HomeMy WebLinkAboutDiscussion MinutesCITY OF MERIDIAN
PRE-COUNCIL MEETING
AGENDA
Tuesday, January 21, 2003 at 6:00 p.m.
City Council Chambers
Roll-call Attendance:
Tammy de Weerd _
Cherie McCandless
Mayor Robert Corrie
2. Adoption of the Agenda:
Bill Nary
Keith Bird
3. Continued from January 14, 2003: Discussion /Decision on MOBS
Billing Directive: Table until February 4, 2003
(5 minutes)
4. Discussion of Fire Department Plan Review and Inspection Fees:
(10 minutes) Get response from other organizations
5. Discussion of Lee Centers Project (fka Powder River Subdivision):
(25 minutes) Table until February 4, 2003
6. Discussion of Dust Abatement Ordinance: Get input from other
(5 minutes) organizations & prepare for Public Hearing on 3-0403
7. Discussion of Tully Skate Park: Discussed
(5 minutes)
8. Discussion of Infrastructure of Urban Renewal District:
(5 minutes) Move to Item 19 of the Regular Agenda
*Approximate allowable time set for agenda item may change depending on
discussion. Please use the designated minutes as a guideline only.
Meridian City Council Agenda - Jam~ary 21, 2003 Page 1 of 1
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Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 6 of 21
Nary: Right so it's just a permit for removal, it's a different process and fee for the
installation.
Silva: Yes that's correct yes, the 200 dollars -
Nary: -- I just didn't want someone to think I'm paying for something that I'm not getting
anything for.
Silva: Yes it's one or two tanks for 200 dollars and then 50 dollars per hour for a
removal for the first hour and 30 dollars if it runs into a second hour rate it doesn't
typically run that long.
Nary: Great, thank you.
De Weerd: Council any other questions? Do you feel comfortable having Kenny and
Joe bring this out into community for public comment?
Bird: Sure absolutely.
McCandless: Yes.
De Weerd: Okay thank you so much. Go ahead, if you have any specific people that
you feel should get a copy of this please let Kenny know or Joe so that they can get a
copy to those individuals or organizations. Thank you very much Joe. Kenny anything
else? Okay.
Item 5. Discussion of Lee Centers Project (fka Powder River Subdivision):
De Weerd: Okay Item Number 5 discussion of Lee Centers Project. Gary do you or
Brad.
Watson: Madam President and Council Members I'm not quite sure how you want to
handle this if you want me to summarize past correspondence in meetings or if you
would like the developer to present their proposal first. I can do either one. I can simply
answer questions afterwards. I do have a list of questions, concerns, and required
information that we would need if this proposal moved forward and the City of Meridian
was involved.
De Weerd: Okay Brad I think maybe if you could give just a summary we'll ask the
developer if he would like to share anything and then we'll go over some of your staff
comments that we received I believe today.
Watson: Okay a summary may be a little bit nebulous. We've met with Mr. Centers and
his engineer in various formats a couple of times over the last couple of months.
They're looking at development south of Victory Road on Linder Road in the area that
was formerly known as Powder River Subdivision that went to the county in the summer
of 2001 and was denied ultimately. We had at their request meetings regarding water
and sewer facility issues in various forms. Based on last weeks meeting I'm not quite
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 7 of 21
sure what the present proposal is. It started out as a 39-lot urban density development
on 240 some acres or something like that but t think as the meeting progressed last
week we were looking at more than 39 lots. There is a whole array of issues everything
from them constructing their own private water and sewer facilities to the city providing
both water and sewer facilities under different operation maintenance and financial
arrangements. Do you want to hit on that range or -
De Weerd: Yes. At this point, yes. You might explain Cherie, Keith, and I were here
when Powder River came through originally but Bill Nary wasn't. Were you on Planning
and Zoning at the time? You might give an overview of what has changed. We had an
original proposal a couple of years ago. What was that and what has changed with this
proposal?
Watson: The proposal in 2001 included approximately 215 single-family lots on about
80 acres. The proposal at the time was that they would construct a community scale
centralized Wastewater Treatment System and a community water system. At that
time, we provided written comments and testimony to Ada County Planning and Zoning
Commission and the Board of Commissioners recommending denial of those because
of the provision of private companies providing centralized sewer and water services
within our impact area. There are a handful of other issues that we commented on at
that time regarding impacts to our sewer master plan. Ultimately it was denied and this
current proposal again all I have is an 8 '/z by 11 sheet of paper that shows 39 lots I
don't have anything in writing. Some of the discussions revolved around only those 39
lots although there was some discussion last week in a meeting that Mayor Corrie,
Council Member de Weerd, Gary Smith, Brad Hawkins-Clark and I attended with the
developer and his engineers in which they were talking about an initial I think 39 acres
urban density development followed by a number of lots every year 20 to 20 or 40 one
of those even numbers.
De Weerd: Twenty.
Watson: Twenty until that development was built out. In those discussions, we had
talked about them constructing a public water supply a well to our standards and
potentially the city owning or not owning but operating and maintaining that system.
Where when they annexed that well would somehow revert to the city and there would
obviously be a lot of financial negotiations for that to occur. My initial interpretation was
that they were going to still pursue the community scale centralized Wastewater
Treatment System but the idea was floated of pumping sewage from this proposal down
to the Bear Creek lift station which is a whole pother can of words. I can go over that
too but I think that's kind of the range of what we're looking at. There probably were
some intermediates between those two extremes but are there any particular issues or
questions on this I could answer?
De Weerd: Council.
Bird: No this is a new development (inaudible).
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 8 of 21
De Weerd: Okay Mr. Centers or your representative. There's no application file at this
point is that correct? Okay. Will you identify yourself and your address?
Boyle: You bet. Council Members Clint Boyle with Pinnacle Engineers, 12552 West
Executive Drive in Boise, Idaho. Would you mind if I borrowed the tripod for a minute if I
promise to put it back when I'm done?
De Weerd: As long as you promise.
Boyle: Mayor and City Council Members to start with I want to talk about just a few
points related to this vicinity map and I also have a handout that I would like to present
to the Council here in just a moment. First of all this particular project to orient you
some of you that aren't aware of where it's at is located on Linder Road and it's
approximately half a mile south of Victory. The Bear Creek Subdivision is indicated on
this map in the location of my pointer here. The Bear Creek Subdivision as the crow
flies would be located roughly a quarter a mile away from the property that Mr. Centers
owns. Mr. Centers owns the piece that comprises of just over 150 acres in this area.
The original subdivision that was referred to consisted of just over 70 acres of what Mr.
Centers owned and that particular project was roughly 215 homes. That project went
through quite a few different hearings, had quite a bit of input from the City Council of
Meridian, from Meridian staff related to various issues that Brad touched on. At this
point in time, there have been a couple of years that have passed since and some
things have changed around Meridian. The developer is proposing at this point in time
a 16-acre development with 39 lots. That's the proposal that he would like to present to
the Council this evening. If I could take a moment, I'll pass out an exhibit that
demonstrates that. This packet that I've provided you with, the first page of it
represents what Mr. Centers is proposing as a Preliminary Plat for this particular
property. The second page of the packet represents the Preliminary Plat with the
boundary area of the property, the overall property that Lee Centers owns. The square
boundary, roughly square and then in the southeast corner it's clipped by an existing
lateral. That represents his holdings right now that are Mr. Centers ownership. This
particular project that he's proposing is in a small area of that. There are several
existing parcels of land that he has accumulated to make the total 152 acres. The
particular development that he's proposing right now would be contained on one of
those parcels of land that he presently owns. The remainder of the packet represents
information that has been provided by Quality Water Systems, which is a wastewater, a
company that provides wastewater treatment systems for subdivisions in communities.
The first page lists projects that are either under operation with these treatment facilities
or under construction or approved within Ada County. This isn't a concept that is new to
Ada County as far as us being the first time this has been proposed. Ada County has
approved a various of these systems throughout the county and you can see a listing
there of those systems. One item of interest on the particular system that is referenced
here this particular system is the wastewater treatment collection system for the City of
Hailey. Hailey, Idaho this is their wastewater treatment system as a quality water
system 6,200 people on a quality water treatment system. Again, it's not something that
is a new concept. I think in our discussions with Brad he has also had opportunity
through his education and other areas to review these types of systems. From a
technical aspect, he seemed to be comfortable with this type of system performing the
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 9 of 21
way that indicates for sewage treatment. The remainder of that talks about a quality
water system and basically the -hopefully answers some of the questions that you may
have regarding how the systems are maintained, what the financial operating costs are
for these systems based on a per home basis. The way that Lee would set this up is
that the homeowners would be charged a monthly fee as part of their Homeowners
Association dues which would essentially be a fee that would be comparable to what
the city might charge for their sewer treatment billing to existing homeowners. That's
what the next information provides. The final provisions in there are a service provider
contract that is just a standard contract that they sent over which is one that they
typically enter into with the developer or other entity to provide those sewer treatment
services. Now to back up just a moment and Lee, Mr. Centers the developer does not
want this to be known as what it was formerly known as because this is a different
proposal that's in front of you so I won't even mention the name. It's been batted
around because he probably wouldn't want me to. This particular project again is 39
homes. I believe you've had some handouts from the Planning Department in - I was
going through a list of meetings that we've had. The reason we're in front of you is we
want to get the City Council's input because ultimately in your response to Ada County
at least in the past on projects that have been within the area of impact they do look
closely in your input. Mr. Centers he has not applied or submitted any applications
however to date we've had eight meetings with staff, the Mayor, the Fire District et
cetera to talk to them and discuss the issues around this project to try and reach
consensus with everyone. We've met with Mr. Watson, with Gary Smith, Brad Hawkins,
Joe Silva, all of them are here, and they can vouch for that as well. We're also here in
front of you tonight. Essentially, where we are we at and where does this project come
from? When we met with staff this last time, and the Mayor was involved in that
discussion as well there was a lot of discussion related to the potential of a city well
located on this site. That would be let me get a full size exhibit here. It would be
somewhere in this northern area here that there would be a well constructed to city
specifications. There was a lot of discussions about the well and dedication of that well
to the city and (inaudible) financial obligations to construct a well and then dedicate it to
the city. At this point in time, what the developer would like to propose is to proposed
the 39 lot development only, construct a what would essentially be a community well
however would be constructed to Meridian City standards for a well. Really, what we're
asking for is a favorable recommendation from the City of Meridian for this project.
Then over the upcoming year or two Mr. Centers has a project that he can begin
developing in recouping some of his costs into the land and that will give us some time
to work with the city on the well, the issues of dedication of the well and eventually what
would be the project as a whole. Mr. Centers eventually would like to see this entire
150 acres developed into urban type densities. Now with that said, the existing zoning
on the overall 152 acres is RUT in the county. RUT allows for a minimum lot size of five
acres. Therefore, Mr. Centers is faced with a couple of options. One, he could develop
under the current zoning standards of the county and come in with a subdivision on the
entire 150 acres that were essentially five acre lots developed to more of a rural type
standard with individual well and septic systems on those lots. That's based on his
current zoning in the county within his property. Another option that we talked about
with the city staff is Ada County also has a provision within the RUT zone that you can
cluster buildable lots in an area of the site and kept the remainder in open space until
services are available. With this proposal in front of you tonight, Lee is proposing to
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 1 D of 21
request a zone change with the county on the 16 acres only not the entire 152 but the
16 only to an R4 zoning designation in the county, which essentially allows him to
develop an urban style development here. This would be very similar to the
development that you would see if he used his RUT cluster option as far as the number
of homes. It would be roughly the same number of homes. It would be slightly less if
he came in with the cluster development under the present RUT zoning designation.
Basically, what he's proposing is a development that is very similar to what he's already
afforded based on the existing zoning. However, he wants to keep the remaining land
in RUT for now in evidence of his good faith to continue to work with the city staff on the
issues related to the well dedication and sewage issues with the Black Cat Trunk
extension. Over the next year or two, he could have time to negotiate with the city and
see if they can come to a reasonable conclusion on the remainder of his site. If they
can then at that point he would potentially come back with another Preliminary Plat for
the remainder of the site or whatever was negotiated. However, he wants to be clear
because it seemed like there was a little bit of confusion back and forth that right now all
he is asking for is 16 acres, 39 lots, which is similar to his existing entitlement based on
the RUT zone. What are the advantages and disadvantages? The scenario right now
with five acre minimum sizes in an RUT zone I believe would not only be detrimental to
Mr. Centers but detrimental to the city. If Mr. Centers were to develop this property with
five-acre lots, essentially what you've done is you've created an area where it's going to
be very difficult to develop at urban densities in the future. You're going to end up with
more of a scattering of potential. people that may come in it's not going to be a
coordinated master plan development. Fire protection services are not as good
because you've got longer street runs serving fewer homes. You don't have the fire
protection that would be afforded being on a community well system. There are just a
lot of issues that surround those five-acre lots. Part of this that I would like to point out
is that Bear Creek Subdivision extends down to Victory on this line here. The rough
dark outline here represents city limits, current city limits. Now you can see there are
same lots south of Bear Creek in this location here that are developed to urban
densities. That particular development is called Kentucky Ridge and Lee might correct
me on this I believe that came in late 90's, okay maybe it was mid 90's then around 94'
on Kentucky Ridge. That particular development when it came in was granted approval
on a community sewage collection system under the same Comprehensive Plan that
you're operating under -well that the county is operating under right now which was
your 93' Comprehensive Plan. Same Comprehensive Plan and their on a community
sewage and community water system. Now the interesting thing at that point in time is
that in the conditions of approval with the county they indicated that at the time that
Meridian had sewer treatment services in this area that this subdivision would be
required to connect to city services. It was in Ada County's conditions of approval and
Mr. Centers has talked to them about that however the county is not going to enforce or
require annexation and connection into a city because of jurisdiction issues. There
weren't any teeth behind that condition of approval with the county. If there had been a
Development Agreement and annexation request on this particular piece for Kentucky
Ridge then Mr. Centers' piece of property could potentially actually be contiguous to city
limits right now had that Development Agreement been in place and Kentucky Ridge
connected in and been annexed into the city.
De Weerd: Mr. Boyle.
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 11 of 27
Boyle: Sure.
De Weerd: Could you summarize?
Boyle: You bet, so the issue is this. Right now this proposal in front of you based on
the surrounding development patterns that have already been approved in the county
here it makes the extension of the city southward in this area very difficult within this
entire square mile based on these existing county subdivisions that have been
previously approved. Mr. Centers is willing and has discussed this in the past to also
enter into an Annexation Agreement essentially. An agreement that he would indicate
on his plat that this particular subdivision would annex into the City of Meridian when
contiguous to the city or when requested by the city which would be a similar item to
what you see within Boise City's area of impact. They now require that on the face of
the plat that it include a note that annexation is requested into the City of Boise. The
City of Boise may annex this property at any time. He would also essentially include
that his CC&R's and would be willing to also incorporate them on the deeds for the
individual lot owners that annexation request. Where does he at right now? Lee would
like to just get an indication from the City Council of support on this particular project.
He would be willing to request that annexation for this project when the city is out in this
area. Then in the meantime be able to negotiate and work with the staff and City
Council on the future development on the well and upfront he would construct that well
so it would be something that the city could take over if we come to agreement on the
development of the remainder of the property.
De Weerd: So Mr. Boyle on your cluster densities is that what your 39 lots will be if -
Boyle: It actually I believe comes out to 30 or 31 lots if you took the overall property
because the county with their cluster developments allows you to have double the
density that you would normally get based on splitting it up into these large five-acre
lots. The reason they do that is to allow for cities to have a more consistent growth
pattern where it's not split up into parcels that are difficult to develop. This is more lots
than that by eight lots, eight or nine lots. The only reason for that is just so he could
essentially have lots on either side of the road based on the road network.
De Weerd: But on the cluster densities they allow you those number of lots until the city
is contiguous to the development is that correct?
Boyle: No until the city is contiguous it's actually until municipal services are available.
If you guys went out like Vienna Woods and brought a sewer or lead, in for that matter
they would allow that to further subdivide and develop. Yes, their restriction is if you
come in with a cluster you have to wait until the urban services are available to the
property or municipal services. Again that would be essentially in your hands I guess
and Lee's potentially to get those urban services of the property and allow for the future
development.
De Weerd: Okay any other questions or any questions other than my own?
Meridian City Council Meetlng
January 21, 2003
Page 12 of 21
Boyle: Could I just raise one more point if I may?
De Weerd: Yes.
Boyle: Thank you. The only other point that I did want to mention is this property has
been in the urban services planning area for the City of Meridian since that 93' plan. In
otherwards, Lee has been in there for 10 years waiting for sewer and obviously there
are a lot of sewer issues with the city and a lot of growth and it's made it difficult to
extend trunk lines (inaudible) different areas. He just wants the City Council to realize
that he has waited some time for services to get there, now it's. actually at a 10-year
period, and services still aren't there. This is still within the urban services planning
area and it is still shown as single-family residential in your Comp Plan for urban
densities of what is it Dave, three to eight dwelling units per acre. Thanks.
De Weerd: And I guess the risk you take if we take it out of our area of impact is then
you would only be allowed the urban density or the rural densities.
Boyle: Right.
De Weerd: We're well aware of the commitments to our area of impact but we also
have a budget that we have and a master plan that we have to stay within too. Staff do
you have any additional comments you would like to add. I guess at that point we need
to hear from Council and if there's any comments that they feel comfortable with making
tonight or if it's something that you need to think about. Gary.
Smith: Madam President and Council as Clint mentioned we have had several
meetings with Lee and with him. I think John Carpenter was at the last meeting.
There's also been a proposal by Lee that the city could become involved in the
operation and maintenance of this well under a separate agreement with a possible
future right of purchase our system grew out to that point. Lee did something similar to
this with the City of Nampa recently on subdivision on the boundary of their area of
impact. It's - I don't believe it's even in their area of impact but it's right on the
boundary. I don't know the legalities of this. I told Lee and Clint in one of our meetings
I assumed that there's not a problem because the City of Nampa has moved forward in
this agreement signed by Mayor Dale and it's a matter of record. This would give us the
opportunity to have input into the construction and the design of the well. There's also
been some discussion concerning the sewering of this property this 39 lots and whether
or not that could be pumped into the Bear Creek lift station. In visiting with Brad, that's
going to take some considerable investigation as to the capacities that are available.
Not only in the Ten Mile Creek Trunk Line but also in the eight-inch sewer that this Bear
Creek lift station discharges into on Overland Road. That may be the limiting factor in
that proposition. Those are two additional items that we've talked about that I wanted
you to be aware of if there's a decision that the Council makes that you want to proceed
on that basis. It is a as far as the well siting is concerned it does -
***End Of Side One***
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 13 of 21
Smith: -- to our conceptual plan far well siding that we've established in our planning.
That's a good point.
De Weerd: Any questions or comments?
Nary: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Nary.
Nary: I guess I would like to have a little bit of time to think about it. I mean I think there
are obviously some pros and cons that are better than what was presented previously in
the unnamed other subdivision. I guess we need some time to digest it. Like I said I
think there's some good and bad and I think there's some - I appreciate Mr. Centers at
least coming forward with some proposals that looks -that there are some benefits to
the city and there is some give and take here to be looked at. I think that's very positive
and I appreciate that. I guess we need a little time to just think about. I don't know
whether we want to have a discussion again at Pre-Council on this issue or I think Mr.
Boyle and Mr. Centers wanted at least some idea what we're thinking about it to go
forward on. I don't know when we have time that week or two to put this back on. I
think you've brought some very good points and I appreciate your presentation and
some of these things that you've discussed. I do think as Council President de Weerd
said you know we are concerned about the urban packed and we are committed to
getting services to those areas. Ten years is a long time so I think we at least need to
evaluate what you're presenting because I think it's like I said it's presented some very
good ideas as well.
Boyle: Thank you.
McCandless: Madam President
De Weerd: Mrs. McCandless.
McCandless: Gary what's your estimation now of how long it would take to get the
sewer system out there?
Smith: I don't have an estimation on the Black Cat Trunk extension from where we're
planning to build it right now. We're planning to take it to Franklin Road. South of
Franklin Road with one leg and on Ten Mile Road and the other leg would be just north
of the Interstate to serve the Eastborn property that's at the northeast corner of I-84 and
Ten Mile Road crossing. That's as far as we have any plans to develop the Black Cat
Trunk.
McCandless: So actually they would have to maintain their own sewer system out there
until such time as we went out there is that correct?
Smith: Correct. The two alternatives that have been presented are to have an on-site
treatment facility such as has been proposed by Quality Water Systems. The second
alternative would be to pump into Bear Creek to pump into the Ten Mile Trunk.
Meridian City Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 14 of 21
McCandless: You haven't really had time to -
Smith: No, the option of pumping into the Bear Creek lift station as Brad mentioned
earlier it's going to take some study because it is somewhat complex and it's just a time
situation in getting that study done to see if there's a problem. If there is a problem,
where is the problem?
McCandless: Thank you.
Smith: You're welcome.
De Weerd: I guess these really do open up some policy questions. The pros and cons
listed by the staff in their memo of January 21St raises some of those questions. If the
Fire Department could also add to the pros and cons, I know that certainly a pro would
be the adequate fire flows that Mr. Centers had mentioned that he could do if he did the
city well. If they were to develop the five-acre sites, what kind of impact that would have
on your fire services out into those areas as well because of the type of fire protection
that they would need with those rural densities. I guess one more thing that if when we
visit this and I would suggest February 4th our meeting next week is just very packed. If
Gary you could let us know if they develop this in the rural densities the five-acres or
even the cluster how that would effect our ability to serve and plan the areas around
that. If that would be possible to have that information at that time as well is there
anything else? Mr. Bird did you have something?
Bird: No, I just echo you guys. I think this is a lot better than the former one was and
I'm not ready tonight to make a judgment on it. I would like to listen -hear some more
pros and cons.
De Weerd: Okay so we'll just put it back on February 4~' and see if we can get the
additional information for consideration. If we could get that at - and I know it's a lot to
ask but if you can get that to Council your earliest convenience, so they have time to
really look at it so they can be prepared February 4th to give some direction.
Smith: Madam President.
De Weerd: Mr. Smith.
Smith: I don't think we're going to have a hydraulic analysis done by them as far as the
impact on the sewer system.
De Weerd: That's fine Gary.
Smith: Brad was estimating several weeks four to six weeks at least to get all of those
things addressed.
De Weerd: That would be more an answer to if you could pump it into Bear Creek?
Meridian Ciry Council Meeting
January 21, 2003
Page 15 of 21
Smith: Yes correct. Correct that's right.
De Weerd: Okay that's fine.
Smith: Okay. We'll have as much information as we can put together for you at that
time. Would that be at aPre-Council Meeting again also?
De Weerd: Yes. Okay thank you very much.
Boyle: Thank you for your time this evening. February 4~' then.
De Weerd: February 4~'
Item 6. Discussion of Dust Abatement Ordinance:
De Weerd: Item Number 6 is the discussion of the Dust Abatement Ordinance. This
also, I believe that Mr. McKinnon had got it out to Council prior to the meeting. This
again is for your consideration before this goes out to the appropriate entities for their
review. Mr. McKinnon do you want to introduce the ordinance?
McKinnon: Thank you Madam President, Members of the Council you should have all
seen this once before. There may have been a few changes that have been made to it
and I'll just give you a brief background of what it is and why we need some sort of
ordinance. As you are all aware this last winter, we went through an inversion where
we had some unhealthy levels of air pollution. This would be an ordinance that would
help to eliminate the amount of particulate matter that's in the air. It goes through a
series of definitions. It goes through to explain what everything is what the PM-10 is
what PM-2.5 is. Those are just particulate matters and measurements of that and what
the effects of those are on the health, in the city and how they affect the people that live
within Meridian. Then it goes through some regulations. Just in a nutshell what those
regulations would be is that when somebody comes into apply for a Building Permit in
the City of Meridian or a Conditional Use Permit the applicant would have to sign a
piece of paper that - do you not have one Cherie?
McCandless: No.
McKinnon: Let me get you a copy.
De Weerd: Will do you have one?
Berg: Not with me it was emailed.
McKinnon: Basically in a nutshell what it would be is when someone comes in for a
Building Permit for the city they would have to sign a piece of paper acknowledging the
fact that there is a Dust Control Ordinance in place that they'll take their best measures
and they'll take procedures to keep the dust from being dispersed into the air or being
tracked out onto the road. Then when they would sign for that we would have a person
that `s responsible so if there's any reason that there's a problem on any of their sites
CITY OF MERIDIAN
PRE-COUNCIL MEETING
AGENDA
Tuesday, February 4, 2003 at 6:00 p.m.
City Council Chambers
Roll-call Attendance:
X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary
X Cherie McCandless 0 Keith Bird
X Mayor Robert Corrie
2. Adoption of the Agenda: Approve
3. Tabled from January 21, 2003: Discussion /Decision on MOBS
Billing Directive: Prepare Public Hearing and Ordinance
(5 minutes)
4. Tabled from January 21, 2003: Discussion of Lee Centers Project
(fka Powder River Subdivision): Table until March 11, 2003
(25 minutes)
5. Discussion of City of Meridian Initiated Area of Impact boundary
adjustments and Comprehensive Plan Amendments for 8.6 acres at
Muirwoods Subdivision, 5.3 acres at Ranchos Los Altos Subdivision,
and 8.64 acres east of Bremerton Subdivision: Approve
(10 minutes)
6. Discussion of Administrative Lot Split Ordinance:
(10 minutes) Move to Item 12 on Regular Agenda
7. Discussion of Open Vision Fencing:
(5 minutes) Move to Item 13 on Regular Agenda
*Approximate allowable time set for agenda item may change depending on
discussion. Please use the designated minutes as a guideline only.
Meridian City Council Agenda- February 4, 2003 Page 1 of 1
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Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
February 4, 2003
Page 8 of 17
Howard: Thank you Mayor and Council.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES, ONE ABSENT
Item 4. Tabled from January 21, 2003: Discussion of Lee Centers
Project (fka Powder River Subdivision):
Corrie: The next item is tabled from January 21, 2003 the discussion with Lee
Centers Project 25 minutes. I hope you guys can do it in that time because I'm
going to cut you off. We've got three other things right after that so can you do it
Clint?
Boyle: I will do that. I'll just stop mid-sentence if I have to.
Corrie: Okay you're on.
De Weerd: Just three minutes or less.
Boyle: Suggestion though it's only a suggestion. Good evening Mayor and City
Council Members Clint Boyle with Pinnacle Engineers 12552 West Executive
Drive in Boise. I appreciate your time this evening. I'll get right to the point on
this since I realize your time is limited. We had a discussion at the past City
Council Meeting regarding a piece of property that is located on the east side of
Linder Road approximately a half mile south of Victory. This particular property
consists of a total parcel area actually there are three different parcels of 152
acres that is owned by Lee Centers. Currently, this piece of property is zoned
RUT Rural Urban Transition in the County. There we go. Maybe we'll get there
staff is pulling up a map. This particular piece of property has had an application
before you in the past that was denied by the Ada County Board of
Commissioners based on comments received from the City of Meridian mainly
related to Wastewater Treatment Systems and other issues. What I want to
emphasize tonight is that what we put in front of you and what Gary Smith has
put in front of is several different scenarios. We've worked very closely and have
spent many hours with your staff in working on the issues surrounding
development of this particular piece of property. We've met with the Planning
Department with Public Work's on several occasions. We've also met with the
County we've met with the Fire Department, Fire District Committee Meetings
and if - we tried to work out as many issues as we can. That's why we're here in
front of you tonight because Mr. Centers obviously this time around wants the
city to be comfortable with whatever he presents to Ada County so that he will
have a good feasibility in getting the project approved. With that, I want to jump
into the scenarios real quick. In the spreadsheet, that I passed out is essentially
a synopsis of some of the comments that Gary Smith has provided to you in the
scenario sheets that he provided to Council.
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
February 4, 2003
Page 9 of 17
Nary: Mr. Boyle I don't mean to cut you off but I guess one of the things -you
know that the information we received from Gary Smith we just got today?
Boyle: Right.
Nary: Mr. Bird isn't here tonight and probably will be in a couple of weeks. I
don't necessarily want to put Mr. Centers off necessarily either but this is a fairly
significant project for the City of Meridian it was the last time it probably will be
this time. I don't want you to waste your time and have to go through this again
but I do think I guess for me I would like to have Mr. Bird's input. I don't know
timing wise how that works for you or your client you wanting to put this off for
three or four weeks but one I haven't had any opportunity to digest what you just
handed as, as well as what Mr. Smith sent us. I really would like to have Mr.
Bird's input and involvement in this as well. I would hope he'll be here within
three or four weeks but - so I don't want to waste your time but I just want you to
if you want to give us your spiel tonight you can and we're really going to want
you to come back and talk whenever the rest of us -everybody's here. What are
your thoughts is there a timing issue that is fairly critical? I don't want to put Mr.
Centers behind anymore either.
Boyle: What Council day I guess would we be looking at if we were to postpone
this again is there a specific date that -
Corrie: Well we would be looking at most likely either the 4~" or the 11i". It
depends upon his recovery. He would probably -four weeks would be a pretty
good shot to take however, not foreseeing anything that can come down the
pipe. If the Council, Mr. Nary, and I talked to some of the others, they would like
to have all of us in on this because this is a very important scenario that you're
doing. If you do it now you won't have the opportunity to do it again. We're
looking at the 4~' or the 11~" with all medical procedures following in line. Now
that's the question that we need to have you and Mr. Centers -can you hold off
till that? If you can't you probably will have to anyway not saying that you don't
but if they want all four Council people here then you will be that before
(inaudible) anyway. You can come up here Lee if you want to talk to.
(Inaudible discussion amongst Council Members)
Nary: The 11t" is probably the safest bet just because it's a little further.
Corrie: Well knowing what I went through and I was younger than he is it -four
to five weeks is necessary to really have the strength.
Boyle: I'm back. Clint Boyle again for the record. Yes, I discussed that with Mr.
Centers and obviously there - it doesn't sound like there is going to be any
decision tonight. He still would like, since we're here to just present the
scenarios to the Council that's here, maybe get any feedback on any items that
are in particular interest to the members that are here tonight. We'll try to be
Meridian City Pre•Council Meeting
February 4, 2003
Page 10 of 17
brief tonight and then present to the full Council in a month or whatever is
appropriate on the -
Corrie: Okay it's up to I mean you've got to quarter till so you've got 15 minutes
now.
Boyle: Okay. The scenarios that you have in front of you I'm just going to briefly
run through. What we put together are scenarios and we've worked again with
the staff on these different options as well. They've developed some pros and
cons from what the staff, also the developer sees, and then I have a spreadsheet
just kind of summarizing that. Scenario Number 1 out on this, particular piece of
property would be the development of the property under. the Rural Urban
Transition at five-acre lot sizes. That is the standard dimensional standards per
Ada County. Essentially, what you would end up with is a subdivision that
consists of 30 lots that were five acres each. Now with that as far as the type of
service provisions, out there water and sewer would be provided with individual
well in individual septic systems on each lot. The ACRD requirements since
these are over an acre and a half in size we would be allowed to develop it their
rural standards which means that it would just be an asphalt section with barrow
ditches on either side rather than your standard curb, gutter and sidewalk. As far
as fire protection again, fire protection there would not be any sort of hydrant type
system available for fire protection. This particular option minimizes the amount
of infrastructure that the developer needs to place in the project. However, with
that minimal amount of infrastructure the developer also doesn't realize is great
of a return as he potentially could on something that was more of an urban type
development. As far as the pros and cons to that to the City of Meridian, you
know Gary Smith has listed some of the pros that we discussed with the City of
Meridian. That the City of Meridian review time on the project would be fairly
minimal and there really wouldn't be any cost to the City of Meridian for this. As
far as the cons on that, five-acre development obstructs future extension of
utilities in the area. It conflicts with the Land Use Plan and the goals and policies
for urban type development in that area. The first scenario really I guess is
probably the most detrimental out of all of these from the city standpoint as well
as the developer doesn't want to have to perceive in that fashion if he can help it.
The next scenario is an RUT cluster. Again, this is allowed with the existing
zoning that's in place. Ada County allows you to cluster lots in an area in one
area of the overall site and with that clustering of lots you can have double the
number of dwelling units that you normally would get if you developed with five-
acre lots. Therefore, we would end up with 30 buildable lots. Based on their
standard regulations under the RUT cluster those lot sizes have to be between
one acre, an acre, and a quarter. If we clustered those lots each lot would be
roughly an acre in size and chew up 30 acres of land then the remainder would
be in a reserved open space area, which is somewhat interesting right now
because, Ada County is also amending their Zoning Ordinance that would -what
essentially would happen there is that open space would be reserved open
space until such time as there was a rezone to an urban zone. It actually -the
proposed amendment that they have would not even require municipal or
community services to be extended which has been the case in the past. Again,
30 lots one acre in size as far as the street sections again with this particular
Meridian City Pre-Council Meetlng
February 4, 2003
Page 11 of 17
development under the Scenario 2 it still isn't at the urban type of standards.
ACHD would require curb and gutter your standard street section but only require
sidewalk on one side of the street. Again, that applies in ACHD's policy manual
for lot sizes between an acre and an acre and a half. As far as fire protection,
again with Scenario 2 the lots could be developed with individual well and
individual septic systems that's with the cluster even. Again, fire protection
you're not going to have the hydrant service available with that option either.
You will not have -you'll lose the option of a community well, community water
system and community sewer system potentially. Scenario Number 3 this cluster
development that Mr. Smith has titled as community services and he's right.
With that one, again this is another scenario that's allowed by the County Zoning
Ordinance by the RUT zone. What it says is that a developer can come in,
propose a smaller lot sizes, and come in with a more compact development if it's
in line with what the city wants to see for densities in that area. Again, your
Comprehensive Plan signifies this area as three to eight dwelling units per acre
for single-family residential. This particular option the developer essentially
would come in with a proposal at say eight to 10,000 square foot lots and again it
would cluster. It would decrease the amount of land that's eaten up with the
cluster development. With this type of development, the county requires the
development to be on a community sewer system. Option Number 3 the
difference is you can go to smaller lots in accordance with the cities Comp Plan
but you do have to provide a community sewer system. Now they do not specify
that you have to have a community water system so again depending on the size
of lots that comes in, lets say Mr. Centers decided to utilize this option. He may
actually be able to still provide individual wells and again that would be
determined based on soil types and the size of lots. Obviously, if you got down
to 8,000 to 10,000 square foot lots then he would have to go with a community
water system that's Scenario Number 3. Scenario 4 would be a rezone of a
portion of the site and that option is what's in front of you here on the exhibit
would be something that would demonstrate that. Essentially, what would
happen is there would be a rezone of approximately 17 acres to an R-4 zone and
the remainder of the site would remain in an RUT designation. With that rezone
the developer again would go in, put in a community well, community sewer
system, you would receive your standard curb gutter and sidewalk type of
facilities. With this as far as fire protection again with this option if a community
well is designated then the developer would just provide a single point draft
station, which essentially would be one connection point for the Fire District. If
the city were to enter into an agreement which would essentially a first right of
your refusal or an option on the well and have the developer construct that so
that the city could take that well over in the future if they desired. Then there
would be the option there to install your standard hydrant system out in that area
as well. That's kind of briefly Scenario 4, which is an R-4 development now. I
just want to expand on that real quick here I think I have about five minutes left is
that right? Just to expand on that real quickly the city well option, which has
been an option that has been discussed previously with this Council, is an option
where the developer would be willing to enter into that agreement with the city.
Obviously he needs to -the more lots that he can obtain within this area that
mare that he can spread his costs out if he's going to actually construct a well to
city type standards. Again, he's proposing in the rezone 39 lots and then the
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
February 4, 2003
Page 12 of 17
opportunity to come back before the city at a future point and propose further
rezones of the property. The final option, which is Scenario 5, would represent
the entire build out of the project. Let me just flip my map over. As you can tell
this is the most colorful option. This particular proposal and this is just a rough
representation of what it may look like would represent the full development of
the project. What the developers indicated is with this development it would
entail roughly 455 residential lots and if a Preliminary Plat were approved by the
county for a development of this nature he would be willing to construct and
dedicated the well to the city so there would be no cost to the city for that well.
He would also be wiling to dedicate the park area and I just want to point that out.
I don't have my pointer here so maybe I can swing this around. The developer is
willing to dedicate in addition to that a park site, which would be in the eastern
area of the subdivision. In addition to that, then; is an existing easement that is a
gas line easement it's all under ground. He has an 80-foot corridor over that
area that he also has proposed as just open space or common lot. He would be
willing to also dedicate that to the city so they would actually have a greenbelt
pathway connection that would extend from Linder Road and could potentially tie
into other areas further north that would give a nice greenbelt pathway right to
the park in the east portion of the site. Now the advantage we discussed this
with the staff and then that park location that he would be willing to dedicate to
the city is somewhat central to the subdivision and there was some discussion
that it would function more like a neighborhood park. The real advantage here is
since it is on the border of his property on the east side down the road when
further development occurs south of Meridian and parcels adjacent to this
develop there would be the opportunity to obtain additional park land adjacent to
this depending on you know what the city wanted to see. If they wanted that to
be a larger park area within this particular area, that access is fairly easy access
back to the park on the proposed collector street. That collector street can be
modified to run to the park very easily. Again this is another option the -
obviously with this proposed project if he came in with a Preliminary Plat there
are constraints with the Black Cat Trunk Extension. The developer again
realizes that yet he also realizes that he has been in the urban service planning
area for Meridian for 10 years now based on the 93' plan and he just wants to be
able to recover some of his costs in the land and then be able to move forward
with the project. If he would have come in with something like this with this type
of development and the city supported something like this he would enter into the
agreements on the well to dedicate -construct and dedicate the well to the city.
Enter in agreement for the park site of the potential greenbelt if the city desired it.
Again, this would help to mitigate - I noticed the staff indicated that one of the
cons was that they wouldn't receive any park impact fees. Well he would be
willing to give them a park area with a greenbelt. Then the other item here is he
would also be willing to enter into an agreement for annexation when the city was
contiguous which could be recorded on the plat as well as in the CC&R's and any
other agreements for the city. Finally, with this particular option he would be
willing to have more of a slow managed growth if the City Council saw fit where
he would even be willing to say slow the growth. To where he would only be
allowed, to bring in a certain number of lots per year until such a time as either
annexed or that Black Cat Trunk were available. Those are the scenarios that
are out on the table and I know Gary outlined a lot of the pros and cons that
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
February 4, 2003
Page 13 of 17
we've discussed. I appreciate the staff time that's gone into this I know the~ve
worked on this quite a bit. I've had quite a few discussions with them on that and
it sounds like we'll be back in front of you again but just wanted to at least
present our case and hopefully get you thinking about the project a little bit.
Cowie: Okay. Anybody have any questions right now? Let's schedule this as a
come back time for Pre-Council presentation of March the 11th. Council have
any heartburn with that one? Okay great?
Boyle: Okay.
Cowie: Thank you very much appreciate your -
Boyle: Can I just bring up one more point? If the Council had any other issues
that they felt they want to discuss it would be nice to kind of know, get some input
on what those were. I know we talked about fire protection at the last Pre-
Council but if there are any other additional issues we've got some time here to
check into them.
Cowie: Okay I'll make it (inaudible) centralized that they can. bring it to me. I'll
see that you get it as soon as I get it. That will give you a chance to work it all in
by that time. If the Council will just bring them to me, I'll see that you get them
that same time.
Boyle: I appreciate it.
Cowie: We'll have them all itemized for you.
Boyle: Okay thank you.
Cowie: Thank you.
Item 5. Discussion of City of Meridian Initiated Area of Impact
boundary adjustments and Comprehensive Plan Amendments
for 8.6 acres at Muirwoods Subdivision, 5.3 acres at Ranchos
Los Altos Subdivision, and 8.64 acres east of Bremerton
Subdivision:
Cowie: The next item is the discussion of the Meridian Initiated Area of Impact
boundary adjustments and Comprehensive Plan Amendments. I guess that
would be you Brad. Okay.
Hawkins-Clark: Good evening Mayor and Members of the Council. You should
have received a memo from myself dated January 31St that kind of summarizes
the background on this. The Public Work's Departments of City of Meridian and
Boise City met several months ago to discuss several properties along our
eastern area of city impact boundary. Which ones may or may not be
serviceable by one or the other jurisdictions. That's sort of the origination for
these specific parcels that I was going to talk to you about tonight. The Boise
CITY OF MERIDIAN
PRE-COUNCIL MEETING
AGENDA
Tuesday, March 11, 2003 at 5:30 p.m.
City Council Chambers
1. Roll-call Attendance:
X Tammy de Weerd X Bill Nary
X Cherie McCandless X Keith Bird
X Mayor Robert Corrie
2. Adoption of the Agenda: Approve
3. Tabled from February 4, 2003: Discussion of Lee Centers Project --
Silver Creek Subdivision (fka Powder River Subdivision): Discussed
- no support
(30 minutes*)
4. Discussion of Marshall Ooden Proaerty Annexation at 1065 East
Fairview Avenue: Owner needs to check County Requirements
before decide
(10 minutes*)
5. Discussion of South Eaale Road Imorovements at St. Luke's (East
Magic View} Widening and Center Median: Move to Item 12 on
Regular Agenda
(10 minutes*)
6. Discussion of ACHD Road Widening Franklin Road Project /ROW
Purchase Agreement: Storey Park, Fire Station
(10 minutes*}
7. Discussion of Blakeslee 8r Associates Letter: Move to Item 13 on
Regular Agenda
(5 minutes*)
8. Update on Amending the Fence Variance Ordinance: Move to Item
14 on Regular Agenda
(5 minutes*)
8. Executive Session 67-2345-1-b: Move to Item 15 on Regular agenda
Meridim City Council Agenda - March 11, 2003 Page I of 2
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A~ane desiring accoromadafion for disabilities related to documems md/or hearings
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Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 11 of 25
some of those improvements and tie it in to future developments in some fashion.
Typically when it comes in it has to come up to what the standards are.
Hawkins-Clark: Thank you.
Corrie: Okay. Thank you Marshall. Let us know how you want to proceed.
3. Tabled from February 4, 2003: Discussion of Lee .Centers Project -
Silver Creek Subdivision (fka Powder River Subdivision):
Corrie: Discussion on Lee Centers project. Silver Creek Subdivision. Powder
River Subdivision. Brad.
Hawkins-Clark: Mayor members of the Council. The discussion here tonight on
Urban Services is on of a couple that you actually have on your agenda tonight
the last item on the regular meeting is also going to touch on this issue so. I trust
that you've had a chance to review the memo that I submitted and that Mr. Bird
has had a chance to review maybe possible some of the minutes from the last
February meeting that he missed which was one of the primary reasons that this
item was continued was because of his absence. I think generally what I've laid
out in my March 7th memo is the Planning and Zoning Departments there is just
three additional considerations that we had after the February meeting and of
course you had it one month before that as well. But we have received just today
a concept sketch plat for the 150 plus acres and the screen does show generally
the area that we are talking about. Victory Road is up here on the north Amity on
the south Linder. The property specifically is more less here at the half mile on
south Linder Road between Victory and Amity on the east side of Linder. Unless
you would like me to hit sort of point by point items of the memo. I think as I
understand the reason for this is to allow the Council to hear any other issues
from Mr. Centers or Clint Boyle his representative. There are of course all urban
service issues to be considered and the memo that you received last month that
kind of laid out the five development scenarios that he has available to him on
this property. Everything from leaving it as a five acre lot subdivision in Ada
County to developing a full blown urban density subdivision in the county but with
urban services. There are numerous sort of point kind of hanging on this that
have been discussed a well that Mr. Centers has offered to design and construct
and dedicate to the city to potential park land to potential substation fire lot, a
pathway greenbelt system. All of these things have been thrown out on the table
and essentially we are looking at a policy decision on whether or not that Council
is prepared to extend particularly I guess the urban water and sewer to allow this
development to happen in the county who has stated that they are looking very
strongly to the City of Meridian for our recommendation on this development. I
think the issue of -the path of annexation was one that I touched on and this
map doesn't give a real good overview but you can see the south end of Bear
Creek Subdivision here on the north side of Victory. Stoddard Road is here that
comes down. Kentucky Ridge Subdivision borders the property here on the
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 12 of 25
north. As you can see a lot of this Subdivision in Ada County, I think these are
one or two acre lot Subdivisions. Egers Subdivision and Pebble Lane, one to
three acre lots. Kentucky Ridge is here which is more of an urban density as well
as Meridian Heights Subdivision. So in terms of the city agreeing to except even
if the city required the lots to annex in the future when the city could annex it in
the future. The question is are we concerned about when that would be? So you
can see there are some challenges getting a path of annexation to this property.
It's not unforeseeable that it would come south of Meridian Heights and come in
this way. This property here as been discussed for development over the last
four or five years, on the comer of Meridian and Amity and that does border this
property. Mainly we just wanted to include that for your consideration. There is
also as I a put into the memo the condition that Kentucky Ridge Estates says that
they must connect to Meridian once the services are reasonably available. And
that condition is on the Kentucky Ridge Estates final plat. So you know I think
there's many considerations, you have in your packets a couple of letters from
Mr. Boyle that kind of hit some other highlights of the development and from a
long range planning standpoint I guess our opinion is to allow this to have a fairly
controlled staging or phasing of development at an urban density that we get the
sidewalks on both sides of the streets. That the lot sizes as they are proposing
an R-4 in Ada County, which would be sort of your 8 10 12 thousand square foot
lots. There certainly are some benefits to that as compared to letting it come in
with some services that are sort of partial compliance. I guess that's all I had.
Corrie: Any questions of Brad at this point.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: I guess hearing from staff. I know Joe took a look this from the fire
perspective and urban versus rural and he might have something to add at this
point.
Silva: Councilperson De Weerd, Council. We discussed this at the rural
commissioners meeting last night and Mr. Centers as of a bout a week ago there
had been a proposal to perhaps at least offer the city and the fire department a
potential site for a fire station location. One of the considerations in placing it
within this development would be with the development in the redevelopment
district in downtown Meridian we would have a greater need for services and we
need to be able to provide reinforcements for calls for service in and around the
speedway because of the intensity of the development that will take place around
that area. With that thought in mind a location strategically located closer to
Meridian Road, which would allow for a quicker access on our north south axis
might be more preferable for a future fire station location.
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 13 of 25
Corrie: Did that answer your question? Thank you. Okay Clint. We haven't got
all night so be quick.
De Weerd: Five minutes.
Corrie: Name and address please.
Boyle: Meridian City Council members. Clint Boyle, Pinnacle Engineers. 12552
West Executive Drive. I'll try to limit my comments to three minutes or less. I
may go over that slightly. I apologize. I was under the impression we were
starting at six o' clock. So therefore I'll try to keep it concise and not waste a lot
of your time tonight. This item has been in front of you previously. You have
seen a request in the past for a subdivision on this site and there were some
issues related to sewer treatment etcetera. This proposal that is in front of you
tonight is a project where Mr. Centers is striving to come up with a development
on the property and wants to proceed with some sort of development on the
property. He wants it to obviously be a benefit for himself but he's also tying to
reach some common ground with the City of Meridian and make this a
development that everybody can be happy with that the city feels they are getting
some benefit and Mr. Centers does as well. I will make the assumption that all of
you have seen the scenarios that have been presented so I'm not going to dive in
to a bunch of details on those. If you have questions I will answer those.
However what I did want to emphasize was a couple of things. Since the last pre
council meeting that we had on this site. I have had discussions with Brad on the
project on a couple different occasions and received his memo on that. The
discussions that we have had again from the planning standpoint was that it
seemed to be one of the preferable routes at least from the planning staff was
that we submit a concept plan that indicated what the overall build out of this
project may look like. Now with that concept plan again this would be an Ada
County project currently, with that concept plan if that moves forth and moves
through Ada County for approvals with the city's input we would also have a
request for rezone and a preliminary plat that would incorporate what essentially
would be 39 lots. Those 39 lots are shown on the exhibit in front of you. This
particular exhibit demonstrates the overall boundary of the property with what Mr.
Centers is proposing as phase one of this development. What does that mean
as far as submittals. Our submittal to the county would include the concept plan
for the over all build out showing the over all development of the property what
he has in mind. It would also entail a rezoning to an R-4 zone on the just over 16
acres indicated in what would be the south west comer of the property and the
preliminary plat on that same 16 acres. What does that do for the city? It
requires Mr. Centers to come back in front of the city with subsequent phases
with a preliminary plat the city will have more review and control as each phase
progresses forward. My understanding and Brad can correct me if I'm wrong
here is that the city at least from the City Council standpoint the final plats are not
reviewed by the council. So if a preliminary plat were approved on an entire
project that would be the only time that you would see the project and then each
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 14 of 25
final plat would just be staff level approval. Am I correct in that Brad? Okay. So
this way the City Council again can see the phasing as it comes in because we
would be submitting a preliminary plat on each phase along with the final plat.
As far as the other benefits to the city again you'll know up front what you are
going to have out in this area as far as urban development. What it also allows is
with Mr. Centers knowing that he can eventually move towards this ultimate build
out. It also allows him to make some commitments to the city as far as potential
dedications of well sites and also construction of the city well, which has been
discussed previously with Council, and we've had various discussions with Gary
Smith on that idea. Benefits again there to the city is that the city would be able
to have ownership of that well or at least some sort of first (inaudible) of the well
however that was negotiated with the city and that would keep any other surface
providers out of the area. In other words Lee would have the option if he were to
develop in the county and do a community well of having some other service
provider such as United Water take over that system for him. The other benefits
to the city is that the developer is also willing to negotiate for potential park
dedications and we do have a concept plan that was submitted to Brad that
shows the overall development. I do have some copies of that if Council would
like to see them, it indicates where the potential park dedications may occur. As
you recall the last time I was in front of you I actually had a copy of the concept
plan, that sketch in front of you and the idea here is that there is a few options
that may benefit the city. There would be a potential greenbelt pathway that
would extend from Linder Road to the eastern extents of the property to a park
site there. Then as future development occurred east of this project which would
be this larger parcel upon your screen that that could also expand upon that park
area and so the city could end up with a nice city park with a greenbelt path from
Linder Road right to the parkway. So there are some benefits that he's placing
out on the table with this development. Part of the issues that we talked about in
the past are the extension of services. Mr. Centers is interested in pursing
connection to city services of this project. He would be wiling to provide that
connection himself in the sewer and water main lines. And again this would be
based on his understanding that he would be over time allowed to proceed with
the full build out of the project. And realistically the way that boils down is that if
he only is only going to be looking at a development with ultimately 30 or 40 lots
out here till such time in the future as he is annexed or the Black Cat Trunk is
available, it doesn't give him as much flexibility to spread the costs associated
with construction the well, dedicating park sites etcetera. In my discussions with
Brad Hawkins-Clark with the city, my,understanding from the discussions that he
has had with public works was that Public Works from an engineering standpoint
felt that either method, either connecting to city services and or doing the quality
water system would potentially be a feasible route and it was more of a policy
decision and maybe Gary can clarify from an engineering standpoint but my
understanding is that public works department doesn't have any serious issues
with either the quality water system from a design standpoint and or the
possibility of extending that sewer system. And again Ihaven't -
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2D03
Page 15 of 25
(End of Side One)
Boyle: -- but he might be able to shed some light on that if there is objections
there. Has this occurred in the past, has the city extended services outside of
city limits previously? Again my understanding is yes they have. They've done it
with several other subdivisions, as you are aware. They have also done it with
other projects that Brad and I have talked about with Summers Funeral Home
and Edinburgh Place, Vienna Woods. I mean there are various examples that
we could give and all of them have unique situations related to them. This
particular project Lee is willing to enter into an annexation agreement with the
city. He would be willing to indicate that this project will be annexed when
contiguous to the city on the final plat on the deeds and the CC and R's. So it's
very clear to any potential buyers in the marketing disclosures that when the city
is contiguous that it would annex into the city. And he's also again willing to
enter into the development agreements for the well construction and potential
dedication to the wells and the park site as well. My understanding again and I
think we have all the players here is that Mr. Nichols had talked to the planning
staff about that and seemed to be under the impression that we would be able to
proceed with that route from a legal standpoint as far as having those provisions
in the development agreement that's entered into with the county. With that in
we are here tonight to try and come together and reach some consensus on this
and come up with a project that will benefit the city and benefit Mr. Centers as
well and everybody can come out feeling like it's a win win situation. And we are
here to hopefully receive some council direction on this. When we met with Ada
County on this project they preferred to see a master site plan on the entire site.
However with that said they said well in the past based on Meridian's comments
in the past they are going to look towards Meridian for some direction on what
Meridian wants to see in their area of impact. Again that is why we are here in
front of you tonight is to find out what our options are and how the Council feels
about the options and the offer that's on the table. Thank you.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: I got one for Gary more then Clint. But Gary I thought that they were going
to put in a first class sewer system that when we got ours out. I don't know any
sewer system that is even close to that area right now that is capable of being
hooked to. We can't go down Bear Creek because we overloaded baby. I'll
never vote to put anything more on that line.
Smith: Councilman Bird, Mayor and Council. There have been two options
discussed. One was the on site treatment facility. The other was to locate a
pump station on site and pump to the bear creek lift station in off peak hour time
schedule. We don't know for sure what the impact to our system would be with
that scenario. I've talked to Brad Watson about it and our discussion has been
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 16 of 25
that it probably wouldn't be that great of an impact on us on off peak times
initially. Full build out, that's another question that hydraulic calculation needs to
be made. You know we aren't absolutely sure how that is going to work or how
many homes could be developed under that scenario. We are interested in
seeing that operation of sewer and water facilities are available by the City of
Meridian and not another entity. Its my understanding and I can't recall who I
was talking to but I think that someone in our staff it might have been Brad
Hawkins-Clark about the definition of municipal services under a county
subdivision urban lot subdivision. That the County defines municipal services as
either city or a sewer water district. So I'm not sure about the legalities of the
dissolution of a sewer district or water district or how difficult that is. Seems like
somewhere along the line I've understood its difficult once they are farmed but I
don't know how difficult. The other thing that I guess one thing that we have
talked a little bit about previously is setting a precedent not only in this area but in
other areas in Meridian. I've always been of the attitude that we try hard not to
pump sewage from one drainage area to another just from an impact standpoint
on gravity service development. But I also understand that other cities have
worked in off peak hour periods of time for doing that on a temporary basis. Your
probably aware, well I'm sure you are aware of the interest in the construction of
the interchange on Ten Mile Road and I-84 along with the associated extension
of the Black Cat sewer trunk that we presently have a consoling engineer under
contract for design of that trunk right now and they are preceding with it. Were
assuming that all things go well with the acquisition of easements, approval of
plans etcetera. The engineer is projecting that that trunk lines should be
constructed within two and a half years something like that. The interchange is -
the developer Eastborn is being very aggressive about moving forward with the
design and they have done some preliminary concept design that the city has
been a partner in as far as financing and they have been very aggressive in
meeting with property owners and around the interchange and so you know its
hard to put a time period on that but it kind of boils down to financing that's
available. Or that they are able to secure that the developer is able to secure
that they can use as kind of a bargaining chip with ITD to secure state funding or
a share of that interchange. Difficult to -and at the meeting last week that Mayor
Corrie, Brad Watson and I attended a representative from ITD didn't want to put
his finger on any time periods as far as when this could happen. But anyway
having said all of that five to seven years from now that may be a reality, we just
don't know. And where Lee Centers project is, in five to seven years if we are
still pumping in to the Black Cat trunk and we do have an eight inch line in
Overland Road that this Black Cat sewer lift station pumps into that needs to be
analyzed for even during this off peak time pumping but I think even on the
shorter period we don't have a big concern with being able to do this. And I
guess weighing that against having another party enter into operation and
maintenance or ownership of a utility for the subdivision, water and or sewer.
Bird: Gary I don't believe we need to worry about having another party come into
our impact area. I think we still got some power as long as its in our impact area
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 17 of 25
we would have, as I understand it, we would have to agree with it. But when we
put the last one in that sewer system coming out of your department we had real
concern about not having the capacity on down the line. We had to do some
stuff at Franklin Road to change some things. What about Franklin Road as it
starts developing, we got and I realize they are not heavy users that are going
out there right now but station -
Smith: They are all flowing to the west into the Black Cat sewer
Bird: They all flow to the west are they doing that right now?
Smith: No.
Bird: What are they doing now?
Smith: They will be going into Franklin Road.
Bird: In the back right?
Smith: Yes, correct.
Bird: And as far as I now on that Black Cat Trunk we are only going to the
freeway at this point.
Smith: We're taking -our project is taking it to Ten Mile Road we are short of the
freeway by going through the property that Eastborn develops or owns.
Bird: Yeah we are going to Ten Mile and then at that point we go back up Ten
Mile and then we start getting the Franklin deal thing in here.
Smith: Right there is part of that that goes up Ten Mile Road.
Bird: I have absolutely no problem with this as long as you and Brad are
comfortable with it. But if it's going to affect somebody that is already on that line
that can't be on another line then we need to take another look. I think the
development that Lee has brought forward is very good. I like the R-4 situation
cause we as a city moves out there it'll conform and come into it. We don't want
another Kentucky Ridge sewer system. I have no problem with it but I just, after
Bear Creek your department was quite concerned that we had put too much on
that line. But if you are feeling comfortable now.
Smith: Well I guess the whole card here is that the sewage would be held on site
on their site in a holding take and it would be discharged to our system in off
peak time period. That's the whole card. Otherwise we would still definitely have
the same stance that we had on Bear Creek and I'm still saying this would kind of
a degree of hesitation because we don't know for sure what the hydraulic impact
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 18 of 25
is going to be to the system even in off period. We just got some flow information
from our Waste Water Department on Bear Creek. Brad hasn't had a chance to
analyze it to see what kind of impact that is having on the system right now. But
we do have that information now.
Bird: As long as you and Brad feel comfortable with it. I have no problems with
it. I have no problems if you feel comfortable with it. If we pass something and
recommend something and five months later have the staff come back and say
you guys screwed up. Like we had at Bear Creek.
Smith: We didn't say that Councilman.
Corrie: Any other comments from Council.
McCandless: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. McCandless
McCandless: At one time I know we had this concept of wanting to develop
Meridian from the inside out. Not from the outside in. Which is what we would
be doing with this. I'm still pretty consistent with my feeling that if we are going to
develop property south of the freeway we really need to take a long look at the
infrastructure and I'm not just talking about sewer and water but I'm talking about
roads. I'm talking about police and fire protection. I'm talking about all that. And
I don't agree with this type of concept out there at this time.
Bird: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Bird: Councilwoman McCandless. This would be Ada County's Police at this
point until we grew out and annexed. Then I'd hope our police department would
be grown. The fire district they are already paying taxes out there a pretty
healthy mill levy to the rural fire district for fire protection. That would be just
more money for the rural fire district. So in my book that isn't something -that's
something we should look at but it isn't a real big concern.
Smith: Mayor.
Corrie: Gary.
Smith: I'd like to make one more comment. What Brad Watson and I were in
need of is your opinion as to whether or not this is a viable request by the
developer so that we could as your engineering department move forward with a
hydraulic analysis of what impact this sewer system is going to have on our
system and if we are going to be able to handle this. Because at this point what
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 19 of 25
we have is kind of a gut feeling that initially we are not going to have an issue but
how far along the development of this 152 acres are we going to get before we
do have an issue even with off peak pumping.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. De Weerd.
De Weerd: Its sprawl. I've been trying to figure out a way to not be blunt but you
know I understand that Mr. Centers needs to do something because he has an
investment and he needs to do something. This is not a growth area that this
Council has talked about as any kind of priority and by either pumping or
anything else, its going against the policies that we have been. talking about over
that last year, two years, three years and if we make exceptions here we are
going to have to make exceptions every single time we might as well just change
our policies and say lets open the doors and I don't care where you are in our
area of impact have at it. We can't service that area. I'm more in the mind of if
we are not going to be able to service that in a timely fashion we should not have
it in our area of impact. And it should be allowed to grow at rural density
because it would be county property then. But at this point we can not support it
at an urban density its not good growth patterns, it's not what we have been
telling our public through the Comprehensive Plan process through any of our
ordinance discussions. Through even some of the development applications,
this will be totally inconsistent to what we have been talking about in the past.
Corrie: Let me asking you a question Clint. How long is your client willing to wait
until we have all these studies done?
Boyle: Hydrology study? Is that specifically -
Corrie: The other studies (inaudible) of why we should and all that so everybody
is comfortable. How long are you willing to wait?
Boyle: You know that's probably a question that Lee would have to answer
himself. I guess I would just bring up the point that he has been in the area of
impact and the urban service planning area for 10 years. He's still in it as of the
last Comprehensive Plan update he is still in the Urban Service Planning Area.
Now granted Ada County adopted that in 97 again that says an area that is
reasonably going to grow in 10 years and we are definitely out to those limits
right now. As far as how long could he wait, he's waited quite some time already.
Certainly he wants to move forward but he wants it to be something that again
that the city feels comfortable with and that would be a benefit to everyone. If we
are talking about a matter of weeks or a couple of months I imagine that would
probably be acceptable, if we are talking a year or to two years to do the studies.
That is probably not acceptable for what he is looking to do. I just might it on the
sprawl issue. Obviously there has already been a lot of development within this
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 20 of 25
area. There is Kentucky Ridge, Meridian Heights all of those projects have
densities that are very similar to what we are proposing here and they are all
right in the same section for what we are prosing this development. If you look at
surrounding sections in that area there aren't that many sections south of Victory
Road that have that type of urban density that has already occurred within it.
Tuscany Lakes Subdivision extends as far south and you can see from this map
as we are proposing here.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd.
De Weerd: You know I'm sorry but Clint I think the concept is really nice the
timing just isn't and I agree with your client. If we can't serve it in that 10 years
amount of time we should seriously be considering about taking it out of our area
of impact because even looking at all the indicators. We are not going to get the
Black Cat trunk to that area after, even within the next five or seven years from
what I just heard and two wrongs do not make a right. You know none of the
current Council right now we are sitting up here when -those applications came
through. I can't answer to that but what we've been trying to do is really look at
developing our community in a planned way that's going to benefit the
community as a whole and I don't even think we are going to be benefiting your
client by setting him out there, and I think it is in the middle of nowhere because
its not contiguous. And that is one thing that we really showed a commitment to
is growing contiguously from the inside out and not creating pockets and not
creating more headaches to not only our services but also our citizens. And I
don't know what direction the legislature is going to go but I'm really hesitant to
create another fiasco like happens in Boise or Rexburg or Hayden Lake or
anything else where I don't care how many places who put that you are going to
agree to annex when you are contiguous it probably has changed hands three or
four times by then and no one cares at that point they do not care that they
promised when they signed that they would annex, it still will be a nightmare.
And I don't think it's a policy that the city is eager to have to go through and
adopt.
Corrie: Okay I'm going to close this ofF real quick. Mr. nary do you have
anything.
Nary: Mr. Mayor I guess the only thing I would add is I think echoing the same
thing Council member De Weerd and McCandless said. This just doesn't seem
to fit and I think we probably need to look at taking this area out of the area of
impact. I agree with Mr. Centers, I mean he has waited a long time. We have an
obligation to get there we are not going to get there. It doesn't appear that we
are going to be able to meet that and I just assume move that out because
although I do agree with what Councilman Bird said was that its not necessarily
our police and fire that are serving this area all of those people think we are
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 21 of 25
responsible for the way it looks out there. It doesn't matter to them what car
shows up at their house. They think its our responsibility they think its all part of
Meridian its on that map that's its part of Meridian in their mind. And if we are not
going to serve it and that's what I'm hearing is that I think we really need to look
at that and whatever the county wants to do they can do.
Corrie: Okay. Clint.
Boyle: Can I just ask one final question then before we wrap up? Let me ask the
Council this then. If this property were contiguous to the city would the
discussion be different as far as the council's opinion. If this was contiguous to
the city would the thoughts and feelings be different?
Nary: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: Mr. Nary.
Nary: At least for me it would be more like Tuscany Lakes, you used that as an
example and it was contiguous to the city. That was why at least three of us
agreed that that was worth extending to. So if it was it certainly would be worth
that discussion I mean I think we still have some issues about service but I think
if it was contiguous it certainly would be a little bit more to talk about.
De Weerd: Mr. Mayor.
Corrie: We have too many ifs going here for me and the way I'm hearing it we
have three to one and that's not going to give me an opportunity to do anything
but personally I think there is just too many ifs here. We got people all around
that's going to want to come in and everything else so Mrs. de Weerd you can
have the last word here.
De Weerd: I guess I just wanted to respond to Mr. Boyle's question it would be
slightly different because the access that you are talking about is off of Linder
and none of the urban densities in that area is really off of Linder its more off of
Victory its more off of Victory or the freeway there, I guess its just a .highway it
seems like a freeway at times. But and I don't even think it would be the rural
clustering idea is you know so that you can go urban when we are out there. I
think there are still possibilities but its just not, we can't grow in every area of our
city and that is the area that has been the last priority just because of the
proximity of that sewer line and going underneath the freeway and a lot of the
modeling that I think that the engineering department has already discussed. But
we are a long way from serving that area.
Bird: Mr. Mayor
Corrie: Mr. Bird.
Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting
March 11, 2003
Page 22 of 25
Bird: I don't know if its three to one or not but I agree with councilman Nary. If
we are not one to service it or anything lets get it out of our impact area. Let
them bring Boise water in and put them in a good deal and let him be able to turn
his investment over and in this economy anything that will help I'm for, the
economy. So I'm like Bill if we don't want to service it and I know that is the trunk
line that is the last one to be put out. Were probably 10 to 12 years from having
it out there. And we can't ask some person to sit on the ground that long. We
can't do that so I'm for letting them take it out of the impact area if we can't
service it.
Corrie: Okay. With that being sent Clint if we need further discussion we can do
it later on. I've got 30 minutes more of things here so we can get back together
and keep in touch of the quirks and that and let you know how we are doing here.
It doesn't sound good from this point.
Boyle: Okay. Thanks.
6. Discussion of ACRD Road Widening Franklin Road Project /ROW
Purchase Agreement:
Corrie: I would like to with Council's permission to discuss the ACHD road
widening at Franklin Road and the project right of way purchase agreement since
that is on the consent agenda. I'd like the council to hear that so if they have any
questions after they can pull it off the consent agenda. Elroy.
Huff: Mayor and Council I appreciate being able to be here. I have some
handouts for you on this project. I met with the consultant with this road widening
project. On that top page the blue area is the area that is affected by the road
widening project. Primarily on the about middle of the page you can see the big
square there that's the Meridian Chamber of Commerce. That area from just
above there where the street goes into Storey Park back down to the corner at
first street on that side is the area affected. The proposed area is approximately
17, 300 square feet and it does come into a little ways into the existing park land.
And the second page it shows the area of take and the estimated costs involved
in that based on eight dollars seventy five cents a square foot. Also met with the
consultant on that issue concerning landscape restoration and things along there
so we didn't have anything unfinished when that project went to work so when we
were all done it would look good. We are giving up a little bit on page three if you
look at the top picture you can see in the right corner right lower corner there is a
sidewalk right there by that power pole. That orange or red line above that is
really straight above that corner of the sidewalk. Sidewalk will continue down
and go right to that red line is back of sidewalk. The red line on the far left is the
permanent easement. There is a lot of work to be done there quite a bit of that
area is area that was already there in a right of way developed on the right side
of that fence as you look at it. The bottom picture basically shows the same thing