HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002 07-23Meridian City Council Meeting July 23, 2002
The regularly scheduled meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to
order at 6:30 P.M. on Tuesday, July 23, 2002, by Mayor Robert D. Corrie.
Members Present: Mayor Robert Corrie, Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, Bill
Nary, Cherie McCandless.
Others Present: Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Brad Watson, Bill Nichols, and Will
Berg.
Item 1. Roll-call Attendance:
X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary
X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird
X Mayor Robert Corrie
Corrie: Hello, I would like to first welcome everybody here this evening.
Also, a particular welcome to the Scouts, Troop 62. They are on their
citizenship badge, to see how the Council works. And I hope that you learn
quite a bit and don’t get too discouraged with some of the things you might
hear or think you might hear. So at this time I will open the City Council
Regular Meeting Agenda for Tuesday July 23rd
, 2002 at 6:30 p.m. At this
time I would like to have the City Clerk take roll-call attendance, please.
Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Corrie: Adoption of the agenda is number two. I would like to ask the
Council if they would like to add under 10-B, discussion of ACHD about the
dissolution question that is coming up before the Ada County Commissioners.
Any ideas of what we might want to do in the next two weeks when they
possibly have the hearing and some of the input to the Ada County
Commissioners.
De Weerd: I have no problem with that.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: On the agenda, also, under the consent agenda, we have item A, order
granting appeal by Walt Morrow. I would like to move that with yours and the
Council’s permission to 5-A on the regular agenda and also on the agenda
we will add 10-B, discussion of ACHD. And with those changes, I would
move we adopt the agenda as noted.
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July 23, 2002
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McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay, motion has been made and seconded to adopt the agenda as
noted and corrected. Any further discussion? All those in favor say – no lets
have roll-call vote Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, aye; De Weerd, aye; McCandless, aye; Nary, aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
Corrie: Department reports – oh, first –
Bird: Mr. Mayor, I move we approve the consent agenda with Item A being
moved to regular agenda 5-A.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and second. Any further discussion? Roll-call
vote Mr. Berg.
Roll-Call: Bird, aye; De Weerd, aye; McCandless, aye; Nary, aye.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES
4. Department Reports:
A. Mayor:
1. Discussion of Code Enforcement and Possible New
Position:
Corrie: Now, department reports, Mayor. On the – I guess I left it back on
my desk. But you were wanting to know about the – this was in reference to
code enforcement and the new position. We did have a meeting with Shari
and also Chief Worley in reference to the code enforcement wanting one full
time and two part-time. With their discussions, we came to the conclusion
that Shari will have the full time position of the code enforcement officer in her
office and the two part time will stay with the police department there. What
they will do is – the full time will be on sign ordinances and most of the
Planning and Zoning ordinances. The two part time will take care of weed
control, parking problems and cars that are left on the street. What they also
– Chief you might jump in if you have anything different, is that when they call
in, any one of them can take the call and they will direct that call to the proper
code enforcement officer so that they don’t have to play tag as to who has
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July 23, 2002
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what. So they will all be aware of what they have to do with their jobs and if
one comes in for signs, if Joe or Fred takes it, they will transfer to them
personally. Anything else, Chief, that I missed on that?
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: One question. Where will it be advertised that the people who have
complaints will be phoning into? Will it be Planning and Zoning or will it be
the police department?
Corrie: I don’t know. Did you talk about that? I didn’t.
Bird: I think that was one of the biggest things that was confusing. People
didn’t know who to call or where to call.
Worley: Mr. Mayor and Mr. Bird. We didn’t specifically discuss that. Within
the new police building, we have established a specific number for code
enforcement. It goes right to a voicemail box that is specifically dedicated to
those two. I guess in thinking through this Ad-Hoc, we may publish both
numbers. Both -- one for Planning and Zoning for code enforcement and
then as the Mayor indicated, what Shari and I have agreed to do is we’ll direct
our people that when they get a call, when somebody calls the police number
and they have a sign complaint, they wont be told to call this other number,
they will be helped, the information taken by that individual and then passed
on internally. You had – understand I wasn’t here but I understand there has
been discussion about coordination and what we have agreed we can
probably do is have internal coordination. The three of them coordinate
activities to funnel the things where they need to go as determined by Shari
and myself.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I am curious. Does one of the things I think we sort of left out in this
discussion, but I don’t know what type of vehicles do they use now, are they
going to need another vehicle to be able to get out and investigate and do
that type of thing? I know P & Z had asked for a vehicle but that is for the
planners to use to go out to sites. Is there adequate capability to do that?
Worley: Mr. Mayor and Mr. Nary. We have one car in the police department
that is used by the two part timers because they don’t work at the same time.
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July 23, 2002
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Stacy just informed me that there is a car put into the P & Z budget for the full
time position.
De Weerd: The $14,000.00.
Nary: I thought that was the car the planners had requested for the planning
department.
Kilchenmann: Mayor and Council, the planner car was in the replacement
capital outlay and this is a – she requested an additional small truck for code
enforcement.
Corrie: Thank you. Any other questions?
Bird: Sounds pretty good to me.
B. Finance Department – Stacy Kilchenmann:
1. Finance Report:
Corrie: Four B. Finance Department Stacy Kilchenmann.
Kilchenmann: Mayor and Council, I am not going to review the financial
statements in detail. Everything looks under budget except a few items that
are on the amendment list, so I am going to go ahead and speak to the
potential amendment list. If you look at the top where we have the enterprise
fund, the two – there are two items we will need to do. An additional item I
wanted to get your permission or approval of, the first one that we spoke
about before, the person that was not added in the budget. We will need to
go ahead and amend the budget and add that person. The second, the
purchase of the park, we will definitely need to transfer that money to the
general fund. Then under items under consideration, the first item. It says
$145,000.00 for Wastewater Treatment Plant for asphalt roadway. What
John would like to do, is in his budget he had $70,000.00 to – in operating to
redo the asphalt of the roadway. Once he actually had someone look at it, it
became not just an operating expense but a major land improvement
because he discovered he will have to take out and replace some of the older
roadway. He would like to move that down into capital, his operating money.
And then move $40,000.00 from his number three generator project which is
in capital outlay, and $35,000.00 from the potable water project, which is also
just referred to on your projects list as Waste Water Treatment Plant city
water and move those into one project to do the asphalt work. So, we would
essentially make an amendment, which would be transferring from operating
to capital. We wouldn’t need to make any kind of amendment to move from
project to project. Under the general fund, the first four items we will not need
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July 23, 2002
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to deal with, with exception of the carry forward budget for the police. That is
in addition to work that didn’t get done last year that we anticipated will be
done. So its not changing the overall budget amount. Then, of course, the
addition of the parks land from the enterprise fund. The Chamber restrooms,
the amount you approved that is slightly over budget. The Bear Creek
equipment. We will need to make an amendment for the grant revenue for
the police. But that is just a shift, no real net budget change. Then under
items under consideration, the final item is the codification expense. It is now
$9300.00, so we may need to do that. But we will still be looking at the end
at the administration budget as a total, which may cover that extra amount or
it may not. We will probably wait another month until we know for sure. Are
there any questions on the amendments?
Corrie: Thank you, Stacy.
2. Grant Research Results:
Kilchenmann: The other item I had was – on the grant, you had asked us to
start exploring some, the possibility of using grant revenue and some grant
development. So I started some research. We did a survey and I think you
all have the memo. I won’t go over the detail or results of the survey. We
might send it out again or actually contact maybe City of Boise, because we
didn’t get a response from them. It appears that most of the people who
responded get grants because they are in economically disadvantaged areas
or the population is economically disadvantaged. So that wouldn’t be an area
Meridian would qualify as far as population. It looks like most of our
qualifications would probably be in that we can find in the catalog of federal
assistance or Tom is currently looking at a grant from Water Resources, so in
more general areas. So I think what we can do to take it a step further is at
our next staff meeting we can discuss the major departments, Parks, Police
and Fire and how we can go about having a committee or having some
feedback that we can give to you on how each department looks for grants.
Like in the catalog of federal assistance, I can help them find – access that,
and that website is very easy to find. I think, and this is from my experience
and also from contacting and talking to people who use grants. The biggest
part of the grant is not writing the grant or even finding the grant but
implementing the grant. Getting the planning done so it is incorporated into
the budget. Having a project before you even search for the grant so that you
involve the parts of the community that need to be involved in utilizing the
grant. So those are things that we probably need to talk to as a staff with
those major departments who would utilize grants. I don’t think we need to
hire a grant writer. I think we can take care of that in house. Are there any
questions about that?
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De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Stacy, you talked to SAGE. As I understand it they work with
other cities in the area and creating grants from youth based types of grants
to economic development. They not only write them, as I understand, they
do some administration of them in complying to the stipulations attached to
the grants. COMPASS also has a grant writer. As far as we talked at our
urban renewal efforts in interchange beautification and they noted that we
could utilize their staff for things like that. So there are different areas outside
of anything economically disadvantaged that we can be pursuing. Its working
with those types of agencies. I know SAGE has a membership fee attached
to it, but I don’t know what that is. I guess I would be interested in further
exploring that. I don’t think we need a full time grant writer. But I do think we
need to become more aware of what is out there, in particular, Parks and
beautification type projects and certainly our urban renewal efforts.
(inaudible – tape cuts out)
C. Public Works Department – Brad Watson:
1. Wastewater Facility Plan Update and WWTP Build-out
Pre-design, Agreement for Professional Services:
Corrie: -- Public Works Department Brad Watson, Wastewater Facility Plan
Update, Wastewater Build-out Pre-design, Agreement for Professional
Services.
Watson: Mr. Mayor and Council members, this item is sort of my pet project
over the last year. This is a contract with Carollo Engineers which is required
by DEQ from time to time in addition to doing a pre-design on the rest of the
waste water plant. In other doubling the capacity out there to what we think is
approximately the twenty year population target. We don’t usually have the
consultant come and present anything to you when we bring these
agreements to you. This one, just because of the importance and it was one
of our strategic initiatives and because of the size of the contract, Gary and I
thought it would appropriate if we had them come and show off their
credentials a bit and explain in more detail what the project is all about so that
you have a better comfort level if you decide to approve it. There is a bit of
house keeping on this particular agreement. About a year ago we budgeted
$200,000.00 for this project. We have gone through the request for
proposals process. We had five proposals. We interviewed three of those –
Carollo Engineers, Keller Associates and J-U-B Engineers. After much
painstaking deliberation, they were all very qualified – we chose to negotiate
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with Carollo. We have been doing that for the last two months. The contract
that we think is fair and complete and will cover what we need is
$235,000.00. You may remember that last week we discussed an
enhancement that would cover the remainder of that contract, although that is
in the next budget year. Carollo finished the bio-solids management study
about three or four years ago and last year completed the dewatering project.
It was a 1.4 million-dollar construction project out at the plant. I think with
that I would like to turn it over to Tim Tekippe, who is the project manager and
his team, Bill Benko and Stuart Hurley. They have a very short power point
presentation to show you. If you have any questions feel free to interrupt
them or me.
