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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMay 27, 2003 City CouncilMeridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 48 of 68 Corrie: Okay. Motion has been made and seconded, any further discussion? Roll call vote, Mr. Berg. Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea. Corrie: All ayes. Motion is approved. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 20: Public Hearing: CUP 03-015 Request for a Conditional Use Permit to add a heliport with office and fueling -future landing pad and hanger on southeast corner of property in an L-O zone for St. Luke's Meridian Medical Center by St. Luke's Regional Medical Center -east of South Eagle Road and north of I-84: Corrie: Item No. 20. This is a Public Hearing, CUP 03-015, request for a Conditional Use Permit to add a heliport with office and fueling, future landing pad and hangar on the southeast corner of the property in an L-O zone for St. Luke's Meridian Medical Center by St. Luke's Regional Medical Center. So, at this time I will open the Public Hearing on Item No. 20, CUP, and staff comments first. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, St. Luke's has recently leased a helicopter to -- a second helicopter for their Boise site. When that helicopter shows up at their Boise site, they have to get the one that's there out someplace else and right now they have been taking it to someplace where they can fuel it, but what they are proposing to do is come -- bring that -- excuse me. I didn't point out where St. Luke's was. I think you know where it is. The facility is located -- or will be located -- where is my arrow? There it is, down in t he corner of the -- southeast corner of the p roperty. They are proposing to construct a facility there to accommodate it. It would be a manufactured building with a wainscoting on it and -- it doesn't show the overall site. I'm sorry. It's a small portion of the site and the driveway here connects to the Touchmark facilities and, then, you would have the office here and the heliport here. The access would be -- eventually come through here and, then, come down, but for now it will be coming through the Touchmark facility. When that road eventually connects they will have direct access. The site is well located in that the helicopters will come over the freeway, rather than over a residential neighborhood. There was some discussion at Planning and Zoning Commission about what if they took off over Montvue. The FAA does not allow that, so those people would have recourse through that. The clear intent is that they would be coming in over the freeway and make use of that as a buffer to those residential neighborhoods. The area would also have a refueling station for the helicopters. There was a requirement that they submit a revised Landscape Plan and they have accommodated that. The revised Landscape Plan is dated 5114/03. Just to point out a couple of perhaps unusual conditions of approval. There is one that the refueling f acility s hall not b e for commercial s ales a nd t hat a future h angar s tructure may be built at this location without further Conditional Use Permit approval if located on Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2D03 Page 49 of 68 site on the submitted Site Plan. And on that there really wasn't much discussion at the P&Z, so that will suffice for staff testimony at this point. Corrie: Questions? Comments? Bird: I have none. Corrie: Is the applicant here this evening? Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Hall: Yes, sir. Corrie: Name and address, please. Hall: Mr. Mayor and Council Members, my name is Jeff Hall, I'm the director of architecture and construction services for St. Luke's. We are familiar with the staff report and the conditions, the other agency comments, and have no concerns with any of those. We are here and able to answer any questions you would have. Corrie: Okay, any questions at this time? Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Mr. Hall, I know there aren't homes there right now for the Meadow Lake Village, but I guess I'm not clear as to how close this is to where the homes are going to be. Hall: Mr. Mayor and Councilman Nary, the homes are generally north and east of here. The southwest corner of their site, which would be closest to our southeast corner where we are proposing this, is planned for a maintenance facility and storage yard on the last master plan we have seen from our neighbors at Touchmark, now called Meadow Lake Village. They are familiar with this proposal and have no concerns. As staff pointed out, they are granting us access on their private road to get to the site. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor`? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: In looking at the P&Z minutes, you state that this helicopter is not necessary for the Meridian hospital, so why is it going -- why are you requesting it to be on this site? Hall: Mr. Mayor and Councilwoman de Weerd, we are relatively new to the helicopter ambulance b usiness and o ur a ccommodations we h ave a t o ur B oise I ocation o n t he roof-top, what we call our East Tower, was never designed to house a helicopter full Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 50 of 68 time. We don't have housing accommodations for the crew. We don't have refueling capabilities. It is merely a heliport for helicopters to bring patients to our hospital there andlor o n o ccasion f o r emove t hem s omewhere a Ise. S o, t his a ccommodation i s t o provide appropriate housing for the crew, as well as a place to park the helicopter in between its travels. De Weerd: Isn't there a better place a little bit further out? You know, I know this is kind of far out on the Meridian city boundaries, but it's still kind of centrally located on where you would house it. I guess when I saw the application I was anticipating that it was more to work into the long term master plan of providing that sort of service to the Meridian hospital and after reading it as well it states that that would be more top of the building than right there. So, I guess I question why there -- why there? Hall: Good question. We studied many sites on many properties owned throughout the valley and this was the one site that made the best criteria of getting away from roof tops, having available landing places. It's preferable to land on the ground than up in the air, so we looked at many elevated opportunities on roof tops in Boise and we either didn't have the structural capacity on those roof tops or we had other encumbrances, trees, streetlights, power lines, such and so after a pretty extensive study, this was decided to be the most effective -- excuse me -- also the least disruptive location of all the properties we had. This can provide ambulance or ambulance services at the Meridian site. Our long-term plan for this campus is the most recently completed phase three project, which is the actual hospital beds and surgery rooms, in the long-term, will mirror or clip itself and double in size to the east of the current phase three. At that point in time will provide the structural capacity -- will propose to provide the structural capacity on the roof top, so we can land a helicopter on the hospital at that point in time to pick up or transport patients as well. We don't have the structural capacity on the roofs we have at our Meridian campus today. De Weerd: How much noise will they make? We had a Black Hawk land at the school a couple weeks ago, flew over our roof tops and you definitely knew the presence of that and distance is probably similar from our house to where that helicopter landed. I couldn't imagine listening to how often each day, you know, what kind of use would this have and that sort of thing. Hall: I have some people here that could probably answer the question more accurately than I can. We are projecting about 300 trips per year for the first year, we haven't completed our first year in business, and the longer term projections are about 400 flights per year. We do have the director of Air St. Luke's with us, as well as one of our pilots who could probably better speak to the type of helicopter noise and such, if you like. De Weerd: Okay. Nary: I have a question for -- Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 51 of 68 Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: What's your -- you said the long-term goal is to expand the hospital use and, then, build the structural capacity to land the helicopter there and basically abandon this site at some point in the future, at least for a helicopter site or just as an alternate? Hall: We haven't got into the level of detail. We certainly want to get helicopter landing opportunity on the top of the hospital, whether we would provide this long-term parking capacity and the housing at the hospital in lieu of this location or not, we haven't thought that through yet. Nary: Do you have any time table of how long that -- Hall: We learned in our previous master plan efforts not to try and predict the growth in this area. It's many, many years away. Corrie: Any other questions? May be five years away Hall: I suppose. Thank you. Corrie: Thank you, any other testimony? I believe James Rogers? Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Rogers: Yes, it is. Corrie: Name and address, please. Rogers: J im Rogers. I I ive o n 1115 Rolling H ills D rive a nd we a re o pposed t o t his facility and if I may show you where that is located. This is Rolling Hills Drive -- this is the Rolling Hills Drive Subdivision and we live approximately here and, then, of course, there is the retirement community that's going to be f filling this area right here. The prevailing winds in this area are primarily from the northwest to the southeast, which is approximately this direction right here. Most aircraft land against the wind. That means the approach could be directly over our place this way, rather than on the freeway, sometimes it could be directly over this area here. At this point the helicopters are not going to have a lot of altitude coming over these residents, 200, maybe 500 feet, Something like that in landing mode -- in landing mode and takeoff mode they are pulling a lot of collective, there is a lot of rotor noise and a lot of turbine noise coming off those h elicopters. These can I and 24 h ours a day, s even d ays a w eek, a s w e s aid before, they are very noisy. In the military I walked under helicopters quite a bit, there is a reason to wear hearing protection around helicopters. As it is, we get a tremendous amount of noise from the freeway, especially during these northwesterly winds and wind storms or, you know, the westerly winds we get, just simply because it's blowing towards us. This is a noise we don't need to put up with, this additional noise, and we have no guarantee there is going to be one flight a day or there is going to be five flights Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 52 of 68 a day. I'm asking you to, please, take into consideration the neighborhoods around us, plus the potential of the people who are going to be living in the retirement community over there, there is going to be older people and they are not going to appreciate that kind of noise. Thank you. Carrie: Any questions? Nary: No. Corrie: Anyone else to issue testimony? I'd like to hear from the pilot, if I could. I have got some questions I'd like him to answer. Is the testimony you're about to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? McClellan: Yes. Corrie: Thank you. I had one question -- oh, I'm sorry, name and address, please. McClellan: It's Bob McClellan. I live in Boise, 4478 Chinook. Corrie: Thank you. How would you approach that site? Could you go over houses or down the highway or how could you do that? McClellan: Well, that's the advantage of this place is being able to use the freeway as the approach and the departure path and even with strong winds, the helicopter that we use is the quietest helicopter that is designed. It doesn't have a tail rotor and it isn't as loud as the Black Hawk and that's the advantage of this machine and it's powerful enough that even with cross-winds we can utilize the freeways as our approach and departure path. So, we wouldn't be flying over the houses, we'd either be making steep approaches, which would avoid all residential areas. There would be very few times it would necessitate flying over any houses. Corrie: Okay, any other questions? Bird: Sir, what is the decibels on a helicopter? What do they turn out? McClellan: Oh, I don't have that -- Bird: Ninety-two, ninety-six, something like that? Or would it louder than that? McClellan: Lower than that. I think it's eight -- .82. Bird: Okay. That's -- I didn't think they were that loud. I would think it would be safer to come down on the ground than some of the times with the weather you guys land up on the St. Luke's, S t. AI's, the roof tops, I mean I d on't know how you put them down, sometimes, up there in the wind and stuff, so I think that this is a very, very safe landing place for helicopters to come in. Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 53 of 68 McClellan: Yes, it is. Bird: It's probably as good as the airport or better. McClellan: Right. McCandless: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. McCandless. McCandless: I have question. Can you estimate the amount of flights you will have in and out, you know, on an average? McClellan: Oh, maybe one a day currently. It will pick up and one good thing about this location, our response time to Ada county and Canyon county will be much quicker than from downtown on I-84 or any traumas and it's ideal to service these local counties, because we are right there with the helicopter, so we get a request, we are airborne within five minutes and on our way to the patient. So, it's a good location to service Ada County and Canyon County on any trauma accidents. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Right now -- I mean you're saying that it's one flight a day, essentially, is what it sounded like, over the course of a fairly short period of time it was one and a half to two fights a day, somewhere in that range. I mean I guess what I'm concerned with is what kind of assurance can either you or St. Luke's give us about these neighbors' concerns? I think Mr. Rogers -- his concerns, he lives right in this area and, you know, there is no real assurance, this is not a car, that you're just going to be able to go straight down the freeway and make a right turn right there at the corner, so you have got homes on one side of the freeway you may have two crosses, you've got homes that are going to be fairly significantly impacted in this area right to the east -- I guess I'm not sure -- I guess I'm not really hearing what kind of assurance do we have that you aren't going to be flying over these people's houses. I assume there is a reason that they prefer to do landings on top of buildings and not next to residence, so what assurance do we have? McClellan: Well, when we make our -- when we make our approach to any of the hospitals that have heliports, we have to make -- there have make to our approaches over houses, though we are at a high altitude and we make a steep approach, it's not a low approach and you can take a large truck going down a freeway and that truck will almost be as noisy as the helicopter that we use to make these approaches. u's lust <, different type of noise. Nichols: Mr. Mayor? Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 54 of 68 Corrie: Mr. Nichols. Nichols: Mr. McClellan, perhaps you could describe what you -- what a steep approach is, what your average flight height would be down the freeway, when you would start that descent, you know, using this picture that's on the wall, you know, are you flying at 400 feet above the freeway, 500 feet, 1,000 feet? What's your distance above the freeway, when do you start that descent when you talk about a steep descent? McClellan: Well, we normally fly around a thousand feet over congested areas in route. So, we will start descending farther away from the hospital and, usually, at the 500 foot steep approach and you have -- well, it usually starts about 500 feet. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. McClellan: A pretty steep angle. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: There was s ome discussion at t he Planning a nd Z oning C ommission t hat t he requirement was that they have to fly at least 2,000 feet. Was that just an error? McClellan: Two thousand feet? The FAA requires 300 feet above congested areas, but that's our minimum requirement, but a thousand feet is normal altitude to fly. The traffic pattern at the Boise airport is 1,000 feet. Nary: I guess it's just -- it says in the minutes, it says the actual requirement says it must be about 2,000 feet above ground level and they would use the freeway to gain elevation. This is in response to inquires regarding Montvue and Meadow Lake and flying over these houses and so that was the testimony that was -- or that was the discussion, I guess. It's one of the Commissioners talking that it was 2,000 feet. So, what you're saying is that's not accurate? McClellan: Well, we can do any -- we can use any altitude that is needed, but the minimum requirement is 300 feet by the FAA. So, if that's what it necessitates to go over all of these subdivisions, well, that's what we can use. But you just don't come to 2,000 above the hospital and, then, go straight down, you got to have an angle of approach, which can be 45 degrees or be 60 degrees, according to how steep of an angle you want to take. You're not limited to any specific altitude. Corrie: Any other questions? Okay. Thank you. Anybody else that hasn't testified that wants to testify? Okay. Council, questions? Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 55 of 68 De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess I would have a question for Mr. Hall. I was wondering if you have any information on decibel levels on the noise that would be generated by the helicopters, versus the noise that already currently exists on the I-84 and, you know, I guess to really put that noise into perspective. You know, it's a new noise, but is it any louder than what is currently being generated by I-84? Hall: Mr. Mayor, Jeff Hall. I do not have comparative data on this helicopter and any other ambient background noise. Corrie: I believe the pilot said it was about equal to a truck at that point there, so -- Bird: I know that it's 80 -- their decibel is only 83 -- or 80 decibels. They are right with a truck or even a loud car, because I know at the speedway that the race cars run about 92 -- or 92 decibels is what they are allowed. So, they are not -- those helicopters are not that loud. I've had -- not the privilege, but the necessity over the last two months to be in St. AI's a lot and I had the privilege of listening to the helicopters come in and they are not that loud, they are not -- you can -- you're in the hospital right next to it in one of the wings, you can definitely hear them, but they are not any louder than the traffic noise on the interchange going down the road. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: You know, this is a fairly unique use, but it isn't like it's the only use, so I guess I didn't see in the staff report that there was any inquiry with Boise as to whether or not they receive a lot of complaints or concerns expressed about the use at St. AI's. I mean they have an alternate pad that they have, it's adjacent to the freeway, that they use on a rare occasion, but I guess I'm not -- I guess I'm still uncomfortable with this type of use and the uniqueness of it and we don't really have a whole lot of input as to how much bother it's going to be, other than Mr. Rogers says it's going to be a bother and nobody else can tell me it really isn't and so I guess I'm a little concerned and right now we don't have residents, but people call us because the speaker in a drive-thru is too loud and people call because their neighbors are playing their radios too loud. So, I just think this is really a risk to us. I mean I said to the other gentleman, I mean there is a reason that this -- these things are supposed to land on top of buildings, is to keep them as far away from houses as they can be and I guess I don't have any data and you don't have any and I don't think the staff has any to say these really aren't -- these really are like a loud truck. Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 20D3 Page 56 of 68 Hall: Mr. Mayor, Commissioner Nary, I have been with St. Luke's for over 13 years and we did relocate the heliport to a ground location and we added onto the top of the hospital in the early'90s and it landed on the ground for over a year within a half a block of the East End Neighborhood Association Warm Springs residents and we -- in over a year I can only think of one complaint from the residents. It's somewhat anecdotal, but that's our experience. Nary: Is that at least one a day? At least one landing a day every day? Hall: I don't have that data. My office is a house directly across the street from the emergency room underneath where the helicopter lands and you do hear the helicopter land. You do hear the difference between the two different helicopter services, and including the military on occasion, and I can attest that the pilot is correct, this is the quietest of the machines that come and go from the hospital in Boise. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess when I thought it had something to do with the medical center, it could be easily -more easily justified than housing a machine that -- that I know when it was at St. Luke's it was just getting up and getting started, so the frequency is certainly going to be different than this location. It is a prime location for it, you cannot argue that point, except where there a re residences and there is a whole b ig subdivision that I don't think they know one thing about this proposal. I would be -- I would like to have a little bit more information on decibels, on how it compares to the freeway, because I haven't really thought -- you know, I was looking at the noise I heard in my subdivision, but I'm not next to the freeway either that creates noise different, but, you know, it's certainly -- I don't know how it compares to each other. And just guessing is not something that I like to base my decisions on. And I also would like to get maybe a letter from the neighborhood association on how it didn't -- or how neighbor friendly it was, as it - I mean that is a close knit area and if you only got one complaint, that's very amazing, but how many landings did it do? And so I guess I would like a little bit more information. I don't know what the rest of the Council feels, but I would like a little bit more information, so I could better put this in perspective. Nary: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nary. Nary: Yes. I guess I would concur, except the one thing, I guess, we haven't talked about -- two things we haven't talked about. I don't see any buffering. I mean one of the reasons we a bate t he noise to t hese residences along here -- m y r ecollection i s there is a -- this wall that runs all along the berm right here, with the trees, huge trees, along this way. I don't recall on this side of the freeway, but that's why they built the masonry walls and why they built the fencing and trees and all that to create some Meridian City Council MeeOng May 27, 2003 Page 57 of 68 sound buffer, just so that the noise from this freeway doesn't impact these residents. I don't see in here that we had any real buffer to this pad and recognize there is probably a reason for that, from a flight saving standpoint, but that's also is the trade-off to the noise issue and I don't know if there is a solution to that. The other thing is I don't see in our staff report conditions that gives us some ability to deal with this. So, like I said, from an enforcement standpoint, when these neighbors -- if it's a problem, you're not there, this gentleman who testified is not the pilot, and they are flying over houses and that's just the way they do it and three to five years from now it's a problem and all of these neighbors are really mad, I want to have some enforcement mechanism to deal with it and right now I don't know that we have any. I don't know that we have a lot. So, I guess that's one of the things Iwould -- if we have the opportunity to get more information, I'd like both of you, as well as the staff, some ways to abate some of these issues, as well as enforce it later if it becomes a problem. Hall: Mayor Corrie, Commissioner Nary, a couple comments. Those conversations were held before the P&Z. One of the things, because it appears that one of the Site Plans is missing that shows the flight approach and take-off angles that are required of us by the FAA. It was felt that our -- a pilot -- a pilot who would be authorized to land here, who was not obeyed by FAA or being not neighbor friendly, would be dealt with by other agencies by the City of Meridian. And addition to that, I may not be here, but St. Luke's has been around over a hundred years now and I suspect they will be a lot longer than I am and St. Luke's will be responsible for our neighbors to the city to make sure that if there are concerns, we take care of them. So, we offered at the P&Z if there were any conditions you issue to add to u s to p rotect the neighbors or to indemnity yourself, if you will, for any problems that you perceive you may cause considering you entertain or we could be welcome to such a condition. Nary: Okay. Hall: If that helps in you're decision-making process. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I guess, Jeff, you're using the landscape buffer that currently exists and that's pretty well elevated. You could not see this from like I-84, could you? Hall: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman de Weerd, no, the landscape buffer that existed, you're .referring to the large berm. That is on the Touchmark property and it tapers off before it reaches our property. Commissioner Nary is very correct in his assumption that -- that buffering and shields are contrary to the approach and take-off and trying to nail it to the ground and that's why staff has allowed us to rearrange some of the trees that are required and the buffer, so that we don't grow trees up in the approach and take-off angles from the freeway to this pad, so just the nature of this beast does kind of prevent Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 58 of 68 us from some of the screening that we are allowed between a residence and the freeway. De Weerd: So, you would be able to view the helicopter from the freeway as you -- on the off-ramp or the on-ramp going onto Eagle Road. Hall: Yes. I believe so. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: Mr. Hall, doesn't the FAA and them people require how you land and take off and all that kind of stuff? I mean they have got a lot stricter requirements than the City of Meridian could ever put on and as far as a pilot, if he loses his license, he's lost his job, so -- Hall: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Bird, we do have a quite extensive application that is submitted to the FAA that does survey all residential, school, and church roof tops within a one mile radius and it looks at the lessor densities in a three mile radius and they are the ones that direct us to fly our approach and take offs. In conversation with the FAA -- not to speak for them, but this is also a very safe site, they like the idea of coming up and down the interstate and not being located somewhere else more central, if you will, and away from the interstate. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, can I ask for clarification from the applicant, perhaps in anticipation that we will be working together to find some resolution here. Can you explain if there are things that would prohibit you from more centrally locating that within your campus, rather than putting it out on the extreme edge where you are, kind of leading towards more residences? Would it be possible to pull it towards your parking lot more? Hill: Mr. Mayor, Mrs. Powell, yes, we have studied those other alternatives and the reason it's in this location is because of the freeway. Any direction we would move from this location would be closer to the retirement community at Touchmark or getting closer to our neighbors in the Montvue Subdivision to the north of us. That just adds to the reason it's located here is as far away on our property as we could get it from the closest residence and, then, again, adjacent to the interstate noise there and accessibility. But we will look forward to working with you on this. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: You know -- and I don't know anything about all of this, but it just seems if you're conscious about Montvue, the hospital is a great buffer on that. This puts it more Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 59 of 68 in line to seeing it and you don't have the buffer of the hospital. By moving it a little further west and you have -- I don't know. I think you will have fun working with our P&Z director. I just would feel better if I had better information on what noises already exist and how that could actually wash with the noise that you would be bringing in. Corrie: Any other questions? Hall: Thank you. Corrie: Thank you. De Weerd: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. de Weerd. De Weerd: I move that we continue this Public Hearing -- would a week give you enough time or two weeks? One week? To June 3rd, 2003? Nary: Second. Corrie: Okay. Motion Nary: You want to make it specific as to what they are -- De Weerd: Yes. Specifically, to get further information about the noise levels, noise of the helicopter compared to existing decibel levels currently out there due to the I-84, response from the neighborhood association when the helicopter was landing at St. Luke's, just on how -- I guess not how good of neighbors they were, but just on the experience they had and to add Councilman Nary's concerns about landscape buffering and what was the -- Nary: I guess some enforcement types of conditions that we could deal with if there is a problem. De Weerd: Okay. Bird: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Bird. Bird: How many homeowners associations -- how far are you going to go? Ten mile radius? Five mile radius? Three mile radius? And how many have homeowner associations? Some of those are old subdivisions out there that don't have it. De W eerd: Mr. Hall mentioned one homeowners association and I think that pretty much takes care of that northeastern part there by the high school -- or I mean by the -- Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 60 of 68 high school - by the hospital and so that's the only one I'm concerned about, the one immediately close to the St. Luke's in Boise. Bird: Oh, you're talking about the east end. De Weerd: Yes. Bird: Oh. Okay. Nichols: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mr. Nichols. Nichols: M r. Mayor, Members of the Council, j ust to remind you this g fives staff two days to get this done, to get the information in your packets before next week by only giving them one week from tonight. Nary: Well, I know they are good, but I don't know that that's very fair. Corrie: I think you're better off the 10th. De Weerd: I would amend that to the 10th. Nary: I concur. And I would only make one other comment, while Mrs. McCandless decides what she's going to do. I think there's more good than anything here. I think there is some very positive attributes to the city, but we have sat here time after time with people complaining about things we did and I want to be able to say we addressed it, we looked at it, we tried to address the concerns as best we can and I don't want to have to be here kicking myself later that we didn't do that. So, I think we really need to address some of these concerns and I think that we will feel at least more comfortable than I feel tonight, so -- McCandless: Mr. Mayor? Corrie: Mrs. McCandless. McCandless: I just wanted to make a comment sitting here thinking, we live in a society of noise, there is no getting away from it. We have fire engines and their sirens, we have ambulances and their sirens, we have police cars and their sirens, we have a race track in the middle of Meridian that some people complain about, because it's noisy, too. But these are -- with the exception of the race track, these are emergency vehicles, they are used in emergencies, and the helicopters that would be there -- or the helicopter, I was at a - I was at a demonstration of one these helicopters atone time and they aren't as noisy, because they don't have the tail- rotor. But it seems to me that there is not going to be -- when they leave here, if they are based there, they leave here, they are going for an emergency, someone needs them very badly and, then, they come back Meridian City Council Meeting May 27, 2003 Page 61 of 68 and wait for the next emergency, is that correct? So, I don't know that Ijust -- I don't object to them for those reasons. Corrie: Any other comments. Bird: I have got a good comment. You can tell who has got the age on this Council. You have to ask them guys once in awhile. Corrie: You don't want me to break the tie. Bird: No. De Weerd: Either that or hearing levels Corrie: Any other comments? Okay. We have a motion before the Council to continue the Public Hearing until 6110 of 2003 to gather more information stated, any further comments? Okay, roll call. Roll call: McCandless, yea; Nary, yea; de Weerd, yea; Bird, yea. Corrie: Just for the record, if it was a tie, I believe that you really need a helicopter when you need one, but I would give the two more weeks extension for you fellows and what you can get back for us. But I don't agree with everything that's said tonight, but we will see what happens in two weeks. Thanks, Jim. We will have a Continued Public Hearing, then, until June the 10th. MOTION CARRIED: ALL AYES. Item 21: Public Hearing: CUP 03-016 Request for a Conditional Use Permit for a craft store and coffeehouse in an O-T zone for The Library by Craig Rittenhouse - 141 East Carlton: Corrie: Public Hearing on No. 21. This is a request for a Conditional Use Permit for a craft store and coffee house in Old Town Zone for The Library by Craig Rittenhouse, 141 East Carlton. So, at this time I will open the Public Hearing on Item No. 21, CUP 03-016 and invite staffs comments first. Powell: Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, this project is located at -- it's an existing use, located at the corner of 2nd Street and Carlton and they also have frontage on an alley, as you can see in this picture. It is an existing use. They do have an approved Conditional Use Permit that was granted in 1996 for a craft store and an espresso stand -- or espresso shop and because the applicant is -- plans on expanding the existing building, they were required to come in and get a new Conditional Use Permit and that's why they are here tonight. The parking requirements per our code would require 14 spaces for this use. They currently are able to provide four and those are located -- how come Brad gets this arrow up right away and I can never find it? I'm sorry, if the