HomeMy WebLinkAbout2010 05-04Meridian City Council Meeting May 4 2010
A Pre-Council meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:07 p.m.,
Tuesday, May 4, 2010, by Mayor Tammy de Weerd.
Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, President David Zaremba, Charlie
Rountree, Keith Bird, and Brad Hoaglun.
Others Present: Bill Nary, Jacy Jones, Anna Canning, John Overton, Mark Niemeyer,
Tom Barry, Kyle Radek, Bruce Freckleton, and Dean Willis.
Item 1: Roll-call Attendance:
Roll call.
X David Zaremba X Brad Hoaglun
X Charlie Rountree X Keith Bird
X Mayor Tammy de Weerd
De Weerd: Well, good evening and welcome to the City Council meeting. This is our
regular meeting and for the record it is Tuesday, May 4th. It's 7:00 -- 7:07. We will start
tonight's meeting with roll call attendance, Madam Clerk.
Item 2: Pledge of Allegiance by Sydney Madsen.
De Weerd: Item No. 2 is the Pledge of Allegiance. Tonight we will be led in the pledge
by Sidney Madsen. If you will all rise and join us in the pledge.
(Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
De Weerd: Sidney, I would like to give you a City of Meridian pin. Did your brother get
one last week?
Rountree: Yes, he did. And he got a candy bar.
Bird: He got a candy bar, too. Give her a candy bar.
De Weerd: Well --
Item 3: Community Invocation by Stephanie Moore with Ten Mile Christian
Church.
De Weerd: Item No. 3 is our community invocation. Is Stephanie here? We will be led
tonight by Stephanie Moore with Ten Mile Christian Church. If you will all join us in the
community invocation or take this as an opportunity for a moment of reflection. Thank
you for joining us.
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Moore: Let's pray. .Our god, we honor you this evening. Just as we heard in our
pledge to our country, we also honor you with our presence here and we thank you for
your presence as well. We ask that in this meeting you would guide our leaders and our
community members, so that our community would honor one another and honor you
and become a place, even more so than it is now, that we all desire to live in. We bless
-- ask you to bless this meeting at this time in Jesus' name we pray, amen.
Item 4: Adoption of the Agenda.
De Weerd: Thank you. Item No. 4 is adoption of agenda
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: On the agenda tonight a couple of items to note. Under Proclamations, Item
6, that proclamation you will be giving is Building Safety Month proclamation. I think
some of the agendas said Building Services, but that his Building Safety Month
proclamation that you will be reading shortly. And, then, under Department Reports,
Item 11, that resolution number is resolution number 10-722. Also we want to add an
Item 12 and that is an Executive Session per Idaho Code 67-2345(1)(c). And with that,
Madam Mayor, I move adoption of the agenda.
Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and second to adopt the agenda as amended. All those in
favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 5: Presentations.
A. Swearing-In and Pinning Ceremony for New Fire Chief -Mark
Niemeyer
De Weerd: Item 5 are Presentations. Tonight I have the privilege to swear in our new
fire chief and so while I move down to the floor, if you will, please, join me, Chief
Niemeyer. Are you sure about this? I usually ask that when I perform marriage
ceremonies, so thought I would do it in this case, too, because it's like a marriage. Well,
if you will raise your right hand and repeat after me. I, Mark Niemeyer, do solemnly
swear, that I will support the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of the
State of Idaho, and the laws and ordinances of the City of Meridian, Idaho, and that I will
be -- and that I will, to the best of my ability, faithfully perform the duties of the office of
fire chief for the City of Meridian, Idaho, during my continuance therein, so help me
God.
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(Repeated by Mark Niemeyer.)
De Weerd: Thank you. Congratulations. Chief, I will ask if you would like to say a few
words and introduce your guests.
Niemeyer: Madam Mayor, Members of Council, again, I want to thank you for this
incredible opportunity. I am very honored, very humbled, and very gratified to be a part
of this city, to be a part of the staff that I'm joining, certainly to be a part of the men and
women of the fire department. I know that I couldn't be here today without the support
of my family. To my wife Cheryl. I couldn't have done it without you and I love you and
I appreciate your support. My daughter Halley. She had to remind me. I was telling the
Mayor Sunday she said, dad, have a great day at work tomorrow and it hadn't clicked
yet and I said, okay, no problem, honey. And I said what's tomorrow and she says duh.
First day on the job. So, to my daughter and my son, who can't be here, he was right in
the middle of a baseball game and they were getting whomped pretty bad, so I don't
think the coach was going to -- going to let him leave. And I'm very honored to have my
mom here tonight with me. I can just tell you I know dad's proud and that means a lot.
So, thank you. And to the members of the public, Iwould -- I would hope that you have
the opportunity to meet the men and women behind you. They are some of the most
incredible people that I have had the opportunity to work with and certainly the Boy
Scouts and the Cub Scouts, I hope you have a chance to meet some of our firefighters,
because they are amazing people. So, with that I thank you all.
De Weerd: Well, thank you, chief. Since you survived our first director's meeting, I
guess you have been initiated. Thank you for being here and thanks to your family for
joining us. We appreciate you sharing him with us and, hopefully, you're not cursing at
us after awhile. But we appreciate having him on board. Item No. 5 -- oh, Council, did
you have any comment?
Zaremba: Just congratulations.
De Weerd: Congratulations and welcome. I will say that Chief Niemeyer was at our
Mayor's Anti-drug Coalition town hall meeting yesterday and he was on -- on the site of
John Humphries that provided testimony who got in an accident drunk driving, he was
the drunk driver, he caused a fatality, and Mark was one of the first responders on site
and I will tell you he -- he proudly presented -- represented our community and the
department and I'm very grateful for the work that you shared with the families last night.
So, thank you for doing that.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: We all got to welcome Mark and congratulate him last week, but I want to
welcome Cheryl and Halley to the Meridian family and we are really glad to have you.
Thanks for being here.
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Bird: Thank you.
B. Plaque Presentation to Meridian City Council and Mayor
De Weerd by the Muscular Dystrophy Association for Their
Support of the Fill the Boot Event
De Weerd: Now, our next Item, 5-B, is a plaque presentation to the Meridian City
Council and Mayor by the Muscular Dystrophy Association for their Fill The Boot event.
Lewis: Well, thank you so much, Mayor and City Council, for having us here today. My
name is Stephanie Lewis and I'm executive director of the Snake River Chapter of the
Muscular Dystrophy Association and we are here to thank you guys for your support of
the firefighters Fill The Boot program. Firefighters nationally and in southern Idaho are
the single largest contributor and help us provide help and hope to families affected by
one of 40 neuromuscular diseases and Meridian Fire Local 4627 consistently ranks
among the top three departments in the state for total dollars raised and that's thanks to
their selfless giving. Of course, the giving of the community of Meridian and to you guys
for supporting our efforts and being out in the road for our annual drive. I'm joined by
Jessica Ross and her dad Wayne and mom Michelle. They have just a quick word for
you and, then, we would like to present you with a thank you gift.
Ross: I have been prompted to talk. She was going to say thank you, but -- this year
one of the things that the Fill The Boot goes to is the summer camp up in McCall and
this is going to be Jessica's first opportunity to go and are you excited about that? A
little bit? Yeah. So, we just wanted to stop by and say our thanks as well for all of the
continued support, because the things that the -- these monies go to are really helpful to
all the families in Meridian who are dealing with these diseases, so we just wanted to
say thank you.
Lewis: So, if I can convince Jessica. We do have a plaque for both Mayor Tammy de
Weerd and the Meridian City Council in thanks for your support of the 2009 Fill The
Boot which raised 23,077 dollars. Thank you.
Zaremba: Let me read what it says. It says MDA. In appreciation to the Meridian City
Council in support of the 2009 firefighter Fill The Boot program, 23,077 dollars raised for
local families. Thank you. And I have to say several of the years Ihave -- I have gone
out on the street with the firefighters and held a boot. It is very gratifying not only to see
the joy with which people give to this program -- and people pull up, they stop, they pull
out their ash tray and dump all of their change into the boot. Some people are able to
contribute dollar bills, but -- this 23,000 dollars is built up of dimes and nickels and
single dollars. A lot of people giving -- joyously giving, always say wonderful things
about the firefighters as well as they are doing it, but it's really a pleasure to receive this
plaque and it's a good program and we will continue with it I'm sure. Thank you.
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De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Zaremba. And thank you for being here with us. What I
would like to do is ask Chris Verkerk if you would like to come up here. Chris is the
energy and passion behind the Fill The Boot program and I would like to welcome him,
his passion, his efforts and maybe see if Chris wants to say a few words, because I
know this has a very deep meaning in his heart and I want to make sure you know the
real passion behind this -- this program. So, thank you for joining us and, Chris, would
you like to say a few words?
Verkerk: Thanks for putting me on the spot. I didn't know this was going on tonight, so
just -- it is quite a surprise to me. I just want to thank this Council and the departments
for your support. Thanks, Councilman Zaremba, for coming out and supporting us.
Those duties are now with firefighter Derrek Nelson. He has taken those duties on and
he's doing a great job with that. I still support the program a hundred percent and,
hopefully, I'll get to come and see your daughter at camp this year, so you can look
forward to some great individuals being at camp and taking care of your family while
they are there. So, thank you.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, while they are sitting down, I might add, this is what Chief
Niemeyer was talking about when he talked about our firefighters being extraordinary
individuals and people. They -- they are professionals, they do a great job. If you need
them for a fire or an accident, they are going to be there, they are going to do a fantastic
job, but they are also more than that. They are invested in this community and that's
something that they really give a lot of their time and energy back to the citizens of this
community and we really thank them for that. So, we are blessed.
Item 6: Proclamation.
A. Building Safety Month Proclamation
De Weerd: Okay. Item No. 6 is a proclamation. This month is Public Works Month and
this is one -- one of the events part of the entire month and I do have a proclamation to
read. Whereas the City of Meridian works to insure structures in the community are
safe, energy efficient, and sustainable, providing citizens confidence in our built
environment and whereas confidence is achieved due to the efforts of our building
safety, fire prevention officials, architects, engineers, builders and others in the
construction industry who work year around to insure the safe construction of buildings
and whereas the City of Meridian uses the International Fire Code, the most widely
adopted building safety, energy, and fire prevention codes in the nation and whereas
dedicated members of the International Code Council develop and implement the
highest quality codes to protect our community and the buildings where we live, work,
and raise our families and whereas Building Safety month reminds the public about the
critical role of our community's dedicated local code officials who assure us of safe,
efficient, and livable buildings. Therefore, I, Mayor Tammy de Weerd, of the City of
Meridian, do hereby proclaim May 2010 as Building Safety Month and call upon all the
people of the City of Meridian to join the fellow citizens across the United States in
recognizing and participating in the special observance and it is dated the 4th day of
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May 4, 2010
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May. I would ask Bruce Freckleton if he would like to come up and accept this
proclamation and make any comments if he would like to. Bruce.
Freckleton: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I just want to thank you for the
support on this. The month of May, as you mentioned, is the Building Safety Month. It's
sponsored through the International Code Council, which are the codes that we have
adopted, as you mentioned. Each week there are core themes that we are highlighting
in the department. We invite you to stop in and take a look and we have got lots of
handouts and brochures for each week for the themes. We do plan on doing
presentations on the plaza the week -- or, excuse me, on May 18th, which is the Public
Works event that we are having out on the plaza. So, thank you for your support and
that's it.
De Weerd: Thank you, Bruce. And it's nice to see you upright. Bruce just had back
surgery two weeks ago and I would like to announce that I am a grandmother as of 4:22
this afternoon. So, again, this is number two, although I do have six bonus grandkids as
well. So, I am not a veteran yet, but if I'm glowing that's why.
Item 5: Consent Agenda.
A. April 13, 2010 City Council Workshop Meeting Minutes
B. New Beer and Wine License Application for Brewtopia Beer
Market Inc. dba Brewforia Beer Market Located at 3030 W.
Overland Rd., Suite 100
C. Approval of Beer and Wine License Renewal for Groove Coffee
Located at 1800 N. Locust Grove Rd.
D. Sanitary Sewer Main Easement for Diamond View Assisted
Living
E. Acceptance Agreement for Display of Artwork in Initial Point
Gallery with Roger Lyngaas
De Weerd: Okay. Our next item is our Consent Agenda
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: On the Consent Agenda under Item 11-A, that resolution number is 10-722
and also want -- I'm sorry. Actually, we have nothing to add to the Consent Agenda,
believe it or not, for a change. I was looking down too far. Anyway, Madam Mayor, with
that on the Consent Agenda, I move we approve the Consent Agenda and authorize
you to sign and the clerk to attest.
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May 4, 2010
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Zaremba: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the Consent Agenda. If there are
no comments, we will ask for roll call, please.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 8: Community Items.
A. Annual Assessment Briefing from Robert McQuade
De Weerd: Item 8 are our Community Items. We will start with Item 8-A, our Annual
Assessment Briefing from Mr. McQuade. Thank you for joining us.
McQuade: Which microphone do I use?
De Weerd: You can take your choice.
McQuade: It looks like an octopus sitting back, all these things just sticking up, you're
afraid they are just going to wrap around you.
De Weerd: Well, if you don't watch out and if you don't tell us the right thing, it might
grab you.
McQuade: I will be on my best behavior I assure you. First of all, I want to thank you
for letting me speak at 7:20 this evening. A couple of weeks ago I went over to -- or it's
about 7:30. I went over to another community and they had not gotten me on the
agenda, so they had to amend the agenda. I actually didn't get to speak until 20
minutes to 9:00 and had to drive a long way home. I didn't get home until about 9:20
that night, so I really appreciate you giving me this opportunity to speak at an earlier
time. You know, last year when I was here I remember I couldn't get out of here fast
enough, because the news wasn't that. good. Well, tell you what, it's not any better.
really don't see any end in sight right now either, although I think we are getting close to
the bottom. But I haven't seen any real empirical evidence and I heard a report the
other day that said we have got another year to go before we see the housing market
flatten out, but I still feel that we have got to be getting close to that. Well, we are
sending out 186,000 assessment notices May 25th -- 21st, excuse me. That's when
those are going out. And 35,000 of those are to the citizens in Meridian. One thing I
have always thought it was clear, but I found out it's not really clear, and that is these
values are a snap shot in time and that is as of January 1st. When we get into May and
to June, values have changed and people don't understand how the value could be so
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high, because they are looking at it in June. As of the first three months of this year we
-- on single family residential we have already seen the values decline nine percent.
That's three percent a month. That's just amazing. And, again, when we send out the
assessment notices people are going to think that we are over-assessing, but we all
need to keep in mind that this is a snap shot in time, January 1st, and I feel that we did
really a good job of our values. The state tests the quality of our work with an analysis
called a ratio analysis. If we were assessing perfect to the sale price, our assessment
ratio would be one hundred percent. If we are less than -- now, these are on sales of
over 5,000 parcels. If we are less than a hundred percent, then, we are slightly under
assessing. If it's over a hundred percent, say it's a 105 percent, then we are over
assessing by five percent. Our ratio for last year was 97 and a half percent. So, we are
slightly under assessing and I'm just really proud of my appraisal staff for that, because,
you know, with market decreasing the way it was the previous year, I think they just did
a great job of keeping up with it and I'm sure we are going to have -- have the same
results again this year. Last year I tried warning people that decreased assessments
would not necessarily translate into decreased tax bills and that really was the case in
Boise city. If you saw a decrease that was less than eight percent, so if you saw five
percent or six percent decrease in taxes, you actually saw an increase in your tax bill,
even though assessments went down, because the -- in Boise city our median decrease
is about 12 percent, but the levy went up 15 percent. So, that pretty well gets washed
out, any decrease in value. And some people did see tax decreases. This year I think
it's going to be different. We are going to see -- and many are going to find out. We are
going to be seeing values continue to decrease, but I really do feel that a lot of the
governments really are going to feel that they got to bite the bullet, they just can't keep
raising the levy's to offset the decrease and that's just my guess. I think that's what's
going to happen at Ada county, we are going to be feeling the pain. We really didn't --
last year we made cuts and we did a good job, but it wasn't really painful. We are
putting our budgets together right now. It's what was done, we have not even gone to
the county commissioners yet. So, I think this is really going to be the year that's going
to be difficult, at least at the county. With that let me get started with the -- with the
report. Clearly market value in Meridian was 6.4 billion dollars and that's the value
before the exemptions are in place. That's 6.4 billion. That's about a nine percent
decrease from last year and the news just keeps getting worse in my report, so just bear
with me. The taxable value is 4.8 billion and that's off ten percent and the homeowners
exemption this year was 101,000 and the year before it was 104,000. It was 101,000
this year. I really got a feeling it's going to be maybe at 97, 98 thousand next year. The
tax commission will make that determination once they have got the data, but it's
certainly going to be less than 101,000 as values go down, the homeowners exemption
will go down, too. On the residential side, you have 30,700 parcels and that's up just a
little bit. It's up five -- about a half a percent over the. previous year and all of the
different taxing authorities in the county are experiencing the same thing on new
parcels. There is not a lot of growth, it's just -- it's fairly slack. The market value is 4.3
billion on single family residential and that's off 13 percent from the previous year.
Median decrease. This is the most telling and probably the most important to -- to the
people who vote for you and who vote for me -- is the median change on existing
residential, that's off 15 percent herein the City of Meridian. That ranges -- MLS as is --
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throughout the county ranges anywhere from 12 percent to almost 30 percent decrease.
I just got a chance to take a look. Our values, we are still working on them, they are
going to change a little bit. But we got some pretty steep decreases. The commercial
you got 4,300 accounts. That's up about five -- or five percent decrease. Not all the
personal property is in yet, so we will see more personal property parcels and more -- a
little bit higher personal property values. We had an appraiser who had a pretty serious
health issue, one of our personal property appraisers, she did miss about six weeks of
work. We are getting caught up. All this work will be done in time to close out the
assessment roll in two weeks, but the -- the commercial value is down a little bit.
Commercial value right now is -- well, it's actually up about about two percent. I think it
will be up a little bit more, but existing commercial is off seven percent and that's --
around ten -- it's between five and ten percent decrease on commercial. Now, this is
really a new piece of information and it's an important piece of information. As the new
construction -- the way the new construction works is the city, the county, we all get to
increase our budget three percent of the prior year if we want to, the three percent of
the prior year, plus it was called the new construction component and that is where we
take the value of new construction from the previous year and we multiply it times last
year's levy and it's a dollar amount, we get to add that dollar amount to the budget.
Well, this year the legislature changed how the new construction is calculated. Let's
take, for example, if there -- if someone had a -- had a large parcel, say a ten acre
parcel that was in ag and five years ago he subdivided -- he subdivided that. They
didn't do any real improvements, but just platted it for development, we would value that
as development ground, taking the ag exemption away. The difference between the ag
exemption was maybe a thousand an acre up to a development cost is -- goes into the
new construction roll. This year the legislature said that if it goes back into ag land we
have to decrease the new construction rolls by that amount. That's new. And because
of that we really haven't completed the new construction roll yet, because we are
scrambling trying to make this law work. The way the law is written, if this happened ten
years ago, we have got to go back. Say if it was added new construction ten years, we
have got to go back to that ten years. We don't really have as good records that far
back, so we are just having to go back as far as we have got the data. We are hoping
that the legislature will address this next year and say within the last three years or
something to that effect. But, anyway, there is that piece of the new construction and
it's important. It probably will go down a little bit more than where it is right now, but
new construction is 143 million dollars. So, you can take last year's levy times that 143
million and that's what you can add to your budget. That's down 44 percent over last
year's 265 million. Now, how does that stack up to 2007 when things were really robust.
In 2007 I reported to you that you had a 680 million dollar new construction roll. So,
your new construction was 80 percent this year of what it was in 2007. And I'm not
going to get -- to go into those, the residential and commercial, I have got the numbers,
I'll give those to the city clerk before I leave and you can have those. The last thing
wanted to end up with is just, again, to put things in perspective through MLS numbers.
In August of 2006, that's when MLS reported the highest median sales price of single
family residential and that was 242,000 dollars. And that was off of 2006. Market this
year, March of 2010, the median sales price, a single family residential, was 156,000
dollars. Let's say since 1968 we know real estate has appreciated at about five percent
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a year. If it goes back to that -- remember, two years ago we had 20 percent
appreciation in real estate, and 15 the year before that, but the normal since 1968 is five
percent. It will be nine years before we get back to that 242,000 dollars. Anything can
happen. You know, you could go back to see another 20 percent or another 15 percent,
but if it would go back to the norm, again, it would be nine years from today. So, that's
2006, that's another four years. So, it could be 15 years from the peak of 2006 to when
we get back to that again. I just -- to me that just really kind of puts everything in
perspective. Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, that's what I have got to tell you.
Again, I'll try to run as quickly as I can, because it's not good news, and I'm hoping that
next year the news might be better. But I hope that this is something that you can work
with and I've got copies of this and I'll give it to the city clerk and she can make that
available. Any questions?
De Weerd: Council?
Rountree: No questions, but maybe next year we can get you on at 9:30 and the news
will be better.
McQuade: I'll tell you, I hope I can. I really do. Because it's -- you know, to me, if I can
just really -- one anecdote. Three years ago the Board of Equalization -- and there is
one person -- I don't know their name, but I'm really glad that they got caught in this. It
was some kid that was about 28 years old, had a 1.4 million dollar house. We had a
discussion at one point -- at 28, 29 years old a one and a half million dollar house. He
got that house from construction, building these big mansions. So, the people are,
okay, so on the other hand, there are a lot of people -- a lot of people, young married
couples, 26, 27 years old, that bought their first house in 2007, trying to be very
conservative, a 225,000 dollar house. Doing things the way they are supposed to be
doing it and today that house is worth maybe 150,000, 140,000. Those are the people
that I really feel sorry for and there have been a lot of people that have been hurt -- hurt
by this, so I hope it turns around.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, a quick question for Bob. So, is it -- what's driving the rates
down, is it the forecloses, the short sales, is there some -- is it the amount of housing on
the market that banks are having to turn out there and sell and --
McQuade: It's the short sales are pulling it down. The foreclosures are pulling it down.
I don't know if it's this way this year, but up until this year it was the land that was just
imploding. A 250,000 -- a lot that would have brought 250,000 dollars in 2007, they
were asking 50,000 for that last year and they would sell it, you know, for 40,000 if they
could. A hundred thousand dollar lot, which was a pretty typical price in the '70s -- or
not '70s. Well, in 2007. A hundred thousand was fairly typical. Those lots today are
going for 20,000, 19,000. So, it has been the land is where we have really seen the big
-- the big decrease. Again, I don't know if that's what brought it down this much this
year, but that's what's really been driving it. You know, foreclosures, short sales, are
certainly a part of the equation.
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May 4, 2010
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De Weerd: Anything further from Council?
Bird: Thank you, Bob.
Rountree: Thanks, Bob.
De Weerd: Thank you for being here.
McQuade: All right. Well, next year I'll do my best to bring you good news.
B. Golf Course Update by Jerry Breaux and Erik Oaas
De Weerd: Thank you. Item No. 8-B is our golf course update. Erik. Gary. Clint.
David. Thank you for being here.
Oaas: Madam Mayor, Erik Oaas, 519 West Front, Boise. And I'm going to introduce
these fine gentlemen here in just a minute or two, but -- but before I do that I just
wanted -- Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I just wanted to, first of all, thank you
for inviting us to come and speak with you tonight. We have some important things to
talk about to you, about changes at the golf course, and -- and from our -- from my
perspective as the representative of the lessee, we -- we would like to come back and
speak to the City Council again in a couple of months in a more extensive manner to
talk more about long-term plans and where we are headed. But -- but we felt it was
important tonight and we appreciate you putting us on the agenda, because there are
some changes that -- that in the interim it's -- it's important for us to -- you know, to talk
to you about and there are a couple of items that we would like to have you -- you
consider and give us your -- your consent of. For the past several years, as you know,
at the golf course we have undertaken a number of changes and most of those I think
you're pretty well aware of, but those changes have included new tee boxes, new
greens, significant improvements in the clubhouse and -- and the restaurant area, but,
quite frankly, we are ready -- we are really ready to sort of take this to the next level
and, quite honestly, we felt that we had sort of stalled out a little bit and -- and so we felt
that it was -- it was time for -- really appropriate for some changes. There were some
issues that came up that, quite frankly, I'm not at liberty to discuss in an open meeting.
If Council wanted to go into an Executive Session and invite me to come and speak
about personnel related issues, I would be more than happy to do so. But suffice it to
say that we felt that there were some -- some changes that were necessary to make
and as part of that it -- it does give us an opportunity to take a step back and really take
the golf course, as I said, to a -- to a next level. As a major part of this plan we have
engaged with a firm here in the valley called Raven Golf Services. Now, Raven Golf
Services is a very well known and well respected golf course management organization
that's headed up by two principals, Jerry Breaux and Clint Travis and -- and I will have
them speak to you directly here in just a minute or two. Raven Golf Services, for those
of you who have not heard of them, they are responsible for the golf course
management at Banbury. They also manage the Osprey Meadows Golf Course at
Tamarak. They manage the Meadow Creek golf course at Meadow Creek. They
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May 4, 2010
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manage the Teton Reserve Golf Course over in Victor, Idaho. And now we at the Lake
View -- at Lake View Golf Course are pleased to be -- to be part of their management
family as well. They have -- they have certainly demonstrated over their many, many
years of experience how well they can do and have proven to do in their management
skills of all these wonderful golf courses. Now, there are, really, two objectives that we
have tonight. First is to introduce these -- these gentlemen to you, who I have had the
pleasure of getting to know over the last couple of months and -- and over the last two
weeks they have sort of had -- it's sort have been the -- where the rubber hits the road,
if you will. There -- we had a major transition in bringing them in and I can't tell you how
impressed I have been of them and their organization and the way in which they
handled this transition and their ability to roll up their sleeves and get in and get their
hands dirty and really get the job done. The second objective that -- that we have
tonight is to talk about a couple of changes that we have made at the golf course that
may have -- that may have caused some -- you know, some exposure to you at City
Council as it relates to some changes -- some immediate changes that we -- that we
have planned for a small portion of the landscaping and the change on the -- on the first
hole. In all instances the changes that we have made are intended to, number one,
improve the golf course's rating, improve -- number two, improve it's playability. And,
three, and even most importantly is the safety for those who are on the course and
those who are living in homes that border the course. So, with that, as I indicated, we
would like to be invited back in a couple of months to talk about, really, in more detail
about the long-term vision and with that I'm going to introduce the gentlemen and have
them walk through with you their philosophy on golf course management and some of
the things that they have seen at Lake View and some of the things that they -- they see
that may need some -- some immediate attention, one of which I think we all are aware
of, the disappearing of some very prominent piles of dirt that bordered the first -- the first
hole that we are -- sort of the first thing that you saw when you drove into the parking
lot. So, with that I'm going to introduce Jerry Breaux and Clint Travis. Jerry.
De Weerd: Thank you, Erik.
Breaux: Mayor, congratulations on your next grandchild.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Breaux: And Clint and I, not only are we in the golf business, we are the tallest
management team in the United States. We have that going for us and we are from
Boise, Idaho. We are really excited to be at Lake View. We both have -- probably
because of our age, but we have 75 years -- or 70 years of experience in the golf
business. We are both family guys. We care a lot about the direction of golf. We know
that golf can be used as a wonderful tool for kids and for adults. It's a game you can
play from the time you're five years old until you're 85 years old, like Erik. Oh, no,
you're not that old. So, we care a lot about golf and we have tried to incorporate as
much junior golf in the golf courses that we have operated. Clint and I were the golf
professional and the superintendent at Hillcrest Country Club. I was there for almost 20
years and Clint was there for ten years where we worked with the PGA tour, with
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May 4, 2010
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bringing the Boise open to the Treasure Valley and we have always had kids kind of in
our eyesight, even at Hillcrest Country Club, where they didn't really favor kids like we
did. But we try to do that at all of our golf courses. One of the issues I think that Erik
was talking about was the driving range -- we saw that the driving range was a little
short for the current golf clubs and golf balls that are being played right now. So, the
first days I was there I had a call from a lady at the far end of the driving range and she
was complaining about she had had golf balls hit over that 35 or 40 foot fence and they
have gone into her house and being grandparents we are very concerned with having a
little grandchild in the backyard or somebody out there and we just felt like it was a real
good idea in this current situation to not allow drivers on the driving range. There is only
a few people out of a hundred that could possibly hit it over that fence, but it doesn't
take very many, it just takes one person. So, we just put signs immediately on the
driving range that said, you know, please, no drivers and it did say, please, but we did
have a few people that were complaining about the fact that they couldn't hit their
drivers on the driving range and it's -- it goes from the west to the east, so that's
normally down wind, so we knew that that would probably be an issue and we didn't feel
like being new employers there, that we didn't want to hire a security guard to sit in the
driving range for 14 hours a day. The other -- I guess the other issue was Clint and I
both have been over to watch -- I watched his kids play there and I have watched -- my
kids grew up in the Boise area and my son and daughter both played in tournaments at
the old Cherry Lane, but now Lake View, and we have seen that pile of dirt grow over
the years from five, six, seven years ago it's gotten actually bigger and so I told Erik
when we first got over there I said those things drive Clint crazy. If it's backed in behind
a building it's not too bad, but if it's the first thing you see as soon as you drive up, that's
one of his buttons and, sure enough, a couple days after we were there Clint had a
tractor out there and we were moving some dirt -- or he was moving some dirt himself
trying to smooth that area out and trying to make it look better as soon as you drive into
Lake View. I guess there was another issue about a tree that was right by the cart path
-- a forward tee and that tree has already kind of torn up part of that cart path.
Travis: But it's -- right. It's starting to kind of tear it and we can bring up the visual that
will kind of show that, but, yeah, our two hot buttons, I guess, when we walked into Lake
View the first day was first off the piles of dirt and so that was our one hot button. And
the second one was the employee parking only sign right next to the clubhouse, so all
the primo parking spots were reserved for employees. So, those are the -- the first two
things that went. I told the staff -- I said take your time in taking that sign down, just
make sure it's down by 9:00 a.m. And so that was -- we just wanted to kind of send a
new message. I mean we -- we want to definitely keep the feel of Lake View. I mean
you got a special crowd over there and so we want to go ahead and keep that, but, you
know, our goal at the end of this is to make that facility better. We -- that's what we
specialize in, I think, is that we try and take -- take a golf course and make
improvements. Some real fast, some not as fast, and so that pile of dirt, that was a fast
one, and so we have kind got it spread out, we got it in rough shape, nothing's been put
in the ground yet, there has -- you know, there has been no steps beyond that, but
certainly we are here tonight to hopefully you guys can give us the green light to get
some irrigation on that and that's kind of a visual right there of this is kind of a before
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 14 of 52
picture of -- of what it looked like. And there is the next picture right here. Here is what
we would like to propose. This is in kind of rough shape right now, so there is the
proposed new tee box. There is the new proposed tee box. This all -- this whole area
will be -- we would like to grass and irrigate, we can go ahead and put in sprinklers,
probably seed or sod, depending on the timing. And, then, this one tree right here is the
one tree that we would like to remove for two reasons. Number one, obviously, we
would like to have that back tee -- it wouldn't be a tee that would be used very much. I
mean it was a tee probably four times a year perhaps, you know, if there is a pro am,
club championship, something like that, but that tee would give you the ability to get a
little tougher course rating, which is, you know, something a lot of people look at. So, it
gives you the ability. It doesn't mean you have to use it. And so that tee box -- but the
tees, you know, would, in essence, stay where they are at right now, but, again, it can
move back. So, we'd like to remove that tree, so that that tee box can be played. And
the second thing is we would like to remove it, because it is so close to the cart path
and that is a cottonwood and cottonwoods and asphalt, they don't mix very well. So,
regardless if that tee is built or not, that would probably be on our wish list to came back
and say irregardless of that tee or not, that it's either replace the asphalt or cut that tree
down. So, that's kind of what we'd like to do. I think there is one more picture. Oh,
right. Right. Maybe go back to that one. Sorry. And one of the things, you know, we
touched earlier is we are big on improvements and one of the things that -- that Jerry
and I have done at a couple different golf courses right now -- and this kind of just
jumped out at us is -- is to kind of create sort of a promenade feel. So, you know, what
we would like to do is remove one tree, but, then, go in with the planting all along there,
so kind of in a triangular spacing, so when guests kind of go to the first tee they have
kind of got an overlapping branch, if you will, they are kind of in almost in a grass tunnel
-- or a tree canopy tunnel, just -- you know, it's not going to be super dense or anything,
we'd go with kind of a lighter tree, but we just think that would just really give a nice feel
for the look. So, we'd like to take out one, plant seven, sort of scenario. You know, that
may or may not happen immediately, but that would certainly be in the plan that we
would come back to the Council with and, hopefully, you would approve it. And, then, I
guess the next slide. And these are some of the signs, Ijust -- excuse the writing. This
is me, so -- but these are some of the -- where the signs are typically and there is our --
there is the number one hot spot to the left where the employee parking sign was
removed, so -- so, if you have any additional questions concerning the construction
or --
De Weerd: Council, any questions?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Your gentlemen's reputation is second to none. I'm glad to have you on board.
Your youth programs are famous. Your golf courses are famous. I hope it comes over
the -- the main thing is I hope it's golf club first and a bar later -- secondary. I would
have one question. We have been told for, I don't know, 11, 12 years I have sit on the
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May 4, 2010
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Council here that we are going to grass the right of way down -- what is that, three,
where we go over the ditch -- the covered ditch, that was going to get grassed. I don't
think it's been grassed yet, has it? Is there a chance we could get that, Clint, grassed?
Travis: Well, we can certainly --
Bird: Or is there a reason we can't grass it?
Travis: You always -- the first and foremost is probably check with the canal company,
because, you know, we can definitely call them to see what kind of concerns they have.
I will be honest with you, I haven't spent as much time on the golf course as I'd like to
have. First off, we've just had a lot of internal things in the clubhouse that we are kind of
getting squared away, POS system is one of the first things we wanted to do. Kind of
expedite the check-in and checking out and I used to work with a golf course
superintendent on the course, Rich Rush, he and I worked together at Hillcrest Country
Club and I have complete confidence that he's a fabulous superintendent and so, you
know, some of the pressure on me getting out in the outside has been kind of taken off,
so I -- actually, I spoke with him this afternoon and said, okay, I have got a pad and a
paper ready and said I'd like to make a tour by myself and, then, we need to go. So,
those are the type of things we'd like to bring back to Council and say, okay, this is kind
of on our wish list and is it on yours and that would probably be at the next meeting we
would like to go and bring something back. But we are real big on grass, obviously, in
dirt areas.
Bird: You bet.
Travis: And that's why this clubhouse, I think it would just be a -- just be a massive
improvement to the look and the feel of Lake View.
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Madam Mayor. And these are probably more for Erik, being the lessee. Erik,
we -- we had a capital improvements plan presented to us, so when you signed the
lease and it went from 2005 through this year, and to be honest with you, the copy I was
able to obtain off the Internet off our system is illegible. But it -- it looks rather extensive
and I know some of these items have been done. I would like to see that we find a
legible version of this, make sure that those things that you agreed to do previously are
done and so these gentlemen start off on -- I don't see it's on their burden to do it, it was
an agreement that you made with the city and I'd like to make sure that those are done.
think they are, but I think just to clean up the previous agreement. The current
agreement we have with you lists owners that are no longer owners, as part of the
members of your LLC, so I think we need to clean that up. And in reviewing the
management agreement that you have entered with Raven, there is some items in that
that are not clear to me. I think they are probably unclear to our legal counsel as well,
as to ownership and particularly as it relates to infrastructure out there and water rights.
Actually, those are -- those are the city's, not yours, and that needs to be cleaned up.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
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There is some other issues there that I think we need to sit down with to make sure that
your new operators understand what really is there and what the expectations are in
that instrument that we currently have with you and I'm sure that that's going to be fairly
easy to do, but Ijust -- you know, let's start off on the right foot on this and, you know,
the wink and hand shake has gotten us in trouble more times than we want to
remember and we just want start off with a clean go. I'd like to hear a little more about
-- and I know you're putting together -- probably going to be putting together some kind
of a capital improvements proposal that we want you to bring back to the city, but some
other comments, some other issues that you're trying to address say at the clubhouse in
terms of its hours of operation and the kinds of services that you're going to provide,
what weaknesses do you see and are you proposing some strengths there and I -- Clint
or Jerry, either one, can address that.
Oaas: Councilman Rountree, Madam Mayor, City Council, I just want to be very clear
that the lease that the city has continues with Lake View Meridian investors and nothing
will change in that regard. The ownership or -- of Lake View Meridian investors has --
has changed. Dick Davis is no longer an owner in the LLC. The LLC is owned entirely
by Oaas Laney. My partner Steve Laney and myself. So, with regard to the obligations
that we have with the City of Meridian as -- as outlined in the lease agreement, there is
nothing that will change in engaging with Raven Golf Services. Our responsibility under
the terms of the agreement remain very clear and unchanged and we -- we intend to
continue to adhere to -- to that. All that -- that we had wanted to do is to -- is to bring in
some additional expertise in terms of -- of an operator that -- as I indicated, could sort of
take us to -- up to another level. I do believe that we had made some substantial
improvements from -- you know, at the point in time that we -- that we entered into the
lease, but I, quite honestly, felt that we had sort of stalled out a little bit and -- and we
were ready for, you know, some -- you know, some -- some -- I guess what I would
consider to be more professional, more organized management and that's why we
looked to Raven Golf Services. And we are more than happy to outline with City
Council and it's probably, Councilman Rountree, a little bit earlier right now to talk about
specifics, but most definitely -- I mean these gentlemen have just been on board for --
for acouple of weeks now, but we most definitely will be prepared the next time we
come with a -- with a more detailed outline and certainly will get a more legible copy of
that -- that capital plan that's -- we didn't purposely make it illegible. So, in that spirit we
are very much committed to continue. We are extremely excited to be part of -- part of
the blossoming of this -- this jewel for the City of Meridian and we do believe it's a jewel,
we have always felt that way, and we are just continuing to try and polish that a little bit.
Rountree: Thank you.
De Weerd: Anything further from the Council?
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 17 of 52
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, so should I have Mr. Baird get a hold of
Mr. Oaas, so we can finalize some of the details? Some of it's very minor stuff, you
know, there is an assignment that needs to be done and we can bring that back to the
Council or some of the other things, but we can get that process going, so that could be
parallel to what you're already doing, but we can get all the legal stuff done.
Oaas: Sure.
Nary: So, we will do that.
De Weerd: Yes.
Travis: Madam Mayor, Members of the City Council, if -- to be -- Mr. Nary, do you --
there are a couple of things that we would like to do. We would like to get -- we would
like to remove that one Cottonwood tree, we would like -- I mean there are a couple of
things that we have already done, getting rid of the employee only parking sign, there
was apile -- there was a pile of refuge on 18th fairway -- 14th and 15th that we have
removed and gotten rid of, so -- but there are certain things that have been taken care
of and we just would like the City Council's consent to allow us to go forward and finish
-- finish this championship tee on the first hole and get rid of that -- that tree that we
think is very problematic, with the understanding that that -- that that tee will only be
used for three or four events during the course of the year, but it is -- it may seem small,
but when you drive up and you see those piles of dirt gone now, it's -- it's very
impressive and it's nice. So, I would ask the Council's consent for -- for just those few
changes.
De Weerd: I don't think there is any problem, unless Council suggests otherwise.
Bird: I think it's great.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, that's within the bounds of the lease that's been negotiated.
It sounds to me like it's -- it's one for more, ultimately, and it is a problem. It's not just a
problem on your golf course, it's a problem in several parks as it relates to walking
paths. So, we do remove trees occasionally, but typically replace them as well, so --
Oaas: You have heard from these gentlemen what their feelings are removing trees
and replacing them, so you have that commitment.
De Weerd: Well, we appreciate you coming in and giving an initial report, look forward
to you coming back after you have done your assessment and hear the longer term
plans and thank you for removing those dirt piles and the refuge pile and so --
Rountree: Madam Mayor, if I might, just give me -- give us a general -- an idea of what
we might be seeing next -- in a couple of months, three months?
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May 4, 2010
Page 18 of 52
Oaas: Three months would -- I think would be, yeah, realistic. Three months would
work out very well.
Rountree: And Ted will be getting probably a hold of either you, Erik, or your attorney
working out the fine points.
Oaas: Absolutely.
Rountree: Okay.
De Weerd: So, Council, if it works and if it works for you the second week of August?
Breaux: Perfect.
De Weerd: Okay. Very good.
Oaas: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. We appreciate it. Thank
you.
Bird: Thank you.
Item 9: Items Moved From Consent Agenda.
De Weerd: Okay. There were no items moved from the Consent Agenda.
Item 10: Action Items.
A. Public Hearing: Sanitary Services Company 2010 Proposed
Fee Schedule
De Weerd: So, we will move to Item No. 10, which is a public hearing on SSC 2010
proposed fee schedule.
Sedlacek: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, thanks very much for hearing this
tonight. My name is Steve Sedlacek of Sanitary Service. We have been in front of you
many times recently about the change to the solid waste collection system and this rate
structure that we have before you is related to that. It ties to the change to automated
collection. It is something we developed over -- we have been having these discussions
for at least a year. Many public meetings at our facility. Public hearings. Solid Waste
Advisory Committee meetings. The rate structure has been developed in conjunction
with the solid waste advisory committee. I was also hoping tonight that -- I'm not sure
it's on the agenda, but there has been changes to the city code proposed related to this
change over. I'm not sure if that was part of this tonight.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, it's not. We are still -- there is still some
bugs to work out in that and, of course, the change doesn't need to be effective until
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May 4, 2010
Page 19 of 52
July, so our intent is to probably bring it back by the end of this month and have all the
necessary changes to the code. So -- so, it isn't part of tonight's discussion.
Sedlacek: All right. Thank you. I don't have the rate -- the rate structure electronically
to show on the overheads. I think you have it in your packets. We have had it in front
of you many times. Basically, it's a system where -- a rate structure where if you put out
more waste you pay more and if you put out less you pay less and what we have now
is, obviously, unlimited collection for one rate. So, we are trying to get some equity into
the system where it's more like any other utility where, you know, the more water you
use or the more electricity you use the more you pay and the same would be true of
waste collection also, so -- oh, there it is right there. So, I don't know if you have any
questions for me. I don't have anything new to tell you tonight. There has been no
changes since the last time we were in front of you. I -- but throw it open for questions
from you at this point.
De Weerd: Thank you. And, Council, any questions?
Bird: I don't have any.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, I just have one question that was thrown at me here the other
day. If someone wanted to know that -- well, if I chose the wrong cart and I wanted to
exchange it for a larger cart and I have got a pickup truck, can I throw it in the truck,
come down, will they charge me the fee and that was a question and I said that's a good
question, I'll find out.
Sedlacek: It is a good question and I haven't thought about that. Honestly, you know,
the fee is for us to get to the house and I get a man out there and so if they want to
deliver it -- if they want to bring it to us and exchange it, we can do that for free. That's
fine. I have no problem with that.
Hoaglun: It made sense to do it that way, if they were able to do that. Yeah.
Sedlacek: Yes.
Hoaglun: No cost to you in doing that, so --
Sedlacek: Right. That seems equitable to me.
Hoaglun: Okay. Thanks.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: You may have mentioned this other times, but will the carts have a serial
number on them, so you know if somebody is bringing somebody's else cart to you?
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 20 of 52
Sedlacek: Yes, sir. They are serial numbered and the newer ones are bar coded. We
don't have a bar code scanner at this point. We are -- at this point we are just going to
kind of do it the old fashioned way and keep track of everyone's number as best we can
and that will be tied in our computer system to your address, so when you come in if
you wanted to exchange it, we could look it up and make sure it was the right one and
put in a number.
De Weerd: Okay. Anything further at this point, Council? Okay. Thank you.
Sedlacek: Thank you.
De Weerd: This is a public hearing. Is there any member of the public who would like
to provide testimony on this item? If you would so desire I'd invite you forward. I do
have two people that signed up, Jessica Ingersoll signed up in favor of it. If you would
like to provide testimony or I did read that into the record. If you will, please, state your
name and address for the record.
Ingersoll: Jessica Ingersoll. 2316 North Hyde Avenue.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Ingersoll: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Ijust -- I have done a lot of research
on the proposed changes to the sanitation system since I heard about it last. Have
been out of the state attending school, but as soon as we received the pamphlet with
our bill, I started looking into things and I was very skeptical of the proposal originally,
because I didn't like the idea of a mechanical arm reaching out and grabbling garbage
and us being -- having to change the amount that we put out, I just liked the original
system, but as I looked into it I found that it was good, because it did encourage
recycling, which I thought was a very good idea. I also was concerned about the jobs
that would be lost by those people that were collecting garbage in the first place, that
was one thing that concerned me a little. I also appreciated the small fee, two dollars,
for an additional can, I thought that was very good. And I was concerned with one other
thing. If people do find that this is a system that they don't appreciate, I was worried
that they will find alternate ways of disposing of their waste. I'm sure you have
discussed this already or I would hope that you have addressed it, but that was one of
the things that did come to mind that may be a potential problem. But, otherwise, I do
feel that the entire project is a good idea, but I think the -- the fees, as I looked at them,
are only about a penny less for the largest ones than people are paying right now, so I
proposed that -- or I thought that maybe it would be a good idea to lower those fees a
bit, so that the largest -- largest can -- I think you had down as $16.32 might be 14 and
12 and ten, I thought that would be appreciated by the public a little more and that this
will be an inconvenience in some cases. I don't know how that financially would work,
but that was just something that I had thought about, so --
De Weerd: Thank you, Jessica. Council, any questions?
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May 4, 2010
Page 21 of 52
Rountree: No. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. We had one other person signed up on the sheet. Russ Boyle
signed up against. If you will, please, state your name and address for the record.
Boyle: My name is Russ Boyle. I'm at 1515 North Santa Rosa in Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Boyle: Good evening, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, I -- I would like to ask if
we could take a vote of who other -- is there any other people that are here for this
subject or if it is just us two. I guess I had expected many more people to be here.
De Weerd: There are a couple of others.
Boyle: So, I am here in opposition of this and I think that the conversation could be long
and I will try to be short, but, in essence, I guess that we have heard from own tonight
about the depressed economy that we are in right now. There is a lot of people out of
work. I'm really surprised that this is even open up for discussion at all. The way we
see it -- and I have talked to many -- many members of my neighborhood and, ironically,
everyone I talked to was very upset about this, but, apparently, not upset enough to
come out and support. What we are getting is a fee increase, a reduction in service and
it sounds like there are going to be people laid off and those same people are also
going to wind up probably on the unemployment rolls and to me that doesn't make any
sense in this time and this economy that we have right now. I spent seven months on
unemployment this summer myself for the first time in my life and I don't think that's a
position that we need to put these people in. Secondly, I don't think the service is going
to be improved. The service -- I have been in Meridian for 17 years and the service has
been exemplary. They will pick up anything that you put out. The people that run those
trucks are efficient, they are good, and they are fast and the prices haven't gone up in --
as far as I know of in the last 17 years and I understand now why they are going up, but
I suspect it's not because it's going to make our houses cleaner and our neighborhoods
cleaner, I suspect it's because of these new trucks they are going to purchase. I don't
see that point. I think the current system that we have right now is working just fine.
What you're going to find -- this isn't New York and we don't live in apartments. We
have trees and yards. I filled up eight garbage cans full of leaves that I could not
compost over the winter this year. That would be -- I would have to be charged
additional charge to dispose of those leaves. This isn't as cheap as the current system
or a point cheaper or whatever. Anything extra we have to pay for. Previously that's
always been picked up. And not only that, but there is only certain times of the year that
some of these things will be picked up. What's going to happen is people are going to
put this stuff out in front of their houses, they are going to pile their trash in front of their
fences and their garage doors and they are going to wait until they have a low time in
their garbage, so they can fit this stuff into one garbage can. I think it's a bad idea.
think it's ill-conceived. And I also think it's. only coming about because -- for profit and
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 22 of 52
gain. I don't think it services the community and when I read these things how he tried
to wrap this smile around -- you know, how pretty it's going to make -- cleaner and safer
for the community, I don't buy it. I think -- I think that that's just a way for us to try and
absorb this extra cost. We have had our water price has gone up, our sewer prices
have gone up, our electricity has gone up. Just one more thing. I don't know, Members
of the Council, I don't know when it's going to end. This is not a time in our economy
when we should be raising prices on these things. If it's cheaper to have our garbage
hauled away with an ox and a cart and hire a thousand more people to do it, I think
that's the kind of thing we ought to be thinking about, putting people to work, not laying
people off. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Are there additional people who would like to provide
testimony? Yes, please. If you will, please, state your name and address for the
record.
Dalrimple: Brian Dalrimple. 505 West Carlton.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Dalrimple: I was -- thank you for allowing me to speak tonight. I know originally when
this first came about they talked about a composting facility that was in the works. I --
my concern is just that that does go forward and that we have a way to deal with the
yard debris. Actually, I think the new system is going to be a lot better and (certainly --
SSC, they need to make a profit to stay in business, so I think that if the compost -- the
yard waste is addressed, most people will be pretty happy with it. That's all I have.
De Weerd: Additional testimony? Yes, sir. Good evening.
Couch: Good evening. My name is Tom Couch. 2795 North Rough Stone Way,
Meridian. 46.
Nary: Could you repeat your name again, sir?
Couch: 27 -- my name?
Nary: Your name.
Couch: Thomas Couch. Councilman Hoaglun, you hit the one that I heard. I'm right on
the edge of Tumble Creek, Turtle Creek, I don't speak for their organization, that's my
neighbors, that's who I speak to. Your comment was the number one on my list, was
about that 12 dollar fee, and we are actually -- well, speaking for myself and my
neighbors, if they are willing to do the free exchange on the trade out of the cans, that's
more than fair. So, that removed the main thing. And I'll echo the other comment about
the yard waste. I know in the brochure the most recent one -- and this is after going to
two of their public meetings at SSC last summer, coming here in October for a hearing
is part of it, because my -- my homeowners association was the same evening right
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 23 of 52
around the corner here. I have sort of followed it for my neighbors. The yard waste is
an issue and I'm just paraphrasing here, but it mentions special collection service for
yard -- you know, for yard waste and my question is what does that service entail in the
cost and Iguess -- I guess Steve at the end of this will get a chance to, you know, come
back with it, but I -- looking at the list that we had, that's the two issues. So, if that can
be addressed. And, then, realizing it may not be addressed right away, but if
somewhere down the road -- I have lived other places where the county did have the
compost facility, you could haul it up there, and it was a small charge in one place, one
place it was free. I think if it would be a small charge, I think people would go for that.
The summertime, my residents is two -- two people. We could do with a 35 gallon can.
Not in the summertime, we are going to have to have a larger can and I'd much rather
see that getting composted than running to the landfill. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Any additional testimony? Okay. Steve, would you like to
respond?
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes.
Nary: Madam Mayor, while Steve's coming up, I was noticing -- and we have looked at
this rate sheet a number of times. We looked at it at the Solid Waste Advisory
committee. We published it and reviewed it and it has one error on it and it has the
extra weight on collection day, a dollar per can. And that wasn't what was
recommended. This was one iteration. The discussion by the solid waste committee
was whether to allow can tags and the recommendation was not to allow can tags. It
required that all of them be the same cans that are issued by SSC. So, if the Council
approves this rate structure or whatever rate structure, you need to at least address that
and what's proposed, so you can certainly take it off without it being an issue and we
still have to bring it back in a resolution form for final approval.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Nary.
Sedlacek: Thank you, Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. I'll just -- if I could
address some of the questions or comments that came up. Let's talk about lost jobs.
Indeed, we will be switching from two man trucks to one man trucks. That means
reduction in work force. Our intention is to phase in the automated trucks. In July we
will have two here. We need five. So, what we find over time is we have attrition in our
work force. People leave. Just at work today one of our guys on one of the trucks is
going to be leaving for a different job, probably in a month. People, you know, join the
Navy or the armed services. We had one person who went -- is going off for another
deployment. So, you know, people are coming and going all the time. What we are
trying to avoid is getting all the trucks here at once and all of a sudden having some
massive layoff of, you know, four or five people. We are also operating in Canyon
county where we have two man trucks and we hire temporary employees on those
trucks. So, anyone who is a Sanitary Service employee, if this occurs, is going to be
Meridian City Council
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Page 24 of 52
moved over to Canyon county to work on those trucks. So, they are going to keep their
jobs. Now, someone at the end gets pushed out, though, and that's probably someone
from the temp agency. That's still unemployment and that's still bad. But we have to
remember that every one of those guys who is on the back of those trucks is going to
last about ten years and wear out and he won't have a job. So, the good news with the
automated collection is you can have a career now. So, you can work for us for 30 or
40 years or however long it is and do this job. So, that's the good side of it. As far as
people throwing their materials into dumpsters or into a ditch bank, that's a concern.
We had talked about that. And city ordinances have to address that. And it is going to
happen. We will have to watch out for that. Now, composting, that's -- you know, that's
the holy grail we have all talked about. Yard waste is the problem. It is what everyone
is concerned about. Leaves and tree trimming and all that stuff. Well, if we can get that
to a compost facility, that's great. We are working on that. I -- you know, it's not next
year. I don't know if it's two years from now. We will see. A lot of this is driven by
landfill costs and what the county is going to do. So, who knows. But all costs are
going up. You know, it's good to hear that one person thought that rates hadn't gone up
for 17 years. I mean they have gone up steadily for 17 years and that's cost of living
and fuel and disposal costs also. You know, I guess the question is how do you
equitably distribute those costs amongst the population when some people put out a lot
and some people put out a little and that's how -- that's what we are trying to get to at
this rate structure. As far as exchanging can goes -- exchanging cans go, I don't have a
problem if people want to bring them to us. I guess I was thinking more about that.
don't want this to occur every week, you know, we might have to put some limit on this
thing. I don't want someone to have a party, get a 95 gallon can one week and, then,
the next week they need a 35 and they come and exchange it, you know -- you know, I
don't know how we do the rate structure. We would be telling the billing people every
couple weeks to change it from this rate to that rate to this rate to that rate. I mean
there has got to be some control on that. But, again, if people want to bring it to us,
because they have gotten the wrong can and they want to make a switch for a long
period of time, that's fine. And let's see. Oh, the 20 dollar collection fee that was raised
for special collections. We, basically, come to the conclusion that, you know, not
everybody has a truck to bring stuff -- bring extra waste to the transfer station or bring it
to the landfill, where ever you want to take it. So, what we propose to do is have this 20
dollar collection fee where we would bring a rear load truck out and if your stuffs on
your -- on the curb, we will pick it up for 20 bucks. So, this is not something you want to
do every week, because you would probably run up quite a bill. But if you have some
very sporadic need for it, that's fine. We will bring a truck out, just call us. It's 20 dollars
for the first ten minutes and 20 bucks for every ten minutes thereafter. So, if it's all
bundled and nice in cans and we can just grab and go, wonderful. Now, in the future
we are probably going to have to put some limit on that, only because we did have a
customer who put the entire contents of their mobile home on the curb and wanted free
collection. Now, that filled up a third of our truck. You know, the disposable cost on that
alone was about a hundred dollars. So, I can't really charge people 20 bucks and, then,
pay a hundred to get rid of something. That's a bad business model, but -- so, there
might have to be some, you know, volume limits put on that in the future or something,
but I think for the most part people are pretty respectful of that and they just have some
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 25 of 52
extra stuff and we can pick it up for 20 bucks. And if people choose not to do that, that's
fine, that's their choice, too. I guess one last comment about profitability and things like
that. We do need to make a profit to keep from getting bank loans from the bank. We
carry probably four. million dollars in debt on our balance sheets continuously. Now, we
have trucks, you know, that are ten years old that we are -- that are coming off loans
and we are constantly buying new trucks. We are constantly recycling through the fleet
and this -- this program is no different. We simply decided we are not going to buy rear
loading trucks anymore, we are stitching to side loading trucks and that's what -- that's
the kind of truck we need to do this. So, I'm not sure -- you know, this, in my mind, is a
revenue neutral proposal. Now, it depends on who selects what cart size. If -- if a lot of
people opt fora 35 gallon can, we are going to go down in revenue. If a lot of people
opt for the 65, more so than already have it, our revenues might go up a little bit. You
know, I don't know. I don't know what people are going to select. But if you look at
Boise and some of the other cities in the area and assume that we have similar
populations, the rate structure will yield, basically, a revenue neutral, as far as I'm
concerned, operation. I'm sure I'm a little bit wrong there, but I'm not sure if I'm a little
high or a little low. So, anyway -- and that's the revenue we need to support the debt
loads we have to service the city. So, that's, really, all I have to say, if you have any
questions for me.
De Weerd: Council, questions?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: It's not really a question, but with any change it just seems wise to say, okay,
six months later we will have a post mortem, because it's not aone-time thing, but it's --
you certainly need to review how it's working for you and we would need to think about
how it's working for the citizens and I'm -- I'm just saying it would make sense that -- we
are talking about implementing this in July, that next December or January you come
talk to us about how it's going and whether you need to change the special collection
prices or, you know, what peripheral things need to be adjusted because it's a new
experience. So, that wouldn't surprise me at all.
Sedlacek: I think that's a great idea. You know, we will be having meetings with the
Solid Waste Advisory Committee monthly or quarterly, whatever we need to have them.
We will be reviewing those kinds of things. We would be happy to report back to you on
those issues. You know, the most difficult thing in this rate structure is -- is our disposal
fees. You know, I know how much it takes to get a truck to your house every week -- or
two trucks, you know, if it's recycling. What I don't know is, you know, what -- we have
had to make assumptions at is when we have 1.4 million dollars we spend every year
on the disposal, well, how much -- you know, is that of yours and how much is yours
and how much is yours -- you know, that -- that's -- that's the tough part. So, we have
made some assumptions to come up with a rate structure. We ought to review that.
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May 4, 2010
Page 26 of 52
Are people going to put out less waste? I don't know. They might just spread it out over
more weeks, in which case the rates won't go -- and, you know that -- that 1.4 million we
spend won't go down. at all. But maybe people will mulch their grass and not throw
away as much. I don't know. Maybe people will recycle more. And, then, we also have
the issue of what -- how much are we paying to get rid of the recycling now that we
weren't paying before. So, all those things need to come in flux and that's part of the
rate discussion I need to have with you every year I think, is how we -- how we
appropriate those costs based on service level.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Question for Steve. On the commingling recycling, I can't remember when
we switch from the bins to the commingled, I think you had said the recycling has gone
up. People -- more people are participating, but. I can't remember if you gave a number
or had a percentage or how many more people or --
Sedlacek: The weights have gone up 50 percent. The amount of recycling is up 50
percent. Now, my anticipation is when we implement the next phase, which is the
automated collection of waste, people are going to realize, well, I really need to recycle.
You know, we probably have 75 -- 65 and 70 percent of the homes with a recycling cart.
Well, 30 percent don't have one. Well, I think those -- when that 30 percent calls in and
wants one, that's when you're going to see a lot of change also. It's just going to go up
and up.
Hoaglun: Okay. Follow-up, Madam Mayor. Steve, I remember last year when we were
at our budget session we didn't have -- we knew the tipping rates out at the landfill were
going up, we just didn't know how much last year. Do you have any idea what the
increase is going to be this year yet, any early indications? I know it's kind of like
guessing tax revenue, just -- who knows, but it's probably likely going up again, the
costs that you pay, that we pay, we all pay out there at the Ada County Landfill.
Sedlacek: They are going up and the interesting thing is that the county has decided to
switch systems, they are not going to bill us by the cubic yard anymore, they are putting
scales in and they are going to do it by the ton. Well, what's happened -- you know, the
costs per ton for residential waste is the lowest of all the different rate structures the
county has, so when they switch to tonnage, that's the one that's going to go up the
most. I can't even guess what the rate will be. I mean it's -- you know, that's just like
picking lottery numbers, you know, I have no idea.
Hoaglun: Thank you.
De Weerd: Well, I can say, Steve, the letters that I get all -- I think hands down are all
about yard waste and I know that you have been working with our Public Works
Department to try and find a composting program that actually is not so price prohibitive,
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 27 of 52
we can actually add that as one of the opportunities and that like you mentioned, it's not
going to happen within the next year. Can you look at perhaps -- I know that you have a
fall collection where you do allow the yard waste. Is there a spring collection that you
can also offer? And, you know, I guess we had this discussion when the -- the
committee made its recommendation and, you know, I have a third of an acre and I
have plenty of yard waste and we are figuring out that now that we recycle I -- I don't fill
my cart like I have in the past and I put my yard waste in my can. But there is the fall
with the leaves and, then, there is the spring cleanup as well. And people know there
are at least those two times of the year that they can put their yard waste out there and
the rest of it ration into their larger can over -- over time. Is that another option? And I
know we keep asking, but that is, hands down, the most frequently comment passed
along that I hear.
Sedlacek: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, absolutely. Yard waste is -- the
problem is yard waste, yard waste, yard waste. We can certainly look at the spring
collection. I guess I'm not sure when you do it. You know, one of the problems we
have with fall -- fall leaf collection is people don't like the period that it's in. It's too early,
it's too late. You know, it's hard to get it right.
De Weerd: And we talked about that at the town hall meeting.
Sedlacek: Now -- we have talked about that and we need to make that a larger period
and that's fine. It still don't cover everybody. In the spring we could do a week of
unlimited collection, but a week is only a week. I mean, you know -- then, you could do
-- well, you could do two weeks, four weeks -- I mean it gets to the point where you're
kind of back to the system you had a little bit. I mean, look, (will -- I would be happy to
discuss it with you and the Solid Waste Committee and see if we can come up with
something. It is -- it's the issue. You're right. Now, I guess my concern would be, you
know, we are going to set a week to do this in the spring and it could be a really cold -- it
will be a really cold week and people won't -- haven't done their yard work and missed it
or something. I mean it's a weather driven issue. It's hard to set that week, I guess, is
what I'm trying to say.
De Weerd: It probably is, but if it's published people know.
Sedlacek: Right. That's true.
De Weerd: And --
Sedlacek: But, again, you know, this -- you're the Mayor and the Council and if you'd
like to see that, then, we could make that happen.
De Weerd: Again, I guess it's just responding to the comments that we have received
and I think your comments in particular about the fall collection was well received by the
people that attended the town hall meeting and it seemed they appreciated the
compromise and I guess there is acknowledgment that there is not unlimited landfill
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 28 of 52
space and that the more -- the less we recycle, the more rapidly the landfill is going to
fill up and the more expensive the rates become. So, I think that message was very
well conveyed to the folks that did attend, it just hasn't answered this composting.
Sedlacek: That's going to be a very tough nut to crack, Madam Mayor, and, you know,
if you did want to do a collection week in the spring, a spring clean up week, we have
time to get that organized. I mean this will kick off in July, so we will have until -- you
know, we will have nine months to look at when to do that and how it would be done.
And we would be happy to talk about that with you.
De Weerd: Anything further from City Council?
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: Along the lines of your discussion, I think Allied Waste has just recently
advertised a spring clean up in their service areas, so that was something new that they
have added to their services. We were not aware of that through any of our previous
discussions, but it was on some PSAs late night TV.
Sedlacek: It may be that the mayor of Boise is getting the same a-mails that you are.
believe the way they are doing that -- this is something new that's come out. Everyone
still has to use their cart, because we are not going to switch trucks to pick up
everyone's waste. You would be obligated to fill up your cart first and, then, you would
have to, you know, have the weight limits apply to the cans and you put out -- you have
to put out your own cans or bags or something. So, on a stop where there was more
than just the cart, we would dump the cart and, then, we would have to load the cart
with the extra and, then, dump it again, two or three times, whatever. And so that week
would be tedious for us, but it can be done. It's not -- it's not impossible.
De Weerd: If there is no further questions, I thank you for being here.
Sedlacek: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. Council? If you have something additional, yes, please, come
forward.
Boyle: Do I need to state my name again?
De Weerd: Yes, please.
Boyle: Russ Boyle. 1550 North Santa Rosa in Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
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May 4, 2010
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Boyle: I guess we don't want to lose sight -- I don't think this is just about waste, I think
this. is a -- there is a greater full here of being the additional cost and the people that will
be unemployed. I don't accept the idea that -- that there aren't always people looking
for work and we are just reducing -- I see this all over. I worked at Jabil when they sent
their. job to China. I now work at HP and we are sending our jobs to India. I see it.
Everywhere. Our community -- we have got to stop this. We have got to stop this
mentality of making profit by laying people off and so I guess that really concerns me
and that is the greater concern of the public. The waste is an issue, but the greater
concern is that we are reducing services, raising our costs, and we are cutting jobs.
You know, there aren't a lot of good jobs out there. I don't know what these jobs pay,
but there aren't a lot of good jobs out there and they are hard to find. We got a lot of
people unemployed. I don't think there should be a discussion -- I would like to ask the
gentleman -- you know, he's talked about this loan that he has. How much of that is
going to go against these new trucks and how much more expensive are these new
trucks than the current trucks that we -- that he offers? And, you know, everyone else
has had to cut expenses. Do they make those trucks last a little bit longer? It's one
thing if he's working for private enterprise, but he's not, he's being paid by the taxpayers
here in Meridian. He has an obligation to cut his expenses, not make profit.
understand the fact that he needs to stay in business, but if he's that worried about
profit, he should take this to a private enterprise and not be signing the contract with the
city and I have heard words -- I can't substantial them -- that they have a 17 year
contract. I would like to ask what type of competition do we have? There is a flyer that
got sent out said that we are mandated to this service. I get real concerned when a
government agency mandates something. I would like to propose we have an
alternative service. We have a choice. Bring in some competitive competition into this
deal and, then, see what they can do with rates. Everyone else has to deal with
competition. Why would they have exclusivity on this? I don't understand that. Thank
you.
De Weerd: You know, I do understand your -- your comments, but it is a private
business that we contract with, and so they have to -- they are not a nonprofit. We all
admit they are for profit. And the length of the contracts are such that they make a long
term investment in our community when they become contractor for the city and
because of that, the prices are more competitive and they are less. If we did a year to
year I think that you would see an increase that would definitely not be to your liking,
because what you're doing is you're putting in risk and they'd have to charge you for
that risk and that's not something that municipalities can pass on to their rate payers.
That risk we will not take, because it's more expensive to the end user, and that is why
on these kind of contracts you do have the longer term, because of the cost and the
investment in the capital end to provide those services and you will see that across the
state. That's not anything that's unique to our city. I would also invite you to look at the
other rates that other communities are spending. We all are impacted by the landfill
charges that the county imposes and that is a ripple effect like you have in any other
utilities, so -- and, unfortunately, as you see requirements regulatory environmental
increase, those all have costs as well and it's unfortunate and -- but those decisions are
not being made at the local level, they are being made primarily at the federal level and
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 30 of 52
they are being passed down and it does have a ripple effect. We are just as frustrated
as you are, because we are rate payers as well.
Boyle: I agree with everything that you have said and I wouldn't suggest that we would
renew a contract every year, but every five years, you know, or make sure that when
those contracts are open that there is viable opportunities for other people to participate.
would also add that any business has long-term investments. It doesn't matter who
they are and at any given day they can lose business that would cause a loss against
those investments that they have made. If I could just say one more thing. I see the
limit on the -- on the 95 gallon can is 330 pounds. To put that in perspective, a gallon of
water weighs approximately seven pounds. If you were to fill that can with water that
would be approximately 950 pounds. I'm not real sure what they are expecting us to put
in this 95 gallon can that will only weigh 330 pounds. It certainly won't be dirt. It
wouldn't be rocks. It wouldn't be sod. It wouldn't be chopped up tree trunks. So, I'm
very concerned about this weight limit. I think it needs to be double this weight and if
their trucks can't accommodate that, then, I would see that as a concern. Thank you.
De Weerd: Thank you. Mr. Sedlacek, do you wish to have any final comment? And
before I ask you to comment, is there any further testimony? Okay. Mr. Sedlacek.
Sedlacek: Just -- I'm not sure exactly what point to talk about there, but as far as the
price of the trucks goes, the trucks are a quarter of a million dollars apiece. So, you
know, a standard garbage truck, if you want to call it that, the rear loading trucks that we
buy or have bought in the past are about 140. So, they are significantly more, there is
more moving parts on the new ones that allow the one man operation. So, we are -- I
will be frank and just tell you we are exchanging human labor for mechanical labor and
some people -- that's kind of the future. You know, lifting -- lifting weight over and over
and over is hard on the human body and so that's part of this. We are trying to
eliminate or reduce that and will people lose their jobs? Yes. Some will. Should we
hire 500 ox carts to do this? I can do that, if that's what you want. I don't have a pen for
all the oxen, but we can -- we can figure that out. But, you know, is that the right way to
go? Again, that's up to the Council.
De Weerd: Steve, I guess what I heard you say is your employees -- you're trying to
retain them and the ones that you lose will be more to attrition and temporary labor that
you hire out, so they are not typically your full-time employees.
Sedlacek: That's correct. Currently we have 53 employees, full-time employees, and
after this conversion we are probably going to have about 48. So, we are going to lose
five people, probably. But we are going to lose those -- we are going to lose those five,
because they are going to leave and go do something else anyway, but the point I think
was that, well, that's still five jobs. That's correct. That's absolutely correct. There is no
doubt about that.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 31 of 52
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor. And, Steve, Ithink -- didn't you mention before that the
camera -- the guys throw the trash in the back, that that -- that job life was, what, five to
ten years? I can't remember what you had said previously.
Sedlacek: It's a five to ten year job. You know, we hire people that are 22, 23, and,
then, when they get to their early 30s they have to go find another job, because they are
worn out. Their shoulders are shot. Their knees. They are just done, so they can't do
it. So, it's not a career. You. know, this is not a long term way to get ahead, working on
the back of one of our garbage trucks. Now, the guys know the job when they apply for
work, they know what they are getting in for. It's not a surprise. So, what we would like
to do is simply have jobs that are -- that someone can do for a long, long time to support
their family. So, it's a trade off, so -- it's fewer jobs, but better jobs, I guess. I don't
know if that is the right trade off, but that is -- that is the deal here. That's all I really
have.
De Weerd: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Council?
Rountree: Madam Mayor, I move that we close the public hearing on Item 10-A.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing on 10-A. All those
in favor say aye. All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rountree: Just acomment -- or discussion, Madam Mayor. The decision on the
service has already been made. That was made a number of weeks or months ago.
Tonight's hearing is strictly about the rate structure that will be utilized to go in effect
with the change in operation. So, we have struggled with the comments we have heard
tonight for over a year and I think we are -- we have moved through those. We have
had multiple public meetings. We have had several public hearings. We have had what
thought some pretty good dialogue. We have had the yard waste being folks' biggest
issue and that's a big issue is folks that think that what we are proposing is a grand idea
and for folks who think this is not a grand idea. My recollection is we have had a
number of people, though, recognize that -- the encouragement of recycling is --
apparently it has encouraged recycling, because we have increased the volume by 50
percent over what we have been doing and that's just those folks who have moved
forward with getting their free totter and getting their free recycle service in place. In my
own instance it's probably reduced the volume of trash that goes in my green totter at
this point by 60 plus percent, from filling it up once a week to maybe two and at the
most three 22 gallon -- or 22 quart trash sacks. So, it's empty most of the time. But,
again, those comments don't necessarily relate to what this hearing is about. This
hearing is about the rate structure. I believe that two things make the rate structure
different than what you're paying now is that you do have an option now not to have a
totter. You will not have an option in the future to have totter. You can pick a totter size
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to accommodate your needs. If the 35 does your needs, you will be paying less than
you pay now. If a 65 accommodates your needs, you will be paying slightly more than
you do now. If you need a 65 -- or a 95 gallon, you will be paying more than you pay
now, primarily because of the cost of having a totter available. Again, it's an individual
choice of how much you're going to pay, how much you're going to recycle, how
innovative people get with handling waste and I can tell you we get pretty innovative.
Knowing it was coming I have made a lot of changes. Having said that, that's my two
bits. I don't know what everybody else wants to say about the rate structure.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I would add that people do have an ability to affect their rate by how much
they recycle and as with others, I have discovered that the more that I can put into the
commingled recycle, as with Councilman Rountree, I have put out a very small bag of
actual trash every week and I think we need to make the connection to people that --
that recycling does make a difference to how much you need to put in trash. What gets
picked up as trash does cost to get rid of. It's not only the transportation charges, but
the landfill charges and that's a big part of the fee is what it costs to get rid of what
people put out every week. I appreciate the fact that we have had a Solid Waste
Advisory Committee looking at this. They have struggled with prices and we have
struggled with them a little bit over the past year or so. I believe we got some good
advice from the Solid Waste Advisory Committee. I hope they will continue and give us
a thorough review of this about six months after it's been put into effect, but I think we
have -- for something that's going to be a little bit new, I think we have hit on a fair and
equitable proposal.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Just a comment. When we first started this process I was concerned from the
standpoint of cost. I did not want to see some of our folks in this community hit with
higher costs. You know, I look at my neighbors across the street, the Johnsons, a
senior citizen couple, and, you know, my kids, before they went off to college, I'm
putting out my three cans aweek, Ijust -- I didn't have a totter, I just drug the cans out
and made my kids drag the cans out and the Johnsons were putting their little bag out
and they are pretty frugal, they don't do a whole lot and they are paying the same rate
as I was and the one thing I did not want to see was them to have to increase what they
paid and, in fact, under this system what pleased me about this, as we moved forward
and worked on this, was the fact that they can pay less than they are paying now and,
to me, that's -- that's protecting our most vulnerable members of this community and --
and the more I put out, the more I will pay, and that I think is something we need to
move for -- move forward to. I think Steve has said in the past what other commodity
that you use more of that you don't have to pay for? It's not our water. It's not our
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electricity. It's not our sewer. This -- this is based on a fairness of what you utilize --
how much trash you put out is what you're going to pay. But I think we have structured
a system through the process in getting feedback and going -- having the information of
our services -- a hearing that Steve held, to a-mail, to the town halls, to the other
meetings we have had, that we have been able to refine this over a period of time that I
think it comes into where -- to where it's acceptable and I think very fair and something
that people can actually reduce their trash rates if they recycle and -- and do that. It
was interesting, the job issue. I read an interesting story just today. It was fascinating
to read that when the railroad started to develop in this country the canal companies
and the barge -- and the people around the barges came to Congress and they said you
have got to do something to protect our jobs, because you're going to lay off the
harness makers, the horse-shoers, the barge people, the people who have had to raise
the bridges and they laid off the economy arguments of why the railroad should not be
allowed to move forward in this country, because of the economic loss of jobs by -- by
these barges and all the canal systems in our country and from an economic
perspective, that's -- oh, you're right, they were going to lay off tens of thousands of
people, that the railroads took away business and that's -- and they were right, but that
was technology and that was advancement and that's what's happening here. There
are going to be some changes and there are going to be some shifts and that's
something that occurs every day in our -- in our history of this country, is we are always
looking for more efficiencies and a way to keep costs down and in the long run that's
good, because if we are recycling, we are keeping costs down, we are extending the
landfill life, that is keeping our costs down for each one of us, whether it's a power,
whether it's a sewer plant, whether it's a landfill, if we don't have to build another one,
we are going to keep our rates as low as possible for as long as possible, because
those things are very, very expensive and I think that's -- that's an important component
to remember in this whole thing. Thanks.
De Weerd: Anything further from Council?
Bird: I have nothing,
De Weerd: Okay.
Rountree: Madam Mayor, question for Mr. Nary. Is this an ordinance or resolution or
both?
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, Council Member Rountree, this -- this
particular portion would be a resolution. We would -- if Council approves the rates, we
would bring a resolution back establishing those rates. You will, then, like I said, by the
end of this month have the ordinance in front of you. One of the things that was brought
up tonight -- we will have a discussion with Mr. Sedlacek about the voluntary returns.
We have had that discussion at the Solid Waste Committee, on how many returns --
how often can we do this. It is an administrative cost to continually change the rate
that's charged to individual households. So, we have had a discussion previously at
Solid Waste on whether or not that's a once a year thing or is it twice a year you can do
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that. So, we didn't want people just continuously having -- you know, whether they were
bringing it themselves or having Solid Waste -- or I mean SSC bring it out, it's still a cost
and it's an administrative cost, as well as their personnel costs. But at the end of this
month you will see an ordinance draft for your review with the changes. Again, one of
the things that has to change, obviously, is the collection, but there is other particular
specifics that need to change in the ordinance. The weight limits and those kind of
things, some of that has to change. So, that will be in ordinance form. This will just be
a resolution.
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Yes, ma'am.
De Weerd: I guess we also talked about the spring clean up and I know that's nine
months away and we have got that issue for this year, but I do think if the Solid Waste
Committee can, please, bring that up, so that we can put it on an annual calendar and
make sure that it is noted it's part of the rate system.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council, we can -- we don't have a current
meeting scheduled. We can get a meeting scheduled. We kind of wanted to wait until
the transition happened and, then, have a meeting, we will add that to the agenda. One
of the reasons that I know that the Council all knows this, but maybe the public doesn't
-- part of the reason that he's able to offer that leaf recycling is because the landfill will
take that at no cost either. So, there is no cost, other than the pick up for that. They
don't offer that in the spring, so we will have to, obviously, visit with Mr. Sedlacek about
the cost and can they absorb that cost or is there going to be some way to charge for it
if it's necessary. But all of that would come back in front of you for an approval either
way. So, we will add this in the agenda for discussion and look at the numbers and the
cost of doing those things.
De Weerd: Mr. Nary, I guess I would also like to suggest that the Solid Waste
Committee looks at it -- we have established quite a database of a-mail and as the
landfill looks at increasing their rates we need to do a better job at getting that
information out, so the public knows there is maybe aless -- a less obvious layer of cost
influences to that and we need to get that out, so they have a voice at the county level
as those rate increases are considered.
Nary: Absolutely.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: That's an excellent point. Having said that, I would move that we approve
the proposed rate structure as presented this evening for Sanitary Services and we
instruct staff to prepare a resolution to that effect.
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Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Do I have any discussion?
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: Deleting that one line from the proposal that there is no one dollar per can
extra waste on collection day.
Rountree: I think that's -- that's a given, given our previous decision, but yes.
De Weerd: Second agrees?
Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: Okay. Any further discussion? Madam Clerk, will you, please, call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 11: Department Reports.
A. Resolution No. 10-722: A Resolution of the Mayor and City
Council of the City of Meridian Re-Appointing Steve Turney to
Seat 1, Walter Lindgren to Seat 2, Frank Thomason to Seat 3,
and Tom Hammond to Seat 4 of the Meridian Historic
Preservation Commission
De Weerd: Okay. Item 11 under Department Reports we have Resolution 10-722.
This resolution is to reappoint three of our commissioners on the historic preservation
commission. These are, again, reappointments to members currently serving whose
seats have expired. I would ask Council if you have any questions.
Bird: I have none.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we approve Resolution 10-722.
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Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second to approve the resolution. If there is no
discussion, Madam Clerk, will you call roll.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes. Motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
B. Public Works Department: Verbal Request from Ron Carroll,
at 1822 E. Bluetick Street, to Connect a Private Well to his
House as an Alternative Water Source
De Weerd: Item 11-B is our Public Works Department. I'll turn this over to Mr. Radek.
Radek: Madam Mayor, Council Members, thank you. This item is a request from Ron
Carroll to connect a private well to his house as an alternative water source. We have
in our audience Rob Whitney from the Idaho Department of Water Resources and
Dennis from our building services plumbing inspection team and also Mr. Carroll and we
are recommending denial of this request, but to start the item we would recommend that
we give Mr. Carroll an opportunity to speak.
De Weerd: Thank you, Mr. Carroll. Good evening. Thank you joining us. Please state
your name and address for the record.
Carroll: My name is Ron Carroll and my address 1822 East Blue Tick Street, Meridian.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Carroll: Madam Mayor and Members of the Council. My purpose of my request is that
have been wanting to -- or I am in the process of making some refinements or
improvements on my property that will take care of my wife and myself and my family in
potential hard times or adverse situations that could potentially come and included with
those -- well, as you know when you're trying to survive in a survival mode, you need
oxygen, water, shelter and food and I am currently addressing the issue of water and
so, you know, I'm currently connected to the City of Meridian's water and I want to
continue to be connected with the City of Meridian water, because I think alternatives
are good. But what happens if something -- if the City of Meridian were unable to
provide me with water, I wouldn't be able to survive for very long without water and so I
have a well and I understand that connecting a well system and the city system is
problematic, so I'm not asking for that as far as the water system goes. I'm asking for
my well water to be able to be in a separate pipe, separate system from my city water,
to have a sink in my house that can have the water from my well coming to it. My well is
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also going to be used for my sprinkler system for a backup for that also. And my
garden. But -- and the city is fine. My understanding. is that it's fine for me to have my
well and to have the water outside of my house. But to bring it inside of my house is an
issue and the issue, as I see it, is -- at least as I understand it, is that the problem is in
charging me for the water that goes into the sewer and Idon't -- I am not asking for
anything for free. I'm happy to pay for the service that the city would provide for me to
let my -- a little bit of my well water that comes in my sink to go down to the sewer. The
problem is they don't have a rate structure or a way of charging me for that and what I
would propose or request is that you pass a -- I don't know what you call them --
resolution or an ordinance or whatever it needs to be to just set a rate and say, okay,
we are going to charge you this much for a hookup and we are going to charge you this
much monthly rate to let your water from your well that goes in your sink to -- they will
charge me so much per month. My current full monthly bill for the sewer, at least for the
April bill that I just received a few weeks ago, my sewer charge was 28.28 -- $28.28.
And I am not financially compromised and I'm not asking for anything for free. I'm
willing to pay a reasonable set rate for my privilege to have myself being protected, so
that I can have water if there was a time of need. And to my -- my request, I read into
the mission statement of the City of Meridian, the mission statement says that it's an
innovative planning team that advances the quality, lifestyle, and economy envisioned
by a Comprehensive Plan. So, this is -- for my quality of my lifestyle that I'm wanting to
sustain myself with. Also, with the proclamation that you read earlier this evening with
regard to the Building Safety Month, you said that you -- it was for safe, energy efficient,
and sustainability. And I want my home to be a safe, sustainable place for my wife
Beatrice and I to survive if there were to be adverse situations that -- that potentially
could come our way and so I am respectfully submitting my request that you put into
place some kind of billing structure that I can have the service that I'm requesting.
De Weerd: Thank you. Council, do you have any questions?
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Mr. Carroll, what -- what do you foresee as a problem that we could have within
the city water system that -- that you wouldn't have in your private well? Because if we
lose electricity, we I think have got backup generators on quite a few of ours. If you lose
-- if we lose electricity, you lose yours, unless you have got abackup --
Carroll: Solar power is available.
Bird: --abackup power source. So, I really -- I can't -- I guess I don't understand why
you -- why you're thinking your safety is not there with our water, that you have to have
a backup source.
Carroll: Can I respond?
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De Weerd: Yes, please.
Carroll: And Councilman Rountree or -- or Rountree --
Bird: Bird.
Carroll: What?
Rountree: He's Bird.
Bird: Bird.
Carroll: Oh, you're Keith Bird. Excuse me. I got my signs mixed up. That helps a little.
I'm not worried about the safety of the city water. And as far as energy to pump my
well, I'm have a solar panel that can pump the well, even if there is no electricity. But
what would happen if some terrorist or whatever wanted to contaminate your well
process or what happens if there was a -- some sort of breakdown of the structure
within the system that you weren't able to provide it? I don't know what that might be,
but potentially something could happen in that regard. I just want to be able to be self-
sufficient, take care of myself in case there was that problem. You know, some people
have desire to have food storage in their homes to last for six months to a year. Well,
there is Albertsons and there is Winco, well, why -- what's the problem, you know, and if
they can't -- so, anyway, you know, people just want to be prepared for tragedy or
adverse situation and water is, actually, more precious than food when it comes to an
adverse survival mode.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Hoaglun.
Hoaglun: Question. Mr. Carroll, I was kind of curious -- I'm in a situation where I have a
well on my property, because we used to be a farm and that was where we got our
drinking water from on the ranch many years ago and we connected to city services --
that had to have been -- that had to be completely severed, because of --
Carroll: Right.
Hoaglun: -- contamination. But I still have that well and I still can access it and that sort
of thing and so I'm of the mind set that, well, if there ever were -- in the unlikely event of
a disaster -- natural disaster or something and I don't have water, I have access to
water, but I'm curious why do you want to connect it to your house, because I'm in a
situation where if I have the emergency I have got access to water -- as you say, that's
a necessary commodity, but I don't feel the need to connect it to my house, because I --
I'm covered. Yeah, it might be more work to move things around with a hose or pail and
that sort of thing, but why do you want to connect it to your house? I mean you got the
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May 4, 2010
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access, you have got the water, you can provide if there is an emergency, what's the
need to connect to the house?
Carroll: You just mentioned that, yes, it would be a lot more difficult to get ahose --
hose it through or to carry buckets or whatever and it's really for convenience of having
-- having -- having the water available that I can drink. And it's not like I'm asking this
for free. You know, I'm willing to have you just set a rate and I pay the fee. I mean it's
not really that I'm requesting something that's going to be a burden or a problem. It
seems to me that it's a reasonable request that I'm willing to pay for.
De Weerd: Anything further? Any other questions? Thank you.
Barry: Madam Mayor and Members of the Council, we appreciate Mr. Carroll's request
and we have evaluated that on a staff level and I have also been consulted, we have
consulted the legal department and other staff inside the city as well. And we
appreciate his desire to be self sufficient and we think that's a very interesting and
certainly admirable position to be in. However, his proposal does not meet our
requirements under city code. Specifically it's in violation of UDC 11-3A-21 C, which
says that all developments shall be connected to the City of Meridian water and sewer
systems unless otherwise approved by the city engineer and, more importantly, it's in
violation of City Code Section 9-4 -- or, excuse me, 9-1-4, which prohibits connection of
private water systems to buildings where city water is available. When we evaluated
this we offered to Mr. Carroll an alternative, which was to -- well, first of all, I should go
on the record and say that contrary to his statements the city is not happy with having a
separate private water well being drilled on parcels around the city where city water is
available. We see that as a potentially compromising water quality situation and the
parcel that we are dealing with here you should know is approximately one-fifth of an
acre and have access to city water, access to pressurized irrigation with a backup
source through the HOA, connection to city water for shoulder seasons and others. So,
we don't -- we don't advise or support private homeowners in drilling their own drinking
water wells, because of the water quality risk and certainly the connection of it to the
house is very disconcerting because of the violations that would create with regard to
existing city code. In addition, we believe that this would -- if the Council should
approve it, set a precedent which would allow for these kinds of things potentially to
occur more frequently in the future, although it is pretty -- as Mr. Carroll I'm sure can
attest, a costly endeavor and as it relates to being able to figure out a rate for his usage
-- that's actually pretty straight forward for us and we just apply our -- just put a meter on
his system and apply that meter to usage within the house. But that's not our big
concern. Our big concern is-that this request violates city code and for the other
reasons I have mentioned. Now, the alternative that we proposed to him was that
because the well is already drilled, which we would prefer it not to have been drilled, but
we have no jurisdiction in that regard, he's wanting to use it for the sort -- the variety of
reasons he said and one of the ways that we thought that we could at least be more
amenable to his safety and security issues associated with in bad times is for him to just
put a yard spigot out and keep it separate from the building, which is something we can
do under code, is allow him to put yard spigot and, then, just as Mr. Hoaglun has
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May 4, 2010
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mentioned, he could ferry water in buckets or a hose or something in time of emergency
or crisis or whatnot, but that was not acceptable to Mr. Carroll and he wanted to have an
audience with the City Council, which is why we are here this evening. Mr. Radek is our
assistant city engineer. If I have missed anything or you have anything else to add.
Radek: I guess I would just add, Madam Mayor and Council Members, is that the main
purpose of the code points that Mr. Barry cited is to avoid the cross-contamination
issues, which is our main concern, that although, you know, presumably we trust Mr.
Carroll not to make across-connection, we establish a precedent and if Mr. Carroll is
the only one that's ever going to live at that house, probably not, in the opinion of most
of the Public Works staff and, you know, particularly the water superintendent that a
cross-connection would happen and any cross-connection is -- is an opportunity for
contamination of the system. So, with that I would guess I would remind you that we
have Dennis from plumbing if you -- if the Council wishes to ask any questions in that
regard and Rob from the Idaho Department of Water Resources, who is the agency that
permits the construction of wells.
Bird: Madam Mayor --
Rountree: Hear from water resources.
Zaremba: I would be curious to hear how somebody acquires the water right. Anybody
can poke a hole in the ground, but do they have the right to pull water.
Radek: Mr. Whitney has graciously sat through the whole Council meeting and it's
appropriate that he gets his chance to talk now, so --
De Weerd: Thank you for joining us. If you will state your name.
Whitney: My name is Rob Whitney. I work for the Idaho Department of Water
Resources. I'm housed at 2735 Airport Way in Boise.
De Weerd: Thank you.
Whitney: Madam Mayor and Members of the Council, thank you for inviting me. I
guess I would entertain questions from you regarding our regulations and how an
individual may install a private well.
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, I would like to know how -- how does that process work? I
was under the impression that to do that was extremely difficult, but -- in terms of getting
permits and approvals and the water rights issues and all these types of things. Can you
kind of walk --
Whitney: Sure.
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May 4, 2010
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Hoaglun: -- quickly walk me through that? It doesn't have to be long and involved, but
kind of a brief thumbnail sketch of how that's done and why?
De Weerd: You know, in particular where there is a municipal system.
Whitney: Okay. Councilman Hoaglun, Madam Mayor, and Councilmen. Idaho water
law exempts specifically in statute domestic uses from mandatory water right
requirements. Domestic use is defined in state law as water for homes, organization
camps, public campgrounds, livestock or any purposes connected with those features.
In this case we will talk about a residential home. The permitting process -- so, to
establish an exempt water right that is through beneficial use of the water. So, in order
to establish that right you have to drill the well -- that exemption doesn't apply to a
surface water source, only to a groundwater source or a well. So, establishment of that
right is predicated upon installing a well and use of that water. Our permitting process
for construction of wells is to obtain a drilling permit for domestic use from the
Department of Water Resources. In this particular case our process to permit a single
family residential well is what we have termed a start card, so we require a fee, that
statutory fee is 75 dollars for the permit, and the well driller can submit this start card to
the department prior to constructing the well. So, as long as we have that start card in
they are authorized to drill that well within the limitations and conditions of that particular
permit. So, while the approval is somewhat automatic, there still is baggage that comes
with that approval. I guess I can leave for the record some of those -- some of those
conditions, but mainly those are to comply with any local, city government, county
government requirement or ordinance that that is a condition of approval of a drilling
permit or start card in this particular case.
Hoaglun: So, to clarify -- in my mind, to clarify, Madam Mayor, a well permit is given,
even though they are on city water, because it's for domestic use that permit is -- will
likely be give, there is no reason to deny.
Whitney: That's correct.
Hoaglun: Okay.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor. Except that he would be in violation of his permit if he
hooked it up to his house, because the city ordinance says he can't do that. And the
permit says he has to comply with city ordinances. Convoluted, but -- right?
Whitney: And, then, we talk about how to -- you know, the enforcement of a violation of
the condition of the permit. If we have an official determination by some entity that says
they violated this condition, we may be able to proceed with some type of joint
enforcement with that agency.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
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May 4, 2010
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Rountree: The obvious question that's not been asked is has a permit been requested
and given for this particular --
Whitney: It has. I do have a copy of that start card here. I did check that out after
receiving the phone call from the staff and we have a drilling permit or a start card that
was -- was filed. The well was drilled by a licensed well driller and the proper well
drillers report was submitted to the department.
De Weerd: I guess I have a longer term concern here, is, you know, this hasn't
happened frequently. I think the concern is that it could and this -- it might set a
precedent, but my concern is domestic wells are unregulated in terms of the
extraordinary requirement that municipalities have in protecting the casing and anything
reaching into the aquifer, it's been a discussion long term with Department of Water
Resources domestic wells and the contamination potential that they have, because they
don't have the same requirements of protecting that water source and keeping
contamination out of the fissions and fissures or I don't know what all those words are,
technical, but we know it moves through the aquifer and can contaminate city sources. I
mean your concern, Mr. Carroll, is you might have a contaminated water city source, but
all of these little domestic wells can add to that contamination and so I'm confused of
why department of resources -- water resources is -- is allowing these drillings in areas
that have a source of water with the potential hazards that they cause long term. Did
state that with any sense to it at all?
Whitney: Madam Mayor, you did fine.
De Weerd: Thank you. That is not debatable.
Whitney: I understand these scenarios very much myself having been involved with
well construction for many, many years and I have worked closely with a consultant that
designed wells for cities, Meridian in particular. I'm very aware of well construction
standards. I'm might add that we are a giant leap closer to having standardized the
construction of domestic wells with respect to the construction of municipal wells.
Municipal wells may have other requirement for construction and design of the water
system as they are regulated as a public water system through the DEQ. There is
testing requirements. However, we adopted new well construction standards the last
legislative session. So, about a year ago. And from my involvement for 15 years in that
process and it finally came about, our standard of well construction for domestic wells is
much higher than it has been.
De Weerd: But not quite there.
Whitney: We have had these discussions about should the state allow construction of
an exempt domestic well or, for that matter, any other well in an area that is serviced by
a community or municipal supply. We have heard arguments on every side of that
fence from the public who says they have a right to a domestic well, according to their
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interpretation of the Idaho constitution. You know, these discussions have gone on with
our legal counsel and, of course, I'm the messenger and we continue to freely issue
permits for domestic wells, it's one thing that, you know, we do have concerns about
setbacks from sewer lines and sources of contamination and want to keep an eye on
how these wells are constructed, make sure they are constructed to the highest
standard we can hold them to. But our -- from what I know, our legal counsel doesn't
feel that we can not approve a permit. Now, there -- there are -- any action that the
department takes to approve or deny something is subject to due process. So, there is
an objection period to object to any -- in other words, a drilling permit may be approved,
but it has to be treated as preliminary for I think 14 days and so there are processes by
which some approval could be objected to. But in the event that a city or a county
proposed an ordinance in certain areas that they prohibited the installation of any type
of well -- and I have seen this done in other counties. Gem County, for example, has
restrictions on drilling wells within the city limits. They allow a shallow well in the city
limits for use in a yard. Now, when I issue the drilling permit I don't ask those questions,
because it's an exempt domestic well. But if they drill it in the city and the city has an
ordinance against it, then, they may be required to plug that well. So, we haven't -- the
department hasn't got in the way of the process by which somebody can obtain a drilling
permit to install an exempt domestic well.
De Weerd: But that citizen may not be familiar with the local ordinances and the
department is not suggesting that they drill their wall and, then, the city comes and says
you have to plug it, that doesn't seem -- we know who the bad guy is going to be.
Whitney: It's not us.
De Weerd: Probably not. Probably not.
Whitney: Perhaps there was some strategy there, too. I --
De Weerd: Oh. Okay.
Whitney: Well, yeah, I do understand this. I think the department's position at this
point, we haven't concluded that there are any areas at this point where we can actually
or do deny a drilling permit for an exempt well. We try to condition those permits to
cover as much -- you know, our main objective as a department in this particular arena
of well construction is to protect the groundwater from waste and contamination. We
have been asked to protect -- to deny a domestic drilling permit based on fiscal issues
that may result from people disconnecting from a community supply, not necessarily of
a municipal place such as yours, but say a smaller subdivision that had 30 residences
on a well and we have seen this time and time again where the people that are hooked
to the well don't get the service that they think they are paying for, want, need. They
begin to drill their own wells and, then, the financial resources to support that system
diminish to the point they can't keep it up, then, they are in trouble with DEQ, because
the system fails and while we understand those things, our scope is limited to water
rights and protection of the groundwater through regulation of well construction. So, I
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 44 of 52
guess you're seeing a problem with that system to some extent or potential and there
may be room to address those issues down the road, but I think where we are at right
now to me, as far as, you know, the construction of this particular well -- and I -- I guess
when I agreed to come and talk I didn't know that it would be so specific to this exact
project, but, you know, everything was done correctly as according to what we know at
this point. Now --
De Weerd: I guess my question is not necessarily -- and, I'm sorry, Mr. Carroll, if I go
off on a side bar, but my question here is in relation to your broader scope in protecting
the groundwater. If you're poking a lot of holes in it is that really protecting it, if there is -
- if there is the deep water wells that are better for the system, instead of a bunch of
holes. I guess I don't want to take away individual rights, but when individual rights
have an effect on the greater whole, then, it does -- it's a protection of that groundwater.
So, I guess I don't understand the thought process when there is a municipal system
and the integrity of that system is kept better when there is less holes in the ground. I
don't know. I am not a water geologist, thank God.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Maybe you are.
Rountree: An explanation. You're dealing with Rob, who is an agency individual who is
exercising ordinances and rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the
state legislature and I needn't say anymore.
De Weerd: Is there a communication tool, though, that when a permit is taken out that
the municipality knows that, so if there is a 14 day period that they can contest it and
say it doesn't fit with your ordinance? How do we ever know a permit is taken out?
Rountree: We don't.
Whitney: Madam Mayor, I think our agency is -- we have been interested in intra-
agency coordination with local governments. DEQ, for example. I think something like
this can initiate some of that -- that dialogue that t can take back to the section manager
that -- I work on a regional basis, however, I do help throughout the state and the
manager of the section -- this is something that we -- we have discussed and maybe it's
time to bring it up again. With respect to your concerns about holes in the ground, if
every hole that goes into the ground absolutely has some potential if not properly
constructed, to be in an avenue that could conduct or further contamination that may
occur around that well or contamination that may already exist in the sub surface. My
responsibility as the on-site person to try to get to as many jobs as I can to make sure
that in the construction of those wells that that doesn't occur and that's the basis of our
rules and it was one of the main bases for the rewrite of those well construction
standards. So, if it gives you any peace at all, these wells are constructed and this
particular well, actually, was -- was constructed -- we implemented -- our director
agreed to implement the new well construction standards as of the 1st of July. The
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 45 of 52
drillers report here for Mr. Carroll's well shows a start date of June 4, which, basically,
would have allowed the driller to construct that well to the lesser standard that was in
place before and I notice here on the well log that that was not done, he actually
employed a higher standard that was required by the new regulations in the
construction of this particular well. I see many of these wells go in in the city of Boise
on very small lots for yards, little 5,000 acre yards, believe it or not, but somebody
thinks it pencils to put in a well to -- to water the lawn. So, we have these internal
discussions about should there be some sort of a quota for areas where domestic wells
should not be drilled and especially related to areas that are serviced by some other
type of water. But, ultimately, that will be a decision -- policy decision that will be made
by the director of the department and I certainly, you know, bring your concerns up and I
know that the people that have worked with the City of Meridian and the wells that you
have drilled -- and I have been involved, you know, with many of those myself, that the
consultant that works on a lot of those wells is his concern as well and, you know, we
can initiate some dialogue there. 1 don't -- I don't know where it will go, but -- and
ultimately this is a higher level than myself.
Zaremba: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Yes, Mr. Zaremba.
Zaremba: I just am thinking about the global picture, not necessarily just this one well,
but I agree that it's important to preserve personal freedoms. On the other hand, the
person makes the choice when they move to an urban area that there are some
freedoms that they are not going to exercise fully. For instance, in an urban area it
probably isn't proper to practice your bugle at 2:00 o'clock in the morning, if you play
that instrument, or there is zoning that says it's not proper to build a cement factory in a
residential district. It would seem like this is another one of those choices that when you
move to an area or the area comes to you, that is an urban area, you aren't quit as free
to do your own thing as if you live farther and farther from that urban area and in the
future exploration of whether there might be a place where well permits were not given.
I'd just like to have that thought of, that perhaps that's not a freedom that should be
allowed in an urban area. Personal opinion.
De Weerd: Anything further from Council? Thank you.
Whitney: Thank you.
De Weerd: I know you're the messenger.
Whitney: Well, I hope you got the answers that you got, not necessarily the ones you
wanted.
De Weerd: We did.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 46 of 52
Hoaglun: Madam Mayor, that's one thing about -- I like to look forward to is I always
manage to learn something new, so --
De Weerd: Council, did you have any other questions for staff or --
Rountree: I have none.
Bird: I have none.
De Weerd: Would you like to comment? Yes. Oh, there is my baby. Isn't he cute?
Carroll: Well, thank you for that little brief little moment there.
De Weerd: Yes.
Carroll: Okay. I have made some notes and I am -- hopefully I can talk coherently with
regard to some of these issues that were brought up. First of all, I'm not -- I wasn't
intending to cause a contamination issue. I wasn't really aware that that was going to
do that.
De Weerd: No. That was just my --
Carroll: I know. I know. I just want you to know that I didn't even really know that that
was a possibility and so I -- I wasn't trying to create a problem. But I did want to make
sure that I hired a reputable well driller who would do a good job and as he mentioned
that he did do it to the higher standard, even though he didn't have to and make it a
good well, because I told him I wanted to make it be a safe, good thing. And I was
interested in preserving the environment along with all of you. So, anyway, I -- I'm glad
that he outlines the -- that my well driller did go through the proper channels to get the
permit and do what he did. And as far as other people doing this, I don't know that it's
very likely, because it's got -- I have got like 15,000 dollars into this process. So, I mean
how many people are going to go out and spend 15,000 dollars to do this? I don't know.
But the violation of the ordinance that you spoke about, it was my understanding of it,
when I read it, was that I wasn't supposed to hook a well system to the city system in
my house. That's what I thought the ordinance is saying. You're shaking your head no.
Can you -- do you have it to read it to me, so --
Nary: That's incorrect. It requires that all domestic services be provided by the city if
it's available. So, it isn't just that you can't -- you have to have the city's water provided
and you can't use anything else. If you had adomestic -- if you had a well system in
your house and you annex into the city, then, you would be required to unhook that and
hook up to the city system.
Carroll: And I am hooked to the city system.
Nary: Right.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 47 of 52
Carroll: And I --
Nary: But you can't have a secondary source.
Carroll: But it wouldn't be connected.
Nary: You can't have a secondary source to the house when you're in the city. You can
only have the city as a domestic provider of water. And if the Council were to allow this,
they would have to repeal that ordinance and allow everyone in the city to do this if they
chose.
Carroll: Okay. So, my first -- so, I -- I wasn't clear on that. My understanding was that it
was that I wasn't supposed to connect to the city system and so I was envisioning a
separate -- a separate -- my well to be separate from the city. That's what I was
envisioning. But if you're telling me that -- that it's not allowable -- that the ordinance
says that I can't bring it to my house, then, the choice that they were saying of having a
spigot outside my house is -- is an option that Ican -- I guess I can do and still survive
and it's just not going to be as convenient or as nice. But it would be something that
could still survive with and --
Hoaglun: And, Mr. Carroll -- and I'm recalling when we built our house on the farm
property, we tore down the old farm house, built the new one and, then, when we got
annexed into the city we had to severe that connection to the house and my wife said,
oh, it would be nice to have this -- you know, one of those big tubs in the garage, you
know, because sometimes you got things to clean and different things and in checking
with the inspectors, we couldn't run that even just to that and I think that's what you
were looking at is to even just run it to the house to that one sink to have that tub of
water for -- in her mind, she has lots of crappy stuff and different things, you know, she
makes a mess in a lot of areas, but we couldn't even go there, because that was
connecting it to the house and not necessarily into the water system, but just into the
house. So, that's -- we had to keep it completely separate. So, as Mr. Nary pointed out,
that's what the ordinance requires, so we -- and I wasn't even on City Council, then,
wasn't even thinking about that. So, had to follow the ordinance and that's what we did,
so -- we still have that spigot and access and everything else, so I have to do other
things, so -- and that's -- we make do.
Nary: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: Madam Mayor, Members of the Council. Mr. Carroll, what our code says -- and I
will just read the one that's applicable to your situation, but the owner or occupant of any
house, building, or property used for residential uses or any other purpose situated
within the city is hereby required to cease using any other water system at his expense
and connect such building directly with city water in accordance with the provisions of
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 48 of 52
this chapter, as long as city water is within 300 feet of any property line where said
building is to be served or located. So, it's not that you can't -- your belief was that you
could have an alternative source. Our code prohibits any other source other than the
city.
Carroll: So, can I ask a question? What if I have a Culligan deal or whatever -- water
disposal and I get this five gallon tank that -- and I put that water system in my house,
that's an alternative water system, other than the city's. Is that not -- is that prohibited
also?
Nary: You mean if you bring bottled water in your house?
Carroll: Yes.
Nary: That's not a water system as defined by the city code. You can go bring in
bottles of water into your house. That's not an issue. It's a water system that serves a
domestic use for the house. That's what you're wanting to do and that's what our code
prohibits.
Carroll: Well -- and so, then, I'm -- it's not likely that I'm going to get you to change the
ordinance. I realize that. I'm a reasonable person. And so I guess if you're willing to
say that I can use my well to have a spigot by the side of my house and to potentially
use for my sprinkler system also, then -- then, that's what I want to request and --
De Weerd: I think that's allowed by ordinance.
Nary: That's already allowed.
Carroll: Okay. Then, if that's already allowed, then, your question about if -- then, if
can drill a well and had a spigot outside my house for my domestic use outside, then,
I'm not in violation of the well driller permit laws, I have a right to do that.
Zaremba: That would be correct. Yeah.
Bird: As long as it don't hook to a house.
Zaremba: Yeah.
Carroll: So, then, you're telling me I don't even really need your permission to do that?
Hoaglun: You're good to go. And the good thing is if the Mayor has her way, it sounds
like you won't be able to -- people won't be able to drill wells in the future, maybe, and
you got grandfather rights and --
De Weerd: I was just asking about long term --
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 49 of 52
Hoaglun: Yeah. You're grandfathered in and so you got a -- you got a well on your
property that you have got, so --
Carroll: And wanted you to also know that -- maybe I don't know if I should even say
this. Just to let you know I have integrity about this whole issue. There have been
people who told me, well, you don't have to say anything, you can just like, you know,
do this and, then, do that and like -- and make it happen and nobody is going to really
going to know, but -- and I -- and maybe potentially I could have done that, but that was
not what I wanted to do. And that's why I have gone through the proper channels to get
permission to do the right thing. And so I want you to know that that was my thinking
about this whole process and so I'm appreciating your time and I hope that you didn't
feel like I was wasting your time, but I was doing it because I was wanting to accomplish
something for my purposes and I was wanting to do it in legitimate channels and that's
why I have taken the time to this evening to do all this.
Rountree: And thank you. We appreciate that.
De Weerd: We appreciate that.
Hoaglun: And, Madam Mayor, just a comment. And, really, you know, a lot of these
things we get, you know, they sound reasonable, but looking long term where we can
trust your integrity, it's the people who come after you, as Mr. Barry mentioned, other
people do other things and they make changes that they shouldn't make that affects
public safety and that's -- that's the part that we have to keep in mind. You and 1 may
agree and you're not going to do this and you will be bound by it. That's great, but,
then, the person who comes along after you, we don't know what they are going to do
and that's -- that's where we have -- that's where the issue becomes a problem.
Carroll: But in my mind the truth is somebody comes after me -- I'm going to live in that
house until I die and I'm going to live way past a hundred and I'm only 56, so it's going
to be a long time. But may be 50 years or a hundred years from now somebody -- if
there is a spigot right outside my house, as well as a line there, and whether it's like in
my house or right next to my house, if somebody wanted to do that, it's not going to be
any really difference in my mind.
Hoaglun: And just a comment, Madam Mayor. You know, we do appreciate people
who want make sure they are -- they are responsible for their things and that's --
sometimes we see too little of that. So, I just want to thank you for doing what you think
is the right thing to do and want to be prepared and, like I said, sometime we see too
little of that.
Carroll: Thank you.
Zaremba: And I want to say I appreciate your bringing it up. We .have new things all
the time that we need to discuss and think about and I certainly appreciate your
concern. I hope you never ever have to use it and if you ever do that you only need it
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 50 of 52
for a very short time. Because certainly the city -- if we ever are out of production the
city will do everything we can to get back into production as fast as we can, but I
appreciate your bringing it up.
Carroll: I'm a physician and I know that like sometimes there have been issues where
people purposely -- like for terrorist purposes can contaminate water with some
bacterial or some kind of like crypto's or, you know, some kind of organism into the
water system, could be a big problem and it could be difficult to clear up and so --
mean Idon't -- I don't want to envision something like that, I want to be like you and
think that it's never going to be the case and so, anyway, I appreciate your time and I
guess I learned a lot tonight.
De Weerd: We did, too. And I appreciate that you are doing over and above. I know
when we dug our well where there wasn't a municipal system, we encased -- fully
encased ours to municipal standards, because I do believe in the integrity of not only
my well, but everything around it as well. So, I appreciate learning about you going the
extra step. Appreciate that.
Carroll: Thank you.
De Weerd: Okay. I guess, Mr. Nary, do we have to deny this or just --
Nary: Yes. Make your motion and -- you have a request before the Council, you would
have to make a decision and make a motion.
Rountree: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Rountree.
Rountree: I move that we instruct staff to work with Mr. Carroll on the establishment of
an external water delivery system from his well and that not to approve the request to
have the well connected within the house and provide an alternative water source.
Bird: Second.
De Weerd: I have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Madam clerk.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
De Weerd: All ayes.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Item 12: Amended onto the Agenda: Executive Session per Idaho State Code
67-2345 (1) (c) - To Conduct Deliberations Concerning Labor
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 51 of 52
Negotiations or to Acquire an Interest in Real Property, Which is not
Owned by a Public Agency
De Weerd: Item 12 is an Executive Session. I would entertain a motion.
Bird: Madam Mayor?
De Weerd: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I move we go into Executive Session as per Idaho State Code 67-2345(1)(c).
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: Roll call, please.
Roll-Call: Bird, yea; Rountree, yea; Zaremba, yea; Hoaglun, yea.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
EXECUTIVE SESSION: (9:58 p.m. to 11:04 p.m. )
Rountree: Are we recording?
Bird: Oh.
Rountree: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor say aye? All ayes. Motion carried.
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
Rountree: Move we adjourn.
Bird: Second.
Hoaglun: Second.
De Weerd: All those in favor?
MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES.
De Weerd: Thank you.
MEETING ADJOURNED AT 11:05 P.M.
Meridian City Council
May 4, 2010
Page 52 of 52
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