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HomeMy WebLinkAbout96Jan18 Golf Course Committee MinsGOLF COURSE CONSTRUCTION COMMITTEE JANUARY 18. 1996 MEMBERS PRESENT: Walt Morrow, Patsy Fedrizzi, John Ewing, Wally Lovan, Grant Kingsford, Bert Myers: Morrow: Let's open up the meeting (inaudible} January 18, 1996. The first item on the agenda will be kind of a status report to bring us back to business after being gone over the holidays. I think that the logical place to start is with Patsy in terms of financial information. Fedrizzi: Is this the way you would like this laid out, income, cash is $16,600 that we have received so far. Trade outs, $20,000, expenses, printing and postage, $165;24. Commissions based on the $36,603 was $3,660.30 leaves us with a balance in our account of $11,977.96, the anticipated expenses are Modern Printers for-our corporate passes and the Valley News advertising if we choose to do that which we discussed at our last meeting. That is it. Kingsford: I wish Will was here, did we not pay some of those bills like Rock and, they weren't paid? Ewing: Not according to Charlie, I talked to him just this morning about that issue. Kingsford: They were supposed to have been paid and Morrow: This billing just came in my box within the last week. Kingsford: (Inaudible) I signed the checks for that purpose (inaudible) I signed one for Frank Farmer Fedrizzi: Janice (inaudible) it included (inaudible) Ewing: According to Charlie he did not I suggested that week and a half ago to two weeks ago he called me about it. At the time I told him that I could go ahead and call you or someone and see about it but I suggested that he send another bill and address right to Walt. I hope that wasn't Fedrizzi: What is the dollar amount on that? Morrow: Well, the total amount is $11,170, he has had three invoices. The first one is $4,470, second one is $4,530 and the third one is $2,170 and the dates of invoices were 11/15, 12/18 and 12/31. The one that I do have the hard copies on is the one from 12/31 for the $2,170 so it would appear that somewhere in this company there are two other invoices. Lovan: Will has them, one of them has been paid in December. Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 2 Kingsford: Is Janice here? Morrow. Janice is here. Kingsford: I will check with her before I leave (inaudible) because checks were signed and Will was supposed to have sent them. Lovan: The farmer should have his also. Kingsford: If Charlie didn't get his than the farmer didn't get his either. Morrow Okay, so you will follow up with Janice. Lovan: And they should be ready for another $4000, Gharlie should be ready for another $4000. Kingsford: This total invoice that Charlie sent should be all probably what he did (inaudible). Ewing: I asked him if that was the total bill I think it would, well you said you would take care of it, I think that is important. Kingsford: Yes I think it is very important (inaudible) Ewing: I think that will be an issue. I don't like having him call me. Kingsford: It was certainly my understanding (inaudible) Fedrizzi: I would like to recap, there has been no other activity all this month except for a $25 that I just received from the Larson's (inaudible). (Discussion Inaudible) Morrow: So the next item that we ought to be talking about then is where we are at with those preliminary costs for (inaudible) do we have anything? Lovan: I have not received anything back for the cost of sprinkler system, tow or three different companies are working on it. Morrow: For the bid results for the sprinkler system. Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 3 Kingsford: So you did that on the one original one you had based on three holes. Lovan: Yes, it is based on three holes. There were several talks on the grass seed and this sort of thing and why every time (inaudible) and we probably should be thinking about maybe putting it out to bid. Morrow: So then what we are going to do then is we now have a sprinkler system that is up for bid. Lovan: They are not up for bid, for estimates. Kingsford: So you will have the amounts and so forth for us to get to bid, the units amount? Lovan: Yes Morrow: So we will have that for the sprinkler system, we will have the information for the seed (inaudible) is the greens specs. Ewing: I want to go back to this sprinkler system, how if you have three people working on it and I guess I am asking this for my information and they are running out how they want to do it, how they foresee this should be done, how are you going to put it out to bid then when you have three, somewhere. Kingsford: What we are looking at doing here John is we will bring those in here, we will look at those and look at the rough cost what the estimate, take the sprinkler system that vve want and put that one out to bid. Ewing: So what we are doing is we are really letting them write their own, we are going to pick which spec we like. We do not need to worry about coming up with this spec then as such for the sprinkler system. Kingsford: I think otherwise we hire a sprinkler engineer and (inaudible) for designing it. I think this is probably the cheaper way out (inaudible). Ewing: And they all (inaudible) like what you think you want. Lovan: I have told them what I want which was a low pressure system. Part of them are going to use rather simple mechanical devices and some are going to be more sophisticated I am sure of that. We will have to look at it and see what we want. I have no problem getting by with what we have out there now. It is quite simple and not spendy. Golf Course Construction. Committee January 18, 1996 Page 4 Except for I want a different type of a system laid out than what we have now. Morrow. To recap (inaudible) three people out there who essentially (inaudible) what date do we have for them to have that completed to us? Lovan: Well here again, some of these people, the one outfit in Nampa, their architect is in California, it has gone there to him now. I haven't been back long enough to check on it. Kingsford: Let's take a look, it seems to me Mr. Chairman, (inaudible) notify them and if one of them is not back we go with the other two. Morrow: I was going to suggest that we probably pick a date that is (inaudible) with our next meeting and we can set that time now that everybody is back, do we want to go back to late Monday afternoon meetings (inaudible) 4:00. (Discussion Inaudible) Morrow: Do you want to look at February 12? That is three weeks, is that okay with you Patsy, Bert, Wally, Grant. Okay 4:00 on February 12 it is then. So let's use that as a date Wally and then bring together our feasibility studies. Lovan: Now Walt I have to ask the question about how would we go about meeting your specs for putting out bids? Morrow: Well, I think what we do is once we see that information come back from them than we crack up (inaudible) (Inaudible) Kingsford: Give him the people's names (inaudible) Lovan: Well seed is down to $.50 a pound now. ,Apart of this is being done by Scott's so I am sure will be one of the lower bidders. Also he said that they would do for us we would have to have starting fertilizer to get the seed growing. He said he would be willing to give us the 27 hole. construction cost, new construction cost which is cheaper and also that he would tie it in with by own personal (inaudible) which would give us another 17% discount. Kingsford: What kind of dollars are we looking at there is that (inaudible) Lovan: We are looking roughly at about $5000 Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 5 Morrow. I think $4000 or $5000 (inaudible) we don't even have to get 3 estimates. Kingsford: Well if we are under $5000 I don't believe we do (inaudible) that just changed a year ago by the legislator. Lovan: (Inaudible) Davis also requested that he be able to bid on the grass so I assume that (inaudible) we put it out to bid. Morrow: We can certainly do that if you want, what I am suggesting is that (inaudible) certainly put out a spec and say this is a spec (inaudible) what is your price. That way you satisfy everybody to the extent that anybody that wants an opportunity to participate has one. Kingsford: Well, certainly I think an approach to Cloverdale (inaudible) he mentioned a higher price but he was talking about (inaudible) Morrow: The other thing is I want to be very sensitive to community criticism I think we need to do it in such a manner that everybody that is in the community in the business gets an opportunity to participate (inaudible). This issue is sensitive enough as it is. So let's make sure that we (inaudible). The greens, the green basis, .(inaudible) that you two can generate. Kingsford: What came out of (inaudible) analysis out there? Ewing: He found no gravel there that is just basically sand down to a hard pan layer. Isn't that what you understood, that is what t understood. Was this letter created from (inaudible) it is addressed to you I think. I got a copy I thought everybody got a copy. Morrow: Grant may not have because at the time of our last meeting he was not on the committee. Lovan: He core sampled down to 12 inches, 12 inches would .probably not be far enough down. Kingsford: (Inaudible) Lovan: And there would be a build up we probably would have (inaudible) 12 or 14 inches or so before you hit gravel. Morrow: Are you talking about natural gravels? Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 6 Lovan: No, gravel laid over the base, construction base that we would lay. Morrow. Okay, I was thinking in terms of the core sample it generally means that they core down and find a layer of gravel and you wouldn't find that until (inaudible). Lovan: No, he only went down 12 inches and there should be 12 inches of sand on the. greens. They were built with a 2 or 3 or 4 inch gravel base with 12 inches of sand on top. That would be my recommendation for building the things. Two to four inches of gravel, 3/4 inch rock and 12 inches of sand with a little bit of some type of moisture retention on top. (Inaudible) Lovan: Peat moss or something like that Walt. Ewing: I have worked a little bit I guess not a tremendous amount on this spec and I am having lots of trouble with it. I talked to Wally about is and when we talked you were talking about 3 inches of 1 inch rock is what I wrote down maybe I mis-wrote it down. We talked about putting down a pit run sand that was going to be acceptable, we had the spec and I don't know how to write that to give it to be fair bidding. Everyone is going to think, unless you want to run around apre-approved pits all over the country how do you write that you can bring your own sand if it is acceptable. That could make a tremendous amount of difference in any one person's bid. Kingsford: I think what Terry has got there what is that 3/4 (inaudible) I think we need to call out some sort of spec. Ewing: We have got to come up with something I have all kinds of stuff faxed to me, Wally gave me books, that is like giving a first grader a geometry book though and say learn how to do it. I have read this, I can't make any sense out of, I mean I can. I could go to I guess I fellow you know Craig Jackson. Craig told me he flat wouldn't bid it unless there was a design on it, a cut, and he felt like most of the people that were good at this sort of thing would not do it. There are too many variables. He basically came up with you can get an $8000 green or you can get an $80,000 green. If-you want an $8,000 green he didn't think we were going to get too many people bidding it that is just what he told me. Lovan: Excuse me for interrupting, but my understanding John it was up to you and me to come up with some kind of agreement to write the specs. Ewing: I am not trying to make excuses but I am having a hard time coming to what you really want. If you want to continue with you and I we certainly can, I am having a little bit, Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 7 if you are convinced you can convey to me something I can write down that is going to make sense to me where it will make sense to everybody else I will certainly give it another shot. Right now I am, when I wasn't sure what we really came up with, I know I am stuttering here because I am not used to coming to meetings making excuses. This is really, I guess what I am saying is I didn't do what I said I was going to do because I never could figure it out. Morrow. Okay, I think the way to solve that problem is that we know that we have to have some ground and so, whether it is 3/4 minus or inch minus that is very easy for us to (inaudible). We know we are going to have 12 inches of sand, the key to success is that. we find some sand that is acceptable and we take it or you take it, it doesn't matter to our testing agency that does our core samples for concrete so on and so forth and we say okay what is the granular consistency of this sand so we can write a spec. They will give us the information that it is no. 60, 40 or 20 or whatever and we write a spec that says we need a price per yard for (inaudible) ASTM (inaudible) from that point on we can draw a section that they are asking for indicating ground level, Ewing: I got you, I think this is the one we want right here. I think that is the one I would come up with. Okay, I guess I got a question for the committee, are we, really I don't want to be, I will try to put the stuff in the way I that I think will make sense to contractors won't trick us a committee but at the same time we wont' have any problem. I will try and do that. I we going to go by Wally's recommendations then because I am being told that rototiller and peat moss on the top will not work I was told that by Jackson, I was told that by Cloverdale, I was told that by Spur Wing, Jock. Of course I don't know if Jock knows anything and who, Tucker, that is who I was talking to. And Tucker is saying, and I never even I mean Jackson and Carrie Cook knew what I was talking about, but Tucker didn't even know why I was, as far as he knew I was putting one in my back yard. Anyway, I am being told that we have to have these drains, it can't be any bigger than 3/8 rock or you will get too much like I say when I talked to Wally he was talking about 1 inch rock. I guess what my question is, are we going to go by Wally's recommendations or do you want me to keep.trying to kind of (inaudible). I was thinking I could get all this information and jive with Wally and they would help me write it or really what I was hoping is they would go and they would get a spec and (inaudible) and I could come in and say I didn't do this but here it is. (Inaudible) Lovan: What I am after John is a green that will play exactly the way we have them now. Ewing: I don't know how to write that. Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 8 Lovan: Basically what we have there now is what is in this one right here. Ewing: (Inaudible) well then maybe we have already go the Lovan: (Inaudible) 12 inches of sand, and we need something whether it be peat moss or whatever we need something to hold the moisture because with strictly a (inaudible) Ewing: Not a blend in that whole 12 inches? Lovan: Not a blend in that whole 12 inches Ewing: Well, that is my question, are we going to go by your recommendations or the USGA. Believe it or not I have read this book (inaudible) I am going to be more of an authority on this than I care to even (Inaudible) Lovan: Now when the original greens were built we built them according to USGA specs at the time now they have changed their ideas a little bit. We still want to keep our greens the same. Now after three or four years with core drilling plugging and filling in with sand you have sand anyway basically through the whole. We aerate twice a year and we aerate with a half inch spike, take out a core 1/2 inch in diameter and fill it full of sand. Morrow: I think what that tells me John is that we have got half of a golf course built one way and the other half needs to be built the same way to be consistent is that correct (inaudible). Kingsford: That is certainly my perspective. Some damn place and I have seen them we have the specs for the (inaudible) those are them. Ewing: I think they might be. I am telling you it is a long way from what we think we got, I don't know that it is a long ways away. Lovan: That is exactly what we got. Ewing: When I had Jackson read that spec, he didn't even know what some of that stuff was there. Kingsford: Well of course Craig, he has been in golf course design for 10 maybe 12 years and this dates back to Lovan: 1978, this course here was (inaudible) he has 900 to his credit now. Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 9 Morrow: He is an architect (Inaudible) Lovan: He built New Meadows, he built the country club over there (inaudible). Kingsford: (Inaudible) Lovan: This was the first sprinkler system he ever tried to design and put in himself. Ewing: Maybe what you really need is if we are going to go by the old spec and change it and what Wally wants maybe what we really need is to have Wally come up with the specs and then not only myself but all of us can just review it and say okay in my opinion these are the loop holes you are going to have, this is the good part. That is the only reason you want me on this deal. You didn't want me on it because I knew how to build a golf course. Morrow. I wanted you on it for two reasons, one is your expertise and two is the next time you and I competitively bid one of these we have two intelligent bidders. Kingsford: The logical step in having you or Walt on that is so that it appears to a contractor so they know what the hell it is we are putting out a spec that is reasonable for them to (inaudible). Ewing: I saw that being my position and I haven't come close yet. There are so many holes in this. Kingsford: I think that is what we have got to do is (inaudible) and make it a full status report. When you go from one side of the golf course to the other you expect to be knocking the ball in at the same projectory and land at the same distance (inaudible) same number of inches. (Inaudible) Kingsford: They are entirely different golf courses. Ewing: What I am hearing in my visits and I really have thought that the greens was probably the most important to have -the right spec there are more pieces to it. The thing that I am hearing the most is that when you hit the ball you do get a good shot that rolls, it sticks when it hits. When you putt it doesn't bounce all over, they are consistent from one hole to the other. The other big thing is the drainage, I have more people tell me when I Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 10 got talking about this the worst thing they hate is to go up and be wanting to chip on and they are standing with water up to their ankles or their bog holes and stuff. That was another thing though that when we get into it, we talked about Wally mentioned that we were going to come off to the site with a 6 foot round hole. I think we need to get it more defined with how many square feet you want. Do you want them to go to pit run, I need to have all of that. I did get some literature too and that is why I am kind of wired up about. They are recommending now that all of these drain systems have pop ups where you actually can re-blow them out through the years I guess they clog up which it makes sense. But again, I guess that I don't see you can see a little detail here where they are actually blowing a clean up where you take pressure water and back flush them and get them clean. It doesn't tell me here whether we are looking at an $8,000 or an $80,000 green either. These are all things that Lovan: What we have now we built without drains and we are having problems, we have always had problems. Ewing: You have the pipe in the gravel Lovan: No Ewing: You have the gravel (inaudible) Lovan: (Inaudible) Kingsford: That pipe has got to be in there, it has got to be like the (inaudible) it goes out and goes into this hole (inaudible) through the hard pan layer. Ewing: So then do we go out and dig test holes and tell them or do we make a spec for (inaudible) that all the drain fields will be 8 foot deep, don't ever make them round, everyone digs square, but 6 foot wide and 9 foot long and then 6 foot. Then we want a price for the 7th, 8th and 9th foot if we have to have that as a, you know I think it is important and I appreciate it as a contractor when we are tied down and no open ends for change orders. But the fact is when you are sitting on this end of the table you want to have it where it is already pre-determined you have to have 8 feet instead of 6 feet what is it going to cost you. No surprises especially where I keep getting more things told to me and it concerns me that we definitely have to keep a tight belt on this, the funds available. Lovan: But you have to go down John as far as bed rock so he can drain it away Ewing: I agree Wally but you have to write down go to bed rock. Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 11 Kingsford: Can you, as a contractor feel good about 6 foot deep and then what is it on 6 foot deep to get us through. Ewing: I think that the wording I would be comfortable. There is no sense in putting 6 foot in if we know that all of that mile it is 12 foot pit run. Kingsford: I think the reality is that out there we are going to have to have somebody out there that superintends that so I just (inaudible) because out there (inaudible) that hard pan (inaudible). Ewing: I don't think we will have problems if we are close either. But the point I am making is that I don't know if 6 is the good number. It is better to have it as close as you can. Lovan: What i was going to say John, is the in front of number 2 green went down 15 feet before we broke hard pan. Ewing: Do we want to that you have to go 15 feet on all of them. Lovan: No, you have to go down to bed rock. Ewing: Alright Walfy, how much is the hole on number 15 going to cost. Lovan: I have no idea John. Ewing: Well neither does anybody else. Morrow. This is (inaudible) what.the issue is we can develop the cost of the greens based on our information per green as a (inaudible) we also know over there that the (inaudible) in that area (inaudible) 15 feet. So what we do is we pick an arbitrary number as an average, let's say 10 feet and so let's bid the thing that these areas (inaudible) will be 10 feet deep, 6 foot by 6 foot and then we will have a rider that says if it is 10 foot, 6 foot by 6 foot (inaudible) we can interpolate ourself what the cost (inaudible) what we need to do is we need to budget additional $5,000 for possible drain wells that would be (inaudible). We don't need to make it complex enough that we tie a digger down to a specific number in each thing. We can use an average and then cut ourself a cushion. Then our superintendent over here who is going to oversee construction can make those decisions on the site seeing as he has nothing else to do. Ewing: That is where we need to go to. That is I guess what I was really driving (inaudible). Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 12 Morrow. What we want to do here John is we want to write a spec based on what we have (inaudible) conditions out there now. (Inaudible) what we want to try and do is emulate what is there now. So we write a spec based on those conditions of the greens, we determine what the average dry well is going to be and we write that spec and then we bid those specs. We bring it back to the. committee and sit down and say it is going to cost us this, let's put in the fudge factor of this and then we bring together the cost of the. (inaudible) and we say okay here is what our budget has got to be. Based on that that is. where we are at. Lovan: Basically you are out there 6 112 feet water right now, average unless you hit a spot like in front of this number two then you are going to have to dig down 15 feet before you hit water. Ewing: So maybe eight is a better number than ten. Kingsford: Well it might very well be I know in that pond originally there were spots in there at the north end (inaudible) but there are places (inaudible) so I wouldn't be surprised to what that eight foot might (inaudible) we design it and we have a fudge factor and we go where we need it. (Inaudible) Lovan: If you don't get through there is no reason to build it. Morrow. Let me suggest this to you as a side fine this supports the same position. On the lake that we have (inaudible) we get completely pervious then at about 6 or 7 feet and we can't physically pour enough water in there (inaudible) colored sand, I haven't personally seen it before (inaudible). That is a problem with the pond because it is a retention pond that (inaudible) consequently the irrigation ditch supplying it with water and supplement that (inaudible). We ran into the same thing on the sewer line extension for St. Luke's that for the guys that were coming across there (inaudible) sewer line over here is a white hard sand almost like salt and the minute you scratch it and penetrate it then it turns soft. Kingsford: (Inaudible) Morrow. (Inaudible) the water runs through there and runs away because then (inaudible). So in Meridian we are dealing with those two types of conditions. So if we use the 8, let's use that it is probably a better number than 10. Lovan: And sand here for building the greens we do not want a round smooth type sand you have to have one that is jagged, I imagine probably the same thing as mortar sand. Morrow. Well, it could be but I think what you do is you provide (inaudible) so we can say Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 13 okay this is the sand I want to use (inaudible). Ewing: I think it would be fair if you find the sand at a couple of different pits or something and you can find specs for the sand. Kingsford: You want to be careful you don't find the specs for sand and it is a long (inaudible) Lovan: In one of these books here that I gave you it tells you (inaudible). (Inaudible) Lovan: We use mortar sand Morrow: And that all comes from? Lovan: It comes from Eagle, Eagle is really the only one that has it, Mike's. Morrow. The mortar sand that we use in mortar on our construction projects comes from (inaudible) Lovan: Now I have been getting it from Mike's from some time now, G & B didn't have any the last 2 or 3 years I tried to use them Morrow. So it is (inaudible) stucco and brick mortar it comes almost (inaudible). Kingsford: Those specs we had also in there a picture like this (inaudible) and it showed that same thing with those (inaudible). Ewing: It would sure help if we could find it. Here is all the stuff on the site, but I agree, if we are just going to use a sand from Mike's Sand and Gravel the specs can be wrote that call Mike and find out what he is calling, what gradation is your sand, call that gradation out and say we want Mike's Sand and Gravel gradation sand or equal. Then I guess if someone else comes in and says I want to by the Sand out at G & B's pit and it meets the gradation and they can give the test results that is does it doesn't matter. Morrow: (Inaudible) Lovan: It has to be clean and no clay. Morrow: That would go with (inaudible). Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 14 Ewing: Okay, well, again, then you had told me one inch do you want to stay with that one inch or do you want to stay with that spec and after you get everything you want then I will formulate it into the deal, that is what I would really like. Morrow: Okay, (inaudible), now what you need to do there John is you need to call up Mike's and see what that (inaudible). Ewing: I can do that. Morrow: And Wally will give you the specs he wants for gravel and (inaudible). Lovan: Gravel John, I don't know what all is available here. Just one afternoon I called up Mike's because that was the only place I could get gravel there for awhile. (Inaudible) Morrow. We have 3/8 pea gravel, 1 inch minus, 1 1/2 inch minus, we have 2 inch straight line. Basically we can provide you with any gravel that you want. Lovan: Some of the courses use pea gravel, I don't recall right now what Balldock used. Ewing: Well you told me that you wanted 3 inches of one inch rock. I am not arguing that if that is what you want. I am telling you everything in here and Jackson and Terry said you put one inch in there and you are going to lose all of your sand right through it. You might as well throw your pipe away. That is why, I don't want to change your idea if that is what you want. Lovan: Like I say now I don't know what Balldock used in there. Ewing: I would suggest that it is a pea gravel as fine as you can get it, get the moisture through. it but at the same time keep it so you don't lose your sand. That is another thing that they were quite concerned about this pure sand instead of that peat moss. Lovan: Pea gravel is $26 a yard, that was the price quote I had. That is the reason I went to the larger rock. Morrow. Well John brings up the point with the issue of (inaudible) sand migrates down into it (inaudible) Lovan: Now if you go get a 1/2 inch rock I am $ure (inaudible). Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 15 Ewing: We are only talking about 3 inches here (inaudible) it doesn't matter to me. I think the thing is I agree with having them the same before I guess it can work now. We certainly don't want to have nine holes though that it saturates the (inaudible) and the greens go to hell and we are trying to compare them (inaudible) 12, 13, 14 years to get good. I have said this before and I will repeat. it, everybody that I have talked to that has played Meridian doesn't know how you build them. They know how they built new ones but they say they are as good as greens as anybody in the valley has. So no one is disagreeing about doing them the way they were done before but when I start bringing up how it has been explained to me they were done before they say no way that won't work. Morrow. (Inaudible) I want to throw this out in regards to the pea gravel. Pea gravel at $26 a yard at 3 inch depth we can get 100 square feet per yard in pea gravel. The question is how many yards does it take to do a green. Maybe $26 a yard is not unreasonable because we are not talking a lot of yardage. Ewing: Well we are talking about rounded out at 25 and we said that our average size of our green would be 6500 square feet so that is $150 worth of gravel just round numbers for just the gravel per green. I figured that and I know that was pretty rough. But $150 to $200 Morrow. (Inaudible) that is 65 yards Ewing: Oh that is right, so I have to go (inaudible) Lovan: That is the reason we did not even consider pea gravel. Ewing: So what is the other gravel? Lovan: The lowest diameter that we can get (inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) Lovan: But at the time I didn't have time to check with more than one. (Discussion Inaudible) Morrow: Because the other side of the coin is that originally it was (inaudible) Lovan: Excuse me it wasn't rock it was sand, pit run sand. Ewing: Another question that I have Wally, I guess you can get all of that and like I said Golf Course Construction Committee January 18, 1996 Page 16 if you come up with it I can put it into something I think will make sense. (End of Tape)