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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2008 01-07 Joint ACHDMeridian Cit Council Joint Meetin Janua 7 2008 The Meridian City Council special /joint meeting was called to order at 12:00 P.M. on Monday, January 7, 2008 by Mayor Tammy de Weerd. Members Present: Mayor Tammy de Weerd, Keith Bird, David Zaremba and Joe Gorton. Members Absent: Charlie Rountree. ACHD Members Present: Carol McKee, David Bivens, Rebecca Arnold, Sherry Huber, John Franden. Staff Present: Ted Baird, Kyle Radek, Matt Ellsworth, Pete Friedman, Anna Canning and Will Berg. Item 1. Status Report on Impact Fees: Brokaw: Good afternoon. For the record I am Mike Brokaw, the Deputy Director of Operations and I am .going to give you a quick presentation on the status of impact fees. I started the year in October 2006 with a beginning balance ofi a negative $10 million. What that meant was the total of all of the service areas, unfortunately were in the red when we started the year. We had one service area that was in the black (inaudible). Collections at $14.4 million, which actually came in a little bit higher than after we revised it. We had expenditures of $23.4 millian -out of those are impact fee eligible expenses, actually the total costs of the projects was a little bit higher than that. So we had an ending balance of $19 million in the red. I am going to go through each one of the service areas one by one and give you a brief overview of them. The northwest is service area number one. This would be north of the freeway and west of Eagle Road. It had a beginning balance of a positive $1.6 million, had collections of $5.2 million. This happened to be the highest amount of collections in any of the service areas. The impact fee eligible fee projects casts totaled $8.2 millian. So we have an ending balance of a negative $1.4 million. Major projects that were included in this service area were Locust Grave, Franklin to Fairview for construction at (inaudible) million. Also the right-af-way on Ten Mile, Franklin to Cherry Lane, $1.2 million and the McMillan and Meridian intersection $1.2. I might add that these costs are just impact fee eligible costs here. The project costs were much more than that. I believe that you have in the handout that hopefully was either in front of you or we sent over prior to the meeting. It has a fairly extensive list of each project and does show the total project costs on there too. The southwest service area -this would be south of the freeway and again, west of Eagle Road had a beginning balance of a negative $700,000; collections of $4.2 million. This was the second highest collection service area. Impact fee eligible projects of $7 million for an ending balance of a negative $3.5 million. Overland Road, Linder to Meridian was the largest project cost there and then Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 200$ Page 2 of 18 Overland, Topaz to Cloverdale and Overland and Meridian and Victory and Cloverdale. Service area number three is the southeast. It had a beginning balance of a negative $4.3 million and collections of $1.1 million. Impact fee eligible projects of $800,000; ending balance of a negative $4 million. So not a whole lot of projects going on here yet. The collections haven't been too high. This is the service area that the Park Center Bridge is in. At the most cast there for $700,000. Of the northeast service area number four had a beginning balance of a negative $C.6 million. Of course this is the one that is furthest in the red; collections of $3.9 million; impact fee eligible projects costs of $7.4 million, currently has an ending balance of (inaudible) million in the red. This is where the majority of the construction activity was this past year. Yet the major cast there for the Maple Grove extension, Fairview to Cloverdale, $1.7 million on the right-af-way and then the Ustick, Five Mile to Cole project, we have quite a few more casts (inaudible). I think the total cost for this particular year approached $$ million on this particular project. What all of this means is we have a $19 million loan balance. That means that the general fund monies have had to put up $19 million over and above the impact fees that were collected in order to get these projects to the point that they are now. Of course a lot of that was construction costs. An awful lot of it was right-of-way design costs. As you can see from this point, northeast is the furthest in the red at $10.1 million and the south (inaudible) and a majority of the collections have been in the northwest and southwest. We also have extraordinary impact fees. We have three areas currently. Right now we have $2.4 million in the west foothills. Those projects haven't been completed yet, but when they are that is where the money will came from. (Inaudible) completed those improvements and are hopefully going to collect enough to make up for the $400,000 deficit there. This is some loan balances by year. It gives you a little bit of historical information. We have gone from (inaudible--) and a loan balance that dropped to $4.8 million in 2005 and rose dramatically in 2006 to $11.5 million and now we are settled al $19 million. (Inaudible--) for 2008 and right now it is looking like it is going to come in right at $20 million. We will have to wait for the (inaudible). Right now through the first quarter through the end of December, we are looking at about $150,000 less than (inaudible). I believe that is all I have unless you have any questions. McKee: Any questions for Mike? Zaremba: (Inaudible--). Somehow there has to be improvement on the other side of the balance sheet. ACHD needs more income and how do we do that? McKee: (Inaudible--) Huber: (Inaudible--) and haw long we think it may take to come out of it and if it takes - I don't think we have really determined the time, but if it takes a longer time than we think it should we may have to change projects in that zone until we can get a realistic number of revenue coming in that will offset that loan because otherwise you are going to keep doing projects and that particular zone keeps Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 3 of 18 going down and there is no hope of bringing it up. So we started to do same accounting things that we haven't done in the past, but we need to make it more fine (inaudible) and more detailed. (Inaudible discussion) Levihn: We are in the process of scheduling all of those workshops with the cities. We are looking at Meridian at about the (inaudible--) variable level of service and defining what our base starting point is from there and what the Blue Print consultants have told us is that once that map is settled and defined, it would be about two months after that, so one of the big (inaudible) here is when we go to each of the jurisdictions and ask what levels of service are you willing to accept and what areas of your jurisdiction --? And you might think that it sounds like we could do that in a day or two (inaudible), but then we would have to have the (inaudible--) where your jurisdiction (inaudible). (Inaudible--) or middle of February would be about middle of May or June, but it may be complex and we may get into a series of meetings with your staff and our Commission to try to resolve those differences, so it is a little bit hard for me to say. The earliest, I would say would be (inaudible--). De Weerd: Is that information to the staff (inaudible)? Levihn: What we are (inaudible_-). We discussed (inaudible) last Friday and trying to get (inaudible--), the bigger ones first of which are one and I hope have the packet of information (inaudible--). (Inaudible discussion) Franden: Thanks Carol. Dave to kind of answer your question in another way too is the one thing that we will need to be going out to get reauthorization for the registration fee and increase that and we will allow - it has to be done by (inaudible), has to be approved, so we will ga out this November and hopefully it will pass; if not we will have to ga out again in 2010. Right now my own opinion is the only possible revenue source I see is that the legislature will give authorization for a local tax of some kind and then it comes down to, let's just say it works out the way in legislation now for a Regional Transportation Authority to identify the projects. Well, that would be another source of revenues that would go into ACHD. However, right now, quite honestly what I hear the conversation being as far as monies would go and is yet of -course is to be determined is into the state system to 20/26, HWY 44 and other projects there, but that is yet to be determined. That is a long ways down the road. Zaremba: I am going to ask what is a novice or rookie question Iguess -does ACRD have the power to bond? Franden: Yes. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 4 of 18 (Inaudible discussion) Franden: I think that is what we did, didn't we with the last registration fees, Mike, on --? Brokaw: That is true. We have a limited ability to bond. We cannot issue general obligation bands like the cities can, but we were able to use a vehicle registration fee as the specific revenue source to pay back bonds, so we were able to do that back in 1991. If that is renewed or a new one installed then that is probably the avenue that we could go. We would probably have to either go to an election in order to allow us to do that or a judicial confirmation. Bird: John, on the ITD ar the registration fees, ACH^ is going to ask for it and I understand also there is a plan out to the legislature that state is going to ask to do it, too, so we are going to be double the registration fees, but you guys will be guaranteed. But, if we voted far your -you won't be guaranteed it will you? Franden: No, if the voters voted in the affirmative then the one in Ada County would continue on, but who knows what will happen? McKee: If they don't then we lose about $4 million in revenue. That is about what we get. Bird: Is that what you are getting? Franden: Yeah. Bird: And that is the only thing you can bond on is guaranteed revenue? Am I not right? You can't bond on impact fees or anything like that can you? Brokaw: That is correct at this time. Bird: We have gat to make sure this registration fee and you are going to have it out this November? Franden: Yes. McKee: So the bond amount -you can only bond (inaudible--) as the registration fees are paid for. Franden: We thought we would wait until after the legislature gets out of town to really start working it. (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 5 of 18 Bivens: Sherry I think it makes a lot of difference the amount that we ask for the renewal ofi our registration fee or - I will give you a little background, maybe most of you remember, but some may not that this is the third try. They dropped it from 50 down to 20 to get it passed and the major thing that we were running into and I am sure that Sherry remembers and maybe some of the others do too, but the major thing was the replacement of the bridges across the canals on (inaudible) was a major thing that passed that registration fee here (inaudible). It is not going to be easy to get that done. Huber: One thing that we kind of kicked around and I don't think we totally (inaudible) is we may take a similar approach and maybe (inaudible). As we all know the intersections kind of give you greater capacity for a two lane road and certainly we can all name real easy five intersections we wished and it is pretty much -you know I think there is enough throughout the County, but I think that is one thing that we talked about that might be an approach and I think it would rapidly move us along (inaudible--). McKee: Any other questions? Okay, how about we move onto the five year work plan? Katey? Item 2. Presentation -Draft of Five Year Work Plan: Levihn: I will stand here by the microphone so it picks me up. I don't have a handout on this. I understand what the question is what is the status of our five year work program and what is the schedule for the future and I have to apologize to the Commission they are going to hear some things for the first time here today as well, which is why I am not going to be terribly detailed because I have to speak with them on Wednesday. We did put out Draft A. I don't know if all of you understand that that program was about $16 or $17 million over programmed and with the recent drop in impact fees and the uncertainty of the funding that seemed excessive. So staff has been working very hard to bring that over programming down. We did meet with - I was supposed to meet with Mayor De Weerd and Pete Friedman and we met with Charlie Rountree instead in between Christmas and New Years to kind of give you a little bit of an idea of where it is. We have managed in what is a very tentative draft that I have got to go talk to the Commission about and bring a lot of that aver programming down. One of the things that we have as yet not been able to accomplish is to keep the impact fee loan balance low. That is one big question that we have to go to the Commission with. Another one is we have a fair amount of advanced construct for federal aid projects, which is a drain on our dollars. I don't know if you will understand what that means. It means we get - we have the guaranteed federal funding or as guaranteed as it can be in the future programmed for a couple of large projects, for instance Franklin, Touchmark to Five Mile in your area. But, it has been out in the out years. We currently, under our procedure with ITD have to put up all of the money up front and get reimbursed in the future year when the funding becomes available. That is a huge drain on our resources. Staff has Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 6 of 18 been in contact with ITD to see if we can da that differently and we don't have an answer back yet, but that would also ga to the Commission and might help the problem. In taking a look at the whole program, we have really managed to reduce the over programming except not in the first couple of years, which is difficult and I will be giving the Commission a couple of options about doing that and when we met with Council Member Rountree and Pete Friedman you know, most of the projects that are scheduled in the first couple of years; there is East Park Center Bridge, but all of the other large ones are in Meridian and we may need to work with you on our timing of some those projects. So I am working feverishly to get something to go to our Commission that is Wednesday for a discussion and see where we are going to come out with the five year work program after that. The schedule, typically we try to have it adopted in late January or early February to meet with the COMPASS schedule feeding into the TIP and the STIP. If we can't quite meet that we can work with COMPASS to put in as much as we can. It would only be, I think, one or two projects that might shift and they can go ahead with their air quality conformity while we take slightly longer on the five year work program. But, it has been a very challenging year due to a number of circumstances -the reduced revenues that we have been getting; the challenge with what kind of revenue are we going to get in the future -the increased construction costs; the impact fee loan balance having ballooned so much and looking like it is going to balloon some more in the future and we are struggling with all of that. Any questions? Huber: Katey I don't have a question, but since you are surprising us a little - one thing that I think we need to take a look at. I was cleaning out my desk and ran across a lot of documents that remind me of some things is that we need to start looking at the maintenance dollars as we go into each city because I was looking at the breakdown of the capitals in the five year plan. There was some totals and there was no date on it. It is probably a little bit older, but if you take the maintenance and add it to the capital, I think there is a really big imbalance with Boise in particular and I am not saying that -- Boise is part of my district too, but when I looked at it and I really think that it was that document that brought it - that hit me in the face as we were looking at this money crunch. I think we da have to not just focusing on capital, but on total dollars too, financial because I know they have complained that they don't get enough, but when you look at the dollars in capital and the dollars that go into the maintenance then there is a real wacky amount opposed to revenue. Because (inaudible) revenue number to the side of it and there was no date on the paper, but I think it was fairly recent that that was given to us. If we take a lack at that, the number $9 million for Boise far just maintenance. So in a five year plan that is $45 million and if you add that on top of the capital the number really does get to (inaudible). And again if we are in a money crunch, what are we supposed to do? We have got to look at everything and I am not picking on any one entity because I don't know what the totals are going to be that was just the one on the example of the sheet of paper that I had that gave Boise's total and I don't even know what Meridian's is. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 7 of 18 Levihn: Well and a couple of other factors if we are going to bring up something like that that we are looking at is one of the things Draft A had construction and right-of-way and design wildly fluctuating between years; well that is very difficult for us to have to try and execute, you know, if you had - it would be more than - sometimes three times as much in one year as the other, so Draft B we tried to level that out some. We also have to be concerned about sitting in with all of ITD's work and trying to match the Ten Mile Interchange and the GARVEE construction and not do other things. So it has been a really challenging year. I did want to point one thing out. The five year program, since you brought it up does not show renewal of the (inaudible) registration fee. That was a conservative stance we took on those starting in 2011, the $4 million a year drops out. Now it doesn't show very strongly because we make up more in same of our other revenue, we think, with the property taxes and the impact fees, but that is not included in there - if we do get that renewed and re-upped, next year's five year work program might look slightly better depending on how places ga. The other thing that may ultimately affect housing get executed this year is how gaad (inaudible) prices come in recently. They have been coming in good, but we dan't know if that is going to continue and with a couple of major projects coming up -- McKee: Any other questions for Katey? (Inaudible discussion) Ellsworth: Try to be brief here. First a quick thank you to Katey and her staff, Andrew O'Connor, the new five year work plan coordinator and he did a great jab pulling information together prior to the release of Draft A. The memo that he distributed to staff and other cities made it very clear to what is going on with changes from last year to this year and made the whole thing a lot easier to soak in so thank you Andy and thank you Katey. As far as Draft B and so forth is concerned as soon as a schedule is laid out in front of us as to the release of Draft B and when ACHD will need comments back I will work to get that back to our Council and ask you to provide comments, but we appreciate the opportunity to do so. McKee: Thank you. We can always depend on you guys to come back with your comments. We don't ever to ask. You had a comment, David? Zaremba: Madame Chairman on the subject of maintenance, I support the idea that it is important to maintain the infrastructure that the public already awns and that is an important thing. I will ask again a question that I asked at (inaudible) and put Katey on the spot a little bit to ask in front of the Commissioners. At what point does the loan balance to the impact fee start to threaten the ongoing maintenance? Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 8 of 18 Levihn: That is one of the issues that we have to come to the Commission as to what level of loan balance are you comfortable with? Of course, the loan balance has rocketed because the project for constructing has gone up and we have had to fund those projects that are underway and we don't really have an answer for that Council Member Zaremba (inaudible--). Huber: We have been noodling aver that for quite some time and it is just not anything that we have come to a decision and we are hoping that with all of these figures coming in, hopefully with our bids going down and impact fees coming in that we won't have to make such drastic decisions, but it is coming there and it is definitely going to have discussion. But, how we level with that maintenance, we haven't discussed that at all because we do have to maintain the system and we are committed to maintain the system. McKee: Anything else on this before we move on? Item 3. Update on S. Meridian Transportation Plan: Levihn: Just as a refresher this is one of the really first land use and transportation integration studies. We have tried to it and it has been a wonderful effort on everybody's part. The .study area was the Freeway on the north, I-84, three quarters of mile east of Eagle over on the east side there, which basically takes in the City of Meridian city limits down into the south, kind of halfway in between Columbia and Hubbard on the eastern portion and then Lake Hazel on the western four miles and McDermott Road. So it was quite a large study area. We did coordinate heavily with the City of Meridian. You were developing an alternative land use scenario in there. It involved significant community participation in the whole process. Like I said it was one of the full scale integrated cooperative efforts between ACHD and the city and I think Craig just handed it out to you. We just received notice on Friday and has been awarded 1st place by ACEC Idaho for studies, research and consulting services as a model plan there. It's general purpose is to try identify those long range multi-module transportation needs in the area and comparing the growth forecast with the new land use plans from Communities in Motion, both choices in trend in looking at what you have got planned for coming out in that area. These are just a couple of the alternative plans that you had. Matt informs me that he is actually going to the Meridian City Council the first week of February with one that is slightly different from this, but that was incorporated into looking at the study and it is really kind of interesting I need to process what I am -- well let me get through this slide first. So the proposed changes to your Meridian Comp Plan actually result in a significantly higher demographic projections than had been accounted for in Communities in Motion and reflected in the existing long range plans and COMPASS'S long ranged plan and our Capital Improvement Plan and as a result so if that land use scenario is adopted it means -the study indicates a larger number of widening and intersection Improvements being needed in that area, which therefore, means significantly higher costs than we currently have Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 9 of 1$ planned in that area. Some of the recommendations and these are preliminary drafts because we got a little out of sequence with this study and with what is happening with TLIP, so these are just being held in abeyance until we complete that next TLIP step, but they had a revised street functional classification designation, as I mentioned before a number of road widening projects - it did proposed a revised access management policy, we incorporated some pedestrian and bicycle system plans in there to address some of the multi- modules and then it did have a little bit of a proposed route for Overland and of course, that Overland Road was pulled out and addressed separately. The draft final report was submitted to us in September, October. Like I said, unfortunately it was written to actually be coordinated with TLIP, the TLIP got behind in schedule so the results are not totally integrated with that, which we have to wait far this next step with TLIP to be able to analyze that and compare the two after we know what variable level of service you would like in your area, look at what matches through TLIP with that and look again what is in with the Communities in Motion and our long range plan and see what the difference of the required transportation and infrastructure in that area would be, which is why I am not presenting any precise results today because that could change. We are doing a pretty good analysis trying to look at that and see what it may mean to especially our CIP update and the adequate public facilities ordinances that are coming down. For your information on the CIP update, we should be starting that about the middle of this year again and so all of this is kind of coming together at the same time if we are adding more projects into the CIP, but we don't show a corresponding increase in revenue that means some projects are going to have to drop out the end ar the new ones that are added won't be reflected in the CIP. We just don't know how that is going to turn out. I already spoke about TLIP. We have not gone to the Commission again with this study because we are waiting on this and of course, you are looking at adopting that proposed land use plan in February. I am not sure without a little bit more analysis on the financial end, if you would like to wait a little on that adoption or go ahead and adopt it because at this point and time, ACHD does not have the funding through these significantly greater number of transportation projects in that area. We are caught in this sort of chicken and egg kind of loop with trying to pull all these facets together. Additionally, we are in the process of starting a new access management policy. Staff is working on that in-house and again it hasn't not even been completed in-house or gone to our Commission, but we would certainly look at some of the access policy recommendations that have so far come forth in this study. I have already spoke again about TLIP, the workshop. We were hoping to get them scheduled in February and keep that much on track as much as possible. Additionally we have the roadways to bikeways master plan that is getting relatively near to completion. It is in a major review stage right now. It may need to go through another do loop with TLIP; again where you put those bikeways may matter on where your major transportation corridors are or nat. So, all those three pieces are waiting to come together. Like I said the CIM and CIP consistency with a long range funding, the transportation needs that are showing in the study are significantly in addition to what is in either one of Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 10 of 1$ those documents and then finally determining the adequate public facilities ordinance implications and needs; we need the complete picture on that to try to come up with a funding mechanism to address the transportation requirements. So I am going to leave it at that broad high level for now, but I am her for any broad questions and if you have specific questions, Craig could answer those. (Inaudible discussion) Levihn: Well, I tried to give you my best guess on what happened with TLIP (inaudible) and once we get that variable level of service map we have got to again coordinate it across the whole county and I have no idea if that is going to be an easy task ar a hard one depending on what people say. Huber: So that is the determining factor then? Levihn: Then after that was set, we probably need another -two months seem to be the magic number today. Two months to try to rerun some of the modeling analyses and assumptlans that come into that, run them through both staffs and jurisdictions and see where we are and come up with a list of final projects and then try to cost those. De Weerd: So when is the bikeway plan (inaudible)? Levihn: It is supposed to be looking at final review for the Commission in March. Again I am not depending on - I am going to guess that is going to slip until April because of the TLIP input. There are some areas - De Weerd: So you will try and tie these two together? Levihn: Yeah, I am trying to work on a master schedule for all of this. It is just kind all hitting us from all sides to try to get that together, you know Boise's Comp Plan, your Comp Plan update, TLIP, the bike master plan, the various studies that are going on in the area; adequate public facilities ordinance and put it all together. I will try to get an overall schedule together in the next couple of weeks. De Weerd: Katey you also mentioned in your presentation that the South Meridian Plan has more density than Communities in Motion. Since we also are impacted at the downstream of that, what is Kuna doing to these same roads and Southwest Boise? Can you tell me how some of that also plays into it? Levihn: Partially. I can tell you partially. We have a study in Southwest Boise looking at that. It is going to have to tie in the same way. Kuna is - we are working with them on their Comp Plan, right Chris --update? (Inaudible discussion) Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 11 of 1$ Chris (last name?): it is probably going to be - I don't know if the timeline quite as long as Boise, but presumably a year to a year and one half (inaudible). Levihn: But, I think we can move ahead with what's in place with the plan. I do want to emphasize that this was a really terrific planning effort. We very much appreciate Meridian working with us on the transportation side and looking at this. We just haven't been able to get it to the Commission with all of the analysis and the other things going on. But, this is really the type of study that is going to help both of our communities. I mean, the city and ACHD determine what the transportation needs really are in the area and haw to fund them in the sequence of how they could be done or alternatively what needs to be triggering adequate public facilities ordinance, extraordinary impact fee or requirements on developers so that we can try to keep up with it. One of the assumptions in this study for instance is that it goes to 2030 and it is pretty much full build out, you know, that is another layer that we can look at in studies is what if that full build out doesn't occur in 30 years because people tend to be fairly optimistic and sometimes the build out doesn't occur that way. We have also seen the flip side where all of sudden an area booms when nobody had anticipated it, so one of the thoughts at trying to look at some of this is maybe a 50 percent build out, a 75 and 100 in 20 years and see what that does to the funding plan for the transportation. There is -you know we are kind of entering a new phase within integrating this land use and transportation planning and it is making us try to look at things in a new way and figure out what is realistic and it is going to involve everybody. De Weerd: Just a follow up. With that southwest area being already $3.5 million in the whole and all these questions out there, what is the Commission's position and applications in those areas are presented? If you don't do something different or delay decisions, you are just going to get further and further in the hole. Huber: That is what I said earlier is what they would take a look at is the potential income as that grows and matching it to - if it will be a positive ar negative, meaning there is the impact fees, the increased with just the property taxes to see - to match each zone that way to see what the potential is and is it going to go deeper or is it in your "x" going to start to show positive. That is what we are trying to get-you know alittle - it is somebody's best estimate, but it is an estimate I don't think we have ever done before. That is what I was talking about earlier that we have to look at for the zone, so that the zone - it is the zone that worries me the mast of course is the one that is the $10 million because that is just a huge red flag and if we can't see -from my view if we can't see that that zone is going to come out of it in say five years or -again we haven't decided as a Commission but to me we have got to be talking about they are cut off. I mean it is that simple. Until we can see that a zone is going to get itself out, it is foolish for us in my mind to keep pouring money into it. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 12 of 18 De Weerd: Well, the other zones suffer. Huber: Well, right. That is exactly right. Franden: Thanks (inaudible). You know Tammy the other part on it is the adequate public facilities _ if that can be implemented then what we are going to do is we will come to you and we will say, road "x" or transportation "x" is it can't handle this, it is over capacity. It will be over capacity. So then you are going to have some tough decisions and you will have some tools where you can say yes or no to a particular development and the developer will then have same tools to say well instead of saying no let's take a look at doing something now to improve the offsite of where our development is. Huber: See and that is where it is really important to you guys to really understand that level of service because what John is talking about really is where it ends up on the facilities ordinance and so if you pick a level of service that I will say high, but you think is ideal and then that is in your growth area then it is going to cost more in that growth area because maybe you picked "c" and it goes to "d" where the whole rest of the county might be at "d" because we don't have the money and then that area is going to cost more in my mind to develop. So, I think those are things that when you are talking about level of service and Katey was saying that it is not quite as easy as you think it is, those are the things that you guys are going to have to really look at and in your downtown core, you know, how you want that. But for you because the growth -you know where the growth is and you know where it is going to be in the next two years, I think it is a lot more complicated question. De Weerd: Well yeah and it is not only going to cost more in your mind, it will cost more in reality too. I guess the premise is I understand all of that and we have been anxiously awaiting this to happen. But, I am more anxious probably to see how you are going to handle in these downstream areas, other people's impacts an our roads so that the people developing in our community are not building for a fringe development or are not covering the impact of fringe development. Huber: You sound like Boise worrying about all the other traffic. That is the problem we are going to have is exactly what you described is what Boise yips at Meridian about on the downstream - it is really something that the cities are going to have to -because you are right. That is correct. But how do we grapple with it? Because every city is going to have a downstream effect likely on somebody else. Or more than one somebody else. So .that really is -- I mean you might -that is why if you pick "c" - (Inaudible discussion Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 13 of 18 Huber: -- but you get the flow dawn there to Kuna that takes it to a different level and that is why I am saying that the level of service is a complicated issue. Zaremba: Well, a lot of good thought has gone into this already and some of the discussions that we had (inaudible--). I am a very strong advocate of pinning some idea of what the build outs would be and even as we know that is going to be a lot of estimates and we need to have same idea of the closer parts of Canyon County's full build out as well. Meridian is impacted by what happens in Nampa and Caldwell. Huber: Well, we don't want to make it any more complicated than - Zaremba: Well, it ends up on our roads as well, but the thing that I think that we need to figure out is why we need to have the full build out in the plans is so that as the land use jurisdiction and the highway jurisdiction work together -the thing that worries developers is that the developer that comes in next month will get their project approved and not contribute to the future infrastructure and developer two, three and four will be okay, but developer five tips the balance and all of sudden we are saying to developer five, you can't do anything unless you put in $10 million and the issue of fairness is that we need to know ahead of time what full build out is going look like and we need to parcel that out to the people that are applying today and have a mechanism that we all agree on that allows us to do that. I have established the problem, but I don't know what the answer is. Bivens: I am going to throw out another wild card. Dave through out one and I want to. What will the effect be of reduced values on our revenue income? How will that effect us and how soon? Then on the other side, can we project what the cost of the (inaudible) might hopefully be reduced - (Tape turned over) Bivens: I think that is something we need to (inaudible--) assessors and talk to them and see if they can give us any idea at all -any idea of what that might be, but I don't think there is any doubt about property values going to be (inaudible). (Inaudible discussion) Bivens: The Governor, supposedly at 3:00 going to give us an idea of what he intends to do with increasing the value of homes. Zaremba: I would guess that the larger homeowners exemption that was passed by the legislature is going to effect all of us; everybody that has property taxes. Bird: It hasn't effected us yet because we have had great growth, but this year and next year in Meridian at least our new building permits as you guys know is Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 14 of 1 S maybe 25 percent in what the were in 2005 and so that is going to effect us. But, we are just going to have to be like the private world and tighten our bills and get by with what we have got. You have got a great idea, but I don't know if anybody could foresee that. I mean, I wish there was people like that. Yau hit it right on the head, but how do you forecast? De Weerd: I will lend you my crystal ball. (Inaudible discussion) Bird: You can make a stab at it, but the market is going to drive -some places you might have R-8's. Other places you might have R-4's. You might plan for R- 8's and they come in and R-8's and they come in and do R-2's or R-4's or they want R-15's or R-40's. Let's say you want retail or you want commercial out there and maybe that dan't go - we changed our Comprehensive Plan areas quite often because to accommodate that kind of market place. I don't - (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: -- break down the cost per square mile because if your net density per square mile in your Comp Plan is going to change then the fees need to be adjusted accordingly because we all know that the less dense you get, the more (inaudible) analysis is going to take far your (inaudible). So, I guess if you can come up with a cost per square mile, it will be easier with a Comprehensive Plan to adjust some of those variables that you struggle with. Franden: You mean the cost per mile of roadway, not square mile, right? You are thinking about (inaudible) charts, right? De Weerd: Your impact fees. Huber: I think that would be hard to do - to just blanker that because it is a lot cheaper to build a road out in the south county than it is up in the foothills. So we would have to work that aut, too. De Weerd: We would almost have to do it by area. (Inaudible discussion) Zaremba: (Inaudible) to standard question (inaudible) to establish that we anticipate a certain density and a certain mix of residential and commercial area within a square mile. But, what does your infrastructure cast to serve that? It helps us to have it in a square mile piece of information because as she says, if we agree to change the density, it still needs the infrastructure around it and over here and down the way. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 15 of 18 (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: -- (inaudible) and that way when we change, Council even knows that if we are changing the density either up or down that that should have - Zaremba: -- the downstream effect. We haven't been doing that kind of analysis. McKee: Can we give them a number that says if you develop at 6 units an acre this is what needs to be done in the road system if you develap at 8 or 10? Huber: It is going to get complicated because our downtown course will be a whole different mix. You know, per square mile. De Weerd: But you know -- (Inaudible discussion) Levihn: Commissioners and Council Members, I could look into that. It does get complicated because I think you are talking dwelling units and you throw in the mix of commercial and retail or manufacturing and that is very different because they have different traffic rates. I could look into seeing if that would happen. I also just wanted to comment on Council Member Zaremba's liking to look at full build out. When you plan you do want to look at full build out, but actually putting the infrastructure in place depends on the rate of that build out. I mean, if the full build out occurs in 10 years, you need $100 million in the next 10 years, you know that is $10 million a year, where if it occurs in 30 years, you only need $3 million a year. That is a big difference. So those are a couple of the questions. I mean you look at build out for what your ultimate needs may be, but the actual funding plan to get there depends very much on the rate of the occurrence of the build out. Zaremba: I think my desire to look at full build out is directed more at understanding what right-of-ways we need to preserve as opposed to actually putting the pavement in there. Some of them could take 50 years to build out. It could take 10 or it could take 50. Nobody knows. I agree we shouldn't put the pavement there, but we as a land use agency have to know what right-of-way has to be preserved. Otherwise somebody is going to build pn it and we will never be able to afford to buy the right-of-way. I know it is purely imagination, but whatever we can guess on build out - (Inaudible discussion) Levihn: Not that TLIP is going to solve everything, but the very last step in TLIP is supposed to came up with producing a corridor preservation map based on all of the input that we have got and of course that will be in flushed to some extent. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 16 of 18 McKee: I agree with what you were saying about Canyon County. I had a conversation with David Ferdinand the other day, who said they are slowing down, but they are still approving plats like crazy and they know all of that traffic is coming right through us. So we do need to get that conversation going and make sure we have those numbers in the mix because they do. They come across the line, you know, we are no longer counties, we are just one big region. Any other questions, comments? Item 4. Discussion -Extension & Widening of Pine Avenue: McKee: Mr. Little are you going to handle that for us? Little: If the question is traffic counts or traffic volumes, then I will. Either one. If it deals with projects then (inaudible). De Weerd: That doesn't look like Pine. (Inaudible discussion) Little: What happens with Pine with an extension? What happens after Meridian? It is giving you same numbers there that show you the (inaudible) counts east of Main Street. This reflects Main to Locust Grove, pretty much and then west of Eagle between Locust Grove and Eagle. That is just local traffic mostly (inaudible) and then what goes up into that industrial side. Same do go through there, but certainly without it put through that is not a very reflective count. 2030 trend forecast shows 8,600 between Main and Locust Grove and about 18,600 between Locust Grove and Eagle. That is the higher one. The choicest one, which deals with higher densities and more infill on that shows 7,800 and 10,000. It is much more moderate and you can see the threshold for level service "d" for a two lane and a three lane. So essentially if you build it out to three lanes, 17,000 is your goal and you would have about half of that in the Main to Locust Grove section, 8,600 by that forecast and west of Eagle, you are up over the level of service for three lanes and that is being planned to be built to five lanes. This is a direct hourly peak directional light -more technical and I don't think it is that important but it is just what we really use for design these days and what we use for the impact fee, but we are moving to that direction. Mainly I am using the 24 hour (inaudible) simplicity and it gives you a fairly good comparison. Looking at Fairview at seven lanes is the 2030 forecast and shows it as 8,600 as I showed you. It stayed at five lanes. We didn't get this Fairview built out to seven lanes in 20 years. It shows more .traffic, of course, on Pine; about 10,300. Still within the three lane threshold for a roadway. We figured like you said 17,000 is the three lane level service "d" at capacity or level service "e", 18,500. With the choices forecast it is less than that. Bottom line is we don't see more than a three lane demand out there between Locust Grove and Main; you don't have more than a three lane right-of-way through mast of that. In old town proper, I guess you would call it, (inaudible) 6t" Street west there is an 80 foot Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 17 of 18 right-of-way, but from about 6th Street east or (inaudible) you would get is more like 60 feet less right-of-way. We have not been able to reserve it for five lanes out in that section (inaudible--). That is a nutshell in the traffic forecasts. McKee: Any questions? No. Thank you. Canning: Commissioners, Council Members thank you. I think Mr. Rountree asked far this item to be put on the agenda today and I think his concern was that we have been focusing a lot of the north south routes through Meridian and not so much the east west routes and we really believe that this Pine will become a major (inaudible) route into our downtown area and then (inaudible) over time and I think he just wanted perhaps greater attention and thought about it. Again, it was kind of his idea and unfortunately he is not here today, but I do think it was just more than a traffic update. I think he wanted to begin same discussions about east west routes and how to improve that throughout Meridian. McKee: Well, is he suggesting he wants five lanes or three lanes or --? Canning: I don't know for sure. We can ask him again, just don't be surprised if this comes up again since unfortunately is he is not here. McKee: I was going to suggest that. We could always talk about that another time. Zaremba: Nat to speak for Charlie, but my instinct would be that he would probably like to see a bigger route than smaller. I think that what would be the impetus for that is the instant success of what you all did with Locust Grove. I mean, it is thrilled and it is already packed. Well, Pine Street connecting east and west is going to give even more access to Locust Grove and vice-a-versa and I think Charlie is anticipating that Pine Street may go away (inaudible) were anticipating and I would kind of support him in that. I mean we need to think big. Bird: It takes a lot of the traffic off of Cherry Lane and Pine (inaudible) because it starts at Ten Mile and it comes all the way to Boise. I also feel that not only Pine, but we need to really proceed on Ustick Road and getting it taken care of and I am the first to say that Boise doesn't want it done in their area then bring the money over and do it in our area. But that is from the river Boise -and we have been worrying about north and south. But, we have got to worry about east and west because somebody (inaudible) stand out there in the mornings and evenings and see how many two seat cars and even one "g" and the one "e" and all of them that are coming through there and I know every town is impacted by other cities' traffic, but we seem to be kind of the hub. We are right in the middle. We are the hub of the Valley, but I think Pine will really relieve a lot of traffic off of Fairview and Franklin and even Overland. Ustick, of course, (inaudible) big time. Meridian City Council Joint Meeting /Workshop January 7, 2008 Page 18 of 18 De Weerd: Madame Chair just to wrap up. I guess we are expecting the TLIP to go through the city (inaudible) by next week? Is that what (inaudible--)? (Inaudible discussion) De Weerd: And when is draft "b" going to be available in the five year plan? Levihn: Actually draft "b" I will talk to the Commission this Wednesday and we will see how much effort we need to do. I can't give you 100 percent - I would hope in two weeks, something like that. De Weerd: And then if we could have our staff maybe work with you to get better numbers, you know, for a kind of square mile model, urban verses suburban or land use kind of scenario would certainly help us in our fiscal modeling as well. So we can be better partners to you. Levihn: I will look into what can be done on that. (Inaudible discussion) McKee: Thank you. Item 5. Other (time permitting) MEETING ADJOURNED AT 1:30 P.M. (TAPE ON FILE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS) APPROVED: ~-I ~ 15 , 0$ TAMMY WEERD, MAYOR DATE APPROVER ~~~ ~, ~,U `, ~ o = ATTESTED: dom. ~` _ j, A JAYCE L. HOLMAN, CITY~L I~ 7 `~ ,, r 1s~ • .~ ~.- /',,,',-~~~1/~IJI11 tlllllllll```\