Tekippe: Thank you, Brad. Mayor and Council, we appreciate the
opportunity to present our qualifications for this project and to give you a
better idea of what we plan to provide for you and what benefits to the City of
Meridian will come of our project. I am going to quickly give you a summary
of what I am going to talk about today. I am going to give some quick
introductions to the project team we brought with us tonight and give a brief
overview as Carollo Engineers as a firm. Then we will talk about some
specifics for this facility plan update and pre-design project. At the end I have
some summary slides that summarize the work that has been done out at the
Wastewater Treatment Plant over that last ten years and what we envisioned
will happen construction-wise over the next years as well. Let’s see, our
project team I brought tonight, as Brad mentioned, is Bill Benko and he is
going to be coordinating the construction, the pre-design documents, most of
the planning and engineering work. Bill brings over 18 years of experience,
specifically in Wastewater treatment. I, myself, am the project manager and I
have worked with Brad and the Wastewater plant staff very closely for about
the last five years. I have eleven years experience total. Stuart Hurley is a
new addition to our project team. He is interested in the project because,
aside from being a Carollo Engineer, he is also a resident of Meridian. So he
is going to working closely with the staff and ourselves. As a whole, Carollo
is a company. We have 22 offices across the United States. Most of those
are in the Western U.S. We have 500 employees. The Boise office has over
30 employees and we have the largest group of professionals that specialize
in water and wastewater treatment in the Treasure Valley area. Aside from
water and wastewater engineers, we also have structural engineers, electrical
engineers, supporting type engineers. This is a map that shows that of the
major treatment plants, treatment plants at large cities such as San
Francisco, Los Angeles, and Portland. We worked at nine of the fourteen
largest plants of the Western U.S. We can add a plant in Las Vegas that we
recently completed. We have started to work in the Seattle area also. We
are happy to say we can bring some big city expertise. What is not shown on
this map are the numerous smaller communities, where we do work as well.
What does all this mean? How can we benefit the city with our qualifications?
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We specialize in wastewater treatment. That enables us to bring the newest
technologies together with our seventy-year company history of experience to
the table for a project like this. We have proven our ability – Brad mentioned
bio-solids, dewatering project. That was a very successful design and
construction project out at the plant. So I think we have proven we can work
well together with the city staff. You are going to benefit by the evaluation of
the newest technology and our experience and our teaming relationship with
the city staff. We have local engineers that we have introduced here tonight
who will champion the project and help to bring it to fruition. I am going to
quickly give an overview of the planning and pre-design memorandums and
documents that we are going to prepare. Bill will talk in a bit more detail and
then after that I will summarize some of the costs that go along with this.
What we had proposed to Gary and Brad and the Wastewater plant staff, was
a project where we subdivide the process areas out at the treatment plant
into eight separate technical memorandum. We concentrate on each of those
process areas and determine the best solution for that. Then at the end we
will bring those all together and summarize those in a final report that is
acceptable and will be approved by state DEQ. This will allow you to get into
their system for the state revolving loan fund, which can provide money for
design and construction of your improvements at low interest rates. This is a
list of the eight memos and the facility plan report at the end. I will turn the
microphone quickly over to Bill who will give us more details on these.
Benko: The scope of work for professional services is for a comprehensive
facility plan. The plant has been divided into these eight areas and we will
prepare a technical memorandum for the areas that encompass the liquid
stream all the way through the treatment process as well as the solids and
residuals management. The technical memorandums are compiled and
summarized at the end into the facility plan that is submitted to DEQ. This
slide is an example of what goes into a technical memorandum. This
example we are using was one that was specifically completed for the City of
Meridian. There is a plant area. We start off with an investigation and a site
visit to really understand the existing facilities. Now technical memoranda are
interactive with the city’s staff. We start and review the existing facilities and
then we will scratch our head and come up with some initial technical ideas.
We meet with city staff regularly through this process to share what we are
finding and get their input. As we progress, we develop alternatives always
including reviewing the existing facilities on how we can optimize those and
make the most of their use. We identify new alternatives. We establish
criteria to select and review those alternatives and come down with a short
list, meet with the city further and identify the best approach. Under the
scope of our contract there are two main deliverables that come with each
stage and with each technical memorandum. The technical memoranda itself
is a conceptual design. How do we approach this? then we take that and
develop it even further into the preliminary design. We use a rule of thumb of
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about thirty percent complete. So, we prepare actual drawings that show how
the facilities area going to look, how they lay out, what kind of equipment.
The preliminary design permits you to quickly complete the detail design and
respond to construction either as priorities come up or as a whole project.
Now this slide shows the flow of the whole comprehensive facility plan.
Concurrently while we are addressing the nuts and bolts in the technical
memoranda, we also work with the state DEQ to identify the environmental in
the documentation associated with that. Even though this is a project that
addresses water quality, we need to make sure that our development doesn’t
impact some other area of land use or the environment. So we work with
DEQ in planning, sharing the findings of the technical memoranda.
Ultimately, we work to achieve the findings of non-significant impact, which in
general provides for approval of the construction of the treatment plant
expansion. The facilities plan along the way includes public participation
process. Also for the state revolving loan funds, Idaho has funds that are
available at about a four percent interest rate to help with the design and
construction of these improvements. So in January or February, you will take
what is known from the draft facility plan and submit a letter of interest to
DEQ. DEQ looks at all the interested applicants, develops a priority list for
the funding spending for that year and then issues the intended use plan for
that years spending. To be considered with your participation in the revolving
loan fund is how quickly construction needs to happen. There is no
guarantee that you are going to get funding the same year you express
interest in funding because there are other communities out there expressing
interest so DEQ looks at needs and develops the priority list. If you don’t get
selected for funding that year, you stay on the list waiting for those projects
higher on the list to get completed and you would move into the range of
fundable projects. The facilities plan, the comprehensive wastewater
document and the findings go in to support your strategic plan. Of course,
Meridian growth is the critical issue. The other issues are meeting stricter
regulations. There is a lot of water quality analysis going on and regulations
continue to evaluate on whether our streams are clean enough in their
present condition. The Boise River and the Snake River have been studying
the nutrient impact. Nutrients are typical nitrogen and phosphorus and how
those pollutants affect water quality. So if there is a water quality study that
changes the treatment requirements for nitrogen and phosphorus, that may
have a design and cost impact on the construction. Also with waste water
treatment plants, its very difficult these days to have your treatment plant out
on the edge of town away from development. The city of Meridian has
always been a good neighbor with their Wastewater Treatment Plant. We
will continue to develop these TM’s with this spirit in mind. Some examples
of that are an efficient foot print on the land use and profile of the treatment
plant. Perhaps truck traffic in and out of the treatment plant. Noise. You
haven't had any issues with odors from the treatment plant up until now, and
we will continue to develop those facilities in that spirit. This shows the
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general schedule of the technical stages in the facility plan. Basically, we will
work through the later part of this year, working with the plant staff, to review
the existing conditions and identify what is needed for the next growth cycle
from the technical point of view. Then once the technical matters are
prepared in a draft form, we will submit that with DEQ. The public
participation steps will be set up and worked out with the city. Then, this will
put you in position to at least express interest in submitting for the 2003
revolving loan fund and getting in line at least for the funding. And I will
return to Tim now to summarize.
Tekippe: Thanks, Bill. This particular slide is a brief summary of what has
been happening over the last ten years with the Wastewater Treatment Plant
in Meridian. Much to the credit of the Mayor and Council, Gary, Brad and
their staff, the treatment plant that serves the City of Meridian, has really got
the highest quality water, the most advanced treatment of any plant in the
area. With the incredible growth that you have experienced, you have really
done a good job in staying ahead of the growth curve and planning and
completing projects so that there have been no water quality violations. So
of course our plan is to continue that trend. If you look at the numbers, 1992,
there was about 2.5 million gallons per day of capacity at the treatment plant.
That size was doubled over ten years, which – that is right up there with the
fastest growing cities in the nation. There was several projects and I am
sure you remember most of those projects that happened out at the treatment
plant but there was a total of eight projects that the construction and
engineering costs total about nine million dollars to double the plant. The
cost of engineering is about 20 percent of that. So we wanted to give you
these numbers to relate what the current project and current plan will bring.
This says that in the next ten years, more upgrades are going to be required
to accommodate growth and accommodate these new nutrient requirements
that the state is bringing in an attempt to clean up the rivers in our state to a
higher degree. We are talking about increasing the capacity, almost doubling
it again and meeting those stricter limits. This is an order of magnitude cost
estimate that Brad and I came up with before we do the study. That is the
purpose of the study, to figure out what we need to build and how much it is
going to cost. So I wanted to present this number to give you an order of
magnitude on what we are talking about here. Rather than the previous
projects where the pre-design was done for each individual project, we are
going to do that all together in one large project at one time. This is a
summary of the engineering costs and the current contract that is before you
tonight is $235,000.00 and that is approximately $110,000.00 for the planning
study, to update the wastewater master plan. Then the $125,000.00 for
preparation of the pre-design drawings for each of these components of the
plan. So, that $235,000.00 is approximately two percent of the future
construction cost. That is in line with the industry standards for engineering
planning. Once this is complete further down the road there will be phases
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where we do final designs and construction management of the individual
projects. At that time, depending on growth and regulations from the state,
you all can decide to do that as one large project, two medium size projects
or several smaller projects. So I will quickly summarize. As a firm, Carollo
has national expertise in wastewater treatment. We have some good local
engineering support to champion your project. We have a proven successful
record in doing planning and design projects for the city. The goal really for
this facility plan and pre-design is to map the required improvements out at
the plant for the next ten years and beyond that. So with that, I would like to
conclude our presentation and invite any questions and comments.
Corrie: Thank you. That was a nice presentation. Council, any questions?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd. I guess you touched on this – DEQ and some other
environmental agencies are making a lot of stricter regulations and that sort
of thing. How do you anticipate that and are they kind of giving you a heads
up of what might come down the road aways? I guess that is always the
huge challenge of a city is anticipating those regulations and making sure we
are prepared for them.
Tekippe: Yes, and I think Brad has been involved and Bill has, with the state
DEQ and monitoring their progress for regulations. There is a study, the draft
has been completed for the Snake River Hells Canyon total maximum daily
load. That is kind of an evaluation of that particular area of the river and the
amount of nutrients and other pollutants, if you will, that it can accept without
impairing the quality of the water body. So that report has been completed in
draft form – is that, Brad, still out for public comment?
Watson: Mr. Mayor and Council, it is my understanding that it still is. We
have prepared comments in coordination with Boise City. We have been
involved in this for three or four or five years. It began with the effluent
trading program that was funded by EPA. We participated in that pilot
program for years. Very early on, we knew what could happen. Anything that
was proposed to us at that time could only get better. They gave us the
darkest hour scenario at that time. We have kind of had that in the back of
our minds the whole time. Really the only pollutant that really impacts us is
phosphorus. The others are non-point source problems.
De Weerd: I guess looking regionally, I know our city participates in those
kinds of forums, but for example, the new septic tank requirements. How is
this going to impact that? That has a rural impact but, in essence, I can see
where that will have some effects in the municipal system in having to pick up
some of that. I guess when we do this plan, as much as we can anticipate, I
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would like to see us a part of that. I do appreciate the breadth of your
experience and some of the larger systems that it looks like you worked with.
I know in the Seattle area, they are composting some of their waste and
actually selling it to the public. Those are the kind of things I hope to see in
these kinds of plans, things you can do.
Watson: Councilmember De Weerd, Mayor and Council. Coincidentally you
mention that – the bio-solids management study that Carollo did for us, their
initial project for us, that was the very focus of that study. That was at the
direction of a former Council member that we initiated that portion – the
composting portion of the study. They took a very hard look at it, and at that
point in time with our production, it was not economically viable. Part of the
scope of this project is to reopen that management study and look at that
again.
De Weerd: I would hope so. I am glad to hear that. Good deal.
Corrie: Any other questions? I am happy to say that ex-Councilman is here
tonight too. Are there any other questions from Council on the request of
Brad for the recommendation to agree with the Carollo Engineers, not to
exceed $235,000.00? Okay. If anybody would like to make a motion for that,
I would welcome that.
Bird: I would move that we approve the agreement with Carollo Engineers for
facility plan update and treatment plant build out pre-design on a time and
material basis not to exceed the amount of $235,000 and authorize the Mayor
sign and the City Clerk to attest.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion been made and seconded. Is there any further
discussion? Hearing none, roll call vote, Mr. Clerk. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
Corrie: Okay. Thank you, gentlemen. Nice job.
Watson: Thank you, Mayor and Council members.
2. Wastewater Pretreatment Program Fees: Set Public
Hearing for new fees
Watson: Mayor and Council members, the item that we have is a discussion
of the Wastewater Treatment Program proposed fees. I had delivered to you,
hopefully, today a copy of a memo from me briefly describing those fees, as
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well as, a pertinent part of the ordinance and a very poor copy of a draft
resolution. With me tonight to help answer any questions on this is Celeste
Vialet. I can never pronounce that quite right. She’s our pre-treatment
manager out at the Wastewater Plant. I’m going to just briefly run through
some of these fees and please interrupt me if there’s any questions. These
were developed similar to the Public Works review and inspection fees based
on typical vehicle, personnel and equipment costs. The first three fees listed
on—first of all, I want to make sure you all have that documentation. Is that
true? Okay. Thank you. The first three fees listed on there are review and
inspection fees. The first bullet point is a pre-treatment application fee in new
commercial construction. That is—often times we get a building permit that’s
just a shell with no tenants in it. Those still have to be reviewed for pre-
treatment issues and future pre-treatment, planning connections. The
second bullet point is a tenant improvement, where somebody actually moves
in and the type of establishment has to be evaluated for pre-treatment issues.
The third bullet point is a follow up inspection fee. The commercial accounts
are set up on a grease and interceptor pumping schedule and they are
supposed to send the results or verification of that pumping procedure at a
pre-determined schedule. If they do not get that, then the pre-treatment have
to go out and physically inspect it to make sure that that has been done, will
be done. The second category under sampling fee is intended to recover
costs associated with the pre-treatment staff going out and actually sampling
the discharge from a commercial or industrial account. This is normally only
required when either there is somebody who is chronically in violation. At this
point, from what I understand and maybe Celeste can help me out on this, in
the future with expected pre-treatment rules, this will become a mandatory
task of the pre-treatment staff on—
*** End of Side One ***
Watson: --accounts. The third category is surveillance. This is one that I
had to have explained to me several times. This is intended to recover costs
from investigations initiated for probable cause. In other words, is there’s a
petroleum odor that somebody notices from a sewer system and they call the
Wastewater Department and they have to go out and figure out who is
actually contributing that, gasoline, diesel, whatever it is. The time that
they’re out there determining that is reimbursed by the person that they might
eventually find in violation of the ordinance. Celeste has a very good
anecdote on that if you’re interested in hearing it. I can’t remember it all. The
fourth category under permits is fairly self-explanatory. EPA requires that
significant industrial users and there’s a long list of what constitutes a
significant industrial user. They must be permitted. It’s almost similar to the
City issuing a MPDES discharge permit to an industrial user. Those fees are
not determined at the time of application because until it’s reviewed during
the building permit application process, we don’t know what they’re
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 14 of 51
discharging. It’s sort of a catch twenty-two. So, what we’ve proposed is
that—best case scenario, when something came in for a conditional use
permit, we could evaluate that. That doesn’t always happen. Most of the
time, it’s going to be a project that doesn’t require a CUP and then, we’ll have
to determine the magnitude of what that permit would be during the building
permit stage. That fee would be payable prior to building permit issuance.
The minor industrial user is similar. I think the only things that’s changed on
that is the frequency. Yes. Then, the final bullet point under permits is a
septic haulers permit. This one is very self-explanatory. It’s for septic haulers
that discharge at the Wastewater Plant. It’s just so they can keep track of
who’s licensed. I don’t know if it’s licensed or who has a permit with the City.
That is all of them. We’d be happy to answer any questions you might have
on these.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I’ve got one question for Celeste. On your hourly figure, you’re figuring
it $17.34 an hour based on a $3,000 a month employee and $3,000 is the
gross, I’m sure. So, I think that’s a little cheap if you’re paying somebody
$3,000 a month and then you add about 30-35% for benefits. That employee
is probably costing you pretty close to $19 to $20 and hour.
Vialet: That’s very true. We tried to be a little bit generous with these figures
until we got this program up and rolling so that it’s not a shock to the public
because they’re not used to having these fees. So, we were trying to be a
little bit generous to see how this ran and maybe give us a little bit more room
in the future to change them to accommodate for those things.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: How will this be enforced? I know probably some of this should
be tied to a business license. How are you going to know about this? I
guess you only know about it through building permits and PI’s but we’ll
realize a number of people will fall through the cracks unless they’re going for
one or the other.
Vialet: That’s very true. Without a business license, we go on search and
destroy missions and if they don’t file for a tenant improvement, a lot of times
in the older part of downtown Meridian, you have these existing older homes.
They just move in one day and you’ve got a new business. They could be
electroplating down in the basement and with all those heavy metals, that
does impact our sewage system. So, without them filing for a permit and no
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 15 of 51
business license, it’s anybody’s guess, unfortunately. So, if they file for
tenant improvement or a building permit of some kind, that’s how we find
them. Business licenses would definitely help us in this aspect. There’s no
doubt about it. I hope that answered your question.
De Weerd: Kind of. Have you narrowed the list of businesses that you want
licenses for?
Vialet: Well, we can’t, really, because, for an example, there’s a donut shop
back east and they went to go and inspect it because they’re discharging fats,
oils, and grease. The gal said well, what does this door go to and he said oh,
that just goes into my other room and she said well, what do you do in that
other room and he said oh, I electroplate all the chrome stuff, do all the
chroming for all the display racks and she’s like, you what? So, without
knowing to the full extent of what every business does, we have no idea.
They could be manufacturing cosmetics and that’s fine but they could also
need to be permitted because they’re discharging so much more waste. The
criteria is derived from EPA, that tells you who has to be permitted. In order
for us to get to that point, we need to know what people are doing in their
businesses and we don’t know right now. So, it’s just kind of—we do a
survey every two years. We get every name out of the phone book. We go
pretty much door to door. When we’re out driving around, we make a list of
every single business and their address and we start canvassing them that
way.
De Weerd: So, I imagine, we’ll see something come up with the business
license in the near future maybe?
Vialet: I hope.
Corrie: We’ve talked about this a long time. Maybe we’ll get it done. We
have enough people who want to do it. I think so. I’d like to see it myself,
just certain ones, so you can have these things not slipping through the
cracks. It’s pretty costly when they do. Any other questions?
Watson: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Yes.
Watson: Thank you. At this point, we just wanted to bring this up for
discussion. I think the next step would be to schedule the resolution for
adoption. The one thing that I forgot to point out is that most of these fees
that I’ve brought to you, we’ve had a revenue projection, we’re really only
projecting about 10% of the pre-treatment program would be funded by these
fees at this point. Just like the Public Works review and inspection fees, we
want to get this in place for a year, see how it functions, see what the
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 16 of 51
problems are, find out what the actual revenues are and update as
necessary. This by no means is intended to fund the whole pre-treatment
program.
Corrie: Mr. Nichols, correct me if I’m wrong, but this will take a public hearing,
is that correct?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. These are new fees and,
therefor, they would require a public hearing. They satisfy that definition of
being more than 5%. If I may ask a question of Brad and Celeste. I see this
resolution, and now I know why I remember seeing some of these numbers
before or at least the categories. We did this quite awhile ago. Have the
numbers changed from—I can’t really tell from the draft copy. It didn’t come
through the fax machine very well.
Watson: Mr. Mayor, Council members, and Mr. Nichols. I don’t think they’ve
changed at all.
Nichols: Okay. Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. If you just let us know,
obviously, when the hearing is going to be sufficiently in advance ahead of
time, we’ll have a resolution prepared along the lines of the proposed fees
and, of course, we can modify those if after the public hearing you change
any of those fees. We can at least have a draft ready to go.
Corrie: Okay. Does Council wish to have the City Clerk set up a public
hearing time on this? Mr. Clerk, if you’ll set a date as close as you can for a
public hearing on this one.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: One thing that has been helpful in the past, Brad, is when you
show us also what surrounding communities are doing, kind of a comparison
chart. If you could do that, it would be helpful, especially, at the public
hearing.
Watson: Sure. I’m sure Celeste would be able to get her hands on that very
quickly. We can do that.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Watson: Thank you.
5. (Items Moved from Consent Agenda)
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 17 of 51
Corrie: All right. The next item moved from the consent agenda is Item A,
which was tabled from April 23rd
, 2002, order granting appeal AP 01-00 stop
work order at 2340 W. Franklin Road by Walt Morrow. So, we will hear that
one now. I guess we can start with Walt. Walt, do you want to start? I’m
trying to review this in all this time and maybe you can bring us up to what
we’re doing here and by the staff and comments too.
Morrow: I’m Walt Morrow, 2340 W. Franklin Road in Meridian. Where we’re
at here is this project has been delayed at my request until now. Where we
left the project in November was, essentially, that in terms of the history of the
thing, I had submitted plans and specs for a building permit, the same
process that I had used with four other building permits over the last 20 years
at this location. We picked up a building permit October 27th
of 1999, started
construction in 2001, ten months later, had a stop work order for extensively
P & Z issues. We did (inaudible) our first meeting between myself and the
Council and had discussion concerning those issues with the Council on
October 2nd
, did approve the rescinding of the stop work order and the project
to go ahead and proceed. At that particular time—I’m sorry. A couple of
meetings later, with the Findings of Facts and Conclusions came out for
approval, there were several incorrect areas in that and I asked for those to
be corrected. Then, Councilman Anderson asked questions with respect to
Fire Department issues. I was not able to answer those questions in terms of
the plan review process. We had scheduled another meeting (inaudible)
appeared and answered the Councils questions with respect to the process
that he used. He indicated that the process had not included Skip, in terms of
Skip reviewing those plans and specs for that project. The following meeting,
it was determined that Councilman Anderson wanted a review by the Fire
Department, which I agreed to. Then, from that point on, I had asked for the
issue to be tabled until now. So, that’s the history of where we’ve been.
Where we’re at now is the Fire Department did issue a plan review. The plan
review is based on an industrial building. The reality is that the requirements
of the UBC and their classification of the building are different than the
requirements for the Fire Department and their classification of the building.
It is a building that is not to be used other than by me. It’s not for rent, not for
lease, not for sale. It’s a storage building for things that I currently have
stored on my property that are out in the elements. The review by the Fire
Department, apparently, they weren’t aware that the building already exists
on the site in terms of structural things that they’re suggesting and the review
is not possible. It’s a pre-engineered steel building. It’s a package and it is
there. There were issues raised about water. There is no City water within
that location. There’s no storage capacity for water. So, those were the
issues that were raised by the review of the Fire Department. Where we’re at
for tonight is to answer questions that the Council may have of me.
Obviously, the staff, if there’s a representative from the Fire Department here,
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 18 of 51
he can review or answer questions that you may have in terms of their review
of the project. So, having said that, are there any questions?
Bird: I have none.
Corrie: Walt, have you read the order granting appeal overruling Planning
and Zoning Director’s denial of application. The last one says 10-02-01.
Morrow: Yes.
Corrie: Okay.
Morrow: That was the night that the Council passed the appeal and then the
Findings of Facts and Conclusions came a couple two or three weeks later.
There were some things on those that were inaccurate that I requested to be
changed and subsequently were.
Corrie: I guess the question is, do you or do you not agree with the
comments and requirements? It sounds like you don’t.
Morrow: I don’t agree, very candidly. From one perspective, the building was
bought and paid for and delivered to the job site so there’s nothing from a
structural engineering standpoint that can be done to qualify in terms of
construction. The building has divider walls and an area of separation. On
agricultural, if it’s classified as an agricultural usage building, then the
requirements are remarkably different from an industrial building. I think it
was also stated by Don Whitman, that in the County this particular type of
project is not even permitted through a permit process for agricultural stuff.
We can't do to the building what some of the suggestions are with respect to
the Fire Department makes. It’s physically impossible to do. As everyone
knows, there’s no City water at this location and I think the implication by their
rating that there’s a 40,000 gallon storage or pool of water. That’s not a
possible thing to do either.
Corrie: Is that zoned RUT or is that—no, that’s City limits.
Morrow: That’s City limits. Remember, it’s zoned light industrial. It’s
agricultural by grandfather rights and by usage.
Corrie: Okay. Any other questions from Council?
De Weerd: We probably need to hear from staff.
Corrie: Yes, we will. I will have someone get you back here. All right. Staff
comments, please.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 19 of 51
Watson: Shari, do you want to start? Or Joe?
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I could add a little bit of history to
it. The building permit was received without any review by the Planning and
Zoning department. Part of Mr. Whitman’s response to that was because he
considered it an agricultural building. Our response was that it was not an
agricultural zone. Everything on there is already non-conforming so, therefor,
any expansion of that use would have to be done through a Conditional Use
Permit. It was initially brought to our attention by the Fire Chief, Kenny
Bowers, who’s father lives out near there and he wanted to know why they
received a permit for that when they had no water out there. So, the stop
work order was put on the building because there was no fire flow for a
building of that size. The use wasn’t permitted. There was no certificate of
zoning compliance. It did not meet what our ordinance would require in terms
of a building permit for landscaping or setbacks or those types of things.
Initially, it came down to the Council only wanted to consider the life safety
issues of the building and that’s why they had the Fire Department do their
review and come up with their response to the issuance of the permit. That’s
kind of where it stayed. I guess Mr. Silva has some comments as well.
Silva: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I wanted to just kind of brief you
on the plan review that had been requested that I perform on the project. The
project was already underway when I came on board as the Fire Marshall.
Two different things. I was requested to review it as, if it was in the City, there
was one thing—what I wanted to clarify is that it was plan reviewed as a
storage building and not as an industrial building, as Mr. Morrow had
indicated. So, it was never indicated to us it was going to be used for
anything other than as a storage building so that was how it was plan
reviewed, in a light industrial setting. That would require a single fire hydrant,
given the type of construction. Another option that was provided to Mr.
Morrow for consideration was whether or not, if it was treated in fact as an
agricultural building, a farm storage building, whether or not we could take an
approach similar to what we do in the county, where we have a stand-alone
agricultural building where water supply is just provided on site in the form of
a tank. We categorized the building, quote unquote, as a farm storage
building used for dairy barns and equipment (inaudible), which I felt was an
appropriate classification for the building. That would be another option of
on-site storage if it didn’t seem feasible at all to extend water to the site. So,
essentially, that’s what the plan review process was all about with some other
miscellaneous requirements but that was the gist of the plan review that was
conducted by the Fire Department on the project.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 20 of 51
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: So, Joe, if we deal with it like it’s a rural building, an agricultural
building and these are in your memo are the requirements you would ask of
any storage unit like this would have to comply with?
Silva: Correct. Within the City limits, typically, this project would be classified
as a storage facility, which is what Mr. Morrow had indicated, and would
require one fire hydrant within 500 feet of the project.
De Weerd: Now, if I remember right, when Councilman Anderson had
brought this up, his concern was also if we don’t put out these requirements,
the City would be liable in case of a fire, in case anything happened. Is
that—is my recall correct?
Silva: Correct. A couple of things. One of the issues that potentially could
come up is that when Mr. Morrow approaches his insurance agent for
insurance, one of the concerns that they will express in all likelihood will be
the availability of fire hydrants in close proximity within acceptable, you know,
300 to 400 to 500 feet of the project. So, that would be one question that
would probably be posed to Mr. Morrow once he completed the project
(inaudible). The insurance probably would pose the question of what’s the
available water supply for that project. That’s going to be the concern
downstream that will have to be dealt with. The other issue, quite possibly,
would be the setting of a precedent where a commercial building, as
considered by Planning and Zoning, is granted a building permit for a project
within the City without available water supply, municipal service.
De Weerd: But, what is our liability in case of a fire? I can’t remember. I
didn’t bring my file tonight on all of the discussion we’ve had already on this
but it seems to me that Councilman Anderson’s primary concern was the
City’s liability if we approve this, what we are actually liable for.
Silva: Potentially, we have adopted a fire code in the City and we would be
caught in the situation where we had plan reviewed a project and not followed
those guidelines that had been established by previous Councils when the
uniform fire code, the 1997 Uniform Fire Code, which is the fire code currently
in place in the City, we would not be following our own rules and we have a
project here that it’s been brought to our attention where we have not stood
by those requirements as the project has gone through the City process.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 21 of 51
De Weerd: I guess I have a question for Walt. The Fire Department is giving
you two different options. One, if we treat this as a building that applies to the
City ordinances versus the rural water supply. Can you do either? I know we
can’t get a fire hydrant out there. We don’t have the water flow. But, can you
do the rural water supply requirements that he has outlined in his memo?
Morrow: I think his memo indicates 40,000 gallons. It’s a huge water
reservoir. Very candidly, there’s a couple of issues here. One is that my
insurance man rates the building simply as rural. There’s not an issue with
the location of a fire hydrant, in terms of that. It’s a ratings issue. The
second issue is that this very building that you’re sitting in has a variance
from the Uniform Fire Code. So, there’s more than ample precedence for
that. It was done by the Council when this building was built. So, there’s
ample precedence. I think the building is now some ten or twelve years old.
So, that type of thing has been used before by the Council to handle these
issues. Quite candidly, I don’t know what a 40,000 gallon storage facility
would cost, whether it’s an in the ground facility or above ground facility. I
can’t tell you the answer to that. I know that 40,000 gallon milk silos are very
expensive.
De Weerd: Well, if this is a requirement that they put on anyone who is
putting up a rural or agricultural use, why are we exempting one property
and—why don’t we just change the code, if it’s not practical to do?
Morrow: Well, I would suggest to you, that there are plenty of indoor riding
arenas and stuff like that that are two and three times the size of this building
that have neither sprinkler systems or fire storage or whatever. They’re all
through the county. I can’t answer your question. I don’t know how that’s
handled. It may vary from fire district to fire district but that’s the reality.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Go ahead.
Corrie: I was going to say, we’re talking about what Mr. Anderson said back
on August 21st
of 2001, he said, in my opinion, we’re not absolved from still
having that liability if there’s a life safety issue there. He didn’t want the
building permits granted even after the building was built, has been there ten
years, that issue doesn’t go away. We’re still responsible for it. I think you
were asking what his verbiage was there. Mr. Bird.
Bird: Joe, is this the same requirements that if we have a dairy farm come in
or anything like this that they have to, and the rural transition within our
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July 23, 2002
Page 22 of 51
impact area, that you’ve covered, do you require 40,000 gallon tank out there
on a dairy farm?
Silva: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Bird. That would be correct. This would
be the uniform requirement if we were approached with a similar project in the
rural. We’ve classified it as a farm storage building, which that’s the
indication that Mr. Morrow had indicated the use was going to be. That would
be the requirement for it. For example, at the Shaeffer View Estates project
off Meridian Road, they just put in a 30,000-gallon water tank underground
and we’re in the final stages of accepting that water supply for a series of
single family homes. I believe there’s about 20 lots there. I’m not sure about
the number of lots but that’s approximately the number of lots in that
subdivision.
Bird: Yes, but, you’re talking about a residential living thing against a storage
place that you have maternity cows. You might be in there one or two hours
a day at the most. You’ve got a storage in there that you’re going to be in and
out of. It isn’t as if somebody is living or working in there. 40,000 gallons is a
lot of water. I can understand it if you’re out in a subdivision that has this and
you’re going to have families living in a house and you don’t have water. I
disagree with Mr. Anderson on the point of liability on the City. If that’s the
truth, every one of these old buildings or that’s been passed under the code
without going, that don’t have panics on every exit door or don’t have this, the
City’s liable and I don’t think they are. I think that if Mr. Morrow was going to
set a shop up in there, have occupants in it. I would have no problem with it
because I understand, his application, about 50% to 60% of it is going to be
for a maternity ward for his calves and cows and the other is going to be
storage for his equipment. I don’t believe he’s going to run an office or
anything out of it. That’s something you guys can check quite a bit, I think.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Mr. Morrow, I guess one of the things I didn’t hear or didn’t see in the
information is what’s your alternative? I mean, what do you propose to do?
Nothing?
Morrow: There is no alternative. We have a situation where it’s not
economically feasible, obviously, to extend water and so on and so forth. The
40,000-gallon capacity, in terms of storage, quite candidly, I don’t know that
that’s even feasible. I don’t know that it isn’t but the whole concept of the
building was, had the requirements been there in the first place when it went
through the process, I would not have built the building. That makes the
building way too expensive for the purposes that it’s going to serve. It just
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 23 of 51
doesn’t make sense to spend, at that point, almost $200,000 to store stuff.
You can rent a lot of square footage for a long, long time for that kind of
money.
Nary: So, would it be fair to say, Mr. Morrow, I guess, your concern or your
beef here is the fact that these requirements are being imposed after the fact,
after you were given the building permit, after you were already in the design
and plan and everything else. If you had been told these up front, you surely
would have altered the design, altered your plans, or done something
differently.
Morrow: I wouldn’t have built the building, wouldn’t have even come close.
Nary: Okay. Thank you.
Morrow: Other questions?
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess just one. If you are to provide a water supply in case of a
fire, what are your plans? You don’t have any plans?
Morrow: I’m not sure I understand the question.
De Weerd: Do you have plans to have water available to fight a fire if it
should happen?
Morrow: The answer would be no, not at this time. It would be the same as
the building immediately to the west of me that’s approximately the same
square footage that has no water source either.
De Weerd: That’s Maple Grove RV.
Morrow: Maple Grove RV. That building was built some ten years ago and
was permitted by (inaudible) concrete and (inaudible) who built the building.
De Weerd: That was approved by the County.
Morrow: No. That was approved by the City. That’s been in the City since
1980.
De Weerd: And it was built after it was put in the City?
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 24 of 51
Morrow: Yes, about ten years ago.
De Weerd: Did we not have a uniform fire code at that time?
Corrie: We did.
De Weerd: And we ignored it then?
Corrie: We also refused to let the RV do any more building or anything else
with their Conditional Use Permit because of the fire—
Morrow: I think part of what the testimony, Bob, was that he was asking to
weld and do other kinds of light manufacturing processes within the building.
Corrie: But, he was also asking for a CUP to sell trailers and that and
because of the water supply and that, he still couldn’t get it. I mean, I’m
trying to find a correlation here. You don’t have water, if you have a fire in
your house and if we allow this, you don’t have water, if you have a fire at that
shed and lose your house, you’re still not going to save your house. We’re
getting in deeper here, to me.
Morrow: I’ve already been through that process once.
Corrie: I know you have. To me, if you’re in the City limits and that’s the
ruling now, if you’re in the City limits why don’t we follow the City rules. I’m
finding it hard to understand. Yes, you’re going to use it for a calving barn but
if there’s a fire there, we’ve got to be able to put it out. (inaudible)
Morrow: If there’s a fire there now, it’s the same situation.
Corrie: You’re in the City limits now.
Morrow: I know I’m in the City limits.
Corrie: You’re building in the City limits and it’s a new building. Do we need
to go by our present codes now since it’s being built now, rather than ignoring
them and let it go ahead and be built without fire protection? For me, I don’t
see that it’s a good thing for us or you, either.
Morrow: I understand what you’re saying but the point is that it was all
approved and construction began under the criteria by which it was approved.
The precedence is also that the building of approximately the same size
immediately to the west of me was built ten years ago with the same criteria.
Once again, had I known that the cost of the building was going to be driven
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 25 of 51
up by additional requirements at the very front end, the project would have
been dropped at that point.
Corrie: Did you not ask what the requirements were now as far as building
that building?
Morrow: This was the fifth building permit that I submitted for on that
property. I’ve had four permits there before through three different mayoral
administrations. The requirements have come back the same each and
every time. The current building department issued three of those, what
would be five permits.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Walt, what is the construction on the building? What is it? Is it block,
steel, or what?
Morrow: It’s a combination of block and steel.
Bird: Block four feet high and steel on up?
Morrow: That’s correct.
Bird: Wood or steel rafters?
Morrow: It’s all steel.
Bird: All steel rafters. Any sheet rock?
Morrow: The divider walls are steel, two by six studs, with sheet rock, five
eighths sheet rock on each side.
Bird: Double sheet rock? Five eighths inch fire rated?
Morrow: I believe what he called for was five eighths sheet rock on each
side, one layer.
Bird: And all the way to the roof?
Morrow: All the way to the pan, the (inaudible) pan.
Bird: Joe, on a construction like that, what is going to burn? Are you putting
any insulation in the steel part of it?
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July 23, 2002
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Morrow: That’s correct. It’s insulated under the skin, the steel skin.
Bird: Is that flammable? Joe, what is the track record on those kind of
buildings for fire?
Silva: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Bird. Typically, it’s quite obvious that steel
doesn’t burn, per se. The contents, which can be very variable and be some
very high dollar farm equipment, for example, and some of the livestock that
may be present. I’m not familiar with the going price per pound but I mean,
those are the type things that the contents do in fact burn and they do cause
significant losses. We had a hay fire, for example, just the other day in Kuna.
There was $250,000 loss in just hay outside. I know that Mr. Morrow has,
you know, antique vehicles and I’m sure that may be one thing he may store
there. I’m not sure, whatever he deems appropriate for his storage building.
But, those are high dollar items and those things do in fact burn because
some of the components are petro-chemicals or they’re, you know, equipment
that Mr. Morrow may choose to store as a result of his business and
construction. I mean, just miscellaneous construction things that do in fact
burn. I agree with you, the building is, in fact, not going to burn. We refer to it
as a type three non-rated.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Walter, are you going to have heating in it?
Morrow: No.
Bird: What kind of electrical?
Morrow: Just lights and 110.
Bird: 110? Any plumbing?
Morrow: No. Well, some water spigots for water troughs.
Bird: Well, for the interior but you’re not going to have sewer, water and
sewer.
Morrow: No. There’s no sewer out there. It stops at Interstate 84.
Bird: I forgot about that. Lights would be the only thing electrical you’d have
in there. Some plug ins, I’m sure.
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Morrow: Lights and some plug ins for water heaters.
Bird: No 220? Nothing for welding?
Morrow: No. No welding.
Bird: Okay.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: Will your home and your office out there, they’re supplied water
by a well? Is it a well?
Morrow: That’s correct. It’s a four-inch well.
McCandless: It’s what?
Morrow: It’s a four-inch well. A four-inch well, when they converted to water,
that was the biggest they built. Now, you can do six-inch wells for domestic
stuff. It’s a four inch well and a half horse power pump.
McCandless: So, your building is too far away to be serviced by that well.
Morrow: Well, it would have a spigot, you know, frost free hydrants inside the
building that would come from that well. Does that answer your question?
The four inch well was probably drilled somewhere in the last 40’s, early 50’s.
In terms of our sewer system out there, we still have the original outhouse on
the property.
McCandless: Okay.
Morrow: And it’s nice. But, having said that, the well is only 48 inches deep.
It has a half horse-power pump, ten gallon per minute capability. The static
water level is at 28 feet. So, it’s capable of supplying domestic needs and
that’s about it. That’s what it was designed for.
McCandless: So, there would be no chance of making that well deeper or
putting in a higher pump or something of that sort so that could service more
on the property? Your building that we’re talking about.
Morrow: Well, the building that we’re talking about would just have one line
coming off of an existing line and have frost free hydrant for water supply to
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July 23, 2002
Page 28 of 51
stock water and that kind of thing. In terms of increasing the capacity of the
well, no. I don’t know that there’s even equipment that’s capable of extending
four-inch wells. I think everything now, the minimum size is six-inch wells,
which would cost to drilling an entirely new well system. My neighbor across
the street just did one and they were at 128 feet with a six-inch well and that
was for domestics. If this well were to go bad and I have to drill a new well,
then I would drill a six-inch well to a domestic water level, which would be
about the same as the neighbor across the street.
McCandless: Well, that still wouldn’t service your outbuildings.
Morrow: Well, it would give them water. Are you asking me would it be
capable of putting out 40,000 gallons? I guess I’m not understanding your
question.
McCandless: I’m just asking if that would solve the problem that you have out
there with no water to control fire or something of that sort.
Morrow: The answer to that question would be no. No well of the six-inch
capacity at 128 feet is capable of creating fire flows that are 2,000 gallons per
minute and those kinds of things. Those take industrial wells, which are
typically, in our case in the City of Meridian, 750 feet deep. They’re twelve
inches in diameter and multi-horse power pumps.
McCandless: Okay. That’s what I wanted to know.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I just have one more question, Mr. Morrow. Did I understand you
earlier when you first started that all of the material that you’re storing in this
building already is on your property and it’s already stored outside on your
property?
Morrow: That’s correct, with the exception of some furniture that we use in
model homes from time to time for display purposes and that stuff comes in
and out. It’s currently stored at Merchant’s Moving and Storage and at
another facility on Commercial, 2212 Commercial out here in Meridian.
Nary: Thank you.
Morrow: Any further questions?
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July 23, 2002
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Corrie: Any other questions, Council? Any questions from staff? Okay.
Discussion.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess since I’m the latecomer to the party, I’ll at least see what
(inaudible) of what the information that we have but it sounds to me that Mr.
Morrow acquired this building permit and I think this has identified an issue
that we have wrestled with a number of times on other projects as well. He
did secure his building permit to build this building. As he said, this review is
after his permit was issued, after his plans had already been submitted. All of
that was done and then this fire review was done. It, essentially, sounds like
at Councilman Anderson’s request to get that done. I think it probably should
have been done but it wasn’t and we gave him a permit. We annexed this
property that doesn’t have water capacity to meet this need. We have
basically allowed the same type of uses in the area. This material is all there
on his property now. If it were to catch on fire now, which is probably a higher
likelihood since it’s outside, we have no water capability to put it out. We
have no water capability for the buildings adjacent for the same reason. I
mean, I agree with what Mr. Mayor said originally. I’m not in favor of always
granting exceptions and variances and things like that but I understand Mr.
Morrow’s dilemma. He came and asked for his permit, we reviewed it and
gave it to him and after the fact, we came and reviewed it and said, oh, wait a
minute, don’t build it, we don’t have fire capacity out there. I think he honestly
told us and I believe him, that he wouldn’t have built this building if they had
told him that. Once we gave him a building permit, he has a property right
that he had a right to go forward on. I don’t see that he’s at fault. I
understand our process just didn’t work as ideally as we would have liked
because I do think this information should have been told to him before we
gave him a permit. I don’t necessarily agree with former Councilman
Anderson, that we necessarily have some increased liability to the City if we
were to grant this but I don’t see how we penalize Mr. Morrow after the fact in
imposing these requirements upon him after we’ve issued him a building
permit. I think that’s really the key here, to me. We gave him a permit, he
went forward and then we said stop because we’ve realized that part of our
plan review process wasn’t done prior to the issuance of a permit. We’ve
wrestled with that issue on a number of other cases and I think this just
happens to be one of them as well. So, I guess, what I’m understanding is,
what Mr. Morrow is asking, is to amend these Findings of Facts and
Conclusions to eliminate the fire requirements from these findings. Now, I
don’t know whether or not process wise he still needs to have a variance or if
he doesn’t need anything. I don’t know. I don’t see any reason to penalize
him when—
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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*** End of Side Two ***
McCandless: Joe, what is the procedure when you get a building permit as to
fire inspection? Why wasn’t the fire inspection done before Councilman
Anderson asked for it?
Silva: Mr. Mayor and Councilwoman McCandless. I can’t answer that. I was
requested by Councilman Anderson to perform a plan review. This project
was already initiated when I came aboard as the Fire Marshall. Ordinarily,
the process, when we’re dealing with a building with absolutely nothing built
and I’ll explain that in just one second, we get a set of plans that are sent
over to the Fire Department for a plan review. The plan review goes back to
the Building Department and it is issued and made an attachment to the
approved set of plans that goes out to the project that the project manager
utilizes to guide the project through the process. In this case, I believe what
happened is, that this building was treated as an accessory building, as an
accessory use, and that was apparently how it was not plan reviewed by the
Fire Department and the project got initiated. We got in the situation we are
in today. Occasionally, we’ve tended improvements. That being interior walls
of an existing building, you know, interior modification of interior walls. Those
projects are so numerous that go through City staff that those are not plan
reviews. We do, occasionally, run into issues where the Fire Department
goes out on a final inspection out there where we don’t have an opportunity to
see a set of plans. We’re not even aware of the project in progress and we
are expected to go there and do a final inspection and we become aware of
several issues, some significant occasionally, that are existing out there that
we have to act upon and try to straighten out at the tail end of the project. It’s
just unfortunately how the process works, given the volume of tentative
improvements and new buildings going in to the City. That’s basically,
currently, how the process works.
McCandless: I guess my question is, what happened to Walt, wouldn’t
happen today? Would that be a fair assumption?
Silva: When you’re going out to build a building that does not exist even in
the form of a shell, we get a set of building plans from the Building
Department that we are expected to conduct a plan review on. Ordinarily,
they are sent over to the Fire Department for plan review. Apparently, this
building was deemed as an accessory building and not a significant project or
a significant change in the amount of fire load present on that building site
and that’s why it did not go through the ordinary process of a plan review by
the Fire Department.
McCandless: Well, what would you call it, if it was not an accessory building?
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July 23, 2002
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Silva: Then, it would be as Mr. Morrow has indicated during our discussion,
said it’s a storage building within the City, which the expectation there is that
it's going to have municipal services i.e. water supply and sewer. It would be
expected to have those things in place as a part of the approval of the
project.
McCandless: Thank you.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess, originally, we overturned the Planning and Zoning
Administrator’s stop work order or denial of application for the very reasons
that Councilman Nary suggested. You know, it was an internal issue. He
was granted a building permit without the sign-off of Planning and Zoning and
the Fire Department. Why is—it was an oversight or Don Whitman suggested
it, you know. He didn’t think it warranted it. Councilman Anderson thought
different, you know, our staff thinks different but the building is underway. It’s
sitting there without—I mean, there’s quite an investment there. So, you
sympathize on that. My only question is, will the City have any liability in this?
We can’t look back and we can’t look at it in terms of well, we’ve let people do
it before. We’ve kind of taken a stand and trying to draw a line in the sand
that we won’t continue to do things wrong just because we’ve done them
before. We have codes. We have to uphold them. This one has gone too
far. But, my only question is, are we liable? I thought that’s why this has
been continued forever and ever. I’d like an answer. Are we liable? If we’re
not, let’s move on this or not.
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I did some research on this. I
wasn’t able to find any Idaho cases that held, or at least appellate level
cases, that held the City liable for approving—there were some references to
approvals where building codes were not followed. I think you also have to
look at a number of issues in relationship to this building beyond the fire code
requirements that Deputy Fire Chief Mr. Silva suggested. One is that Mr.
Morrow has agreed to limit the use of the building. There are some things
that are in these findings and order that would limit the uses. That certainly
minimizes the potential for liability. I can’t say that there won’t be any
possibility of liability. My crystal ball isn’t that good. You can look at the type
of construction. You can look at what the building is going to be used for.
You can look at the type of restrictions that are placed on future uses of the
building. It may not be that long before you have water running down that
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July 23, 2002
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road, with issues related to the Ten Mile interchange study, sewer projects,
water. This is an area that’s zoned industrial and has been for a long time
and people that built north of the railroad tracks know or should have known
that it was industrial use. If they looked at the pasture, it’s one of the areas of
town that is potential to develop industrially. I don’t know if that exactly
answers your question but, I mean, that’s my perspective on it.
De Weerd: Now, when we get sewer and water there, because he is in the
City, he’ll be required to hook up. Correct?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. There’s a City ordinance that
says that if water and sewer is within a certain footage and if you’re in it, then
you do have to connect. Since he’s right on Franklin Road, of course, there
would most likely be a fire hydrant within the required footage to this
structure. I believe, and Deputy Chief Silva can correct me if I’m wrong, but I
believe that the fire hydrant would solve the fire flow question and solve this
fire code dilemma because there would be that source of water there.
De Weerd: Is there appropriate language that we can put in these findings
with the agreement of Mr. Morrow of hooking up when it’s available and that
he releases any liability to the City of Meridian in case of a fire? You know, I
just want to—I know you haven’t found any cases and I really don’t think that
Mr. Morrow would hold the City liable but I do think since that issue was
raised, it’s not an issue we should ignore.
Nichols: Councilwoman De Weerd, Mayor and members of the Council. It
can be written in to the findings that Mr. Morrow will issue a release of liability.
I mean to tell you, though, that that is not the end of the story because if
somebody else gets hurt or somebody else has some property in there or
some of those issues, that’s just not the end of the story. That might bind Mr.
Morrow and it might be a recordable document that might bind someone to
whom he sells this property in some fashion but it’s not the kind of thing that I
would—I mean, it would be great if you could get it but I wouldn’t necessarily
think that that’s the end of the issue on that part of it. As far as writing in a
requirement that he hook up when the water and sewer or just the water
alone, is really the issue. The sewer is not an issue with regard to this
particular question. So, that he connect to City water supply would be
sufficient to resolve the issue as long as there’s that hydrant within the
required minimum linear distance. Mr. Mayor, I believe Mrs. Stiles has a
question or something.
Corrie: Mrs. Stiles.
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I just wanted to know, as far as
the occupancy, Daunt will be the only one that will be able to sign that
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July 23, 2002
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occupancy because the Planning and Zoning Department and the Fire
Department will not be able to sign off on that. I don’t know if that helps with
the liability issue or not. The occupancy certificate would have to be issued
with only the Building Department’s signature.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: It would seem to me on this particular issue that the only language we
may want to include in this order is that pursuant to the City Code, he’s going
to have to hook to water when it is available. If there isn’t a hydrant within the
required distance, that he may have to provide fire safety requirements at that
point. I agree with Mr. Nichols, on Franklin Road the likelihood of that is
pretty small. I don’t think it’s necessarily reasonable—I don’t know that we
ask anybody else to give us a waiver to approve their permit. I think what we
may want to include in the language is that he recognizes at this time that
there is no water service there. I think we have required that or we have put
that in development agreements before that they recognize that at this
juncture, we have no sewer and water service to the site, that the risk is
theirs. Certainly, if there is a fire and someone sues us, although it is a fairly
remote possibility, we certainly are going to say, I think you need to talk to Mr.
Morrow about that, not us. We’ll have to figure that out at that juncture. I
mean, I just don’t see that we have—and the reason, I guess, just to be clear,
the only reason I raise the other property that are adjacent, wasn’t as good a
reason to grant a variance. It was that the risk to us is no different. If we
have risk at all, we already have it. So, it isn’t that that was the reason to do
it. It was simply that—I don’t know that there is any increased risk anyway
but that was my only point. Other than—that type of language, which I think
we could direct Mr. Nichols to prepare some other language and take out this
other stuff regarding the fire safety things and putting that in, I think would be
adequate.
De Weerd: I could live with that.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I almost believe that with the agreement that that group of people along
that area when they were annexed, have got an agreement that once water
and sewer is available that they will hook up to it. I’d be real shocked if they
don’t.
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July 23, 2002
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Nary: Yes. My thought was—just a reference, if there’s a City Code that’s
available to reference, we’d certainly include that reference that that’s already
existing.
Morrow: My point here would be that I don’t have any problem at all with it if
the water is being brought down Franklin Road, at my cost I would install the
necessary fire hydrants that service my 600 and some lineal feet of property
that I own. If the water line is coming by, feel free in the document to obligate
me to put in, I think it’s probably, every 450 feet, that would be two fire
hydrants within my property line. I don’t have a problem with that. I
recognize that the responsibility is solely mine. I have no problem with that
either. It’s no different than it is today.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Mr. Morrow, before you get too
far from the microphone, as I look at Deputy Chief Silva’s requirements that
are in the current draft of the findings, the only issues I think that may be
burdensome are Items A and B. A is the public water supply required. We
could probably amend that to indicate that there’s no water there now and
when the water is available on Franklin Road, Mr. Morrow has agreed to
install a hydrant within the required depth. Under Item 2, options to reduce
that requirement, that’s the one that has the—let’s see here. It talks about
walls and structural members and the rural water supply. So, it would be that
next part that talks about the 40,250 gallons stored in an approved manner. I
think that’s what I’m hearing the Council might want to take out. The other
things are an address on the building visible from the road, fire extinguishers,
storage not to exceed twelve feet in height, ceiling clearance at least two feet.
Morrow: All of those issues, Mr. Nichols, are fine. They’re standard types of
things. The property address, all 17 ½ acres, is 2340. There are already
street numbers that exceed the five-inch minimum on both the existing house
and mailbox.
Nichols: Okay. Then, Mr. Mayor, also a required item was if it were ever
going to be used for another purpose that then, there would have to be a
Conditional Use Permit and all fire codes would have—
Morrow: No. There wouldn’t be a Conditional Use Permit because it’s an
industrial zone. I think that what the discussion was by Mr. Whitman was, is
that at any time it changed, then there would be building permits issued for a
change of usage. I think also, if you’ll look, that I testified that the building
was designed and the materials and the quality of the materials were
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 35 of 51
designed and built so that at some point in the future it could change to
industrial use, at such time, services became available. Certainly, at that time
and through that process, any tentative improvements or changes in the
building, predicated by a change in usage, would be done through the normal
building permit process. Such as, we do tentative improvements in buildings
that we build within the City now.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Morrow is correct. I wasn’t reading it well enough but
it talks about a certificate of zoning compliance, commercial application
reviews to be followed including fire codes, if there’s some change in the use.
Bird: Mayor, I think Shari’s got a question.
Corrie: Shari.
Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council. Any other project of this type would require a
Conditional Use Permit. It’s more than one building on a lot and this is a non-
conforming use. It has, you know—the only uses there now are—there’s
already a house, single family dwelling. There’s an office building. This
would be turned into some type of industrial building similar to the one Mr.
Morrow has built over in Lane Industrial Park. So, as far as Planning and
Zoning, we wouldn’t be able to issue a certificate of zoning compliance,
should he come in for a building permit to change the use at a future time
without a Conditional Use Permit. I just wanted to make that clear.
Bird: (inaudible) discuss at this point. We can deal with that down the road
(inaudible).
Corrie: Those could be—
Morrow: I guess the issue there is if it’s going to be changed at some point in
time to industrial use and it’s an industrial zone property and the use is an
approved use within the industrial zone, why would you need a Conditional
Use Permit?
Corrie: Well, honestly, I can’t answer that.
Morrow: Well, neither can I.
Bird: We’re not worrying about that right now.
Corrie: Well, you’re right, Keith. We don’t have to. It’s just that I think-
Bird: Unless he’s changed his permit already.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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Corrie: Yes, well, it’s a—I don’t know. A round peg in a square hole or
something. Okay.
Silva: Mr. Mayor and Mr. Nichols. Just a point of clarification. Mr. Morrow
was correct when he indicated that the average typical spacing of fire
hydrants is 500 feet. So, his project with 600-foot frontage would, in fact,
probably have two hydrants. You may want to make that one of your facts
and findings, I would suggest.
Bird: That’s fine. When it gets there?
Silva: When municipal water supply becomes available. Correct. So, I don’t
know if you want to include that in Mr. Nichols facts and findings but we’ll find
out.
Corrie: Any other discussion?
De Weerd: What was that?
Corrie: Okay. Who wants to make a motion with all of this in it?
De Weerd: Bill.
Bird: Nary, we’ll let you.
Corrie: An attorney telling another attorney how to write it.
De Weerd: He has such good verbiage.
Nary: Mr. Mayor, I guess I move the approval of the order granting appeal
overruling the Planning and Zoning Administrator’s denial of application with
the following amendments, that our Council prepare some amended findings.
I guess we probably want to see them before we approve them but that
Section Three, in regards to the fire prevention issue, that the language be
changed to indicate when that service is available that the fire conditions
regarding public water supply will be met, that Mr. Morrow will hook to the City
water supply when it’s available pursuant to the appropriate City Code, that
we would eliminate the condition regarding other alternative compliance with
the rural supply and the other information regarding the alternative ones, that
pursuant to City Code, that when available, the fire hydrants will be installed.
There appears to be two fire hydrants be installed on the frontage of his
property at his expense and there also be a statement in the findings that Mr.
Morrow recognizes that at this time that there is no water supply available
and does assume his own risk in using this building for storage as outlined in
the findings. I think it has the limitations already. I guess part of my motion is
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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once we approve the findings, which I guess will be a couple of weeks, that
we direct the Building Department Administrator to sign the certificate of
occupancy and allow this to get occupied and done with.
Bird: Second.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nichols.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. As I drive by the buildings
several times a week, it’s just at the foundation stage. It’s not at the
certificate of occupancy stage.
Nary: Oh, okay. I’m sorry.
Bird: --issue the building permit. Re-issue the building permit.
Nary: I guess remove the stop work order and continue with the project. My
mistake. I’m sorry. Thank you. I don’t think there was anything else. Would
two weeks be adequate, Mr. Nichols, for findings? August 6th
?
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Yes. We’ll have the draft done
this week. I mean, we’ll have it done this week. We just wait on your next
meeting.
Nary: We could probably put this in on our consent agenda on August 6th
unless there’s some other question about it.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Yes.
Nary: Thank you.
Corrie: Okay. There was a motion and a second made. Any further
discussion? Hearing none. Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. All ayes. Hearing all
ayes. It will be on the consent agenda in two weeks.
MOTION CARRIED
Corrie: Five minutes break and be back in five or ten minutes.
RECESS
Corrie: The next item on the agenda is the discussion of approval of tentative
Budget. Stacy.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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6. Discussion of Approval of Tentative Budget: Approve
Kilchenmann: Mayor and Council. I think Will has passed out to you the
totals that you’ll need to approve for each fund for the budget. We also have
if you wanted to look again, at the final of what you appoved for each fund.
It’s on the screen. That’s the general fund. You’ll notice the bottom number,
the increase the capital improvement fund number is $66,000. That
increased from where we were before because in the flurry of moving, when
we moved the dues to the P & Z, we didn’t increase the general fund and we
should have done that. So, if you want to us to—I don’t know how you would
like to do it, if you want us to move the screen up so you can just look at each
fund or each department, if you want to look at the enhancements. So, there
would be other government.
Corrie: I think we’re probably pretty good. One thing I did want to—you did
mention about the senior citizen’s center, giving them that extra $5,000. We
have to do it differently, don’t we?
Kilchenmann: Yes. Maybe Mr. Nichols could address that question because
I believe it’s a legal question.
Corrie: --about the senior citizen’s, giving an extra $5,000. We can’t do
(inaudible)
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. We need to do some research
into that particular issue and I will get you a memo. I’m not prepared to
discuss it at this time but I’ll research it and get you something before the
budget hearing itself as to what can or can not be done.
Kilchenmann: We could always decrease the budget. We just can’t increase
it.
De Weerd: Yes, we had talked about that afterwards, that the $5,000 could
be dedicated towards the van service. Kind of in our efforts for mass transit
or alternative transportation that, you know, since we helped them with their
van when they purchased it that it could be dedicated to insurance, fuel, and
just cost associated to the van. In your research, the attorney can kind of
look at that. That would be good.
Kilchenmann: So, do you want to review this again or do you want just
approve the—
Bird: I feel very comfortable with it, Mayor. We went over the budget real
well and it’s setting here. She’s got it broken out like this so we can publish it.
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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We can be prepared when we have our public hearing. If we have to, we can
go into it at that point. I, myself, feel comfortable with it. I feel very
comfortable.
De Weerd: I haven’t seen any hard paper copy or anything but if you could
give that to us in the meantime just to update our—
Kilchenmann: Yes, we could. It’s just hot off of the press. In fact, she can
print it right now and give you copies.
De Weerd: Just by department, you know, not the whole line item stuff.
Kilchenmann: Yes, that summary.
Bird: Yes.
Corrie: Okay. Mr. Bird.
Bird: Mr. Mayor, I move that we take this proposed fiscal year 2003 tentative
budget as presented tonight for publication before our public hearing on
August 22nd
and get it published.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further
discussion?
De Weerd: Is this what we call, Mr. Mayor, blind faith?
Corrie: Well, yes. See no evil, hear no evil, and we speak the truth.
De Weerd: Did Tom stick his groundskeeper in there?
Bird: No, he didn’t.
McCandless: This isn’t U.S. Congress.
Bird: You can always take stuff out. You can’t add to it.
Corrie: All those in favor of the motion say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
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July 23, 2002
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Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess before I said aye I should have asked but this includes
the conversation we had earlier with the code enforcement and the new
planner?
Corrie: Yes, it does.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you.
Corrie: Okay. Next is the discussion of proposed exchange of surplus
property. Former Fire Station on Meridian road for other property and cash.
Mr. Nichols.
7. Discussion of Proposed Exchange of Surplus Property -- Former
Fire Station on Meridian Road for Other Property and Cash:
Approve – set Public Hearing date
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Mr. Amos had to leave. You
have before you an exchange agreement, which has been signed by Mr.
Zimmerman on behalf of Farmer’s and Merchant’s State Bank. Just to review
what this agreement does, the Bank has acquired some parcels of property,
which are adjacent to the former Police facility over here on Idaho Avenue
and they propose to exchange those parcels—you don’t have the
agreement?
Bird: Yes, we have it but I don’t know what I did with it.
Corrie: We had it before.
Nichols: Well, let me just go through it. Mr. Mayor and Members of Council.
I have one on my—maybe it’s because it’s my office copy. The gist of the
exchange agreement is that the City owns lots one through five in Block Two
of the amended plat of the original town site, which is the former Meridian
Road Fire Station. Well, up until the new facility was built on Franklin Road, it
was the Fire Station. The Bank is the owner of lots one, two, three, four, and
five of Block Two of the amended plat of Rowan Addition to Meridian, Ada
County, Idaho. The Bank’s properties are valued at $237,731. The City’s
property, the former fire station property, is valued at $260,000. The
proposed exchange calls for the Bank to exchange it's parcels as noted to the
City in exchange for the fire station parcel plus the Bank would also pay the
City an additional $22,269 in cash in order to equalize the value on the
exchange. The agreement is subject to approval by the City Council after
conducting the public hearing required by Idaho Code. It’s an agreement,
essentially, to make the exchange if, in fact, after the public hearing you
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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decide it’s in the best interest of the City to do so. Under the terms of the
agreement, the Bank bears the expenses of closing, including title, insurance,
and recording fees and that sort of thing. Again, the agreement is contingent
upon affirmative action of the City Council after a public hearing as required
by Idaho Code 50-1402 and 50-1403. So, if you authorize the Mayor to sign
and the Clerk to attest, the next thing that happens is a public hearing is
scheduled, there is a summary of action taken by the Council, which is
published by the Clerk, which references what is supposed to take place,
notifies the public of the date and time and place of the public hearing and
then at the hearing, if the Council or after the hearing, if the Council decides
to proceed with the exchange, then there will need to be an ordinance
adopted, which authorizes the exchange. An ordinance or a resolution. I’ve
got to double-check that. It may be just a resolution but there will need to be
a formal action taken by the Council.
Corrie: Okay. So, we need a public hearing, correct? The next thing after
we approve for me to sign and the Clerk to attest, set a public hearing.
Nichols: That’s correct, Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Do you publish it—how soon can the public hearing be heard?
Nary: It says 15 days?
Corrie: 14 days but count backwards. You’re good at that Will.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I would expect that probably
the soonest would be the third Tuesday in August.
Corrie: So, it would be the 20th
of August. Okay.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Get this up for discussion. I would move that we approve the proposed
exchange of surplus property with Farmer’s and Merchant’s Bank and for the
Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest and set the public hearing.
Nary: I’ll second. I was going to ask, though, does the resolution need a
number? Is it a formal resolution?
Bird: It’s a resolution, yes.
Nary: So, it needs a number?
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July 23, 2002
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Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council and Councilman Nary. There’s
not a resolution on this exchange agreement itself. It’s just an action at this
point. If I conclude it’s a resolution, there will be a formal resolution. If it’s an
ordinance, there will be an ordinance and it will be assigned numbers in due
course.
Nary: Thank you. Second.
Corrie: Okay. Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. All ayes.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: For the public hearing, it would be very helpful if we had
something that showed where these blocks were in relationship, you know,
some visuals.
Nichols: You mean a presentation?
De Weerd: That would be nice, instead of just lot numbers.
Corrie: Just the pictures of the fire station and the lots over there by the
police station.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I was going to say too, in addition to that, I think aren’t these
residences, some of them are currently occupied.
Corrie: Yes.
Nary: So, probably, information about when those leases run out and that
kind of stuff. I think you’d also—Council member De Weerd brought up the
question about the senior vehicle, the senior center’s vehicle that they
currently store at the fire station and what’s going to happen with that. So, all
of those issues probably need to be out on the table to discuss. Did you get
that? I’m sorry.
Stiles: So, you want some digital photos and maybe the art view information
from the base map?
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July 23, 2002
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Nary: I think just something so the public can see what we’re talking about. I
think we want to be able to show the public what we’re—what property we’re
exchanging for what but I think the other issues that we had previously
discussed, which probably the Bank needs to talk about or someone needs to
talk about, is I think some of those homes are occupied by people. I don’t
know how long their leases are. I don’t know when they’re supposed to be
vacating those properties or even if they’re of it. I don’t have any idea. We’d
also talked about the senior center vehicle. It’s currently housed in the old
fire station and I don’t know what particular plan we had in mind as to what to
do with that but I think we at least need to talk about it.
Stiles: Can I get a list of these addresses from Will or the lots and blocks?
Corrie: I think Will has them.
Stiles: Do you have them written down? Okay. All right. Thanks. I’ll get that
for you.
8. Water, Sewer and Trash Delinquencies:
Corrie: All right. The next item is water, sewer and trash delinquencies. This
is to inform you in writing if you choose, that you have the right to a pre-
determined hearing at 7:30 P.M., Tuesday, July the 23rd
of 2002 before the
Mayor and City Council to appear in person to be judged on the facts and to
defend the claim made by the City that your water, sewer and trash bill is
delinquent. You may retain counsel and the service will be discontinued on
July 24th
of 2002 or July 31st
of 2002 unless payment is received in full. Is
there anyone present who wishes to contest his or her water, sewer and trash
delinquency? Hearing none. I, hereby, inform you that you may appeal or
have the decision of the City reviewed by the Fourth Judicial District Court,
pursuant to Idaho State Code. Even though they appeal, their water will be
shut off and the amount of turn-offs is $23,315.96. Council, you’ve seen the
list of turn-offs. I’ll entertain a motion on the action.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move that we approve the delinquency turn-off list for the water,
sewer, and trash bills and service to be discontinued on July 24th
, 2002 or
July 31, 2002 for the sum of $23, 315.96.
McCandless: Second.
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July 23, 2002
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Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further
discussion? Hearing none. All of those in favor say aye. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
9. Ordinance No. 02-380 : for Water and Sewer
Amendments:
Corrie: Excuse me. Item number nine is a resolution number 02-380 for
water and sewer rate changes. Mr. Clerk, if you will read the Resolution
number 02-380. I guess we don’t need to have you read it. There’s not that
much there. By title only, I guess. I don’t know where it would be a title. I’m
trying to find the first sentence. I’m sorry. I’ll let (inaudible) take care of that.
He knows more about it than I do.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Resolution 02-380. A
resolution of the City Council of the City of Meridian adopting water and
sewer fees.
Corrie: Okay. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to have the
resolution number 02-380 read in it's entirety?
De Weerd: We do.
Bird: We do.
Corrie: I said audience. I didn’t say (inaudible)
Bird: It’s so small. We can read that one.
Corrie: It does have three, four, five other pages. Mr. Nary.
Nary: Just so I’m clear, the ordinance that’s next on the agenda is related to
this resolution. Correct?
Corrie: Yes.
Nary: Okay. Don’t we need to pass the ordinance first?
Bird: Yes, we do.
Nary: We can’t adopt the resolution of fees until we actually amend the
ordinance that allows us to do it.
Corrie: Okay.
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July 23, 2002
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Nary: I think we have to do it in reverse.
De Weerd: He was jumping up and down but we ignored him.
Corrie: Item number nine is changed to ten and ten to nine and the
ordinance number 02-967 for water and sewer amendments. So, Mr. Clerk if
you’ll read the ordinance number 02-967 by title only at this time.
Berg: Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. Ordinance number
02-967 an ordinance of the City of Meridian amending Meridian City Code by
either adding or deleting language to Section 9-1-7 B application for permits,
fees, 9-1-19 A (1) (2) (4) user charge, B (1) (2) charges for water and
installations, C (1) private fire service, 9-1-21 A termination of service, and B,
right to hearing, 9-4-24 A monthly service charges, 9-4-25 A permit required
fees and B, sewer connection charges providing for conflict, providing for
validity, providing a savings clause and providing an effective date.
Corrie: Okay. On further reading of Ordinance number 02-967. Is there
anyone in the audience that would like it read in its entirety? Hearing none.
I’ll entertain a motion on Ordinance number 02-967.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I would move the approval of Ordinance number 02-967 for water and
sewer amendments to the Meridian City Code as prepared and pursuant to
Idaho Code 50-902 to waiver any rules as allowed. The only other thing it
asks is, it appears to be fairly lengthy on whether or not we need a summary
be provided at a later time. It’s six pages. I just didn’t know how much it was
going to cost to print it.
Bird: Second.
Nichols: Mr. Mayor and Members of Council. I wanted to get the ordinance
to you and I will get the summary. I didn’t have sufficient time to prepare it.
Nary: That’s great. Just saves us a little bit of money.
Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Any other discussion?
Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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10. Resolution No. 02-380 : for Water and Sewer Rate
Changes:
Corrie: Item number ten, now, is resolution number 02-380 for water and
sewer rate changes. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to have
it read in it’s entirety. Okay. I’ll entertain a motion on Resolution number 02-
380.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I’d move the approval of Resolution 02-380 for water and sewer rate
changes as prepared for the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Roll
call vote, Mr. Berg. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
10-B. ACHD – Dissolve? Create Letter
Corrie: The next item is an added one, the discussion on ACHD, a letter or
message to Ada County Commissioners on the question of dissolution of
ACHD. We did get an ACHD reason for being tonight and we thank them for
that. I guess the question is, do we want to send a letter to the ACC people
saying that we don’t necessarily want a dissolution of the ACHD but we
should look at other means to work out some difficulties that might be there,
whether to do a letter, to do it by phone, or do both because it’s coming up I
imagine rather quickly that they’re going to have a hearing. Commissioner
Kingsford is going to ask for it anyway.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: The date has been set for August 28th
. I think over the last
couple of years that Shari and I have served, our communication with ACHD
has gotten much improved and I just can’t see—I agree with Commissioner
Simmons that unless there’s a proposal that comes forward that suggests
something that would work, you know, I don’t see, in my personal opinion,
that there’s a big issue. Certainly, if the cities were to inherit it or their own
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
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roads, it’s such a duplication of personnel and administration and there would
be no equipment transfer. We’d be starving from ground zero. I don’t know—
*** End of Side Three ***
De Weerd: --I think that if there are things that we have concerns about in
dealing with ACHD, now is the time to pull that information together and ask
them to work on it, come to the table, and try—if people think it’s broken, let’s
try and fix it before we throw it out. That’s my two cents.
Bird: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I’ll put in my penny’s worth. I have a lot of disagreements with ACHD
but I’m sure they have a lot of disagreements with the City of Meridian and
some of the things we do. I think that when they were originally set up, they
were set up as kind of an overseer of the deals and when the first bunch of
Commissioners in there, basically, most of the work was done through private
industry contracts. Now, they have built themselves into a humongous
construction company and staff, which is neither here nor there. Meridian,
Idaho, the City of Meridian, could not, for 7% that our taxes pay, could not do
the infrastructure. Absolutely could not and with our impact fees. I’m like
Tammy, I think that we need to work with them. I think our working
relationship has definitely improved since they’ve come to a five-person
commission. I think they try to listen. I’m sure they’ve got some complaints
against us. I think that we need to write a letter as public officials. I would
hope that all five of us would agree with supporting them, not supporting the
whole program but I think it can be worked out to the betterment and I think
it’s the only way that we’re going to have any infrastructure in Ada County. If
you split it up, it’s just duplication.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess if Council member De Weerd put in her two cents and Mr. Bird
put in one, I guess it’s a farthing that I have. You know, I guess my only
thought is, I would agree with what’s been said. I think the relationship with
the City of Meridian and the Ada County Highway District has been very
positive. I have heard almost every day from somebody that they don’t like
that bridge getting resurfaced or something happening in town and it’s
something we need to fix and, you know, I feel sorry for the Highway District.
You can’t do this in one day. You can’t do it overnight. There are a lot of
things that people get very frustrated by. They like the results but they don’t
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 48 of 51
like the road to get there. I think there are some real positive—but on the
other side, I don’t necessarily think it’s as horrific or scary either to
contemplate the dissolution of ACHD because it may not necessarily be the
cities doing it themselves. The Highway District, by statute, would have to
continue operating until a plan was in place. The County would probably
have to run the program and that actually gives me more pause than the
Highway District, in doing it. You know, I guess I’m torn only in the fact that I
don’t necessarily think it's the worst thing that could ever happen in this
community, was to not have another layer of government to have to work
through to get anything accomplished. I think that’s the frustration that our
citizens and we’ve felt. It’s just another governmental layer. They serve a
great purpose. There’s a good reason it was instituted. There’s a good
reason it should continue. I don’t know that all the alternatives are
necessarily better. I think they’re just different. You know, if we want to do a
letter, that’s fine. I think our presence would probably be better than a letter.
I think our presence would probably be a good idea to participate in that
because I think the Highway District and what the paper carries and the news
sees a lot, is the entities that don’t get along with the Highway District and are
always adverse to each other and we generally are. I think, at least, the
County Commissioners need to hear that not all entities have the same
issues with the Highway District and not all entities have as much problem
with the Highway District. So, yes, I don’t have a problem with doing a letter.
I think our presence would probably be better and at least, you know, if it
ends up in our lap, at least we’re going to end up going in with eyes wide
open. I think we should at least be there to say what our experience has
been.
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless, anything?
McCandless: Well, I certainly agree with what Bill said. I can’t see acting on
the dissolution because I agree with Tammy. We’d be in a real mess. We
have to have something in place in order to do that. I have my
disagreements with them but they’re what we have and I think the more we
support them, perhaps we’ll get even better service. I would go along with
that and I agree that we should be there.
Corrie: Okay. Do you want me to get a letter up and make sure that each of
you get a slot and place to sign and then look at it and have it ready for you—
what is tomorrow, Wednesday? I’ve got a deposition and litigation for all day
tomorrow on a case we’ve had pending, mediation is what it is.
Nary: If it’s August 28th
as a public hearing, we could have it at our next
meeting on the 6th
.
De Weerd: Yes.
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July 23, 2002
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Corrie: All right. Well, okay. I can get it to you by Monday.
De Weerd: If you can e-mail it to us, we’d have a chance to look at it and
give comments.
Corrie: Yes. Then, you can look at and see what it looks like.
Nary: And make suggestions if we want to. As long as we maybe at least
take some action by the 6th
, that’s plenty of time.
De Weerd: We can sign it on the 6th
.
Corrie: Okay. Do you want me to call Grant Kingsford and tell him that we
are having a letter coming and we want to be at the meeting on the 28th
, to be
there to give Meridian support of our thoughts and that?
Nary: What time on the 28th
?
Corrie: What time is that, Tammy? Do you know what the time it is on the
28th
?
(inaudible)
De Weerd: 7:00 in the evening?
(inaudible)
Corrie: Okay. So, that would be on Wednesday? Okay. I’ll call Grant
tomorrow and get the particulars on that and tell him our face is here and I’ll
get the letter worked up and send an e-mail. Keith, I’ll need your e-mail
address.
Bird: Yes. You’ve got it. I think it’s just changed, though.
Corrie: You’re the only one that it kicked it back to me. I will also call David
Wyncoop and Jay Sweitzer just to let them know too. Do you have anything
that you need to talk to Council about? Okay. All right. I know I’ve got
something else here. What did I do with that? Here it is. The next is the
Executive Session. I need some advice on some, attorney advice. One thing
before we do go into that, Debbie Salone said that there out at the Meridian
Greens is going to have a night out, a group of ten, on August 6th
from 7:00 to
10:00. The regular night out for Meridian was cancelled. But, they’re going
to have it so if everybody wants to go out there—well, we have our meeting.
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July 23, 2002
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De Weerd: We’ll miss our meeting.
Corrie: We’d miss our meeting. Okay.
Nary: We’ve got the Bear Creek opening tomorrow.
Corrie: Bear Creek opening tomorrow at 6:00.
Nary: Mr. Mayor?
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
11. Executive Session per Idaho Code §67-2345 (1)(b) and (1)(f): No
Decision
Nary: I move we go into Executive Session per Idaho Code 67-2345 (1) (b)
and (1) (f).
Corrie: The motion has been made. Is there a second?
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED
Nary: I move we come out of Executive Session.
De Weerd: Second.
Corrie: Motion has been made and second. All those in favor say aye. Let
the record show that no decisions were made at the Executive Session. I’ll
entertain a motion to close the meeting.
De Weerd: I move we adjourn.
McCandless: Second.
Corrie: Okay. Motion to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. All ayes. 10:20
P.M.
MOTION CARRIED
Meridian City Council Meeting
July 23, 2002
Page 51 of 51
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 10:20 P.M.
(TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)
APPROVED:
/ /
ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR DATE
ATTESTED:
WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK