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HomeMy WebLinkAbout04Apr06 Pre-Council MinsCITY OF MERIDIAN PRE-COUNCIL MEETING AGENDA Tuesday, April 6, 2004 at 6:00 p.m. City Council Chambers 1. Roll-call Attendance: ~ Shaun Wardle X Bill Nary Charlie Rountree ~ Keith Bird _~ Mayor Tammy de Weerd 2. Adoption of the Agenda: ~~~~u-- 3. Discussion of the Golf Course Improvements Plan: (*55 minutes) ~~, ~~~~ .~~ l~'~'`~~~ ~-ryh~I ~ ~~~~ uJ *Approximate allowable time set for agenda item may change depending on discussion. Please use the designated minutes as a guideline only. Meridian City Pre-Council Agenda -April 6, 2004 Page 1 of 1 All materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. Anyone desiring accommodation for disabilities related to documents and/or hearings please contact the City Clerk's Office at 888-4433 at least 48 hours prior to the public meeting. April 1, 2004 MERIDIAN CITY COUNCIL MEETING APPLICANT REQUEST Discussion of the Golf Course Improvements Plan AGENCY COMMENTS CITY CLERK: CITY ENGINEER: CITY PLANNING DIRECTOR: CITY ATTORNEY CITY POLICE DEPT: CITY FIRE DEPT: CITY BUILDING DEPT: CITY WATER DEPT: ~ CITY SEWER DEPT: S ~`~ ~ I v CITY PARKS DEPT: / ~ l/" MERIDIAN SCHOOL DISTRICT: ADA COUNTY HIGHWAY DISTRICT: SANITARY SERVICE COMPANY CENTRAL DISTRICT HEALTH: NAMPA MERIDIAN IRRIGATION: SETTLERS IRRIGATION: IDAHO POWER: US WEST: INTERMOUNTAIN GAS: MERIDIAN POST OFFICE: OTHER: Contacted: Date: Phone: Emciiled: Staff Initials: Materials presented at public meetings shall become property of the City of Meridian. April 6, 2004 ITEM NO. Meridian City Pre-Council Meetinct April 6, 2004 The Meridian City Pre-Council meeting was called to order at 6:00 P.M. on Tuesday, April 6, 2004 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Bill Nary, Keith Bird, Shaun Wardle and Charlie Rountree. Staff Present: Bill Nichols, Gary Smith, Anna Powell, Doug Strong, Elroy Huff, Will Berg. Others Present: Jennifer Lovan-Holloway, Jo Anne Butler, Creg Steele, Jackie Call. Item 1. Roll-call Attendance: X Bill Nary X Keith Bird X Shaun Wardle X Charlie Rountree X Mayor Tammy de Weerd Item 2. Adoption of the Agenda: Bird: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: I move we adopt the agenda as published. Rountree: Second. Nary: It's been moved and seconded to adopt the agenda as published. All those in favor say aye. ALL AYES. MOTION CARRIED. Item 3. Discussion of the Golf Course Improvements Plan: Nary: ~ Discussion of the Golf Course Improvements Plan. Council should we hear Mr. Morrow and then - or Ms. (inaudible) first? What is your preference there? Mr. Morrow is the Chair of the Committee, so maybe Mr. Morrow you wouldn't mind starting? I think we are really looking at a discussion, so - Morrow: I guess, Mr. Nary, there is no presentation on our part because we were just notified this afternoon of this talking or discussion. Obviously, we had no preparation (inaudible) so what we have presented to you in terms of the study, Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 2 of 21 we had anticipated (inaudible) on where you wanted to go on the study and so on. So, that's all I can really tell you. Nary: Well, Council what is your pleasure? Doesn't sound like - De Weerd: We set this several weeks ago. Nary: I mean this has been actually set, Mr. Morrow, for quite a while. It's been on our agenda for a couple of weeks as coming. So, I am sorry you didn't get noticed - (Inaudible discussion) Nary: Mr. Clerk did we call or send notice or how do we do that? Berg: Mr. President we did send notice out, but I don't think it was any of their instructions to do anything. It was a discussion item at the end of the December 16th Pre-Council meeting either to bring it back or start looking at a plan or discuss the improvement issues that they have brought up at that meeting with a report. I didn't note that they needed to do a presentation and I did notify them that they needed to do a presentation. Nary: Okay. Berg: If they have one that's fine. Nary: Well, Council what is your pleasure? Are people familiar enough with the report to have a discussion about that? We got the report a while back. It was in December. Mr. Rountree, I believe you were part of this committee as well. Rountree: I'll claim that, yes. Nary: I think in our packets the last couple of weeks, I think we have gotten some other information about that, but Council what is your pleasure? Rountree: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Not necessarily my pleasure, but there are a number of recommendations in the report and I don't think any of them have been acted on and there are a number of them that deal with getting this information out of folks that have particular interest in the Golf Course, such as the Homeowner's Associations, neighbors - we have gotten, I believe to our Parks and Rec people, the Men's and Women's Association and those folks. At a minimum we need to Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 3 of 21 get that stuff going, unless it happened prior to January and I don't know. I don't know that it's happened. Does it have to Jennifer? Lovan-Holloway: I am not sure - Nary: You need to come up here on the mic; otherwise we won't be able to hear anybody. Lovan-Holloway: Do I need to state my name? Nary: Please. Lovan-Holloway: Jennifer Lovan-Holloway, General Manager of Cherry Lane Golf Course. Charlie, I guess I am not sure what your question was or what kind of things you were looking at to get to people. Rountree: Well, the recommendations in the report are to get the information that the report compiled or the report itself, but the Homeowner's Association, the Men's and Women's Association and some other groups in particular to have this information so they can have a somewhat reasoned discussion amongst the community instead of just the four of us. Did that get mailed out to anybody? Do you know? Or is that something you expected the City to do and has it been done? (Inaudible discussion) Rountree: Okay. So, I am recommending at a minimum tonight that we start that ball going and get that information out. Bird: That's right. Rountree: Have you seen anything on it? Mr. Nary, if I could continue. If any of you folks know your Homeowner's Association Presidents' addresses we would like to accumulate those because they are kind of difficult to come by at times. I know one. I don't know if anybody has got a list of those amongst the Homeowners out there or not, but if we could get that that would be helpful. Jennifer if we could get - do we get a hold of the Men's and Women's Association through the clubhouse or do they have an address? Lovan-Holloway: Yes, everything is through the clubhouse for them; all their mailing and everything comes to them. Rountree: Okay. That's kind of where I wanted to start and then - I don't know what the rest of the Council wants to do with the multiple recommendations, but there are many on page 26 of the report. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 4 of 21 Nary: Mr. Strong, do you have any information from the Park's Department that you want to provide for our discussion at least? Strong: Mr. President, members of the Council the only thing that we have discussed with the Golf Course since the report was presented was the Mayor and I discussed possible future maintenance related to weed control at the Golf Course and managing that through the Department, so with that - De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess just to elaborate on that a little bit. I know about a year ago Council had a discussion with Cherry Lane Golf Course and some of the other members sitting in this room and we suggested at that time that there be a collaboration of joint use of equipment and that sort of thing. A decision was made then that kind of contradicted that. I did talk to Doug and suggested that the City do share our spraying equipment and I know that Doug had some concerns. Last year there was some training requirements and it's a little bit more complicated than most so I talked with him about even using staff to do the spraying and the Golf Course could provide the weed control spray, of course, but our staff would use the equipment and apply it. So, that was our discussion. I did talk to the clerk, he was going to get a hold of Jennifer and let her know so that this could be scheduled. I did suggest to Doug that it be brought up at today's meeting and see if there is any concerns and now would be the time to share them. Strong: Mr. President, Madame Mayor and members of the Council. Going back to last year's discussion when the shared equipment was discussed it was decided at that time not to use City equipment on (inaudible) property. That has changed, I think, with these recommendations. We do have some scheduling concerns. I think our discussion, too, related to the chemical being purchased by the Golf Course and applied our Department and trained staff because you also have to have a license to applicator for such things. Just for reference what we didn't discuss in our discussion is our applicator or machine that we use for that is currently being repaired. We have a problem with a computer panel that distributes the chemical and we are trying to get that repaired right now, so we have one piece of equipment and we don't have anything else to fall back on. And then we have our park property and if we add the Golf Course property that would be a pretty good impact to our scheduling. De Weerd: But I think the discussion needs to be had with the Golf Course and the timeframe discussed and how long it would take to spray it. I think some of these are not insurmountable. We do need to know how long it will take to repair the equipment, but then start working on working out your scheduling issues along with their scheduling timeframes and how we can best accommodate that. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 5 of 21 It just was very disconcerting to me being given Boise property to spray collaboration with our own property. that here we have City property leasing or our own. I just think that's not working in Strong: Madame Mayor and Mr. President. Elroy is prepared to address the schedule for applications tonight if you'd like, to understand it. Just in the time and gallons of chemical and so forth that it would take to cover the course and then how that would fit into doing weed control in our own parks. De Weerd: Well, I had thought maybe with Will talking to Jennifer maybe this discussion would have happened before tonight, but if we want to discuss it here that's certainly up to the Council. Rountree: Get it resolved. Bird: Let's get it done right now Tammy. Lovan-Holloway: Mayor, just to let you know too I appreciate the City coming forward with letting us trying to come up with something about using our sprayer. Our sprayer is fixed so at this time we don't need to borrow that or use that. The other thing is though I would appreciate, you know, in the future if there is something either you guys need or we need that we could come up with a solution to use both of those. I did talk to Will a little bit. The aerator that we use, we actually borrow from Warm Springs. A lot of golf courses -because it's only a piece of equipment that's used twice a year. They do share those -that part of equipment, so we do use that. The City of Boise does allow that we can also use Nampa's or Centennials or Richcrest or Centennials. So, just as - so Will did talk to me about that and so -you know, if I needed to use the sprayer I would get together with Elroy on that and work out a timeframe. De Weerd: Thank you, Jennifer. I would hope that Council would concur with us, but I think sharing of equipment works for all of us and as a taxpayer I guess that is my expectation. Rountree: You need a motion? De Weerd: I don't think - I only want to hear if you do not agree with that. Rountree: Oh, okay. Nary: I guess one of the things - I think part of our discussion tonight, I mean, we have received a pretty lengthy report with a lot of recommendations and I think that's all we have, I mean that's all we got to this point. I agree with Mr. Rountree, I think there needs to be more players to have some discussions about the recommendations from the report, but I guess Council what is everyone's thoughts as to how do we actually affect any of the recommendations that are in Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 6 of 21 there. Some of the things are things we could directly affect and some of them are going to take some group dynamics to accomplish some of these things. I would envision that a member of the City, as well as maybe a Council member is going to have to help steer that a little bit to get to an end. I mean, otherwise we are going to just have meetings and invite folks and then we are going to just sit around and figure out how we are going to do something and that's not going to work. That's my thoughts. I don't know what everyone else is thinking as to how do we actually affect some of these recommendations or decide when and how priority-wise these things can get accomplished. Bird: Oh, go ahead Charlie. Rountree: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: It is a mighty big elephant, but we have got to start taking some bites out of this thing. I think the first one is the perennial issue of weeds and if we can work that out with the Golf Course folks using our equipment and some of their resources and get the timing squared away on that, I think that's the first step and get rid of the dandelions and geranium and everything else that's out there or start a program that will do that and I think that will help improve, at least the looks of the Golf Course. There are some other pretty meaty issues I think that - and we have a lot of legal folks to help us through some of this stuff because, I read the agreement and it says one thing one time and I read it the next time and it says something to me that's different the next time. I think one of the single biggest issues that I hear a lot of is about maintenance of the Golf Course and some kind of a standard for the Golf Course and what I have concluded in the reading I have done both on the Committee and (inaudible) in trying to think about is that it seems to me that there is a process identified in the agreement on how to establish a standard. It is going to take both parties to come to that agreement. It isn't something that I don't believe that the City can set, nor is it something that Cherry Lane can set, but it seems to me that it's to be done mutually and agreed to mutually and that then sets the standard from that point forward how maintenance and management of the Golf Course is to be done. To my recollection in reading all of this stuff that process never was completed. Walt's the historian that we have here on that. I don't know that it was ever done. It seems to me that that's one of the first things that we need to do as a group and maybe Joanne can refresh our minds on that particular piece, but my question is if it's been done in the past then some of us are not living up to it. If it hasn't been done in the past, is that something the City is going to agree to sit down and work with Cherry Lane and if they are going to agree to sit down where we can work out what the standard is; what the community standard is because we do not know what the community standard is. We have a process for determining. I think we need that before we can go forward with any kind of action on most of the recommendations that could potentially require some Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 7 of 21 budget work on our part if, in fact, that's the choice of the City and/or action that the Golf Course folks are going to have to take. Butler: Thank you. Jo Ann Butler. 251 East Front Street. Thank you for considering the Golf Course's Committee report, which we did spend as you know, Councilman Rountree, spent a lot of time on and trying to take those bites out and I appreciate the discussion about equipment and so on because each one of those little things do help a great deal and thank Elroy and the Park's Department for helping with that as well. One of the recommendations was that we share the report with the Homeowner's Association and the various associations to get their input as well. That's one of about a dozen recommendations that was made and following on also what Councilman Nary says is how do we affect that. What the Golf Course Committee had really come to grips with was we took a look at all those past documents and said yes we need to come to some kind of understanding of what a community standard is. We invited the USGA in and thank the City and their predecessors for helping us to do that and the USGA said is that the Committee said we almost can't get to that point because the Golf Course is in such need of infrastructure improvements after a 30 year life span of some of those improvements. Some of those improvements that were not necessarily the best when they were originally put in that we ought to sit down and to bite away at that; take a look with legal counsel, financial consultants within the City, your departments how possibly can we attack that infrastructure issue? Because without that even if we set standards as the USGA says in it's report that's an appendix to this we are not going to get very far and so that's where, I think, the -Walt will take my foot out of my mouth if I say the wrong thing, but I think that's where the Committee was going to in terms of -this is after distilling all of this information, all of these things or bites out of it, but that's the biggest bite and if the City possibly - a really specific work session on just that topic, I think, is what many members of the Committee think is probably the next step with staff, financial, legal and with members of either the Council or people that they delegate to sit down and talk about and brainstorm on just those very specific issues. So, I think that's where we think the next step should go. Is that a fair synopsis? (Inaudible response) Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: This is not necessarily a question for you Jo Anne, so. It's seems to me that we talked about standards and we need to set a standard. I think in the recommendations, this report sets out a group of stakeholders who could help us make those recommendations and so I agree with Councilman Rountree in the sense that we need to get this document out to each of those groups so that they can share that with their individual members. So, I agree with that. As far as a Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 8 of 21 standard setting, I would envision some sort of a chance for all those groups to comment, not only on the recommendations, but on the full report in some sort of an organized fashion with individual representatives from the Homeowner's Association, Men's and Ladies Association and from all of those stakeholders to comment to the Council as far as standards. Now, the larger issue obviously is the infrastructure in the sense that - and I am not sure how to tackle that to be honest with you, but I do agree that we need to - to set community standards, think we have outlined the individual's that are affected in that community. De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I guess I would agree this needs to get out to the surrounding homeowner's associations. In fact, that was a recommendation when we formed the Committee is that they would have representation on this and we did have Charlie and David Moe, but those were the only two neighbors on the whole Committee and I was disappointed personally in having that. It does need to get out there, but I agree with Councilman Rountree. We need to start working on the standards and reading the lease, some of the minutes, this report. Everyone knew what we were entering into when we entered into the lease. They knew that it was under funded and everyone moved forward. They knew that even when they went into the (inaudible) and they went forward. We need to set a standard and we need to start setting goals to that. I have a concern that as we share this with the homeowner's, they think that this is what the City is saying we need to do because I don't think all of us sitting up here agree with what's in this document. So, working on those standards and getting someone with unbiased feelings on this and that may be difficult, but you know people from the surrounding neighborhoods, people from the community at large, people with a stake in this and also experts that know about this thing. We did get a report from -that we have to start building on, but I think we all went into this without blinders on and now we just need to sit down, get a work schedule, set standards and move forward. I know from talking to all of our Council members there is concerns about this report and I just want to get it out to the neighbors, but with the understanding that this is not endorsed by the City at this point and that there is still a lot of work to do and those are setting the standards and in setting those how we can maybe set higher standards with certain steps in place. But, we have got to start somewhere and spinning our wheels is not going to get us anywhere. Bird: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Bird. Bird: I believe that and I agree with everything that has been said so far along the line, but I also believe that the main thing that we need to look at is not only Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 9 of 21 the standards, but who is going to be responsible for doing what. Is it all the City's place or is it a combination? Each one of us has got our own thoughts on that too, I can guarantee you that. I think that has to come along as well as the standard. We have got to look at the course and the course is never going to play the rounds that Centennial, Ridgecrest, Warm Springs or anything like that, you know. But, we do need to set a standard and keep it up to that standard of what this community expects out that investment out there. We have standards for our parks the same as (inaudible) do and we have got to have a standard for our golf course and it has got to be maintained to that, whether it's USGA or what, I don't know. Then we have got to figure out, I believe, most important thing is that we figure out who is responsible for what. Because it is budgetary affect for the City. You have got some major problems out there. I am sorry to see that the second nine didn't get done much better than the first nine. I think too much in the past -this is my own personal opinion -has been done by one or two people and not by the whole involvement of everybody. I think one or two people went out there and decided to do this or that and wound up getting this and that and that's my thoughts, but we need to get on it. We don't need to be a year from here now still talking about it. Nary: I think we all agree that there needs to be a lot more work done. I guess my original question is still the same. How do we want to do that? It appears to me and maybe that's something that some other folks here if there is some thoughts they have as to how they think because nothing happens unless somebody spearheads this to go forward, otherwise we will just have meetings like this. Mr. Wardle? Wardle: Mr. President I guess in just my thought that when I said we get this report out. One of the things that -just to kind of paint a picture of how that meeting would look; we send the report to the individual groups. We also noticed that we are going to have a special meeting to discuss golf course standards and we allot those stakeholders an individual amount of time to discuss those standards in a public hearing setting. I am not sure that-the public itself has had an opportunity to comment publicly on the standards. Mr. Steele are you going to --? Steele: Yeah, I would just like to - Creg Steele for the record. 2021 NW 8t". I think that we have a lot of direction that we can already go in. In one, if you ask the people who live around the golf course what their expectations are, they want no weeds and they want to see it green. If you ask the players, that's a whole different set of standards that we have to try and hit. So, I think that if we have more and more meetings - if we bring the homeowner's together we already know what their answers are. So, in some ways we can save ourselves time by trying pull these different groups together. I think we know, kind of where we want to go; now we just have to pull to keep people together to make it happen. can guarantee you the homeowner's aren't going to say anything different. We have heard that. So just kind of all I wanted to say was I think we have the Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 10 of 21 direction, I think we have the place to go. I don't think, necessarily having more meetings with homeowner's or that is going to solve anything. De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: I do think we all know what the homeowner's are going to say, but they are also the one's that pay the impact fee and you know they are also the one's who would like to be included and they are never asked. That can be our first fallacy is not to involve the homeowner's and assume that we already know what they are going to say. Yeah, there are issues and yeah I agree you, I think mainly people would like to see it weed-free and green. No dry spots and no wet spots and so that's the standard they are looking at and where you find then the users of that, but I can tell you that you have people living out there who want to be users, but they don't feel a part of that golf course community because they are not asked and they are not included. That's the feedback I got and believe me I knocked on every one of those doors and so I had plenty of opportunity because they all know I live out there. Steele: I am not disagreeing with that at all. I just think pretty much for the most part -and get some of them involved in going forward - but I do think we have a lot of answers and this is just my opinion, this isn't coming from the committee here or anything else. I think we have a lot of those answers and if we put together -another group to go out over what their expectations are, you know, I think we kind of know expectations. I think put them together. Ask them to get involved in what those standards should be, but not necessarily what they think. I guess it's just splitting hairs a little bit, but I think it will help this process move forward a little bit quicker and get some of this behind us. De Weerd: Well, we don't want to have just a gripe session. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: One of the things, even though the City Council is not endorsing the recommendations of this committee, I think it's a good place to start and I think allowing those groups, those stakeholders to comment on the specifics of this report is a good place to start. I think that if we can hold the meeting where we have a lot of time for each of those groups to be represented then we can hear rather than just a gripe session we can hear some concerted opinions of what those individuals would like to see happen. So, I think the report is an excellent place to begin. Rountree: Mr. President. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 11 of 21 Nary: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: Maybe I erred in bringing up the subject, but it seems to me and I will go back to what I said. We have in place a process to establish a standard. It's in the agreement between us and Cherry Lane. It says and this is in the attachment between the City of Meridian and New Pacific, which is an attachment to the lease: "Furthermore, the City agrees at no cost to the grantor (which would have been New Pacific) that such management and maintenance of the property shall be at the standard of quality consistent with similar public municipal golf courses throughout the country. In that regard, the City will cooperate with some individual golf agency or association to be agreed upon by the parties, City and New Pacific, City and Cherry Lane Recreation." I am practicing law here and if I am doing it wrong tell me. Because I don't want to profess to be a liar, God forbid. Anyway, "in that regard the City will cooperate with some individual golf agency association to be agreed upon by the parties for the inspection and review of the management and maintenance of the golf course and to make certain recommendations to issue that such affirmation standards of quality is met." Then it goes on talking about annual, etc. To me that establishes that the cooperators need to sit down and get this individual or golf agency or association that can speak to what a public municipal golf course quality is. The City and Cherry Lane agree to what that standard is then we have something by which we can establish what it is we are going to move to. Right now what we have, apparently, is the standard. I don't know how else to characterize it. I don't know if this process had ever been done. I don't think it has. I am not saying this to not include the public in the process. They very much need to be included in the process, but it seems to me, contractually or by lease we have this piece that we should go through. Butler: Jo Anne Butler again. I agree with Councilman Rountree. The public absolutely needs to be brought into the process, which is why that was one of the recommendations. That was why we met with the City and about 50 people, think, last year in December or January when we set up the golf course committee. We had an awful lot of past public elected officials and other public members involved to set up this committee based on the fact that we had come to this City, Cherry Lane the summer before and said yes in that lease it calls for an annual inspection and the public needs to understand that that called for an annual inspection and that had never been done. That annual inspection was to ensure that whatever standards were developed were consistently maintained. So because we -the City because the City paid for the USGA report, which in an essence set the standards. It said to the City these are the things that are missing. These are the things that now after a 30-year life span are no longer working properly. These are the things that we can tell were installed improperly. Not by the City, not by Cherry Lane, but unfortunately by people that had made promises (inaudible) to the City that they would install them in a certain way and they did not. Unfortunately that's a burden that the City has to bear with its Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 12 of 21 property. It's a city that Cherry Lane's had to bear and they have with no assistance from the City financially taken that infrastructure and made it the best it could possibly make it over the years. So, with this USGA report it absolutely kind of cuts to the quick; here is the things that we have seen out in that report. We have walked it; we know what's missing. Let's cut to the chase; let's decide how we go forward. I have to say that I appreciate the work that this Council did. Some of you not in the positions that you were and came to those meetings last December, January set this committee. A lot of work has gone into this and I think if there is any member of the public out there sitting in this audience or has heard about this needs to get this committee report so they know how much work this City and this committee did already. I think that with that more information from those members of the public is absolutely necessary, but they need to understand we can take some bigger bites out of this more quickly for the benefit of the City and the playing public. So, I would - as a member of that committee that sat there for the last year, I would strongly suggest that we do have very pointed workshops on how to do the financing, how to attack the financial issues that face the City that, I think, have been laid out very succinctly in the USGA report so that the City and it's public members -members of the public can feel very comfortable about where you are going. I don't -personally, if I heard that we were going to do again what we have done for the last year, I think the City is ill-served by that and you will spend another year and not be further down the road and so I would hope that it's not just another committee that frankly, I can't imagine that it would get that much further down the road and that's my opinion. Rountree: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I guess I will try a third time and I will just speak frank. The committee did the work of trying to identify the issues at the golf course; didn't specifically set it as a standard, but the kinds of things the golf course ought to obtain. That was the committee's sense and that committee was working for the City. The City now has to get off their rump, look at the report and say is that a standard we want? If not, we need to sit down with either the committee or the golf course and say no this isn't what we want. We want something more. We want something less, but we want something. Now, we have got the report. I think the action is on our side of the bench. I can be more blunt, but I am not going to be. We have a lot of information. I sat with that group and wasn't the most active participant, but did participate. They did do a lot of work. They do have the golf agency and/or an association information as talked about in this agreement, but we do not have both parties sitting down and talking about it. We need to sit down and figure out what we want to do and then we need to sit down with the folks that have the lease with the City and come to an agreement that that's what the standard is going to be. Now, in order for us to do that, do we need a public piece to this to augment what the committee did? I don't disagree with that at all. I think that is done by getting information that's been created so far to the Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 13 of 21 homeowner's associations, to the people who play golf out there and anybody else in the community who is interested in the community asset. It's not just an asset to the neighbors; it's an asset to the community. If we need to do that I would say that we probably ought to do that. Let's get the process going. Let's get the feedback back. Let's work through this spring and maybe have something in place this summer that both parties can agree that this is the standard. Then we do the kinds of things that Councilman Bird talks about. Who is going to be responsible? Which gets to the financial plan. Is the City going to bear all of this? I don't think so. Do we need to get volunteers? Do we need to get donations? Do we need to get grants? I think we need to get all of those, but we need to get them to accomplish the standard that we have agreed to. Nary: I don't play golf and I am not a stakeholder and I don't live out there or any of those things, but I guess the one part about this that I guess I disagree a little bit and I really mean a little bit, but I think we have a report that gives us some very particular recommendations on improvement of the quality of the course. We had a study that we paid for and I don't remember what it cost, but a study that we paid for with USGA to give us a standard that they felt was appropriate for municipal course. After that standard was suggested by them, we had this committee. The committee spent a long time (inaudible) over the report with a bunch of recommendations. I guess to me I don't think we formally, probably done as you suggested, Councilman Rountree as what the lease says, but I certainly think we have a lot of information that I hate to spend a lot more time studying it, which is probably one of the things as government we get criticized a lot for studying stuff, so people just do it themselves and because no matter what recommendations we get, whether we adopt the recommendations that were suggested by the committee, whether we meet the standard that is suggested by the USGA, whether we think it's something different; at the end of the day it's kind of like Mr. Bird said, who is going to pay for it? That's really -- from where we sit and for what we do that is probably the number one thing we have to deal with is who is going to pay for it and if we don't do it before July, we are not going to pay for it because we won't have it in our budget to do anything for it. So, I think we need to speed it up and I think we need to have a working group and the primary portions of this work group is the City and Cherry Lane Golf Course. I think we need to do as you suggested and providing notice to all the other people who have a part and have a stake in it whether it's the associations, whether it's the homeowners and all that so that they can participate in the discussion. But, the real issues is these recommendations that were made, we can agree with them or disagree with them. We can choose to pay for them or choose not to pay for them. We need to figure out between the two people who primarily are going to have to drive how it gets done, whether it's the City's dime, whether it's Cherry Lane's money, whether it's some other method that they want to partner together to get to the funds to be able to do these things, but I don't think that we want to just spend the time as I think you were suggesting of trying to get these standards. I think we have to compress this time a little quicker. We do need a working group to do it. We as a group obviously we spent 45 minutes and we Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 14 of 21 don't have anything yet -can't do it just us. We need someone and whether it's from the City staff or from this Council or both to spearhead that process with Cherry Lane in making sure some of the mechanics have to get done. Who is going to copy the reports and make sure they get mailed? I think Mr. Berg knows the answer to that. Who is going to make sure that we have a place to meet to talk about it? Who is going to run that meeting to make sure we stay on task as to what are we doing? We are going to expect the people to come to the meeting, to have read the USGA report, to have read the recommendations and give their input as to what do we do with all this information? Are we going to prioritize? What can we do first? What needs to be done? What would we like to get done? How much is all of those things going to cost? How much of these things are the City's responsibility? How much are Cherry Lane's responsibility? How much of it is somebody else's? If it is something that is a first priority then we need to determine that by a group and then that group is going to have to report back to us because we have to put it in our budget if we are going to do that. We don't have to agree with it and we may or may not agree with it, but that's the only way mechanically it gets done. So, I guess I am not totally disagreeing with what you are saying that we need to do that, but I am just saying that we need to do that a little bit quicker and we are going to have to compress it fairly quickly, but Imean -bottom line I am looking for a volunteer. Who wants to spearhead that so we can get this done? I can't because I don't have the time to be that person to get that going, but I think in my mind that's how we have got to do it so that we can at least before July comes and we are going to have a budget hearing that we have some idea of what we can do, what's the long range plan and how do we get this done over one year, two years, three years, five years whatever. And we need somebody and we are going to obviously need the assistance of City staff and the Park's Department to participate, finance, legal and the like to participate in those things, but as we have all seen. Unless it's the Mayor or one of the four of us pushing the boat up the hill, won't get there. Rountree: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Rountree. Rountree: I concur. The difference between you and I you are process driven and I just want to get it done. Nary: I want to get it done too. Rountree: My recommendation for a volunteer and I am not raising my hand is that this certainly is a component of our Park's and Recreation piece of the City. If there is a Councilman that has that as a liaison and has that group under their wing relying on the staff of Park's and Recreation folks and I believe there is one, I would - I am just suggesting that as a possibility - Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 15 of 21 Nary: -- yeah, if we just had somebody like that. Rountree: Yeah, somebody like that.. The other comment is and this is some easier stuff as it deals with the golf course -before we run out of time and we talk some of this other stuff to death is there is some ordinance requirements that need to be taken care of on the golf course. More and more we are seeing the golf course used as a bike path, as a baby stroller path, as a dog walking facility, as a soccer field, as a baseball field for three and four and five year olds to play golf on, flying airplanes and those kinds of things. I don't say this to be mean, but we in Cherry Lane have got some liability issues that we are going to have to - or that ICRMP is going to deal with one of these days. So, we need to get after that trespass word that's on the golf course and that's something that we can do quickly, I believe. So, I am done. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: Mr. President it appears that I have been pointed out as having the ability and potentially the skills set to bring something back to the Council. While I do have limited time, I will suggest that if I were to do this I need a couple different things. First off, Ineed - (Tape turned over) Wardle: -- (inaudible) brought back to the Council. So, I want to hear it from a budget standpoint when that needs to happen. I think some of the other things that need to happen is we need to designate what exactly I as a volunteer of the City Council would be bringing back as information. We have a lot of information here. What do we need specifically to make a decision? Let's start with a date. De Weerd: June first. Wardle: June first. Nary: I guess I will speak first and if anyone else has any other - I guess some guidelines for this discussion group to work from. I think, as I stated, I think between the USGA report, the recommendations from the Golf Course committee. Again, this working group, I think, between the City, Cherry Lane and at least providing notice to the other folks to participate -the number one thing is going to be needed is the priority list of what needs to be done. What is immediate and what is long range? And obviously the costs that go with that. Again, I agree with Mr. Rountree. I don't necessarily believe, at least at this point, that the City is responsible for footing the entire bill for anything necessarily. This is a partnership that we are trying to get the same common goal. Playable, usable golf course in our community. So, I think it's the priority list and the costs and then some discussion and obviously recommendation of Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 16 of 21 what the City can do verses whether it's Cherry Lane, whether it's some other source or whether it's something else I think is where you start. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: And in that sense, certainly in my discussion since we are talking about responsibility, Iwould feel more comfortable having a representative from the City Attorney's Office, at least within those discussions. I see some heads nods and that's available. Are we comfortable as a council and Mayor with June first? Is that pushing things too close? De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Most of our budgets all have to be team needs to start working on prioritizing it. working with, that is probably really stretching pushing it. De Weerd: Mr. President. Nary: Madame Mayor. in by a month prior to that. The If they don't know what they are it. So, yes, June first is already De Weerd: I guess I think indeed Shaun will need to have some staff support. I would like to see our Park's Department. I have been reading the Association of Idaho Cities monthly newsletter and you see in their grants that have been obtained from golf courses for irrigation improvements. Iwould like to see if you could do some research on that and see what communities in the state and maybe AIC has that information, but -who have received grants for irrigation improvements to their golf courses. I think that would be beneficial for our Council liaison to work with his group on as well. And maybe even have Diane to or have some clerical support in helping you pull together things or call meetings and that sort of thing. Nary: Ma'am you are welcome to come up here. It's open mic night, so feel free. Call: My name is Jackie Call and I am Secretary Treasurer of Cherry Lane Village Homeowner's Association and it's probably the third subdivision- developed way back 20 years ago. One thing as I was listening tonight that I would recommend if you send a copy of the report to the subdivisions that you do so with a letter either telling us ignore this it's just information or if you are asking for something back from us so that we just don't get a document and then wonder what do we do with it. If you could just provide us with what it is you Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 17 of 21 would like at least for the homeowners to do with that or what your plans are to do with the report would be valuable information for us. Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Mr. Wardle. Wardle: Again - oh, Mr. Nichols - since I am volunteering here I am starting to set some direction out and certainly while I don't think this needs to become a task force I think having some comment in written form from those homeowner's groups that would care to provide some would be important and could be compiled potentially at - and I know we are loading a lot of work on the Park's staff here, but I am just trying to find a point of reference for this group, so - could come into the Park's Department with -when those groups are -excuse me well -when this report comes out to have that come in no later than at least 20 days before I am due to report on the first of June. But, we can work that out. Nary: Yes. One other suggestion I guess I would make. Between the golf course committee report and the USGA report, I think we are talking well over 100 pages of a document and I do hate to send those to folks who aren't interested or don't care or aren't really wanting to participate and Iguess - Wardle: Mr. President. Nary: Oh, I am sorry. Mr. Nichols go ahead. Nichols: President Nary and members of the Council, Mayor. Just a couple of ideas here. First of all the thing that people really need to see is just the USGA Turf Advisory Surface Report and the Recommendation and that's not that many pages. All the attachments about golf cart paths and those sorts of things are interesting, but I am not sure that they are critical for what you want to do. Secondly, it's a few enough pages that it could be posted on the City's website and a link provided to those homeowner's associations put out in a newsletter so that anybody interested could then link to it and read it online instead of having to make copies available to everybody. Then I think maybe the next thing would be for Council liaison, since we are running out of time here tonight on this issue to report back to you next week what is timetable, what is process and so forth and Parks and I and he can visit this week and come up with something so that -and the Cherry Lane folks so that we get things moving. Nary: Thank you Mr. Nichols. As Councilman Rountree said I love process, so that's great. But, I think it at least gets us on the track and I think we need to be on the track here and I - Is there anyone before - we are almost done. It sounds to me like what I am hearing - if this is all right, Mr. Wardle, I did hear the word volunteer -that either by next week we would have just a brief report on how this is going to facilitate and get it done between the Mayor's Office and Mr. Wardle Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 18 of 21 and maybe with the City attorney's assistance we can get a letter put out to these homeowner's associations with at least minimal information if they want more information. If they want more information, if they want the whole golf course committee report they can come get a ,copy of it. I mean, that's not a problem. I just hate to mail out. If I am a homeowner's association president and I get a big thick packet that has got a 100-page report in it, I may or may not read it. If it matters to me, I will go get it and I will read it if it's going to matter to my association. We have a link on our webpage through the Mayor -she can help accomplish that and help get that done in the next week or so, so there is an opportunity to find out the information. I think we can get a little further down the road than we were. There is a lot of folks that are here tonight that didn't get up to talk and if you want to, if it's something you want us to know before we move off of this, please feel free. I know this is a frustrating subject sometimes for folks, so I don't want you to leave anymore frustrated than when you came. So, if you have something you would like to provide us, please feel free to get up. If you think we have missed the boat or you think there is something we are forgetting, now is your opportunity. We also are going to talk about this a lot more, but if you came and you would like to provide us with something, please feel free to do that. Mr. Wardle. Wardle: Mr. President I will commit to bring a game plan back next week and also commit to move this forward and in the infancy of my tenure on this Council proceed to make or break my career here so I will - Nary: Four years is a long time. Wardle: I will bring something back and we will move something forward and for everyone in the public we will have public comment written or somehow, but will have something to the Council by June first. Nary: Ms. Holloway. Lovan-Holloway: Jennifer Lovan-Holloway for the record. Again, not necessarily with the golf course committee, but lalso - it was brought up again about the ordinance. We are trying to have signs made. I think Jo Anne is talking to Mr. Nichols today about the present ordinance that we have that maybe that falls under that. Nichols: Madame Mayor, President and members of the Council. Need to talk to Felice, but the Course is leased and the tenant has the ability to, I believe, to call and site someone for trespassing. It may be a matter of education of those who are around the Course that they can't play on it, they can't run across it, can't push strollers across it and so forth. If they hadn't paid a green's fee they had no business being there because the property has been leased. I haven't had a chance to check with the Police Chief or the prosecutors, but if the existing trespassing code is adequate then perhaps by posting some signs, doing some Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 19 of 21 information to the neighbors and so forth we might get asked some of those issues so the safety hazards are eliminated. Lovan-Holloway: Mayor and Council my biggest concern on that is not so much that - I can call the Police Department and I can press charges - my biggest issue is there again we go back to it's City property. They have come up and said well, you know, it's City property and we can be out there, we paid our impact fees, which gives us a right to be out there. It doesn't, but this is also educating and we have to go through this process every time and my biggest concern is especially number three. We are going to have a child killed out there and I don't want to see that happen. Nary: Ms. Holloway, one thing I can commit to and talk to the Police Chief as well as Mr. Nichols and our prosecutors -you know, I don't think we have to invent the wheel here. This is not the only municipal golf course in the United States. I am sure they have a lot of these exact same issues and I don't think it's probably that difficult. But, the problem with the state trespass statute from my perspective is it requires posting at all entrances (inaudible) and it requires posting within a number of feet and sometimes that's very problematic. Otherwise you have to evict every person each time. I think that's what you are talking about. That only works for the moment. That doesn't also work for tomorrow very well. So, it does make it kind of troubling. I don't think we can fix the problem today, but I think we can commit to at least trying to evaluate and figure out if there is a better way to do that. I think that is kind of what Mr. Nichols is saying as well. Is our ordinance adequate? Do we need to amend our city ordinance to address the golf course specifically as leased property and I don't think - I guess we haven't had enough time to sort of digest that idea today, but I think that we can commit that we will - we will keep that on our front burner so we can get this done in a shorter period of time like Mr. Rountree is saying rather than longer. I think that's something that we can actually do a little quicker even though we are the government, we can generally do that a little faster than other things. Lovan-Holloway: Mr. Nary, do we have a time frame for that because I have been trying to push this for three years now? I have come before Council - Nary: Less than that. Lovan-Holloway: Thank you. Nary: I guess what I can do is at least commit that we can continue to figure out what's the best way to do that and I don't know that I can tell you really much quicker than a month. Lovan-Holloway: Okay. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 20 of 21 Nary: We can at least figure out if there is someway better than what we have. Lovan-Holloway: Great. A month is better than three years, I appreciate that thank you. Nary: I don't know that we will change it, I'm just saying that I think within a month we can figure out what's best for what we think we can do. Lovan-Holloway: Great and then I can go forward with our signs and how we need to do that too. Nary: I wouldn't print them. Lovan-Holloway: I mean afterwards, I mean if we haven't then we can wait and like I said and then at least we will know on how to go forward with those signs. Nary: Madame Mayor. De Weerd: Jennifer, have you talked to some of the - we have a lot of residential golf courses throughout the Valley and have you talked with them about how they deal with it? Lovan-Holloway: Most of them do not have subdivisions that run through them. mean that's the basic part of it. Eagle Hills, Warm Springs does have some type of policy. They had an accident out there that did enforce that policy. I don't know what Indian Lakes does, so I can't answer that. De Weerd: -- I think that would be very helpful - Lovan-Holloway: I know McCall's does a whole different broader issue because they have some other items that they do, but I do know that theirs is. I have given that to the City Clerk and I think Keith and Mr. Nichols have that. De Weerd: But that's a city owned golf course. Lovan-Holloway: Yeah, but it also had a private lease on it for a number of years. Up until two years ago it had a private lease. Nary: What I would ask you to though is if there are other contacts or other information that you could provide to us that would be helpful because the other golf course context is going to be you more than us. Lovan-Holloway: I would be more than happy to. Who would you like me to get this information to? Nary: Mr. Nichols, right now. Meridian City Pre-Council Meeting Apri16, 2004 Page 21 of 21 De Weerd: Through the City Clerk's. You can get it to Will. Lovan-Holloway: I can do that, thank you. Nary: Anyone else? Well, I think we have at least have a little bit of a game plan and we will have a little bit more information from Mr. Wardle next week. Council is there anything else on this issue? Bird: I have nothing. Nary: That's the conclusion of our Pre-Council agenda. Bird: I move we adjourn. Wardle: Second. Nary: It's been moved and seconded to adjourn our Pre-Council meeting. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:06 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: TAMMY DE WEERD, MAYOR / / DATE APPROVED ATTESTED: WILLIAM G. BERG, JR., CITY CLERK