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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997 02-18MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL FEBRUARY 18. 1997 The regular meeting of the Meridian City Council was called to order by Mayor Robert D. Corrie at 7:30 P.M.: MEMBERS PRESENT: Ron Tolsma, Charlie Rountree, Glenn Bentley, Walt Morrow: OTHERS PRESENT: Wayne Crookston, Will Berg, Shari Stiles, Gary Smith, Chief Gordon, Doug Campbell, Ken Corral, Charles Trainer David Turnbull, Mike Ballantyne, Stephanie Churchman, Becky Bowcutt, Patricia Reed, James Gibson, John Nesmith, Chris Smith, Jonathan Seel, Dave Hanson, Ernie: MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 4,1997: Corrie: Council you have had the minutes of the previous meeting held February 4, 1997, are there any corrections or alterations to the minutes? Hearing none I will entertain a motion for approval as written. Rountree: So moved Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree, second by Mr. Tolsma to approve the minutes of February 4, 1997, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea W:ZeZsillW_1LTA F111IIIA 011;Iffl:»y_\VIT/2121:fl Corrie: Whereas the FFA and agricultural education provide a strong foundation for the youth of America and the future of agriculture; and Whereas the FFA promotes premier leadership, personal growth and career success among its members; and Whereas, agricultural education and the FFA ensure a steady supply of young professionals to meet the growing demands in the science, business and technology of agriculture; and Whereas the FFA motto "Learning to do, doing to learn, earning to live, living to serve" gives direction of purpose to these students who strive to become leaders with a vision; and Whereas the FFA performs the valuable service of encouraging cooperation, promoting good citizenship and inspiring patriotism among its members. Therefore I do hereby designate the week of February 15 through 22, 1997 as FFA Week. Signed Robert D. Corrie, Mayor. Would the representative of the FFA like to come up here and we will give you this (inaudible). FFA Member: We would like to thank you for all of your support and hope you all went to our FFA appreciation breakfast which was held last Friday morning and we want you to know that you are all invited next year. So if you hear about it come on down. We Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 2 thank you for all of your support you have given us throughout the year. We really appreciate it. Morrow: Thanks it was a great breakfast. ITEM #1: CHARLES TRAINER - APA: DISCUSSION OF LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM: Trainer: Thank you Mayor and members of Council. My name is Charles Trainer I am with Ada Planning Association, 413 West Idaho, Boise, 83702. 1 was invited tonight to talk a little bit about the rail demonstration project under consideration. I will try to keep my remarks as brief as possible, I know you have a long night tonight. First of all, certainly it is convenient having the painting behind you on the wall because the first item I have on my agenda is a little synopsis of the rail in the valley. Certainly this community was one of the first west of the Mississippi to have an electrified rail system in existence until 1928. Interesting enough the painting also shows cars present, we figure that the ridership peaked probably around 1915 which is about contemporary with that painting. 1910 there were only 300 cars in the valley and about 700 people per registered vehicle are in Ada County. By 1930 there were 10,000 cars. So growth in the area, growth and traffic as caused a resurgence in interest in rail. We are aware that the freeway is reaching certainly an unpleasant level of service for a lot of commuters. Outside of continuing to widen roadways at some point we need to begin looking at some alternatives. And I appreciate Meridian has had a long standing interest in the rail corridor. We have a large citizen interest in the alternative transportation. At every meeting since I have been here about 10 years I have been hit up by somebody that says why aren't you looking at rail transportation. Our plans have historically said it is not appropriate given the high capital cost. Looking at somewhere around $10 to $15 million for light rail system. A lot of people go to Portland and see the system and come back very enthusiastic. We tell them that initial segment of rail cost Portland $300 million. So up until last year we were on pretty safe ground saying that rail system was out of the market. At that point a German manufacturer had developed a new rail system, a vehicle that is shown up here on the screen called (inaudible) it is basically a self propelled vehicle. Unlike the vehicle in your painting it doesn't need an outside electrical source for power. It has a diesel engine located one at each end of the vehicle. It travels at speeds of approximately 60 miles an hour maximum. It carries 75 people seated and another room for another 100 standing. It also has onboard bicycle racks and it is about 70% low floor vehicle. Which means you can have fairly low platforms as very accessible for persons in wheelchairs or the elderly. One driver can operate four of these vehicles hooked together. So ultimately if you had a lot of ridership on your system you could haul a lot of people with no more labor. Of course one of the things that makes this work is really the availability of the track. This material is shown in the handouts I provided to Will Berg and hopefully you have them in front of you. The track of Boise cut off starts in Nampa, goes all the way to the old town site of Orchard. That cut off is very ideal for the purpose in the sense it has very limited freight service and the only other service using it is the Amtrak. The Amtrak train which runs late at night may not be in existence after mid-May. If it is in existence and its funding is Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 3 in jeopardy at this point, it only has funding extended by the Federal government until May even if it stays in existence there is a high probability it will be rescheduled onto the main line track. We cannot use the main line track for this vehicle. It is not certified by the Federal rail administration. This vehicle by Seamons were to get into a collision with a real train the real train would come off the winner by far. In addition Union Pacific does not want to interfere with their freight service which is their bread and butter. However, they are more than willing to consider rescheduling of the freight service. I would like to express appreciation. I missed a beat here, to Mayor Corrie who early on met with some other Mayors from the area including mayor Gherring of Nampa and Mayor Coles to meet with the Union Pacific people and ask them what they would be willing to do. They were very forthcoming in offering to reschedule the freight service. That cut off is on the block or will be this year according to Union Pacific officials that Mayor Corrie and others met with in early January. We don't know what the Price is, we have sent a letter to Union Pacific asking that negotiations start. Their strong advice is that public sector, local governments at least get an interest on that Boise cut off to prevent, protect the future possibility of using that track for passenger service or possibly for bike ways or utilities. The vehicle itself, there is only one in the country on tour, we are not looking at buying that vehicle. With one vehicle we do have one limitation that we can only have service about every 2 hours. I timed the track speed and from 11th and Garrity in Nampa to Gowen Road would take 38 minutes one way. That is not counting in this time at the stations or acceleration and deceleration. So it would be about an hour to get from that station in Nampa to Gowen Road. There is no competing vehicle, we have already had letters in the paper why aren't we buying American. There is no American firm making a vehicle like this and hasn't been. On the other hand if we ever did get to the point of buying it the Seamons Corporation has a manufacturing plant in California. That is where they would manufacture any vehicle sold in North America. We have also been asked if we could rebuild existing equipment. That certainly is an option, however it is not necessarily a cheap option. Anything we put in service would have to be accessible to persons with disabilities, wheelchair lifts such as that. Dallas has recently had a rather unpleasant experience in rebuilding some equipment and ended up paying perhaps more than they would have spent on buying new equipment. We are looking at a number of issues, operating issues, who would operate this equipment. We certainly want to contract out to the private sector wherever possible. If we could higher drivers from Union Pacific so be it. If we can higher maintenance or contract for maintenance for MK rail that would be our ideal. We still need a public entity that would be the fiscal agent for this project. Take over the liability and basically handle the contracting. That is something that we are looking at now. There are 32 crossings in Ada County, that is going to be a real issue, it controls the speed it also effects safety. Very preliminary evaluation by ITD indicates that with a train operating every two hours all the crossings in Ada County would need warrants for gates and we only have 3 gated crossings now in Ada County. Those gates cost somewhere around $200,000. An option for a three month demonstration would certainly be the use of flaggers. As ideal as gates may be I don't see that we are going to be spending to build gates for a three month demonstration. But certainly we would ultimately like to see gates because it is the best way to increase the operating speed. If Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 4 we could put in gates throughout the system we could run that train at maximum speed along the track. We are also looking at station improvements. And for the sake of this demonstration we are looking at bare bones for a three month demonstration. Basically a wooden box, with a reusable shelter mounted on top, it just has to come to about 3 inches below the floor of the car to allow that lift to come out or ramp to come out of the vehicle. We will have to obviously meet the safety criteria in Americans with Disabilities have railing ramps and things like that. And because it will be something that is operating in the night time at least up until about 8:30 we probably want some kind of light on it so that people can see what they are getting into. Another issue that is going to be is we are going to have to have some sort of park and ride, we would like to find station sites wherever possible. Where we have existing parking we could lease. Obviously we are going to need some sort of pathway or sidewalk to connect to those park and ride facilities and we also would like to have sidewalks connecting the station to existing street system. Another issue we are going to be looking to in the stations is some sort of shuttles to and from unless the people are so fortunate as to basically get off the train and have their destination within an easy walk distance which isn't going to be most locations. We are going to have to have some sort of shuttle system to their ultimate destination. Wherever possible, what we are going to hope is to work with the private sector companies and say if you have employees you would like to use this system would you be willing to put on a shuttle to that station and tie in that shuttle to pick up your employees and drop them off. Again where we do spend public dollars we would like to contract with the private sector. People like the guy who runs the commuters bus, Gary Sprague out of Caldwell. We do not want to adversely affect any existing transportation provider. Financing is going to be a real major issue for this demonstration. Right now we have about $200,000 committed or earmarked to this project. We know we are going to need more. We are looking at public sources, certainly federal demonstration funds are a possibility. And we will be approaching the federal agencies and our legislators. Not only for the demonstration but also for the long term preservation of this corridor when Union Pacific puts it on the block. So just a quick recap, this study is to look at the feasibility of a rail system. Early on in the discussions the Mayors who were present were asked would you rather spend your money on doing the demonstration or would you rather spend your money studying the feasibility of a demonstration. The answer was pretty much unanimous we would rather spend the money doing something than just studying it. But still we are trying to do this on the cheap as much as possible. So far we haven't laid out much beside staff time on this project. We will need to start spending some money on some environmental studies and some engineering studies. But so far we are trying to take a go slow attitude towards this. This is very much in keeping with what we have seen in the paper both the Press Tribune and the Statesman have said do it carefully and do it slowly don't rush into anything and that is what we are trying. So with that I would like to close it and open up to any questions. Rountree: Charles, do you have just a ball park figure on the cost? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 5 Trainer: A capital cost? Not at this point, one of the big issues of course is the unknown quantity of the crossing improvements. The station cost I think we can do fairly cheaply, certainly looking at $50,000 or so for building all of these. Then it depends on what we can get in terms of leasing or free use of parking lots. Operating costs, I have heard somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000 a month but I haven't priced that myself. That would be I think a high end cost for this. But it is something that we need to be looking at. Part of the issue that we have to consider is a service once every 2 hours really good enough to be a test. Corrie: Any further questions from Council? Morrow: So the purpose of the demonstration then are we going to be able to develop enough information from this to accurately forecast what the long term cost, the start up cost of the project would be and then the monthly operating cost should something be decided in that. Would this demonstration accomplish those goals? Trainer: I think so, certainly if we put on a train every two hours and we hear feedback from people that say that is not good enough you need something that runs every 20 minutes that will give us information to forecast what it would cost to put on a full blown system. I am working on these costs now in terms of the operating. One of the other unknowns is can we, do we have if we went through Union Pacific we would have to pay their union scale and they are paying their operators something in the vicinity of $70,000 to $80,000 a year. We would rather not do that if we can avoid it and we are looking into some other options including contracting with some ex -MK people who are apparently qualified to operate equipment on the tracks. But if we are leasing from the Union Pacific apparently their union rules prevail. Morrow: Okay, so then the goal of this study then will provide us as communities and has taxpayers an amount that by that we would be able to make a decision whether we want to do this or don't want to do it. And we will have a total end cost of operating this system. Trainer: Correct Corrie: Other comments or questions? Rountree: Do you have an estimated cap on cost that would be the key this is a go no go demonstration? Trainer: Not at this time. I have been given kind of a mission to proceed on this by my board and sort of flush out the cost as we go. I am hoping that we can get that by some time this Spring. And we have these costs in line and we can lay it out along with the conditions put forth by Union pacific and Seamons. At that point I think we will hear from our board from the elected officials does this thing seem to be feasible. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 6 Crookston: Just one question, realizing that you do not know what the costs are going to be, do you have any insight at all as to the cost for a ride? Trainer: No we haven't even looked at what the fare would be. One option is to simply make it free and if we people won't ride it for free they probably won't ride it at any other condition. I think one thing that is safe to say and my experience and the experience across the country is that there is no system that is self supporting. That is true from Portland, Oregon to Portland, Maine and even through Canada. One gentleman in Denver that is looking at a very similar vehicle estimates a per trip cost, they are looking from downtown Denver to the Denver Airport of $12 per ride is what it would take to break even. That is for a similar length of trip, they are using a one step up vehicle. Crookston: Thank you Corrie: Thank you Charles for your presentation. ITEM #2: TABLED NOVEMBER 19,1996: FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW FOR VARIANCE REQUEST FOR ASHFORD GREENS SUBDIVISION BY BRIGHTON CORPORATION: Corrie: Counselor, where are we on this? Do we still have some issues? Crookston: Well I am sure that there are. As I remember this was continued at Mr. Turnbulls's request. I do not have anything from him subsequently so the findings of fact have not been changed. Crookston: And the variance was related to the irrigation situation and I don't know where we are with that. Corrie: Staff, Gary do you know anything yet? Shari? Stiles: The irrigation committee is still meeting, we have another meeting scheduled for Monday and I don't believe we have come to any conclusions yet. Morrow: To bring the Council up to speed we are a ways away from having some (inaudible) developing information back from Nampa Meridian in terms of alternatives. The next step in our Monday meeting we will try to bring that information together and then bring together after we have that put together bring together the legal staff from Nampa Meridian and Meridian City to try and resolve those issues. Then hopefully we will have a proposal that will be beneficial to Nampa Meridian and the City of Meridian and the development community. So that is where we are at. Corrie: I guess Mr. Morrow what would you suggest for a table? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 7 Morrow: Well I was in hopes that we would see something from David's company asking for a time. Let's table to our first meeting in March and then on our Monday's meeting we can ask him where he wants to go with that. So Mr. Mayor I would recommend that we table until March 4, 1997. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow second by Mr. Rountree to table this for further discussion until March 4, 1997 meeting, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? & Is] 9to] ►[GL1: W219]I_11\'[�1 ITEM #3: TABLED FEBRUARY 4, 1997: CC&R'S FOR TROUTNER BUSINESS PARK BY JIM BALLANTYNE: Corrie: Mr. Ballantyne, Mike? Ballantyne: I basically would be glad to entertain any questions or concerns regarding the CC&R's. Crookston: I was in the process of reviewing those this afternoon and this evening and I have not finaled that review. Morrow: That being the case, obviously we can't review them because we haven't seen them. Crookston: You don't have copies at all? Corrie: I don't, you have got everything we have. Morrow: (Inaudible) Mr. Mayor, Shari has a comment. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council, I believe because of the thickness of that document that Anna did not give all of the Councilman a copy. It might be better if you could look at the one that is in the file. I guess if you all prefer to have your own copy that is fine but it is a lengthy document. Ballantyne: I could just recite if we have a couple of days. Morrow: That being the case Mr. Mayor I would move that we table until March 4 pending review by Counselor and individual review by each councilman after we have received the written review from Attorney Crookston. Bentley: Second Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 8 Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Bentley, to table the CC&R's for the business park until March 4 for review by the counselor and the City Council, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #4: FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW FOR ANNEXATION AND ZONING TO C -G BY EAGLE PARTNERS LLC: Corrie: Council you have the findings of fact and conclusions of law. Rountree: I have a couple of minor corrections I would like to suggest. On page 16, item 17, paragraph 2, third line reads "at this point he was not included to support the application" included should be changed to inclined. And on page 32, it is up to the Council whether they want my name on that page or not, but everybody else is there. Corrie: We will see that (inaudible) Any further corrections or comments? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I would move that adopt the amended findings of fact and conclusions. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree that we approve the findings of fact and conclusions as changed, roll call vote. ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Bentley - Yea, Rountree - Yea, Tolsma -Yea MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Morrow: Mr. Mayor, the Meridian City Council hereby decides that based on the findings of fact and conclusions of law above adopted that the annexation application is denied. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree on the decision to deny the annexation application, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #5: FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A CHEVRON C -STORE, MCDONALD'S WITH DRIVE THRU, AND A HOTEL BY EAGLE PARTNERS LLC: Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 9 Corrie: I believe that is now moot is that correct? Crookston: That is correct. Corrie: We will need a motion. Bentley: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we drop the findings of fact and conclusions of law for conditional use permit for the Chevron C -Store and McDonalds. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley, second by Mr. Rountree to drop findings of fact and conclusions of law for conditional use permit for a Chevron C -Store, McDonalds drive through and a hotel by Eagle Partners LLC, any further discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Corrie: Before I go onto to Item 6, 1 would like to welcome Scout Troop #5 for coming in tonight and observing the Council meeting. So welcome fellows, we appreciate it. ITEM #6: AMENDED FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE LAKE AT CHERRY LANE NO. 7 BY STEINER DEVELOPMENT: Corrie: Council you have those findings in front of you, any questions or comments or changes? Rountree: Mr. Mayor, on page 14, item 15, third line, "the City to" the word to should be deleted. On the sixth line, "the numbers show that the" the word the should be deleted an substitute the word project. The following line, "but he questioned whether" and the phrase should be inserted the project met the intent of open space. Corrie: Thank you Charlie. Any further corrections? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we adopt and approve the findings of fact and conclusions of law as corrected. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree to adopt the findings of fact and conclusions of law as amended, roll call vote. ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Bentley - Yea, Rountree - Yea, Tolsma - Yea Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 10 MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Corrie: Entertain a motion on the decision. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, the Meridian City Council hereby approves and grants this conditional use application for a planned unit development under the conditions stated above in these findings of fact and conclusions of law. This approval is subject to all City ordinances, accept that is allowed not to be met as stated herein. But specifically including design review and plan approval under the procedures of the subdivision and development ordinance. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree on the decision motion, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #7: PRELIMINARY PLAT FOR THE LAKE AT CHERRY LANE NO. 7 BY STEINER DEVELOPMENT; TABLED FEBRUARY 4,1997: Corrie: Would a member of the Steiner Corporation like to give us your view on the preliminary plat. Bradbury: I don't have anything to add to what has been discussed at the last couple of meetings. If anybody has any specific questions I would be happy to respond to those. Corrie: Thank you. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I have a question with respect to and maybe Gary or Shari can answer this as a quick overview in terms of the preliminary plat that we have before us. Does it meet what we have just adopted in terms of the findings of fact and conclusions of law. Have either one of you reviewed it from that standpoint to see that the two are in compliance with each other? Stiles: Councilman Morrow, Mayor and Council, I haven't specifically looked at these findings and checked whether it matched those requirements. I don't think there will be a problem with them making it does make sure it meets those requirements. But I couldn't tell you right now whether it did or not. Smith: Same comment for me. Morrow: That being the case Mr. Mayor, I would like to move to approve the preliminary plat for the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 7 by Steiner Development subject to compliance of Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 11 that plat with the just adopted findings of fact and conclusions of law for the Lake at Cherry Lane No. 7. Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Tolsma to approve the preliminary plat according to the motion, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #8: FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW FOR VARIANCE REQUEST BY BUILDERS MASONRY: Corrie: Council you have the findings of facts and conclusions of law in front of you, any corrections, additions or alterations? Corrie: Stephanie would you like to make a comment? Churchman: Mr. Mayor and Council, I have a correction, actually I don't know if that is proper or not. But I found fault in the findings of fact. It was my understanding that the Council approved the variance for Builders Masonry Products upon condition that we monitor the outflows and that also that we agree to connect to the City water in the future at a future time. That the variance wasn't denied out right. That was just my understanding and I need clarification on that. Corrie: I think Stephanie what the Council had meeting with Counselor and what they have put on the findings of fact and conclusions is based upon what they have come up and what they feel from the public testimony. So, I guess what they have got down here is what will have to be. Unless there is any comment from Council, Mr. Rountree? Rountree: We haven't yet acted on them. But my understanding was that the sewer hook up was not a variance issue anyway and the metering of that is again not a variance issue, but that is a condition of hooking up to the sewer. As far as the water hook up my understanding was that and you concurred that at a future date when water was extended down Franklin you would then extend which may happen in the very near future. Having said that I still think that there is no need for a variance. I suppose it is a matter of timing and I throw that out for discussion. You will have to extend the water line at a future date. Churchman: Correct, I guess my question was and I called Counsel today just to clarify if we could go ahead and hook up to sewer now and at a future date go ahead to hook up to City water. And my understanding was that it was denied out right that we were not allowed to hook up to the sewer system at this time period unless we hooked up to the City water right away. So I guess I need clarification on that. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 12 Morrow: Mr. Mayor, if I might, I think that what we were discussing when we were asked for in terms of the variance was that you wished to have a variance from the requirement of taking the water to and through your property. I like Mr. Rountree did not see that there was any conflict in terms of the sewer line subject to the monitoring conditions and all of those things that we discussed two weeks ago. It seems to me that and the other issues that we discussed with respect to the water line at this juncture I don't really see that a variance does much good because in the short term you are going to be totally surrounded by projects and we kind of talked about it, it is going to be a matter of months before this is going to take place anyway. From my perspective what I am seeing of these findings and the counselor can correct me is that we are simply dealing with the variance of the to and through because it doesn't have enough time to apply. We currently within the system have the property across the street that we had discussed and I did go look at it, it is directly across the street from you guys. And then also we talked about the property on the east side that has worked its way through part of the process already. So in a matter of a few months you are going to be totally surrounded and carry it through. So I don't see any point in doing the variance because it is going to have a real short life. So, from my perspective what we are doing is we are denying the variance of the to and through and let you deal with that issue with your co -developers that are on the east side and the south side of you and maybe jointly have an effort there. The second issue is that the sewer thing is worked out with the City public works department. Now that is as I saw this. I would ask Wayne and Gary in case I have seen it incorrectly. Crookston: Mr. Mayor and Councilmen, I drew these on the basis that it was my understanding that it was a total deny of the variance request and I certainly have to acknowledge that there was discussion about them hooking up to the water at some time in my discussion today with Mrs. Churchman she mentioned she thought she had the right to hook up to the sewer and I said I wasn't real sure about that. I looked through my notes and read some of the minutes and the minutes are not real clear as to what the Council's decision was. But there was enough comment made during that hearing as to the possibility that they would have to hook up shortly anyway to the water and the sewer. That is why the findings of fact and conclusions of law come out the way they do. Corrie: Does that answer your question? Churchman: Yes, I guess what I want to know basically is can we hook up to sewer tomorrow and wait two or four months down the line to run our line through when that time comes? Corrie: That is what I am hearing from Council, Gary? Smith: Mr. Mayor and Councilmen, it was my understanding there wasn't a problem with Builders Masonry connecting to the sewer as far as the City is concerned. They are within the City limits, the sewer is on the other side of Five Mile Creek that is Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 13 available for their connection assuming they have permission from the Corp of Engineers to cross Five Mile Creek. It was my understanding that the issue concerned the ordinance requirement for a property within the city limits that is within 300 feet of a sewer or water line to connect, that is a requirement by the ordinance to connect. That was my understanding of why the variance was being requested for not connecting to the water line. As part of that discussion then the extension of the water line across the frontage of the property came up. There was discussion concerning a sharing of cost with the installation of the water line with the property to the south that is in the process of being developed. There was discussion concerning extension of the water line as construction to the east took place which is also in the process. But I thought the issue was whether or not that section of the ordinance requiring connection to the water line was to be upheld or was to be varied. Because the water line is at the southwest corner of the Builders Masonry Products which is the southeast corner of the Meridian Business and Industrial Park. (End of Tape) connect to the sewer should they also be required to connect to the water. Corrie: So I still don't think you have your answer. Rountree: (Inaudible) Morrow: I think that from my perspective as point of discussion is and that Gary is correct his point is well made, we do have the two issues with the ordinance to deal with. I guess that being the case, these in my mind these findings don't get us to where I want us to go to from my perspective. I want to see the sewer thing hooked up immediately or as quickly as possible. That does mean with respect to the ordinance that we do need to vary those two things in terms of the immediate water hook up and we need vary the to and through is that correct Counselor? Crookston: You would have to grant the variance. As far as the sewer is concerned whether or not you want to grant it for the water I have no idea. But if they are not going to connect to the sewer. Rountree: No, they are going to hook to the sewer. Morrow: The issue is that we are trying to get, at least from my perspective and if the Council concurs we are trying to get to the point of where we are allowing the connection to the sewer to take place immediately. And then we are delaying the connection to the water and the to and through the property for a short period of time in the near term to allow these other things to go on. Crookston: You still need to deal with both the water and the sewer requirement to go to and through. Corrie: So we are going to need new facts and findings. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 14 Morrow: From my perspective Mr. Mayor for point of discussion I can't support the findings of fact as they are written. Bentley: Mr. Mayor, I would agree with that, I think we are going to have to modify these to make them more (inaudible) Rountree: Well apparently we are going to have to modify them but it would be nice to get it clear what the modification is going to be. I think there are three points, one, to allow connection to the sewer and that connection be metered if I was understanding correct. Two, that there be some kind of sunseted variance for the connection to City water and likewise for the through and to extension on the water line conditioned on the development of the adjacent properties. Is that where we are trying to go? Does that help? Churchman: Yes Morrow: Mr. Morrow, that being the case I would move that instruct the City Attorney to prepare new findings of fact and conclusions of law for the variance requested by Builders Masonry. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree to instruct the City Counselor to draw up new findings of fact and conclusions of law as presented by Council, any further discussion? Bentley: So we don't have to go through this again next time, what time frame are we looking at for the sunset? Morrow: Well I would think, I want to think it through a little bit and talk to Wayne about it. It seems to me like the sunset clause has got to have something that discusses the hook ups being in a timely manner with the two projects that we are dealing with now. I do not want Builders Masonry to hold either one of those projects hostage nor do I want those projects to hold Builders Masonry hostage. So whatever verbiage it takes to get to that point is how we have to get there. Corrie: Any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #9: FINAL PLAT: LOS ALAMITOS NO. 3 SUBDIVISION, 58 LOTS EAST OF LOS ALAMITOS NO. 2 BY FARWEST DEVELOPERS: Corrie: Is there any representative from Los Alamitos here this evening? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 15 Bowcutt: Becky Bowcutt from Briggs Engineering. Corrie: Any questions on your final plat, anything that you want to tell us? Bowcutt: We did receive the comments from the City Engineer's office, I did write out a memo to Bruce Freckleton and faxed that over to him and Shari addressing each question and item that they brought forward. Corrie: Shari did you get a copy of that, did Council get copies of it? Morrow: So far I haven't found it in my packet. Rountree: Did you get confirmation on your fax? Bowcutt: Yes I did, I called, I got confirmation. I was kind of late in faxing it, I have been out. I kind had what Mr. Crookston has, we have the same voice. It was faxed to my office on Friday, I was out ill on Friday, Monday was a holiday, I called and talked with Shari today and she faxed it to me immediately when we realized I didn't have it. And then I answered it, so I was late in getting my response to the City Engineer's office. If you would like to me to go through these I can address them quickly. Corrie: Council, what is your pleasure, do you want her to go through them? Morrow: Well I guess, these are technical issues that our staff needs to deal with. My preference would be to have their concurrence and have them review it and say okay it is fine or it isn't fine. And for something that is not fine then the two of your are able negotiators you can handle the issue (inaudible). Bowcutt: I think in reading through these Mr. Mayor and Mr. Morrow, there were not any items that I would call critical. Most of them were just some technical things verbiage changes on notes. The only item that I thought was of importance was the issue of Nampa Meridian Irrigation District and putting a separate lot for the Hunters lateral on our plat. My response to them was that I was told to do that by Nampa Meridian but after meeting with John Anderson at our irrigation committee he indicated in that meeting that the board had to concur with that. And so my response reflected that. So believe the irrigation issue is the only critical thing is that a separate lot can be placed in an easement, how does Nampa Meridian want to handle that. Are they going to own it and maintain it and that I believe I can work out with the staff. Rountree: I have one question of Becky, on the plat notes number 5 it says lot 10 block 9 is dedicated to the City of Meridian for a school site. Bowcutt: That is correct Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 16 Rountree: Then staff's review of the engineering indicates that lot 10, Block 9 is to be under a blanket easement to Ada County Highway District for heavy duty maintenance of drainage facilities. How is that going to work? Bowcutt: No, I believe they, they are talking about the drainage lot. The drainage lot is lot 20, block 10. 1 think that was an error, they are referencing the wrong lot. We don't have any drainage facilities on the school lot. Rountree: The other question then I would have about 10 block 9 will that have a perimeter fence and will provisions be made for leveling that site and is the ownership really to the City of Meridian or to the Meridian School District? Bowcutt: In the previous hearings on other parcels that had this school lot reserved out of their property the indication was the City of Meridian wanted the property dedicated to them. That if it was to be utilized for an elementary school the City would transfer title therefore to the school district. If the school district decided not to utilize it then the City would have it for a park. Bu they felt more comfortable keeping it within the City. The Sundance Subdivision to the north that was dedicated to Meridian school District who then in turn dedicated it to the City of Meridian when the high school site was purchased. Rountree: How about the fencing? Bowcutt: The perimeter fencing I don't believe that has been discussed. They are under their development agreement and under the ordinance they have got to fence their perimeter and there is a statement in Bruce's comments. You are talking would they fence the perimeter like the southerly perimeter of the school. Rountree: Actually I am more concerned about the subdivision lots that back up to lot 10. Bowcutt: I would assume that Shari would impose the same requirements on perimeter fencing wouldn't you? You guys don't allow building permits to be issued until they get their perimeter fencing. Then it is also indicated that the Ridenbaugh shall be fenced with non-combustible, both sides of the Hunter lateral even though piped would have to be fenced. I would assume the perimeter fencing requirement listed in the requirements would apply to the rear of those lots. I think if it is on record and Mr. Goldsmith's attorney is here tonight also monitoring (inaudible). I will make sure Mr. Goldsmith is aware that will be required. As far as leveling that your other question there has been no discussion on leveling that or filling it. I haven't really walked that piece, I know there is an elevation difference. Rountree: Those are the only questions I had on the plat. Stiles: Were you indicating that you would fence along the back of those lots? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 17 Bowcutt: That back up to the school lot we call it. Stiles: Yes, and then there is also a pedestrian 20 foot pedestrian walk way that they would need to fence. Rountree: That is in your comments. Stiles: We want to make sure that was done so it doesn't end up as a lot clearance lot. Bowcutt: Okay, it said in there either construct or bond with the City. Stiles: They would need to be constructed prior to building permits. Corrie: Thank you, any further questions from Council to Becky? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, as a point of discussion, I don't have a problem with approving the final plat subject to the staff sign off. Obviously Gary, Shari and Will are not going to sign off on that plat until such time that they are satisfied that the conditions are going to be met. I have good confidence in their abilities, Ms. Bowcutt is an abled representative of in this case both Mr. Goldsmith and the City of Meridian. She is well aware of what it is we do and what we would like. My one concern that I would like to see addressed and Councilman Bentley raises a good issue in terms of the leveling or the condition of the school lot. I think what I want to see there is something that is leveled, it is not a dumping ground for excess concrete and those kinds of things so that we as a City can maintain the lot and keep the weeds down with the equipment that we have or soon will have. I think that as for you Mr. McColl and Ms. Bowcutt that your client needs to be aware of that and that from my perspective any motion to approve the final plat would have that within the motion so that the taxpayers of Meridian are not paying to fix up something that should be in good shape to begin with. Those would be my thoughts concerning it. I do think the staff is capable of handling this or more than capable of handling it. I would like to see the leveling issue addressed in the motion. Rountree: That is what I was thinking when I brought it up. That we don't need to inherit a problem. Morrow: Good thinking Rountree: If you want to make that motion I will second it. Morrow: So I will make the motion that we approve the final plat for Los Alamitos No. 3 Subdivision by Farwest Developers subject to the satisfactory meeting of the requirements of all staff and agencies and subject to the school site/park site lot being in a level clean manner with capable of being maintained by a mower system. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 18 Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow to approve the final plat of Los Alamitos No. 3 Subdivision subject to staff approval of sign off and the condition of the school lots as discussed in the point of discussion, any further comments? Hearing none, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #10: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A GROUP DAY CARE FOR 12 CHILDREN BY PATRICIA REED: Corrie: At this time I will open the public hearing and invite either Patricia Reed or a representative to come forward first. Patricia Reed, 2167 Jericho Way, Meridian, was sworn by the City Attorney. Reed: I wanted to comment that I already have my certificate of occupancy and brought my day care license tonight. I don't know if you need to see these or not. Corrie: I don't know whether they do or not, we will just hold them in case they do. Comments from staff? Stiles: Is that what we already have on file? Reed: You should because I had to get this in order to have my first license for five. Stiles: You certificate of occupancy, and your license may change based on your having more children there. Reed: I talked to the lady at the day care licensing and she said that the number of children that I had was not a concern. That had to be dealt with through Meridian. Stiles: So the license we have on file is Reed: The license that you have on file proves that I don't have a criminal record and that I have been approved to do such work. So the number of children I guess isn't the issue through the State it is only through Meridian. Stiles: So they don't license the facility for Reed: No they don't Corrie: Council members, questions? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 19 Morrow: You have read the staff conditions and were in agreement with those at the P and Z level and there has been no change since the P & Z. Reed: Yes Rountree: Mr. Morrow, on a point of discussion on those I would like to consider item 4 on page 8 relative to the assessment of sewer and water. I have stated my position previously on these that it is a commercial endeavor and I think that sewer and water ought to be assessed at a commercial rate. But whatever, Gary we have talked about that in the past, do you have any more enlightenment on that? Is it working or not working? Is it more work for you? Smith: Mr. Mayor and Councilmen, we only have one rate that is a cost per thousand gallons for sewer and water whether it is residential or commercial. The rub is on commercial each month of the year the user is charged sewer for the amount that goes through the water meter as opposed to a residential use that has a water average that is used for the following summer months for sewer assessments. We have made some policy decisions, I guess I have, on buildings that have a substantial amount of landscaping outside water use. In those cases we have reverted back to residential billing for that commercial use. So, unless this residence has a separate water meter for sprinkler water in my mind it would be unfair to charge them a commercial user on the commercial user basis because of the amount of landscaping that they have and the fact that it was a residence at one time and that landscaping I don't believe has changed from what it was as a residence. The only thing that we were looking at on the possibility of a change of assessment was the amount of water that they would use. That is why we put that standard comment on all residential buildings that are converted to a commercial use. Rountree: So you are comfortable with the condition in the findings that takes care of your concerns? Smith: I didn't read the findings specifically to see what it said. Rountree: It is basically entering into an agreement with the City. Smith: Reassessment yes and we do that on all commercial buildings or commercial users. Rountree: That helps me too, thanks. Corrie: Any further questions of the applicant? Thank you, since this is a public hearing is there anyone else from the public that would like to enter testimony at this time on the conditional use permit? Seeing none, council? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 20 Bentley: Mr. Mayor, I would move that the Meridian City Council adopt the findings of fact Corrie: If we are ready to do that I will close the public hearing. I will close the public hearing, Mr. Bentley. Bentley: I would move that the Meridian City Council adopt the findings of fact and conclusions of law as presented from Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission. Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley, second by Mr. Tolsma to approve findings of fact and conclusions of law as adopted and approved by the Planning and Zoning, roll call vote. ROLL CALL VOTE: Tolsma - Yea, Rountree - Yea, Bentley -Yea, Morrow - Yea MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Corrie: Entertain a motion on the decision or recommendation. Bentley: Mr. Mayor, the City of Meridian City Council hereby recommends that they approve the conditional use permit requested by the applicant for the property described in the application with the conditions set forth in the findings of fact and conclusions of law or similar conditions as found justified and appropriate by the City Council. And that the property be required to meet the water and sewer requirements, the fire and life safety codes, uniform fire code and other ordinances of the City of Meridian. The conditional use permit should be subject to review upon notice to the applicant by the City. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley, second by Mr. Rountree on the decision and recommendation, all those in favor? Opposed? ►TAIs] 9[M 0KOY1VV12193W_IIWi7 ITEM #11: REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A CHILD CARE CENTER FOR 12+ CHILDREN BY RAYMOND CHACE: Corrie: Is Mr. Chace or a representative here? Chace: My name is Raymond Chace, Crookston: Mr. Mayor, is this not a public hearing? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 21 Corrie: It is not on my agenda • • ,' �TIVIVINn11C11111 Berg: Shari, this does not require two public hearings does it? Stiles: No Corrie: Mr. Chace? Chace: Would you like me to offer a brief synopsis. We put in an offer to purchase the property at 1302 East First Street. The City of Meridian requested the conditional use permit for a child care center for 12 or more children. I sit on the board of directors of the parent company and we have reviewed the comments from the engineer, the planning director, the fire department. I personally attended the ACHD hearing and reviewed the district health and welfare comments and irrigation questions and the proposal. I am prepared to answer any questions you have. This is the last hurdle I believe before the purchase contract is completed. Corrie: Okay, Council, questions of Mr. Chace? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, you are in agreement then with all of the staff conditions and you have no problem with complying with any of those? Chace: Yes sir and no we don't have any problem complying. Corrie: Thank you Mr. Chace. Council, have you had a chance to read the findings of fact and conclusions of law, any questions? Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council, I had a question on page 10, item G. The last part of that statement. It says "a conditional use should not be restricted to a period of authorization but may be reviewed annually upon notice to the applicant for violation of any conditions imposed herein and in other day care conditional uses and other conditional use applications." I guess I just didn't understand if they are going to have to abide by conditions placed on other conditional use permits. Should, the previous one had that comment in it too, I wonder if it should be stopped at herein. Corrie: Counselor? Crookston: That would be fine. Rountree: There or the second and? Crookston: It would be herein, in the fourth line, period the end. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 22 Stiles: Thanks Corrie: Thank you Ms. Stiles, any other corrections. I will entertain a motion on the findings of fact and conclusions. Rountree: Mr. Mayor, I move that the Meridian City Council adopts these modified findings of fact and conclusions of law. Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree, second by Mr. Bentley to accept the Planning and Zoning Commissions findings of fact and conclusions of law as modified, roll call vote. ROLL CALL VOTE: Tolsma - Yea, Rountree - Yea, Bentley - Yea, Morrow -Yea MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Corrie: Motion for the decision or recommendation? Rountree: Mr. Mayor, I move that the Meridian City Council approve the conditional use permit requested by the applicant for the property described in the application with the conditions set forth in the findings of fact and conclusions of law. And that the property be required to meet the water and sewer requirements, the fire and life safety codes, uniform fire code and other ordinances of the City of Meridian. The conditional use should be subject to review upon notice to the applicant by the City. Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion by Mr. Rountree, second by Mr. Tolsma on the decision and recommendation as stated, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #12: REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR BUILDING EXPANSION AT MERIDIAN AUTOMOTIVE AND MACHINE BY JOHN NESMITH: Corrie: Is John or a representative here? Gibson: Mr. Mayor, James Gibson, I am the project architect representing Mr. Nesmith. My address is P.O. Box 219 in Eagle, 83616. Corrie: Do you want to give us a quick run down on what is happening here just for the record. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 23 Gibson: Certainly, we want to construct a small addition to the existing Meridian Automotive and Machine business located at this referenced address. The project is located in a zone that requires a conditional use and that triggers a number of requirements such as improvement of sidewalks, landscaping and so on. We have reviewed the matter carefully with the planner, we think that we had a very good hearing with the Planning and Zoning Commission. We reviewed it with ACHD and have reviewed the notes of all of those meetings and we have no differences with what is being proposed. The applicant is willing to meet all of the proposed conditions. Corrie: Council, questions of Mr. Gibson? Thank you sir Morrow: Mr. Mayor, Ms. Stiles has a comment. Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council, I guess the only real problem I have with this is the continued use of the lot as a sales lot. One of my comments was that at no time should that be used as a sales lot and it is on a daily basis. I guess I am wondering what you do when you are granting a conditional use permit for something that is not in compliance today and by the granting of a conditional use permit is not likely not to ever comply. I mean so he gets the conditional use permit and he is able to build onto his building but if currently the lot is being used as an impound yard for the towing at least for his overflow I believe and we continually have the eye sores of the used cars and motorcycles and whatever for sale on the lot when they are specifically prohibited in old town. So I need direction from Council if they are going to be allowed to get the building permit and proceed how are we going to enforce getting, enforce the no cars for sale on the lot. Morrow: There is an original conditional use permit for the business is that correct? Stiles: No Morrow: There is not? Stiles: Not that I am aware of. Stiles: Yes Morrow: I thought every business in Old Town had to have a conditional use. Stiles: Yes they do Morrow: And the occupant that was in the building to them had a conditional use. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 24 Stiles: Not that I am aware of, how long have you been there John? (Inaudible) Stiles: I don't know what, who the owner was prior to that. I can't say what happened then. (Inaudible) Stiles: Gary says it was an auto sales lot. (Inaudible) Nesmith: The original, I believe I talked to the owner of the building, well approximately was set up as Sproat Ford and then it went to Gibson Welker and then it was Meridian Auto Sales and then Dick Ferra, Dick's Car Corral is who owned it or actually rented it from Joyce Rush which we purchased it from. I guess in reference to her comments as far as car sales. It is only occasional, it is not used as a sales lot. In my opinion, occasionally we sell our own vehicles and, it is not used as a car sales lot at all. Yes there are several vehicles out there in the parking lot but those are all there either waiting to be repaired or in storage waiting for people to pick up their vehicle. So as far as I am concerned I don't see where there is a problem. Nobody has ever complained to me about the cars being there personally, evidently it seems to be an issue. I just as far as conditions and planning and zoning I didn't want to be prohibited to sell my own vehicle on the property because I never felt that it was a problem. I am not selling smashed up Junkers, there is just occasionally one or two. I think the most there has ever been is two vehicles out there for sale at any one given time. That is the only issue as far as I am concerned. I didn't want that to be, for me not to be able to get rid of a vehicle or display it for sale. Crookston: Mr. Nesmith, the vehicles that are sold do you own all of those vehicles? Nesmith: Yes, we occasionally required from what the towing business is you get some vehicles that are impounded going through the normal channels as far as I, we have had a couple through the Meridian City or they get impounded that basically give up on. Most of the stuff that is poor value, they are not even what I would consider a junker have never been displayed out there. The only thing that has ever been displayed is of a normal probably at least a value of $1000 or more. We end up occasionally no different occasionally you end up with vehicles of your own that you want to sell. Occasionally I did, it has probably been a couple of years ago I allowed a couple, in fact Howard Foley was one of them that I allowed him to park his vehicle there to, he asked as a favor to park it there to let people see it. That is not something that has been very common. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 25 Crookston: Who owns the cars when they are offered for sell, the entity, you personally or is there a Nesmith: There is an entity in Nesmith Towing would either own them or myself personally. Depending on a situation, depending on how they are titled. Normally the towing company does all of that. That is where we generally produce a car from is from an impound. Crookston: Does the towing company own the land and the lot? Nesmith: No they don't Crookston: I think that could be a problem because it is not the owner of the property that is selling the vehicle. Nesmith: But they are one and the same, I own the towing company which, maybe I am not following you. Crookston: You are a different entity than your towing business is that correct? Nesmith: Correct Crookston: Thank you Corrie: Mr. Bentley? Bentley: Well the problem I see with this is a problem we are having occurring all over town. Where on vacant lots there are cars up here and for sale. There are no permits for selling them and what Shari is pointing at we are trying to get away from having all of these cars parked all over no matter what shape they are in. Without being licensed and conditioned for type of use. Secondly, I someone is going to have to help me out with this. If this is a conditional use requirement and the original building is a conditional use and isn't then how can we have a conditional use for the second phase of it? Morrow: Part of the answer to that is that any addition of these size requires a conditional use permit to be issued. So, this would qualify under that. I guess where am having a problem with this is if everything in Old Town forever was supposed to be, every business was supposed to be there by Conditional use it seems to me that there ought to have been a pick up and building (inaudible) maybe the front portion was a car lot of some sort. (Inaudible) at what point when the ownership changes (inaudible) I guess it started in 1976 with the land use planning act is where it probably should have started in terms of conditional use. Why is there not a conditional use there now? Crookston: I would have to assume but I believe there is no conditional use there because when that business was first there it was already operating and it had some Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 26 grandfather rights. When the use changed then they should have gotten a conditional use permit if at that point the City had its ordinance, the zoning and development ordinance then they would have been required to do that because it is a change in use. Nesmith: Actually it was being used as a repair facility (inaudible) on one end. I don't know if that makes any difference or not. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, the question Counselor then is from Mr. Nesmith's standpoint if it is continually or almost continuously been used since the adoption of the ordinance as an auto sales facility and you are not required, I thought that you had to have a conditional use with each owner. Crookston: In old town you do, if you change the ownership or you change the use of the property we have a procedure for a transfer of that conditional use. The old owner can't just transfer it to the new owner or the existing owner can't just change it to a different use under our ordinance. Morrow: So my question is how do we get to where we are not because basically from his standpoint he buys it from some folk that are using it as a used car lot Dick's Car Corral which appears to be fairly continuous from our ordinance. So what precludes him from selling cars whether they belong to John Nesmith personally or the Nesmith Towing or to Nesmith Automotive and Machine Shop? Crookston: I think that the issue really here is we need to find out the history of the property to know what uses were established at what time and then find out whether there is a use that Mr. Nesmith is using now that did have some grandfather rights. My memory of that place the use has been changed three or four times. But, I can't say that without looking at the records and seeing what was there. If it had been the same use all of the time I think that the City would have to allow that use. Since there has been a change of use and now under our existing ordinance there has been a change of ownership then a conditional use permit is required. Morrow: Given the history of the property the (inaudible) and the front portion could have been a continuous car lot or automotive sales lot of some sort. Crookston: It could have been but the use that had not been in existence would not be an authorized use and would need a conditional use permit. Morrow: What you are indicating is that needs to be determined is which one of the uses has not been existence in terms of what they (inaudible). Crookston: That is correct, we need to determine which use was in existence in the past and which use was not. When we are talking about the use in the past is that use in fact a grandfather right that was existing at the time when the City passed the zoning and development ordinance which was back in 1984. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 27 Morrow: So essentially whatever use it had in 1984 would be a grandfather right through today. Crookston: That is correct. Morrow: So do we know what it was used in 1984? Nesmith: As far as I know it was used as a sales lot. I don't know if you know Ron but as far as I remember it would be Meridian Auto Sales was there in combination with a repair shop on the north end which would have been Collins Automotive. Tolsma: Yes, because Dick Ferra was in the front and (inaudible) Nesmith: Then there was another sign on the end of the building with Collins Automotive with a separate entrance there. Tolsma: In 1974 we had (End of Tape) (Inaudible) Stiles: Mr. Mayor and Council I don't believe it is the use that existed in 1984 that establishes the grandfather rights. The grandfather rights would be, do not continue forever. Grandfather rights typically if that use is discontinued for a year the right no longer exists. In our ordinance right now grandfather rights are not transferred. The use as a sales lot is specifically prohibited now in Old Town. People that have tried to get sales lots in other areas that want to say back in, the Ugly Duckling was a sales lot too but I don't think we are going to grant a grandfather right for somebody to start parking cars and selling them there, I would hope. There is a significant number of cars that are for sale throughout the year and I believe Mr. Nesmith has wanted to get a dealers license. He is limited to five cars a year that he can sell from the towing business? What was it you told me you were limited to? Nesmith: We were talking about getting a dealers license and I was proposing to you of using about, about approximately 5 spaces was what we were talking about. At that point in time with considering the amount of cars that I would need to sell or really lose interest (inaudible) I decided I didn't want to do it. Stiles: But there was a limit on how many cars you could sell that would require you to get a dealers license is that correct? Nesmith: No I don't believe that was ever issue, we were talking about Stiles: I think there is a limit on the number of cars that you can sell before you are considered a dealer. Nesmith: I don't know Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 28 Stiles: I don't consider it a grandfather right I consider it a violation of the ordinance and I will continue to have our code enforcement officer enforce it because it is not what we want to see on East First Street coming into Meridian. No matter what kind of condition the vehicles are in. They are not licensed they are not registered, they are just sitting there for weeks or maybe days or I think it is totally inappropriate. Nesmith: Is there a possibility that you could be misunderstanding vehicles that have been in other words waiting there for repair and not actually for sale. Stiles: They have no license plates on them, they are sitting there with big white letters and I don't think anybody is driving them or that they are capable of being driven. Nesmith: Sometimes vehicles can have plates pulled off and not actually be for sale. Stiles: They have no plates and it is blatantly for sale. Rountree: I don't want to change the subject, but I had a question for Shari related to the landscaping requirements. Stiles: What did the findings say? Rountree: I believed it talked about that they would have to meet the landscaping ordinance but there was only a discussion about planting of one possibly two trees. Stiles: And that would not meet the landscaping requirement. I don't want it to be misconstrued just because the conditional use permit is approved everything is fine with what has been submitted. I would like there to be some real conditions to this conditional use permit. That landscaping is put in and meets the requirements, the paving is done, the striping is done. Nesmith: What paving, because it is already paved. Stiles: Any of the gravel area that is being used for parking. Nesmith: In other words you require the whole piece of property to be paved? Stiles: If it is a parking area that is our ordinance requirement. Nesmith: One thing that I have to say is when we were at the P & Z meeting James was asking maybe what they had in mind as far as trees and where they could be planted. Because as far as initial along East First we didn't think it would be appropriate to put any more landscaping than what the City had already done because of site triangles coming, approaching Bower onto East First. I didn't think it would be appropriate to put Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 29 any trees or bushes up there because the roadway is elevated above Bower Street. So in my opinion there wasn't any point to it or any benefit in doing that. Stiles we did discuss additional landscaping along the rail road corridor there to maybe soften the impact of the yard he has got there now. They didn't seem to indicate there was a problem with that. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, question for Shari, I know that in our packet here there is a site plan for this project. Is there anywhere within the information that you have got in that plan that indicates what is to be landscaped and so on and so forth talking about the railroad corridor and maybe there is some along East First and maybe there isn't in the site triangle issue. Has there been a plan brought forth with all of those items addressed? Stiles: No there hasn't, what you have in your packet is all that I have. Ada County Highway District is requiring them to cut off this, I think they are cutting off this access on the northern part of the boundary. Morrow: You mean the one adjacent to the railroad tracks for the Union Pacific right of way. Stiles: Yes, they want right in and right out curb return driveway there because of the site problems. But, I would expect to receive a plan if this is approved with their building permit that shows how they are going to meet all of the ordinance requirements or to reject the building plans. Corrie: Any further questions or comments Mr. Rountree? Rountree: I guess my only comment is if the conditional use is approved it has to meet all of the City ordinances and one of those is not allowing sales. If you continue to sell then you would be violation of City Ordinance without a variance and I would strongly support the pursuit of enforcement of the City ordinance. I guess I have a question for Shari is it because we don't have an existing conditional use that we have now that no enforcement action has been taken or have there been enforcement actions taken? Stiles: There have been phone calls made, I believe some of the cars have had stickers placed on them, but as far as this particular vehicle, there are two of them out there now, I don't know if John has been called or anybody at his shop. Nesmith: I have been there the whole time, there has never been one car stickered and I have never received a phone or an official complaint in my capacity, not once. Stiles: I have called personally at least 3 times. Nesmith: I guess I didn't receive the call. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 30 Stiles: The cars were moved as soon as I called later in the day they were moved. The particular one that has been there for quite a while now is the brown pick up with the big for sale (Inaudible). Nesmith: I guess, is it just the lettering in the windows that is unsightly, I guess I never, when you have a vehicle full, you have 40 cars out there I didn't really see that, my personal opinion see where, I know there has not been more than 2 cars out there for sale at any given time to my knowledge. I know there is a (inaudible) Stiles: I guess it is the fact that they are for sale is in violation of the ordinance. If one of your employees has a car and he happens to have a for sale sign in the window I don't think there is anything we can do about that. But cars that continue to stay there day after day and maybe move their location and without licensing that is obvious that it is being used as a sales lot. Morrow: John, I have one more question, in your mind are you sure that you understand the conditions of landscaping and so on and so forth that need to be done. Have you seen a plan of those, has the architect drawn you anything based on these findings and conclusions? I guess my point is that it seems like to me it would make sense to know what all has to be done and the cost of that before you pressed on much further. There is some dilemma in my mind here in terms of car sale issue. I think that is a legitimate issue and there are a couple of sides to that question that I think you need to resolve and put a pencil to and see how this works out. Very candidly if we vote tonight to approve these findings of fact and conclusions as written you would have your conditional use permit and then you would also have some conditions placed upon you that you may not want to do or it may not pencil out. You may need to change the design and so on and so forth. I guess what I am asking is would you like to review these for a couple of weeks and put some cost to it and (inaudible) and then make the determination whether you want to go forward with this in this format or in some other format. I know that from my own experience in other cities with these same kinds of requirements it always makes great sense to know what the bottom line of the requirements was before I pressed forward with the project. I think that the one thing that I am getting from this hearing so far tonight is there is a large degree of uncertainty here. Ms. Stiles is correct in her determination of the sales issues. Counselor has some good points in terms of his interpretations. But I don't think that if I am understanding (inaudible) If I were an owner I would want to make sure that I totally understood what the cost of this was before I go forward. So that is a suggestion to you. Nesmith: Was there going to be, I guess one thing that I don't believe (inaudible) in the P & Z meeting we asked where they might want to place the trees because we needed a little help there as far as Bowers Street is totally undeveloped. I don't think, I think it is not appropriate trees, there are no sidewalks or anything there along the street at all. The only where, you know would be appropriate or where there would actually be room is along the rail road corridor. Which still in light of the what the rest of the corridor looks like would be the only trees planted in Meridian along the rail road tracks. So I Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 31 still, we were a little needing some help in guidance. In other words what somebody else's plan of what they wanted it to look like no different then when they originally redid the main street and did these curbs and gutters and put the tree in up front that is already there. Obviously somebody had a plan as far as what that was supposed to look like. Nobody has really presented and said this is, we think you need, nobody said we want 5 trees planted along (inaudible) Nobody has set any requirements at all. Morrow: I think there is a combination of things, I think clearly what you need to do is visit with Ms. Stiles and get the requirements. There are certain square footage requirements that trigger various landscaping things. A lot of things are done in terms of percentages so that is kind of up to you to meet those percentages and design whatever it is you want. It is not like in Boise where they may mandate a certainly of tree and a certain location. You still have the opportunity to have or place landscaping (inaudible) beneficial to not only the City but to your operation too. Like to give you an example, item D under paragraph 8 of the conclusions says all ordinances of the City of Meridian must be met including but not limited to the uniform building code, uniform fire code, uniform plumbing code, the fire and life safety codes and all parking and landscaping requirements. If we pass this issue tonight then basically you would be bound by all of those codes and ordinances and statutes. What I am suggesting to you is that it may make some sense to find out what the cost of those things are before we press on. You may also want to decide that you don't want to sell vehicles there any more and so the (inaudible) Ms. Stiles would then no longer be an issue. Maybe there is a better outlet through an existing place that you can sell the vehicles. So that is something that you might want to have just a little bit of time to think through. So, the choices that we have as a Council are basically at your direction. If you wish to go forward with the project tonight and we pass on the findings and conclusions as we have been then you will be required all of those things. If you wish to take a couple of weeks and work this through to see how it works out for you and spend some time working with Ms. Stiles and or the public works folk and then your architect to determine cost and then come and say okay this is really what we want to do here is our plan. Then that may make some sense to. (Inaudible) Nesmith: Can you tell me when the Council reconvenes on making a decision. In other words (inaudible) Morrow: That would be March 4, that is basically two weeks from tonight. (Inaudible) we can table or continue until our next meeting to give you some options in terms of (inaudible) Gibson: Mr. Mayor, would it be possible to have a brief recess so we could discuss the matter and decide what we want to do. Corrie: I think that would be apropos. FIVE MINUTE RECESS Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 32 Corrie: John and James are you prepared to make a decision? While we are sitting here Council if you haven't received your new master key, have you got two keys (inaudible). Gibson: Mr. Mayor, we have reviewed the conditions as proposed and we believe that really the only issue that needs to be considered or addressed here is the sales lot question. All of the other issues such as the landscaping and meeting code requirements we believe no matter how many weeks we think about it we know that if you approve the conditional use we are going to have to meet those requirements. We are not asking for any variation or consideration on those points. We do understand what the requirements are and Mr. Nesmith has a good handle on what his cost would be. So we don't believe that is an issue that should delay the matter. The question is really the sales lot issue. We understand that an automobile sales lot is patently not permitted in this land use zone and we are not asking for that. It is a question of whether the occasional or intermittent display of a vehicle for sale constitutes a sales lot. The applicant doesn't believe so and doesn't want to establish a sales lot at this location. We believe that the same ordinance requirement should apply to this piece of property as every other piece of property in this zone. It should not be a sales lot and we don't believe it is. We believe that the occasional display of a vehicle for sale is in fact permitted. Somebody might park in the parking lot here and display a vehicle for sale. However the question is really if the owner is going to continually place vehicles there for a long period of time we realize that is different than just driving around with a for sale sign in your window. However the matter, the question before the Council is really whether the occasional or intermittent parking and display of a vehicle which in fact is for sale constitutes a sales lot or not. We believe that it doesn't so we are asking for consideration on that basis. Maybe Mr. Nesmith has further comment on the matter, is there anything that we can further answer or say. Corrie: I guess it comes down to interpretations in the law here counselor, you have your interpretation and he has his and the courts could have theirs. But where do you advise the Council? Crookston: Well the courts are always right though (inaudible) The problem that I see is the continuous sales, I realize that it is a towing place and I know that towing shops sometimes tow a vehicle that isn't worth a darn and in order to even pay their cost to even tow it the vehicle has to be sold by the towing shop. But I am not sure, I would have to do a little research but I don't see how that would be like an owner, like a person who owned a house that wanted to sell its vehicle and so you put it out there and put a sign on it and left it in the driveway and I don't think that is the kind of situation that we are dealing with. We are talking about as I understand it we are talking about sales of quite a few vehicles by the owner of the towing shop and it is a sale of his vehicles that is for sure. But I think it is different when you have one or two sales per year as opposed to 13 to 29 or whatever the amount is. I think that is the issue. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 33 Gibson: Mr. Mayor and Council I think you legal counsel has seen it the way that we do, and it is a matter of judgment. Whether Mr. Nesmith has a license as a dealer should bear in the matter. If he was doing something that requires a license to do it then it is patently a sales lot. If he is doing something that doesn't require a car sales license then it becomes in my mind much more questionable whether it is or isn't a sales lot. Maybe Mr. Nesmith could tell us about how many cars a years are sold there or what the difference would be in number of cars that are parked there. If there are say 25 cars normally parked there waiting for repair or whatever and one or two of them happen to be for sale. If we say, well we can't have those one or two for sale but we can still park the 25 cars there is that going to make any difference to the appearance of the City of Meridian. I think those are valid questions. Admittedly we are talking about perhaps more of a legal interpretation than an architectural question and I am the project architect not the Mr. Nesmith's attorney, so for what it is worth. Corrie: Counsel, any words of wisdom on how you would like to proceed on this? Crookston: I would like to have an opportunity to take a look at it if necessary to do a little research to find out sales of this type whether they have been held, say there are other cases. It may say if you sell ten cars a year then you are basically a sales lot (inaudible). I believe that people can sell property on their own lot. That is why I was asking about whether Mr. Nesmith owned the vehicles and who was selling them. I think that is a key question also, if the entity that owns the lot is not the entity that is selling the car then I think we do have a real problem with sales. And it being a sales lot. would need some more information on that as to who the owner is and who is the owner of the vehicle that is being sold or vehicles that are being sold. Bentley: I see two issues here, first off this request isn't for a conditional use permit to sell automobiles it is for building a building to repair them. But on the automobile sales issue we have got a business that is going to generate cars for sale, you have vehicles towed in, the people don't pay the impound fee so you wind up owning them. So that generates a vehicle. You have vehicles put in for repair, people can't afford to pick them up so that generates even more. So I think the sales issue is a problem and I realize the counselor is going to have to research but I feel that it is a justified problem for the City that these vehicles are going to be routinely there for sale. Corrie: Any further comments? I guess hearing that we need to have some action on the request for the conditional use permit. Morrow: Well as a point of discussion certainly the way that conditional use permit is presented to us is that we pass the conditional use permit the issue with respect to sales then becomes a City/Nesmith legal issue. If the counselor finds what the requirements are then you have no choice (inaudible) whatever it means then you will comply or you will be in conflict with the City (inaudible). Having said that I think that Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 34 what I would like to do is adopt the findings of fact and conclusions as prepared for us by P & Z. Rountree: One comment to Councilman Morrows, I guess it would be a question for Counsel, would it be to our advantage to have in the official record the resolve of what (inaudible) for the future enforcement action that may or may not have to be done by the City. Of if it has to be here as a civil matter after the action (inaudible) would that help your case (inaudible) certainly if it was on record the applicant would understand what the City's position was. Crookston: Certainly there is nothing wrong with having it in the record. It is not something that generally people come down to City Hall and say let me see what was done here and things like that. It is not like we have, it is not in the nature of the ordinance at this juncture. We could eventually pass an ordinance about it. But I don't see that it hurts whatsoever to have an opinion rendered by myself as to what a sale of an automobile is and how many times you may or may not be able to do that on property that you own if you are the person that owns the car and the property. But I agree with Walt also, I think that this is an issue that you can grant the conditional use and then he has to comply. If he doesn't comply then we have got the zoning enforcement officer and we in some cases maybe the City police has some involvement in it. Rountree: Thank you, with that response I agree with what Walt's comments were about conditional use. It stipulates you comply with the ordinances, so if there is an enforcement issue then there will be an enforcement issue. Corrie: I need a motion to this effect, whatever you do with the findings. Morrow I think that I did move to accept the findings of fact and conclusions of law as prepared for us by P & Z. Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion to approve the findings of fact and conclusions of law as adopted by the Planning and Zoning Commission, any further discussion? Roll call vote ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Bentley - Nay, Rountree - Yea, Tolsma - Yea MOTION CARRIED 3 Yea, 1 Nay Corrie: Decision or recommendation? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, the City Council of the City of Meridian approves the conditional use permit requested by the applicant for the property described in the application with the conditions set forth in the findings of fact and conclusions of law or similar Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 35 conditions as found justified and appropriate by the City Council. That the property be required to meet the water and sewer requirements, the fire and life safety codes, Uniform Fire Code, parking, paving, landscaping requirements and all ordinances of the City of Meridian. The conditional use permit should be subject to compliance review upon notice to the applicant by the City. Tolsma: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Tolsma for the decision and recommendation as stated, any further discussion? All those approved? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: 3 Yea, 1 Nea ITEM #13: REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A 2,800 SQUARE FOOT FAST FOOD RESTAURANT WITH DRIVE THRU WINDOW BY JACK IN THE BOX: Corrie: Is there a representative of Jack in the box here tonight to give us some information? Smith: My name is Chris Smith, I am the regional construction manager for Foodmakers owners and operators of Jack in the Box. My address 18161 Segali Park Drive, (inaudible) Washington. We have proposed to construct an approximately a 2,800 square foot restaurant single story wood frame building with all of the associated landscaping and parking requirements, grading and drainage as required by the City of Meridian and Ada County Highway District. We have received comments from the City of Meridian as well as Ada County Highway District and have no trouble with complying with all of their requested requirements. I would respectfully request that you grant us our conditional use permit. Any questions? Corrie: Council, questions? Thank you sir, question of Council to staff? Morrow: My only question would be is Gary and Shari satisfied with the responses? Stiles: Did the applicant, did you point out any of the proposed changes? We received a revised plan that is not real significant. There are changes to it as far as landscaping setbacks on Fairview and I just want to make sure that what you are approving is what they really want to do. Morrow: The only thing we can approve is what is in our packet at this juncture. Smith: That is correct that is why I didn't say anything. What we did is we talked to Shari before the meeting to say the changes that we want to make do not make any modifications to what the Ada County Highway District has recommended and or what the City as recommended. We want to tweak the site plan a little bit either direction Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 36 because our setbacks are bigger than what is required and would just allow us a little more versatility with the property. Stiles: The changes they have made are not significant. I would just like the Council to be aware that what they have submitted is not what they intend to do. Smith: I have some miniature site plans if you would like to look at them. Morrow: Mr. Smith, I am looking on this plan and I don't see (inaudible) I take it by your response there won't be a car wash bay on this project, is that what you are trying to tell me? Smith: That is correct. What we have done actually and if you look at the middle of the package at your findings of fact, the site plan that was submitted originally. We have moved the building a little bit closer to Fairview to allow parking on the south property line up against the old Smith's building. The site plan that is in your package was one that was originally submitted and it doesn't incorporate the Ada County Highway District concern or request for the curb cut on Fairview. But the site plan the 8 '/2 by 11 does. So in essence we want to tweak the site plan (inaudible) a little bit, none of those changes are beyond what the County or City (inaudible). Morrow: All landscaping is still the same? Smith: That is correct. Corrie: Any further questions? Council, what is your pleasure on the findings of fact? Bentley: Mr. Mayor, I would move that the City of Meridian City Council approve and adopt the findings of fact and conclusions of law as per the Planning and Zoning. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley, second by Mr. Rountree to approve the findings of fact and conclusions of law as prepared by the Meridian Planning and Zoning Commission, any further discussion? Roll call vote ROLL CALL VOTE: Morrow - Yea, Bentley - Yea, Rountree -Yea, Tolsma - Yea MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Rountree: I move the City Council of the City of Meridian approve the conditional use permit requested by the applicant for the property described in the application with the conditions set forth in the findings of fact and conclusions of law and that the property be required to meet the water and sewer requirements, the fire and life safety codes, Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 37 parking, paving, landscaping requirements and all ordinances of the City of Meridian. A conditional use should be subject to review upon notice to the applicant by the City. Morrow: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Rountree, second by Mr. Morrow, the decision and recommendation as read, all those approved? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #14: MARTY GOLDSMITH: CONTINUED DISCUSSION OF SALMON RAPIDS SUBDIVISION: Corrie: Is a representative from Salmon Rapids Subdivision here tonight? Smith: Mr. Mayor, I have a meeting scheduled with the representatives Thursday morning to discuss this sewer service area issue. So, I don't think anybody is still here from Marty Goldsmith's court. Rountree: Becky is here. (Inaudible) Smith: I think Becky is requesting that we table this until March 4. Corrie: Council, entertain a motion. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we table to March 4 for discussion of Salmon Rapids subdivision. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree to table to March 4 on the continued discussion of Salmon Rapids Subdivision, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #15: INTERSTATE CENTER: DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT, CC&R'S AND NON -DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT: Corrie: Is there a representative from Interstate? Seel: My name is Jonathan Seel with the W.H. Moore Company, 600 North Steelhead, Boise, Idaho. We have reviewed through the development agreement, the CC&R's Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 38 (inaudible) and also the non -development agreement and we are in agreement with them and we are prepared to sign them. Corrie: Council questions? Morrow: Only for the city attorney, all of these documents have been reviewed and approved by you? Crookston: I have reviewed I think three different sets of them. Ms. Stiles prepared some changes that I have not yet reviewed, she handed them to me tonight. So I have not reviewed those. There are some changes to my understanding from comments I made and gave to Mr. Seel. He prepared some changes to those but I have not Ms. Stiles changes so I would say that I am not in a position to say that I can approve them. Corrie: Is that all three of them counselor? Crookston: That is true. Corrie: Shari, are you prepared to answer some of Walt's questions or I am sorry (inaudible) Morrow: The question was has the counselor reviewed it and these are all approved from his standpoint. The answer is that no they have not been reviewed by him in the final format. Now have you seen them in the final format and they need to go to him so he can review what the final format is? Stiles: He got them just today because I revised them just today. This is probably the 6th time. Seel: No absolutely not, we provided these documents and the CC&R's and the non - development agreement back in the end of September. We got some comments from Mr. Crookston, I think probably a week and a week and a half ago which we incorporated in the documents and I delivered them to the Mayor at that time. I was under the understanding that these have been reviewed. We are anxious to move on with this thing and we have been dealing with this since September. We have a one page non -development agreement, we have a 4 or 5 page CC&R agreement. My understanding is the development agreement was approved today, Shari and I went through it. She gave me her final comments, we were in agreement on that and I thought this was all buttoned up. It is not 10:00 tonight and I am sitting here and I am told approximately that these agreements haven't been reviewed at this point. Winston Moore is more than anxious to get this thing wrapped up and is extremely frustrated at this point. And to sit here and then say that we have gone through 6 or 7 versions we haven't. We have provided and we have been waiting for changes. The only changes that I got were some handwritten changes that you provided a week and a half ago that I picked up. We incorporated those, I delivered them back here and said that was fine, Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 39 we will put those in. Now I am told that they have been reviewed, excuse my frustration but after you have been dealing with this for 4 or 5 months you get a little frustrated. We are ready to move on with this thing, I don't think it is that complex and I don't know what else to really say. Other than we have basically been at the beck and call, there have been changes and we have made them. Shari gave me changes I got her back red line and she has worked with me on those. We got those changed, I picked those things up today and we were ready to sign thing this afternoon and now I am told they are not ready. So I don't know where we are. Crookston: I can tell the Council that I did not see what Ms. Stiles and Mr. Seel worked out. Seel: We haven't done anything on the CC&R's and non -development agreement. The only changes that have been done on those have been the changes that you requested. What I have been advised is that Shari does not deal with those things that you deal with those. Well again I am a little confused here on this whole process other than it seems like it is getting a little convoluted. What we would like to do is to go ahead and proceed. We want to record this plat (End of Tape) but we haven't changed anything and I met with Mayor Corrie today, he provided me with document that we are under the impression were acceptable as they were. That is the information that I have given to Winston Moore, we are set we are going to get it approved tonight presumably and everything has been blessed and you can plan on getting them signed tomorrow. So I am sorry for being a little terse here but it is just a certain level of frustration at this point and I don't know what to do. Crookston: Mr. Mayor and Council I can't blame you Mr. Seel, I can't approve these until I have seen them and I specifically talking about the development agreement. Let me interject that I don't know that you can go anywhere until they are all done. I don't know that the Council should approve the CC&R's or non -development agreement until the development agreement is approved. Seel: Well I don't disagree with that and that is the dilemma that we are at. Again, maybe I am getting mixed signals here but I am told a development agreement is dealing with Shari and that was approved today. The impression at least that I got was that was okay, it was in the acceptable form. The CC&R's and non -development agreement are essentially your baby and the things that we provided back in September haven't changed other than the few comments that you marked on there and at that time you said you had reviewed and that they were okay. That is when I came over and picked them up. Crookston: All I am saying is that I have not reviewed the final document so that I can yes this is what I did, what I prepared and has the changes that I had in it. Because I haven't seen the final document. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 40 Seel: Why am I here today, I am sorry I thought we were supposed to be on the agenda tonight to get this approved. Again I apologize for being rude here but I am just Corrie: I was under the impression counselor you were going to review these and have it done by Monday, that is what you told me. Crookston: I can't, Mr. Mayor, I cannot approve them when I get them tonight. (Inaudible) Crookston: I got the development agreement tonight, between the special meeting and the regular meeting. As I understand it Mr. Seel and Shari worked on the document today. Seel: We worked on the development agreement, the non -development agreement is Crookston: That is what we are talking about. Seel: Okay, I think we are talking about two different issues. The development or the non -development agreement and CC&R's were provided back in September. I called you a week or a week and a half ago. You said they are ready and I said I would come by and pick them up. You had some hand written notes on them, I incorporated that in and I was under the assumption that they were done. We haven't touched them since, I have not talked to Shari about either one of those documents because she has told me that is not her baby. As far as the development agreement that is her responsibility and yes we have gone through it. She made a few changes today, I requested a few changes. I picked up what is an execution document in my mind today at 1:00 assuming that I was coming here tonight with the fact that we would have it blessed. Now I am told that we are not going to have any of the documents (inaudible) and I am presuming now at this point we are looking at potentially two weeks and I don't know how much longer. I think next time you are going to Winston Moore sitting here because he is more than frustrated at this point about this whole process. So I don't know what else to say. Corrie: Jonathan, let me get something clear in my mind, you made some changes in the development agreement and the non -development agreement today with Shari? Seel: No, on the development agreement with Shari, Shari gave me back comments last week, we looked through those. We made, the long and short of it is up until today we made some changes in the development agreement. Shari and I sat by phone today, wrapped up a few minor things, there were a few technicalities. With respect to the non -development agreement and CC&R's I have never talked to Shari about those, I have been advised that Mr. Crookston is responsible for those. That is why I have been calling Mr. Crookston on these things and that is why I have also talked to you to wrap those things up. So, we really have two things and at least my understanding we Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 41 have two people that are assuming responsibility for different documents. But as far as the CC&R's and the non -development agreement we have not made any changes in those and I have had no communication with Shari other than that they need to go to Wayne Crookston. So that is where I am right now. Very simply what we are trying to do is we are just trying to get this project through. We are trying to build here a good project for the City and we can't record the plat until we get these things signed and we can't sell any land or talk to any potential investors until we do that. Even at this point if it was approved tonight we are probably looking at April 1 st before we will have this plat recorded. That is an optimistic scenario. From what I am hearing tonight that is probably out the window. So we have some (inaudible) coming to town this week as I have talked to you that is an issue with people if they think the plat is not approved. They are a little bit reluctant to come forward. So that is where it is right now, and appreciate apologies but what I need is results right now. I need something that has been approved that I can come in front of you and we can get hopefully approved. I have spent a lot of time on the development agreement and Shari has. The non - development is one page, it should be pretty straight forward. So help me. Rountree: I question where we are, the CC&R's and non -development agreement are okay? Crookston: I believe they are, I have not seen the final document but if they are the same as what I have already reviewed then they are fine. The only question that I have is that in the development agreement because changes were made today. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, if I might offer for point of clarification here Mr. Seel is yes Ms. Stiles does work with the body of the development agreement. But the Council's charge to the City Attorney is that he is to review all of those from a legal standpoint to make sure that everything in fact is as we as a Council want it. In this particular instance based on what City Attorney Crookston is telling me is that the CC&R's and the non -development agreement he was in agreement with in terms of (inaudible) verbal reply from your perspective that everything was fine. He has not seen the very final document that has changes (inaudible) Seel: That is absolutely correct. Morrow: In terms of the development agreement if changes were being made as late as this afternoon how could that document have gone from the two of you working on it to him for review so that when we ask the question as a Council is the development agreement okay from a legal standpoint, his answer is I don't know I haven't seen it. And you are telling us that you guys were working on it yet this afternoon. Seel: We were working on and there have been delays and some changes that were promised on February 6. We have been pushing it from this end. I don't know what the arrangement is between Shari Stiles and Wayne Crookston (inaudible) Shari was handling that. I was under the impression that whatever changes were made and Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 42 acceptable for her would be appropriate and the reason for being here tonight is simply to have these things approved. So I don't disagree with the fact that there were some changes although not substantive changes, but yes changes as of today. But, again, I am going on what I have been advised and I was under the impression that I would come here tonight and that all of the documents were in a form that was acceptable to be signed and that we could simply move on with this. So, again it is just some of my frustration because a lot of this stuff has taken longer than I think we have all anticipated. I am just trying to get this accomplished so that we can get this approved. Morrow: I understand what your frustration is and I understand where you are trying to go with it. Seel: Again I apologize if I am being rude, I don't mean to, it is just 10:00 and it has been a long day and you kind of think you are going to give birth to a child and you have to go home again. Morrow: Point of discussion Mayor, I think basically as a Council we can do one of two things. We have always indicated to our staff and to our people when we approve something what it is we want is we want and in its final format we want obviously final format means that City Attorney Crookston has reviewed everything from a legal standpoint no matter what the document might be. That we are empowering the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest. Only a Council can provide that function. Essentially to get to that goal now we have two choices. One is that we could table this until our next meeting in which case we have these assurances that it has in fact been done. Or the second choice we have is we can empower the Mayor to sign and the clerk to attest upon successful conclusion and of review by City Attorney Crookston. If that occurs at weeks end then fine so be it, if that occurs the 3rd of March so be it. I guess from my perspective is that I want the assurances from City Attorney Crookston on record that he has reviewed and everything is satisfactory before any signature occurs on the part of the Mayor and the City Clerk. I don't want to put the City or two individuals that occupy those positions in the position of going beyond what we are held to by City ordinance and State statute and so on and so forth. So I see it as two potential solutions both of which are acceptable to me. Seel: If I could at least put some input I would Morrow: I think this is a discussion of the Council Rountree: Mr. Mayor, in order for me to I guess concur in the second option that Councilman Morrow I would need some assurances from Shari that in fact the changes made today were minor and not of substance. Then I would throw out a third option that possibly we could take this up in our planning meeting or have we not scheduled that one. Or can that be done? Corrie: No decisions can be made at planning meetings, you need a special meeting. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 43 Rountree: Okay, my question then would be to Shari were the changes you worked out today of minor substance and do you feel your issues and concerns and the City's concerns have been taken care of. Stiles: Councilman Rountree and Mayor and Council I think that what we have ended up with is in substantial compliance with what you have in your packet. There would be some minor changes and Jonathan has spent a lot of time on this and has actually improved a lot of the wording that was repetitive and didn't, the terms that didn't match up. So he has put a lot of work into it. Part of the problem was in some of the reviews we would do the reviews send him a copy then they would review it and send us back a copy that wasn't the same as what we though we had discussed previously. So we worked out the final details of that on the phone today and I believe it is a good document. Rountree: But the changes are not of major substance? Stiles: I don't believe them to be no. Crookston: Excuse me are we talking about only the development agreement? Stiles: Only the development agreement. Seel: I would like to interject too that I think Shari has put a great deal of time and effort in this and I appreciate her getting it back as quickly as she has. So she deserves credit in this too. Tolsma: Mr. Mayor, I believe with Mr. Moore's track record of what the projects he has done in Boise and Meridian and everything in the past and with the minor changes that Shari says was recommended and what the attorney that has previously reviewed the CC&R's and development agreements even though the changes possibly are minor or he hasn't reviewed the final documents I would agree with Walt's second choice that possibly we instruct the Mayor to sign and the City Clerk to attest if the review from the City Attorney on the final document is favorable. Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion is made and seconded, made by Mr. Tolsma, second by Mr. Bentley that the development agreement, non -development agreement and CC&R's be approved, that the Mayor sign and the Clerk to attest on the final approval of the City Attorney's office. Any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 44 Corrie: I might just add Jonathan, there was a change in the development that I wasn't aware of. So just so you and I are still (Inaudible) Mr. Crookston if you will do that for us posthaste. Seel: Thank you very much and again I apologize if I came across a little strong but (inaudible). ITEM #16: TED CUNNINGHAM: REQUEST FOR HOOK UP TO CITY SEWER AT 125 BLUE HERON LANE: Corrie: Is Mr. Cunningham here this evening? Berg: I am not here to represent Mr. Cunningham but I did have a conversation with him this afternoon. He is requesting to table this item, this request until March 4, the reason being is they are doing some test holes out on his property. There might be a possibility that he can put in another drain field or not depending on what Central District Health tells him. So he would like to table this item until March 4. Morrow: So moved Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree to table the request for hook up to City sewer at 125 Blue Heron Lane to March 4, 1997, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #17: DEPARTMENT REPORTS: Corrie: I guess I would like to have Mr. Bentley, can you give us a run down on the, Dave Hanson is here, Council has received the packet which is a proposal that he has made to do the preliminary study on the rec. center on the preschematic work plan. I think a couple of the three people here know about it. To make sure everybody on Council is aware of what this is. If he has any questions they can ask him and then we will go forward. Bentley: Okay, what the recreation committee decided to do, we went through our surveys and sent you all a copy of how they come out. We decided to take a stab at talking to a couple of developers and have them give us their thoughts on the best way to go through with looking at the amenities that we might want in a rec. center and come up with a schematic plan as to how we could obtain a final plan and stuff. Dave Hanson came in and discussed this with us and he wrote up a preproposal and I would like to have him come and give a short synopsis of that he had there. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 45 Hanson: I will try to make this short, my name is Dave Hanson, Jr. 3187 N. 10th Street, Coeur d'Alene. Initially I met with Councilman Bentley and the mayor on February 6 and at that time we discussed a process of how to go about planning a facility like this. Their initial indications by certain professionals was that a process might involve more or less a design competition. My feeling at that time was that a project of this nature, any community based project the planning process is crucial and should involve as many elements in the community as possible, politically and to get the support of the community. So what I did was at the request of the Mayor and Councilman Bentley put together more or less a model to follow, a planning process. So when architectural services or planning services were solicited to do this process you might have an understanding of what you are looking for. I also feel that to assure that you have the most qualified people doing a process like this that interview process is essential. So many times it is easy to take a model done in Nampa and place it in Meridian. Meridian is unique, we have unique problems and we have unique history. I think to overlook opportunities that we have that Nampa does not it wouldn't be beneficial to the community. So what I have done, I don't know if all of you have something before but it is a model to look at. There is a tentative fee proposal to that so what it might cost to do something like this. It again varies with the service and how in depth you want to get with anything. I also believe this should answer your questions, a survey like this should go before the community and answer a couple of questions. One can you afford it and two where would it be and what would it do as any preprogramming should do. You shouldn't have any doubt after you are done with the study of this nature that yes you can do this and be able to proceed with a plan of how to finance this. If that hasn't already been in place through the study. So I guess at this time I would entertain any questions. Corrie: Any questions from Council at this point? Morrow: I think I am short a package here. Corrie: All it is Walt, I put it in your box some time ago, all it is (inaudible) cover letter in a gray package. Each one of you got one like that in your box, see what he is holding there. I might add that Ernie: Mr. Mayor and Councilman, I just add a couple of things to that. The outline that Dave has given you there is a very important process in any good building project. I was just trying to think of a good example, I guess a good example would be the Morrison Center that we did, it has been over 10 years since we did that thing. I think we all forget the Morrison Center had a 18 year history of failure, it took 18 years before that got built. And went through all kind of (inaudible) The problem with the Morrison Center was always a preconceived solution, it was never something that became a consensus of the community. The Morrison Center turned out to be a collaboration between the community, the Morrison Foundation and Boise State University. So it has 3 different owners actually. And so it really had to represent the community, the university and a private foundation all at once. We had 65 people on a building Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 46 committee and 45 user groups that wanted to tell us how to design the building. So believe me it took a planning process to survive that sort of thing. We put a process together and you see kind of a short version of it before you tonight. That process is really the heart and soul of why the Morrison Center is a successful building as it is. Because it does exactly what people expect it to do and everyone agreed to what it could and the community really got behind the idea. For a project like you are talking about here it is really kind of key to get everybody looking the same direction at the same time. The only way to really do that is to go through a process like this. Otherwise any solution you might come up with would be preconceived and quite frankly kind of the chemistry takes place and kind of the goals of the project become community wide goals then quite often those things become targets rather than become consensus. You don't want the building to become a target you want it to represent a consensus of a broad base. People sometimes are kind of worried because they think that designing building by committee but the difference between designing and defining and what this is is defining and not designing it, it is defining it. I think if you all would agree that any time you can concisely state a problem and say it concisely and clearly and everyone can understand it, it is about 80% solved when you do that. That is kind of what the key to that whole thing is and why projects that go through that process are much more successful than ones that don't. That is our pitch for that. Bentley: I have a question for Dave, how firm is that estimate? Hanson: Firm as in for us to do it? Well that is a firm estimate for us to do that. That is what it would take for us to do that process based on the information and experience that Ernie has had and the firms I worked for us to do something like that. Bentley: Is that a high end price or is there chance for reduction? Hanson: There is of course always a chance for reduction and not to exceed fee. Generally you never shoot for the top on things like this you try to cover yourself as a business but then again you need to provide a service to the community, something that you can use. Of course once you get into the planning stage you might realize that your user groups might not be as many as you initially planned. The (Inaudible) might be a little less and the fee might go down a little more. Corrie: Council I would also like to (inaudible) information for you there are 3 other architectural firms that have contacted me that would like to be involved in the preconstruction for the bidding and this type of thing for the feasibility studies. That is Hosford Engineering, Neil (Inaudible) and then Nicole (Inaudible) and Alan Quinteri and I think those are the ones that contact me that would like to be part of the pre - preliminary to give to the Council Morrow: Mr. Mayor, if I might, the proper procedure for something like this is for the City to put out a request for a proposal. We do that essentially for every project and every study. So what ought in fact to be happening is two things. One is that there ought to be Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 47 a request for proposal going out into the architectural and engineering committee with specific things defined as what it is we want that to happen. Then when those requests for proposals come back to us then what the City does is sit down and makes a determination which proposal is best suited for what it is we are trying to find out. Then we budget the money or determine where the money is coming from to pay for it and do that in that manner. At this point this evening I would not be part of the voting for any type of proposal for this have we not gone through that process. That is a process that we strictly adhere to within the City and so it is obvious that Mr. Hanson has submitted what his proposal is but it is a non-competitive proposal. There should be a period of time that all of the rest of the potential folk that do this kind of work have the option to submit a proposal in terms of having a shot at this work. We do this in the sewer stuff all of the time, you see varying prices and varying scopes of work. From those then you define maybe the ideal proposal and you might request yet a back up proposal of the top three based on new information that has been suggested to you. Bentley: Just so you understand the situation with this was he was coming into town to speak to the committees and he asked to speak to the Council tonight. We are aware that it has to be an open competition as he is aware of too. So but it was just a case where he was in town and asked to speak to everyone. Morrow: In the process the public hearing process (inaudible) have to offer to every other architectural form (inaudible) Hanson: (Inaudible) look at the proposal as a model. You are correct this goes out to an RFP but if you don't know what you are proposing you have a hard time defining. What this is to be used is to help you propose something as an architectural service. Morrow: I understand what you are saying Mr. Hanson and the issue is we can request (inaudible) Hanson: That is correct. Corrie: And which I think that is probably what we will do. I wanted to make sure that everybody on Council was brought up to speed as you say what we are doing here. Nothing is being rammed down anybody's throat or anything else and they are quite aware of what is going on. I also wanted to make sure that the other people that we aren't doing that at all. I appreciate what you have done and we will proceed on with what we need to be doing here and get back with you as soon as we find out what is going on. I don't know how, we have your preschematic work plan here so I guess we can ask for others to do the same thing. Ones that I talked to said that is what they wanted to do anyway. Hanson: I think if you are to engage in an interview process we would request that they submit separately and that this start over. This was initially intended to help you write a Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 48 proposal for a service. It was not meant to compare against other people and what they do. Corrie: That is correct and we will honor that. Ernie: Mr. Mayor, I think one other thing, we wanted to make sure that you understood the value of a planning process versus a preconceived like a design competition where we just sit down and come up with a pretty picture and lay it on you and say which pretty picture do you like the best. That happens sometimes and we just thought we would help you a little bit in that regard and give you some background on why this other process is much better (inaudible) that was the intent anyway. Rountree: Mr. Mayor, if I might on this particular subject, I think I would like to step back and maybe five an opinion or guidance on how we ought to get to where we want to get with this RFP. I believe that the advisory council on the community center who has been meeting for a number of months should come together, reach some consensus put together a recommendation and bring that before Council for consideration and then the Council take action on pursuing an RFP per their recommendation as opposed to. I would like to see some continuity with that group you have a lot of people working. And some folks I think are feeling a little frustrated they are not getting anywhere and that has been expressed a little bit in the Parks and Recreation Commission. I think that the advisory committee may want to bring that forth to the Parks and Recreation Commission first and then put together a package and bring it to Council and make a presentation. That would be my suggestion and then we would get into the RFP process. So we don't disenfranchise those people that have been working on it. Corrie: That is right, any further discussion? Thank you Dave and Ernie. Okay Gary Smith, City Engineer. Smith: Mr. Mayor and Council members I just have two items. The first one is the bid results for the cleaning and television inspection of sewer system. That was bid on February 6, 1997. We had three bidders, I think you all had a copy of the bid tabulations. The low bidder was Municipal Service Company of Idaho for a total bid of $49,812.30. These bid prices are the same prices that they bid that we requested for the same service. They have done a good job and provided the service that they contracted to provide. My recommendation and that of John Shawcroft our sewer superintendent would be to award the bid to Municipal Service Company of Idaho in the amount of $49,812.30 for the work that is described on that bid tabulation. Tolsma: Question Mr. Smith, how is it that they are (inaudible) lower than everybody else? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 49 Smith: Well we experienced a similar difference between first and second on the last bid. I am not sure, one of the bidders was having to buy equipment to do the job. I think the high bidder was. (Inaudible) Smith: I think (Inaudible) is out of the area so they would have to have mobilization cost added to that also. Morrow: Was not one of them leasing equipment too Gary? Smith: I don't know, I understood that I think Alliance was purchasing some equipment or perhaps they were leasing it I don't know. I don't believe they had the equipment on hand, municipal service does have their own equipment. Tolsma: You are comfortable with Municipal Service though? Smith: Yes, they have done an excellent job, they have good equipment, good results. Morrow: The other thing Ron is they have done our work for the last two years and so they are really familiar with what the issues are and how to do it. Tolsma: (Inaudible) Morrow: If there is no problem Mr. Mayor I would move that we accept the bid for the sewer line camera and cleaning work by Municipal Services of Idaho in the amount of $49,812.30 and authorize the Mayor to sign and the City Clerk to attest the award of contract. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Rountree to have Municipal Service Company of Idaho clean and television inspect the sewer system in the amount of $49,812.30, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? ►VAIs] 19IM0KOY1VV121OW-Al 1\Y.7 Smith: Thank you Mr. Mayor, I will get that notice of award to you and then subsequently there will be a contract and notice to proceed. The second item I have is the license agreement from Nampa and Meridian Irrigation District for the City of Meridian to discharge bypass water from Well No. 17 into Nine Mile Drain. Well No. 17 is located in one of the first lots in off of Locust Grove in Los Alamitos Subdivision. The well pump and pump house is under construction right now. I believe this drain line has been constructed. The first part of the license agreement is pretty much canned material that Nampa Meridian Irrigation District uses regularly. The end of the Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 50 agreement, exhibit C and exhibit D are specific to this project. Basically this drain line is used for flushing our well or will be used for flushing of the well. We are subject to the flows that are existing in Nine Mile Drain and Nampa and Meridian Irrigation District would control this to some extent if they have a water volume in the Nine Mile Drain to which our well bypass water would cause them problems then we have to contact them ahead of this flush if and when we have a flush. So I would request Council approval of the license agreement unless anybody has a problem with it as it is written. (Inaudible) when I submitted it to Will I guess he submitted a copy to Wayne. Berg: He should have it in his packet. Crookston: I have the agreement, I just haven't looked at it. Morrow: Mr. Mayor, that being the case I would move that we authorize the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest the license agreement between the City of Meridian for City well No. 17 bypass discharge into Nampa Meridian Irrigation District system, subject to review and approval by City Attorney Crookston. Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Bentley to approve the City well No. 17 bypass discharge for the Mayor to sign and the City Clerk to attest upon the final approval of the City Attorney, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea (Inaudible) Smith: Well I guess, Councilman Morrow and myself and Bruce Stuart met with Dennis Griffen who manages the Vocational Education Campus in Nampa. They have agreed to vacate the premises by July 1St, end of June. We will be moving the Water Department down there and some accommodations will be made with the BSU powerline school that they have down there whereby they will maintain a classroom and until such time as their West Campus is built between here and Nampa. I believe that it will be incorporated into that campus. So the building is an excellent facility. I think we are very fortunate to get that back in our ownership. It will be a good facility for the water department. Very well constructed, very well maintained. We are all looking forward to the move. Rountree: Any renovations eminent, you can walk into it pretty much as it is and take it over? Smith: Right Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 51 Morrow: I think that the final issue is that from our standpoint we have got every thing that Mayor and you guys desired of us to do. We have the deal structured and put together where we left Dennis is that we were highly supportive of the west campus and that we wanted to be involved. We had plenty of room at that facility for the next few years for the power training program. So we would have Amanda Horden and Wayne Crookston working out this stuff. What I suggested was that there had to be a monetary term to make the contract or whatever they are going to work about doable that probably a dollar a year would be a satisfactory amount. So don't think there are very many issues, I think it is up to us to get the legal stuff done and then look forward to moving to July 1St. It has been a major (inaudible) Dennis Griffen's part and Tom McGregor's part to make sure that this is happening. I think we need to proceed posthaste to get that done. It would probably be in our benefit to make sure that Wayne contacts Amanda and gets it put together as soon as possible. If they need something like that. Bentley: Where are you at with the engineering on Tully do we need to give you any more (inaudible) Smith: I don't think so, they are proceeding. Bentley: Well you spoke before you needed some, you were talking about some changes on the plans or we needed to finalize them up or something or are we already past that? Smith: I think we have done that, I think at the last Council meeting asked for that work and I got that change in the pathway and the next day had that information back to the consulting engineer and he is moving forward. Does anyone else have any questions of me? Corrie: Shari? Stiles: Nothing sir Corrie: Chief? Gordon: I put copies of the communication study in all of the Councilmen's boxes. Did everybody get a chance to look at those, any comments or suggestions? Rountree: I would suggest some more anecdotal situations to say why or what we have got isn't working and specific instances where it didn't work and caused either poor communications with or citizenry or embarrassment on the part of the City or inadequate response to a situation, those kinds of things. If you could do that it would be, it was a good study but it was almost academic. It just, site 5 or 6 or 10 examples of why the communication system, where the communication system we have has Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 52 failed and the result of that failure. I think it would just put the final touches on that thing. Gordon: I will get those for you. Corrie: I think we have a couple that come from the EMS that I gave you and one of them was pretty good for (inaudible). Gordon: That was a culmination of all of the problems came to a head Christmas Eve when the entire system melted down. Everybody was without service and the Ada County EMS (End of Tape) There was a meeting with the Commissioners about five years ago and I voiced those concerns at that time. And it finally happened and exactly what happened is what I knew was going to happen. That problem has still not been alleviated. I have still not been contacted by anybody from the Sheriff's office or from that group explaining what actually took place and why nothing worked in Meridian when it do go down. But I can get together that stuff. Rountree: I guess my next question it is an action on the part of the City to the County Commissioners asking them what they are going to do about this. Are they going to allow funding to come to the City of Meridian to take care of the problem is that where we want to go with this issue? Gordon: Yes sir, the County Commissioners have called and requested a meeting wanting to know, with the Sheriff present and his staff why we are pursuing or even looking at a dispatch center. Rountree: So they are still up in the clouds? Gordon: They know why, but they want to I guess ask the same question you have, why do you think there is problem here. Rountree: When is that meeting scheduled or is it yet to be scheduled? Gordon: I think they set a date of March 6 if I am not mistaken. • - •iL1I17�iia1C�R� Rountree: With the County Commissioners? Gordon: Yes sir and the sheriff and me and I guess anybody that wants to go. Rountree: If you put a reminder In my box it would be beneficial. Thank you :e =C7iii�iFiill��ifT1 Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 53 Corrie: Counselor, anything? Crookston: I have nothing. Corrie: Mr. Morrow? Morrow: A couple of things, last time and we did sign the letter tonight. Last time we had a discussion or I threw out the proposal to be thought about it and come to a resolution tonight about maybe taking some of the rebate money that we got on the work comp think and spend $25 or $30 to each employee for a night out or whatever. So it was two fold we were going to send them a letter signed by all of us saying (inaudible) accomplishing (inaudible). I guess what I would like to know tonight is does the Council feel that the $25 or $30 is a worthy rebate and should we in fact do that (inaudible) for a job well done. Bentley: I believe Mr. Mayor, you were supposed to check and see if it was okay, the legality of it. Crookston: I have not checked the legality of it. What I have done is some discussion with Will and Janice. The problem that I see is that dollar amount is generally used for payment of premium and it goes back. They send you a letter saying that if you want to have this money you can have it you can cash the check or you can have it reapplied to your premium. The question that arose in my mind is whether or not it was more spending money it is not really a rebate so much as it is a lessening the cost of the workman's comp. Morrow: You get the rebated based on your loss experience so the rebate is different for each individual based on the dividend and based on the (inaudible) you have the option in the tax return to apply your tax return to next year's tax liability. (Inaudible) and have it off set your next year's premiums. When it runs out (inaudible) to do with as you please so it is discretionary money to do with as you please. Crookston: I think that is very true, my only question was whether or not it is appropriate to view it as a rebate like having money that you won in the lottery or something or whether or not you viewed it as what it is. It is a use of an award that could be used to lower the premium cost of your workman's comp. Morrow: No, it just off sets this year's premium it doesn't lower the cost any. The premium is based on your salaries that you pay. It doesn't have any impact on what the premium might be. Just a prepayment whatever (inaudible). Crookston: But if you use it you don't get credit for it in your next year's premiums. Morrow: Well you don't know, all you are doing now is that you are taking (inaudible) then it goes in and comes back and it says (inaudible) $45,000 and if you have $26,000 Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 54 in rebate that you are going to reinvest the new amount you owe is $19,000. You still own them $45,000. All you have done is and we have already gotten the check, that is not an avenue that is open to us anyway. Crookston: You can send the check back to the Department of Labor. I have done that in private practice I paid work comp and Rountree: It just prepays. Morrow: We still have the check was the check was deposited? Berg: I think the check was deposited in our checking account because we had already paid the premium. But on the same basis that premium is based on a work experience and we still have to pay upfront a premium. Because we were more efficient we didn't have to pay as much and they rebated it back. I did talk to Jo our auditor and she could not tell me that she remembers that an instance that this has happened. Usually it is always just refunded back and pay for the premium but she was going to check and see if there was any reason why we could not do that. She couldn't see any right now, she didn't have any clients that did that but she was going to check it out, she has not got back to me today. Morrow: As a point of clarification here, sound fiscal policy would be than when you get a rebate check rather than redeposit it with Work Comp and little or no interest that you put it in the highest interest bearing instrument that you can with whatever time period you can before the next premium becomes due and payable. That way you earn interest income on it as opposed to leaving it in an account as to offset against a bill that might be 3 months down the road. Crookston: That is very true. Rountree: And likewise investing in the employees it is kind of interest bearing as well. agree with the concept, I think it would be good to get the comment back from the auditor. The only clarification I would want to make is by virtue of the way we are organized, we are part of that group but I would want it understood that at least this Council person doesn't want any part of the rebate. I believe we are still covered by some of the insurance that is being rebated, just a matter of fact. Morrow: I guess I didn't visualize us being involved to begin with. Crookston: I think it would be appropriate to see what Jo has to say about it. I don't think that there is a legal problem I think it is just a matter of how the Mayor and Council decide to use the funds. Just like setting a budget, you decide on how it is going to be spent. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 55 Rountree: Well they are uncognitized funds at this point it would have to supplemental to spend them anyway. Crookston: That is true Rountree: (Inaudible) Corrie: Then the consensus is to find out from Jo what is going on. Okay Morrow: The next issue was I had a note about park reservations for shelters, do we want to increase the fee, limitations on the number of people, parking problem? We need to do something about this right away so that by March 1 st when those reservations and stuff start coming in that we have got that policy in place. My point in bringing it up tonight is that I want you guys to be thinking about what we want to do there so that at our strategic planning meeting next Tuesday we can come to a conclusion and give our staff the guidance they need so they can put the policy in place. Then on our March 4t" meeting we can do it and adjust the rates (inaudible) will in fact be accurate. The last thing is in preparation for the meeting on the 25t", the strategic planning meeting. I am just going to go through our agenda from last meeting so that everybody can make sure that they have their stuff done that they were supposed to have done. Transportation study we have taken care of we took care of that at our last Council meeting. We have adopted that and it has been forwarded onto ACHD. Clean up Ordinance #744, that was the ordinance that Will brought to our attention where we were asking too much of some positions. That was supposed to have been ready for tonight's council meeting. It wasn't on the agenda so we will be asking the question at our next meeting where that is. Glenn and Charlie took care of the traffic commission rework. They have put in our box a rough draft so that we can review that. It is a job well done, it was done on time. (Inaudible) The next issue was the ethics in government issues. A proposal was due the 14t", I didn't see that tonight so that will have to be ready for next week. Board commission committee issues, that ordinance was due the 14t", it hasn't been in my box as of yet. The P & Z ordinance, that was assigned to Wayne Crookston, you are probably working on that I suppose aren't you? Crookston: Which P & Z ordinance are you talking about, the commissioners? That is all part of the boards, commissions and committees isn't it? Rountree: That is what we concluded last time. Morrow: Well we have item 6 here P & Z ordinance designated to Wayne C Rountree: As I recall he was going to go through the ordinance book and highlight those ordinances that are needing changing or that we can get rid of. The whole works Crookston: It is what I call the green book Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 56 Morrow: We may need to review the tape to make better notes there. The joint building and P & Z we have to have done by the 25th on white paper. We have met a preliminary meeting with Jo Bolen. We are now scheduling a meeting with Attorney Crookston to put that in rough draft form. Then parking lot, Glenn was going to look into that issue. Bentley: Still waiting for Ms. Nanni to get back to me. Morrow: And then site for public works and building, Gary is doing a schematic on the other space over here. I think that is either done or about to be done. (Inaudible) cost estimate based on that schematic. And so, we have talked about the sewer plant issue so that covers it that will be the issues that we will talk about at the planning meeting on the 25tH Bentley: We also decided that we were going to dedicate the meeting to working on space problems, building problems. Well with all of that on there how are we going to do that? Morrow: Well we are supposed to have the paperwork for this other stuff, so (inaudible) we can look at those issues very quickly. It is not as though we are going to be debating the (inaudible) As you recall we are supposed to have the trial stuff there such as you have done (inaudible). I do have a note here that says (inaudible) meeting of the 25th for space issues. Bentley: On your space issues has there been any though given to, I can't remember what all he was looking at but are we looking at space issues that the police department is going to need? Morrow: I think we are looking at space issues for the City in general (inaudible). Corrie: Refresh my memory, white papers, what is that? Morrow: White paper is a trial ordinance or trial (inaudible) for example on the traffic commission (inaudible). Corrie: You mentioned something about the planning and zoning ordinance and Wayne was going to do it and then you said something about a white paper. Morrow: Draft Corrie: What are we drafting? Morrow: Are you asking specifically? Corrie: Specifically what are you drafting that is what I meant. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 57 Morrow: We are drafting the traffic safety ordinance, rough draft. We are drafting the ethics rough draft ordinance. We are doing the boards, commissions and committees rough draft ordinance. (Inaudible) Corrie: (Inaudible) Charlie? Rountree: These are more of along the lines of questions. Wayne, I really do need something to get to St. Luke's in terms of a lease. They are a little ancy. I don't know, everybody probably already knows this but Marshall Baker is no longer with St. Luke's, Christopher Brown is the new executive. You probably already knew this as well, Earthtech got the engineering agreement with ACHD to do the couplet study. That was formally Bell Walker. They would like to as part of the agreement, there are two meetings scheduled with the City of Meridian. They would like to schedule a meeting somewhere around May 20, somewhere around June 10. 1 suggested when I talked to Gary Funkhauser that maybe they consider an early session with us before our May 20th meeting similar to what we had tonight. But it would be just like a half hour presentation to discuss the alternatives that they had developed at that point. Then they want to have in June a workshop with the City Council related to where they have gotten with alternative analysis and what they are probably looking at in terms of recommendations. Their schedule shows that around June 10th. So, we could defer that again until a regular Council but there may be more questions and answers at that point in time. We might want a special day set aside to meet with them. I told them I would get your thoughts on that tonight and then they would probably make a run at us to try and confirm those. Bentley: I have one thing to add since Charlie mentioned that couplet that brings to mind, I think we need to, and maybe this has been planned already. While we are doing a couplet study maybe take a look at what we want the main drive through town to look like as far as aesthetics and beautification and preserving. I don't know, I don't think the comp plan addresses it. But with a couplet study that might be something we want t tie together. Morrow: I guess what the question would be is when you see the couplet study and what the highway requirements are essentially you are (inaudible) either have to do an LID (inaudible) or some other mechanism. I think the answer to the question is that we need to take a look at something like that we need to see what the highway requirements are first in terms of space. The answer Charlie (inaudible) get it done and get it moving. Rountree: So anyone not willing to meet say the 10th of June on an evening, probably not too late. I will get back to them and have them firm up some dates and have them submit them to the City and then we can confirm the dates with them and put then on our calendar, if that is all right. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 58 Berg: Just a point of interest is that first week of June is AIC conference, so if you are planning on going to that don't book anything. Rountree: They would not be wanting to meet with us until the second week, possibly the third week in June. (Inaudible) week of the 10th is when they have it in their critical path to meet with the City the second time. As far as your comment about park fees, I have given Gary a spreadsheet that the City of Boise was advertising for rate increases and it is probably as good a place as any to start. Then I had a question for Wayne, what was the outcome with the discussion with Mr. Thierhause's attorney today related to the pocket park property and surrounding property? Crookston: I did not talk to the attorney I called Rick Thierhause on Thursday and they said he was in the hospital and would not be back until today. And so I didn't talk to him until today to find out who the attorney was and I now know who the attorney is that, it is Winston Churchill and I asked if he had any problem with me calling him and he said no go ahead and call him. Rountree: That is all I have. Corrie: I have a couple of things, in you had the articles, and (inaudible) Ada Planning Association. What this is primarily is that the changing that the association can also have not only Ada County involved with APA but also Canyon County. There have been quite a few meetings that have been going on that Canyon County would like to join forces with the Canyon County Commissioners and Mayors and City Council and that for the regional and multi -county ventures. So what they have to do is change the constitution and articles on it to allow them to act outside of Ada County, specifically talking to Ada County. So Council would need to be in agreement that they have no problem with that, that we could vote either yea or nay depending on the Council's feeling on that whether they want them to enter into that cooperative agreement for regional planning. That is why I brought it to your attention and if anybody has any problems with it we need to know about it. Morrow: Does, okay, by approval of this we are authorizing APA to carry on conversations with Canyon County or Elmore County (inaudible) by approving this we are not authorizing them to enter into binding agreements and so on and so forth are we not? Corrie: (Inaudible) Morrow: (Inaudible) situation where this is simply authorization to carry on conversations with non-binding discussions. If there were any proposals that came out of it then it would go back to the various Council's and county commissioners and so on and so forth for them to say the City supports this or doesn't support that. Then the board at that point in time after would (inaudible) Council or Commissioners would want to see happen is that correct? Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 59 Corrie: That is right, it is the authority to enter into cooperative agreements. They have the authority that once they talk about it then if it is agreeable with the different cities representatives through their board agree you say yes we agree that you should have Canyon County be part of this agreement with transportation, the two votes would be yea. But they have to have all of the approvals of cities to do this. In other words if you agree to that then you would have to give me the authority to sign for the City of Meridian to change the ordinance. Bentley: Mr. Mayor, one thing that was brought up at the meeting was that these other Cities would not be voting on issues that didn't apply to them. (Inaudible) they would not be voting on something that affects Meridian and Boise. Corrie: It is just articles to talk. Rountree: I assume this like any other constitutional amendment process or articles process that they want to open it up to amendment then I would suggest that we open it all up to amendment and then a minimum (Inaudible) Meridian, Eagle and Kuna all three increase their voting power by one to at least have those three cities in rural Ada County if you will as a block if they wanted to vote together would at least have a snowball's chance to compete with the voting power of the City of Boise. It is stacked for the City of Boise. There is no point in us even voting. Morrow: And I agree with that. Corrie: We have had some lunches where we addressed those very things that we thought we needed to have meetings. (Inaudible) if Star comes in there would be a block of 8 votes which takes care of eight on the other side. We had discussed that but as far as us getting an extra vote. Rountree: I would suggest that we at least run that up the flag pole. All they can do is vote us down. If we don't say it then we submit. We have grown substantially since this thing was first drafted and so has the City of Eagle. Our problems though maybe not as many are just as big as the City of Boise in terms of abilities to finance and take care of them. I don't see why we should be second to the City of Boise. I think they ought to know that and if they choose not to let us increase our voting power so be it. But if we don't ask we are not going to get it. It is kind of like asking for an increase in your allowance I suppose. Morrow: I am in agreement with that position and as support to that is that we have moved a long ways forward in terms of size of City and so on and so forth. And yet in terms of the areas that I represent the City in which is primarily transportation, ACHD the issues very candidly are to some degree we get the bones that are left over and we always have to fight like heck to make our point. One of the major problems that I am learning with regional entities is that if they are set up in the same manner that ACHD Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 60 was set up in then it is always stacked against those who have the least amount of voting power. Conversely part of the issue is that the big folk use the regional entity to hide behind. I would suggest to you as a case in point the mall area. If the City of Boise was responsible for highways and had to fund that mess over there I doubt you would see such over zoning of the area. So it is a two edged deal. And I think in terms of these regional entities we want to be very careful going into them to make sure that the point that Charlie raises is that we have got enough representation so that when you have a group of folk that see things one way that you can have a chance of winning your point. Because now if it is as western Ada County issue we don't have a chance of winning the point if it is not in the City of Boise's best interest. As all of us know that from time to time Boise City's best interest is throw the boys a bone and (inaudible) lay down and be quiet. And so maybe now is the time in dealing with these issues and push those points and serve notice that we think there are some inequities there and maybe start to reverse the trend a little. Corrie: Of course for this particular (inaudible) articles of the constitution there are only 13 votes, Boise has one vote, Meridian has one vote, Kuna has one vote, etc. In the Council itself we have to (inaudible) this is executive that the main voting has to (inaudible) Rountree: I understand that and they can say that is not acceptable but at least they understand our position. And they may say yes and great Tolsma: (Inaudible) Rountree: It seemed odd to me that in this day and age that the representation was that way and if they want to get us in a regional concept I think we ought to be up to snuff with everybody else. Corrie: You certainly have an in road to do that since I am on the Executive Council. Rountree: I think you can express that opinion at least for me I would hope you would and if they don't like it I don't have a problem with what they are proposing to do. Morrow: You know what we can do is send back our copy with those changes made and just let it slide right on by. Corrie: I bet you somebody would catch it. So is the consensus or I need a vote that the Council would approve the agreements with regional planning with Ada Planning Association. Glenn and I will certainly, I will bring it up to the board (inaudible) Bentley: I will make the motion. Morrow: Second Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 61 Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Bentley, second by Mr. Morrow to accept the amended (inaudible) Ada Planning Association, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Corrie: ACHD, Jerry Nyman wants to have a joint meeting again with us and the ACHD Commissioners. Will and I looked at, we have Friday the 28th open, March 7th and March 14th is on Friday. Does anybody have any preferences? Rountree: As long as they are in the afternoon, I don't have a problem. Corrie: So we will (inaudible) Rountree: Just something after noon. Morrow: From my perspective any one of those three days is fine and have it at our shop because we have (inaudible) Corrie: To run you up to date on the Planning and Zoning Commission I have five eligible people, five are associated with the building industry. Morrow: I think there is another one that Jim is interviewing also that is from Cherry Lane Village, Art Finel. Corrie: I was not aware of that. Morrow: He is a retired banker. Corrie: I know who Art is, he is a real estate man. Morrow: (inaudible) Corrie: I wasn't even aware that he was even, he didn't tell me that. I will see if we can't get this posthaste and find out if that being the case so that you know where we are. That is all I have, Will? Berg: I have a couple items on the agenda which is a rarity. One was the Gibbons, Scott and Dean submitted agreements for the audits for the 1995 fiscal year and the 1996 fiscal year, they are separate audits. I made copies of that in your packet, a little memo plus a letter of them explaining a few situations. These are initially under the $5000 bidding law I guess that was passed by the legislature two years ago. So I ask I guess for the approval of these agreements unless you have some questions with them. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 62 Morrow: I don't have any questions. Corrie: I guess my question, does that include the two audits as under $4500 or is that (inaudible) Berg: $4500 for each audit, and that was the same price it was in 1994 audit. The $2000 if we have a grant that we have to deal with and to be quite honest I don't know if we did in 1995. Corrie: You mean government grants? Berg: Yes if they have to deal with some more research with any grant money that we received. Corrie: I think there was one in 1995. Berg: Like I said I am not positive on that. Of course we will have one for the 1997 fiscal year because we did, I don't believe we had anything for the 1996 fiscal year. Corrie: Council? Morrow: Mr. Mayor, I would move that we approve the audit proposal by Gibbons, Scott and Dean in the amount of $4500 and that if there is (inaudible) to authorize the additional $2000 additional expenditure (inaudible) authorize the Mayor to sign and the Clerk to attest (inaudible). Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow second by Mr. Bentley to accept the contract for audit of year 95/95 and stipulation of prices, any further discussion? All those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea Berg: I just wanted a clarification, there are two years of audits, fiscal year 1995 and fiscal year 1996 and those are both (inaudible) Corrie: I guess my question is I thought we did that every year. Personally I like to see it done every year not every two years down the line. I am just asking, was that previous. Morrow: It is every year as far as I know. Berg: it is done every year (inaudible) did you read the cover letter that (inaudible). The second thing that I have is the minutes of the special meetings that we have with the Ada County Commissioners. They are minutes, they had their minutes typed and I got Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 63 copies of the tapes that they took. I just formality need to approval of those minutes that you had copies of and we will put them in our minutes book. I will have a fourth one when she finishes that and I can put that on the agenda. Morrow: That is because it was an advertised meeting of record that we attended then these minutes would serve for Berg: Yes it is a joint meeting and we will just have a our signature page that says that the Mayor signed it and (inaudible). Morrow: I would move that we adopt the meetings of the Ada County Commissioners joint meeting with the City of Meridian on December 16, Tuesday, January 14, 1997 at 1:30 P.M., and Tuesday, January 28, 1997 at 11:00 a.m. Rountree: Second Corrie: Motion made and seconded to accept the minutes of the Board of Ada County Commissioners for the three dates, all those in favor? Opposed? OTA [Q 9IM01KOYI1C V121DWWAII111110M. Berg: And I am sorry, one other time that I had. I put in your box late this afternoon dealing with a request for a release of a non -development agreement for Summerfield Subdivision No. 3 phase 2. 1 made copies of the document. Before they can start construction they need release of this development agreement. They are in a one year time frame for approval of their construction drawings. Morrow: All that takes is a simple motion (inaudible) release of the non -development agreement does it not? Berg: Yes it does. Morrow: So moved Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion made by Mr. Morrow, second by Mr. Bentley to remove the non - development agreement with Summerfield Subdivision No. 3 phase 2, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea ITEM #18: EXECUTIVE SESSION: Corrie: I would like a motion to go into executive session. Meridian City Council February 18, 1997 Page 64 Morrow: So moved Bentley: Second Corrie: Motion made and seconded to go into executive session, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea EXECUTIVE SESSION Corrie: We just came out of executive session. The time is twenty minutes to one, different discussions on personnel. I will entertain a motion to adjourn. Rountree: So moved Morrow: Second Corrie: Motion made and seconded to adjourn, all those in favor? Opposed? MOTION CARRIED: All Yea MEETING ADJOURNED AT 12:42 A.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) /_lWW00]TLA 2191 ROBERT D. CORRIE, MAYOR ATTEST: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK