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HomeMy WebLinkAbout95Dec18 Golf Course Committee MinsGOLF COURSE CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE DECEMBER 18, 1995 MEMBERS PRESENT: Walt Morrow, Patsy Fedrizzi, John Ewing, Wally Loven: Morrow: We are going to open our meeting for December 18, 1995 for the Golf Course Construction Committee. The first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes from the December 7th meeting, are there any additions or corrections to those minutes? Fedrizzi: Walt, we all just received them moments ago and I hope that next time we can get them at least a day or so ahead of time because we started our meeting when we got here. Morrow: I understand, the issue was that they (inaudible) they were going to try and call when they got them done (inaudible). Fedrizzi: Well, it iS tough for everybody to get here to pick them up. Morrow: That is true and I reviewed them, they are pretty representative. Iguess the major issue that I want to make is this recording method there are a lot of inaudible within the minutes because she simply wasn't able to hear what was going on or it was garbled. So my suggestion is that when each of us is speaking, speak to each other as well as the tape recorder and see if we can't make it work a little better this time. If we don't then we will switch how we are taping it. So, I think what we will do then we will defer approving these minutes until our next meeting and then each of you will have a chance to read both the minutes and we will approve both at the same time. The next issue is the financial report that would be Patsy in terms of change in financial conditions since our last meeting. Fedrizzi: Okay, I received a print out from the City which I don't totally understand. It seems like there is some mingling of some that is from the golf course account, the City Council approved (inaudible). This one has a couple of line items in here that I don't recognize and can't balance too. Also, when they were given to me it was like year end September, (inaudible). So anyway, I am going to have to do some research with Janice and double check all of these figures. My figures that I have kept personally I can give you those. So, income to date, our trade outs, we have two of those to the value of $20,000. bonations in cash to date is $16,603, Expenses to date $949.24, Commissions paid to date $1647.30 for a balance of $14,06.46. There are no outstanding expenses at this time but once we go to press with these passes then I don't know what that is going to cost. Outstanding commissions due are $2,012.50 which would leave a balance in the account not taking into consideration the $20,000 in trade out but the cash is $11,993.96. Morrow: Okay, (inaudible) what I would like to see for our next week meeting report just have one (inaudible). Fedrizzi: I will tell you why I did not do that this time and I will certainly do-that next time. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 2 In fact I could (inaudible) I thought it would be on these minutes (inaudible). Would you still prefer to have it? Morrow: It is, we have to (inaudible) at this point in time if we want to ask questions we can ask questions (inaudible). Fedrizzi: Okay, you got it. Morrow: Any questions for Patsy in terms of this financial information. Ewing: Do you have anybody else that is just dangling that is hooked you just need to reel them in or pretty slow? Fedrizzi: No, if you want to talk about marketing at some point. Do you want to talk about that now? Marketing has basically, other than John doing some talking and I have made some phone calls to some other contractors, business owners, some have just put us on hold and wait and see attitude. So, how many times can you call back. Some of them are not returning my calls. So, what I would like to do after the first of the year assuming that we are going to have support from the new City Council and everything is to run an ad in the Newspaper. That is something that I would have done in the beginning except for we have the Statesman and our little paper both writing big articles negative, it is a little hard to combat that with an ad. If you guys disagree I want your input. I want your input on any of that marketing. It has been a real difficult marketing situation. Morrow: I think the thing is (inaudible) I think what the issue would be is that elections are over, everything that everybody had to gain in terms of elections has been utilized. Very candidly this issue was used as a campaign issue. In all honesty in terms of our City Council meeting since the night of the election there hasn't been a reporter at our meetings except last Tuesday there was a reporter there interestingly enough that stayed the whole time. Very candidly I think the reason the man was there from the Valley Times was further to find the issue of why we are looking to publish our legal notices with another newspaper. It was also the first time I have seen the man stay the entire meeting. So I think the issue is we are really slow now because of the time of the year, the holidays and people have other things on their minds. I think after the first of the year (inaudible) and the issue will go away unless there is some political mileage somewhere along the way I am not aware of. Very candidly I wasn't' aware of the political mileage that would be derived from this issue from the very beginning. Clearly (inaudible) for the benefit of (inaudible). So that time is over and we will press onto other things. So I think that advertising and other issues once people see that the thing is becoming a reality and pressing ahead has a tendency to diminish (inaudible). I think at least 3 of the 4 Councilman support it. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 3 Fedrizzi: One thing I was going to share with is in the beginning when Grant and I worked this all out with the commissions and the expenses is it was 10% on the commissions for the total pay and also expenses would be 2%, we try to keep it within that 2% figure of the gross {inaudible). So, we are right in there but we might when we start doing some of these other like doing the passes, maybe we want to consider what we want to do about that. Morrow: The other thoughts in terms of marketing, Wally? Loven: I don't think so. Morrow: John? Ewing: No, I don't, I give that a lot of thought too and I can't come up with anything. I am, and I don't mean this directly, but, and I know you won't take it, but I really thought that the window between the end of the year, the end of election and all of that garbage that was going on and the end of the year would be the time to start picking up this money. That is usually when people seem like they are a little, they are giving mood around Christmas. So, and again, I know that you certainly put the effort out. I am disappointed that we haven't been able to get more than that. Fedrizzi: It is possible that some checks could start showing up from some of the calls that we have made because what I have heard repeatedly from corporations is and businesses is let me talk to my accountant. Ewing: Well, we'll keep our fingers crossed. Fedrizzi: After the first of the year I can place an ad, we lost our momentum. My normal thing would have been take right off from our July kick off and with our mass mailing and start getting out and calling on service clubs and so forth. That is almost impossible to do. Loven: There has been some type of thoughts amongst my clientele as to what will happen. (Inaudible) consequently some of them are really quite reluctant (inaudible). They still want to kind- of wait and see. Morrow: One of the things you have to understand is the political realities of (inaudible) by and large, and the issue is that we will probably see us as a Council return to a (inaudible) for the necessary functions (inaudible). Now, having said that, that position can be an awful lot (inaudible) certainly that is not an issue that you tell somebody in the general public (inaudible) wait and see attitude. I suppose if it was me making the investment I say rightfully so because (inaudible). I have to say that amongst us on the Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 4 committee we probably have more confidence that this thing is going to work and more resolve. I still think that once you begin to see activity a lot of these things will go (inaudible). Fedrizzi: I have contacted a number of the media, newspaper and like a positive we have got some things going, go out and see Wally and I forewarned Wally and not one person has followed up on that to my knowledge. Is that correct, have any of them come to talk to you? Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: Well, out of all the calls I made I don't believe that somebody didn't go out there and pick up on the positive. Look at the activity that is going on out there and it just didn't happen. That is why ((inaudible) as well. Now, according to Grant, his feelings, he is not here to speak for himself, he is thinking this is basically going to be a done deal about March. So I don't know what this group is thinking, what we don't have by March in dollars Morrow: Well, I think very candidly where we begin to get it is somewhere around. March (inaudible) because we have to forward with construction. I am determined to see this thing brought to a conclusion this year and in the ground and grass growing. I don't think John and I (inaudible) for very long. Our natural inclination is we have the project let's move forward and get her done and on down the road to the next project. So, where I see a cut off date not much longer than that because conceivably (inaudible) we could be back under construction the middle of March first of April and (inaudible)., Fedrizzi: So I would like to ask the Committee to be thinking from this meeting to the next meeting, you are talking about advertising and so forth. How long are we going to be offering when we do our ad lifetime memberships, corporate memberships. There has to be a stopping point, there has to be, it is like, and I think it was Grant and I talking that having the passes start in 1997 is like, I was curious why you would even want to wait two years to have access to the work (inaudible) to be able to use it right away. So that was part of our thinking, there has to be a reward and there has to be some excitement and they can't be opened up again some time in the future for oh we were just kidding now we are going to do lifetime memberships again. Lovan: There has to be a cut off date. Morrow: The way I see this issue, the way that we approach this is that we have a cut off data and that is the date period. We design the golf course and and build what we have funds for. These (inaudible) step forward and press on get the benefit of the risk and get rewarded for that. Those that don't that is too bad they all ,become cash payers. The issue Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 5 is then what we do is that we make improvements to the golf course as best we .can (inaudible) in terms of them putting money in (inaudible) part of it would be from my perspective if we start the (inaudible) as I see it to the City gets reinvested in the golf course because we are making the golf course a thing of I guess scenic beauty for the lack of a better term. Ewing: Yes, an asset to the City. Morrow: I don't have a problem doing what we are doing, I can divorce the amenity from the operator whoever that might be. Apparently that seems to be a real rare concept amongst other folks because the issue really is that it is the City right or wrong we have got and we are going to take it (inaudible). I think you have to have dates for all of that, it is kind of like you want to play you pay if you don't go snivel about it later. Ewing: I think we should try, I agree with what you are saying, where we can set a budget. I think on our thinking of tha# we want, and it is really second guessing what the weather is going to do, but try and give as much time as possible. I keep thinking things are going to turn around for Patsy and it is just going to flood in. But, I do agree, we have to put a stop time on it where we can set the budget and go after it. Patsy: You have to keep it out there because otherwise people just think it is a dead issue. That is why it would be timely that after the first of the year we get an ad out soon. But it is positively moving ahead, we have not had anything come out in the press. Everything is heresy. Morrow: Well you know the other thing that we might do and it (inaudible) we could set a budget based on what we are going to do and take and have that budget in place and the construction plan in place on March 15 and then we could gamble a little bit and say okay at this point we have this much money we think we can raise another $40,000 in terms of corporate lifetimes so let's design it for that $40,000 (inaudible) cut some off because we don't get it we only get part of it then we can cut off and (inaudible) drop off while we leave that open. Ewing: And I think that is a good-idea. I guess I agree with you that we have to have a cut off the thing that concerns me is I thought that we would have two hot times and we are almost out of the one hot time. I think it is going to be hard to get anybody excited about this even if they are golfers until we start getting that good weather again. It gets to be a real thing again and they are out there and they are going. That is the thing that I thought about cutting if off too early. I do not want to go back on my other comment, agree that some time we have to stop and pick a budget. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 6 Fedrizzi: A lot of people would come forward when the golf course is there and they can see it is going to happen and then it is (inaudible). Then is that going to be allowed and that is the question that we don't want to make ourselves look like foots because if that is going to be opened up for a later date whether it is to do the clubhouse or whatever I think we really need to look at that carefully. Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: I believe that too, but you know the other thing that we have run into and as a marketing person I learned long ago you are not supposed to be constantly making excuses, the reality is that a tot of these companies are laying off and merging and that I why I am hearing all the time I don't even know if I have a job after the first of the year. It is endless, especially in the banking industry and here in Meridian the people we are talking to right here in City Hall I don't even know if I am going to have a job. Ewing: One of the things that we are talking about marketing this that I can see would really help Patsy is your comment this has been a political issue, has been a very hard thing a hurdle to jump. Now that we are past that it seems like the biggest struggle I thought you had is that with it being a political issue it has torn the City kind of apart on their feelings. I understand, one person I talked to says that the Chamber does want it but yet they don't want it. Depending on who you talk to, how do you get the City back into the role this is for the City? When I say the City I don't mean the City Council I mean the business people of the City. Have I had a misconception has the Chamber ever been for the golf course, any part of it, I don't know that. I guess the question I keep trying to answer is in my own mind is how do we get the Chamber backing. Maybe asking for the $10,000 deal is too much but all business can pick up $500 or a $1000 and it all adds up. Fedrizzi: There is only one lending institution (inaudible) Farmers and Merchants gave us $500. Ewing: I think and I hope this can come in the (inaudible) I think from my standpoint outside of the City just on this committee that is ridiculous. The City I understand does all of their business with that bank. Morrow: We spread it amongst all the banks. Ewing: But the biggest part with them. Morrow: We do a lot with Farmers and Merchants we do a lot with West One. Ewing: I am telling you West One gives most people more than that for a Christmas Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 7 present when you do a lot of business with them. Fedrizzi: (Inaudible) Ewing: I am sorry, but I was shocked and I shouldn't be and (inaudible) because thank you for the $500 but I expect the City of Meridian to have more support for things like this. Lovan: I am going to ask you this John, you have been around this City all your life, I have been around the City most of my life, every thing that we have ever (inaudible) has been this way. You think back, it took us 20 years to build the swimming pool out there. Ewing: Well that is a good point, it was 20 years because it was all my growing u'p life every year we were going to have a swimming pool and we finally got one when I was too old to want to go. But anyway, I am getting off the subject, how do we get the City to back us on this. Is it a losing battle. I guess I am saying this more for Patsy, I feel bad about the uphill climb that she has had on this. I bring that up if anybody has any suggestions I don't know the answer to it. Morrow: I don't know that I have any suggestions, (inaudible) I think the issue here is that the recent election was (inaudible) I guess what we had endeavored to do with Grant and the Council was recognized that it is a City of 22,000 a community of 9,000. Our hope was to take steps to make it a community of 22,000 to 50,000 which is what we are planning for and we meet the fourth Tuesday of Each month (inaudible). The long and the short of it is that this has been very divisive, I don't know that we overcome this as a community. I don't know that we will ever be a community. We will be a City, there is no doubt about that. My personal observation is I have never seen anything so distasteful in my entire life that those would drive a wedge in the community for personal gain or whatever. Whether it heals itself I don't know. I think what we do is in my mind I have said to myself that there is not a lot that I .can do about that. We can take this issue and move forward and show that we have a can do City, a can do attitude and hopefully we can get past this and on to something else. With respect to the Chamber, I have to tell you very candidly if it wasn't for the Chamber. in 1978 we wouldn't have this problem today because Don Storey was adamantly opposed to the City taking the golf course. Interestingly enough, the same supporters that were big supporters of the Chamber we also on the City Council and so essentially this was a deal that the Chamber wanted and the City government didn't necessarily want but took. Sometime between then and now some of those things have reversed themselves. I don't think that we can worry about that. I think that what we have to do is take our task, move forward. If nothing else say we did it, we got the project done and go on out there. I have made up my mind that I am not going to worry about it any longer because it is not something that we can do by verbal or news reports (inaudible) by showing and hey we can accomplish this and this is what we decided to do and we Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 8 want it. If the community comes behind and supports and so on that is great. If they don't we have the project accomplished. I think part of creating a community is that you also have to see increasing memberships in organizations like the Chamber, the Optimists, the Rotary Clubs, the Soroptomists and all those other organizations. Showing a bunch of new people, new volunteers panning (inaudible) and thus far not seeing much of them. But in fairness to the new people that are moving here when we first move into a place you are concerned about fencing and landscaping and getting the kids into school and a whole bunch of other things. You don't really become active outside of that stuff for a couple of years. I am not sure that with young people and young families that you really don't become active until those kids are at least junior high and high school age. So maybe we won't see this thing (inaudible) community until sometime down the road. As I view that that is fine at least we created the seeds for that to happen by completing our project. So that is kind of how I see it. Lovan: One little thing (inaudible) I am really involved in this thing, I got involved in this thing in 1978 because Meridian needed a golf course. Every growing community needs recreation amenities. The City at that time did not want to take on this course and in the end in order to have this course, have the public golf course I formed this little corporation (inaudible) golf courses at that time did not (inaudible) I am not so sure that this nine holes have ever made money. I certainly do not make a whole lot of wages off of it. Everything that I have earned out there, I won't say everything but most everything I earn out there goes back into the course. The other nine holes we are talking now that it cannot be finished (inaudible). This nine holes (inaudible) we have another $3b0,000 in updating the sprinkler heads. (Inaudible} ongoing thing. What has happened; the last six months was not of my doing, it was not of my choosing. We do have a new Mayor, the new Mayor and I do not see eye to eye together. I as an employer have always said to my employees you may not like the man that works next to you but if you want to work here you have to communicate. If you can't communicate then you are no good to me. I and the new Mayor will communicate, I don't have to go to bed with him, I don't have to do anything with him. But over the next four years we will have to communicate on occasions. Fedrizzi: Have you communicated (inaudible). Ewing: I think I want to come back to my comment and we got off, really what I was asking was is excuse me, if any of us can come up with something to help Patsy. Maybe it can't be done but that is the point I was trying to make. If we can even get two or three businesses to turn around and give us some money. It is more fun to do things when you have more money. That was the point I was making. Morrow: To bring this tp an end what we will do is between now and our next meeting which will be fairly early in January we'll think through in terms of the concept of the cut Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 9 off date for plans. The design segments so that we can (inaudible). We will also think in terms of a long term cut of date for the corporate stuff. Then collectively as a committee we will decide what those dates might be. Next thing is we is that we talked about the minutes, the financial report, the passes is one of the issues. We have copies of these. I personally like where the logo for each company is also on the pass. I think that is a nice touch. I think the back is fine from my perspective, does anybody have any problems with the layout of these? Lovan: I think they look very nice. Fedrizzi: Would you like me to address the contract at this given time that goes along this? I talked to Wayne right after our last meeting and we discussed that we needed to have these and wanted to have these and wanted to have them before the end of the year. He was quite adamant about, we were in agreement I believe, I haven't read the minutes. But that they should go past the City Council to protect all the players. So, he was going to have that put together for tomorrow evening. I did call and remind him today, he had forgotten about it. He said he would make every effort to have that to the City Council. Morrow: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: If you feel like you want to touch base with him (inaudible). What I gave him in my mind was real clear cut and all he really needed to was add whatever legal comments on here which basically was what you put on the back of here (inaudible) so it seemed pretty clear cut to me. So I told him we wanted it one page. But anyway, that should be something thet hopefully you guys will discuss and if you want these packets together before the end of the week then all of those three things need to be done. You guys need to decide on when the dates start. If there are dates on yours, how many you get printed and get that approved by the City Council. Morrow: So what you are asking the City Council tomorrow night is to review the contract (inaudible) do you also want them to review and approve the style of the passes? Fedrizzi: If you think that is necessary, you have your copies there. Morrow: What was the third issue? Fedrizzi: That these gentlemen have to make this their decisions. Morrow: Well the issues would be then when the passes start. Fedrizzi: Yes, when the passes start and then they would run consecutively for 20 years. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 10 Morrow: What is the feel of the committee as to when they ought to start? Ewing: I think they should start the first of the year. Morrow: Of 1997 or 1996? Ewing: 1996 Morrow: Patsy? Fedrizzi: That is what I think. Morrow: Wally? Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: Okay good, I will take care of those three issues before the Council and that will cover that. Anything else? Lovan: (Inaudible) I think they all should be numbered per year, I think (inaudible). Fedrizzi: Yes per year, they will all be numbered Morrow: Like it is here. Fedrizzi: Yes, and in their packets they will get (inaudible) they will get those all pre-signed are you going to sign the originals? or are you going to sit and sign 6,000? Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: You will, okay, he will, they won't because they will sign them when they hand them out. Can I get you to go over to Modern Printers at your earliest and go ahead and sign those. Morrow: Okay, anything else with respect to passes? Nothing, okay let's move on to the next item on the agenda is the construction status report which is you Wally. Have we had any construction go on since our last meeting? Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: Then nothing else because of weather. The next issue is the sprinkler system Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 11 that we talked about. Anything further on that? My point there was whether we were going to do (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: And you were beginning to write specs for the contracts? I think what I would like to do is have you and John work on those specs and John you write the bid documents so we (inaudible). Ewing: Okay, t am going to need a lot of help from you Wally because I have mentioned before you forgot more about what a golf course is supposed to be than I will ever know. So, you want us to start right now and hopefully in the near future have a set of specs for every division that we are going to do. Morrow: What we will do is we will give that to Wayne Crookston to craft up into a formal bid proposal. Ewing: Okay, I guess we need to sit down and figure out how many different things. We kind of did that last time, it was just kind of gobbled up, I haven't read the minutes. Okay, we can work on that. I will have to pick a time and get with you and I will do that. Morrow: Part of my job, my assignment last time was to meet with Harold Hudson which I did and talk about pumps. Harold indicates that (inaudible) his concern was that there was enough of an incoming reservoir so that the three pumps didn't (inaudible). I guess you might want to check that out to see that there is enough water coming in between the 3 pumps (inaudible). Lovan: That will have to be overhauled and enlarged. The water over there will have to filtered as it comes in otherwise we plug up sprinkler heads (inaudible) the pump house will have to be enlarged. So we will have a pumping station and (inaudible). The (inaudible) on the outside of the building now that we can bring in another incoming water line. I can see the whole grade expense of doing this. Ewing: Is that what, I think what you asked is do you have enough water. Morrow: No, reservoir space, Harold Ewing: Reservoir space being in the catch basin or in the lake? Morrow: No, right in the catch basin in that area, his concern was that he said that there was physically enough space. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 12 Ewing: But we could literally suck it dry. Morrow: (Inaudible) I have no idea, I haven't seen it I have to ask the question. Lovan: That should (inaudible) but we won't have to add onto the pump house. Morrow: That is something that you and John could research and kind of write the specs as to what as to what we need there. I guess my point is a preliminary look at (inaudible) so we get a feel for what has to be done there. So for our next meeting we will have some kid of a feel for the direction we are started to head in because at our next meeting we should start generating enough information (inaudible) for what it is we have to do at a minimum which would have some bearing on how we move forward with the dates that we set out for funds. So these things should start coming toge#her so that by the first part or the middle of February we have a really good feel for the direction we are going and what we are going to begin to see is the golf course (inaudible). Lovan: By using that existing pump house in there (inaudible) that power extension would be quite an expensive item (inaudible) all we have to do (inaudible). Ewing: What 1 thought you had asked and I got a little bit confused but it does bring up a question, will you have enough capacity coming in that, that pond only gets fed from now from the one ditch, it always appears that that water is running through there fast at all and it keeps up with hit. But by adding nine more holes there will still be, I know there is enough capacity but will it regain coming through that ditch fast enough for the next nine irrigation? Lovan: We have continuous water that flows through the pond all the time. Ewing: Okay Lovan: The only thing we are going to have to face is a well. Our small well over there only supplies about 220 gallons per minute and we need about double that. Morrow: What does the small well do? I know it is 220 gallons per minute, but what is the water used for? Lovan: It is used for irrigation after you (inaudible) before and after the ditch goes out. Morrow: What Size is the well? Lovan: Eight inch casing and we can increase it a little bit by putting in a little larger pump, Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 13 would only be another 2 1 /2 horse. We might be able to put in valves there and increase it some. We do have a well on the new part of the golf course over by the back of the property, over by the old building up on Black Cat. There is a well right by the new club house or where the new club house will be. Maybe we can make some exchanges with Brighton Industry but that would all have to be negotiated. Morrow: So there are actually 2 more wells on the property? Lovan: There are 3 more wells on the Brighton property. Two of them are in the southwest corner of the Brighton property on Blackcat Road. One of them belongs to the City or will. Morrow: Do we know anything about the specs of these wells are they typically residential farm wells? Lovan: One of them is a typical residential (inaudible) about 220 to 250 gallons per minute. But it does need to run into our existing pond. Morrow: Do you know for example what is the (inaudible) Lovan: It is a 5 horse. Morrow: With the new systems for the entire 18 you are going to need a total of around 440 gallons per minute? Does that mean that you water the golf course all at the same time or could you get by with a lesser amount by sequencing the water? I don't know how you do that. Lovan: No, we water every evening with our sprinkler heads (inaudible) set the timers on different times. Right now we use in the Fall period we water about 10 hours a day at night. Morrow: So the long and the short of it is you need more water. Lovan: The long and the short of it is we have to have more water. It would be possible to perhaps even dig our exis#ing well deeper it is very shallow. Morrow: Well, I think what we want to do is (inaudible) and see what happens I will take care of that. Alright anything else with the pump stuff or well stuff? Ewing: Excuse me, when we are going through that, one of the biggest expenses of using those other wells is going to be getting the water back to the storage to the lake. That is something I wanted to say to remind me that we should be asking those sprinkler guys if Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 14 we can utilize those main lines to irrigate and then utilize them when it is off running water back. I know they have systems like that. It is a common thing now to have one line be a supply line going to, I bet it works that way on the water tank right here. The same line fills it up that empties it. I guess what I am saying is that is something (End of Tape) I think we should still look, because a City system, we just got done with Star water tank and it works that way, It is pressurized all the time, but at night on (inaudible) the well fills the tank, the high uses the water reverses in that line up on the hill and the pressure comes down. We can talk about that. I guess I brought it up only where you reminded where I said that and then you can tell me later if I am (inaudible). Morrow: The thing of it is, the point of having a brainstorming deal is (inaudible) we may find some sort of new technology that is not only better but less expensive than what we are thinking about. Ewing: We won't know that unless we ask the question. Lovan: Right now the only storage we have is that pond itself. Ewing: That is right, we need to get the water from, if Walt finds out that we can use these other wells and they serve our purpose and we can use them we have to find a reasonable way, the most reasonable way possible to get the water back to the storage. Lovan: The only time we use these wells would be after the irrigation water goes out or before it comes back in. Now this 220 gallons per minute feeds right into the pond itself over a period of 24 hours we build up a reservoir that we can use for the 10 hours which (inaudible). Ewing: If that is the case why are we going to the other wells? Lovan: Well, because we only have enough now to do nine holes, we are going to have another nine holes go in so we need twice as much. Morrow: So I think maybe the point is that maybe John's point is real valid here, if we can reverse the flow in the lines (inaudible) what we do is all of the sudden we are filling the lake theoretically much faster. Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: The one well that we have got, but we are suggesting is that maybe the other three wells, am I misunderstanding? Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 15 Lovan: You have to understand the two wells Brighton industry is going to use probably for irrigation for their residential lots so those will not be available to the City. The City owns the existing well and they inherited another well on the City property. Morrow: Let me find out about what we can do with those wells, we will look at the technical details after we found that out. Ewing: Wally, these are things though that I think you and I are going to write a set of specs which I don't know how far we can go on a set of specs. We need to identify the things we need to do there. It sounds to me like maybe one of the line items should be possibly improving the well or digging another well and if we do that we need to put in -the power and pumps and everything. These are things that I think as a committee we cannot have jump up and bite us when we are all the sudden planting grass and we find out it is all going to die next month because we don't have water. Lovan: Brighton industry is quite aware of the problem here. It has come up several times in our meetings. Morrow: Let me get a handle on that and find out where we are at and I will get the information to the committee. (Inaudible) The last item we had, we had green specs, we had a copy last week of some preliminary stuff. Wally you were going to get some more information on that as to how to put those specs together. From this meeting (inaudible) Lovan: I have done some work on them, I still don't have it done. Mainly I guess because of my procrastination. I still feel that we need to do rock or gravel under ten inches of sand. Morrow: So what we have to do is be able to forecast cost (inaudible) figure out the size of each green (inaudible). Lovan: I have already figured that 23 yards of gravel per green and 220 yards of sand per green. Twenty-three yards of gravel is about $7 of $8 per yard. Sand (inaudible) I would want to look at it first. Ewing: I think Wally the problem that I can see, I think the work you have done is good but we can't write a spec on Charlie's gravel or Charlie's sand and or, I don't know unless we want it to be a performance and I don't know how we are really going to write this we need to work on it. We need to give them the quantities? Lovan: We need to give them the quantities and what we want. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 16 Ewing: So are you going to give them not only the quantities of sand but you are gong to tell them how many square feet each one is going to be. Lovan: How many square yards we are going to need. Ewing: How many square feet of greens we have got, it is all relevant to how many yards of sand. My opinion of writing a spec like that is what you are basically doing is if you tell them it is going to take 23 yards of sand and the City is always grant about doing this on engineering projects is if it runs one wheel barrow over you have opened the door wide open to have them charge you more. If you are working to a budget that seems to be tough, to me I think that if making a spec saying this green is going to have. I think Cloverdale Nursery was bidding that at 6500 square feet or something like that. I don't remember. Lovan: At first we figured 6000 square feet I think we did figure 6500. Ewing: If we take a cut through that and write a spec and give them a detail showing everything you want. if they over, the problem you run into with this is they over estimate they do something different, they cover up, they run over on yardage. They are going to run back to whoever, whoever signed the check and say I have got my 23 yards in there and you are still too low. If you want more, I guess what I am saying is we need to give this some thought on how to write this spec and when you are thinking about it, think about that it is going to go out to bid to everyone that wishes to bid it. So we have to make it very clear to them and try to leave no loop holes that is going to come back and get us on the fact that just because we are writing this spec. I am going to speak on this for contractors they are experts on finding that loophole. I am the only one that can say that, no Walt can to but he won't so I will. Lovan: In order to address your problem the specs should be to inches of sand over 2 inches of gravel with drain pipe six inches wide. Ewing:, Get in that mind set because you need to get in that mind set to help me because I don't know. I am going to try and keep you in and out of the loopholes and there is no guarantees of that. I am going to try and keep and you are going to tell me what you really want done. Morrow: Okay that is an issue that will be ongoing from now until our next meeting. Are there any other issues that you want to bring? Lovan: Grass, I have checked on grass. I have paid my money just a little bit, last time I mentioned Manhattan two, since that time I have found out that Manhattan two has not Golf Course construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 17 turned out near as good as they said it would. The new concept in planting golf courses is to use three different varieties. They have some that will stay green in June it will brown in July and they have another on that will stay green in July and go (inaudible) and so on so you have a much better colored fairway. I am still sold on rye grass because the disease is not there that you find in the bluegrasses. It would take approximately 9000 pounds of grass seed to do the golf course. I have one low bid of not bid but estimate of $.75 a pound. The (inaudible) is available and all of this grass will be available when we want it. The mint grass is somewhere between $6.50 and $8.00 per pound. In fact one outfit said he had 450 pounds. The rate of application there is 1 pound per thousand square feet of green. Morrow: Any questions with respect to grass? Ewing: Again, t hate to pound on this Wally but we have got to as a committee decide how we are going to do this, are we writing a spec that we are going to put this under a contract, if so I don't know that we can dictate to our subcontractors that we pick where they are going to get the seed. Or as the committee are we going to decide to put this out fqr bid with furnishing the seed and then if that is the case are we going to put this spec out you are talking to more than one seed company. Again I keep pounding on this because when I sit down you again I am going to try and help and then have the committee help fix what I have screwed up on good clean specs so when we go to bid there is no question. When I start hearing this I can see a lot of confusion if we don't get that straightened out. Lovan: At this point in time John I guess what I am doing is coming (inaudible) lowest price that I can find on the market. (inaudible) all we have to do is put in the spec the kind of grass that we want. Morrow: I think actually there is a duel purpose here. One is that we are trying to get some prices so that ball park in our heads we can begin to generate what the overall cost is going to be. The second issue we are dealing with is trying to create the specs. I guess maybe write the specs and the decision is do we furnish the grass seed because we can buy it less expensive than a sub can buy it and do it in that manner and then have it labor only or do we make them responsible for labor and materials thereby guaranteeing they are not going to seed to heavily or to lightly. So, I think those are questions that we want to be thinking about before we put together the specs. Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: Those are all questions that I want you to be thinking about when you write these things. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 18 Lovan: (Inaudible) $60 and that seems to be a standard price. (Inaudible) Morrow: For an acre? Lovan: For an acre. Morrow: Does he do it by the hour or the acre? Lovan: We have hired him by the acre. Morrow: We may want to question that also and take a look at (inaudible) some will be by the hour, some will be by the acre. We will find out which way it works best for us. I guess if it is by the acre you don'# worry about guys (inaudible)if it is by the hour maybe you exempt (inaudible) and you call out for only actual seeding time. Lovan: It turned out very close. Morrow: Those are questions we need to ask Ewing: I think that the question I would have on that when it comes time is how well are we managing the work out there. If we are still struggling along and Wally is real busy and we don't have anybody full time I am always in favor of them going by the acre or by the firm price. The only way by the hour works in my opinion is when you have somebody there tracking them. So that has to be a consideration when that comes up I would think. Morrow: Okay, any other issues that you want to bring up John? Ewing: No, I don't believe so. Morrow: Patsy? Fedrizzi: No Morrow: Let's set our next meeting date. Ewing: I will make another comment, I think that we have go# a lot of work to do between now and the next meeting and I think that this was not a good one for Bert to miss. We will just give him a job since he is not here. Morrow: What day do you want, is Monday good, do you want to stick with Mondays? Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 19 Fedrizzi: I think Mondays are great. Morrow: How about the 15th, that would be almost 30 days from now. We have City Hall to ourself because I think that is a closed holiday far City Council fqr City people, governmental all of us in the private sector, that is Martin Luther King Day, all of us in the private sector (inaudible). Ewing: The 15th is fine for me, I like sliding down farther because I think Wally and I have a lot of work to do to even be half prepared. Lovan: I am going to be gone quite a lot of that time too John. Fedrizzi: I would rather go to the 8th, that is three weeks. Morrow: (Inaudible) the thing that I was thinking about the 15th is (inaudible) under department reports on the City Council on the 16th I am in pretty decent shape. If I don't need to do anything with the City Council it doesn't matter. Lovan: I may or may not be back for the 15th. Fedrizzi: When are you leaving? Lovan: After Christmas. Morrow: Do you want to go to the 22nd then is that a better deal? Ewing: I tell you, I would hate to show up to a meeting without what I was supposed to do done, but then sometimes when you get on a roll like this. Lovan: How about the 18th that is a Thursday. Morrow: The 18th is fine with me also. Ewing: The only thing is it doesn't give a chance to bring anything up to the City Council. Morrow: What we will do is forgo that because my next turnaround with the- City Council is on the 6th. So we are in pretty decent shape there, so do you want to go with the 18th then? Ewing: That is fine with me. Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 20 Morrow: is that okay with you Patsy? Fedrizzi: Yes Morrow: Here at 4:00. Ewing: Wally, do you think it would be reasonable between this week and I am going to be gone the rest of the week but do you think it would be reasonable to take and put, write down greens if you think 6000 square feet is enough just long hand write 6000 square feet, 10 inches of sand, whatever. The only thing I found out about the greens, I will jump back to that real quick is I talked to a couple of people who have done it and the one thing they have said the most important thing that you can play around with different grass, you can play around with different this and that is the bottom line that I basically came down with is you need to have drainage, positive drainage and then you can make it, you can do your improvements. We had talked about, Cloverdale didn't have any drainage in there and basically the thing that I got from the other people I talked to is no matter what you do get drainage. Morrow: The first nine don't have drainage? Lovan: The first nine have drainage it just doesn't have any place to go. Morrow: Oh, that is right. Okay if there is nothing further. Ewing: Wally, can you get me started and then I will just take your line items and try to get it in some kind of form. Let me ask you this (inaudible) can we, there has got to be specs for golf courses floating around. Morrow: The other thing sis we are going to sit down and generate that we want 6000 square feet of green space and we want 10 inches of 1 inch rock and 2 inches of 30 grit sand and 4 inches of top soil what else can you generate in terms of specs. Lovan: You come see me John. Ewing: Well, I guess what I am concerned about is I am leaving Wednesday morning and you are leaving right after Christmas and I don't want to do it on Christmas day and I know you don't either. Lovan: Have you got a couple hours tomorrow? Ewing: I will make an hour, you are going to be at the golf course? I will be there, I will see Golf Course Construction Committee December 18, 1995 Page 21 you tomorrow. Morrow: Okay, meeting over, meeting adjourned. MEETING ADJOURNED