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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1998 11-17MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL MEETING NOVEMBER 17. 1998 The regular meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order at 7:31 p.m. on November 17, 1998 by Mayor Robert D. Corrie. MEMBERS PRESENT: Ron Anderson, Keith Bird, Glenn Bentley, Charlie Rountree. OTHERS PRESENT: Bob Corrie, Will Berg, Bill Gigray, Bill Gordon, Gary Smith, Shari Stiles, Brad Watson, Dave Bowman, Tom Kuntz, Malcolm MacCoy. Corrie: Thank you for coming this evening, kind of sparse, it must be raining outside or snowing. I haven't been out there for a while, but thank you for coming today. Council, we have the consent agenda items A, B, C, D, & E. Is there any Councilman that would like to have any of the A, B, C, D, or E taken off the consent agenda at this time? Bird: I have none. Bentley: None. /-Ri15110Ti1111111110159M Rountree: Mr. Mayor, I move that we approve the consent agenda. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree, seconded by Mr. Bird that we approve the consent agenda. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 1: FINAL PLAT FOR ASHFORD GREENS NO. 3 BY BRIGHTON CORPORATION — PORTION OF THE W'/z OF THE'/2 OF SECTION 3, T.3N., R. 1W- Stiles- W: Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council I believe these two plats on items 1 & 2 were tabled so that the issue of drainage could be worked out. I'm not sure what other issues that were part of that tabling. Rountree: Water extension. Smith: Mr. Mayor and council, David Turnbull handed me a page of photographs that he's taken on the storm drain swills at Ashford Greens to show that the construction has been completed and I'll bring that up and pass it along to you. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 2 Also, one of the reasons for the tabling of the two subdivisions had to do with the extension of a water line from the Lake at Cherry Lane #4 to Talamore Boulevard and the city's requirement—my requirement that Brighton Corporation was responsible for that extension. I reviewed the situation with the city attorney Bill Gigray and Bill issued a memo to me. I made copies of that memo and I'll come forward and pass those out to you. The main—I think Bill's main comment is the second paragraph from the bottom of the page. Where by he recommends that the city not impose the condition of approval of an unrelated plat to the note that was on the development drawings without there having been some condition of plat approval on the initial plat requiring compliance before any other plats would be approved. So from that standpoint, public works department would not make the requirement for Brighton Corporation to extend the water line as a bases for approval of plat No. 3 and plat No. 4. Think if you have any questions concerning the legal aspect of this Mr. Gigray would be willing and able to answer the questions. Thank you, that's all I have. Corrie: Council have any questions of Mr. Gigray or staff? Bird: I have none. Anderson: I have none. (Inaudible) Rountree: Either question for Gary or Attorney Gigray, either one—I guess my understanding from this is the note to accomplish the water line was part of another development agreement or another plat, not this particular—on a preliminary or final plat of another sub? Smith: Yes Councilman Rountree (Inaudible) the requirement that was placed on Ashford Greens No.1 Subdivision was a note on the construction plans, or development plans for the sewer and water system for that subdivision. That basically said the water line --a water line would not need to be extended at this time from --I think it's Talamore Boulevard the main entrance to Ashford Greens to Ashford's East boundary which is the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 4 until such time as the water line and the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 4 was constructed to their west boundary, or to the east boundary of Ashford Greens total development. At that time, Brighton Corporation had option with the landowner to purchase the property in pieces as they developed, which included the area where this water line would be placed, the extension. During the period of time that Ashford Greens No.1 and No. 2 was being developed, Brighton Corporation lost their option on the property. That option was subsequently picked up by another developer. So that created some concern with Brighton as far as this requirement was concerned. That was the question that I raised then when Ashford Greens No.3 And No. 4 came up and that was—the memo that you have Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 3 in front of you is the result of Mr. Gigrays research on that question as to whether or not I could require the developer to make that tie as a condition of approval on plat No. 3 and No. 4 which is before you tonight as a final plat for approval. It was not a condition—the extension was not a condition of plan approval for No.3 or No. 4. 1 guess that's the meat of your question Councilman Rountree, is that correct? Rountree: The follow up is the continuation of the loop or the completion of the loop has been annotated on an approved plat for the now owned Steiner Subdivision, so we can get the loop completed. Smith: The loop will be completed. We have requested that—initially Steiners submittal No. 8 which is before you tonight as a Preliminary plat came in showing that line as a future line. We required that to be removed as future and it was to be shown as an improvement part of that plat. Now there are probably—I couldn't say for sure, but there may come an issue of whose going to pay for the water line, but I guess that's something that needs to be addressed at a later point. But, the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 8 which is before you tonight on the agenda item will have to have that water line installed before it can be accepted by the city. Rountree: Perhaps it could be worked out before the two developers (Inaudible). That's what I needed, thank you Gary. Gigray: Mr. Mayor and Members of the council, as a point of information and background on this I would advise you that prior to issuing this memo, we did with the cooperation of the clerks office give you all the previous actions and motions that were made by the City Council relative to the subdivision approval that this particular obligation comes from. I would assure you that it is not, at least it's my understanding the position of Gary Smith as public works director of the city that the obligation still stands as set forth in the note. The issue here is using that as a condition of plat approval from some other plat that is not correctly related. I believe that there may yet be some other development that may be related to that that could come before this council at some later date. In addition, you might note in this memo I make a recommendation here that if you seek to maybe have a condition of pat approvals that certain conditions are completed before other plats would be approved. I think we ought to shore that up with some kind of ordinance or something that you ought to consider if that's—if those are going to be conditions that you may want to impose on future developments. If this got to be a problem, because as I understand it, from my discussions with Gary is that this note which is on this plat that's the subject question was really in accommodation to the developer to not have to put that line in at the time. They originally did the development upon the condition and their assurance that they would put it in when those subsequent events occur that are referenced in the note. So, if we get into those accommodations in the Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 4 future, it seems to me that it would be reasonable for the council to impose conditions of other developers could have that as a condition on them, but I think we'd have to include that on our approvals as conditions and I would like to back it up with an ordinance, but I'd wait here for direction on whether or not you wish to proceed in that manner since this issue is brought kind of to a head in this matter. Corrie: Any further discussion? Rountree: Are there any other issues, I haven't seen the pictures yet, as far as a completion of the drainage basins. Are there any other wishes with respect to the desire of the developer to put the various (Inaudible) city property as it relates to operation and maintenance of the golf course and the needs of the operation and maintenance of the golf course that there may be an understanding that they are going to be taken care of by the developer, but we don't have that in writing and/or they may not have been done at this point in time. Smith: Mayor and Council, I don't recall the particulars on the drainage issue. Rountree: Wasn't the (Inaudible) proposals for disposal of drainage be in drainage basins within the golf course property? Smith: Yes, correct. Rountree: Is that something that's on record that the city has approved previously, or is that something that has been discussed? Smith: Yes Councilman, we do have some drainage areas on the golf course presently. Rountree: I know we have them presently, do we want new ones? Have we agreed to allow new ones? Do the drainage basins that have been proposed interfere with the maintenance and operation of the golf course? I see the photos that finally they're somewhat reasonable to look at after considerable length of time of them sitting out there being eye sores, difficult for the golf course to maintain. I know this stuff takes time, but that is a city facility and I just don't know and I still don't understand what we've agreed to in terms to a commitment or an agreement with a developer to allow discharge of storm water into drainage basins that will be on golf course property. David can probably answer that. Smith: From our initial comments on the review of the project, item No. 13 on our site specific addresses the drainage ponds and the concerns and the problems that existed with existing drainage facilities. The comment was that we do not feel that it's appropriate for this developer to pass responsibility for the maintenance to the golf course. Typically other developments ponds are similar Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 5 facilities located within the homeowners association owned and maintained common areas. The developers engineers response to that—to our comment was from the inception of the Ashford Greens project in conjunction with the development of this golf course, City of Meridian officials agreed to the concept of a storm drainage swills within the golf course. In regard to the comment, the drainage ponds did not function properly, we contend that they have and will function quite well as designed during high intensity rainfall. Obviously they needed some corrective action to make that happen. There has been a problem with nuisance water which is being corrected at this time by the developer. These corrections consist of insulation of rock trenches in accordance with ACHD approvals. This worked to reduce nuisance and water problems will also reduce light maintenance to mowing and broad leaf control normally performed in maintenance of large turf areas. I don't know that I have a—we don't have an agreement with them. I don't know that I've heard any proposal from the developer as far as maintenance of these areas. It appears that that's being left to the golf course as part of the golf course maintenance. Rountree: Well being that the golf course is ours and we know that we have drainage problems with their last bout of above normal rainfalls and we had to partner with another developer to get some of those problems taken care of. The engineers response (Inaudible) an agreement with the city. I guess I'd like to have David recognized and bring that information forward again, but I would still like to have that agreement (Inaudible) spell out what kind of guarantees the developers are willing to stand by in terms of making sure that those facilities work. If they don't' work that they agree to part of the cost of making them work and taking care of any extraordinary maintenance cost that might be born by the golf course. Corrie: Hearing that, this isn't a public meeting, but Dave you want to give us what you have on that? Hearing what has been said. DAVID TURNBULL, BRIGHTON CORPORATION, 1246 W. EXPLORER DRIVE, BOISE, ID. Turnbull: Appreciate the opportunity to come up here. Let me just state that the drainage issue became—you know this was a design issue, obviously. While the response from our engineer indicates that the storm drainage will work well, obviously there was a problem with the nuisance water. That's what caused the problem with the maintenance. We had started on corrective action well before this came to light in Ashford Greens No. 3 and No. 4 here. We were working through that problem so it wasn't precipitated by the approval of these plats that we initiated the action. We did work with ACHD to come up with a solution on modifying the drainage swills that were already in the property, in the golf course property to put this, the rock cringes that you see in here. It's pretty typical of detail of other areas that you will see around the city. It seems to work very well, Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 6 about the—just a few days following completion of those improvements there we had a fairly good rain and it filled up those swills and within a matter of hours all the nuisance water was gone. Some of the neighboring property owners that have been concerned about he problem called our office to thank us for taking care of the problem and everything seems to be working well. We have been working with Ada County Highway District who has primarily -you know in the normal course of things responsible for the maintenance of storm drainage facilities. We are entering into an agreement with them to do the light maintenance, any heavy corrective maintenance would fall under their purview. So what we are saying I guess is other than normal mowing, trimming and broad leaf control which is normal in any turf area and any golf course their should be no maintenance requirements of the city or the golf course operator who is leasing the property from the city. We are willing to take that responsibility under our hospice within the owners association responsibilities. Corrie: Does that answer a lot of your questions? Rountree: There was an indication in your—not attorney, but your engineers response to our concern that there is either an actual or an implied agreement with the city to allow those (Inaudible) on the golf course. Turnbull: Let me go back and address that from the very first planning stages this is back when Mayor Kingsford was in office and I believe commissioner Rountree you may have been here at that time, but most of the other faces have changed. We have identified on the preliminary plat that was approved by the city, various drainage facility easements around the golf course properties with the understanding that detailed plans came back that those might shift back and forth, but were identified on the preliminary plat not actually dedicated as easements at that time understanding that the easement may need to shift a little bit. So—but the understanding with the mayor and the public works department at that time, was that yes golf courses just like parks are used in other areas that are appropriate facilities to take care of drainage like this. I guess, you know the implications made that we are using the golf course property, but you kind of need to understand it from our point of view. We are the ones that gave away that golf course property. We are the ones that deeded it to the city. All we asked for in return was an easement back to us to take care of some of the storm drainage issues. So, I don't know this anything we are asking for a freebee from the city—we feel like it's something that we already gave and it was discussed right up front, we've been very clear on that issue from the very beginning and had a fairly clear understanding of the city. If you go back on the preliminary plat and the preliminary drainage plans, it will show those areas subject of course to final design. Am I correct in that Gary? Smith: I don't recall the preliminary plat details, I'm sorry. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 7 Turnbull: I do. Rountree: This story line rings not necessarily true, but it's kind of hard to find the truth in all that's gone on over the last few years as it relates to the golf course. Turnbull: Sure. Rountree: I guess my concern is that and I guess we're back to discussion on this is that if we move forward with approval of these particular plats, that it certainly be conditioned that we have appropriate agreements with the developers as it relates to the drainage between the City, the developer in this case the operator of the golf course because we're under some contract obligations to that individual as well, and I don't think we as a City can even though it is our property approve a plat without the golf course's input on thing if it's going to have some bearing on their operation. Turnbull: Commissioner Rountree may I offer one thing that may help solve that problem. We will represent this and commit to this. Other than your normal mowing, trimming, and broad leaf control, is consistent with any golf course operation. We will agree to take care of like we've been discussing with Ada County Highway District the month to month light maintenance of the project and we actually have a draft that we have received some sample copies from the Ada County Highway District of those types of contracts. We prepared a draft. In fact I just received that today, which we will be submitting to the Ada County Highway District tomorrow, but our representation our guarantee to you is that the City other than those normal mowing, trimming and broad leaf control issues will not be responsible for the maintenance of those facilities. Rountree: And I appreciate that David. Turnbull: And I think speaking to the other part I think you know you say that what I spoke of rings true. I think that's memorialized in the fact that we already have three drainage facilities within the golf course. That's been part of the equation from day one and the first two phases have incorporated those drainage facilities at the approval of the City obviously. Rountree: I understand that as well, but I also want to point out that there have been issues as it relates to those facilities on an ongoing basis have taken a fair amount of time and energy to resolve. Turnbull: I appreciate that, but I think you can understand that we've always stood behind what we've said and we've taken care of the problem and any problems that have existed, and I think those pictures that I submitted today and the calls that we've had from the residents out there attest to that. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 8 Corrie: Any questions? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Thank you Dave. Turnbull: Thank you. Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, you may want to ask the developer and Gary Smith whether or not it would be appropriate if you intend to make a condition of plat approval this one other point, which they've indicated they're willing to do as to whether or not it might be appropriate that that condition be that the final development plan show as a note on the plat that the agreement would be in existence. I mean the language for that I think would be developed but with Public Works and with the developer, because I that final development plan will have to be resubmitted for your signatures before they record it. Smith: Mayor and Council I guess a note to that effect could be added to the plat as opposed to the development plans. The development plans are not recorded, but the plat is and if it's your wishes to have that as a matter of record, then it might be appropriate to put that requirement on the plat. So it is of record. Gigray: Mr. Mayor with your permission, my point would be that would be notice to buyers and it would be a little more up front and as I understood the comments by the developer as they intended this would be a homeowner association responsibility so it might be good to have it there. Corrie: Any other questions? Discussion of Council? Rountree: I just have a question for Bill and other one as it relates to us imposing something on an individual who leases property from the City and not having them involved in at least getting an opportunity to review that activity may impact their lease and their operation. Could they then come back on the City and say well you've created an undue hardship on me and here's a bill for remedy. Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, Councilman Rountree, to answer your question, it may be prudent to review the lease agreement that you have with the golf course to find out what right they have there and then also to seek their permission as to whether or not this is something they object to. If they have the right of possession, it would affect their rights, could. The one other issue that you have to be concerned about is we need to double check the time table for which the final plat approval was originally submitted to the Council Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 9 for consideration because we have a 45 day requirement under the terms of the ordinance. If you sought to table to get one more input. Corrie: Mr. Clerk do you know the answer to that one? We're putting you on the spot I know, but do you have idea when that needs to be done? Gigray: I think it would run from the original date that the mater came before the City Council, so it would be something that would start running when the final plat was submitted for Council consideration. Was that in October? Bird: Yeah, 10/6. Rountree: That could be a condition of approval as well. Gigray: Well the problem with that is that if you didn't obtain the permission of the Lessee who in your opinion had the right to object, then I don't know what that does to your decision making on this if they won't agree to that and what that does to their development. That would be a concern to me. Rountree: I guess I'm not so concerned that they won't agree to it. I'm concerned that they don't know about it or they might know something about it, but haven't had an opportunity to submit any information on it. There's work grounds to make it work. I mean there may be a design modification that makes it work with an established irrigation system in the golf course. I don't know if there's a control box say where part of this drainage facility might be. Gary can you answer that question? Do you know what infrastructures at these locations? Smith: No, I don't Councilman. Rountree: And a lot of that stuff on the golf course is kind of an unknown. We don't have as built plans. Smith: Right there may be some irrigation lines that we seem to find every time ground is disturbed outside the right-of-way. I just don't know right off hand. Corrie: Well we're at 42 days I'm told. Gigray: You might ask the developer's representative whether or not they'd be willing to waive that to bring it back with that information or not. If they don't, then that means they force the issue for you to make a decision whether you grant subject to conditions or deny it. Rountree: But you are indicating a condition of that nature would — Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 10 Gigray: In my opinion and my recommendation, I think a note on the plat makes it a little easier for subsequent owners to understand when they have a responsibility that they don't readily see by the fact that they are buying a lovely home on a golf course. That's my point. Rountree: There's not a question on that. The question is as it relates to the golf course lease arrangements. Gigray: I think it's a valid point that you raise. You're trying to make sure that we're not making a condition or granting a condition of approval that's beyond our authority because of the lease agreement, and I can't answer your question because I haven't read the lease agreement. Usually possession and the right of possession goes along with that. But if they consent and they don't have a problem with it. Or if there is a right for that that's already present as has been represented by the developer, we may be able to take the position that we can do it anyway. I just haven't researched those particular things and I can't give you an answer. Bird: Can we approve with a condition of that? Can that we a condition on approved? Gigray: It could be. The only thing that bothers me about that is that we're talking about drainage. We're talking about probably the right for them to construct a road. It may be a condition that is imposed on them by the Ada County Highway District if this is a road that is going to be publicly maintained, and if it doesn't have drainage highway districts tend to get a little nervous about accepting roads and so it just gets to be a bunch of dominoes. Corrie: Bill did I hear you say something about the right of the developer would waive the 45 — Gigray: I thought you might inquire of the developer of what his position is and certainly he has a right to be informed of what his rights are and that is to have a decision made within the 45 day period. Corrie: Dave? Turnbull: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, it would seem to me that this is something that really has to be worked out at a staff level anyway and probably with some review from legal and public works department. It would be my preference that the plats be approved tonight with those conditions in place. I think these are obviously things that are easily worked out and typically we don't work design issues out at the City Council level. That's left up to the staff to take care of. So if the Council feels comfortable with letting staff take care of the Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 11 minutia I would prefer that we just move it along and let them do that with the appropriate conditions attached. Gigray: Mr. Mayor can I comment on that? As the City Attorney, I'm certainly willing to do whatever the Council directs and the Mayor directs and of course the developer has indicated his willingness to work with staff. I can tell you that my preference as your city attorney is not to do that on final plats, because that's the final action and then these have to come back for your signature and if somebody isn't happy with the note or it doesn't do what they said they were suppose to do and somebody comes back and complains about it, I think it can create a problem. If it's worked out what it's going to say, the final plats approved without conditions I think is a far more preferrable process. But we'll do what you direct. Rountree: I guess I would like to hear David's response to the question about waiving the 45 days for maybe another two weeks. Turnbull: I really don't mind the 45 days so much although we've already been deferred 42 days, which is a rather long deferral anyway. I've never seen a final plat of any sort in any city approved without conditions. There are always condition that have to be worked out. I've never seen you know if we come back here in 120 days and want to get your signature on the final plat and we haven't met those conditions, then it just flat out doesn't get approved, it doesn't get signed off. If you want to give me plats without conditions I'll be glad to take them, but I've never seen one. Corrie: I understand that. There is a problem you probably don't see here, but okay. Turnbull: I mean the 45 days isn't a big deal to me. I just don't want to be deferred another 42 days and you know we're just sitting here spinning our wheels over little things that I don't think the Council members would rather have the staff level take care of them. It's obviously entirely up to the Commission. I'm not going to buck you one way or the other on this. I just think it's normal to have conditions placed on a plat and then we go through and work out with your staff those conditions to their satisfaction. If we don't get their satisfaction, they come back to you and say we can't recommend signing the plat, and signing the plat is really the final action. Gigray: Mr. Mayor just a point of information you may clarify with the developer. I don't think you are going to need 45 days. I just wanted to clarify that he has a right to have you make a decision in 45 days. I could assume this could be resolved by the very next meeting. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 12 Bird: What's the 45 days? The 45 days started October 6t". So we're 42 down. We got three more days before he has to extend. Gigray: Correct. Corrie: Well the developer would like to have it done tonight. City Attorney asked that it not have conditions on it, so — Rountree: Mr. Mayor I would move that we approve the final plat conditioned on staff's comments, the resolve of a plat note that would indicate the maintenance of these drainage ponds or basins within the golf course as it relates the homeowners and that the final design of these drainage basins be reviewed and accepted by the operator of the Cherry Lane Golf Course. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree and second by Mr. Bird that we approve the final plat with the conditions as stated. Any discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 2: FINAL PLAT FOR ASHFORD GREENS NO. 4 BY BRIGHTON CORPORATION — PORTION OF THE W'/2 OF THE'/2 OF SECTION 3, T.3N., R. 1 W: Corrie: Staff any additions or comments to this item number? Smith: I have none Mr. Mayor. Stiles: I have none. Corrie: Council any questions? Bentley: I have none. Bird: I have none. Corrie: Okay I will entertain a motion on item number two. Rountree: Mr. Mayor I move that approve the item number two final plat for Ashford Greens No. 4 with subject to the conditions of staff that appropriate language for a note on the plat as it relates to the maintenance and operation of the drainage ponds on the golf course be resolved and placed on the plat and Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 13 that the final design and location of the drainage ponds be subject to review and approval of the operator of the Cherry Lane Golf Course. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bird to approve the final plat of Ashford Greens No. 4 with the conditions as stated. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 3: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR VARIANCE FOR WHITESTONE ESTATES NO. 3 BY WHITESTONE DEVELOPMENT COMPANY, LLC — SOUTH OF FRANKLIN ROAD AND WEST OF LINDER ROAD: Corrie: At this time I will open the public hearing and I will invite the staff comments first. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this is for a preliminary plat that has already been approved. We're a little backwards having the variance come after the approval of the plat. When they redesigned the project to accommodate the elementary school site south of this project, they had a little problem on the frontages. The lots are large, but they do not meet the minimum 40 foot chord requirement of our ordinance. I guess I would like to hear some suggestions from the applicant. If maybe they could propose a shared driveway for those two lots or something that might work a little better with that and decrease chord length on those two lots. Corrie: Gary anything at this point? Smith: No, I have no other comments Mr. Mayor. Corrie: Since a public hearing, I'll invite the representative from Whitestone to speak first. Are they here this evening? Mr. Eddy. CHARLES EDDY WAS SWORN BY THE CITY ATTORNEY. Eddy: Mayor and City Council as Shari stated this preliminary plat was revised from the initial submittal to accommodate Ada County Highway District's request for a turn around that you see in front of you. In doing that, the lots 11 and 12 needs to be restructured to accommodate the new turn around and the new right- of-way configuration. The frontages for the two lots are less than 30 feet on the chord, however a typically driveway being 20 feet in width would fit within that 25 feet very easily. There just be a limited amount of grass at the very edge of the Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 14 right-of-way. As you can see the plat, the lots v out pretty quickly and become wider so the visual effect that you would see is just the concrete drive up front with maybe a strip of grass and then as it goes back towards where the house would be placed you'd have the landscaping. Our request for the variance is due to the fact that we revised the plat to accommodate Ada County Highway District as well staff's comments. So I believe that a shared driveway would not be necessary in this particular instance. Is there any questions that you might have? Corrie: Council any questions? Rountree: What are the resulting lots sizes square footage wise? Eddy: I don't have that off the top of my head. I couldn't tell you. (Inaudible) Stiles: I don't have the sizes here, but they at least appear to be over the 8,000 minimum. Eddy: I can guarantee they are over 8,000. Rountree: I have no other questions. Corrie: Is there anyone else from the public that wants to issue testimony in favor of this variance? (End of Tape) Corrie: Is there anyone here that would like to issue testimony in rebuttal of this, not in favor? Council, questions, discussion? I need a motion to close the public hearing. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move that we close the public hearing. Anderson: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second to close the public hearing on item number three. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: Any further discussion? Rountree: Question procedurally. We need Findings of Facts on a variance. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 15 Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, point of information you should have in your packet a memo from me that just outlines Findings and the procedure relative to a variance and the Council action for consideration is at the tail end of this, and I also have a recommendation just for point of information that you might want to consider at some point an ordinance change because the permit can be granted at the P & Z level. This doesn't even go under your ordinance to P & Z. It starts here. That's a matter of your discretion as to whether or not you would want to make any moves in that direction, but we would have to do Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law before you finalize this. Corrie: I think if I'm not mistaken Mr. Gigray, it's the first one there. After deliberations completed under your public hearing matters. Is that correct? Gigray: Oh, yeah, and I was referring to this memo that went with item number 3. But yes, you are correct. That would be the motion. Corrie: If no further discussion I'll entertain a motion on the variance. Rountree: I have to read the new directions first. Gigray: Mr. Mayor with your permission a point of information. Just as an aid to the Council, I've just submitted a memo to you for consideration as a possible way you may want to frame motions in relation to this type of matter. I believe it would be appropriate at least in those motions when you direct the Findings that you let me know how you want those findings to go. In other words this memo here this item number three is a criteria of your ordinance for granting a variance and if you feel the presentation has met that criteria then you would simply state that it is and you would direct me to do Findings and Conclusions in accordance with a finding that a variance should be granted. If you feel it should be denied, then you'll tell me about that as well, but I'd have to do Findings for your consideration the next meeting either way. Rountree: Mr. Mayor I move that we direct that Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order be prepared in accordance with the application and that the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law reflect favorably upon the request for granting a variance having met and (inaudible) that does not appear to be contrary to public interest. And there were special circumstances as it related to the school on ACHD's requirements in order for the applicant to strictly adhere to the City ordinances. Bird: Second. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 16 Corrie: Motion is made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bird to have the attorney draw up the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law as stated. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion? MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 4: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR PROPOSED TERRA TOWNHOUSE SUBDIVISION BY JIM HICKS — EAST OF W 7T" AND SOUTH OF IDAHO: Corrie: I'll open the public hearing and have staff report. Shari? Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this is for an existing townhouse development apartment complex at 7t" and Idaho. Idaho dead ends there. They have submitted for the preliminary plat and the conditional use permit because they didn't meet all the requirements of the ordinance for the zone that it's in. It's in a R-15 zone. I think it provides a good opportunity for home ownership for people that may not otherwise be able to afford it, and staff has no problems with the request and would recommend approval. Corrie: This is a public hearing request. Would the developer like to issue testimony in this item? BOB UNGER WAS SWORN BY THE CITY ATTORNEY. Unger: Mr. Mayor and Council, my name is Bob Unger. I'm with Pinnacle Engineers and we represent the applicant on this. Our address is 870 N. Linder Road, Suite B, Meridian, Idaho. As staff reviewed, what we're proposing is to take two existing four plexes and convert them into townhouses which would be 8 living units. Included with that there are each unit has an individual carport and that would also one individual carport would be tied to each one of the individual townhouse units. We are requesting zero lot lines since it is already — the structures are already built. The area that I have in gray over there, that's our concrete patios and driveway parking area and sidewalks. The area in green is landscape areas and grassy areas for recreational use within the development itself. That would be lot 9 is actually the dedicated open space. We have provided covenants for the use and maintenance of the open spaces. And I believe a copy of that was provided in your materials. We are also as required ACHD providing a cross access agreement for the use of the driveway and parking area. The property in the area or surrounding this is all zoned R-15 and it's made up of duplexes and four plexes similar to what we have currently on the site. Each unit will be provided with individual utilities which include sewer and water. In fact those were specific requirements by your staff and public works department. We feel that since this is an existing facility that there should be no adverse impact on the surrounding, the streets or the services. In fact we feel Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 17 that probably that under individual ownership it will probably be less impact on the area in that individual ownership usually see better maintenance of the buildings and the area there. We have reviewed the comments from staff and we have no problem with compliance with those comments. And we ask for your approval and I'm open for questions. Corrie: Questions from Council. Bird: I have none. Bentley: I have none. Rountree: I have none. Anderson: I have one. How do you do zero lot lines and how do you take into consideration that carports I guess. Is that going to stay going to stay a common area, the carports? Unger: No, the carports we will tie — let's say for instance we will tie lot number one to lot number eight which is one of the carport lots. Those will be tied together under one ownership and then lot 2 and lot 7 and so forth. So in other words for each dwelling unit lot there will also be an accompanying carport lot. Anderson: So in fact there will be two lots then. Unger: Right. Each individual will own two lots. Correct. Anderson: Then how are you going to accomplish the separate utility hookups for each one? Are they going to be re -dug and new meters and all that? Unger: Yes, sir. Anderson: Okay. I have no other questions. Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council just a point of information. I have a little memo on this item that I've distributed as well. One of the things I point out my reading of the transcript and minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission as they approved this preliminary plat and I didn't see any conditions on the approval. I'm hearing the developer say that there may be staff comments which they are in agreement with. You may want to clarify with staff whether or not there are comments that should be conditions of plat approval so that we clarify at this point where we're headed in that regard. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council I would just ask that you incorporate the conditions in our memorandum dated August 7th, 1998 as conditions of the plat. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 18 Gigray: Mr. Mayor just a point of information procedurally you may ask the developer if that's what he understood the conditions were. Unger: Mr. Mayor and Council just for clarification, we have general comments one through four which is on page one of your — the memo and then we have site specific comments one through five. I just want to clarify which ones we're talking about. Actually I see no problem with any of the one through four or one through five so we're fine with that. Rountree: And that's the August 7t" memo? Unger: Yes, sir. Corrie: Is there anyone else from the public who would like to issue testimony in support of the item number four? Hearing none, is there anyone from the public who would like to issue testimony in this? TERRAL JERRITT 624 W. BROADWAY, MERIDIAN WAS SWORN BY THE CITY ATTORNEY. Jerritt: Okay on the Joyson property next to those townhouses is a vacant lot, and that property I was told is zoned R-15 by a man. His name is Ron Walsh, and he's definitive property owner. He is telling us that this piece of property that's next to those townhouses is going to be wanting to have a triplex put in there. That lot, I'm not real sure how wide it is, but the house to the east of that is Clarence Conner's place and we're directly to the west of that. Do you have one of these that you mailed out to us? The "x right here is where we live. This is the townhouses that they wanted to subdivide out and this piece of property goes clear up here. I'd like to discuss this because it's been surveyed to the new survey. (Inaudible) Well I have nothing else to say. She told me I was in the wrong place. Rountree: Probably in the right place, maybe the wrong time. Corrie: Is there anyone else from the public that would like to issue testimony in opposition to this request for preliminary plat? Hearing none, Council? Bird: I have none, but I will make a motion to close the public hearing. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bird second by Mr. Anderson to close the public hearing. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 19 Corrie: Discussion of Council? Rountree: I have no particular comments, Mr. Mayor, I would move that we approve the preliminary plat for item number four Terra Townhouse Subdivision subject to staff conditions as indicated in the August 7t", 1998 memorandum to the applicant. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bentley to approve request for preliminary plat subject to staff conditions as stated in the motion. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 5: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR 8 ZERO LOT LINE TOWNHOUSES IN TERRA TOWNHOUSE SUBDIVISION BY JIM HICKS — EAST OF W. 7T" AND SOUTH OF IDAHO: Corrie: At this time I will open the pubic hearing. Any further comment from staff? Stiles: No further comment, Mayor. Corrie: Since this is a public hearing, anyone would like to issue testimony in approval of this request for conditional use permit? You can just say the same thing if you want. I would like for you to come up here because it's a public hearing so they can get it on record. Thank you. Gigray: I can just ask him to acknowledge that he's still under oath for purposes of this hearing. Corrie: You are still under oath for purposes of this hearing. Your name please. Unger: Yes, sir I understand. Once again my name is Bob Unger with Pinnacle Engineers. We represent the applicant and our address 870 N. Linder Road, Suite B, Meridian, Idaho and we would just like to go on record as saying we reiterate what we said on item number four. Rountree: You have seen the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and conditions? Unger: Yes I have. Rountree: You have no questions or concerns? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 20 Unger: We have no problems with it whatsoever. Rountree: Thank you. Corrie: Is there anyone in the public that would like to issue testimony in opposition to this conditional use permit? Hearing none, Council, I'll entertain a motion for closing the hearing. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move we close the public hearing. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second that we close the public hearing. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: Public hearing is now closed. Discussion from Council? Bentley: I have none. :3R�MI1"rFOX iL7iL-3 Rountree: None. Corrie: I will entertain a motion on the request for conditional use permit. Bentley: Mr. Mayor the Meridian City Council adopt the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law as submitted by Planning and Zoning. Rountree: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley second by Mr. Rountree to approve the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law as submitted by the Planning and Zoning Commission. ROLL CALL VOTE: Bird, yea. Bentley, yea. Rountree, yea. Anderson, yea. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Gigray: Mr. Mayor point of procedure for the record can we also would the Council consent that we could prepare the appropriate order granting the conditional use permit for the Mayor's signature as administrial act. What we're proposing to try to do with all these conditional use permits is that we'll do a Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 21 separate order so that when people need to follow up on them, we don't have to hunt through Findings and everything else. We're going to try to start doing that with your permission, and I just thought I would clarify that. Make sure we're not out of bounds here. Bentley: That was my next question. Corrie: Do we need a separate motion to that affect? Gigray: I think the — was it Councilman Rountree that made the motion. Rountree: Mr. Bentley. Bentley: Yes, that would be fine with me. Mr. Mayor, Mr. Gigray in the future do we just incorporate this all in one motion? Gigray: I have this little handout here was just designed to be a little aid in that regard and these as a matter of follow up would just authorize the Mayor to do it because under the open meeting law, we have a provision that ministral acts are not required to be done in an open meeting. I think we can take advantage of that provision and if you make a specific directive in the motion, I think it clarifies that that's going to happen. I've been involved in hearings where Findings have been issued by person that we're done in an open meeting or wasn't even given authority to do it. I think it raises an issue, but I think if it's part of the motion it clarifies it completely and I think for follow up and code enforcement and whatever, it's going to be a lot easier to just have a separate order on the permit. And we can just have the Mayor sign it without having to fuss with coming back here again. Bentley: My question being on — you list four steps. Do you want all four steps to be included in the motion? Gigray: I think I would appreciate it, but I mean that's what I would propose we do. Bentley: Okay thank you. Corrie: I guess I need clarification Mr. Gigray. Do we need the decision and recommendation now? Or is that just part of the -- Gigray: Well that's what you are actually doing, because you're adopting Findings and Conclusions Order of Decision. That's what you are doing and that's what that motion that was already passed did was part one. Corrie: We'll get the hang of this City Council — Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 22 Bentley: So you need a motion on the decision since we didn't incorporate that. Gigray: I think at some point when you are comfortable with this. If you are you can start making these motions like this. If you want to start now, that's going to be a matter of your own decision. Rountree: Mr. Mayor this is all a new learning experience for us with new legal counsel and we are changing history or we are setting new precedence for the City Council. The last Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law that we dealt with were actually Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision and we made motions as it related to that. This particular Findings and Facts is consistent with the procedure and format that we are accustomed to from past practices and from the previous attorney. I guess that's getting a little confused. We have this format and the last time we had a different format. I fully appreciate your help and direction on this, but it would help us from stumbling along I think if at least the format of the documents would come durressed and then the motion — the motion in fact would have been motion for Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision. Historically we've done two motions to get that accomplished and what we're talking about now is one motion to accomplish several things. So we're all learning and we'll figure this out, but I can see Glenn's confusion because I wasn't sure where we were going either. Bear with us. We're going through a process that is new to all of us. Bentley: Mr. Mayor and also we're working off the old style, trying to incorporate the new style. So when we get P & Z up to the same spot then everything will flow together. So do we need any more motions on this? Just to clean it up. Bird: We need a decision and recommendation. Bentley: Okay let's do this. Mr. Mayor, I would make a motion that — I don't know. That the City Attorney prepare the appropriate permit and order and confirmation with this decision that the Mayor be empowered to sign the same administrial act as necessary to carry out this decision and that the City Clerk serve a copy of the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision and the permit order upon the applicant and the Planning and Zoning Director and any interested party requesting notice of decision. :1I�•iE. - . • •.1 Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley and second by Mr. Bird. Any further discussion on the motion on the floor? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 23 Corrie: Now we're moving ahead. ITEM NO. 6: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST TO AMEND CITY ORDINANCE, FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND THE DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT FOR TROUTNER BUSINESS PARK BY TROUTNER BUSINESS PARK DEVELOPMENT CORP. — S. WEST FIFTH AVENUE, SOUTH OF FRANKLIN AND WEST OF MERIDIAN ROAD: Corrie: I will now open the public hearing and staff? Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this is a request from the applicant. I have been working with them to remove the requirement for a conditional use permit on every lot in the Troutner Business Park. They have agreed to retain the conditional use requirement for the limited office lots that are adjacent to the single family residential development to the west. This was initially annexed with a conditional use permit requirement on every lot. However they are shown in the Meridian Comprehensive Plan as existing urban area, and I think with the quality of the development that is taking place and will be taking place, and the covenants that are in place for that subdivision. I felt it was in the city's best interest to remove that requirement to not impede the development of that subdivision. Corrie: Any questions of staff at this point? Since it is a public hearing, I invite the — is anybody here from Troutner this evening that would like to issue testimony. Mike are you out — he had his little girl with him. She might have decided to go to bed. Is there anyone else from the public who would like to issue testimony in favor of the request number six? Hearing none, is there anybody from the public who would like to issue testimony opposing item number six? Okay, hearing none, I'll entertain a motion from Council for public hearing closure. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move that we close the public hearing on item number six, Troutner Business Park. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second that we close the public hearing on item number six. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: Council discussions? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 24 Rountree: Mr. Mayor we've seen this application I think it was two additional times in the past and I think it's something that we had general agreement on and passed on to Shari thank you for seeing the need to do this in assisting the developer in this particular situation. Having said that I would move that City Council amend the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law number 13 and 14 of the annexation and zoning of the subject property and that the development agreement dated April 29th, 1997 be amended to reflect that change. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bird to the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law on the request as stated. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: Does this require a roll call vote? This one might. We can. Let's go back and do a roll call vote. ROLL CALL VOTE: Bird, yea. Bentley, yea. Rountree, yea. Anderson, yea. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: I want to thank the public for being very patient with us. We're learning more as we go through here. ITEM NO. 7: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR LAKE AT CHERRY LANE NO. 8 BY STEINER DEVELOPMENT — PORTION OF NW 1/4 SEC. 3, T.3N., R.1 W: Corrie: At this time I will open the public hearing. Staff, comments from Shari Stiles. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this development is basically the same as it was when it was initially proposed by Brighton Corporation. This is the area where the water line does need to be extended to loop to the Ashford Greens property. One item that wasn't discussed at the Planning and Zoning level and I did some more research on it to find out where we were on tiling the ditch. Brighton Corporation had submitted a variance application for the Safford Lateral and the Eight Mile Lateral on properties they had under option at that time. The variance was never acted on and the last discussion that was held at City Council was Councilman Rountree had brought up the fact that this was to be part of the clubhouse area and the parking area and they wanted to figure out exactly how that was going to be developed to make sure that they corrdinated the proper Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 25 construction on those areas. This what you see on the plat as lot 24, which is the Eight Mile Lateral Easement. That is in fact the area that will be part of the — or was proposed as part of the parking lot for the clubhouse. Now if they just proposed to just fence that off, I think it may provide some problems. I don't know what kind of agreement has been made with Wally Lovan on development of that site, but a variance has not been granted on this. I noticed from Mr. Gigray's note, he said that a variance would need to be applied for and the last indication I had on the variance the tiling of ditches variance was that that did not require a variance application to be filled out. It could be waived by the Council without going through the variance. But if that's changed, let me know. That is the main issue for this project. I don't know if Gary has some more comments on that. Smith: I have no other comments, Mr. Mayor and Council. Corrie: Any questions for Shari? Rountree: Not at this time. Gigray: Just to clarify you got a copy of my memo. I just ask a question and is it and I think that she's answered that it isn't. I didn't say it was. Corrie: Is there anyone else from the public that would like to issue testimony in favor of this or is the developer is here. Mr. Eddy. CHARLES EDDY 1295 S. EAGLE FLIGHT WAY, BOISE, IDAHO WAS SWORN BY THE CITY ATTORNEY. Eddy: I present to you today, Mayor and City Council members a somewhat unusual project for the Steiner Development Corp. in that it's zoning compliant. Rountree: Can we make a bumper sticker on that? Eddy: The project is in fill between the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 4 and Ashford Greens development. The sewer is already installed. As Shari stated the water line will need to be constructed with this development as well as the curb, gutter and streets. The current zoning is R-4. All the lots meet the minimum standards. In relationship to the common lot, lot 24, I'm not sure which design Shari was referring to with the parking lot. I wasn't aware of any parking being utilized on this particular area. This is part of a —this entire area was broken up into numerous parcels with the golf course and Ashford Greens development . This particular parcel is as you see here was one description. So I'm not quite sure where the parking came from and I know as being involved in trying to figure out where the clubhouse is going to go and where the parking is going to go that we — I went through many iterations on how that was going to come out. As with the Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 26 tiling of the ditch, it's my experience in the past that the City Council has waived tiling of ditches a number of being used is usually being 48 inches or greater. The size of a pipe required. The Eight Mile Lateral is quite a bit larger than what a 48 inch pipe would hold, and we would request that the tiling of that ditch be waived in accordance with what the City Council has done in the past. I'd be happy to entertain any questions you might have. Bird: I have none. Rountree: I have a question about the small vicinity map on the plat. The area that's identified as the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 4 Subdivision, the southern portion of that seems to include what now is part of the golf course. Eddy: That is correct in that plat there was a lot that was dedicated to the golf course. I think it's currently number two. Rountree: Yes. And potential location for part of the new clubhouse facilities. I just wanted to get that cleared up. Eddy: I think the part that's directly south of lots 20-23 was probably where the golf clubhouse is going to be. Rountree: We don't have any greens in these lots, do we? Eddy: No, sir, we don't. Rountree: You did this survey? Eddy: Number 4? Yes. Rountree: And the one we have is a point of reference from past development was actually a surveying layout done by Hubble, and it does in fact that area of Eight Mile Drain being incorporated in the area that would be the eventual that whole corner there at the intersection of those two streets. Eddy: Is this the initial preliminary plat that Hubble submitted for this development? Rountree: Yes. Eddy: I could state that that as far as the golf course was concerned and parking and the clubhouse that that went through numerous revisions in working with Wally and trying to get everything to fit in there with parking and the clubhouse. I don't know to be honest I don't know where that finally ended up. I guess Wally Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 27 would be the one because he was looking out for his best interest in the golf course. Rountree: Well the other issue that related to that and I don't know if it has any bearing on this subdivision or not but I think it may is that there was at least a portion of that Eight Mile Lateral that was to be tiled in order to have continuity between the parking lot and the golf course. As it is now, there is no provision for linking the two. I'll bring that up for discussion later, but can you relate anything to that? Has there been any position stated by your employer on what their desires are for Eight Mile Lateral other than a variance to tile the entire section? Eddy: They would desire not to tile it. And I have not heard any discussions from Wally concerning any type of parking on that and Steiner the Campbells, Bob and Doug have not communicated to me any questions that Wally might have on his parking for the clubhouse. Rountree: Okay that's all I need. Corrie: Questions? Bird: I have none. Bentley: I have none. Corrie: Anyone else from the public who would like to issue testimony in favor of this request? Hearing none, is there anybody from the public who would like to enter testimony in opposition to this? Okay, I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move we close the public hearing on item number 7. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bird second by Mr. Bentley to close the pubic hearing on item number 7. Any further discussion? Bird: Mr. Mayor I would like to ask staff if the only thing in Planning and Zoning come out was a condition that City Council waives the tiling of the ditch requirement. Was there any other conditions out of staff regarding that? Stiles: The only comments that we have were contained in our memo of October 7th, 1998. Bird: Is that in our packet? I don't have anything in my packet from October 7th Shari. Yeah, I see it here. Mr. Eddy have you seen that? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 28 Stiles: Mr. Eddy has seen it and responded with a letter dated October 131H 1998. Eddy: You are speaking to the staff comments? Yes, we did receive them and we did respond to them. My only request reading through the comments was number one general comments concern the ditch. (End of Tape) Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council on these plats, I guess when we go through these comments, and we have the statement at the beginning of our comments that these conditions should be considered in full unless expressly modified or deleted by motion of the Meridian City Council, we would like that to be a requirement of all of these developments that all staff and agency conditions apply unless they are expressly deleted by motion of the Council. I think it might make it a little — Bird: He say we can't do it. Stiles: Why? Gigray: The City Council is the governing body, not the Planning and Zoning Department. It's the City Council action that set forth approvals or denials or conditions, and that's the way your ordinance states. If you are going to amend your ordinance to provide that staff comments are automatically accepted unless excepted by Council action, we need to modify an ordinance to do that. And I would find that an unusual practice. Bentley: Mr. Mayor I call for a question. Corrie: Question has been called for. All those in favor of the motion say aye. Do I need to remind you what the motion is? Rountree: Please do. Corrie: That's to close the public hearing. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: The public hearing is closed. Now this questions and decisions. Bentley: I figured that was happening. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 29 Corrie: We'll get the hang of this. So we have a request for preliminary plat for Lake at Cherry Lane No. 8 by Steiner Development. Council what's your pleasure. Rountree: Mr. Mayor, I don't have any difficulty with the preliminary plat per say, but again it gets back to this issue of commitments that have been made and forgotten or commitments that somebody thought were made and have been misconstrued as it relates particularly to the tiling of Eight Mile Lateral and the operation and activities around the future clubhouse at the golf course. I think it has some direct bearing on this plat and/or commitments that may or may not have been made by the previous developer owners. I would like to see those issue resolved because I know they are going to come back to haunt us. And I would like to have that cleared up before I could recommend moving forward with the preliminary and ultimately the final plat. I guess my preference would be that it get done at the preliminary plat stage and that the developer, City Engineer, or Assistant City Engineer has been in some of these meetings with the golf course and the developers, sit down, hear what both the developer and the golf course and the City can best remember have been commitments made. Get that resolved, get it brought back to the Council, so we can get it in the record, and be done with it once and for all for both the benefit of the developer and possibly the city. But if for no other reason we get it on the record and get it done with so it doesn't become as it continues to be a perpetual problem for staff. Some of us Council members that have to listen to it all the time and the developers who are continually getting beat up over the thing, so I would like to consider tabling this and directing the developer and city staff to work with the golf course and resolve the issue as it relates to the operation of the future golf course clubhouse and what may or may not be an official record or promises made as it relates to the tiling of the Lateral and parking and be cleared up and bring it back. We can get that entered into the record and future Councils will at least have something to go by where this particular Council has nothing more than back room agreements and who knows what all that's gone on. It continues to be a mystery. Corrie: Mr. Bentley. Bentley: Mr. Mayor, thank you. I would agree with Councilman Rountree. This has been kind of a nightmarish project from the beginning, and the preliminary plat looks fine to me also, but I could not move on doing this until we have this ditch issue settled as far as whether it does or doesn't play into the parking area. So I would concur with his assessments. Corrie: Further discussion from Council? Bird: I have none. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 30 Anderson: I guess I agree with Councilman Bentley. I have no problem with the plat. If this issue is going to affect the clubhouse and the parking, I would like to get that resolved and on record before we vote on this. Corrie: I'll entertain a motion for the table either to the 1 St or the 15th of December if that's so desired. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move that we table item number 7, the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 3 by Steiner for not to go by 45 days and to require the developer, staff and golf course Lessee to work this Eight Mile Lateral problem out, and negotiate the items in accordance with 11-9-604E 5 Municipal Code. Rountree: I'll second that if you know what it is. Bird: I don't know what it is, but that's what it says here. Corrie: Motion is made by Mr. Bird second by Mr. Rountree that on the motion Mr. Bird. Discussion? Bentley: Mr. Mayor we're going to need a date as what we're going to table it to. But my question to staff is what would the time line be for them to possibly get this ironed out. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council we believe we could have a meeting scheduled and have results of that for your meeting on December 1 St Corrie: You can do it by December 1St Bentley: Then I would make a motion to amend it that it be prepared by December 1St, 1998. Corrie: You are just making a motion that it be done by then. Rountree: I'll second that. Corrie: Motion is made by Mr. Bentley to amend the motion to retable to 12/1/98 and second by Mr. Rountree. Any further discussion? Voting on the amendment motion, all those in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: We do have to vote on the original motion. Okay, all of those in favor of the original motion as stated, say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 31 Eddy: Mr. Mayor may I ask a question of City Council? Will the public hearing be reopened on December 1 St? Corrie: No. Eddy: And second of all is City Council or Mayor aware of what Mr. Lovan has done in the recent months as to the layout of the clubhouse and the parking? Corrie: As far as I know we haven't heard anything yet, but we hope we do by December 1St Eddy: Okay, thank you. Rountree: He's got something cooking. Bentley: Mr. Mayor I move we take a ten minute break. Bird: I'll second that. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley second by Mr. Bird that we take a ten minute break. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. (TEN MINUTE BREAK) ITEM NO. 8: REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A RETAIL CARPET STORE BY CLAY HARTZ d/b/a FASHION FLOORS AND INTERIORS — 126 KING STREET: Corrie: This item was on the agenda for Planning and Zoning Commission and according to the minutes the commission denied their request for their action under 11-2-418A and Hof the Municipal Code. Pursuant to the Municipal Code 11-2-418E there is no public hearing held before the City Council the subject of the property Old Town. Council you have before you an item from Mr. Gigray stating what can and should be done here. The recommendation that he had is decide whether to determine the matter on the record before us and we can make that decision and direct the legal staff to prepare Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and the Order of Decision. Or you have the choice to direct that a public hearing be held and provide notice in accordance with the ordinance requirements. So with that in mind, I'll leave it in your capable hands to — Mr. Gigray do you have any further comment on this? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 32 Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council I just tried to provide this informational memo and it addresses procedure only, and for those in attendance this isn't a comment at all on regarding any of the facts presented with this conditional use permit application. Because there are no Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law to adopt in this instance, you have as I understand it, I think you need to identify what record there is here that you would make your decision upon. If you seek to make a decision without a public hearing, and then you would deliberate on that information and announce what your decision is and direct me to prepare Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision. Bentley: Mr. Gigray so what you are telling me is these don't exist then. Gigray: No, I'm saying what doesn't exist that there are not Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision. I think what you have there isn't that the minutes of the proceedings? And so there's was recommendation from the Planning and Zoning Commission as referenced in the minutes of the commission recommending a denial of this application. We are required by state law the governing body, which you are, to issue Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision. So you can proceed to do that. From your review of what record there is in this particular matter and I recommend as a procedure in this instance where we're not holding a pubic hearing that you at least identify for purposes of this record what that is. To my knowledge it consists of the request and the minutes of the proceeding for the Planning and Zoning Commission and the Clerk may have a complete set of what the record is that was before the Planning and Zoning Commission. The reason I ask for the clarification is that if you direct me to prepare Findings, it is from that record of course which I will work to complete that process. Corrie: Shari, on this item 13 of Planning and Zoning, it says a public hearing request for conditional use permit for a retail store and then the back page it said the Counselor just said it's not an open meeting and it's not a public hearing. If you go and listen to it, it is not a public hearing where you can speak. I'm a little confused. Can you help me here? Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council what Chairman MacCoy was referring to is that the meeting today would not be a public hearing where they could offer additional testimony. Corrie: Okay, thank you. Rountree: I assume there is not discussion on this item so I will take a stab at this. I would move that we direct legal staff to prepare Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order of Decision for this item that reflects the recommendation from Planning and Zoning and incorporates the public Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 33 testimony that was received at the Planning and Zoning Commission public hearing. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bentley to direct the attorney to draw up the Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law to reflect the meeting of the Planning and Zoning and reflect the decision of the Planning and Zoning. Any further discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 9: REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR GENERAL AUTO REPAIR & SERVICE BY JOHN BISS — WEST OF MERIDIAN ROAD: Corrie: I believe Council the reading this conditional use permit — Shari would you like to fill us in on this conditional use permit please. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this property was annexed with the Troutner Business Park because of the 50 foot easement that existed to Meridian Road that would go to the Troutner Business Park. The property was formerly owned by Norm Fuller, and he has sold off a parcel of ground to Mr. John Biss. One of the requirements of the annexation was that they enter into a development agreement and that they provide a minimum 35 foot landscape setback on Meridian Road. Mr. Biss is not particularly against providing that, but he is a little concerned that he'll be one of the few properties on that road that will be providing a 35 foot landscape setback, because everything else is already annexed. Across the street would be where Rick Thomas has his First Meridian Plaza. That's where Rockets Restaurant and Godfather's Pizza and Blimpie's are currently. I believe he is proposing as part of that plat, a 15 foot setback, so that was the only thing that Mr. Biss took issue with. We did have some letters from some of the developers in the City that have a problem with this particular use on the property. We did — the Planning and Zoning Commission did request that Mr. Biss come back with a more detailed site plan. He was showing a significant portion of the property as being undeveloped, and when asked at the Planning and Zoning Commission what he planned to do with that, he said well I'll just gravel it and park cars there. So we did ask that he come back with a detailed plan that if he was planning on having cars parked back there, that it would be paved and landscaped in accordance with the ordinance. There's also the issue of the easement that goes from Meridian Road back to the Troutner Business Park. Ada County Highway District had initially required that approximately $7500 be deposited into an account to get rid of the driveway a temporary driveway on Meridian Road and that when Pennwood was extended through the Troutner Business Park that he would take access off that Pennwood future road Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 34 extension. I believe they took out the requirement for the $7500. But it is still a temporary driveway on Meridian Road and at the time that Pennwood was developed they would need to change their access. Other than that I believe you have you should elevations of the building. He has agreed to reduce some of his signage as requested by Planning and Zoning. Gary may have an issue about the utilities. The utilities are apparently in Meridian Road and have been stubbed into the easement area, but I don't know what the plan is for extension of those. If they would go down the future Pennwood Street or down Meridian Road. And so that really hasn't been figured out who would pay for those. Even the construction of that portion of Pennwood Street, I know that Mike Balentyne of Troutner Business Park is not interested in paying the full cost for extending that street when the two properties closest to Meridian Road are going to be the ones that are benefiting from the most. That was kind of an issue with him. Bird: I got a question Shari. Planning and Zoning passed this with — you're stating a whole bunch of conditions. Their thing is just strictly pass to us with the setbacks and the landscaping is the only requirement. Stiles: I don't know that we made specific conditions as far as extension of the sewer and water and it is a problem. I don't know how it's going to be resolved as to who will pay for those things, but — Bird: Well that's something that we need to know now is what the staff feel about those conditions. They need to be part of this conditional use permit or at least I do. Stiles: I think part of the roadway issue that really has to do with Ada County Highway District and what their requirements are. I'd love to make it a requirement that they pay their proportionate share of extending curb, gutter, sidewalk and construction of the roadway through there, but I don't know if we can do that. Bird: Then I got a question for Mr. Gigray. To do this to change these conditions that don't coincide with what the Planning and Zoning Commission passed, you have to have another public hearing. Do you not? Gigray: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, Councilman Bird to answer your question, I don't know that you would to necessarily have a public hearing in order to do that, but I would say that if you were going to impose conditions as a condition of granting the use, that you will have to meticulously go through this record to determine what is appropriate conditions to be imposed or not imposed based on your assessment of the requirements of the ordinance as it relates to establishing those conditions. It sounds somewhat complex to me in listening to I think a good report by the Planning and Zoning Director and there may be some issues that you may want to at least hear what the applicant's position is and Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 35 what the merits of that position are and if you are not in a position to make that decision based upon reading the record that's before you alone, I do think you have the authority under the ordinance and inherently have the authority because you are the governing body of the City to set it for a public hearing before you make a decision to allow additional testimony. Bird: Thank you Mr. Gigray. Bentley: I have one follow up question for Shari. On this temporary entrance on south Meridian Road, is it my understanding that when Pennwood goes in that he would revert to Pennwood. Would he then take and complete the landscaping across the temporary entrance? Stiles: That wasn't specified as part of the conditions. Bentley: Say was or wasn't? Stiles: That was not a definite condition. Bentley: Well then how would we — Stiles: Chairman MacCoy indicated that he did state that he would be willing to do that. Bentley: My question would be if he didn't do that, how would you stop it from being an entrance? Stiles: Mr. Snead has the answer. Gigray: Mr. Mayor, point of procedure for the Mayor and Council. I think what we're getting into is a public hearing. I think in my opinion there's a lot of merit to having one, but I think if you are going to do it you need to advertise it and you have to give notice to affected property owners so they have an opportunity to address the questions as well if you are going to open it up. If you don't open it up and you decide on the record alone. Bentley: Mr. Mayor my feeling would be that this does need to go for a public hearing. We've got a lot of issues that are unanswered and both in the P & Z side. Public Works side and I have some questions too that I feel it should go before public hearing. Corrie: Any other comment from Council? Bird: I have none Mayor. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 36 Rountree: Just a direction to Shari in looking into this I don't know the date of this plat that I have in front of me that shows that area as N & D, Inc. ownership for the entire parcel and this particular lot appears to be split out of that entire ownership that goes across and includes the easement and that portion of that lot to the north. Has this been re -subdivided? Have they taken advantage of a one time split action and doesn't that have to be recognized by the city in order to do that? And I guess my last comment is that it seems be a bit too convenient to avoid the putting of a road through there into Troutner Sub. So yeah I agree. It ought to go back to hearing. That's I think something that you need to if you haven't already thought of be thinking about and when you are talking to be applicant. Stiles: We did request that they provide a warrant deed showing that they were eligible for a one time split. The city doesn't have an ordinance that allows a one time split, but we do follow the same procedure that Ada County as far as allowing that if it's in the same configuration as it was in April of 1984. Rountree: That's our option though. Stiles: Yes. I think staff would feel much more comfortable with this going back through a public hearing too because we have a lot of unanswered questions as well. Bentley: Mr. Mayor I'm not quite sure the wording on this, but I would move that we remand the request of John Biss for conditional use permit for general auto repair service to be remanded back to set up for a public hearing. Bird: Which body, the City Council? Bentley: The City Council. Bird: I'll second that. Corrie: Motion by Mr. Bentley second by Mr. Bird the request for conditional use permit for general auto repair service by John Biss be given a new public hearing by the City Council. And do we need a date certain on that? Bird: Yes, we do. Corrie: We need a date certain by — Bird: How long do we need? Gigray: You're going to have to give the 15 days notice. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 37 Bird: So it would be the second meeting in December. Corrie: The 15th of December? That's the second meeting. Rountree: Can't get the — Stiles: We have a whole lot of public hearings that night. Berg: The 15th is very full. Corrie: You better make it January. You got a full agenda the 15th? I think heard we did. A lot of public hearings, okay when is the next meeting in January then? January the 5th. To January the 5th, 1999 for a public hearing. Any further discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: City Clerk if you will notice the public hearing for the conditional use permit for January 5, 1999. ITEM NO. 10: REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY AND FINAL PLAT FOR PROPOSED FIRST MERIDIAN PLAZA BY WILD SHAMROCK PARTNERSHIP — SOUTH OF GEM AVENUE BETWEEN MERIDIAN ROAD AND E. 1 ST: Corrie: Shari. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council this is the — it was submitted as a preliminary and final plat. That's why it's come to you without a public hearing. This is the property that is directly across the street from the proposed John Biss project. It was held up a little bit at P & Z because some items were missing from the plat as well as we didn't have any covenants submitted. You'll notice in your packets that you do have I hope that you do have covenants. They're very sparse and don't really put any kind of restrictions on the development as far as what kind of construction or anything like that. I don't know if that is something that you want to think about. Mr. Thomas had proposed this development a long time ago back when he was working on the Godfather's and Blimpies. He does want to sell off these individual lots now. That's the reason for the plat. The canal has been fully piped. I don't know what kind of sewer and water issues are with this project, but — sewer and water is already in to serve the parcels. Rountree: It's just to establish one of those two lots on Meridian Road; right? Stiles: Yes, and then the existing lots or the lots where the existing buildings are. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 38 Gigray: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council and staff, I just point out again I had another memo which is addressing procedure on this one that prior action of the Planning and Zoning Commission that I could glean from the record was approval of the preliminary and final plat which can be recommended and you have an ordinance provision that specifically allows that. I would caution Mayor and Council that the Planning and Zoning Commission has no conditions whatsoever on it and you may want to elicit from staff what conditions go along with this because we are at the final plat stage, so that when I at your direction prepare the final the order of approval of final plat, we have the appropriate information in it. And if it's all in accordance with the plan that's before then I just want to clarify that we're doing what we need to do here, and if it is a conditional approval, I have to specify what the conditions are. Rountree: Mr. Mayor question I would have for Shari is as it relates to the frontage on Meridian Road for landscaping. If it's compliant with our ordinance since it's already annexed and ecetera, 15 feet of setback for landscaping. Stiles: Councilman Rountree, Mayor and Council the way our ordinance currently reads they could have as little as 4 feet. Rountree: Again that's our option. Stiles: Yes. Rountree: Do you have a recommendation? Stiles: I would like to see 20 feet, but another problem with this is that he had gone through some prior approvals where he based his whole development plan on providing that 15 feet. And a point was brought up at the Planning and Zoning Commission that a lot of it depends on how you landscape it. Somebody can have 50 feet of landscape setback and it doesn't look any better than somebody else that does 15. Bentley: Mr. Mayor I have a question for Shari. Do you remember discussions that were had with the Tom Scott properties back there with their landscaping on Meridian Road? Stiles: Yes. Bentley: What did we decide on that? Seeing that the question is in the air as to what was going to be done with that road. Stiles: I'm not sure what the setback ended up on that. I'd have to go back and look at their plan. We still do have bonding, a bond in place for that. I just can't recall what — how many feet it was. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 39 Bentley: I can't remember either. Thank you. Rountree: Gary, did you have any specific recommendations that you see as conditions on this? Smith: No, sir, I don't. Sewer has been extended across the north boundary of the property and serves the two buildings the complexes that presently exist there. Water is being stubbed through the development as it's taking place to be carried on around the south side of the boundary of the property, so I don't have any concerns with it. Rountree: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we approve the preliminary and final plat for this application Wild Shamrock for the first Meridian Plaza with the condition that a minimum of 15 feet of quality landscaping be provided on Meridian Road. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bentley to approve the preliminary and final plat for 1 st Meridian Plaza by Wild Shamrock with the conditions set forth by Mr. Rountree. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Rountree: If you would like a definite, what I meant by quality I could enter that into the record. Would that help? Do you need it in the form of a motion? Corrie: (Inaudible) Gigray: If you get the permission of the second, I would just restate the motion. Bentley: You have my permission. Rountree: Mr. Mayor I would restate the motion that we approve the preliminary and final plat for this application subject to the condition that it have a minimum of 15 feet of quality landscaping on Meridian Road, and by quality I mean that the landscaping be designed by a licensed landscape architect in the State of Idaho. That the landscaping be maintained in an aesthetic manner minus weeds and/or any litter and debris. Bentley: Second. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 40 Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bentley to approve the preliminary plat and final plat for the proposed First Meridian Plaza by Wild Shamrock Partnership with the conditions as stated by Mr. Rountree's motion. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ITEM NO. 11: APPOINTMENT OF DEPUTY CITY CLERK BY MAYOR: Corrie: At this time I would like to enter the name to be considered for Deputy Clerk position of Angel Sims, who is now employed in the City Clerk's office. Anderson: Mr. Mayor I would move that we appoint Angel Sims as the Deputy Clerk for the City of Meridian, authorize the Mayor to do that. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Anderson second by Mr. Bentley to approve the Mayor's appointment of Angel Sims as the Deputy City Clerk. Any further discussion? Rountree: In terms of performance of those duties, would that be evaluated and performance be judged by the Mayor or the City Clerk or a combination of both so if the appointment apparently isn't going to work out that we would know how the performance is going to be brought back to the Council and the Mayor. Corrie: I guess — Rountree: The individual at this point now is supervised by the City Clerk. Corrie: I would say that the appraisal would be by the City Clerk and then my appraisal would be of the City Clerk so he can have — Rountree: Well that's only fair. That's the chain of command. Corrie: Yeah. Rountree: I just want to make sure that there isn't an implied change in the chain of command. Corrie: Yeah, that's the way I looked at it. Rountree: Okay. Bird: I agree there. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 41 Corrie: Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Rountree: Now, she'll have to be sworn in by you? Corrie: Yes. Rountree: Okay. 12. DEPARTMENT REPORTS: 1. GARY SMITH: A. TABLED FROM NOVEMBER 4,1998: CHANGE ORDER FOR TULLY PARK Smith: Thank you Mr. Mayor and Council members, the first item is a change order number six for Tully Park. I think you all have a copy of that. It primarily has to do with changes that have occurred in the sprinkling system. There are six different items listed, and the justification is written below. Do you have any questions on any of those items? Bentley: It's like money in the bank. Rountree: It's my understanding that we have sufficient reserve held back to make sure that the landscaping and/or the sprinkler systems this next spring if there's a failure when they are really put to their test that we can get that fixed don't know that they probably had a fair work out this fall to see if the sprinkler system is really up to production service. Bird: You got a one year guarantee under the warranty. Smith: Typically the performance bond extends from one year beyond the date of substantial completion. Rountree: So we're covered there. Smith: Yes. Rountree: Mr. Mayor I would move that we approve the change order number six for Tully Park improvements in the amount of $10,468.85. Bird: I'll second it. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 42 Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bird to approve the change order for Tully Park in the amount of $10,468.85. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. B. ENGINEER AGREEMENT AMENDMENT FOR USTICK RESERVOIR —CONSTRUCTION ADMINISTRATION Smith: The second item I have is the amendment to our engineering agreement for the Ustick Road Water Reservoir. This is a contracted administration and construction and inspection amendment. The last three pages of the material that you should have in your packet show a break down of what services are proposed to be provided. Page one of one, which would be the first page of those three, it's titled SDC, that's services during construction. The next page is entitled inspection. I think I highlighted that with the yellow highlight, and I also made some written comments there as to the percentage of time that the inspector is expecting to be out there. These are estimates only. Based on contract time, they are estimating 54% of the time they would have an inspector on site. A lot of this depends on the contractor and their abilities and (End of Tape) Smith: ...we all have with that contractor, and I think in this particular case with McCalvain involved, that comfort level is pretty high. So I would expect that this would really be a very conservative number that they've inserted for the inspection. Bird: You don't expect to get any savings off — if you are saying it's a conservative. This is a real — or do you — Smith: When I say it's conservative, I mean — well I guess I should say liberal is the right word. It's very liberal. Bird: There's going to be some savings because of the quality of contractor we got on the job. Smith: Yes, correct, Councilman. I'm sorry. I meant to say liberal. Rountree: So this is not to exceed based on actuals. It's not a lump sum. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 43 Smith: Yes, sir. Rountree: It's not a lump sum. Bird: It's not to exceed Gary, or is that just an estimated budget tarry figure the hundred and nine, three, which those three add up to. Smith: It was meant to be — it's a budgetary amount as explained. It's a cost reimbursable compensation. Bird: Okay. So how do we make a motion? Smith: I think Councilman, Mayor and Council that would be a not to exceed number. Bird: Okay. Mr. Mayor I make a motion that we enter into this amendment to agreement with CH2M Hill to provide construction period services during construction of the Ustick Reservoir and Pumpstation. And not to exceed $109,300. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bird second by Mr. Bentley to approve the engineering agreement amendment not to exceed $109,300. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Rountree: When are they going to break ground on that? Smith: I know we've got all of the insurance information, and I believe the notice to proceed has been issued, but I can't give you a date Councilman. I don't know. (Inaudible) Rountree: And they've got how many days to complete? Smith: 240. Rountree: From the notice to proceed. Smith: Yes, sir. C. LICENSE AGREEMENT WITH NAMPA MERIDIAN Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 44 IRRIGATION DISTRICT FOR SEWER LINE CROSSING ON VAN AUKER SEWER PROJECT: Smith: The last item I have I would request you to table this to the next Council meeting. In reviewing the legal document that the irrigation district's attorney furnished, I noticed some inconsistencies in who was the responsible party on the license agreement, and I called their attorney and he acknowledged that there was inconsistency and he will have to revise that and resubmit it to us. Bird: Mr. Mayor I move that we table to December 1 st meeting the lease agreement with Nampa Meridian Irrigation District for sewer line crossing on Van Auker sewer project. Bentley: Second. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bird second by Mr. Bentley to table item 12, 1 C, license agreement with Nampa Meridian Irrigation District until 12/1/98. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. 2. TOM KUNTZ: A. MAKE UP OF PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION B. INTRODUCTION OF NEW RECREATION SUPERINTENDENT -ELI ROBERTS Kuntz: I would like to switch the order if I could and this may be a little redundant because she's met most of you over the last week or two, but I wanted to publicly introduce our new recreation superintendent, Elizabeth Eli Roberts. Bentley: Welcome. Corrie: Welcome to the City of Meridian. I think it's a good choice. Kuntz: The second item is just to let the Council know that the Parks and Recreation Commission has some dialog in their meetings the last month and then yesterday on visiting the ordinance that addresses how the commission is made up, and no decision was made last night, except to put a small subcommittee together to go through and look at the ordinance, come up with some possible recommended revisions to go to the City Attorney with, and then to the City Council at some point. The issue that they're looking at is the make up right now is decided or is made up of different entities having representation on the commission, and what the commission is looking at is having it open to Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 45 the general public so there are no dedicated seats thus hopefully getting I'm not sure how I want to say this. Councilman Rountree maybe should help me out here. Rountree: Enthusiastic and willing commissioners to do the job that needs to be done. Kuntz: Correct. The feeling of the commission was that the people appointed to represent the different groups were there because they were asked by the group, but maybe weren't really that interested in serving on the commission, and so the issue came to light last month and we discussed this yesterday, and they just want to give you a kind of heads up that they would like to bring that ordinance back to the Council at some point in the near future. Corrie: I think that's an excellent idea. Kuntz: That's all I have. Rountree: I'll just add my two cents in since I'm the liaison, but I think the dynamics of the group was good originally. Concept got going. The group is efficient enough and has done enough studying and visiting amongst communities that they've identified some warts in the ordinance, and we need to make some changes or suggest some changes to the Council for consideration. They will be doing that over the next few weeks and/or month and be making some recommended changes to the Council for consideration as to make up and also as to maybe some procedural things they feel need to be put down either an ordinance or bylaws so they can be empowered to function the way they need to function. Kuntz: I think that was the other question that they were tossing around is how viable does the Council look them as a commission, and they want to feel like the people they serve in the community is an important one and that the Council identifies that as an important body advisory only. Bird: I think that being a member of that at one time, I feel if they lived up to the ordinance, which we as a commission didn't do there's a lot of things in that ordinance that needs to be revisited. The standing seats is not big deal at all. think we need to look at Nampa, Boise's ordinance. I think we need a commission that the park director and those people report to and is part of the Parks and Recreation. Nine minds are a lot better than one. We all know that and Tom I know is in favor of that 100%. Kuntz: Thank you. 3. CHIEF BOWERS: Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 46 A. BUDGET CHANGES Corrie: Department reports number three. Did he go on a fire? Anderson: He hasn't been here all night. Corrie: Hasn't been here all night? Rountree: He had some stuff going on earlier. Corrie: I'll table that one. 4. CHIEF GORDON: A. BUDGET CHANGES B. SECURITY PROCEDURES FOR CITY HALL Gordon: A long time ago before this Council was sitting, the item of security was discussed as far as not City Hall, but the Council meetings and the Council Chambers. Within the last month or so we had another Mayor shot and another Council, and whacko with a gun come in. I know that doesn't — Mayors getting shot doesn't bother you guys, but — Bird: It depends on how close he's sitting to me. Gordon: They never did figure out who he was trying to shot, but the point was and there's no way that I'm going to stand up here and tell you that you can be totally perfectly safe forever and ever without a lot of paranoia so I guess what I basically am looking for is some direction. I know here recently Will has started locking this back hallway up and I think that's an outstanding idea. The only door left unsecured now is this one right here in the back. I would recommend that we go to the push button combination locks for this door and that one there and that way you don't have to worry about keys. You folks would have the combinations. In the daytime if they want to leave it open that's fine, but when you guys are sitting in Council, I think there needs to be a degree at least behind you that's secured. Rountree: You are talking about these immediate doors here? Gordon: Just that door right there and then the one over here. It goes down the hall which protects this door here, and like I say Will has been keeping this one locked. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 47 Rountree: The back, back door. Gordon: Well no, that's got to be left open. The one that just goes into the hall, right here. Just those two would secure that back area, and it would still allow you guys access in and out if you wanted to go to the restroom or coffee or whatever. And you wouldn't need a key. Keys tend to pose problems. The numbers the combination lock we have on the back door at the police station we change the battery once a year. Maintenance wise it goes four to five years with just a lot of use. And I think it would work for this door here. Bentley: I have a question on that. Why are we leaving this back door unlocked in the evenings? The outside door? Corrie: It locks automatically. Bentley: It's unlocked. Corrie: You mean the one next to the kichen? Bentley: No, I'm talking about the outside — Corrie: It's unlocked? Bentley: During Council meetings why is it unlocked? Well it shouldn't be. I've gone out at night sometimes and it's been unlocked. Bird: Well I'll guarantee you one thing. I've come through it and I haven't locked it back up when I'm in a Council meeting. You can put the blame on me. If you want the damn thing shut, we'll shut it. Bentley: I'm just saying if we're going to have security then the only doors that should be unlocked for public entrance is the front. Corrie: That makes sense. Gordon: Well security is up to you folks. Rountree: Is that compliant with fire code? (Inaudible) Gordon: And I don't know if we could put a combination on this one, because it's a panic bar exit also. We can lock it coming in. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 48 Anderson: We have one at our station that's combination on the outside, panic bar on the inside. Gordon: I guess I'm looking for a little direction. Whatever you guys want to do. That would be the only thing. If you want to get into bullet proof glass and bullet proof vest, I'd give you that report. But I think this is for the community that we're in I think is sufficient. Corrie: Council, do you have any objections to his recommendation? Bentley: I don't. Rountree: I agree. We probably ought to secure these back doors. And at least that way because I know on occasion you have to wrestle around back there because somebody is roaming around that you don't know who they are and you're right. It just takes one time. We might think it's silly, but it just takes that one time. Gordon: Nor can we stop every whacko in the world from ever getting there, but we can probably or maybe discourage somebody if it was just you know mad in here and went around the backside and couldn't get through. Corrie: Well the thing is also would add security to that side of City Hall. I know that Shari has had many times walked back there and interrupt her and they shouldn't be back there. And that would help that side of the building as well. Gordon: Here again I'm not advocating anything, but do you all know that as elected officials you have concealed weapons permits automatic? Rountree: With official I.D. you do. Gordon: You automatically have concealed weapons permits with photo I.D. because you are an elected official. Bird: I've never seen my photo I.D. Anderson: Can I get an I.D. from you? Gordon: Pauline has them. We've move that over to Human Resources. Rountree: Are they the same? Gordon: Yeah, and the next option is we also the department will provide firearms training, practice whatever you folks want to do. Just let me know or I'll give you notice next time we go out. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 49 Bentley: Can we go across the street? (Inaudible) Gordon: But anyway I'll start notifying all of you when we are going to go out to the range. We go out four times a year and you are welcome to come out anytime. Rountree: You go to Nampa or — Gordon: We've been going to Nampa. Bird: I'd like to do that. Can we bring our own guns? Gordon: Yes, sir. We prefer you bring your own unless it's machine guns or — Bird: 0-6 Automatics. Gordon: An automatic 0-6. They won't let us shoot those out there. Bird: Well mine is semi. Gordon: Handguns only, no rifles. Bird: No rifles or shotguns? (Inaudible) Gordon: Like everything else the houses have grown up and it's no longer just farm land. There's trailers and houses all over. Bird: Where are we going? Gordon: Over at Nampa range is what we've been using. When you start shooting rifles, they start complaining to the — Bird: I understand that. Gordon: But we have handguns. Rountree: That's a malitia training site. You can shoot anything you want out there including a Halitzer in U.S. Code. That is established in U.S. Code as a malitia training ground. That Nampa shooting range. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 50 Bird: The gravel pit? Rountree: F.D.R. established that. No, that F.D.R. Teddy Roosevelt. Gordon: The Mayor and Council have cut Nampa Police off, and they give us the rules, so we don't — it's really tough sometimes the geese fly right over there from Lake Lowell and control with these guys with handguns — Bird: Getting back to these Cennex locks. What are we looking at per door? Gordon: They're about $300 a piece. Bird: And this is a code? My= 15903111 M'[.1i1 Bird: The button code. Gordon: Four buttons. Bird: Yeah. Gordon: You can run them up anywhere from two to six buttons. It's up to you and you can change them. We change ours about three to four months. Every time change the janitors, we change the codes. But they are real serviceable locks. We get them right here locally through Meridian Lock and Key, Minuteman, and they service them for us. No problems. Bird: I'll make a motion. The two doors? Gordon: Yes, sir. Bird: I make a motion that we look into and that's a small enough item. We probably don't need a bid on do we? I make a motion that we put some Cennex locks on the south east door of the Chambers and also the one going into the hallway by the lunch room. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second that we install the button locks on the doors mentioned in the motion. Any further discussion? Bentley: Mr. Mayor does this come out of Roun's travel money? Rountree: It comes out of Keith's parking lot money. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 51 Bird: It comes out of what we call this is capital improvement. Anderson: Mr. Mayor clarification on the motion. It sound like they were talking interior doors and I thought we were also talking about the exterior door because of people leaving that unlocked. We could actually put the same type of system on that, and I actually prefer that because I'm one of the dumb guys that always forgets his keys. Bird: That's an exit there, and Ron you can — somebody can sneak in and get in there anyway. All you have to do is come in the front and run around and let somebody in because you have got to have a panic on that for life safety code. Anderson: You can still have the panic with these push buttons. Bird: Oh yeah you can have a panic. We do it all the time. We do this. Anderson: But even what we're doing now. We'd be doing the same thing, only instead of having a key, we'd have a push button. They can still do the same thing even with the key that we have is come around and unlock the door. Gordon: Yeah, I think what Councilman Anderson is looking at is that would eliminate any possibility of that door ever being unlocked. It would automatically lock itself from the outside so if you didn't have the code you'd have to go around to the front and yeah somebody could come around and let in, but — Corrie: That eliminates the back door entrance of anybody except that has the combination of that lock. Anderson: And it sound like the problem is we're forgetting to lock that sometimes and that would eliminate that. There's no way they forget — Bird: But then you've got employees and stuff that come in. Gordon: That wasn't the way that I was after was these two interior doors is what I was after, and I think if we maintain control on those even if they come in the back door, they have to come around the front. Bird: Just remember to bring your key with you. Corrie: Just make sure that you lock it up. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 52 Gordon: Is there anything else security wise that you guys would like to see? Anderson: I guess just for discussion and I'm not really that concerned about it myself, but maybe when we look at a new city hall is they're even putting metal detectors in a lot of high schools now make sure somebody is not carrying any guns as possibly doing something like that with the front doors of the building when we're open for public meetings and stuff like that. What's your thoughts on that? Gordon: Naturally I'm for anything that has to do with security. It makes my job a whole lot easier. I know Boise City and a couple of the other cities have tried to pass a state law banning handguns in city hall. Presently anybody can walk in here with a 12 gauge and sit down, a rifle. Bird: As long as they got a hunting license. Gordon: They have a concealed weapons permit and Boise is going through this right now with one of the constitutionalists that live here in town. He's constantly going in city hall carrying guns and he make sure everybody sees it. He's gone in with shotguns. He's gone in with rifles. There's no laws against it. And they are trying to pass laws that prohibit it. So the metal detector, we'd find the guns, but I don't think we can take them away from them and I don't think we could run them out unless we have a city ordinance. And that I think legal might want to look at. We might not be able to get a state law, but maybe the City of Meridian restricting the carrying of firearms of any kind inside of city hall or Council Chambers. Anderson: I know it would influence how I vote. (Inaudible) Gordon: They've got federal law airports and banks but evidently we haven't been able to get a state law for City Halls. Rountree: Public buildings period. Bird: Public buildings, and you know that's the fallacy of that stupid — we've discussed that concealed weapons law. Why anybody outside of a police officer, security person needs to be carrying a gun anyway. In the first place they can carry it out on their side where everybody can see it as far as I'm concerned. Gordon: But anyway maybe have Council check in to see what we can do, but in city hall I don't have a problem with metal detectors, but if we find the guns the only thing we can do is stamp a big G on their forehead because I can't run them off. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 53 Rountree: Yeah, but you can sit somebody next to them with a bigger gun out of the holster. Gordon: That's possible. (Inaudible) Gordon: Next item, budget. I would still like to see the police and fire budget finalized. I know there was a couple of questions. I'd like to know what the questions are. I'd like to get right to them and let's get them out of the way and move on. Bird: You got every right to Chief. That should have been addressed before October 1 st Gordon: Thank you. Bird: And I have no problem addressing it. Anderson: We were given the document today that you probably haven't been given yet, but basically shows wage increases for all City of Meridian employees not just the police department, but there are several folks in the police department that received greater than that. Some of those 9, some 8, some 11, and I'm assuming that there's an explanation that maybe it goes along with a step increase or something like that, and then there's one individual that was a 3% so maybe that was some type of a withholding for performance. I don't know. Gordon: There shouldn't have been anybody less than four percent. The ones that were more than four were step increases. We hired a year ago we hired well it would have been right after the budget was passed. We hired four officers. They received the step increases at the one year. In the middle of the year we hired a couple of more. They received their six month increases so nobody received anything more than the four percent. If they did it was a step increase associated with — who was the one who only shows three percent? Bird: Volker. He only showed three percent. Anderson: And maybe somebody made addition. Bird: No, he went from 29 42 to 30 36 and that is 3%. Gordon: Okay, I'll go back and double check that. But I haven't held anybody back for performance. Hopefully this wage study that we're going to get will allow us to do that. Right now I don't think anybody in the city has got that built into Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 54 their schedule. I'm the only one that even has any step increases to my knowledge, but I'll check on Volker. In fact he's probably one of the top officers that I have. So if anything I would have given him more than four if I was allowed to. I'll check that. Anderson: And then I had a question on the personnel training. Last year it was $53,000. This year's request was $40,000, and I am curious. When you have $40,000 in there, is that include wages for people while other people are going to school or is that simply tuition and motels and registration or what is that $40,000 figure. What does that break down to? Gordon: Strictly tuition, travel, expenses, motels. There's no wages at all. Wages are in their respective departments and any overtime incurred is out of that area there. The training budget is strictly the cost of the training, travel. Corrie: Chief does that include the (Inaudible) and all that training as well, is that part of that? Gordon: Firearms yeah. It's all of our ammunition comes out of the general part of the training. Four shoots a year get a little expensive. Rountree: How many rounds? Gordon: We try to hold it a 200 an officer, and it takes 60 rounds for a qualification round and if they don't qualify the first time, we run them a 100 round warm up and familiarization and then a 60 round course and then we have the 40 for just the backup. So I want to say we allow for 200 an officer. Rountree: If they don't do it in 60 rounds, do you give them an opportunity to throw the pistol at the target? Gordon: No, they have to come back at the next scheduled shoot which is usually two days and we run them again. If they don't make it then, which we've never had happen. Then disciplinary action and we go farther than that. I firmly suggest all of you come out. Corrie: Anything else? Anderson: Yeah the other question I had was when I totalled up the column for all the individual wages, then when I took the wages for the department, there was a $4100 difference. Let me show you that. I don't know there's a totalling the columns. And then I took your total salary that you had in the budget, and there's about $4000 difference. So I don't know if that's just an addition error somewhere or — Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 55 Corrie: You mean his budget is higher than what's here? Anderson: When you total the separate wages in here versus what he has listed in here, there's $4100 difference, and I don't know what that is. Gordon: I've done this too and I always come up with the wrong numbers. I do it two or three different times because it changes on this side here for the steps and if I grab the wrong number anywhere in there and so I run the numbers two or three times then I have Jean run them two or three times and I have Bill run them two or three times. I can't tell you exactly why there's $4100 difference, but what they show for the individuals on that sheet is what they — (inaudible). (Inaudible) Gordon: Because I run it three or four times and I always get three or four different answer myself. That's why I have somebody else do it. Anderson: And then the last question I had did we go ahead and we added new officers was it October 1't? Gordon: Yes, sir. Anderson: So what's our total sworn officers now? Gordon: Two, we added two. It's at 42 sworn. Anderson: 42 sworn now, and then we're anticipating hiring another two --- Gordon: The two more in the middle of six months. Those are the grant officers, and that will — no, I'm sorry I'm at 40 now. The next two will put me at 42. Bird: 38 at the end of the fiscal year. Gordon: Yeah, I was. Bird: We didn't hire any new dispatcher right? Gordon: No, sir you didn't authorize that. Bird: Thank you. Gordon: I only do what you tell me to do. Bird: You do a good job Bill. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 56 Gordon: That's why I'd like to finalize this thing. I know Chief Bowers would too. Rountree: I had a couple of questions Bill. Obviously the first one was that moving the one detective around so you already answered that. The other question I had that was different from previous budgets in terms of pay was that you've added this skills pay. And again I think our compensation study is probably going to get to all of those including probably the one thing I really have the most difficulty with is the longevity pay. And then my question on the longevity pay is that a one time increment? Gordon: It's monthly. Rountree: Yeah, but — for instance if an officer makes $2,000. He has five years of service. That five years of service gives him and I don't know what the increments is. What is that? Gordon: $20.00 a month extra. Rountree: Okay, so he's going to get $2,020 a month. That's a new base. Gordon: Yes. Rountree: Does the next year the sixth year then get $2,040 a month? Gordon: No. Rountree: It stays at $2,020. Gordon: Until he hits ten years. Every five year increments is when it changes. At five years he would go to 40 and — it's not figured on the four percent. The four percent is on the flat base because that base stays the same for the officers Rountree: And it's adjusted by that $20.00 in that five to ten year — Gordon: Correct at ten it will change and at 15 it will change. Rountree: So four percent is 80 plus so it will equate to $100 when — (Inaudible) Rountree: That was the question I had. Bird: The four percent don't go with the pay increase for the longevity, right? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 57 Gordon: No. Bird: See that's where — I like longevity pay. I think it encourages people to stay. Gordon: I do too. Bird: And I think it should be done throughout the city and I think these surveys that we get in is going to show it. It keeps your turnover down. Gordon: I'm really looking forward to this wage study, because I think it will take care of a lot these inequities and I think it will have a built in incentive right there for not just being here forever, but being here and doing a good job. I think we can use it for that. I think I'm the only department that even has a longevity pay. Anderson: The fire department. Gordon: I don't even want to get into that. I don't want to go there. Rountree: Yeah we don't have a whole lot of choice there. (inaudible) Rountree: There's other ways to promote that, but we can talk about that when we talk about the compensation. Bird: Yeah, that's the thing I think. Gordon: Have we heard anything about this the wage study? Have you guys heard anything? Corrie: Hopefully December the 7t", we're having — Candy is going to meet with the Council. Gordon: Okay. Any other questions? Anderson: I had another question. I can't remember the numbers. You were talking about a national average and state average forsworn officers. Do you remember what those were? Gordon: Yes, I do. The State of Idaho the average per thousand population is 1.7 officers, and the national average is even lower for the first time. It's 1.6 per thousand. And when I put on the next two and here again this is all estimated population and it depends on whose estimate you use, but I'm using the 34,000. We're at 1.3 and we're getting along. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 58 Bird: I think that you have to go into the — Gordon: We're getting along. Bird: And you have to look at the communities. The set up of the communities. A New York City I'd want two or three officers per thousand. Gordon: They have that. Bird: They need it. The rural community in — we don't have the massive downtown ghetto population and stuff. Anderson: I guess those numbers that you threw out were kind of concerning me and I was wondering whether we had enough officers or whether we didn't and so I did some checking and I found it kind of interesting that I checked some of the other surrounding cities. Boise for example, checking with Ada Planning, their population was 168,000. They have 222 sworn officers. That comes out 1.32 average. Nampa, their population estimate the last one was 46,000. They have 62 officers. That's a 1.34 average. Caldwell, I think is a little underestimated, but they were 25,000 with 37 officers at 1.48. And Meridian depending again whose numbers you use, but when we checked with APA for budgeting purposes for the fire department in the rural district, we were told 25,000. Some of the estimates I've heard are 30,000 so I kind of picked a number in between using 28,000 at 42 officers we would be 1.5 and 40 officers we would be at 1.35 which would put us right in line with those other cities. So I also did some checking. I understand that that sworn officers in the national average includes FBI agents, ATF agents, anybody who is a sworn officer who lives in that state, so I guess what I'm saying here is I think Meridian is pretty much in line with what the State of Idaho is and I don't think we're tremendously behind on the number of officers that we do have so I just wanted to make that statement because I've heard the numbers always thrown out and we're way behind the average and I really don't think we are based off what I found. Gordon: Well here again now you picked those cities now. I can pick Garden City which is 3.2 per thousand. I can pick Chubbick which is 2.8 per thousand. I can pick Post Falls. And that's why I say we're going state average. We're not going Ada County. So I'm going the whole state and not singling out one or two departments. When I say that's the state average, that's overall and like you say that's total law enforcement. Now when I say I'm below the average, I am below the average for the State of Idaho. Boise is below the average. Nampa is below the average. Garden City is above the average. (Inaudible) Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 59 Bird: We're talking about two things that we just got through talking about. Garden City has more felons than the rest of the Treasure Valley put together. Bentley: And that's true, but let's not forget they don't stay in boundaries. Gordon: And that's why I prefaced with at the 1.3 we're at now we're handling it. So when I say I'm below the average, I'm still handling it below the average, and we will do it with .93 which that's what we had two years ago. We handled it then. But I like to stay close because if it hits the fan and you guys' houses get burned down in a riot, I'm going to be the first you yell at so I'm just giving you the facts. I'm giving you the facts and then you guys tell me what I'm allowed to work with and that's what I'm working with, but I'm giving you the facts. You can't pick one or two places and go by that. Anderson: I just picked some in the immediate area and when you pick some of those other areas, you're picking ones with high crime rates to go along with them. That's why they have more officers usually, but— Gordon: ut— Gordon: No, not always Ron. That's why I went state wide. Anderson: I think what Meridian has to do and what we have to look at Bill is in my opinion the City of Meridian has a lot of needs, including police and fire. And we have to balance out all of our needs and that's where I think Meridian in the past has got a little bit out of balance, and I think we need to look at trying to hold the police department in check for a while with the number of employees and trying to get by with what we can until we can beef up some of the other departments. Because we have to look at the whole picture not just the police protection and that's what I see as my job as a Councilman. Corrie: I want to caution you. That public safety and I agree with you Ron. We need to beef up the fire department that's for sure, but public safety is one area that the public is looking at this Council to keep it up, and you get behind the 8 ball there, we're going to be in a lot of trouble. Anderson: And I agree with what you are saying and I just think it needs to be a balancing act and so far I think we're a little bit out of balance. That's my opinion and I can throw out all kinds of numbers to support that. If you look at our total percentage of budget and how much we spend in different areas, I think I've got more than enough information to support that. Bentley: I think you need to understand too that no matter which book you pick up and look at, you're going to see that your police department is the biggest share of anybody's budget, whether it's here. Whether it's Boise. Whether it's Kuna. It don't matter where it is. If you look in the ZGA study, it will show you the exact same thing. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 60 Anderson: I don't disagree with that, but the percentages I do disagree. Bird: Our percentage for police is over the last five to six years compared to the fire, the parks and all that stuff has been very, very high. Bill knows that. I think by getting our new formatted budgets, we won't this problem. I'm like Ron. I can sit here and argue facts and figures all night but I think we need to move on and I think as the Councilman we need to either accept this budget for the police or do something and let the guy get on with the year's work. Bentley: Mr. Mayor we need to point one thing too. The budget has been accepted. It was voted on and approved in September. Now we do have the right to cut it back, but you cannot condition the budget and I believe the attorney will bail me out on this. You cannot condition that budget. Once it's passed, it's passed. You can make adjustments back and cut it back. But I have got a question now concern is if everybody else is done. The job of a Councilman is to help the department he's assigned to create the budget and act as the liaison to the other Councilmen. Now, I've got a real problem over the discussions with this police budget. The only thing that Chief Gordon and I knew at the end of budget hearings when we accept the budget here, was there was a question on the detective being moved over, and we answered it that night. This other question concerning Carol Row's wages, these other wages that were brought up was been discussed between Councilmen but neither myself nor the Chief were ever made aware of it, and I would like to know why. Anderson: I don't think anybody owes you any explanation. We're looking at the police and we're looking at the fire budget. If you've got comments about the fire budget, bring them out. Bentley: That's exactly my point. Anderson: And I have about the police budget and that's what I'm bringing them out, and by God it's my right to do that and I will do that. Bentley: Nobody is questioning your right to do that. My question is why wasn't it brought before us before six weeks passed? We never heard a word about this. Bird: I beg to differ with you Glenn. Bentley: This budget has drug out with these questions for too long. This man is trying to run a department, Kenny is trying to run a department and we're still sitting here almost two months into the budget with no questions asked. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 61 Anderson: Well the fact that it has drug out has not been our fault. That could have been scheduled at any point. Bentley: Excuse me it was scheduled. But my point is that it's never been brought to the Councilman that oversees that department that helps with that budget. Rountree: Glenn you know I don't know that that's necessarily the issue. One yes it has been scheduled, but it has been deferred executive sessions have been cancelled or not been able to be held. When the items wanted to be talked about and I think in everybody's behalf is that it needs to be talked about in a public situation and the questions need to be asked. I had questions. I had questions after I had an opportunity to get the new police budget the day of the final budget hearing. One thing I did point out and I did ask Bill that was very glaring obviously was about a 40 or $50,000 difference. It's not an error, which it was pointed out, but there were some other issues as it related to new items that weren't in the previous draft budget. And I asked him tonight and I got an answer. I could have asked you, but we still needed a public discussion to get past the motion that was made on the budget and I didn't really think that my questions were that big an issue to need to corner you and Bill to talk about them. I just point out that there's differences and the other action we took with the compensation study I think those are going to be answered for all of us. Bentley: And I agree Charlie, but my point was and especially the issue with Carol Row getting between 17 and 24% or whatever the number were shot out. Neither him nor I knew anything about that. Bird: Just a minute Glenn. We had a meeting right over there in the Mayor's deal. At the time we asked him to bring back the dispatch center, her wages and everything else were brought up and you were sitting right there and Bill was sitting right there. We said we didn't want anymore put on the dispatch and at that time her wage increase was questioned. Corrie: Before we get too far — Bird: But let's don't get in — let's get the thing going and next year we got — Corrie: Yeah, I think unless you got any more questions Ron. Anderson: I have no more questions. (Inaudible) Gordon: In response to Councilman Anderson, the police department has grown. Granted, but that's grown because of this group, not because of me. This group Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 62 authorized every position. Through the years I have seen Councils go herky jerky and you're right. The City of Meridian needs everybody. (End of Tape) Gordon: ...else then your police department is going to be way behind. So what I'm saying is yeah we'll coast along on the police department. I don't have a problem with that to bring everybody else back up to the service, but don't shut the police department off just to catch everybody else up because we'll never catch up. Anderson: And I agree with what you are saying. And that's why I am saying it's got to be balancing act. And the best thing could be that we could find some more funding and come up with a better funding mechanism so that you don't have to be held back or cut back or anything else that we could bring those other departments up to your standards and up to your par, but at present time I don't see a lot of work going on to increase that funding and so at some point we're going to have to do some balancing or we got to find some ways to increase the funding, and that's what it boils down to. Gordon: Right and when I bring you stats, numbers and figures, those are not something that I make up over there in my office. Those are nationally accepted and they're overall and I give you guys the facts and you make the decisions. I just bring you the information. It's your job to tell me what you are going to do with your money and how much I get and what I get to work with, but to question the stats, that's not the issue. I provide you with the information. You make the decisions. I just do what you tell me to do and for me to cloud the stats, they're national stats. I don't make them up. I just bring them to you, present them to you and then you do with them whatever you want. Anderson: Yeah, and I'm like Keith, I mean we can read stats anyway, but I don't think it's productive for this Council to argue about stuff like that. What we ought to be doing is working our efforts towards finding better ways to fund things and not arguing back and forth about who is getting more money, and that's what I'd like to see us work towards. Gordon: Right and I agree. Anderson: I just want to tell you that I think as a department head, you're doing a great job and keep it up. Gordon: But if you want me to bring in stats on how many little old ladies have to wait at the red light before they can cross, I can get you those too. I guess what I'm saying is if you want some different stats, then let me know and I'll get them for you because to make the decisions, you are going to need the information. And that's my job is to provide you with the information. Not come up here and Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 63 give you a cock and bull story trying to get more cops or more money. Because the whole city needs help not just me. Bird: Mr. Mayor I think in reply to that I think our budget once we get a general format for every department, we'll let us all know a lot better what goes on in each department. And there is some questions and I think once we get that general format, we'll get through the budget faster. I think for the size of our city that our police department is doing a great job. I think that and you and I have discussed this. The police department has been kept up to speed pretty much. The other departments haven't. I think that can be done without a bunch of tax increase or anything else. I think we can get everybody up there. We'll get her done, and we're not going to make you go poor either. It's going to take some time. Gordon: The budget issue and I guess some of things have happened this time because of the size that they city has grown and the police department has reached — my budget is a real nightmare doing it this way. I would really love to have a set procedure for budgeting. Bird: And it would be so much easier for us to pass it and to look at them. We could get in here with one format with all departments. We would know what we was doing. Anyway thanks Chief. Anderson: And it's nothing against you. When I look at these numbers I mean I see that a new officer get a 45% raise the first 30 months that he's here, and would like to be able to that for every city employee and I guess that creates animosity from other city employees. It creates animosity from other City Council people when their departments don't get those kinds of things. So you're right. We've done it right up here. We've built this system. We've allowed this to happen and it's time that we correct some of those things. Corrie: I wish you were here about five years ago. Gordon: I guess I can't stress enough don't just close the door on the police department because everybody else needs help because then your police department will be — Rountree: I guess Bill in that regard at least my feeling and I think it probably is everybody else's, we're not closing the door on anybody. Gordon: Well the comment hold the police department back while everybody else got up there. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 64 Rountree: But in the attempt to do the balancing act. Everybody and particularly the police department is going to be held to a different level of accountability and scrutiny than they have in the past. Period. Gordon: Not a problem. Rountree: I'll confirm the rest of the comments that the Council made. You know I think not just the police department but all the city departments are doing great things with limited resources. And you build our expectations, and I hope you continue to do that. That we provide enough resources that you guys can do good things. With respect to the budget, I don't know what the action we need, but I think the motion as I recall was that we approve the budget based on condition of holding the fire and police because we had some questions and hadn't even had an opportunity to review them. I would offer a motion that we approve the — we have already approved the budget. I don't know what it is we do, take — Bird: You got to take the allocations off. Rountree: I would approve the police budget with the removal of the allocations with the exception that the wage increases that have been implemented remain until such time as the city is through the compensation study process. By that I mean that this by approving the budget and the allocations that tomorrow everybody doesn't raise another four percent. That's not in the budget, that's my intent by making the motion. Bentley: I'll second that. Then I'd like some discussion. Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree second by Mr. Bentley on the budget as stated by the motion. Further discussion? Bentley: Yes, with the one exception that if there is an error on the gentleman with the three percent that it be corrected. Rountree: That's an understood because our direction was that everybody get a four percent so you correct that error and I don't think we need a motion to that affect. Bentley: No, I just wanted to make sure that point is clear so it doesn't freeze him. Gordon: I'll get on that first thing in the morning. Did I answer all the questions? Bird: We got a motion. Are we voting for it? Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 65 Corrie: All in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Bird: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to make a statement. For Bill and Tom and Shari, all those department heads, Will, Mr. Gigray. I think by getting our audit report for '97 it truly shows that a town with the lowest mill levy around must have some awful good department heads and some awful good employees to be in the financial shape we're in. We've got to stay in that financial shape the way we're growing. We got to still be a conservative town, which I hope we are, but you guys need the credit, all the department heads, all the employees. We hope the five of us sitting up here help a little bit. Two of us didn't have anything to do with that audit report, but you guys are the ones that make it go, and I appreciate it as a Councilman. I absolutely appreciate it when I get an audit like that. It makes me feel pretty proud to be a citizen of Meridian. Corrie: Thank you Keith. I have one thing for the Council that I added privilege of the Mayor. Then we'll go into Executive Session. Rountree: What kind of privilege? Corrie: Very little. What I would ask the Council to do is if they would move my capital expenditure of $5,000 to operation expenses? It's just a change in name, but I can't get any money out of the capital expenditures unless I spend $1,000 on each item according to the county people. Rountree: So what do you want to spend it on? Bird: Yeah what do you want to spend it on? Corrie: I've got a credenza coming for about $300 and I can't use it for capital expenditure. Rountree: That's operating. Corrie: Operation expenses. So I just need a motion that we move the — Bird: What's your line item number? The capital expenditure number is 010413.90-00. And what do you want it to go into? Corrie: Operation expenses. Bird: 010413.10-32. 1 make a motion that we change that. Bentley: Second. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 66 Corrie: Motion made and second. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. Corrie: Thank you. Bentley: Discussion? You will fill out the proper paperwork to get that transferred. Corrie: I would like to have an Executive Session if we could. Gigray: Mr. Mayor I would recommend as a matter of procedure you should identify the item that you are going to discuss in Executive Session because it's required by the statute. As long as you meet the categories you're okay, but you just have to identify the categories that you are going into. If it's personnel or anticipation of litigation or whatever. Corrie: Okay it's both of those. Gigray: Just say — Corrie: Litigation and personnel matters according to Code 6 — why Gigray: And then you appoint a secretary. Bird: We don't keep minutes on those. Gigray: The state law says you're suppose to and all they do is say you went into Executive Session and that there was a discussion and no action was taken and then you report out. Bird: If we're going to do that, we'll sit right here. I don't need an Executive Session. I'm serious. Gigray: I mean you don't record. It's just you have somebody, that's really all they do. (Inaudible) Rountree: Appoint yourself as secretary Bob. Corrie: Okay I'll do that. According to state code, is it 67-2345? Okay, of Executive Session. I am requesting that we go into Executive Session. Meridian City Council November 17, 1998 Page 67 Bentley: So moved. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second according to code 67-2345. All in favor say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. EXECUTIVE SESSION Rountree: Mr. Mayor I move that we come out of Executive Session at 12:02 a. m. Bird: Second. Corrie: Motion made and second that we come out of Executive Session at 12:02 a.m. according to the laws of state of 67-2345, no decisions were made at that meeting. (Inaudible) Anderson: Mr. Mayor I make a motion that we adjourn the meeting. Bird: I second it. Corrie: Motion made and second that we adjourn. All those in favor of the motion say aye. MOTION CARRIED: All ayes. ►�1���I►[e1_1�11L�1�1:�►1��7_��if�a[�Ic�_w�� (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR ATTEST: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK