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HomeMy WebLinkAbout96May13 Golf Course Committee MinsGOLF COURSE CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE MAY 13, 1996. The meeting of the Golf Course Construction Committee was called to order by Walt Morrow at 4:00 P.M.: MEMBERS PRESENT: Patsy Fedrizzi, John Ewing, Grant Kingsford, Wally Lovan, Brad Watson: Morrow: Okay we are going to open the golf course meeting (inaudible) address the specs, the City Engineer's department is Brad. Any questions he may have of us or we may have of him (inaudible) Watson: Gary gave me this last week and I don't know if he was real clear on (inaudible) put together bidding documents, general conditions and all that sort of thing is pretty much boiler plate for any construction project (inaudible) that is pretty easy I have that all on the computer (inaudible) the bulk of all of that. Where the questions came up is how far do you want us to go, what is the exact scope of this project and I guess I have some specific questions some technical questions. If that is what (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) Watson: Wetl first, this is going to be a can of worms, what is the exact scope what I have included (inaudible) construction of the greens. I don't know if irrigation is included in that or grading. Morrow: Well essentially (inaudible) Kingsford: And planting Morrow: (Inaudible) sprinkler system materials, sprinkler system labor, pump system, :and an addition to the pump house. (Inaudible) Watson: The drainage system are you talking about, is that only going to be (inaudible) Morrow: That would be an item, depending on how the bids came back (inaudible) Watson: I have included all of that in the drainage system (inaudible) Ewing: I was going to say the drainage system for underneath the green is in the green, scope of work for the green and it needs to stay in there I believe. Didn't we decide that, the only thing we were going to eliminate if I understood right as far as the drainage map was whether we put the french drain out or not. Kingsford: I think the reality could be (inaudible) that we may have to make some hard choices (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 2 Morrow: We need to have that (inaudible) Ewing: We have that in the scope now we need to make it as two bid items. It could stay in this scope I believe but it needs to be, when the bid sheet is made that a separate line item, would that work? Watson: (Inaudible) just a preliminary bid schedule and this is based on the green with the drainage system in it. (Inaudible) rough grading, I assume (inaudible) Ewing: The reason that wasn't in the scope of work are you talking about the original farming, there is actually two parts that I would consider rough grading, there is on that is getting the fairways and up to the greens and the greens kind of the material set in there, what Charlie has done. We don't have a scope of work for that, the scope of work that I think is going to happen in this part of the bid package is the people. that. build the green are going to go in and shape, sculpt these greens and I guess that would be considered rough grading. The bulk of the material is going to be there. Are you saying that i~ not in this scope of work? Watson: The way I have it set up right now the rough grading would be before they come in and do anything they sort of shape it up. Ewing: The first phase Watson: They shape up the green and then they go ahead and put in their drainage system, they put in the gravel, sand base Kingsford: I think what you are asking for is what we have had Charlie do (inaudible) Ewing: But we want to make a definite line there. The material and everything is going to be there, whether Charlie does it or not. We do not want that green that guy that is building the green to be thinking that he needs to go gather material up to do this. We want him to know that when he comes in there in that 200 foot circle or whatever it is his work is there. Watson: (Inaudible) go in there and do the general shape and put all the materials down there (inaudible) responsible for the final shaping. (Inaudible) I have some, I guess unscaled contour drawings, but I am wondering if this is sufficient for the contractor or if you even want the contractor to be doing this. (Inaudible) Ewing: Definitely the contractor needs to do that. Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 3 Morrow: (Inaudible) we are envisioning that this is the green area, what happens is that all of the materials there, the rough grade and rough shape are there and these people come in, they taper the shape more they put in the drain system come back off the top and fine grade it (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Watson: (Inaudible) contractors use to do the final shaping? Lovan: (Inaudible) Watson: Well these are unscaled so it is kind of a suggested thing for the contractor and if he goes out there and tries to do this, how much control do you guys want over how precise he gets with (inaudible) set benchmarks and have him (inaudible) Ewing: That was the intent, when we put it in there originally that is why it wasn't scaled, this is to say this is what we want it to look like, if this ends up a little bigger or a little smaller but these are the breaks. This is what the first nine looked like and this is what we want the second nine to resemble. I think the control we are going to have is basically if (inaudible) then they are alright. Watson: (Inaudible) three different points on each green construction where whoever it is, I said the engineer but (inaudible) to prove it before they proceed. I think you will have plenty of chances to keep them under control. Do you want (inaudible) irrigation system (inaudible) Kingsford: For the construction of the sprinkler system Watson: (Inaudible) Ewing: Did we find out if we could use the drawings or not? Kingsford: (Inaudible) Watson: (Inaudible) so that has to be installed before they do the greens or at least .(inaudible) I guess, we need to bid this (inaudible) so (inaudible) sample specs that I got, maintenance was one of the items to be included, is that true or (Inaudible) Ewing: I think that was put in there, I probably just made that up, but I believe they should be, I believe those greens should be maintained up through maybe the first mowing, I guess maybe that is a thing we should discuss. I don't know that we should just have them Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 4 plant and then they are done. If it never comes up, that was the thought I think if in fact there is a problem there they would need (inaudible) warranty period also. Watson: There is a one year warranty period (inaudible) Ewing: Not all grass that, is planted grows. Watson: (Inaudible) Ewing: I don't know, that is why it was put in there (inaudible) Watson: There is a little bit in here (inaudible) Morrow: So what is our desire, do we want (inaudible) Kings#ord: (Inaudible) Ewing: One thing we run into without having a general contractor over the whole thing is to take all of the hit is who do we go to. The more I think about that maintenance thing if grass doesn't grow it is going to be because the water didn't (inaudible). Even if we personally know it got watered four times a day that is going to be the excuse. I don't know what we are gaining on it other than maybe running the price up a little on that. (inaudible) then again I would think with most sods, aren't we going to have (inaudible) water washing and with these different grades and I would think that is something we want that green contractor to be responsible for. It is coming back in there and making that a good surface. Morrow: (Inaudible) that is up to him to take care of (inaudible) and obviously if it is not enough water or (inaudible) Ewing: How long does it take from the time you plant (inaudible) with that type of grass. Kingsford: I would imagine you are talking about a month or a month and a half (inaudible) what you can't let it do is get too tall or you get a real (inaudible) most grass you let it grow and no big deal. But you let that (Inaudible) Watson: (Inaudible) through the first mowing or 45 days whichever is longer. Lovan: I would say through the second mowing. Ewing: Should we have something in the specs then telling them when we expect it to be Gol# Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 5 mowed the first time, like (inaudible) Watson: That is in there, that was in the sample specs that I received, it said when it go to 3/4" to mow to a height of 1 /2". Kingsford: (Inaudible) I am very sensitive to John's comment about running up the price (inaudible) Ewing: (Inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) makes a certain amount of sense to get to that first mowing (inaudible) and that type of thing (inaudible) Kingsford: But we are talking about a different (inaudible) water contractor, and again like John said not to have a general that guy that does the greens is going to want to have it all (inaudible) want more money if he has to come back and put. some more sand down and reseed and area that gets washed out. Morrow: Well let's maybe discuss how we see this thing going because I can see making a case for constructing the greens and not (inaudible) it may very well be that you shape and taper and (inaudible) and then you have the sprinkler guy doing his stuff and then you have somebody else coming back and fine grading the fairway so to speak and then you plant everything (inaudible) maybe it makes sense to have the green constructor (inaudible) 30 days or more (inaudible) and then after the greens are built you come along and you do the sprinkler and then you do the fine grading and. then you do the seed (inaudible) Kingsford: The case you can make for going wet with the greens first is it (inaudible) Morrow: I understand that but (inaudible) how do you get the greens (inaudible) Kingsford: (Inaudible) before you irrigate the fairways, but logically we are going to have the sprinkler done at the same time. Maybe it makes sense that we go in and seed everything in one shot and wet it all. (Inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Ewing: Right now we have it in the spec that the guy that constructs the greens though (inaudible) so now we are talking about going completely to the other end of it and do all of the planting. I think and again I never even watched them build a golf course but it looks to me like that it all should be pretty closely tied. I would think that by the time a person Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 6 got in there and put the drain system in and carved those greens out and did their thing on there that sprinkler system should be coming through there that we should be pretty well fine graded in the fairways before the sprinkler system ever goes in. It should just be a matter of dusting those up after that sprinkler system goes in. A lot of just hand raking and getting that back in there. It seems to me that if in fact we do plant the greens first which I know you are thinking about holding out but if we did and start the water early I am thinking that is going to create problems in trying to get the fairways in around the greens we are going to have water, we are going to have (inaudible) just constantly working on them and they get away. All we need is 15 minutes of them swinging a full circle instead of a half moon and then we have that fairway work stopped around the green. It looks to me like it should almost go together. I can't see why it would (inaudible) Kingsford: (Inaudible) it is logical I guess that we could do that. Ewing: If we hold all the seeding back that is what we sure would do. Kingsford: We were looking at getting a machine or getting a farmer to come in and seed certainly we could with moderate supervision get somebody out there on a drop seeder and just greens as well. Ewing: Is the farmer going to be able to seed the mounds and stuff or is that, that could just be broadcasted around that I guess. Morrow: (Inaudible) depending on whit the mounds are Kingsford: I would say most of the mounds would be, you might have to do a little bit of (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Kingsford: But that probably is the right way to go. Lovan: (Inaudible) Morrow: So then that is what we want to do, we want to seed all at the same time (inaudible) Now let's take the scenario too (inaudible) got in this contract that the installer (inaudible) Ewing: But the flip side of it is and I am just trying to tell both sides of it is that when that green contractor walks off and he is not planting he is done. He has no, the minute Wally says that looks okay you are going to see what he looks like leaving (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 7 Kingsford: That should also be representative to the bid (inaudible) Morrow: The other thing is that from the stand point of the greens contractor once he has it graded and raked out and all of this stuff in there and it is fairly well compacted why (inaudible) to do anything. Ewing: The other reason why I think it is important though to keep this stair stepped very close not have the green contractor go out there and out run everybody and in a week be done and have the sprinklers follow up in the next four or five weeks is I believe that we will lose everything that we have got done on the greens as far as the weeds coming up and it is going to be pretty much when a pretty small window in there in my opinion that (inaudible) Kingsford: Is there a way that we can spell that out in the bids where the final grade of the greens will be coordinated with (inaudible) We had talked about that a couple of times I don't know if it was with Terry or Morrow: (Inaudible) the green constructor and the sprinkler (inaudible) Ewing: If you don't consider that we have to coordinate, we have the guy before the sprinkler guy and we have of course the farmer seeding it. Morrow: (Inaudible) Ewing: But it is an important coordination. Morrow: Do you have a sense of direction there now. Watson: I think so. Lovan: (Inaudible) Ewing: Do you think and I know that the City always does this especially when it comes from engineering part, but do you think it is wise to bid by unit prices, length, I guess I always like it when I am bidding because there is no risk. I don't know that our quantities are right, I don't know that there is 1400 lineal feet, did you run this? Watson: I did and I was going to get to that before too long. I have put together quantities. for each green and all it is based on it is (inaudible) each greens is approximately 5000 square feet. I don't know how true that is going to be or not. Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 8 Ewing: I think it is going to be true within a 1000 feet. Watson: I then came up (Inaudible) but I just did a little preliminary drainage layout and multiplied it by 10 for the 9 greens and (inaudible) piping for the soil (inaudible) Kingsford: Are we talking about (inaudible) so the practice greens doesn't need to be drained. Watson: Okay, but the other things I just took the application rates straight out of the example specs and multiplied it by 10 at 5000 square feet (inaudible) true are these numbers (inaudible). may be plus or minus 10%. I just laid it out exactly how these other (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) 5000 square feet (inaudible) Morrow: So if I understand you correctly (inaudible) some, of those quantities (inaudible) and you are satisfied that the numbers are right (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Watson: One of the problems that I had like with the sand and gravel layers I don't know exactly how you want to bid those quantities. I have put them on square yards right now and that is (inaudible) because I have had problems in the past (Inaudible) Morrow: I don't think there is any job site verification. (inaudible) Kingsford: I would say that probably by the square yard is as good as anything. Ewing: They do it all the time though, they have weight tickets and you have to have your weight ticket. But I have never had one that, I should say never, but more times than not there is always an argument, we don't care how many tickets you gave us you didn't bring that much, if you would have brought that much the hole would be filled. Morrow: Part of the problem with tonnage sometimes John is that (inaudible) moisture content and so on and so forth (inaudible) that doesn't happen. The hole figures out X amount of volume -and also X amount of weight and then for some reason you get a gradation change or you get a bunch of moisture in it so it weighs (inaudible) Ewing: (Inaudible) there are just a billion things that happen. That is why I guess I always like to go away from it when I am on the site of having somebody doing it instead of doing it myself. Just say hey you have a hole to fill you figure out how much it is going to take. Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 9 When you got your ten truck loads in there and it takes one more don't cry to me you bid it. But then again, that risk factor is maybe going to run the price up. Watson: That is even more true when we have unscaled drawings, they can't measure out and figure out exactly (inaudible) if they could they could probably do it on a lump sum (inaudible) Kingsford: Well where they do the more of less finished grade and the materials are there you would think they would be able to wouldn't they (inaudible) Watson: I have put in here that there is a mandatory pre-bid meeting conference or whatever I guess that could be a time when (inaudible) Ewing: There are only a couple of them (inaudible) but in my talking to different people when we were trying to come up with the rough specs I had the feeling that all of the people that I talked to that build greens consider themselves almost artists. We could have the best detailed elevations and everything and we certainly if we had that we could hold their feet to the fire but I think they all go in with the attitude and intent we are going to make this the best green we have ever had so leave us alone. Come back when we are done, that is kind of the opinion I got from every dne of them. You give us the general idea and we are going to make it. I think right now that is okay with us as long as it stays. I think probably the biggest thing if they want to go look at something and I hate the word intent but walk the first nine and look at all of those greens and that is what we want the second nine to basically repeat. We don't want anything a whole lot, different. Lovan: (Inaudible) Ewing: That is what Wally did is go out and basically you drew that off of your existing (inaudible). But if everybody else is comfortable with quantities, I just threw that out. Kingsford: I guess the only thing I can say about quantities is particularly the sprinkler system if you need a few more pieces and parts then you have them at a good price. But in this kind of a job maybe that is not all that critical anyway. You can go out and probably just about replicate the prices for a few anyway. Watson: Well if they buy more parts and pieces (inaudible) Morrow: So that would be under the scenario then (inaudible) the contractor submits for reimbursement (inaudible) maybe we buy the parts and pieces for them (inaudible) original supplies simply say that (inaudible) Golf Gourse Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 10 Watson: (Inaudible) is there another schedule for fairway grading? Morrow: No I don't think so (inaudible) Watson: Is there any landscaping (inaudible) sand traps, bunkers, is the sand that is supposed to be used for those the same as the spec for. the turf base. I only have one sand spec (inaudible) Ewing: What did we spec for under the green? Watson: Well you have the gravel, the 1 /2" gravel, the sand, I don't know maybe it is the same thing, I don't know. (Inaudible) Ewing: That was'one that we wanted to see a sample of. Because we had a hard time with that sand, we were kind of in the place that we knew what sand was until somebody asked us what we really had and we didn't know what we had. Lovan: All sand is not the same, all mortar sand is not the same. Watson: Okay last thing, what is the contract period, how long is this going to take? Kingsford: Well if we are not going to get is planted this Spring anyway I guess flexibility (inaudible) we want to be in before the irrigation water (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) better shot at (inaudible) Ewing: Oh definitely, I think if we are not going to seed this summer there is no sense in doing it, I am going to come back to the weed issue, we will go through Winter we will get wet we won't be able to work the land, the weeds will come up and we are right back to square one. Not quite back to square one but darn near it. Morrow: (Inaudible) Ewing: We cannot let the sprinkler system go through the winter without working it, trying it get (inaudible) Kingsford: We have to have it run a number of times to bring that grass so we know what it is doing. Watson: Is this what I gave you (inaudible) Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 11 Ewing: If you are going to work that mortar sand spec over for the sand traps would you mind going ahead and checking that for the drain sand too? (Inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Ewing: I think what I was trying to do when I wrote that spec was is as you said there are so many different kinds of pit run sand which some of it is real clay and stuff so when we wrote the spec to get good clean gradation and everything pit run sand it almost comes down to it sounds like you want mortar sand. Again that was the thought on bring in a sample if it comes in and it is dug out of the side of the mountain, and everybody has seen that yellow pit run sand that we have around here and it has hunks of clay and stuff (inaudible) and that is considered pit run sand too. You get on this side of the freeway, south side of the freeway though and they have pretty clean. Morrow: (Inaudible) Ewing: So it is hard to write a spec with a generic thing of pit run. Morrow: Couldn't you use (inaudible) you could almost be double of (inaudible) Ewing: Again I think that the purpose was that they had to submit the pit run sand that they were going to use to be accepted. If we are going to leave just pit run or if we are not. I think the only way we can tie it down as pit run is if we specify pits that are approved. A list of approved pits. And I thought that at one time when we talked that we did not want to do that. Because that eliminates the (inaudible) Lovan: Charlie said that (inaudible) Morrow: Maybe the way you do that Brad is you (inaudible) where is that level, how big are the granules of sand acceptable. Lovan: That inspection (inaudible) Morrow: You could probably call (inaudible) Mike Sand and Gravel (End of Tapp) Morrow: Any other questions for Brad, John? Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 12 Ewing: Ido Morrow: Patsy? Fedrizzi: From a marketing standpoint though I have a comment, this week, is that I am hoping that you are going to plant in August because that is, I am going to be a liar if you don't. Morrow: We won't make you a liar, August is the deal. Kingsford: I guess the question that 1 would have is when are we looking at having this (inaudible) Watson: I don't think it is going to take too long, (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) we need to be bidding here directly. (Inaudible) Ewing: You need some other things, you do have the list to create the specs for the (inaudible) Kingsford: You need to get from him (inaudible) Ewing: And then we need to come up with kind of a scope of what we expect from the labor end of it and you are going to do that. Lovan: You don't have anything there on the pumping system itself (inaudible) electrical system installation (inaudible) (Discussion Inaudible) Lovan: We came up with about $10,000 for the pumps (inaudible) Kingsford: Well the pricing are we talking about just doing this on three (inaudible) or are we talking about having a spec and bid it? Lovan: (Inaudible) $25,000 Morrow: Well if that is the case in terms of the pump and installation I don't see any point (inaudible). I think for our purposes right now (inaudible) that John and Wally and I looked Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 13 at certainly isn't above $25,000 (inaudible) maybe what we do for our immediate purposes is we cost those few things out ourselves. That gives us (inaudible) what are your thoughts John? Ewing: I think that is good. Morrow: Patsy? Fedrizzi: I am fine with that. Morrow: That is fine so what we really need Brad is the spec (inaudible) Watson: Pump system and building (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) in both cases it sounds to me like they are going to be well under $25,000 each and I think we just do that with estimates and calling around and getting the prices from (inaudible). Ewing: On that formal bid you have to advertise for 30 days? Is that what it is? Watson: I don't think so, (inaudible) we have to advertise two times two weeks before and a week before. Kingsford: So it would take us (inaudible) three weeks possibly depending on (inaudible) Fedrizzi: Are you advertising in the Statesman, the local (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) Kingsford: What is your feeling, if you get it in the Building Contractors and (inaudible) if you think that everybody is going to see it (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) other issues, I have to leave here (inaudible) Fedrizzi: I can make this real quick, there is no change in our golf course expansion account that I work with, so that left us a balance of $23,027.55 and I figured that our flyers would be about $50 and they came in at $64 so actually what we have is $20,263.55. I am still doing my marketing, some of the ones last week that we talked about that maybe we could still make $20,000 or $30,000. What I am getting in is pretty much that I have had two people that I really thought were going to come through and I don't think you know them. One is Gary (inaudible) and then there is Michael (inaudible) talked themselves out Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 14 of it. How they talked themselves out it is the 20 years is tdo long they don't even know what they are going to be doing in 20 years and I am getting that quite a bit. Maybe (inaudible) 10 years is a little more feasible. I still have Terry Smith, Moe Alidjani who says divorce and all of the things still has him messed. But he would like to support it in some manner and he would like to give some dollar figure but right now he is not sure (inaudible) Keith Bird, Craig Rambo, John Berg, Will Berg, Will Berg Sr:, Doctor (Inaudible) Wayne and Connie Crookston I have not been able to reach him but I talked to Connie and she said they (inaudible) they haven't really had time to talk about it (inaudible). My question to everyone here, and now we are (inaudible) but because these people are all still rather interested, what do you think about shortening up the length and cutting that in half. I don't see that we are going to raise those six figures now (inaudible) hard, (inaudible). How do you feel about that, it is awkward to advertise, it would be Like, (inaudible) but I hate to then say we have to do this (inaudible) Kingsford: What do you think about on the $2500 Wally, double (Inaudible). I guess the odds are that you can say to the people (inaudible) Fedrizzi: And maybe $1250 is a little less hard to swallow. I am just thinking that we are not going to be able (inaudible) and raise $10,000 which buys a little something. We are kind of Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: This isn't giving them (inaudible) it would be 25 which is what they would get for 20 years but it would (inaudible) we are not getting more we are just cutting the time in half. (Discussion Inaudible) Ewing: I just want to make a quick comment, we should have got Brad to start with. Morrow: We just got him as an employee John, he wasn't on board when we started. Ewing: I took that what he did this last week, you guys were just harassing me, you wanted me to learn how to build a green. When you seen that it would not work and then you had him just finish it. (Discussion Inaudible) Fedrizzi: Anyway there is no more give away. Golf Course Construction Committee May 13, 1996 Page 15 Kingsford: Then really Patsy it is going to boil down to if you (inaudible) I am still of the opinion that we can (inaudible) June 1st comes around this is what we have to do. Lovan: (Inaudible) Fedrizzi: And that certainly is an issue to our Jim Johnson type of guy or something (inaudible) Lovan: They are getting their monies worth with the $2500 Fedrizzi: I just wanted to throw that out so that no stone was unturned. So, I have not had anybody ask me for that, it was just in my own head if that is the kind of responses we are getting. I came back and I tell you guys the good, bad and ugly (inaudible) Kingsford: One thing I would like to bring up before we leave and I should have asked maybe Walt about it (inaudible) I am in class (inaudible) I must have called Charlie's office 15 times. (Inaudible) and get Gillingham to finish up (inaudible) Why don't you call John (inaudible) Fedrizzi: Or leave a message to get back to you (inaudible) Kingsford: I have, not with Gillingham, but I have with Charlie. I know that I am tough to get a hold of too and (inaudible). Fedrizzi: Well we are going to run flyers in neighborhoods (inaudible) so I said it has to be done this week. Kingsford: Well in absence of the chief I would entertain a motion to adjourn at ten minutes after 5:00. Ewing: I so move. (Inaudible) Kingsford: All those in favor? MEETING ADJOURNED AT 5:10 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS)