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HomeMy WebLinkAbout03May07 Golf Course Committee MinsGOLF COURSE COMMITTEE Wednesday, May 7, ZO103 at 5:30 pm Mayor's Conference Room Meridian City Ha// AttendQnce: C Wo/t Morrow X Char/ie Rountree X Keith Bird x JoAnn But/er ~ Tom funkhouser ~_ Shin 6a//ivcrn ~ Jim Johnson ~ Jennifer LoVQn-Ho/%wcry x Dovid Moe Crieg Stee% D Brod WQtSOn d E/roy Huff Wi// Berg Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 The Golf Course Committee Meeting was called to order by Chairman Walt Morrow at 5:35 P.M. at the Meridian City Hall. Members Present: David Moe, Sharon Gallivan, Joann Butler, Keith Bird, Charlie Roundtree, Tom Funkhouser, Creg Steele, Walt Morrow and Will Berg. Members Absent: Jim Johnson, Jennifer Lovan-Holloway, Brad Watson and Elroy Huff. Morrow: May 7th at 5:35 P.M. I have given you each handouts that Will has provided us with. Minutes of our last meeting, a menu of who is all on the Committee and then a piece about bond issue stuff. We are not going to have a guest tonight with respect to some of the financing options. So what I thought we would do is that we jump right in. I'm assuming that everybody has kind of reviewed the packages and stuff we had from our last meeting. I think that what we need to do is begin to establish the things that are incorrect that need to be fixed. Our goal here is to define the problems, define the remedies, assign a cost to the remedies and then give the Council a menu of options in terms of solving those problems. Then the Council and the Mayor can make the decision as to which of the options they wish to do. So having said that I think that what we want to do is we want to start the list of what the current problems are and they would be facility problems. Management style and those kinds of things I don't think are appropriate for what our task is. So David we'll start with you, lets have a copy of your list. Butler: And Walt you know if I can interrupt. If I could (inaudible). What we had done with Jennifer and Tom at one point was pull together a list taken from the USGA report of what Matt Nelson had identified and then we made a real (inaudible) and so what we did we provided this to Bud several weeks ago and this is what he was just going to run through and kind of do a little (inaudible). Anyway those numbers are, we had no idea but we kind of guesstimated. (Inaudible). That's a list you can start with. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: Charlie please. Roundtree: You just stated what our goal and task was and I would like to make sure that somebody gets that down and we all get that and all concur and that's what it is we are about. So (inaudible). Morrow: Will believes that is in our last weeks minutes. For some reason if it isn't it should be on the record for this weeks minutes. I guess the obvious question that I'm going to ask each of you is that did you see any other Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 2 of 29 challenges that we need to address other then what we talked about. And I'll start with you David. Moe: Pretty much what I'm trying to anticipate is has there been a list as far as the complaints or whatever that came forward to the golf course or are you looking for us to come kind of up with some of the things we see that need to be done out there. Morrow: I think the answer to that question is is that we are looking for things that can be remedied by dollars and cents and effect the physical plant so that it can be in conformance with what are the standards going to be. Obviously a lot of the things in terms of the physical plant like dry spots so on so forth we'll get through. If there are issues dealing with the current management or management expertise or things like that, those are not issues that we are prepared to handle or should we I believe. Now obviously if there's a real strong feeling by the committee that we ought to have some sort of input into that then fine we'll go there but if we choose to go there my preference would be to have a paragraph that says there are some weaknesses in management and may or may not need to be directed. But I don't believe that those are issues that are addresses by the lease. Moe: I agree with what you just said. I think in this process if we do identify those things they shouldn't be lost. But we have to recognize (inaudible) may not be to resolve those and deal with those but (inaudible). Morrow: Very good. Tom, your thoughts. Funkhouser: I have very little to offer other than the fact I concur with the USGA report on the conditions that presently exist. Morrow: Charlie. Roundtree: (Inaudible) that Mr. Bird, I think that its good that we have a Council person here and I think its good that Keith's here to listen and I would hope that your decision making (inaudible) Council. Bird: (Inaudible). Funkhouser: (Inaudible) Council's not going to go for that. Bird: I (inaudible) what the Council is going to go for. I'm just one person. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Moe: I would interject somewhat on that same line and I asked Walt prior to coming into this meeting and it was to no offense but I was a little bit concerned Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 3 of 29 seeing Jennifer in the meeting last week. I mean to me I guess I'm curious I mean we're trying - I know we are going to confront the issues and try and see how we resolve the issues but based on (inaudible) Council they're on the other side of the fence. So. Roundtree: I don't disagree with that. I think certainly your presence here is good but what's ameanable to them right now is not the issue. The issue is what do we see (inaudible) coming from. (Inaudible). Moe: Quite frankly Walt gave you a very good explanation more less its good to have her here for historical (inaudible) and what not in the process which is great. Morrow: Joann. Butler: Yeah thanks. And historical data and also day to day operations and knows almost like the back of your hand. And speaking for Jennifer and I know that her goals have been as we started this process. How we identify the needs what's the best way to identify the needs. They understand full well they are a tenant of the city and that's the relationship in trying to solidify the relationship between the city and them. So I think it's appropriate absolutely to have them together -- yeah I think everybody should feel free to say all the inaudibles they want and get it across. Gallivan: The list does incorporate the issues that Matt Nelson brought forward. It is a laundry list it is not meant to be all inclusive although we try to bring in everything we could think of. The estimates where we have projected costs are just estimates and just ball park figures. So there's my disclaimer. Morrow: But that's the best we have. Gallivan: It's just a start. Morrow: Creg. Steele: Actually I don't have anything. I think everybody has covered a lot of the good points in this thing and I just hope we can stay unbiased and figure out what's best. Morrow: (inaudible) let me answer that. When we're all done with this and this project is completed we'll all go to dinner and have cocktails until (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: All right very good. So lets start with as a working place, lets start with our list and start working our way down through that. -And I'll go around with you on each topic one by one asking for comments and anything - and I view these Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 4 of 29 things basically as brainstorming sessions -anything that comes into your mind with respect for example the irrigation system and we've got a projected cost of one to one and a half million. We'll take that and go around that table, we'll collect any additional thoughts and then we'll move on to the second items and so on so forth. So having said that, Mr. Roundtree. Roundtree: Just. a (inaudible). The assumption we make is the improvement identified in the projected cost is to bring it to USGA standards. Morrow: Correct. Roundtree: (inaudible). Morrow: That is correct and I think that furthermore after this meeting once we get through here at our next meeting we will maybe try to get some, hopefully we'll get the financing person on board or one of them. Hopefully we can get somebody on there that can generate maybe a little bit tighter numbers where there are a range of numbers perhaps. So we have a feel for that. And anything else that develops as we go around with each item in terms of additional things that each of you might thank of. So having said that I'll start with irrigation system, David. Moe: Quite frankly I have no comment. Is there plans of the golf course? Morrow: Not really its one of those things with the irrigation system where the golf course general and I think a legitimate reason is given the changes of boundaries from when everything was built that probably an appropriate thing would be to have some defined plans showing actual boundaries as they exist today. I think that is going to be one of the requirements in terms of defining costs for an irrigation system. Moe: We got a final plat or something didn't we? I doubt we do on the first nine but - Morrow: I've never seen anything on the first nine. Moe: How about the back nine, did we get one on - Morrow: We'll we had some information but it was just generally laid out free hand, it was not a surveyed map. Bird: Your going to have a lot of work just getting the cost up on that irrigation system because we don't have that thing - I bet you if we had a defined lay out of that course David could probably give us a real close cost in about five days through his suppliers. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 5 of 29 Butler: In regard to a map is there is a couple things. What we did to kind of get a handle on that. Was we just took the Assessors records from and -with a section map and then laid it out and subtracted out anything that had individual ownership and so we actual have -are working on it and we could actually reduce that down and get it down so that we have something that we could work from that gives us a general kind of an aerial view with using the Assessors records. The other thing is is that the city might want to contact, I think it was Hubble there is a bill when we went through the files I don't know how old it is but not that old there was a bill that the city paid several thousand dollars for a survey from Hubble. So that must of happened. And so what we ought to do is maybe get Hubble to get us that survey. Bird: You bet. Did Parks and Recreation have that done? Morrow: No that survey would have been done at the time that we originally did the Golf Course expansion thing. That was the survey that I've told you guys about that told us that set the boundaries, the operating boundaries that was responsible for one of the tee boxes or one of the greens being incorrect. Now in fairness to those folks some of that stuff was modified by development parcels as they came along. It was also the survey I believe that told us that the ponds were interconnective and free flowing and they turned out not to be. Bird: Not to be. Morrow: So the survey that Joann references is that survey and it is a survey that was handled at the very first of the expansion committee's things. Bird: Do you know who would have any of that information Walt or would the golf committee have that you suppose? Morrow: Would that be in our archives, that survey or just the proof of paying? Gallivan: I never could come across it. I looked for it specifically. I found the payment, I've got the check and the invoice for it but I could never find the survey itself. Roundtree: If they are recorded they should be at the county or at (inaudible). Question for Dave. If (inaudible) can you use that on some sort kind ascale - Moe: Oh yeah. Roundtree: A fairly decent estimate? That we could probably get and have the city (inaudible) I would think through the (inaudible). Gallivan: COMPASS has the 2000 but - Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 6 of 29 Roundtree: If COMPASS has it they probably might even give it you for free or just at cost. 20 bucks, they are not expensive and if we get a reasonable size in that scale. (Inaudible). It would be a whole lot cheaper then trying to -and if we can't find a surveyor or something (inaudible). Morrow: Well and I think it would be more accurate then the survey we're talking about because the survey that we are talking about was really early on in this process. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Morrow: That is correct. Bird: Problem is also you aren't going to have anything on the first nine. Roundtree: Your right. (Inaudible). Morrow: Because that was all constructed in deed to the city by virtue of (inaudible) Leavitt-Nu Pacific. Bird: And I'm positive they never had the (inaudible). Morrow: So Will can you make contact with COMPASS and see if they got something there that we can use (inaudible) aerial. Which would be the same kind of guys that take pictures of farms and try to sell (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Roundtree: You can actually calculate areas and (inaudible). Morrow: So you and I will work on that before the next meeting. All right very good. Any other thoughts with respect to boundaries and that would work really closely with trying to resolve the issue and costing of the issue in terms of the sprinkler system. Which then also would lead to. I wonder did this irrigation system include a new pump facilities, pump houses mains and those kinds of things? Funkhouser: Yes. Morrow: So all of that is incorporated within that. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Funkhouser: The cost is going to vary according to the demand of the system. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 7 of 29 Morrow: As opposed to phased. That's his question. This was a million to a million and a half is done. Funkhouser: That would include the pump station. Morrow: And all done at the same time. Funkhouser: 18 holes. Morrow: Okay great. Funkhouser: A million and a half or whatever you have there a million five includes all 18 holes. Butler: I know Tom and Jennifer have talked about you know things we might be able to get away with not doing phasing or something like that and I know this (inaudible) but when we were putting this together we thought we'll lets go full hog and back off later. Morrow: I don't disagree with that because ultimately it's all going to be a functional cost and once again in my opinion that is a decision for the City Council to make whether its (inaudible). If this is one of the projects that's not all at once or phased. Gallivan: And the one to one point five was Matt Nelson's estimate. Funkhouser: I add that -you talk about the irrigation system. No matter who you get for a designer it's going to require an aerial photograph, GPS plot, 1 inch equals 100 feet, before you can do anything. Morrow: Okay, very good. Any other thoughts with respect to the irrigation system? Gallivan: Just one thought and that is we've talked about how important -Matt stressed how important it is that they have someone who has done this before design it not to just put it together piece mail or to try and go with someone who has experience with irrigation systems but someone who has experience with irrigation systems related to golf courses. Because working through Matt they are just different, they are just different. Moe: I would agree that as far as the purpose of what we are trying to do. If we can get close enough basically I mean they are take a look at the size, they are going to know the main line sizes they are going to be needed and then basically team off and try to get the area covered and what not. The heads and what not Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 8 of 29 are going to change but as far as your main systems. They are pretty much the same. Funkhouser: I don't agree with you 100 percent Dave. Moe: You don't. Funkhouser: You haven't established the parameters for your water system yet. And that includes, do you want wall to wall (inaudible) coverage. What is the precipitation weight you would like to have. What type of controls do you want to have, individual head controls, which would be a requirement for tees and greens. Maybe two head controls on the fairways. How long can you water. This is all going to influence the size of the pipes and the type of sprinklers you use. Moe: I agree but basically what I'm talking about though is who I'm going to have take a look at it would be basically landscape architects that have - no they may not do a lot of golf course but they have had some work in them along with a couple of the irrigation companies that we work with that do golf course work. Funkhouser: Okay. I still disagree with you but that's fine. Morrow: What our goal here is to get a what I call feasibility study which in our business which is a plus or minus 10 percent number and using that as a disclaimer so that when the presentation is made to the Council. This is a feasibility study type of deal you have to qualify this that this could be plus or minus 10 percent and it could be greater than that if you delay two three four years in implementation. So I think in our report we give the Council the parameters of which we are starting at then they can (inaudible) and make their decisions based on that. Fair enough. Anything else with respect to irrigation? (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: I think what we want to do is we want to get through the list of the improvements and we can generate that list and then once we start doing costing we'll get outside sources for a good accurate costing and then we'll have the two outside sources to give us information with respect to sources of funding and then some (inaudible) that we may come up with and then present all that to the Council. So what I want to focus on now is just the improvements and what we think its going to - I mean ball park costing that is generated here is a good number its a guideline, I would think until we get further down here with better costing information and the fund sources. The key to success is to get at everything on the list that we want or that we need or that we see has a need. So having said that we will move to the maintenance building. Metal (inaudible) no paint no (inaudible) apparently that's making the case for the metal Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 9 of 29 (inaudible). I guess the obvious question is that enough facility in terms of a golf course maintenance building? Funkhouser: (Inaudible) just a figure we picked out. Moe: I will tell you right now if I could get one for 50,000 dollars I'd buy about four of them today. I will tell you I've just finished pricing one and it was about 40 by 80 all the way through. Depending on what they are going to put in it. You know if its going to be an enclosed structure with some unit heaters and what not and electrical and what not. You are going to pay somewhere between 40 to 50 dollars a square foot just to have this done. So you are looking at basically 150,000 dollars. Butler: Okay so that may be (inaudible) so that may be a better number. Morrow: Well there's no doubt of that. Moe: How much did you pay for yours. Come on, come on. Bird: (Inaudible). Morrow: The number is good for ball park purposes and getting the feasibility is that when somebody asks I think in terms of 40 bucks a foot. 40 bucks a foot gets you concrete floor and an eight foot approach slab around the outside. Gets you a modern amount of overhead doors. (Inaudible). Electrics. Probably an 18 foot E pipe maybe 16 and that I think describe what it is these folk need but I certainly wouldn't go for anything less then 40 dollars a square foot. For the purposes of this discussion. So I'm good with your number. Moe: So do you want to go in and buy some for 50 thousand and figure out how we take care of it from here? Morrow: Listen if we can get this and get it rolled over we would be done with this meeting real quick. A couple weeks from now we can have this meeting in the Bahamas or something like that. Okay so we're going to use 45 dollars a square foot? Moe: I think that would be wise. Morrow: Okay. Anybody else have thoughts in terms of that particular. Berg: Just a point of clarification. Where its located might depend on how what other little amenities we may have to add to the building. (Inaudible). Steele: It has been discussed. I don't know if underground (inaudible) or not. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 10 of 29 Moe: (Inaudible) an issue. Bird: It won't be a big time issue. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee) Steele: Even getting some of the land real estate could become a problem out there too. Butler: With location correct. Morrow: I think those with respect to location and amenities. Those are issues that the City Council's in a position to either require or not require. I think that in the purposes of our report we should recognize those as being optional but not costly because that would then be a direct consequence of their action and their requirements and I would think or hope that the Council would take cost in consideration before they make decisions like that. Gallivan: Well the only thing that I have to add to that is going back through the files and we are going back to the beginning we're talking late 70's early 80's there is mentioned that there was supposed to be land donated for the maintenance shed property and I don't think that ever happened. I can't see where that ever happened so that maybe an issue there. Morrow: Sharon my suspicion is that that land was probably going to be part of the second nine area and that due to all the bankruptcies and changing ownerships that all got lost, is my guess. Because I have never ever seen anything that indicates that there was land reserved for that. Gallivan: I don't see anything where the land was reserved. I see the notations where there was supposed to be land that was supposed to be set aside for that but. Morrow: And that's all (inaudible). Roundtree: (Inaudible). Bird: (Inaudible) bankruptcies out there and different bankruptcies but we got lost binds and everything else in the process of doing (inaudible). Morrow: Okay lets move on. Lightweight fairway mowers. Is that number a good number? Funkhouser: That is a good figure. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 11 of 29 Morrow: Okay is everybody good with that number? That's (inaudible). I guess my question is how many of those do you use on a golf course? Funkhouser: You should have a minimum of two. Butler: And Tom, so is that 30,000 is that for two? Moe: Is that per each one? Funkhouser: No that's per each unit. Morrow: Same question would apply to dedicated rotary mowers. Funkhouser:. One dedicated wing unit and that's a correct figure I believe. Morrow: Okay. Next item is new greens. Is this number one green number six number seven and number nine is that what they intended that verbiage is. Moe: It's to rebuild them. Morrow: Now are those the old greens that need to be rebuilt? Funkhouser: Yes. Morrow: In the USGA report I saw reference to -are these the ones that have the bad slope. Funkhouser: Bad slope. Morrow: Do they have drainage problems? Or do all the greens have drainage problems? Funkhouser: Well they all have drainage problems because they are old. But the immediate need are these ones with to much slope. Morrow: Okay so then the question in my mind becomes is that whose responsibility or what's the potential responsibility for replacement of existing greens that are just old and or don't drain or don't have the right turf and those kinds of things. Do we need to put in some number for the other 14 greens? Funkhouser: If sky was the limit and you wanted to bring your golf course up to standards like Banbury or Ridgecrest. All the greens would be rebuilt. They are 24 years old on the back nine. Most greens that were built years ago are not up to standard with drainage and contours etcetera. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 12 of 29 Morrow: (Inaudible) USGA standards. Funkhouser: Right. I want to clarify something that is floating around. The USGA does not have standards. Morrow: Okay. Funkhouser: They have recommendations. And these recommendations are based upon the needs of the golf course that they are visiting. Every golf course is going to have a different need. And the purpose of the USGA is to try to improve playing conditions at the existing golf courses within the budget limitations of that golf course. Morrow: Okay that's fair enough. So my question still is that do we want to know what it will cost to rehab the other 14 greens. Funkhouser: I don't think you need to. Morrow: You don't think we need to. Moe: I don't think we need to either. Basically they are identifying ones that are in need of repair. Morrow: Does anybody have a strong emotion about identifying that? Roundtree: I think what has been done here gets to the issue of these were not constructed to (inaudible) recommendation guidelines or whatever you want. (Inaudible) remedy that. The rest of them need some kind of slow drainage. Generally are serviceable for the kind of golf course it is and now we are trying to as needed and maybe one every other year or a couple every year to get rebuilt (inaudible). Morrow: So the consensus here then is that the other 14 holes are more of a maintenance issue as opposed to a facilities issue? Are we in agreement there? All right very good. Butler: And in any kind of report it might just be a footnote you know that it was discussed and you know it wasn't probably an immediate need. Morrow: I think it's a good concept Joann (inaudible) clearly there is no question in anybody's mind what it is we are doing in terms of fact finding. Okay. Anything else with respect to the greens? Any other thoughts? Okay. Lets move on to aerating equipment. How do you feel about that 12,000 there? Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 13 of 29 Funkhouser: They presently don't have an aerating unit. They lease or rent from year to year which is acceptable. But if they were to buy that figure was put in there if they were to buy that's what it would cost. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Moe: Do we know what the dollars have been when they've been having it done, what to they charge to have the course aerated? Funkhouser: Well there's nobody in the business that actually does that in this area. Moe: They lease the equipment to do it with your own staff right? Funkhouser: Generally done in house. Steele: I would like to bring up something that Matt brought up is the aeration is kind of a second issue. He said you can aerate that thing until its just all holes and its not going to make a difference until you fix the water. He said that's something that yes down the road you need to have a decent schedule to work within that but if your not getting enough water you can run that aerator across rock and gravel all you want and its not going to do any good. So to him that was a secondary issue to be brought up after some of these other things were fixed. I think we can list it but I don't think it needs to be one of these things that needs to be out there as far as on the front burner. You know that would be kind of like the maintenance type thing with the other (inaudible) as far as maintaining that. Morrow: The other thing (inaudible) and Charlie kind of touched on it and David is that you know this deal in terms of city government is not a whole lot different then what the agricultural guys have been doing forever. And we got a sprayer through Western Ada Recreation and the City of Meridian has a sprayer through their Parks service for herbicides and that kind of thing. Very candidly I think we ought to be swapping equipment back and forth and or operators. Because we are all working toward the same goal and I think maybe in Joann's footnote that's one of the things -one of our recommendations in that stuff because at least you and Keith or I are not (inaudible) with everybody having their own private set of toys. Where we could share toys we could do that so. Roundtree: (Inaudible) deteriorate more (inaudible). Morrow: That's true that's very true. Bird: Especially if they're not properly cleaned out on your herbicide sprayers. I like to see us anytime we can contract out or rent equipment that we are only using so much instead of purchasing equipment. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 14 of 29 Morrow: Okay any other questions with respect to aerating equipment or any of those kinds of things? Plant grass over the irrigation canal. Give me some guidelines what the thinking was there for 1,000 dollars. Funkhouser: This is specifically number three fairway where they recently - where the canal company recently covered the ditch. Morrow: And I knew that in the report there was some belief that nothing could be done with that because of the canal company. I got to tell you in my projects dealing with Nampa Meridian I have not found that to be an issue with them at all with the exception of (inaudible). So. Funkhouser: Jennifer is in the process of trying to talk to Mr. Anderson to get permission to do some things. Morrow: Or Bill Henson. Funkhouser: Like put grass out in that area or along the front of the clubhouse area there. Butler: Do you know if she has been able to do that yet? Funkhouser: She has called him but he hasn't returned the call. Butler: All right then I think I will help heron that one. I'd loved to talk to John. Funkhouser: Well she called him and he was supposed to even come out to the golf course. Moe: Personal note I would rather them not put any grass there on the fairway. I get that good bounce there. That's my second shot Keith. Berg: I think the real issue was like you said but we were talking about designing the sprinkler system that buts up against the easement, your not in the easement you can still water and maintain the grass and still not be treading on Nampa Meridian's (inaudible) easements. Butler: Is that their concern? Roundtree: We own the property they have the easement as far as I'm concerned know we can do what we want as long as we (inaudible) irrigation water and their equipment. Butler: Thank you. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 15 of 29 Morrow: From Nampa Meridian standpoint is that in my experience with them is if they are more then willing to go with that as long as its not shrubbery and trees and those kinds of things (inaudible) if they have to jerk the stuff out and repair something in their pipe its with the understanding that if they screw up your sprinkler system you'll fix your sprinkler system. Worst case comes to worst case we can do a licenses agreement to get all that stuff in writing. Probably make sense to do it that way anyways but I don't see this as being a big problem. Roundtree: They are going to spend more on remedying the problem then (inaudible) cost us (inaudible). In the process of contemplating fencing at least the (inaudible). If it could be taking care of this way they wouldn't have to build a structure (inaudible) chain link up with gates its not cheap. (Inaudible). Morrow: I'd like to Joann if you could make conversation with John and talk to him about all these issues that we've talked about and see if we can get this handled now. Butler: I appreciate what Charlie is saying. It is city ground and it is an easement that goes across that and if its causing problems for the golf course too which is the city asset in terms of (inaudible). Then yeah it just has to visually look like a golf course. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Butler: Absolutely, it shouldn't be an issue but if it is I'll come back and I can (inaudible). Berg: I think Jennifer has talked to Mr. Anderson and I think that (inaudible) and they are working on that and we are also working on the landscape of that (inaudible) because we took away the pathway and it was starting to (inaudible) landscape plan of those (inaudible). Roundtree: (inaudible) homeowners present (inaudible). Berg: Steiner is supposed to be, my understanding is Steiner is supposed to be bringing that back because he has some in the plat to take away that pathway that goes nowhere. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Berg: I think Mr. Arnold was instructed to get with the homeowners association and the golf course. And yes they were looking at a gate or a chain or whatever but there's some incorporation of a vinyl fence coming across with some kind of a locked gate so there isn't a walk through there. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 16 of 29 Butler: And I'll tell you what (inaudible) to Charlie but if it was going to be the homeowners and the golf course give it to us to and we can go talk to them or whomever that we need before they. Morrow: (Inaudible) will you put that together and lets find out who (inaudible). Berg: Sure. Morrow: All right. So then with respect to the irrigation we have got two things going on. Joann is doing follow up conversation probably first with Jennifer to see where she has gotten with John and then you and John pretty well discuss that. We also have an issue with the Steiner folk and the golf course and the homeowners association that kind of dove tails into this and so Will you will get us some facts that are relevant there and then Charlie said he can serve (inaudible) and that will take care of that. Cart paths throughout the system. 50,000. Tom your thoughts there? Funkhouser: Again we picked a figure we threw out and basically we are only thinking of cart paths around the concentrated areas that you've agreed to tees at this point not a continuous cart path on the golf course. And how you approach this would determine how much its going to cost. If you just use gravel and put it on top of the existing sod it won't cost much but if you excavate it and do it properly its going to cost you a little more. Morrow: And so how is this number derived. Funkhouser: Again this figure is more less directed toward concentrated areas around tees and greens on the front nine. I should add. Roundtree: What is the solution is this just road mix on sod or? Funkhouser: The correct way to do it would be to excavate it and then put the gravel down on top of it. Moe: Just gravel. Funkhouser: Gravel or cinders. Morrow: And so this was done with the excavation this number was derived by using the excavation and using gravel? Funkhouser: Yes. Morrow: But on the front nine only. Funkhouser: Front nine only. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 17 of 29 Morrow: What's wrong with the back nine. Funkhouser: The back nine already has some pretty well established. Morrow: Okay. Bird: You are talking about the existing front nine not the old front nine. Funkhouser: I'm talking about the newest nine. I might interject that if you were to rebuild greens mentioned previously that might influence where the park path goes. Because on number one the USGA Matt suggested that the cart path go to the right of the green instead of where it goes on the left. So the cart path if you were to do it tomorrow it might be tore up or in the wrong place so - (End of side one) Morrow: - 100 dollars a tree, 50 to 100 dollars a tree, 100 trees this year. Let me ask you this. Did that envision doing a certain number of trees each year? Or just 50 to 100 trees period? Funkhouser: I think initially you would have a large number to set the course off. Develop quarters to play in. The tree planting is an ongoing project that should be done every year. Some trees should be added because every year you are going to lose a tree. So (inaudible) keep waiting until you've lost a tree if it looks like it's going to die you should replace it. Put something else in there. Not exactly in the same spot but in the same vicinity. Morrow: So what is the viewing of the committee in terms of and I'm going to look at this in terms of a tree allowance. How do you feel about, do you do a couple years worth of trees or do you do just one year worth of trees for the purposes that we are after? What are your thoughts? Moe: Well here again the amount of dollars that would be available is going to (inaudible) how that is done. I would just assume see a large amount in right away and then basically then you are working with the system of for after that point just taking care of what needs to come out (inaudible). But I think definitely of course I'm (inaudible) trees. Morrow: What number would you put forth? Moe: 100 doesn't bother me a bit, throughout the 18 holes. Berg: How many lots along the golf course are not developed? Funkhouser: There is two on my side, three on my side. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 18 of 29 Berg: There is some along the - (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Berg: Fortunately or unfortunately the positioning of trees sometimes does not (inaudible) so the idea is to get as many trees in places that aren't developed yet that don't have a choice. And I know that's what we kind of pushed when we did the original development is to get trees out there. Morrow: So you are thinking 100. Tom are you thinking 100 also? Funkhouser: Pardon. Morrow: Are you thinking 100 trees also? Funkhouser: We just threw that out. Morrow: Charlie your thoughts? Roundtree: I think it's a good idea. I would donate (inaudible). Morrow: So you are good with the 100 number? Rountree: Yeah. Morrow: For purposes of this study. Keith? Bird: Its fine with me. I'm like David, just get it out there as soon as possible (inaudible). Butler: That's about five a hole. You know that seems like the right number to - they keep talking about making corridors between holes or something like that. That makes sense to get the (inaudible). Roundree: (Inaudible) 10,000 dollars (inaudible). Morrow: All right I think with my attitude here is this is one of the things the City Council can make their own decision. I do think going back to one of Joann's footnotes that there ought to be a footnote here that says this is perceived to be an immediate need and that there needs to be some on going yearly effort to replace dead dying trees and increase the amount of trees. Sharon your thought in terms of numbers of trees? Gallivan: Sounds good to me. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 19 of 29 Steele: I agree with Charlie and (inaudible) too that it might not be a priority, if the money is there maybe. Morrow: And this is again the Councils option. So lets budget 10,000 dollars for immediate need trees. Okay the next item is rebuild bunkers on new nine. 1,000 a bunker and there is 10 of them so that is 10,000 dollars. Funkhouser: That is my figure and I probably went to sleep. It's probably going to cost you close to 500 to 600 dollars just for sand to fill them. Morrow: So what do you think the number ought to be? Funkhouser: So probably double that figure. Morrow: Per bunker 2,000 per bunker. Funkhouser: Add these bunkers as it says there on the new nine. Morrow: Okay. The other ones are fine on the old nine. Funkhouser: I think the back nine -the old nine are fine. Morrow: Okay. David, do you agree with that number? Moe: Yeah. Morrow: Charlie? Keith? Joann? Sharon? Creg? Good. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: Okay on carts annual costs. Where does this number come from? Butler: Take this with a grain of salt. I asked (inaudible) I think they try to replace carts every four years. You know the fleet should get changed out over a five year period 20 percent would be replace in carts or maintenance but I'm not sure I should really - do you remember? Gallivan: Yeah it seemed like you have 50 carts. Funkhouser: I think they own about 50 carts. Gallivan: And replacing them over a four year period and she was saying that they do trade them out over the four year period and that would come to that percentage per year. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 20 of 29 Morrow: I think let me throw this out to you. So far everything we have talked about with exception of the (inaudible) are real property. Carts are personal property. Unless the city - we can put this stuff forward but I really don't see that as an obligation of the landlord. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Morrow: And I think that once again that maybe this ought to be in the thing as a footnote that the city has that option. I think that's what they want to do. Butler: I think that's what we wanted to do was have everything in there so that we because when we get down to source of fundings you know it'll be the city, it'll be bonding, it'll be green fess, it will be a lot of different things that go into it but at least everybody is kind of staying on the same page as to what its going to take. Morrow: So we are good to go with that fact that we are going to talk about it we are also going to recognize that it's personal property and its there in somebody's option should we wish to exercise it. Redo the lake on four. 1,000 dollars. Funkhouser: I think we've already done it. Morrow: I guess my follow up question would be is there something that we need to be doing with the other lakes to make them function better or - Funkhouser: The lakes on number seven and number nine have been reworked. Betinite has been added for sealing purposes and they have fountains with lights on them. I don't think there is anything more you can do to them. So the only lakes you have is number four. Is that right? (Inaudible discussion amongst committee) Funkhouser: We changed the connecting pipes so the drain would connect better and clean them up. Roundtree: (Inaudible) fountains in the lake will generally discourage the breeding populations of mosquitoes but the still water and (inaudible). That could become a real issue (inaudible). I don't see anything (inaudible). Morrow: It's a great point I think maybe what we want to do here for the purposes of cost is lets get us a number in terms of what its going to take to fountain those things to get water moving. Roundtree: Mosquito abatement on a regular basis. Morrow: And or mosquito abatement. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 21 of 29 Butler: I know I talked to Jennifer about that last year when we were out there and they do spray, the district - Roundtree: The district (inaudible). Butler: Which is great but it's amazing I know. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Bird: Those fountains were put in by the neighborhood associations and the developer and Cherry Lane Rec. It was a three way deal. And I think that's something that (inaudible) homeowners association (inaudible). Steiner. Morrow: So you could provide us that information. I think part of the other thing is that now that I think about it the driving range lake (inaudible) water there maybe we ought to take a look at that. Bird: How would you aerate something that large? Morrow: We don't need to aerate it. Bird: I mean to keep it moving how would you benefit from (inaudible). Roundtree: (Inaudible). Morrow: Well another thing with this West Nile thing is from what I understand (inaudible) by virtual continual irrigating grass you can grow an environment where they breed. So according (inaudible) for a litigation standpoint I guess you stopped at every blade of grass not having a drop of -water on them. But from a practical standpoint you got to say you know we've done all we can do and life was meant to be lived and if you ten toes up over a mosquito I guess that's your break. It's a bad one but its reality. Butler: I have not heard that phrase before I like that one. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Butler: (Inaudible) by keeping the mosquitoes at bay is there any other method that. Roundtree: It would help to keep the (inaudible) because its transmitted (inaudible). Bird: Pretty hard to do. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 22 of 29 Morrow: I think the life cycle of that particular virus goes from bird to horse to mosquito to human. So you have four components there. So I think we have to make a reasonable attempt and I don't know - Roundtree: (Inaudible). Butler: Sharon and I have talked about this a couple of times with Jennifer you know sources of funding. Mostly because Jennifer was aware that I think it was Weiser got a tremendously huge grant for their golf course because of some threatened species out there and so they put in water. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Butler: Is that it. And so we've just been thinking at this point grants. Roundtree: That is the only one I could think of - Butler: But you know here is maybe a public health issue that we're talking about that and so (inaudible) as that spread came across the state your right and it was headed this way. Maybe there is a public health grant that we could look at for that purpose. Roundtree: You never know (inaudible). Morrow: Okay I think what we got to do in the terms of what our challenge here is that we maybe need to put some dollars in there recognizing that there's got to be some issue with respect to moving water and or pesticide control of some sort. Because that is going to be an ongoing issue west Wile or not. And I don't think the mosquito abatement district does anything but roads and (inaudible) I don't think they get off asphalt. Steele: Jennifer calls and sets up special appointments for them to come out. Bird: They do actually get on the course. Steele: From just hearing parts of it I think they do but its not very often its more when she can try and get them out of there and work that into their schedule. It's not a once or twice a week thing or anything. Gallivan: Like every two weeks they were doing it. Butler: Something like that. Morrow: All right (inaudible). The next area is picnic area. (Inaudible). Is this by the clubhouse? Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 23 of 29 Steele: On the right hand side if you are facing it. Where the old chipping green is to the right of that. Morrow: How were those monies arrived at the 10,000 to 15,000 dollars for the picnic area? Funkhouser: I have no idea. I don't know what they have in mind with the gazebo and the barbecue and the table. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Morrow: Oh gosh he had numbers spread from 15 to 30,000. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: Give me some picture David. What do think that number ought to be? Moe: It totally depends on what you are looking at I mean you can go just off the top anywhere from 15 to I think that the one we did at Tully Park that was 35,000 dollars. (Inaudible). Roundtree: That is a pretty good size. You can probably put (inaudible). Moe: Possibly but again if you are going to do that. I'm assuming what they are trying to do is get it to where Steele: You can have a big party out there. Moe: Receptions and what not could be done out in this area so you are going to be looking for one that size. Steele: Golf tournaments, (inaudible). Roundtree: (Inaudible). Steele: Right. Butler: So why don't we guesstimate that 30. Funkhouser: 30 to 50. Moe: By the time you get your concrete and everything else 50,000. Bird: 50,000 (inaudible). Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 24 of 29 Morrow: Let's change that number then to 50,000. Lights for lake, different colors. What does that mean? Stele: Yardage. Different colors for different yardages. Bird: Oh okay. Morrow: Well again I think this is one of those things that can maybe go under personal property. New restrooms. Bird: Walt can I interject something. We've been doing pricing for restrooms in the parks and for a public restroom like you need to build, which you would have to build there. This is way way under funded I mean way way underfunded. Morrow: And are those restrooms ADA accessible restrooms? Bird: Yes they are. These would have to be to even though there are probably not any ADA people that are probably golfing but it would be in a public restroom they would have to be (inaudible). You know Walt until you knew how many square foot. I'll tell you better plan on about 100 dollars a square foot. By the time you get all your (inaudible) - Morrow: These restrooms that you are looking at. How big are they, how many stalls? Bird: They varied and they have been running around 100 to 105, 10, 15 I mean they have been blowing my mind away and I (inaudible) David Moe's when he was on there and he deals with these all the time. Morrow: So what is your opinion for this number Dave? Moe: Quite frankly I mean you could be anywhere from 75,000 to 100,000 dollars. Steele: Right. Bird: Yeah. Morrow: For abathroom - Steele: For both sides. Morrow: (Inaudible). Golf Course Committee .May 7, 2003 Page 25 of 29 Steele: Well that would cut it down and get it more into probably I would say the 50 to 75,000 dollar range but its not going to be done anywhere close to the 10 to 15. Moe: That's my next question where - Morrow: How many bathrooms Tom are they looking at doing and where are they looking at doing those bathrooms at? Funkhouser: Well one restroom goes between the eighth green and the ninth tee. There is a sewer connection and a water connection off to the right of the eighth fairway already that has to be extended across to that area. Bird: That's back in the corner there then. The southwest corner of the course. Between the eight green and the ninth tee. Moe: To me that would be poor planning. Only one more hole and you are at the clubhouse. Steele: I would say over by six. Like you know maybe in between six or seven are all right because they are par three just like the other. Funkhouser: Like I say all I know is what they talked about because the developer brought the sewer and the water in and is stubbed off there and the builder is supposed to put the sewer line across and that hasn't happened and that's all I know. Morrow: Okay let's assume that is a waste of money. Are we looking on this thing for two, you know one half way through the front nine and one half way through the back nine. Is that what the goal here is? Moe: You already got one there on the front nine. Steele: On the old nine. Bird: You already got a restroom there back on the (inaudible). Moe: Between 13 and 14. Morrow: So are we looking at maybe one more restroom then on the other nine. So what do the three of you feel comfortable with in terms of a number? Bird: I think what Creg brought up (inaudible) two for the women and two for the men (inaudible) stalls and you could have a urinal in the mens and a urinal and a toilet. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 26 of 29 Butler: This is out on the course? I (inaudible) just one stall would seem reasonable. I mean usually you got one cart coming. Steele: You can still kind of work it kind of like they have that one there. But you are still not going to decrease the cost a whole lot by doing away with one stall because you are still going to have to have the handicap accessible. That is going to be the cost. Because you are going to have to make it large enough for that wheelchair to get in there. Moe: Your stall you are going to pay about 2,000 dollars on a basic fixture. That's kind of high maybe 1,500 to 2,000 dollars. Morrow: So purposes of our numbers if you use two and two what kind of number do we use? Is that a 75,000 dollar deal assuming that water and sewer are reasonably close. Moe: Yes I would say. That's going to be the problem is where you are going to get it from where do you put this thing. Bird: I'm like Creg I think you got to go back and find -eight and nine I don't think is a good idea -waste of money. You got to go back five or six. Funkhouser: Right now they presently have porta potties behind the fourth green and everybody uses that one. We have one located on eight, people use it but not as frequently as the early one. Bird: And that fourth has got the area there. Morrow: So why don't we put this down has 75,000 plus sewer and water and then lets try to get from Gary Smith some sort of feel where we got sewer and water. You were thinking in the fourth green fifth tee area is where we think this ought to go? Moe: The problem with the fourth tee is your going to need a pump to get it back to the sewer. Bird: You are 100 percent. right. Moe: So we don't want to put it on four. We are going to have to move it over between five and six. Bird: Yeah I think you know by the green on six might be the ideal area there between the houses and stuff and I would think that - Steele: Moving the teeing area over like they have done it creates space over there to where you can do something nice. And again I think the reason why Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 27 of 29 they use it at four and five there is because that's where -its in that period there where you are needing it and by the time you get to eight you have already used it. Moe: Another thing not to belabor this issue but you have a problem over in those areas as well because the houses are much tighter in there and if I was a home owner there I wouldn't be a real happy camper looking in the bathroom out my backyard. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Moe: I have seen a bathroom outside my backyard a few times but you know and I have (inaudible). Morrow: All right so then you want me to ask about the location for by number six green or number six tee? Bird: Six tee. Morrow: Okay very good I can handle that. Okay. Final items on this list is clubhouse maintenance. I don't think it's an appropriate issue of what we are doing. Okay. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Moe: I guess what I would anticipate I realize were not going to make recommendations and what not we are just going to be giving them everything but I think its going to be necessary for Council to be able to see -well you know this is what I eat that's going to cost to do the irrigation and do the upgrades that are required but on the other hand keep in mind that the golf course is going to have to be taped to your cards and flags and maintenance and so they are going to have these costs. So we all need to keep that in mind - (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: Okay what I want to do now is go around the table real quickly and see if there is any other issues with respect to that we need to deal with in terms of this list and then we need to get to setting our next meeting and then we need to (inaudible) because the next group is going to meet at seven and I'd like to finish in five minutes. Having said that Dave any final issues that you think need to be heard? Moe: My issue is I was just going to see when he will try and get back to me in regards to this area and what not and be able to start putting something together. Berg: I'll call COMPASS Friday. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 28 of 29 Moe: Okay. Berg: And that will be my start. Morrow: Tom final things that you think we ought to deal with in terms of (inaudible)? Funkhouser: I'm fine. Morrow: Okay you are fine with that. Charlie. Roundtree: (Inaudible). Morrow: This isn't cast in stone tonight I mean we can think about until our next meeting and then we can add to that. Keith? Bird: I'm like Charlie (inaudible) sit down and determine what we feel is city obligations but I think it's a good idea to have it out on the board so we actually know when or what they are expecting. Morrow: Joann. Butler: (Inaudible). Steele: I think we've got a pretty good start. Morrow: Okay. Very good. Next issue will be our next meeting. Now we were going to go in two week increments. I don't have a bias here its whatever you guys want to do. My only bias is stay (inaudible) time frame. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: We will go with the 21St (inaudible). Okay is everybody good with the two weeks? Kind of been preferred so we are good with the 21St? (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Bird: What time? Morrow: We will discuss that next. I don't have a bias there either. Everybody is good with the 21St. Now time frame. Anybody have any strong emotions about the time. Golf Course Committee May 7, 2003 Page 29 of 29 Berg: I say just for my staff the earlier the better so they don't have to go back and forth but the other thing Walt I don't know if we just have the recording and somebody operating it. That might be sufficient for us to (inaudible). Morrow: I'd like to have one of your staff here. So that they can kind of work in conjunction with that tape and have some end notes and whatever so that we eliminate inaudibles and those kinds of things. Steele: We might be able to use Diane over at the Parks Department too. She does this quite a bit. Morrow: Six would be preferred for me. Is that good with everybody? Good with me. All right it will be six to seven thirty will be our time frame. Butler: Do you want me to see if I can get Bud Way at that meeting? Morrow: Lets get one of those folk. Lets get going on that. Butler: And how about we redo this list with the new numbers and then I can also get back to Bud and that gives him another two weeks to redo. (Inaudible discussion amongst committee members) Morrow: Okay final issues. Do you have any final issues? Bird: Mark this down for the record. We had a lawyer that didn't have any final issues. Butler: I can make up one. Moe: Motion to adjourn. Steele: Second. Morrow: Its been moved and seconded to adjourn. All in favor. Opposed? Let's get out of here. Thank you everybody for your time I appreciate it. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: WALT MORROW, CHAIRMAN / / DATE