had a request to be able to hook have we at the Council?
Smith: I can't find anything in my file that says that the request was made and I don't
know.
Kingsford: What is the deal with Stor-Mor, they are in the City limits is my understanding?
Smith: Stor-Mor is yes.
Kingsford: And they extended a line to themselves.
Smith: Well, they extended a water line in Tear Avenue from Overland Road to provide
service to themselves, coincidentally it is also providing a fire hydrant or two for fire
protection to the Treasure Valley Baptist Church which was a condition of the fire
department for continued development of that church.
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 59
Morrow: So does this water line go all the way to the baptist church then?
Smith: Yes it does
Kingsford: But just utilized to their fire plugs then not for domestic use?
Smith: I don't know it has been stubbed into them for them to connect, I don't know
whether they have or not at this point Grant.
Kingsford: Well, at least we are not getting any payment for it, I think that is something we
need to ascertain or they are heaven forbid stealing our water.
Smith: I didn't get a chance, from the time I heard about this coming up tonight I didn't get
a chance to dig into payment of fees.
Kingsford: Let's leave this for 2 weeks with you to research if that is alright for your
department.
Smith: I will do that.
Kingsford: The other thing is we need to approve of the 1992-1993 audit, you guys have
that, reviewed it. We discussed it at the work session, we couldn't approve it until our
regular meeting. Is there a motion to approve of that?
Morrow: So moved
(End of Tape)
Kingsford: All those in favor? Opposed?
MOTION CARRIED: All Yea
Kingsford: One other item and I apologize, I thought we had an early meeting. Can I
impose upon you for about a 5 minute executive session with regard to the purchase of
property.
Yerrington: I move we go into executive session.
Corrie: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Max, second by Bob to go into executive session, all those in favor?
Meridian City Council
May 2, 1995
Page 60
Opposed?
EXECUTIVE SESSION
Kingsford: Let's call the meeting back to order. In executive session the Council discussed
the possible acquisition of land and no final decision was made. We'll be in a public
meeting when that is decided. Having no further business I would entertain a motion for
the Council to adjourn.
Corrie: So moved
Yerrington: Second
Kingsford: Moved by Bob, second by Max to adjourn, all those in favor? Opposed?
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:02 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
ATTEST:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JM/CIVY JM/CICLERK
APPROVED: