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HomeMy WebLinkAbout96Mar04 Golf Course Committee MinsGOLF COURSE CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE MARCH 4, 1996 MEMBERS PRESENT: Walt Morrow, Patsy Fedrizzi, John Ewing, Wally Lovan, Grant Kingsford: Morrow: The first item on the agenda will be Patsy's report with respect to finances and marketing. Fedrizzi: Okay, here are the financial reports, here is a hand out. We have had no activity in the month of February since our last meeting other than a $25.00 check that was received from the Larson's which is their last payment of 6, they have been paying $25.00 a month so they would be contributing $150. The anticipated expenses as you can see would be Statesman advertising and I am owed a very minor amount of a commission just a few dollars so that is not reflected on there. Morrow: My question with respect to (inaudible) they are donating $150 and this is their last payment, will we send them a thank you card or something. Fedrizzi: Yes, I have sent them a thank you card. (Inaudible) Morrow: I stand corrected we are meeting on the 4th at 4:30. Alright, questions for Patsy? John? Wally? Mr. Mayor? Kingsford: This balance brought forward that reflects the debits to Charlie am I correct? Or is Charlie, did we not pay Charlie and Frank Sorrel has that been debited from this, this money we currently have in the account? Fedrizzi: This money does not have anything to do with those payments that were made. Apparently that is coming out Of your, the City Council funds that you approved for, this account the only thing that I am aware of because nothing has come to me and anything that comes in or out of the account I am supposed to have a copy of that or run it through myself unless they are going around (inaudible) that is why I thought they were coming out of the budget that the City was working. I did ask Janice last Thursday I think it was Wednesday or Thursday for a printout but they were having, they don't have a lot of people here and her dealing with the IRS so we did not have a print out. Kingsford: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be certainly an advantage if we could have a monthly break down of the total account included upon which (inaudible) no of it slips by is the expansion fees, I believe 9 starts, the foundations out there and (inaudible) money coming in (inaudible). I think we need the whole picture in the financial report and get that up to date. Fedrizzi: I think that is really important, when we talked last time there were some errors Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 2 in that and we found them they were coming out of the building, oh it was Shari Stiles account or something. So there were some things, if we had that print out every single month. Kingsford: There needs to be several line items and I was after Janice to get this accomplished and I never got the full report before I left office. We had $1900 from Dennis Marshall the lots that he sold initially, and Golf View, I never could get her pinned down just on how many went through escrow at $100 a pop from Paul White. I know that there was on the day that we broke ground four of us presented $1000 that should be in here. Fedrizzi: (Inaudible) Kingsford: It would be nice if we could get all of those things, certainly it would be hard as hell to stay in the budget (inaudible) if we don't know where we are at. Fedrizzi: I requested those to be separated to what is coming out of the City account and (Inaudible). Well not even from the Commission standpoint but so I can keep the records (inaudible). Kingsford: I agree with that but certainly the committee needs to have a whole picture. Morrow: I will take care of that. Ewing: If this reflects everything by them where is the (inaudible). _ Fedrizzi: This is a balance brought forward and the other was trade out and (inaudible). Kingsford: So we have had expenses out of the (inaudible) Fedrizzi: Yes, I just bring this forward every month, you would have to go back to the original one. If you would like this report to be to include everything, I would be happy to do that. Kingsford: I think that (inaudible) I am not as concerned but just to answer you question ten of those (inaudible) and then you have the expenses for printing and advertising and so forth. Fedrizzi: Most of that activity was from January and I have where we have cash that has come in at $16,603 and trade out at $20,000, (inaudible) printing and postage and all the brochures and (inaudible). This was up to date because we (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 3 Morrow: So what these print outs are is a reflection of the activity for the previous month. Fedrizzi: Hers is not, it goes from the beginning. Morrow: I know what hers would be, but the one you are giving us in terms of (inaudible) simply reflects the activity in the last month. Fedrizzi: Yes, in the last month assuming that I will have those. But I will be happy to do it differently if you want. Morrow: How do you feel about that, do you want to see the perhaps running totals on the sheets? And then the months activity on the same sheet. It might make a lot of sense Patsy to do it that way. Ewing: I think at least once to get everybody up to date. Fedrizzi: I can give you copies of all of mine next time, January, February and you will have it all. Morrow: Well either that or (inaudible) general account to date and (inaudible) Fedrizzi: I will give you something (inaudible) Morrow: Okay, any other questions for Patsy concerning that. So where we are going to be is next (inaudible) plus the last 30 days too. In the mean time what I will do is (inaudible) Janice covering all of these things from the City Council money to the donations by Dennis Marshall to Paul White and (inaudible) also give the amount of fees that have come from lot sales. Fedrizzi: Now, if we get that timely, than my report would be a matter of mine checking hers that really should be inclusive of everything. What I would really like to see is that since we are getting the minutes is that she type her report to come in on minutes so we can look at them before we get here and have surprises and (inaudible). Morrow: (Inaudible) we are meeting actually every three weeks we are, going to have some problems because she is on a monthly (inaudible) for that printout we wouldn't see (inaudible) we should continue meeting every two weeks probably over the next two months (inaudible) because the rest of this meeting (inaudible) based on our bid specs (inaudible) get those set in place then we will take those bids and make a formal presentation to the City Council as to which bids to acxept. And then award bids and press forward with construction. (Inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 4 Ewing: While we are on the financial part of this meeting did you ever get to talk to Charlie or did that ever get cleaned up? Morrow: Charlie and I have gone back and forth trying to talk to each other. We have not yet spoken to each other. I have (inaudible) the last $2000 check was in fact in Charlie's possession because I signed that check over three weeks. Kingsford: The check that I did sign, I finally got a hold of Charlie (inaudible) he saw by the date that I had in fact signed it (inaudible) I know he got that one. Morrow: So we are still working on it, I don't have a conclusive answer, but I have been working on it (inaudible) probably three times and have not yet gotten so speak to one another. So we are trying to work that (inaudible) to see that check (inaudible) because it was signed some time ago. Anything else in terms of financial? Let's press on to Lovan: I had an issue (inaudible) says that any time that he works on the golf course out there that 1 can use that as a tax write off. (Inaudible) because it is (inaudible) in other words he was out there he mowed leaves for three days and (inaudible) and he has roughly 8 hours out there for three days and (inaudible) Kingsford: I don't have any problem with that if you need an invoice to that effect (inaudible) I think from the standpoint of consulting. Morrow: I think the issue there there is that (inaudible) donation and accept that donation and (inaudible) any objections John? Let's press forward. Okay, where we are at now is grass seed. Fedrizzi: Can we go to marketing first to get that out of our hair. Morrow: Alright, I am sorry. Fedrizzi: Thaf is a budget issue too, is that what we are going to do is we are going to start marketing instead of or in addition to the life time for $5000 and corporate for $10,000 we are going to add $2500 for 25 passes per year for three years, correct? Hopefully that will attract some. Kingsford: I just say again (inaudible) Wally ought to sign off on Morrow: (Inaudible) as I see it whoever (inaudible) essentially (inaudible) I guess the argument is that (inaudible) is really valid of how we are going to (inaudible) that if I buy 100 of those passes a year that I don't have a side deal with Grant, Rich and John for each Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 5 of them to pay me for 25 of them and they go as my guest. Fedrizzi: Right (inaudible) Morrow: So I don't see that it trades off, I don't see that there is a difference is what I am saying. Kingsford: I don't know to me I would say that the marketing ought to probably be done but (inaudible) so that we don't get into four separate contracts we still just have those two original (inaudible). Fedrizzi: Is that really a problem because I think that is really going to hold us back because there are some people that don't have four friends end if they wanted to get together they couldn't because they couldn't get the others and we are not (inaudible). Lovan: Somebody, John can use it as a business write off (inaudible) Kingsford: I have no problem let's say John and I golf together (inaudible} because I don't need a business write off. Fedrizzi: (Inaudible) I am too old, I can't play that much (inaudible) well my wife and kids can't play too. Or another one I get a lot is I don't just plat one golf course. And a lot of that is you play at several other golf courses (inaudible) ability to play around. (Inaudible) Kingsford: That is one Wally signs off on I don't. Fedrizzi: See because Will would really like to maybe do this but he may be (inaudible) to go and do that too. Why should we not allow Will to have that opportunity (inaudible) three friends to do it. (Inaudible) no more than he was at $10,000. Kingsford: A person buys $2500 they buy (inaudible) but then that is, I am telling Wally his business and that is none of my business. Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: And then the other thing I was going to do is have our ads read, this month it would be only X amount of time left and less the next time. Otherwise it would be the same ad and as I referred to this before it is all (inaudible) Saturdays now. They were going to have it Wednesday but now I think (inaudible) so that was new since I talked to Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 6 (inaudible). Morrow: I guess the thing is (inaudible) let's press on. Fedrizzi: Well, it gives them an option so they have three options in ways they can help. Morrow: Part of what you are, I understand the point you are making here is that it is incredibly tough to get three people or two other people and one other person to go for $10,000, a lot of people, are there four people that are good enough (inaudible) one of them has to be the captain of the ship so to speak. So maybe we are making it, really what we are doing here is making an individual (inaudible) or whoever to buy (inaudible) or close to it but that is spread over nine months. They don't have to be dependent upon anybody (inaudible) so that makes them a player. Fedrizzi: We are going to do a massive form mailing once you guys tell me to go with this then we are going to do telemarketing. Morrow: I don't have any problems with that, it is agreeable with Wally, let's press forward for next time. (Inaudible) Anything else with respect to marketing? Fedrizzi: Can I just go ahead then with the (inaudible) and get going? Morrow: (Inaudible) grass seed? Lovan: Grass seed, (inaudible) and grass is going up. I did speak with (inaudible) he said this (inaudible) would be available until the 15th of this month. Their blend of (inaudible) grass is (inaudible) the same type of grass that we have out there now, which I would like to keep. This is a Manhattan too, their blend is 30% Manhattan, and two other grasses, 40% and 30% and they are all a pretty good grade of grass. Their bid is $.76 per pound. One other firm did put in a bid he said he would sell it for $.92 and that (inaudible) Kingsford: I would suggest that maybe we I guess you make a motion that we go ahead and lock up the $.76 bid, you calculated roughly Wally the amounts that we would need, how many pounds is that? Lovan: Nine thousand pounds. Morrow: So we are (inaudible) is there a second to the motion that we (inaudible) Lovan: There also is some greens grass included in that. I don't know if we want to (inaudible) because with the finish and upgrade. (Inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 7 Morrow: No, lets (inaudible) that is fairly important. Kingsford: Well, if we could Mr. Chairman talk about this just a second. If we enlist and I know he is not going to be just doing back flips (inaudible) talking about on the greens but say that we do get Hany to provide the specs for the greens and he is willing to do a green but would like to use his green seed would we want to include that? They are in the seed business, just for thought. Lovan: We want the same grass that is out there now (inaudible) (Inaudible) Morrow: I guess to answer your question, if he wished to buy seed for the green and (inaudible) as long as (inaudible) or if he wished to purchase it doesn't seem to me like that adds up to a whole lot of dollars for a green could we just (inaudible) how many pounds of seed? Kingsford: What are we talking about 10 greens? Lovan: Ten greens, I have two figures (inaudible) Morrow: So that is six pounds per green. Lovan: (Inaudible) six pounds per green. Now I also have another (inaudible) one way one time and back across the other way. Morrow: How much per pound? Lovan: $5.90 from these people and that is a pretty good bid. Morrow: That is $60 per green, $72 per green for seed. Ewing: We are talking about the seed now. The seed, 2 pounds per thousand square feet. Lovan: I put two pounds in here John, originally we talked about one. Ewing: What are we talking about right now. what did you say right now? Kingsford: He said a pound per thousand and then he said that these people recommended two pounds per thousand square feet. I think that we are smart to do the 2 pounds if we want to (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 8 (Inaudible) Morrow: That is correct, I guess the point I want to drive here is that in difference to Grant's point we are talking about $75 tops as a cost of seed. (Inaudible) Kingsford: No, I agree, I think we ought to authorize that (inaudible) I can see. grass seed going up substantially. Morrow: Did you want to withdraw your motion (inaudible). Kingsford: I would make a motion that we accept and authorize Wally to okay the grass seed for the greens and roughs at $76 a pound and get a 1000 pounds of that and oh $.76 a pound pardon me and the green seed at $5.90 a pound and what does that total up to in terms of numbers of pounds? (Inaudible) Kingsford: So 130 pounds (inaudible) 120 pounds Morrow: Let me re-read the motion for just a second, it has been moved that we authorize Wally to purchase or commit to purchase the grass seed from Scott's at $.76 per pound for the (inaudible) and the roughs and to purchase the seed for the greens at 120 pounds at $5.90 per pound for approximately $720, is there a second to the motion? Fedrizzi: I will second Morrow: Moved and seconded, all those in favor? Opposed? (Inaudible) Ewing: To start with, last, we have jumped from 20 to 70, we had 77 last time now we are down to 76, we were at 77. It was going to be a big rush and now it back to 76. One of the the things we were going to do last time is we, one of the concerns Dick Davis was brought up, we were going to give him a chance. Lovan: Dick Davis never entered my phone calls. Ewing: I guess I don't want to vote on something and have it come back that we talked about it and we were going to do it and we didn't do it. Lovan: There is only one other person that came in with a lower bid and it is the Pro Turf Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 9 people they had come in with left over seed for $.69 a pound. It was not this combination, Manhattan II is what (inaudible). Ewing: I am not speaking for the committee but I am speaking for myself, if I am going to stay on the committee those things that need to be brought up were if it comes back we can say this was brought up and we made this decision not that it wasn't brought up. Lovan: Pro Turt did not bid this other grass. (Inaudible) Morrow The two that John is referring to this bid (inaudible) Lovan: He never returned my call (inaudible) Morrow: And Pro Turf's combination of grass is not the combination that we asked for. The next question I am going to ask (inaudible) these numbers of seed mix were solicited to all those folk that (inaudible) and at this point Scott's has the best prices. Lovan: A company in Caldwell bid $.92. Kingsford: (Inaudible) that we are talking about $6840 on the rye seed, we are talking about $708 on the green seed. Ewing: What is that we are talking about what? Kingsford: $6840 for 9000 pounds of the the rye seed at $.76 and we are talking about $708 for green seed at $5.90 a pound for 120 pounds. So a combination (inaudible) $7548 (Discussion Inaudible) Ewing: And that is based on how many square feet of green? Lovan: That would be 60,000 square feet of greens. Ewing: 60,000 square feet of greens and at our meeting last time we were talking about 66,000 square foot of greens. Lovan: Actually the greens themselves are going to come out about 5,000 square feet per green. Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 10 Morrow: (Inaudible) so we talked about how much last time 66,000 square foot Lovan: That is what is in our existing greens. Kingsford: So we are talking about these greens being a little smaller (inaudible) Ewing: And there is one more Lovan: We have the putting green which wasn't in the other. Kingsford: So we ought to be having, that is (inaudible) Lovan: And actually that putting green is 7500 square feet (inaudible) Morrow: The, to answer John's question, where we are authorizing the purchase (inaudible) Ewing: Another thing, I am just reading this as I go, I don't want anybody to think that I remember this stuff from the last meeting, but we have here that it was a $1.80 did it go up, I am sorry $5.80, on page 7 for, I guess I need to go back, so we have a new quote. Lovan: No, no John is the same quote. Ewing: Well, right there is the minutes. (Inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) it went up $.10 a pound and in our minutes we have $5.80 and so I guess the impact then Fedrizzi: It says $5.80 here but then you questioned that got in there incorrect the first time. Lovan: In my original talk with him the $.76 was $.50 some a pound. And they wouldn't (inaudible) Morrow: Part of the process here and one of the problems with the format is that (inaudible) lot of natural events happen in between. In our business in that 3 week period (inaudible). Ewing: I think my comments are based on, I don't care about the 10%, I am concerned Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 11 about if we go ahead and we say we will spend $708 that it doesn't come back and be $908 and I am just saying that we are jumping around and I am just, that was my only concern about it. Morrow: And I think that is a valid point, (inaudible) but I do think what we are authorizing by the motion is to buy only at these prices and. (inaudible) than the deal is off. Lovan: The cost now will be based on these figures here the other person that bid on some (inaudible) we are talking about now (inaudible) over $6. (Inaudible) Lovan: It could have been, a lot of the stuff I got down figures and I have a bunch of figures here also for fertilizer and I don't know how far we are going to get into this type of thing, it has never been discussed. (Inaudible) Morrow: Well I think, are you comfortable with (inaudible) Ewing: Yes if Wally is comfortable in saying he has checked every place and has the best buy in town I am comfortable on voting for it. Morrow: (Inaudible) Lovan: I got a call from Troy today and he said he checked with his people and (inaudible) Ewing: I want to bring one thing up and I only bring it up because Grant brought it up. You brought up the thing that we were talking to Cloverdale Nursery and they aren't one that has had an opportunity to sell grass seed? They have? Lovan: No Ewing: Is that a concern since we have asked them to do things? Kingsford: Well Wally I would like to (inaudible) and see if can (inaudible) before we make this purchase. I am still hopeful that Terry is (inaudible) Ewing: I think it is only fair to him that we give him a chance. If he can't beat these places he will understand. Morrow: (Inaudible) expressed a desire to be included in the project? Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 12 Fedrizzi: (Inaudible) Ewing: He has helped me in the early parts of (inaudible) Morrow: Fine that makes good sense, that is a good point John. Let's call Terry tomorrow and (inaudible) and these mixtures (inaudible). Kingsford: Well in terms of courtesy too I know these are not the kinds of grasses (inaudible) he had discussed with me at least if it takes (inaudible) let's give him that courtesy because as I understand (inaudible) needs some time and (inaudible). Lovan: (Inaudible) reputable firm. Morrow: Let's press forward with that, so I think to recap where we are at (inaudible) approved by unanimous vote to authorize the purchase of the grass seed at those prices. (Inaudible) and then execute the purchase prior to (inaudible). Lovan: I will do everything I can to (inaudible) Morrow: We are ready to move onto (inaudible) greens construction and see how we are coming on those specs. Where we left at our last meeting (inaudible) that Wally was to provide John with the specs so there could be (inaudible) it is my understanding that Wally was out of town and has gotten the rough specs put together. Lovan: (Inaudible) the only thing is I asked John to check my figures here and (inaudible) I might add that there is one thing that I didn't do here, I was kind of, perhaps with this sprinkler system that we are talking about that I am talking about it does give a gentle rain and we will have control of the water put on the soil. I was also of the opinion that we did not need the drain pipe that we could take care of everything with this gravel. Then after reading in fact I even had a couple (inaudible) if we are wrong we don't want to go in there and (inaudible) greens again. So (inaudible) to do the thing will cost that much more. Maybe at this point in time (inaudible) Any opinions? Kingsford: I agree with you in terms of (inaudible) but if you think you can (inaudible) save quite a few bucks (inaudible) ten by ten by six a head or something like that (inaudible). Lovan: I would rather put that money in the sand traps and (inaudible) Ewing: I feel the same way I think we should definitely put them in I don't know that is a big ticket item and we are talking about a total green. 1 think that the drain field part of it is going to be the expensive part of it and that is something that you are not going to tear Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 13 up a lot of at least you are out of the green (inaudible) as long as we stub it out and know where it is at. Kingsford: We are going to have to have some (inaudible) job of the site superintendent Mr. K. (Inaudible) Morrow; It seems to me those, my position is that also makes sense because if we have the drain field in and all the lines and we find that we in fact do need the (inaudible) really we are talking about an all day project to put that in (inaudible) Kingsford: There is no real problem with doing that drainage (inaudible) I can see where Wally tells me that there is no drain out there now and I would say that probably two of those are the only ones that are real bad. If we could get away with (inaudible) two out of those ten I think we would be (inaudible) Morrow: So then are we comfortable with setting up this (inaudible) the putting green itself and essentially by this diagram we would come out (Inaudible) this- point right here where the well site (inaudible) so we would write our specs for this green surface to be this plus the leg out (inaudible). Lovan: I think that is in there somewhere. (Inaudible) shall be installed from the back of the green to the low side of fairway. Morrow: John you were saying? Ewing: Once we leave that green area and head out in the fairway we are going to go to solid pipe I would assume. So I am wondering once we got out into that (End of Tape) Kingsford: (Inaudible) Ewing: Well there is no doubt about it if we run solid pipe clear out if in fact we do need it, it is not going to take too long to tell (inaudible) all over the side. Lovan: Your center pipe (inaudible) Morrow: John's point is if it is coming from the (inaudible) we have the solid pipe there the (inaudible) it is a simple matter (inaudible) grass greens Lovan: (Inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 14 Kingsford: If I were following you correctly John, you suggested that maybe we could (inaudible) with perforated pipe? If we go out with solid pipe and we have the kind of soil conditions I am expecting we probably have that probably is going to plug the pipe anyway wouldn't it. So either it will settle or it will go out there and we are going to have a (inaudible) and we are just going to have to deal with it, I don't know that it would matter a whole lot whether it is perforated or whether it is solid. Ewing: No, I think my comment was, I guess I was going back to Wally's comment about maybe we don't even need it. Where it is just a marginal thing if it was perforated out there maybe that would just go into the ground. But if in fact we really do need it nothing but French drains would resolve that. We could never get rid of it unless Kingsford: If he could control the water on there we are not going to have a significant amount getting down the drains. If he can't then we are going to have to go in a French drain those we would anyhow. Ewing: I would think almost if and I again I don't know anything about drains, but I would think almost if you had a lot of water going through there through your drain system it might be a fact that it is over watered but maybe not. Maybe I am wrong. Kingsford: I think we see that and I hope Wally is right, my observation of the greens that I have played they pour the water pretty heavy on the greens and soak them up so they don't have to fiddle with them during the day and (inaudible) they have a tendency to water them the same length of time whether it is hot or cold. That water just runs into those drains and (inaudible) you stick a ball anywhere in the area of where they drain that off they don't have any French Drain you have lost a ball it is going to be (inaudible). I don't know that they have (inaudible) intend for it to run off and (inaudible)and get it away from the greens (inaudible). Lovan: There are occasions when we have actually not had enough water on the greens and the do spot and die. (Inaudible) Ewing: Well maybe a suggestion now instead of stopping this somewhere down the line of the green and the bunkers around maybe we should, if we are going to skip the expense right now of the greens maybe if we go two lengths of pipe we could at least (inaudible) get away from the green and at least that would if we did have a problem at least it would be only golfers like myself would be in it not the good ones. Morrow: Well another thing, the two sections of pipe you are talking about (inaudible) go outside of it (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 15 Kingsford: Of course you park a dump truck there and have your operation go on, (inaudible) Morrow: Okay, I think we are kind of in agreement that we want to write these specs for the greens and the drain system without having to French drain, is that your understanding? Ewing: Yes Morrow: Patsy? (Inaudible) Morrow: We are going to write these specs (inaudible) for bidding purposes (inaudible) with the drain system in place including (inaudible) without putting a French drain (inaudible). And you are comfortable with that also? Lovan: Yes Kingsford: Mr. Chairman, for my edification, can I ask Wally, these specs by (inaudible) Lovan: That is a type of Kingsford: Is that like a mulch of some sort? Lovan: (Inaudible) Kingsford: And these specs are something that Lovan: These specs were actually (inaudible) Kingsford: So it is again similar to what we have out there. Lovan: The greens themselves are this goes back to the old sand green and (inaudible) questions about using that because it is not used very much any more. I did give John (inaudible) there are about 8 basic designs of greens now recognized by the USGA this is one of them. This is one that they recommended twenty years ago. Anymore we are using with this design we are also using perk system with sand to get rid of the (inaudible) the only thing we are not doing is using USGA spec sand to take care of it. So all we want to do is get a good clean, river bed type sand, it doesn't have to be mortar sand, but clean sand (inaudible). Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 16 Morrow: John a question, it seems to me like you (inaudible) Is there an ASPM spec that (inaudible) Ewing: There are a lot and I looked up in a couple of spec books to see if I could find a good spec on the sand that was pretty open and I couldn't because they all went back to those numbers and I am thinking now if we want to go to this type of sand maybe we just put some verbiage in there that it has to be clean, has no debris in it, no clay and maybe go ahead and use that G and B sand as an or equal. By the way I did call him (inaudible) big pile of it down there. I don't know I haven't really thought this through how I would take this and get it to something. I know this is a rough draft but I feel like that right now if we put this up for bid with this there would be so many questions on what we really meant. I did think that we could write a spec that prior to bid submit your sand. (Inaudible) this is good pr not. Lovan: We could put out specs and (inaudible) in size. (Inaudible) sand was listed in there before but not very good sand. Morrow: Very candidly we could do it by (inaudible) coffee can both. Bring your coffee can with your sand or (inaudible) G & B sand as a base sand (inaudible) most G & B sand mortar, (inaudible) Ewing: No, if you get their, you know that is a lot courser a lot courser mix than, concrete sand is a lot courser than mortar and a lot less (inaudible). Morrow: Well the thing of it is I don't want to see us buying mortar quality sand. He is indicating (inaudible) I guess the issue is (inaudible) and the (inaudible) down where it is the lower end of the scale in terms of dirty. Ewing: Right now if we do not throw some guidelines in on the sand I feel like we could get everything from a 60 grit clear up, whatever is coming out of their pit and there is some awfully fine pit run sand in this area. It is almost blow sand because we have all seen that and we certainly don't want to get into construction and all of the sudden see that that somebody has got this as a byproduct and they figure this is a good place to get rid of it, specs doesn't say we can't. Lovan: (Inaudible) visually inspect it. Ewing: If we are going to, I think we can do that Wally but I think we need to tell them in the spec before they bid it that we have to either see it or tie them down to the specs and then definitely. I think after the fact after you get a price from them and we accept it that is a tough time to be arguing that I don't accept this sand. This is when the contractors Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 17 come back saying well if you didn't want this sand you should have told us. Morrow: So our specs should be something to the effect that we want a 40 grit or 30 grit sand clay free and generally in those terms and then also talk about seeing a sample as part of the (inaudible). Kingsford: The other issue I think that the City (inaudible) Morrow: That is why we would (inaudible) Kingsford: In a timely fashion (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: Do the two of you feel comfortable about creating specs (inaudible) present them to the Council at our meeting on the 19th at City Council. (Inaudible) Ewing: For just the green? Morrow: What I want to start seeing John is (inaudible) whatever it is we can have to start that process. Ewing: Well, we are talking about sand I guess (inaudible) Kingsford: 1 think we are talking sand as well as drain pipe (inaudible) material to gravel. Ewing: That is just what I was going to say. I guess, Kingsford: I would say the greens construction materials. Morrow: If you guys can get me a set of specs for the 19th for that (inaudible) .address the Council. (Inaudible) should you (inaudible) if you endorse these specs than (inaudible) Ewing: I can certainly try to take this down and add the wordage that I think would keep this apples to apples and not get us into trouble. I think I am as concerned about not getting us into trouble because I am keeping everybody to apples to apples. I guess that we need to have some, a paragraph in there now that the sieve is going to be furnished by the City that will be furnished. One of the things Wally, that you had mentioned to me now is that you were thinking about putting together a drawing for each grain so we are going to have part of the spec for number 10 we are going to have a drawing showing the basic kind of the shape and how you want it. I am a little confused right to start with I am Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 18 kind of jumping around a little bit. We started off by having two inches of half inch rock put there and then we were going to spread the dirt around, don't we need to tell them that they need to cut it down. We need to, I guess what I am wondering is how far do we go on these specs. One of the things that would help the specs a lot is if we put a qualification in there right to start with that you have to have at least so many things worth of experience or don't bid it. I think that is a fair thing, I mean I don't know if that is a fair thing but I will tell you that I see that a lot. You don't get to build this dog. house unless you have already built one. Morrow: I think that has merit because the issue if we get a group of (inaudible) the first thing is we are going to be all over the board. The second thing is we are not in (inaudible) and if they have no expertise (inaudible) becomes a nightmare because that (inaudible) all hours of the day. Ewing: It also means that the specs get pounded on. I didn't figure it that, show me where it says, and so if that is the group we are going to have to have that makes this job of getting the specs a much harder to cover all the bases. Morrow: Well we are not going to cover all the bases. Ewing: I know that too, I am a little uncomfortable about (inaudible) Kingsford: Your sentence or paragraph ought to be in there that we see their sample of each of those products maybe. Narrow them down as thin as we can (inaudible) sample of each. Morrow: Let me ask you this to go back a step here before we get to that is maybe you do invitation only and that might help solve the problem of (inaudible). Ewing: Well we are certainly doing that on the Sprinkler system I guess. We are certainly doing that on some of the other things. I guess we, that is something that if we do invitation only I am saying that we can almost stop right here and have apre-bid meeting and say and I don't know that is a bad idea anyway but this is the intent, this is what we are doing, keep them in (inaudible) clean the specs up right there. Before the bid send out an addendum of all the questions and the answers. Morrow: I think that makes a lot of sense because the issue (inaudible) five people than they come in and we sit down and (inaudible) craft the specs based on-what information it is they need. We could write up a bunch of specs (inaudible) because they all know that to begin with. (Inaudible) plus some more. So we could do the pre-bid (inaudible) and say okay here are our specs what are your questions. Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 19 Ewing: I think that is a darn good idea and I will tell you if we give these specs to someone who does not know how to build a green that we need (inaudible) because I don't know how to build a green and when I read this and I am not saying Wally did wrong I am saying when I read it and I did not take time to fill in everything but I had a lot of questions. I did put this to one of our estimators in there and said could you build a green on this and he came back and said no and before I got to discuss it we were off, we work in the same office and don't get to see each other for four hours at a time. Kingsford: Mr. Chairman, if I could though, I don't think, being devil's advocate again my concem is the City standpoint, I don't think that a municipality can do an invitation only bid. Morrow: That is an interesting question. Kingsford: (Inaudible) write it fairly tight, as tight as we can. I think we have to accept any ` bid. Fedrizzi: Could you advertise the meeting is going to be held such and such and invite specific ones and see who shows up? Morrow: We can always do that, we can have apre-bid conference (inaudible) spec conference. Kingsford: As far as the bid itself I think it has to be open to everyone, John and Walt can say I don`t want to have so and so (inaudible) but a governmental entity has to put it up to everyone I am afraid. (Inaudible) Kingsford: I think you can say as a qualification that you (inaudible) there my concern gets back (inaudible) Ewing: And that is a concern. Kingsford: That is a big concern, you mentioned that essentially we are doing (inaudible) but are we. We have asked some qualified people to say what we need in terms of material and layout, are we asking them to build it? I am not sure that we are, it might be that we are going to have (inaudible). Ewing: Let me work on these. Lovan: (Inaudible) layout on every green this is the elevation, the berms are fit into the Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 20 elevation. (Inaudible) so our elevation right now is from zero level ground up to about 4 or 5 feet (inaudible). Would you take this drawing right here with all of the elevations (inaudible) berms and everything else. The only thing we don't have is the contour of the (inaudible) anywhere from zero to five inches (inaudible) any way. It pretty well falls in that range right there but it seems to be listed (inaudible). Ewing: If you could get that to me that would really help and then (inaudible) try to cover each item through (inaudible) spec on the sand and then I think if it is alright I think we will have apre-bid where they will have, all my times of trying to figure this stuff out I haven't' talked to anybody that knew what vita bark was. I don't know if that is something old. Lovan: (Inaudible) Ewing: Those are things that we have to put in our specs because when there are ten of them sitting up and they say Wally what is vita bark we have to have an answer. Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: Is that a trade name or something? Kingsford: My guess it is some kind of trade name, probably something in there like a peat moss or something. We need to find out what it is (inaudible) Morrow: Who do we ask to find out? Lovan: I asked DuRite what it meant to him and (inaudible). Morrow: Where did the information come from? Lovan: This came from (inaudible) this is what was used (inaudible) Kingsford: I am not sure where Balldock is now (inaudible). Morrow: Well, let's start with him and see if we can get a definition of what it is or at least maybe does he have an office (inaudible). If he has an office Lovan: (inaudible) Morrow: So let's see if we can find him and at find out what those things are (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 21 Morrow: Okay, so we are (inaudible) the final question is can we have those specs (inaudible) and I think what I am hearing you say is (inaudible) Lovan: You hive surveying instrument don't you? Ewing: Well yes Lovan: Well, why don't you come out some afternoon and we will spend an hour (inaudible) find out the elevation of our existing greens and check 2 or 3 of the others what they are and then we will know where we are headed (inaudible) more dirt or less dirt. Ewing: You want to shoot your existing ones and then go shoot what you have the new ones? Lovan: Well two or three (inaudible) Kingsford: So are we talking there Wally about this kind of material or are we talking about (inaudible) Lovan: Somebody is going to have to come in the final stage before we start putting sand on. (Inaudible) Kingsford: But in terms of these where we are talking about building the green we are looking at a different thing in terms of roughing than what we are in terms of (inaudible). Lovan; (Inaudible) Morrow: I think what we are after Wally is that probably we furnish rough cut, the purpose of (inaudible) Kingsford: In terms of what you are saying I would suggest that we probably shoot those elevations Lovan: Somebody has to do it. Kingsford: And to go up or down on what is roughed in we need to do that. (Inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) somebody is going to have to do it now whether these people that we are talking about building the greens whether they are going to do it or whether we go in there and do the berms (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 22 Morrow: Let me ask you this, who has the best expertise (inaudible) Kingsford: (Inaudible) Lovan: When you say build a green now what all does that include, the berms and all the dirt has to be pushed in and the berm (inaudible) rock in and sand in and build your berms. Part of the berms (inaudible) higher in the back end (inaudible) part of that berm will flow right into the green (inaudible) from there on you (inaudible) or two inches and ten feet and maybe it will flatten out and go the other way part of it will be down and part of it will be (inaudible) clear down to the level of ground. Ewing: I would be lying to you if I told you I understood everything you just said, but that is what I need help on. We need to convey that on paper too and put it in the bid. Lovan: That is what I am telling you (inaudible) my problem is finding the time to do that. Ewing: I don't mind bringing an instrument over I am still a little bit confused, I know we can shoot existing and by shooting it I can tell you that from the fairway to the center of the green or anywhere you put it I can tell you that difference. I can tell you how it slopes (inaudible) what are you going to do when we go over now to the new nine. Ewing: We are going to take it over there and see what we have (inaudible) Kingsford: You are talking about adding these numbers of inches that you show here and if that comes out (inaudible). Ewing: It is just a subtract deal is all. Alright, I will bring the instrument over and tell you what the (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) one may be four foot the other may be five foot if five foot is too much slope because we certainly don't want those balls running right off the green. (Inaudible) Kingsford: I don't disagree with that but by the same token I am not so sure that we have got to go in terms of the elevation exactly (inaudible) my big concern is we have (inaudible) that we have the same amounts of material (inaudible) Lovan: Well they are not all the same (inaudible) fall within a guideline what I am saying is that as they go down hill they should go down no more than five inches. Ewing: We don't need to shoot that though, you just need to write it in the specs. If I shoot Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 23 it all it is going to do is tell you whether you roughed in right or wrong. Kingsford: Well I guess what Wally is saying though he needs to shoot it so he knows what that spec is. Ewing: You want to know on the existing one if you have got a 2% grade. I can do that Morrow: (Inaudible) secondly in terms of (inaudible) Lovan: What we have now, we don't know what we have now. Morrow: I think from our perspective in terms of this bid thing for the greens I don't (inaudible) I think that what we do is simplify this. We provide the rough grade to that plus or minus (inaudible) whatever that grade may be and then have the greens people fine grade it and build their green. Lovan: If we do what you are talking about Walt than we don't care what they do as long as (inaudible) and that is all (inaudible) so we have some up and down. Kingsford: You are wanting to have some break (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) and the value of shooting some of the existing green is to find out what the rough grade of the down is to be. Ewing: Okay, I don't think we are writing the spec though on the rough grade up, I think what I see is that rough grade should be there and the guy that builds that green will go take it down from rough grade about 12 inches. It is 12 not ten because you ten of sand and 2 of gravel. Take that down carve it out, make is berm blend and everything and then come back up. So I think that our roughing should be at finished grade plus or minus a tenth or I don't know. That is another question I have, I am thinking that right now the way that Charlie has done this-grade is just piled up there should almost be good enough for these people that supposedly are green builders and artists to go in there and carve out their green, shape it down the 12 inches, take that dirt and make the swales around. What Wally is saying tip them and everything and we should be able to tell them that we want to have positive drainage from the drain from back to front if that if you want all the drains tipped this way and hitting into them. We should be able to come up with that by shooting it or I even read that in one of these books. I am saying the book is right, we shoot it. I think that the spec myself should be almost this green including bunkers and if there are sand traps they should be done by the same person. That is what I think, am I thinking Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 24 wrong? Lovan: (Inaudible) somebody has to it. At this point in time it is not done (Inaudible either Charlie is going to have to do it or somebody has to. Ewing: What is not done? Lovan: The finish (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) we are getting to the same point whether them cutting it out and shaping or whether we (inaudible) I don't have a quarrel with that. I would suggest this in terms of bunkers (inaudible) very candidly those might be one of the expendable items in terms of budgeting problems. (Inaudible) it appears to me that is something (inaudible) Ewing: I think I was meaning the humps, the mounds all of that we want in there. We will shoot this but then help me on one other thing, are we going to say (inaudible) up the fairway coming in and take the elevation ofF of that. Or are you going to have a benchmark set (inaudible) Lovan: Whether it is one foot bound (inaudible) if we have two or three feet (inaudible) more than the other one. Kingsford: I think what Wally is saying is (inaudible) Lovan: We have part of those greens out there now you can't hold a ball on. (Inaudible) Ewing: So vvhat you are saying is we are going to tell on this particular drawing we are going to shoot and call this zero and then we are going to come up here and say the back of that green will be something, I am not even going to get the right number (inaudible) 2.6 and we are going to (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) and all we have to do is go out there and make sure this doesn't exceed the outside of our specs (inaudible) and then all we have to do is come around the outside edge (inaudible) make sure that we have berms in here and all the way around the edge. (Inaudible) so that we get the (inaudible) this has to be done. Ewing: Okay, I will bring an instrument out and Lovan: (inaudible) all elevation in here, here are the berms they built in here. Ewing: I will bring an instrument out and I will set it up and you can look though it or I will Golf Course Construction Committee March 4, 1996 Page 25 look through it and we will shoot anything you want and then (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Kingsford: I have a concern Mr. Chairman, we are approaching April 10th and the 15th and I don't want John Anderson to come over here and take my (inaudible) we had better have that out in advance of-that water coming in. Lovan: (Inaudible) Kingsford: We have got to get with the program, Gary could start a licensing agreement with Nampa Meridian to get something in and (inaudible) determine where that needs to be. I don't want to be out there (inaudible) So do you need a licensing agreement for that (inaudible) so we need to get Gary to or his crew over there to work on a licensing agreement for (inaudible) We can also however times we traverse that have at least one (inaudible) Lovan: We also need permission from the ditch company to take that excess water (inaudible) can we use the existing pond (inaudible) Kingsford: In terms of delivery? Lovan: In terms of delivery (inaudible) there is something (inaudible) check again with Gary (inaudible) city needs to request that land go to (inaudible) we may not have to run that static pipe over there. (Inaudible) Morrow: Let me suggest this to you, this is probably something (inaudible) Kingsford: Can you take that I~yout Wally and tell me in terms of (inaudible) Lovan: I don't have a copy of (inaudible) here John t just ran across this, one of the things I had done with the (inaudible) Kingsford: You are going to get locations for me, rough locations for those crossings. (Inaudible) Lovan: There is one that comes across the bridge right here (inaudible) Now whether Turnbull comes in later and ties in (inaudible) (End of Tape)