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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003 07-14 Joint ACHDMeridian City Council Special Joint Meeting With Ada County Highway District Commission July 14, 2003 The Joint Meeting of the Meridian City Council and the Ada County Highway District Commission was called to order at 12:00 P.M. on Monday July 14, 2003. Council Present: Mayor Bob Corrie, Keith Bird, Bill Nary, Cherie McCandless, and Tammy De Weerd. Staff Present: Bill Nichols, Gary Smith, Anna Powell, and Will Berg. Ada County Highway District Commission Present: David Wynkoop, Dave Bivens, Susan Eastlake, and Sherry Huber. Ada County Highway District Staff Present: Bruce Mills, Terry Little, and Joe Rosenlund. COMPASS: Erv Olen Item 1. One Way Streets – Main/Meridian Couplet: Huber: The first item on the agenda is the couplet. As I mentioned I was out of town and so I went through reading all the papers and I see there’s a little activity there again so Terry. Little: I’ll delegate to Joe since he went out and talked to Meridian and he foresaw the study. I think we would get a better continuity if he starts out and addresses it. (Inaudible) discuss what he heard at Meridian and interact. Bird: Madam Chairman. This couplet thing was put on the agenda and had nothing to do with one-way streets. That came up onto us as a surprised last deal and we put that on the back burner for a while. This couplet is what we’re talking about as the one we’ve been discussing. With Corporate Drive on out on Waltman and stuff. This has nothing to do – and how that got in the Statesman, I do not know. The Mayor was going to call – Huber: So you really want to know the update on the couplet. You don’t want to talk about the one-way street? Bird: Not at all. Huber: Well you have to adjust only the couplet. Rosenlund: We did meet during the Pre-Council (inaudible) it still seems like they have a pretty significant number of signatures on (inaudible) or whatever. There are a lot of them there for a new entrance I’m looking at it. What the Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 2 of 25 Council did basically was kind of put it off to revisit it instead of hammer having to get through their budget. What I’m doing in the meantime, I called Earth Tech people that did the original study and asked them to provide me a scope to update the numbers and look at some new traffic numbers and look at new dollar numbers. That’s kind of a (inaudible) not get into a heck of a lot of detail. Only for a new couplet versus kind of no new build situation. I’m just trying to keep it down to the minimal cost and just get some updated numbers to – because there’s not a lot of change in Meridian to (inaudible) remodel then we should get a little more accurate picture of what to expect benefit of the Ten Mile Interchange Overpass. That’s kind of one of the big argument points is how much benefit those will provide your relief to (inaudible). Without knowing really (inaudible) speak much more than what we already have in the study. Huber: But your update is only on the couplet. Bird: That’s fine with us. Huber: Did you have any other questions for Mr. Rosenlund? Bird: No. Huber: What is the tentative schedule on that still? Are we still on track? Rosenlund: As far as getting the study? Huber: The study and started. Rosenlund: Well I just called them last week so hopefully I’ll get the scope back from them this week. As long as there’s not (inaudible) gauges to that we should be able to get rolling on that. It should happen in time for the September Meeting. Huber: Okay so then we’ll know more. Item 2. Design for Extension of Highway 16: Huber: All right. Then the next item is the design for extension of Highway 16 City of Meridian who would be that person? Bird: I have no idea but I think it’s – Huber: Does anyone here know anything about what that’s about? Bruce does okay. Mills: Bruce Mills right of way development. I believe this is over the new draft CIT as a map. The old maps would show that would dash lines that could go to Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 3 of 25 either Ten Mile or to Black Cat. I believe that the new CIT map if I remember right just shows one line over to Ten Mile. I think there was a concern there that Meridian didn’t want to say okay you’re choosing Ten Mile because we would more tend to favor Black Cat. At this point there’s actually development yes here’s the map right here. At this point in time, it just shows one line here instead of the old way where we showed dash lines. I think you know the study that was done for the North Meridian Area by Wardle and Associates said that they favored Black Cat. I understood that’s also Meridian’s feeling in time. I did want to say also that north of Chinden there’s a development now that is in place there just west of the Golf Course that would make it probably more difficult to try to tie into Ten Mile north. Bird: Wasn’t the original plan haven’t we talked before that we’re going to come down to Franklin and then it goes over to Ten Mile because of the Ten Mile Interchange if we do get. I thought it came down Black Cat and then comes across there on Franklin over to Ten Mile and then goes to the overchange or the interchange. Mills: I’m not aware of any definite plans that we have as for where it would cut over or if it would just be that it connects with Chinden then people could take whatever street, they want to to get over to Ten Mile. Bird: Well I would be – yes that’s fine. Huber: But what does the discussion whether it would be on Black Cat or on Ten Mile the interchange itself? Bird: The interchange is going to be off of Ten Mile. Mills: It’s off of Ten Mile. Huber: Okay there’s no issue there? Bird: No issue there at all Sherry that I know of. That’s always been it’s going to – Huber: Well when that other came up on Black Cat it seemed to me that there were people – Bird: They were even looking at putting one on Robertson. They had one there on Robertson that was supposed to your deal and now they’re (inaudible) off there. They had plans for it to do that but I don’t know. The interchange has always been at Ten Mile for us. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 4 of 25 Little: Some of the Canyon County folks wanted it on Robinson. I’m not sure if they feel the issue is dead but I think most Ada County folks are in agreement they want it on Ten Mile. Bird: We hope it is let’s put it that way. Eastlake: Madam President this may be the kind of issue that we ought to you know maybe think about actually trying to designate a corridor. The reason I say that is as Bruce said you know if we had wanted it to come across north of Chinden it’s to late because there’s a development. The same thing is going to happen the whole length of Ten Mile. If we’re all very clear that we want something other than just the existing section line roads to be the way that people go from Highway 16 to the freeway. If we really think there has to be a Highway 16 extension from Chinden to the freeway it comes to the Ten Mile Interchange it seems to me that we had better get busy looking at a potential corridor or the decision is going to be made without our – Huber: How far does your area of impact extend there? Corrie: All the way to Chinden and all the way to the Canyon County line. Huber: Because what I’m getting at if we designate it’s really critical – I mean you’re the ones will make sure that – Bird: We have to and I think Sherry’s right in the fact that we need to get it dedicated with them so that we know with this development starting which way are you coming down. North (inaudible) from south Chinden are you coming down Ten Mile or are you coming down Black Cat. We need to know that. Eastlake: Or is there some place in the middle you know for a whole new corridor do you need to leave Ten Mile and Black Cat and find a mid-section or is there some place else you need to put a major highway. All those things are – Huber: Does anyone have a feel for the status of realistically when the Ten Mile Interchange might be done? I know only peripheral and discussion but is that maybe realistically 10 years out or 15 years. Erv. Olen: Madam President (inaudible) presentation last month on Ten Mile. It was – at the conclusion of that presentation the Idaho Transportation Board (inaudible) two directions to the staff. One is they have very much support of the (inaudible) partnership. Second, they asked (inaudible) a map with a proposal for how to fit the Ten Mile Interchange into the current five-year program. Huber: Was that prompted? Did the developer make an offer for five million dollars? Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 5 of 25 Olen: The presentation was a five million dollar offer by the developer. Huber: So they just gave staff direction and it’s still a little bit up in the air? Olen: It’s still up in the air but the direction was to come back with a proposal on how it fit into the five-year program. I talked with the Idaho Transportation Department last week a little bit about that. They’re going to try to bring back a package of projects that would not just be at Ten Mile Interchange but also – it’s on the horizon. No date has been specified. I just went through the Idaho Transportation Board benefit I didn’t see anything in the (inaudible) but it was (inaudible). Corrie: Pam already told me it was probably a District 3 project. (Inaudible) at this point. The developer, the landholders out there have offered five million dollars to the ITD to help break the cost of it (inaudible). From what I know nobody else has gotten too involved in money other than five million – Huber: Because as that progresses that’s going to put tremendous pressure on our part. I mean you get five million to them but all the touch down rows and all of that will be us. Corrie: Well we knew that was going to happen. Huber: Yes. Corrie: I mean it’s not a surprise to anybody. Huber: No. Corrie: But even to us when they came and asked us (inaudible) to do it too. We said find other avenues if you can and see where they go. I do know that ITD said they were District 3 and five million from landowners they would come back and see what they could do. Huber: Because the follow up with yours if it’s really a reality then there’s probably a study that we’re going to have to do in between there to either know whether you come across our – Corrie: Yes we’ve go to know. Huber: That’s why I’m saying is – Corrie: Yes absolutely. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 6 of 25 Huber: And part of it even if we designate a corridor it’s critical that we all agree because you’re going to have to enforce it when it comes through your development apps. Corrie: You could come down Ten Mile or Black Cat. If you come down Black Cat, it’s going to have to be an angle over. You’re going to have to take that into consideration our Comprehensive Plan and everything else. Like you said, you too, and you’re absolutely right we have to. The sooner the better. Eastlake: Yes, because the difficulty is it seems unlikely that this needs to be less than a five-lane road. Until we do a study, we don’t know but it might ought to be a limited access road. Those things become very expensive if there are buildings in the right of way or if you’re buying access rights. We would hope that we’re not going to repeat Eagle Road. Corrie: I think you’re going to have pretty close to another Eagle Road. Bird: (inaudible) I’m afraid that’s what it’s going to wind up being so we need to plan ahead. I think that’s why we need to get the plan done and see which roads are coming down. You know I’m thinking this on our North Meridian Plan already we’ve got entrances at half mile deals. I think it would be so nice if Eagle Road would have been – had access roads and (inaudible). De Weerd: Madam Chair I know that when we were updating our Comprehensive Plan we took a look at what would most be feasible Ten Mile or Black Cat. Black Cat was the least developed out then Ten Mile and had the most potential to do frontage roads or have some kind of limited access because it had not been developed so much yet. That’s why in our Comp Plan we did designate Black Cat as the Highway 16 connection. I know that Mike Wardle had talked with the development community, when he brought his recommendation forth it just really helped visualize that whole circulation in that north area, and how we can connect up with the other communities and that sort of thing. At this point so what we can in our Comprehensive Plan and our planning documents as developments come on line that is the best road at this point to accommodate that connection. Huber: Has anyone on staff, have we looked into that? Are we in this loop at all? Do we know when they did this in the Comp Plan there must have been staff discussions? Is that on our radar screen? I know the recent thing with the development but – Little: Commissioner Huber, Mayor, Council Members and Commissioners we had a concern that there wasn’t a study behind any of the decisions at that point. That as far as (inaudible) crossing, environmental, or any analysis to back it up so we objected to feel there would be more study to make determinations and that was it. A lot of the infrastructure requirement was all out of the North Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 7 of 25 Meridian Area. It optimized them but it did propose we have some kind of a diagonal road from Black Cat to Ten Mile that would be out of the area and then of course river cross would be out of the area. They had desired to have their own fee area in regards to infrastructure. We had quite a difference in terms of the financial end of things. It would be very difficult to get another railroad cross if we were to try some kind of diagonal across there because between Franklin and Cherry you have the railroad crossing there. South of Franklin, you don’t have as much room (inaudible) railroads. Huber: What Terry because a lot of it’s going to ride on how the state feels if they can actually get it in their plan. Just off the top of your head, I’m assuming that it sounds to me like it’s 150 plus study. I don’t know and we don’t have anything in our five-year plan – Little: There’s certainly that the river crossing is a very expensive study. The one that we do on the three cities is what a million and a half or something? Huber: But I’m getting at timing on this because if by some coincidence the state does get it in a five year and it gets built in eight or whatever the time if it’s five do you know Katy? Because it seems to me we better really be a close coordination – Levihn: Mayor and Council this is something that we have heard about for about a year and I know we’ve had in house discussions. We’ve gone ahead with three cities enclosed in ACHD projects and more or less (inaudible) at the district level and verbal discussion talk with ITD about that they hardly (inaudible) we can’t afford to do both without significant federal funding. We’ve also had these discussions about how much of the connecting road by (inaudible) or State Highway 16 should be the State Highway. I think where we may be at (inaudible) in river crossing and the need for process you can’t predetermine in what role ITD wants to take and bare the misery (inaudible) City of Meridian and Star. It sounds like we’re kind of getting at that point where we really cut above the ground rules for who’s responsible and who should designate which corridor. Eastlake: I think as I understand it this is our CIP which shows that we have presumed that we are promptly going to be – if we adopt this CIP that we are going to be collecting impact fee monies based on projective costs of the Highway 16 extension and the improvements on Ten Mile. That’s a really serious issue if in fact we aren’t doing that. It seems to me that we better do this within the next month. Levihn: That’s counting discussions with the CIP consultants. They’re half of three cities and half of State Highway 16 in under ACHD assuming the other counts of each of those would be ITD. You could do one or the other or half and half or both. Yes that is a complicated issue. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 8 of 25 Eastlake: I think what’s in – I think what you’re talking about is the two river crossings are each half each assuming that the termini would be Chinden or on both of those. Whereas these improvements along Ten Mile are presumed to be 100 percent ours. Those maybe needed no matter what happens but I think we – what I’m talking about is figuring out if in fact Black Cat becomes the corridor how we get from – how we start – Levihn: Crossing over. Eastlake: -- crossing over and do we wait and come all the way down like Terry said get past the railroad tracks so that you don’t have to have another railroad – because we’re not going to do an overpass over the railroad track. I don’t think we can afford that. We need to figure out where these connections would be, get that at some kind of a long range look at right of way corridor preservation and then if this is out 20 years then we can’t put it in the CIP. If it’s within 20 years – Huber: Which is a different problem if it gets brought in earlier then that makes a real issue. Bird: Yes but why do we have to diagonal across why can’t we just come down. Just like Terry said earlier why not – Chinden is an awful nice road a heck of a lot better than Franklin or any other of our east west roads. We’ll just swing across, come over to Chinden, swing over to Ten Mile, and come straight down. Eastlake: But the problem is in my opinion there is so much development already on Ten Mile that I don’t think you could make it the limited access road. It seems to me that on Ten Mile it’s too late to go in and try to buy. Maybe it’s not. Bird: No, no. You’re probably right there. Another thing Black Cat is getting developed out too. Eastlake: Well see that’s – Bird: I mean we since that Comprehensive Plan we’ve probably put in two or three subdivisions between Ustick and Franklin that are the railroad (inaudible). Little: And then that’s where I wanted to pipe in. Thinking ahead, everybody agrees that the only way we could have prevented at Eagle Road was with the frontage resistance. If we’re looking at an Eagle Road type structure 20 years from now we’ve got to find a way to preserve the width for not only the five or seven (inaudible) – Eastlake: Yes and collect the impact fees. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 9 of 25 Little: -- but for the frontage roads. Now all of a sudden you’re talking I don’t know what it is two or 300 foot way potentially. In terms of subdivision, applications coming in now I think we all can see we’ve lost the opportunity on Ten Mile to do a true frontage. We may if we don’t get right on it – Bird: We’ve lost areas on Black Cat. Little: -- if we don’t get right on it we may lose the opportunity to do something like that on Black Cat. Then the decisions are all made for us and we just have another Eagle Road mess. Bird: Do you think the travels going to be that heavy as Eagle Road will be? I don’t know the way people come in from Emmett all the time you (inaudible). I understand it’s getting bigger and bigger. Olen: It kind of leads to the question I have. Maybe Katy can help fill us in on that. Where are we as far as ITD’s priority on Highway 16 and this Ten Mile couplet that we’re talking about across the river and hook up with the interstate? Levihn: It’s not on ITD’s list. They’re doing parts of the State Highway (inaudible) come up more suddenly. It has not been put on their five-year program at all. Huber: Katie suggested steps for us we’re kind of all in agreement and we’re kind of floundering here a little bit. What would be the steps? Everybody sees the issues and the problems what do we need to do? Levihn: I would suggest just off the top of my head without doing (inaudible) that all jurisdictions sit down together, decide whether this is a bridge crossing, and believe our ITD’s or ACHD’s. Then we have to get with FHWA for the parameters in there and the cities and see if we can’t get a corridor investigation in there. Huber: Who’s going to take the lead to call the meeting? Are we going to do that? I mean really if we’re going to do something we better get some – Levihn: We could do that did you want to – Bird: It’s between you and ITD. Huber: Okay so why don’t you take the lead to set up a meeting and start that. A lot of it if this falls out of ITD and the five million goes away and we’re not under the same – we still need the corridor. It will really change a lot. Levihn: With timing. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 10 of 25 Huber: Yes. Bird: Five million (inaudible). De Weerd: We had this conversation at a transportation workshop at the AIC conference. Star, Eagle, and the interim director of ITD so there was some discussion on it at – and it was discussed on Black Cat. I guess that’s why when I saw this CIP I was a little surprised it was looking at Ten Mile. The conversation has begun we just need to coordinate it and start solidifying and identifying roles. Eagle is interested as well because it has a good impact on them. Huber: So I guess if you do -- I mean we just haven’t been a part of the conversations apparently so that’s kind of the thing that – Levihn: Okay well I’ll see what I can do getting everybody together. I’ll call – I take it it was Charlie Rountree? De Weerd: No, it was Jim. Levihn: It was Jim (inaudible) and he might probably want to handle it with (inaudible) and we’ll get the conversation going. Huber: I suspect Kuna would be interested too because they’re trying to I think designate some commercial on Ten Mile. They’re assuming that Ten Mile I think is going to be five lanes all the way from here to the freeway I’m thinking. Eastlake: That’s a good question because one of the worst things you can do if you’re hoping to have a limited access highway is to designate commercial frontage. Because commercial is dependant on access. If what we’re talking about is having no access or limited access on this road then we would want the commercial to be identified on the connecting roads so that the places where there were you know say they were a one mile and half mile lights you would want the commercial to be located around those nodes. Then the rest of the frontage you would want to have lower use that accesses off of interior roads or something unless you’re just going to have an entire frontage road concept the whole way. Little: It may be different north of the freeway versus south of the freeway. Kuna is all south of the freeway so you may have one system south but I think the real demand is going to be from Gem County to the freeway so you may not have the same demands. Eastlake: Right and then it might not be Highway 16 going south. Highway 16 may – if ITD decides that Highway 16 is going to go below 44 and come down to the freeway it’s still not likely that 16 would continue south of the freeway right? Is there any likelihood the 16 would continue south? Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 11 of 25 Huber: No. Bird: There would be no room. Eastlake: So that would be our road. Yes Ten Mile would be our road. Huber: Yes Ten Mile and it would go between the freeway and back to Ten Mile and Hubbard is where they wanted their commercial it said in the paper. There is a lot of open ground we’re talking about in the next 20 years. Bird: Let me tell you something the way Kuna’s drawn. That road, that Ten Mile Road will be used to get to that freeway like you can’t believe. It will take a lot off of Meridian Road thank goodness but I’ll tell you if they can fly down there they will – Levihn: It sounds like we ought to get those parties together and decide who’s going to like head off a (inaudible) study to settle all these questions in the event that they (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) De Weerd: You may want to include Senator Bunderson because there has been a lot of discussion that I don’t even think unless the Mayor was involved that Meridian has been purvey to the – because I know Dennis had a lot more knowledge of it than I did where Linder is just a mile from Ten Mile. That’s why they thought it should go over to Black Cat. There were a lot of different justifications that I’m not really familiar with. I know Hal Bunderson has really been leading a lot of the Highway 16 discussion so he might be a good person to have involved as well. Eastlake: Now we don’t have any concerns about bringing in Canyon County we’re assuming the Ten Mile Interchange is the Ten Mile Interchange and there’s no need to talk about an interchange location right? De Weerd: No. Eastlake: It’s done as far as we’re concerned. Bird: As far as I know things better be. Huber: I think in Ada County there’s agreement. Bird: I hope Canyon County would like to give out two more. Corrie: Or Canyon County (inaudible). Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 12 of 25 Huber: Well that’s what I’m saying – Bird: Robinson Road is not going to work. How are you going to get somebody on going west and get somebody off going west to Garrity? You’re going to run into each other. Huber: Well I think those things will fall out just when you do studies. That kind of gets eliminated. Levihn: The public can let us know if there are big concerns in Canyon County (inaudible). Bird: We need to find out what corridor you’re going use so we can start on our applications now. Like I said, we’ve got some that are close – Huber: Well it’s going to be the same thing with you because (inaudible). Bird: Yes. Corrie: You can discuss different problems. Huber: Yes it will be different problems but you’re going to have – Bird: You’re going to have the same thing. Huber: -- the same thing if they’re designating corridors or commercial or whatever and it doesn’t mesh. Bird: And they are. Huber: And I know they are. Eastlake: But it sounds to me that as far as Kuna goes that it’s very unlikely that ITD is going to be responsible so we need to get that working right in house here as far as if we expect that to be any kind of limited access or controlled access on that part of Ten Mile. Bird: You can get all kind of right of way right now but give it another two or three years you might not be able to be in the right of way. Huber: Okay Katey well your list is growing longer. Levihn: Yes. Corrie: You can do it. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 13 of 25 Huber: Yes is there anything else that you want to add Katey? Levihn: No. Huber: Okay thank you. Item 3. Update on Right-of-Way Purchases for Locust Grove Overpass Project: Huber: Okay update on right of way purchases for Locust Grove. Randy. Lane: Madam President, Commission, and Meridian Council there are three projects related to that Meridian existing cost on Overland Locust Grove. We purchased (inaudible) that right of ways last February. We’re currently working on the Bentley to Franklin Locust Grove it’s scheduled that we have all parcels acquired by the end of September. The actual overpass project itself isn’t scheduled to start until some time next year since it’s fiscal year 2004 (inaudible). Corrie: Where are we on the environmental study? Lane: For the Federal Aid project? Corrie: Well no on the right of way or Locust Grove Overpass. What I understand that’s the big problem. Lane: That’s the big hang-up on the Federal Aid project and I’m not sure where they’re at. They’re talking in that (inaudible) next year. Huber: You don’t know how many parcels are left to purchase or where you are? Lane: We haven’t started on that project the Overland Overpass project. Bird: But we’ve been billed already. Lane: Right there are three projects associated with that project. We’re completed on the Locust Grove Overpass. Bird: Now wait a minute our agreement though for our money 1.8 is from Overland to Franklin. Lane: Right it’s broke out – Bird: Okay now what land is this that we’re buying that we’ve bought already? Whose property? Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 14 of 25 Huber: But actually if you don’t know right now I would suggest you get a map and give them a written so you know. Bird: We’re not going to pay until we know. Huber: Give them an accounting. Lane: Okay well we send our account – accountings already billed them for it. Bird: Yes accounting has already billed and that’s what we – what property is it? Is it the Bob Smith property, is it the Robinson’s property, or is it Joe Blows property we need to know that. Huber: And for any future billings, really they need to know. Bill them whatever that we should be showing them the parcel, the amount, and the cost. Show them the cost not include it because there is some things that was agreed to not so that whenever we bill them it should be easy for them to trace through and see their total. Bird: That’s right. That’s what we’ve got to have. Huber: That’s reasonable. Bird: What we pay. We’re not going to pay until we have that. Huber: That’s reasonable. Mr. Brown. Brown: President, Commissioners, and City Council I’m Kent Brown and Manager of Engineering. There was a question that had to about the environmental study and where they are in the design. Fortunately, I just got the new VCR book and so I’ll tell you what it says there. The design overall is about 45 percent right now. The consultant who is doing that is HDR. ITD has given approval of the cultural document, which the environmental documents are, more than just an environmental document they involve a cultural document of the resources that are in factor with regard to that. The current part of the environmental document they’re working on is the 4F document, which has to do with evaluation of the (inaudible) historical stuff that’s impacted by that. They’ve requested a Time Extension from ITD for getting that done. Other than that the construction is still – Huber: How much time? Brown: It doesn’t say. The construction is still tentatively scheduled for FY2006. Huber: So apparently it’s not changing the schedule. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 15 of 25 Brown: No it hasn’t changed the schedule. That’s the information I have. Huber: And so there would be a note on that that if anything occurs which would change the schedule that we should all be notified – something could happen that will change the schedule to let everybody know as soon as that starts popping up. Brown: I’ll talk to the coordinator on it. That’s one of our hot projects. I will do that. Bird: This is really – with that new Mountain View High School opening up this is really killing us I’m telling you. This is absolutely killing us. Eastlake: Well we’re going to have Overland (inaudible). Bird: You have Overland looking nice. Huber: They’re starting on Eagle Road too up to the (inaudible). Bird: You’re looking nice now but we have to get that (inaudible). Huber: I know all we need is money. That’s the only issue. Bird: That’s why we stepped up to put 1.8 in there to get it cleaned up. Huber: Oh I know. Is there any other questions or comments on that? The only thing that we need to get then for them is an accounting and then from any future billings be sure that they can really track their dollars. Brown: On the right of way. Bird: Yes. Eastlake: It would seem to me that a map of all of parcels that need to be purchased. Then just color the ones we’re billing for today are blue. These are the ones we’ve acquired. The next time they’re yellow and the next time they’re green or something. You can visibly see what you’ve – Huber: And you know that we’re not spending it on parcels associated with – Bird: Well we’re not worried about that at all. If our accounting – Huber: Mistakes happen. Bird: Oh I can understand that. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 16 of 25 Eastlake: Is that a warning? Huber: No, no that’s not a warning. Bird: Well we’re not going to pay until we know what we’re paying and as part of the agreement. Item 4. School Zone Signage: Huber: Okay than school zone signage. City of Meridian. Bird: Probably Bill can – Nary: I think the discussion I’m assuming is you’ve had some discussion about changing school zone speed limits like what Boise has. There is obviously an additional cost that goes along with that on the signage and I’m not sure what other discussion we were to have about that as what the cost is going to be. How many of those are going to need to be change? The police were supposed to do a survey of that to give us some idea of how many signs we’re talking about. We had also talked about demolition in parks. It’s the same issue of what kind of signage there’s a lot less parks than schools the park one may not be as big an impact physically. I’m not sure – Tammy do you know anymore there. I’m not sure what other (inaudible). Corrie: Other than they don’t like the 20 miles an hour with children present means nothing to the courts. It’s your word against theirs that there were children present. That’s one of the bit things that the Police Department’s calling about. Huber: Terry you must have gone through all this in Boise already. Little: Yes I have. Huber: You must have. Little: We did change out signs in Boise on the more of the minor streets. The decision of the committee task force included the school district, city, police, and the Council’s office was to have the all day limits on the lesser streets and the flashing beacons on the more major streets. They say those are most effective is when they start flashing in your face. We have changed out – a lot of the signs were old anyway so we have changed out those that took just a change of signing. Some of them we’ve had some back (inaudible). The police have asked us to go back to the when children are present on some of the remote crossings because there’s only 15 minutes twice a day there’s any kids there. It’s a quarter mile from the school so there’s some that we felt that those or a private school that hardly has any kids at it those kinds of things to tie up all day is just not Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 17 of 25 meaningful and it’s just being totally ignored unenforceable. We’re finding that there’s probably an application for all three. It seems kind of weird but as you drive around you find all three in different communities. Meridian has started out the task force in looking at beefing up the when children are present I assume the Council wanted to strongly have the all day in front of your schools anyway. When children are present was written very poorly in the Boise City Code and it just was unenforceable. Two officers would argue over what it meant. It just didn’t try to define when children are present. You couldn’t tell whether it meant they were in the school, school building they were present or not from reading the code. We would like them to allow us that application and use it as a – and put some teeth into it and write it so it’s more specific. We have gone to the all day ones. There are still some tickets out there that are being challenged in court and the put the thing off until September to see what happens there. There have been a lot of people that are a little bit upset about the tickets or they want to challenge that. We’ll see where that goes. Huber: What happens in Meridian? Does the Meridian School District have an opinion? Little: Well the Meridian School District was favoring a (inaudible) is when children is present. Bird: Like the existing ones are that what they’re – we understand that it’s just what you got through saying Terry is the tickets and stuff. What does it mean when children are present? The biggest concern that I’ve got is driving up and down Pine all the time is that you know they get it out on Pine. Your speed limit says well you’re a half a block from the school and after a certain 9:00 in the morning you don’t have kids out there or shouldn’t have kids out there but you still have that school warning sign. What do the people do? I have no problem driving 20 miles an hour I’m an old fogy. Little: It’s really nice to have consistency but I think the reality is that there isn’t a one size fits all. Your arterials may have different considerations than your collectors and your local streets may have different considerations as well. Just a little bit of history you know going back into the 80’s, we did have that all day thing. It was actually the Boise STEP team that came to us in the early 90’s and said well we’re getting so many complaints that would you consider going to the when children are present? We changed out gradually all the signs to when children are present. Then Boise City changed the position that because of the enforceability and other political considerations because some people it’s a neighborhood protection issue as well. The adjoining neighbors to work for their own reason. Then the City of Boise asked us to kind of consider going back to the signage we had in the 80’s. Apparently, on a couple of routes, they now asked us to go back to when children are present once again. There does get to be some (inaudible) on changing out the signs all the time. I think the bottom line is – I think the one thing everybody has senses on is on the arterials. If we Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 18 of 25 can do those flashing beacons, those are optimal but those cost a lot of money. You can’t do those everywhere so the goal is to put those on the arterials. Then on the local streets if you don’t really have a speeding problem perhaps some of the when children are present still might be appropriate because you don’t want to be slowing people down all day every day even for that 15 minutes when the kids are going back and forth. That’s the problem with the all day thing. On the collectors, you probably need to go more to the all day thing just because it’s too hard to enforce when children are present. It may be that you need some combination of all three. With respect to the Meridian Elementary School’s they’ve made a real effort to put those more on the local streets. It may be that when children are present will actually work on a local street except for enforceability problem. Then your middle schools and high schools tend to be on the collectors and arterials and there they either needs to be flashing where you just slow down all day. On those schools, there is so much throughout the day. Elementary’s that’s about 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the afternoon but your middle school’s and high school’s that is pretty much all day. It may be that we don’t want to oversimplify this as a one size fits all but we want this in every application or we want that in every application. I know again, ideally, it would be nice to have consistency but this may be an area where the advantages of consistency are outweighed by the disadvantages of what will work on each side. ***End Of Side One*** Eastlake: What’s the speed limit on local streets in Meridian? Corrie: In Meridian they’re 25. Eastlake: They’re 25 okay. You do have a distinction between the speed limit and with local streets? Okay so then there wouldn’t have to be a sign. Can an ordinance not be written? Can an ordinance not be written that says what when children are present would mean. Bird: Bill’s got something. I think he knows. He’s been quiet back there. Nichols: Madam President, Commissioners, Mayor and Council there will be a proposed ordinance brought forth to the Meridian City Council shortly it’s being drafted by Allison Tate the prosecutor at Boise City Attorney’s Office. Boise City does Meridian prosecution. I’ve seen the draft and reviewed it. The singing issue I apologize for not bringing the email was an issue that was raised in an email from Allison I think like Wednesday last week. I told Will there should be some discussion (inaudible) something else besides me who would pay attention to email and I apologize. With regard to the definitions though, Allison has written a very tight definition of why (inaudible) and partly from her experience at Boise City. It’s a pretty good definition of when children are present. I will tell you the State of Oregon that’s what they do it’s when children are present and Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 19 of 25 there’s a definition for it. It works over there (inaudible) generally is a definition much tighter (inaudible) we can provide a draft of the ordinance to your staff to whomever you want it to have look at it (inaudible). That’s where that one’s at. Huber: But then, what it is that Meridian is asking of us to do now. Do you just want the discussion or you want – Nichols: Madam President I think it’s my fault for not having brought the email with me so I could address Allison’s question. (Inaudible) I haven’t been involved in a draft and now there’s a question about the signage. How does that get (inaudible), who pays for it or how you designate which ones go where and those kinds of issues? I frankly, didn’t pay close enough attention to them – Huber: How are we handling that with Boise? Wynkoop: In terms of the payment? Huber: Yes the cost. Wynkoop: We have picked it up on the streets we’ve done which have been a (inaudible) number of grade schools. They have the 20-mile an hour speed so it didn’t effect percentage wise on the schools it didn’t effect that many. A lot of them were older signs. We had hoped that the 100-dollar sign would also put that 100 dollars citation on there too. We had hoped that that would be able to come in and the committee’s idea was well that can pay for upgrades, flashing beacons and all of that. Well that didn’t come through. There was a change order at the courthouse and all that supposedly affecting that. They didn’t come forth with any money but we’ve changed out oh about 16 schools or something like that with (inaudible) more like 10 I think. The masses of schools haven’t been effected yet or haven’t been changed out. A lot of them we want to go with the flashing beacons. That was like a half million dollar number when you put all those together. Huber: So you haven’t really sat down with the Boise School District, the police and had the same thing to start the plan for Meridian for the same thing. That’s kind of what I’m hearing of really where we are is if we needed – at least get the plan and everybody in agreement and then financially we’re not going to do it all at once anyway. Bird: Well if our signs say when children are present which I know they already do and Allison has got that then this ordinance is tight enough which evidently thank goodness from what they’ve worked on the Boise one they have a pretty good idea of what the wording she needs in there. We might not have to change the signs. If we’ve got our ordinance so that they can prosecute to the point, you know if they have the wording right. When Bill, Allison and of course this Bill Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 20 of 25 takes a look at it too and you guys and stuff and it’s tight enough we won’t have to change the signs then it won’t be no problem. Nary: I think Commissioner Wynkoop really hit in on the head. It really isn’t a one-size fits all and I think your approach is really where we need to go. In fact Susan just said too, one of the things we’ve had brought up to us is that our minimal speed is too high. We’ve brought the – because it also applies to not only local streets but alleys. We’ve had – very visual (inaudible) remind us that 25 miles in alley is significant. Now we have (inaudible) if we can address the minimum speed both for local streets, alleys and adjacent to parks we’ll have covered a majority of a lot of the same problems. Lowering them to 20 we can deal with a lot of them (inaudible) school like Keith said we don’t have to change out a lot of signs then we only need to address the ones that are on the arterials. Once they get the bigger ones then we may have to put hours of operation. Little: One final practical consideration most of the Boise schools are old so a lot of their signs that needed changed so in the 90’s when they changed them out you know it was kind of you know. Where as most of the Meridian schools are fairly new so the signs in front of the Meridian schools are relatively new and really don’t need to be changed that much unless the city determines that. Nary: That was part of the police (inaudible) saying where do we really need this so that we can really differentiate between ones that are local street types of application like Commissioner Wynkoop said a lot of our schools are on local streets. The ones we really need to address that as either time of day, hours of operation, all the time whatever it is. Huber: Are there any – then you also need to identify I’m trying to think of the older schools in Meridian if you need any up at Lincoln that are on arterials. You have Cherry Lane – Bird: Well but we’ve all right good lights. The middle school is set up very nice. Huber: So you may not have any or they’re going to go in as a school zone. Nary: The next one will be on Linder. Bird: Yes or Locust Grove. Eastlake: Have we put up the fee on any of the Meridian schools? Huber: The 100-dollar fine. Eastlake: Just attach that to an existing sign is that – Bird: Our ordinance hasn’t been changed. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 21 of 25 Huber: But when you change it, we can just put stickers on there 100-dollar fine. No, I mean we don’t want to put a whole new sign but can you make – Little: It’s an actual additional width. The message takes up all the sign. Eastlake: It just goes on to the – Nary: It goes on the same thing. Little: But one thing we did do that just went through the City of Eagle was the idea of changing over from 25 to a 20 base limit. They decided to stick with the 25 but we gave them an estimate on how many signs that would be and that does amount to quite a lot of change out signs for 25 to 20. Instead, we ended up doing the entering city limits 25 unless otherwise present there. The decision was decided – they went with (inaudible). That does end up being a lot of signs. The local streets as you come off Cherry Lane, as you come off Franklin you know those streets where we have a 25 would have to 20. That’s what I understand you’re saying lower your base defector limits 20 on all residential streets. Huber: So we don’t need to do anything? (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) Bird: If you remember a few years ago Pine was a major street through there. Corrie: Yes well that was two years. Nary: Yes just to add onto that I guess that would be part of our discussion as whether or not it’s part, switch them all or to go the opposite and designate certain types of areas whether it’s alleys or parks or schools or whatever as a 20 or something. Then only have the sign the specific locations rather than (inaudible). I don’t think we’re there I just know we’ve had that brought to us a number of times that minimum speed of 25 that applies in streets and alleys doesn’t make sense. Little: We had talked about with regard to the alley since they’re in the location as getting the streets to come in there and just say alleys 15 or whatever they are on a sign entering rather than trying to post each alley. You don’t have a width to drive let alone. Nary: Some of them are already two ways. Huber: To summarize this then is it the city that would call a meeting to coordinate this with the Highway District and the schools and the police. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 22 of 25 Bird: Yes. Huber: So someone within the city needs to as soon as you do your ordinance you’ll do that. Bird: Yes and then we’ll get you a copy of the draft ordinance for you guys to look over too so if you see – you and your staff sees anything that is not right let us know. We do have the advantage of what Boise’s already going through thank goodness. Little: Meridian already has a task force. They’re the only community I think that’s part of their own safety community. There is an infrastructure to start with if you want to use them. Huber: And the schools on it? Little: The school is part of – Huber: So okay that just needs to get put on their agenda. De Weerd: And it is. They have been discussing it. Bird: Yes once they get the draft ordinance they’ll look it over to the safety committee and report back to us. You guys need to look it over too and see if you see any policies that have fit you guys. All the experience we get (inaudible). De Weerd: I know we’re out of time but the work on Franklin as the timeframe can be sent to our fire station. They need to know when the roads are going to be torn up in front of the station for emergency access issues. If someone could coordinate that. Huber: Who will designate that Mr. Brown? De Weerd: Is it in your book? Huber: Well – somebody whoever the project manager is needs to be in constant contact because we know that changes and so we need to keep them posted so they’re not caught off guard. Wynkoop: The Mayor was just asking me since I came in late as did a couple of others if the one way streets were all solved. Huber: Yes we didn’t talk about it. It was supposed to be the couplet. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 23 of 25 Eastlake: It was just the couplet. Corrie: Because my phone is ringing off the hook. There’s a lot to be done. Bird: We said that we were going to – after the budget was done we were going to have a Public Hearing and then that’s when it comes to these people. We have to hear our Public Hearing first. I don’t know how Jonathan got that printed in the Statesman. Corrie: I don’t either but I have a phone call into him. I’ll also call his boss. Huber: Mr. Brown. Brown: Are we still on schedule at (inaudible) 2004. While I’m doing it, I’ll address the other question about Locust Grove. We will contact the fire station and make sure we understand what we have scheduled in the fiscal year 2004 and tell them back there we’ll be deciding when it’s going to be ready for advertising. I’ll get with the project manager and touch base with the Fire Department. Huber: Yes just so we put a note down that we – Brown: And the other thing (inaudible) also shared with me that Locust Grove has not yet impacted the schedule but we’re going to schedule things (inaudible). We will keep on that and let you know if it does. Bird: Yes please don’t let him back it down anymore. Corrie: I have a question. Brown: Well we’re having a lot of problems with the Federal Aid projects. Bird: I know you do. Huber: Yes Federal Aid is – Brown: Several problems. Bird: Well it wasn’t two years (inaudible) ITD brought Federal Aid anyway. Corrie: I have a question that’s come to my office quite a few times. Who owns the southeast corner of Franklin and Locust Grove? You or the owners (inaudible) we’re going to have high-rise apartments there. Who owns that where that water comes down? Franklin Road Locust Grove meets together that southeast corner. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 24 of 25 Huber: Do you know something about that? (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) Bird: Doesn’t Brice Peterson still own that? Corrie: So it’s the southwest corner that you had? Nary: That little crick running through there, that one? (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) Bird: Well then that’s the southwest corner that we approved for the apartments. That was Brice Peterson. Corrie: Yes everybody’s calling and saying that that’s owned now by ACHD. Huber: The southwest or the southeast. Corrie: Southwest. Bird: Southwest and that’s the one we approved for the apartments. Huber: I think Anna and Randy both must have some – go ahead Anna. Powell: I know a little bit about it. I know that there was a portion that ACHD did I believe (inaudible) is not the whole parcel. There is a little bit there but it’s largely undevelopable. Southwest. Bird: It will be part of the right of way you’ll have to purchase. Powell: So it’s not exactly Brice Peterson’s it’s Bews’s mother in law. (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) Huber: And you’re in agreement Randy that’s what you think too. Lane: Yes. Bird: Wouldn’t that have been part of the Locust Grove for the overpass? The right of way wouldn’t you have to purchase some of that corner anyway? Lane: Some of it I can go pull up the map on that. Corrie: That’s okay. Meridian City Council Special Joint Meeting with ACHD Commission July 14, 2003 Pg 25 of 25 Bird: I think Brice still owns the majority of the property Mayor. Corrie: Okay. Huber: Whatever it is we know we don’t own a large parcel. We own some right of way but it’s not – if someone’s thinking that, we own this piece – Corrie: Well that’s why I kept telling him that they don’t. Huber: -- he’s going to confirm it but I don’t know why we would have bought that. Bird: You probably bought some across the road too on the south. Corrie: That’s all marshy land in there and you would have to have them to control it to wind the road anyway. I wouldn’t think you (inaudible) other part in the apartments that’s going in there or supposedly going in there. The last I heard (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst Members) Item 5. Other (time permitting): Huber: I guess we’ve motivated to other by default. Is there any other item? If not do we want to adjourn so people can get back. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK