Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 02-27 SpecialMeridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 The special meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 6:35 P.M. on Wednesday, February 27, 2002, by Mayor Robert Corrie. Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Keith Bird, Bill Nary, Cherie McCandless, and Tammy de Weerd. Others Present: Shari Stiles, Brad Hawkins-Clark, Steve Siddoway, Bill Nichols, and Will Berg. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird X Mayor Robert Corrie Corrie: We will have roll-call attendance of the Council, please, Mr. Berg. Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Corrie: Number two is adoption of the agenda. Council, we see the agenda has three parts. The agenda, for Public Hearing for proposed amendments to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian. Do I hear a motion to adopt the agenda? McCandless: Mr. Mayor, I move we adopt the agenda. Nary: Second. Corrie: Motion made and seconded to adopt the agenda for the Public Hearing. All those in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES Item 3. Public Hearing: Proposed Amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for the City of Meridian: Corrie: Before I open the Public Hearing, lets lay a few ground rules so that you all know what we are doing and we want to see everybody who wants to testify get the opportunity to testify. We have sign up sheets in the back. You have all – the ones who have talked to us on this, I have the sign up sheets up here. You just come in, Steve will catch you and of course, I am not talking to those who aren't here yet – but we do have the sign up sheets here, you must sign up in order to testify, so that we have a record of what is said. At this time we are going to take up – we have a sign up for the neighborhood centers and incentives. We have one person signed up for that. Transportation, one person signed up for that. For priority growth areas, urban services, one person signed up for that. That happens to be the same person on all three. So we are going to give a three-minute timetable here, and Dave Turnbull is the first one – we Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 2 of 27 are going to do all three of those, Dave. I know you don’t like to talk, so we will give you ten minutes since you have three for each one of those and throw in a minute just in case you do that. I will open the Public Hearing at this time and invite people who signed up to testify and give us information. First, we will have Dave Turnbull. Neighborhood centers, incentives, transportation and property growth. Now do you want us to time you on each one of those or do you want to take the full ten minutes? Turnbull: Who is holding the stopwatch? Corrie: Right over here, our attorney, second attorney. (Inaudible) Turnbull: Tell me when my time starts. However, you want to do it. Corrie: Raise your right hand. Is the testimony you are about to give, the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? Turnbull: Yes. Corrie: Thank you. Give your name and address and you are on your way. Turnbull: David Turnbull, 12426 W. Explorer Drive, in Boise. I appreciate the opportunity to come here and address the Council. I was a little unclear on how this was going to run coming in, so I don’t have any specific prepared comments. I just saw the sign up sheets and put my name on some that looked of interest. What was the order that you had there Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Neighborhood centers and incentives, transportation, and priority growth areas. Turnbull: The neighborhood centers are something that probably are going to take some working through as the process goes along. I think that its probably something new to this area and a new concept that actually I am supportive of -- in fact somebody from your staff had one of the radio stations call me this afternoon for an interview about neighborhood centers – was that you Shari? Anyway, we are supportive of them. We are doing a similar type of concept in our Harris Ranch project in east Boise. That is just getting started. We have just submitted an application for property in Meridian, the north Meridian area that would include neighborhood center in the locations designated on the map. There probably will be some issues of semantics of what neighborhood centers means and what they can really support and what they provide. My concept may be little different than what staff envisions. I think as we have gone through the north Meridian planning effort, we have actually kind of redefined it. The typically planning term for neighborhood center includes a grocery store and those typical kind of services that are five to ten acres in size. I think that the way we are envisioning it and defining it in our own planning process is more of a village center where you can provide spaces for small service retail, for professional offices and the like. I think the Council is going to need to remain flexible on that concept and see how it evolves and develops over time. But I do think it is something worthwhile in considering. I think there was some discussion in the Planning and Zoning process Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 3 of 27 about whether they should be located on the maps. I think that the Planning and Zoning Commission came down with the idea and Councilman Nary can clarify this for me, but kind of to leave it more in a conceptual form and provide some incentives to encourage those types of centers. I am certainly in favor of that. I think I could pause at this moment for any questions you might have of me on neighborhood centers. Corrie: Council, any questions? Turnbull: What was the next topic? Corrie: Transportation. Turnbull: Transportation. I actually have brought with me – remember sitting in Albuquerque New Mexico in June of 2001 when it was going through the planning and zoning process. I was there for my son’s regional soccer tournament. I had – I would go back to the hotel because this thing was on the front burner, and type out my comments – I think I had seven pages. I emailed in and I have seen them included in the staff reports but I haven't seen a lot of my comments really addressed yeah or nay. So I have an extra copy that I would like to give to you and I would encourage you to read it and I think a lot of things may have – a lot of it has to do with language in the text that I have some issues with. A lot of the – my opening comment is very supportive is very supportive of what the staff has done. I think that the vision that they put forward is a positive one. There are just some points that I think need to be considered so I am going to give this to you and I would ask that the Council members actually read it and compare it with the text. I really don’t know where the text stands anymore because there have been so many redlines that I don’t think -- it is kind of getting hard to follow. Corrie: Please give that to the clerk and he will make copies for everyone involved. Turnbull: I think one of my comments in here was – probably two comments. One had to do with – I think it was something to do with larger developments having impacts on the system. It seems to suggest that they have greater impacts on the system. That is all a matter of proportion. Obviously a small development – when you bundle a bunch of small developments together, they can actually have more impact than one large well- planned development that is taken into account. Different transportation issues within a planned development or master plan community type of format. The other thing that I would point out is that Meridian is actually ideally suited for its transportation needs. It lacks a lot of the natural geographic boundaries that other parts of the county have like the river and things like that – so really we have a well defined grid system and not a lot of expensive type of projects like the Curtis Road extension or the West Parkcenter Bridge. So, Meridian needs to give itself credit for the type of transportation system that is in place. Obviously some of those systems are going to be expanded and improved as development comes along but it is a much easier area to work in than other areas of the county. I guess that is where I will pause on transportation and see if you have any questions for me on that issue. Corrie: Questions? Priority growth areas. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 4 of 27 Turnbull: Priority growth areas. That is of particular interest to me. I think that the original concept was to have it urban services planning area which would restrict growth past a certain point. I think that the Planning and Zoning Commission dealt with that very well and very ably. I am – and I request of this Council that they affirm the way that the Planning and Zoning Commission handled that. I think I that there are great opportunities to come up with some new development standards and patterns that will greatly benefit the City of Meridian without the need for drawing a line on the map, some kind of artificial line on the map. In fact, I was reading in a magazine a couple months ago, and I cut this out because I thought it was interesting. This is an article by Wendell Cox. He is a consultancy firm who has worked for the US Department of Transportation, Urban and Mass Transportation Administration and so forth. He has worked internationally. The tile of the article is Urban Growth Boundaries Fence Out Minorities. The subheading is an elitist assault on the American dream could also retard overall economic growth. If anyone wants to read this article I will make it available but basically the point is and what happens when you see this, Portland is sometimes looked at as this Mecca for urban planning and they have incorporated urban growth boundaries. Boulder has done the same thing. There may be some positive aspects to that but really what it does is it drives up the price of ground and it drives up the price of housing so that no body – well, we need to recognize that 90 percent of our population needs affordable housing. We would like to think that everybody could have nice expensive homes but not everybody can afford it. And urban growth boundaries set some artificial boundaries that drive up the prices of not only land but development and housing. If you restrict your development patterns that way you are essentially restricting competition and lack of competition is what drives up prices. I guess I would ask you to affirm what the Planning and Zoning Commission did and then I will stand for any questions regarding that matter. Corrie: Questions? Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Please go back to the neighborhood centers David. The location of them. We have our mixed-use and stuff in the middle of the miles and then we – is that the ideal locations or corners – in your opinion? Turnbull: I don’t think any of us know what the ideal locations will be. I think – I don’t mean to diminish the effort that the planning staff has put into it. I think they have tried to put the right locations, to pick the right locations, but none of us are going to be able to pick those locations in advance. Even the most savvy retailer and commercial developer is not going to be able to pick those locations in advance. I also have a fear that putting those on the map seems to indicate that the corners, the intersections are not appropriate for commercial or retail development. I will tell you from a market perspective that the major retail anchors what we define as a neighborhood center which is like the grocery store shopping center or even more of a community scale shopping which these areas are going to need. Lets not try to think or even suggest all of our community, our regional shopping centers are going to go to Eagle Road and the interstate or Meridian Road and the interstate. They need to be dispersed more widely Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 5 of 27 over the community or we will have more severe traffic problems in this community. I think there is a place for them, I think you will see what I am tending to define as a village center or the staff’s definition of a neighborhood center – you see it in some of the west bench areas around midsection lines like Milwaukee and Ustick Roads or some of those places where you can have professional offices and small retail services. To say that this is the location where they are going to be is probably a good goal but you are going got have to remain flexible on it because we can put all the things on the map we want and if the users won’t come, it won’t happen. Corrie: Mentioning Portland and Boulder Colorado, I understand what you are saying – I have lived in Boulder twenty years ago and seeing what happened to their plan of their limited growth – you are absolutely right. Houses are – cannot afford to live in them anymore. It is had a problem and I hope we don’t do that here because I still have friends that live there and they don’t know how they are doing it anyway. Turnbull: Once you sell out and try to go back twenty years later you might not be able to do that. Corrie: My $25,000 home, I sold it when I left, just sold for $450,000. So, I know what you are saying. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Thank you David. Next, one who signed up for the land use map between I-84 and Ustick Road, a Tonya Blackwood. Is Tonya here? 659 E. Edgar Street. Well maybe we will come back to that one. The next one, land use map, between – Stiles: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Yes? Stiles: Sorry to interrupt you -- I believe someone just came in who would like to address that area. Corrie: Which one? Stiles: Between the freeway and Ustick Road. Corrie: Richard Willis -- Richard please raise your right hand. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? Willis: It is. Corrie: I would like your name and address please. Willis: My name is Richard Willis. I live at 3555 Montvue Drive. First of all I would like to commend the city on the planning process. I think it is a big step forward for the city to have a written plan to guide how the city will develop in the future and something for you to consider anytime you have a new development. Having said that, I guess I would like to express a little bit of frustration with what has gone on. Particularly as it relates to our subdivision and the way the plans continuously change. It seems like every time a new plan comes out, a new map, you have a new designation for our subdivision. By Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 6 of 27 way of explanation when we started this way back when, the designation for that property was mixed planned use, when in reality it was probably low density residential because it is made up of 26 families, the subdivision is, residing on half acre to two acre lots when the first plan came out put together by staff. They had designated us as medium density residential and quite frankly we didn’t understand that because here we are, we front on two sides of the busiest intersection in the state of Idaho. We front on the highway that you plan to designate as a gateway to the community and we couldn’t understand why you wanted that to be a residential neighborhood, particularly since commercial or quasi-commercial properties had been approved on all four sides of that subdivision. So I went and talked to staff and basically what they told us was you know, your subdivision was overlooked in the planning process. The next time the map came out, it was designated commercial, which is what all of the residence of the subdivision desired for that piece of property. Of course we were pretty happy with that designation until that map went out for public comment. After you went through a series of public comments, you published a new map and all of the sudden we are mixed-use. Again we are trying to find out why we had the change. We went back and read all the public comments you had received concerning that piece of property, and there were two comments, one from a resident of the neighborhood stating that – well basically commending the city on the planning process. The other comment was from our large neighbor to the south, who indicated that commercial was not the proper designation for that property and it ought to be mixed-use. That map then went to Planning and Zoning. That was the map that they used in their Public Hearings. Again we went through the process, gave testimony, did all that we should do and low and behold the next map that came out, we’re commercial. Then the much for our dismay, about three weeks ago or four weeks ago, the new map comes out and we see that the staff has decided or maybe it was a unilateral decision that no, we shouldn’t be commercial, we should be mixed-use. I guess the question I have is, first of all what is the role of the Public Hearing process and what is the role of staff in this whole process. The Planning and Zoning’s decisions were overruled by staff, why do we go through that process? Why do we go through all the trouble of having Public Hearings and taking testimony? That took weeks and weeks and months and months. They came out with their best recommendation and then staff overrules it. If you look at the map, I think we are the only property on the whole map up there that staff has taken the prerogative to change the Planning and Zoning recommendation. I guess that is it, I would just like an answer to that question, and would take any questions from you folks. Corrie: Anybody want to take a stab at it? Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Willis are you talking about this map? Willis: Yes sir. Nary: Just so you know, and I don’t know if you were at the meeting or not, we do have your written comments as well. But this is just what is recommended by the staff and the reason was, if you recall at the Planning and Zoning Commission, part of the Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 7 of 27 discussion was having commercial with a conditional use component to it. The reason the staff made the recommendation of mixed-use is because at the Planning and Zoning level, the mixed-use definition was changed that if it was under five acres, over five – or under five acres I think, I didn’t have to have two uses on the property, which is what part of the concern was I guess by the residents. What they were looking at was trying to sell that property to one developer with one use. By the mixed-use, it would prohibit that while the commercial use would allow it. That was part of their concern. By changing the mixed-use definition, it would still allow it to be sold to one developer with one use and it would allow for the conditional use, which is part of what the Commission had recommended. It hasn’t been changed yet. This is what the staff has recommended. They have recommended that, so they haven't changed it like it may seem to you. Their reason was not just to unilaterally change it, it was based on what the comments from Montvue were, as well as what the Commission was trying to accomplish. It doesn’t mean that that is what we are going to do, but that is the rationale behind it. Willis: I appreciate that explanation. I just think if the city’s Planning and Zoning recommends there should be commercial, and then the map should show the commercial with an asterisk perhaps saying staff – Nary: We have a lot of map and on the map that came from Planning and Zoning, it is still recommended as commercial, but the map that is now recommended by the planning staff is recommended to be mixed-use for those reasons. We have not picked that yet, just so you know. Corrie: That is why we need the public input, so we get what you are really wanting. Thank you, Mr. Willis. Brad Miller on the land map use between I-84 and Ustick Road. Is he out there? Are you okay with that? Cathy Jerrems. I apologize ahead of time if mess up your name, I don’t mean to, but please correct me if you need to. Raise your right hand – is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Jerrems: Yes sir. Corrie: Thank you, give your name, and address please. Jerrems: Cathy Jerrems, 3245 S. Locust Grove. Corrie: If you came late – we are trying to limit this to three minutes, so we will put you on the clock. Jerrems: I can do it quicker than that. I live on the corner, on the southwest corner of Victory and South Locust Grove. My understanding is that they are going to do a center in the middle of – on Victory Road in middle between Locust Grove and Eagle. I have some real concerns about that. First of all, the traffic that has been generated by subdivisions down that roadway, we have already had multiple accidents of people trying to come out of that subdivision. Of course now we are talking about subdivisions on the opposite side of the road as well. The concern that I have is having that area being more congested than it is currently, because again, we are already having Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 8 of 27 problems in that area with people trying to come out of the subdivisions. The other request or proposal that I would have is that the 7.9 acres that I have on that corner with that little hand, I would request that we make that a multi-use rather than residential, as I understood that was the original proposal a number of years ago. At least it was in discussion at that time. That is about all I have to say. That is the two issues I would like to see or propose anyway. Thank you. Corrie: Thank you. Any questions from Council? Thank you Cathy. Sue Howard? We are still on this between I-84 and Ustick Road is Tanya Blackwood here yet? Still not here? Okay, neighborhood centers, and incentives. We had Larry Durkin signed up. Larry? Raise your right hand – is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Durkin: I do. My name is Larry Durkin. My address is 1505 Tyrell Lane in Boise. I really wanted echo David’s comments for the record. I have testified a number of times at Planning and Zoning on the neighborhood centers concept. I think the concept is sound. I think the locations could be viable, but I think they also could change, and I encourage you to keep an open mind and make sure we all remember the record as we go down the road, it could shift slightly, and I think the plan allows for that. I really wanted to recommend to you that you adopt that incentive plan that was in the recommendation from Planning and Zoning. I think that that is important. It will be important to get these kicked off and get them started. I wanted you to know that I traveled to a couple of different cities and looked at these in the last six months. I found them to be viable and successful just yesterday I was in Spokane, and there is an area they are redoing on the south hill for neighborhood centers – it isn't on the corner its off the corner, and I really – its definitely a trend. So that is my comment on neighborhood centers. I have got a lot of testimony at Planning and Zoning and lots of different meetings. I would be happy to answer any questions on that. Corrie: Questions? You also have the priority growth areas and urban services. Durkin: I really just wanted to echo David’s comments on that. I think his comments are sound. I also believe that the adoption of an urban service boundary could really have the possibility of putting the entire plan in limbo, I don’t think it is a wise idea – I think that it will cause a lot of problems for the city as you go down the road. I encourage you to follow the Planning and Zoning’s recommendations there. Corrie: Thank you. Any questions? De Weerd: This is a record. Corrie: We had the neighborhood centers incentives – we had one more sign up, Jon Wardle. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? Wardle: It is. For the record my name is Jon Wardle, my address is 50 Broadway Avenue in Boise. Just brought to my attention by Mr. Siddoway that on the neighborhood centers, I guess – let me back up. The last hearing that we had, which was a work session amongst staff and yourselves, there was a discussion of what, and Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 9 of 27 this a crosshair between mixed-use and neighborhood centers, but should there be a hierarchy of neighborhood centers and/or mixed-use? It seemed like we were designating a lot of things as mixed-use, and what exactly did that mean? Mr. Siddoway pointed out that they came up with a proposal today, kind of a hierarchy for different type of neighborhood centers, which we had done some work on in regards to the north Meridian area plan, and some of those concepts we brought in were – I am not sure where they stand, if they are just concepts or if we will be able to expand on those a little more, but we would like to be involved in that. I think we do need to have a hierarchy of these neighborhood centers, definitely the market is going to dictate where those centers will occur. I don’t know that I have much more to add to that, other than talking about incentives. When it comes right down to it, we need to find a way that if we come up with these neighborhood centers and way that they should be designed, and the development community who is going to be implementing these are in agreement, we need to find a way that we can expedite these so they can have them sooner than later and you don’t get caught in a long period of time to get a Public Hearing. I know that was kind of suggested, Mr. Durkin was part of that process. There was a session amongst staff and some members from the public, I think we just need to fine tune it a little more and get more specific on how that might occur and what the ordinances would be to implement those incentives. So we would just like to be involved as the neighborhood centers, and their definitions are tweaked and fine-tuned – that goes for the mixed-use also. I signed up for that one also, so I am just covering that. Will there be a point in this hearing just for general comments, later on? Corrie: Probably – yes. We are not that rigid. We don’t have that many here – Wardle: Then I will just wait until we get to that point. Thank you. Corrie: I guess the next one we have here will be schools, parks and open space. We have two people signed in for that, Brad Miller and Wendell. So, Brad Miller? (Inaudible) Corrie: Sounds like there is something going on back there. However, the negotiations really ought to take place up here. Wendell? Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Bigham: Yes. Wendell Bigham, 911 Meridian Street, Meridian Idaho 83642. Here representing Joint School District number two. I hope to be finished in two minutes. I would like to thank Council and staff for the opportunity to participate in this process. As you are aware, we have been before you at various meetings, and we have had a number of productive meetings with staff as we fine tune some of the demographic information and try to understand where the school district fits and how we should participate proactively with in the grander vision of the Comprehensive Plan. We thank you for that opportunity. To give you a brief overview of where we stand on a couple issues, we are essentially neutral or supportive of growth. We don’t directly benefit from growth unless you consider increasing the student enrollment a benefit. So, we generally come after the fact in relation to the development. It has to do with our funding, as you are all aware of. We try to maintain a neutral stance on growth. But we are very supportive of the planned growth process. The north Meridian planning area, in Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 10 of 27 unto itself has allowed the district quite frankly to do some good planning that we probably have not done in the past and we are finding out some interesting things out of that process and maybe we can continue that discussion onto the Comprehensive Plan. What I have handed out is just a little fact sheet, and I want to take just a moment to step through that with you. Again it is beating the drum that we are an essential public service and that we are a substantial player within the community, in several respects. The information presented here goes from vary factual hard information to somewhat subjective and more of a best estimate of what something might look like. The first, top of the page, we talk about capacity issues, you have all seen that. It is kind of a statement of schools capacities and the relationship of elementaries to middle schools to high schools. The middle section is defined as the north Meridian planning area. Those are numbers that we kind of agree on, 18,000 homes plus or minus, seems to be what the developers are recommending in the north planning area, that ten square miles. The interesting numbers that come out of that ten square miles – somewhere between ten and eleven elementary schools, three and a half middle schools and two and a half to three high schools based upon the latest census information. We know those numbers to be pretty accurate. The section below that is kind of an investment – it actually originated from a question that Shari generated. What percent of land do we use? The Comprehensive Plan really doesn’t speak to it in an accurate way. So, I looked at it from both the three square miles, three elementary schools, one middle school and one middle school needs two-thirds of a high school. So I looked at it a couple different ways, extrapolated it out through the north Meridian planning area if you will. Roughly six percent of the land is public school land that we are going to use. The investment by the District is about 22 million dollars per square mile, that is your taxpayer’s fund. If the planning area and the Comp Plan is taken in its entirety, there could be upwards of 60,000 students in the forty square miles within the Comprehensive Plan. Numbers that we are going to be growing rapidly. We are in support of the neighborhood concept, center concept, we are aggressively trying to develop and provide for your comment and review a site acquisition map that may or may not be tied to the neighborhood locations. We are always willing to have those discussions with the developer, we think it is very prudent, so we are in support of the neighborhood centers. Corrie: Okay. Lets go to the land use map between Ustick Road and Chinden Boulevard. We have six people signed up for that one. GE Blumenschein – Thank you. I should know you George, I said, boy that name sounds familiar, and it dawned on me who you are. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Blumenschein: It is, thank you. By looking at the two maps, I would really suggest that the Council get together with the auto club so you can guys can get your maps together. Corrie: Give me your name, please, so it shows on the record, sir. Blumenschein: No problem, thank you. My name is George E. Blumenschein. I am at 2911 W. Ravenhurst in Meridian. I guess one of my testimonies here is that I would like you guys to know my face because I plan to be in your face a lot because I am babysitting my corner at Ustick and Ten Mile. I know we have had a lot of discussions on the maps, tentative maps, and maps changes this, that and everywhere. I want to Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 11 of 27 be involved with these City Council meetings so that nothing does get by us because of our ignorance and that I am really concerned about what is going in there whether it is a dump or a politically correct transfer station or whatever it may be. So I am here to first of all, view my opposition, -- you know I like that map over here, don’t care for this map over here. So I know that you as a Council, as a group or as the City of Meridian, obviously by having two different things on both sides, that you have not come to a complete decision, so I am not going to say I don’t like your decision because there is no decision. But as a Public Hearing I would like to make the comment that I still stand strong on what would be at Ustick and Ten Mile and we are talking about neighborhood centers and what a fantastic place to put a neighborhood center. One of the other suggestions of something that hasn’t been there. My point for being up here is, that I would like you to know my face and I would like to be involved. I am here for the purpose to say that, every Public Hearing that we do have, I would like you to hear me in the fact that me and a group of people in our neighborhood are really concerned about what is in there, so you don’t have to give me the three minute card, I am out of here. I just wanted to say thank you for listening to the public and lets try to do our best to make Meridian the home we really want it to be. Thank you very much. Corrie: Thank you George. Jon Wardle? You have already testified – Wardle: You’re not going to do that again to me? For the record my name is Jon Wardle, 50 Broadway Avenue in Boise. I thought there were a lot more people ahead of me on that list – Corrie: We are getting to them – I just had to pick the wrong list here, I am sorry, but first come first served, go ahead, Jon. Wardle: Thank you very much. We have testified in the past, and as you know we have been working on the north Meridian area plan. We just wanted to make sure that there is flexibility in the text that would allow for if and when the north Meridian area plan is adopted, for that to occur and that at the appropriate time. If we don’t hit the right interval of six months, that the text of the north Meridian area plan could be adopted and the map could be amended at the time that it is appropriate. On the map again, we just don’t want to be, when the plan is adopted, or we come through the hearing process with the City Council, we would like that adoption to be sooner than later, and we just wanted to be on record to provide the flexibility within the text of the Comprehensive Plan to allow that to occur. I would stand for any questions if there might be any. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Jon, maybe if you could comment on – we have had some previous testimony and discussion about the timing of the north Meridian area plan and that evolution of it versus the current proposed Comprehensive Plan. What are your thoughts about timing and trying – I am not just talking about text, but just the overall idea of the timing between both of these plans and trying to get this into one plan eventually. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 12 of 27 Wardle: That is a good question. Mr. Mayor, if I can answer that, Mr. Nary, on our original time line we had scheduled for basically the next three months from March, which would take us up to the beginning of June to get into the process of hearings. I am not saying that is going to happen in March or April, but as you know we have a meeting on Monday to bring you up to speed on where we stand, what things need to occur next, and how we get to implementation. We would like to be in Public Hearings into May or June of this year. I am sure there will be a number of hearings on this issue and input. So I am not sure of how they run concurrently, what ultimately the time line is for the city to adopt the Comprehensive Plan, but sometime after June, we expect to have something in front of you for review. It may actually occur before then, we just show that the time line from March to June was when we want all these things to come together and get back in front of the city for reviews and approval of the north Meridian area plan. So I don’t have a specific date – it really depends on how we implement some things that need to occur in the next month or two. Rather ambiguous, sorry about that. Corrie: Donald Hobbs. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Name and address please. Hobbs: Yes, Donald Hobbs, 2683 W. Chinden, Meridian. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, I in general support this north Meridian area plan. I know it is in draft stage, but it hasn’t apparently reached the same status as the basic plan that we are looking at here. I am located, my property is just across the road from Spurwing Country Club. That plan shows a third concept for my property there, it went from three residences per acre, to no development until the rest of Meridian is developed to two residences per acre. It is actually, of course, a major arterial, Chinden is, and the planning staff feels that it should be low density, very low density through that area, in order to maintain a more rural setting. That would be the only arterial in the area that would be that way, because Fairview Avenue is obviously developing. State Street, even when you get down to Boise, you have high-density residence there and commercial on the other side of Eagle Road. I guess the traffic flow there is 22,000 vehicles per day, so it is a very intense vehicular use area. But if Meridian has in mind to try to increase density so they can support public transportation, then the one way to do that obviously is to allow denser development along Chinden Boulevard, because that is where the transfer buses would be arriving and departing there. I don’t know why this has been singled out, unless its across the road – Eagle has lower density, but if you have a lower density, you are going to have more expensive homes there to support the higher lot values, and as we know (inaudible) people here in the development business here, the costs are much higher, a lot of people can’t afford that, so by having a denser housing, the values, costs are going to go down per residence. So that is generally all I have to say about it, except that I do support the north Meridian draft plan that I have seen so far. Corrie: Thank you, anyone have questions? Council? Thank you very much. Janet Wilder. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? Wilder: Yes. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 13 of 27 Corrie: Thank you, give your name, and address please Jane. Wilder: Janet Wilder, 3340 N. Ten Mile Road. I am here to back up what George has already told you about the corner of Ten Mile and Ustick. We would really like to see that changed to mixed-use instead of industrial zoning that it has now, so we have discussed that many times, and I don’t have any new reason. I am just backing him up in that. Corrie: Thank you Janet. Joe Simunich. Simunich: I have no testimony at this time. Corrie: David Turnbull. You are still under oath David. Turnbull: I would like to begin by saying that the area we are talking about now, between Ustick and Chinden, correct, that it is a great improvement over the previous Comprehensive Plan. I think that when staff digs into these things and they are looking at an overall city plan, it is hard to focus one area like we are with the north Meridian area planning effort. I think that this is a good improvement. I think that what we are doing, working with the city and other government agencies, particularly with the Meridian City staff, is going to improve the plan in this area. I will echo what Mr. Hobb says, I was a bit taken back when I saw that low density residential buffered up against Chinden Boulevard. I think that – I have another article here -- *** End of Side One*** Turnbull: – it makes the statement that Americans are against two things: one is sprawl and the other is density. That in the planning vernacular is the ultimate paradox. You can’t have it both ways. I think that the area is prime for different types of uses, it may be a mixed-use, it may definitely be a lot of residential in that area, but low density residential is stretching that type of a distance along that type of a corridor is probably not appropriate in my judgment. I would also like to go back to what Mr. Wardle testified to earlier. I hope that the city gives great consideration to how they keep this process open for the adoption of the north Meridian planning area – that we can all agree on in the near future and get that moving forward. Thank you. Corrie: Thank you David. Any questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: David Irish. Is the testimony you are about to give tonight the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Irish: It is. Corrie: Thank you, name and address please. Irish: David Irish, 2424 East Indian Creek Drive. Actually here, under two hats. One because I live in the City of Meridian and I bought my house for some very specific Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 14 of 27 reasons, and one was that it wasn’t near any major roads. That leads me to my testimony as a land development engineer for W & H Pacific. We held off on a letter that has been sent to you all from my client Steiner Development. He has purchased the land at the southeast corner of Meridian and McMillan. Previously it was zoned medium residential, medium density residential with commercial retail at the corner. He had opportunity for other land and let that go and stayed with this piece, under the proposed plan that would become low density. One of the things, in some research that I have done and we understand that WGI has provided a traffic impact study to ACHD. In there, they are saying that between Ustick and McMillan Roads that will be a five- lane section. Along McMillan Road, I believe it was between Locust and the next street over a mile away, I don’t have my notes as I grabbed the wrong pad – was also going to be a five lane section. So given my personal experience of living in a number of places, the goals of my developer, his vast experience, he doesn’t see low density residential backing up to five lane roads. Lower density tends to indicate larger lots, larger houses, and he just doesn’t believe that is what the market will call for. In the end it seems to me that the market was guided from this type of a plan, which I think has done a great job but should be living breathing document to some extent. He just doesn’t see this as being low-density area. He didn’t purchase it under that condition. As we go forward, we are working as best we can with City P & Z staff, Shari, and her staff have been very very helpful to us. What he would like to do is to have something that to me pencils out just under what would be an R-5. He is not looking to make it the full R-8 – he wanted to try to get about 275 dwelling units on that parcel and with some kind of neighborhood retail, commercial – something similar to what we perceive the neighborhood center to be, with some apartment complexes, some smaller lots in there with some larger parks. That is his intent that under the plan he would like us to go forward with as we become contiguous with the city. It needs to be medium density zoning and that is what we are asking for at this time. Corrie: Any questions Council? Becky Bowcutt? I don’t see her – is she out in the hall? Bowcutt: Is this one northwest Meridian? Corrie: Between Ustick Road and Chinden Boulevard. Is the testimony you are about to give tonight the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Bowcutt: Yes sir Corrie: Then give your name and address for the record please. Bowcutt: Becky Bowcutt, 1405 W. Chance Court, Eagle. I would just like to make a few brief comments. We will be submitting some information in writing. We are getting that put together at this time. I represent Mr. Bews and Mr. Varialle. They have property located at Ten Mile and the McMillan intersection. As you are well aware, we have our Bridgetower development that has been approved. We have commercial approved on two corners, the northeast corner, and the southeast corner. My clients also own the northwest and the southwest corner. Our plan for these properties was to create some kind of commercial core with neighborhood service in mind, not anything regional or large scale – something more neighborhood oriented. In our design of these neighborhood centers we have been very careful to abide some of these new urban or Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 15 of 27 incorporate some of these new urban ideas, to abide by ACHD’s policy on offsets for full access in taking interior access off of loop streets, instead of direct lot access to the arterials. In evaluating these midsection commercial centers, I guess from my planning perspective, I question the viability of these. The concept of creating a neighborhood commercial center and then fanning out to other uses such as multi-family or office, or incorporation of all three of those and then transitioning to single family, I think that is good in theory and I think we can apply that at an intersection just as well as we could at the midsection. It is a great idea, interconnection, pedestrian, vehicular, so that people can come in from the subdivisions, enter these little neighborhood cores with a loop street and go the dry cleaners or video store or grocery store or whatever we may have there without going out onto the arterials. It will provide additional capacity to the arterials and to the intersections if we can provide some time of loops. When I talk of loop streets, I am talking about what we have at RC Willey’s, that street that loops from Franklin Road to Eagle Road. When that is developed to its full commercial potential, you will see that that will function the same fashion, instead of having everything fronting on those two arterials. So, that is what I am talking about. I would like you to take that into consideration. Corrie: Any questions? You might stay there – you signed up for neighborhood centers and incentives. Bowcutt: Oh, incentives? You would like me to discuss that? Corrie: You are on that list and it is the last one. Bowcutt: I think I just discussed my point of view – I hit two birds with one stone. Corrie: Very good, thank you. Mixed-use areas and incentives. We have six signed up for that. David Fuller. Is the testimony you are about to give tonight the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Fuller: Yes sir. Corrie: We would like your name and address for the record please. Fuller: David Fuller, 890 N. Ten Mile. Most all you folks know me real well by now. I just checked the map and someone has tried to pull a shenanigan over here – we worked two years to get commercial and the density program on that corner, and one map shows it mixed-use and one map shows it set for a changed. I do not want it changed. I don’t believe it should be changed. We have already had an approval for the project that was on the books. That project is no longer on the books but we want to be able to bring in here another developer and still provide services. I would like some questions, or answers from the panel as to why they chose to change it? Because I don’t want it changed. Corrie: Staff. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 16 of 27 Hawkins-Clark: Thank you, Mayor. Just to clarify, we are talking about the corner of Pine and Ten Mile, correct? When you say change, are you referring to this map that is posted in the back, that says mixed-use? Fuller: The map that would be on my left has it mixed-use and some one requested a change over here, it is residential. I don’t want residential, I want it to stay mixed-use. Hawkins-Clark: On the back one that requested changes to the future land use map does that – do you know, can you tell me which color? Fuller: I believe it is red. Medium density residential. Hawkins-Clark: I believe that – we disagreed with that request, so it is not proposed to change. If you could read the legend on the bottom of that map, the colors represent things that staff disagrees with and things that staff agrees with. The red, we disagreed with, so it remains the same. Fuller: Okay, we thank you. My question is, is this about the final meeting on this mixed-use? It is not going to be the final meeting? I am sure getting tired of it guys. What do you think? Two more? Midsummer? Nary: We have scheduled two more meetings – Fuller: I still need to keep coming then right? Corrie: We have scheduled two. Fuller: So I will keep coming and work with Brad I guess, to see what he is working out. You are going to have – I have signed up for one more category, do you want me to wait on that? Nary: if I could reiterate to you, just like we told Mr. Willis, all that map is over there, as Mr. Hawkins-Clark said, is just some the staff agree with, some they disagree with. None of it has been decided, that is what was recommended. Fuller: I understand. Nary: This is other peoples’ opinions—some of them were one person requested different that what was suggested, just for us to talk about it. That is all. Fuller: I understand that, that is why I am here. We worked two years on it and I don’t want it to be thrown away by just one person’s input. Corrie: Since you are here, this is between I-84 and Ustick. Your name is on there and you are already sworn in. Fuller: I would just like to, Bob, talk about that a bit. Because I live there and it is a high traffic issue. You have approved a lot of things to the north of us in the last few meetings I have been down to some of the workshops – is that they were going to make Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 17 of 27 Ten Mile a three lane road and a five, and no matter how they improve it, I just want to try to get the city to work with the county to do something about the traffic that is going to flowing that direction. If the property I own and the property is between the freeway and Ustick gets developed later, we still need to get on the ball wagon with this traffic deal with the county because you are going to put thousands of homes north of us. When my development came through here before, the traffic was a real major issue, safety issue. Before we just keep expanding all that stuff to the north of us, I am all for developing it but lets see about fixing this way to get them to the freeway, because right now they are not going to have a way, except that two lane that is going to be all bottled up. My suggestion is lets get the county on it. If you are going to add thousands of homes here, we need to get that as a priority. Corrie: It is one of the priorities of ACHD and the city both, so you are right on target. Fuller: Thank you. Corrie: Thank you, David. Tanya Blackwood, has she come in here yet? Donald Hobbs. Mixed-use areas and incentives. Did Mr. Hobbs leave? David Turnbull. You are already sworn in sir, so name and address please. Turnbull: David Turnbull, 12426 W. Explorer Drive. I hope I didn’t sign up for any more. Corrie: As a matter of fact I have six more here that you are signed up for – Turnbull: and this is mixed-use and incentives? Corrie: Mixed-use areas and incentives. Turnbull: We are a big proponent of mixed-use development. We have tried to incorporate that in any large parcel of property that we have developed and I think we have done that rather successfully and we have learned from every one that we have done. I am a big proponent of it. In the matter of incentives, I guess I would just offer that, there has been a lot of talk in Meridian over the last five or so years about getting the same thing over and over again, and the problem is, the way the system is set up. As long as you keep running the system the same way, applicants will follow the path of least resistance and you will get the same result – you get the same thing over and over again. So I don’t have the answers, I think there are a lot of answers that have been thrown out on the table and I think we need to start looking seriously at them and find a way to create incentives for applicants to provide mixed uses. I can give you an example of one that – a project that my competitor did. Two projects in Eagle. One was a planned-unit development. The other was a straight subdivision. The planned-unit development took him three years and over a 100 thousand dollars in legal fees to get it approved. The straight subdivision which was much less creative and much less desirable in my view, took him three months. So you can see why an applicant might say to heck with that, I am going for what is easy and I am going to give you the same old thing. We need to definitely get to a way to create incentives so that the process for creative development is expedited through the system. I don’t know how that would work, it obviously has to comply with Idaho Code, but we need to look at ways to make that happen. Thank you. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 18 of 27 Corrie: Thank you, David. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Turnbull. I wondered if you had a comment or thought about trying to expand the ideas of incentives in other areas, all we have talked about is really in regards to mixed-use. We haven't talked about it in R-4’s, R-8’s, we haven't talked about it in residential, just a residential subdivision. Do you have any thoughts about trying to work with creating something like that? Again get some of that diversity of housing and some innovation? Turnbull: I think there area actually things you could do just with the subdivision ordinance, that would create more – provide for more creativity within a normal subdivision. You could provide, essentially what Meridian has had is an ordinance that in an R-4 zone, that requires an 80-foot frontage. So you have gotten a belly full of 80 by 100 square foot lots. You know, and they are just lined out one after another after another. Give some incentives like that you can have a 20 percent reduction on the downside as long as you have a compensating increase on the upside, then you would get a variety of sizes. Do something that encourages clustering and things like that – there are a lot of things you could do if you would just make some – I think you could do it with one or two paragraphs in your subdivision ordinance that would go a long way toward that. Corrie: Thank you. Brad Miller? (Inaudible) De Weerd: Are you going to propose igloos? Ice houses? Corrie: is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? Miller: Yes it is. My name is Brad Miller, with Ronald W. Van Auker Inc., 3084 E. Lanark in Meridian. Yes, Tammy, I did survive my snow camping adventure last weekend when I slept in an igloo. I share David Turnbull’s opinions on mixed-use developments, but the one item that scares me on that is the fact that it takes so darn long to get things done. I am nervous about the condition use permit process and the fact that it is not well defined. The fact that you have to go through Planning and Zoning and City Council. One of the things that we find in the, in development is that we get people who come in here, and they need to fill that need quickly. When we say to them, in Meridian we really don’t know how long it is going to take. It could take two months it could take four months. We really don’t know. You have to go through this, and this and this. Most of them say well lets go somewhere else. Within the past, oh three weeks, I have taken three different companies to Nampa. I am meeting tomorrow with Nampa, carving out a 15-acre parcel from a hundred acre parcel. I am going to put an industry in there that is going to employ twelve people initially, and probably up to fifty people within the next Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 19 of 27 three years. I know what the rules are in Nampa, I know I can work with them very easily. I know that the process is quick and you don’t have a lot of brain damage there to tell you the truth. In Meridian, sometimes the rules are not clearly spelled out, sometimes it takes too long to get things done and it is hard to convince people to stay here in Meridian and fight the battle. That would be my main concern. I don’t have a problem at all with mixed-use, it provides more flexibility. If I have to come in, and Shari and I just discussed this out in the hall. I may have a bit of a misconception about the plan or the condition use process, but if I have to come in every single time for every single user, I don’t know if that is really going to work for us. Any questions? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Mr. Miller, I am just curious, we have a letter that you wrote back on February 6th , regarding some of the individual properties of Mr. Van Auker. On that letter you talked about the Ten Mile and Franklin, the former dairy – and then we got a letter this week from Michael Roe of Moffatt Thomas – Miller: Right, I saw that letter. We don’t own that property. Grey Wolfe owns that property. Nary: Okay, so I was just wondering because obviously this is significantly different that what you told us (inaudible) from what you told us just now. Miller: And you know what I think part of that is Mr. Nary, is that I think that Grey clearly does not understand the mixed-use designation and he doesn’t understand the conditional use process and doesn’t really want to have to go through it. So, he is nervous about that. It is not clearly spelled out. There are no guidelines in his opinion, so he is worried about being bottled up in that process. So if he goes with industrial, he knows what he can do and he knows how he can get it done and how quickly he can get it done. That is concern right there, is being tied up in the process. Corrie: Thank you. Miller: Thank you. Corrie: Under mixed-use areas and incentives, Jon Wardle. Glen Griffiths signed for two things here, between I-84 and Ustick, and schools, parks and open space. We will let – is the testimony you are about to give tonight the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Griffiths: Yes. Corrie: Name and address please. Griffiths: I am Glen Griffiths. I live at 3295 N. Montvue Drive. Corrie: Okay, how about between I-84 and Ustick. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 20 of 27 Griffiths: To touch quickly on that – I wanted to step up and support my neighbor Richard Willis on his views about supporting our subdivision remaining commercial designation and that Council sees the light. The planning before that we have had has probably not been followed, I think this new Comprehensive Plan will hopefully be followed closer to the letter and with what we have now, and it makes sense that our subdivisions go commercial in the future. The quality of life out there right now, we area surrounded by commercial development, its quite dangerous as a resident there and transportation factors and for us to see any appreciation in the value of our property, the only way to see in the future is to a commercial developer or planner. I feel that is only way to go there. Switching gears, to comment about parks and open space, as an avid baseball parent, I wanted to put a plug in here for baseball, and Councilman Bird is in the same port as I am, I am vice president of our league this year and I really – and Mrs. de Weerd has really talked to our board about trying to get the parks up and going. We really need more park space for our baseball kids to play in. our local league has now consistently 700 kids from our community in softball and baseball. Anyone who is a parent knows what a frustration it is to find places to practice and play our games. We can play in one park at Fuller – three fields. That park is extremely over crowded. It probably wasn’t laid out in the best way for a baseball complex and anything future, we want to reiterate that we are totally committed to throwing whatever funds we can raise and manpower, free labor to develop any park that could be designated baseball, because it is a unique sport. We play close to six months out of the year for some of the kids, and I think that is comparable to soccer, which I realize is more popular. Baseball is an old American tradition and we would really love to see it grow and prosper in this community. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Griffiths, could you tell me what at least, you concern is, regarding the Montvue Sub, and why the mixed-use is more of a problem or concern to you than the commercial which appears your preference. Griffiths: Well, in talking to commercial development and planners, the mixed-use, at least to me, is still up in the air as to what that is, and what it could be. A commercial designation is pretty straight cut about -- you will develop commercially and it seems to be a more streamlined process through the permit selections, and I think it is more beneficial. Nary: Isn't there an assisted living facility on the east side of Montvue? East of this property? Okay, because a lot of my recollection of discussions of the past were concerned about having some control over the property was because of that assisted living center, to make sure we didn’t put something in there that wouldn’t – would work very well with people residing in the residence next to that. What is your thought about that? Griffith: You will have to run that one by me again, now. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 21 of 27 Nary: we were concerned, you heard me when Mr. Willis testified. What the discussion of the Planning and Zoning Commission was about allowing commercial but having it with a condition use permit so that it would require at least some input from the city before something was built there, because of there is an assisted living facility immediately adjacent to the property on the east side. Mixed-use gets the same thing, and that was the reason why staff is recommending the mixed-use, it gets the same result that the Commission was at least discussing. I understand what you would like to do with your property, but what is your thought in relation to the other people who are still going to reside there when you sell? The city, at least having some input as to what exactly gets built there. Griffiths: We are in unanimous agreement that the whole subdivision will eventually sell out. It may take years. I am willing to be patient until that happens, but in the meantime, we need to move forward and look at things that would make better development there. The Touchmark development will be all businesses on the east side, it wont be just residential housing. It is going to be commercial surrounding us, so it makes sense to finish filling in commercial businesses to me. Corrie: Between Ustick Road and Chinden Boulevard, Laura Johnson. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Johnson: Yes sir. Corrie: If you will give your name and address for the record please. Johnson: Laura Johnson, 25770 Lansing Lane in Middleton. I am Laura Johnson. I also own some property on Chinden Boulevard between Ten Mile and Linder Road. At this point, I don’t have really a great deal to add and so I won’t belabor the point, but we do support the mixed-use and flexibility that would be provided by the north Meridian area plan draft along Chinden Boulevard. This is a major highway, and to us it seems very important in long range planning of Meridian that there be mixed-use and the flexibility necessary, where it is not limited to low density housing along such a major highway as Chinden Boulevard. So therefore, we support the north Meridian area plan draft. I think I submitted a letter a number of weeks ago, and at this point would stand for any questions you would have. Corrie: Thank you, Laura. Is that all we have Steve? I believe Jon Wardle wanted to have a comment on the general comments, is that right Jon? Wardle: For the record my name is Jon Wardle, 50 Broadway Avenue in Boise. Just anecdotally, anyone who owns property in the north Meridian area and would love to support the plan financially, we would more than welcome their contributions, so we are grateful to hear that there are people out there who are supportive of that and that they are landowners. I will be really quick here, this is my stack of everything that has been handed out to date, on where we were, where we are. We have the draft 2000 in June of 2001, basically an addendum which also included a new land use map. Passed out in January and subsequent to that, there was number of hearings and things like that. In January there was by staff, a report from Ed Starkey on neighborhood centers, there is Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 22 of 27 also a new land use map from what came out of the Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council. There is that other map back there that is a little confusing if you don’t read it correctly. There was a recommendation from, and I am just trying to prove a point here, get to the point really quick. In January there was was another memo by staff, January 25th , and then ultimately there was another memo from staff on February 4th , kind of restating some things that were in the city attorney’s recommendation. A lot of documentation, and its been rather cumbersome to get through all this. As I was sitting in my office this afternoon, a little frustrated because I could quite get the recommendations to work. I was working from the city attorneys and then I looked at what Mr. Hawkins-Clark had submitted and came up with what I thought were the recommendations, and I actually redlined them because I was having a hard time cross referencing all these things. In fact, as I cross referenced those, and looked at what was still there, I was still deficient because there were a lot of text changes to what was in here, so I had to go back through and redline – they are actually yellow lines, big stickies, of what changes in the text. I guess the point I am trying to make is, if you are new the process tonight, or even if you are not new to the process tonight, to get through all this information and not have a single document in front of you of what we are trying to get our arms around, it is hard to work from, from the public’s perspective. I work in this, day in and day out, and I am not going to say that I am abused by this, because I can deal with this. But it is a little cumbersome to deal with. I think before we get too far or a decision is made by this body, it would be nice to have this Comprehensive Plan, which we are referencing as the draft of June of 2000, with all the redlines in it and have everyone be able to come back and see what that document is. Unless you have all of these, and like I said, I had to redline it myself and I am going to submit a copy here, and it is not complete and I will tell you why. The very last recommendation as submitted by staff says to incorporate items number one, four five and six from Sally Norton’s December 6th memo which attached hereto, was not attached hereto to this, so I don’t even know what those recommendations were – what recommendations one, four, five, six from the December 6th memo from Sally Norton who was formerly a Commissioner with the Planning and Zoning Commission. So if you could provide the public with a document that tells us what we are looking at in redline form, and I know that is a big task to do. What they did in Ada County – if you wanted a copy of it, they sent it out to print, and if you wanted a copy you went down and paid for it. I am willing to do that if I can have it all together. Then I can look at it in one, instead of looking at seven or eight different documents. It is just personal preference, but I think it would be easier as we get down to the fine details on this, to have one document to look at instead of this. I stand for any questions if there are any. I wanted to be very complimentary of staff – they have done an excellent job of getting this information together. We are just at the point where we need it in one document instead of seven or eight. I am not beating up on staff at all – I don’t want them to take that the wrong way. I am just saying that we appreciate the work, we just need something that is easier to work from and very concisely, we need to know what those recommendations were from the Planning and Zoning Commission. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 23 of 27 De Weerd: I completely agree. We have to do the same thing, Jon, so it would have been our comment, so I do appreciate the summaries we are getting. But it is getting very difficult, going back and forth referencing them. It would be nice to have it so you could read the document in full. I would like to anyway. Corrie: I think there are five of us who would, as well as most of the public so we know what is going on. Wardle: Thank you very much, thank you for your work. Corrie: Mr. Willis, I do have your letter with all the petitions signed by the people, as part of the record as well. Is there anyone else that had any general comments? You have already been sworn in, so just give your name and address please. Irish: David Irish, 2424 E. Indian Creek Drive. I guess in this case I am speaking for myself as an engineer who has worked on a couple of rail transit projects. As I understand earlier information that came out in the newspaper, one of the goals of the neighborhood centers was to have a bus transit stop at that location. I guess from experience over a number of years working with rail transit and how that is fed by bus and others, I would say – I would ask that you consider as high density as you feel you can tolerate because unless you have density, you are not going to have transit. Whether its bus or rail or otherwise. I know that tends to also support my client but in terms of supporting the city and what they are trying to do, and my experience of having worked on transit projects, density is an absolute requirement. Corrie: I would expect nothing else from a transit person – great info. We will have another meeting as well, but has anyone else any general comments at this time? David? Mr. Turnbull. Turnbull: Sorry, I broke my promise. David Turnbull once again. I just wanted to make the observation that 90 percent of the testimony you have heard has been wrangling over the land use map. Let’s not forget the text and make sure we have got that done, because it would be a shame to forget about that, gloss over it and have conflicts between the text and the map and make sure that the goals and the policy statements in there are actually what Meridian City wants for its future. Thank you. Corrie: Council, any questions of anyone who has testified tonight? Well I wanted to thank everyone for being here tonight and giving your testimony. We do have another one set for the 6th of March. Staff, do you have any comments at this point? Hawkins-Clark: Mayor and members of the Council, I would just point out that we did hand out tonight of the proposed breakdown on the mixed uses – that was one of your two requests of us at your last meeting. So, we have three different breakdowns there. The other, since you just received it tonight I guess you want to take some time with it. We can – just suffice to say that it is somewhat of a merging between the work that Wardle and Associates has done on the north Meridian area plan and we feel like there is some ease of combining – one of the concerns is how do we get the north Meridian area plan designations for land use and the Planning and Zoning Commission’s recommendations on land uses, how do we get them to merge? The mixed-use is the Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 24 of 27 majority of that, we still do have problem with the residential. That is the one that we need to work out, but that will be worked out when we come back for an amendment at some time in the future. I think the only other item that you requested at your last meeting was regarding frontage roads along state highways. ITD and ACHD have been contacted and they have done a little work, Becky Bowcutt has done a little work on a project that they are working on along Chinden. We just didn’t have anything really firm to bring to you but we should by your March 6th meeting, I believe is your next one. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: Shari, with the requests on consolidating all the comments into one document. When is it possible and when might we be able – well, it is possible, so when might we be able to get something like that? Stiles: Councilman de Weerd, Mayor, and Council, I guess it would depend on how much of the changes you want included. We have probably every single page has changed as far as factual information, information from different agencies, St. Luke's, St. Al’s, the school district has changed. All of the census data has changed but we certainly could get something together that incorporated a lot of this information. Part of the problem is that a lot of this information is information you requested but we don’t know which direction to go. We have no input on – this is what we like or don’t like to even know if we are going the right direction. Some of this information we have actually conflicts the information we had submitted, so we don’t know which one to include necessarily. We could take a shot at it, Brad claims he can do it in how many days? Three days, he claims he can get that done. But it will not include those factual data type, type-O’s and stuff like that. We did get some, we looked at it from both sides as far as getting you a new document. Even when we came out with the memo, we had complaints that, this is a whole new document, you have to go back to Planning and Zoning now. Because they are seeing it as a significant change. The people who don’t want to see this progress, will find a way to try to stop it, if they consider that a new document that has to go back to open houses and the whole public input start over, the whole thing, that was a fear we had. But if Brad says he can do that, then he will be locked in his office for three days. Corrie: We will bring you lunch, dinner, and a car. Stiles: We can do that for you. I worry about the cost of an entire new document. I wouldn’t want to make that general, the hundreds of copies we made before, especially with all the colored mapping, but if we can make it available in our office, people can look at it there, make it available at City Hall, at the library, but not be distributing the full sets as freely as we have in the past. We could also have that – we will talk about getting it available on a CD – see what we can do with that. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 25 of 27 De Weerd: I guess what you can’t incorporate in, which still has a question to it, would need to be summarized in a separate attachment so that those specific issues, we can address. But it would be nice to see what the Planning and Zoning Commission has approved into that document. The date we know will change, I would like maybe at our next meeting, an idea of when those changes could be incorporated, because certainly before we adopt it, we will want all of those changes in there too. Stiles: I think if you are just talking about Planning and Zoning recommendations, it probably wouldn’t even affect that many pages. De Weerd: Did they not go through the amendment that you offered in June? Stiles: Yes, they did. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Since I have had the pleasure of hearing all of this twice, I have a whole box full of papers that relate to what we are talking about, the only thing I would be concerned with and we need to keep it in mind, to echo what Ms. Stiles said. There is a map at the back of the room, it is the summary of requested changes. That map is just a notice of suggested changes and yet folks here understandably, folks here tonight as well as others in the community think that is what the map is going to look like. That isn't. That isn't anything – that is a suggestion of what some people have asked for. It doesn’t mean anything. The reason we went from one plan to all these addendums that Mr. Wardle has is because nothing is final until we make it final. The hard part, and what I think Ms. Stiles is saying if we put it into another book, it looks to people that we have decided what it is. And we haven't. As long as we keep that in mind so we understand that folks like Mr. Willis coming in tonight, saying it looked to him like we changed it. We hadn’t changed anything. That is I think what the planning staff’s concern is, and I understand that, because people always recognize it. Nothing is final, all that recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission is, is a recommendation, and nothing is final until we make it final. It doesn’t make sense, I think Mr. Wardle has done a very good job in his presentation, saying here is the document that seems to relate except for one. And I don’t have that one, that one of Commissioner Norton’s comments. But as long as we understand and every one else understands, these are just suggestions to a baseline document that is not final at this point, that is fine. Corrie: Brad. Hawkins-Clark: Thank you Mayor, members of the Council. I just had one clarification. If we were to do that, we have received, you have received a legal recommendation, drawn up by the city attorney’s office. I just wanted to make sure, that, my understanding is that that really is the document that you should be making an action on. My position statement that was attached to that, it sounds like Ms. Norton’s memo is not, but it stated that we felt the legal department ‘s recommendation was missing a few items, understandably so because there were a lot of minutes to go through. So, if we were to come back I just wanted to make sure that you are comfortable with – if staff Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 26 of 27 presents something, we are presenting something that may actually be a bit different from what the legal recommendation is to do. My understanding is that that won’t necessarily be changed until you act on that and the position statement. So if you are comfortable with us making a new consolidated document, including our changes, and its still stamped draft all over it, it may conflict a bit with what the legal department is giving you has their P & Z Commission recommendations. Corrie: Council, do you feel comfortable with that at this point? Bird: It is better than what we have got. Corrie: I don’t have any problems with it myself. Like I say, it is a draft, it is a legal recommendation too. Okay, anything else from Council? (***End of Side Two) – motion to continue the Public Hearing until the 6th . Nary: So moved. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made and seconded to continue the Public Hearing until March the 6th . De Weerd: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: Can we discuss the process on the 6th ? Will we kind of go through the recommendations and – because there are some recommendations done by Planning and Zoning that I don’t necessarily agree with – we will take public testimony and then go into a discussion of the recommendations? Corrie: Yes, absolutely. Any other discussion? Hearing none, all in favor of the motion say aye. We will see you on the sixth as well. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES MEETING ADJOURNED AT 8:15 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: / / ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE APPROVED Meridian City Council Special Meeting February 27, 2002 Page 27 of 27 WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK