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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJuly 15, 2003 City CouncilMeddian City Counal July 15, 2003 Page 28 of 46 McCandless: Second. Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea. Corrie: Okay. All ayes. Motion for request for preliminary plat approval is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Corrie: Item No. 16. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move that we approve VAR 03-013, the request for a variance to Meridian City Code 12-4-5, requiring blocks to be not less than 400 feet and not more than 1,000 feet in length for Birchstone Creek Subdivision by Centennial Development, LLC, northwest corner of West Ustick Road and North Black Cat Road, to incorporate staff, Planning and Zoning, City Council, and applicant comments, notes, and to draw up Findings of Facts and Conclusions of Law and Decision and Order showing approval. McCandless: Second Corrie: All right. Motion has been made and seconded. Any further discussion? Hearing none, roll-call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll-Call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea. Corrie: Okay. All ayes. The request for a variance is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 18: Public Hearing: PP 03-007 Request for Preliminary Plat approval of 36 building lots and 7 other lots on 11.65 acres in an R-4 zone for Clearbrook Estates Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC -west of North Meridian Road and south of West Ustick Road: Item 19: Public Hearing: VAR 03-012 Request for a Variance to block length requirements for a block on the south side of Clearbrook Street for Clearbrook Estates Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC -west of North Meridian Road and south of West Ustick Road: Meridian City Counal July 15, 2003 Page 29 of 48 Corrie: We have done Item 17, so we will move on to Item 18 and Item 19. These are Public Hearings. No. 18 is a request for preliminary plat approval of 36 building lots and seven other lots on 11.65 acres in an R-4 zone for Clearbrook Estates Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC, west of North Meridian Road and south of West Ustick Road. And, then, we also have a request for a variance to block length requirement for a block on the south side of the Clearbrook Street for Clearbrook Estates Subdivision by the R.K. Development, LLC. So, without any objections from the Council, I will open the Public Hearing on Item 18 and 19 and hear testimony on both. At this time I would like to have the staff comments first. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this is an in-fill development on a very long, very narrow property that has one stub street currently to it, although it shows up as yellow on this map, it is -- it shows up as white on yours, it just looks yellow from here. Sorry. Maybe your eyes are better than mine. Pardon me. To the south of the property is a large creek and that this drawing actually shows the flood plain for that creek. I wish I knew what the name was. Sorry. The discussion at Planning -- this does come forward from Planning and Zoning Commission with a recommendation for approval. There was one letter that was presented in opposition to the project. The letter is a general letter, concern about the rate of development in the Meridian area and just the general growth and development, it did not offer particular criticisms about this proposed preliminary plat. The issues that were largely discussed at the Planning and Zoning concerned whether or not they would put in another landscape island within the project. Planning and Zoning Commission decided not to require that and, really, the substantive issue regarded the storm water retention ponds for the property. There are three of them proposed, one, two, three and four, and they do border on the south -- it's on the -- this is the South Slough along here. The concern of staff was that these are proposed as lined ponds, so there will likely be standing water in them and that, therefore, they do not really serve an open space function. So, they did go back and kind of recalculate those areas, only calculating the usable area around the ponds. So, basically, the -- kind of the perimeter of the pond is all that was -- or the perimeter of the lot that has the ponds on them is all that was calculated in the five percent open space. The actual area at the -- kind of the floor of the basin was not counted in the five percent, but they do meet that five percent requirement. Those, as I mentioned, were the primary issues with Planning and Zoning Commission. We will answer any questions -- there was a presentation on what these would look like and we do have those photos that were presented at the Planning and Zoning Commission on how these lined ponds do appear in the subdivision. Most of them, as I understand, are having to be redone, because they are -- they are a challenge for everyone as far as getting them to look attractive and, yet, still meeting everybody's requirements as far as separation. And with that I will stand for questions. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor'? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 30 of 46 De Weerd: So, Anna, you said that if you used the perimeter areas where they wouldn't have water, that constituted the five percent open space, but don't we have a clarification that it has to be usable? What's usable about a perimeter for open space? Powell: I believe that's a valid concern, Councilwoman de Weerd, and I'm not sure that when they -- I was not present at the Planning and Zoning Commission on this, so I don't know all of the testimony that took place. I think that is a valid concern, if you're just talking about the pathways that go between -- that those also provide pathways to the slough and there is quite a bit of open space down here provided a part of the subdivision that's perhaps not showing up well on this drawing, but they have provided a pathway along the slough and, then, they counted connections from here and I believe on each side where there was not -- where there was not a pond and we do count connections to a pathway system as part of a usable open space. De Weerd: I guess my other question is you said it was a lined storage drainage pond and there have been problems with these kinds of facilities in the past. What kind of problems? Just mosquito breeding area or -- Powell: Here is -yes. That and as you see them, they are -- there is standing water in them. This is one that is not lined, so this is one where the water is able to drain and -- but the lined ones are similar in appearance to these ones. There are -- it does provide grounds for mosquito, beetle larva. Here is another one. As I understand it, this one has been reworked, and this one was being reworked also. De Weerd: Thank you. Corrie: Any other questions of staff'? Okay. Hearing none, is the representative or applicant here this evening? Cook: Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council. Corrie: Raise your right hand. Is the testimony you're about to give to the Council the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Cook: It is Corrie: Okay. Name and address, please. Cook: My name is Richard Cook, I'm with Briggs Engineering, here tonight representing the applicant. Address is 1800 West Overland Road in Boise. Where to begin. It seems like the issue that first popped up is the retention ponds, so I will address that first. The retention ponds are wet ponds and they will be lined with a natural material called bentonite that solidifies when it gets wet and that retains the water or keeps the water from seeping out in a natural drainage fashion. The reason for that is because the Department of Environmental Quality requires us to maintain athree-foot separation between ground water and our drainage and with high ground water in areas such as Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 31 of 46 this, that makes it impossible to do. So, they require you to use a wet pond configuration. Now, what we will be doing in this particular situation is that the South Slough that is controlled by Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District, we will be submitting an application taking pre-development flows and running these off into the slough for drainage and the other thing is that the photographs that were shown of some of the earlier wet ponds I think is not a fair representation of what we are proposing here. If you're looking at this detail, you can see that we have quite a bit of landscape. We have the micropaths that go along between the street -- Indian Rock Street and the proposed greenbelt along the slough. Plus, we will be using wetland grasses and other trees that will be compatible with this kind of wet pond usage. The open space that we have not only includes the micropaths, but it also includes the greenbelt, which is a 25 foot wide greenbelt area between the rear of the lots along the south side and the top of bank of the South Slough and it will have a ten foot wide paved pathway, plus landscaping, although it will be somewhat minimal, you will have some shrubs, you will have grass along -- all along the greenbelt area. So that totals up to about nine percent as far as open space is concerned. The other issue that was brought up was the -- was the street and we did discuss this during the P&Z Commission hearing and it was the consensus of the commissioners, as well as myself, that putting an island in that street anywhere along here would really not serve any real useful purpose. I find that those types of islands, when you have them in the middle of a street somewhere, say, for instance, right in here, it can create problems for the homes that are on the opposite -- opposite side of the island itself for getting in and out of their driveways and a lot of times it creates problems with people backing into them or trying to go around the island on the wrong side of the street to make ingress and egress out of this development easier for them. I believe that if push comes to shove, we can put a stop sign in here right at the intersection of Indian Rock Street and Northwest 3rd Avenue, if that become a real issue. And that's something I haven't talked with the highway district about, but I think that would be one method of slowing the traffic down a little bit. We believe that the development that we are proposing here is very compatible with the existing developments both to the north and south of our proposed development and we think that what we have come up with here is something that's going to fit in well with the neighborhood. And with that I will conclude my remarks and stand for any questions you have. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: What kind of slopes do you have in your drainage area, the slopes from where you say you have connecting pathways down to where you're catching your -- Cook: I am not sure. I believe it's a three to one -- three-to-one slope. De Weerd: And how are you maintaining that? You will have agrass -- are you using grass? Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 32 of 46 Cook: We are using wetland grasses and trees and shrubs that are compatible with wetland type environments. De Weerd: Now, have you considered shifting that drainage area to be directly across from that street, so you could bulb it out a little bit even there, if you did a little bit of shift? That's a real straight shot and I have seen what people do on straight shots. Stop signs don't seem to slow anyone down. Cook: Well, they are supposed to stop for them. De Weerd: Well, supposedly. But a bulb type of -- you know, I know they talked about a traffic circle or something, but -- and I appreciate what you said about people backing out and that kind of thing and that is a problem, but if you moved that open space to where it connects with that road, you could have some kind of a knob or something that could be enough of a deterrent -- I know we had one kind of on a street that I lived on and that certainly slows traffic down, they have to, just a suggestion. But I am concerned and I do know you have a high water table there, but those lined drainages -- I think they had it over there in Coral Creek and it was -- there is an infestation of mosquitoes. It was a really bad deal. And I don't know what the answer is. I do understand the lining you're required, because of the high water table, but are there any other option to how you can do your drainage? Cook: Mr. Mayor and Commissioner de Weerd -- I mean Council Person de Weerd, we have looked at it and we discussed it with staff and during the Commission hearing both of us agreed that if we had the answer to that particular problem we would be very wealthy men,. because we just can't seem to come up with any other viable solution at this point. We are trying to comply with DEQ requirements and still handle the storm water drainage at the same time and they kind of put us between a rock and a hard spot, if you will, because we just can't seem to make it happen. The best that we can do is take the majority of the runoff and drain it off into the South Slough, which will really reduce the amount of water being retained in these particular wet ponds and I'm trying to do our best to provide sufficient landscaping and wetland grasses in there to help -- again, help absorb more of the water that will be found in those ponds. De Weerd: What are you chances to getting permission to drain into the South Slough? Cook: Very good for pre-development flow, yes. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: The Central District Health in their -- in their follow up, they -- Item number ten, runoff is not to create a mosquito breeding problem and I feel that what -- these storm drains we are putting in like this -- and I understand the developer is caught between a rock and a hard place -- that's all they are is a mosquito breeding deal. I don't know Meridian City CounGl July 15, 2003 Page 33 of 46 what the -- I don't know what the problem is. I know that's high water out there and it will help if we can dump some of it into the drain, but we are still going to have standing water out there right at the mosquito breeding time and it does really cause a problem and I don't know how you solve it, but it's something that we need to solve and the ones with the pictures that we had here of those things were very disturbing to me, it's very embarrassing as a councilman to approve and let something like that through and be out in subdivisions. This is a problem that's got to be taken care of and it's not just a developer's problem, it's a city problem, and I don't know what the answer is, other than the fact that we need to quit creating mosquito breeding areas, if at all possible. Cook: Mr. Mayor, Commissioner Bird -- Bird: We would all be rich if we could -- if we could solve the problem. Cook: Absolutely. Yes, sir. It was a very easy thing to take care of storm water prior to DEQ coming up with their new regulations, you know, and you can -- you can construct a drainage pond that will filter out the large majority of your impurities and what have you that end up in the groundwater, but with the federal regulations being what they are now, if they get, even you know, a slight increase of impurities in the water that end up in the river, then, everybody's in trouble. So, it can create a lot of problems. So, that's - - that's what -- that's where DEQ is coming from. Central District Health, I have talked to them quite extensively about this, and they have various areas that they have created mosquito abatement districts, but those are largely ineffective, because it takes care of one particular area and they don't -- you can't put up a wall or a curtain to keep the mosquitoes from going somewhere else, so it is a universal problem and no one's been able to come up with a solution yet. McCandless: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. McCandless. McCandless: Are you counting your five percent open space as part of -- your wetlands there as part of the five percent? Cook: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman McCandless, no, we aren't. Just the micropath themselves, which is a 15 foot wide landscape strip. McCandless: Okay. Thank you. Corrie: Any other questions of Mr. Cook? Bird: I have none, Mayor. Corrie: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to issue testimony at this time? We have in the -- oh, yes. Go ahead. Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 34 of 46 Broer: It is. Corrie: Thank you. Broer: My name is Chris Broer,387 Westbury Drive in Meridian and I live in the subdivision that's immediately south of the proposed site. My concerns are two fold. One, general concern about property price, appreciation, in Boise and Idaho ranking 47th, 48th, respectively on -- because I think there is too much general supply of subdivisions and homes in Meridian, but, aside from that, my true concern is the pond -- the still water that will be immediately adjacent. I live on the street that you can see is immediately south of the proposed site, right along that barrier there, and I respect that the developer is working within the guidelines presented to him, but I still am very concerned about that still water that's going to be there and the resulting mosquito infestations that will likely occur. I'm also concerned about -- you can see the respective common areas within our subdivision and when you look at the five percent that's being used, most of it is going to be an egress, rather than a -- kind of a common area where people can gather and so forth and, again, I understand the constraints of that particular site, but being adjacent to that and looking how that's being calculated, that the five percent really just seems to be a small =- I know it's 25 foot wide, but you can see the comparison to the common areas in our subdivision. So, again, my biggest concern is about the still water, the mosquitoes, it's right up against where our homes are in the existing subdivision. I have been there for ten years, so I try to bring the perspective of along time homeowner there and I'm just concerned about that and I did make my feelings known at the Planning and Zoning meeting as well. And I thank you for your time. Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Chris. Is there anyone else that would like to issue testimony? Okay. Hearing none, Council, comments? Oh, I'm sorry. There is no more testimony. Mr. Cook, do you have any rebuttal or -- all right. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Council? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: Brad, I think your department probably gets the bulk of the complaints and - - and you're looked at for the solutions for some of this. I think ACHD has been struggling to deal with drainage issues as well. Is there anything different they could be doing? Watson: Council Member McCandless -- I'm sorry. De Weerd. Mayor and Council Members. This is a problem that's ongoing recently, probably over the last 12 to 18 months, where state rules, DEO, ACHD requirements, city landscape requirements all conflict to create this. No one's found it yet, as Mr. Cook has testified, and as Bruce Freckleton testified during the Planning and Zoning meeting. It's very, very difficult. Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 35 of 46 The one thing to point out is that although it has happened in the past that Nampa- Meridian has -- has issued a license agreement for offset discharge, I think we need to look at this in a worst case manner, because their April 15th, 2003, letter specifically says all storm drainage must be retained on site. That doesn't say that that's not to mean that they can't work it out as the plans come through, but that's what we have right now. Corrie: Brad, if they flip-flop the water area to the north side, I guess it is, instead of on the south side, would that do any good as far as the distance that they could not have that -- Watson: Mr. Mayor, there is an existing subdivision immediately north of this as well. It would be upgradient to South Slough, as we call it, the Finch lateral as Nampa-Meridian calls it, runs along the south boundary. I'm sure that's why they have their drainage on the south side, because it's downhill. Corrie: Shows you what I know. Okay. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: Instead of having three different drainage ponds, could they not consolidate it into one larger area, then, your holding wouldn't be so deep, you would have less of a slope and you could still drain into the South Slough, but, then, you might even be able to have usable open space. Is that feasible? Do you have to have it at three different intervals for storm water drainage reasons or - Watson: Well, Council Member de Weerd, there are ACHD infrastructure specifications that may prevent that. That's a very long piece. It may not prevent it, but they may need to install storm drain piping two-thirds of the way up and down that street, with drop inlets. That would be rather expensive. Just from a personal viewpoint, I like when it's spread out over different areas. In fact, if we had the borrow ditch, similar to like Haven Cover Four or Five, I think they had some groundwater problems at the time and they experimented with no sidewalk on one side. The more you concentrate storm water the bigger a problem it becomes, generally. That's purely from a storm water perspective. Maybe there are some landscaping benefits that would offset that. Corrie: Any other questions? Okay. What would you -- like to close the Public Hearing? You want to continue the Public Hearing for answers or approve it or deny it? It's up to the Council. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 36 of 46 Bird: If we don't have anymore public hearings -- or public comments, I move that we close the public hearings for PP 03-007 and also VAR 03-012, for Clearbrook Estates Subdivision by R.K. Development, LLC. Corrie: All right. Motion has been made to close the Public Hearing. Is there a second to that? Nary: Second. Corrie: There is a second. Any further discussion? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I would like to see this continued to make sure. I think that Brad had raised a comment in the -- the irrigation district's letter about storing water on site. That really would eliminate the ability to drain into the South Slough. So, you know, I would like clarification on the reason for that comment and -- because I see that as at least helping lessen the standing water issues and those drainage issues or drainage areas to help alleviate how much standing water is there and I think that has to be a real -- it is a real serious concern. The drainage in the South Slough lessens or at least mitigates it to a certain extent and I would like to hear their answer before - so that would be considered new testimony. I'd like to hear about that before we close the Public Hearing. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: What you brought up, Tammy, I did not see that as a condition of approval from Planning and Zoning or the staff, the -- being able to drain that into the ditch, but maybe it was. I could have missed that. I didn't see it as an approval. It was something that I think Mr. Cook just stated up here that he felt he could get approval to do that when we asked about standing water. I have a lot of concerns on that standing water, but I don't know how we are going to solve it when you have -- when you have the federal departments out here mandating that you do it that way. Certainly, the developer and the Council and the Planning and Zoning and the staff are between a rock and a hard place and I -- the letter from -- that Brad had, I have not seen that in this -- in this deal at all. I don't think it was part of this application here. I don't know. Maybe it was. Corrie: Brad? Watson: Mr. Mayor. It did make it into P&Z's recommendations, but that's one of those things that happen outside of the city's purview where ACRD will have to be a party to the license agreement with Nampa-Meridian, because it's serving their right of way. It's Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 37 of 46 not one of those things that the city enforces and Mr. Mills is here tonight, maybe he could speak to that a little bit more specifically, but we don't -- or at least when I sign a plat I don't just look at the city's conditions, I'm looking at other agencies' conditions as well and that's one that has popped up from time to time that causes problems. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess I would like to hear from Mr. Mills, but we have two -- we have conflicting requirements. We have DEQ saying you have to line it and you have Central District Health saying you can't create a mosquito breeding area and I know we have had problems in other subdivisions. We can't continue to stick our head in the sand on this issue. We need to find something and incorporate it into our findings and make it a conditional of approval. I don't know what that is. But if we don't start figuring it out, we are just going to be furthering the problem and getting nowhere. Mills: Is there a question there? Corrie: Is the testimony you are about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mills: Yes Corrie: Name and address. Mills: Bruce Mills. Ada County Highway District, Garden City De Weerd: Bruce, I guess the question is more on the license agreement and maybe Brad could phrase the question better than I can. Watson: Sure. Specifically, the question is when you approve the storm drainage plans for the public right of way and discharge into a jurisdictional stream that is under Nampa-Meridian, the developer and you and the irrigation district, from what I understand, enter into a license agreement. Mills: That's my understanding as well. Watson: And that's not handled through the city, we are not a party to that agreement. ACHD reviews those plans, we don't. We don't approve those plans. But that's why it can get around our findings, the city's findings, and sneak it's way in on the back side. De Weerd: So, that, in essence, can be some of the problem that if we don't list it as a condition and you can't secure the license agreement for drainage into the natural stream, then, they don't drain anywhere, they just retain the water and let it evaporate, is that correct? I know you -- Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 38 of 46 Mills: Mr. Mayor and Councilwoman de Weerd, I'm not as up on it as our development review section is as far as the requirements, but I do know that, yes, this has been a very difficult problem in these areas with high groundwater and, as the applicant stated tonight, with the new changes with DEQ and this separation, you can no longer just allow it to filter into the ground as we did in the past. So, as the pond fills up, the wet pond, it's still my understanding that there needs to be some type of an outlet to get, you know, it released at the predevelopment rate, which is why I think it is going to be important that that percentage of the water be allowed to flow into Nampa-Meridian. Now, if that's not allowed to happen, that would be a very undesirable situation, as you said, because just waiting for it to evaporate could take a long time. The other problem that we have seen in these subdivisions is that, you know, it doesn't take rain, where everyone's irrigating it just tends to all flow to the low point and sit there from just water, sprinkling. De Weerd: So, where in the process with ACHD does this license agreement come up? Where do you hear from Nampa-Meridian that that would be allowed? Mills: When the construction plans come to us for the final plat, during that period of time that's when all of these situations get ironed out. De Weerd: Wow. I guess is there any way we can get a commitment for that drainage before we make a decision? Mills: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman de Weerd, the only thing I could say is if the applicant isn't -- and maybe they are in a time critical situation. Perhaps deferring this I could get some better answers for you on the exact procedure that we are going to go through at ACHD. De Weerd: Thank you. Since we still have a motion on the table to close, I would like to consider his offer and if see we can get further information on that. If the commitment can be made at apre-approval stage, that is where we would like it. Corrie: But right now you say it's at final plat? Mills: Correct. That's correct. De Weerd: With construction plans. Mills: And I also know that there are some irrigation districts that do not want to allow any flow into their systems at all. I don't know where -- I'm sorry, I don't know if Nampa- Meridian is one of those, but I can find that out. Corrie: Thank you. Mr. Cook, would you come here just a second? How much time have you got to do all this or not? Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 39 of 46 Cook: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, I'm sure you have heard this before, but virtually none. It really is in this particular situation a very time critical process that we are involved in. I have no problem with contacting Nampa-Meridian Irrigation District. In fact, I have already got the application completed and a check from the developer ready to go to Nampa-Meridian within the next two days just for this particular issue and we will be coming back before the Council for the final plat. I don't have any difficulty whatsoever, as soon as I get word from Nampa-Meridian to forward that on for Brad Watson or the Council, via a separate letter or whatever, but I would request that we be allowed to go forward with our final plat process and not hold up the preliminary plat at this time. Corrie: I don't know whether that satisfies you or not. Bird: I think that we need to -- we have ways to do it, we have got on here -- we have got a motion before the floor, let's have a vote and see which way we want to go and I think there is still ways to come back and -- and this is something that is a problem-for more than just this development and I agree with Tammy, something's got to be done with getting these recommendations out and this is a bad situation, but we don't stop it on just one -- we don't start stopping it on one. This is a problem that is throughout the city, it's not just one deal. So, I would ask for the question. Let's vote. Corrie: Okay. The question has been asked for and the question is to close the Public Hearing. We have had a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Opposed no. All right. Motion dies. What's your pleasure now? De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I would like to continue this Public Hearing and I would defer to either the applicant or ACHD --one week. Is that sufficient? In getting an answer on when or if we can get an answer on if they can drain into the South Slough. Also, I would like to get some additional information on how in these lined ponds mosquito abatement can be -- what kind of plan could be worked into it, because I would like to see a plan adopted as one of the conditions and perhaps in the CC&R's of the -- which we have nothing to do with, but I would suggest that maybe that plan be incorporated as well. We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and I know in-fill projects are really limited with the amount of space they have to do, but this is beginning to be a serious problem, it exists today in our older subdivisions, but it doesn't mean that we need to continue to approve them and further the problem. So, we might take this opportunity and see what -- what - - I'm sorry -- what solutions are out there. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 40 of 46 Nary: In addition to that, I guess we haven't had a tremendous amount of discussion. I did hear Mr. Cook's testimony regarding the traffic on the street. I am not in favor of stop signs as alternatives to traffic calming and I agree with Councilwoman de Weerd that I can't see why some traffic calming device cannot be in this location. You can certainly change the storm water pond to a slight enough degree or simply -- simple change the access for this lot and this lot enough to allow some type of island or something in this location. I don't want to leave it to a stop sign at some point in the future. Again, I don't really think that's the best alternative. I think that that's something I would like to at least -- the applicant to consider before they come back, but right now, based on the way this is designed and laid out, I couldn't support it, in addition to these concerns about the storm water pond. I just think it's a very dangerous roadway we are creating and an environment that's more of a danger than a plus and I think it can be remedied with some very simple engineering in that spot to help slow down some traffic and I just would like to see some creativity towards that. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council? Corrie: Anna. Powell: Could task -- the city engineer brought up briefly a discussion of the borrow pit concept with flat curb or a ribbon curve where the storm water would be retained the entire length of the street potentially on both sides as a way to disperse that. I'm not sure if Meridian has had many of those types of situations. I know that they are occurring in Eagle. They have been in for about year now and I'm not sure how effective they have been. Would that be something you're willing to consider in this situation? Some communities, quit frankly, just say, no, we don't want it, we want straight -- you know, we want vertical curb and that's the end of the discussion, kind of, but, basically, the water flows off the street into a narrow borrow ditch. The trick is getting the homeowners to leave that borrow ditch there, rather than filling it in, but I think that the development communities have come up with some ideas on how to do that. Would you be even willing to entertain that, if the developer is willing to work with staff to maybe find a solution that way, possibly? Corrie: Isn't there something on Haven Cove that did that? Was that working? Okay. Because I remember Haven Cove coming in here and talking about that and they were doing that and Ididn't -- haven't heard anything pros or cons, but -- Watson: Mr. Mayor, I know it worked for at least a couple years, but it's probably been a couple years since I have been out there. Corrie: Okay. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Meridian City CounGl July 15, 2003 Page 41 of 46 Bird: Mr. Mayor, I agree, let's - we are open, I believe, for anything -- to try anything and I think it has been -- I think that has been successful and I think it was Haven Cove, wasn't it, Brad, and -- I think it was successful. Corrie: Okay. Bird: Anything. Anything. Corrie: Was that a motion, Mrs. de Weerd, to continue it until July the 22nd? De Weerd: Mr. Cook, would one week give you enough time? Staff, one week or are we okay with -- Cook: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman de Weerd, I hope so. It will have to be via some phone conversations and maybe something verbal coming from Nampa-Meridian. Generally it's taking them several weeks to process their applications. So, I'll do what I can in that regard. And as far as the traffic calming is concerned, I don't see where that would be a major problem at that intersection. The answer to staff's question about the borrow ditch, it's a requirement by ACHD that that's only permitted when you have lots that are one acre or larger in size, otherwise, no borrow ditch. Powell: They have approved them on less. I know for a fact. Sedona Creek in Eagle is 10 to 16 thousand square foot lots. They are larger lots, agreed, but they -- it was considerably less than an acre. Cook: That must have been a policy waiver or something that was requested and approved by the ACHD commissioners, because their policy does state you have to have one acre lots or greater. Corrie: We will have our staff look into for you, too, so make sure. Cook: One week, we will certainly accept that and try to come back with some firm answers and if I can get something in writing from Nampa-Meridian on acceptance of storm water and understand that's pre-development flow on the storm water and, generally, they are accepting pre-development flows into their sloughs and ditches, so we will see where that takes us. Corrie: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cook. Bruce, would you like something to -- you had a look on your face like you want to talk. Mills: Actually, it was the same thing, Mr. Mayor, that we will only allow them on one acre. We have tried a couple of subdivisions with some smaller lots -- not this small -- on atrial basis. They have been longer lots to where we have said put the swale towards -- in front of the sidewalk towards the road. I don't know that it would work on these, but that's the ones that we have done it on a trial basis and the jury is still out on those. Meridian City Council July 15, 2003 Page 42 of 46 Corrie: Okay. Thank you. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor'? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move that we continue the Public Hearing for Items 18 and 19 to July 22nd, 2003. McCandless: Second. Corrie: Okay. And that's for both of them. Okay. We have a motion and a second to continue the Public Hearing on Item PP 03-007 and Variance 03-012. Any further discussion? All those in favor of the motion say aye. Opposed no? Motion carried. There will be a continuance of these two until July 22nd this year. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 20: Continued Public Hearing from June 10, 2003: Dust Abatement Ordinance• Corrie: Item No. 20 is the continued Public Hearing from June 10th, 2003, on a dust abatement ordinance. So, at this time I will open the Public Hearing -- the continued Public Hearing and have staffs comments first. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, at your last hearing -- I'm not sure that -- well, we talked about the dust ordinance and what was occurring in the rest of the county as far as what applications they had or what they were processing and there are no dust abatement ordinances being done in the county. Boise city, through its storm water regulations, has done some track out provisions for tracking mud onto city streets, but there is -- nothing has been done in the name of dust abatement. Some of the cities like Kuna and Eagle have -- have looked at their bum ordinances as far as air quality is concerned, but there is no one doing dust abatement ordinances in the county at this time. When we left it last time I believe it was so that you all could discuss it at Compass, rather than -- you didn't direct staff to prepare anything additional for the hearing and it was I believe going to be a discussion with your Compass board to see where you may want to go with this ordinance at this time. That's all I have. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: I believe Anna was right, you and Tammy were going to discuss this at Compass and see what has come, because I think it's just something that until everybody gets on board -- all the municipalities, including Ada county, it's not going to do us a bit of good