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HomeMy WebLinkAboutSept 9, 2003 PreCouncil minutesMeridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 6 of 16 Item 4. Discussion with Lee Centers on Silvercreek Subdivision (fka Powder River Subdivision): Corrie: Item number four is discussion with Lee Centers on Silvercreek Subdivision. Also known as Powder River Subdivision. Okay David. McKinnon: Thank you Mayor, members of the Council. Dave McKinnon. 12552 -West"Executive Drive, Boise, Idaho 83716. I guess I'm back in front of you again just like old times and I know that you guys have had numerous meetings about Silvercreek, formerly known as Powder River. We really are not looking forward to rehashing everything, so what I did is tried to take everything condense it to tell you what changes we've made, tell you what kind of process we are trying to go through right now and tell you how you are involved and what type of information we are seeking from you tonight. I handed out before the meeting just a little packet of paper. If you could all grab that and we can go through this really quick. It's condensed, it'll explain to you everything that we need to talk about tonight. For those people who don't know who haven't been on the process before, this is just on the east side of Linder Road about a half mile south of Victory and it's located of course in Meridian's area of impact and that's part of the reason we are talking tonight. Tonight is different from everything else because in the past we've dealt with everything from a 455 unit subdivision to a 29 unit subdivision to a 39 unit subdivision and tonight we are coming forward to you with a proposal fora 44 unit subdivision. The reason why we came up with the number of 44 is because 44 is more than 39, it's also more than 29 but it's not quite that 455 number. It becomes a key number because that's about where the break even point would be for us as we develop this site. On the piece of paper you should have a little bit of the top area under what underlined and it says that we are dealing with 152 acres and there's 44 lots on approximately 17 or 18 of those acres and that is all that we would develop in this subdivision right now if that's your desire until municipal services from the Black Cat trunk become available. That could be limited by a development agreement. When I worked for the city there was some discussion as to whether or not the City of Meridian could by a third party to a development agreement with the county and I believe State Code 67-6411(a) would allow Meridian to become a third party to that development agreement. So the City of Meridian could allow the development agreement and be a signing party to that which would limit the development of this to just 44 lots. At the last discussion there was a great deal of debate as to whether or not this property should remain in the area of impact and because sewer service is a ways out. This would be a way of prohibiting it from continuing to grow until those services become available and keep it in the area of impact for the City of Meridian.. There's a number of reasons why this is a good project this time around as compared to other times. The first one would be this subdivision would be built to city standards rather than Ada County RUT development standards. It would be a rural, that would be one for every five acres or a cluster development. In the cluster development we would be looking at one to one and a half acre lots with their own septic systems, with their own Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 7 of 16 wells and we wouldn't have the typical curb, gutter and sidewalk. We would just have sidewalk on one side of the street. There would be no fire hydrants. So this would allow the City of Meridian when they come to annex this, to annex the property with all of those things that you would typically see in a city in place rather than having the rural feel and then annexing the property. Second reason why this would be a great deal for the city is because there is a city well - we would be developing and building a city well. This city well would be given first rights of refusal to the City of Meridian to purchase this at a later date when it becomes needed for the City of Meridian to provide water service to this area. We would agree to pay for sewer connections upfront. We would like to propose two inch water line that would reach from this development - a two inch sewer line that would reach from this development to the Bear Creek lift station. Therefore we wouldn't have a need for a package plant for a sewer system and has soon as the Black Cat trunk became available they would be able to hook up with the City of Meridian sewer system. The remainder of the property would again remain undeveloped. We would agree to pay for park impact fees right now even though we would not be in the city. We would have fire hydrants that would be part of the well agreement. Number eight is kind of an interesting number. We are basically looking for 14 more lots then we could develop in the county. In the county we could develop a cluster of subdivision with approximately 30 houses and we are asking for 14 more but it would be built to the city standards then county standards so that in the future when the city does reach out this far there would be an easy meshing of the two together. The final reason that we really felt that this would be important and for you guys to know is that the benefits would be both for the city and for the developer. The developer would be able to get a higher density there which means higher profit for him and at the same time it would be an urban style development that's been forecasted by the Meridian Comprehensive Plan. The Meridian Comprehensive Plan is shown in this area, three to eight units per acre, which is the same density we are proposing right now. If we were to go to a higher density at a rural development it wouldn't comply with the Comprehensive Plan. It is something that the city can keep us in line with because it would be through the development agreement to meet those city standards. The reason why we are in front of you tonight is because we don't have a path for annexation we are having to process this through Ada County. There is no way for us to be annexed into the city at this time, but in order to rezone you become a recommending body. We wanted to make sure that before we start the rezone process that this is something that you could live with and something that would be a viable choice for us as we continue to move forward with this project. The question of how this development is -the question is no longer is if this develops how will it develop, it's when this develops how is it going to develop? We are going to develop this property, we want to do it in compliance with Ada County's requirements and we want to do it within Meridian City's requirements. If we can do it with the approval of the City of Meridian, both the City of Meridian and us as a developer we're in a better position for the future. So we are asking tonight for your opinions on how this development should move forward whether you think this is Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 8 of 16 something that would be beneficial for the city as well as for us. If you have any additional concerns or questions if we could answer those now before we start the process with the county. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Dave on the issue of density. If it's in the county and the county rezones it to R-4, will they allow further density that's (inaudible) cluster density because it's in the city's impact area? McKinnon: Yes they would. If the city provides services to it. Nary: So the key would be the link to the Bear Creek lift station? McKinnon: That's correct. Nary: (Inaudible) question, Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Yes. Nary: Brad it seems like whenever we have talked about it that, I seem to recall that there's been Bear Creek here every single time saying no one else is supposed to attach to that lift station but them. I don't recall if that's by agreement or was that a written agreement or was that the Council's agreement. Watson: Council member Nary, Mayor, Council members. There's no official document that says that but when that particular Council made the motion to approve Bear Creek's preliminary plat I think part of the motion was that this was only approval to pump into another drainage area was only for that subdivision. I don't remember the exact language but we've been operating under the premise that no others could but there's no official document other than the findings of that preliminary plat that I know of. McKinnon: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, Councilman Nary. When Bear Creek was approved it was approved for a certain number of units and since that time Bear Creek's actually expanded the number of lots within Bear Creek and so there have been additional units already placed on that lift station then were originally approved. Bird: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 9 of 16 Bird: I believe when we passed Bear Creek and that lift station there wasn't any limit put on it other than the fact of how full the sewer line would be capacity of that. I believe at that point, Brad and Gary, we aren't completely to full capacity on the sewer line are we? Watson: Council member Bird. No the discharge, the line to which it discharges is not at capacity but the lift station was physically designed to only accommodate a certain number of lots. Dave is correct, there are more lots going into that now and that's simply because we have done flow monitoring to compare what we projected that would come in there, compared to what actually is in there. We've been able to squeeze in a few more. I think the additional lots are what you will see later in the agenda tonight. Bird: I don't recall that we had any kind of restrictions or anything else on that lift station, I don't recall. Maybe you or Gary do but I don't think we had any restrictions or anything on hooking up to it or anything like that. Watson: Council member Bird. There wasn't a resolution or anything that was approved by you or the rest of the Council that said this is it. It was more of an understanding and what we made into a policy that no others were going to utilize that lift station at the time. That's what we've told anyone else that comes along including that very same developer on his property west of Stoddard, is we are not going to entertain that. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: So Dave what is it that you are seeking tonight? I mean do you want us to give you an answer tonight? Or do you want us to make sure we keep this in front of us so set it over so we have -Council member De Weerd isn't here, we probably need some time to kind of decide what kind of answer we can give you. What were you thinking we would do tonight? McKinnon: Well we are under the gun a little bit to get this process rolling with Ada County because they are currently using our old Comprehensive Plan from the City of Meridian. They are going to be adopting the new Comprehensive Plan and all of a sudden the rules changed with Ada County. They've got that on their agenda to get rolling in October. So when we start dealing with the area of impact of Meridian and the way they've got it on the Comprehensive Plan all of a sudden it's going to change for Ada County. We don't want to be stuck in the middle of that change. So before October we were looking for an answer, some sort of warm fuzzy from the Council that would say, this is something that we can live with, its something that we doh't want to see. You guys have had numerous meetings. I know that Clint Boyle of Pinnacle Engineers before me, he had dozens of meetings with everybody from the Fire Department, to Public Works, to Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 10 of 16 meeting with the Mayor, to meeting with Tammy, to meeting with Ada County. We are starting that process all over again. We want to get to a point instead of spending all the time meeting and meeting and meeting to get to a point where we can say let's go with something that everybody can live with. That's what we are looking for is to find out if this is something that everybody can live with. That's what we are looking for is to find out if this is something that everybody can live with and everybody can be happy with. Rather than starting a whole new series of meetings all over again. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: I guess before - at least for me before I would want to do that I think I'd like to hear from Bear Creek. I see Mr. Amold here and I guess I'd like to hear from them because that's the way I recall it and I think Mr. Birds right and I think Brad's right that there may not be necessarily something in writing or there may not be a resolution. At least I've heard it enough to know that's always been there perception is that this wasn't -and if its not going to make it over capacity at that lift station that's fine but I guess before I'll be willing to give you any warm fuzzy I think I'd want to hear what they have to say about it too because they are the ones that I think at least are directly affected right now. Before we get to the other issues of annexation and the future and the other things, I think the sewer obviously is the lynch pin here. So I guess I would want to hear from them. I don't know whether or not we could request they come back next week, two weeks. Corrie: Next week you are going to have one council and Mayor gone. McKinnon: Mr. Mayor. Nary: Next week or the week after? Bird: 23`d. Nary: 23rd would probably be better, we'd all be here. McKinnon: Mr. Mayor can I ask a question? Just one question for you Mr. Nary. The concern with the lift station is that Bear Creek owns the lift station or the maintenance of the lift station is being handled by - I guess the - Nary: I don't want to cut you off, but I guess what I have heard for the last couple years from Bear Creek is that there was some commitment of some sort from this Council that there would be no other people hooking on to that lift station. That's been reiterated to us a number of times. I wasn't here when that was done but I guess I want to hear their side of it before we would agree because that seems to Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 11 of 16 be the key to your proposal and I'd like to give them the opportunity to at least give us their thoughts about that. You are right it has increased in size from the original proposal they've added on some other phases. It may not be a capacity issue so they may not be a problem, I just don't know that but I've heard enough of their concerns when other developments have come forward when other developments have come forward like the Valley Shepherd Church and when that Kodiak Subdivision before they purchased that piece. That I've heard it enough that I guess before I would be willing to simple say, yeah that sounds reasonable to us, that we hear their side of that since that would directly effect them now. Powell: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Corrie: Anna. Powell: Usually when there's an Ada County application it does come through our office and we offer comments related to the Comprehensive Plan. It would be nice if staff could have that same opportunity on this one. Bird: David I want to commend you guys. You have done a real good deal of changing this around and I think I'm like Councilman Nary, we need to straighten out the lift station deal. Bear Creek in it from what they originally passed and stuff has grown quite a bit. I believe that Kodiak and the Valley Shepherd, I believe they flow into a different trunk with their original deal coming down Meridian Road. Do they flow backwards Brad? Or flow to the west? Watson: Again, I'm sorry Councilman Bird. I had asked Anna a question. Bird: Just on the Kodiak and the Valley Shepherd new site out there. They would flow into the sewer that would be laid down Meridian Road as I understand instead of going back to the lift station. Watson: The new Bear Creek lots that occupy the former Kodiak project will go into the Bear Creek Subdivision and at the lift station. Bird: Valley Shepherd will be on its own. Watson: It would go north into the existing line on Meridian Road. Bird: Okay then. My understanding was the capacity of the sewer line. Is that called the Locust Grove sewer line? Watson: It was the Ten Mile trunk. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 12 of 16 Bird: Ten Mile trunk. The capacity of it was what I was understanding was the problem (inaudible) capacity of the lift station and stuff like that. They have added quite a bit of usage to it. I mean Bear Creek themselves. Watson: Yes, Council member Bird. What happened is if you recall we require them to build a parallel line to remove or at least relocate a bottleneck and they did that. They did actually create some excess capacity. There is still a bottleneck, it's just a bigger one in a different spot. The lift station was sized and constructed in the force main to only serve what we thought at that time would be the Bear Creek Subdivision. Like I said earlier we had done some subsequent flow monitoring and the unit flows are somewhat less than what we projected. There is some extra room at the pumping station. If I may just real briefly, in January there was a list of questions that Public Works had on this when Council decided not to entertain this proposal anymore. We didn't follow through, didn't follow up on those because there was no reason we had better things to do. So we would need some time to ask those questions and make comments on some of this proposal. Bird: Mr. Mayor. I would like comments from the staff, not only from Public Works, Brad you and Gary. But also Anna's staff and Anna because I think they have really went back and have done a commendable job at changing the thing and something that if we can figure out a sewer hook up or something that I might be able to support but I'm like Councilman Nary. I need some answers before I would make a recommendation on the deal even though -David you guys have done a real nice job of changing it and~getting it more in deal. I would like the staff to do it and if we put this off to the 23 would that give you guys time at the staff level? Watson: Mayor, Council member Bird. It'll give me enough time to transmit the questions to Dave but I don't know that it's necessarily going to give us enough time for him to answer them and for me to prepare comments based on his answers. Just as an example, one of these was talked about and maybe this isn't part of their proposal anymore, water facility O and M agreements, how are those drafted? We need to review those, whose involved in those. Review of a non-development agreement I would presume would be a fairly substantial issue, not only for us but for Council and legal staff. Very specific agreements on the construction of the well and details and specifications. McKinnon: Mayor and Council. I can address actually a few of those issues right now. It's expensive to do all those things that Brad asked. It's expensive to write up an operations and maintenance agreement. It takes time and money to do that in addition to that it takes time and money to come up with the well agreement before hand to do that and it's an awful lot of money to ask of us to come up with before we have any idea of whether or not this is something you'll even support. Those are typically things that get worked out as it happens. We've come to a pretty much straight forward discussion with you saying these Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 13 of 16 are the things we are willing to do. We would do that. The operation and maintenance is something that we could work out with the staff once that happens but it's not worth putting in more and more money. This project I know that the owner has spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get it to this point already and to say we need to see all these things before we can approve them is typically not the way its done. A development agreement for a typical subdivision in Meridian is not written up until the developments been approved. The same type of situation would be here rather than having all the legal documents in front of you now, we would agree in principal to all the things we've discussed tonight, those are things that could be worked out. Corrie: Well Daivd, I guess I'm going to throw the ball back in your court. Council has made it pretty plain to me that they want some answers and if you can supply them and take your luck in answering those we can put it on the September the 23rd. You realize that you are taking a risk here if you don't have the information they want: You may get turned down. Otherwise you can have it October the 7th, which is the next one we have. That would give you time to get all that information. So what do you want to do? Powell: Mr. Mayor while they are talking just because there is a fair number of public here I have to make a statement. I did work on this project for Mr. Centers so I would not work on this as it came through our office, just to clarify that point. Bird: Thank you. Corrie: Thank you. McKinnon: Mayor, members of the Council. We prefer to be in September. We think we could provide those answers if Brad's got that list of questions we will get those for you. Corrie: Okay. Well know you threw that ball back in my court. I'm going to ask the Council, do you want to do it the 23rd and then if you have enough information - Bird: That would be fine with me Mayor. Nary: Mr. Mayor. Maybe if we met at six on the 23rd Corrie: We can't do that we've got executive session at six o'clock. Nary: Okay. Corrie: That's in reference to - Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting September 9, 2003 Page 14 of 16 Bird: Well maybe we will just have this one thing for the half hour just at 6:30 to meet with and just have this. Do we have other stuff? Corrie: It's going to take an hour. Bird: The executive session is? Nary: I don't have a problem with even meeting at 5:30. Bird: I don't either Mayor. McCandless: I don't either. Corrie: All right then we will meet at 5:30. McKinnon: 5:30 on the 23`d Nary: And I think I can echo maybe the same thing that Council member Bird. I'd commend Mr. Centers for bringing this project back again. I know it has been a tremendous effort to get it to even this. You know I do want to hear from Bear Creek, I think the staff has to have an opportunity to comment as well but I certainly think it looks very attractive from what we've seen before. It looks like something that might be workable but I really do want to hear from all the other folks and have their opportunity to give us their input about it. McKinnon: Okay. Corrie: Then we could have it at 5:30 and notice it for that. You have 30 minutes, is that going to give you enough time? McKinnon: Depends on the list of questions? How fast you want me to talk. Corrie: Six o'clock we've got to do. There's no question about it. McKinnon: I'll talk very fast Mayor. Corrie: All right David. Then you will notify staff. Will you notify and make sure that Bear Creek is here. Well he's here tonight but he knows about it. 5:30 on September the 23`d in the Chambers here. McKinnon: All right, we'll see you then. Bird: Thank you. Item 5. Discussion of Utility Billing Directive Ordinance: