HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 08-26Meridian City Council Meeting August 26, 2003
The Regular Meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:00 P.M.,
Tuesday, August 26, 2003, by Mayor Robert Corrie.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, William Nary, Keith Bird, Tammy de Weerd
and Cherie McCandless.
Others Present: Bill Nichols, Will Berg, Anna Powell, Gary Smith, Bill Musser, Ken
Bowers, Brad Watson, Reta Cunningham, Doug Strong, Stacy Kilchenmann, and Dean
Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
__X Tammy de Weerd _ X__ Bill Nary
__X Cherie McCandless __X Keith Bird
__X__ Robert Corrie
Corrie: All right. I will open the City Council regular meeting agenda on Tuesday,
August the 26th, 2003, at 7:00 o'clock in the City Council Chambers and I would ask the
Clerk for roll-call attendance, please.
Item 2: Adoption of the Agenda:
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Item two is the adoption of the agenda.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move that we adopt the agenda as published.
Nary: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to adopt the agenda as published. Any
further discussion?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Was there something you wanted to add? I just remembered that.
De Weerd: Yes. I would like to add an executive session per State Code 67-2345 (c).
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Corrie: C.
Bird: And you're adding that as Number12?
De Weerd: Yes.
Bird: Okay. I agree.
Nary: Concur.
Corrie: Okay. Any further discussion? Okay. All in favor say aye. Opposed no? All
ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 3: Consent Agenda:
A. Approve minutes of August 12, 2003 City Council Regular
Meeting:
B. Approve minutes of August 12, 2003 Pre-Council Meeting:
C. Approve minutes of August 19, 2003 City Council Regular
Meeting:
D. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law to Amend Conditions
of Approval: FP 03-038 Request to amend conditions of
approval on the final plat for Packard Acres No. 2 by the City of
Meridian – east of North Wingate Lane and south of East Ustick
Road:
E. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval: PP 03-
013 Request for Preliminary Plat of 5 building lots on 2.69 acres in
an L-O zone for Lynnwood Plaza Subdivision by Centennial
Development, LLC – east of North Ten Mile Road on West Cherry
Lane:
F. Change Order No. 4 for Meridian Settlers Park Restrooms:
G. Change Order No. 5 for Meridian Settlers Park Restrooms:
H. Approve Agreement for Professional Services for ZGA
Architects for Meridian Municipal Center Program Update:
I. Approve / Award Bid for Drilling and Construction of Well No.
25:
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J. Finance Report:
Corrie: Item Number three is the Consent Agenda.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we approve the Consent Agenda and that the Mayor sign and the Clerk
attest to all paper that are necessary.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to accept the Consent Agenda as
published. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Berg: Roll-call vote. Bird.
Bird: Yea.
Berg: McCandless.
McCandless: Yea.
Berg: de Weerd.
De Weerd: Yea.
Berg: Nary.
Nary: Are we voting on the Consent Agenda or on the agenda itself?
De Weerd: Consent.
Berg: Consent Agenda was the motion to adopt the Consent Agenda.
Nary: Oh, yeah. All right. I missed that. I'm sorry. I guess I see an error in Packard
Estates No. 2, so I guess I would vote nay, because I think they are in error.
De Weerd: Good place to bring it up.
Nary: I didn't know -- I missed what we were -- I thought we were voting on the agenda
itself, not the Consent Agenda. I can bring it -- I can bring it when we are done. We
can bring it back. But there is an error. That's not what we decided, so --
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August 26, 2003
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Corrie: Well, let's --
Bird: Well, that can be -- that can be done by pulling the minutes and finding out what
the motion and stuff was. We can pull -- we can certainly pull the deal. We have
already got three votes for yea.
Corrie: You want to do it now or --
Nary: I don't care.
Corrie: Okay. Let's do it now.
Bird: Let's do it now. I'll pull my -- I'll pull my motion.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: Okay. What's the matter?
Nary: On D on the findings we did not -- at least my recollection of the minutes, we did
not remove the condition or consider it to impossible to enforce about the prohibition
against construction traffic. What we -- what Mr. Groves testified to was they were
doing all they could and they would continue to do that, because they were required to
do it. The only thing we removed was the condition regarding the condition of the lane
at the time -- to put the lane back in repair in the condition it was at the time the plat
was approved. That was the only condition. So, these findings are incorrect, because
that isn't what we decided.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this is certainly my interpretation of what
the motion was. If I'm incorrect, I would ask that the Council simply pull that set of
findings or -- that's in your approval on the Consent Agenda, remand it back for further
consideration. It's not like anything is -- I mean we --
Nary: Right. It's not a timing issue. We can do it next week, but I think we just need to
look at the minutes, but that's -- my recollection that was not what we decided, the
second condition, because they did commit to doing that and they continue to -- and
they committed to continue to do that, so --
Nichols: Well, Mr. Mayor, just by way of explanation, I was looking at it from what the
city could do as a plat condition, not what the developer could do, so I could have
looked at it in error.
Nary: Sure.
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Bird: Okay. Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Okay. I will change my motion, then. We will pull Item D on the Consent Agenda,
the Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law to amend conditions of approval FP 03-
038, for Packard Acres No. 2, back to the attorney for correct findings or at least to look
into it and then with everything else on the Consent Agenda, I would move that we
approve and for the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest on the proper papers.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Okay.
Nary: Sorry.
Corrie: That's all right. We can get it right.
Berg: Get it right this time.
Corrie: Yeah. We will get it -- and it will be back on the 2nd.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. All ayes. Motion is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 4: Department Reports
A. Mayor’s Office:
1. Appointment of Bill Musser as Chief of Police:
Corrie: Item four, Department Reports. Mayor's office. At this time I would like to
recommend to the Council that we -- that you accept my nomination for Chief of Police
to be a permanent position given to Mr. Bill Musser, effective tonight on your vote.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Does he want it?
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Corrie: I think he does. The last we talked, Bill, we had quite a discussion about that,
but he did want it and his troops do, too.
De Weerd: Well, I would move to accept your appointment for Bill Musser as our new
Chief of Police.
Bird: And I would second it.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded that Bill Musser become the
permanent Chief of Police for the City of Meridian and any further discussion? Hearing
none, all those in favor say aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: Okay. Now, Bill, if you will come up I will do the honors here and we will make
you the official -- Bill, he is much bigger than I, so he's going to really -- this is the
appointment of the Police Chief of Meridian. I, Robert Corrie, Mayor of the City of
Meridian, Idaho, do hereby appoint William (Bill) Musser as Chief of Police for the City
of Meridian and require that he take the subscribed and official oath complying with
Idaho Code 50-204, and, Bill, if you will raise your right hand and repeat after me. I, Bill
Musser.
Musser: I, Bill Musser.
Corrie: Do solemnly swear.
Musser: Do solemnly swear.
Corrie: Or affirm.
Musser: Or affirm.
Corrie: That I will support the Constitution of the United States.
Musser: That I will support the Constitution of the United States.
Corrie: And the law of this state.
Musser: And the laws of this state.
Corrie: And will abide by the law enforcement code of ethics.
Musser: And will abide by the law enforcement code of ethics.
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Corrie: That I will faithfully discharge all the duties of this position.
Musser: That I will faithfully discharge all the duties of this position.
Corrie: Of the Chief of Police for the City of Meridian, Idaho.
Musser: Of the Chief of Police for the City of Meridian, Idaho.
Corrie: To the best of my ability.
Musser: To the best of my ability.
Corrie: So help me God.
Musser: So help me God.
Corrie: He doesn't really want to say anything, but he's sure welcome to. Bill.
Musser: Well, I'd just like to thank my family members and close friends and also Chief
Homer and Deputy Chief Tim Henson from over at the Nampa Police Department for
coming in tonight and being here to support me on this and, again, to all the members
of the Council as well. Thank you very much for your support and your consideration
and for the approval of me being the Chief of Police for the City of Meridian. Thank
you.
B. Parks Department:
1. Approve / Award Bid for Bear Creek Park Restrooms:
Corrie: Okay. No. B on Department Reports, Parks Department. First off, let me thank
everybody for showing up for Bill. He really appreciates that and I think he's going to
make a great Chief of Police. Thank you. Parks. I believe we approved the bid for
Bear Creek Park restrooms and, if I'm not mistaken, we have a letter on that one.
Strong: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I believe Bill Nichols is going to explain this
item from a legal standpoint.
De Weerd: Oh, good. I look forward to that.
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Strong: I’ll stand down.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, after the bid opening there was a protest
with regard to the lowest bid. There was a subsequent determination by the architects
that there may be a problem with the second lowest bid and so I -- you have in front of
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August 26, 2003
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you my recommendation as to what you should do, but it's, essentially, my
recommendation that you schedule a hearing for the second lowest bid and the third
lowest bid to present their arguments to you as to whether or not the second bid is
correct or whether it's void or not void and then, after that matter has been presented,
that you decide the issue and, then, you decide whether you're going to accept a bid or
reject all bids. The other option I didn't put in there, but you certainly have that option,
is you can reject all bids tonight if you chose to do that.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: This is getting to be out of hand on -- and I don't know why we have so much
problem with our public bids, but we don't -- I don't know why we have halfway bids sent
in and stuff. I personally, as a Councilman, even though to me if the -- the second bid
that was the specialty license numbers, which is just the same as the Public Works
license numbers for specialty contractors, to have the license number and you don't list
it, well, the third bid, even though they are high, and -- on the base bids, but they are a
little low on the -- alternate number one had everything listed -- in the 41 years that I
was in construction with the bidding deal, if you didn't have them filled out you didn't get
the jobs and I, for one, as one Councilman, would have given it to the person that's got
the right deal, if he's the third person on the bid, I'm for giving him the contract and the
other ones -- I hate to say this, but they will learn to fill out the bids right and we don't
turn those forms -- we don't give those forms out to just look at.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: What was the estimate for this project, the cost estimate?
Nary: Do you mean what was budgeted?
De Weerd: Yes.
Corrie: What was budgeted?
Strong: I don't recall the cost estimate for this project. We -- just to clarify, in the first
round of bids we went back to the architect and actually took some things out of the
plans to reduce some of the cost in this project and some of the bids came back
actually higher than the first round, which we didn't understand how, when we were
trying to reduce some of the cost in the project, that we would actually get higher bids
than the first round. So, we were hoping to build this particular building for somewhere
between 110 and 115 -- 110,000, 115,000. The architect I don't believe ever gave us a
hard figure for the cost of constructing the building.
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Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Doug, don't we have money budgeted in the budget for this project and it's a
certain amount?
Strong: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Nary, we do -- we would have to move some funds
to fund the higher bid that we have received, which we have some flexibility in that
account. We have used some money out of Bear Creek for some other -- like fill-in in
softball fields and things like that that we need to get with Stacy and move some money
around, probably, if we accept the higher bid.
Nary: I guess my concern is why are we -- I guess I'm not sure why we are having this
discussion. I mean if we have 115 -- or 110 or 115 thousand dollars budgeted for this,
unless you -- we can't accept the bids, because, one, at least what we are being told by
our counsel is that the only bid within that budgetary amount we have to reject as void,
the other two aren't within that budgetary amount and we haven't authorized anybody to
spend more than that. So, I'm not sure why we are even -- we should be rejecting
these bids, because it doesn't meet the budget we have set, unless you come back and
ask for something else. Otherwise, we will end up like we argued about in that
AspireOn contract in accepting a bid for something that we didn't the money budgeted
for. So, we should be rejecting these bids because it doesn't meet your budget. Am I
the only one that thinks that or -- it doesn't make any sense to me.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I don't think you're the only one that thinks that. I don't think the city
should suffer because we have to take the highest bid, which is considerably higher
than the others, just because they did it right and the others did it wrong. If that were
the case, I would go to refuse all bids and, then, rebid it.
De Weerd: Is that a motion?
Corrie: Are you making a motion?
McCandless: I will make it a motion.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made. Do I hear a second?
Nary: Second.
De Weerd: Second.
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Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to reject all bids. Is there any further
discussion?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I don't -- I don't know -- it seems like -- it seems like for us to get a -- unless we
have a construction manager, which we seem to have like on the Police Department
building or something, but these are not big enough to have something like that -- it
seems like we have a real problem of getting bids properly turned into the city of
Meridian where other people -- you know, the School District certainly don't that have
that problem. I don't know where it's coming from, whether it's coming from our specs
not being clear or -- I don't know, but it's something we need to look into. It seems like
we -- in the Parks Department in particular, we are turning down -- we are bidding jobs
four and five times to get a job done. The budgetary item is -- is a real problem. I don't
like going over it either, but you got to -- you got to -- I haven't seen a building yet that
hasn't went over, except the one we use construction management on for the police.
Every one of your fire buildings had went over with change orders, every one of the
parks restrooms -- we had two change orders on the Settler Park in the Consent
Agenda today -- something's wrong in our bidding process and I don't know what it is,
but it's getting -- when you have to have three and four bids to get your building built,
something's wrong.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I think the last time this happened we asked that Public Works maybe look
over what we are requesting and -- because it doesn't seem like we have this kind of
issue in Publics Works.
Bird: Oh, yes, we do.
De Weerd: Do we? No.
Bird: We have had some bad --
De Weerd: But we -- I don't know if it's their instructions are not clear enough, but we
need to take a look at them and see if they are. If they are, just go with them and hope
that the rules are followed, but you can't baby-sit them.
Corrie: Further discussion?
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
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Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: This isn't necessarily just directed at you, Doug, but I mean we had a discussion
a few months ago -- I think before you were even here -- about basically accepting bids
on projects that exceed what we budgeted for the project, without having that
discussion about where is the coming going to come from, is it going to get funded,
whether or not we needed to have a policy to that effect, whether or not we needed to
at least have some percentage as a guideline, because I agree with Mr. Bird, I mean
there certainly are unforeseen circumstances that we may budget something and there
may be some cost that exceeds that and we can live with a certain percentage amount
that probably makes some sense that we may have underestimated, but I think we may
need to -- you know, at least need to think about that again in the future, but that just
concerns me when we have a certain amount budgeted and now we have the potential
of accepting a bid that was ten or 15 thousand dollars more than we anticipated, we
may find the money later, but I don't want to find the money later, I want to find the
money before we do it and decide that we are willing to go higher or we underestimated
the amount for whatever reason or the market doesn't really bear what we thought it
would be and it's higher and that's a reasonable amount -- we went through this with the
skate park a lot again before you were here, so it's not meant as a criticism to you,
Doug, or anything, I just -- I think we need to have that discussion, so we are all clear
up here exactly what our expectations are, so that when you go forward you know what
the expectations are.
Strong: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Nary, just to clarify, we are not -- from the Parks
Department, we are not recommending the higher bid.
Nary: Oh, I know.
Strong: What's before you tonight is a legal issue of whether we have responsive bids
or not. We are making no recommendation to accept bids tonight. If we are in a
position where we have to accept the higher bid, our recommendation would be to
refuse all bids, just to clarify. We are not -- from our department -- or from our attorney
recommending that necessarily that we accept the higher bid, we are looking for an
answer whether -- the legal challenge has been put forward here whether we feel that
we have a lower bid that's responsive or the only option we have is the higher bid,
which is out of our budget.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: It looks to me like all these things are just -- they are their own errors. There
was -- on the wrong form and they failed to list the state specialty license and numbers.
I mean that's errors that they are making, not we are making. Mr. Bird.
Bird: Yeah. Doug, a couple questions. The architect never gave you any estimate on
the job at all?
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Strong: Not that I recall.
Bird: Who is the architect on this particular job?
Strong: Cole and Associates.
Bird: Okay. The second one is -- we went back and rebid this, took some stuff out, and
our bids come in higher. We are going to go do the same thing, so we can get down
within the budget?
Strong: My recommendation would be not to rebid it, that we actually do a construction
management project in this case.
Bird: With our employees being the construction manager?
Strong: That's what we would have to look at, I think.
Bird: Have we got anybody that's capable of construction management? It's a major
job. Kids will go to school for four years and a lot of experience to get that. I would not
-- I would not recommend anybody within our department that is capable of putting up a
building with that -- of that kind of construction management, that deal. If you want to
look into a company, I would be in favor of that, but I don't think you're going to find
anybody for a hundred thousand dollar job.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, the only person that can be a construction
manager is one that holds the appropriate certificate or license as a construction
manager, so even if a city employee were to work on a project or try to coordinate
things, it couldn't be as a construction manager, it would have to be a project
superintendent or some other type of scope of things, but not as a construction
manager, because that's a specific term and a specific scope of duties are set out in
state statute.
Corrie: Any further discussion?
Bird: That's the question.
Corrie: All right. The question has been called for. The motion is to reject all bids at
this time. Roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Motion to reject all bids approved. Thank you, Doug.
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MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: (Items Moved from Consent Agenda)
Corrie: Item No. 5 is removed from the Consent Agenda. We have done that.
Item 6: Resolution No. : Adopting Skate Park and
Park Shelter Rules:
Corrie: Item 6 is a resolution. I believe we need some numbers here. Adopting the
skate park and park shelter. First resolution number is 03-408. So, I would like to have
the Clerk read it by title only at this time.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Resolution No. 03-408, a
resolution of the Mayor and City Council of the City of Meridian provide for findings and
to establish skate park rules and park shelter rules under the park regulation codes at
Chapter 13, Title 2, for the Parks and Recreation Department for the City of Meridian
and providing an effective date.
Corrie: Okay. You have heard the reading of the Resolution No. 03-408. Is there
anyone from the audience that would like to have the entire resolution read? Okay. I
would entertain a motion on the Resolution No. 03-408.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we adopt Resolution No. 03-407, adopting the state -- or skate park
and park shelter rules and ask the Mayor to sign and Clerk attest.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to accept the -- adopt the skate park and
park shelter rules under Resolution No. 03-408. Any further discussion?
Bird: You said number 7.
Corrie: Roll-call, please, Mr. Berg.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Yes. I'm sorry.
Bird: Which is it, 408 or 407?
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De Weerd: 408.
Corrie: 408.
Bird: That's what I thought, because -- well, I think if you go back, I think she --
Nary: She said 407.
Bird: She said 407. She changed it. Okay.
Corrie: I said 03-408.
Bird: Okay.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Berg.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 7: Resolution No. : Adopting Comprehensive
Parks and Recreation System Plan:
Corrie: Resolution -- No. 7. Resolution No. 03-409, is adopting the Comprehensive
Parks and Recreation System Plan. At this time I'd like to have the City Clerk read the
Resolution No. 03-409 by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Resolution No. 03-409, a
resolution of the Mayor and City Council of the City of Meridian to provide for findings
and to establish the adoption of the Comprehensive Parks and Recreation System
Plan, Action Plan, dated August 2003, as an Action Plan document for the City of
Meridian and providing an effective date.
Corrie: Okay. Is there anyone from the audience that would like to have Resolution No.
03-409 read in its entirety? Hearing none, I will entertain a motion.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I would move that we approve Resolution 03-409, the adopting of the
Comprehensive Parks and Recreation System Plan.
De Weerd: Second.
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Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded to accept the Comprehensive
Parks and Recreation System Plan, Resolution No. 03-409. Any further discussion?
Hearing none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion on the resolution is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 8: Ordinance No. : Repealing Chapter 7 Title 8
Parks Regulations:
Corrie: No. 8 is an Ordinance No. 03-1038, repealing Chapter 7, Title 8, Parks
Resolutions. I would like to have the City Clerk read the title of the ordinance only.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance No. 03-1038, an
ordinance of the City of Meridian, Idaho, repealing Chapter 7, Title 8, Park Regulations
of the Meridian City Code, providing for severability, conflict, savings clause, and
providing an effective date.
Corrie: Okay. You have heard the reading of the Ordinance No. 03-1038. Is there
anyone from the audience that would like to have it read in its entirety? Hearing none,
I'll entertain a motion on Ordinance No. 03-1038.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I had a discussion.
Corrie: Oh. Okay. Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I move that we approve Ordinance No. 03-1038, repealing Chapter 7,
Title 8, Park Regulations, with suspension of rules.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made seconded. Any discussion? Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, I guess I'm curious from Mr. Nichols. In looking at the sections we are
repealing, they don't -- they are not in conflict with the rules that we just passed, so I'm
not sure why we are repealing it and I guess I don't recall the discussion -- and maybe I
just can't remember it, but --
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Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this is probably, in two years, the first time
that I haven't run it passed you before we put it out, but the reason has to do with the
codifiers have identified this as duplication to the new one that we passed -- that you
passed --
Nary: Oh. I got it.
Nichols: -- and, therefore, in order to clean up the code, it's best to just repeal this
altogether. We have repealed one part of it, we really need to repeal all of it in order to
clean up that section. You will notice that the effective date is the same date that the
new park regulation ordinance becomes effective and that's why it's designed that way,
so --
Nary: I -- now I got it, Bill. Thank you. Appreciate that.
Corrie: Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Okay. Ordinance 03-1038, repealing Parks regulations is approved.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 9: Resolution No. : Adopting Fire Department
Plan Review and Inspection Fees:
Corrie: No. 9 is a Resolution No. 03-410, adopting Fire Department Plan Reviews and
Inspection Fees. At this time I would like to have the City Clerk read it by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Resolution No. 03-410, a
resolution of the City Council of the City of Meridian making certain findings and
adopting a schedule of inspection fees for the services for the Meridian Fire Department
for the City of Meridian.
Corrie: Okay. You have heard the reading of Resolution No. 410, adopting the Fire
Department Plan Review and Inspection Fees. Is there anyone from the public that
would like to have this read in its entirety? Hearing none, I will entertain a motion on
Resolution No. 03-410.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we approve Resolution No. 03-410, adopting the Fire Department
Plan Review and Inspection Fees and ask the Mayor to sign and Clerk attest.
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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Bird: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded for Resolution No. 03-410, adopting the
Fire Department Plan Review and Inspection Fees. Any further discussion? Hearing
none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: Okay. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 10: Ordinance No. : Adopting the 2000 Edition
International Fire Code:
Corrie: Item No. 10 is an Ordinance No. 03-1039, adopting the 2000 Edition of the
International Fire Code. At this time I would like to have the City Clerk read Ordinance
No. 03-1039 by title only.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Ordinance No. 03-1039, an
ordinance of the City of Meridian, Idaho, adopting 2000 Edition of the International Fire
Code regulating and governing the safeguard of life and property from fire and
explosion hazards arising from the storage, handling, and use of hazardous
substances, materials, and devices from conditions hazardous to life or property in the
occupancy of buildings and premises in the City of Meridian, Idaho, providing the
issuance of permits for hazardous uses or operations, repealing Ordinance No. 807 of
the Meridian -- City of Meridian, Idaho, an other ordinances and parts of the ordinances
in conflict therewith and providing an effective date.
Corrie: Okay. The audience has heard the reading of the Ordinance No. 03-1039. Is
there anyone from the audience that would like to have it read in its entirety? Hearing
none, I'll entertain a motion on the Ordinance 1039.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I move we approve Ordinance 03-1039, adopting the 2000 Edition of the
International Fire Code, with suspension of rules.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Further discussion? Hearing none, roll-
call vote, Mr. Berg.
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
Page 18 of 49
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, nay.
Corrie: Three ayes, one nay. All right.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. ONE NAY.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, in preparing some materials last week, I
found some outdated references in the existing code to the Uniform Building Code and
the Uniform Fire Code and so I will be presenting another clean-up ordinance to you to
get those taken care of. I just want you to know that's coming, so that they will correctly
reflect the codes.
Item 11: Public Hearing on 2003 / 2004 Fiscal Year Budget:
Corrie: All right. Thank you, Mr. Nichols. Item No. 11 is a Public Hearing on 2003-2004
Fiscal Year Budget. So, at this time I will open the Public Hearing and invite Stacy to
start first.
Kilchenmann: Okay. This will be quick and painless, I promise. The show stopper
event that everyone's been waiting for. I'll start the hearing with just kind of a reminder
of what has driven the things that you have accepted as a Council as enhancements
and that is our growth in housing and population. This is taken from data prepared by
Intermountain Demographics and it just kind of shows the steady increase in the
number of -- total number of housing units in Meridian, as well as the population as
actual compared to projected through 2020, and when -- as we go through the graph
and we look at growth, we will see that same shame is going to be repeated in almost
every statistic we look at. This is just looking at our residential building permits from
'99, 2000, and 2001, 2002, and, then, year to date. Our most recent data for the end of
July of this year and you can see already this year we have exceeded the prior years,
so currently nothing is slowing down. I'm going to start out and talk about the General
Fund. Our budgeted revenue of approximately 12.4 million dollars and, as we know,
most of that comes from property tax, with the next biggest share of the pie our state
revenue sharing. This graph looks at how our base budget has grown, so the bottom
column, the light blue, is the base budget for starting in 2002, which was the first year
we adopted this form of budgeting. The discretionary revenue is the yellow piece of the
graph of the bar, with impact fees being the red and, then, a little slice of grant revenue
on the top. So, it shows how the base has steadily increased each year and I'm going
to come back to that 2005 bar -- I'm going to come back to this graph and explain the
relevance of that. That's kind of where we started. This is where we went with that
discretionary revenue. In administration we appropriated -- or we are looking at
tentative approval of approximately 363,000 dollars worth of enhancements. That
includes the laser fiche upgrade. The Meridian Development Corporation, which will be
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August 26, 2003
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repaid, so that's also reflected in our revenue, and ten thousand dollars to the Senior
Citizens Center for Sage membership dues. We have in the -- actually, for our merit we
have put that all under the Council to be looked at in January, so this is the amount. We
tentatively have appropriated about 215,000 dollars and a parking lot at Centennial
Park and, then, capital replacements, which is just one -- replacing one computer. For
the police department we are looking at close to 700,000 dollars, which includes three
patrol officers for a full year, three patrol officers for a quarter year, a school resource
officer, a crime prevention officer, a school resource officer for the elementary and, then,
just a records cabinet, some adjustment of sergeant and lieutenant wages and capital
replacement items. There also is some grant money that is also reflected in the
revenue, and then, for the fire department, approximately 417,000 dollars to include a
thermal imaging unit, an engine for Station Three, which is mostly paid out of the fire
truck fund, which is a savings fund we have been accumulating, a part-time office
assistant and some mobile data terminals, and for the parks department we are looking
at approximately half a million dollars. However, the items that are black and not
italicized are those will be paid out of the General Fund. All of the rest of those items
will be paid out of the park impact fees. We have Kiwanis Park, Adventure Island,
Settler's Park, Lochsa Falls, Parkstone Park design fees, Autumn Falls, and Borup
property purchase, and then we have a grounds keeper, which will be funded through
the General Fund and a capital replacement, which will be funded through the General
Fund. This slide shows not just what the cost will be next year, but annualized cost of
the FY04 enhancements, so this is a dollar amount that will be permanently added to
the FY05 base. That's kind of right off the get go that will be what we will start with in
'05 and it totals approximately 810,000 dollars. So, if we go back to this slide and we
look at the estimated FY2005 base, that's where we know we are now and that's before
we -- just the items that we looked at that we approved this year will not be mandatory
increases to the base. I mean other items like rent increases, fuel increases, power
increases, that will also have to be factored in there. This is just a comparison of what
the General Fund has looked like by department, with the yellow being administration,
the blue being police, red fire and green parks and it just kind of shows the growth from
1999 through the budget that we are looking at approving tonight. And, see, it looks
just like the population graph. Then, this is the same type of graph for capital outlay. It
shows what we have actually spent in each year with the budget for this year and next
year. Again by department. The Enterprise Fund, we have approximately 12.4 million
dollars in revenue, with the big chunks coming from sewer and water sales and followed
by sewer and water connection fees. For the Water Department, enhancements total
about 3.5 million dollars. It includes a work person, a part-time service coordinator, well
development, consulting for risk assessment, various just small capital outlay items and
the big item, a water main construction replacement -- replacements and, then, the
same type of employee incentive money to be basically under the control of Council
and not to be spent until at least January. For the Wastewater we have an all-time
record of 11.4 million dollars, to include two employees -- the big item is the Black Cat
Trunk Line for six million dollars, plant improvements of 3.2 million dollars, the North
Slough Trunk sewer line installation, again, the same employee incentive money that's
under the control of Council, consulting fees, and, then, other various smaller items.
For public works we have the addition of two water field inspectors, up the total of
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August 26, 2003
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approximately 300,000 dollars. A geographic information system, some money for
warranty TB inspections, miscellaneous office and technology improvements and
capital replacement item, which is a computer. The Utility Billing Department we have a
replacement item for a serving and a replacement for a computer. So, if we look at the
Enterprise Fund and we look at the last three years -- or the last two years and look at
this year, you can see for the first time we have now gone into the fund balance with
that bright purple line being the fund balance. 2002, 2003, there was actually an
excess of revenue over expenditures, so we were able to increase the fund balance,
but now we are taking a fairly significant dip into the fund balance and I highlight that,
because I think from this point on it's going to be very crucial to carefully plan our cash
flow and really spend a lot of time looking at the fees and -- the we are charging and,
you know, how our cash is going to flow and what the capital construction plan is going
to look like. This just shows the same kind of thing as the graph I showed for the
General Fund, it shows the department base for Enterprise Fund, you can see it's that
same staircase up, with the top -- the brown being the Wastewater Treatment Plant, the
blue the water, MUBS, a little slice in there, and Public Works. And this is how the
capital outlay looks. You can see the jump that we have taken in 2004. This graph
shows -- compares what we have budgeted each year to what we have actually gotten
done, so that has helped the fund balance, because we have not been actually
spending what we have budgeted and you can see it more in the Wastewater
Treatment Plant, with the black being what we have budgeted and compared to the
bright yellow what we have actually spent. So, that'd kind of helped us -- it's helped our
cash position, but if we actually do start spending some of the money, then, that could
change, and finally, the Special Services Revenue. We are looking at about two million
dollars, with the biggest chunk by far of that coming from building permits revenue and,
then, the next chunk from Planning and Zoning fees. You can see we have added that -
- the fire inspection fees have been added to the Special Services Fund revenue.
That's a new item for this year. The Building Department, the program enhancement,
the big thing here is a transfer of inspector contract money from operations to
personnel, which means no longer contracting for building inspections, but hiring two
employees. So, you see we are moving -- decreasing it by 250,000 dollars and, then,
adding in personnel about 156 thousand dollars for two employees, a building official
and an inspector. We have also added the fire inspector contract cost, which offsets
against the fees. Then, again, that employee incentive money under the control of
Council and some capital replacements. For Planning and Zoning we just have some
replacement capital and, then, the -- again, employee incentive money under the
control of Council. This is what the Special Services Fund look like, if you compare
where the revenue comes from and where the expenses are. You can see the bright
yellow is the Building Department. So, obviously, they are the vast majority of revenue
on the revenue side in Planning and Zoning. And, then, if you -- the bar on the right are
how the expenses would be distributed, so we have also moved street lighting to the
special services fund. The blue is the capital improvement fund transfer, so that's the
excess of revenue over expenditures that we moved to capital improvement plan that
can be used for General Fund capital projects. The code enforcement is just a tiny little
line, and then, planning and zoning. This is just an interesting pie graph, because the
top category -- the General Fund and Enterprise Fund are almost the same size exactly,
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August 26, 2003
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but on the General Fund side, most of our money is in personnel, as compared to the
Enterprise Fund where most of our money is in capital outlays. So, I just thought that
was like an interesting accounting kind of graph. And that's all I have. Are there any
questions?
Corrie: Council, any questions of --
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: All right. Thank you, Stacy. This is a Public Hearing on the 2003-4 Fiscal Year
Budget. You have seen the -- what we have done here. With the Public Hearing we
would like to hear from the public if you have any questions or any comments. So -- did
we have a sign-up sheet or -- we didn't, did we? That's all right. We can -- okay. This
is a Public Hearing, so who would like to speak. Daunt. Is the testimony you are about
to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Whitman: Every time.
Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please.
Whitman: Do I need to --
Corrie: Yeah.
Whitman: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I wanted to take this opportunity to talk
to you again. I know I spoke to you briefly at a --
Nary: Name and address.
Whitman: Oh. My name is Daunt Whitman, I'm the current contract building official with
the City of Meridian. I live at 284 Oakhurst Way in Boise.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? I'm sorry, Daunt, but I always like to hide behind the lectern.
Would you like that in front of you, so you don't feel so vulnerable?
Corrie: That's up to you.
De Weerd: We can just move that right over. I see you have papers. You can set that
on there.
Nary: She said we. She meant you.
De Weerd: Will can just move that on over.
Whitman: Thank you. That's the same we my dad used when the lawn needed to be
mowed. Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I wanted to talk to you again. I didn't
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August 26, 2003
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really have an opportunity to prepare anything at the original budget hearing and I
wanted to be able to give you some information that I don't think you really got in the
budget that was proposed to you. In the proposed budget they basically are replacing
two bodies with two bodies. I have been aware that this was in the works and, in reality,
to be doing our job in a more timely fashion than we are currently, we need to have an
additional inspector now. I have been reluctant to take on any additional help at this
point, just because of the uncertainty of my situation right now. This year we -- well,
current to yesterday we have been doing approximately 34 inspections a day, myself
and Steve Pearson, who subcontracts from me. And, then, we have had one period
where we were busy enough that we had someone coming in part time during the day
to help do some of those inspections, so I don't -- I don't believe that -- in looking at two
staff employee positions that you're going to accomplish the same work load that we
have been accomplishing as contractors, simply because we have -- you know,
obviously, we have a financial incentive to produce more, to work longer hours if need
be to get the day's work done. The contractors, in paying their fees, expect their
inspections in a timely manner and if they -- you know, they don't seem to mind if the
inspection gets done at 6:00 in the evening, if that's what it takes to get it done that day.
In the previous meeting Councilman Bird, I think, mentioned the concern that I would -- I
could at some point just decide to pull out and move onto something else and leaving
the city in a bad situation and I can appreciate that to a point, but, as a contract
employee, I have a contract with the city indicating I have to give at least 30 days notice
prior to that and we could adjust that accordingly, you know, if the city wanted more time
-- if I wanted more time. But as an employee, if you were to hire a staff employee, they
could simply call in on the weekend and say I had enough, I'm not coming in, and they
would be leaving you in a bad situation. If I was to do that, you would have, you know,
legal recourse for a breach of contract. In my being a contractor with the city, I carry
liability insurance, which is basically an added layer of liability insurance that -- in case
of something that is missed or someone -- you know, a problem arises with a project.
Noticing in the budget there wasn't anything plugged into the budget for any outside
plan review that I currently do. I contract -- or I don't contract, I just have an outside
service that does my commercial plan review and out of the portion of the fees that I
collect from the city I pay that individual to do that service and so I'm assuming from
that not being a budgeted item, that that would be part of the duty of the building official
you're hiring and along with that, he would be doing all the residential plan review that I
currently do and by doing the commercial and residential plan review, it appears that
you would expect that eight hour employee to be doing all of the inspections, where
currently I'm doing part of the inspections, because, simply, one person can't get that
many places in one day. I have done a little bit of checking with other surrounding
areas and kind of comparing average salaries to what you're proposing in this budget,
so that -- and it appears to me that the budget number that you have proposed are low,
so that, there again, the picture that you're looking at is not necessarily the picture that
is accurate, so -- and I just -- I wanted to point some of these things out. In preparing
the budget there weren't any questions asked of me as far as what kind of workload we
are dealing with, how many hours a day we are putting into how many inspections are
being done in a day. So, I just -- I didn't feel as if the Council had been shown an
accurate picture and wanted to find out some of those discrepancies and maybe let it
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August 26, 2003
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be food for thought. In conclusion I have enjoyed working with the City of Meridian, I
would enjoy continuing to work with the City of Meridian. I think it's been a mutually
beneficial scenario. I think we have looked at a lot of growth and, yet, the building
department appears to be the one department that hasn't grown at all. I think the last
time that the city increased the building permit fees was approximately eight years ago
and at that point planning and zone was one person and currently I think there are
seven individuals, so the building department is still the two and a half -- two full-time,
one part-time individuals in the front office and, then, the two of us doing inspection and
plan reviews, so -- and as I indicated, if it was decided that you were willing to continue
contracting, I would have another inspector in very short order, because we are getting
a little tired of having to put in the long days, so I thank you for your time.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Thank you. Stay up here a minute. Mr. Bird.
Bird: I have got some questions for Daunt.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: Daunt, you say you got yourself two inspectors now?
Whitman: No.
Bird: One.
Whitman: Just one.
Bird: Okay. How many towns do you do besides Meridian?
Whitman: I also currently contract with the City of Middleton and the City of Star.
Bird: Okay. What percentage of -- I know both of those towns are growing pretty good.
Not nothing like Meridian, but what percentage of your business would be through
Middleton and Star?
Whitman: Oh, well, time spent I'm going to say I typically am spending an hour and a
half to two in Middleton and about an hour, hour and a half in Star.
Bird: Do they supply your computers all your secretarial work and stuff like the City of
Meridian does in their contract?
Whitman: Well, they are using handwritten permits and they are providing secretarial
as far as people answering the phones, taking inspections, but --
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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Bird: You don't pay any money back like our -- like our Sanitary Services does to MUBS
every months for booking and stuff like that?
Whitman: No.
Bird: Okay. And don't get me wrong, I have been an advocate of private industry all my
life and stuff and -- been an advocate of private industry, but I think there is -- I think
there is something at this point in time that we need to take a look at. As I -- as I can
think -- and I'm might be wrong, Middleton, Star, Meridian -- and I don't know if Kuna
has their own inspectors or if they hire out. I think they have their own inspectors, don't
they? Or do you do Kuna, too?
Whitman: Oh, no. No.
Bird: Okay.
Whitman: They -- I think they have their own, partly because of the problems that arose
with the IRS, because they were paying an individual whereas other cities were paying
corporations to do the contracting.
Bird: But in the valley I believe that's the only ones that do subcontract out their --
Whitman: I think Homedale, Parma, some of those outlaying areas are all contract.
Bird: They are all contracting out?
Whitman: Small communities. Yeah.
Bird: Okay. And I can understand that. Okay. That's all I have. Thanks, Daunt.
Corrie: Thank you.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Whitman?
Corrie: Daunt. Don't walk away.
Nary: Could you talk a little bit -- I notice in looking at the budget numbers, you know,
they basically are transferring 250,000 dollars and, basically, the budget amount is
165,000 dollars, so it's a fairly significant difference in cost and I think partly what I
heard you say is that maybe that's not incorporating all the costs that it may cost the city
back, the 165. Did I misunderstand that or --
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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Whitman: Well, if 165 was inclusive of two employees.
Nary: Right.
Whitman: And I just -- I am not going to believe that two employees are going to be
able to accomplish the needs of the Building Department and I certainly don't want to
speak ill of a city employee, because they are a lot of great city employees, but if having
employees was the most cost effective way of accomplishing a task, there wouldn't be
so many subcontractors out there building all these houses that we are inspecting,
because Lord knows the contractor is going to squeeze the dollar as hard as anyone.
But they -- and they are subcontracting simply because it decreases their overhead, so
that it can increase their profits.
Nary: Thank you.
Whitman: Anyone else?
Corrie: You can sit down now. Thank you. Kelly. Oh, that's all right. Go ahead and
come up here. Raise your right hand, please. Is the testimony you are about to give
the Council the truth, so help you God?
Centers: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. Your name and address please.
Centers: My name is Jake Centers. Address is 2011 Locust Grove. Mayor, Members
of the Council, again, my name is Jack Centers, I'm the owner of Tahoe Homes, a
residential building company here in Meridian, and I would just like to express my deep
concern about changing the current structure of Meridian's Building Department.
Meridian City is currently, by far, the most efficient Building Department in the region.
We have done a lot of building in Boise City, Ada County, and both those jurisdictions
require at least 24 hour notices for advance notice to get an inspection done and Mr.
Whitman and his staff can accomplish that in four hours notice. So, there is a drastic
difference between those jurisdictions and Boise City and Ada County both take about
two to three weeks to complete a building plan review. Meridian City usually has it out
within one week. I feel fortunate to get a return phone call from the City of Boise within
48 hours. I can get a call back by the end of the day with Meridian City. So, you know,
one would think that, wow, Meridian City has a lot bigger staff than those other
jurisdictions. Well, that's hardly the case. I pulled together some statistics from last
year. Boise City issued almost 1,400 residential building permits. They have three plan
reviewers and six residential building inspectors. Ada County issued 800 permits. They
have two plan reviewers and three residential building inspectors. Meridian City issued
938 residential permits with one plan reviewer and one building inspector. So, if you
break that down, Boise City and Ada County both require one employee to cover about
160 permits. Meridian City covered 470 building permits with one employee. So, your
budgetary numbers that they put on the board are completely inaccurate for the type of
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August 26, 2003
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service that you're currently getting with the situation that we have. And those are hard,
factual numbers from both Ada County and Boise City. So, Mr. Whitman is absolutely
correct in the fact that you're not going to get the same results out of an employee as
you're going to get out of a contract situation like we have now. It equates out to about
a 300 percent more efficient system right now, so, you know, I heard you guys all
concerned about the budget and saving money and working as efficient as we can, so if
that's true, I'm not sure I understand why we would want to mess with this. Any
questions?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Those facts that you give out of Boise and stuff, that was strictly people that are
assigned to residential?
Centers: That's is correct.
Bird: There is no commercial involved?
Centers: That is correct. I specifically broke those out. They have many more
inspectors and, actually, these numbers, quite honestly, are probably a little low,
because they have some inspectors that do dual functions, but I wanted to hedge on
the conservative side.
Corrie: Thank you, Jake. I've got here Kelly, the last name?
Krommenhoek: Krommenhoek.
Corrie: Krommenhoek. I'm glad you know. Is the testimony you are about to give the
Council the truth, so help you God?
Krommenhoek: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, please, Kelly.
Krommenhoek: Kelly Krommenhoek, 336 Creekside Place, Nampa, Idaho.
Corrie: Thank you.
Krommenhoek: Anyway, I'm not here to necessarily bring statistics, more just a
comment. I have been in this industry since 1972 and I have seen a lot of changes
over the years and there was time -- most of the work I do is in Canyon County and
there was a time when you could walk in, get a building permit, and walk out the same
day. Of course, that is long gone, as all are well aware. My point is, is that when I do
come to Ada County, Boise City, or Meridian, I do so with kind of disdain. I really don't
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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particularly care to work over here, so I try to avoid it whenever possible. But there is
one little bright spot and that is the City of Meridian and I often wonder to myself what it
was about Meridian that was different than the other places. Well, I found out about
three or four years ago that they contracted out the building permit work and/or the
inspections and so I thought, hum, private enterprise in action. Makes sense. So,
anyway, I'm not sure if I can make a difference or whatever, I just wanted to make a
comment, because to me it seems kind of strange to fix something that isn't broke.
Now, granted, I guess when you're looking for money, you'll do anything you can to get
it, Lord knows I do the same, you know, so I just would say that I would probably not be
in favor of those kind of things happening. Just to relate an experience, the last time I
was in one of the other jurisdictions I got to sit in an office -- well, actually, within earshot
in an office for about a half an hour while I heard some individual discuss his private life
and various things that basically pertain not to building permits or whatever and,
basically, I was left waiting for about a half an hour and, you know, I just found that to be
rather annoying, so -- and I have never experienced that here in Meridian. You're right
on all the time. Any comments?
Corrie: Thank you, Kelly.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Kelly, I got a question for you.
Krommenhoek: Sure.
Bird: You say you don't like to come to Ada County anymore than you have to.
Krommenhoek: Exactly.
Bird: Now, Nampa and Caldwell, do they subcontract their deal or do you have
problems with their building permits or are they a one stop shop?
Krommenhoek: No. They do -- I think they are in-house. I think that the City of
Nampa, I'm sure, is -- has their own employees and, yes, things have changed there.
It's not as much fun as it used to be there as well.
Bird: Well, they have grown.
Krommenhoek: Uh?
Bird: They have grown.
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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Krommenhoek: Yes, they have, they have grown a lot, and I can certainly understand.
But all I've noticed is, is every time I see a fee increase, service goes down, and I get to
wait longer and I have more hassle. So, that's my take of it. Any other questions?
Corrie: Thank you, Kelly. Got Keith Borup. Is the testimony you are about to give the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Borup: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Borup: Keith Borup, 2250 North Meridian Road, Meridian, Idaho. Mr. Mayor, Members
of the Council, I think you're probably used to most of the people that come to a public
testimony -- or public meeting are -- when it's something that affects them in their own
backyard and I don't think that's probably any different here tonight, but -- and that is
one of my concerns, but I think -- I think I have also, over the years, taken a concern for
the City of Meridian as a whole also. I think I can look at things with that perspective. I
think probably two of the important things that you're looking at tonight -- and, number
one, is what's been stated is -- can save the city money and that's one responsibility
you, as a City Council, have, is what's -- I mean -- and we would expect that. It's our
tax dollars that is under your care. But I think the other thing, also, is customer
satisfaction, so you need to decide whether that's important or not. Recently, you had
an outside company come in and do a customer satisfaction survey, Blakslee and
Associates, I believe, and I have never seen the results of that, I'm not sure how they
were, I know of some of the things I talked about when they came around to my
business and I'm assuming -- and maybe I don't know completely -- is that one of the
things that you take into consideration here? Have you looked how the Building
Department's compared on that survey with other departments? I would suspect very
favorably and, you know, is a change going to reflect as favorably if the same survey
was done. Some of the things have already been said. I think, you know, why -- why
we subcontract out. Past experience has shown that for my business that usually does
save money. I thought the statistics Mr. Centers had was very interesting and accurate.
I -- the Structural Mechanical Department of Boise has 12 employees and -- I mean this
is off their website. Under the plan review they have 13, so I think there is a lot of
secretarial help and stuff in there, too and again, for doing about the same amount of
permits. A number of years ago Meridian was doing more residential new construction
than Boise. Some of this may be a little bit repeating, but I just do not think -- in fact, I'm
surprised that there wasn't more savings than that. You know, that makes sense to
save some money, but in this case it looks like about 85,000 dollars -- 84,000 dollars is
what we are looking at. I expected it to be a lot more than that from -- for this to come
up for discussion. But I really question whether two inspectors can do that. It just --
well, it's just not going to happen. You can base that on past experience -- on the
experience of our neighbor to the east, it doesn't happen in their department. I know
Meridian is more efficient than other cities, but I don't know that we are 300 percent
more efficient. By the time you get another inspector and a half, we are right there
where we are and that's not guaranteed. I don't -- well, I know -- I have seen -- I have
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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seen Meridian's inspectors at 7:00 o'clock at night out doing inspections, because I was
out there, too, working, but you definitely don't see that in Boise. It's just not going to
happen. There is fluctuation. You know, the numbers that were or are up there on how
the building permits are growing is true, but it didn't go back to '96 and '97 when
Meridian was doing 1,200 permits a year. You know, that has gone down. We went
down to around 800, I believe, a few years back from 1,200. So, things do -- can go
and down. You know, that's something that the present situation -- contractor has had
to absorb either way. I don't know if there is anything else. I -- like I say, other than that
I would encourage you not to be too hasty in changing something that has the impact
that it does, because it does have an impact on my business. Awhile back I looked at
the -- I was looking at a construction schedule, turned out to be a house that was built in
Meridian back in the '80s. I went over that with my brother. I said why is it taking us
two weeks longer now to build a house than it was back then? And in analyzing it, it
was two things, mainly. One of them was framing and some of the other subcontractors
at that time used to -- used to pay their help on a piecemeal basis, a percentage of the
job. They have had to go where they have had to go hourly, so they got no more
overtime, it's an eight hour a day job, 40 hour a week, so it's taking them longer. The
other thing that added about a week to the time was inspections and the numbers of
inspections. We have about four times as many inspections now as we used to and
that's just -- that's just part of the game. I mean that's -- you know, there are more
things, so we got the energy and -- anyway, it goes on and on and that's -- that's the
way it is and that's not going to change. But if we end up with a department where
instead of taking four hours or a day to get out, that doubles, suddenly our one week of
inspection time goes into another week, so there is another week that could be added
to a job and so time is money in our business and I think the -- as has been stated, the
customer satisfaction we have with the present department now is the tops in the whole
valley. But probably the most important thing is whether it is really going to save money
and I would encourage you to look into some of the other cities and see how much they
produce per individual and based on that whether the budget projections are really
realistic. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you. Any questions of Keith? Any other testimony? Is the testimony
you are about to give the Council the truth, so help you God?
Palmer: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Palmer: Pat Palmer, Eagle, Idaho. I live in Eagle, I built -- I've lived here in Meridian
and built here for 20 years, I have done business with Keith and he understands private
enterprise. I don't know if he understands the permit process, because he had to deal
with us and I don't know if he dealt with you, but this is a whole different situation that
we are trying to -- we are trying to fix something that's not broke and we are not going to
save money, we are going backwards. I can see it. I fought with Rick Yzaguirre a few
years ago, I said, Rick, you're a good friend, why are you doing this? Daunt's getting
things done. Now, you're going to give us a guy that at 4:30 he's looking at his clock
Meridian City Council
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looking like I got to get the truck back by 5:00, because it's history. Well, Daunt's going
to be out there at 7:00, because he's got to be -- at 7:00 o'clock at night, because he's
still got some to do in Meridian and it just makes it so much easier that it gets done and
that's a private enterprise thing, it's not a clock-watcher, you're going to get this much,
no matter what. I didn't have time to clean up, I just found about it, and I apologize, I
just showed up when I found out that this was going on. It's just such a frustrating thing
for me to hear that we are going to save money in the City of Meridian, because it won't.
The subcontract thing, everybody -- every subcontractor -- I tried to frame and I tried to
roof and I tried do everything myself and I found out if you get the professionals, you
can get it done quicker and you can get it done better and you can stay within a budget
and when you get an employee that's watching his clock and they are not going to keep
up, they just will not keep up and you're going to buy insurance, you're going to buy
trucks, you're going to buy a lot more people to get that done and we talked about
1,200 permits, 800 permits, when you're in private enterprise you do what it takes. You
start at 6:00 in the morning if that's what it takes, you work until 8:00 o'clock, if that's
what it takes, and I'm just so discouraged that we are going to brake -- we are going to
try to fix something that's isn't broken and everybody -- there is a room full of
contractors here that probably spit all over themselves, like I do, just trying to talk to you
people in front of a microphone, but it's so frustrating trying to work in Boise. It takes so
much more time. I have pulled completely out of Boise. Ada County is okay. It's still
frustrating. Eagle is okay. But it's not like Meridian and you guys have a good thing
here and I tried to get a hold of Nancy Merrill, the Eagle mayor, I said can you give me
numbers quick, and I couldn't get a hold of her, to prove that they have gone backwards
since they put those two inspectors that are over there. There are two guys driving
around in the same truck. That doesn't make any sense to me. So -- maybe they
couldn't afford the other truck, because they didn't save all that money they needed, but
it's been a frustrating thing for me over there. They are getting it done and I hate to get
up here, because maybe one of guys is sitting in the back and it's going to cause me
problems later, but I hate to see -- fix something that isn't broken and, money-wise, this
is a big backwards situation, I just know it is, compared to free enterprise or private
enterprise doing it the way you're set up, because it works good and I hate to see you
change that and I know I have went over the same things everybody else has, but I'd
like to see it stay and it's a frustrating deal and everybody gets so frustrated, you know,
let's go get a job, do something else, when they keep changing things. This works and
if you have any questions that I could help you with, here I am and I'll I do my best.
Corrie: Got any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Thank you. It's a changing world. Believe me. Any other comments? Is the
testimony you are about to give the Council the truth, so help you God?
Saxton: It is.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
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August 26, 2003
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Saxton: Lon Saxton, 1934 South Rapid Creek Lane, Kuna, Idaho. I work for CW
Construction and we have been doing business -- well, my partner has been in longer
than I have, but I have been doing it with him for about eight years and, basically, I just
can say ditto to what everybody else has said. I think there are probably some other
expenses that you might incur that maybe you're not thinking about, too. These
individuals, they drive their own vehicles and I'm sure you guys are going to have to
staff these people with cars or whatever to do their inspections. One other comment
that I had was -- which has been really convenient for us, we have had the same kind of
problems in Boise, can't get a hold of inspectors when you need to, they won't return
your calls. Daunt and Steve Pearson have been just excellent with us. If we have a
question, we just call them on their cell phone and we got an answer like that. I hate to
see a -- take them out of that position. They have done an excellent job for Meridian
and there is not a city that I would rather work in then Meridian, but I just think that
would be a big mistake to take what's good out of this city and put something which
won't work, it will end up just like Boise or some of these other cities that -- I don't think
you can compare it with Kuna, they have one inspector out there and I don't think he
knows half the codes or anything else and -- not trying to put anybody down, but, you
know, these guys know all the codes, they are strict with the codes, they enforce them,
and they are pleasant to work with, they don't put you down or any of that kind of stuff
like some of the Boise people do, they look at you like you're a nobody and so it's --
they are a lot more personable and more enjoyable to work with. That's all I have to
say.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Any questions? Thank you. Anyone else? Is the testimony
you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Thornton: It is.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Thornton: Bill Thornton, 2565 North Crooked Creek Way. I'm the general manager for
Brighton Homes and the comments I'd like to make -- there is one thing that I would -- I
agree with everything that's been said as far as keeping it the way that it is. If you have
ever had to deal with the City of Boise in trying to get a permit through, we have had it
to where we have had to wait eight to ten weeks for a permit, we have had it to where
plans were lost, they couldn't find them, they don't return the phone calls, everything
everybody has said is true. I realize that you have a budget that you need to keep
within, but before you make the decision, I'd like to ask you if you could at least
compromise -- come to some compromise, so that we can keep what we have as far as
builders are concerned, so that the process can go as smooth as it has gone and you
could go ahead and work something out between the two of you, so that you could
meet both ends. Thank you.
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August 26, 2003
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Corrie: Okay. Any questions? I'm not sure Mr. -- or Daunt would like to lower his salary
any, but --
Thornton: Well, I'm not asking him to lower it.
Corrie: Well, I know, but if we keep him and we have two other people, it's going to be
higher and we can't do that. We have already got the budget set, so we can't go higher.
We can go lower by law -- and I think Daunt's done an excellent job for us, but I -- we
are at close to the 300,000 mark here that comes in now.
Thornton: Well, I don't know how the fees are split, but is it done on a --
Corrie: Percentage basis.
Thornton: -- percentage basis and not done on a per unit basis?
Corrie: Right.
Thornton: Okay.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Bill, do you think you and David would like to -- we can raise our permit fees, if
you'd like. Help us all out.
Thornton: Well --
Bird: I don't think it's lucrative out there.
Thornton: No, it's not lucrative. I think eventually the permit fees are going to go up,
just with the infrastructure that needs to be done and that. Somebody has to absorb the
cost. See, if the developer does it, then, they are going to raise the cost of the lots,
which are going to increase the cost for the builders and all the way down the line, so
somehow it's going to be taken care of.
Bird: And the consumer pays at the end.
Thornton: Right.
Bird: As normal.
Thornton: Exactly.
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August 26, 2003
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Corrie: Thank you, Bill. Anyone else? Is the testimony you are about to give the
Council the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Turnbull: Yes.
Corrie: Name and address, David.
Turnbull: David Turnbull, 12601 West Explorer Drive in Boise. I apologize, I got here a
little bit late, so I don't know everything that was said before me, but I wanted to
comment a little bit from -- I think most of the people that have talked have been from
the residential building side. I want to speak a little bit about the commercial building.
We do both in our company. Bill, that just testified, is my general manager in the home
division, but we do a lot of commercial construction as well. I continually ask County
Commissioners and City Council members and Mayors in other municipalities that have
this kind of an operation under their public works process, whether they have some kind
of matrix to gauge what kind of productivity they are getting. My experience in Boise
City -- we had -- I think it was the Boise Chamber when I was on the board at the Boise
Chamber, brought in a speaker about economic development and he told the audience
what it takes to recruit and retain businesses in our communities and one of the things
that he suggested was that if somebody was going to come town and wanted to
relocate their business to Meridian, Idaho, you darn well be -- better be ready to give
them a permit within a matter of days, not weeks. I mean he said the benchmark ought
to be about seven days turn around time on permits. Well -- so Boise City at that point
went around -- went about a reorganization of their department and as one fellow
contractor or developer told me the other day, the only thing he perceived they got out
of it was a remodel on the second floor of the City Hall. So, I -- you know, I'm not trying
to impugn Boise City and what they have done, all I know is from my experience the
turnaround times in just permits along, you know, just the time for when we submit a
plan for a building permits to when we actually get a permit in hand is much, much
better in Meridian, Idaho. I think they could probably even do some work to make it
even better in Meridian, Idaho. But what I have seen in the other municipalities that we
work in is there is very little accountability -- once you get something in place like that,
it's difficult to manage and difficult to make sure that you have got some kind of
performance matrix set up to where you're getting the best value for your dollar. So, I
haven't looked at your budget, I don't know what kind of savings you're trying to
anticipate here and you might be able to realize some in year one, but year five and
year ten down the road I'm afraid that you will probably find yourself spending more
than you would otherwise. You have a pretty efficient system right now. I -- you know,
like I said, I'm not an expert on what you have and how it works and how those fees are
based, but I know that for builders and contractors and developers they are able to get
their permits, they are able to get their inspections and they are pretty happy with the
way the system is now, so before you make any kind of precipitous change, I think there
at least needs to be further consultation with the people that are being affected. So,
that's all I want to add to maybe whatever has been said before and I will stand for any
questions.
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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Corrie: Any questions? Thank you, David. Anyone else? Okay. Is the testimony you
are about to give to the Council the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Hepper: I do.
Corrie: Name and address, please.
Hepper: My name is Tim Hepper. I live at 448 West Victory in Meridian. My father
started Hepper Homes in Meridian almost 50 years ago. We have been here forever.
Unfortunately, at times I'm forced to build outside the city limits. Every time I do I'm
totally frustrated with the system. I have built in Canyon County, Owyhee County, Ada
County, just this year Eagle City, Boise City, and Meridian and I practically swear I'll
never go back to those places again, just because the process is so difficult. Meridian -
- the system is so much better that -- the inspectors will still write red tags just as quick
and they will argue with you and everything else, but if you have got something that
needs fixed, you can fix it and get them back -- in Meridian you have got until 8:00
o'clock the next morning to call up and the inspection line, if you get your request in for
reinspection by 8:00 o'clock in the morning, they will come out the same day and Boise
City it's 4:30 of the previous day, if you don't have your request in by 4:30, they won't
come out the next day. Any of these delays adds to the cost and, as you know, costs
are passed down to the homeowner eventually -- you know, results in a higher priced
home. I just think that for the amount of money that -- that they were looking at saving,
I was kind of shocked there. By the time you figure in city trucks and at least one more
employee, probably more like two, I don't see where the savings are substantial. I just
don't see any way that two employees can do the work that these guys are doing. I
would say it's going to take at least three, maybe four. That's borne out the way Boise
City does theirs. So, anyway, I'm happy with the way things are. Like I said, this isn't a
good old boy type thing, you know, we argue with the inspectors and they red tag us
and we have our issues with them, but that's the way it should be. But at least we can
work through the system and the system here is so much better than it is anywhere
else. So, that's all I have got to say.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I know it's not a good old boy system, because I got red tagged, too, so --
Corrie: You're not a good old boy.
De Weerd: Thank you, Daunt. Or it was Steve.
Corrie: Thank you. Anyone else? Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
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August 26, 2003
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Dooms: Yes, it is. My name is Leonard Dooms. I live at 1105 Summerwind Place in
Nampa, Idaho. I have worked in the construction business in this valley over the last 30
years. I have worked in every jurisdiction within this valley. Keith knows me and I have
done business with him both in commercial and residential. Like you have heard
before, your system here works the best in the valley by far. It's a system that works.
It's the easiest on the contractor, not necessarily at the expense of the building, the
buildings that are built here are of the same quality, structurally, inspection wise, as any
other entity within the valley, but your system works. Like the other gentlemen have
said, when we make a phone call, we get a phone call back and in the other entities,
not always, sometimes never. I have placed five to six phone calls to find out an
answer on a red tag. In this entity I place one. A lot of times I will have the inspection
the same day and in the other entities, two or three days later. Now, if it's a dollars and
cents thing, you pay more, but you get more for your buck. Thank you very much.
Corrie: Thank you. Anyone else?
Kilchenmenn: Mr. Mayor. Could I -- I just wanted to clarify a point on the budget
technicality. We can move the money from personnel back to operating, then, reduce
the transfer of the capital improvement fund without changing the bottom line. I just
wanted to make sure that was clear.
Corrie: Okay. Seeing there is no more testimony, Council, discussion? Let me start it
off. Daunt has been good for the city, there is no question about that. We are getting to
be a bigger town, bigger city. We are going to have to have more inspectors Daunt
stated that he about -- maybe not quite half the time he's in other cities, so that means
that he's here half or a little bit over half. So, consequently, he's getting the job done for
us. Everyone here tonight testified that we are going downhill. You're speculating that
it will happen in Meridian. I can't tell you whether it will or won't, but I do want to make
the statement that Daunt has been good for us, there is no question about that. Again,
we are the keepers of the money, so to speak here, and we have got to find ways to
pay for it and the city gets bigger and the budget gets bigger, but, yet, the property
taxes aren't going up and we have to do more for less. I think from the budget
standpoint we have to do something. We are vastly and pretty quickly approaching the
300,000 dollar mark for a building inspector and that's one and, then, he has another
person that works with him. So, I think from a standpoint of that, I -- the assumption
that we are going to go downhill like Boise and the others is not going to be correct, at
least not from here, anyway. Of course, as you all know, I'm not going to be here after
January, but I think that we have got a good Building Department, we have got good
employees, and we can still get good employees. I would like to see Daunt work for us.
I think we would be very fortunate. But I don't know as that will happen or not. That's
up to Daunt. But I kind of in a way resent the fact that Meridian is going to go the same
way Boise does and some of these others. We don't know that yet. Now, if you're right,
I'll eat my words, I know I will, but I'm not too sure that it's going to happen. But there is
change in the city and we are going to have to change with it and that's where I'm
coming from and I don't know -- the Council is the one that has the purse strings, I don't
have any say, unless they have a tie vote, and I don't think there will be, but just the
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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thing that -- I just want to make sure that everyone knows here, we respect Daunt and
we think he has done a great job, but we have got to also be the keepers of the money
that people are paying. If you have to -- I think there was one here that said they had
to go back to an hourly rate, because they were paying too much for something. Well,
that's when we are doing. Whether we are paying too much, I don't know. But we are
getting -- very rapidly going to the 300,000 dollars for one inspector. That's too much
money. That may not be to you or where we are going, but I think that we got a
problem here. So, I'm going to let the Council say what they need to say and I will go
from there. Council?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Regarding this one item on the budget is the deal and I will be the first to tell you
that we are probably not going to save a lot of money. I think it's -- and Daunt has done
a great job, but I tell you guys something, I'd like all your phone numbers, so that when I
have developers and builders sitting across from me, their face is as red as that shirt
out there, yelling and screaming at me about stuff of ours, we are not perfect by a long
shot. We try to be the best and we will keep working towards that, I can guarantee you
that, as long as I'm on the Council that we will work towards being better, but we have
our problems, too. If you guys are getting inspections and plan reviews and everything
out as fast as you're saying -- there is about 12 of you here that are favorites in the city,
because I can tell you I can name you others that don't. I've mostly worked in the
commercial field and I realize that it's a different ballgame there, but I think it's -- this is
something that, as a Council and the Mayor we have to look ahead at and see and I -- I
mean, sure, I'd like to see Daunt come and walk over to Gary and say I'd like to be your
building inspector, but I don't think he's going to take a pay cut like he would. So, that's
all I got to say. I appreciate every one of you guys coming out here. I have worked with
a lot of you, you're all good builders and stuff and I appreciate what you say and, you
know, this isn't a dye in the wool thing, we might -- we still got -- can still do some
changing and stuff if we feel free to, but I've got -- I have pros and cons on it, I really do.
I have always been an advocate of private industry. Coming in, that's -- I'm the one that
pushed for the -- to have our private outside lawyers. Best thing that's ever happened.
They have yet to reach what our last budget was when we had our in-house lawyer, so
-- we shouldn't be telling him the two of them here that, but that's the truth. That's all I
have got to say.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I really do appreciate all the comments here tonight. I do think it was very
important. I guess what I take away is probably different than the Mayor or Mr. Bird, is
we have a model system that at least works better than what our surrounding entities
have and that isn't the first time we have heard it, we have heard that from other -- from
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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other people as well about how Mr. Whitman and how this system works here in the city.
So, I don't see -- I think what Mr. Bird says is correct, for the long-term benefit of the city
at some point that the City of Meridian needs to be the entity that employs the
inspectors and that they work for the city. I'm not a big fan of contracting out for
services when it can be done more efficiently and cheaper internally, but from I guess
what I'm hearing, I don't know that we are there. I don't think we are. One thing I
haven't seen -- and we haven't discussed the budget hearing or tonight, is what
transition do we have to get to where we'd like to be. It sounds to me like from what at
least we are hearing from the people in this room, the system we have now works very
well. I haven't heard that this -- this change is going to enhance the service that we
have or improve the service that we have or even maintain the service that we have
and so I guess I'm not supportive of the change until I know that that's what we are
doing. I would not support a change just to save money. I think it is our responsibility to
manage this budget and manage the public's money, but saving a dollar to lose service
doesn't really benefit anybody and, eventually, it costs you more money. It costs you
more money in a lot of different ways and the credibility out there in the public and to
the building industry is worth a lot of money in itself. So I guess I haven't seen that and
maybe Mr. Smith has some thoughts on that, but I really haven't seen that, all I have
seen is a transition from contract service to an in-house service, that it would city
employees versus contracted employees and I haven't seen anything -- and whether or
not we need to build in the transition -- and it may not be something that could be
accomplished in one year, that maybe that's what we need to look at, but that's what I
haven't seen and I think if we are going to do this that we need to work with these
people in this room and work with the building contractors and such, so that these are
our customers and this is the credibility that at least appears to be from the folks that
are here tonight that we would be losing by simply changing it and if we are going to
change, we need to have a little longer term plan as to how that could be accomplished
with their buy in, with their participation. I think we have done that on everything else
and I guess I'm not supportive of this change based on what I have heard tonight.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I know we have kind of put Gary in an awkward situation. We have been
talking about doing this for three years now and I agree with Councilman Nary that if we
are going to transition like this, we need to have it well thought out, well planned, and a
transition plan in place. I do appreciate you all being here and sharing your thoughts.
We have gotten good comments on the service level we have here. There is a concern
and there may be a savings, you look at it, there is 85,000 dollars that we have a lot of
needs in this city and that's -- I'm sure all of you recognize that. We don't know what
the actual savings would be and maybe even sitting down with Mr. Whitman that we can
get that extra person within the existing contract if he sees that. We just also started to
realize that we have a lot of authority to a contractual employee. That was a level of
concern that we had, that when you look at all the decision making and that sort of thing
that Mr. Whitman has, how do you -- how does that answer back to the city and I guess
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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that's why we started looking at making this a position that did have answerable
consequences to the city and looking at it transitionally to begin in the Building
Department. I think the testimony that we got tonight does put some different light on
things, that we do need to think about a few more things before we make this change
and when I first saw Mr. Whitman's letter and the insinuation that your service level is
going to be different, we don't know that. Although, I can say that all five of your elected
officials up here are definitely committed to a level of service that won't change. We
can't guarantee it, but I do know that we are very committed to it. It's nice to hear that
we have a good level of service and that's a true reflection of Daunt and, like I said, I did
have that opportunity to go through the permitting process myself and saw -- I saw the
inspection in action. So, I guess I would also share Councilman Nary's comments that
maybe we are not there yet and I apologize to Gary, we have been really looking at this
and saying we need to really address this authority and responsibility back to the city
issue and maybe there is a different way we can do it and that is sitting down with Mr.
Whitman and seeing that. But one thing I am concerned about, Meridian has fewer
employees to each task in all of our departments. I don't think you can compare the
numbers that we have in Meridian to these other surrounding cities and say that all of
our employees do more than what is happening in the other cities and I don't see that
this would be any different. But, yeah, maybe the timing is not right. But right now they
have two employees doing something that costs us 85,000 dollars more than what we
were projecting. Would it end up that way? I don't know. But we do know that our
employees work extra hard in all our departments. I think if you go and you compare
what our employees do to what Boise and Nampa do for the number of employees, you
will find that situation in every single case. So, I just believe, too, as Councilman Nary,
that maybe we are not there. I do appreciate you guys coming out and sharing your
thoughts and, hopefully, we haven't severed any relationships with Mr. Whitman, that
we can work towards something that is going to keep that level of service and maybe,
as Mr. Turnbull says, maybe do some tweaking and improving it as well, that we can
carry on the tradition that apparently we have set with you folks at least and carry that
on.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: I'm very grateful to you people out there that came in and testified tonight,
because it gave me a lot of thought. I think that Mr. Nary pretty well echoed what I have
been sitting here thinking. I don't know that I would be in favor of a change, certainly
right now. I think we need to spend a lot of time thinking about this before we make any
definite change. I appreciate you coming. You gave me a lot of food for thought.
Corrie: Gary.
Smith: Mr. Mayor, Council Members, and ladies and gentlemen of the audience. I just
wanted to be sure that -- and I have expressed it before to you, Mayor and Council, how
appreciative I am of what Daunt has done in the building inspection business. He's very
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August 26, 2003
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good to work with, he knows his business and I appreciate it as much as anybody. I
now the contractors really do. I know he's worked hard to establish the relationship that
he has -- or that the City of Meridian has with the contractors. The transition question is
definitely a very valid and important question that Councilman Nary raised and I don't
think that has been given enough thought. There always is a question when you're
hiring an employee as to what of kind of employee you're hiring and sometimes you
don't know that until after the employee has been hired and I'm sure that our
contractors have gone through that with their subcontractors, too. We did do survey
work through the Human Resource Department for salaries. In fact, the first report --
the first report that came in that I looked at I said I don't think that's enough, I don't think
you can hire an inspector for those costs, for those salaries, so it went back out for
reevaluation, came back, and it was a little higher. But those costs were established
through the HR Department. We do have some costs in there for some plan review --
outside plan review consulting and, of course, all the equipment was included in the
costs that were submitted to you, such as pickups and cell phones and some clothing
allowance and so forth. I just wanted the audience to know that those items were
included, it wasn't just bodies. But, again, I'm very supportive of Daunt and what he's
done and Steve Pearson. I think the third person is definitely something that we need
to talk about. Daunt's comment about his contractual obligation to the City of Meridian is
absolutely true. We recently had an employee leave the City of Meridian's Public Works
Department, an Engineering Technician, and it was a phone call that was placed one
morning and a voice mail message and that was the notice. That person was there on
Friday and Monday that person was not. So what Daunt's related to you is absolutely
true. I mean that's -- that happens. I think that's all I wanted to say, Mr. Mayor and
Council, and if you have any questions -- I know that, as you said, we have been talking
about this for several years and I -- Councilman de Weerd, I don't -- certainly don't need
an apology. I mean it's not necessary, because it's something that we have talked
about. The transition thing and the input from the industry are two important things that
happened tonight. Thank you.
Corrie: Thank you, Gary. Again, let me say to everybody here, Daunt has done a
wonderful job, but I think, under the circumstances, what we heard here tonight, that we
need to go back and talk to the Finance Director and see what we can do and how we
can do it. I just -- I do want the service to stay the level, the same as it was, or even
better. Now, we may have to go back and maybe hire another one and keep the
situation we got today, but we have to find out how we can do this legally and that's
what I'm looking at and I think from what she has said that we might be able to do that.
So -- and from what the Council is telling me here tonight, I think we can still have time
to do that, if I'm correct. Is that right, Stacy?
Kilchenmann: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. I think under the circumstances that would probably be the best thing to
do. Eventually, this is going to have to have happen, we know that, but -- we don't
know that either. So, let's -- my recommendation to the Council would be to remand
this back to the Finance Director, see what way we can go and what we can do and if
Meridian City Council
August 26, 2003
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we can juggle some figures and, then, talk to Daunt and see what we can do there. I
don't know. I mean anytime that somebody reduces a salary by 250,000 plus, that
worries me and so if we can work something out, Daunt, that would please me to no
end. I'm not hard nosed about this whole thing either, but I think we need to look at it a
little bit more and get some information from you and from -- we have got plenty of
testimony from the -- I think there was about ten builders here and so if the Council is in
agreement, we can go back to you, Stacy, and give us some information that perhaps
we can look at.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mrs. Kilchenmann, I guess what thought I heard you say and what I thought we
could do is, if we wanted to, delete that line item for Building Official and Inspector and
return the 250,000 dollars from personnel back to operations and we have the money in
the budget to cover that, so we don't have to wait until next week, we can do that now.
Kilchenmann: You're correct. We will just reduce the transfer, the capital improvement
fund and, actually, Reta is in there doing it right now. She will just be a minutes.
Nary: Well, that be said, I guess I would move --
Kilchenmann: The bottom line will stay the same.
Nary: Right. The bottom line is all that's required by the state code, so I guess I would
move, then, to delete the building official and inspector personnel costs of 165,785
dollars from the budget for fiscal year '04 and also to move the contracted costs of
250,000 dollars from personnel that was transferred back to the operations line for
building -- for the building official and inspector contract that we currently have. That we
can all do legally; correct?
Bird: Mr. Nary?
Nary: Yes.
Bird: I'll second that, but I question your amount of money. I thought it was 165,785,
but you got another 20 and you got another 10 and you got another 1,500 that is capital
that is -- that would go out of that -- that would go out of that, too, other than -- I guess
maybe the 20 would stay, in the inspection contract costs, I don't know if Daunt does
that or -- and so that would stay in.
Corrie: No, he doesn't.
Nary: Those other items were separate. They weren't --
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August 26, 2003
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Bird: They weren't covered, but we take the employee incentive out, because we don't
have that now when we have contract labor. That's 10,000. You wouldn't have the
employee, unless that includes your --
Kilchenmann: That wasn't all for the building inspector, that's for the --
Bird: That was for the inspectors that we were hiring, right?
Kilchenmann: No.
Bird: That was added to theirs?
Kilchenmann: There is other building department --
Bird: Other building department --
Kilchenmann: -- employees.
Corrie: How about staff?
Bird: We have got two people and a part time one?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor, I guess since it's officially not seconded --
Corrie: Just a minute. Keith's still got the floor. Are you --
De Weerd: No. He said --
Bird: No, I didn't.
Corrie: Oh. Okay.
Nary: The reason that the motion doesn't incorporate the other line items, is because
that's not incorporated in the transfer for the 250 and the employee incentive piece was
just a percentage based on the percentage we originally had set aside for the general
employees out of the General Fund. So, it's just a percentage amount and I don't know
-- if it's a percentage that's related to the two hired inspectors, it would reduce that
amount as well, but reducing it isn't an issue, it's just transferring it properly, but -- and
the capital replacement doesn't have anything to do with it either, so --
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess since his motion wasn't seconded, I'm assuming it died. I would like
to see it wait until next week and that way we can get with Daunt and have a few initial
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August 26, 2003
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discussions. I know we have it on public record that he's talking about a third
employee, which means enhanced service to all of you, that's a good thing, you all
heard it, so you're witnesses, and just kind of iron out a few things as well, so --
Corrie: I think I -- if I'm not mistaken, I believe Mr. Bird did make a second to the motion
there, too.
Bird: No. I said I would second if we went over the money and I did not second it until
then.
Corrie: Oh. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: All of these people came tonight, I don't know that any -- we are not -- I guess to
me, unless someone else thinks differently, we are not ready to do this now. We are not
ready to do this is in this budget. So, what are we going to find out next week? Nothing
different. All I'm suggesting on the motion was, was delete the building official and
inspector as a personnel cost in the coming budget, that we return the money back to
operations and if Mr. Whitman wants to increase his contract, that's a whole different
issue. That's not -- that's not before us today and that's not what we are going to talk
about next week anyway. We have -- we have contracted folks, like our legal services
that request increases in their contract and we deal with that separately. But I guess to
me I'm not going to -- I wouldn't support anything, other than delete the building official
and inspector, return the money back to the contract as we had originally intended, and
we are basically back to where we were before our budget hearing in July. That's all I'm
suggesting by my motion. If we are going to deal with something else, increased
service, increased personnel for Mr. Whitman, that's a whole different thing.
Corrie: That's under contract.
Nary: Yeah. I don't see a reason to wait until next week. What's the point?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
McCandless: I'll second that motion.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been and seconded. Now we got that part. Mr. Bird.
Bird: Mr. Mayor, when do we -- when is Daunt -- does he work fiscal year or calendar
year? He works fiscal year, don't you? So, we do have a contract coming up to be
negotiated.
Corrie: In October. Well, it's got to be done here in the next month. Okay.
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August 26, 2003
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Bird: Okay.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: Since we are in discussion, are we absolutely sure that some of that money
was not for the building department itself?
Nary: Which money?
De Weerd: 165,785. The some of that was not a capital expenditure for any other
piece of the operation in the Building Department.
Corrie: Gary.
Smith: Mayor and Council, that 165,785 is just the enhancement for the building official
and the building inspector.
De Weerd: So, totally related to building inspection?
Smith: Correct.
Bird: It doesn't include pickups or anything?
Smith: It does include pickups, yes. It has capital outlay in it, but it's just for the
enhancement of the building inspector and a building official.
De Weerd: Okay.
Corrie: Okay. Any other discussion? We have got a motion before the floor to remove
the 165,785, delete that, and put the 250,000 dollars in operations, the contract cost.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Let's get one thing straight, that this isn't a guarantee that we go back to a
contract deal. We are just changing some money back that would cover us under the
contract. If we can't -- if we can't negotiate contract, then, that we would not be --
Nary: Sure.
Corrie: That's true.
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August 26, 2003
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Bird: This isn't a dye in the wool contract with Daunt, this motion.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Yeah. I guess all the intent that I have is that whatever contract we have that
exists with Mr. Whitman isn't going to change. How we change that contract is a
separate process than what we are talking about tonight. So, yeah, it just funds the
ability to continue with the contract as it's currently situated, so --
Bird: That's correct. That's right.
Nary: Yeah. I think that's all the intent is.
De Weerd: Okay. Question.
Corrie: Okay. Any -- the question has been called for. Roll-call vote, Mr. Berg. I'm
sorry. I got to close the Public Hearing, if -- pardon?
Nary: The motion was to delete the 165,785 from the personnel cost for the building
official and inspector and to return 250,000 back to the contract costs for operations.
Corrie: Okay. Since I have not closed the Public Hearing on this, I will allow one -- I
will allow you to say what you want to say and, then, it's got to be closed.
Centers: Okay. Fine. Jake Centers, 2011 Locust Grove again. Just one more thing to
think about. You know, something that's not being considered is the amount of overtime
that Mr. Whitman and his staff puts into actually complete close to a thousand
inspections -- or building permits through the plan review to the final processing. It is
physically impossible for two eight hour employees to cover that many inspections.
You're either going to need to factor in overtime for those employees or factor in
another employee. That's just something that's not coming up on the radar, that those
guys put in a lot of extra -- not just your eight hour days, so you're not comparing apples
to apples. So, please, factor that in. I have one question. If this did go to two salaries
employees for inspections and they are just completely overwhelmed and get buried
and no way can keep up, what do you think about some kind of backup contingency
plan. Is there extra money to hire another employee if that's -- because it will happen.
If you only hired two people, you're going to get a lot more than ten people knocking on
your door talking about, you know, permits not getting out and inspections not getting
done. So, definitely something to think about, because there is just no way two people
are going to handle a thousand permits a year.
Corrie: Thank you, Jake. Appreciate it. Okay. I will entertain a motion -- can I do this -
- can I entertain a motion to close the Public Hearing now?
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August 26, 2003
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Nichols: Mr. Mayor, you better.
Corrie: Okay. Yeah. You're right.
Nary: I'd move to close the Public Hearing.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded to close the Public Hearing. All in favor
say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: Now, we have got another motion before the floor and that is the one that Mr.
Nary made to -- that as I repeated before. Does everybody understand it?
De Weerd: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. All right. Then, roll-call, Mr. Berg.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Nary: Do you want me to do it again?
Berg: Because I was absent and looking up some dates. Did it also include for the
attorney to prepare an ordinance for next meeting? No. Okay.
Corrie: No. We are not there yet.
Nary: We are not there yet.
De Weerd: No. We are not there yet.
Berg: Okay. Thank you.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All four yeas. Motion is carried. So, we will do that and we will talk with you.
First of all, I want to thank everybody for being here this evening. You have got great
loyalty and it has proven to us that you really are interested in making sure that you
have the -- we have the capability of taking care of the builders and I do want to thank
you for coming tonight, so you have heard the results here and we'll be taking care of
the --
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
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August 26, 2003
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Corrie: Yes.
Bird: We need a motion for the attorney to prepare a budget ordinance and the budget
amendment for tonight.
Corrie: That's exactly --
Bird: And I would make a motion that we authorize the attorney to draw up an
ordinance showing the fiscal year 2004 budget.
De Weerd: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded for the attorney to draw up the
ordinance for the budget for 2004 as published earlier. Any further discussion? Okay.
Roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
Corrie: All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Corrie: The next item on the agenda is the Executive Session.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I need to make one more motion.
Corrie: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.
Bird: I'm getting -- I'm pushing you here.
Corrie: You're right.
Bird: I would make a motion that we amend in the building department, to take the
250 --
Corrie: That's already done.
Bird: Oh. Okay. I'm sorry. Let's start over. I move that we approve the budget
amendments for the sum of 44 thousand two hundred forty-seven --
Corrie: Not thousand, 264 -- here it is right here.
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August 26, 2003
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Bird: Oh. Forty-four thousand --
Corrie: Forty-four million.
Bird: Million. 247,264 -- that's revenues.
Corrie: Well, it comes out the same. Revenue. Expenses.
Bird: No. It goes to 33. Revenues. Anyway, I make a motion that we approve the
fiscal year 2003 budget amendments.
Nary: Second.
Bird: It was here somewhere.
De Weerd: What did you second?
Nary: I think that Mr. Nichols will do it correct.
Corrie: Yes. It's got to balance, anyway.
Bird: It's got to balance out, so --
Corrie: Okay. Is there a second to the motion?
De Weerd: Yeah.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Okay. Roll-call vote, Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Berg: Mr. Mayor, with that motion for the approval of the amendment, we will prepare a
Public Hearing for that amendment, because that's what we have to do in the time
before the end of the month as we will get that done.
Bird: Will that be the 2nd? Will we have time to do that the 2nd?
Berg: No.
Corrie: We will make time. It may be 2:00 o'clock in the morning, but we will do it.
Bird: Okay.
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August 26, 2003
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Berg: No. We can't notice it that far -- I mean that close. We have to do the normal
process and I think it's the --
Nary: Is it the 16th?
Berg: The 16th and the 23rd. It's two hearings. Two notices. But we will prepare that
for Public Hearing and we will have appropriate time to prepare an ordinance for that
and everything will be okay.
Item 12: Executive Session.
De Weerd: Thank you, Will. We have Item No. 12 and that's the executive session.
Do I have a motion?
Nary: Madam President?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I'd move that we go into executive session under Idaho Code 67-2345(1)(c).
De Weerd: Do we have a second?
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. It's been moved and seconded to adjourn into executive session per
state code 67-2345(1)(c). Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea.
De Weerd: Thank you.
EXECUTIVE SESSION:
Corrie: I will entertain a motion to come out of executive session.
Bird: So moved.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion made and seconded to come out of executive session. All in favor say
aye? All ayes, motion carried. Council we did discuss about a project that was going
on in Meridian. I will entertain a motion of what you would like for the Mayor to do about
it. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Mayor. I guess what I would request is if Mr. Mayor if you would hand a letter
from your office to the Ada County Highway District regarding the widening of Pine
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August 26, 2003
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Street between Eagle and Cloverdale and request that they could come to our next Pre-
Council session next Tuesday and give us an update on exactly what’s been
happening. We’ve received some emails, letters and calls about that. There have been
some public newspaper articles about it and if they could give us an update.
Corrie: Okay.
Bird: Second.
Corrie: Motion been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? Hearing
none. All in favor say aye. All ayes, motion carried. I will entertain a motion at this
point to –
De Weerd: So moved to adjourn.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Hadn’t quite got it out yet. All in favor say aye. All ayes, motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:55 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
__________________________ ______/______/______
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE APPROVED
ATTEST:
_____________________________________
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR, CITY CLERK