HomeMy WebLinkAboutMarch 6, 2008 P&Z MinutesMeridian Planning & zoning
March 6, 2008
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B. Approve Minutes of February 21, 2008 Planning and Zoning
Commission Meeting:
C. Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law for Approval..: CUP
08-001 Request for a Conditional Use Permit to operate a Daycare
Center from an existing home in an R-8 zoning district for
Blairmore Pre-school and Daycare by Annette Reed - 3150 N.
Blairmore Way:
Moe: Next item on the agenda is the Consent Agenda. On that agenda there are three
items, which would be the February 7th, 2008, Planning and Zoning Commission
meeting minutes. ~ Also, the February 21st, 2008, Planning and. Zoning Commission
meeting minutes, And, then, the third item would be the Findings of Fact and
Conclusions of Law for approval of CUP 08-001 for Blairmore Pre-school and Daycare.
Is there any discussion or questions? Could I get a motion to accept the Consent
Agenda as noted?
O'Brien.: So moved..
Marshall: Second.
Moe: It has .been moved and seconded to approve the Consent Agenda. All those in
favor signify by saying aye. Opposed same sign? That motion carries.
MOTION CARRfED: ALL AYES.
Moe: Next item on the agenda, before we get started, if there is some folks out here
that have not been to our public hearings, I want to just kind of give you an overview of
what will happen. I can see lots of faces I have seen before, so you have heard it
again. Basically, what will happen, I will open the Public Hearing, at which time staff will
go over the -- and review the projects in whole and., basically, with the conditions and
whatnot that they put on the project and just give a brief overview of the project. After
that the applicant will have 15 minutes to, basically, come up and explain and kind of
sell the Commission, per se, on the project. After they have done their presentation --
there are sign-up sheets in the back, if you wanted to speak to any of the projects
tonight, you could sign up out there. Each person signed up will get three minutes to,
basically, explain their views on the subjects, after which time all the people on the sign-
up sheets are done, if there is anyone else in the audience that would like to speak to
that, they will be given the opportunity and three minutes as well. After all that is done,
then, the applicant will be given time to rebut any comments that were made in the
public portion of that. That's pretty much that in a nutshell.
Item 4: Public Hearing: AZ 07-016 Request for Annexation and Zoning of
224.29 acres from RR to R-2 zone (45..14 acres) and R-8 zone (179.16
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March 6, 2008
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acres) for Castle Rock by Providence Development Group., LLC -south
of East Amity Road and west of South Eagle Road:
Item 5: Public Hearing: PP 07-020 Request for Preliminary Plat approval
consisting of 794 residential building lots and 86 common /other lots on
181.11 acres in proposed R-2 and R-8 zones for Castle Rock by
Providence Development Group, LLC -south of East Amity Road and
west of South Eagle Road:
Item 6: Public Hearing: PUD 07-001 Request for approval of a Planned Unit
Development for deviations from district requirements to provide an
opportunity for exemplary site development for Castle Rock by
Providence Development Group, LLC -south of East Amity Road and
west of South Eagle Road:
Moe: So, at this time I would like to -- I would say reopen -- well, no, this is a new one,
then. Open the Public Hearing for AZ 07-016 and PP 07-020 and the PUD 07-001 for
Castle Rock and hear the staff report, please.
Hood.: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission. As you noted, the project is
familiar, although this is a brand new Public Hearing, noticed as such for this meeting
tonight. Here in just a second I will run through some of the changes that have occurred
in the recent past to the project. Just to -- to reorient you again, the site is located on
the west side of South Eagle Road between Amity and Lake Hazel. The property
consists of 224.29 acres. It's currently zoned R-R in Ada County. Now, that 224 acres
is the entire annexation area and I will get into the breakdown here in just another
second.. The adjacent land uses are to the north. There is a portion right here that's
approved for White Bark Subdivision. They haven't broke ground as far as I know, but
that was approved for zoning of R-4. There is some other rural residences in agriculture
in the area zoned RUT in Ada County. To the east is Eagle Road.. On the other side of
Eagle Road some single family homes on large rural parcels. Most of it's being used for
agricultural purposes, zoned R-R in Ada County. To the south are some single family
homes on large rural parcels, again, zoned R-R. To the west are single family homes
on large parcels, zoned R-R and R-1. The existing Black Rock Subdivision was a
county subdivision approved on the bluff there. That is building out today. The
Comprehensive Plan designation for the site is shown on the map. This is the
designation that was in effect at the time that the applicant submitted the application.
As you can see, there is about -- it's about half and half. It's about 104 acres, roughly,
of the low density residential, which is the green, and about 120 acres that is medium
density. So, more of the yellow -- kind of shows up as orange on this map. Variety.
So, not quite half and half on the future land use map. The applications include three.
There is an annexation and zoning, again, of 224 acres. The applicant is requesting
two zones, an R-2 zone of 45 acres and the R-8 zone includes 179 acres. There is a
preliminary plat that consists of 794 single family residential building lots. Now, this is
the original or the old preliminary plat. I'm going to just quickly move to the revised one
while I read you some of the updated information. Again, 794 single family residential
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building lots on 182 acres in the proposed R-2 and R-8 zoning districts. So, if you
notice, we went down from 224 acres to 182 acres. So, about 40 acres is the area of
the Black Rock which is not being re-subdivided or part of the subject preliminary plat.
There is also a planned unit development for deviations from the R-8 district
requirements pertaining to lot size, street frontage, and building setbacks. Now, here is
the history that I promised you,. And a lot of this was also in the staff report that staff
prepared. I should mention I'm pinch hitting this evening for Sonya, she's -- she's out of
commission and so I am going to be presenting her projects this evening. But this was,
for the most part, in her staff report that she prepared., but I'm going to read it into the
record. The project was originally heard by the Commission on December 6, 2007. At
that meeting the Commission recommended denial of the project to the City Council,
primarily because the density didn't meet the intent of the Comprehensive Plan and the
Commission wanted larger lots on the perimeter. Prior to the Council meeting revisions
were made by the applicant to the plans to reflect some of the Commission's concerns
as follows: The number of building lots was decreased from 847 to 789. Open space
was decreased from 41.6 acres to 38.84 acres. And the overall density of the plat was
reduced from 4.65 dwelling units per acre to 4.33 dwelling units per acre. The density
of the platted area designated for low density residential was originally 4.48 dwelling
units per acre and the revised plat depicted a density of 3.5 dwelling units per acre.
Now, I don't expect you to memorize all these. In fact, I gave you a handout with this
exact same information, just detailing the changes in density between the three versions
that we will go through and, hopefully, the applicant can help explain some of the
changes, too, as this is progressed. At the Council hearing on January 22nd, 2008, the
Council reviewed the revised plans and voted to remand the project back to the
Commission, Since that Council meeting the applicant has revised the plans again.
Revisions made to the plat since the Council meeting are as follows: The number of
building lots has increased from 789 to 794, a net decrease from the original plan of 53
lots. Open space increased from 38.84 acres to 39.86 acres, a decrease from the
original plan of 1.74 acres of open space. The city park was relocated from a central
location within the development in the medium density designated area to the west
boundary of the plat adjacent to Black Rock Subdivision and the low density designated
area. And the overall density of the plat area increased from 4.33 dwelling units per
acre to 4.38 dwelling units per acre, a decrease in the original. density of .7 dwelling
units per acre. The applicant has also made some revisions to the design guidelines for
this project. Since I didn't have a chance to go through those today, I would ask maybe
that the applicant highlight not only the major changes that I just mentioned with the
park and some of the larger lots on the bluff, but maybe go into some of those details
with the changes to the design guidelines, too. I think Sonya has incorporated most of
those into her staff report, but I was not aware of what those changes were. So, I'm
going to explain -- the Council did remand this back to the Commission and ask for the
Commission to specifically consider or review the following items -- and it's not
necessarily limited to these items, but this is what they were hoping you would maybe
give them some insight into. Make a new recommendafion based on the revised plat.
Consider the traffic impact of this development on Eagle Road between the site and the
interchange, specifically the Eagle-Victory intersection. And I may just pause there for
one second.. We did get a memo or a letter from Gary Inselman at Ada County Highway
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District fihanking the applicant. They did make a 300,000 dollar donation to, hopefully,
keep and facilitate the intersection improvements at Eagle and Victory, to keep that
intersection in the plan for 2010 is when it's scheduled to be reconstructed and
improved.. So, they did make a substantial donation to the highway district in that
regard.. And number three is to consider not only the maintenance, but the ownership of
the coved areas and who has the right to do or not do what within the covered areas.
think that was a concern also of the Commission at the last hearing, so they seemed to
have some similar concerns there. And number four was reconsideration of the revised
densities in relation to the Comprehensive Plan and recently approved south Meridian
area plan. And, finally, consider requiring South Carlyle Way to stub to the east
boundary across the Ten Mile Creek for interconnectivity upon future development of
the property across the creek. So, Carlyle is this road right here and it currently
terminates right there into this T intersection. They asked the Commission to look into
that. I don't think Sonya made a formal recommendation on that. I will maybe want to
develop the presentation if the Commission wants staff to maybe give some more
analysis on that, I can try to -- we can maybe walk through that together. So, a
summary of the proposed streets, the entrance into this site is from an existing street
that was constructed for the Black Rock portion of the subdivision, with the intent that
the remainder open space area that's platted in the county would some day be re-
subdivided and also use Taconic Drive, that is the only access into the site at this time.
I mentioned there is a project that's been approved up here. They have not constructed
anything yet. The fire department is limiting the amount of homes that are -- that access
this road to 50 overall and that does include the Black Rock, until some other secondary
access can be provided somewhere, so -- I'm getting a little crazy with the pointer. But
to some other location, they want to have some other way in there. So, we would be
limited to 50 and that's included in the staff report as well. The landscaping, there is
21.7 percent or 39.86 acres on the site proposed for open space, including an 8.8 acre
park proposed to be dedicated to the city, which is right here. There is a development
agreement that staff is proposing for this project. It's on pages 11 and 12 of the staff
report. I'm not going to run through all of those. It basically ties the applicant to the
things that they are proposing and also is consistent with the conditions that staffs
looking for regarding some things, such as multi-use pathways, that number of 50
homes, things like that. So, I won't spend any time really going through those. And,
then, some -- some older history on this site. Back in 2006 there was an application
submitted to the city for a project called Black Rock Castle Greens and it was the same
acreage, 224. The gross density was 3.61 dwelling units per acre. That application
was denied by the City Council. And, then, I already mentioned that Black Rock was
previously platted in the county. I do have some elevations. Actually, before we jump
to elevations let me just real quickly go between the three plats. There isn't a lot of
change that I can tell between what you reviewed and made a recommendation on,
which is the plat that's on the screen now, and the next one, which is the one that the
city was looking at when they remanded it back. And the applicant can sure help me
out if I'm off base or miss something that's -- that's certainly more important. The main
difference that I can see is the homes that are directly on the down side of that bluff --
oops, went the wrong way -- have increased in size, as well as some of the other lots --
it kind of transitions as you -- as you move in. I don't really see any other -- and this is
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March 6, 2008
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kind of how I figured it out, I was just kind of going back and forth like that and those
were the main changes that -- the main change that I saw between the first two. So, if
you have any questions we can sure -- maybe could direct those to the applicant, since
we didn't, as staff spend much time on that revised plan either. It was sent to the -- to
the City Council and what we are focusing our attentions on for this staff report is, in
fact, the revised plat, which, again, where the park was here, it's now moved into this
location. In the staff report, too, Sonya has -- and I think the applicant even provided
average densities or average lot sizes, excuse me, for the lots that are within the two
Comp Plan designations of low and medium. So, they have broken it out to what the
density is there. There is the landscape plan. You can see some of the cooing
concepts. It shows up I think a little bit better, maybe, on the site plan.. Here is some of
the build to setback lines. Again, I'll let the applicant spend more time if they have seen
fit to explain their concept -- overall concept for this development. We went through a
lot of that last time. Some alley-loaded product here. There is a product exhibit that
has been submitted. There are -- I thought there was a number of -- the applicant's
proposing to construct custom homes on the seven lots in the R-2, so the seven that are
up on the bluff, basically, with the Black Rock lots. The applicant is proposing four
different types of single family detached dwelling units within this development to
promote diversity and choice in housing type. So, that's what the other colors are on
here are those remaining product types and I'm going to just quickly -- again, a lot of
these, if not all of them, are the same elevations that we looked at before., if there are
some changes now on the design guidelines, again, hopefully, the applicant can help
me out a little bit with those, but these are your -- the Legend series. Cottage series
here. Village or alley loaded. We have received some letters of testimony on this
project. A few from the applicant. Larry Wickham and Debbie Wickham have both
provided letters. Jerry Smith. Russell Fulcher submitted a letter, as well as another e-
mail this evening., which you should probably have. I had on my desk, so you probably
should have a copy of that. And Martin Fabricius, yes, and I'm sorry for butchering your
name. Fabricius. So, we received those letters. And as I mentioned, we also received
revised comments from the Ada County Highway District, which I briefly mentioned in
the memo. Staff is recommending approval of the subject project and I will stand for
any questions you may have.
Moe: Thank you very much, Caleb. Any questions at this time for staff?
Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair, I have one.
Moe: Commissioner Newton-Huckabay.
Newton-Huckabay: Caleb, you mentioned about the 300,000 dollar donation to Ada
County Highway District and your words were that it would,, hopefully, keep the project
on the plan.. Do we have any confirmation that it will continue to keep the Victory and
Eagle Road project in the 2009 plan?
Hood: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Newton-Huckabay, I did not get that impression from
the memo that Gary signed here. I can -- it says this will go a long way in providing
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ACRD incentive to begin the construction of this project in 2010 as currently planned.
It says: While ACRD cannot insure the timing of a project beyond the current budget
year, the donation helps, so --
Newton-Huckabay: Is it a donation in the sense that ACRD could use it on another
project if they so choose?
Hood.: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Newton-Huckabay, I don't know that that's the case.
The applicant would probably --
Newton-Huckabay: They are going like this.
Hood: They are shaking their heads no. So, I don't know that information, but, yeah,
they are indicating no.
Rohm: Good question, though.
Moe: Any other questions?
Marshall: I do. You were saying that there is -- the development to the north is called
White Rock?
O'Brien: Black Rock.
Marshall: No. No. To the north. It was White something.
Hood.: White Bark.
Marshall: White Bark. I assume that's up in this area up in here you're saying?
Hood.: Correct.
Marshall: Will there be connectivity? Will this --
Hood: Yeah. Mr. Chair, Commissioner Marshall, there is interconnectivity through that
stub street and eventually that will go up to Victory Road. So, when the two projects are
built out there will be interconnectivity between the two.
Marshall: Amity Road.
Hood: Amity. Excuse me.
Marshall: And White Bark is under construction now currently?
Hood: They have received preliminary plat approval. I have not driven out there.. I do
not know if they are leveling ground or have begun any type of construction out there.
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Marshall: But they are ahead of this project.
Hood: Yes.
Marshall: Okay.
Moe: Thank you. Any other questions?
O'Brien: I have one, Caleb. Is there -- when is the plan for widening Eagle Road from
Victory to Amity Road? It seems like that's still going to be the bottleneck.
Hood: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, if you can give me a minute, I don't have that off the
top of my head. I can sure look it up in ACHD's report. I'm sure it's there. Let me just
look it up. And the applicant may even know. I will get that information for you.
O'Brien: Okay. Thanks.
Moe: Any other questions?
O'Brien: No further.
Moe: Would the applicant like to come forward., please?
Armstrong: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, my name is Jerry Armstrong.
701 Allen Street, Meridian, Idaho. And I'm currently the vice-president of planning and
land development for Provident Development Group.. I'd like to start our presentation in
kind of explaining to you that the last time we were before you your recommendation
was for denial, because we had requested that you move it onto City Councih We got
some of the monetary issues straightened out, so we got a time extension on our -- on
our land take down.. So, we are back before you to work through and try to solve some
of the design issues. So, what you see this evening is a solution that has evolved from
your comments and so we have incorporated all those in -- in this new design, as well
as tried to incorporate all the comments that we received at the Public Hearing before
the City Council. So, going from the original plan that you saw, we have gone -- we
have reduced the density from 848 lots down to 794. So, that gives you a total units per
acre from 4.66 to 4.38. We have decreased some of the open space and that was
because of the desire to have larger lots around the perimeter. In addition, we have
added an additional housing type, which are custom homes, so that the custom homes
will be adjacent to those homes that are built up on Black Rock based on the
neighborhood comments. We have also updated the design guidelines to reflect that,
as well as instead of two signalized intersections, which we had one at Taconic and
Amity and Eagle, we have worked out the deal with ACRD -- and I'll give you more
information on that -- at Amity and Victory, which was a desire of the City Council. In
addition to that, we are adding front yard landscaping on all the lots. So, this is what
you saw the last time we were in front of you. I wanted to share with you the major
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change -- change was the objective of the parks. They wanted the neighborhood park
more centrally located to the entire square mile. So, we moved the neighborhood park
from this location here over to here, which is exactly a half mile, half mile. And the other
thing it does is it -- these large homes up on Black Rock visually will be more separated
from the rest of the development. In addition to that, the comments that the parks had
in the early one was that we had houses along one side of the park, so we removed all
those houses from direct backing up to the park. In addition, the park went from seven
acres up to 8.8 acres, which is a larger contribution the city. So, we removed 54
buildable lots. We have placed the larger lots along the perimeter for transition. So, all
these in this color that you see, we just didn't do it on one side of the street, we did it on
both sides of the street. That's why they have this color -- are all quarter acre lots.
Next. In the Comprehensive Plan the other issue that was brought up last time was the
density that we maintain outside of the Black Rock community in this green area less
than three units per acre. That was your recommendation from this body. We did that.
We are down at 2.98 acre -- or units per acre in this area. And we moved that park into
that area. In addition to that., what we have proposed is down here, which is 614 acres
in this area, which comes out to a density of five units per acre. So, the overall density
is 4.3. Just so, you know, if you take this green area here at three units per acre, which
is allowed, plus eight in this area here, the total allowed in our development is 1,246.
So, we are only asking for 794 overall. You remember the coving concept, which we
are retaining that concept, so we can have more open space and more variety of
housing and facade modulations. So, we have retained that in this design. You will see
those green areas in here as part of our coving scheme. So, what it does is it gives an
appearance of more open space. What does coving do? It adds curb streets, a variety
of setbacks., facade modulation, increased open space, as well as decreasing roadway
and maintenance costs. We have got about 25 percent less roadway than we had in
the first proposal that we brought to you. We have reduced public utilities for more
efficient delivery and it actually promotes more sustainable development. These cove
areas we were discussed as being -- they will be landscaped by the developer prior to
closing of any of the homes. All cove areas will be owned and maintained by the
individual property owners. The cove areas will also receive special attention in the
CC&Rs, which we control. As well as weekly monitoring by the property management
firm to insure the upkeep of these unique lots, because it really affects the appearance
of the community. Here is a new diagram. This shows this cove coming up around
here and you can see what that does, it really adds to the overall open space of those
streets, so the houses are not right along the street. The other thing it does is it gives
you a variety. We colored in the garages in the yellow color, so you can see the variety
of -- of how they are located on the side, as well as the brown, which are the front --
firont porches on all the homes that will set in this -- this space. So, you can see you
really get a variety in the -- in the street scene. Landscaping -- sod and sprinklers will
be installed in the front yard prior to closing of every house in the development. The
homeowner will be responsible for a minimum of one tree and five shrubs in the front
yard within 30 days of closing, as required by CC&Rs. We will also offer an entire
variety of full landscaping packages. On the architecture, we are offering
comprehensive design guidelines, which are a part of our development agreement, so
we can't change those. We have housing diversity. We now have the four distinctive
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housing types with the emphasis on front porches and corner elevation, as well as the
facade modulation. The custom home sites, as I'm showing in this diagram, are
outlined here. They are approximately one quarter acre lots around the perimeter.
believe that was the direction that we were given from this particular body to do that, as
well as embedding this neighborhood park, so we have more open space. And within
the custom home series we will have two different kinds of housing types or
possibilities. The Hubble Signature series, as well as custom builder partnership, so
people can go in there and do a -- custom build their homes. They will be a higher end
product with upgraded architecture, a minimum of ten percent brick and stone accents
are required. A minimum of three material types on all the front elevations. Living
spaces and porches will be extended towards the street beyond the garage, so that the
garage is not dominant. Cottage lot architecture includes fireplaces, bay windows, and
other architectural features. This is -- it shows you some of the typical elevations of that
product. The Legend neighborhood, which is shown here in the yellow, is right here and
it's around these open spaces, so it faces out into all open areas within the Legend.
This is a typical Legend neighborhood where it's predominately -- you will see porches
out in front of the garages. It will have special architectural features such as columns
and balustrades and they will all have porches out on the front of those homes. As the
distinctive lifestyle floor plan, we will have. unique and upgraded architecture. We will
start at 1,200 square feet to 3,500 square feet. Upgraded corner lot elevations. So, all
corner lots will be required to have pop-outs, as well as upgraded elevations facing any
open space and those will all be sitting on the larger lots. This is an example of the
elevations showing different materials. This is the vertical siding, the horizontal siding,
as well as the board and bat, with shutters and, then, you see some of the features on
the columns with the -- with the stone. On the corner elevation we will have the pop-
outs of the porch wrapping around the side. We will have the chimneys exposed on the
outside of the house, as well as windows in the end wall, as well as pop-outs of bays on
the housing. On the Cottage neighborhood -- this is a whole new series for us, so this
neighborhood will be located right in this area here on the street cooing. This is a
typical Cottage neighborhood. Again, the house and the living space and the front
porch will come out in front of the garage. And this -- our entirely new series we will
start at 900 square feet to 2,400 square feet, with patios and living spaces all extending
towards the street beyond the garage plane, with extensive facade modulation and a
variety of architectural styles. The key to this -- if you look at a typical street scene, we
noted that the garages are in the yellow, so they are really set back from the street and
as you move down the street they are not all lined up in a row. You can see that the
living spaces are all punched out in front of that garage space, so you have unique
architecture out in front of the garage space itself, so all the living and porches will
extend out in front. These are the typical elevations. Those portions here are the part
that sticks out in front of the garage elevation. The traditional Village is our alley-loaded
series. This will have a unique architecture. Again, the porch is facing the street, so
you get a better scale. Living spaces are oriented to the side yards and we will offer
single and two story plans. As you can see in this plan, the living unit is all off to the
side, so it's into the side yards. Transportation is really key. What we have agreed to is
by the 50th lot we will have the access through White Bark Subdivision. I think that was
a question you all had, which will go to Amity Road. The site is located within bicycling
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March 6, 2008
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distance, three miles, of the major employment and commercial developments on Eagle
Road. We have on-site recreational opportunities, which will actually reduce the vehicle
trips per day generated by the development. We have the possibility of the shuttle
service being operated by St. Luke's. We have met with them and other major
employers in the -- in the vicinity. It's also -- we are providing a future Valley Ride
transit stop that will be located on Eagle Road. This shows you what we have agreed
to. We have agreed to fully pay for the Eagle -Taconic full signalization intersection at
the 400th lot. We will install at the 127th lot an interim signal at Eagle and Amity. And
our latest negotiation was a 300,000 dollar voluntary contribution to insure that the
construction is done in 2010. They don't get the 300,000 unless they build it in 2010.
That was our negotiation with them and we have that in letter form. Just so you know,
other than those improvements, in addition to that, 794 houses in here based on current
impact fees, will give to the Ada County Highway District almost 2.1 million dollars on
top of all the other improvements that we are doing. Open space amenities at 39.86
acres of open space that does not count the cooing. The city park is larger at 8.8 acres,
which is an outright donation. Village green, other pocket parks, gazebos, this is a
walk-able, health oriented community. We also have the Beasley Lateral linear park, as
well as we have committed to landscape barriers along Ten Mile Creek and along the
spine road leading up to Black Rock. We are also providing recreational opportunities
for all ages. This is our trail system and connectivity. You can see along here the
green we have committed to a ten foot wide regional path. Originally it just came down
to here and stopped... It was the desire of the Council to go ahead and wrap that on
around. So, we have committed to extend that clear to Eagle Road in case this property
doesn't get developed for awhile. We have -- the key to this neighborhood park -- and
we have worked with the parks department -- is to make it centrally located to the
overall square mile. There will be unique opportunities, based on topograpfiy not found
at other Meridian parks. We have some 30 to 40 foot drop off here. The one that they
saw during this last snow storm was the opportunity to turn this into a sleighing venue
for young people, as well as skiing. This is the total amount of money that that's worth
at 8.8 acres at today's cost of 125,000 per acre. We are donating a total of 1.4 million
dollars and we will include all the turf and sprinkling system. In addition to that, with the
794 lots, we will create at 1,384 dollar impact fees per lot, we will be donating to the
parks 1.1 million dollars in addition to that just in impact fees. So, more than pay for the
development. We have these landscape buffers again that we have committed to along
Taconic on the spine road, as well as the separation here at Ten Mile Creek. This is a
typical neighborhood park, pocket parks, other amenities. The other question was what
were we doing for this connection. We have agreed to put in a 42 foot wide access
easement in favor of the Fulcher family, so they have connection across that creek in
the future to connect that land, so they don't have to go out onto Eagle Road. We would
like to thank you for your favorable consideration and we will just open it up for any
questions. We agree with the staff report and their recommendation for approval.
Thank you.
Moe: Thank you., sir. A couple questions I have got for you. I was kind of curious on
the cooing and the landscaping, per se, on the -- on the outside of the sidewalk area,
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March 6, 2008
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you're saying that that would also be the homeowners' responsibility to take care of as
well?
Armstrong: Yeah. You want to go back to that -- can we go back to the cove -- yeah.
Right now the way it is in any development is if you have a sidewalk out here ~-- this is a
traditional kind of -- it's always up to the homeowners to care for that land that's in that
public right of way. So, that doesn't change. It's the same.
Moe: My biggest concern is you're going to have larger areas there and you're going to
have one neighbor to the other isn't going to anticipate doing their mowing at the same
time and so you're going to have -- that's going to look kind of rag tag all the time over
there and I noted in your presentation you said that you guys are going to review that,
but that's going to be kind of tough for --
Armstrong: Well., we are going to manage that with the property management and the
other thing, just so you know, it's just like having a large lot on quarter acre lots, they will
have lawns just in front of them that looks just like that. It's the same depth. So, the
point of it is, you know, I live in -- in Riverside Village, which has this similar concept
where we have the deeper lots like this, you know. I only mow on Saturday, because
can't afford to hire anybody, and my neighbor mows on Tuesday and the other one
mows on Friday, but it all blends together, it all looks really nice. You know, we won't let
these people let their lawns go un-mowed for a week and they just all tie together in the
landscaping. We are going to be landscaping it, so it all does flow and tie together.
Moe: Other than you have made the comment that the homeowner will be responsible
for the tree that goes in the front of yard, so that tree could actually be on the outside
portion in the cove area, as opposed to back on their yard area as well?
Armstrong: They can. We will go ahead -- we are going to landscape everything in this
cove area. There is the cove line right there.,. right up to the house. We are going to go
ahead and landscape that area there. What we said by that is -- is that when that house
closes, that landscaping has to be in. That's what we are saying. In other words, they
can't close on their house without that landscaping.
Moe: No. I understand. I guess where I'm going -- I'm going a whole different direction
and that is you get too many trees out there on the outside of the cove and give it a few
years to start growing and whatnot, and I think some of the aspect of the cove was so
you can kind of see through the neighborhood, but at that point you got trees in the way,
so, you know, fire and police are going to have a hard time reviewing what's going on in
the neighborhood as well if you have so many trees out there on the outside area of the
cove. That's where I'm going at.
Armstrong: But the whole point of it is this front yard here is not any -- any larger than --
than what you would like to see on quarter and half acre lots. I mean it's the same
situation. You're going to have trees out there and you're going to have lawn out there.
It doesn't change that.
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March 6, 2008
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Moe: Okay. And, then, one more that I have. You mentioned the -- the 42 foot
easement -- the right of way for the Fulcher property. Is that where the Carlyle --
Carlyle Way is that goes across?
Armstrong: Yeah. Here is Carlyle right here.
Moe: Right.
Armstrong: And it's right there.
Moe: Okay.
Armstrong: So, that was one that was on this list of the five or six items that the City
Council had --
Moe: That's correct. That's what I was checking. Okay. Anyone else? Mr. Marshall?
Marshall: I just have a question. Back to the cooing again. I'm kind of a fan of cooing,
but I am concerned about the ownership of this when it gets back out of the right of way.
If you're back behind the right of way, that's now on private property and it's supposed
to be a public sidewalk. So, will the right of way move back behind the sidewalk or will
there be a permanent easement on the sidewalk that allows all the public right of way or
something?
Armstrong: Well, the way -- the way Ada County Highway District works today, whether
it's a traditional neighborhood or not, whether it -- whether that sidewalk sits in a right of
way or not, the homeowner is responsible for keeping the snow off that and the upkeep
of that sidewalk in front of their home.
Marshall: I realize that.
Armstrong: Whether it's in the right of way or it's not in the night of way, so -- so --
yeah. It's basically a license agreement with the property owner and they take all the
liability and responsible if -- if there is -- if it heaves up or anything like that, they have to
replace it.
Marshall: Right. But --
Armstrong: Whether it's in the right of way or not.
Marshall: As a neighbor I have a right to walk down that sidewalk --
Armstrong: Absolutely.
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March 6, 2008
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Marshall: -- because it's in the public right of way. But when it gets into somebody's
private yard, they can kick me off of it.
Armstrong: No. No. This -- this sidewalk will remain public -- in the public realm.
Marshall: Okay. As long as it stays within the public right of way --
Armstrong.: Right.
Marshall: -- I can understand that. But once it's on private property -- I may be wrong,
but I think they have a right to kick me off their private property. If they don't like my
dog, get off my property.
Moe: Mr. Marshall, I think we have a comment from --
Baird: Mr. Chair and Commissioners and Commissioner Marshall, ACRD does have a
provision that they would require license agreements to be in place -- in fact, we are
doing a similar thing with the new City Hall construction across the street. Part of the
public sidewalk is going to be on land that is actually not in the right of way and in order
for us to build that sidewalk, ACHD needs to see that license first, so that it will be open
to the public. So, we are anticipating that same requirement would be applied to these
sidewalks. It's a good question.
Armstrong: Absolutely.
Moe: Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you very much.
Armstrong: Thank you.
Hood: Mr. Chair?
Moe.: Yes.
Hood: Maybe before you open this up for the rest of the public's testimony, I can
answer Commissioner O'Brien's question about Eagle Road, when that was going to be
widened. In ACHD's staff report, it says Eagle Road between Amity and Lake Hazel is
planned in the CIP to widened to five lanes between 2019 and 2027. So, there is some
horizon time out there.
O'Brien: I was talking specifically between Amity Road and Victory.
Moe: Victory -- it's got the Ridenbaugh Canal to Victory is in 2009. And then, again, the
section between Amity and Lake Hazel is further out. It doesn't have the section further
to the north in the staff report.
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March 6, 2008
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Moe: Thank you, Caleb. On the first name on the sign-up sheet would be Martin
Fabricius. When you do come up, if you would state your name and address, I would
appreciate it.
Fabricius.: Mr. Chairman., Members of the Commission, my name is Martin Fabricius.
My wife and I own five acres in the Upiano Subdivision, which borders on this area. Our
address is 1800 East Suzan Drive. I'm not an accomplished public speaker and for that
apologize. As you have noted before, I have been writing letters on this issue. I got
kind of caught up this time and didn't have the seven day required waiting period and
that's why I'm here this evening. If you read my letters you know I am very much
opposed to any development in this area. I think I have even stated that if I had my way
there wouldn't be another house built in the entire valley until we got on top of this -- this
infrastructure problem we have. I hear a lot of promises being made on what's going to
be done with these roads, but it's a long ways down the road and as I look at that first
map, I don't understand all the number of units and the size of units and all that. I'm
sorry you lost me on that. But I see a lot of units in that proposed development that are
going to spill out onto Eagle Road and to Amity eventually. As I look there now, those
roads probably appear pretty much like they did in the 1930s and 1940s, except maybe
some blacktop and a few stop signs, and if you go out northwest of Meridian where
there has been extensive development out in that area, I don't see any road
improvements out there. I just don't see them, folks. They are not there. And what we
end up with is a lot of crowded roads. We keep adding more lanes to our freeway and
by the time developments like this come in we will have to be looking for another
freeway somewhere else. I guess other than being opposed to it, my property in the
Upiano Subdivision consists of five acres, as are all tracts in there, and the value to my
property is the open space and the view. And anything that's done in here is going to
detract from that. And I have already been down the road on this property on a couple
of issues, not -- we moved there in 1993. Shortly thereafter there was a proposed
gravel pit and asphalt plant right across the fence from us and, of course, I had to
oppose that. We hired a lawyer. I was out 3,000 dollars, as were most members in the
community. And Imade apromise -- it wasn't a threat. I said the day you start turning
dirt for that asphalt plan, you're going to be in court. And I meant every word of it. And
think what -- how I'm going to have to approach this thing here is because we can't
subdivide in Upiano Subdivision unless there is agreement among all the property
owners. So, I'm stuck with my five acres. I keep livestock there and I can only imagine
what's going to happen when my cows get down there along the fence between the
subdivision. I have been through that once before. I had to move once before because
of this. I used to live over east of Meridian. And so I guess what I will have to do, if this
thing is going to go forward, I'm going to have to have my place appraised as is and,
then, I'll have it appraised after the fact and I'll probably just end up in court on it.
Apparently I don't have any recourse. I think that about sums up my comments.
appreciate your time. Thank you.
Moe: Any questions? Okay. Thank you very much. Next name is Pat Fabricius.
Okay. Thank you. From the audience she defers her time. Next name would be Carol
Jarvis.
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March 6, 2008
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Jarvis: My name is Carol Jarvis. I live at 1875 Susanne Drive, which is at the end of
the Upiano Subdivision and butts up against this property about 700 feet. I have been
wondering -- I notice that there is a line across the -- this line that comes across here.
Moe: There should be a pointer here at the mike for you.
Jarvis: Okay. When I -- I happened to be --and found out that that was the line of the -
- where the Meridian city area of impact ended. Has that changed? I mean I have to
assume it has, if you're dealing and making changes and you're making -- you're
approving things south -- south of that line. Do any of you know has that been
changed?
Moe: I do believe it has changed, yes. But we will get staff to ask that after the
question.
Jarvis: Okay. I also wonder -- I have been wondering for quite some time how many
lots there are in -- in -- that have already been approved, because every time you see a
field, you know, if not -- something's not going on there, you don't know if it's still in
private ownership, but I went to Planning and Zoning and got some maps and found
that along Victory between Locust Grove and Meridian - Kuna, there are almost 700 lots
in there and possibly more that are in the progress -- process of -- have been approved
and are to be built on in the not too distant future and right along Amity between Locust
Grove and Eagle Road there is several hundred more lots there that have already been
approved and some -- most of them have not -- only part of it has been -- actually
houses built on. Some of it's in preparation, some of it is just sitting there, it has not --
the ground has not been -- you know, they haven't even begun to put in streets or
anything. But that accounts to several hundred more lots. And, then, along -- at least a
hundred along Eagle Road on the east side and there is -- almost all of the area that
you're just looking at right there -- not all of it. There is two areas that are not -- and one
of them maybe is a park, so, anyway, that -- that's been my question. How many lots
are we going to have subdivided and people still -- I mean -- and they are just keeping
them go a head and putting in hundreds more, so -- I had some other points, but that's
my time, I'll abide by it, even though the man who was presenting did not abide by his
15 minutes.
Moe: Thank you very much. The next name on the list is Ray Eggleston.
Eggleston: Commissioners, my name is Ray Eggleston. I live at 12728 West
Merchison Street, which is the Rock Hampton Subdivision. I'm on the planning and
zoning committee, so I meet a lot with the Ada County Planning and Zoning. We have
taken into account also that there are a number of lots there that are already going to be
filled and fulfilled for the school districts in that area. Our concern is not only the
housing itself being substandard -- if you go in through any of Hubble developments --
know people live in them.. I have repaired some of the houses. I have got 43 years of
planning and zoning development experience. What our concern is is not today, it's not
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March 6, 2008
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only the lots that are available, but the housing in this subdivision, being small lots, 46
foot wide. Those coved areas, which are going to end up being parking lots, because
they don't have the area for car parking. You have a two car garage. Most of the
people are going to end up using those as storage areas, like most people do. You're
all going to end up -- I get nervous when I talk, so -- and also a part of our concern is
later down the road is a low priced, low standard subdivision. If you go through any of
their subdivisions around our area there. What's going to happen down the road when
they end up being -- low income families are going to move in there, because of the
price of the homes. They are going to have a lot of children. Those front yards are
going to end up being playgrounds for the children, which is going to make an access
for the roads. Another concern we have is down the road what's going to happen when
they turn into being rental houses, because if you look at the other subdivisions, which
my sister lives in one, the majority of the houses in their subdivisions that aren't empty
are rental homes. The subdivisions are going downhill pretty bad. And this is on Maple
Grove and Lake Hazel. This is our main concern is what's going to happen to the value
of our property within the area. We live in an upscale neighborhood. We were told at
the time when Black Rock went in there and was at the City Council, they were told
when that was approved that this was going to be all up-grade homes. And we went by
that. So, nothing was ever said,. Now that it's becoming Hubble Homes, which is a
lower standard even below Corey Barton -- and being a builder I know so -- this is our
testimony and this is the representation of Rock Hampton Subdivision planning and
zoning committee. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much. Dan -- is it Licksberry? Okay. From the audience he said
he's been spoken for. Justin Thief.
Thiel: My name is Justin Thiel and I live at 2308 East Hyper Drive. I am a resident of
Black Rock Subdivision. I was -- I have come here in opposition and I was going to
address three points. The first one is going to be roads and traffic. That's already been
belabored to this point. The second one was going to be schools and as a personal
note, when we purchased our lot in Black Rock we began the -- you know, the pursuit of
schools for our children and once we identified the school we contacted the school,
which was Lake Hazel Elementary. They told us that school was full and to contact the
district. So, we contacted the district, the district says we can -- we can bus your child
to the next closest school, which is another two -- I think two miles down the street. So,
you will drive right passed the school that's in your district -- or your district or boundary
and to the next one. Of course, that wasn't acceptable to us, so we kept our kids in
Boise School District, so -- my wife's a teacher, so she can take them to her school.
But, anyway, a project. this size generates enough kids to have its own school. It has
enough roof tops to generate a build out population almost the size of the city of McCall
and three times the size of the Horseshoe Bend -- of Horseshoe Bend. Just the city.
So, there is that many roof tops and that many people are going to be living in this area.
And I have a question as well. If you go to the -- the website, we have this south
Meridian comprehensive plan, the majority of that plan in that area shows low density.
There is a. small area for medium density right there. What I'm wondering is the
Commission works awfully hard on these plans, why would we deviate from the plan if
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March 6, 2008
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this is what you have decided upon? So, clearly, low density is not being addressed by
that particular plan. Pretty much everything else that I was going to address has been
addressed and I just hope that you guys will deny the proposal. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much. Don Cantrell.
Cantrell: Council members, I'm Don Cantrell. I guess I'm still -- anyway, I live there at
3000 East Lake Hazel. I have got the 30 acres here and I got these two lots here, as
well as this. So, my property butts up to this portion here. I did notice that the lots did --
had grown previously to the last. My concern, once again, was -- is people over here,
as we all know, we got the soccer fields. During the soccer on Saturday I anticipate
from my housing going down to Eagle Road approximately to get to this point from here
to hear is about a -- oh, about a 35, 40 minute stop, just because all the kids and all of
the traffic. Once again, the traffic issue for me is really considerable, because
everybody seems to come down Meridian Road down -- down to Lake Hazel, down to
here, which everybody -- excuse me -- down over to here, which everybody is doing
about 50 plus. Trying to get out of my parking lot in the morning is quite something
different. Once again, at this point you got a stop light and so everybody that comes
down here in the morning -- and there is an awful lot of traffic. I'm usually in my parking
stall there for, you know, three to four minutes trying to come out. At that particular
given junction, they are speeding to get to the stop light and, then,, when I pull out to that
point they are -- they are usually going around me, because they are in a hurry to get to
work. If, indeed, if we are talking about another 800 homes -- I have been in Meridian
since we have had 4,000 people. We went from, what, 4,000 to 72,000. So, you guys
have had a lot of infrastructure here. I tried to move out as far as I could, hoping to
alleviate most of the issues here, but, once again, they are here. With that being said,
right here, which I have cattle out in here, when the soccer kids are out -- or if people --
they come over here and park, they walk their dogs. The dogs are out there, usually
chasing my cattle. I got to get down on my four wheeler and chase the dogs away. I
had requested, if, indeed, if this ever has the potential of coming in, to have a fence line
along the property, so I didn't have the concern with the dogs, as well as the children
getting into the pasture and in the horses for the liability concern. As we all do know
that there is 1,564 homes for sale in Meridian right now. If, indeed, if we have got twice
as many as what's being considered here, how many more homes does that put on the
market as we speak? As well as, once again, the concern of the traffic. Where it used
to take me five, six minutes, 17 to 22 minutes most mornings now. The last snow storm
we had it was a 47 minute drive from here to Eagle Road because of the traffic. I thank
you for your time.
Moe: Thank you very much. Tim Foster.
Foster: Good evening. My name is Tim Foster. I live at 2678 West Crossland Drive in
Meridian. I own a lot in Black Rock Subdivision. And Mr. Thiel brought up the south
Meridian Planning and Zoning recommendation, the new map, which I was under the
assumption on February 22nd or 29th when the City Council met, that they actually
approved this newer map, which if that would be the case, then, pretty much anything
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March 6, 2008
Page 19 of 80
you wanted to do in there was -- is not -- you know, doesn't fit within what they had said.
But another thing that I wanted to point out that has really bugged me. And I know it's
the age old thing that money talks. They are putting out donations for this and
donations for that and point out how, oh, we did this for you guys and -- what, as
homeowners, can we do for you guys, then? I mean if that's the case -- money really
shouldn't matter. If they want to donate, that's great. You know, I'd love to have people
donate for the cause to do this or that, but they are donating with stipulations and, oh,
now we -- oh, you got a bigger park, so that's even more money. Well, yeah, okay, and,
yeah, you're going to get afl these taxes from them because of it, but, you know, I don't
say, oh, hey, you know what, I'll give you a hundred dollars if you don't do this and -- it's
the same thing. And in big businesses today it's -- you can't do that anymore. You can't
go, oh, well, here, I'll take you out to dinner, I'll get you this. It's not allowed., at least in
my line of work. We are frowned heavily against that. It's a big ethics thing. This to me
sounds like another big ethics deal. You know, if -- if they want to give a donation, that's
great, you know, and I love the fact of the park, I love the fact that they want to give this
to Meridian, because we can all use more parks, but to use it as a bargaining tool is --
you know, it's not right. It's -- you know, Bridgetower where I live now, we have got a
big park, we -- you know, we take care of it, but they didn't say, oh, you know, we will
give this to you guys if you give us our -- you know, what we want. They take care of it
themselves, so -- and as for the cooing aspect, which is a great idea, I do agree with the
concept of it, but the enforcing thing is one that really concerns me, because, you know
-- and.., like I said, I live in Bridgetower, we have extensive CC&Rs on -- you know, you
can't have trucks or this or that out and I have a neighbor that will not move his big utility
trailer out of his driveway, even though it's against our CC&Rs, he's not going to move
it. Who is to say any of these guys in there are going to listen to what, you know, the
management company has to say? You know, I would hope all of them do, but, you
know, if -- if my neighbor won't listen to ours, what's going to make, you know, all these
people listen to theirs? So, if -- if by chance this -- this P&Z recommendation or the new
plan isn't correct, I'd like to know, but that's pretty much all I have. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you very much. Well, I don't have any clue there. Any idea? Well, I'll tell
you what, I can't read the name here, so if there was someone else that had signed up,
please, come forward and tell me who it is and, if not, if there is anyone else that would
like to speak, just raise your hand and we will take you one at a time to come up and
speak. It starts with a J. That's all I can tell you. No one else to speak? Yes, sir, come
forward..
Sylvester: Hi. My name is Tom Sylvester. I live at 1910 South Marshwood Place in
Meridian. My concern is if -- do we have the picture of -- that shows the driveway, the
entryway to the subdivision that shows the landscaping there? When you -- when they
had the elevation of that, it shows about a nine foot berm with -- with heavily wooded
screens that go down both sides of that, so that it kind of shelters the -- or obscures the
homes from the --from the street view. I went and drove down that -- up and down that
a little bit ago. The berm is about three feet from the -- from the ground level up, so it's
about a third of the height that shows in the -- in the elevation of it. And the trees are
about one-third of what it showed in the picture as well. My concern is that the whole --
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
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the whole subdivision is going to be like this. That what they -- you know, it's a big song
and dance here and shows what a great subdivision it's going to be with the cooing and
with the park, but as I deliver around the valley, what I see Hubble promise and what
the actuality of it is are two different things. These subdivisions don't age well. In 20
years it's not something that -- that I don't think most people look back on with a lot of
pride in their neighborhood. I don't know why we have to put that there. I don't see the
attraction. It's been -- it's been shot down and shot down and shot down and they keep
trying to make it better and each time I think the things they do are better, but, I just wish
we could put a stake in the heart of this thing, because I don't think it's something that
Meridian could be proud of. And I think that what they are advertising is not what they
are actually coming through with. That's all I have.
Moe: Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to make a comment? Yes.
Taylor: My name is Tim Taylor. I live at 1488 East Blue Tick in Meridian. I have a lot in
Black Rock Subdivision and I have also done quite a few subdivisions as a developer. I
have a couple of questions to start with. Are -- are all of the lots required to have the
landscaping in place before they close? So, all phases, all lots? Great. And I
understand that the developer is going to do the landscaping in the coved areas. Those
are good things. Is there still a traffic lot planned for the entrance off of Eagle Road? A
traffic light? Okay. And I suppose that won't be there until they widen Eagle Road in
2027.
Moe: Are you going to address us or are you just --
Sylvester: Sorry. Sorry. My -- my other concern is, as Mr. Foster brought up, the --
the ability of the management company to monitor and -- and I guess enforce the
maintenance of the landscaped areas and the homes themselves, this developer does
have a good track record in their ability to have a management company that does that.
So, that is a huge concern. And other than that, I think they have made great progress
with their -- their homes and the design and the architectural materials. I think they
have made good strides in requiring that the landscaping is in place, but I have a
concern that they won't be able to manage that and control it, so is that a promise to get
it approved and, then, we end up, like other subdivisions of this developer, where even
though things are in the CC&Rs, they aren't enforced and we end up with a -- a
subdivision that our city could not be proud of. That's all.
Moe: Thank you. Anyone else in the audience that would like to come forward? Okay.
Great. Would the applicant like to -- you have already been up, sir. You can't come
back up. Would the applicant like to come up, please.
Hood: Mr. Chair, while the applicant's coming forward., if you want me to I can answer
a couple of the questions that were kind of directed at staff during that time.
Moe: I would like that, if you, please.
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March 6, 2008
Page 21 of 80
Hood: There was a question on the aerial that was up about the dotted purplish blue
line and, in fact, this area is outside of the city's area of impact. We have a couple of
other applications with Ada County trying to add some area to our area of impact, but
properties do not have to be within our area of impact to annex them, they just have to
be contiguous. So, this parcel is eligible for annexation, although it is not currently in
our area of impact. We are negotiating with Ada County. And, then, the Comp Plan
designation that the other gentleman -- and, I'm sorry, I didn't catch your name, but the
City Council just this last Tuesday did amend the future land use map and added more
low density residential to this site than what is currently shown on this map. However,
the applicant did submit their application when this was the Comp Plan that was in
effect. So, we evaluated it based on this plan and not the -- not the Comp Plan map
that was approved by resolution on Tuesday.
Moe: Okay. Thank you' very much. Mr. Armstrong.
Armstrong: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission, again, Jerry Armstrong. I
would like to address the Fabricius, I believe it was, talking about the ACHD and the
traffic problems out there and the number of units that are going to Amity. Just know
that the Ada County Highway District commissioners are the ones that approved and
recommended approval of this project. They are the stewards of the road system in
Ada County and they have approved of this project. Carol Jarvis had a concern about
the area of impact and I think staff explained that, that our property is adjacent to
annexed property, which is the White Bark Subdivision. Therefore, we can be -- request
annexation into the city. Also, the purpose of the area of impact, just so that everybody
understands that, that's an agreement with Ada County, which allows the city to go into
the planning phase or provide a Comprehensive Plan. You have done that. The
Comprehensive Plan that we are under, currently vest under, was approved by this
Commission and by the City Council in October of 2006. The other issue that was
talked about was whether or not it complies with the -- the newer Comprehensive Plan
that was just adopted on February 19th of '08 and I think we have a -- this is the south
Meridian study that was approved just February 19th, that's just last month, two, three
weeks ago. If you look at our .property on the low density, you take 180 acres that in the
green, there is three units per acre allowed in this study. For the 44.27, which is
medium density, which is reflected in the yellow, includes 44.27 acres. We are allowed
up to eight units per acre. And that's 354 units. So, the total is 894. Again, the number
of the housing units that you are allowed on the total land mass in this area under your
current one is 894. So, the number of trips -- and the issue is why you approved this
Comprehensive Plan was to limit the number of housing units on the roads in this area.
We comply with that. We are actually under, so it allows other people -- for you to
improve -- increase densities in other parts of this area in there. Ray Eggleston brought
up the issue of the school district. And could we have that other map? If you will notice,
within this one mile section that's shown here, right in here, just north of our site right in
here is designated a future potential school site. Within this one mile area here the
Meridian School District is providing for a new elementary school and the comment that
was made was our subdivision will take up an entire school. That's not true. According
to the Meridian School District, this one school will service all the approved units that
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 22 of 80
you have approved within that square mile. If it's -- if it goes out to that same density
that you allow on the ground and that's the way they plan schools. There is supposed
to be a new elementary school in every square mile. So, I think that takes care of that
issue. Also, Mr. Eggleston brought up the idea about the cooing being parking lots and
there wouldn't be adequate parking. In each of the driveways at all the houses there will
be two car parks in the driveway area, there will be two at the street curb side, so that's
four. Every house will have a minimum of a two car garage. That's two more. That's
six cars. Some owners will opt for a three car garage and it pushes it to seven. Also at
the ends of our streets we will also allow for additional parking. So, there is no need to
have parking lots on this site. The other issue that he brought up is -- was a previous
ownership of this ground had made a commitment for a different style of housing and,
obviously, if that were financially feasible, they would have moved forward with that
project. Instead, they sold it to us. Justin Thiel brought up the idea of roads and traffic.
Again, I believe those are under the purview of Ada County Highway District and they
have recommended approval. He also brought up the school site. I think we have
addressed that. We have addressed the latest Comp Plan. Again, Don Cantrell
brought up the same kinds of traffic issues and ACHD and, again, those are the people
that they need to get in front of to lodge their complaints about traffic congestion in this
area, because they are stewards of those -- those funds and we are contributing again
2.1 million dollars in impact fees to help with solving the traffic issues in this area. The
other issue that was brought up, let's see, here was -- I think we have just about -- oh, it
was a traffic light at Taconic and we are committed through the development agreement
to provide that signalization at the build out of the 400th lot. So, we are committed to do
that -- that light. There is no way to get out of that. The other thing that I wanted to
bring out is what's unique about this project -- the reason we proposed the design
guidelines -- and those become a matter of regulatory for the City of Meridian, we are
signing a development agreement, which includes those design guidelines, so we are
committed to do those. They can withhold building permits on us, they can do all kinds
of other things if -- if we don't comply with those design guidelines and with the
development agreement that we are about to sign for this. So, we have committed to
these design guidelines and the higher quality of architecture within the development.
And I hope that addresses I think all the issues, unless the Commission has other
questions that I didn't cover.
Moe: Mr. Armstrong, one thing that Don Cantrell also brought up, the -- discussing
fencing, that is between the project and his property on -- basically on the south side of
your property.
Armstrong: That was right along here, I believe.
Moe: Yes.
Armstrong: Yeah. We -- well, two things we are doing. One is are providing
connectivity to his property in case he ever chooses to develop it. If he wants fencing
along there, we'd certainly -- we can add that in. But we did all along his property add in
these quarter acre lots.
Meridian Planning 8 Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 23 of 80
Moe: Anyone else have any other questions?
Marshall: I do have a few little ones. One, back to the landscaping plan. And this is
just internal and just kind of interesting to me. There is this canal here, right? And you
got a little pond here. And I'm guessing it's been tiled up to the historic outlet up here; is
that correct?
Armstrong: Okay. Let me explain how this works. Currently there is a lateral that
comes in right here. 'It follows Taconic --
Marshall: Okay.
Armstrong: -- right here and goes right straight up north.
Marshall: Right.
Armstrong: What we are doing is with the project board of control, it's actually a
lateral --
Marshall: Uh-huh.
Armstrong: -- which is a lot smaller than a canal.
Marshall: Okay.
Armstrong: And we have chosen to relocate that, so it becomes a new waterway and
water feature through the project and will still serve the lands beyond., but we are going
to improve that with natural landscaping. We will have river rock in the bottom of it, but
it flows clear water.
Marshall: It flows a fairly good flow; right?
Armstrong: It's about -- I would say on an average the deepest I have ever seen it is
anywhere from 12 to 16 inches and it's probably, oh, three to four feet wide.
Marshall: Okay. So, you're going to probably have a trash rack here in the pond where
your -- you know, some coverage here where you're going to pipe it, you're going to the
it up to its historical outlet up there. I'm a little concerned about it being right next to a
tot lot.
Armstrong: Well, this is -- right in -- in this area -- yeah, it will be fairly close, but at that
point, if you take that deep water and you spread it out, it's only going to be maybe four
to six inches deep.
Marshall: Okay. My --
Meridian Planning 8~ Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 24 of 80
Armstrong: That's the idea of it. We are trying to create --
Marshall: I'm just thinking about three and four year olds in a tot lot --
Armstrong: Sure..
Marshall: That's where you're attracting the little kids.
Armstrong: Sure.
Marshall: I mean older kids are all right, but little kids right next to something that's
pouring in pretty -- I mean a lateral has got typically some decent flow. I mean it's -- you
know, I can wade through it, it's not going to knock me down, but a three or four year old
in a tot lot I'm pretty concerned about.
Armstrong: Well, we could certainly look at relocating that tot lot, if that's the desire of
this Commission.
Marshall: That's just one thing that concerns me there. I have some other questions for
staff for later. Thank you.
Moe: Any other commissioners have any questions for Mr. Armstrong? Okay. Thank
you very much.
Armstrong: Thank you.
Moe: Mr. Marshall, you said you had a couple questions for staff?
Marshall: I do. Is there -- and I tried to find it in the Comprehensive Plan, but I believe
there was some type of ordinance or something somewhere about the berm size
against the major arterials and collectors and the like and especially considering 20-26
had some very large berm requirements and I can't seem to locate that anywhere. Is
there --
Hood: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Marshall, I can sure look that up. I know we have
certain noise mitigation things along state highways. I'll look at along arterial streets
and see what we have. I can recall some fencing standards along arterials and a
maximum berm and slope height. I'll try to find what those are and give you those
numbers here.
Marshall: My thought being that three to five seemed to be fairly low up against Eagle is
-- all right. Thank you.
Moe: Any others? Okay. Well, Commissioners, comments you'd like to make before
we close the Public Hearing or --
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March 6, 2008
Page 25 of 80
O'Brien: I have a question, Mr. Chairman.
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: --of staff. Caleb, so I -- I'd like to go through the chronology of events of the
purchase of this property. It seems like the very first time that they tried to obtain
approval for some homes it was like 264, something like that, and I believe it was for
this area right in here. And it was denied. And, then, I think it was after that that they
purchased in Castle Rock and the remaining acres that we have before us today. At
what point do they -- are they granted grandfather rights to the Comprehensive Plan
that was basically put before us before the one that we currently have approved? Is
there something there that -- did they start over again at some point after that first one
was denied a couple years ago or are they still -- it just seems like there is a conflict
between the old Comprehensive Plan and the one we have now or the old designation.
Hood: Mr. Chair, Commissioner O'Brien, I think I follow you. This area has changed.
I think it was 2006 that the designation was changed on the future land use map to what
you see today and it was just recently acted on by the Council mid February and., then,
they just approved the resolution this week. You're not grandfathered in with any of
your designations. Those are subject to change. When you come into apply for
annexation or preliminary plat or conditional use permit or anything you want to do on
your property, the Comp Plan map that's in effect at that time of submittal is the one that
-- whatever you're trying to do is reviewed against. So, I don't know all of the
chronology of when things were sold -- bought and sold and I could probably find the
last designation on this property before the one that you're looking at there, but it really
isn't relevant to what's going on today. I'm not quite sure if that's what you're asking or
not.
O'Brien: Yeah. My concern was -- I thought we had approved this last year, but if you
say it just went before Council recently, then, I guess we have to go according to this
plan here now.
Hood: And maybe I should clarify a little bit more. The Commission did forward on a
recommendation to the Council on south Meridian last year. It just how made it through
the City Council in February. So, there were was some lag time since when you saw
that in November to when they approved it in February.
O'Brien: Okay. Thank you.
Marshall: Chairman Moe, I did have one more question for the applicant.
Moe: Okay. Mr. Marshall. Mr. Armstrong would you, please, come back up?
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 26 of 80
Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair, while he's on his way up, can I -- I just want to ask just a
quick question of Caleb. This still has the step up request in it, though; correct? In the
density on the R-8 side or that -- we are removing that now?
Hood: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Newton-Huckabay, I believe that they had a slide in
their presentation that show that they were right at 2.98 I think was the number in the
low density. I don't remember what the medium was. But it goes up to eight. So, I
think they are probably below eight. And that line that's on here isn't an exact line. You
couldn't go out on the ground and figure out exactly where that line is. But it looks like
that's how we made the -- in the staff report a recommendation for approval. It appears
that it is within the guidelines of this density.
Newton-Huckabay: I hadn't seen it, but, then, I didn't before it had a stub up, so -- okay.
Thank you.
Moe: Just go right ahead., Mr. Marshall.
Marshall: Thank you. I -- about the higher density there in the center, on your
application it says -- and I was trying to understand how the -- could we get the slide up
that shows the plan there? In this area right in here. Okay. It states some minor
modifications to the underlying Zoning designation are necessary. Okay. Here we go.
This easement allows the neighboring property owner to the west to use, maintain, and
benefit the westerly five feet of their neighbor to the south's property. Okay. I'm
assuming you're saying the neighbor to the east's property, because you're looking at
east-west. So, this guy's going to take the five foot -- the guy to the east's five foot.
Okay. So, as I'm looking at this, you have a plot plan here for a corner lot within that
area that shows the house on the corner directly up against the east property line and it
shows the 16 feet or so -- 15, 16 foot side yards. But when we get to the corner, the
very end down here, the last guy is going to be on that property line or the guy on this
side's going to be on the property line. One side or the other, depending how we
interpret this -- somebody's not going to have a side yard or an extra five feet. I'm not
sure how that works.
Armstrong: Can we have the slide of that -- those Village units, the site plan? That will
explain that. Okay. I think this is what you're talking about. What happens here is the
property line for this property sets off five feet. This area right along in here. And, then,
this area over here -- right at this point where that garage is, it's about 20 some odd feet
wide at this area here. It's around 12 to 16 feet. What happens is the next house sets
off five feet from this property line --
.Marshall: Which would be this five foot on the next site; right.
Armstrong: On the next site. So, what happens is there is a use and benefit agreement
that this owner gets to use this ground and this wall here there wouldn't be any low
windows. There could be some high windows in there, but, basically, this owner here
would have the use and benefit of that entire side yard. Therefore, their yard gets much
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 27 of 80
larger on that side of the house. Okay. Now, go to the corner. I think we have a corner
lot. '
Marshall: I got one on my page 22 here.
Armstrong: Let's see. Okay. I'll look on the staff report here and show you. Page 22?
Marshall: Yeah. Well, you're -- yeah. Twenty-two. It shows that house entirely on the
west side, which would be, essentially, right along that boundary line, leaving five feet
between house and house. And the property -- the lot size is exactly the same on the
far west, not giving any room to move that out.
Armstrong: Yeah. I don't have the -- that in front of me, I guess. Let's go back to that
site plan. I think -- I think it will explain it, because there is a lot of right of way that is
along there. Right along here at the ends is all these blocks. There is additional space
at the ends of -- of these lots. So, you can flip flop the floor plans in those areas and
still end up with the same usable amount of area, so there is excess area at the ends of
ail of those lots..
Marshall: I'm not seeing that on here. The setback and things like that shows that right
up against that property line and --
Armstrong: Yeah. What you see in this particular case is the ten feet, plus you have a
use and benefit of this additional land out to this side here.
Marshall: So, to get that -- but you only have five feet between that and the house to
the east, so if you're going to push that house -- so, you have the space between those
houses, you have got to push that house out to the right of way.
Armstrong: Yeah. In this case those houses would be flip flopped on the side, so you
always end up with the 16 feet. No matter which block you're in, you will always end up
with that 15 to 16 feet always.
Marshall: I'm not sure I understand how you're going to flip flop that, but okay.
Armstrong: It's just that this is drawn on the opposite end., if all the units were flipped
the other way.
Marshall: It shows it on the east end. Okay.
Armstrong: No. I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that the -- if you took
that last site plan and flip flopped it, then, it would all make sense to you.
Marshall: Okay.
Meridian Planning 8 Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 28 of 80
Armstrong.: And that's how we plan on laying them out. And that's -- that's how we do
it. We want everybody to have side yards. We won't be able to sell them if they only
had a five foot side yard..
Marshall: See, if you flip the other one I see you got the other problem -- the problem
on the far end of the block. The lots on the two ends, according to the preliminary plat,
are actually smaller than the lots in between., simply because you cut the corners off.
So, the same size lot. Now, that means, yes, you have got the right of way, but to get
the space between that last house and the next house next to it, you got to push that
house out to the right of way.
Armstrong: No.
Marshall: Okay. That's all I had..
Moe: Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: Yeah.. A question. I read somewhere in the material -- I can't find it at the
moment -- but regarding the -- the installation of landscaping by the homeowner. I read
somewhere it was 30 days after signing, not at the day of signing. Is that -- do you
remember that or not? I couldn't find it --
Armstrong: No. We committed to -- that landscape has to be in at closing. They can't
close on their house unless it's in. Yeah. The additional. If they choose to put in
additional., they have 30 days.
O'Brien: I thought that was part of the plan that they had to put at least one tree and
several shrubs within -- is that true?
Armstrong: We -- that's true. We put in the sod and the sprinkling system.
O'Brien: Okay. And that will be done by the day of closing.
Armstrong: Yes.
O'Brien: Okay. I got it. Thank you.
Armstrong: Okay. Does that make sense?
Moe: Any other questions, Commissioners?
Armstrong: Thank you.
Moe: Commissioner Rohm, do you have any comments?
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 29 of 80
Rohm: I think we have pretty well hashed everything over and I think we could probably
close the Public Hearing at this time and, then, we can have our final discussion
amongst Commission and move forward from there.
Moe: Does that mean that you're planning to do that?
Rohm: I will, sir. At this time I'd like to make a motion to close the Public Hearing on AZ
07-016, PP 07-020, and PUD 07-001.
Marshall: Second.
Moe: Thank you. It has been moved and seconded to close the public hearings on AZ
07-016, PP 07-020, and PUD 07-001. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same sign?
That motion carries.
MOTION CARRfED: ALL AYES.
Moe: Mr. Rohm, now do you have any comments?
Rohm: I do. And., first of all, I want to thank each of you for your testimonies tonight
and -- and I think the developers have tried very hard to at least take your concerns into
consideration at every juncture. The -- the significant issue has always been, to me, in
any development is this road issue and throughout Ada County and specifically in the
City of Meridian all this development occurs and we still have an infrastructure that is
inferior. The fact of the matter is -- is if -- in my opinion, is if we stopped development,
infrastructure improvements would also stop. It's not going to -- until we have a
developed mile, that mile is not going to be addressed by Ada County Highway District.
So, the argument that the infrastructure is not there to handle the additional lots -- it may
be valid, but it isn't ever going to change under our existing system of government that
we have in this state of Idaho. I travel a lot to Arizona. Igo down to Phoenix, oh,
probably a month a year and it's amazing how they will build out a hundred percent of
the infrastructure maybe ten miles out from the city and they have five lane roads going
north, south, east, west and no development. I don't have a clue how they do that, but I
mean -- but we don't have that available to us here. And albeit that I -- I agree with
everybody that spoke to the infrastructure, the roadway, I personally don't think that it's
ever going to change until our state government changes the way funding occurs or
impact fees are collected or any number of different venues. But roadways I just don't
believe are ever going to come ahead of development. So, that's my little speech on
roadways. The second comment that I have is the Hubble development versus a
subdivision of custom homes. I have been driving around this community for a good
number of years and, you know what, there are vacancies in every single subdivision
and there are for rent signs even in subdivisions down in Eagle that are supposed to be
the high end subdivisions and the fact of the matter is -- is, again, from my perspective,
is these constructions of homes that are available to the populous that occupy the jobs
in our community, they are essential. If you don't have developments like this, I'm not
sure where people reside. So, I actually applaud them for their considerations for the
Meridian Planning & zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 30 of 80
parkways, the open spaces, and the development as a whole. So, that speaks to that.
The fact that this property is outside of our current area of impact, I think staff spoke to
that, that it is adjacent to property that has currently been annexed and it has always
been the city's prerogative to extend annexation to adjacent properties and I think that
this project certainly falls within that provision. The last thing I wanted to speak to is the
-- the design guidelines for the structures themselves and it is my opinion that we have
a very good building code in the state of Idaho that requires that every structure that's
built be built to minimum standards that are in the best interest of the homeowner
themselves, whereas they have proper insulation levels, proper wiring schemes, proper
heating and' air conditioning and duct work, all of that stuff that is provided for in state
code under the building codes or the building permits would not be issued in the first
place. So, I think that from my perspective, the fact that it is one developer versus
another carries no weight. And that's the end of my talk. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you, Mr. Rohm. Mr. O'Brien, would you have any comments?
O'Brien: I'll defer for a few minutes, please.
Moe: Okay. Mr. Marshall.
Marshall: Well, to be honest, I really like the cooing idea. I have seen in other states
where it works quite well. I haven't seen any around here. But it is a very nice idea in
creating an attractive streetscape. I like all the open space. I like the trails. I think we
definitely have a need for a less expensive area -- area where you can buy houses that
are a little more affordable, whereas the price of land has gone through the roof, for a lot
of people that becomes a very difficult purchase and this might be an option for a lot
people. I am concerned about the roadways. That is a concern of mine. I feel that this
area was zoned low and medium density, because we know it's on the outskirts and
more of our infrastructure is in towards -- and we are trying to get the denser -- .higher
density areas in towards the traffic areas, the areas where we have infrastructure to
handle that traffic. I have to admit it's not a high density, but I am concerned -- I see
there is a lot development in that area -- along that area going out that way that appears
to be going medium density and that could put a lot of strain on that roadway. I mean to
those ends I like the development itself. I do like the fact that there is a 50 foot or 40
foot elevation difference between the Black Rock and the Castle Rock to alleviate some
issues there. I like the park and the ability to have that up against the hillside there.
don't like the tot lot next to the irrigation lateral. I guess those are my -- my thoughts
right now.
Moe: Thank you, Mr. Marshall. Commissioner Newton-Huckabay.
Newton-Huckabay: Chair, Members of the Commission,
comments on the first -- the first design that the
recommendations that we made to City Council for th
I was reviewing back over my
y had and based on the
e reason that we denied this
nted to see the density moved
on the exterior of the project
applicant in the first place, one of them being that we wa
into the interior of the project, I wanted to see larger lots
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 31 of 80
and, then, the City Council wanted the issue with Eagle and Victory Road addressed,
maintenance considerations for the coved areas and., then, a reconsideration with the
new comprehensive -- south Meridian comprehensive plan., as well as a stub on the --
on the car itself -- Carlyle Way to Ten Mile Creek. That said that the applicant has
addressed all of those issues that have been sent before us. They have moved the
density more into the interior of the project. They have moved the park. They have
provided some funds to -- for the Victory and Eagle Road intersection, which I, myself,
was extremely disappointed when that was taken out of the plan that was suppose to
start this year I thought, so hopefully that will push that back over the edge. They are
providing two other stop lights at busy intersections, which I think is -- you know, off-site
improvements are always nice to help move those -- that infrastructure along, given the
current state -- the way that we handle infrastructure here in the city. I also like the cove
concept. I think that -- my only concerns with that is I cannot visualize exactly how the
driveways would look across that, but on paper I like the idea. And it does meet the
Comp Plan for south Meridian. It didn't before and it does fall with the Comp Plan for
south Meridian now. So, those are the positive things or -- depending upon which side
of the issue you stand on. We do have the overriding issue; neighbors are very much
against having this development so near their homes. There have been lots of recent
Comp Plan changes and as a resident in south Meridian it's probably very difficult to
keep up with all those and we have been working on that Comp Plan in front of us for
the last couple years, I believe we have seen multiple times, so I know that's very -- a
very .high frustration, especially if you may have purchased a property in the last 18
months. It is a dense project. But, again, it does meet the plan. The fact that they are
Hubble Homes is a huge concern for neighbors, but, again, they do meet a market need
for the mainly service based employment area. My biggest hesitation on this
development is that is so large and given the market the way it is today, anytime we
have a large development come through -- this is not going to build out in 18 months.
This is going to build out in five to 15 years, given the current market that we have. It's
always very hard to plan a subdivision that isn't going to build out for 15 years and know
how the market is going to stand. So that is my biggest concern anytime we are
approving residential right now, as we have a lot of residential approved around there
and is the market going to bear this development five years from now or are we going to
have to come in and do .it again? Is it going to get denser, so -- but Ithink -- I don't
really have any other comments, really.
Moe: Okay. Thank you very much. I'm not going to belabor the evening any -- too
much .more. In regard to comments between Commissioner Newton-Huckabay and Mr.
Rohm, a lot of my same sentiments -- this does meet the Comp Plan at the present time
and there are still a couple things that I am still a little bit unsure on and one being the --
the South Carlyle Way in regards to a stub to the east. The applicant is saying that they
would grant a 42 inch -- 42 foot wide easement through there, but at the same point if
that property, then, developed they would have to come back in and construct back into
this property to make that work within that easement. I would rather, quite frankly, like
to see them at least come to the property line, you know, this sign -- you know, and stop
at that point, so that it's developed up to that point. I realize they don't want to put the
bridge in is what I'm gathering is a big point here. But I'd rather at least see the
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 32 of 80
development come to that point with the street going through to that point before a
bridge would be built.
Newton-Huckabay: To the canal?
Moe: Pardon me?
Newton-Huckabay: A road to the canal?
Moe: Yeah. You know, basically, right in here, bring it to that point. The other thing --
and the one thing that I have not seen toinight -- do we have a,drawing on the phasing
plan for this project?
Hood.: Mr. Chair, I didn't include that in the slides. I have a hard copy in the file, I can
probably try to find that, but didn't -- I didn't make a slide. I didn't see it in the applicant's
presentation.
Moe: Okay. Well, I guess what I -- basically I would like to just kind of verify a little bit,
as I understand phase one is anticipated to be in this area right here, whereas this area
here -- I think this is like area three.. But Ijust -- I'm a little bit concerned with, you know,
they go ahead and may get started in area one and, then, it's -- how long is it going to
take to get to this --
Newton-Huckabay: (Inaudible).
Moe: Well, that's my concern. And, then, we haven't really done much for this entire
development, especially for these people up here., if this is all that's being developed.
And so I guess I'd kind of like to get a little bit better handle on the phasing plan and see
what could happen as far as trying to do a little bit more of the work in this area before
we start just targeting one spot right there. That's just an opinion. I saw that in our --
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah.. I looked at it this afternoon, too.
Moe: I did, too, and I can't find it since.
Newton-Huckabay: Uh-huh.
Moe: Would anyone be opposed if I -- if we reopened the Public Hearing to talk to the
applicant and he could address that for us?
Rohm: I think that would be appropriate.
Newton-Huckabay: Oh, there it is.
Moe: Never mind. We won't have to do that. Okay.
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 33 of 80
Newton-Huckabay: It's on page 9 -- Exhibit B, page 9, of the staff report phasing plan.
Phase one will enter in here and comes up to -- it looks like it comes to here, then,
crosses over here, down here, through here and down. So, phase one right in this area
here. So, it's the alley loaded --
Moe: Southeast, then?
Newton-Huckabay: Yeah. The southeast corner. And, then, phase two would cover
this area here. Phase three would incorporate the park, so that connect comes -- it
looks like it comes up around here like that. And, then, phase four is right about this
middle area here. Then., phase five takes up -- I guess this was, I think, the Legends in
here. And six was up in this area here. And seven this area here. And, then, eight
was this real low density stuff here.
Moe: Okay.
Newton-Huckabay: So, we have eight phases starting here, working its way up around
this way, filling out up through here and, then, wrapping around here. And, then,
coming back and filling this in later.
Moe: I hadn't heard that -- no other comments from the Commissioners, so when you
look through that, I assume, then, that no one had any problems with the phasing.
Newton-Huckabay: Well, if it all fell apart, this would be the most likely to come back in
for redevelopment, as would the -- so, the perimeter would be the most likely to come
back in for redevelopment on the north side.
Moe: Thank you, Commissioner, for going through that for me. I had no other
comment, so Mr. O'Brien.
O'Brien: Yes. I'll try to keep it short. I agree with the rest of the Commissioners on the
layout. I really like the location of the park and the increased size and the frontage, et
cetera. The -- but I have a concern of the traffic within the subdivision itself at one point.
It seems to me, especially with -- with the amount of traffic that this area here will
generate, versus this and versus that, it's going to be a -- pretty much of a bottleneck
here, especially when the school goes in and these stubs go off to Amity, it's going to be
an issue. And could we have the overhead of Google, please? So, I'm concerned with
-- my concerns really go along with the owner of this property in here and the amount of
time it takes now with current traffic as it is and the bottleneck that it creates, especially
putting signals here, signals here and, then, another one at Victory and Eagle, it's going
to put a considerable load on Locust Grove and it's not slated for any improvements
until late 2020. This is a very narrow roadway and it has some swales, if you will, along
there that sometimes can be dangerous, because people speed along there, as well as
speeding along Lake Hazel and Eagle Road as much as they can. So, those are
concerns about the amount of traffic that's going to generate by this -- by this plan. I
also have a concern with moving what I call the urbanite line, changing urban areas
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 34 of 80
closer to Overland Road and trying to, basically, compress the transition between
Meridian City and Kuna by using this -- this area as -- as an urban center where what I
heard from the community is they certainly would like to keep it as rural possible and I
heard more negatives about this than I heard positive, so that concerns me that, you
know, are we really doing the community a service and the City of Meridian along with
it. What is the right thing to do, what is not? So, I have those things in the back of my
mind I'm concerned with. Density, we have to follow the guidelines. I think they did a
good job in trying to work out those issues. I'm still concerned about the amount of
density that it will create in this area, but, again, it follows the guidelines. And that's
what they are, they are guidelines. I think that when I first came into this position one of
the things the -- that I was informed of is that it may be the right -- it may be they look to
be the right thing to do, it meets all of the goals that -- it satisfies the development code,
but is it the right thing to do and that's what bothers me so much. Is this the right thing
for this area. It's very unique in that it has a nice area here that rises up and looking
down over that valley it's pretty nice. And so I'm concerned with those kind of things
turning it into an urban parking lot and lessening the transition between our city and
Boise and Kuna. So, I'm going with that as my major concerns, the traffic, the rural -- or
urbanization of it and the infrastructure of the traffic. So, that's all I have to say about
that. Thank you.
Moe: Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.
Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair?
Moe: Commissioner Newton-Huckabay.
Newton-Huckabay: I have a question of Commissioner O'Brien. Well, if we have a
development that meets the Comprehensive Plan and the density is within that
Comprehensive Plan guideline, what is our -- what is your -- our basis as a Commission
-- what is acceptable in there? Something substandard from the Comprehensive Plan,
which we have as being an acceptable density on the Comprehensive Plan? I mean I --
forthe most part I agree with what you're saying, I have some issues about whether or
not this is the .right development for this area., but if it cannot be -- if it doesn't meet the
spirit of the Comprehensive Plan, but yet it meets the guidelines of the Comprehensive
Plan, what is the -- what's the alternative for somebody to develop this property?
O'Brien: I agree with you all the way. I -- I don't know. We need all those criteria, but
sometimes it's just down in your gut and my gut feels like this is just the not right -- it's
just not the right fit and I think the community -- every one of the members that I have
heard, including people I have talked with at the neighborhood meetings, say they want
to have us maintain a rural atmosphere and as much open space as they can, thinking
at the time it was already too late to go through that exercise to try to change the
Comprehensive Plan, because it's already -- it was already said and done that it's going
to be a -- what we are getting. And so it's a moot point. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 35 of 80
Newton-Huckabay: Would it make a difference if they were all Kastera Homes instead
of Hubble Homes?
O'Brien: I have no idea what -- what they are. I just think that the spirit of the
community was that they'd like to see it more open space and there is nothing they can
do about that. They agree they think it was R-4, but it's really compressed I think of
spaces that they thought it would not be.
Newton-Huckabay: Are you talking just like specific lot size?
O'Brien: Well, yeah, the lot sizes are very, very small. I mean -- if you will. I'm against
row houses. I think that's an eye sore. It's just too compressed, too condensed, and
especially right next to that entrance to Eagle Road when you get a lot of people going
out of there between 6:00 and 8:00 o'clock in the morning you're going to have a
backup there right at the intersection of Taconic Drive. These things just don't jell with
me very well. We are just asking for problems and I can't put a nail on one particular
one, but you add them all together and they say this big red flag.
Newton-Huckabay: Okay. Thank you.
Moe: Well, thank you for your comment, Mr. O'Brien. Do we have anyone getting close
to making a motion?
Rohm: I --
Moe: Before we go -- I do want to make sure that we all understand that -- and, trust
me, I'm not asking to sway a vote one way or the other, but if, in fact, a motion does
come that is for a denial and whatnot, we will -- this Commission has in the past been
directed that if, in fact, we do go with a denial, basically, we would like to be able to
direct the applicant as to what they could do in order for us to possibly look at it in a
different vein, just like we did the first time they came through with this. So, having said
that, the maker of the motion, the other thing I want to make sure that we go through is
would you, please, add the 42 foot easement that they are willing to grant at South
Carlyle Way, the stub, if, in fact, that's all we do. Yes, Mr. Marshall.
Marshall: And a fence up against --
Moe: Mr. Cantrell's property I believe it was.
Marshall: Yes. Yes. It was Don Cantrell. Yes.
Newton-Huckabay: Mr. Chair?
Moe: Yes.
Meridian Planning & Zoning
March 6, 2008
Page 36 of 80
Newton-Huckabay: Commissioner Marshall also had suggested moving the tot lot away
from the water feature.
Moe: Yes. That is correct. I believe that would be a great idea.
Rohm: Forty-two foot easement along Carlyle Way. Move the tot lot. What was the
third one?
Marshall: Fencing against Mr. Carlyle's -- Mr. Cantrell's --
Rohm: Okay. Mr. Chairman?
Moe: Mr. Rohm.
Rohm: I'd like to make a motion to forward onto City Council recommending approval of
AZ 07-016, PP 07-020, and PUD 07-001, to include the staff report with the following
modifications: That the developer provide a 42 foot easement along the Carlyle Way
as was in discussion. Work with staff to relocate the tot lot within the subdivision. And,
three, place a fence along the Don Carlyle -- Don Cantrell property. End of motion.
Moe: Do I have a second?
Marshall: I'll second.
Moe: Okay. It has been moved and seconded to send onto City Council approving of
AZ 07-016, PP 07-020, and PUD 07-001. All those in favor say aye. Opposed same
sign? That would be a three to two approval. That motion carries.
MOTION CARRIED: THREE AYES. TWO NAYS.
Moe: It's about ten after 9:00. We usually take a break at 9:00 o'clock. We will adjourn
and come back at 25 after the hour.
(Recess.)
Item 7: Public Hearing: AZ 08-003 Request for Annexation and Zoning of
12.06 acres from RUT to R-40 (10.56 acres) and C-C (1.15 acres) zones
for Regencv at River Valley (REVISED) by Mason & Stanfield - 2500 N.
Eagle Road:
Item 8: Public Hearing: CUP 08-004 Request for Conditional Use Permit for a
multi-family development in a proposed R-40 zoning district for Regencv
at River Valley by Mason & Stanfield - 2500 North Eagle Road:
Moe: All right. At this time I'd like to reopen the P&Z hearing for this evening and open
the Public Hearing for AZ 08-003, request for annexation and zoning of Regency at