Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005 10-25 Joint City of KunaMeridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 The Meridian City Council and Kuna City Council joint meeting was called to order at 12:00 P.M. on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle and Christine Donnell. Staff Present: Bill Nary, Anna Canning, Ted Baird, Brad Watson, Len Grady, John Shawcroft, Brad Hawkins-Clark and Will Berg. Kuna City Council Members Present: Mayor Dean Obray, Scott Dowdy, Zella Johnson and Jeff Lang. McGowan: I would like to send around a sign up sheet for everybody so that we know who is here, so I will just go ahead and send that around if I can. I believe that we are taping the meeting today. We have a quorum, I think, of the City Council of Kuna so we are being re-recorded here, but I hope that doesn’t stop anybody from saying what needs to be said. So, with that what I would like to do is – I don’t know if everyone knows everyone here or not – let’s just go around and do introductions around the room if we could. I think that would help me anyways to know who is who. So, if I could start with you. Grady: Len Grady, Meridian City Engineer. Watson: Brad Watson, Meridian Public Works Director. Shawcroft: John Shawcroft, Meridian Wastewater Department. Sanders: Diana Sanders, Kuna Planning and Zoning Director. Lang: Jeffery Lang, Kuna City Council President. Dowdy: Scott Dowdy, Kuna City Council. Obray: Dean Obray, Mayor of Kuna. Shreeve: Kevin Shreeve, City Engineer, City of Kuna. Johnson: Zella Johnson, Council member. Wardle: Shaun Wardle, Meridian City Council President. Bird: Keith Bird, Meridian City Council. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 2 of 24 De Weerd: Tammy de Weerd, Meridian Mayor. Pecchenino: Mark Pecchenino, Ada County. Donnell: Christine Donnell, City Council, Meridian. Obray: Let’s – back to the corner over here so we don’t forget you – Grove: Randy Grove, Kuna City Attorney. Fick: Joyceanne Fick, citizen of Kuna. Berg: Will Berg, City Clerk for the City of Meridian. Stroebel: Trina Stroebel, Kuna citizen. Shepherd: Craig Shepherd, DEQ. Burnell: Barry Burnell, Water Quality Administrator of DEQ. Ariss: Chas Ariss, Engineer and Manager with DEQ. Walker: Justin Walker with Keller Associates (inaudible). Keller: Jim Keller of Keller Associates. Hawkins-Clark: Brad Hawkins-Clark, Principal City Planner of Meridian. Canning: Anna Canning, Planning Director for the City of Meridian. Baird: Ted Baird, City of Meridian, Deputy City Attorney. Nary: Bill Nary, City Attorney (inaudible). McGowan: Great, thank you very much. In terms of the agenda, that is just something that we worked up here at DEQ with the Director yesterday. Is there anything --? Is this okay with folks? Is there anything that you would like to see different with the agenda before we go ahead and move forward? Looks okay? Bird: Looks good to me. McGowan: Let me just give a tiny bit of background here and then we will turn it over and talk a little bit about what we want to go out of this meeting and maybe beyond and then turn it over to the cities to talk about their activities. Basically, what’s going on is Meridian is growing, growing south and Kuna – I think all of Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 3 of 24 these cities are growing in all directions, but as Meridian grows south and Kuna growths north, there is some areas that need infrastructure for wastewater and for other things that aren’t there right now. Both communities have come to DEQ and talked to us about that infrastructure and I think it’s just an opportune time right now to sit down and talk about (inaudible) with everybody at the table because that area is going to grow. The development is going to happen there and it needs to be served and I think it needs to be done in a way that it makes sense from a lot of different aspects and it probably makes sense just to talk about how that can be done in the best way possible. That’s really why I think we are here today. So, there are some concerns. DEQ is involved for a couple of reasons. We were asked to get involved to just kind of help put this thing together. I think the other thing is there are some things that we have to keep in mind for environmental issues and so there are things like if there is going to be discharge to (inaudible) to the Boise River. There is a TMDL that controls how much new (inaudible) can go into that river and it would require an EPA comment and a MPDS permit to do that and that was something that needs to be out on the table. Also, a good portion of some of the area that we are talking about are either in or near what we call a (inaudible) priority area. So, areas that already have contaminated groundwater. So, that is another environmental concern that is out there. Really, where DEQ is coming from is that we are just willing to come here to help, however, we can. So, if we can be of assistance putting meetings together like this again (inaudible) that is great, but we have a lot of great technical expertise here and both in the region and in the state program office and we would like to be of help from the technical side if you want us to be helpful about this. That is really our role in this thing. That is really all I have as an introduction. If each of the Mayors might give a little introductory remark, too – I don’t know if that would be helpful or not, but I will put you on the spot and maybe let you (inaudible) too, if you don’t mind. Obray: Well, first of all I would like to thank DEQ for the opportunity of bringing us together as two cities and being a neutral party to give insight and envision about where we are going with the sewer systems and growth as it pertains to that. I do appreciate the opportunity of airing this problem out. I see this as not a problem for Meridian and Kuna as it is for the whole state. The whole state is going to be faced with this issue. It is just a matter of time. We are the first ones, I guess, that has come to the table and said is it reasonable to cooperate in these kinds of areas and I think this could set some ground work for all of Idaho as the future growth happens. So, we should look at this as an opportunity to resolve some growth issues and maximize tax dollars and that is what it is all about or at least that’s the way I see it. De Weerd: Well, there is not too much more that I can add to what Mayor Obray has already stated. We are all fully aware that nothing stops with the city limits and that environmentally there is a growth that is being experienced in the valley; it just underscores how collaborative efforts are so important and in addressing Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 4 of 24 and preserving the resources that we have. We can do our cities (inaudible), great service by collaborating and planning for this region and looking at it for a region. Certainly, it has been done in the valley with partnerships between Boise City with both Garden City and Eagle and this is a region that needs to have facilities to serve the growth and certainly to look at the septic systems that are in that area when they do sell, what resources will be provided or available there as well. There has been growth in the county and that is another component and I appreciate that Mark is here representing the county as we move forward in having this discussion. Thank you. McGowan: I think a follow up on both those comments and I think that is really why we are all here. I am glad that we are doing that. There are other players in this too. I am glad that you are here from Ada County as well. We talked about if there is MPDS permits in the future or changes to those – EPA is another partner there because state doesn’t have primacy for MPDS, so that would be an EPA involvement. We may be talking on some of our next steps about other agencies that they may be involved with. With that I would just like to throw out and just ask folks if they have thought about what our real goal is for this particular meeting. It sounds like we have accomplished one just getting everybody around the table and talking. I think we are going to have some education today, too and I think that is another goal for all of us in this room to get educated to what the others are doing along with these types of projects. If there are some other things that you would like to see happen in the meeting today, that we can kind of outline and make sure that we cover those types of things or if this is just our initial discussion and where we need to start. Maybe we need to talk about that (inaudible). Any thoughts? Okay, I am going to start and say that we are probably on track then and that we are going to get educated and just talk and hope we have some good discussions relative to that. Maybe the next thing on the agenda, where we talk about long term goals and objectives, maybe we really need to have our discussions first before we talk about that (inaudible) as well, I think -- what I am hearing the long term is we need to know what’s going on now in that area and be able to be ready for the upcoming (inaudible) and be of service (inaudible) as well (inaudible) and being mindful of costs and taxpayers and all those types of things – I think those are some long term goals that I see. So, maybe we can talk a little bit more about that as we – is there anybody that wants to add to that? Correct me? Well, if that is really where we are, I would say we should just go right on in there and let the cities go ahead and make their presentations. Mayor Obray, I have Kuna up here first – so, if you folks would like to start off – Obray: I think the City Engineer and my director is going to tell you what was done in the past, what our future planning efforts are focused at and basically where we are today, so – I don’t know if you want to start or Diana wants to start. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 5 of 24 Shreeve: Just to give you a brief history – that is the intent and try to give some additional information. We do have some maps, if we need to refer to those, but approximately about a year ago, probably even before then, but about a year ago, Keller Associates was retained by the city of Kuna to begin the evaluation of the sewer, the water and the pressurized irrigation system within the city. Keller is now at the point where they are completing those three respective studies having looked at the comprehensive area surrounding Kuna and soon will be, in fact, I believe within just the next couple of weeks, we will be submitting a draft report on those three individual studies, so more or less that has now come to an end and we are in the process of reviewing the draft reports and then finalizing those studies. Basically, in short sense, certainly this is probably more of a predominantly surrounding sewer so if there is any questions on water or pressurized irrigation, I can answer those questions as well. But, with regards to sewer, probably just about 10 to 12 months ago, we had a meeting at the City of Meridian with Brad and I don’t recall who was all there from the City of Meridian, but also the City of Nampa, Paul Raymond, Public Works Director from the City of Nampa was also there talking about between the three cities just how we might from an engineering perspective or geographically divide up the area and what makes sense with regards to what areas could be served. There was kind of an identified no-mans-land at one point and time on how that area would be served. So, we talked, had some great discussion and I came back and of course from Kuna’s perspective, we continued to evaluate the area. What was identified as a no-mans-land, which is basically the northwest area between Kuna and Meridian, we thought well geographically would serve probably better down hill or to the south to serve by virtue of Kuna’s plan, so we proceeded along that direction and with regards to our plans, we are headed, obviously looking at a treatment facility – that is certainly an option that we are looking at north of town. We have evaluated and we have been through the process of what we call a technical review committee, I believe Chas attended those technical review committees. We had three or four of those where we invited several – well, all of the agencies and DEQ was a participant in those meetings talking about upgrading the lagoons or building a new plant or basically, obviously through the gyration of those meetings, we went through several different options and ended with the potential option of building a treatment facility to the north and certainly, in subsequent meetings with the City of Meridian looking at the possibility of either an interim lift station to benefit the City of Kuna and pump subsequently into the City of Meridian or some kind of joint treatment plant as well. So, those are certainly options that we have looked at. Either case, probably sighting a potential treatment plant again north of town. So, of course with the growth both to the north, south, east and west because Kuna is just growing all the directions, obviously the infrastructure has been looked at and master planned for accordingly. The growth, certainly, of course we are looking at a 20-year growth rate trying to master plan out a pretty sizable area. I guess in a nutshell, that is where we are as far as the infrastructure as far utility planning is concerned. If there is more questions – I’ll turn some time over Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 6 of 24 to Diana and then we can certainly proceed more in depth if there is any questions on that. Sanders: Well, Kuna’s comprehensive plan was updated in 2003, but the area was not negotiated with the county. We are going to be looking at updating our comprehensive plan and starting that process fairly soon. I have just come on board, so if have questions, I could probably answer them. I did work for Kuna previously, but I am not sure what exactly you want to discuss. Shreeve: Maybe just to give you a little bit more history on the utility side and certainly as we plan on the comprehensive plan needing to serve that area, but and I probably should have indicated before – everybody knows the history of Kuna. Kuna has been in some pretty dire straits over the last several years regarding their sewer capacity and that is really what has prompted this whole evaluation of the sewer system. Kuna has been in a moratorium a year or so ago and Kuna continues to grow in spite of the deficiencies that exist, certainly within the sewer system. So, Kuna has taken a progressive look at trying to fulfill their needs, trying to accommodate things that they need to do to ensure their future and to ensure the high standard quality of living for their residences and that is why Kuna is just – you know they have been needing to do this for the last several years and so they have taken that effort and that step forward and that is where we are today. I should indicate that we had this technical review committee and again Chas participated in that as well as, I believe, Ada County was there and we had (inaudible) resources – again, all those agencies, but from that point we also had a citizens advisory committee, as then we started looking at and again from the perspective of Kuna looking at doing a new treatment plant. We then introduced that to a panel of citizens, both within and without the City of Kuna to help get some kind of a feedback from the citizenry of Kuna as to the location of – the potential location of a treatment plant. So, we had probably about four or five meetings with that group as well. Through the process of that, a site has been identified. The idea of a new treatment plant was solidified or certainly the idea of a treatment plant as well as another option other than the existing lagoons was certainly a primary concern to the citizens that were part of this committee. So, again that is more or less the direction the city is heading and certainly the feedback and the coordination with Meridian (inaudible) of course is where we are today – is solidifying the direction that Kuna needs to go frankly to satisfy their problems and they have got issues today. You know they don’t have issues that we are protecting five years from now. They have got issues today. So, that is why it is an urgent issue as far as Kuna is concerned and that something needs to be done and be progressively moving forward in a fairly quick succession. McGowan: Thank you, Kevin. Just so you know lunch is being delivered. Lunch is coming. If you signed up for lunch you are getting a lunch. I believe there is Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 7 of 24 26 lunches that are showing up. So, hopefully we have enough for everyone and if not we will see how that goes. Obray: I am going to charge for these, so you might as well eat them. McGowan: Are there any questions for Kevin? Or for the discussions on the things that was brought up? Shreeve: Again, we do have maps. I don’t know, but if there are any questions or further detailed comments – McGowan: How about the City of Meridian? Are you ready to talk a little bit about your planning activities and then maybe some discussion afterwards? Watson: I don’t have a formal presentation. I have a few notes to discuss some of the things that we have been doing. (Inaudible -----------) in Nampa. We actually had a map rolled out and had some markers and just kind of played with that a little bit. There was a no-mans-land that was identified and I think we kind of both went away from that thinking “huh” and we just started looking at that. So, we kind of went on a somewhat parallel track that and we were a little more aggressive in looking at that. We have met a couple of times in the year since. One of the things that we were doing anyway was updating our sewer master plan and collection system – hydraulic model. We are updating the whole city, but also looking at some areas in the northwest that might eventually (inaudible) and we added the south area into that collection system master plan at the same time. That study has – I do have a draft of that. It should be complete this month or next month, I guess. Concurrently, we began a water master plan last winter – it was to update the whole city, same deal there (inaudible------------) in these areas there to our consultant’s contract (inaudible------) issues. After our initial waiting in May, April or somewhere in there, I was directed to take a level from the sewer options in the south and we developed six alternatives – just anything that we could think of came out and it ranged from (inaudible) operated, constructed and operated treatments (inaudible---------) something as different as a sewer (inaudible) in that area. The alternative that Meridian favored was an interim pump station (inaudible-------) that would pump back into Meridian, specifically with the Black Cat Trunk system. Those from Meridian are very familiar with that project, it’s a 36-inch trunk system that (inaudible-------------------) lift station. (Inaudible--------------------------------------) on Ten Mile Road. That project is on schedule and should be completed in January 2006. As a result of those discussions and meetings and the six options that we looked at, we did have yet another consultant take a conceptual look at what would be involved in this regional lift station on Mason Creek and I will go back a little bit. Part of the reason we favored that alternative was that we didn’t really want to participate in a project that relied on rapid (inaudible-------------------------------------------) and see if there is an (inaudible---------) at Mason Creek or if we would be locked in to Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 8 of 24 (inaudible) facility (inaudible). So, we have a very rough draft (inaudible) study on that regional lift station, in fact we got it yesterday. I haven’t fully reviewed it. I have already identified some things that need to be fixed. So we may not have been as specific as we should have been – (inaudible------------------------------------ ------------------------------------). Part of the issue today is that our wastewater plant is approaching, not happening, but approaching (inaudible). We will begin construction in the next couple of weeks on a major expansion for the liquid stream. It will upgrade almost all of the liquid streams (inaudible--------------------- ). It is currently rated at 5.5. We will be bidding the solids portion of that expansion project – anticipate, hoping next May (inaudible) it will be next year for sure. The liquid stream project is really – it takes bottleneck in our treatment to get to the system – there (inaudible-------------) in jumping (inaudible--------------). We anticipate that project will be – the contract is for 24 months. We are very fortunate for the contract that we got that submitted a low bid and will be on site. We are hopeful (inaudible---------) a schedule somewhat, but as of today we don’t have a whole lot of extra capacity – when you take into account subdivisions (inaudible--------------------). Next summer will be a challenge for John and his staff at the wastewater plant. We have or we will this week be talking to another consultant that is different from the one that (inaudible--) our expansion (inaudible--------------). It’s just a preliminary discussion with some of the national consultants who squeeze every bit of the efficiency (inaudible------------) out of the system facility while the overall expansion is going on. Hopefully – not hopefully, that will get us through next summer. One of the other things that we are doing is yet another consultant – we have an agreement to (inaudible---) the possibility (inaudible-----------------------------------). We have one (inaudible) and they are going to pursue working at the TMDL status (inaudible-------------------------------) working with the (inaudible) as well. That was just the last two weeks. That is the end of everything we are doing. (Inaudible-------------------------------------------). Any questions? McGowan: Brad, that last comment – you are looking at the TMDL for your current treatment plant discharge or even considering something to the north? Watson: We are just having somebody look at the ability of pursuing an MPDS permit on this. To see if it’s even feasible. We have been told – we actually (inaudible) and we had a permit writer from Seattle come out and tour our wastewater plant a couple of weeks ago, just as a normal course of her getting into our permit control process. So, we kind of hijacked her for 15 minutes to talk about the whole process. According to (inaudible) it appeared a three to five year process to get that permit and once you go through – well, you have to get into the (inaudible -----------) and go through the negotiation. McGowan: And that is just to get the permit? Watson: Yes. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 9 of 24 Inaudible discussion Watson: (Inaudible-------------------------). (Speaker unknown): Where are you guys on your – with this expansion that is going to be completed in about 24 months? Do you have existing (inaudible) MPDS permit to handle that or is there a modification that has to happen? In other words, does that change your existing permit or not? Watson: Our existing permit goes up to 70 (inaudible). Our permit renewal is (inaudible) for at least a year and a half, so we have – there are some modifications that might (inaudible-------------------) in terms of solids handling (inaudible------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------). De Weerd: Mike, just to clarify the six options that Brad has carefully went through weren’t a result of the meeting that we had with Kuna and asking the two staffs to work together to come up with something that a joint meeting between the Council’s could be discussed on short and long term option and learn to work together and look at that as a regional issue, not just local issues. So, they did look at it, certainly they tried to look at it as broadly as they could, but they were looking at it (inaudible) single entity. Anna you might also talk about the planning exercise that Ada County and Meridian are doing as well. Canning: Yeah, Brad can get (inaudible---------) with the sewage, but my job is to figure out what is generated. What we have done is we got funding and we will begin very shortly actually a south Meridian north community, kind of the city’s survey to find out what people think in that area; what kind of development they want; who they identify with – just, you know, basic citizen participation effort and that is really the only goal of this consultant’s hire at this point, along with a market study of what kind of non-residential land uses could be supported in the area, but the primary one is the citizen’s participation and we will have a meeting on Friday that (inaudible) will be at and (inaudible) Friedman from the county to select a consultant. So, we are very close to beginning work on that. The eventual goal is to come up with land uses for whatever area is decided upon, in particular we have two referral areas that are a frustration to the people that are in them, so those would be the primary focus to find out what kind of land uses are appropriate; how does that relate to what is being done with the Communities in Motion project which most of you are familiar with and the Blue Print for Good Growth project and the Ada County Comprehensive Plan, so there is several studies that all need to mesh together for the areas. We hope to have that done – well, the citizen’s participation should be wrapped up in January or start subsequent (inaudible--------------------------------------------). Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 10 of 24 McGowan: Of the six options that are on the table for Meridian, how do those relate to the options for Kuna? Are they overlap or are they totally different? Are they – one (inaudible) of the other or are they totally separated? Shreeve: To refresh my memory, I didn’t bring that, but the six were basically Kuna have their own treatment plant – this may not be in any particular order, but Kuna have their own treatment plant and maybe south sewer to Meridian – would be to have Meridian have their own treatment plant self sewer – to Kuna would be to have a joint facility – do you have that list there, Brad? Watson: Number one was a (inaudible) pump station built on Mason Creek to pump to Meridian Black Cat. Number two, which was kind of a subset of some others was a treatment facility owned and operated by construction by Kuna on Indian Creek (inaudible---------). (Inaudible------------) operated construction by Kuna (inaudible) and vice-versa by Meridian on Mason Creek that the jointly constructive operated facility and then number six was kind of the flyer that we threw out (inaudible--------------------) between Kuna and Meridian. Shreeve: So, you know with regards to Kuna, I think there are a couple of options there that just don’t make sense, but you know again, it is just a brainstorming session that we just came up with and just putting them on the ground, but again the issue facing Kuna that is – well, it sounds like it could be facing Meridian, I guess, if the treatment plant wasn’t (inaudible) that update, but Kuna is needing to do something pretty quick and it sounds like Meridian is too for that matter as well. So, that is the dilemma. I mean if we had the next five years, I think we could truly come up with quote, unquote a perfect plan or you know, hopefully. We need, you know, both cities and of course representing Kuna we need to progress fairly, fairly quickly. We have got, in fact, one of the things we have just over somewhat 1,000 connections left of existing facilities, so we are coming to some pretty tight ground that we need to be moving forward and again, I guess, hopefully – I guess that is one of the objectives I would think of today’s meeting is and again representing Kuna is how can we proceed? What direction do we need to proceed and to proceed quickly in that direction so that we can certainly resolve the issues facing Kuna? (Speaker unknown): Once a decision is made, how would the construction schedules line up with getting in from there? I mean, are we talking – what would be the fastest time period? I just want to in my own mind to know when something like this would be held online and operating, whichever option we choose. Are we talking – is this a three to five years or five to seven year type of a project to make something happen or are you guys looking to make something happen sooner? And how would that fit with an MPDS permit within three to five years out? Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 11 of 24 Watson: I think (inaudible) alternative (inaudible---------) discharge into Mason Creek, I think in the long term (inaudible-----------------------). The interim pump station would pump back into Meridian Black Cat system. (Inaudible----------------- ------------------------). We have (inaudible) it is really a fast track project (inaudible- ---------------). (Speaker unknown): Would you need a new capacity (inaudible) too? Watson: (Inaudible-------------------------------------------------). McGowan: Kevin, do you kind of agree with those time frames in terms of what you see? Shreeve: Well, just to kind of tell you that the direction that we were headed – what we had thrown out amongst ourselves in our planning is that we were looking at – knowing that an MPDS permit would take some time that we have considered and will be – talked to some property owners for some interim rapid infiltration basin; something that could get – to tie it to lease. You know, probably not purchase, but certainly to tie up some land at least for a five to ten year period of time where we then construct a rapid infiltration basin for the first planned upgrade because knowing again the MPDS permit and going through that process with Mason Creek, but clearly the goal and the hope is that we can obtain that discharge because Kuna is in the same situation as Meridian. You know land is too valuable, it’s being consumed quickly. The only reasonable way to get rid of water is to discharge it. There is just not the land available like there used to be. But, on an interim basis, that is what Kuna is looking at. If we were to go on our own, we would be looking at some kind of interim land application if you will, but yet that goes away as soon as we get a discharge permit. McGowan: So, everyone is pretty much in agreement that anything relative to rapid infiltration basins or land apps are a temporary deal because at some point there is not going to be any landfill – Shreeve: Right. (Speaker unknown): What is the timeframe for that? Shreeve: We were anticipating and projecting to have the treatment plant online roughly within about three years. Of course, you know, going through the design, the construction, you know, we hope three years is on the long end, but anywhere from approximately two and one half years. So, certainly during that time over designing and building, of course, then we are getting this rapid infiltration basin, you know designed as well or constructed as well so that we can discharge, but through that process as well paralleling would be these permits; be it Indian Creek, be it Mason Creek, whatever that permit needs to be. Then certainly by the next upgrade, which would be projected potentially Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 12 of 24 anywhere from five to six to seven years or beyond that – so, beyond what two and one half years, so somewhere within the next five to seven years is when we would need to have some kind of discharge permit in place. We would figure that we would exceed the land that we would be looking at. Again, five to seven years, that is all depending on the growth. (Speaker unknown): I didn’t follow that. So, your infiltration would come in (inaudible). Shreeve: Well, the infiltration would come obviously when the plan was constructed. (Inaudible) on two and one half years. One two and one half years we would have infiltration basin; depending on growth; depending on a lot of those things that we – you know, hope we had a crystal ball, but it’s projected from that point roughly about five years. That infiltration would buy us five years plus or minus sometime there. So, technically from today that would give us seven years to get some kind of a discharge permit. However, we don’t want to pursue going down a path today and seven years from now they say oh, you can’t have a discharge permit. So, we have got to have a very good indication that something can happen today even if it takes five years from now to get that. But, we need to have a pretty good idea that that is a possibility. McGowan: I don’t know if you had this discussion, but actually I was going to ask Chas, but he just stepped out of the office, too. In terms of – you know because some of that area is nitrate priority areas, there is going to be some difficulty in getting a permit to do that rapid infiltration basin or – Shreeve: And we are aware of that. McGowan: -- and you talked about that, so it’s something that could still work. It probably has to do with the level – how clean that water is that (inaudible) putting it in the basin. Obray: I guess I am concerned on a couple of areas that I would like to express my opinion. First of all, we did take a trip back to Atlanta, Georgia and toured some sites there and one of the most impressive sites was a 5-million gall per day plant that was operating in the middle of a subdivision of no less than $2.5 million homes. So, first of all that tells me the right kind of plant is user friendly, neighbor friendly, but the most important thing of what I would like to tell you is every bit of water that comes out of that plant was sold to golf courses because believe it or not Florida, Alabama and Georgia are just in as much shortage for water on a normal year as Idaho is and they are fighting for water out of the same river and so they reuse that water to their benefit to help pay for the sewer system. I think that the short-term remedy no matter what we are talking here, discharge is a short-term remedy, whether it be a rapid infiltration basin or Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 13 of 24 discharge into Indian Creek or Boise River. The long term should be reused and I will always say that. We just need that same five-year plan for the state to change their re-use permit, so that we can re-use that water in a more effective manner. They have changed it to some degree and it is re-usable today and we should be re-using that water for re-charge purposes if nothing else. Definitely there is money to be made in water. So, we are missing the ball if all we are thinking about doing is purifying sewer. That is only half of the equation. The other half of the equation is maximizing income from what you are purifying and reusing it. That being said, it is all in that five year, seven-year plan for everyone to catch up. I can tell you that Boise Board of Control has realized the problem that we have and that they have and they have authorized money to be spent to go back to Washington, D.C. in the next year and lobby the people that represent us nationwide to try to get the laws changed to re-use the water and be able to put it in irrigation canals without forfeiting their rights and so it’s coming on the front. Again, it’s a three to five to seven year out there kind of thing to make everything change, but those things are going to happen. The problem is Kuna can’t wait that long. I mean, our land application that we have will be maximized out if the present growth rate continues in three years. We will have no more sewer facility available. At least more capacity. I think Chas will fully agree that we are there or real close to it. So, I guess where I am at is talk is good, but we have to go past this –if Kuna is going to be at the table for a cooperative effort, then we have to come up with hard numbers and we have to do it immediately. I don’t have the luxury of waiting six months or a year. I have got to know what it’s going to cost me to supply sewer services for the next 20 years and I have got to know within the next six months. Those have got to be hard numbers and from what I am hearing, you know – I can give you an example of Boise and Garden City or whomever it is they are supplying. They had a sewer district and Boise is paying a lot more now than when they are supplying service to because they had a sixty-year contract. Well, for the City of Kuna and as a Mayor representing the City of Kuna, I wouldn’t even think about going into an agreement with someone else serving my sewer unless I had a long-range agreement. It just isn’t practical. So, you have to do a forty or sixty year plan, but you have to be able – the city that is supplying the services have got to protect themselves because of the cost of services. So, I don’t say that it is a mountain that can’t be climbed, but I am saying there is a lot of things involved and it is a very intricate, delicate, complicated matter that I don’t think I have time to wait for and it is a time issue for Kuna more than it is – and I will agree, I think in the end it would be best and maybe we still need to proceed, but I am telling you that I don’t have time to wait for all these answers. I have to make some decisions right away and so with that being said, I am not trying to shut down this whole thing, I am just trying to tell you that practical – I am out of sewer. If Kuna is going to grow and have commercial growth, we have to develop along the corridors that commercial people want. We can’t supply the services to our citizens on house top tax basing and you guys all know that. So, I have to make Kuna attractive and I can’t make Kuna attractive till I have adequate sewer supply and infrastructure Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 14 of 24 no matter who comes to town that I don’t have to say I only have got five permits left and that is all I have. Well, you just can’t do that. So, this whole conversation should be based on growth of the city as a whole and not infrastructure service even though that is where it all starts. But, the whole big thing for Kuna is where are we going to be in 20 years? What is our tax base going to be comprised of and how then do we service that tax base? But, today all I can look at is service because I am under the rock and so I am just putting it on the table. You know, I think this is all good and I am glad we are here, but the practical end of it is I have no time for what normally happens in these kinds of processes. I mean – De Weerd: I don’t understand a lot, but it sounds like your timeframe can’t be met even with the option that you are talking about, whereas the short term with the lift station buys us time to plan that area right for all of us. All of us includes the Ada County residents that are currently out there right now as well as both of our future rate payers and our existing rate payers and leveraging their dollar and making sure of what we do in that region is economically and environmentally sound. It buys us that planning time to make sure that it’s right and I know that Meridian is not really excited about the rapid (inaudible) because we are concerned about the impact that it’s going to have in the shallow aquifer and everything else that do potentially effect our residents and distribution. No one understands how the water flows and there is the eyelids in the middle school exercise and water and it blows you away how some of those things work. So, I guess when staff looked at it, they looked at being able to help find a short term solution for those that we need to serve in the south part of our community and the north part of yours. It just seems like a win situation for both of us and it buys that planning time so that we can plan appropriately, not just beyond your city limits, not just within your city limits and not just within ours, but within the region as a whole. I guess that is what the Blue Print for Good Growth, the Communities in Motion has been really advocating at looking beyond our own jurisdictions and seeing how we can best serve the valley. This is the critical part of the valley. I think that we have a viable solution – timing on it is certainly important and it’s already important to us getting that expansion on – the timing is actually perfect for us and it buys us a longer term planning horizon for making sure that we make the right decision on the system and how we all proceed together if that is what the decision is. Obray: I totally agree with what you said except the fact is today or tomorrow or next week Kuna has to make a decision on where we are going to go and if that decision is an interim pump station then that decision has to be based on real values and costs to the citizens and you have got to remember that once we choose a path to go that doesn’t eliminate our chance to go back and redo something, but the critical timeline then for Kuna to go back and install a plan is even that much greater in the distant future. So, without knowing the cost of putting in your trunk line and how much it’s going to cost Kuna and all these Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 15 of 24 other user fee factors and all that stuff, you know, really we can’t make that decision and I don’t think you could make that decision either without having those same numbers, but yet today or tomorrow or next week I have to make a decision which way we are going to go and it has to – we have to make that decision and it isn’t a luxury item for time. I don’t know how far out you are before you could give us those numbers, but it can’t be very far out or it is just not going to work. Speaker unknown: Mayor, you have your numbers now for your particular option you are talking about. Is that right? Does anyone want to comment on what it would take to get Mayor Obray what he is talking about there? Or – Speaker unknown: Brad, have you had a chance? Watson: Well, as I discussed earlier we do have a draft – (inaudible--------) study on a regional lift station. Some of the assumptions that went into that I had a little bit of trouble with. There were some costs opinions in that that they think are years old for sure (inaudible--------------). I think the system they are contemplating with in the interim pump station for 20 years. Yeah, it’s a huge system and I think the cost (inaudible-------------------). Again, I am only talking about 15 minutes in the last day to look at this and I understand where everybody wanting for figures in the term of forty to sixty years going out there and it would be really difficult recommending (inaudible) Council – kind of buy what’s going to last – we have a master plan that we are trying to wrap up and a water master plan that we are trying to wrap up. Those will be done this fall and really don’t proceed until after the first of the year (inaudible) conceptual (inaudible--------). McGowan: Chas maybe I could ask you this question? Is there just from a ballpark point of view in terms of costs (inaudible) comparisons (inaudible---------- --)? (Inaudible discussion) Speaker unknown: And that may not be enough for you Mayor, I am just trying to get an idea for myself of what we are talking about here in terms of order and (inaudible). Speaker unknown: (Inaudible-----------) with Jim Keller and (inaudible) with the larger treatment plant – (inaudible) now up in Valley County and (inaudible------) with (inaudible --------------------) treatment plant, but for a regional lift station I don’t know if we have anything on the table. Watson: I think we are only speaking about the regional lift station. I think we could have this study redone and wrapped up over the next two to three weeks Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 16 of 24 and have more of a (inaudible---------) costs (inaudible) capitalization, but in terms of treatment capacity (inaudible----------------------). Keller: That could be done depending on if the Mayor of Kuna would like for us to do – I mean we could sit down – we need to come up with conveyance costs (inaudible------------) lift stations to make a comparison and also (inaudible-------). You know I don’t know how big a handle you have got on those things, but that could begun probably within three or four weeks depending on the timeframe of (inaudible-----------) and I guess that is the issue that we have (inaudible-----------) and there is some promising things that happened, but it depends on (inaudible) from your Black Cat lift station (inaudible-------------------------------------------------), which are only just for treatment. One of the things that is an issue with Kuna is our (inaudible) per capita (inaudible------------------------------------------------). So, there are some issues there for off hours and do we get a credit for off hours? Just a lot of issues there that I think could be resolved with some kind of reasonable answer, but the Mayor of Kuna (inaudible---------------------------------). McGowan: You know, Jim just real quick. You mentioned INI and some people are wanting a definition of that, if you – (Inaudible discussion) Wardle: Brad, you had mentioned that the current expansion of the plant is underway and that is currently funded and all the projects that you talked about for the City of Meridian is completing including the Black Cat trunk are currently planning, is that correct? Watson: Yes. Wardle: So, really the only thing that we are talking about is an additional regional lift station from a capital structure cost that hasn’t been approved by our Mayor and Council would be the addition? Watson: Correct. I haven’t even gotten to the point to bring you a cost figure because it came in yesterday (inaudible) that budget enhancement would be (inaudible--------------------). Speaker unknown: It’s not funded, but there would be funds potentially available to do that, correct? Watson: Based on my capital improvement plan, yes there would be funding. Wardle: Thank you. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 17 of 24 Shreeve: Hey Brad, just one more thing – obviously we are talking about costs, but you didn’t mention obviously capacity as well. How much capacity could you reserve for Kuna? You know right now our initial phase, we are looking at about 4,200 connections for the initial phase. Although, again we have – I get phone calls daily for multiple subdivisions. I mean we could almost double that treatment plant and that’s phase one, instead of phase one being 4,200. So, that is going to be a key component, too in just how much capacity you could give us for the next – well whatever that planning horizon is, I mean if this is an interim period of time for whatever that interim period of time is, you know, can you give Kuna the capacity that they need? So, that is another question. De Weerd: Do you have that information? Shreeve: What’s that? De Weerd: What capacity you will need? How many hook-ups? Shreeve: Well, what we are targeting right now is 4,200 connections. De Weerd: What period of time? Shreeve: Well, that would be the first build-out. So, that would be, say, three years. Two in one half years is the timeframe that I have been indicating. So, in two and one half years when the treatment plant is online, we would have 4,200 new connections. De Weerd: So, that’s really within six years from today? Shreeve: No, it’s two and one half years from today. And that is where the Mayor was saying that with decisions that need to be made, whatever road we go down on, if the road is that Kuna build their treatment plant – if that is agreed upon if you will that in two and one half years they would have 4,200 new connections. De Weerd: Okay, but those aren’t going to be fully utilized right now? Shreeve: No, they would be. We would have the equipment. We would have the membranes. We would have the whole shoot match. Well, with the equipment ready. Is that what you mean? De Weerd: Uh-huh. Shreeve: Obviously utilized, the capacity would be there. Yeah, we aren’t going to have 4,200 connections. Is that what you mean? De Weerd: Yes. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 18 of 24 Shreeve: Yes, (inaudible) that is correct. Right. Speaker unknown: I think what the Mayor might be asking is of those 4,200 connections how long before those are used up? Shreeve: Umn, Justin can you help me with that one? Walker: Probably three to five years. Shreeve: And we have just – you know on a side note that the lagoons right now that they are not the ideal situation that Kuna likes to be in and there has been some property owners there have been issues associated with the lagoon system and we do have a lift station in particular that if we could divert that lift station to this new treatment plant that would certainly help with the treatment issues associated with the lagoons, so that is certainly one of the things that we are considering. So, the 4,200 because of that potential issue could be consumed fairly quickly if we turn a major lift station and get it off of the lagoon. So, that is certainly a consideration that we are looking at and certainly for Kuna’s benefit we would like to be able to alleviate as much as we can off of the lagoon as quickly as we can. If we can’t turn it as soon as we would like, we will just have to deal with the lagoon situation, but that is a hope. Speaker unknown: Kevin, I know you probably mentioned it, but how much capacity do you have right now? Shreeve: Remaining? Speaker unknown: Yes. Shreeve: 1,200 connections. McGowan: How many of those are taken, though? Shreeve: We have 1,200 remaining (inaudible) serves that we can get. Speaker unknown: Okay, so that 1,200 would be used up in the next two and one half years – Shreeve: If not in the next couple of months. McGowan: How many subdivisions and how many connections do we have out there right now that could be built, but we don’t have capacity for it? Shreeve: A lot. Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 19 of 24 McGowan: More than 1,200. Shreeve: So, stretch that 1,200 connections for two and one half years, that is obviously not going to happen. They will be used. Speaker unknown: So, does that give you a feeling that you couldn’t handle our capacity needs right now? Watson: Mayor and Council members – some perspective (inaudible--------) will add up to 3.5 mgd using our normal per capita flow and (inaudible--------------) so that’s roughly 11,000 to 12,000 dwelling units (inaudible-----------------). Inaudible discussion Speaker unknown: And this is when, Brad? Inaudible discussion McGowan: That is a year and a half down the road? Is that –? Speaker unknown: Just a year down the road. The first part of that? McGowan: And that will get you an additional 11,000 to 12,000? Is that what I heard? Speaker unknown: Yes. Speaker unknown: But today, Brad we are not (inaudible----------------------). I think we could convert that (inaudible-----------------------------------------------). We are talking two years (inaudible-----------). Donnell: I guess we are looking at 2 mgd. (Tape turned over) De Weerd: -- and this was funded. You know we are talking about something that is funded and so it does buy the time because it sounds like in your facility, which I don’t know if you have it fully funded, but it’s going to be almost at capacity when you open it up and then you will have to be expanding it at that time so it would be another major capital outlay where we have that capacity to the (inaudible). Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 20 of 24 Watson: How does the calculations that you just made fit with the numbers that (inaudible) is talking about and then (inaudible------------) capacity. Is there a bouncer (inaudible--------------------------------------------------------). One of the things that we were actually – that I didn’t mention at the introduction, but one of the other things were (inaudible----------------------------------------------------------------). Inaudible discussion. Bird: We are selling 4,200. De Weerd: We have a big heart. Watson: Yeah, our site will be full, but (inaudible) really odd shaped, triangle or wedged (inaudible) part of the triangle (inaudible------------) but we have extra room on (inaudible-------------------------). Bird: Brad, how many acres have we got left to develop on out there and are you now looking at another 20? Watson: I think we have (inaudible-----). Bird: We are on more than seven. Watson: I think we will have about 20 acres after (inaudible-----------). Bird: Thank you. McGowan: We have lunch out there. We are one lunch short and we understand that they went to get us an extra lunch, so if we don’t have all the lunches for everybody now, we will have them all within about two or three minutes. Johnson: If I might make a comment. We had to make some emergency changes to the lunch menu this morning, so we tried to place orders for each of you and it didn’t turn out quite the way that we were hoping. So, what I wanted to tell you is the choices of lunches that we have right now are chicken avocado club; prime rib dip; Santa Fe turkey sandwich and Angel’s steak sandwich and (inaudible) tuna melt. They are all out in containers outside and I apologize (inaudible-----------). Inaudible discussion. McGowan: Let’s see if we can figure out where we left off. Kind of what I heard is that I think we had a pretty good discussion. I think there were a couple of things that kind of needed to be resolved. I guess what (inaudible-----) is, you know, what Mayor Obray spoke about was the tight timeframe and what needs to have happen and I heard Jim Keller talk a little bit about if folks could be Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 21 of 24 available maybe we could get those hard numbers in three to four weeks (inaudible-----------) to help them work on that. Just with that being thrown out there, is there a chance to come together on something that could work, you know, for Kuna in that timeframe or are we already outside of what you need Mayor? Obray: I don’t know if I would throw that out. I guess, I have a City Council here in majority, so I guess I would authorize Keller engineering to work with Meridian to try and come up with some hard numbers to that affect as long as it can be done in a relatively short time and if it’s going to be out there six months, it’s a waste of effort and money. Keller: Any comment on --? I guess there are two issues for Meridian. One is being available to do that and when you would be available to do that and try and expedite those things along. Any thoughts on that? Speaker unknown: We will make ourselves be available. I think what we would need to do is meet with city engineer and Keller and figure out exactly what we are after. That would able us to go back and look at our various studies that are going on and see what (inaudible---------------------------), but let’s get precisely what (inaudible) we need to provide (inaudible----------) and put together a schedule in the next couple of days and (inaudible----------------------------). Speaker unknown: And the other thing, too, you know is if both (inaudible) would often talk amongst themselves over there, we could accommodate. Folks could go into my office and just talk about things. You are welcome to do that. Just try and feel out our thoughts and see if we can come together on those types of timeframes. So, what you are hearing – Johnson: Did what Brad do – (inaudible---------) Obray: Somebody else is going to have to tell me. I can’t hear what Brad says. I am too hard of hearing. He has a low voice. Watson: Sorry, Mayor. What I had said is that if we could define exactly what cost parameters we are looking at or what would be requested to provide – maybe within the next week, then we could go back with our various consultants and internal staff and put together a schedule of how we can bump things up and pull those out of the various studies we are doing and I can’t commit to three or four weeks right now without knowing exactly what parameters we are looking at. But, maybe in the next two weeks we can get that down there in our Keller Associates and then we can get you a pretty good schedule (inaudible-----------). The other thing that I will provide you along with that schedule is maybe some ranges (inaudible----------) so that you don’t expect you are getting something down to the cent, but – Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 22 of 24 Obray: Well, I understand that and I guess to throw in one more item. I know that we have been studying this a long time, but everyday things change. I think that our city engineer and probably Keller needs to review the present plans before the city. It just come in last week because I know at least one of those has a tremendous amount of housetops and I think we need to give you a projection on what we think that will be the very minimum amount of service we are going to require over the next ten years or whatever timeframe we are talking about. I think that that should be a part of the equation, but you have to have that number, I am assuming to supply us with what we want. So, I will be working on that, while Keller you are working on the criteria that we are interested in and we can get it all back to you hopefully within a week? Is that (inaudible)? McGowan: Is there anything that DEQ relative to help --? Keller: You can make folks available if you want or do you just want to work that out? (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: I think we all have to look at the plan and look at realistic projections. You know we all realize that it seems like lately nothing has been realistic. Growth has been somewhat unpredictable in it’s pace and that sort of thing and I think with land prices and material, that could slow, but I also don’t want the pie in the sky that this is what we are looking at when that is not what we are looking at in your original estimations. We need to be able to compare apples to apples and see you know so that your Council has the scenario that is the same as what they have been looking at and us too. But, that would be my idea. Speaker unknown: That’s what I think. Keller and us getting together over the next week to make sure that we are in the same (inaudible---------------------). McGowan: I was just going to ask relative to Meridian – you guys are going to come out with your master plan and are you guys going to be looking for DEQ to review when you are done? (Inaudible discussion) McGowan: Well, I guess why I am asking because I have got to fit it in the time schedule we are talking about here (inaudible--------------------------------------) consultant we have got just spread a little bit thin right now and we are pushing him and getting our priorities (inaudible------------------------------------------------). So, (inaudible---------) next month (inaudible-------------------------). Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 23 of 24 (Inaudible discussion) McGowan: Was there anything else in the discussion that we want to talk about before we talk a little bit about – I think we have already (inaudible) our next step. You guys are going to get together (inaudible-----------------) and talk. After those numbers are available to both the cities, I guess what are the next steps there? Obray: I don’t know if we need a meeting before Council’s meeting to discuss it, but I would assume that it would probably be best to have another meeting at this level and then take it back to the Council. De Weerd: We’ll provide Little Caesars. Obray: I guess I just want to make one more statement, so that I leave here on the same plan as everyone and that is the fact that as the City of Kuna right now we are going to proceed with whatever we are doing posthaste and at some point when we get those numbers we will reconsider our approach to the future, but as of today I am not going to stop where we are going in lieu of what is going on here until I know for sure that what’s going on here will work for the City of Kuna because I just don’t have the luxury. I wanted everyone to know that we are on the same level. That’s all I want to know. Speaker unknown: You have a process defined here as a parallel process (inaudible) go along and (inaudible) make a decision (inaudible----------------------). That kind of got everybody quiet. Bird: Mayor is this being development driven and do you have to get a bond or anything or go through a bond? Or do you have the financing in place for capital improvements? Obray: Nope. Well, we have some capital improvement money, but it will have to be a bond and it will have to be a cooperative effort from the community to make this work. Bird: How long does it take to run out a bond? Obray: Do you know, Jim? Keller: Your advertisement period is going to probably be 45 days, which is probably the quickest you could (inaudible----------------------). The thing that I think that everybody needs to understand is the city has been outreaching through the process for over a year and citizen’s advisory committee (inaudible) and decisions have been made, so it’s not like people are in the dark. They have been in this outreach program with citizen’s advisory committees and so forth now for over a year and they have been publicized, have been well attended and Meridian City Council & Kuna City Council Joint Meeting October 25, 2005 Page 24 of 24 so I think people are aware of what’s going on. But, it would take a minimum of (inaudible---------------). Obray: I know we still have to wait for a regular date that is set for elections for that kind of purpose, right? So, you are looking at February. McGowan: So, when we have a follow up meeting (inaudible) like it? Is this format what we want to do (inaudible) and a follow up meeting and then after that an analysis and sit down and just talk again with the numbers in front of us? De Weerd: (Inaudible---------------------------------------). McGowan: You are just speaking of your (inaudible) right? (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: Thank you. Obray: You are all welcome. De Weerd: We will provide the lunch next time. It’s real food. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / TAMMY DE WEERD, MAYOR DATE APPROVED ATTESTED: ___ WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK